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EP317 - How a $50,000 Mistake Became a Learning Opportunity ft Navah Hopkins (video) — Transcript

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0:01[Music]
0:08Hello and welcome to PPC Live, the
0:11podcast formally the PPC chat roundup.
0:14My name is Anu, the founder of PPC Live.
0:17And if you are used to hearing advice
0:19from PPC experts about how to ensure
0:22that we are keeping up with the
0:24everanging landscape, don't worry, you
0:26are still in the right place. But
0:29instead of me relaying what the PBC
0:31experts are saying, I'm going to be
0:33bringing the PPC experts to you every
0:36week, I'm going to be speaking to a
0:38different PPC expert about their biggest
0:41FOPS, but how they've also turned things
0:44around. We're going to share what has
0:46been disappointing, who has been
0:48supportive along the way, what our
0:51clients have been like in those
0:53situations because loads of the expert
0:55I'll speak to will be people who worked
0:57in agencies or had their own agency or
1:00have their own consultancy and we'll
1:01talk about how they recovered from it
1:03and how it has led to some of the
1:05biggest triumphs. Now today I am so
1:08delighted to speak to one of the biggest
1:11experts in our field. We're going to be
1:13speaking to Nava Hopkins who's the
1:15evangelist at Optimizer. She's a
1:18frequent speaker at major industry
1:20conferences. I'm always bump into her to
1:23as one conference or the other. She's
1:25always contributing to whether it's
1:27search engine land or search engine
1:28journal and also getting always gets
1:32involved in the conversations that
1:34Google and Microsoft has about the
1:36products before they even release them.
1:38So, she's one of those people that knows
1:41what's going on, has um close to two
1:44decades of experience, is someone that
1:46we really should pay attention to. In
1:48this episode, she talks about a highly
1:51costly a costly mistake that she
1:54experienced, and we talk about how
1:55trusting automated tools without proper
1:58safeguards can lead to expensive
2:00mistakes. The importance of documenting
2:02your concerns when you know clients
2:04especially push for a particular
2:06solution. Why establishing a strong
2:09relationship with in-house teams can
2:10save you when things go wrong. Smart
2:13ways to leverage portfolio bidding flaws
2:16and ceilings to prevent budget disasters
2:19and how to approach AI as a partner
2:22rather than delegating your strategic
2:24thinking. This conversation is very much
2:27all about failing with grace. She's
2:29someone that says that she speaks about
2:31that a lot and she's going to keep
2:32speaking about that here. failing with
2:34grace and talks about how she was able
2:36to really survive and recover from this
2:38very costly mistake. So without further
2:41ado, let's dive in and hear all from
2:43Nava. Hello there. I am so thrilled
2:47today to welcome a true powerhouse in
2:50the world of PPC and digital marketing,
2:53Nava Hopkins. She's the evangelist at
2:56Optimizer, a frequent speaker at major
2:59industry conferences like SMX and
3:01Herocom. Actually, I think the only time
3:03that Naba and I meet in person is at a
3:06conference. We're always bumping into
3:07different conferences, whether it's in
3:09the UK, Berlin, Munich, different parts
3:13of the world. It's fantastic. She's a
3:14seasoned strategist with close to close
3:18to two decades. She corrected me on
3:20this. I made it a bit shorter. She's
3:21close to two decades of experience
3:24helping brands and agencies scale
3:26through smart automation and datadriven
3:30insights. She's even one of those that
3:32Google and Microsoft comes to to gain
3:35insight about the industry and features
3:38they are about to release. Nava is also
3:40a regular contributor to search engine
3:43journal but more importantly search
3:44engine land cuz I work there and yeah
3:48she shares deep knowledge of paid search
3:51audience targeting and performance
3:53optimization. I'm so thrilled for this.
3:56Welcome Nava. Welcome to the PBC live
3:58podcast. Thank you so much for having me
4:02for the gracious intro. I'm super
4:04excited to talk about this because I
4:06know our episode is about failures and
4:08if there's one thing I think we all need
4:11right now is to learn how to fail with
4:13grace. Grace for ourselves, grace for
4:16our clients, grace in general. So
4:19delighted to be here. Amazing. And yeah,
4:21we'll get even into more about that
4:23about how we do that properly and why
4:25it's important to talk about this, but
4:28let's get straight into it now. So tell
4:30us what is the f up that you want to
4:32talk about today. So this
4:36is really embarrassing. I once, because
4:40I very well-intentioned trusted the
4:43tools and trusted the tools would behave
4:44the way that they said that they would
4:46behave, spent
4:49$50,000 in 3 days. That was supposed to
4:52be the budget for the month. Now, how
4:55that happened is I had a really
5:00wellrunning campaign. It was driving
5:03great conversions. It was really firing
5:06on all cylinders. And the suggestion
5:09came up, hey, max conversions would
5:12probably serve you better than manual
5:16CPC. This was in the earlier days when
5:19smart bidding was still finding its
5:21feed. And I'm like, you know what? Let's
5:23test this. Let's see how we go. And the
5:25problem was I made that
5:29change 2 days prior to the start of the
5:34new month. So the budget ended up
5:38getting really discombobulated during
5:41the learning period and so it was like
5:43we're trying to do max conversions and
5:46the client at the same time was like you
5:48guys are doing great take more money put
5:50more budget in and so that perfect storm
5:52of towards the end of the month more
5:55budget which would initiate learning
5:56periods anyway and switching the bidding
5:59strategy led to a very angry scary
6:04conversation.
6:05Now, I'll say that the client ended up
6:07actually staying even with that F up.
6:09And I'm happy to talk about all the
6:11different parts of what happened there,
6:12but this is just to tell you that even
6:16those of us who were seen as gurus or
6:18like these industry influencers in the
6:22space, we all have these moments of, "Oh
6:24my god, this is terrible. I have
6:28just royally screwed myself, my client.
6:32What do I do?" and everything is
6:34fixable. So if you take nothing else
6:36away and you turn off the episode right
6:38now, if we could walk back and survive
6:42that
6:43$50,000 ad spend and again having to get
6:46into all those
6:47details, I promise you whatever
6:50situation you find yourself in, you can
6:53overcome it. Absolutely. Wow. Yeah.
6:56Spending a one month budget in 3 days,
6:59it was terrible. I was Oh god, I'd be
7:01scared. Yeah. I'd be like going like
7:03where is the alcohol in my house
7:04straight away to get over this feeling
7:07anyway and I'm sure people are
7:09interested with this because it happens
7:11that budget spending even like bids so
7:14you put the wrong bids and just what it
7:15could do wrong strategy what it could do
7:18how did you turn that around what was
7:20like the fix for you guys so the first
7:22things first is we checked for invalid
7:24clicks and one of the first things that
7:28we noticed was that there was an
7:31increase in invalid click ratios from
7:35this and that got us investigating
7:39previous months. And so we were able to
7:41actually file a ticket with Google
7:43support and get them to not
7:47only honor those credits but to issue an
7:50actual refund. This was several years
7:51ago and they still would do that. But
7:54the other thing that was really useful
7:56here is that we found that max
7:59conversions for this client because it
8:02was a lawyer client or a legal client
8:04was never going to be a good fit. And
8:06the reason why is that there are certain
8:08things that go into whether someone
8:11qualifies as a case. even if they fill
8:14out the form and it's a it's an
8:16interesting looking form, they have a 20
8:1930 minute conversation with intake,
8:22something could still go wrong. So
8:24maximize conversions is never ever going
8:26to be a good fit. Maximize conversion
8:29value on the other hand is because
8:31you're then able to teach the system,
8:34hey, this person fill out a form, it was
8:36worth X.
8:38then taking firstparty data putting that
8:40in that then is worth the actual value
8:43of the case and it Google Microsoft are
8:46able to actually optimize off of that
8:49real first party data. The other thing
8:51that was very important and this was a
8:54good learning experience for the client
8:56is that when we say don't do large
9:01budget increases at the same time or you
9:04will have a sad time. this was a way for
9:07them to touch the stove and realize it
9:09cuz that one thing I will stick up for
9:11myself. I was like, I don't really think
9:13it's a good idea for us to dramatically
9:15increase the budget and do the bidding,
9:18but the client really wanted to do it.
9:20So, I was like, all right, you're
9:22pushing. We'll test it. And so the fact
9:25that I explained that it could have gone
9:28wrong and that it did go wrong and then
9:31we found ways to fix it really
9:33reestablished trust that I'm going to
9:37stick up for what will serve the client
9:39best. Even if it means disagreeing or
9:41debating the client on the strategy. So
9:43that's another really important takeaway
9:45is that if you suspect that something
9:48could go wrong, it's okay to still test
9:50it. just voice and document why you
9:52think it'll go wrong. Because then you
9:54have data points that say, "Okay, we'll
9:57test this
9:58thing. This is the outcome. This is why
10:01I suspected it it would not go well.
10:04Let's now do this." And then everyone
10:06will be puppies putty in your hand like
10:09super easy. The other thing I'll say
10:11about this is
10:13that smart bidding has improved
10:16dramatically. So this was in the dark
10:18days when smart bidding was still
10:20finding its feet and it was really
10:22traumatic. But I think one of the
10:25reasons why manual bidding is so
10:28important that everyone does at least
10:29one manual bidding campaign in their
10:31life before they fully go into smart
10:33bidding knowing that smart bidding has
10:36really improved is that you need to
10:37understand the auction. You need to
10:39understand why smart bidding is behaving
10:42the way it is and so that you apply
10:45reasonable levers to your bidding.
10:49Amazing. I love that. Yeah, I love all
10:51that whole put give caveats. Give the
10:54caveats. Give the it depends. I think
10:56SEOs like to say that they own that
10:58phrase of it depends. It's very much in
11:00paid search as well. It's a human thing.
11:04Yeah. Yeah. So something will work
11:06depending on XY Z and when clients want
11:10to push back on what your expertise is
11:12sometimes you've just got to give in but
11:14make sure you have that documented.
11:16These are my concerns that I wrote down.
11:19Documenting a lot of things is so
11:21important. Now also what I think is very
11:24important about having issues like this
11:27or making these kind of efforts is also
11:30the how it was approached. What was the
11:33communication style of it? Who found the
11:36problem? So, can you take us through
11:38that journey? Who was the one that first
11:40saw, "Oh my god, this is the issue." Was
11:42it you? Was it someone else that
11:44mentioned it to you? And how did you
11:46communicate that to the client? Funny
11:48story, it was me. I found it
11:52and I panicked so hard I just paused the
11:58campaign, which is something I normally
12:00would never do. like I know better than
12:01to pause campaigns cuz then you risk
12:04them not coming back as strong. But I
12:05was like oh my god we just spent all
12:06this money. And I wrote up this whole
12:08big long email of hey I just want to let
12:10you
12:11know this
12:13happened. Let's let me know when you're
12:16available to hop on a call and we can
12:17talk about it. But I just want to let
12:19you know this happened. I'm so sorry
12:21that it happened. I did not in the email
12:25say I told you so with the budget
12:27because that's the worst way to start
12:30off anything. It was just I I was like I
12:33really would like to explain like why
12:35this happened or why I suspect this
12:37happened and what we're going to do to
12:39try to course correct or help you make
12:41you whole. M. And so when we got on the
12:44call, I was ready to get eviscerated.
12:49Like I was because the client in
12:51particular was it was a little bit of a
12:54little bit of a hard ass. like he was an
12:56aggressive person, but he actually said,
13:02you know, this is not that much money
13:04for
13:05me, but I'm more
13:10appreciative that
13:12you have the reasons
13:15why. Like, I would have been a lot more
13:19angry and frustrated if you couldn't
13:21explain why what happened. But the fact
13:24that you can explain
13:26it, all right, fine, whatever.
13:31Now, not every client is going to be
13:33able to shrug off 50 grand. Like I I'll
13:36just say I have other clients where if
13:3750 grand was spent, like that's
13:39someone's entire salary. So it but it's
13:45worth noting like the client in question
13:48like they had several thousand a day
13:50budgets. So, they were they had bought
13:52into spending those sorts of budgets.
13:54Yeah. The other thing that was worth
13:56noting is that the client had an
13:58in-house team and the in-house
14:01team
14:03really developed a partnership with me
14:07and the fact that I was always going to
14:09bat for them meant that they in turn
14:13were going to bat for me. So that's the
14:14other kind of lesson in this is that
14:16wherever possible build those bridges,
14:19build those connections with your
14:21clients in-house teams because
14:23ultimately they're going to be your
14:24champions. The CEO is not always going
14:26to be able to be present or to care or
14:29to do whatever. But if you can make
14:31friends with the people who work with
14:33them day in day out and that you're they
14:36know you're in their corner, it's a lot
14:38easier to get past the fups. If
14:41you don't have that person in your
14:44corner, then you become the scapegoat.
14:47They can blame all of their problems on
14:49you and you then have two hills to
14:53climb. You have your actual work and
14:56then overcoming the perception that
14:58you're the problem in their team. Yeah,
15:01as you were just talking there, I was
15:03just thinking I'm going to be spoiled
15:04for choice to just get one clip or two
15:07as we're promoting this episode because
15:10everything you've just said there. I'm
15:13just so passionately in agreement about
15:17and I always say this in the past,
15:18mistakes happen. The important thing is
15:22how you approach it, how you come to the
15:25client with it. I'm always telling like
15:26when I used to manage BS, I used to be
15:28like make sure you're the one that
15:30brings it up. When you see the mistake,
15:32don't hide it. Don't be like all of a
15:34sudden be hard to communicate or hard to
15:37get a hold of. Make sure you you come
15:40ahead. You've researched what the
15:41problem was. You explain what happened.
15:43You tell them the steps that you're
15:45going to put in place to ensure this
15:47doesn't happen in the future. And you
15:48just it becomes part of the learning for
15:51future things. I just Yeah, I love that.
15:53And this is really what this whole I
15:55wanted to really communicate with people
15:56but with this podcast about fops
15:59happened with the best of us in this
16:01industry but it's how we've approached
16:03it that has still made us still a
16:06success regardless. It's worth noting
16:09that earlier in my career when these
16:12sorts of things would happen and to be
16:14fair to myself, they don't happen often.
16:15Like I'm usually don't put allow myself
16:18to be put in the situation
16:19where that bad of an F up would happen.
16:23But in this case, it was it was what it
16:26was what it was. But when those things
16:28would happen, and they do happen, I used
16:30to want to give away free service and
16:34let me make you whole. let me do all
16:36these things. And one of the things I
16:39realized when
16:41I got older and began to really value
16:45myself more and not feel like I was
16:49trapped in this I have to constantly
16:51prove that I'm worthy mode. It was less
16:54about let me make you whole through
16:55giving away free service. It was I am
16:58still here willing to work with you in
17:01the trenches. And if the person asks for
17:04something, happy to work with them, but
17:07I'm I no longer am the one
17:09volunteering free service or free work
17:13to make up for an F up. And that took a
17:16long time to get
17:18comfortable with that mechanic. Cuz even
17:21as a person, I like doing nice things
17:22for people. like I have to fight the
17:24urge to like give away everything. But
17:27when it comes to service, people tend to
17:31value people that value themselves. One
17:34f up I would encourage everyone to avoid
17:37is to devalue your service by throwing
17:41free service at people to make up for an
17:42F up. It's far better to back yourself,
17:45have the reasons why it happened and
17:48work through it together than let me
17:51throw service that you may no longer
17:53even value at you to make up for the
17:55thing. Absolutely. Totally agree. And uh
17:59looking back, what would you say are
18:01like signs that you may have missed? Is
18:03there anything that you felt like if you
18:06had done XY Z just after you'd
18:09implemented the stuff kind of thing you
18:12would have been able to prevent
18:14the increase in spend. Yeah. So there's
18:18the soft skills answer and then there's
18:21the technical answer. So soft skills
18:22answer is had I have listened to my gut
18:25and my intuition and backed my brain and
18:28my knowledge this would not have
18:30happened. I would have pushed harder to
18:33do what I knew was right, but I was
18:36like, "Ah, all right, we'll let the
18:38client have their way or we'll we'll
18:41test this thing." Sure. And had I had
18:44listened to my
18:46gut, it probably wouldn't have happened.
18:48The technical hard skills piece is there
18:51are not enough people that leverage the
18:55floors and the ceilings in portfolio
18:57bidding, which are for those of you that
18:59don't know, you can actually set a
19:01portfolio bidding strategy per campaign.
19:04So, you can have a minimum bid and a
19:06maximum bid when you're using maximized
19:08conversions with a target CPA or a
19:10maximized conversion value with a target
19:12rorowass. And had that have been in
19:14place, we probably would not have had as
19:17big of an issue because the way Google
19:20works, Google can up to double your
19:22budget to average out across that 30.4
19:25days. So on the in the pursuit of
19:28maximize
19:29conversions, it was bringing in some
19:32crazy bids and forcing the budget to go
19:35way above what it was supposed to.
19:38Now, in this case, and this is why we're
19:40able to get the credit, the budget
19:42exceeded the double. It was like
19:44quadruple the daily spend. And I'm like,
19:47this is broken. This is a problem. Now,
19:51I can shamelessly plug Optimizer that
19:54there are there that there are tools for
19:56budget pacing and that that would help
19:57you with this. But there are some free
19:59things that you can do as well. There's
20:01a lot of rules and scripts that you can
20:03add within Google ads. If you wanted to
20:06take a look at chatpt, if you want to
20:09take a look at things like claude or
20:13even perplexity to help you come up with
20:16some rules. One thing I actually really
20:18love cuz I'm not a coder is cursor. And
20:21then I know v0ero is another offering
20:24where you're actually able to build
20:26tools through AI to help you with some
20:29of these tasks. So the biggest bit of
20:32advice I can offer folks is to come up
20:34with your if this then that rules of
20:37engagement of what should happen for
20:40each sort of scenario and each sort of
20:42campaign and then from that you can put
20:44that into whatever tool.
20:46Amazing. That sounds great. And now is
20:49there a process or mindset? Now I I feel
20:52you've probably even mentioned a bit of
20:54that already that helps you recover a
20:58lot quicker if you were to make such
21:00mistakes kind of thing. I called it here
21:02in my dog fail better. Is there like a
21:04process of mind that helps you like fail
21:06better?
21:09So, I'm trying to think about how to put
21:12this. The I don't look at failure as
21:17failure unless nothing was learned.
21:20Yeah. So yeah, if you're spending a
21:23whole bunch of budget, but you get a
21:26whole bunch of search terms out of it
21:27that you can then build out organic
21:30content or you can adjust your creative
21:33or you can change out your keyword
21:35concepts that you know that you're
21:37bidding on a more
21:38cost-effective keyword variant. That's
21:41not failing. That's data harvesting. If
21:43your landing page is just not sending
21:47the forms to your customer base, that's
21:51not the ad account's fault. That's you
21:54learning that you have to introduce a
21:56new QA or quality assurance process to
21:59your landing pages so that you actually
22:01confirm before you start the campaign
22:02that the form fills work or that your
22:04phone rings. One actually crazy thing to
22:08look for when you're looking at call
22:11tracking. A lot of call tracking
22:13solutions, depending on the VOIP you're
22:15using or the voice system that you're
22:17using, will actually have a ring before
22:21it hits the actual number. So, you want
22:25to be mindful if you're going to do a
22:27call recording service. Do you actually
22:30send people to a constant ringing phone
22:33which people will hang up after two or
22:34three rings or do you have it ring once
22:36or twice and then it automatically goes
22:38to a statement that can be interrupted
22:41by the person picking up the phone? I
22:43definitely recommend people testing
22:45their conversion workflows
22:48because again at the end of the day it's
22:51and I realize that this is a question
22:52about failing better.
22:55I prefer to avoid failing by testing for
22:58everything ahead of time. And if you
23:01still fail, then you found something new
23:04to test for before you begin for the
23:07next client. No, I think that perfectly
23:10answers the question because I was
23:11asking about what mindset and that the
23:13mindset you you shared is test as much,
23:16prepare, test as much as possible and
23:18then if there's a failing. Yeah, that's
23:20a great mindset. So, we've come to we're
23:23nearing the end of this really great
23:25chat and I feel that we could do a
23:26double the time that I set for this
23:28because you've just given some amazing
23:30answers. You've already answered
23:32questions that I've had that I've not
23:33even asked yet. It's been great. Thank
23:35you so much, Nva. But if you were to
23:37leave people with one thing and you
23:39might have actually even said this right
23:40at the beginning with one piece of
23:42advice at the end of this all to
23:45remember if they take nothing else away
23:47and if they take but if they take one
23:48you want them to take one thing from all
23:50everything that you've said what do you
23:52want people to take away give yourself
23:54grace and I and those of you who have
23:57heard me talk you've probably heard me
23:58say give yourself grace a
24:00lot chaos timeline right now everything
24:04is crazy between AI
24:08completely disrupting our workflows,
24:10between privacy being there or not being
24:13there, between just
24:16different economic conditions, that's
24:20how I'll put it. Like there there are
24:22some crazy things going on. So never
24:25mind the fact that people are learning
24:28account structures, people are learning
24:29new platforms, like there's new tools
24:31coming out all the time. There's also a
24:33lot going on. So give yourself grace and
24:36build in testing budget when you're
24:40setting out your budget. So for example,
24:42when I am starting with a new client, I
24:44typically will have an agreed upon
24:4720% additional ad spend that is there
24:51for wild and crazy testing time that's
24:53there for the ramp up period. And then
24:56once you've been going with someone for
24:58a bit, yeah, bring it back down to
25:00efficiency or scale depending on their
25:02goals. But make sure that you build in
25:05grace for yourself, grace for your
25:07accounts, grace for your team. Like
25:10ultimately, that's the biggest thing we
25:11can give to ourselves. Because when
25:12we're kind to ourselves, we're able to
25:14be kind and compassionate and clever
25:16with other people. When we're constantly
25:18beating ourselves up and telling
25:20ourselves that we're small or that we're
25:22worthless, we end up putting out
25:24worthless work because we're not backing
25:25it. We're not confident. We're not
25:27leaning into those opportunities.
25:29Amazing. Recently, I saw this lovely
25:31Instagram post about a comedian.
25:33Comedians sometimes say some of the most
25:35wise stuff that just hit you for one.
25:37And this guy was like, "Words are like
25:40spells." We think words don't have
25:42power. I don't know. You might have seen
25:44the clip that I'm talking about. Words
25:46are like spells. Like, you got to be
25:49careful what you say out to somebody.
25:52You tell someone, "Hey, you look great."
25:54Even if they might not ever even thought
25:56it, all of a sudden they feel great and
25:58they're like, "Whoa, okay." They're all
26:00out. Go. Yeah, I was going to say
26:02thoughts become words. Words become
26:03actions. My My husband shares that with
26:06me all the time and he'll actually yell
26:07at me when I'm being super down on
26:09myself. So, I fully agree with you on
26:10it.
26:11That's This is not a PBC thing. This is
26:13just a thing. Life thing. Absolutely.
26:15Put kindness out. Put good out. Amazing.
26:18And it'll come back to you again. That
26:20one you brought it out. It'll come back
26:21to you. We mentioned AI and before this
26:24I was like we got to talk a little bit
26:26about how AI a little bit a little bit
26:29AI could be tripping us up how we use it
26:32our fear of using it with optimizer you
26:34guys must see loads of campaigns and
26:36loads of people trying to use automation
26:38and maybe not approaching it well what
26:40are what's like the most common like f
26:43up that kind of thing with clients
26:45approaching AI one of the reasons why
26:49we've invested so much into AI
26:51functionality there's a a whole bunch of
26:52new tools. We can have a blog post link
26:55to to go with the resource. I'm not
26:57going to spend more time plugging
26:58optimizer, but one of the most
27:01common mistakes people can make with AI
27:05is delegating their own
27:08strategic strength to the AI. AI is
27:11really good at solving for grunt work,
27:14helping you compile reports, helping you
27:17edit a video, helping you keep creative
27:21in a good spot. AI is not going to be
27:25good at explaining why a client should
27:30do X or Y. They will or actually selling
27:35them on it. going to be a mistake in
27:39almost every
27:40situation to delegate out that strategic
27:44strength. And the reason why is because
27:46of hallucinations. So for those of you
27:48that don't know, hallucinations are
27:50where AI gets says something really
27:53smart or it seems so great, but then
27:56it's not true, it's not actually
27:58possible. There's a whole series of
28:00things. Oh, and I think that the people
28:03who fully delegate their strategic
28:06strength to AI, whether that's making
28:09blog posts that are just a copy and
28:10paste from AI, whether that's reports
28:13that are just a copy and paste from AI,
28:15whether that's account structures that
28:17are copy and paste from AI, that is a
28:20mistake. What is not a mistake is to
28:23treat AI like a partner, to have AI come
28:26to you and say, "Hey, listen. these are
28:27some areas you may want to work on
28:29because of these stated goals or this
28:32seems like it's not quite right. Here
28:35are some suggestions you might consider
28:38to fix it. But ultimately, the human
28:40still needs to be in that driver's seat.
28:42And those who delegate fully to AI are
28:47going to be the ones who are redundant.
28:50Those who partner with AI, those are the
28:53ones who are going to lead the next
28:55generation of marketers. Absolutely.
28:58Totally agree with you. I was just
28:59thinking that like I would say AI should
29:01be your junior PA. Like it should be the
29:05person that look I'm going to give you
29:06this. This is what I want to do. This is
29:09the information. Make it format it.
29:12Yeah. Yeah. whenever because I do a lot
29:14of writing or search engine or blogging
29:16for PBC Live and stuff and whenever I've
29:18done oh here's a topic write a blog for
29:22me it's always been nonsense the details
29:24have always been wrong or out a day but
29:26then if I give it like a thousand
29:29characters of information that I know
29:32but I'm like I I want you to sort out
29:34format this format give me the key
29:37takeaways summarize this at the end do
29:40this like that it's a great it's a great
29:42tool for that. So yeah, I made a chat
29:46sheet GPT of my content, not to write
29:51the things for me, but because
29:53sometimes I have writer's block and I
29:56need to talk to a friend to help me get
29:59through the writer's block. And so my
30:01chat GPT, like my GPT buddy of Nava's
30:05wild and crazy ideas, that's just the
30:08name of the GPT. It's like, "All right,
30:10here's some thoughts. Here's some ways
30:12you can take this. Here's what you would
30:14normally find interesting." Yeah. Okay.
30:17Thank you. Yeah. No, that's amazing. And
30:20on that note, we have run out of time.
30:23And now, thank you so much for being on
30:26this chat with us today. Actually,
30:27although before you go, give us a quick,
30:31if your career were a movie, what would
30:32be the title?
30:34A movie, what would be the title? to
30:36honorable profit and glorious victory.
30:39Oh wow. Okay, that's so the story behind
30:42that, I know you said quick. During the
30:45pandemic, I ran a guild of 150
30:49Mandalorian on the Star Wars Nights of
30:51the Old Republic MMO. And one of the
30:54ways I would greet new members and like
30:57we would have our communications is to
31:00profit in victory. Yeah. But as things
31:03were going on and like the I'm deeply
31:06rooted in
31:08ethics, it shifted to honorable profit
31:11and glorious victory because it's really
31:14important that you make money doing well
31:18by doing good. That you don't sell
31:21yourself to to make profit, but that
31:24you're always chasing opportunities for
31:26growth. And because victory is not just
31:29about winning like I'm going to fight
31:31you. Victory is also how do I unlock
31:34that within myself that growth. And so
31:37the kind of glorious victory of seeking
31:39challenges that are worthy of us that
31:41unlock that growth within us is
31:43exciting. So
31:45amazing. It's and true to form. It's a
31:48noism. So amazing. I love that. What
31:52about you? What would your movie be?
31:54I've not thought about that yet.
31:57I'm sorry. Let me come back to you on
31:58that one. Can I say what I think it
32:01would be? Because I've known you and
32:04loved you and watched you go
32:06from like struggle to like glory. Back
32:10yourself. A the new film is back
32:14yourself. I love that. I love that. And
32:16that does make sense. That does make
32:18sense. It's taking me a while to get
32:20there. But yeah, I appreciate that. I
32:22appreciate that so much, Na. And before
32:25we leave, where can people find you
32:27online?
32:29Uh, I am on LinkedIn. That is my busiest
32:32and most active social channel. I'm also
32:34on Blue Sky. You can, of course, get a
32:37hold of us over at Optimizer. I'm one of
32:39the Ask the PPCs for SCJ and I'm a
32:43quarterly columnist for SEL. You can get
32:46a hold of me in the Women in Tech SEO
32:48Slack group. I'm also on the board of
32:50the paid search
32:51association and I also just bumble about
32:55at different industry events. So just
32:56come say hi. I'll happily talk about
32:58PPC, about metal, about gaming, really
33:03silly poetry, like whatever. Amazing. So
33:08thank you so much now there for that
33:10amazing conversation. And yeah, remember
33:12words are powerful whether it's you
33:15saying it to yourselves or you saying it
33:17to others. It's a spell. and it can
33:19really change how you perceive yourself
33:21or how people perceive themselves. So,
33:24let's give each other grace and be kind
33:26to one another, shall we? So, yeah, next
33:28about PPC live, we've got our next event
33:31happening on June the 26th and that's
33:33happening in Leeds. So, if anyone would
33:35like to join us, anyone that's out
33:36there, we'd love as many of you to join
33:39us. So, those who are listening to us
33:40from the north, please join us there on
33:43June the 26th, just go to
33:45ppc.live for your tickets for that. I'm
33:47also going to be giving out some
33:49coaching hours. I've decided to allow
33:52some of my hours in the week to be
33:54booked for some coaching time and that's
33:56booked in 1 hour blocks. So, if you want
33:58to reignite your passion for paid search
34:00and your confidence that you are doing
34:03the right thing or you are on the right
34:04path, yeah, let's chat about it. Give me
34:07as much information as you can
34:08beforehand so that I'm well prepared to
34:11help you in the area that you want to
34:12improve in. So yeah, go to the
34:16marketinganu.com to book that hourly
34:18slot. So yeah, all the other stuff that
34:21you'll hear me talk about or writing
34:23about is going to be on search
34:25engine.com. So please do check that out.
34:27And that's it for now. Thank you very
34:29much. And I hope you will join us next
34:32week where we'll be speaking to another
34:33amazing PPC expert talking about an F up
34:37that they have experienced. Bye.
34:40[Music]

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