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Episode 039: Monstrous Moms and Dastardly Dads: John List — Transcript

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0:00this podcast details true crime cases it
0:03contains adult themes and may contain
0:05descriptions of violence it is not
0:07intended for children listener
0:09discretion is advised
0:12thank you for joining me for today's
0:14episode of once upon a crime we're in
0:17the series monstrous moms and
0:19desperately dads or I discuss cases the
0:21parents who went bad the word filicide
0:24shouldn't even exist it means killing
0:26ones own son or daughter
0:28we even have examples of filicide in
0:31children's stories our fairy tales Snow
0:33White and Hansel and Gretel are both
0:36tales of children who are cast out on
0:37their own to perish the villain of the
0:39story is often a woman an evil
0:42stepmother for witch but less popular in
0:44fiction is a male who commits filicide
0:47but unfortunately there are enough of
0:49these villains in her life in this
0:52series I will share two cases of women
0:54and two cases of men who committed
0:56heinous crimes against their own
0:57offspring this is chapter 2 John lists
1:01[Music]
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2:29supporting the show December 7th
2:331971 officers in Westfield New Jersey
2:36received a call about an intrusion at a
2:39home located at 431 hillside avenue the
2:43address belonged to an estate named
2:44Brees Knoll that sat on an acre of land
2:47the lawn rolling gently up to the front
2:49door from hillside Avenue it had
2:52originally been a grand Victorian
2:53structure built in 1895 but now looked a
2:57bit shabby with peeling paint on the
2:59shutters and overgrown brush leading up
3:01to the house still it was impressive
3:04with its nineteen rooms which included
3:06two living rooms five bedrooms a kitchen
3:08with a butler's pantry a billiard room a
3:11third floor apartment complete with a
3:13kitchen and a 30-foot long Ballroom it
3:17had oak floors throughout ten fireplaces
3:19some made of marble with hand-carved
3:22teak Mantle's one could see how majestic
3:24it might have looked in its heyday this
3:27wasn't the first call the police had
3:28received to check out the residence for
3:30several weeks concerned neighbors and
3:32friends of the family had called to have
3:34welfare checks made on the family who
3:35lived there initially neighbors heard
3:38that John and Helen list and their three
3:40children had all left town in early
3:41November to attend a sick relative they
3:44were to be gone in under
3:46Herman amount of time but after several
3:48weeks with no word from anyone in the
3:50family some began to grow concerned the
3:53school attendance officer noting that
3:55the list children didn't often miss
3:56school felt concerned enough to take a
3:58drive out to the property no one
4:01answered the door and she didn't see
4:02anything out of the ordinary a teacher
4:05called the lists pastor knowing that
4:07they were faithful attendance of the
4:08Lutheran Church and that John list and
4:10his children were active in the parish
4:12the pastor Eugene ray Winkle reported
4:16that he'd received a letter from mr.
4:17list stating that the family would be
4:19away for a time and he wouldn't be able
4:21to teach his Sunday School class list
4:23was a responsible man and a faithful
4:25Church girl or the pastor reported he
4:28didn't think there was anything to be
4:29alarmed about and told the teacher so
4:31but the lists oldest daughter Patricia
4:34was popular at school and active in a
4:36theater group her drama teacher at
4:39illion oh and her cast mates felt that
4:41something had to be wrong
4:42Pat wouldn't be gone so long and with no
4:45word she was extremely committed to a
4:47theater group and had an important
4:49position in their newest production a
4:51streetcar named desire
4:52she was the understudy for the actress
4:55playing Blanche DuBois the main
4:56character but opening night had come and
4:59gone and no word from Pat or anyone else
5:02than her family
5:03the neighbors also began to ask
5:05questions when they noticed one-by-one
5:07lights that had been illuminated inside
5:09the home since early November began to
5:12burn out
5:12they also wondered about Alma list
5:14John's 84 year old mother Alma lived
5:17with her son and his family occupying
5:19the third-floor apartment
5:21perhaps the list had gone out of town it
5:24was said that Helens mother was the sick
5:25relative but maybe almost stayed behind
5:28if so was she now ill or worse neighbors
5:33asked police to do a welfare check but
5:35when they'd arrived they simply rang the
5:37doorbell and then walked around the
5:39outside of the house when no one
5:40answered they saw nothing amiss the
5:43house seemed to be locked up tight and
5:45left
5:46finally the drama teacher at ileana and
5:48his assistant Barbara Sheridan decided
5:51to try and get inside the house to have
5:53a look around on Tuesday night December
5:567th they drove up to Brees null Ilyana
5:59admits that he
6:00and want to go inside he was afraid he'd
6:02be charged with breaking and entering
6:04but he didn't know what else to do so
6:07when they arrived he made as much noise
6:09as possible hoping the neighbors would
6:11get suspicious and call police
6:12he parked the car in front of the house
6:15slamming the door as he exited in a loud
6:18staged voice he called out well I'm
6:20going to go up and take a look his plan
6:23worked
6:23a suspicious neighbor heard the
6:25commotion and alerted her husband while
6:28he walked over to check things out she
6:30called the Westfield Police within
6:33minutes a patrol car came barreling up
6:34the driveway
6:35officers Charles Haller and George Ellis
6:38Nick confronted the pair they explained
6:40their concern to the officers who then
6:42began to walk around the perimeter of
6:44the house officers Ellis Nick only saw
6:47one thing out of place the basement
6:49window in the back of the house was ajar
6:50they decided to go in perhaps the family
6:54was out of town as had been reported but
6:56someone could have broken in through the
6:58basement window to burglarize it they
7:00slid open a window into the dining room
7:02and noticed a musty decay like smell
7:04they saw an aquarium where several fish
7:07had died and thought that was where the
7:09offensive odor was coming from as they
7:12walked from room to room in the large
7:13house music was playing loudly
7:15throughout there was a stereo somewhere
7:17tuned to a classical music station there
7:20were several speakers wired throughout
7:22the first floor and the sound of the
7:24somber music made their flashlights or
7:26of the seemingly empty home feel that
7:28much more eerie there was a large hall
7:30in the center of the house with two
7:32staircases flanking it on either side as
7:34they made their way across the hall to
7:37the left side of the house they saw an
7:39arched doorway with a heavy dark curtain
7:41drawn over it they peered in and the
7:44musty smell grew stronger it was the
7:47Grand Ballroom and it seemed to be
7:49almost empty of furniture as had many of
7:51the houses large rooms the ballroom was
7:54completely dark they trained their
7:56flashlights around the cavernous room
7:57and a swath of light landed on a figure
8:00lying on the floor the body was
8:02partially covered but officer Haller
8:04could see an arm he ran over to grab it
8:07as an automatic reflex as he did so he
8:10felt it stiff and cold just then someone
8:13snapped on the lights the officers would
8:16never forget the sight before them three
8:22bodies lay side-by-side vertically on
8:25the floor of the ballroom they were
8:26laying on blood-soaked sleeping bags a
8:29fourth body lay horizontally at the head
8:31of the other three bodies it was also on
8:34a sleeping bag their heads were covered
8:36with towels or blankets when the towels
8:39were removed they could see that all of
8:41the bodies were badly decomposed the
8:44neighborhood gone to the home to
8:45investigate was William Connick and he
8:48happened to be a specialist in internal
8:50medicine he could tell that the bodies
8:52had been there for some time he was able
8:54to identify them as Helen list age 45
8:58patricia list age 16 john frederick list
9:02age 15 and frederick list age 13
9:06officer haulers first question to
9:08himself was was this a mass murder or a
9:10mass suicide the Police Chief James
9:15Moran arrived in the civilians at the
9:17scene were questioned about the homes
9:18residence missing from the bodies in the
9:21ballroom was the patriarch John list and
9:24his elderly mother Alma Eadie
9:27Ilyana told them that elle m'a lived
9:28upstairs with guns drawn the officers
9:31worked their way upstairs they checked
9:34all the rooms on the second floor but
9:36they were empty before arriving at the
9:38third floor which served as almost
9:39quarters and officer to let out a
9:42startled cry as he literally stumbled on
9:44the old woman's body as he rounded a
9:46hallway she was lying on the hallway
9:48floor on top of a plastic floor runner
9:51her body was grossly swollen and badly
9:53decomposed as well downstairs the police
9:57chief was investigating each room he
10:00found an office and on the desk was
10:02taped a note that read to the finder one
10:05please contact the proper authorities -
10:08the key to this desk is in an envelope
10:10addressed to myself three the keys to
10:13the files are in the desk next to the
10:15desk was a file cabinet there were two
10:18notes taped to this cabinet on one
10:20drawer the note taped to it read guns
10:22and ammo on the drawer above it the note
10:25read to pastor ray Winkle
10:27Burton goldstein and administrators the
10:31officers who had searched the rest of
10:32the house now arrived to find chief
10:34moran reading the notes they told him
10:37they had found Alma list but there was
10:39no sign of John list senior the note
10:41writer instructed the finder to wait for
10:43a special delivery letter to obtain the
10:45desk key Moran was not willing to wait
10:48he told an officer to retrieve a crowbar
10:50and they pried open the locked cabinet
10:53he found two guns in a large manila
10:55envelope addressed to pastor ray Winkle
10:57every Deemer Lutheran Church it was a
11:00long letter that was signed by John list
11:03it began dear pastor ray Winkle I'm very
11:06sorry to add this additional burden to
11:08your work I know that what I have done
11:10is wrong from all that I have been
11:11taught and that any reasons that I may
11:14give will not make it right but then
11:17John list went on to give the reasons
11:19for killing his family each reason
11:21blames someone or something else beside
11:23himself
11:24the first reason he listed was I wasn't
11:26earning anywhere near enough to support
11:28us he then explained that he couldn't
11:30have filed bankruptcy or gone on welfare
11:32because the environment his family would
11:34have to live in if he did so was more
11:36than he thought they could bear he also
11:39stated Pat's interest in acting as a
11:41factor I was fearful as to what this
11:44might do to her continuing to be a
11:45Christian he wrote he also blamed his
11:48wife Helen for having fallen away from
11:50the church he believed that would cause
11:52the children harm and might result in
11:55them losing their faith as well so
11:57that's the sum of it he concluded at
11:59least I'm certain that they have all
12:01gone to heaven now if things had gone on
12:03who knows if that would be the case
12:06he then finally mentions his mother of
12:08course mother got involved because doing
12:11what I did to my family would have been
12:13a tremendous shock to her at this age
12:15therefore knowing that she is also a
12:18Christian I felt it best that she be
12:20relieved of the troubles of this world
12:21that would have hit her he then spelled
12:24out details for the family's funeral
12:26arrangements and notes that in the
12:28envelope there are additional letters
12:30for his mother's sister his wife's
12:32mother and his wife's sister finally he
12:35blames God in part for his deed I leave
12:38myself in the hands of God's justice and
12:40mercy
12:41apparently he saw fit not to answer my
12:44prayers he wrote he then signs off pious
12:48mother is in the hallway in the Attic
12:50third floor she was too heavy to move
12:52John now the police knew who the
12:56murderer was
12:57mr. John Emma list but where was he the
13:00letters had been dated November 9th
13:02it was now December 7th almost a month
13:06after murdering his family he could be
13:08anywhere in the world
13:12[Music]
13:15John Emel list was born in Bay City
13:18Michigan in 1925 - John Frederick and
13:21Alma Marie list
13:23John's father was 64 when he was born 26
13:27years older than his wife they had been
13:29married only one year when their son was
13:31born
13:32John Frederick's first wife had died of
13:34cancer and his oldest son William George
13:37was the same age as his new stepmother
13:40john frederick met Alma when she'd been
13:42hired as a live-in nurse to care for his
13:44ailing wife john frederick was a stern
13:47and deeply religious man from german
13:49american stock he liked his family
13:52before him belonged to the most
13:53conservative branch of the Lutheran
13:55Church the Missouri Synod branch he
13:58taught his sons to Center their lives on
14:00God and the values of family hard work
14:03obedience and thrift he showed no
14:05affection to his son not even addressing
14:07him directly or by name but always
14:10referred to him as the boy and
14:12communicated with him through Alma John
14:15was expected to excel in school and
14:17dedicate himself to church and behaved
14:19with honor and dignity as a reflection
14:21of his family's values while he rarely
14:24interacted with his father beyond church
14:26attendance his mother doted on her
14:28youngest boy he spent most of his time
14:31helping her and every night they would
14:33read the Bible together almost friends
14:36and neighbors remember her watching over
14:37John like a hawk always concerned for
14:40his cleanliness and his health she was
14:42afraid of her boy being exposed to dirt
14:44or germs of any kind he always seemed to
14:47be bundled up in layers of warm clothing
14:49even in mild weather
14:51he was often alone his mother didn't
14:53approve of most of the neighborhood
14:55children and wouldn't allow John to play
14:57with them her overprotectiveness even
14:59continued into his teen years for his
15:02part John stayed obedient to both his
15:04mother and father and never complained
15:05he seemed to enjoy being with his mother
15:08she was a loving if Stern sounding
15:10mother she had a thick German accent
15:13that sometimes sounded more intimidating
15:15than she realized his high school peers
15:18those who remember John list at all
15:20recall him as a tall very well dressed
15:22bookworm he was deeply religious they'd
15:25later say and was always well dressed in
15:27starched shirts and slacks he never
15:30participated in group activities outside
15:32of church he graduated high school in
15:351943 and immediately joined the service
15:37John was extremely patriotic and was
15:40eager to do his part for the war effort
15:42but he spent his first year not overseas
15:45but in an army camp in Louisiana he did
15:48well in the platoon ever an obedient
15:50rule follower but didn't like what he
15:52considered to be crude behavior and
15:54language of the other enlistees he was
15:57called a prude and a Priss by his fellow
15:59soldiers and didn't fit in in August of
16:021994 the base captain informed him that
16:05his father who'd been seriously ill for
16:07some time had died he was given
16:10emergency leave to attend the funeral
16:12family and friends of the lists noticed
16:15that John showed no emotion up to or
16:17during the funeral he shed not one tear
16:20the death of his father didn't seem to
16:22affect him emotionally at all
16:24they found it odd in February 1945 John
16:28list was finally shipped overseas to
16:30Europe
16:31the final assaults of the war were
16:33taking place in Germany on April 11th
16:361945 his infantry patrol was captured by
16:39German troops who threatened to shoot
16:41them as prisoners of war but hours later
16:44realizing that the war was all but lost
16:46the German troops instead gave
16:48themselves up to the American soldiers
16:51lists entire army division was awarded
16:53the Bronze Star even though they had not
16:56been in a real battle lists would always
16:58be proud of this honor the Japanese
17:01surrendered soon after and lists spent
17:03several more months doing busy work like
17:06digging drainage ditches in the
17:07Philippines while waiting for the
17:09armie to discharge millions of troops
17:11and ship them back home finally in April
17:14of 1946 he returned home to his mother
17:18the war had given list a new interest in
17:21firearms and he brought one home as a
17:22souvenir
17:23an antique Austrian stayer pistol that
17:26he'd purchased in 1944 and used to
17:29qualify for an army sharpshooters badge
17:31list entered college on the GI Bill he
17:34with the approval of his mother decided
17:36to study accounting at the University of
17:38Michigan at Ann Arbor he was still not
17:41very social and again his college peers
17:43would not remember him very distinctly
17:45later on he would remember them it seems
17:48while on the run decades later he would
17:51assume the name of one of his college
17:53classmates Robert Clark Clark would not
17:55even recall meeting list Alma would make
17:59the three-hour bus trip once a month to
18:01visit her son at college for the weekend
18:03she would stay at a nearby rooming house
18:05and list and his mother would spend the
18:07weekend together
18:08dining in restaurants and attending
18:10church in June of 1950 Liszt graduated
18:14with the bachelor's degree in business
18:15administration
18:16he took an accelerated masters program
18:19in business where he could earn credits
18:21for his army experience he graduated
18:23with his MBA the following September he
18:27was hired at the prestigious accounting
18:29firm Ernst and Ernst as a junior auditor
18:31in its Detroit office making $56 a week
18:35a respectable sum in 1950 he quickly
18:38qualified as a certified public
18:40accountant but in November he found
18:43himself in uniform once again having
18:46received a leave from his company to
18:48join the efforts after the start of the
18:49Korean War he was now a commissioned
18:52officer and didn't see any action in
18:54Korea but was shipped off to work in an
18:56office at an army base in Virginia he
18:59had plenty of time to pursue his
19:00interest in war history and visited
19:02several Civil War battlefields around
19:04the Richmond Virginia area he began to
19:07attend singles outings sponsored by the
19:08Lutheran Church he went on one of these
19:11outings to a bowling alley with two
19:13other junior officers in October of 1951
19:16there he met a woman named Helen Taylor
19:19Helen had only attended that night at
19:21the urging of her sister jeans
19:23firt gene was married and was trying to
19:25get her sister out for an evening of fun
19:27Helens husband Marvin Taylor had been
19:30killed in Korea six months earlier
19:32Helen was widowed at the age of 26 and
19:35had a nine-year-old daughter
19:36Brenda not long after they met list
19:40called Helen for a date helen had left
19:43high school at the age of 16 to marry
19:45Marvin Taylor she now felt lost and
19:47alone as a widowed mother and welcomed
19:50lists attention she was anxious to find
19:53a new husband he looked good in his
19:55uniform and he had a good job
19:56Helen enjoyed the finer things in life
19:59and John was willing to shower her with
20:01gifts Helens sister Jean saw red flags
20:04she knew that Helen could be excessive
20:07in her spending something her husband
20:08Marvin had had a firm control over but
20:11list seemed to indulge her in her
20:13spendthrift ways John for his part was
20:16thrilled to be dating such a beautiful
20:18woman he wasn't concerned about her
20:20already having a child or that she been
20:22previously married but he was a little
20:25afraid of what his mother would think he
20:27doubted she would approve and he had yet
20:29to tell her about his girlfriend Helen
20:32realized that John was waffling a bit
20:33when it came to his mother they had
20:36already begun sleeping together and she
20:38told him that she thought she was
20:39pregnant that sealed it for list he
20:42believed he was in love with Helen and
20:44he was also raised to do the honorable
20:46thing they married on December 1st 1951
20:49eight months after Helens husband had
20:52been killed in Korea and less than two
20:54months since they first met they left
20:57her daughter Brenda with Helen's mother
20:58and traveled to Bay City so Alma could
21:01meet her new daughter-in-law Alma was
21:03polite but afterwards told her friends
21:05that she was devastated at John's choice
21:07of a bride previously married and with a
21:10child to boot soon after the wedding
21:13Helen told John that she had been wrong
21:15she was not pregnant after all John
21:18didn't seem upset at all by the news he
21:20loved Helen and was proud that she was
21:22his wife later however John list would
21:25write in his prison biography that he
21:27felt angry and betrayed at Helens
21:29initial deception no one else remembers
21:32this being the case at the time
21:35John was transferred to an army
21:36accounting station in San Francisco
21:38where he would help process hundreds of
21:40thousands of returning troops back to
21:42civilian life after the war they would
21:44only be there for a short time so they
21:47left Brenda with Helen's mother list
21:49however decided at the last minute to
21:51invite his mother alone he said she
21:53might never have another chance to see
21:55California Helen didn't object out loud
21:58but she didn't feel accepted by her
22:00mother-in-law and wasn't thrilled with
22:01the idea in April lists army service was
22:05complete and he and Helen and Brenda
22:07headed back to Detroit where he resumed
22:10his position at Ernst and Ernst
22:12they found a small house to rent their
22:15first few years of their marriage went
22:16well and they were even happier when
22:18their first child
22:19Patricia Marie was born in January of
22:221955 she was a beautiful baby and
22:25good-natured Elma even warmed towards
22:27her daughter-in-law after the birth of
22:29her first grandchild
22:31Patricia stepsister Brenda now thirteen
22:33was thrilled with her baby sister
22:36John had become a good stepfather to
22:38Brenda often taking her to outings at
22:40the zoo or ice fishing he now immersed
22:43himself in becoming a good father to his
22:45newborn reading child-rearing books like
22:48the popular dr. Spock baby and childcare
22:50manual when Patricia was a year old
22:53Liss was being courted by a new firm the
22:55Sutherland paper company that produced
22:58paper packaging for the growing industry
22:59of convenience items he joined the
23:02company as an accountant with a salary
23:04of 7,200 dollars per year the family
23:07moved to Kalamazoo Michigan for list new
23:09job Helen became pregnant again soon
23:12after the move John Frederick named
23:14after lists father was born on October
23:1721st 1956 list as always joined the
23:21town's Lutheran Church and attended with
23:23his family every Sunday he was elected
23:26as treasurer of the parish a position he
23:28was particularly proud of
23:29Helen was proud as well but she wasn't
23:32the avid churchgoer that her husband was
23:34more often she would beg off attending
23:37to stay home and sleep in or make
23:39breakfast while list took the children
23:40on his own he didn't fight with Helen
23:43about it but he felt abandoned and
23:45didn't understand it he continued to
23:47shower her with gifts as she won
23:49but it seemed her disrespect for him
23:51grew anyway she began to drink more and
23:54when she'd had a few she'd call him a
23:56goody two-shoes and seemed to resent him
23:59Helen became pregnant again but this
24:02time spent most of her pregnancy sick in
24:03bed Frederic Michael was born on August
24:0626 1958 Helen became depressed after the
24:10birth of her fourth child whether this
24:12was due to postpartum depression the
24:15fact that she had a colicky infant and
24:16two whiny toddlers as well as the
24:19sixteen-year-old daughter who was
24:20threatened to run away is unclear she
24:23began to drink more heavily she was also
24:26prescribed tranquilizers that she would
24:28mix with the alcohol she was unable to
24:30function due to the combination and list
24:33was tasked with taking care of the
24:34children when his wife couldn't get out
24:36of bed John and Helen put a down payment
24:39on a house in 1959 however they're
24:42spending hatton allowed for them to save
24:44up for this expense John's father had
24:47owned a general store in Michigan Elma
24:49now sold the property estimated to be
24:51worth about $20,000 John and Helen
24:54received one third of the profit from
24:56the sale more than enough to put down on
24:58their new house Helen continued to spend
25:02over their means
25:03neighbors also begin to talk about the
25:05family baby Freddie had a very expensive
25:07playpen from the look of it but it was
25:10often placed in the front yard of the
25:11house and the toddler would be left
25:13outside unattended for hours John seemed
25:16to be the classic henpecked husband
25:18according to friends and neighbors in
25:19Kalamazoo he would receive phone
25:22messages at work from Helen that his
25:24co-workers would relate to him your wife
25:26called to say your son messed his pants
25:28a typical one read if you want them
25:31changed come home and do it John would
25:34be mortified that his co-workers saw the
25:35level of disrespect he received from his
25:37wife but often he would give in and
25:40return home the Sutherland company
25:42prided itself on being family-oriented
25:44and didn't mind John taking an hour here
25:47or there to see the family matters
25:50co-workers said that Helen often called
25:52to complain about problems at home she
25:54didn't seem to be able to handle the
25:56kids on her own
25:57a co-worker remembers John who ever
25:59never seemed to complain
26:02Helen would even call the church after
26:03John left to attend service and insist
26:06he returned home to change a diaper
26:08women at the church felt sorry for John
26:10and even tried to help they paid a call
26:13to Helen to see how they could assist
26:14her but she sent them away she didn't
26:17want them interfering in her family's
26:19business Helen often compared John with
26:21her dead husband Marvin the war hero she
26:24told him he wasn't half the man Marvin
26:25had been he'd been a real war hero she'd
26:28say Brenda heard these tirades of her
26:31mother's firsthand mom was really
26:33boozing it up then Brenda reported later
26:35she was also on heavy doses of
26:37medication Brenda had a falling out with
26:40her mother
26:40due to her drinking and spending Brenda
26:43had been awarded survivors benefits as a
26:45result of her father being killed in
26:46action she'd argued with her mother who
26:49she felt was spending the money on
26:50herself she'd been threatening to run
26:52away from home for some time when she
26:54turned 18 she married her boyfriend and
26:57left to try and appease his wife John
26:59continued to spend lavishly they were
27:02starting to get in over their heads in
27:03debt in 1959 he was promoted to a
27:06Supervisor position and his salary
27:08increased to 93 hundred dollars per year
27:10but later that year Sutherland was
27:13acquired by another company
27:14the new owners didn't see lists as
27:16management material
27:18they informed him saying that they
27:20thought it best he began exploring other
27:21options it was a polite way of saying
27:24you're fired
27:25luckily list was recruited for an even
27:28better position Xerox had just launched
27:30its hottest product a compact office
27:33photocopier they were expanding rapidly
27:35and seeking out talent list was offered
27:38a position in Rochester New York
27:39starting at the then astronomical sum of
27:42$12,000 per year to start in the new
27:46position list had longer hours and would
27:48not be able to come and go as he had
27:50before the move to Rochester had agreed
27:52with Helen and she was also happy about
27:54the increase in the salary she began to
27:57take a more active role in the family
27:58and even attended church sometimes John
28:01and Helen even went on their first real
28:03vacation together they left the children
28:06in Rochester with Helens mother and made
28:08the grand tour of Europe visiting
28:10Ireland England and Germany Helen and
28:13John were happier than they'd been in a
28:15long
28:15time she got to spend more time with her
28:18sister Jean as well the two families
28:20would vacation together in the summers
28:22Jean liked seeing her sister happy but
28:25still thought Helen went overboard
28:26buying expensive clothes jewelry and
28:29shoes she wanted the best of everything
28:31Jean recalled she also remembers John
28:34being odd however he seemed so stiff and
28:37formal all the time his clothes were
28:40meticulous and everything had to be just
28:41so in his surroundings even the
28:44newspapers he read every day were folded
28:47so crisply and stacked so neatly it was
28:49like they'd never been read even though
28:52John was earning a very good living he'd
28:54made twenty five thousand dollars in
28:551964 after receiving a bonus of almost
28:59$8,000 over his regular salary he often
29:02seemed to be broke he'd even borrow
29:04small sums from Jean and her husband
29:06during their vacations at work John
29:09continued to seek advancements in
29:10position but the executives felt he'd
29:13reached the highest level they could
29:14offer him he didn't have the management
29:16skills necessary for an executive
29:18position he would become flustered
29:20almost apoplectic when he was required
29:22to speak in front of a group this would
29:25not do for a vice president of the
29:26accounting department the position he
29:28was pushing for what he wanted was a big
29:31title his boss said and when he kept
29:34asking for advancement we had to tell
29:36him to look for another job
29:38[Music]
29:40it was 1965 and John list was 40 years
29:44old his wife's health had deteriorated
29:46again she was bedridden most of the time
29:49what wouldn't be reported until much
29:52much later was that Helen had contracted
29:54syphilis from Marvin her war hero
29:56husband he had been infected after
29:59frequenting Korean brothels when he'd
30:01been transferred to Korea in 1947
30:03peacetime conditions allowed him to
30:05bring his wife and daughter along while
30:08Helen was home with the baby Marvin
30:10would visit Korea's bar girls he then
30:12brought the disease home to his wife now
30:14Helen was suffering from the results of
30:16years of having the undiagnosed illness
30:18she was experiencing the early stages of
30:20cerebral atrophy a degenerative
30:23shrinkage of the brain tissues alcohol
30:26and depressants like the tranquilizers
30:27she was prescribed
30:29evaded her symptoms John as he always
30:32had aggressively and methodically
30:34searched for a new position he sent
30:36resumes across the country
30:38Xerox gave him a glowing endorsement as
30:40head settlin before them he hit pay dirt
30:43everything he ever wanted a great salary
30:47$25,000 a year comparable to a salary at
30:50Xerox but this time he also had a title
30:53vice president and comptroller of the
30:55First National Bank of Jersey City New
30:57Jersey confident now that all of his
31:00dreams and goals were coming to fruition
31:02lists decided he would find and purchase
31:05their dream home he found it in
31:07Westfield New Jersey 25 miles southwest
31:09of Manhattan he and Helen were impressed
31:12by the grand entrance with the sweeping
31:14staircase and the enormous ballroom
31:16topped by a stained-glass skylight the
31:19house had been on the market for some
31:20time as it was in need of repair and a
31:23house of that size would be costly to
31:25maintain the assessed value of the house
31:27was $100,000 but was listed at only 57
31:31thousand dollars they made a lowball
31:34offer of 50,000 and it was quickly
31:36accepted even so they didn't have the
31:38$10,000 down payment required John knew
31:42only one person he could ask for the
31:43cash
31:44his mother Alma she agreed to give him
31:47the money on one condition
31:48she would come to live with them Helen
31:51was not thrilled to have her
31:52mother-in-law living with them full-time
31:54however her desire to own breezin all
31:57the name the mansion had been given by
31:59its original builder and the fact that
32:01the home had a private apartment on the
32:03third floor where the old lady could
32:05live sold her on the idea they moved to
32:08Westfield New Jersey and into the
32:10mansion on hillside Avenue in 1965
32:12neighbors were happy to have the family
32:14move into the long vacant home and
32:16waited anxiously for them to paint the
32:18house it was badly in need and becoming
32:21an eyesore the lists were anxious to
32:23begin the remodeling projects as well
32:25but their priorities were somewhat
32:27different the first thing they did was
32:29purchase an enormous and very expensive
32:31chandelier to grace the center hall at
32:34the top of the stairway the new paint
32:36job never happened
32:38neighbors also began to find the couple
32:41odd
32:42Helen was hardly ever seen outside of
32:44the home only attending church services
32:46with her family a few times
32:48Helen would tell her sister that she had
32:50attended a church picnic soon after they
32:52joined Redeemer Lutheran and that she
32:54had been given the cold shoulder by the
32:56other women you only got one chance with
32:59Helen Jean would say and John list was
33:01just plain strange they thought the
33:04neighbors said they'd wave at him and
33:05he'd pretend not to see them there was
33:08also the curious sight of list mowing
33:10his large lawn still dressed in a suit
33:13and tie Friends of their son Johnny
33:15would say he was always dressed like
33:18that always it was always a white shirt
33:20dark suit dark tie come hell or high
33:24water summer or winter as the children
33:27began to grow up John became even more
33:29strict with them he disapproved of many
33:32things it was the 1960s and kids were
33:35into rock music long hair marijuana and
33:38the Beatles this felt that moral decay
33:41was pervading the nation he would be
33:43damned if his kids would be part of it
33:45he began to structure their schedules
33:47much as his father had done schoolwork
33:49chores in church he felt his teen
33:52daughter Patricia was the most at risk
33:54she wore her hair long and parted in the
33:56middle like the hippie girls did and
33:58wore a leather jacket she could
34:00sometimes have a smart mouth and would
34:02even curse now and then Pat was most
34:05aware also of the reality of her home
34:07life she knew that her mother was
34:09mentally ill and probably an alcoholic
34:11and she knew that there was serious
34:13problems between her parents she also
34:16knew that even though they lived in a
34:17mansion in the most exclusive area of
34:19town they were poor it was worse than
34:23Pat even knew a year after being hired
34:26as the bank vice president list was
34:28fired he wasn't aware when he took the
34:30position that the bank expected him to
34:33bring a new business list didn't have
34:35the social skills to be a Salesman and
34:37the bank soon realized their mistake in
34:39hiring him list couldn't bring himself
34:43to report to his wife once again that he
34:45had failed
34:46instead he continued to get dressed each
34:48day in a suit and leave with his
34:50briefcase he would drive downtown and
34:53spend his days in the train station or
34:54sometimes in the park
34:56if the weather was good he did this for
34:58months
34:59he didn't tell Helen about losing his
35:01job until he finally secured another one
35:04in the meantime he withdrew money from
35:07his mother's bank account she had given
35:09him power of attorney when they moved to
35:11Westfield he viewed these as loans
35:14telling himself he'd pay her back once
35:16he was back on his feet he of course
35:18never told her he was withdrawing the
35:20money he was finally hired at a company
35:23called American photographic in New York
35:25City but his salary was less than half
35:27of what he made in his previous two jobs
35:29but that job also ended a year later
35:32when the company decided to relocate
35:35Helens health continued to get worse and
35:37she was hospitalized her condition of
35:40cerebral atrophy was diagnosed as a
35:42symptom of general paresis which was
35:44fatal list was urged to have his wife
35:46institutionalized but he refused he took
35:50out a four thousand dollar loan that he
35:52secured with the lien on the house two
35:54months later he got a second mortgage on
35:56the house for $7,000 with that he paid
35:59off the earlier four thousand now he
36:01worked out of his home selling mutual
36:03funds financially he was able to keep
36:06his head above water
36:07but just barely Brenda came to visit her
36:10sick mother and her family and would say
36:12mom just couldn't stop drinking and she
36:14kept making daddy buy her all these
36:16clothes
36:17Helen also increased her complaints
36:19about her husband to anyone who would
36:20listen even ridiculing his sexual
36:23abilities her brain disease caused her
36:25to be increasingly angry and paranoid
36:28[Music]
36:31while list was most critical of his
36:34daughter Pat many people remember her as
36:36a wonderful kind and independent young
36:38woman when Pat realized that they were
36:40broke she changed her high school track
36:42from college prep to vocational doing so
36:45would allow her to participate in the
36:47work-study program she could go to
36:49classes in the morning and work for
36:51credit as well as pay in the afternoons
36:54she got a job as a file clerk at kmv
36:57associates an insurance company downtown
36:59she was also able to secure a job for
37:02her younger brother Fred at the company
37:04as well he did light janitorial duties
37:07for 90 minutes after school every day
37:10they could both now contribute to the
37:11family's income as well as pay for their
37:13own simple expenses all the kids had
37:17their own unique talents and abilities
37:18and were good and responsible young
37:20people for all his belief that his
37:22children were losing their faith the
37:25list children were active in church Pat
37:27still sung in the choir and the boys
37:29attended confirmation classes and were
37:31members of the Boy Scouts Johnny was a
37:33strong boy and an athlete who played on
37:36his junior high soccer team fred
37:38reported on games for his school paper
37:40and wanted to be a sports writer Pat
37:42loved to sing and play the guitar she
37:45had recently joined a theater group that
37:46had formed at the high school she'd
37:49never acted before but took to it
37:50quickly and loved her time there she
37:52spent hours memorizing lines even when
37:55she was merely an understudy for the
37:58last production she was supposed to be a
37:59part of a streetcar named desire she not
38:02only learned the lines to understudy the
38:04part of Blanche DuBois but she learned
38:06everyone's lines in the play as well
38:08she'd had a small part in the first
38:11place she auditioned for little Abner
38:13she did not get a speaking role but only
38:15a brief part where she walked on stage
38:17and performed a comic bump-and-grind
38:19dance her parents came to see her in the
38:22play her mother came backstage
38:24afterwards to congratulate her but her
38:26father stomped off to the parking lot
38:28and waited behind the driver's seat with
38:30the engine running
38:31he clearly disapproved of her
38:33performance she stayed in the drama
38:35group over her father's objections now
38:40it was October 1971 and John list
38:43tallied up his debts he had three
38:45mortgages on his house totaling almost
38:47$50,000 they were all in arrears that
38:51year he'd made less than $5,000 selling
38:54insurance his children were the only
38:56ones bringing a regular paycheck home
38:58and his mother didn't know it but she
39:01was almost completely broke he was drawn
39:04almost all the money in her account
39:05overtime on October 14th he applied for
39:10a gun permit at the police station in
39:11town providing his fingerprints in the
39:13process for some reason he never
39:16returned to pick up the permit on
39:18November 5th he called his children
39:20together sternly and without explanation
39:23advised them to be prepared to die
39:25because they would do so soon would they
39:28prefer to be buried or cremated
39:30he asked the children shocked mumbled
39:33buried their father then walked into his
39:36office and shut the door it's unknown
39:39what the children made of this except
39:41for Pat she believed her father capable
39:44of harming his family and shared her
39:46fear with her drama teacher Edie Leon oh
39:48my father is going to kill me she cried
39:50after rehearsal the next night the
39:53teacher thought this was a typical
39:54overly dramatic teenage statement he
39:57somewhat amused told her that nobody was
39:59going to kill her she looked at him
40:01angrily and said he said he is going to
40:03kill me my brother's too he said that
40:06then she said listen if he tells you
40:09he's going to take the family on a trip
40:10for a couple of weeks that's it that's
40:13how he's going to do it he's going to
40:15make it look like we went away he didn't
40:18know what to believe
40:19later he'd wished he'd taken her
40:21seriously but it would be too late
40:24[Music]
40:29Tuesday November 9th 1971 Don bright and
40:33cold John list was up at 5:45 in the
40:36morning preparing for the events of the
40:38day but first he read the newspapers as
40:41was his habit John list was nothing if
40:43not a Manomet ikkyu lessly carried out
40:45habits there was a large picture of
40:48Charles Manson the alleged homicidal
40:50mastermind and leader of the cult like
40:52Manson family on the front page he
40:54grinned out of the photo looking for all
40:56the world like Satan himself the two
40:59hottest musicals of the year were
41:01advertised on the theatre page hare and
41:03Jesus Christ Superstar pure blasphemy
41:05list thought these shows build
41:08themselves the sharing the gospel of his
41:09Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but the
41:12actors would know more than unwashed
41:13hippies druggies and nearly nude harlots
41:16it was disgusting he thought to himself
41:18he also believed it was telling that the
41:21best-selling book that year was the
41:22Exorcist the whole country had gone to
41:25the devil but he'd make sure his family
41:27wasn't damned as well he packed his
41:30briefcase and small suitcase he'd also
41:33packed his passport but left his credit
41:35cards in his desk
41:36around 8 a.m. he heard the children come
41:39down one at a time and clutter around
41:41the kitchen eating breakfast by 8:30
41:43they had left the house list went to a
41:46cabinet and removed two pistols a 22
41:49caliber automatic and his antique
41:519-millimeter automatic each had
41:54magazines that held eight rounds each he
41:57laid the weapons on the desk
41:59soon after the milkman drove up and
42:01parked behind the house he walked into
42:04the unlocked back door where mrs. lists
42:06always left the note taped to the
42:07refrigerator listing the items he should
42:09leave the note was from mr. lists this
42:11time it said to stop deliveries until
42:14further notice because the family was
42:16going on vacation a few minutes later
42:19between 8:30 and 9:00 a.m. Helen came
42:22down to the kitchen and filled the tea
42:24kettle the kitchen was located on the
42:27right side of the rear of the house John
42:29quietly left his office with a nine
42:31millimeter in his hand
42:33Helen was sitting at the kitchen table
42:35he approached from behind on her left
42:37side she sensed him behind her as he
42:41raised the pistol about 18 inches from
42:43her head she was just beginning to turn
42:46her head slightly when he fired hitting
42:48her in the jaw he fired several more
42:50shots into her until she lay still he
42:54quickly made his way upstairs to the
42:56third floor
42:57he didn't knock before entering his
42:59mother's quarters she was in the small
43:01kitchen holding a plate and waiting for
43:03her toast to pop up startled at the
43:06sight of her son she asked what was that
43:08noise downstairs he raised the gun and
43:10shot her above the left eye almost at
43:12point-blank range he began to lift her
43:15from the floor to drag her downstairs
43:17and realized it would be impossible he
43:20couldn't move her that far he found a
43:22plastic carpet runner and pushed her
43:24body onto it before dragging it into the
43:26hallway just off the kitchen he went
43:29back downstairs to where his wife's body
43:31lay in the kitchen grabbing her feet he
43:34dragged her body across the floor out of
43:36the kitchen across the center hall and
43:38to the other side of the house finally
43:41he dragged her through the entrance to
43:42the ballroom he left her there while he
43:45retrieved three sleeping bags back in
43:47the ballroom he enrolled to placing
43:50side by side the third he left zipped
43:53and placed perpendicular to the other
43:54two he rolled Helen on to that sleeping
43:58bag facedown
43:59Helen was only wearing a nightie in a
44:01robe he covered her as best as he could
44:04with the robe and then placed a bath
44:06towel over the rest of her body and a
44:08kitchen towel over her face he was
44:11covered in blood he went upstairs to
44:13wash up and change but first he stopped
44:15in Helens bedroom they had been in
44:18separate bedrooms for some time without
44:20thinking John wiped his bloody hands on
44:22Helens bed sheets leaving trails of
44:25bright red across the sheets he began to
44:27feel nauseous and ran to the bathroom
44:29and vomited leaving a bloody handprint
44:31on the toilet lid he then showered and
44:34scrubbed off all the blood and changed
44:36into clean clothes he called the branch
44:39manager of the insurance company he knew
44:41he wouldn't be in yet he left a message
44:43saying he would have to cancel his
44:45monthly meeting that was scheduled for
44:4610:00 a.m. that day his wife's mother
44:49was very ill he explained and he was
44:51taking his family to take care of her he
44:54then began to write notes to cover the
44:56upcoming absences for his family members
44:58he wrote one to Westfield High School
45:00for Patty when to Roosevelt junior high
45:02for his sons and when to kmv associates
45:05where his two children worked their
45:07after-school jobs in each one he
45:09explained that the family left for an
45:11emergency trip to North Carolina he
45:14decided to rake the leaves one last time
45:16and then came inside and made a sandwich
45:18for lunch list had everything planned
45:21but just after noon there was a hitch
45:23Pat called to say that she wasn't
45:25feeling well and wouldn't be going to
45:27her after-school job could he pick her
45:29up at first he was annoyed but then
45:32realized this would solve the problem of
45:34his daughter and son riding home at the
45:36same time after work he drove to the
45:38school to pick up hat once they arrived
45:41home John hurried to beat Pat into the
45:44house she took a minute retrieving her
45:46books from the car before entering
45:48through the laundry room and into the
45:50kitchen she didn't see her father
45:52waiting behind the door he shot her once
45:55in the back of the head he then dragged
45:57her body into the ballroom and placed
45:59her on one of the open sleeping bags on
46:01the floor near her mother he washed and
46:03changed his
46:03again he had errands to attend to he
46:07drove first his suburban trust company
46:09where he cashed a check for $85 drawn
46:12from his joint count with Helen the
46:13balance after this withdrawal was twenty
46:15four dollars and fourteen cents he then
46:18went to the post office he mailed a
46:21special delivery letter to himself that
46:23held the key to his desk at another
46:25window he filled out a form to put a
46:27temporary vacation hold on the family's
46:29mail before leaving the post office he
46:31mailed the notes to his children's
46:33schools he drove to another bank and
46:36cashed a second check for $200 the
46:38balance available in his joint account
46:40with his mother he had already drained
46:42her account of over fifty thousand
46:44dollars he then visited one last bank
46:46here he was led to the vault where the
46:48safe deposit boxes were located he
46:51filled out an access slip that noted the
46:53time as 137 p.m. he removed a stack of
46:56savings bonds from it and took them to
46:58the teller cashing them in for a total
47:00of just over $2,000 he signed out of the
47:03vault at 1:57 p.m. meanwhile Fred
47:07arrived to his after-school job at kmv
47:09he was alarmed to learn that pat hadn't
47:11come into work he called home his father
47:14answered a secretary at kmv remembers
47:17him saying what happened to Patty Fred
47:20told his employers he needed to go home
47:22John now drove to pick up Fred when they
47:24arrived home he hurried ahead is he done
47:26with Pat and waited behind the door he
47:29shot him one time in the back of the
47:31head he then placed the body alongside
47:33his sister in the ballroom instead of
47:36waiting for Johnny to return home on his
47:37own list went to the school where he was
47:40playing a practice soccer game list sat
47:42there watching him play and then drove
47:44him home he had the gun with him this
47:47time
47:47the boy put his gym bag on the kitchen
47:50counter his father walked in the house
47:52behind him and shot him but Johnny
47:55didn't go down immediately like the
47:56others the first shot didn't hit him in
47:59the head but the back it seems list
48:01panicked and continued to shoot his
48:03oldest son a total of ten times before
48:06he was sure he was dead he dragged him
48:08to the ballroom and laid him on the
48:10sleeping bag near the rest of the family
48:12ever meticulous list straight in the
48:14sleeping bags until they were perfectly
48:16aligned
48:17then said he said a prayer over their
48:19bodies before turning out the ballroom
48:21light about 7:00 p.m. he called his
48:24pastor to say that his family was
48:25already on a plane for North Carolina
48:27and he'd be joining them soon
48:29he apologized that he wouldn't be able
48:31to teach the Sunday School class that
48:33weekend next he called Pats drama group
48:36he reached the assistant Barbara
48:38Sheridan telling her Pat would be
48:40missing rehearsals for a while he wasn't
48:43sure how long my mother-in-law is very
48:45sick he explained that evening he wrote
48:49the letters he would place in the manila
48:50envelope with a confession letter to his
48:52pastor he wrote to Helens mother
48:55I just couldn't support them anymore and
48:57I didn't want them to go into poverty to
49:00Helens sister he shortened the message
49:02saying I'm sorry it had to go that way
49:05but when I couldn't support them I
49:07couldn't let them go on welfare etc to
49:10his mother's sister he wrote more
49:12poetically this was the only solution I
49:14could see for the family and a save
49:17mother untold anguish over that result I
49:19felt at best that she be relieved from
49:21this veil of Tears at the end of each
49:24one he signed off with please accept my
49:27sincere condolences it was late but
49:30realizing he was hungry
49:32he went into the kitchen and made
49:33himself dinner he washed his dishes and
49:36left them on the drain board he went to
49:38the billiard room and slept he was up
49:41and ready to leave before dawn his final
49:43tasks were to turn the thermostat down
49:45to 50 degrees high enough so the pipes
49:48wouldn't burst from the cold but cool
49:50enough to [ __ ] the composition of the
49:52bodies he switched on all of the lights
49:55in the house saved the ballroom lights
49:57finally he turned the radio to the
49:59classical station which would be piped
50:01throughout the first floor speakers he
50:04gathered his small bag in his briefcase
50:05and left by the back door he drove his
50:081963 Chevy Impala downtown all shops and
50:12businesses were shuttered and quiet
50:14he stopped briefly in front of kmv
50:16associates where Pat and Fred worked and
50:18quickly slipped the envelope with the
50:20absence excuse letter under the front
50:22door he drove the 38 miles into
50:24Manhattan to John F Kennedy
50:26International Airport and parked his car
50:28in the long term parking lot
50:30he tucked the keys under the front seat
50:33and locked the doors before walking into
50:35the terminal John lists neaten have
50:37hurried his family would not be found
50:39his terrible deed not discovered for 28
50:42days John Emil list would not be seen
50:46again
50:46for 18 years John list had seemingly
50:54disappeared without a trace
50:56the police would conduct a search but no
50:58one had a clue where he could be two
51:01days after the bodies were discovered
51:02the last trace of John list would be
51:05found his car was discovered parked at
51:07Kennedy Airport
51:08now the FBI was called in as it was
51:11determined lists must have fled the
51:13state if not the country they discovered
51:15that lists passport was missing from the
51:17house so they assumed he may have
51:19skipped the country however no one using
51:22his passport had been checked through
51:23customs the investigation was at a dead
51:26end the story became a media frenzy such
51:29a sensational crime had never occurred
51:31in these parts especially since it
51:34concerns such normal middle-class people
51:36mob hits sure drug deal gone bad perhaps
51:40but it was unheard of for a nice family
51:42to be executed in such a heinous way the
51:46police did a poor job of securing the
51:47crime scene after the fact before long
51:50people including reporters photographers
51:52and just plain citizens were tramping
51:55through the house taking pictures and
51:57even souvenirs family pictures were
51:59taken out of their frames the mailbox
52:02the brass knockers and the house number
52:04had all been stolen by souvenir hunters
52:06the lists families meager amount of
52:08furnishings left had to be sold to pay
52:10for the funeral costs there was no money
52:12left in any of the accounts the family's
52:16funeral was held on December 10th
52:17Helen's family the children's friends
52:20and a stunned community were all in
52:22attendance as the list family was laid
52:24to rest in Fairview Cemetery all but
52:27Alma were buried in a single plot after
52:30the funeral Alma lists body was sent to
52:32Michigan to be buried alongside her
52:34husband a bizarre coincidence occurred
52:37soon after lists disappearance that made
52:39some speculate that he had continued his
52:41life of crime on Thanksgiving after the
52:44murders before the bodies were
52:45discovered a polite soft-spoken
52:47middle-aged man wearing glasses hijacked
52:50a Northwest orient flight forced to land
52:53where he picked up two hundred thousand
52:55dollars in ransom money before once
52:57again taking flight the man then
52:59parachuted out of the plane at 10,000
53:01feet over the Cascade Mountains in
53:03Washington state the man known as DB
53:06Cooper was never found some thought that
53:09John list might be the mysterious DB
53:11Cooper he somewhat resembled the sketch
53:13of the hijacker most thought it was
53:16ludicrous John list wasn't even strong
53:18enough to lift his 85 year old mother
53:20and he was in no way athletic enough to
53:22pull off such a feat still it made for
53:25interesting barroom conversation on
53:27August 30th 1972 nine months after the
53:31murders the lists home burned down the
53:34fire had started in the center hall and
53:36the flames spread quickly because local
53:39teens had been daring each other to
53:40enter the house and some had even tried
53:42to conjure up spirits in one way or
53:44another authorities that first believed
53:46it had been started by a leftover candle
53:48or another careless act but it would
53:51later be determined that the fire had
53:53been started by an arsonist the person
53:55or persons who deliberately set fire to
53:57reason all were never identified in a
54:01final irony the stained glass skylight
54:03above the ballroom that list turned into
54:05a morgue after the fire the window now
54:08ruined was discovered to be a Tiffany
54:11original it would have been worth over a
54:13hundred thousand dollars at the time
54:15more than enough for a list to pay off
54:17his debts
54:19[Music]
54:21and where was John list well later he
54:26would say that he'd always wanted to see
54:27the Rocky Mountains
54:28so he'd purchased a plane ticket to
54:30Colorado he had obtained identification
54:33under the name Robert P Clarke the name
54:36of his long ago college classmate he
54:39bought a small trailer in a mobile home
54:40park with $1,500 cash no questions asked
54:44he lived simply purchasing a small
54:47television from a local Walmart and
54:49furnishing his trailer with a small bed
54:51table and a couple of chairs he read the
54:54newspapers every day and was surprised
54:56not to read anything about his crime for
54:58several weeks on December 10th he read
55:01about the discovery of the bodies in the
55:03Rocky Mountain News he found a job as a
55:06nightshift cook at a Holiday Inn outside
55:08of Denver restaurant employees
55:10especially those working night shifts
55:12had high turnover rates Bob Clark became
55:15a fixture he was reliable and dependable
55:17and seemed content to work without
55:19complaint as to the hours or the pay he
55:23was polite and quiet although he did
55:25seem to be a bit of a hypochondriac
55:27always complaining of some ache or pain
55:29the boss found him so dependable that he
55:32eventually made him the kitchen
55:34assistant then when he moved on to take
55:36a better job at a country club
55:38he took Bob Clark with him list aka Bob
55:42Clark would work there for three years
55:44because he'd been brought along he'd had
55:47no need to fill out a resume or undergo
55:49a background check
55:50he had easily obtained a social security
55:52number using the Robert Clark alias
55:55after some time his boss learned that he
55:58had previously been an accountant
55:59Bob just explained that he'd been burned
56:02out by the stress and decided to live
56:03life more simply his employer put his
56:06skill with numbers to good use helping
56:09to make sure the kitchen ran profitably
56:11his next goal was to obtain the driver's
56:13license which he was able to do after he
56:16could prove work and rental history and
56:18a telephone number in the 1970s it was
56:21that simple Bob would eventually joined
56:23st. Paul's Lutheran Church in Denver he
56:26eventually let the pastor know about his
56:28accounting degree and he was appointed
56:30to the parish finance Council Bob began
56:33attending church sponsored singles
56:34functions
56:35and in 1977 he made a recent divorcee
56:38named Dolores Miller Bob got to know
56:41Dolores and told her he was 46 years old
56:436 years younger than his actual age
56:46Dolores was interested in seriously
56:48dating anyone but he was persistent and
56:51she thought him nice enough
56:52before long others simply saw them as a
56:54couple he told her his wife had died of
56:57cancer after a long illness he didn't
57:00like to share details and she chalked it
57:02up to him grieving his late wife she
57:04didn't ask any more questions he
57:07enrolled in classes to become a
57:08certified tax preparer for H&R block by
57:111977 he was back in the accounting
57:14business when tax season was over he
57:17found a job at a carpet business doing
57:18their books he was employed there for
57:21two years
57:21he found an apartment close to where
57:23Dolores lived and continued to reside
57:26there for seven years in 1979 he found a
57:30better job as an office manager at a
57:31packaging company where he was paid $300
57:34a week now he and Dolores started
57:37considering a future together
57:38in 1981 they purchased a condominium
57:42together for twenty six thousand nine
57:44hundred dollars Dolores moved in while
57:47Bob continued to live in his apartment
57:49he then invested his savings in a Direct
57:52Mail franchise it didn't pan out and he
57:54lost most of his savings in the venture
57:56but he'd been promoted to Comptroller at
57:59the packaging company and given a raise
58:01to four hundred ninety dollars a week in
58:041985 Dolores finally agreed to marry him
58:07they were married in Maryland where
58:09Dolores had relatives five months after
58:12the wedding Bob was laid off
58:14Dolores took a job to tide them over but
58:17he had trouble finding another position
58:19by 1986 Dolores was tired of carrying
58:22her new husband she told their neighbor
58:25Wanda Flanery if he didn't find a job
58:27soon she was leaving him Wanda liked Bob
58:30she thought he was a nice man and a
58:32gentleman and he clearly loved his bride
58:34she felt sorry for him she could see he
58:37wasn't lazy he would dress up in a suit
58:39every day and look for work he just
58:42hadn't had any luck yet in February of
58:451987 Wanda as was her habit
58:48up one of the tabloid papers you find in
58:50the grocery store near the checkout
58:52aisle this one was the Weekly World News
58:54it was full of salacious gossip and was
58:57Wanda's guilty pleasure she was flipping
59:00through the paper and saw an article
59:01titled the perfect crime
59:03it was the story of a mass murderer who
59:05killed his entire family in 1971 and
59:08simply disappeared there was a 15 year
59:11old picture of the one in man and Wanda
59:13looked outside her window to see her
59:15neighbor Bob Clark who looked remarkably
59:17like the man in the photograph she told
59:20her daughter who was visiting but her
59:22daughter told her she was crazy don't be
59:24a busybody she said but Wanda ticked off
59:28the similarities between the fugitive
59:29and her neighbor
59:30besides the resemblance the article
59:33stated that John list was polite formal
59:35and distant check it also said he was
59:38very religious and a practicing Lutheran
59:40check he was a pleasant and orderly man
59:44who were a coat and tie even on casual
59:46occasions check he'd worked as an
59:49accountant check he bounced from job to
59:52job and had persistent money problems
59:54check and check even more startling it
59:57said that list had a mastoidectomy scar
59:59that ran from the base of his right ear
1:00:01to his collar check Wanda had also
1:00:05suspected that bob was somewhat older
1:00:07than he'd said which lined up with the
1:00:09age of the fugitive now she was in a
1:00:12quandary should she tell her friend
1:00:14Delores about her suspicions concerning
1:00:16her husband or what she thinks she was
1:00:18crazy or even get angry the next day she
1:00:22decided to show her the article if he
1:00:25was dangerous she would never forgive
1:00:27herself if something happened to her
1:00:28friend she knocked on their door when
1:00:30she knew Bob was gone
1:00:32read this honey she said Delores didn't
1:00:35was confused and she said don't you
1:00:39think that's Bob she asked Delores
1:00:41giggled oh gosh no Bob wouldn't hurt a
1:00:43flea she laughed why don't you show this
1:00:46to Bob just see what he says one to urge
1:00:49okay I guess I could for fun she said
1:00:52still amused the next day she went to
1:00:55visit her friend what did he say about
1:00:57the article Wanda asked what article
1:00:59Delores answered oh that I
1:01:02threw it out that man wasn't anything
1:01:03like Bob I'm sorry did you want it back
1:01:06she asked no that's okay Wanda answered
1:01:09and let the matter drop Bob finally
1:01:12received a job offer from a firm in
1:01:14Richmond Virginia
1:01:15he thought he could convince Delores to
1:01:17move there since her family didn't live
1:01:18far away he went ahead of her to get
1:01:21settled while Delores worked on securing
1:01:23a transfer from her company to the
1:01:24Richmond area all Bob didn't have any
1:01:27money to speak of Delores did they
1:01:30decided to put some of it towards a down
1:01:31payment on a house in Virginia they
1:01:34began their house hunt
1:01:35they found a ranch house and were able
1:01:38to purchase it for seventy two thousand
1:01:40dollars it would be John lists last home
1:01:47America's most wanted was a program that
1:01:49began airing as a half-hour show in
1:01:51February of 1988 each episode featured
1:01:54dramatizations of crimes where the
1:01:56perpetrator was still at large
1:01:58at the end of each episode a picture and
1:02:01description of the wanted person was
1:02:02displayed along with a hotline number
1:02:04that tipster could call in to
1:02:06immediately after the show after
1:02:08watching America's Most Wanted captain
1:02:11Frank maracas head of the Homicide
1:02:13Division for Union County New Jersey
1:02:14wanted to get the list case on the show
1:02:17he sent a letter to the producers they
1:02:20sent back a reply stating they weren't
1:02:22interested the case was too old and the
1:02:25show was too new to take on such a
1:02:26hopeless case nine months later Branca
1:02:29attended a law enforcement conference in
1:02:31Delaware where the executive producer
1:02:33for America's Most Wanted would be
1:02:35speaking he approached him at the
1:02:37conference and asked to speak with him
1:02:39he brought a box of evidence including
1:02:41crime-scene photos to show him the
1:02:43details of the case the ballroom the
1:02:46Sunday school teacher the confession
1:02:48letter intrigued him he was sold he told
1:02:51them he'd order a segment about the list
1:02:53case for a future show but one element
1:02:57was lacking that was needed for the
1:02:58program a photo of the fugitive the
1:03:01photos they had were almost two decades
1:03:03old the producer knew a commercial
1:03:05photographer and sculptor named Frank
1:03:07bender he'd been working with police
1:03:09departments to reconstruct clay models
1:03:11of decomposed bodies that needed to be
1:03:13identified
1:03:15commissioned him for $1,500 to make an
1:03:17updated bust of a now 64 year old John
1:03:20list
1:03:21bender worked with a criminal
1:03:23psychologist Richard Walter who helped
1:03:25with the profile they theorized what
1:03:27he'd looked like today including the
1:03:29style of eyeglasses he would wear the
1:03:32type of clothes he'd most likely dress
1:03:33in etc they produced a clay bust of the
1:03:36pancha older version of John list with a
1:03:38receding hairline the 10-pound clay head
1:03:42was shown along with the segments on an
1:03:43episode of America's Most Wanted
1:03:45the aired on Sunday night May 21st 1989
1:03:49Wanda was no longer neighbors with the
1:03:51Clarks but she still correspondent with
1:03:54her friend Dolores
1:03:55after watching the program she knew she
1:03:57had to act she grabbed the last letter
1:04:00she'd received from her friend with her
1:04:01new address and asked her son to call
1:04:03the hotline she heard her son asking if
1:04:06there was a reward something she had not
1:04:08asked him to do when they said they
1:04:10weren't sure he hung up she told him to
1:04:13call back and give them the address like
1:04:15she told him to he called back and
1:04:18supplied the information the tip called
1:04:20in by Wanda Flanery son was forwarded to
1:04:22the Richmond Virginia FBI office they
1:04:25made some inquiries by phone to get more
1:04:27details the age of this man called Bob
1:04:30Clark seemed to be in the ballpark he
1:04:33was religious attended Lutheran churches
1:04:35he was an accountant well-dressed
1:04:37no children they felt it was worth the
1:04:40trip to check out Bob Clark they arrived
1:04:43on the morning of June 1st 1989 to the
1:04:46house owned by Bob and Delores Clark
1:04:48Delores answered the door and they
1:04:50identified themselves as FBI agents bob
1:04:53was at home she said he was at work they
1:04:56asked to come in where they showed her
1:04:57the FBI flier with John lists wanted
1:04:59status and photo could this possibly be
1:05:02your husband they asked that looks like
1:05:05it could be my husband
1:05:06she answered shaking but it can't be
1:05:10he's the nicest man in the world she
1:05:13began to cry they told her it might be a
1:05:16coincidence it often was trying to calm
1:05:19her down they asked her for a picture of
1:05:21her husband she showed them their
1:05:23wedding photo
1:05:23the agents believed there was no
1:05:25question now Delores Clark's husband was
1:05:28the
1:05:29in fugitive John list they obtained the
1:05:32address of Bob's office and made the
1:05:33short drive there when they arrived they
1:05:36found him coming down a hallway from the
1:05:38copy room Mr Clarke they addressed him
1:05:41we're with the FBI he showed no fear or
1:05:44concern would you tell us your name
1:05:46please Robert Clark he answered are you
1:05:51John Emma list they asked no he answered
1:05:54without question or hesitation then you
1:05:56won't mind coming down to the police
1:05:57station for fingerprints they said they
1:06:00cuffed him and read him his Miranda
1:06:01rights they realized he'd never even
1:06:04asked what the charge was even guilty
1:06:06people asked that question they thought
1:06:08once they got his fingerprints they
1:06:10determined that he was indeed John list
1:06:12after 18 years the fugitive was captured
1:06:15he was held on the federal charge of
1:06:17being a fugitive from prosecution for
1:06:19homicide a week after he was arrested he
1:06:22entered a plea of not guilty and bond
1:06:24was set at 1 million dollars prosecutors
1:06:27then moved to drop the fugitive charge
1:06:29to quickly extradite him back to New
1:06:31Jersey to be charged with five counts of
1:06:33first degree murder once in New Jersey
1:06:36he was put into protective custody in a
1:06:38private cell as was the usual procedure
1:06:40for the most infamous criminals he
1:06:43quickly proved to be a model prisoner
1:06:44still the meticulous rule-follower his
1:06:47court-appointed attorney knew his only
1:06:49chance to defend his client was to prove
1:06:51he had committed the crimes under
1:06:52extreme stress he also tried to get the
1:06:55confession letter excluded as it was
1:06:57addressed to list pastor and he argued
1:07:00was privileged communication list never
1:07:03protested that he was innocent but
1:07:05strangely he continued to insist that
1:07:07his name was Robert Clarke while he was
1:07:09awaiting trial Jean Seifert Helen's
1:07:12sister arrived with her husband to
1:07:14confront her former brother-in-law she
1:07:16at first had no idea what she would say
1:07:18to him as they entered he nodded stiffly
1:07:21to them she surprised herself when she
1:07:24reached out and gave him a hug for the
1:07:26first time ever she saw him cry they
1:07:29begin to talk not of the crimes at first
1:07:32but eventually she had to ask one
1:07:34question why John she simply asked
1:07:37without emotion he answered because
1:07:40there was no other way
1:07:42why was there no other way she pressed
1:07:44it just had to be that way he said she
1:07:47could tell the subject was closed she
1:07:50wanted to ask him then why didn't you
1:07:52kill yourself that night too
1:07:53but she couldn't bring herself to ask it
1:07:56he asked her about Brenda his
1:07:58stepdaughter
1:07:59and found out she was now a grandmother
1:08:01he learned that Helens mother had died
1:08:03two years earlier and he asked about
1:08:05genes children he joked about the DB
1:08:08Cooper rumors he was so controlled she
1:08:11didn't believe he was insane not at all
1:08:13she saw arrogance coldness and
1:08:16calculated evil but not insanity
1:08:19Bernhard Tracey a detective who had been
1:08:21given the John list case in its final
1:08:23years had been a teenager in 1971 he was
1:08:27one of the teens who would drive up to
1:08:29the abandoned list house on dares with
1:08:31his friends he said this about lists the
1:08:34guy is a mean arrogant selfish
1:08:36hypocritical piece of [ __ ] Bob Wetmore
1:08:40lists coworker at the restaurant
1:08:42Colorado who got to know Bob Clark well
1:08:44said after a while I did begin to
1:08:47realize that he had a devious mind and
1:08:50was a cold calculating son-of-a-bitch
1:08:54[Music]
1:08:56on April 12th 1990 after seven days of
1:09:00testimony the jury found John list
1:09:02guilty of five counts of murder in the
1:09:04first degree
1:09:05there was no capital punishment in the
1:09:07state of New Jersey at the time so he
1:09:09was spared the death sentence he was
1:09:12[ __ ] given the maximum sentence of five
1:09:14consecutive life terms ensuring that he
1:09:16would never be eligible for parole at a
1:09:19sentencing the judge said the name John
1:09:22Emma list will be eternally synonymous
1:09:24with the concepts of selfishness horror
1:09:27and evil John Emma list he said
1:09:30repeating his true name is without
1:09:33remorse and without honor after 18 years
1:09:36five months and 22 days it is now time
1:09:40for the voices of Helen Alma Patricia
1:09:43Frederick and John F list to rise from
1:09:47the grave Delores Miller divorced John
1:09:49list aka Robert Clarke in 1989 John list
1:09:54died in 2008 from complications of
1:09:56pneumonia at the age of 82 he'd served
1:10:0019 years in prison okay so I'm sure
1:10:06you're wondering as I was when
1:10:07researching this case what the hell was
1:10:10wrong with this guy what could really
1:10:12cause him to do such a thing
1:10:14and it seems live with it quite easily
1:10:17so here are a few thoughts and
1:10:19observations the psychiatrist who
1:10:22interviewed him before his trial said
1:10:24that John list was not insane in his
1:10:26opinion he did say that list had an
1:10:29extreme form of obsessive compulsive
1:10:31disorder this he said caused him to fix
1:10:34on a task and then he would never waver
1:10:36from it he wouldn't stop to think of a
1:10:38plan B or assess if what he was doing
1:10:41was good or bad right or wrong his
1:10:44obsessive personality didn't allow for
1:10:46much more than black and white thinking
1:10:48that's interesting but OCD as far as I
1:10:51know has never been correlated with
1:10:53homicidal impulses so there has to be
1:10:56more one glaring issue was that list
1:10:58almost never showed an emotion of any
1:11:00kind no sadness no remorse or guilt from
1:11:04what I could gather he never thought or
1:11:06spoke of his murdered wife children or
1:11:08mother he said he would say
1:11:10prayer for them each November ninth the
1:11:13anniversary of the murder but that was
1:11:15it even when he reported that he showed
1:11:18no sadness at all list was raised by two
1:11:20very stoic parents his father never
1:11:23showed him any affection he didn't
1:11:25believe in it
1:11:26he thought it showed weakness his mother
1:11:28loved him but she wasn't affection
1:11:30either to her showing affection meant
1:11:32taking care of him making sure he was
1:11:35fed kept healthy and taught to follow
1:11:37the Bible she was certainly
1:11:39overprotective and perhaps overly
1:11:41attached to her only child but Elma
1:11:44wasn't warm or emotionally demonstrative
1:11:46so he had no examples from his
1:11:48upbringing on how to express his
1:11:50emotions in the ways of human
1:11:52interaction he was stunted and repressed
1:11:55what his father did teach him was
1:11:57obedience in the list house it was all
1:11:59about being obedient to your parents to
1:12:01God and to other authority figures
1:12:03teachers the government etc John list
1:12:07was a faithful church goer all of his
1:12:09life and was an active participant in
1:12:11the Lutheran Church list didn't
1:12:13understand emotions and wasn't very
1:12:15skilled at human interactions but he
1:12:17could follow rules and structure very
1:12:19well but church provided this for him as
1:12:22did the army later on he did well in
1:12:25jobs that had a structured set of
1:12:26functions that he was able to learn and
1:12:28carry out but when it came to more
1:12:31complex skills like managing people in
1:12:33interacting with clients to make a sale
1:12:35he was unsuccessful he also had ideas of
1:12:38what made a good father and by most
1:12:40accounts John list was a good father he
1:12:43spent time with his children in
1:12:44structured activities like Boy Scouts
1:12:46church and even sports list was no
1:12:49skilled athlete but he'd spent time
1:12:51throwing the ball with his sons
1:12:53neighbors found it comical the way he
1:12:55throw with his arm bent at the elbow he
1:12:58pulled his throwing hand way back before
1:12:59releasing but wouldn't extend is on
1:13:02fully so the ball would drop to the
1:13:04ground just a few feet away but he did
1:13:06make an effort with his daughter he
1:13:08wasn't quite sure how to interact they
1:13:11had Church and that was all the things
1:13:13Patricia was interested in music and
1:13:15acting he felt what a waste of time and
1:13:18possibly sinful his stepdaughter Brenda
1:13:21recalls good times with her stepfather
1:13:22they enjoyed going ice fish
1:13:24together again a pretty structured
1:13:26activity and not one typical for father
1:13:29and daughter to spend time doing
1:13:30together but Brenda enjoyed it as a
1:13:33husband list was also following a set of
1:13:35guidelines he had in his head he met a
1:13:37pretty woman the first one he had ever
1:13:39dated seriously and decided he was in
1:13:41love
1:13:42so that just left getting married
1:13:44luckily she was looking for a husband at
1:13:46the time with his second wife Delores he
1:13:49also wanted to marry right away but she
1:13:51stalled him for some time before she
1:13:53finally agreed again he never wavered in
1:13:56his goal to marry her and finally did
1:13:58emotionally I don't think John list ever
1:14:00had a real connection with anyone he
1:14:03didn't an interview from prison
1:14:04detailing the murders and his reasons
1:14:07for them in a very matter-of-fact way it
1:14:09was completely devoid of emotion even
1:14:11when he spoke of killing his children
1:14:13it's chilling here's an example where he
1:14:16even chuckles when describing how he
1:14:18placed their dead bodies on sleeping
1:14:20bags and his reasons for doing so
1:14:29there was no carpet in most of the house
1:14:32that was the one thing that was trying
1:14:35to burn rent
1:14:36was there any wounds are suffering no
1:14:40it's the last moment how compassionate
1:14:47Helen lists only requirements for her
1:14:49husband she expressed this pretty early
1:14:51in their marriage was that he provide a
1:14:54good income and all the material
1:14:56comforts she desired he set that as his
1:14:58goal and continued to do so even when
1:15:01their financial situation was rocky in
1:15:03effect he bought her love and loyalty
1:15:06when he could no longer do so he didn't
1:15:09have a plan B one thing John list
1:15:12desired for himself was status o
1:15:14provided him with this status it was the
1:15:17most exclusive neighborhood in the area
1:15:20having a title he believed also provided
1:15:23him status a couple of times he had a
1:15:25good job situation but left to take a
1:15:27position with a more prestigious title
1:15:29and of course better pay something he
1:15:32needed to keep his wife happy as well
1:15:34what about list stated reasons for
1:15:37killing his family he said that number
1:15:39one he was unable to provide for them
1:15:41anymore he explained that he couldn't
1:15:44put them through the indignity of having
1:15:45to go on welfare he said he was trying
1:15:48to save them from a life of poverty but
1:15:50I have to call [ __ ] on that I don't
1:15:53really believe that that was the issue
1:15:55they could have downsized to a more
1:15:57affordable house the kids had jobs this
1:16:00could have gotten another job I'll be at
1:16:02one without a title or as large a salary
1:16:04perhaps but they could have pulled
1:16:06through if they budgeted his wife was
1:16:08dying she was no longer out shopping or
1:16:10even drinking anymore her daughter
1:16:13reports that she had stopped drinking by
1:16:14the time of her death she was so ill
1:16:17that she didn't care for it anymore
1:16:18no I think he wanted a fresh start for
1:16:21himself
1:16:22he wanted to walk away without any
1:16:24entanglements without any financial
1:16:26burdens and he did so for 18 years
1:16:31lastly he said he was trying to save the
1:16:33souls of his family he said they were
1:16:36going down the wrong path and the only
1:16:38way that he could be sure that they
1:16:39would go to heaven was to kill them
1:16:41before their sins condemn them but
1:16:43that's a very convenient excuse and
1:16:45completely hypocritical what about the
1:16:48commandment thou shalt not kill he knew
1:16:51his Bible he knew taking innocent lives
1:16:53was wrong he was not God but he decided
1:16:56that he would be judge jury and
1:16:58executioner of his entire family
1:17:00I believe his loss of status career-wise
1:17:03and financially caused him to have an
1:17:06existential identity crisis that he
1:17:08couldn't or wouldn't deal with his only
1:17:11solution was to completely start over
1:17:13and that meant wiping out his past
1:17:15completely his wife his mother his
1:17:18children and his own identity his last
1:17:21holdout was his refusal to be called by
1:17:23the name he'd used in his previous life
1:17:25John Emel list that I believe sums up
1:17:29his real motivation for murder that will
1:17:36do it for this episode of once upon a
1:17:37crime thanks to all our new patreon
1:17:40supporters I am so grateful for your
1:17:42support I released the first premium
1:17:44episode for supporters this week and I'm
1:17:46looking forward to sharing more premium
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1:18:03accounts are in the show notes once upon
1:18:06a crime is written produced and edited
1:18:08by me
1:18:09Esther Ludlow until next time be good to
1:18:12one another
1:18:14[Music]
1:18:31you
1:19:04[Music]
1:19:10[Music]
1:19:14you

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