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Elizabeth Smart Recounts Her Kidnapping (9 months as a plural wife) — Transcript

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0:00He honestly did not look creepy. He did
0:02not look scary. He just looked like
0:04someone who was down on his luck. And
0:06when he approached my mom, he didn't
0:09even ask for money. He just asked for
0:11work. He asked if she had any kind of
0:13work he could do. That was it. That was
0:15all the interaction that she had. And I
0:17just happened to be standing there next
0:18to her. When he saw me, that was when he
0:20decided that I was going to be the one
0:22he was going to kidnap. If you look
0:25deeper than just like the overall story
0:27arc of what happened to me, like
0:28kidnapped out of my bedroom at knife
0:30point, held captive for 9 months, abuse,
0:33eventually rescued, and you get more
0:35into the nitty-gritty kind of like we
0:37are right now. I feel like it's a call
0:40it a cautionary tell, but it's a perfect
0:42example of how dangerous religion can
0:46be. Maybe one of the worst evils a
0:49person can commit is taking something
0:51that is supposed to bring joy and
0:53comfort and peace and twisting it into
0:55something dark to serve a person's own
0:58ends. We're all born with value that no
1:01one else can take away no matter what's
1:03happened to us.
1:05>> Mine is the only voice.
1:06>> What have I been doing? [music]
1:08>> Lay down my autonomy.
1:11>> After that, it got very dark very
1:13quickly.
1:20Hey guys, my name is Shaliss Ansola and
1:22this is Cults to Consciousness where we
1:23discuss leaving high demand religions or
1:25organizations and finding healing and
1:27independence through awareness and true
1:29individual sovereignty. If you're only
1:31tuning in on those podcast platforms and
1:33you'd prefer to see our faces, go to
1:34YouTube instead at cults to
1:36consciousness. It means the world to us
1:38when you can interact with the post. It
1:39really is the best way to support the
1:41show and our guests who are bravely
1:42coming on sharing their stories. They
1:44are real people and it means so much
1:46when you can leave those words of
1:48encouragement down below in the comments
1:50for them. Today's guest, you probably
1:53already know who she is. Her case was
1:55one of the most notorious kidnapping
1:57cases in all of American history in
1:592002, abducted from her home when she
2:01was 14 years old in Salt Lake City,
2:04found 9 months later. And today we are
2:06going to get into the details of what
2:09happened to her, why her abductors did
2:11what they did, trying to secure her as a
2:13plural wife, including trying to get six
2:16other young girls to be a part of this
2:18religion that he created himself. How
2:20she was able to be found and how she is
2:22doing today being an advocate, a
2:25survivor, writing books. I just read her
2:27latest book, Detours. It was fantastic.
2:29And you may have also seen the recently
2:31released documentary called Kidnapped.
2:34So, thank you so much for being here
2:36today, Elizabeth Smart.
2:37>> Thank you for having me.
2:38>> Yes, absolutely. I was thrilled to get
2:41you on. I grew up in Utah Mormon myself.
2:45I very, very clearly, distinctly
2:48remember your story. We're only two
2:49years apart in age, so it definitely had
2:52an impact on me. I remember seeing the
2:53billboards all throughout the state. And
2:56of course, when you were found, it was
2:58like this huge sigh of relief from the
3:00entire country, I think. And so I'm
3:03really looking forward to getting your
3:05perspective. I've I know you've done a
3:06million interviews now. You've been a
3:08public speaker for years and and we have
3:10this documentary and you have multiple
3:12books, but I'm looking forward to
3:14getting into more of the emotional side,
3:16the nitty-gritty, and also how you've
3:18been able to come out on top and really
3:21really inspire those who have been
3:23through difficult things as well. Well,
3:25you mentioned in your book that you
3:26wanted to talk about this just to give
3:29people a voice and kind of be that face
3:32because when you came out of it, you
3:33didn't know that anyone else had been
3:35through anything similar and you felt
3:37very alone. So, I really appreciate you
3:38coming on and being willing to open up
3:40with us today.
3:41>> Of course. Yeah. So, let's get into your
3:44childhood just before everything
3:47happened. uh your home life, maybe a
3:50little bit about your your hobbies and
3:53things that you loved before everything
3:56took place. So, I feel like I had a very
3:59happy childhood. I feel like I had a
4:02very love I came from a loving home. I
4:04came from a loving family. I couldn't
4:06imagine that there were people in the
4:10world who had children and didn't take
4:12care of them and didn't love them. That
4:14idea was just so far removed from my
4:18experience as a child growing up. Um, I
4:21feel like we were a very close-knit
4:24family. We did lots of things together.
4:26Um, we loved I mean going up into the
4:29mountains and going skiing or going
4:31snowmobiling together or um going and
4:34spending time at uh my grandparents
4:37ranch and going horseback riding. I
4:39mean, I feel like we did we did a lot of
4:42things together. We had a lot of fun as
4:44a family, but we also I felt like every
4:46Saturday during the summer, I mean, it
4:48was very common for us all to be outside
4:51pulling weeds together or cleaning out
4:54the garage. Um, feel like we worked
4:57together and we played together.
5:00>> Yeah.
5:00>> In the best sense of that word.
5:02[laughter]
5:03>> Yeah. And am I remembering correctly?
5:05You have five Well, you don't have five
5:07five siblings. You have four siblings.
5:09You're one of five. No, I have five
5:11siblings. I'm I am number two of six.
5:14>> Oh, you do have five siblings. Okay. Two
5:16of six. Yeah. So, that's a full loving
5:20family, it seems. And the documentary, I
5:22think, portrayed that very well and
5:25especially your close relationship with
5:26your sister. So, can you talk about how
5:30you two were together? Is she right
5:32under you or right above you?
5:34>> So, we are She's No, there's actually a
5:37brother in between us. So she's about 5
5:40years younger than I am. But because
5:42there were we were the only two. I mean
5:44we always ended up sharing a room like
5:46if we ever if my parents were like okay
5:50everyone needs to like hold someone
5:52else's hand. It was always you know me
5:54holding her hand or like if we were ever
5:57assigned I don't know like a a larger
6:01chore that we needed to do it with
6:02someone. I mean it was always her and I
6:04doing it together. But yeah, we just I
6:06would say we we grew up very very close
6:09and I would say that I was a very young
6:1214year-old. Like I was still I guess 14
6:15may have been pushing it a little bit
6:17but at the same time like I still liked
6:19playing with her even though there was
6:21that age difference even as a
6:2214year-old. Um, I remember I mean even
6:26for instance on the night that I was
6:27kidnapped, I had been reading the book
6:29Ella Enchanted and she had wanted me to
6:32read out loud to her and so I'd been
6:34reading it out loud way past when my
6:36parents told us to go to bed. So we were
6:39we were definitely very close. I
6:41remember my mom used to dress us up in
6:44matching dresses like when we'd go to
6:48church or like have I don't know fancy
6:51I don't know parties to go to. I
6:53actually hated that. But my sister said
6:55she used to love that even though I
6:57hated it. [laughter]
6:59>> So you weren't really into the whimsical
7:01princessy thing.
7:02>> Oh, well I love the whimsical princessy
7:05thing. I just didn't like wearing
7:06matching dresses with her. [laughter]
7:08>> I didn't like having the same thing cuz
7:10I was like I'm not I'm not eight. I'm
7:12not six. Whatever the age difference
7:14was. I was like I'm I'm 5 years older
7:17than her. I'm not you know.
7:19>> Yeah, that makes sense. Once you hit the
7:2112, 13 age, it's kind of like, all
7:24right, all let's get away from I'm an
7:26adult mom.
7:27>> Yes. I do not need the matching puff
7:29sleeve like princess princess cupcake
7:33skirt on the bottom.
7:34>> Yeah,
7:35>> I don't need that anymore.
7:36>> It seems like from the documentary too
7:38that it was a very quintessential LDS
7:41family. Um, we use LDS instead of Church
7:44of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. a
7:45little quicker to say, but Elia's family
7:48who is very loving and um faithful.
7:51Would you say that you had a pretty
7:53strong testimony when you were a child,
7:54was that a big part of your life? I
7:57mean, I was born into it, so that was
8:00that was all I knew. I mean, we went to
8:01church every every Sunday growing up. I
8:05mean, I feel like we even went to church
8:06when we were on vacation. So, I came
8:10from a very devout upbringing, very
8:12devout family.
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9:24set you. Thanks, guys. Back to our
9:26guest. We used to do that, too, when we
9:28went on vacation. I'd be like, "Mom,
9:30why?" [laughter]
9:32Even though I was very devout growing
9:34up, I was probably the most devout of my
9:37siblings and of maybe even the family,
9:39but still I was like, "We're at
9:41Disneyland. Why do we have to go find a
9:43church?"
9:44>> Yes, [laughter]
9:44I think I'm familiar with that feeling.
9:47>> So, let's talk about the brief encounter
9:49that your mom had with who would end up
9:52becoming your captor and how that
9:54essentially in some ways invited him
9:56into your home or exposed him to you.
10:00So, um, it was it was the beginning of
10:04my 8th grade year of of school and it
10:08was fall. I want to say it was like
10:10September, maybe October.
10:13And uh we went down into downtown Salt
10:16Lake and we were in the we were at the
10:19mall and we were crossing the street
10:22from one store to go to the the other
10:24store across the street and before we'd
10:27even walked out the door, my older
10:28brother came up to my mom and he's like,
10:30"Hey, mom, there's a guy there's a man
10:31outside asking, you know, for help,
10:34asking for money. I think we should give
10:35him some money." So we walked outside
10:37and sure enough, there was this man
10:39there and he was cleancut. Like his
10:42clothes looked clean. They looked worn,
10:44but they looked like they had been cared
10:45for. He honestly did not look creepy. He
10:49did not look scary. Like he just looked
10:52like someone who was down on his luck.
10:55And when he approached my mom, he didn't
10:58even ask for money. He just asked for
11:00work. He asked if she had any kind of
11:02work he could do. And my mom, she
11:05doesn't just give out our phone number.
11:07She doesn't just invite people over, but
11:08she said, "You can call my husband. you
11:11can ask my husband if he has any work
11:13that you can do. And so, um, she gave
11:16him my dad's phone number. And that was
11:19it. That was all the interaction that
11:21she had. And I just happened to be
11:22standing there next to her. That was
11:25when he saw me. That was it. That was
11:28when he decided that um I was going to
11:30be the one he was going to kidnap. So,
11:32he did call my dad um to ask for work
11:36because he wanted to find out where we
11:37lived. He came out to our house one time
11:40to do some yard work. And I mean, I
11:43didn't have any interaction with him.
11:45Again, my mom didn't know him. My mom
11:47didn't have interaction with him. She
11:49actually was like, "Just stay inside."
11:51Well, he's outside doing yard work. You
11:52just stay inside. Don't go outside. Um
11:56and and we did. And then
12:00he he left. And I never saw him again
12:03until the night that I was kidnapped
12:05about 9 months later. Oh my gosh. So, I
12:09had read somewhere that he didn't even
12:11come back to get paid. Was that true? I
12:14There was something kind of I don't
12:16remember the exact details around it. I
12:21think I want to say he did get paid. I
12:25might just be like going off into crazy
12:27land, but I want to say I want to say it
12:30was either my dad didn't have exact
12:34change, so maybe he paid him partially
12:36or maybe he overpaid him and he was
12:38supposed to come back for another day of
12:40work or it was something like that.
12:42There the numbers weren't quite like
12:45right on because he wanted to be paid in
12:48cash, but yeah, there was there was
12:50something
12:51off there.
12:52>> Yeah. Can you describe the night that he
12:55abducted you? And as we go into this
12:57story through your abduction, please
12:59only give as many details as you're
13:01comfortable with. I know you've been
13:02talking about this for years now, but I
13:04understand it's still difficult to
13:05recount certain things. So, and whatever
13:07detail you want to give the night that
13:09he came and took you.
13:10>> I think when people think of abductions
13:13taking place, especially in in your own
13:16home, um like there should be some sense
13:21of forboding or some premonition of evil
13:24to come. There should be something
13:26there. But that wasn't my experience at
13:28all. It was a good day. It really was a
13:30day kind of like any other. I mean the
13:33most I guess the interesting things
13:36about it were really that my grandfather
13:39he had passed away just very recently.
13:43The funeral had been just like the day
13:45before a couple days before.
13:47>> Oh wow.
13:47>> And um coming from you know a family
13:50with six kids there's always just a lot
13:53going on there. You know, someone has a
13:55practice. Someone has like a a playd
13:58date or a hangout as my son now refers
14:01to them. They are not playdates anymore.
14:04It's hanging out.
14:05>> Yeah.
14:06>> Um, you know, there's just always
14:08something going on. And so, it was a
14:10little bit of a chaotic day, but I
14:12remember my mom just being like, "No,
14:13like, you know, I just lost my dad.
14:15Like, I know I've been gone a lot
14:16lately. Like, it's important for us all
14:18to sit down together and have dinner
14:20together. like let's get everything kind
14:22of back on track. The end of the school
14:24year is just like right there. Like
14:26let's just like get back on track and
14:28head into summer like and be ready for
14:31it. And so I mean it was a good day. It
14:34was a busy day. I do remember her making
14:37dinner. I remember her having us all
14:39come together. She had actually burnt um
14:42potatoes that evening, but she's she's a
14:45very good cook. That was not the norm.
14:46[laughter]
14:48But you know, again, there's a lot of
14:49chaos. There were six of us, so there
14:51was a lot going on. And, you know,
14:53someone obviously required more of her
14:55attention than the potatoes did on the
14:57stove.
14:58>> Uh, and so they did end up burning. And
15:00she had cranked open the window just to
15:02let you know, air into the room to try
15:04to air the burn smell out. I remember
15:07going to dinner. I remember all the
15:09other things that happened that evening.
15:10I remember I remember uh
15:15like having our family prayer together.
15:17I remember kind of going around with my
15:19dad afterwards like locking up the
15:21doors, closing the windows and that
15:24window was just left slightly cracked
15:27open just to continue let the air come
15:30in. But again, like nothing bad happened
15:33in our neighborhood. We thought we lived
15:35in a nice neighborhood. We thought we
15:36lived in a safe neighborhood. I mean, I
15:38grew up playing, you know, kick the can
15:41and and follow the leader and and hide
15:44and go seek and sardines in the summer
15:46at night time. So, like the thought that
15:49someone might break into our home just
15:51did not
15:53cross our minds. But the doors were
15:55locked and the windows really were were
15:57shut except maybe that one. Just the
16:00barest little hint. And I remember going
16:03to bed and like I said, I shared a room
16:06with my little sister. I remember
16:08reading to her out loud from the book
16:10Ella Enchanted. I remember her kept she
16:12kept on saying, "One more chapter. One
16:14more chapter." And when I finally
16:15finished reading the last chapter of
16:17that evening, I remember looking over
16:18and she was asleep. And I was like, "Oh,
16:20well that's great. Now tomorrow night
16:22when we come back, she's going to be
16:23like, "I don't remember that. You need
16:25to read it again." Exactly.
16:27>> [laughter]
16:28>> Um, and so I remember just putting the
16:30book down and it was pretty late. I
16:32think it was it was I think it was about
16:34midnight when I stopped. 11:30 midnight.
16:37It was pretty late for me for a
16:3914year-old. And well, honestly, that's
16:42still pretty late for me now as an
16:43adult.
16:44>> Yes.
16:46>> It's real late for me. Um, but yeah, I
16:50remember just lying down and I remember
16:52going to sleep and the next thing I
16:55remember was hearing a man's voice and
16:58at first like it I did hear the words
17:02but
17:04it didn't seem real.
17:06>> Yeah.
17:06>> Like my bedroom was at the top of our
17:09house. It wasn't ground level. All of
17:12the windows were high up off the ground.
17:14Nothing bad had ever happened in my
17:16bedroom before. I'd always felt safe in
17:19my bedroom. I'd always felt safe at
17:21home. And so when I first heard this
17:24man's voice saying, "I have a knife at
17:27your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up
17:28and come with me." It like I just
17:30couldn't believe it was real. Uh so I
17:33didn't immediately respond. And then he
17:34said the same words again. And I
17:38remember I could feel something cold,
17:41sharp lined across my neck. I could feel
17:43someone's hand on my arm trying to pull
17:44me out of bed. And I remember opening my
17:46eyes and sure enough there is this man
17:48standing over me, has a knife at my
17:50neck. And shock really doesn't do it the
17:56situation justice.
17:58Um, fear I don't feel like really
18:00encapsulates everything that I was fe
18:02feeling in that moment. But shock and
18:05fear, I suppose, are the closest words I
18:07can think of to describing what it was
18:09like because again, nothing like this
18:11had ever happened to me before. Nothing
18:13bad had ever happened to me before. I
18:15mean, I feel like I very much lived in
18:17sort of that
18:18>> whitewashed picket fence kind of world.
18:21Um, and people breaking into other
18:24people's homes and trying to kidnap them
18:27at knife point. That just that didn't
18:30happen in my world.
18:31>> Yeah. So, um, I remember
18:35feeling like I didn't have a choice,
18:38feeling like I just had to get up and do
18:40exactly as I was told because I didn't
18:42want him to try to take my sister
18:44instead. I felt like since I was the
18:46older sister, it was my responsibility
18:49to protect my little sister. So, I got
18:52up and I went with him and I did I did
18:55what he said. I remember he was very
18:56specific about what shoes he wanted me
18:58to to take when I reached for like my
19:01pair of slippers. I mean, he was he's
19:03very specific. He pointed at my my
19:05running shoes. I remember taking them
19:07and I remember him leading me out
19:09through the back of my house and up into
19:11the mountains behind my home. And that
19:13was Yeah, that was the beginning of my
19:15captivity.
19:16>> Oh my gosh. Did you glance over at your
19:18sister to see if she had woken up?
19:20>> Um I
19:22I didn't think she had woken up. I
19:24thought she was still asleep. I remember
19:26I could hear her breathing, but I
19:28thought she was still asleep.
19:30>> So, sure, her back was turned to you
19:33because she was awake cuz she identified
19:35his voice.
19:36>> I think she was facing No, I think she
19:39was facing towards us.
19:42>> Okay.
19:43>> Um, but I mean, you know, like when you
19:45squint, your eyes are closed or you can
19:47kind of look through your lashes. I
19:49think that's what she was doing. That
19:51must have been an outof body experience
19:53for you, especially because you were
19:55woken up from a dead sleep and you're
19:58just trying to figure out what's going
19:59on. Did you recognize him?
20:02>> I did not recognize him at first. I
20:04didn't recognize him for a while
20:07actually. Um,
20:08>> really?
20:09>> I mean, not until we were I mean off.
20:12So, he took me up through my backyard.
20:15We crossed the last road in our
20:18neighborhood and then like there's a
20:20trail head that goes up into the
20:23mountains behind my home. And there came
20:25a point where we turned off the trail
20:27head and just kept heading straight up
20:29into the mountains. And it wasn't until
20:31we were off of this trail that I finally
20:34was like, you're that guy that my
20:36parents tried to help. And I was like,
20:38why are you taking me? They tried to
20:40help you. Why would you hurt people who
20:41tried to help you? They didn't do
20:43anything wrong. I mean, I remember uh
20:45saying those kinds of comments to him
20:47and he just kind of responded back with
20:50um I know I know they tried to help, but
20:53I'm taking you as my hostage. Um and
20:57that was that was kind of what he
20:58responded with. And then he'd also say
20:59things like uh you know, all your
21:02answers will or all your questions will
21:04be answered in due time. You'll find out
21:07more when we get to where we're going.
21:08Do you remember about It's hard to tell
21:11I'm sure how long you were hiking up
21:13into the mountains.
21:14>> It is really hard to say because I mean
21:17on one hand time seemed to stand still
21:19and I think
21:20>> like I was so pumped full of adrenaline
21:24that it stood still but at the same time
21:27I do remember it um starting to get
21:29lighter and lighter outside. I mean, I
21:32remember as we crossed the top of the
21:34mountain, I mean, it was it was light
21:36and he was in a rush to get me off the
21:38top of the mountain cuz he didn't want
21:39anyone to see like any kind of flash of
21:41red or anything. I remember that. And
21:44also recently, I mean, this past
21:46October, uh, my brother, my
21:49sister-in-law, and myself actually hiked
21:51up to where I was held captive.
21:54>> And it's about it's about 3 and 1/2
21:56miles to get there. And I mean it's it's
21:59very it's incredibly difficult to get
22:02back there. I mean you would not find
22:04it. I could sit and try to describe the
22:06exact path to you all day and you still
22:08wouldn't find it. I mean it's very very
22:11dangerous, difficult terrain to get
22:13over. Very difficult to find. Wow. So
22:18when you did finally make it to the
22:19campsite, his wife at the time, Wanda,
22:23was there. What was going through your
22:25mind when you saw another woman? Did you
22:26have any sort of relief of, "Oh, good.
22:29Maybe I'm a little safer now that
22:31there's a woman there." What's going
22:32through your head?
22:33>> That's exactly what I thought. I
22:35remember feeling a sense of relief
22:37because there was a woman there. And I
22:38thought, "Well, nothing that terrible
22:41can happen to me then if there's a woman
22:43here." Like, I genuinely uh believed
22:46that. And I um I think my brain just
22:51automatically started jumping to
22:56the safest conclusions that I could come
22:58up with or the safest reasons
23:01um why someone would try to kidnap me
23:03like maybe they lost a daughter and they
23:05were just griefstricken and that's why
23:07they kidnapped me. Um those were the
23:09kinds of places that my brain tried to
23:12go. um that is not what happened. But in
23:16that moment when I saw a woman, those
23:18were kind of the thoughts that went
23:19through my head. Surely if there's a
23:20woman here, nothing that terrible can
23:22happen to me.
23:23>> Mhm. And how soon after you got there
23:26did he explain why he took you?
23:28>> So once we got there, she led me inside
23:31the tent. She's tried to sponge bathe
23:33me. She gave me a robe, told me to put
23:35it on. She got up and left. And then he
23:38came back into the tent and he had
23:39changed out of like the sweatpants,
23:41sweatshirt that he had worn to kidnap me
23:43in. And he had on a long robe like the
23:46one the woman had on, like the one I'd
23:47been forced to put on. And that's when
23:49he started speaking. That's when he told
23:51me that I was now his wife. And
23:55uh I mean that's it was pretty
23:59immediate.
24:00Oh my gosh. What is going through your
24:03mind? So you're 14 years old. I can
24:05imagine myself at 14, especially growing
24:08up in the LDS church where there's a lot
24:10of emphasis put on marriage. Once you
24:12hit the young women's age of 12, they
24:15start talking to you about your temple
24:16marriage and eternal salvation and
24:18finding your eternal companion and
24:20saving yourself for marriage and all of
24:22these things to kind of prep you to get
24:24ready to find someone. For me, it was
24:26really exciting. I was like, "Yay, goes
24:28boy crazy like no other." But I can
24:31imagine being in that situation and all
24:33of a sudden you have this old man who
24:36has just taken you from your home and
24:38he's like, "You're my wife now. What's
24:40going through your head?"
24:41>> Shock and horror.
24:43>> Yeah.
24:43>> Uh I remember just thinking like, "I'm
24:4614. I'm not old enough to get married.
24:49I'm supposed to finish junior high. I'm
24:51supposed to go to high school. I'm
24:52supposed to go to college." Like there's
24:55a lot of things that I'm supposed to do
24:57before I get married. And you can't just
25:01kidnap someone and then um tell them
25:05that they're your wife. Like that's not
25:07legal. There's no judge here. There's no
25:10like minister or marriage officient.
25:13Like I never said yes. Clergy. Exactly.
25:16Like I never said yes. I never agreed to
25:18this. I never said I do or
25:20>> I did not consent to this in any way,
25:22shape, or form. This cannot be legal.
25:24>> And I mean, you didn't have a choice.
25:27Obviously, you were stuck there with him
25:29in the wilderness miles away from your
25:31home. And when did he talk about who he
25:35was or who he thought he was? It seemed
25:37he had all these grand illusions of he's
25:40a prophet and God is speaking to him.
25:42And while that's not uncommon language
25:46for Mormonism, having a current day
25:48prophet, I'm sure you're like that no
25:51that you're not the guy cuz we have the
25:53prophet, right? Like you are a little
25:55crazy. But he's telling you all of these
25:58things as if it's what God wants and
26:00using his madeup religion to justify it.
26:02So how was he explaining that to you or
26:05at what length did he explain that to
26:07you? So he didn't explain it to me like
26:11he didn't explain to me right off the
26:13bat right there and then as he's telling
26:15me that I'm his wife. I mean he had kind
26:16of made comments about God's work just
26:19like little tiny things he'd slip in. It
26:21wasn't like, I am, you know, I'm God's
26:25right hand here on earth. I'm his
26:27prophet. I'm his dividic king. He wasn't
26:29full on saying that in those moments
26:32quite yet. Um, but he did like he did
26:36talk about it later that first day. I
26:38mean, after he had married me, after he
26:40had me, after he had chained me up, um,
26:44that's when he did start to tell me more
26:46that it was God who had commanded him to
26:48kidnap me, that he didn't actually want
26:50to kidnap me, but he had to follow God's
26:52commandments just like Abraham was
26:54commanded to sacrifice Isaac, his only
26:57son. And God let him get all the way up,
27:00build the altar, place Isaac on it, and
27:03then and then stopped him at the last
27:04minute. Except God hadn't told him to
27:06stop at the last minute. He had to he
27:08had to prove his worthiness, his
27:10faithfulness, and that's why he
27:11kidnapped me.
27:13>> Oh my gosh. I can't believe he used that
27:16story to justify
27:18>> so many.
27:19>> Really? Did he pull a bunch of stories
27:21like that from the Bible? Did he ever
27:23pull from the Book of Mormon or just
27:24Bible stuff?
27:26>> No, I mean, he acknowledged the Book of
27:27Mormon. He believed in the Book of
27:29Mormon. He had
27:30>> He called them He called them his seven
27:33diamonds plus one. And it was the Old
27:37Testament, the New Testament, the Book
27:40of Mormon, the Doctrine of Covenants,
27:42The Pearl of Great Price,
27:44>> Book of Abraham,
27:45>> Touched by the Light. Yeah, the Book of
27:48Abraham. Oh, no, it's Isaiah by the last
27:54name, I think, Gilead.
27:56And then, oh, I guess Old Testament, New
27:58Testament would have been one one book.
28:00And then the seventh book would have
28:02been I think it's called this the golden
28:047 plus one but it's like a healthy a
28:07dietary book I don't know some book on
28:09healing and health but that so those
28:11were the seven diamonds and then the
28:14plus one was his like personal book of
28:18of re revelation that he wrote of the
28:21commandments God had given him. Um and
28:25yeah like those were those were all the
28:28things that he believed in. So he'd pull
28:29from whatever, however, felt
28:33like it he could twist it enough to get
28:35what he wanted.
28:37>> Wow. How much was his religious practice
28:41inserted into your life while you were
28:43in captivity with him? Did he make you
28:46read some of his writings or was it just
28:48kind of playing in the background?
28:51>> No, I would say it was very much there.
28:53But I would I would add that this wasn't
28:56just something
28:58that he decided one day and the next day
29:00was in it fullblown.
29:02>> Yeah.
29:02>> I think over years he had I mean he had
29:05a long history of of abuse. He had a
29:08long history of um sexual violence,
29:13manipulation. I mean like this wasn't
29:15just like some guy who was a decent
29:18person one day and then the next day
29:20decided to kidnap me. I mean, this was
29:22someone who manipulated people for
29:24years. He exploited people for years.
29:27Like, he twisted everything to his own
29:29advantage. I mean, he was cruel and
29:31manipulative. And honestly, he should
29:34have never It should have never got to
29:35the point where he actually kidnapped
29:37me. He should have There should have
29:38been interventions
29:40years before I ever was in the picture.
29:43But,
29:43>> wow.
29:44>> It didn't happen. Obviously, my
29:46kidnapping did happen. But um he had
29:50found that the best way to manipulate
29:54people was through God.
29:56>> Yeah.
29:57>> Um because and I think also if you step
29:59back and you take a look at that time
30:01period, I mean 9/11 happened 2001. I
30:06don't know about you, but I remember
30:09just it seemed like everyone was
30:12extremely sensitive around any form of
30:15religion, especially any form of
30:17religion that was perceived to be
30:19extreme.
30:20And it just seemed like it was a hot
30:22topic everywhere.
30:24And I think he recognized that and I
30:27think he was able to
30:30wield that fear, that sensitivity as a
30:33weapon because if anyone ever questioned
30:36him like, "Why are you doing this? Why
30:37are you doing that? Why?" Like he could
30:39just say, "It's part of my religion."
30:40And I would say probably 99 out of 100
30:43times that would shut people down.
30:45They'd just be like, "Oh, okay. Yep.
30:47Don't want anything to do with you." And
30:49and that was it. And they'd leave him
30:52alone.
30:53>> Yeah. Yeah. What were you thinking when
30:56he's talking about all this religious
30:58stuff and also what he made you wear
31:01with 911 going on? Did it because and I
31:04I hope I'm sounding respectful here. It
31:07seemed like what he put you in was very
31:10similar to how they dress certain women
31:12in the more extremist parts of like
31:15Saudi Arabia for example. We've done
31:16interviews with people from there.
31:18Something that looked a little bit more
31:19Muslim and it seemed like that's kind of
31:22the direction he was going. But then
31:23he's also has one hand in the Book of
31:26Mormon and one hand in the Bible. So,
31:28it's kind of like this patchwork of
31:30things. Did that cross your mind at all
31:31or were you exposed to that type of
31:33religion before? I I mean like I I knew
31:38of it. I didn't know details. I was not
31:40educated on it, but I knew of it. and I
31:43knew how we looked and he knew how we
31:46looked and I would say that is something
31:47he was conscious of conscious of and I
31:50would use that as an example of the way
31:52that he played on people's uh fears, how
31:56he manipulated people.
31:58>> Okay. Can you describe his wife Wanda
32:02and how she treated you? Because clearly
32:05the whole woman being there didn't
32:07matter. She was very much involved in
32:09the abuses. How did that play out? She's
32:13the kind of woman that when she says
32:16something where when she makes up her
32:18mind about something like it's very
32:22difficult for her to change plans. It's
32:25very difficult for her to alter her
32:27course of direction and um I have like
32:32so many thoughts but sometimes they
32:34sound conflicting but in my mind they
32:37all make sense. For example, like I
32:40think she craved attention. I think she
32:42wanted to um I think she wanted to be
32:47seen as
32:50someone special. I think she wanted to
32:53be
32:54different from everyone else. And I
32:57don't think she had ever felt like that
32:59had been the case for her life. I don't
33:02think she'd felt special. And I think
33:04she wanted to feel special. And I don't
33:06I mean she had a prior marriage. She had
33:08six children in the prior marriage. It
33:11ended in divorce. And I mean, again,
33:14this is coming from her, but
33:17from what she said of it, it didn't
33:19sound like it was a happy, healthy
33:22marriage. It sounded like it was
33:24abusive, an abusive marriage. But again,
33:27like this is coming from her and she's
33:30sitting there abusing, watching a child
33:32being abused. So,
33:34>> it's kind of hard to say exactly what
33:36the truth is there. There's the whole
33:38argument of, well, there's, you know,
33:41violence can perpetuate violence.
33:43Cycles. There's a reason why it's called
33:45a cycle. Like, was she abused and now
33:47she's abusing you? Like, we could get
33:49into the nitty-gritty of that,
33:52but for today's conversation,
33:55I'll I'll just say I think she wanted to
33:57feel special.
33:58>> Yeah.
33:59>> And I think she knew the difference
34:01between right and wrong.
34:04But I also think that her desire to feel
34:06special was
34:10much larger than any internal moral
34:13compass she had. And I think because
34:15Brian Mitchell told her the things that
34:18she wanted to hear, that was nicer and
34:22easier for her to go along with than
34:25actually admitting that he was a bad
34:28man, that he wanted to abuse little
34:30girls, that he wanted to have sex with
34:35anyone that he wanted, that he was above
34:37the law, that he was a narcissist, that
34:41he was a sociopath. I think just going
34:44along with his beliefs and what he well
34:46what he claimed he believed and what he
34:49told her about how special she was, how
34:52she was, you know, she was the queen to
34:55his king, that she was the mother of
34:58Zion, that she uh was called to suffer
35:02so much because she had such a beautiful
35:05and glorious throne waiting for her. I
35:08think those were all the things that she
35:09wanted to hear and that it was easier
35:12for her to be like, "That's right."
35:13Like, I have so much glory waiting for
35:16me in heaven. That is why I've had such
35:18a terrible, difficult life.
35:21Yeah. I mean, I wasn't there to witness
35:24her whole life. I can only say what I
35:26did witness, but
35:29I don't know.
35:31>> Yeah.
35:32>> It leaves a lot of room for questions.
35:35So she was an active participant in the
35:37abuse, not just a bystander, not just
35:40kind of gritting her teeth and looking
35:41away. You feel like she actively
35:44participated because it made her feel
35:46feel powerful in some way?
35:48>> Yes. I mean, she didn't ever like
35:51personally me abuse me in in that kind
35:54of way, but she watched it happen. She
35:59encouraged it to happen.
36:01uh she and Brian Mitchell would I don't
36:04want to say role play cuz it's not
36:06roleplay but they would show examples
36:09and force me to watch of how a wife was
36:12supposed to love her husband.
36:14>> What?
36:15>> Yes. She was very much I feel like an
36:18equal abuser even though she didn't ever
36:21like sexually touch me. Well, I think
36:24that's something good to talk about
36:26because people often think that you have
36:28to be touched in order to be sexed and
36:31that's just not the case.
36:32>> No. No. I mean, my mom, I just remember
36:36her always saying growing up that if I
36:39saw someone like bullying someone else
36:41on the bus and I didn't stand up and
36:44like stand up for the person being
36:46bullied on the bus, then I was just as
36:48guilty as the abuser. And so I guess in
36:50this situation, going into this
36:53situation, just having that always in
36:55the back of my head,
36:57like I I've just always felt like, yeah,
36:59she is equally as guilty as him. And
37:01then now that I'm a mother myself, um I
37:05just feel like, well, [sighs]
37:08you birthed six children. Yeah. I mean,
37:11I want to say you know what it is to be
37:13a mother, but at the same time, just
37:16because you birth six children doesn't
37:18actually make you a mother. And maybe
37:19you don't know what it means to be a
37:21mother because if you were, you would
37:23never stand aside and encourage a child
37:25to be abused. Like,
37:27>> absolutely.
37:28>> I don't care what child I saw. Like, I
37:30would never just stand aside and let
37:32another child be abused. I'd never be
37:33like, "Yeah, make sure you do it like
37:35that." I would never do that. It's so
37:38hard to even imagine that as a mother
37:40myself. It's that's why I wondered if
37:43when you saw her, you were like, "Oh, a
37:45woman here who is probably going to
37:46protect me or at least curb the abuse a
37:49little bit or, you know, help me get out
37:51of this situation or be an ally." And
37:53she was clearly the opposite. You were
37:55there for 9 months with them. Is there
37:59anything that you want to talk about
38:00your treatment or anything that you went
38:01through or suffered before you were able
38:04to finally escape? I mean, I think it's
38:07just
38:09I feel like if you look deeper than just
38:12like the overall story arc of what
38:14happened to me, like kidnapped out of my
38:16bedroom at knife point, held captive for
38:189 months, abused, eventually rescued,
38:21and you like you look get more into the
38:24nitty-gritty kind of like we are right
38:26now. I feel like um it's a call it a
38:31cautionary tell but it's a perfect
38:33example of how dangerous religion can
38:37be.
38:38>> Yeah.
38:38>> Because again this was all done like in
38:41the name of religion. And I think
38:42religion can be a beautiful wonderful
38:44thing. I think it brings hope and peace
38:47and joy to millions of people around the
38:50world whatever their belief is. But I
38:53just also think that maybe one of the
38:56worst evils a person can commit is
38:58taking something that is supposed to
38:59bring joy and comfort and peace and
39:02twisting it into something dark to serve
39:05a person's own ends. Um I think
39:08>> I think it's I mean I think it's just a
39:10very
39:12vivid example of that. I will never
39:14forget um a number of years ago I was
39:16flying on a plane and I sat down next to
39:20this uh Jewish gentleman next to me and
39:24we fell into conversation and I mean he
39:27was so kind. He was such a lovely man
39:29and he's like oh you're from Salt Lake
39:31City. Oh like oh you're raised Mormon.
39:34Oh um you know what our religions really
39:37aren't that different. He's like, "But
39:39you know, at the same time, it's
39:40incredible how one person can understand
39:43the same verse of scripture one way and
39:45another person can understand it a
39:47completely different way." And he was
39:49like, "For example, you know, um, when
39:52you hear the commandment, you know,
39:54don't take the Lord's name in vain, what
39:56does that mean to you?" And I was like,
39:57"Oh, well, you know, like we need to
40:00show the proper respect to the Lord's
40:02name so we don't just go around and say,
40:04"Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god." Like
40:06that's taking his name in vain. And he's
40:08like, well, he's like, I can understand
40:10why you might think that. And he's like,
40:12but you know, in my religion, he was
40:14like, again, words have meaning, but at
40:18the same time, they are also just a
40:20collection of letters. And like God is
40:24is just a word. It's just a word. It's
40:26just a collection of letters. And he's
40:28like for us when we say don't take the
40:31Lord's name in vain it means you can't
40:34say things like God commanded me to tell
40:37you this. It's using God as the reason
40:41to justify what your actions. He's like
40:44that to us is taking God's name in vain.
40:47And I will never forget that airplane
40:50ride. I'll never forget that
40:51conversation with that man because as he
40:54sat there and said that to me, I was
40:56like, that makes so much more sense.
40:59>> Yeah,
41:00>> that is so much more meaningful to me
41:02than just not saying not just casually
41:05throwing the the collection of letters
41:07God around, but that that just felt so
41:10much more meaningful to me,
41:12>> right? I remember hearing that same
41:13thing growing up. And that's why we say,
41:15"Oh my gosh." And even then, some
41:17parents were like, "You shouldn't be
41:18saying that because it means the same
41:19thing." I mean, you know, there
41:22exactly.
41:23>> Yeah. Oh, God. Or gosh darn it, you
41:26know, [laughter] all the things that we
41:28would say instead. But right, I learned
41:30that too a little bit later in life that
41:32it's really weaponizing God is where
41:36it's not okay.
41:37>> And I wanted to talk about too
41:39weaponizing
41:42purity culture. So purity culture, I
41:45think it's not specific to Mormonism. We
41:48talk about it through almost every
41:49single interview that we do across many
41:51different religions or even just groups,
41:53self-hel self-help groups. And on one
41:57side, I think purity culture was
42:00initially created to maybe keep
42:02teenagers safe and and keep them keep
42:05the relations between husband and wife,
42:08which I can agree if that's something
42:10that you want, then that's great and
42:11please do that. On the other hand, it
42:14teaches usually specifically to women
42:18that their entire worth is dependent on
42:21who has or has not touched them. And we
42:24talk about so much on this channel how
42:26people often forget the flip side of
42:28that where if you're teaching a woman
42:31that her purity is everything, what
42:33happens to someone who has been
42:35assaulted and who has been abused and
42:36why are we not talking about how to
42:38protect them and why are we not talking
42:41about their worth is not tied to their
42:44body in that way. It's so it can be so
42:48damaging to people and you've mentioned
42:50some of this in your book and how you
42:52really felt worthless after what they
42:55had done to you. And I just wanted to
42:58hear from you how you felt in that time
43:01and how you've come to unwind that
43:04harmful doctrine or that harmful idea
43:07that your worth is tied to your body
43:09since then.
43:10>> So you're absolutely right. I mean, I
43:13did hear abstinence until marriage,
43:16abstinence until marriage, which like I
43:18don't have a problem with. Like, I think
43:20if that's, you know, like that's what
43:23sits in your moral compass, like that's
43:27fine. That's great. Like, go ahead.
43:29Like,
43:30>> practice that, believe that. I think
43:31that's great. But at the same time, I
43:33just feel like if you are going to have
43:36these kinds of conversations, if you're
43:38going to talk about purity, if basically
43:41if you're going to talk don't have sex
43:43until marriage, you need to talk about
43:46the other side of things. You need to
43:48explain that there is a difference
43:51between loving intimacy. I think you
43:53need to explain what like consensual sex
43:55is, what loving intimacy is. Yes.
43:58>> And I think you need to explain what is.
44:00I think can you explain what sex is,
44:03what uh domestic abuse looks like, what
44:06you know what all these forms of
44:09exploitation and and abuse are because
44:12otherwise they're going to mean the same
44:14thing. And it can have honestly
44:17devastating side effects for a person's
44:20entire life if you are not clearly
44:23defining this is a healthy relationship
44:26and this is what we want for you to have
44:28and this is not. I mean, for example,
44:31I've met so many just an example of not
44:35understanding what consent is. I've met
44:37so many survivors, and I can't tell you
44:40how many of them I have heard this from.
44:42Well, you know, I um you I'm not a
44:46victim of rape. Um but I I just had this
44:50experience that's always made me doubt
44:52my self-worth. Um because I, you know, I
44:55was in high school or I was in college
44:56or whatever and I had this boyfriend and
45:00um he kept on telling me how much he
45:02loved me. He kept on telling me that if
45:05we truly loved each other, that we
45:06should have sex, that that was how we
45:08share our love for each other. And and I
45:10never wanted to, you know, I always told
45:12him I wanted to wait until marriage, but
45:14he just kept on saying it, kept on
45:15saying it, kept on saying it. Um and I
45:18just I just felt like I didn't have a
45:19choice. I felt like I had to give in.
45:22Um, and so I didn't want to, but I I had
45:25sex with him. Well, that's called
45:27coercion.
45:28>> That's called rape. That's not a healthy
45:30relationship. I think it's in Matthew
45:33McConnA's book um where he says that his
45:37I think it was his dad that told him if
45:40a woman ever shows the slightest
45:42hesitation, the slightest hesitation,
45:45doesn't even need to be words, just body
45:47language, don't do it. There'll be other
45:49times, there'll be other women. It's not
45:51worth it. Don't do it. And I just wish
45:54that came across more because words
45:57alone aren't enough. Actions alone
46:00aren't enough. For it to be actual
46:02consent, it needs to be supporting
46:04actions and and words saying yes.
46:07>> Yeah.
46:08>> Um, you know, rape can still happen
46:10within marriage. Rape can happen
46:12between, you know, husband and wife,
46:14husband, husband, wife and wife,
46:15whatever. You know, it can happen
46:17between partners. It can happen
46:18anywhere. And I think we all get this
46:21thought in our head that it's always
46:22going to be like a stranger and a little
46:25victim. Well,
46:26>> that may have been my case, but that's
46:29really not probably 99% of other cases.
46:32>> Mhm.
46:33>> I'd say the vast majority of cases
46:35people know who their abusers are. So I
46:38just think if we are going to talk about
46:41purity, chastity, virtue, you need to
46:44have this other side of the conversation
46:46as well of what consent is, of what
46:48sexual violence is. You need to explain
46:50what all these other things are. Because
46:53if you don't, then this little victim,
46:56this little innocent victim will then
46:59think, "I'm not worthy. I'm not lovable.
47:02I'm not good enough. I'm carrying around
47:05this dirty secret that if people
47:06actually knew the truth about me, they
47:09wouldn't want anything to do with me.
47:11>> Yeah.
47:12>> Because I'm just I'm just not lovable
47:14and I'm not worthy. I'm just filthy. I'm
47:16dirty. I'm broken. And nobody should
47:19feel that way. I mean, connecting like
47:21you said, connecting a person's value to
47:24those ideas that you're only valuable if
47:27you're, you know, a virgin before
47:29marriage, that's that's not true.
47:32>> Yeah.
47:33There's no other way for me to say it
47:34other than it's it's just it's not true.
47:37>> Yeah.
47:37>> We're all born with value that no one
47:40else can take away no matter what's
47:41happened to us.
47:42>> And this is a big like, oh, you could
47:44have gotten away or why didn't you try
47:46to run or why this this and that. But I
47:48what we try to do on this channel is
47:50really explain the mindset, the
47:51mentality of coercion, of mind control,
47:55of fear, of shame. And shame is a huge
47:59one. And that's something that I dealt
48:01with all my life growing up in Mormonism
48:03and still deal with it today even though
48:04I've left the church. It's still
48:06something that pops up because it's been
48:08so ingrained in my brain. And I feel
48:12like it's so important to talk about
48:15getting rid of that shame and owning
48:17yourself and finding that self-
48:18sovereignty. and talk about in your case
48:23how that mentality really kept you small
48:26and it kept you afraid on top of the
48:28very real threats that he was giving you
48:31about how he might go harm your family
48:34or even tried to abduct your cousin as a
48:37third wife and what you were going
48:40through emotionally that kept you down.
48:43So certainly that feeling that I was
48:45broken and that that absolutely played a
48:49role in it and I mean after I was
48:51rescued I didn't want anyone to know
48:54what had happened to me. I wanted to
48:55keep it a secret. I never wanted to talk
48:57about it again.
48:58>> Yeah.
48:59>> And that was even after like I knew with
49:01my brain that nothing that had happened
49:03to me was my fault. Like I knew that in
49:06my brain, but I still felt shame,
49:09embarrassment, guilt, everything,
49:13everything in my heart, my brain and my
49:16heart just did not align. I think as
49:18someone who has experienced both like
49:21physically being chained up and then
49:23mentally being chained up, I would just
49:27say that those mental chains are so much
49:29stronger than any physical chain that
49:31you could be chained with because a
49:32physical chain there's always a way to
49:34break it. There's always a way to cut
49:36through it. There's always I mean you
49:38may you might not have the tools. I
49:40didn't have the tools to to break
49:41through my physical chains, but I could
49:43still see it. I still consciously knew
49:47that there was a way to get away. But
49:49when you are mentally chained up, you
49:52you don't see them. It's not just as
49:54easy as taking a pair of bolt cutters
49:56and cutting them off. You know, they're
49:58invisible, but they are every bit as
50:00real as those physical chains,
50:03>> but you don't see like where does this
50:06end lock to? Where does this other end
50:10lock to? Like how do I unravel this? you
50:14you don't physically see them. And so
50:16then it's so easy to feel like you're
50:18just wandering around in the dark trying
50:21to figure out how do I become a person
50:24of worth again? How do I become a person
50:26of value again,
50:28>> but never being able to find the
50:29beginning or ending of those chains? Um
50:32so I mean when we look at cases of
50:35domestic violence, the average um victim
50:39of domestic violence, they leave their
50:42violent partner on average seven times
50:46before they actually successfully step
50:49away. And
50:52I think that is a great example of
50:55number one why those mental chains are
50:58so strong, but also it's another example
51:02of why people can look at them and be
51:03like, "Well, you had a phone, you had
51:06money, you had a car. I don't
51:08understand. If he was hurting you, if he
51:12was abusing you, why why didn't you just
51:15leave?" Um, it's so easy to make those
51:19kind of comments when you hear those
51:21kinds of cases, but the truth is what
51:23you're not seeing is you are not seeing
51:26the years of manipulation going into it.
51:28You're not seeing the years of grooming.
51:30It's not like just one day they were
51:32charming and kind and generous and
51:35affectionate and the next day, you know,
51:37they're smacking you around, throwing
51:38you downstairs.
51:40>> Like, it it doesn't work like that. It's
51:42it's a process and it's
51:46I don't even know if abusers always know
51:48what they're doing, but it's, you know,
51:50little bit by little bit and then you
51:52can always look back and you remember
51:54the good times and you're like, "Oh, but
51:56he is a good guy or she is a good woman
51:58or, you know, your partner's a a good
52:00person." But then it just keeps on
52:03getting deeper and deeper. I mean, it's
52:05it's called grooming for a reason. I
52:07mean, it's even like brushing your your
52:09hair, you know? you you start at the
52:11bottom and it's just like little strokes
52:13and then you slowly work up up up
52:16because if you start at the top,
52:17especially if you get out of the shower
52:19and you're just trying to brush it
52:20straight out of the shower, you know,
52:21you get your brush like [laughter]
52:24>> you you can't do that. You start at the
52:26bottom and then you work your way up. I
52:28mean, it's the same thing with
52:30>> with grooming, you know, you it's just
52:32little steps. It's slowly like, you
52:34know, it didn't just like go from zero
52:36to 100 one day to the next. Yeah. And so
52:40we talk about these chains and the
52:42invisible ones and how they are the
52:44hardest to break. Even when you were
52:47freed, which the America's Most Wanted
52:50episode airs, somebody recognizes you. I
52:54mean, there's so much to your story,
52:55which everyone can go watch kidnapped if
52:57they want the details of all of that. I
52:59was even surprised at some of the things
53:00that I hadn't known about how you were
53:02almost rescued in the library and I was
53:04like, "Oh my gosh, you were so close."
53:06and then how finally you were able to
53:08get away. But let's talk about breaking
53:10those invisible chains once you got
53:13home. It doesn't mean that everything's
53:15fine now. Yay, you're rescued. You're
53:17back to physical safety. But your
53:19nervous system is shot. You've just been
53:21through hell and you're still trying to
53:23work out all of these mental things, the
53:26mental abuse, spiritual abuse,
53:27everything that had gone on and separate
53:30yourself from that while still having
53:32this mentality of I just don't want to
53:35talk to anybody. I mean, in your book,
53:36you said that you wanted nothing to do
53:38with therapy. And I couldn't have
53:39related more. My mom tried to take me to
53:42therapy once because of a family issue
53:43that we had, and I was l I would have
53:45dreams that they were going to put me in
53:46a psychward. I was like, do not take me
53:49to talk therapy. I will run away. And
53:52so, you talk about this this progression
53:54of trying to find out what worked for
53:56you. And you also do a great job of
53:59giving advice or talking about different
54:02mo modalities that people could use who
54:04are reading your book and what helped
54:05you, what might help them, and not one
54:08sizefits-all, of course. Can we talk
54:10about that progression of what helped
54:14you start to rid yourself of that
54:17mentality that was holding you down and
54:19helped you start stepping into who you
54:21are now? If I had to boil it down, I
54:25think it was
54:27um learning to love myself again.
54:30>> Yeah.
54:30>> Um because if I could learn to love
54:32myself, then no one else had a reason
54:35not to love me. I mean, because of
54:36things that were done. Like I get it.
54:39People just don't like my personality.
54:41Like fair. [snorts]
54:43[gasps]
54:44But if I could learn to love myself
54:46again, then surely other people could
54:49love me as well. And so, um, I mean,
54:53that took time. Again, that didn't just
54:55happen overnight. I think a lot of it
54:57came down to the ability to, uh, make
55:00choices for myself again. Um, being able
55:04to experience
55:06more than just like the little
55:10the little bit of life that I had
55:12experienced. I mean, I will forever be
55:16grateful to my parents that they allowed
55:18me to make decisions because again, as a
55:21parent now, I'm heaven forbid anything
55:25like that ever happened to one of my
55:26children. But I feel like if it did, I
55:30feel like I would just be there night
55:32and day hovering over them, trying to
55:34make every decision for them. Yeah,
55:36>> I think they'd hate it. I know I'd be
55:39doing them a disservice, but I think
55:41that would be so difficult to overcome.
55:43So, the fact that my parents didn't do
55:45that to me, I am so grateful for. I
55:47mean, they allowed me to make decisions,
55:50they allowed me to say, "No, I I don't
55:52want to go to talk therapy or I want to
55:56go to this high school." I remember I
55:59remember in specific after I was rescued
56:01I was told like I could have my own
56:03graduation ceremony um at back at the
56:06junior high or I could walk with the
56:08class that was behind me at my junior
56:10high or I don't know just thinking no I
56:13don't want to do my like my classmates
56:16the people I've gone to school with my
56:17whole life they've already finished
56:18junior high I'm not going back to junior
56:20high yeah
56:21>> I don't want to repeat freshman year I
56:22mean I never experienced freshman year
56:24but I don't want to repeat it when all
56:25of my friends are moving on into their
56:28sophomore year. U and so then because I
56:32said that I didn't want to do that, you
56:33know, I was given um packets that I
56:36could catch up on the credits that were
56:38mandatory for freshman year and I was
56:40given that as an option. And you know
56:41what? I'm so grateful that like I was
56:43given those options. I think options
56:45really help us figure out who we are.
56:47Like our choices help us figure out who
56:50we are. Um they can help us realize
56:53like, hey, I'm still here. I'm still
56:55alive. I didn't give up. I'm still
56:58someone of worth because I have to be
57:00pretty strong to have made it through
57:02everything I've made it through. And
57:04>> that's something to be proud of. And and
57:06I hope that all victims [snorts] get to
57:09that point. I mean, we've all survived
57:12our own worst day so far. And I think
57:15that that should be a reminder. Um, give
57:19yourself a little grace. Be proud of
57:21what you've of how far you've come. I
57:23mean, even if that worst day was
57:24yesterday, be proud of yourself for
57:26surviving yesterday. Today's your worst
57:29day. Be proud of surviving today as far
57:31as you have. Like, way to go.
57:34Um, but I think, yeah, being given the
57:37space to make decisions for yourself and
57:41just learning to find value and worth in
57:44yourself is probably the best way to
57:47start moving forward and and healing
57:50that [snorts]
57:52those feelings of of worthlessness, of
57:56um guilt, of shame, of, you know, not
58:00being good as as good as everyone else,
58:03of comparison. I please nobody should
58:06compare themselves to anyone else. We're
58:08all different. Like there's just no
58:11accurate way we can compare ourselves to
58:13each other.
58:14>> And I also didn't know until reading
58:15your book that you served a mission in
58:17Paris. So, it seemed like was the church
58:20a lifeline for you or something that you
58:22could hold on to or sink your teeth into
58:26to really ground you back into maybe
58:30your life or how you knew it before or
58:33what was that for you?
58:35Um, I mean, because my captors used God
58:40to justify everything that they wanted.
58:44Um, it would have been very easy to
58:47think that
58:49God wasn't kind or that he wasn't loving
58:52or that he didn't care. But because I'd
58:55always been raised to believe that God
58:57was our heavenly father and that he
59:00loves us and that we are his children
59:03and he loves us the same way any good
59:06father loves their children that you
59:10know he wouldn't leave us alone. We
59:12wouldn't be abandoned. We could always
59:13turn to him. And so that was a much more
59:16comforting thought for me, a much more
59:19comforting belief than to think that my
59:22captors could possibly be correct in
59:25what they said about God. So
59:27>> yes, I would say that was definitely a
59:29sense of hope. That was a sense of
59:30comfort. That was something I absolutely
59:33held on to uh before my captivity,
59:37during my captivity, after my captivity.
59:39I would say it was a very big part of my
59:40life.
59:41>> And you met your husband at the MTC.
59:44Yeah, I did. [laughter]
59:46That was such a cute little story time
59:49moment as I'm reading your book. I'm
59:50like, "Oh, I could just imagine that."
59:53Now, aside from the guy who you went on
59:57like two dates with trying to sneak in,
59:59well, he did sneak into the MTC and
1:00:01propose to you. I was like, "What a
1:00:03beautiful little love story that
1:00:05[laughter]
1:00:06you you met." He's Scottish, right?
1:00:09Scottish husband. That's so sweet. So I
1:00:12wanted to get into that a little bit
1:00:14life after. So we talk with a lot of
1:00:17women here who have been through
1:00:19traumatic experiences, abuse either from
1:00:21the religion itself or people within the
1:00:23religion and what that means once you
1:00:26leave and find yourself, love yourself,
1:00:28learn to love yourself and open yourself
1:00:31back up to romance and allowing someone
1:00:35else to love you back, right? What was
1:00:37that process like? Was it hard for you
1:00:40to let go and open up? Was it gradual?
1:00:43I'm sure it was probably gradual, but
1:00:45what made you feel safe enough to open
1:00:47up to your husband?
1:00:48>> So, um I actually get asked this
1:00:51question a lot and it's been interesting
1:00:53the way people have asked it because
1:00:55they're like, "You were so abused. How
1:00:57could you have kids with your husband?"
1:00:59>> Oh my gosh. Well, I'm not aside from
1:01:02being intimate, which you can go there
1:01:03if you want, but I [laughter] just mean
1:01:06emotionally, right? Like women have to
1:01:08feel safe in order to open up in any
1:01:11type of way, emotionally or physically.
1:01:13And I know just even being that
1:01:16vulnerable is terrifying for most
1:01:18people, let alone someone who has been
1:01:20through something so traumatic. I just
1:01:22want to begin by saying I have such
1:01:24compassion
1:01:26for victims who their perpetrators are
1:01:31parents,
1:01:32family members,
1:01:34community leaders,
1:01:37uh family, friends because that is a
1:01:41level of betrayal that I have never
1:01:43experienced and I hope I never do
1:01:46experience that. So, I just want to
1:01:49commend and virtually hug and uplift
1:01:53every survivor who has experienced that
1:01:56because that is it takes so much bravery
1:01:59to continue to move forward after just
1:02:03that the depth of that betrayal. Um
1:02:07because those are the people who should
1:02:09be protecting you, loving you,
1:02:11supporting you, making sure you're safe.
1:02:13And to know those aren't the ones that
1:02:14are doing that is so unfair, so unjust.
1:02:18>> Yeah.
1:02:19>> Um but in my case, you know, I was I
1:02:23after I was
1:02:25rescued, after I got home, I mean, I was
1:02:28nervous around men. Um I didn't feel
1:02:33comfortable around I mean men
1:02:36specifically around that that that
1:02:39middle-aged mark. Um, similar to my
1:02:42captor's age, um, I just I automatically
1:02:46recognized the power imbalance. I mean,
1:02:49the physicality imbalance between men
1:02:52and what teenager.
1:02:55Um, like I just knew that if someone
1:02:58really wanted to hurt me that they
1:02:59could, that there wouldn't be a whole
1:03:01lot I could do about it. I tried to
1:03:03avoid being left alone
1:03:06um around men by myself for for a long
1:03:10time. I always um I always felt safe
1:03:13around my grandpa. There were a few men
1:03:15that I felt safe around. And I would say
1:03:18that that was helpful in in reminding me
1:03:22that there were
1:03:24still there were good men. There were
1:03:26men I could trust. And I I think that it
1:03:30was very helpful that, you know, I came
1:03:31back and I was still a child. Like I
1:03:34didn't have to jump into a relationship.
1:03:37I didn't my parents, you know, they
1:03:38didn't they don't practice pre-arranged
1:03:41marriages. Um I wasn't going to come
1:03:43back and be married off to a 50-year-old
1:03:45man. I mean, I think had any of those
1:03:48factors been in play,
1:03:50I would be a very different person to
1:03:52who I am today. Um, my parents always
1:03:57supported
1:03:59me being able to say no to people. And
1:04:01in fact, my dad used to have my sister
1:04:03and I come into his office and just
1:04:05practice screaming.
1:04:06>> Oh my gosh.
1:04:08>> Yeah. Because he's just like, "You have
1:04:11a voice. I know you can use it. Please
1:04:13use it." And
1:04:14>> that's awesome.
1:04:15>> Yelling. Like if someone is trying to
1:04:18you um yelling just screaming and
1:04:22yelling 50% of the time will stop that
1:04:25from being completed. Now that is only
1:04:28half of the time and really the only way
1:04:30we can really stop from happening is for
1:04:32this to stop being you can be as
1:04:34prepared as you want but still having a
1:04:37voice and using it. I mean something we
1:04:40should practice. Um and I so I remember
1:04:42my dad doing that. I mean, and I was
1:04:45also allowed to like, you know, go back
1:04:48to high school, like go
1:04:52to a dance for the first time. Um, it
1:04:56wasn't just like 0 to 60.
1:04:58>> Mhm.
1:04:58>> But, you know, I was able to like
1:05:02not rewind time because you can't do
1:05:04that, but I was allowed to go back and
1:05:09in a way reclaim some of what had been
1:05:12lost to me. And I think that was that
1:05:14was very helpful and like allowed me to
1:05:18progress to a place where when I did
1:05:20eventually meet my husband like I was
1:05:22excited. I was happy. I was looking
1:05:25forward to you know being with him and
1:05:29you know marrying him and having kids
1:05:32and a life together. And the one thing I
1:05:35will say about my husband that I that
1:05:38probably first attracted him to me was
1:05:40the fact that he just didn't care. Like
1:05:43he didn't care about my past. Like I
1:05:45wasn't Elizabeth Smart, the girl that
1:05:47was kidnapped. I was just Elizabeth, the
1:05:52cute girl that sat across from him. And
1:05:55so then with that being said, I mean, he
1:05:57never really worried about,
1:06:00oh, if I say this, am I going to offend
1:06:02her? if I say that, like, is she just
1:06:04going to crumble and break down? I mean,
1:06:05he's always just been like, "No, I don't
1:06:08agree." Or like, "I I think you're
1:06:10wrong." I'm not saying I like to be told
1:06:12I'm wrong, but I appreciate honesty. you
1:06:15know, like I want someone in my life
1:06:17who's going to be like like no, that's
1:06:21not going to work or that's not right or
1:06:23you know, like I think you need to think
1:06:24about it again or you know what you like
1:06:27I love you and you're wonderful but um
1:06:31that probably wasn't the right thing to
1:06:32say. Like I want honest feedback. I want
1:06:35honesty in a relationship and with him I
1:06:38I definitely know I'll always get that.
1:06:40Yeah, I think that's great that you
1:06:42brought that up because I did want to
1:06:44ask you if there was anything that
1:06:46really helped you open up to him
1:06:49specifically, and I think you already
1:06:50nailed it. The fact that he didn't want
1:06:52to treat you with kid gloves, that he
1:06:54accepted you and saw you for you and not
1:06:57for any traumas or past events or
1:07:00anything that happened to you. He was
1:07:02just very willing to be accepting of
1:07:06every little piece and not let that
1:07:08affect how he viewed you. Was there
1:07:10anything else that you feel like to the
1:07:13people out there listening who maybe
1:07:15want to be advocates and want to date
1:07:18someone who's maybe been through a hard
1:07:19situation, what can they do to help that
1:07:22other person not only feel safe, but
1:07:24just feel accepted? I think one of the
1:07:26first things um you can do is
1:07:30if if you know someone has been through
1:07:32something already, if they say no, don't
1:07:35take offense. It's probably not I would
1:07:38say it's probably 99% not because of
1:07:42something you did. It's just because
1:07:44your partner's not ready or they're just
1:07:46not emotionally in the right place for
1:07:49that yet. So, um I would just say be
1:07:53patient, be kind, be supportive, be
1:07:57loving,
1:07:59don't run away.
1:08:00>> Yeah, that's beautiful. And the last
1:08:02thing I wanted to ask you about before
1:08:03we go is how it's been healing andor
1:08:08difficult becoming a mother and maybe
1:08:12reliving some of your own trauma. I know
1:08:14for me, looking at my little baby the
1:08:17same ages that I've been abused has
1:08:18really held up a mirror of, "Oh man,
1:08:21this is so real and so different when
1:08:24you can externalize your trauma in a
1:08:26certain way, see it from a different
1:08:28perspective or or just see things from a
1:08:30different perspective as a mother. I'm
1:08:31like, how could anybody do that to a
1:08:33child, right?" So, what have been the
1:08:36challenges of becoming a mom to three
1:08:38and moving through that stage of
1:08:40motherhood?
1:08:42I think it's given me so much more
1:08:44compassion for my own parents, so much
1:08:46more understanding for my own parents
1:08:49and why they did everything that they
1:08:51did. Um because again, as a mother now,
1:08:56I think, you know what, I would gladly
1:08:57be kidnapped all over again if it meant
1:08:59that it didn't have to happen to my
1:09:02children.
1:09:03>> Um so it's just I'd say it's just given
1:09:05me a lot more compassion and empathy and
1:09:07understanding for the situation that
1:09:09they were in. Um, I think it's also
1:09:12probably made me a lot more open when
1:09:16having like conversations around safety,
1:09:21um, like body safety, um, why, like why
1:09:25I don't believe in sleepovers.
1:09:28It's forced me just to be a lot more
1:09:30communicative with my own children. And
1:09:32actually, I'm so grateful for that
1:09:34>> because if anything, I'd rather have my
1:09:37kids overeducated than under. Yes,
1:09:40absolutely. And what you're doing now,
1:09:42your advocacy work, your public
1:09:44speaking, you've been doing it for
1:09:45years, is such an important piece of
1:09:48this because, and that's not to say
1:09:50everyone who has been harmed or
1:09:52traumatized or hurt in any way, is
1:09:55required to use their voice to speak
1:09:57out. This is something that you chose to
1:09:59do, you felt called to do, and is
1:10:01helping so many people. Can you talk
1:10:03about your advocacy work, your Elizabeth
1:10:05Smart Foundation, and even the um the
1:10:08techniques that you are teaching kids
1:10:10for self-defense?
1:10:12>> So, uh yeah, the Elizabeth Smart
1:10:14Foundation
1:10:16really is about trying to spread
1:10:18awareness, spread education,
1:10:21um teach prevention. Um again, like I
1:10:24said, there's there's no preventing from
1:10:28happening unless we're stop raining. But
1:10:30we want to give as many tools as we can
1:10:32because
1:10:34um sometimes they're enough of a
1:10:36deterrent for for the abuse to stop.
1:10:40Sometimes it's enough of a deterrent for
1:10:42um the rapist to stop. I mean sometimes
1:10:44it's just in the way that you carry your
1:10:47posture that you don't look like an easy
1:10:49victim that can make a difference. So uh
1:10:52one of our programs is called Smart
1:10:54Defense. It's probably our our flagship
1:10:56program and um it is a trauma-informed
1:11:00self-defense class. It is a combination
1:11:02of Brazilian jiujitsu, Krab Magga, and
1:11:05Muay Thai. I love that.
1:11:06>> But we do.
1:11:08>> Right.
1:11:08>> Krav Magaw is next level. Oh my gosh.
1:11:11I've taken a few classes and it will do
1:11:13some damage.
1:11:15>> It will. Yeah. And my director, she is
1:11:18like Oh, she's a beast. I mean, she's
1:11:21like the kindest, sweetest woman. And if
1:11:23you saw her, you'd be like, "Wow, she's
1:11:24so beautiful. Like, she's so kind. She's
1:11:28so compassionate." But I tell you what,
1:11:31I'm like a head taller than her, and she
1:11:33could take me down with her pinky
1:11:35finger. [laughter]
1:11:36I mean, like, she for like her weight
1:11:38class, like I think she's she's won her
1:11:41weight class like five times on a world
1:11:44stage. Like, she knows she knows her
1:11:47stuff.
1:11:48>> Yeah, [laughter] that's amazing. And um
1:11:50but she like she includes a lot of
1:11:52breath work. She talks about how even
1:11:55with all of her years of experience, it
1:11:57could still happen to her tomorrow. So
1:12:00just because you take this class doesn't
1:12:03mean that like you are fully equipped to
1:12:06never be heard again. I mean I wish it
1:12:08was true, but I mean these are things
1:12:10like anything else like a language if
1:12:12you don't practice it, you're going to
1:12:13lose it. Um so like self-defense, it
1:12:15should be practiced regularly. But
1:12:17amidst all the all the techniques that
1:12:21we teach, um we want women just to feel
1:12:23powerful. We want them to feel like they
1:12:25can scream, they can take up space, they
1:12:28can fight back because our natural
1:12:31responses are, and most people have
1:12:34heard of some of them, but there's
1:12:36fight, flight, freeze, and there is also
1:12:38appease, which basically a lot of people
1:12:41confuse it with fawning, which I really
1:12:45dislike the idea of fawning cuz that
1:12:47sounds like flirtation. Yeah,
1:12:50>> that sounds like you to some degree want
1:12:53it. And that does not sit well with me
1:12:58because ultimately what appeasement
1:13:00means is you're doing whatever you have
1:13:03to do to survive.
1:13:06>> So from the outside it might look like
1:13:08you're complicit. It might look like
1:13:09you're okay. might look like you're
1:13:12going along with whatever you're being
1:13:13told, but actually on the inside you are
1:13:16doing what you're doing to stay alive.
1:13:20>> Um, and that's what appeasement is. So
1:13:23we we do a lot of talking about you know
1:13:25these uh these
1:13:29these responses these trauma responses
1:13:33and um we don't want to attach any like
1:13:38shame or guilt and be like well you
1:13:40should have done this you should have
1:13:41done that. That's not what this is at
1:13:43all. This is about just empowerment
1:13:45helping you realize you're strong. I
1:13:47mean, I have held the I've held the mats
1:13:49while women practice their striking like
1:13:52all the way from 11 year olds, pregnant
1:13:55women,
1:13:5770 year olds. And like we are strong.
1:14:01Women are strong. Everyone is strong.
1:14:04You're stronger than you think you are.
1:14:06And it's easy to feel small. It's easy
1:14:08to forget that. I mean, I feel like so
1:14:10many of us are taught to be good girls.
1:14:12We're taught to be kind. We're taught to
1:14:14be respectful, quiet.
1:14:16But and that's there's nothing wrong
1:14:18with being taught those things. You
1:14:20know, I hope if I teach my children
1:14:21anything, I hope I teach them to be kind
1:14:23to good people. But being kind doesn't
1:14:27mean sacrificing your personal safety.
1:14:30>> Yes.
1:14:30>> It doesn't mean making yourself small so
1:14:34someone else can take up space and hurt
1:14:36you. That is not what being kind means.
1:14:39Yeah.
1:14:40>> And recognizing that it's okay to use
1:14:43your tools, your voice, your body, to to
1:14:46scream, to fight, to try to get away, to
1:14:48do whatever it is. And sometimes maybe
1:14:50it is doing what that person said
1:14:52because maybe someone is holding a knife
1:14:54to your neck. Maybe someone is holding a
1:14:55gun to your head. Maybe someone has
1:14:57those invisible mental chains wrapped
1:14:59around you tight where you feel like you
1:15:01don't have an option.
1:15:03>> Yeah.
1:15:03>> Like sometimes it might be just doing
1:15:05what you have to do to survive. But it
1:15:08is about just empowering you, giving you
1:15:10choices, and helping you realize that no
1:15:13matter what happens, um it is it's not
1:15:17your fault. Being a victim, being an
1:15:19abuse victim is never your fault. It is
1:15:23only the fault of the perpetrator.
1:15:25>> Absolutely. All of this, there's so many
1:15:28golden nuggets and gems. I would love to
1:15:31do some sort of educational live with
1:15:32you where we go through some of those
1:15:34things, talk more at length about the
1:15:37different responses, how you can educate
1:15:40yourself, body safety, all of those
1:15:43things that are so important, I feel
1:15:45like, especially right now for young
1:15:47women to understand and to know that
1:15:49they have options and to know what they
1:15:51can do if they're in certain situations.
1:15:54Uh, so maybe we can set that up. No
1:15:56pressure, of course, but it would be so
1:15:58great to hear from you. everything that
1:16:00you've learned and gathered and the
1:16:02people that you've spoken to. I love
1:16:04also in your book detours, how you give
1:16:06the perspective of a psychologist and
1:16:09doctors who talk about the psychology of
1:16:11different things and how you can use
1:16:14that to your benefit when deconstructing
1:16:16from traumatic events. So, all of that
1:16:19to say, this has been incredible. We're
1:16:21out of time, so let's do a Linda listen
1:16:25moment. either a sassy statement to
1:16:27someone who's pissed you off or harmed
1:16:29you or something inspirational for our
1:16:31viewers.
1:16:32>> Okay. I would just say you are all
1:16:36stronger than you ever think you are and
1:16:39you won't know how strong you are until
1:16:40you have no other choice. So don't give
1:16:43up. Be brave and keep going.
1:16:46>> I love it. Amazing. Thank you so much,
1:16:49Elizabeth, for coming on today.
1:16:51>> Yeah. Thank you for having me.
1:16:52>> Yeah. So tell everybody where they can
1:16:55find you. Website, social media, your
1:16:57book, anything that you'd like to
1:16:59promote or share before we sign off.
1:17:01>> Yeah, so my social media is Elizabeth
1:17:04Smart official. Really original.
1:17:06[laughter] Uh my foundation social media
1:17:08is Elizabeth Smart Foundation. Um you
1:17:11can go to elizabethsmartfoundation.org.
1:17:14Uh that has more about our programs, our
1:17:17classes, um how you can get in touch.
1:17:20Um, and then my newest book, Detours. It
1:17:23is you can buy it at elizabethsmart.com
1:17:26or you can find it on Amazon. And um,
1:17:31yeah, thank you for having me.
1:17:33>> Yeah, of course. Any other final
1:17:34thoughts before we go?
1:17:36>> I feel like you're a very thorough
1:17:37interviewer. [laughter]
1:17:39>> Great.
1:17:39>> And I mean that as a compliment.
1:17:41>> I love to hear it. Well, it's been
1:17:43fantastic talking with you and I
1:17:44appreciate you being so open and
1:17:45vulnerable and sharing all those details
1:17:47with us today.
1:17:48>> Thank you.
1:17:49>> Yeah. So guys, thank you so much for
1:17:51watching. We really appreciate your
1:17:53support. The best way to support the
1:17:54show and our guests, of course, is
1:17:55interacting with the post, leaving those
1:17:57words of encouragement for Elizabeth
1:17:58down below. Any thoughts, comments,
1:18:01anything you'd like to share. We'd love
1:18:02to hear from you in the comments. And if
1:18:04you want to support further, we have
1:18:06channel memberships where we are going
1:18:07to be doing channel member live streams
1:18:10only and a little bit of behind the
1:18:12scenes content as well. If that's not
1:18:14your thing, we have a Patreon,
1:18:15patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness.
1:18:17We have a clips channel where you can
1:18:19watch shorter versions of our
1:18:20interviews, 8 to 10 minutes. You can
1:18:22head on over to that, too. And if you
1:18:24like this video, I'll link two more down
1:18:26here below. And until next time, follow
1:18:28your highest excitement, be conscious,
1:18:30and be well.

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