"Elections are now a global thing": What Christopher Wylie's CBS News interview says about 2020 — Transcript

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1. 0:00a former consultant blew the whistle on
2. 0:02data analysis from Cambridge analytical
3. 0:04in 2018 exposing the illegal use of
4. 0:07information from nearly 70 million
5. 0:10Facebook users for political marketing
6. 0:12purposes Christopher Wylie uncovered the
7. 0:15company's role in president Trump's 2016
8. 0:17presidential campaign and brexit while
9. 0:20he also revealed the company's links to
10. 0:22Russia
11. 0:22the scandal sparked global criminal and
12. 0:25political investigations in his new book
13. 0:27he details the scandal Wiley sat down
14. 0:30with CBS News investigative reporter
15. 0:32Graham Cates and CNET senior producer
16. 0:34Dan Patterson to discuss a range of
17. 0:37issues including election security I
18. 0:39wonder if you could help us answer a
19. 0:42really simple question which is we're
20. 0:44still trying to unpack 2016 and there's
21. 0:46going to be a lot of analysis still to
22. 0:50come on that what aren't we paying
23. 0:52attention to in 2020 who is the next
24. 0:54Cambridge analytic and where should not
25. 0:58just reporters but the public be looking
26. 1:00yeah so one of the things that I talk
27. 1:03about in the book is something that I
28. 1:06feel like the Moller investigation mists
29. 1:09and actually I feel like a lot of
30. 1:10American journalists missed which was
31. 1:13really unpacking the international
32. 1:17nature of this alt-right network that
33. 1:19exists right so you know in 2016 you
34. 1:25know you had some of the main funders of
35. 1:27brexit regularly meeting with the
36. 1:30Russian ambassador you know talking and
37. 1:33mentioning in correspondence about
38. 1:36brexit about American politics flying to
39. 1:39the United States those same people met
40. 1:43with the Trump campaign met with Steve
41. 1:45Bannon met with Donald Trump attended
42. 1:47rallies some of those people one in
43. 1:51particular was actually arrested in the
44. 1:53summer of 2016 by federal agents when
45. 1:57they were trying to return to London and
46. 2:00the information on that arrest was then
47. 2:02immediately passed on to the Russian
48. 2:04embassy in the UK when Donald Trump got
49. 2:08elected as president-elect some of the
50. 2:11very first people he met with were these
51. 2:12same people
52. 2:13who were regularly briefing the Russian
53. 2:15ambassador and the reason I explained
54. 2:17this is because so often American media
55. 2:21will focus on just what's happening in
56. 2:22the United States right so you know
57. 2:25so-and-so met somebody and they have
58. 2:26some association with somebody in Russia
59. 2:28right but that was in New York or that
60. 2:30was in Virginia that was wherever and
61. 2:31not like taking a step back and looking
62. 2:34at the fact that like you know it it's
63. 2:36no coincidence that you know somebody
64. 2:39like Steve Banta has spent so much time
65. 2:40in Europe right and and so the what I
66. 2:45would hope American journalists do in
67. 2:47the next cycle is pay attention to where
68. 2:50people are going and the conversations
69. 2:53they're having not just in the United
70. 2:54States but you know elections now are a
71. 2:57global thing right because we've got the
72. 2:59internet because we've got you know
73. 3:01these large political networks around
74. 3:03the world what happens in Eastern Europe
75. 3:05or what happens in Southeast Asia is as
76. 3:08important as what is happening in the
77. 3:10United States dan Patterson joins me now
78. 3:13Dan thanks so much for being here
79. 3:15good to see you Paula it's a great
80. 3:16interview all right so what exactly is
81. 3:18it that he's saying what is he trying to
82. 3:21flag about foreign interference in the
83. 3:23next election so there were a few things
84. 3:25that widely wanted us to pay attention
85. 3:26to regarding the president's cohort and
86. 3:29his relationships in specifically
87. 3:32Ukraine and in fact in an excerpt from
88. 3:34the interview we had with mr. Reilly he
89. 3:37pointed out some connections that Rudy
90. 3:39Giuliani's lawfirm had in Ukraine and he
91. 3:43said specifically that Rudy's Rudy
92. 3:45Giuliani's law firm was advising
93. 3:48Cambridge analytical on the lawlessness
94. 3:50or the lawfulness of the foreign
95. 3:53registered and foreign agents
96. 3:55registration so anyway Wiley was talking
97. 3:59about Giuliani's connection with Ukraine
98. 4:02almost two years before we discovered it
99. 4:06the summer the other thing he wanted us
100. 4:08to pay attention to were these networks
101. 4:10of what he called the alt-right but this
102. 4:12was many of Steve bannon's cohort that
103. 4:15were involved in spreading propaganda
104. 4:17before the previous election and the
105. 4:20relationship with Russian actors so when
106. 4:22he says this is now international what
107. 4:24he's saying is that look information
108. 4:26and tactics spread it's pretty easy for
109. 4:30these things to proliferate because
110. 4:32they're this is information warfare as
111. 4:34opposed to kinetic warfare warfare
112. 4:36asymmetrical asymmetrical is exactly
113. 4:39right that's really interesting so
114. 4:41Facebook was exploited by Cambridge
115. 4:42analytic in this instance a relatively
116. 4:44small company but he says bigger
117. 4:47companies in big countries are doing the
118. 4:49same thing so looking at 2020 or where
119. 4:52is the threat yes so that's exactly what
120. 4:54wily wants us to pay attention to he
121. 4:58says that hey look we were able to do
122. 5:00this get almost 87 million records from
123. 5:04the small little company and again
124. 5:07tactics proliferate information
125. 5:09proliferate and so we see countries like
126. 5:12specifically China Iran and North Korea
127. 5:15adopt the exact same tactics and spread
128. 5:18propaganda in other events that are
129. 5:22perhaps not as newsworthy as a major
130. 5:25election but can blow up we are seeing
131. 5:28some of those tactics happen right now
132. 5:29in Hong Kong that's interesting you also
133. 5:32asked them know about skeptics because
134. 5:33some people don't believe that
135. 5:35propaganda on Facebook can really have
136. 5:38that much of an influence yeah that
137. 5:40skepticism is pretty healthy he used a
138. 5:42metaphor that I think is pretty useful
139. 5:44so he said imagine you go on a blind
140. 5:47date with somebody and you hit it off
141. 5:48you get along really well and you say
142. 5:51hey look this is amazing I had all these
143. 5:53things in common with somebody and they
144. 5:55really seem to know and understand me
145. 5:56and then you realize that that person
146. 5:59had spent two years researching you
147. 6:02figuring out what you like what you
148. 6:03dislike ways to trigger you emotionally
149. 6:06creepy that would be creepy
150. 6:08instead of being something that you
151. 6:10found endearing so what he says is that
152. 6:12look you don't have to believe that
153. 6:14propaganda changed the entire election
154. 6:17but is it crazy to think that this
155. 6:19company which is one of the most
156. 6:21valuable companies in history has
157. 6:24reached that valuation because they are
158. 6:26just not good at advertising no he says
159. 6:28in fact that Facebook is incredibly good
160. 6:30at advertising and they're pretty
161. 6:32incredibly good at disseminating
162. 6:34propaganda and when he blew the whistle
163. 6:37they famously retaliated against
164. 6:39by deleting his Facebook account which
165. 6:41some people could think is a blessing
166. 6:43right have a lot more free time but what
167. 6:44else what else did they do to him so
168. 6:46Facebook deleted his account after
169. 6:50immediately after Wiley blew the whistle
170. 6:52but what he discovered is that what a
171. 6:54lot of people might discovered if you
172. 6:56delete your Facebook account that the
173. 6:58tendrils extend into your other social
174. 7:00profiles he was unable to log into he
175. 7:03says his tinder account because that was
176. 7:05tied to his social login mean very maybe
177. 7:09everybody's looking for love nobody
178. 7:11wants to die alone so true but what is
179. 7:13perhaps creepier is that he discovered
180. 7:16not only did they delete his messages
181. 7:18but they deleted the messages he had
182. 7:20sent to other people he had screenshots
183. 7:22where he showed look this is a
184. 7:24conversation where somebody is now
185. 7:26having a conversation with themselves
186. 7:27you could have inserted me into this
187. 7:29conversation there's so many levels to
188. 7:32this all right there's the security
189. 7:33there's just your personal information
190. 7:36there's also what you find out on
191. 7:38Facebook I find I don't know if you find
192. 7:40this but it tends to be the most abusive
193. 7:41comments that beep I had yet come to
194. 7:43Facebook so is his lesson that everyone
195. 7:45should delete their Facebook account no
196. 7:47in fact his lesson is great there was a
197. 7:49lot of new ones too what he said about
198. 7:51this and that's something that we kind
199. 7:52of lack in this binary should you delete
200. 7:54should you keep it and what he said is
201. 7:56that look you shouldn't be forced into
202. 7:58this choice that Facebook is almost at
203. 8:01this point critical infrastructure
204. 8:02because we rely on it so heavily not
205. 8:04just to share pictures of things we like
206. 8:06but to communicate sometimes in very
207. 8:08essential ways and that you should be
208. 8:10able to rely on a company that provides
209. 8:12that critical of a service you shouldn't
210. 8:15be forced to choose between well
211. 8:17propaganda and having my private data
212. 8:20exploited or just don't use the service
213. 8:22he says this is no kind of decision at
214. 8:24all and that we should actually hold
215. 8:26Facebook accountable for violating our
216. 8:29privacy and putting us all in a kind of
217. 8:33risky situation that's really
218. 8:35fascinating thank you so much for this
219. 8:37great reporting I look forward to seeing
220. 8:38the full interview just reciate great to
221. 8:40see you too