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Episode 04: Anthony Charles Graves - Innocence Found — Transcript

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0:01[Music]
0:15[Applause]
0:16[Music]
0:19all right anthony well i
0:20first want to just say what a pleasure
0:21it is to to meet you to get to
0:23have met you a little bit over the last
0:25you know half an hour or so
0:26and and thanks for inviting me into your
0:28home uh it's wonderful to
0:30uh to be able to have this convo with
0:32you and welcome to the show
0:34oh wow thank you man thank you for
0:36having me on your show
0:37my pleasure uh i would love to start i
0:40know there's a
0:40variety of different topics that we have
0:42talked about getting into
0:44and i'm sure we will talk about but i i
0:46always like to start at the beginning
0:48and uh introduce people by
0:51their own story of themselves and
0:54maybe to start we can begin with who you
0:58were as a young man who you were as a
1:00young boy what's your story where do you
1:02come from
1:03how do you explain the first years of
1:06your life before
1:08the hell that you ran into later in your
1:10life which we will get into
1:12but uh prior to that who were you
1:15well i was just a young kid man i grew
1:18up in
1:19a small town bruno texas
1:23and i love sports i i was the oldest
1:27of five siblings um my mother
1:30uh worked uh to take care of us
1:33my father uh well he worked but
1:38you know we didn't have that great of a
1:39relationship but i was just that kid man
1:42i was a positive kid man that loved
1:44sports
1:44i was very good in sports you know i was
1:46a leader i could tell that because
1:48a lot of people are following me right
1:51uh
1:52always loved being around me so i
1:54recognized my leadership abilities early
1:56on in my life
1:57but uh i became a father at an early age
2:00i was just turning 15 when i had my
2:02first son
2:02uh shock of my life because it was the
2:05first time i ever had sex
2:07yeah yeah it was a shock of my life you
2:09would think if he was looking on the
2:11outside that i was just some young
2:12pervert
2:13but it was my first time ever having sex
2:15and the girl it was her first time and
2:16we got pregnant
2:18and uh you know i cried man like a baby
2:20because i was only 15 and i
2:22you know what my world and my peers are
2:24going to think about me
2:26but you know at the end of the day i i
2:28stepped up and
2:30accepted my responsibility as a young
2:32dad i took care of my son
2:33i uh ended up going to work while i've
2:36been in school
2:37uh to take care of my son i ended up my
2:41last year school
2:42quitting school and going and getting my
2:44ged the couple of months after because i
2:46was working full-time
2:48to raise my son and i chose to
2:52provide for him so i basically chose his
2:55life over mine at the early age and i
2:57don't regret it
2:58and uh yeah man so after that
3:03i ended up with two other kids i have a
3:05total of three boys
3:06uh they were all young uh when my life
3:10changed
3:12but i i ended up just working i worked
3:14as a
3:15machinist for several years
3:19and i just had a regular life man i was
3:21i was doing what i thought what are the
3:23right things
3:24uh you know i had i had my family
3:28i had a lot of love i had a lot of
3:30friends
3:32community support me and i just felt
3:34like i was overall
3:35a good person yeah and then my life
3:37changed
3:38it's the second time you mentioned that
3:40phrase your life changed
3:42why don't we start with maybe the moment
3:45for you
3:46where you realized that something had
3:49happened or something was brewing
3:52that might really affect
3:56or derail or ruin your life what was the
4:00person who came to visit you whether it
4:02was a police officer or someone else
4:04where it triggered in your brain
4:08this is a very serious situation i'm in
4:10now oh wow man
4:12you know that was a process because uh
4:16so let me let me just let me start off
4:18and and
4:19explain to your audience uh the nature
4:22of this story
4:23a crime had taken place and six people
4:27were murdered uh an entire family
4:30four of those people were children the
4:31age of 10 one was a 16 year old teenage
4:35daughter and there was a 45 year old
4:37grandmother
4:39and they were shot stabbed blunging to
4:41death
4:42gasoline was poured all over their
4:43bodies and the house was burned down
4:46in an obvious attempt to cover up the
4:47crime okay
4:49and so imagine the next day in this
4:51little small town
4:53of about two to three thousand people
4:57hearing about what happened to in their
5:00community
5:01that was outraged so much so that the
5:03male that little community came out the
5:05next day in the papers and said
5:07whoever had done that crime didn't even
5:08deserve a trial that they should be
5:10caught and hung
5:12and that's kind of the way they pursued
5:13the case because a week later
5:16that was they had the funeral and uh the
5:19texas rangers was there
5:23while they were there a young man showed
5:24up and he had bandages on a wrapped
5:26around his head and on his
5:28hand as though he had been in a fire
5:31so he immediately became the person of
5:33interest to the texas rangers
5:35and after the funeral they walked up to
5:37him and asked if they could talk with
5:38him
5:39he agreed so they followed him home him
5:42and his wife
5:42and once they got home
5:45he got in the police vehicle with them
5:48and they took him to the dps office
5:49where
5:50they interrogate this young man over 14
5:53hours
5:54now no one really knows everything that
5:57the young man was saying
5:58but at the end of it they told him that
6:01they didn't think that he did this crime
6:02by himself and they wanted him to give
6:04the name of
6:05a person who had done it with him and
6:07they would let him go
6:08because they wanted the other person
6:10because the other person was supposed to
6:11have done the bad acts
6:13so uh when this opportunity to save this
6:17young man
6:18or when this opportunity was for him to
6:20save himself
6:22he made up a lie and along the way
6:26he called my name and said that i was
6:28involved in a crime with him
6:30why did he call my name well according
6:32to the young man
6:33is that when they were on their way to
6:35the dps office
6:37he thought he'd seen a jeep coming off
6:39the freeway onto the feeder
6:41and there were four young black men in
6:43it and he thought one of them was me
6:45so when they got to the dps office and
6:47they started interrogating and then they
6:49told him they just want him to give the
6:50name of someone else that did it and
6:52they would let him go
6:53he said just call my name because he
6:54thought he had just seen me and then
6:56they asked him
6:57for the story and he gave him like seven
6:59different stories
7:00and once they he gave them a story that
7:03fit their theory
7:04they turn around and rest and charge
7:05them with capital murder and then they
7:07come knock on my door
7:09well actually it was my neighbor that
7:10knocked on my door several hours later
7:12this is a sunday morning
7:13about 11am i'll never forget i just
7:16waking up
7:18and my neighbor knocking on my door and
7:21he was like i opened the door and his
7:24name was mike and he's like hey man the
7:25police looking for you
7:27and i was like the police looking for me
7:29for what he said i don't know man but
7:31they just asked me if that was your
7:32vehicle out there
7:34so make a long story short i thanked him
7:36but in my mind i'm trying to figure out
7:38why would the police
7:39be looking for me so i called my auntie
7:42because i feel like my auntie
7:45i'll go to a home every day and if the
7:46police was looking for me they would
7:48have to have gone by there because
7:49that's my routine
7:51so when i called my auntie and i asked
7:52her hey had the police come out
7:54by looking for me she said no i said
7:57well mike just told me that the police
7:59looking for me
8:00she said well why don't you just call
8:01the police and find out what's going on
8:04so i i said all right and i hung up and
8:06i decided well
8:08instead of calling the police i'm gonna
8:10go look for the police i put a shirt on
8:12i went downstairs and i walked outside
8:14to look for the police
8:16and when the police pulled up i stopped
8:20police get out of his vehicle he looks
8:22at me asked me my name i tell him
8:24he asked me for some idea i showed to
8:26him and then he told me that he had to
8:28take me to the station that some
8:30officers want to talk to me
8:31but i'm asking him can you tell me what
8:33for because i'm thinking this may be a
8:35ticket roundup but i don't have a ticket
8:38out so i i don't know what to think
8:41why would the police be looking for me
8:43so by this time my neighbor walk outside
8:45mike and he's telling me he said hey man
8:46uh
8:47no no no when he walks outside i'm
8:49telling him hey
8:50mike this officer said i have to go to
8:52police station for something but
8:54my mom on the way home could you let her
8:56know until i
8:57i should be right back home because i
8:59don't know why
9:00i'm being uh having to go to the police
9:02station but i know i haven't done
9:04nothing wrong
9:05so it's comfortable for me to say until
9:07i should be right back home i don't want
9:09her to worry
9:11but that's just how not how it worked
9:13out
9:14because when i got in that that police
9:18vehicle with that officer and he took me
9:19to the police station and he
9:22and we get there and then he walks me
9:24into the police station into the booking
9:26room and asked me to take everything out
9:28of my pockets and have a seat
9:30i sat there and nobody was talking to me
9:33for about 15-20 minutes it's just
9:35officers just walking in and out of the
9:37booking room when nobody said nothing to
9:38me
9:39so i started asking officers hey man can
9:41somebody tell me why i'm here
9:42because it's a sunday and i just i'm
9:45ready to go because
9:46i have plans you know this is this is
9:48sunday
9:49and uh nobody would say nothing to me
9:52and then the texas ranger the magistrate
9:55walks in there
9:57asked me to stand up and begin me
9:59reading me my rights
10:01when i began re reading me my rights
10:04at the end they told me you're being
10:06charged with capital to murder
10:09and i have no bond that's when i knew
10:13this is serious because up until then
10:16i just thought okay well they just
10:20that's a ticket or something but
10:23they just told me i'm being charged with
10:25capital murder
10:28that's when i knew they did it was
10:29serious that's what i knew was serious
10:31man
10:35that's the start it's certainly not the
10:37end that's actually just the beginning
10:38of what ended up becoming an enormous
10:41part of the rest of your life
10:44that's a sunday afternoon that changed
10:47the course of everything for you
10:50what's next what in sitting here today
10:55is important for you to remember what
10:58happened
10:59in terms of your psychology in terms of
11:02legally
11:04with the rest of your story it sounds
11:06like you you you weren't able to
11:08post a bond or weren't able to
11:11get out so what what happened next what
11:13happened is that the american criminal
11:15justice system failed me
11:16and my family terribly horribly
11:20so much so that they almost killed me
11:23because when they arrested me man i
11:24stayed in jail two and a half years
11:27waiting on trial begging these people to
11:29take me to trial because in my mind i
11:30just wanted to get to trial
11:32let the troop come out so i can go home
11:34i've been in jail two and a half years
11:36for something i know absolutely nothing
11:37about
11:39and finally they decided they're gonna
11:40give me a trial but what i didn't know
11:43they gave us a change of venue because
11:45of so much publicity
11:47but what i didn't know the change of
11:48venue was where they had
11:50tried another capital murder and won
11:53it was the only other capital murder
11:55that they ever tried and won
11:57what i didn't know is also the cat the
12:00town that they were sending me to
12:03had a history of racism right
12:06i didn't know this and i just
12:12i just want to do whatever i i need i
12:15have to do
12:16so that the truth can come out and i can
12:18go home i don't care what you sending me
12:20what we're going to do this
12:21at my focus is on the truth coming out
12:24so i can go home
12:26that's it but along the way
12:29i had a prosecutor who was over here
12:33cutting corners closing doors cheating
12:36lying doing every and anything he can to
12:39secure a conviction
12:40against an innocent person i didn't know
12:44this
12:45because i'm thinking that everybody just
12:47want the truth
12:49so i just want to get to court so that
12:51can happen
12:52i didn't know that they were just trying
12:54to win a case
12:57that they were seeking a conviction and
12:59not the truth
13:01i didn't know this it sounds like the
13:03authorities from the very beginning
13:06concocted this idea that this could not
13:08have been an act that
13:09happened alone that they had this theory
13:12that it was a two-person
13:14um two people were participating in this
13:16mass murder
13:18where did that come from and during that
13:21two and a half years when you're waiting
13:23for trial
13:24tell me about what's happening with you
13:27internally what how you're trying to
13:30help yourself during that
13:32period to no avail without the ability
13:34of getting out of prison
13:35right well with me
13:40my mindset is to cooperate you're 110
13:42percent
13:43because i'm innocent and the
13:46more i cooperate the quicker this thing
13:48can be over with so i can go home
13:50that's my mind but days turn into weeks
13:54weeks turn into months months turn into
13:57years
13:58and now i'm left to wonder are they
14:01really wanting the truth
14:02or they're just trying to convict this
14:04young black man who they now know how
14:06don't have any resources to defend
14:08himself
14:09i have the truth but that's not good
14:12enough
14:13not in our criminal justice system if
14:15you're innocent
14:17do not think that that alone will keep
14:19you out of prison
14:21i'm here to tell you that's not true
14:23it's your resources
14:25and i didn't have any of those i had no
14:28resources
14:29i was a young black man who had been
14:31accused of a crime
14:33who had to go into a courtroom where the
14:35judge was white
14:36while the prosecutor team was white and
14:38why the jury was white
14:39it was just me and my black attorney was
14:41in there trying to convince a white
14:43group of people
14:45that i didn't do the things that they're
14:46accusing me of
14:48and i think we can all
14:51feel very confident in knowing how this
14:54turned out
14:56right i ended up losing 18.5 years of my
14:59life
15:00trying to convince white people who
15:02didn't know me
15:03that i was innocent
15:06i had alibi witnesses but i still
15:10spent 18 and a half years in prison
15:1312 and a half on death row with two
15:16execution dates
15:17and witnessing over 400 people being
15:19murdered around me
15:22that's my story yeah that's what
15:25happened
15:26after they kept me two and a half years
15:28they finally took me to trial
15:30and they convicted me with no evidence
15:34but practically an all-white jury except
15:36for one black man
15:38who the jury to be the foreman of the
15:40juror
15:42i never forget that when they picked the
15:45foreign of the jury
15:48let me just go back so when i get to
15:50anger
15:51the first thing we do when we start a
15:53trial you have what is known as kabvarda
15:56picking the jury that's void so anytime
15:59any of your audience will get a
16:01notification from the courts to show up
16:03for jury it's called water picking up
16:06the jury now you got to remember that
16:09those people come off the streets
16:10they're laborers they might be
16:12professionals in another field but not
16:14in criminal justice
16:15they know nothing about the criminal
16:17justice system
16:19but they're good samaritans they have a
16:22responsibility to make sure that our
16:23system works
16:25so they show up and they're jurors
16:29and we're involved with now we're in
16:31what is called vardar
16:34and i never forget man that so during
16:36vardy
16:38each potential jury is put up on the
16:39witness stand and examined by
16:42the defense attorney and the prosecutor
16:44they get to ask them questions about
16:46how they feel about certain things
16:48revolving around
16:52criminal justice and i remember when
16:55every potential juror would get up on
16:58that wit
16:59on that stand and my attorney would ask
17:02him
17:03how do you feel about my client mr gray
17:05sitting in here today
17:07seven out of 10 of them would say well
17:10he must have done something otherwise
17:11you wouldn't have him here
17:14these people became my jury who had
17:17already determined that i must have done
17:19something otherwise law enforcement
17:21wouldn't have me here
17:23that's the uphill battle you have to
17:25clam to prove your innocence
17:27which is not the law yeah because you're
17:29supposed to be innocent until proven
17:31guilty but my
17:32jurors sit there and said this man must
17:34not have done something otherwise you
17:36wouldn't have him here
17:38and they was they was selected to judge
17:41me now
17:43but they already judged me and they had
17:45already told you that
17:48but see we got what is called in our law
17:52rehabilitation of a juror
17:55see that alone is enough to get to
17:57disqualify that juror
18:00but the judge can rehabilitate him by
18:02asking him one simple question
18:05can you follow the law well what juror
18:08going to sit up there and say they can't
18:10follow the law
18:11so the jurors say yes i can follow the
18:13law oh
18:15well then you're a rehabilitated juror
18:17and you're qualified
18:18to serve on the jury even though i heard
18:20you say that this man must have done
18:22something otherwise he wouldn't be here
18:24because you can follow the law your
18:26qualified juror
18:28those were the people judging me now
18:30yeah
18:32tell me about the night that you were
18:34accused of being a part of this heinous
18:36crime
18:37what were you doing what was the story
18:39you were mentioning alibi witnesses
18:41people who could corroborate your story
18:43what was the what was the defense that
18:45was presented at trial what was the
18:47truth of what you actually were doing
18:49the evening of that
18:50well let me just ask a question
18:53and i think we can sum this up
18:57on a monday night at 2 30 in the morning
19:00where would you be
19:02you don't sleep you'll be asleep and who
19:04will be there with you
19:06my girlfriend or i'd be by myself okay
19:08okay
19:09so that night i was at home with my
19:11family
19:12my brother my sister my girlfriend
19:17all night long they were my alibi
19:20witness they knew exactly where
19:22i was matter of fact my brother stepped
19:24over me that night to make sure that the
19:26door was locked
19:27because me and my girlfriend fell asleep
19:29on on the floor
19:30made a pattern on the floor but when it
19:33when it was time for my brother them to
19:35testify to my whereabouts
19:37the prosecutor made it seem like that's
19:39my family they would lie for me
19:40he discredit them he discredited the
19:43truth because he said that was my family
19:45well who the hell would know where you
19:47are at 2 30 in the morning
19:49your family right so when my family
19:52could get ready to testify to where
19:54i was the prosecutor made them
19:57seem as though they just lined up their
19:59brother
20:01and the white jury that he that looked
20:03like him believed him
20:06so my brother said not telling the truth
20:08became liars
20:09yeah talk to me about the attempt
20:13at the evidence that was presented
20:16against you right there were these
20:17theories there were these stories that
20:19were that the prosecution had come up
20:20with
20:21related to your guilt how did they frame
20:24this what were they able to present as
20:26evidence to attempt to convict you
20:28nothing robert carter the guy that lied
20:30on me
20:31who they said is that can you point out
20:34the guy in the courtroom
20:36that did this crying with you because
20:37they had him testify
20:40he said yes they said well point him out
20:42and he pointed at me but he didn't look
20:43at me
20:45and then they came up with this theory
20:46about a knife that i owned
20:49two years previous that uh a employer of
20:52mine had given to me as a gift it was a
20:54little
20:55oh man it's a flimsy night
20:59knife kit that he had gotten two years
21:01prior
21:02so they go and talk to this man and he
21:05tells them this
21:06but he tell them i've never seen him
21:08carry any weapon and i played softball
21:10with him i was his coach i hold hell
21:12things for him
21:13never because it was a souvenir that he
21:15had given to me that was cheap
21:18well they never found they got his but
21:20they never found
21:22the one that i had on but they said hmm
21:25the one he got
21:26fixed the womb so the one that he gave
21:28mr grace was is the murder
21:30weapon although we never found it
21:33although we never tested it although
21:35these other knives that have been
21:37brought into the uh uh
21:39courtroom and used by the defense all
21:42those all these other knives fit
21:44we still think that knife that mr graves
21:47had two years ago was probably that
21:48knife
21:50that's it the other co-defendant the
21:53the man who testified against you said
21:55pointed at you but wouldn't look at you
21:56in court yes
21:58who is he what was your relationship
22:00with him prior to the
22:01no relationship at all his name was mr
22:04robert carter he was married to a cousin
22:06of mine that i grew up with
22:07but you know we were grown people you
22:09know i mean she was my cousin but we
22:11we wasn't like you know best friends
22:14right life goes on but she was my cousin
22:17i guess he knew
22:19uh from her talking about her family
22:21tree who i was
22:22but that's it we never had no we we
22:25didn't have no kind of relationship
22:27he couldn't even tell you what they
22:28called me on the streets yeah
22:31you know he knew about me from his wife
22:34that's it and that's sad because
22:38a man who did not know me our criminal
22:41justice system allowed him to almost
22:43take my life
22:46to save his own you indicated earlier
22:49too that part of the incentive for him
22:51to create this story was some sort of a
22:54potential deal that he was being offered
22:56by the by law enforcement yes did that
22:58hold
22:59what was he being in in reality and
23:02eventually what
23:03what kind of an offer was he presented
23:05with for testifying against you
23:08oh well okay the first offer that he was
23:10presented with for
23:12lying on me initially was that they
23:14would let him go they just want the
23:15other guy
23:16that's what made him lie because he
23:18thought they would let him go they
23:20turned around
23:20and then charged him with capital murder
23:22after they got him to lie
23:24and then when we get to court two and a
23:26half years later
23:28what they had done is already had
23:30arrested and charged his wife with
23:32capital murder
23:33put it in jail for two months and then
23:34released her own pr
23:36above personal recognized bond and then
23:39told her to move forward and forget
23:41about the case because there's no
23:42statute of limitations
23:44and then they goes to mr carter and says
23:47mr carter
23:48you continue to give the story against
23:49mr graves or we're going to go back
23:51after your wife
23:52so mr carter said that he felt like he
23:54was between a rock and a hard place
23:56here it is he knew that mr graves was
23:59innocent that he had lied on mr graves
24:01he knew that his wife was innocent but
24:03if he don't continue to allow mr graves
24:05they're going to go back after his wife
24:07so he said he would head on and lied on
24:09mr graves
24:11now the deal that they also made with
24:13him was that
24:14because they already convicted him of
24:16capital murder was that if his case got
24:18overturned it would not seek the death
24:19penalty against him again
24:22but he had to give this story that
24:26implicated
24:27mr gray
24:30meanwhile you're going through this
24:32right you're sitting in the courtroom
24:33every day you're sitting in jail and
24:34then in a courtroom
24:38i think to a lot of people who are
24:39listening to this this is
24:42near a worst-case scenario that anyone
24:44can possibly envision for
24:46how their life is unfolding and you live
24:48through that yes
24:51talk to me about just as a human being
24:54what was going on inside of you in the
24:56two years leading up to the trial
24:58during the trial and then when you
25:01actually were convicted
25:02what in the hell were you experiencing
25:04during that time
25:06naivete i was just naive to believe that
25:09innocence
25:10enough was going to vindicate me
25:13i was naive to believe that innocence
25:16enough
25:17was gonna allow me to go home so
25:20i was being patient i was being very
25:23cooperative
25:24i just wanted to go home and whatever
25:27they needed out of me
25:28i was willing to give just so i can go
25:30home because i don't
25:32i shouldn't be in jail i'm not a
25:34criminal
25:36but i'm sitting here two and a half
25:38years
25:39i'm reading the bible i'm praying
25:42i'm doing all the right things i'm
25:43cooperating
25:45and yet they're still trying to kill me
25:50and here's the in the ticker is
25:53and they know i'm innocent
25:56because the man has been telling them
25:58this we just didn't know he had been
26:00telling him that
26:02mr carter been telling him from day one
26:04after they arrested him he lied
26:06mr grace was innocent that's when they
26:09went after his wife
26:11and then put in jail for two months
26:13released and told her keep going forward
26:16no statute on limit no statute
26:18limitation of capital just to clarify
26:19what you just said
26:20right now right to reiterate that
26:24in the privacy of private conversation
26:26outside of the court of law
26:29that man is telling the prosecution or
26:31people in law enforcement
26:33that he had concocted this entire story
26:35against you that you had nothing to do
26:37with this
26:37yes and the state continued with its
26:40prosecution against you as an individual
26:42yes is that correct that's absolutely
26:44correct
26:46absolutely it's documented absolutely
26:48correct this man was telling them
26:50anthony graves is an innocent man i lied
26:53on this man this man knows nothing
26:56that wasn't enough they still pursued me
26:59why i say young black man in a rural
27:02town in texas
27:05i got a racist prosecutor
27:08you think he gonna do right by me he got
27:11two
27:11young black men in his crosshairs right
27:13now
27:15you think he gonna let one of us go
27:19two black man's on one day is a good day
27:21for a race
27:23he had a good day he had a good year
27:27they awarded him prosecutor of the year
27:29by wrongfully convicted me
27:32you think that he was just gonna let me
27:34go because this man was trying to tell
27:35him the truth
27:38no this went on for 18 and a half years
27:42they tried to murder me twice knowing
27:45that i was innocent
27:48i had to witness over 400 men getting
27:50executed around me
27:52that i was growing up with because they
27:54put me on death row
27:56for some i don't know nothing about and
27:59this is how i had to live man
28:00yeah knowing that i was innocent
28:04knowing that they knew i was innocent
28:06but they wasn't telling the rest of the
28:08world
28:09they weren't telling the rest of the
28:10world but they knew
28:13the prosecutor knew that's why today
28:17his ass is disbarred yeah because of
28:20what he did to me
28:22yeah that was eventually revealed right
28:24i mean this information eventually
28:25surfaced yes
28:26this man as you mentioned has been
28:28disbarred yes
28:30the day on which you were convicted
28:31right i mean there is something
28:33cinematic about the american justice
28:35system in criminal cases where you
28:37stand up and hear from the foreman
28:41what the result has been of the of the
28:43jury
28:46talk about what that day was like for
28:48you i'm wondering if at that moment
28:50that naivete that cooperation the
28:53high-spiritedness
28:54of the young man who grew up in this
28:57state
28:58was still optimistic that the truth
29:02would prevail
29:02or were you scared for your life at that
29:05moment
29:06no i wasn't optimistic at that point
29:09uh because what i've seen the setup i
29:12seen a
29:13all-white prosecutor team i seen a white
29:17judge i seen 11 white
29:21people in my jury box and i seen one
29:23black man if they made the formal
29:25that they really built up because he got
29:28a purple heart out of the military
29:30i heard the prosecutor really praising
29:32him i knew then
29:33i was in trouble and why because i've
29:36never seen
29:37why 11 white people would be so willing
29:39to follow one black man
29:41that they would elect him to follow him
29:45i knew then what they were gonna do they
29:48were finna convict me before they even
29:50hear this case
29:51and it was gonna make the jury the face
29:53of that black man
29:54and that black man did not understand
29:58that because he had become the foreman
30:01he can now
30:02be he cannot be the only person to vote
30:04not guilty
30:06because they would think he's playing
30:07the race card so he became
30:09our worst juror because they took his
30:13power from him
30:14and he did not understand what was going
30:16on
30:17they played him up they talked about his
30:19accomplishments
30:21they really played him up and then they
30:23suck him after me
30:24they told him you're going to be the
30:26former we're going to put your face as
30:27the former and you're going to go and
30:29you're going to help us convict this
30:30innocent black man
30:32he didn't even know that but that's the
30:34role he played
30:36and i wish i could ever see him one day
30:38and i would tell him
30:40out of all the people it was you
30:44that i thought would do the right thing
30:46based on history
30:48based on our history i thought you would
30:51hold them accountable
30:53and it was you who was my worst juror
30:57[ __ ] you that's what i would tell you
31:02yeah
31:04you get convicted of a crime like that
31:06as you i'm sure well know when it
31:08happened
31:09your life is over right and
31:12you're probably realizing at the time
31:14that not only are you going to lose a
31:16lot of time
31:16you're probably going to lose your life
31:19in this
31:19yes how did you
31:24possibly react to that reality
31:27right you've mentioned 18 years a couple
31:29times during this conversation which is
31:30a lifetime
31:32but it isn't your entire life that's why
31:34we're having this conversation now
31:38how did you
31:41survive how did you
31:45what was your response how did you what
31:48was your reaction to
31:50that conviction and your first
31:54time in jail your your sentencing your
31:56realization of your new reality
31:58well first of all i couldn't believe it
32:02i mean i'm a well-loved person
32:07many friends i try to do the right thing
32:11trying to be a good father and all of a
32:14sudden
32:15just like that i've been convicted and
32:18sentenced to death
32:19i don't even know i don't even know
32:22the people they were killed i don't know
32:25nothing
32:26so so so i just could not wrap my mind
32:30around how my life got so caught up into
32:32something like this
32:34the crime happened in a town i don't
32:35even live in don't even go to
32:39but yet here i am i've just been
32:41convicted
32:42of a horrible crime of killing a family
32:46a black family this is crazy
32:50so my mind will not even let me go past
32:52the thought of this is just crazy but
32:56reality slowly starts seeping in as the
32:58days turn the weeks and the weeks turn
33:00the months
33:01in the months turning years these people
33:04really aren't gonna kill me
33:06they're really gonna kill me and
33:08nobody's to say anything
33:10nobody's going to stand up for me my
33:13family's going to have to deal with this
33:14for the rest of their life
33:15what's going to happen to my mama she
33:17know her son is innocent
33:19who's going to be there for her what
33:20about my children these people are
33:23really gonna kill
33:24me so if they're gonna kill me
33:27they might do that but i'm gonna let the
33:29whole world know what they're doing
33:32and that's when i started an
33:33organization overseas
33:35start called join hands for justice
33:37because i was determined to let the
33:39whole world know that the state of texas
33:41is trying to kill an innocent man and i
33:44need your help
33:46and that's what i did that's what i was
33:48thinking
33:49tell me about that right that that at
33:51that time i would have to imagine is one
33:53of your only
33:53last options for resistance against the
33:56circumstance you have found yourself in
33:58in life what did you do who were the
34:01people you connected with when you
34:02started that organization
34:03wow well so anytime
34:07someone is sentenced to debt they have
34:09these
34:10national and international pen pal banks
34:14these are people who just sign up to
34:15write and be friend people who've been
34:17sentenced to debt just to let them know
34:19that there's somebody that care
34:20uh that they're not alone and so when i
34:24reached death row
34:25uh a couple of people wrote to me from
34:27these pen pal banks just introducing
34:28themselves and just say that you know
34:30they just want to get to know who i am
34:31and stuff
34:33and we started building relationships
34:34like that and i ended up man with
34:37building relationships with people from
34:38all over europe
34:40germany france sweden switzerland norway
34:44italy you name it people started writing
34:47me you know we started building
34:48relationships and they started learning
34:50my story
34:51right and then they started researching
34:52and they started and as they come to
34:54know my story they was like appalled
34:57and it was they couldn't believe that
34:58this would happen in texas
35:00in the united states you know this is
35:03the united states of america
35:06and this is how they're treated they're
35:08citizens
35:09so there was a paul so they all started
35:11getting together and trying to figure
35:12out how they
35:13how they could help me they started
35:15fundraising they started holding events
35:17they started reaching out to media
35:19and finally they got in touch with media
35:22over here
35:23and an independent investigator
35:26journalist came and visited me and
35:30after we talked for about two hours she
35:32was so blown away
35:34that she went to innocent project mr
35:37david dow
35:38and said i think y'all need to get
35:41involved in this case
35:43and that's how things start changing for
35:46me
35:48but make no mistake this state had every
35:50intention
35:51of killing an innocent man and was gonna
35:54bury that
35:55without you guys ever knowing it or even
35:58even debating about it
36:01by the time this investigative
36:02journalist shows up
36:04and talks to you interviews you talk to
36:06you for a couple of hours which i think
36:07eventually
36:07ends up in this long form piece that
36:09articulates what had happened to you to
36:12a much wider audience in the u.s
36:16you had been in prison for an extended
36:17period of time by that point yes
36:19how long had you been in
36:22i had been in prison uh eight years
36:26before this journalist came and talked
36:28to me i had done
36:30another show called democracy now with
36:32amy goodman
36:34and uh so the word has started getting
36:36out about my case
36:37but it really didn't break until this
36:40invest this
36:41investigative journalist came and talked
36:42to me i can't think of her name i would
36:44love to think of her name
36:46but uh yeah she came and talked to me
36:49eight years after i was there
36:50i had already been there eight years i
36:52had already experienced of about
36:552 300 people getting executed around me
36:57that i come to know at that time so this
36:59has gotten real serious
37:01right i've now had a chance to think
37:03about my own mortality
37:04you know uh what i would want to eat if
37:08you know if it got to that point what i
37:10want my last speech to be if it got to
37:12that point you know
37:13i've done all of this by now right
37:15because
37:17because even though i'm innocent
37:21i'm seeing so much injustice around me
37:24i'm seeing
37:24other guys cases that have little to no
37:27evidence
37:28and they're still getting executed i'm
37:30hearing guys profess their innocence
37:32and they're still getting executed are
37:35witnessing guys mentally ill
37:36mentally challenged and they still get
37:39executed
37:40i'm seeing these young guys come down at
37:4117 years old
37:43and until the supreme court out loud
37:45executing
37:47children they were getting executed so i
37:50was within every everybody getting
37:51executed
37:52for whatever claims they had and so now
37:55i'm looking at me
37:57and my innocent claim and i'm saying
38:00that's a good chance i'm gonna get
38:01executed
38:03so if that's gonna happen then i may
38:06need to make sure that my mom my kids
38:10and the rest of the world know the truth
38:13they may carry me out in a pine box but
38:16they're gonna cap but it's gonna be a
38:17bunch of murderers carrying me
38:19because i'm gonna let the world know
38:20they just murdered me for something i
38:22knew absolutely nothing about
38:25that was my mindset this is a part of
38:28american
38:29culture death row inmates right that so
38:32few people
38:33will ever know anything about will ever
38:35visit will ever
38:37meet someone who has lived there and you
38:38lived that life
38:40for people who are listening to this
38:41that are curious about what that
38:43experience is like you were talking
38:44about all these people that you just
38:46rattled off who
38:47you knew who were were executed what's
38:50the experience
38:51like of living in that kind of a climate
38:54right and it i know there were a couple
38:57times where you were scheduled to be
38:59executed
39:00and it didn't take place talk to me
39:01about all of that
39:03well i mean you know yeah i was
39:05scheduled twice to be executed and thank
39:07god it didn't take place
39:09uh otherwise all texans would have my
39:11blood on their hands
39:13um but yeah i seen guys that
39:16uh spending their last days man
39:20and finding peace within themselves
39:24after so much chaos uh
39:27in the environment they've lived in for
39:29so many years
39:30guys this situation is so
39:34devastating the conditions are so
39:36horrible
39:37that i was with the guys willing to drop
39:39the appeal so they can get executed
39:42because they just didn't want to endure
39:44anymore of this suffering
39:47that's a hard thing man i i mean there
39:50were conversations i would have
39:53with someone say man i wouldn't want no
39:55life sinners
39:57because the license mean that i would
39:58have to be here for the rest of my life
40:00to like die that's a death sentence
40:02he said i really take my chance on death
40:04row follow my appeals
40:05if i don't get out that way then they
40:07just kill me i don't have to spend the
40:08rest of my life just being down here
40:10like this
40:11what are the conditions like in there
40:12what's the day-to-day life
40:14of somebody who's on death row well i
40:16can't give you a picture but what i can
40:18tell you is that what you think hell is
40:21that's death row every day so what you
40:23think your worst hell is
40:25that's death throw every day every hour
40:28of
40:28every day that's how that that is the
40:31conditions
40:33hell i'm talking about
40:36when you have men chrome in
40:40cutting their throat slashing their
40:43wrists
40:44dropping their pills
40:48just want to die not because they're
40:52guilty
40:54although that could be part of it but
40:56the conditions
40:58being treated sub-human all day every
41:01day
41:02being told what to do when to do it how
41:03to do it
41:05no television no telephone it's four
41:08walls closing in on you 23 hours a day
41:10that you in there eight by ten cage
41:14that's it a cage you're in now
41:17all day every day on the weekends you're
41:20just there
41:21no shower no nothing monday through
41:24fridays you get one hour out of there
41:26to a bigger space with nothing else in
41:29it
41:30just space then you go back into your
41:32hole
41:33or your cage for the rest of your day
41:36and then they give you a shower for
41:39seven minutes
41:40and then they take you back and that's
41:42your day it's
41:44hell man it's designed
41:47to break a man's will to live
41:50and it's working i've seen it every day
41:54young men young men
41:57crying out in the middle of the night
41:59because they didn't cut their throat
42:01wanting to die these are your children
42:04these are your friends these are the
42:07people that grew up with down the street
42:08from you
42:10church members they're down there on
42:13death row
42:14they're being murdered in your name the
42:17state of texas
42:19you got blood on your hands you got
42:22blood
42:22on your hands and you got to stand up
42:25and do something
42:26or you would continue to have blood on
42:28your hands
42:30we got murderers in office murdering our
42:33citizens
42:34you have to do something with me
42:38and that is to let these stories be told
42:40so that we understand
42:42what is going on in our criminal justice
42:44system yeah
42:48it would seem to me that it would be the
42:50rule that people would lose their mind
42:52in that situation that they would go mad
42:54that they would become suicidal that
42:56they would lose their will
42:57to live what happened to you how were
43:00you doing during that time did that did
43:02you get to that breaking point
43:04no i never got to the point where i
43:06wanted to take my life you know
43:08i was just in that as i say i was too
43:10naive to believe
43:12that at the end of the day my life is
43:15going to end with them putting a needle
43:16in my home for something i didn't do
43:19i was just so naive to believe that that
43:21i had a loan of hope
43:23hope that justice would prevail that's
43:25why i ended up writing my book infinite
43:27hope and calling it that because i
43:29i in the midst of all that chaos i found
43:32a way to stay hopeful
43:34and i think that had to do with putting
43:36something greater than myself above me
43:38so that i can stay focused on it some
43:41people call it god
43:43jehovah or 99 other different names
43:47and that's okay i called it hope
43:51and that's what i had to hold on to and
43:55i stayed focused on that and it allowed
43:58me
44:00to maintain my sanity until i came home
44:05you mentioned earlier that after eight
44:07years an investigative journalist showed
44:08up talked to you for a couple of hours
44:13i'm curious if that is the first domino
44:15that fell
44:16in your mind that began the process that
44:19led you
44:20home looking back i would say yes
44:25but at that time i didn't see it because
44:27nothing transpired
44:29for the next ten and a half years
44:33that was year eight i spent eighteen and
44:35a half years down there
44:37so i didn't see it as the first domino i
44:39just seen it as another interview
44:42but in hindsight it was the first domino
44:45because that was the person that reached
44:46out to the innocent clinic on my behalf
44:49the innocent clinic was doing a
44:53a breakout session and hadn't
44:57invited some journalist students
45:00which is how i get to nicole cassaris
45:03who became my rock
45:06who became the example
45:09of what a lawyer should do with for
45:11their client that they believe it
45:15who became
45:18the angel that god sent down from heaven
45:21to help me
45:27i mean
45:31to sit and have to witness men being
45:35murdered
45:36young men
45:39seeing that they're trying to go after
45:41you and murder you for something you
45:42didn't know anything about
45:46seeing the people in this state lining
45:47up to believe it
45:54man we have a we have a criminal system
45:57in place
46:00it is the biggest criminal that we have
46:02in the state of texas
46:05and it's killing innocent people and
46:08it's because of people like nicole
46:10cassaris and pamela kolov
46:12and so many other great people that that
46:14believe in doing the right thing and
46:16believe in justice and has a
46:18have human kindness in their heart if it
46:21weren't for those people
46:24people like me and 160 some other people
46:27across this country who have come off a
46:29death row
46:30we would all be executed now for crime
46:33we didn't even commit
46:34yeah you mentioned that in retrospect
46:36you do think that that was probably the
46:38first domino that led
46:40even though it took another decade for
46:41you to get out
46:44what happened or what do you think with
46:46these journalists or with the innocence
46:48project
46:50what did they learn about your story
46:54that resonated enough for them for these
46:56people to take on your cause in the way
46:58that they did was it really that there
47:00was no
47:01legitimate evidence against your guilt
47:04was it meeting you and finding you
47:06persuasive
47:07what do you think it was about your
47:09about you
47:10that led them to do what they did on
47:13your behalf i don't think it was nothing
47:14about me
47:15as a matter of fact nicole told me that
47:18when she first started working on my
47:20case
47:20for two years she never even came to see
47:22me because she did not want to be
47:24convinced that i was innocent
47:26just by sitting there looking at me so
47:28she took her time
47:29methodically investigating my case and
47:32that led her to the conclusion that this
47:34man is innocent
47:36and that's when she came down and met me
47:38um
47:40yeah i i i never ever even tried to
47:43convince people that
47:44that was working on my behalf that i was
47:45innocent because i wanted them to come
47:48to that conclusion on their own
47:50okay i never wanted no one that doubt me
47:52so i felt like let the
47:54evidence let the investigation lead them
47:56to the actual truth
47:58and that would be my innocence and
48:00that's the way we approach this thing
48:02and so uh yeah
48:05it wasn't about them meeting me it was
48:07about them
48:08uh investigating the case and realizing
48:12oh my goodness this man is innocent yeah
48:14that's what moved him
48:15yeah i think that's an excellent point
48:17so nicole you mentioned she's a lawyer
48:18right
48:19that was that so you mentioned two women
48:22there nicole and pam
48:23right nicole is a lawyer pam is a
48:25journalist yes
48:27talk to me about both of those women and
48:28what they did for you specifically
48:30wow well i mean
48:34that's uh emotional for me because these
48:37women
48:38practically are the reason why i'm still
48:40breathing today
48:42nicole came into my life
48:45through the innocent project as a
48:47journalist
48:50she learned about my case and for eight
48:53years after
48:54she turned over every rock she talked to
48:57every witness
48:58she drove hundreds of miles
49:02she spent nights in her car outside of
49:03witnesses homes to talk to them
49:07she did every and anything she could
49:11to help save an innocent man's life
49:15that's what alternatives should do
49:17that's what nicole did
49:19that's why i started not it felt a
49:23scholarship in her honor because she is
49:26the optimum
49:27of what an attorney should be pamela
49:30koloff
49:32pamela koloff is a journalist she was
49:34working for
49:35the uh times what you call it the
49:38magazine here
49:39texas texas magazine yeah and uh
49:42she learned about my story through
49:45nicole
49:47and she started investigating and she
49:49started writing
49:50and she wrote up an article
49:54detailing the exact truth
49:59for the first time in my case
50:04this woman really dug into my case
50:08and detailed this source that
50:12everyone read it knew anthony graves was
50:14innocent
50:15and a month later all charges against me
50:18were dismissed
50:20a month later so
50:23this is why i tell you these two women
50:27are angels from heaven that was son to
50:30save an innocent man's life
50:32pamela kolov nicole caspares
50:36are my heroes because they saved my life
50:39they are the reason i'm breathing today
50:43it sounds like nicole did a lot of the
50:45initial leg work and investigation and
50:47then handed over a lot of that
50:49information to pam who then publicized
50:51this
50:51to a massive audience right
50:55you're still sitting behind bars as
50:57they're doing this you're still on death
50:59row
50:59as they're doing this is there a point
51:02during this process where you realize
51:06like holy [ __ ] i there's a chance
51:08something could happen here
51:10that they're getting at the truth
51:12they're getting at an audience people
51:14are realizing what happened that a
51:15mistake was made
51:17what are you thinking as you're in jail
51:18during that time
51:20i'm not thinking any of that you know
51:22i've been
51:23in jail long enough to know the
51:26realities
51:28of this situation and is that regardless
51:31of
51:32being innocent people are dying
51:36people are getting executed and they
51:38have the same claim
51:40so i never got excited
51:43at any information as though this could
51:47be
51:47it this could be would get me back home
51:51i was prepared to die for the truth
51:54because i was going to compromise it
51:56that's what my mind was however this was
51:59going to play out
52:00i was prepared to die for the truth
52:04and that's why i stayed i remember
52:08nicole asked me one day
52:12if the state
52:16agreed to dismiss all the charges
52:17against you
52:19but want you to say that you guilty
52:22would you be willing to do that
52:26and i didn't think about it at all i
52:28already knew
52:31that i would never do anything like that
52:34but she as my attorney had to tell me
52:36everything
52:37and i told nicole if that's what they
52:41will offer me
52:42then they will be feed me in my cell
52:44tonight they're gonna kill me
52:47or they're gonna free me that because
52:49i'm not gonna compromise the truth
52:51and that's where i stood i never got
52:54excited
52:55i never got depressed i was determined
52:58to let the world know what was happening
53:00to me
53:01even if it meant my death i was willing
53:04to die
53:05for the truth so that's why my mind was
53:08the whole 18 and a half years
53:11stand on the truth and be willing to die
53:13for it
53:14that's where i was and then pam's
53:17article comes out
53:18right i mean that it's an astonishing
53:20fact that you just mentioned earlier
53:22that her article comes out and a month
53:23later
53:25all charges are dropped yes talk to me
53:27about that month how in the hell did
53:28that happen so quickly
53:30oh man well i mean because there had
53:33already been
53:34a lot of talk what had happened is they
53:36had uh
53:38several prosecutors had taken this case
53:42and one reason or another they found a
53:44reason to get off
53:46citing health problems um
53:49something to do with the kid but the
53:51reality was
53:53they realized this man was innocent but
53:55nobody wanted to do the right thing
53:57so they kept kicking the can down the
53:58road this is how he ended up
54:01with a special prosecutor named miss
54:04kelly siegler who used to be who has a
54:08show
54:09called cold justice that was my
54:10prosecute and
54:12and according to her
54:16she told me that she came onto this case
54:20to put me back on death row and make
54:22sure that i didn't get off
54:24but when she started investigating the
54:28case
54:31according to miss zigler
54:34she said she went through 25 boxes of
54:36what they call
54:37evidence and that was not one piece of
54:40paper that linked anthony grace to this
54:42case
54:43she said but anthony i want to go
54:45further than that
54:47she said i had five investigators
54:49working this case with me
54:50and i called each one in one by one
54:53i wanted to know how did they feel about
54:55this case
54:57she said anthony every investigator
55:01that came into my office said this man
55:04is innocent
55:06that's when i decided to go to the local
55:10prosecutor who had hired me
55:12to tell him we need to dismiss these
55:14charges because you were innocent
55:17that's how that happened but pamela
55:20kolov
55:22and her amazing writing skills
55:26and amazing investigation skills
55:29detail all the injustice that took place
55:34in my case that a month later they had
55:37to dismiss those charges against me
55:39so that article as you mentioned which
55:40has all the thorough details of your
55:42case and it sounds like you're
55:44totally satisfied with her accounting of
55:46what had happened to you and that
55:48her thoroughness in terms of her
55:50investigation
55:52was that the article that triggered the
55:54special prosecutor who then recommended
55:56that your charges be dismissed
55:58i think so because according to the
56:00special prosecutor she said after she
56:02read that article she was like why
56:04how the hell are they finna kick my ass
56:06in the courtroom
56:07that's what she said she said she read
56:09that all because she knew that they was
56:10going to kick her ass in the courtroom
56:14so she did the right thing after
56:17believing herself that this man is
56:19innocent
56:20she didn't kick the can down the road
56:22like the other nine prosecutor
56:25she actually did the right thing and
56:27when told him this man is innocent
56:29and we have to release him
56:33god was with me the whole way and he
56:35brought the right people along
56:37and i imagine eventually someone comes
56:40to tell you you're getting out of jail
56:42right i mean this information eventually
56:45is conveyed to you
56:46tell me about that story how did what
56:48was that day like who told you
56:50how things were unfolding i just woke i
56:53woke up in that morning it was a
56:55a wednesday and the reason why i know it
56:57was a wednesday because of visitation
56:59day at the jail and my
57:00daughter was coming to see me i had uh
57:04raised this young lady so me and her
57:06mother had been together for so many
57:07years when she was a little girl i
57:09raised as my daughter
57:10so we kept that relationship and so she
57:13was coming
57:14to visit me that wednesday and
57:17at three o'clock
57:21they wrapped up our visit she visited
57:23for 20 minutes
57:25three o'clock they wrapped up our visits
57:26and our she was telling me that she was
57:29gonna come back the next week to see me
57:31and i said all right well baby i'll see
57:33you later
57:34when i got they took me out to put me
57:36back in my cell
57:38and i'm sitting there and i'm writing
57:41i'm
57:41trying to finish this letter that i'm
57:43writing to pamela cola
57:45answering some questions that she was
57:47asking me during our interview process
57:50and the officer came to my window
57:53because because i was in
57:54i was in solitary confinement and i
57:57couldn't see out but they could look in
57:58on me
57:59and he raises up the flap and hits on
58:01the window and i look at him and he
58:03tells me hey put your shirt on come go
58:05with me
58:06and i said where am i going he said just
58:08put your shirt on come go with me
58:10so i put my shirt on and he opened up
58:12the steel
58:13the steel doors i was behind double
58:17steel doors and
58:20told me come on let's go and we started
58:23walking down the hallway
58:24but my mind is that my attorneys must be
58:27here that's the only reason they'll come
58:28get me
58:29but i noticed that we weren't going to
58:31the right where the attorney client
58:33usually had a visit we was going
58:34straight up in the front and so i
58:36started getting paranoid
58:38because i don't have my attorneys with
58:39me i'm with this officer
58:41and i tell him hey man i can't go
58:43nowhere with you without my attorneys
58:45he said just come on walking up to the
58:47front right so we get up to the front
58:49and he opened up this door
58:51and i see my attorneys nicole
58:55and one of my other attorney jimmy
58:56phillips jr
58:58but i could tell nicole was disturbed
59:00she was bothered because i could see she
59:02was batting back tears
59:04but i'm saying man it's just it's just
59:06some more bad news but i don't care
59:08they're gonna kill me or they're gonna
59:09free me that's not gonna be a compromise
59:12i got my shield and my sword they're
59:14gonna kill me
59:15or they're gonna free me that's it and
59:19and as i'm thinking this nicole opens up
59:21her mouth
59:22and say anthony you remember when you
59:25told me that god was good
59:28i said yeah but i'm trying to figure out
59:31why
59:32why is she going with this right but i'm
59:34hungry at the same time and i'm like
59:36so you know where is she going with this
59:39and she says well
59:40i just want you to know
59:44that today the state has dismissed all
59:47the charges against you
59:49ms kelly siegler dismissed the charges
59:53not because witnesses have died not
59:57because they've lost
59:58evidence miss kelly siegel
1:00:01dismissed the charges against you
1:00:03because she believes in your innocence
1:00:05and tomorrow she's holding a press
1:00:07conference to let the whole world know
1:00:09that you're innocent man
1:00:13and i i'm listening but i i'm not comp
1:00:17i'm not processing this this is going
1:00:20over my head
1:00:21because i come in here with my shield
1:00:22and my spoil you're going to kill me or
1:00:24you're going to free me i'm not
1:00:25compromising the truth
1:00:27and when she says that to me
1:00:30i paused what did you just say
1:00:34and she says over you free you can leave
1:00:40and i said
1:00:44what am i gonna do now i never had no i
1:00:47have
1:00:48i don't know my size i don't know what
1:00:50clothes to wear
1:00:51i've been in a jumpsuit for 18 years and
1:00:54now just like that
1:00:56it says over i'm 45 years old
1:01:00this happened to me when i was 26
1:01:03and today i'm 45 and they say it's over
1:01:07and i said well what do i do and she
1:01:10said well
1:01:11how about you put these clothes on that
1:01:13i brought and let's get out of here
1:01:16by this time the officer comes in the
1:01:18room he
1:01:19he knew already he said mr gray you want
1:01:22to go get your property out to sale
1:01:25i said yeah but i didn't want to get no
1:01:27property i was discombobulated
1:01:29i was too afraid to believe this because
1:01:31i had been in jail
1:01:33in prison on death row 6 640 days of my
1:01:36life
1:01:38the last 6 640 days
1:01:41and every day i will wake up in a sale
1:01:44and here it is again
1:01:47i'm having this dream of going home but
1:01:50this time is real
1:01:52are supposed to be but i don't know how
1:01:54to take it because if it's not real then
1:01:56how am i going to bounce back from this
1:01:58one
1:01:59so when he taught start we start walking
1:02:02down the hallway man also
1:02:04it's just dawn on me man it's over
1:02:07it's over and by time we get to the sale
1:02:09he said what do you want
1:02:11i said man just give me my legal work
1:02:12and my pictures i want nothing else i
1:02:14just want to go
1:02:16cause in my mind look let's get out of
1:02:17here before they change their mind
1:02:19you know and uh so just like that man
1:02:2318 and a half years of wrong being
1:02:26wrongfully convicted and
1:02:27sentenced to death october 27 2010
1:02:34i walk out the side of the jail
1:02:38with everything i own in a little box at
1:02:41the age of 45 years old
1:02:44dad just dismissed all charges against
1:02:46me the judge didn't want
1:02:48to let me go because the judge was the
1:02:51daughter of the judge that sentenced me
1:02:52to death
1:02:55she was trying to push for another tribe
1:03:00the prosecutor had to tell the judge
1:03:03if you don't sign this dismissal order
1:03:07we're going to let the media know that
1:03:09you're refusing to let the insurment go
1:03:10home
1:03:13the judge said fine so she went on
1:03:15signing the order
1:03:17they wanted to bring me up to the
1:03:18courthouse and apologize to me in front
1:03:21of my family and the rest of the world
1:03:24the judge said i don't want that hoopla
1:03:25in my court
1:03:27you can let him go now and that's why i
1:03:30was
1:03:31i walked out the courthouse i'm out of
1:03:33jail
1:03:34with everything i owned in a little box
1:03:36because the judge did not want me to
1:03:37have
1:03:39i didn't want them to apologize to me
1:03:43in our courtroom this was the judge
1:03:46who was the daughter of the judge that
1:03:49sentenced me to death
1:03:50who was once a partner in the same law
1:03:53firm
1:03:54with the district attorney
1:03:59that's my story
1:04:04that's it so
1:04:08and because of all that has happened to
1:04:09me i was exonerated in 2010
1:04:13and i've been crisscrossing this globe
1:04:15sharing my story
1:04:16i've developed a big platform
1:04:19around criminal justice reform and now
1:04:22i'm launching a podcast
1:04:24to share these stories with the rest of
1:04:25the world and i'm glad you mentioned
1:04:27that because i want to talk about that
1:04:29i mean you've done a lot in your life in
1:04:31the last 11 years since you've been out
1:04:33but this is
1:04:34seemingly your next big project that
1:04:35you're going to be spending a lot of
1:04:36time doing
1:04:37why are you doing it and what do you
1:04:39envision it will be once it's available
1:04:42yes why am i doing it well
1:04:46our criminal justice system
1:04:50is letting down us as individuals
1:04:54as families as american citizens
1:04:59and we do not have a lot of avenues
1:05:02to talk about how to change this
1:05:04situation
1:05:06so what i've done as a solution
1:05:09is created this media platform to share
1:05:12these stories
1:05:14so that people can understand the
1:05:16urgency
1:05:18to criminal justice reform so that
1:05:21people themselves can hear
1:05:23personal testimonies of people who have
1:05:26been
1:05:26impacted by our criminal system
1:05:32i don't know what this is going to lead
1:05:36to
1:05:37at the end of the day but i do know
1:05:41that we're all connected to personal
1:05:42stories
1:05:44i do know from my own speaking
1:05:47engagements
1:05:49people have responded to these stories
1:05:53in a way that is making change in our
1:05:55criminal justice system
1:05:58i want to amplify that by creating this
1:06:01media platform
1:06:02and getting these stories told not just
1:06:05stories of people who were wrongfully
1:06:06convicted
1:06:07but stories of the lawyers who had to go
1:06:09home and sleep
1:06:10after that person was wrongfully
1:06:13convicted
1:06:14talk about the judges who had to sit up
1:06:16there and be the referee
1:06:18what was his story talk to the law
1:06:20enforcement officer
1:06:22who believed that person was innocent
1:06:24but had to go along with everything
1:06:25because he was a law enforcement officer
1:06:28i know these people
1:06:29and i want their stories added so that
1:06:31you can hear them
1:06:33so that you can understand what is going
1:06:34on in our criminal justice system
1:06:36that our criminal justice system is
1:06:38really the biggest criminal that we have
1:06:41and we need to fix it and this media
1:06:44platform
1:06:44is here to provide those stories to
1:06:47encourage and empower you to
1:06:49fix what is broken in our criminal
1:06:51justice system
1:06:52so that's why i have created this
1:06:54podcast it is called
1:06:56infinite hope after my book and you can
1:06:59get it on patreon.com
1:07:01slash infinitehope127
1:07:04the 127.
1:07:08that was my name for 18 and a half years
1:07:11that's what the state called me
1:07:13999-127
1:07:16i put it on there because every day
1:07:19i want to remember what they did to me
1:07:23every day so that i never forget
1:07:27how powerful these stories are and why
1:07:30they need to be told
1:07:32that's why i'm starting the infinite
1:07:33whole podcast i think by the time
1:07:36this airs it will either be already out
1:07:39or
1:07:39close to it and obviously we will
1:07:42provide information
1:07:43related to that podcast as well
1:07:46uh related to the launch of this
1:07:48specific episode we were talking before
1:07:50we were recording about
1:07:52just some basic theories that we
1:07:55have about how this can happen
1:07:58in quote unquote the land of the free
1:08:01how these things
1:08:02how stories like yours which are
1:08:05happening by the dozens or hundreds or
1:08:07thousands in this country are even
1:08:09possible in a country that so
1:08:11says or states that it values liberty as
1:08:15one
1:08:15one of its highest uh priorities one of
1:08:18its highest
1:08:19values i would love to get your thoughts
1:08:22and i know you will explore this in the
1:08:24podcast i'm sure in detail
1:08:27what it is that you think makes america
1:08:31a place where people like you have had
1:08:34to endure
1:08:35what you have endured right i'm sure you
1:08:37have your ideas about what
1:08:39criminal for for criminal justice reform
1:08:41what
1:08:42could be done or should be done to
1:08:44increase justice there are criminals who
1:08:46do heinous acts so cool there was a
1:08:48criminal who
1:08:49was involved in what you were accused in
1:08:51right so it's a balance between
1:08:54making sure we protect people from
1:08:57criminals while at the same time making
1:08:59sure we're giving the benefit of the
1:09:00doubt to people who are accused
1:09:03i say that just to give you a platform
1:09:04or an opportunity to give some of your
1:09:06at least initial ideas on what you think
1:09:08we could change
1:09:09or should change in the country or the
1:09:11legal system generally
1:09:12the first of all first of all the first
1:09:15thing
1:09:16i think we as the people should change
1:09:19is our mindset about our criminal
1:09:21justice system
1:09:23our criminal justice system is broke
1:09:27point blank simple our criminal justice
1:09:29system
1:09:30is broke if you do not believe me just
1:09:34look at the statistics
1:09:36look at the evidence a hundred and
1:09:39seventy innocent men have walked off a
1:09:41death row in this country
1:09:42that you were once set to kill
1:09:46so our criminal justice system is broken
1:09:49that is the first thing we have to come
1:09:51to grips with
1:09:53what do we do about it number one
1:09:57we start having dialogue
1:10:00we start hearing these stories we stop
1:10:04being so pessimistic about someone's
1:10:08truth and we start engaging
1:10:12in these stories and figuring out how we
1:10:15can
1:10:16we can stop these stories from happening
1:10:19all the time
1:10:21and we have to be honest with the fact
1:10:25that our system is corrupted with racist
1:10:28practices
1:10:31if we can be honest about that i'm not
1:10:33saying being honest make you racist
1:10:37being honest put us in a position to
1:10:39address the
1:10:40issue we have a big race problem in our
1:10:44criminal justice system
1:10:46i watch a racist prosecutor try to
1:10:48murder me
1:10:50and we turn around and gave him
1:10:51prosecutor of the year
1:10:53we got a problem we got a big problem
1:10:57and i would say and i'm gonna say myself
1:11:01included the biggest problem
1:11:04is we the people because we hire these
1:11:07employees
1:11:10to run our companies to make us
1:11:13the best state in our nation
1:11:18and then we just let them tell us what
1:11:20to do we let them tell us how they gonna
1:11:22do things
1:11:24and we just say okay no accountability
1:11:28people our politicians work for us
1:11:32we are the people we are the power
1:11:36we are their bosses and if we don't like
1:11:38what they're doing
1:11:40instead of getting upset and just
1:11:43not participating we go to the voldemort
1:11:47voting polls and we fight the asses
1:11:51and we hire those that have our interest
1:11:54that is on us
1:11:55it's not on them they are who they are
1:11:58it is on us and if we continue
1:12:03to allow them to dictate to their
1:12:06bosses what they're gonna do then we're
1:12:09gonna find ourselves
1:12:11talking about these stories over and
1:12:13over and over and over
1:12:15again so with all that being said
1:12:18what i am telling you is the change lays
1:12:21at your
1:12:22feet and mind so join me
1:12:26and let's make this change together
1:12:28because we deserve it
1:12:30this is our constitution this is our
1:12:34criminal justice system we are the
1:12:36people
1:12:37we are the people wake up
1:12:41wake up and be the bosses that we
1:12:44are supposed to be to these employees
1:12:48because they are ruining our lives
1:12:49because we're not doing our jobs
1:12:51we're not holding them accountable
1:12:54january the 6th was because we did not
1:12:56hold them accountable
1:13:01come on people come on people
1:13:04wake up
1:13:08this was something i think i mentioned
1:13:09to you too that i i talked to mike
1:13:11mike ware who i think i i talked to you
1:13:13offline is the one who pointed me in
1:13:15your direction mike where is the
1:13:16director of the innocence project of
1:13:18texas and
1:13:19you know he's a lawyer and has been a
1:13:20lawyer his entire career
1:13:22and was articulating to me right we we
1:13:26were also
1:13:26i think saying this offline that human
1:13:29beings are storytellers by nature and
1:13:31once people get
1:13:33a story about someone you said this
1:13:35earlier that once you showed up in a
1:13:37courtroom
1:13:38a lot of the jurists who ended up
1:13:40convicting you had already had this
1:13:42narrative in their head that you
1:13:43wouldn't be here if you if you
1:13:45hadn't done anything wrong right yes and
1:13:48a lot of these
1:13:49i think this is in some ways a uniquely
1:13:51american phenomenon where
1:13:54there is a self-righteousness about
1:13:57those who are accused where we get
1:13:59whipped up in a frenzy and believing not
1:14:02that they're innocent until
1:14:03proven guilty but the inverse that
1:14:04they're guilty until proven innocent
1:14:06it's really hard i think just
1:14:08psychologically to
1:14:10change that in a culture but one of the
1:14:12ways i think you potentially fight back
1:14:14in doing that is providing counter
1:14:17examples
1:14:18like yourself and like the people you
1:14:20will feature on your podcast
1:14:22who have fell victim to false
1:14:24accusations
1:14:25that have then resulted in their lives
1:14:29being ruined or close to being killed
1:14:31um that's a counter narrative to the
1:14:34general culture that
1:14:35i i'm i'm unfamiliar with i haven't ever
1:14:38known about
1:14:39a podcast or of some sort of a media
1:14:42platform that is consistently providing
1:14:44that counter story right that when you
1:14:47when you do have that kind of
1:14:49witch-hunt mentality uh when you allow
1:14:53your desire to see people as either good
1:14:55or bad right this is another thing that
1:14:57we were talking about the kind of binary
1:14:59there are good guys and bad guys and not
1:15:01this entire gray area
1:15:03i think you're a lot more likely to fall
1:15:05fall victim for false accusations
1:15:07yes yeah and this um
1:15:11you're absolutely correct man and i have
1:15:14i think the problem that i have
1:15:16with the way we go about our business in
1:15:18the criminal justice system
1:15:19is this yeah people get it wrong
1:15:23and people get it wrong a lot jurors get
1:15:26it wrong
1:15:27and jewels get it wrong a lot but how
1:15:29why
1:15:30how and why well let's let's talk about
1:15:33our media
1:15:34for a minute right because that's where
1:15:36it starts that's that's the domino
1:15:38effect that's where it starts
1:15:40when the media runs that person on tv at
1:15:4210 o'clock
1:15:43in handcuffs saying that he is the
1:15:46alleged vic alleged perpetrator
1:15:50his pat his face is all over the uh
1:15:52media
1:15:54he's the alleged perpetrator now i don't
1:15:57know
1:15:58if everybody know what a ledge means but
1:16:01he's the alleged perpetrator because
1:16:02that
1:16:03protects them from liability okay then
1:16:06they get to sensationalize the story
1:16:08after that
1:16:09after they say that he's an alleged
1:16:12perpetrator
1:16:12then they go into sensationalizing the
1:16:14story with his face
1:16:17by the time he gets to the courthouse
1:16:21everybody that watched the news has seen
1:16:23his face
1:16:25and they equate him to the person that
1:16:26done this crime
1:16:28so this notion of being innocent until
1:16:30proven guilty has gone out the window as
1:16:32soon as they seen him
1:16:33on your 10 o'clock news so the media has
1:16:36a big role to play
1:16:37in rome and why we people are being
1:16:39wrongfully convicted
1:16:41because the media will get out there and
1:16:42run the side of the prosecutor
1:16:44without even talking to the defense
1:16:47they'll run the side of the prosecutor
1:16:49as though this person that allegedly
1:16:52done the crime
1:16:53is guilty so by the time he gets the
1:16:56trial
1:16:57he got to prove that he's innocent
1:16:59because the media along with the
1:17:00district attorney has set it up so that
1:17:02the world knows he's a guilty man now
1:17:05that's a problem yeah the imagery of
1:17:08that imagery is a big problem it doesn't
1:17:10in any way map onto the idea
1:17:12and and that follows in the lapse of
1:17:14media they have a responsibility
1:17:17and they also are letting us down
1:17:19because they're sensationalizing these
1:17:20stories for ratings
1:17:22yeah and innocent people are losing
1:17:24their freedoms and their lives behind
1:17:26them trying to get people trying to get
1:17:29viewership yeah
1:17:31so so it don't just start in the
1:17:33courthouse yeah
1:17:34yeah it's a nice theory innocent until
1:17:36proven guilty but in reality in practice
1:17:39when you frame someone in that way right
1:17:41and any murder story is going to get a
1:17:43lot of media of course
1:17:45i think it's an excellent point you know
1:17:47we have talked about a lot of
1:17:48intense stuff in this conversation and i
1:17:50think for people who
1:17:52are listening to this they would and
1:17:55this is
1:17:55for myself too right like you've
1:17:59to some degree this is obviously going
1:18:00to be a huge part of your life probably
1:18:02for the rest of your life
1:18:03working on these issues but at the age
1:18:06of 45
1:18:07you got your life back
1:18:11what do you do for fun what's your
1:18:13what's your
1:18:14how do you find enjoyment in your life
1:18:17what was
1:18:18what was what's the last 10 years been
1:18:20like for you i mean the truth is right
1:18:22like
1:18:22you're a jolly guy i can tell just by
1:18:25hanging out with you you're a funny guy
1:18:27and it's amazing to me that you've been
1:18:28able to to maintain such a
1:18:31high spiritedness given what you've gone
1:18:33through tell us what the last 10 years
1:18:35have been like
1:18:36well the last 10 years i have been
1:18:38really out here advocating
1:18:41for criminal justice reform yeah and why
1:18:44you see
1:18:45this jolly look on my face is because i
1:18:48enjoy what i do
1:18:49this is not a job for me i'm very
1:18:51passionate
1:18:52about helping people who have been
1:18:55messed over by our criminal system
1:18:57i've spent the last 10 years
1:18:59crisscrossing this country and abroad
1:19:01sharing my story in law firms
1:19:05all different organizations churches and
1:19:07different institutions you name it
1:19:09anybody that wants anthony grades to
1:19:11come and share his story that's where
1:19:12i've been
1:19:13right ask for fun wow
1:19:16uh well i got married
1:19:19right
1:19:22[Laughter]
1:19:31you know this this
1:19:34story that happened in my life just put
1:19:37me on a whole nother path
1:19:40uh i really don't know what fun is
1:19:44because every day i'm trying to help
1:19:45somebody because every day i get letters
1:19:47if you look right behind you those are
1:19:49letters in that little box you know what
1:19:51those are letters from
1:19:52people in prison telling me that they're
1:19:53innocent they want me to help them
1:19:56right that's what i get every day so
1:19:59having fun maybe if i watch a sports
1:20:02game
1:20:03cause i'm a big cowboys fan i'm a big
1:20:06astro fan
1:20:07i'm a big rockets fan so maybe watching
1:20:10that i get i get a little
1:20:11enjoyment but after that gang go off i'm
1:20:14back to trying to help somebody yeah
1:20:16and maybe that's a good distinction
1:20:17between fun and meaning
1:20:19right i bet you get a lot of meaning
1:20:20even though it's probably extremely
1:20:22difficult and hard work to do this
1:20:24all the time that it matters to you
1:20:25clearly yes it definitely matters you
1:20:27know
1:20:28i uh when i was exonerated they
1:20:31compensated me
1:20:32right they compensated me and uh
1:20:35apologized to me and i at that moment i
1:20:38had a chance to just
1:20:39go off with my life buy me a little
1:20:42house
1:20:42live on the beach and sip drinks through
1:20:46a straw
1:20:48but after going through what i went
1:20:50through for 18 and a half years i just
1:20:52could not see myself walking away from
1:20:54this
1:20:54there had to be a reason why i had to go
1:20:57through this
1:20:58and i needed to figure that out so that
1:21:00i could understand my life
1:21:03because other than that i want to
1:21:04understand my life and if i can't
1:21:05understand my life and make some sense
1:21:07of this
1:21:08it's going to have a big impact on me
1:21:11in a negative way so i need to figure
1:21:14this thing out
1:21:16and so as i been speaking
1:21:19and helping other people it just came
1:21:22natural to me that
1:21:24this is just what i'm going to do
1:21:27i mean when i told you earlier that i
1:21:28discovered at an early age i had
1:21:30leadership abilities
1:21:32this is just what i was born to do and
1:21:34in order for me to do it i had to go
1:21:36through what i went through
1:21:37so that's why in hindsight i have no
1:21:40regrets for what i went through i have
1:21:42no hate in my heart
1:21:43because i get out and share this story
1:21:45and i change lives
1:21:48i am the richest man in the world
1:21:49because of that
1:21:51and i don't have a pen in the bank
1:21:54because true riches
1:21:56is impacting the lives of other people
1:21:58in a positive way
1:22:00and watching them take off yeah i see it
1:22:03all the time man and so
1:22:05that's fun for me yeah you know
1:22:08yeah that's that's that's why as we
1:22:11begin to wind down the conversation i
1:22:12want to talk to you
1:22:13about how people who listen to this can
1:22:16help
1:22:16right you've been involved in this work
1:22:18for now almost 10 years or maybe maybe
1:22:20maybe 10 years for an average citizen
1:22:24who sympathizes with your story who
1:22:26wants to get involved who wants to try
1:22:28to help to reform things
1:22:32what do you say to them how can people
1:22:34normal people right who
1:22:36who just have love in their heart for
1:22:38people like you
1:22:39what can they do what would you
1:22:40recommend that people
1:22:43how how should they act what should they
1:22:46get involved with to try to help in an
1:22:48impactful way in your in your judgment
1:22:49oh you know that question has been posed
1:22:51to me so many times
1:22:53and i have gone around and around trying
1:22:55to think how can i get people
1:22:57involved that want to get involved
1:22:59there's so many different things that
1:23:00you can do in this arena
1:23:02how can i get in get them involved and
1:23:04make them very effective
1:23:06and i came to the conclusion that the
1:23:07best way to get involved
1:23:09is to put this podcast donate to this
1:23:11podcast
1:23:12and allow me to use the the funds that
1:23:15we raise
1:23:16to help other people it be structured
1:23:19i have the resources to make it happen i
1:23:22just need to fund it
1:23:23and i will say if you really want to get
1:23:25involved you really want to help if you
1:23:27don't stop this type of injustice
1:23:29support this podcast because that's why
1:23:31i created it
1:23:33to bring these stories to the table to
1:23:35ask you to help support this podcast
1:23:38so i can do the great work that i've
1:23:39been doing which is helping people
1:23:41who are innocent that's how you can help
1:23:46i just want to say uh before we cut this
1:23:49off this has been a huge honor for me to
1:23:51meet you
1:23:51and and to have this conversation and
1:23:54even though you have been up to this for
1:23:5610 years i really
1:23:57think that this is just the beginning
1:24:00for you
1:24:00and i think the podcast platform is
1:24:02going to be
1:24:04probably the most impactful thing you
1:24:06may ever do related to this
1:24:08um and
1:24:12i think i speak for a lot of people who
1:24:14are listening to this
1:24:15just in um
1:24:18knowing that you have a lot of people on
1:24:20your side
1:24:21who um i think are similar into you
1:24:25in your goals and what you're trying to
1:24:27accomplish with your life and with your
1:24:29talents so
1:24:33thank you for doing this thank you for
1:24:34sharing your story and
1:24:36uh i wish you all the best with
1:24:39everything you do related to this
1:24:41it's amazing to me what you just said
1:24:43that you have no regrets because you are
1:24:45where you are now
1:24:47right and that you hopefully will
1:24:49continue to be a tool for change and
1:24:50betterment of our society for
1:24:53years and years to come so um thanks for
1:24:56doing this man it was really great to
1:24:58to meet you and um i hope we stay in
1:24:59touch over the years
1:25:01yeah likewise i feel like i met a friend
1:25:03today you know
1:25:05thanks man thanks for uh you know
1:25:07allowing me to share my story on your
1:25:09podcast
1:25:10and allow me to promote my podcast it's
1:25:13my pleasure
1:25:14thank you buddy

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