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Episode #107 - Carl Wilkens, Speaker and Educator on the Rwandan Genocide — Transcript

by Stupid Questions with Seth Hill · 20,086 words · 2,666 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:01how's it going everyone and welcome back
0:02to another edition of the stupid
0:03questions podcast today is a very
0:05special episode for me because the
0:06person I will be interviewing is Carl
0:08Wilkins he is a family member and he is
0:12also the only American to have stayed in
0:16Rwanda during the Rwanda genocide of
0:191994 where hundreds of thousands and is
0:22even speculated that millions of people
0:24were slaughtered and he has obviously
0:26for many reasons um a very compelling
0:29story and we Di into a number of
0:31different topics um which I'm sure is no
0:33shock to you guys but I hope that this
0:35is just a really good episode if you are
0:37looking to Jump Ahead uh to hear
0:39specifically more about kind of the the
0:42context in story for the Rwanda genocide
0:44and how he experienced it um from day
0:46one you can jump through literally to
0:48about an hour um 59 minutes after the
0:51intro and uh you can do that prior to
0:54that we do talk about a lot of really
0:56good things obviously drawing a lot of
0:57the context for who Carl is and the
0:59person he has become over many years um
1:02the whole conversation is about 2 hours
1:04long and I loved every minute of it um I
1:07teared up and cried actually at one
1:09point um for again probably obvious
1:12reasons but I won't say too much just
1:14hope you guys really enjoy it and again
1:16thank you so much for being here here is
1:18Carl
1:21Wilkins well first off um I guess I have
1:25already introduced people to you um in
1:28an intro so I won't go into to all of
1:30that per se but I do want to thank you
1:32uh for taking the time to jump on here
1:35um I guess for a little bit more context
1:37for people listening Carl is my I guess
1:42we call you Uncle Carl by Blood to my
1:45wife you are second cousin I believe her
1:49dad's my cousin yes so um I've gotten to
1:52know you over the years and spend lots
1:55of time um and it's been an honor and
1:56obviously have a very unique story so
1:58we're going to get to jump into some of
2:00that stuff um but I I typically have
2:03people on who are um in the endurance
2:06world or business World um sometimes in
2:09the music world because those are like
2:10really Peak my interest but with you um
2:14it's all three it's all three yeah it
2:16like it builds them all into one thing
2:19no the the mindset I think that you
2:21operate on um you know as I Was
2:24preparing for this and and and writing
2:26out just a few descriptor words to kind
2:28of like really open up my brain to get
2:29thinking like how would I describe Carl
2:32was this mindset that you adapt or you
2:35have adapted and and molded and and
2:38changed and morphed over the years that
2:40seems to
2:41increasingly approach just I would say
2:44like the best word to descri describe it
2:46is Joy like you and the way that you
2:49interact with people gives off a lot of
2:52that joy that inner child I think that
2:54most of us lose I uh I take a lot of um
2:59Pride and and happiness and seeing like
3:01you exemplify that because I'm a pretty
3:03big cut up myself so yeah so for those
3:05who don't know Carl is related to me now
3:08but I'm so happy to have you on and
3:09thank you for making the time thanks
3:11growing up is overrated it is
3:14overrated so I I guess the first
3:18question I do want to ask you um you are
3:21first of all how old are
3:23you as of yesterday 67 oh my goodness
3:27happy birthday I can't believe I didn't
3:29all you're anything you send stuff on my
3:31birth I was sitting around all day
3:32waiting for your phone went to bed
3:35really sad yeah I would too oh man I'm
3:37so sorry well happy late birthday 67
3:39that's a that's a great that's a great
3:41age man I'm G find out I'm kind of
3:44excited yeah so for me like I just
3:47turned 32 I think the next big turning
3:49point for me is 40 for you does do do
3:52you have any more of this like would you
3:54look forward and you look back do you
3:56have any more of those
3:59I guess next blocks of seasons of life
4:01that you kind of see yourself passing
4:04into well this last summer I did declare
4:08myself semi-retired okay I think I did
4:10that so that um I would just kind of
4:14just check out this mindset of what does
4:17retired be and I mean I didn't have a
4:20lot of appointments which I don't often
4:22in the summer typically every summer I
4:24take teachers to Rwanda I didn't do that
4:26this summer I went to Rwanda earlier in
4:29May this year but um and I'm just back
4:33home after about three weeks on the road
4:36in schools from Vancouver Canada to
4:38Phoenix to Long Island to Seattle to to
4:42Denver and so you know it it does might
4:44not look like semi-retired but in my
4:47head in my head uh I'm just giving
4:50myself permission to really do what is
4:55at hand what is you know to me rewarding
5:00and useful and necessary um but without
5:04without kind of thinking about you know
5:06a full Work Week type of a thing or
5:08better make up time when I miss time
5:10here or that just kind of flowing a
5:13little easier I guess I would say yeah
5:15good answer so the question I usually
5:18ask people when that when I have them on
5:19the first time um is this question so I
5:23would ask you who is Carl and I think
5:26that that really is going to dive into
5:29kind of what you shared to me a little
5:30bit ago uh that you wrote an essay so
5:32I'm going to ask that question and I
5:34feel like it'll probably come out but to
5:36you and all you've done everywhere
5:38you've been who is
5:41Carl
5:43well first off you know I um you often
5:47think about roots and I was a kid who
5:49was just really really surrounded by
5:52love two older brothers who sometimes
5:54beat the love into me um but it was
5:57nonetheless love there my parents and
6:01been really fortunate in high school to
6:03fall in love with this gorgeous woman
6:05who's put up with me for 43 years now
6:09she was a junior and I was a senior and
6:11so yeah I'm a son and a brother and a
6:14husband and and then three kids and and
6:18two of them married now and two
6:20grandkids so probably my favorite
6:22identity right now is baa which is what
6:25my grandsons call
6:27me yeah that's a beautiful that's one
6:30thing to me when so I've been married
6:32now to Ashley for 7 and A2 years and we
6:35dated for I don't know two and some
6:37change if you're including the
6:39engagement so I've gotten to experience
6:41your family um and you know when we were
6:44dating and we broke up there for all of
6:4610 days s days not talking I I really
6:50lamented and and mourned the fact that I
6:52would be losing her but I I also really
6:54mourn the fact that I I felt like I was
6:56losing your guys' family because there's
6:59there's about that you guys have created
7:01um just through the
7:04Bears that is super special so talk to
7:07me a little bit about that because I
7:08think it's something that not many
7:09people have the ability to
7:12experience well thanks thanks for those
7:14kind words um you know I as I think back
7:19about it and kids for example we'll talk
7:22probably a little more about Rwanda
7:23later but students are often asking me
7:26you know why did you stay in Rwanda you
7:28know with the in the middle of a
7:30genocide not your country not your
7:32language those types of things and my
7:34mind often always goes back to my mom
7:37and dad um it goes back to a house full
7:42of people much of the time you know
7:45whether it was the weekend and we lived
7:46in the country and people would just
7:48kind of drive out and drop in you know
7:50back in the day there you didn't you
7:51didn't call ahead you just dropped in
7:53and and um or whether it was a couple of
7:56twins who lost their parents at 16 and
7:59came to live in our house so I really um
8:02found in in you know grew up with that
8:06idea that your home home is Central home
8:09is safe home is open home is um is a
8:14refuge in so many ways and so I don't
8:17know how to how to Express gratitude to
8:19my folks for doing that and it's
8:21interesting because you know as you look
8:22at your grandparents too you see an
8:24interesting combination as you become an
8:27adult of who your parents are you know I
8:30think about my mom's parents and my
8:31dad's parents and and just different
8:34strengths that they had and also
8:36different challenges and um man you just
8:39always want better for your kids and uh
8:43my parents really exemplified that to me
8:45and in in a lot of ways and and you want
8:48you know not like your kids to follow in
8:50your shoes or something kind of corny
8:52like that but but the idea that they can
8:56be free to you know really explore
8:59and um there's no limits um and so we
9:05have uh our three kids all have have a
9:07lot of fun with all three of them um but
9:09I was doing projects with with Lisa our
9:12daughter recently when I'm down at her
9:15house and there's nothing that that girl
9:17in fact I look at all three of them sea
9:19or Mindy there's nothing they won't take
9:20on and I love that can do Spirit I think
9:23that was that was a real gift and um and
9:28uh man pre that you're right A lot of
9:30people don't have so one thing I really
9:33uh took away from the family continue to
9:36draw on and inspired by is um like you
9:40obviously my father-in-law Daryl um pop
9:43up when he was around that you know for
9:45most people know my story to the level
9:47like knowing that I lost my dad when I
9:49was 16 so like there's this you know as
9:51I've gotten older even to this day like
9:53I I really am drawn in to the male
9:57figure head like leaders people who I
9:58would deem or like are good and
9:59respectable so that was such a huge
10:01thing for me to be able to connect with
10:04each and every each and every one of you
10:06guys individually um to like draw on you
10:10know what you're talking about building
10:11a home that is safe and then you know I
10:14think each one of you hold these
10:16different levels
10:17of you have your own your own seasoning
10:21of love I I think each one knows how to
10:24love and their best ability and the way
10:26that like you're expressing you know
10:27with your kids like there's no limits I
10:29think you you mean is like there's no
10:31limits to what they can do right or
10:34wrong that you will still love them with
10:35the same intensity and to give them that
10:38um to give them that belief where they
10:40feel like empowered to go out and try
10:42things is something that I think a lot
10:44of people miss out on so I like I really
10:47admire that like it's a that's not an
10:49easy thing to to adopt I don't feel
10:52like no no it's not and a lot of times
10:54you get people telling you what you
10:56can't do all the time instead of you
10:58know what you can to and and uh having
11:01somebody who will be there to support
11:03you be kind of a safety net is a huge
11:06huge gift yeah so like you guys have
11:10always been since I've been involved in
11:12the family like a a level of mentor to
11:14me so but for you growing up obviously
11:16your father um you know maybe some aunts
11:19and uncles but and it doesn't even have
11:20to be family but who were the people who
11:23really spoke to the formation of who
11:25Carl would become and the decisions that
11:28he would make
11:33ah good question good question it is you
11:36know there is really nobody who comes
11:40close to my dad um in that area in terms
11:44of influence and watching him you know
11:47he I remember as I was in my teen years
11:50um seeing he was working um for the
11:53church in finance and seeing some stuff
11:56that just wasn't right going on in the
11:58church this was the Adventist Church and
12:01um I and I remember saying to him you
12:04know that's messed up you know what what
12:07what do you why are you still involved
12:10or stuff like that you know and as a
12:12teenager you're still kind of pretty
12:15binary and you're thinking it's either
12:17this or that you don't really have the
12:18nuances and stuff but um always remember
12:22he said you know I really think I can
12:23work for change better from within than
12:25from without and um you know you get you
12:29get kind of life lessons like that you
12:32know he used to say what you're not up
12:33on you're down on you know and so you
12:35recognize when you're down on something
12:37maybe I need to learn more about this
12:39maybe I am down on it because I'm not up
12:41on what what really is you know going on
12:44there and um and you know being able to
12:48go out on camping trips and you know
12:51just exploring and we lived in the
12:53country and you know we had little creek
12:56and we go build dams in the creek and
12:58full tree houses and so all those things
13:01the environment that my parents provided
13:03was huge and I would say you know next
13:07kind of mentors after that so to speak I
13:09mean there were wonderful um aunts and
13:12uncles and and uh you know older cousins
13:15and stuff but I really think about
13:17reading I I was I was very much I love
13:21ever since I remember second grade is
13:23when I really started to burrow in deep
13:25and just go sit somewhere in a corner
13:27and have a book and so that opportunity
13:31to travel through Reading and enter into
13:33people's lives and Journeys really
13:35fascinated by things like the Civil
13:38Rights Movement I remember reading a
13:40book called black like me a White
13:42journalist went from the north down
13:44south stained his skin darker shaved his
13:47head and tried to and effectively did in
13:50many ways pass as a person of color and
13:53in the 60s and what was it like like
13:55that so really being able to um kind of
13:59Journey with somebody through the
14:00Holocaust you know or the Underground
14:03Railroad and always too I was surrounded
14:05by Bible stories so whether it would be
14:08you know David and Goliath or it would
14:10be you know Queen Esther for such a time
14:12as this so all of these stories
14:16definitely I think reinforced the
14:19message that I got too from my folks
14:22which was that you can do something you
14:25know it's no matter what the situation
14:27is we can do something right here at
14:29hand with what's you know with where we
14:32find
14:33ourselves um I I I it's fun to have kind
14:37of a beginning of a story and 40 years
14:40later a later story and I think about
14:42different School teachers and one in
14:43particular was a third grade teacher who
14:46um you can't always put your thumb on
14:49something when you are in third grade as
14:52to you know this is a gift somebody gave
14:55me and you're you like you're in third
14:57grade and and they're just basically
14:59telling you you know that you're
15:00rambunctious and you're not you know
15:02you're not sitting still or stuff like
15:04that and yet um this lady U my third
15:09grade teacher called me like 40 years
15:11later when a documentary came out about
15:13the Rwandan Genocide against the tootsie
15:16this um came out on Frontline called
15:19ghost of Rwanda and she saw me in that
15:21film and she contacted me you know was
15:23like I don't know 40 years or something
15:25after third grade and um and and she
15:29says Carl I wasn't surprised that you
15:32stayed I mean I'm shocked to hear Miss
15:34Wilder I'm like you know you can't you
15:36know you can always call your you can't
15:38call your um Elementary School teachers
15:41anything but by the name you called them
15:43when you were a little kid and and I was
15:45shocked that she was calling me out of
15:47the blue but then when she said I wasn't
15:49surprised that you stayed I'm like no I
15:51was a pain in the neck in third grade
15:53you know I I I broke a Ural it was an
15:56accident but but you know I'm thinking
15:58if if you're going to remember or think
16:00about something you know you wouldn't be
16:02thinking about you know here's a kid who
16:04would stay in the middle of a genocide
16:07but I'm but I found in that later
16:09encounter with her and I've had more
16:10since then you know we reconnected H is
16:13just a belief in you that you know
16:17because I mean she said I had this this
16:19sense of justice or Injustice you know
16:21anger Injustice and stuff I'm like well
16:23what kid doesn't you know we all are
16:25like that's not fair that's not fair and
16:27it's often very
16:29you know self focused what's not fair
16:32that we're really f um focused on but
16:35somehow she saw Beyond some of that and
16:37I think that that is a gift you know to
16:40have people in your life who can see
16:42beyond the the you know breaking the
16:45Ural stories and stuff and really see
16:48potential that's there and I loved she
16:50just continued right on in that
16:52conversation from not only affirming
16:54what she believed about me but I want to
16:58meet your wife she says you know and and
17:00and once again she's she's like she has
17:03got to be an incredible woman and um so
17:07to be able to have people like ROM
17:09Wilder um who who I can look back and I
17:13didn't even know it at the time but they
17:15were building and instilling into me you
17:18know this idea of of compassion and
17:22empathy and you can make a difference
17:24and and seeing you know potential that
17:27we don't see in ourselves that's um yeah
17:30I'm sure there's a bunch more people
17:32like that and I'm still unaware of what
17:35they gave me I I think you hear hit on
17:37something that is that I've thought a
17:39lot about um in the past few years and
17:41like so we all have the ability to speak
17:44and we often say like Words cut and
17:46words can build up but at a very
17:48fundamental probably even scientific
17:50level the words that we say like can
17:52affect the brain chemistry and how we
17:54arrive to a place of decision and so
17:58like similarly when I was really young I
18:00this is less serious of an example but
18:03we were sitting in class this is the
18:05same year of 9/11 I remember the
18:06classroom and I remember we were all
18:08doing this sitting Indian style as we
18:11called it hitting our hands on our lap
18:13and in our hands and we were like doing
18:15a beat to something and we were saying
18:16some poem or something I don't even
18:18remember but I took the liberty to make
18:20everything that I could touch a piece of
18:22my drum set and you know everybody's
18:25kind of doing this and I'm like I'm
18:26making it up and going and she stopped
18:28everybody and she looked at me and she's
18:29like Seth you're going to be a drummer
18:30when you grow up and so what what I
18:32don't think she knew is my father was a
18:36very um successful drummer in like by
18:39any stretch of imagination especially
18:40when as a kid watching him do what he
18:42could do it would make me feel so good
18:43yeah but it was those kind of small
18:45things that have lived in my mind for
18:48eternity and like we have such an
18:50ability to just a small comment like
18:53that and it and it and it's with you for
18:55life yeah another interesting I'd like
18:58to hear your thoughts this cuz you you
19:00talked a little bit about um you know
19:02kids being binary and black and white
19:06and I think we all get to a point at
19:08least I did in my life when I was very
19:10vinant about the support of the black
19:13and white and I knew it was right and I
19:14knew it was wrong and I was going to be
19:15very vocal about it um but then like we
19:19come from you know a background a
19:20religious background where we where
19:23Jesus says like suffer the little
19:24children to come unto me and there's
19:26other examples where he says like you
19:27know if you would be like like this
19:29child in the way that they think and I
19:31think that has to do with like kind of
19:32the all-in
19:34mentality but as I've gotten older it is
19:37harder to be black and white on
19:39sometimes even the most fundamental
19:41things because we have experienced
19:43Nuance so like have you figured it out
19:47you know how to how to discern when when
19:51something should be black or
19:54white or not that's good that's good
19:57Seth um
20:00there's a guy I I listen to you know on
20:03YouTube or some podcast and actually I
20:06haven't read a lot of his work I've done
20:08more listening his name is Richard Roar
20:11Franciscan monk and um he talks about
20:16something to the effect of an addiction
20:18to
20:19certainty and or I remember the first
20:21time I heard him talk about it I think
20:23he said we think we have a right to
20:26certainty that that you know in in Years
20:30Gone by people didn't have even
20:33encyclopedias available to them you know
20:35in terms of knowledge and and you know
20:40certainty about C about different things
20:42in life and he started me on this
20:45journey of really stopping and and and
20:49um asking myself sometimes I'm just kind
20:52of curious and oh you got to Google that
20:54you know just because you're curious and
20:55I've even tried to dial back on some of
20:59that lately or I was going out on a on a
21:03little trip with my brother not so long
21:05ago and I just stopped asking you know
21:07where we were going or how far or
21:09anything like that because I wanted to
21:11live in the moment and I think there's
21:14so many things that pull us out of the
21:16moment and and wanting certainty is one
21:21thing I'm sure but also I feel like
21:24certainty often is blinders it it limits
21:27it gives us kind of a
21:29anyway um this idea of certainty um I
21:33think really can narrow our our vision
21:36and so you start thinking well wait a
21:38minute you know you really should know
21:39what's right or wrong and um just lost a
21:43really dear friend a couple of weeks ago
21:45he's he's my age you know down to the
21:48month and the year and cancer and um
21:52when I was visiting him on some of the
21:54last visits I remember one time I showed
21:56up and he says Carl you know the really
21:58are no rules and this guy just loved to
22:01explore all different things and stuff
22:04and I just cracked up what he said
22:05there's no rules I said come on how
22:07about one at least one rule love let's
22:09just have that one rule and say there's
22:11only one rule which is love and and um
22:15he's like okay I I can give you that um
22:18but that whole idea that we wanted I
22:21think basically we want security you
22:24know we want we want safety which is
22:27which is natural and which is good it's
22:29Val it's valuable and and um but I think
22:33that we then think that safety is going
22:37to come through certainty for example
22:40where I would say much more you know
22:43especially the experiences that the that
22:46the genocide taught me safety was much
22:48more about relationships than about
22:51certainty and I think so many things um
22:54you know Financial Security as well as
22:57physical security and emotional security
23:00it's all coming down to relationships
23:03and one thing that's pretty pretty at
23:06times uh beautiful and frustrating about
23:08relationships often is the lack of
23:10certainty now I I I like my brothers
23:13they've got my back and I'm certain
23:15about that and there is no question
23:17there but that they would see um that I
23:21could predict you know and certain
23:22things I could predict other things I
23:24couldn't predict they would surprise me
23:26with those things and being willing to
23:28embrace the surprise is actually
23:31encouraging that you know and living a
23:34life that is not all bound up in you
23:38know certainty and I've I've got to know
23:41now some of us have personalities too
23:43that are that are much more you know
23:44risk averse or or prone to to taking
23:48risk and and so even that is is great
23:52because we would often like to bring a
23:55certain level of uh uniformity you know
23:58I think you you could probably throw
24:00uniformity right in together with the
24:02conversation they're not not at all the
24:03same but you'd find a lot of parallels
24:06between uniformity and certainty and and
24:09that you know we would push back on
24:12uniformity or push back on the drive for
24:14certainty is really important to me but
24:17what I what I liked about your question
24:20too was I think a lot of times we're
24:23like okay we need to well here let me
24:25give you this framework just learn this
24:27one a couple coup months ago Brian
24:30Mclaren Brian Mclaren that's what I want
24:33to say his name is anyway he talks about
24:38um rings of growth like a tree ring of
24:43growth on a tree he doesn't like the
24:45word stages or or phases but he likes
24:47the word the the concept or the metaphor
24:50of a ring and so the first the first
24:53ring is a ring of um certainty which is
24:58you know a little kid what's good what's
25:00bad you know every time I throw
25:02something off my high chair goes down it
25:03doesn't go up so you know I'm certain
25:05about different things and then I'm oh
25:07that's bad oh that's good and you know
25:09but then as we grow the second ring is
25:12more complexity and we recognize oh so
25:15it's not always that actually the first
25:18one I've been saying certainty to you
25:19his first ring isn't certainty it's
25:21Simplicity I knew it didn't sound right
25:23as I was saying it cuz but we're in a
25:25certainty mindset the first ring is
25:27simplest it's just simple it's this or
25:30that the second ring of growth is
25:32complexity and you find out that you
25:35know oh Mom and Dad were joking when
25:37they said that you know it's not just
25:39that simple or there is you know other
25:42other things in life that uh where the
25:44rules are different here than they are
25:46there and and so you're like oh that's a
25:48little bit interesting the complexity
25:49his third ring is perplexity and you
25:52might face things in life like a
25:54genocide or you face things in life like
25:57um you find out for example and
26:00sometimes the difference between
26:02complexity and perplexity might be you
26:03know overlapping but you find out that
26:06somebody remembers something different
26:08than you remembered it doesn't mean
26:09they're lying it's just that memory is a
26:12malleable thing so you start to realize
26:15hm so memory isn't always a moral issue
26:18if they tell it differently it doesn't
26:20mean that they perspective you know
26:22immoral and L yeah and his his fourth
26:25ring which I really love is
26:28is um Harmony now I just wasn't I didn't
26:32see that one coming Simplicity
26:34perplexity I mean Simplicity complexity
26:38perplexity Harmony whoa where is that
26:41coming from you know why would Harmony
26:44be that ring but I think as we move and
26:46we grow and we move back and forth it's
26:48not always oh now my life is all about
26:50complexity oh it's all about perplex no
26:53sometimes there are things that are
26:54simple and I'm not I'm not letting go of
26:56that original question when do do we
26:58decide this is it this is certain about
27:02that and so but what I love about that
27:04fourth ring of Harmony is that as I move
27:08I uh from Simplicity to complexity to
27:12perplexity um I it's going to be a
27:16battle the whole way unless I begin to
27:19embrace
27:20curiosity in case I let go if I don't
27:25let go of judgment so as I move move in
27:28these larger outer circles I start
27:31through curiosity to begin to learn even
27:34more and to embrace different
27:37perspectives you know different cultures
27:39all the differences that the beauties of
27:41differences so you can see now as
27:44somebody's moving away from judgment
27:45towards curiosity embracing all the
27:48beauties of the diversity that they're
27:50like yeah Harmony is a natural you know
27:54next one it's like it's like people who
27:56only stay in simplicity their whole life
27:59will always just sing the melody there
28:01won't be any Harmony but people who do
28:04engage and embrace I should say and not
28:07you know not fight against complexity
28:10and perplexity and I think one of the
28:12ways for that is to recognize that I
28:16don't always have a right to certainty
28:18but when you get to and and I think
28:20about you know the the example of course
28:22that comes to me in terms of when are
28:24you sure when are you certain you know
28:27is when my wife and I made the decision
28:3030 years ago now in 1994 that I would
28:32stay in uh in the middle of this
28:36genocide in trying to help two people
28:39who were in our house whose ID cards
28:41marked them to be exterminated not their
28:44character not anything they had done it
28:47was simply their ID cards and when my
28:50wife and I you know the fck came to us
28:52man they are so kind and respectful to
28:54foreigners here in Rwanda they were that
28:57way in Zambia when we live they were
28:58that way and Zimbabwe when we lived
29:00there you know and other countries we've
29:01lived in we were like maybe we can
29:04leverage that privilege to help these
29:07two people so when the embassy said you
29:10have no choice you have to leave I came
29:12back pretty binary and said no I do have
29:16a choice I'm a private American citizen
29:19and I can choose to stay and then you
29:21know they said well we need you to sign
29:23on a paper you refuse to help with the
29:25American government to leave and and the
29:27story goes on there
29:28so I would say to come to your question
29:32when do we you know it when is it much
29:35more simp I mean it's crazy because that
29:37decision was far from
29:39simple but it was very clear it was far
29:44from
29:45easy
29:47but we also couldn't see another way
29:52another choice you can't abandon these
29:54people to be killed and especially where
29:57we were coming from from a a background
30:01of of um believing in God believing in
30:07The Power of Love believing that you
30:10know there's no greater love than
30:12standing up for somebody who's about to
30:14be killed and wanting to live a life of
30:18Love um then you know then then it kind
30:22of a lot of stuff just kind of um what
30:25do you say boils away yeah a Clarity
30:29comes and and even though I say it like
30:33this and a Clarity comes there's a lot
30:35of things when people actually know that
30:36story better and dig into it deeper a
30:38lot of things people knew during that
30:40time that my wife and I didn't know but
30:43um you know like you and soldiers were
30:44leaving and the genocide will last for
30:46more than three months and more than a
30:48million people would be killed a lot of
30:50stuff we didn't know when we made that
30:52decision but we were we were certain
30:55that it was it was the right thing so I
30:57I think part of certainty might be
31:01definitely connected to the good of
31:03somebody outside of
31:05yourself you know um and if I'm just
31:09thinking about my own good then
31:13certainty I know I'm just winging this
31:15but I'm thinking if I'm just thinking of
31:17my own good maybe certainty isn't is
31:21something that's a little more I would
31:24want to be more cautious
31:26about does that make sense
31:28no yeah it makes sense I I have this
31:30like building of an idea or it's really
31:33a hypothesis um and I don't I don't
31:36claim to fully believe this but I have
31:38like in this framework that we're
31:39talking about uncertainty and
31:41understanding so I spent a lot of my
31:42early earlier years from 16 to Now
31:45searching for a reason because if I if I
31:49have a reason then I'm certain that what
31:52happened and what transpired can bring
31:54peace and what I've come to understand
31:57is that peace there you can achieve
32:00peace with lack of understanding at
32:02times in in acceptance because I'll
32:05bring this full circle now kind of with
32:07the hypothesis from my world viw and I
32:11would share your worldview the Christian
32:12worldview we believe in the plane of
32:15existence that we currently operate in
32:17is the one that we see each other in and
32:20and God other than Jesus Christ the holy
32:23spirit is like this this behind the veil
32:26world that we can't see the
32:28principalities and powers that the Bible
32:29talks about right and so I have this
32:32hypothesis that post sin that veil was
32:36erected um and in some ways a veil was
32:39released but this veil was erected
32:41because with our situation that we find
32:44ourselves in with a marred world of sin
32:48and our operation and you know what
32:50you're saying that kind of distortion
32:51and and broken Chain of Love there are
32:54things that if we if we saw them if we
32:58had our our eyes completely open to
33:00everything that's going on I don't think
33:02that our brains maybe a few because a
33:04few have been you know quote unquote
33:06translated but the all of the Just
33:07intensity and evil I think that's going
33:09on and the things that don't make sense
33:11it would overwhelm us to the point where
33:13we could not even function and and so I
33:17because I've I've done a lot of thinking
33:19and chewing on these re emergence of
33:22ideas and experiences that people are
33:24having around um psychedelics so I'm
33:27going to bring this all full circle but
33:29you know we have people who are taking
33:33these different compounds who have
33:34different effects on the brain and
33:35they're describing very similar
33:37experiences and so the way that I have
33:39tried to seek understanding in that is
33:41like well you know when I read the Bible
33:43and I read the story like such as the
33:45one with um um King Saul and The Witch
33:49of Endor you know that he goes to see a
33:52witch and he goes to talk to the prophet
33:53Samuel we know from the story in the
33:55context of the story he's not actually
33:57talking to Samuel he's talking to like a
33:59figment of it and so like I've been
34:00trying to like pull all these things
34:02together and figure out why as humans we
34:05have this insatiable desire for like
34:10something else cuz if I go back to the
34:12very original Bor a beginning story with
34:14Adam and Eve like Eve was told that she
34:16could have this experience that no one
34:18else had and this knowledge that nobody
34:20else had at the time and if she just did
34:22this then she'd have it and then Samuel
34:24um excuse me Saul was doing the same
34:26thing and now people are kind of going
34:28back to that and I'm I'm not proclaiming
34:29to believe 100% the psychedelics are bad
34:32but the understanding I've arrived to is
34:34that you kind of what you're saying you
34:36know what is the what is the certainty
34:38that I'm searching for is it self
34:41centered or is it others centered so
34:44Saul he was stepping out seemingly to go
34:47and find a piece that he was going to be
34:50able to make it through whatever was
34:52about to happen and he sought that from
34:54outside means and something that wasn't
34:55you know deemed at least in the Bible
34:57like good and so I see a lot of my
34:59friends and people who I I would
35:01consider like truly good friends who
35:02have have walked this path had these
35:04experiences and some of them have been
35:06arguably very good but their motivation
35:09usually is like a self-serving thing and
35:12you can then Define what is self-
35:14serving so again there's so much Nuance
35:16involved but going the whole hypothesis
35:18that I'm kind of trying to draw here and
35:19see what you think
35:21is do you think that the reason we
35:25aren't have our like eyes aren't open to
35:28that world the metaphysical world the
35:31it's called quantum mechanics is because
35:33if it was revealed it would just like it
35:36wouldn't it would break us down I know
35:37that's kind of a far stretch but I was
35:39kind of what do you what do you think I
35:42don't know if I explained all of that
35:43well but what you were saying like
35:45really started to like turn that yeah
35:49yeah I am there a lot of different
35:52directions we could go here Seth let's
35:55try this one for a moment um
35:58the religious World from my
36:00perspective is is really fraught with a
36:05with a ton of us and them thinking and
36:07us and them thinking is often really
36:11permeated with a sense of certainty this
36:15is right and this is wrong so when
36:17somebody for example would ask me if I'm
36:19a Christian I would want to talk with
36:23them to clarify a few things because for
36:25some people a Christian is is very um
36:30very you know yes or no very binary very
36:33a dualistic mindset it's like okay this
36:36is right this is wrong there's the
36:37Catholics and there's the Protestants
36:38and they were showing who was wrong
36:40there and who was wrong here so you have
36:42a lot of these conversations of right
36:43and wrong and I'm like that I don't
36:46identify with that anymore I used to but
36:49I don't I I
36:52am I think that you know what I what I
36:55experienced in the genocide you know
36:57where you had a country with more than
36:5880% of the people going to church every
37:02weekend and and that that whole
37:04religious infrastructure was not a
37:07barrier to genocide but could actually
37:11be hijacked and used in the in the
37:14carrying out of genocide is deeply
37:17deeply troubling to me and so um I I I'm
37:22much more comfortable when starting a
37:24conversation with people and they kind
37:26of like well sort of your philosophy or
37:29you know when they say you have a
37:30Christian way of looking at things and
37:31stuff like that I'm much more
37:32comfortable talking specifically about
37:35teachings of Jesus for example um and
37:39and so you know the let me give one
37:43other kind of big piece here yes for me
37:46and the way I'm I'm I'm looking at
37:48spiritual vision or seeing things that
37:52not being able to see things believing
37:54in things that you can't see those kind
37:56of those kind of things um we'll come
38:00back again to the framework in Rwanda
38:03and this horrible event yes students
38:05often and adults everyone often asks you
38:07know do you believe in God after a
38:09genocide uh how in the world you know
38:12what's implied there is that we've got
38:13an all powerful all loving God who just
38:16stood by and let you know grandmas be
38:19raped and babies be butchered and
38:21slaughtered and and it's like how in the
38:23world can you fit those things together
38:26and and
38:27my my initial response to that is um
38:32let's set the word god aside for a
38:35minute because that word means so many
38:38different things to different people and
38:39some people it's a great comfort and joy
38:41and the other people it's
38:43obscene and and so let's talk about love
38:48and even love of course is going to have
38:49different you know mean different things
38:51to different people but I don't think
38:53it's quite as convoluted charged yeah as
38:57what that convoluted charged yeah like
38:59yeah yeah I don't think it's quite as as
39:02a trigger for people as the word God
39:04could be so I'd asked them where did you
39:07see love in the
39:09genocide and uh we have a 40-minute film
39:12that we send to schools before I go and
39:14speak there and so I'll say where in
39:15this 40-minute film you watch leave me
39:17and my wife out you know we're not
39:19trying to get people to Pat us on the
39:20back or anything leave us out for this
39:22point and uh just tell me where did you
39:25see love in that film and they start
39:27giving examples of neighbor ladies who
39:29up the first night of the genocide stood
39:31up for our family and a man who allowed
39:3340 people in his home at Great risk to
39:36his wife and children you know and when
39:38they came to kill people in his home he
39:40offered these neighbors who slash would
39:44be considered Killers you know enemy he
39:46offered them chickens to take home to
39:48feed their kids that night you know you
39:50you you you talk about a a nurse in an
39:53orphanage and the incredible um selfless
39:56service she was giving to kids at the
39:59same time she was disinfecting and
40:00bandaging the wounds of the of the
40:03people committing genocide so you see
40:06love when you look all around but what I
40:08like about that
40:11framework is that instead of saying
40:13Where's God where we kind of look I
40:16don't know we're looking up around
40:17somewhere Where's God as if as if God is
40:21somewhere you know that we can't see or
40:23experience when we say where's love our
40:26Focus com comes right down to you me
40:30very much our hands our choices so for
40:35me God is my framework for love other
40:40people may have a different framework
40:41for love so I don't need to I don't need
40:43to argue with anybody about their
40:46framework for love when we can have some
40:48good conversation talking about love so
40:52this framework of Christianity I think
40:55has some beautiful parts in many
40:58people's minds and for other people it
41:00was Christians who killed you know my
41:02brother who was a doctor who was helping
41:05people um with you know assess uh with
41:10dignity of life and assistance of death
41:12you know at the end of of a very
41:14longsuffering period and these people
41:16called Christians killed him you know
41:18and or you you have all these extreme
41:20cases and once again our brain loves
41:23extreme cases because again it loves
41:25either this or that so you know when
41:28when we're in the middle of some you
41:30know the middle of the road so to speak
41:31the brain's like come on I don't have
41:32time for this you know I got a lot of
41:34work to do I got a lot of information to
41:36bring in and organize you got to tell me
41:37is it this or that is he a good guy or a
41:39bad guy and we have the ability with you
41:42know our prefrontal cortex to push back
41:44and say whoa whoa brain hold on here
41:46it's a little more nuanced than those
41:48things so kind of we we went off on on
41:52those different ideas but coming back to
41:54what what you are asking kind of behind
41:57the Veil so to speak
42:00um I don't know Seth I haven't found it
42:05super helpful or necessary in my journey
42:09right now to dig deeper
42:12into that you know the world of quantum
42:15physics or you know what is behind the
42:17veil and stuff maybe one day I will
42:20right now you know is something my PTSD
42:24is a lot more
42:27relevant to to what's what's on my desk
42:31what's on my table what's what you know
42:32top shelf for me um how people can
42:36actually see the enemy in their neighbor
42:40that becomes a really important
42:42conversation for me can people really
42:45change what's the role of
42:47neuroplasticity in rewiring our brain
42:50those are stuff that's a lot more um
42:53where I'm spending a lot more time these
42:55days because I think those things all
42:57you can you know as you think about them
43:00you can draw very direct lines back to
43:02love and the role of love both in the
43:06loss or or apparent failure of Love or
43:10in the incredible um healing and
43:13Reconciliation that comes about by love
43:15so I don't know did I think it's too far
43:17away or no I think that was really good
43:19I I think one of my um one of the things
43:23that makes it difficult but also fun I
43:26think some people do find it fun in
43:27having deep conversations is so my brain
43:30tends to kind of when I throw an idea on
43:31the ground it like splatters and it has
43:33these directions it goes about seven
43:35ways and I'm I'm trying so hard to like
43:38tie it all together so I think you did a
43:39great job of like touching on the high
43:41points and you know similar to you I
43:43think except I'm just a little bit more
43:46um I don't think I have the wisdom and
43:48experience to articulate and keep that
43:50vein but you did a really good job of
43:53like touching on those points and so I I
43:55really appreciate that um yeah thanks I
43:59do you know just to kind of summarize
44:01though this idea of certainty um
44:06learning to
44:07live free of
44:10certainty um even free of longing which
44:15was another challenge I was just writing
44:16in my journal back in January what's it
44:19like to live a life free of longing so
44:23and and often longing is connected to
44:25certainty you know we're longing for
44:27peace or longing for this or that and
44:29those things but learning to live a life
44:32Freer I can't say completely free
44:34because I don't know who's completely
44:35free but learning to recognize the grip
44:38that certainty can have on us that
44:40longing can have on us and actually live
44:43in the moment present moment and live
44:46with a sense of peace I remember once
44:48CER because I've I've experienced um
44:51some incredible counselors over the
44:53years after the after the genocide and I
44:57remember this one guy who said you know
45:00um have you ever thought about this Carl
45:02have you ever thought about letting
45:04something be what it already is in your
45:07life and I'm like that sounds like that
45:11sounds like apathy or something what do
45:13you mean I'm going to let it be what it
45:14already is in my life that's why that's
45:15why I'm here talking to you so it
45:17doesn't have to be what it already is in
45:18my life but I realized this time went on
45:21I had to add a little caveat to that
45:23thing I had to add CU I start I said
45:24okay I'm going to try to wrestle with
45:26this and see if there's something really
45:27here because I respect the guy a lot and
45:29it does sound you know kind of initially
45:33it sounds like I said apathy but then
45:35when you think a little deeper it does
45:37seem kind of inviting and so I added
45:40this little caveat let let it be what it
45:43already is in your life but won't always
45:45be I had to just add that last little
45:48piece on the end but won't always be now
45:50I don't need to add that last little
45:52piece on the end and one of the things
45:54that that has taught me one of the
45:56benefits of that idea let it be what it
45:59already is in your life is that you know
46:01say it's a relationship that you're
46:02struggling with um say it's something at
46:05work that you're struggling with
46:06whatever whatever it is that you're
46:08struggling with by struggling with it we
46:11kind of stay more in what I would call
46:13these days our downstairs brain our
46:16amygdala our kind of survival reptilian
46:19fight flight you know freeze type of a
46:22mode there so the creativity in the
46:24prefrontal in the upstairs brain the
46:26prefrontal cortex the creativity the
46:28empathy you know all of those things are
46:30kind of on offline when I'm fighting
46:34when I'm resisting but when I start to
46:36say okay I'm going to let this be what
46:39it already is cuz it is and I'm going to
46:41and not would have a certain a level of
46:43acceptance but I also had to throw in
46:46there won't always be because I needed
46:48that hope you know but now I'm learning
46:52to even live without throwing won't
46:54always be maybe it will always be
46:57but when I'm in this sense of more of a
47:00calm centered
47:03contentment even in the midst of
47:05something that just does not seem right
47:07now I'm not saying to turn our back on
47:08injustices or to be you know to be
47:11apathetic at all but what I'm saying is
47:13if I can be in a more accepting mindset
47:17and no I'm not accepting the rap of Gras
47:20and the killing a babies no I'm not but
47:23I I'm I'm understanding this is what it
47:26is right now doesn't mean it's always
47:29going to be that way but in that mindset
47:32I am so much better equipped to address
47:36the injustices to to actually bring
47:39about change in the end than when I'm in
47:42a constant fight fight uh uh type of a
47:47type of a mindset against that now what
47:50what did I what what brought us off on
47:53that idea I think we were talking about
47:55certainty still and like yeah kind of
47:57wrapping up the idea of what it is maybe
48:00I feel like there was another connecting
48:02link to all of that idea of certainty
48:05and and yeah
48:07longing yeah just a sense of peace and I
48:09could I can still begin to see some of
48:11those connections between you know let
48:13it be what it already is in your life
48:17and um because fighting hasn't often
48:19doesn't change it you know and it's but
48:22but I guess and even the word fighting
48:25connotates a certain level of violence
48:27and that would lend maybe to another
48:29conversation about struggle about
48:32violence and nonviolent thinking but
48:36yeah back to you sir no yeah I there's
48:39so many good thoughts there I mean I was
48:40just kind of reflecting and and trying
48:42to apply some of these situations to
48:44memories I have even from the recent and
48:45distant past to to to see how it fits
48:48and I think yeah in the context of or
48:52and on the topic of PTSD you know
48:55whether it was me being held gun point
48:57or the day we walked up on our house and
48:59like found my father dead in our house
49:01like there's a lot of as the as these
49:03memories come back and you know the body
49:06remembers uh times and dates even when
49:08we're not like straight up conscious
49:10about it the subconscious pulls it out a
49:12lot of the desire um for certainty in
49:17those moments really I think can also be
49:19described as like the Relentless pursuit
49:21of control especially me in my own life
49:24cuz I would start to feel a certain way
49:25the body would remember what happened
49:27and I couldn't have the emotional
49:29intelligence at that point to like kind
49:30of you know write it down like oh I
49:32think I'm feeling because of this this
49:33way because of those things once I came
49:35to a place kind of what you're talking
49:37about where I was able to accept what
49:40I'm feeling and be okay with it and and
49:42accept that it may not go
49:45away even knowing habitually and through
49:48cycles that like typically things do
49:50have an EB and flow and you know you
49:52have good times bad times but the Bel
49:55the acceptance that this may not go away
49:58is it was a freeing thing for me and I I
50:01don't struggle from the level of
50:04depression that I have known people to
50:06struggle such as my father um but I did
50:09I was in a place where like I recently
50:11had a conversation with a guy who was
50:13really depressed and you know he I
50:15didn't know anyone else anyone else
50:17experienced this particular feeling of
50:19like you wake up in the morning you feel
50:21good for 5 to 10 minutes but all of a
50:22sudden you just feel like this descend
50:24of Darkness where you just like are
50:26depressed depressed inside it and and
50:29I've I only felt that for a short time a
50:31few months uh to the point where like I
50:33did consider taking my life you know I
50:35was like what what would that look like
50:36and you know it's a dark place to be but
50:39then coming through that starting to
50:41deal with the feelings in on a level of
50:44you know talking and really accepting
50:46outside influences of light and love to
50:48kind of inform what I was experiencing
50:51helped me put me on a trajectory to
50:53where like I could accept I I think I
50:56think of the a beautiful example of it
50:58is in this book um a hiding place by Cy
51:00Tim boom one of the few books I've ever
51:02read have you read that book yeah yeah
51:05several times so she tells that story
51:07where they're in this concentration camp
51:09her and her sister her sister's sick on
51:11her deathbed and I forget what the exact
51:13quote is but she finds joy in the
51:16acceptance that basically what you're
51:18saying as she's on her dead death bed
51:20and Cory's talking to her sister I
51:22forget her name but her you know Corey
51:24herself is angry frustrated mad at the
51:27injust is using that deeper kind of
51:30reptilian side of the brain and her
51:31sister is operating in the frontal lobe
51:33in that moment yeah and then she makes
51:35that connection and just the peace that
51:37you can have in any situation when you
51:39come to that is it's inspiring which I'm
51:42sure you've experienced on a number of
51:43levels at Randa I'm trying to remember
51:46if that story was the one where her
51:48sister was tell and I can't remember the
51:50sister's name right now either for some
51:52reason but her sister was telling her to
51:54give thanks for the fleas
51:58and and um and and she's like get out of
52:01here that is going too far but later on
52:04they realized it was the fleas that were
52:06keeping the guards out of there so they
52:07could have some quiet time together they
52:09could have some some peace time to
52:12strengthen and be there for one another
52:14and um and it was the fleas who were
52:17keeping the guards from harassing them
52:19in that location and that idea of you
52:24know we talk about finding a silver
52:25lining are making you know lemon juice
52:28out of out of lemons you know lemonade
52:31um but I think that I think that there
52:35is this there is this place where we can
52:38come where we're not saying that that
52:40justifies anything you know that the
52:42horrors that happened have Justified it
52:45but the fact that we can grow in these
52:48situations instead of we can grow more
52:51kind and
52:53compassionate um in these horrific
52:55situations as incredible testimony to
52:58the power of love no matter what your
53:00framework for love is is that testimony
53:04to the power of love when when I was
53:05with some students from Chicago who were
53:07studying peace five years ago 2019 in
53:11Rwanda and they were talking with
53:12survivors there and they were asking
53:14these ladies you know about about God
53:18and um the ladies said to these young
53:22people from Chicago that she they said
53:25early we thought that God forgot us you
53:28know and then things got worse and we
53:30thought God didn't you know God didn't
53:32like us and things got even worse and we
53:35decided we didn't like God and she kind
53:37of ended with that and then um then the
53:40student to his credit he said but but
53:42what about today and and the lady kind
53:45of smiles and she says we got really
53:49lonely and we decided to try God again
53:52and then they made this statement that
53:55really will always stick with me they
53:58said it's our pain that drives us deeper
54:02into love and I was thinking to myself
54:05wait a minute here because so many times
54:08it seems like you know you're either
54:10going to experience pain or you're going
54:11to experience joy and we throw right in
54:14there love but what what do you mean
54:16your pain drives you deeper in the love
54:20and as I kind of journaled on that a bit
54:22after the visit I realized when you are
54:24grounding in pain you don't you know you
54:27don't know if you're going to get
54:28another breath you know and and you
54:31reach up and you find this life rafter
54:33this life preserver called love you
54:36realize that is the one thing that can
54:40help you pull your head above water and
54:43take another G you know gulp of air and
54:46and that love in service to people who
54:51who who the world says don't deserve it
54:54can be some of the most powerful uh
54:57experiences with love and I think that's
55:00where these stories of people who have
55:02survived the horrors and they have been
55:04able to journey to a place of getting
55:06free from their anger and bitterness and
55:09even after determining if it's safe or
55:12not moving into
55:14reconciliation that kind of a story and
55:17an experience just really does to me
55:21blow me away and testify to how yep our
55:25pain really was able to drive us deeper
55:29into love and I don't blame anybody
55:31whose pain drives them deeper into
55:33Despair and and you know cynicism I
55:36don't I don't blame them at all and I'm
55:38not like that's your fault or well you
55:40have a choice and things like that
55:41because I know that so many people like
55:43that they they don't see any choice and
55:46it's sure not up to me to say that there
55:47is a choice but when I do see somebody
55:50like these ladies and they're saying our
55:53pain drives us deeper into love I'm like
55:55you mean that's possible we that's a
55:58real thing and so that inspiration you
56:01know and then you want to start asking
56:03okay so what are the tools how did it
56:05how did it you know drive you deeper
56:08into love and you find that they have
56:10shared experiences with people who they
56:13had great differences with or great
56:15anger and bitterness but when they work
56:17side by side Building Homes together or
56:19roads together but they had some form of
56:21a shared experience they began to rewire
56:23their brain they began to see the
56:26differently and that um that is to me
56:30some of the incredible tremendous power
56:32of of love it's it can be a very
56:35practical you know not just an ethereal
56:37thing up in the sky but a very practical
56:39decision you know I don't like I don't
56:41want this guy to help me harvest my
56:42crops you know he he did Terrible Things
56:45to my family but I'm pretty desperate
56:46right now I need some help and so you
56:49have a shared experience side by side
56:51and you begin to rewire your brain and
56:53you're like whoa didn't think this was
56:56possible
56:58yeah so I think that this is a really
57:00appropriate time um if you can and I I
57:04have no limit on what I'm asking in
57:06terms of time so take as much Liberty as
57:08you want but I would love to hear
57:11because we've talked around this whole
57:14topic of Rwanda and there's a lot that
57:16goes into it your arrival there talk to
57:19me a little bit about I guess the
57:20building of relationships and then kind
57:22of leading up to that day um if anybody
57:25wants to read this book by the way I'll
57:26just show really quick I'm not leaving
57:29uh it's a great book by Carl Wilkins
57:30where you can kind of find a lot of the
57:31pieces where he journaled and and wrote
57:33through this story but I would love to
57:35hear from you like that lead up and then
57:39what
57:41happened um yeah this could obviously
57:45take hours let me um let's just kind of
57:48give a couple of snapshots and see where
57:50you might like to go from any of those
57:54snapshots um my wife and I uh graduated
57:58from college in 1981 a week later we got
58:02married 6 weeks later we moved to
58:05Zimbabwe I was a school teacher there
58:07she was working in the accounting
58:08department at the boarding high school
58:12and uh our daughters were born in
58:14Zimbabwe we Zimbabwe in Zambia after six
58:18years came back to the state so I was a
58:19shop teacher you know auto mechanics
58:21welding that kind of stuff after six
58:23years in Africa I came back to the
58:25states and and uh did an MBA and so that
58:29combination of shock teacher MBA we were
58:31looking for a job we really enjoyed
58:34being in Africa we loved you know
58:36raising our kids in Africa to at least a
58:39certain age you know we wanted them to
58:42have just an international experience
58:45kind of all over the world and so we got
58:47a job again in Rwanda this time which
58:49looked like a really peaceful Little
58:51Country in 1990 we moved there working
58:54with uh the itarian arm of the Adventist
58:57Church Adra Adventist development relief
59:00agency so we were building schools and
59:02operating clinics we were working there
59:05for four years before the genocide now
59:09because of time we'll just we'll just
59:11briefly outline six months after we got
59:14there in 1990 a war started so
59:16three-year war is going to precede the
59:19three months of the genocide the
59:22three-year war is almost like um a or
59:26something in many ways coming and
59:28preparing the soil it's it's it's
59:32driving people to their downstairs brain
59:35on a daily basis War does that they're
59:37fearing for their lives there's scarcity
59:40you know there's enemies there's threats
59:42all around so when we are in spending a
59:45lot of time in our downstairs brain
59:47which might be just clicking on the
59:49internet because most of the stuff on
59:51the internet is often well Lion Share is
59:54about bad stuff that you know frustrates
59:56or annoys or confuses anyway when you
1:00:00are at War for 3 years you can be very
1:00:03very vulnerable through manipulation and
1:00:05and a relatively small group of
1:00:08politicians some business members of the
1:00:11business Community um launched a coup
1:00:15when the president's plane was shot down
1:00:16the three-year War we thought itd come
1:00:18to an end people had uh laid down their
1:00:21guns we were going to have a new
1:00:22government including everybody but there
1:00:24was a small group of extremists who said
1:00:26we will never share power and this
1:00:28relatively small I mean you know I don't
1:00:30know 30 40 this relatively small group
1:00:33at the heart uh of of men and women um
1:00:37will launch a coup and and they will
1:00:40they will seek to exterminate the other
1:00:43and I I won't go into the difference
1:00:45between the majority and the minority
1:00:47groups the Hutu and the tootsies what I
1:00:49will say though is that they were they
1:00:51married each other much more than they
1:00:52hated each other so this is not an easy
1:00:55thing to pull off to convince people
1:00:57that their neighbor is the enemy but
1:01:00they've come through War there's also
1:01:03more historical components to influences
1:01:06in society in the people's thinking and
1:01:09so when the president's plane is shot
1:01:11down on April 6
1:01:131994 um and on April 7 this gang
1:01:16launches their coup the genocide begins
1:01:20and you know we have no idea my wife and
1:01:23I that this will last three months that
1:01:25more than a million people will be
1:01:27killed but what we do know is the young
1:01:29lady who lived and worked in our home
1:01:32had a tootsie ID card she was part of
1:01:34the minority she was marked for
1:01:36extermination we knew as I said earlier
1:01:39that they gave foreigners incredible
1:01:41privilege which we didn't earn but we
1:01:44thought maybe we could leverage that
1:01:46privilege so when the embassy said we're
1:01:49all leaving nobody staying not the
1:01:50Ambassador nobody we're all leaving but
1:01:53don't bring any rwandans well like whoa
1:01:56whoa wait a minute wait how can we
1:01:58abandon these people in our house there
1:02:00was the young lady plus the young man
1:02:01who came in the evening as a Watchman
1:02:04both of them had the minority ID cards
1:02:07and so my wife and I thinking this won't
1:02:08be more than two weeks thinking you know
1:02:10we can do this we can't just abandon and
1:02:13Lead these people to be killed we we
1:02:15made the decision that I would stay you
1:02:18know you said you were 32 Seth I was
1:02:20four years old I was 36 at the time um
1:02:24our our kids were 10 seven and five uh
1:02:28at that at that time my wife and I will
1:02:31make the decision that I will stay and
1:02:33she'll take the kids to safety because
1:02:37it was like the American government was
1:02:38basically telling us we couldn't take
1:02:40our whole family out yeah we could take
1:02:42our American family out but our Rwandan
1:02:45the young lady who lived and loved I
1:02:48always tell everybody if you want to try
1:02:49to get an idea you think about somebody
1:02:52who's loved loved loved on your kids and
1:02:54it's like their family family you can't
1:02:56abandon them and so you know when we say
1:03:00goodbye we thought maybe two weeks but
1:03:03it will it will stretch on over over
1:03:05three horribly long months and I will
1:03:09work with my Rwandan colleagues the guys
1:03:11we've been building schools together now
1:03:13we'll be working together to bring food
1:03:15and water to three groups of Orphans
1:03:17around the city I'll be building
1:03:19relationships with guys who are in
1:03:21charge of the genocide in the city men
1:03:23who later will be hunted and C capured
1:03:26and tried and are hopefully spending I
1:03:29know I should hopefully but the the rest
1:03:32of their lives in prison sadly some of
1:03:34them have already been released but
1:03:36that's another story between punitive
1:03:39thinking and restorative thinking and
1:03:41you know a healing priority as opposed
1:03:44to a Justice priority which really
1:03:46doesn't usually break the cycle of
1:03:48violence but so that's a summary SE
1:03:51where you no yeah so where do you want
1:03:53to go yeah I've got lots of questions
1:03:55but so I I underlined a few pieces in
1:03:57the book because when I remember reading
1:03:59this book years ago um really for the
1:04:01first time read it cover to cover in
1:04:04probably a day or two which is pretty
1:04:06quick for me most people probably do it
1:04:07in a couple hours but I I I sat down and
1:04:10absorbed it and there this was a moment
1:04:12in my life when you know we talked
1:04:14earlier about the binary black and white
1:04:18and I started to really accept the fact
1:04:20that there is a lot of nuance in life
1:04:21and so for me growing up um the
1:04:25interaction that I've had as it pertains
1:04:27to war and genocide are all outside
1:04:31non-experiential influences such as
1:04:33movies stories true or false fiction
1:04:36non-fiction that's what I had and I had
1:04:38it in my mind like you know that it's
1:04:40pretty black and white there's the good
1:04:41guys and the bad guys and whatever side
1:04:43you subscribe to that kind of Paints the
1:04:44picture of the other and then you move
1:04:46forward but there's this story um that
1:04:48I'd like to hear your perspective on
1:04:50where you built this relationship with
1:04:52Colonel renzaho renzaho is how you say
1:04:54his name and
1:04:56that profoundly shifted my view and I
1:04:58want to hear that story um when you
1:05:00first met him and then how he ended up
1:05:02playing a huge part in the saving of
1:05:05this minority group even though he was
1:05:07Leading The Killers to do these things
1:05:10and it it really City yeah and it it's
1:05:13still to this day is such a dissonant
1:05:17story and it
1:05:19because it's like the the World War II
1:05:21or World War I story when the both sides
1:05:23came out to play soccer on Christmas
1:05:25more or something like that but this is
1:05:26even more extreme in that you know it
1:05:29shows the power of love and and building
1:05:31a relationship but it's so incredibly
1:05:33uncomfortable for me to accept that
1:05:36that's how it went down because it makes
1:05:38no it's still like I want it to make
1:05:40sense but it makes no sense why if
1:05:43you're doing something 10 minutes from
1:05:45now and then you're doing a completely
1:05:47opposite thing the in the in the
1:05:49following hour it just like is such a
1:05:50distant thing and it really shifted my
1:05:52view on that part of the world so if you
1:05:55could tell a little bit that that
1:05:57story sure um you know this whole idea
1:06:01of good guy bad guy really is just a
1:06:03myth it's a construct that you know we
1:06:06put together to kind of I think satisfy
1:06:08our brain our brain's like you know okay
1:06:09what am I going to do with this
1:06:10information I got to put it somewhere
1:06:12and no you can't put it good and bad
1:06:15there's there's one or the other and so
1:06:17we give in to these myths I think at
1:06:20times when and and when we do it we
1:06:24really you know close ourselves off to
1:06:26to deeper understanding and appreciation
1:06:30and
1:06:31opportunities understanding appreci yeah
1:06:33opportunities and so um I had a pastor
1:06:36randan pastor and his wife who I invited
1:06:39to my home to live with me during the
1:06:41genocide and and they accepted that
1:06:44invitation and they were of the majority
1:06:46so they weren't openly being targeted
1:06:49but of course if you weren't supporting
1:06:50the genocide you could be seen as a as a
1:06:53sympathizer or as the enemy but I
1:06:55remember after the 3- week point the
1:06:57Pastor said I said to him one morning
1:06:59man I'm so glad we're all alive you know
1:07:01there were five of us there in the house
1:07:03pastor and his wife me and the young man
1:07:05and young lady with the Toots ID cards
1:07:07who are you know marked arged to be
1:07:10killed and I said I'm so glad we're all
1:07:12still alive you know it's like these
1:07:13three weeks have been really hard but
1:07:15there's got to be more what else can we
1:07:17do you know and um he said well if
1:07:20you're going to do anything outside the
1:07:22house you got to build a relationship
1:07:24with the people in power and and I don't
1:07:26know how to stress that enough that the
1:07:28wisdom and the value of that Council
1:07:31there's no way I would get through the
1:07:32roadblocks there's no way I would have
1:07:34done been able to do anything see the
1:07:36genocide was really highly organized and
1:07:39and very structured and written you know
1:07:41working on orders very you know it's
1:07:44like once orders were given you follow
1:07:46orders and it was very it was very much
1:07:50a a society of obedience to Authority so
1:07:54connecting with these authorities was
1:07:56you know the wise counsel this pastor
1:07:59gave me and um well the colonel who was
1:08:03in charge of the genocide in the capital
1:08:06city is going to become an incredible
1:08:08Ally to me I mean he's going to tell me
1:08:10about orphanages that need help knowing
1:08:13that that there's children at those
1:08:15orphanages of the people he's trying to
1:08:17exterminate he's trying to you know
1:08:20eradicate and and so you once again like
1:08:24well wait a minute is he on who side is
1:08:26he on and one of the things that I think
1:08:29is
1:08:30really
1:08:32helpful in trying to counter the myth of
1:08:37good guy bad guy is the idea that we all
1:08:43have this potential for good inside of
1:08:46us and yet our brain is just like this
1:08:50Taskmaster of okay it's either got to be
1:08:53this or it's got to be that come on you
1:08:55can't be in between or anything and yet
1:08:57we are we've all seen it we we've seen
1:08:59it in ourselves we've seen it in other
1:09:01people we do things that we are not
1:09:03proud of we are we are in fact perhaps
1:09:05ashamed of or we do things that we're
1:09:07grateful we were a part of and that
1:09:09didn't you know involve risk or
1:09:12sacrifice but we and so the things that
1:09:15we would label a person as good or the
1:09:17things we'd label as bad that we know
1:09:19they can be easily assigned to the same
1:09:22person so what what in the world does
1:09:26all of that does all of that mean it
1:09:28means that if you believe the potential
1:09:30for good is there you got a chance of
1:09:32accessing it if I believe that you know
1:09:36Seth I'm in trouble and I need a cell
1:09:38phone and I believe Seth has a cell
1:09:40phone then I'm going to say hey Seth can
1:09:42you help me if I don't think you even
1:09:44have the potential for good then I won't
1:09:46even approach you or it would never
1:09:48cross my mind so that was a big lesson
1:09:50for me during this time was you know you
1:09:53see people as the enemy but
1:09:56sometime they might end up being your
1:09:57greatest Ally you know I can appreciate
1:10:00your frustration with this Colonel but
1:10:02it got even more crazy than the colonel
1:10:06the the guy uh one of the guys who was
1:10:08um in the neighborhood of the biggest
1:10:10orphanage we were working for one of the
1:10:12guys who was running the extermination
1:10:15of that neighborhood he had a killing
1:10:16Squad by the time it's over he and his
1:10:19gang are responsible for killing more
1:10:21than 2,000 people I don't know if you
1:10:24remember that story in the book Seth
1:10:25where the where the orphans were
1:10:27evacuated I mean we' been surrounded we
1:10:30were sure there was going to be a
1:10:31massacre they got evacuated I went back
1:10:34to collect their blankets and stuff and
1:10:36here's this killing squad leader in his
1:10:39gang looting the orphanage I'm like
1:10:41convinced for sure they're going to kill
1:10:43me and my coworker gasa Alis and um and
1:10:48I have a letter of authorizing me to
1:10:50collect stuff from the orphanage from
1:10:52Colonel renzaho I pull the letter out of
1:10:54the pocket I it to the leader of the
1:10:56killing Squad the guy turns around and
1:10:58orders his guys to help me load the
1:11:00truck the guys who are looting the
1:11:02orphanage who I'm sure are about to kill
1:11:04me and
1:11:05gasa within a few minutes we are all
1:11:09working together to haul orphan
1:11:12belongings over to the church where they
1:11:14had been moved and I am I am just blown
1:11:18away by this and and I one of the things
1:11:21so because I'm trying to put some
1:11:23structure like you I'm trying to put
1:11:24some framework I'm trying to figure out
1:11:25is there a formula you know what's
1:11:27really what's really going on here and
1:11:30as I was writing about it in the in the
1:11:32book um I remember trying to figure out
1:11:35how can I communicate to people what
1:11:37this was like and there's there's part
1:11:39of the story where they helped me find a
1:11:41truck but the truck had like you know
1:11:4412in metal sides on it and we needed
1:11:47some because they would haul sand or
1:11:48gravel and drop those sides down and
1:11:50shovel it off you know and so how am I
1:11:52going to build temporary big sides on on
1:11:55the truck so we could really haul
1:11:56blankets and bulky things like that and
1:11:59so we started bringing the tables from
1:12:01the cafeteria out and standing them on
1:12:04end in each side of the truck so the
1:12:06tables started to build High sides on
1:12:09the truck as I was carrying the table
1:12:11with the guy who had a machine gun over
1:12:14his shoulder one of the killing Squad
1:12:16guys I realized that when we involve
1:12:20ourselves in Acts of service you know
1:12:24when we engage our mind and our muscles
1:12:28in Acts of service it changes the way we
1:12:31think about ourselves it changes the way
1:12:34we think about others so you can be
1:12:35sitting in this situation and think
1:12:37that's impossible nobody here will help
1:12:38me or no but you get your rear out there
1:12:41and you start doing something and you
1:12:43start doing something for other people
1:12:45and then you could start finding allies
1:12:47where you never thought you would find
1:12:49an ally but the big challenge often is
1:12:51not being held prisoner by our brain
1:12:54that says this is impossible there's
1:12:56nothing you can do get your rear out
1:12:58there and start and and you really can
1:13:00find a way to get through some
1:13:02incredibly impossible situations and in
1:13:06the end you still may not have a ton of
1:13:08logic to explain it but um but you've
1:13:12got some results um that are also pretty
1:13:16equally
1:13:18unexplainable yeah it's beautiful I
1:13:20think that it really brings home the
1:13:21fact I've what I'm realizing even from
1:13:24this conversation is that love isn't a
1:13:26logical thing and I often get myself in
1:13:29trouble logic but I hear you there's
1:13:32stuff that makes sense and there's stuff
1:13:33that makes love but I mean there is a
1:13:35love logic because you know if you get
1:13:38pulled over by a cop for driving too
1:13:40fast and the cop shows you some Grace I
1:13:42mean you might not call that love but
1:13:43you might call it love I am much more
1:13:45inclined to change my driving speed
1:13:48based on Grace than on a big fine now I
1:13:51know you see but here's the deal I know
1:13:53a big fine is a deterrent and stuff but
1:13:56my thinking when I get fined is how can
1:13:59I not get fined next time How can I get
1:14:02away how can I not get caught and my
1:14:05thinking when Grace or kindness is
1:14:07extended to me is not oh boy I don't
1:14:11know how I can you know not get caught
1:14:13here again my thought is it takes me
1:14:15into a whole another perspective a whole
1:14:17another framework and I'm not just
1:14:19thinking about me and my appointments
1:14:21and I got to get there faster but I'm
1:14:24I'm thinking about others and so yeah I
1:14:27hear you love's Not logical by
1:14:30transactional ways of thinking but boy
1:14:33love is logical when you talk about can
1:14:36people change you know transformative
1:14:39experiences love I would say is one of
1:14:42the most powerful and yeah maybe logic
1:14:44isn't the right word but love is the
1:14:46most powerful formula I would put
1:14:49forth so I want to read uh something to
1:14:53you and you'll recognize I it something
1:14:55you sent me earlier but I'm just going
1:14:57to quote the end of it and then we're
1:14:58going to talk about I'd love to talk
1:14:59about this essay that you wrote that
1:15:01ties in really well with this and
1:15:02there's further followup questions but I
1:15:04want to read it first so it says a few
1:15:06years ago this is you writing a few
1:15:08years ago I met an incredibly strong and
1:15:10cous and resilient woman who survived
1:15:12the 1994 genocide against the tootsie
1:15:15she shared with me her journey of years
1:15:17of healing and eventual reconciliation
1:15:19with the man who was part of the gang
1:15:21who had killed her husband and two sons
1:15:23after hearing this seeming unbelievable
1:15:25story she could see that I was
1:15:27struggling to see the man who had helped
1:15:29kill her husband and Sons as anything
1:15:31other than a brutal murderer she told me
1:15:34many positive stories about this man's
1:15:36actions towards her and some of the
1:15:38challenge um challenges he had faced
1:15:41along the way and then these were the
1:15:43words that she said to me quote it's
1:15:46wonderful to be a part of making someone
1:15:48beautiful again and this man is
1:15:51beautiful
1:15:53so yeah you you've been you've now been
1:15:56you know somewhat 30 years removed from
1:15:59this um I'm sure that you've come to
1:16:01terms with some levels of forgiveness
1:16:03and others that are still challenging
1:16:04just based on what you have said what is
1:16:07something that you're working through
1:16:09now that you're like you're trying to
1:16:12find peace about cuz like you wrote this
1:16:13essay you can talk about that but like
1:16:15what is it that you're like actively
1:16:17this is taking the mental
1:16:20bandwidth um well for a long time you
1:16:23know forgiveness is a subject that all
1:16:25often comes up after something horrific
1:16:27I mean it can come up after small things
1:16:29but horrific stuff and we have these
1:16:31discussions is that forgivable you know
1:16:32are some things unforgivable and those
1:16:35types of things and I have in many ways
1:16:38stopped using the word forgiveness and I
1:16:41try to Simply use the word or the or the
1:16:44sentences get free from anger and
1:16:48bitterness because I think when we say
1:16:50forgive sometimes we think H it's okay
1:16:53well forgive doesn't mean it's okay or
1:16:55we say forgive you it's like oh yeah the
1:16:57person was really sorry well no whether
1:16:59they're sorry or not is not when and and
1:17:02this is just my choice you could choose
1:17:04a bunch of different definitions for
1:17:05forgiveness but I choose this definition
1:17:07of getting free from anger and
1:17:10bitterness if they're sorry or not well
1:17:13it makes it easier if they're sorry but
1:17:14whether they're sorry or not I still
1:17:16want to get free from anger and
1:17:18bitterness this anger and bitterness has
1:17:21the potential to kill me to destroy me
1:17:24to destroy my relationships to destroy
1:17:27my kids relationship the grandkids it
1:17:28can go on for Generations so so the idea
1:17:32of getting free from anger and
1:17:35bitterness I think is a is like a
1:17:38universal invitation anger anger has a
1:17:42great role in in standing up for for
1:17:46boundaries you know for reestablishing
1:17:50boundaries but lately I I've also come
1:17:53to just believe that anger has a shelf
1:17:56life anger can go can be really valuable
1:18:01up to a point but then it can become
1:18:03poison and so you know and that's going
1:18:06to be different for different people and
1:18:08and sometimes we don't even know man the
1:18:11leader of that killing Squad who you
1:18:12know was going to kill everybody at the
1:18:14orphanage and then he ordered his guys
1:18:15to help me load the truck I stumbled on
1:18:17him 21 years later in a prison in Rwanda
1:18:21completely by accident and I was so was
1:18:25physically sick I felt like vomiting
1:18:27when I realized who that guy was I
1:18:30didn't know I had so much anger inside
1:18:32of me and it came out that day towards
1:18:34him and I think it was my anger towards
1:18:36the failure of the UN mission in Rwanda
1:18:38towards the American government's
1:18:40contribution to withdrawing the UN
1:18:42soldiers there's all failure uh anger
1:18:45towards organized religions failure so
1:18:48sometimes we don't even know how much
1:18:50anger we've got inside us but if we can
1:18:52start the conversation
1:18:55recognizing that there is probably some
1:18:58anger and bitterness and getting free
1:19:01yeah that's really not about the person
1:19:04who because often we think forgiveness
1:19:05is about the person who did the harm I
1:19:08think there is a gift to the person who
1:19:10does the harm when we get free of anger
1:19:12and bitterness but that's a side a
1:19:15ripple effect the main Stone in the
1:19:18water the main benefit of this not the
1:19:21ripples but the main benefit of this is
1:19:23for us who were wronged to get free from
1:19:26anger and bitterness then if it's safe
1:19:30we could like this lady in the story we
1:19:32could pursue
1:19:35reconciliation then the question is are
1:19:37they sorry very relevant question do
1:19:39they deserve
1:19:41it that might be a little harder to
1:19:43navigate around but do I want a world
1:19:48where people can heal yes do I want a
1:19:52world where we can break the cycle of
1:19:53violence yes
1:19:55and so reconciliation then may become a
1:19:59goal in in a a certain a certain
1:20:03situation um I mean in in different situ
1:20:05I mean I'm not saying you reconcile with
1:20:07people who abused you as a kid or
1:20:09something and then they just go on to
1:20:12abuse you or you continue to be a
1:20:13doormat or things like that we need to
1:20:16know that it's safe and healthy to
1:20:18reconcile and we need to look and
1:20:20understand codependency and things like
1:20:23that but um
1:20:25your your idea of this story of Maria
1:20:28and Filbert and her ability to rewire
1:20:33her brain so that when she saw this man
1:20:37she no longer saw him primarily as the
1:20:41guy who killed her husband and Sons but
1:20:44she began to see him as more than the
1:20:49worst thing he had done she began to see
1:20:52him as a human she actually by the time
1:20:55we met 25 years after the genocide she
1:20:58introduced him as this valuable family
1:21:01friend helped her with planting helped
1:21:03her with harvesting he says he does
1:21:05things for me like my my sons would have
1:21:08done if they were alive and I'll I'll
1:21:11tell you honestly Seth when she said
1:21:13that one I mean she says he helps me
1:21:15planting and harvesting and in my mind
1:21:17I'm not saying it out loud but in my
1:21:18mind I'm like that's the least he can do
1:21:20you know and he does things for me like
1:21:21my sense and in my mind I'm like yeah
1:21:23well if he wouldn't have killed they
1:21:25would be here to do it for you I
1:21:26realized I don't know if it was while I
1:21:28was still listening to the story or
1:21:30later but I realized every time she said
1:21:32something positive about this guy you
1:21:35had a negative I was stuck in 1994 all I
1:21:38could see was a murderer so every time
1:21:40she said something positive in my mind I
1:21:43was countering it with this yeah well if
1:21:45he wouldn't have killed your sons you
1:21:46know type of thing he apologized to me
1:21:48again and again that was a little harder
1:21:50for me to counter but I but I found a
1:21:52way I was like okay
1:21:55apologize once that's fine now get out
1:21:57don't keep coming back with your
1:21:58apologies you see what I'm I'm just
1:22:00really stuck in 1994 I cannot see this
1:22:03man as anything other than that and I
1:22:06realized later when I was journaling I
1:22:09was like what is your problem Carl you
1:22:12are with a woman who is just incredibly
1:22:15strong resilient gracious beautiful
1:22:18loving heart and all you're doing is
1:22:20countering everything positive she's
1:22:23saying in your head
1:22:25and I realized I had a subconscious
1:22:28belief that if you say something
1:22:31positive about somebody who's done
1:22:33something horrible or bad in any way but
1:22:36in this case extremely horrible if you
1:22:39say something positive you're
1:22:40diminishing the crime there's a
1:22:42subconscious belief so I don't think
1:22:43it's true well it's got a certain logic
1:22:45but hang on you diminish their crime and
1:22:47you diminish their accountability and
1:22:50then in my journaling I'm like okay whoa
1:22:51whoa whoa if that's what you think what
1:22:54about Maria if she says something
1:22:57positive about that's the name of the
1:22:58lady if she says something positive
1:23:00about the guy who killed her husband son
1:23:01do you think she's diminishing the crime
1:23:04or diminishing their accountability no
1:23:06way
1:23:08so I have got to recognize that this is
1:23:12a messed up subconscious belief that I
1:23:15hold that if you say something positive
1:23:18you are diminishing the crime or
1:23:21diminishing their accountability really
1:23:23what Maria is doing is she's getting
1:23:26free from anger and bitterness and her
1:23:30pathway of getting free from anger and
1:23:32bitterness is reframing this man is
1:23:35seeing him as more than that now she'll
1:23:37never forget he's the guy who killed her
1:23:40husband and son but instead of that fact
1:23:43like my arm the fact that he's the guy
1:23:46who killed my husbands instead of that
1:23:48fact triggering more anger or confusion
1:23:50or loneliness or bitterness she actually
1:23:53would say it now with a sense of wonder
1:23:56I cannot believe this is the same guy
1:23:59because she has formed so many new
1:24:01neurop Pathways in her brain in finding
1:24:04the good about around that guy now Seth
1:24:09I've totally lost myself in the story
1:24:11where were we going with this no you
1:24:13went exactly where I wanted you to go
1:24:15that was beautiful yeah just the story I
1:24:17mean this whole idea of getting free
1:24:20from anger and bitterness you know Maria
1:24:23some people might say that Maria is one
1:24:25in a million and I'm not going to argue
1:24:27She would argue she would say oh no no
1:24:28no there's many more people like me and
1:24:30I've met other people like her too so I
1:24:32could I could make a small argument for
1:24:34that but not like Maria's but the point
1:24:37isn't whether she's one in a million or
1:24:40not I mean again that goes back to our
1:24:42certainty thinking we're like okay is if
1:24:45more people did it then I'm certain that
1:24:47there's something here something that
1:24:50can help me you know that certainty has
1:24:52comeing it's possible but you know it's
1:24:55the crazy thing about about Hope is Hope
1:24:59is
1:25:00not attached at the hip to certainty
1:25:04hope you just need a tiny little like
1:25:07like molecule of Hope and it can and it
1:25:10can just explode into something big and
1:25:13powerful there Maria gives me hope she
1:25:17inspires me she challenges me she and
1:25:20she has helped pull me out of 1994
1:25:24into that was 2019 today
1:25:292024 and and to really believe people
1:25:33can change not just the the um
1:25:37perpetrator but even the victim can
1:25:40change to a way of freedom from anger
1:25:44and bitterness to a way of actual joy to
1:25:48a way of um what what I said at the end
1:25:51of that little piece that you wrote you
1:25:53know it's wonderful see okay I got to
1:25:56tell you this one part here it wasn't
1:25:58just all the things this guy did but
1:26:00when her little girl grew up they
1:26:02invited this guy to the wedding and they
1:26:04gave him when the little girl was
1:26:06getting married now they gave him the
1:26:08honor they asked him to perform the
1:26:11honor you would usually ask an uncle to
1:26:13be that MC the Master of Ceremonies for
1:26:15the wedding when I heard that I was like
1:26:18no I mean I'm just hearing all of this
1:26:20in a few minutes and this is a journey
1:26:22of years that they've gone through and I
1:26:26can't my brain just doesn't want to
1:26:28don't invite the guy to the wedding okay
1:26:30if you're going to invite him put him in
1:26:31the corner don't make him the ma what
1:26:33and I said to her after in private I
1:26:36said Maria I'm I'm sorry I just got to
1:26:37ask you did some of your family survive
1:26:40and and um come to the wedding and she
1:26:42said yeah weren't some of them angry
1:26:44that he was there and she says to me
1:26:48well yeah and I'm I'm like well why' you
1:26:50do it why did you ask this guy well you
1:26:53know I just not I'm not comprehending
1:26:56and she looks at me very graciously and
1:26:58patiently and she says well it was our
1:27:01home it was our wedding he's our friend
1:27:04it's our choice and and I'm like she is
1:27:09to she is the real deal she has totally
1:27:11rewired in her brain these this the
1:27:14whole way she pictures this guy and sees
1:27:17him as a totally different person and
1:27:19then she said to me before her statement
1:27:21she says to me I think she she thought
1:27:23this would help me she says you know um
1:27:26cuz I was asking wasn't your family
1:27:27angry at you for doing that she says you
1:27:29know when my daughter had kids she asked
1:27:32him to be the
1:27:34Godfather and I'm like I can't you know
1:27:37I can't why do you ask somebody to be a
1:27:39Godfather you want your kids to know
1:27:40they got your back you want to but she
1:27:42says his family was angry at him when he
1:27:45agreed to be the Godfather not that
1:27:48moment I was still so stuck in 1994 that
1:27:50I like I don't give a rip about him and
1:27:52his family but later I realized she had
1:27:56healed to the point that she could
1:27:58actually step out of the spotlight that
1:28:00I put her in and put filbert in the
1:28:03spotlight she could empathize in a way
1:28:06her empathy was part of her key to
1:28:10getting free from anger and bitterness
1:28:12to rewiring in her mind who this guy was
1:28:15to to to actually having a life which
1:28:19appears to me to be incredibly joyful
1:28:23and full of GR attitude and and um it
1:28:27still makes me kind of shake my head but
1:28:29that's when after you know she said his
1:28:32family Sanger him and then she's like
1:28:34okay this I'm just guessing she's like
1:28:36okay this is the last thing I can tell
1:28:37this guy and that's when she says you
1:28:39know it's wonderful to be part of making
1:28:41somebody beautiful again and this guy's
1:28:44beautiful and that story along with
1:28:47other stories meeting the leader of the
1:28:49killing Squad you know 20 years 21 years
1:28:51later and my encounter with him and
1:28:53several subsequent visits with him and
1:28:55stuff have really put me on this journey
1:28:57of trying to figure out you know what
1:29:00really is it in us that um
1:29:05that can lead to a story like Maria's
1:29:11story or can lead to a life of murder
1:29:14and killing like the leader of the
1:29:16killing Squad in this gang who killed
1:29:18more than 2,000 people and I don't know
1:29:21Seth if you're going to break this
1:29:22podcast up in the peace
1:29:25or what but um but well I don't who's
1:29:28going to sit and listen we're at 2 hours
1:29:30and 4 minutes we're at an hour and I
1:29:33listen I listen to 4our podcasts and I
1:29:35know they exist and people can come back
1:29:37to them later but I think that there's a
1:29:38beauty in the discourse of long
1:29:40conversations because you can learn a
1:29:41lot about a
1:29:42person I hear you I hear you um well I'm
1:29:48G
1:29:49to I'm going to wrap this one up with
1:29:53this and then you tell me if you know we
1:29:55want to go deeper maybe another time
1:29:58sure but this idea of good guy bad guy
1:30:02you know the idea of the potential for
1:30:04good in everybody and and and um you
1:30:08know trying to access that good that's
1:30:10there in
1:30:11everybody uh led me last January well
1:30:15let me back up a little bit before that
1:30:18um a year ago may I was talking with a
1:30:21counselor and wondering about you know
1:30:23still res ual PTSD and now they talk
1:30:25about complex PTSD and and in different
1:30:29treatments EMDR and stuff and I had been
1:30:31meeting with her for a while trying to
1:30:33unpack you
1:30:34know are you really you know found
1:30:37healing and and or is there still parts
1:30:40that you know need to be plumbed deeper
1:30:43and stuff and in one of those
1:30:45conversations she said to me I don't
1:30:48even remember what brought it up but
1:30:49we're zoom and she's looking at me you
1:30:51know through the zoom and she says
1:30:54well Carl you know you have a good heart
1:30:58right now she's not a Christian by any
1:31:01profession or anything like that um so
1:31:05you know I wasn't expecting her to be
1:31:07talking to me by God or things like that
1:31:10but when she said you know you have a
1:31:12good heart don't you I remember pausing
1:31:15and and you know looking away like I'm
1:31:17looking away right now and then looking
1:31:19back at the screen and saying no I do
1:31:20not know I have a good
1:31:22heart and and that started me on a
1:31:26journey to
1:31:27really uh um dig deeper in what what
1:31:31does it mean to have a good heart and I
1:31:35had grown up you know with the idea that
1:31:38you have a sinful nature and I don't
1:31:41want to get into um a discussion or any
1:31:45kind of you know debate about people
1:31:48having a sinful nature or not but
1:31:50eventually what it led me to in January
1:31:53last year was
1:31:54saying you know this whole idea of a
1:31:57sinful nature well some people said that
1:32:00came into theology in the 1600s so there
1:32:03were people for 1500 years after Christ
1:32:06who didn't live with that belief of
1:32:09sinful nature um I'm not going to argue
1:32:12or debate it back and forth but I'm
1:32:14gonna I'm going to take a test drive I
1:32:16don't know how long you know I just said
1:32:18back January I'm going to take a test
1:32:20drive with the idea that you know within
1:32:22a Christian framework you're made in the
1:32:25image of God so why in the world would
1:32:28God put a corrupt core like a CPU that
1:32:31is messed up in this beautiful image of
1:32:35God so again I know people can debate
1:32:38different things like that and I think
1:32:39there's space Maybe for all of it but I
1:32:41just started saying to myself you know
1:32:44what your heart is an extension of love
1:32:47now my framework for Love Is God okay so
1:32:50your heart is is an extension of love
1:32:53your heart is beautiful pure love in
1:32:56there um you have been trying for so
1:32:59many years to somehow heal your heart
1:33:03improve your heart because you have
1:33:05believed that your heart is some way
1:33:08defective at its core it is just selfish
1:33:10and stuff what if all the things you've
1:33:12been leaving all these years is and I'm
1:33:15going to kind of mark beside me is a
1:33:17false self or a false heart a false
1:33:20sense of self that you have constructed
1:33:22and and it really isn't truly you but
1:33:25you have believed it all these years
1:33:27that it is you and and then I'm like oh
1:33:30my goodness that's that's why pain shame
1:33:32can be so powerful in here because when
1:33:34shame you do something that you know is
1:33:37not kind or compassionate it's contrary
1:33:39to love you do something that's contrary
1:33:41to love and shame is like yep that's
1:33:43because you're a piece of trash that's
1:33:44what you got at your core is this this
1:33:47defective selfish core so what if I said
1:33:51no saying that it's not true I have a
1:33:54beautiful extension of Love at my core
1:33:58my thoughts my neural Pathways and my
1:34:00actions those are kind of messed up at
1:34:03times but that's not because I have a a
1:34:08rotten corrupted core that's because I
1:34:11believed that I had a rotten corrupted
1:34:14core now I'm I'm test driving a
1:34:17different belief that says you have an
1:34:20extension and I mean within the
1:34:21Christian Community Paul would say you
1:34:23know it is in Christ that I find my my
1:34:26life my movement my being everything is
1:34:30in that that to me speaks of this this
1:34:32core and and so over the months as I you
1:34:36know would would you know you do
1:34:38something that is selfish or greedy you
1:34:41know and then and I might uh shame might
1:34:43come back and say Hey you know you are
1:34:45just a greedy guy you you really don't
1:34:47care about any but yourself and I'm like
1:34:48whoa whoa whoa shame you don't live here
1:34:50anymore um I have a beautiful core that
1:34:55was given to me it's not I earned it or
1:34:58I made it it was given to me and I
1:35:01believe every other person has a
1:35:03beautiful core that was given to them
1:35:06many people like myself were not a aware
1:35:09of it for much of their
1:35:11life but try try living out of this so
1:35:14I'm like shame you don't have it I know
1:35:16it's kind of crazy to have these
1:35:17conversations but they work for me you
1:35:19know it's like GRE comes along and yeah
1:35:22yeah we do Greek comes along and says
1:35:24Yep this this is who you are and I'm
1:35:26like no I'm not agreed that's not I mean
1:35:28initially I'd be like oh yes I am d I am
1:35:30so and then I'm like whoa wait a minute
1:35:33I have a beautiful love core heart the
1:35:37the I think that the title that I gave
1:35:40this piece that I'm working on right now
1:35:42is um the soul given to you boy I don't
1:35:45even remember my words at times the soul
1:35:48you've been given is pure the soul I've
1:35:51been given is pure and so I can say to
1:35:55shame you have no place here and when
1:35:58shame says well what how are you going
1:36:00to explain you know what are you going
1:36:01to do with those um greedy thoughts or
1:36:05those unkind actions I'm like well guilt
1:36:08is going to help me resync that with my
1:36:11perfect core but instead of me from the
1:36:13outside trying to improve this core is
1:36:16now a belief from the inside that is
1:36:19changing outward that is really helping
1:36:23me to believe that I am you know again
1:36:27with my framework a child of God
1:36:30somebody else's framework a child of
1:36:32Love however they want to frame it but
1:36:34that that love is there and that love is
1:36:38is changing me I I'm not afraid anymore
1:36:42I'm not a prisoner to shame I'm not so
1:36:45judgmental and critical because that's
1:36:46the second part of this is when you stop
1:36:49just looking at yourself you look at
1:36:50other people and no matter how horrible
1:36:52of things they've done if you believe
1:36:54that there is a beautiful buried deep
1:36:56down there somewhere down deep there is
1:36:59this this beautiful core you could be
1:37:02part like Maria you know after the
1:37:05genocide it's wonderful to be part of
1:37:07making somebody beautiful again of
1:37:09digging down and helping them know you
1:37:12are not the worst thing you have done I
1:37:14love this one consultant Laura Duncan
1:37:17she says what we do matters but we
1:37:20matter more can you imagine growing up
1:37:23in a family that says yeah what you do
1:37:26matters but you matter more you are not
1:37:29I am not ashamed of you you should not
1:37:31be ashamed of yourself because shame
1:37:34speaks to the core of who we are you
1:37:36know we do something wrong guilt says
1:37:39that was wrong that was messed up James
1:37:42says you are wrong you are messed up and
1:37:46those are the things that I think um are
1:37:49so they lead to so much violence whether
1:37:52it's violence against ourselves or
1:37:54whether it's violence against others so
1:37:56I think there's a powerful connection
1:37:58I'm still trying to dig deeper into that
1:38:00one between shame and violence that's
1:38:02there I mean it seems obvious in many
1:38:04levels but I think there's got to be I'm
1:38:06sure there's more research to dig into
1:38:08that thing so this idea of
1:38:11believing that the soul I was given is
1:38:15pure really here we are almost 11 months
1:38:19later and I'm like I'm not test driving
1:38:22that anymore I'm just in embracing that
1:38:24full full full ho fullon embracing that
1:38:29because that has given me some of the
1:38:33most I've had some of the most I've been
1:38:35through some really hard stuff in these
1:38:3711 months but I've also just been
1:38:40through some of the best stuff and I've
1:38:42gotten through the hard stuff in so much
1:38:45better shape when I don't believe I'm a
1:38:47piece of trash at my core but I but I
1:38:51believe that I and then the other people
1:38:53you know when somebody says something to
1:38:55you that's not very nice or thoughtful
1:38:57you can say ah so that's what they
1:38:58really think of me you know or you could
1:39:02say I mean think about your partner you
1:39:04know or you can say I wonder if that's
1:39:08really what they think of me or if
1:39:09that's what's coming out of their false
1:39:11sense of self because when you grow up
1:39:13living out of this false sense you got
1:39:15all the neural Pathways that are
1:39:16connected there and you believe that is
1:39:18really the truth but when you start to
1:39:20try another pathway
1:39:24and you realize that's not the the truth
1:39:27of who I am you know um then then I
1:39:31think you've got Endless Possibilities
1:39:34that begin to open up and and you're
1:39:37people there's this book I I've only
1:39:39read Parts out of it unoffendable you
1:39:41know but when people say stuff and we
1:39:43not and it's not like oh I'm so clever
1:39:45and I know you're speaking out of your
1:39:47false self there's no kind of certainty
1:39:49or arrogance that would come along with
1:39:51it but it's curiosity I wonder if that
1:39:55really is what they what they think or
1:39:57right now out of their pain because that
1:39:59beautiful self gets covered by abuse it
1:40:04gets covered by neglect it gets covered
1:40:06by well-meaning people saying oh that's
1:40:08a good boy when you do that oh no that's
1:40:09a bad boy and so I become super
1:40:12conscious of of of the words I choose
1:40:15especially when speaking my grand kids
1:40:17and with little kids but with everybody
1:40:20you know to recognize that there are
1:40:23kind and harmful
1:40:26Deeds but but the harmful Deeds I've
1:40:31been test driving and I am now embracing
1:40:34are coming from a false self the kind
1:40:37and beautiful ones are coming from our
1:40:39true
1:40:41self probably more I could go into that
1:40:43I said I was going to do it short but
1:40:45it's hard it's a it's a it's a
1:40:47beautifully complex topic I don't think
1:40:49they can be short changed um or I guess
1:40:52it could but it should be short changed
1:40:54in the amount of effort to explain
1:40:56because I think after somebody explains
1:40:57something really it takes probably three
1:40:59or four maybe even five times before the
1:41:01person on the other side can start to
1:41:03piece together a perspective yeah and
1:41:05then begin to take a for test drive and
1:41:08see what see how it feels for you yeah
1:41:10and I think that's really important you
1:41:12know it's not like I'm trying to tell
1:41:13everybody this is how it is but I can
1:41:16tell you this is what it means for me
1:41:18yeah and this is how it's working for me
1:41:21and um and this is how it's changing the
1:41:24way I'm looking at people who have
1:41:26committed horrific
1:41:29crimes yeah no I I I think that it's
1:41:33it's true I mean it's interesting I
1:41:35don't know if you've talked to you know
1:41:37Uncle Steve um but so for those who
1:41:39don't know Uncle Steve is another just
1:41:41really good guy on our side of the
1:41:43family and he has been for a while
1:41:45coming to a similar conclusion with a
1:41:49different I think a little bit different
1:41:51perspective but he still holds um which
1:41:54we grew up you grew up with kind of this
1:41:55view that like it's you know inside at
1:41:58my core I am filthy rags type of a thing
1:42:00and I do believe and I have actually
1:42:02learned personally like in the
1:42:04past last February I went to this 3-day
1:42:07event up in Canada it wasn't a religious
1:42:09event uh people running it would
1:42:11subscribe to be a Christian I think but
1:42:14it it radically shifted the way that I
1:42:17view what love is and what heaven
1:42:20actually would be like um because I
1:42:22experienced just love in a way that I
1:42:25didn't know was possible from people who
1:42:28I would have written off pretty quickly
1:42:30based on appearance in a short 5 to 10
1:42:32minute conversation and people who
1:42:34looked very different from me and had
1:42:36lived very different lives so you know
1:42:39all of that to say like what you wrote
1:42:42to me and this concept um it that you
1:42:46know like the inner selfelf is is good
1:42:50um and that we should believe that is
1:42:51actually it's very uncomfortable to me
1:42:53because it's the exact opposite of the
1:42:55doctrine that I was grown up in um but I
1:42:59do I don't know at what age one can
1:43:04recognize that and it and it happens but
1:43:07I do realize in my own journey through
1:43:10life that there's an age that kind of
1:43:12happens over time where like I can look
1:43:15at these things and you know I think
1:43:18about it and like you're saying like
1:43:19your inner self like the heart I really
1:43:21see in my life where I've gone gone and
1:43:24CH and and been to like a place where
1:43:25like this is the heart that's in place
1:43:27and this is the heart that's in place
1:43:29and I think that yeah we are made in the
1:43:32image of God and when we're like when we
1:43:34grow
1:43:35older things can be tainted it's usually
1:43:38through the actions or words of others
1:43:40that we kind of what you're saying we
1:43:42start to talk down to ourselves and then
1:43:44we convince ourselves that like oh we're
1:43:46actually the bad side of that more I
1:43:50don't know if I like can fully like I
1:43:53have been test driving it for a little
1:43:54while probably not to the degree and
1:43:56intensity that you have given your
1:43:59experience with it and the the the
1:44:01predisposition and the experience you've
1:44:02had like I think it's given you the
1:44:04courage to really adopt that to a fuller
1:44:07degree um but I whether it's like you
1:44:11said like you you don't think you have
1:44:12it all figured out and I don't I don't
1:44:14think you do or anyone else has it all
1:44:15figured out but I think that
1:44:18that uh trail that you're pointing to
1:44:21can lead to like a much better a lot
1:44:24more peace like a loving life to our
1:44:28like in how we view oursel cuz I used to
1:44:30think that like oh the you know selfish
1:44:32people only think about themselves and
1:44:34you know in the context of depression
1:44:35like when I think about my father I was
1:44:36like well he was the selfish man of all
1:44:38selfish most selfish man of all and
1:44:40there's pieces of Truth to these things
1:44:41but it's not it's not it's it's nuanced
1:44:45and like how I view myself inside cuz
1:44:48there was this exercise that we went
1:44:50through not to give away too much from
1:44:51this thing but we wrote down all of the
1:44:54bad things like being true to ourselves
1:44:56like what we thought about ourselves
1:44:58then we stood up and we said these
1:44:59things one by one to ourselves like and
1:45:02they were kind of making fun of it like
1:45:03they play kind of funny music and we're
1:45:04standing up and we're like reading these
1:45:06list of things to ourselves okay and
1:45:08then the music stops and then um I'm
1:45:12going to get in trouble for sharing this
1:45:13but we we pulled out essentially a
1:45:16picture of our us as a child and we were
1:45:20told to say that to oursel and like I'm
1:45:23to tears thinking about this and like we
1:45:24would never we would never say that to
1:45:26our children the people the young ones
1:45:30and so and but we go on doing that
1:45:32because we're adults and we're like oh
1:45:33we can take it and it's just just like
1:45:34it's not true like you are you can speak
1:45:38life to people you can speak life into
1:45:40them they can go and murder somebody
1:45:42they can rape them they can kill your
1:45:43father your father can kill himself it
1:45:45does not matter at their core like
1:45:47that's still a little kid who needs love
1:45:49and if you show him that love then like
1:45:51you said that can that can sprout to
1:45:53something beautiful so I'm really glad
1:45:54you shared that because it goes in line
1:45:56with the lessons I'm learning and I'm
1:45:59honestly like I could I'm almost about
1:46:00to crack CU it's still so hard for me to
1:46:02believe inside that like I can be
1:46:04something good and beautiful we tie it
1:46:07we tie it to behavior so much so we all
1:46:10become tied to behavior and that's why I
1:46:12like that one sentence what you do
1:46:14matters our Behavior does matter but you
1:46:16matter more and you see for so many
1:46:19people that's just a sentence but they
1:46:21like no it's what I do that really
1:46:23matters the most and and we take things
1:46:25and we say out of the heart the mouth
1:46:28speaks so like your actions we know our
1:46:31actions come from our real core and I'm
1:46:33like no I think our messed up actions
1:46:36come from our false core that we have
1:46:39created so if we can find a way to give
1:46:41shame the boot you see I don't think I
1:46:43don't believe anymore that there is any
1:46:45place for shame there is no place for
1:46:48shame in a healing environment people
1:46:51will use shame to manipulate Behavior
1:46:53they'll they'll use shame you know to
1:46:55get whatever they want to get out of a
1:46:57certain situation but to me if if shame
1:47:01was to never be present uh in this world
1:47:04again I don't think we would all go
1:47:06crazy killing each other or doing crimes
1:47:08and things like that we would begin to
1:47:11really discover who we truly the beauty
1:47:14uh that's really in the core of of every
1:47:18human being and and I might go with
1:47:21every creature I mean shoot it's not
1:47:22hard in a dog we see that a dog dog gets
1:47:25kicked around in all kinds of abuse and
1:47:28the dog is like this image of
1:47:30unconditional love and I know you can
1:47:31have breakdowns in these analogies so I
1:47:33won't go that much further but I will
1:47:36just the risk of repeating myself again
1:47:39again when we can when we can give zame
1:47:42the
1:47:43boot we have a chance of really
1:47:46discovering who we are and what our what
1:47:49our potential is but once again our
1:47:52potential is not Who We Are Who We Are
1:47:55is this and when we Rec because once we
1:47:57say our potential is who we are then we
1:48:00start comparing ourselves with others
1:48:02and so that comparison with others is
1:48:04what is so potentially damaging both to
1:48:08relationships to peace to to to
1:48:12cooperation efforts it moves us into a
1:48:14competitive mode which is winner and
1:48:16loser type of thing and again shame and
1:48:19all of that world is there so once once
1:48:22we recognize that yes behavior is
1:48:24important but you are more important so
1:48:27what you do irregardless of whether it
1:48:30gives you the results you want or not
1:48:31you're doing it because it is the loving
1:48:34thing to do instead of at the end of the
1:48:36day you know someone saying how was your
1:48:38day and like oh was really productive I
1:48:40understand that we really value
1:48:41productivity and stuff but if what you
1:48:44know at the end of the day oh my
1:48:45goodness there was so much loving
1:48:47kindness in my day today I saw this I
1:48:50had somebody do that to me you know I
1:48:52was able together we partnered and and
1:48:54and you and you start using that as your
1:48:58new yard stick you know loving
1:49:01kindness
1:49:03um I think the yeah I think that it's
1:49:09Limitless well we've been gone for an
1:49:11hour and 50 minutes now so I I probably
1:49:13should cut it but we're definitely going
1:49:14to have to do it again um love to
1:49:17appreciate this opportunity to talk with
1:49:19you I always you know when trying to
1:49:21figure out and articulate something
1:49:23always learning something new and so
1:49:25thanks for the opportunity man yeah
1:49:27thank
1:49:29you thank you so much to Carl for coming
1:49:32on the show and letting me dive into his
1:49:35life with him in such a real am raw way
1:49:37he's obviously a super inspiring
1:49:39individual has been one of my closer
1:49:40mentors over the past 10 years and so
1:49:43just wanted to say thank you so much
1:49:44Carl for coming on if you want to check
1:49:46out his book make sure to do so show
1:49:47notes are below the book is called I'm
1:49:49not leaving by Carl Wilkins you can
1:49:50search out on Amazon or anywhere and I'm
1:49:52sure you'll be able to find it um yeah
1:49:55really just amazing book I could not
1:49:57recommend it enough uh to kind of have
1:49:59the in the shoes moments for a lot of
1:50:01things that he's experienced so make
1:50:02sure to go check that out and all the
1:50:04links to his social media and things are
1:50:06in the show note descriptions as well if
1:50:08you made it to this point in the podcast
1:50:10just want to say thank you so much for
1:50:11listening I really do appreciate it if
1:50:13you want to like comment subscribe
1:50:15review any and all of those things on
1:50:17any of the platforms it helps to
1:50:18continue to grow this show if you want
1:50:20to help support it I really would
1:50:21appreciate it you can can sign up for
1:50:23that at the stupid questions. show where
1:50:25it says support the show you can sign up
1:50:26to give as little as $1 a month uh to
1:50:29help put these on they're not free but I
1:50:31do enjoy them greatly so thank you so
1:50:33much and we will catch you guys in the
1:50:35next one see you

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