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Ele Criou A VSL Que Fez 40 Milhões Em 8 Meses (Infoproduto) | João Tafuri - Segredos da Escala #175 — Transcript

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0:00You're competing with influencers, gossip channels, Fortune Tiger... all of that.
0:04If we don't come down a bit on attention... I gotta say sensational
0:07stuff to these people. Otherwise they'll always go to the World Cup guy,
0:11betting content, the influencers.
0:13So if I'm not sensational, if I don't build a storyline for them... they'll
0:17stay where they're already being sold to for way more money. It's way easier
0:21to watch that, and way more fun than mine.
0:23So we grab attention with what they want, and deliver what they need
0:26inside the product. And then I found something out.
0:29Brazilians are opportunistic and have this underdog mentality. Anything that
0:32comes from abroad is cooler than anything that
0:34comes from here. It's imported... It's imported.
0:36Everything. This is advanced, okay, guys? But I think that's one reason your offer scaled so
0:41much, man. João Vítor Tafuri.
0:43After years living through the ups and downs of launches, he decided to bet on
0:48Direct Response with VSLs.
0:50Today, he's behind one of the most scaled info product offers on the market.
0:54And, in this episode, he'll open up on how he built this funnel that's already
0:59made over 40 million reais... in 2026 alone.
1:02Man, for an offer to make 40 million... That's
1:04honestly impressive. Especially with info products.
1:07So, we have someone who does launches. Right. And this person
1:10wants to get into direct response. How do you think they
1:13should structure the product? How should they structure the VSL offer?
1:17What we’re about to talk about determines everything. Do you
1:21think this lead can be used for any and every side income VSL? Yes.
1:25That's really interesting. This thing's kinda like a universal lead.
1:28UGC is the best money-making format of 2026. Not sure how long it'll work.
1:32But these days, just do this. Take a validated one, grab five people from
1:36the team, and do it. It's brutal. Just do it.
1:38100% hit rate. Well... 99%. Since nothing's 100%. If you're
1:41watching us... and you wanna do an eight-figure VSL, multiple eight
1:45figures... I think this is a great path.
1:52Today I'm having a conversation with João Vítor Tafuri. João, guys, is Gustavo's
1:57partner, who was recently here on the podcast. And I invited João because he
2:01handles all the copy for their company. So João is the guy behind the VSLs, the
2:05creatives, the upsells, basically everything that's required to sell.
2:09In other words, while Gustavo's podcast showed you the moving pieces of their
2:13multi-million dollar operation, the goal of this episode is to show you how you
2:17can craft these individual components yourself, making things far more
2:20practical so you can take action and implement them directly into your own
2:24business. So he dropped a ton of golden nuggets for us today.
2:26For instance, how he goes about constructing highly persuasive VSL
2:30arguments, how he builds an offer that is truly irresistible, and also why he
2:34believes this right here is their main competitive advantage today, what's the
2:38absolute best ad format working for them right now in 2026, how to create upsells
2:43that boost your average order value and help you scale much further. And
2:46honestly, a whole lot more as well, alright?
2:49It was a super long podcast, the guy talked non-stop, but that's how we like
2:53it, so we can deliver top-tier content for you guys.
2:56And if you enjoy the podcast here at VTurb, make sure to smash that like
2:59button and subscribe to the channel to support us, alright? But in case you're
3:02new around here, the show is called Scaling Secrets, and on this podcast we
3:05bring in people who have successfully scaled their businesses, scaled their
3:09offers, so that you watching at home can walk away with one, two, maybe even three
3:12actionable insights—if the episode is good—to go ahead and apply to your
3:15business and scale it up too.
3:17Now, this podcast was brought to you by VTurb. VTurb is a video hosting platform
3:21specifically engineered to skyrocket your VSL conversion rates. So if you run a
3:24VSL, you will see a boost in conversions by hosting it right here on VTurb. And to
3:28prove it to you, I've linked a video right in the description titled "Seven
3:32Easy Ways to Increase Your VSL Conversions."
3:34If you run VSLs, man, click on that video link and execute everything in there
3:38today, alright? But enough talking, let's dive straight into the episode. Please
3:42welcome, João Tafuri. João, welcome to the VTurb podcast, brother. Appreciate it.
3:47Thanks for having me on the show, man. Really awesome. dude...
3:51I'm the one who should be thanking you for taking the time to show up here on
3:54the podcast. You flew all the way from Uberlândia, right?
3:57Uberlândia, Minas Gerais. It's a great place to live.
4:01Man, people from Minas are honestly my favorite people in Brazil. Hands down the
4:05friendliest. I mean, without a doubt, though there are always a few bad apples, right?
4:10There's always some. Always. Yeah, people who aren't
4:13that cool, but so far, every single experience I've had
4:15with people from Minas was Most people are super
4:17nice, that's for sure. Besides the cheese bread,
4:20we're pretty cool too. Really great people.
4:22And man... listen: you built the Singapore System, right?
4:28which became a massive, highly scaled offer back in 2026.
4:32Hit over 40 million in 2026 alone. How crazy is that, right? Pure craziness and...
4:39that is completely wild, isn't it?
4:41And I honestly think it's one of the largest offers, maybe even the single
4:45biggest VSL offer in Brazil for info products, at least. Maybe over in the
4:49nutra space someone hit higher numbers, but anyway, in the info product market
4:53that we operate in, or that you operate in, man, it's just an absurd achievement Yeah
4:59And since Gustavo came on the show and said, "Let's record a podcast," I was
5:02like, "I gotta record with you too, since you're his partner, right?" Yeah
5:05In theory, I don't know if it's already live, guys. I think Gustavo's episode
5:08should already be published.
5:10If it's out, it'll pop up on screen, because yours might go live before his, I
5:13don't know how the schedule goes, but let's see. let's wait
5:16and see. But make sure to check out his episode too, because
5:18Gustavo knows some really unique stuff. yeah, that guy knows how to break things down.
5:22He just sucks at playing FIFA. And bro, for an offer
5:25to pull in 40 million, that's just mind-blowing,
5:28especially in the info space... And back on Gustavo's episode, I kind of got
5:32a sense of how your operation works behind the scenes, how the processes are
5:36laid out, like, okay, this goes here, that goes there. Man, you've got
5:40creatives, you've got VSL option one, option two, a webinar,
5:43a sales team... Launches as well. Yeah, we talked about that.
5:48And then... But you're the copywriter, you're the guy actually putting in the
5:52work, sitting down and writing the actual words
5:54that generate the massive numbers. Exactly.
5:57And so I really wanted to discuss that with you, how you pulled off those
6:00results and how you went about building those assets
6:02But man... if we were to cover all of that, you know, dive into launches,
6:06breakdown every detail, we'd end up doing a 10-hour podcast, right? I mean, I might
6:11just bring you back for a part two down the line,
6:14who knows, depending on the audience feedback.
6:16Also depending if I feel like diving into launches, because I didn't want to focus
6:20on launches today. Yes. So I'd love for you to
6:23just walk me through how you actually built this
6:25little funnel right here to scale to such crazy heights, alright? And man, I
6:29think the very first question I could ask you, which is the exact note I wrote down
6:34so to kick off the podcast, is how did you go about coming up with this whole
6:37Singapore System concept, this offer that converted so incredibly well. Obviously,
6:42there were a ton of intermediate steps along the way.
6:45Starting from decision X to decision Y, and so on.
6:48but man, do you remember what was the absolute first thing you did, the
6:52initial action, that first step, the kickoff point to build this offer? And
6:56after that, I'll jump in with questions I find interesting, okay? If I catch
7:00something intriguing, and I probably will, I'll jump right in.
7:04so what did you do to build this offer that ended up scaling all the way to 40
7:08million? What's the very first phase of this whole process?
7:11Okay. it went down like this: look, our backstory is actually pretty hilarious.
7:14Since we came from the product launch world, we're always paying close
7:18attention to everything happening with our leads, right, especially regarding
7:22the audience we invite to participate in a sales event.
7:25And it was actually during a sales event, a launch event in fact, that I stumbled
7:30upon the primary pillar to construct a mechanism powerful enough to dominate
7:34that specific market, resonate with that audience, and so forth.
7:39Man, wait, I told you I was gonna interrupt you. Go ahead, it's fine. I told
7:42you I'd interrupt. You mentioned mechanism, right? For anyone who doesn't
7:46get what a mechanism is, can you give a quick high-level summary? Yeah,
7:49once we dive deeper into the offer section, I definitely want to expand on
7:52this. But a mechanism is essentially nothing more than, at least in my view, a
7:55brand new way of doing something that people are already familiar with. And so
7:59I assign a unique name to it, just to make it clear to people that this name
8:02encapsulates multiple moving parts. Instead of constantly repeating all those
8:05individual steps, I bundle them together into a single name engineered to fulfill
8:09a specific objective and function.
8:11So the Singapore System, we consider that to be a mechanism, because it's through
8:14this exact tool that the person reaches the ultimate end goal, which is the main
8:18promise we delivered in the pitch. So a mechanism is really nothing more than the
8:21framework through which someone achieves that outcome, tied to a named system so
8:25it stays top of mind for them. That way they instantly wrap their heads around
8:28how to get there. So— So back at the
8:30beginning, were you looking for a new mechanism
8:32then? Well, actually, no. How it all started was like this: we were preparing to run a
8:36product launch, but our launch revenue results were performing a bit below
8:39expectations with this specific expert and within this market niche, so we
8:42strongly believed we could push things much further.
8:45And then there was this specific lesson—and that's actually how we built
8:49this mechanism, because I realized through running launches that consumer
8:52behavior and buying habits were shifting
8:54drastically, and that changed everything for me.
8:57Up until that point, we didn't really discuss direct response marketing much
9:01inside the company, or VSLs for that matter, even though my expert had brought
9:05up some concepts around it way back in the day, and we had actually tested a few
9:09campaigns previously that worked decently well.
9:11But it was specifically during a launch that I noticed something crucial—which
9:15ultimately led us to the Singapore System—I realized it during a live lesson
9:19we held, which was the second lesson of the launch series, where we taught people
9:23a concept called the unconscious desire trick, which was actually a framework we
9:27used to explain how to craft winning offers.
9:29Our expert sells on Shopee, right, teaching people how to generate income on
9:33the app, how to create high-converting offers on Shopee that sell like crazy,
9:36and that specific class was always insanely engaging, like, people in the
9:40live chat were losing their minds. That's the great thing about launches: you get
9:43real-time feedback on viewer retention and engagement. A direct
9:46response guy, he has his stats and retention charts, but he doesn't
9:49truly know what's going on inside the customer's mind in real time. And back
9:52then in launches, the beauty was that we started noticing we could see live
9:56whether something was truly hitting the mark or not. Because honestly, how many
9:59VSLs do we know that boast huge retention rates—in fact, plenty of copywriters sell
10:03VSL templates promising sky-high retention—when in reality, all we
10:05actually care about is raw conversion rates.
10:08sure, plenty of people are watching, but if it doesn't convert into cash, I'd much
10:11rather have fewer people watch and walk away making way more money at the end of
10:14the day. And we started realizing that we could actually control what was happening
10:17during that retention period. And this class was an absolute banger, because,
10:20like, peak live viewer counts happened right on the second lesson, which is
10:23totally unusual in the launch space where day
10:25one usually peaks. That day was just incredible.
10:27And during that session, we were teaching the desire trick, basically teaching
10:30people how to shift their mindset. So we took our audience, which was men and
10:33women aged 30-plus, actually 35-plus, and broke
10:36down this whole psychological concept for them.
10:38And people were going crazy. My expert was breaking down the neocortex, human
10:42buying psychology, and deep persuasion principles.
10:44So it was an absolute powerhouse of a lesson.
10:47But then came a day when a guy named Rodolfo left a comment saying: "Damn,
10:50this was hands down the most incredible class I've ever watched in my entire
10:54life, but it's such a shame I'll never actually be able to execute what you just
10:57explained." That exact moment, I said to myself: "We're screwed,
11:01there's no point in delivering a mind-blowing lesson if I don't... I mean,
11:04that's when I finally began to realize we weren't converting as effectively as we
11:07wanted to, simply because this guy suffered from a massive internal block
11:10about whether he was actually capable of pulling
11:12it off or not. He had an internal block, thinking
11:14he wasn't capable. Spot on. And when you shift over to direct response, you notice that this
11:17mental block is heavily addressed there, whereas back in product launches, not so
11:20much. Launches are more focused on, "Man, I need to deliver a stellar lesson with
11:24insane retention, giving the prospect a massive reason to stick around, love the
11:27content, and buy access to the method just to execute it."
11:29And dude, that was the first time I faced something beyond just the method or the
11:33promise. It's the main thing about how capable the person feels they are.
11:37Right after that, I went straight to my expert—Guilherme, you know... who I
11:41constantly brainstorm with, he's and an incredible guy, super fun to bounce ideas
11:45off of, really crazy creative and very sharp, you know? and so...
11:49I told him straight up: "Look... we are never going to sell through standard
11:53launches again, and we won't hit the massive revenue goals we're shooting for
11:56if we keep selling basic education."
12:00So we need to find a way—I don't know what it is yet—to shift slightly away
12:03from education, making education take more of a backseat role in the whole
12:07process, and we need to sell something far more plug-and-play to this guy,
12:10something he can execute with absolute clarity, easier, with much lower
12:14execution risk, so to speak." Then he goes: "Man, but what do you have in
12:17mind?" I said: "Look, this desire trick, we could potentially plug in an AI agent.
12:22so that we can completely flip the script, man, and make the customer
12:25realize that he'll literally just click a button and everything is going to be
12:28handled for him." And he was like: "Man, I think that could work, should we build
12:32it?" I said: "Let's do it." So we built it.
12:34And then Black Friday rolled around—I can't even recall which year that Black
12:36Friday was—when we decided to test this out. It wasn't the Singapore System yet,
12:39but we pivoted our approach during a Black Friday launch.
12:41We delivered the exact same lesson, except at the end we turned around and
12:45said: "Guys, have you noticed that lesson one doesn't have a replay? It's crucial
12:49for you to be here to digest everything we covered in lesson one, and today's
12:52session won't have a replay either. But why are we doing this? Because now,
12:56everything I taught you here, I know for a fact you loved it, you're blowing up
13:00the chat telling me so, but it can get even better than this.
13:02Nobody here should have to grind for the 10 years I spent studying just to reach
13:06these conclusions and implement them in my Shopee business, because I've built a
13:10turnkey system, a setup where you simply click and it executes automatically for
13:13whatever product you select. So all you have to do is pick your product.
13:17This entire engine that drives massive sales, we're going to hand it to you
13:20completely done-for-you." And man, I'm telling you, if you combined the revenue
13:24of the previous three launches before that one, it wouldn't even come close to
13:27what we pulled in on that single day of sales. Because people went into full
13:31melt-down mode, like: "My God, I just click a button and it handles
13:34everything." Which hits right on a major gap we discovered in the digital
13:37marketing space— Total brain melt, man. Cool, right? Making brains melt is next level.
13:41Like, yeah, I say that because someone commented—and that's the cool thing about
13:44launches—this guy commented: "I'm having a meltdown." So I was like: "Holy shit,
13:48meltdown, I love that." That was the exact emotional reaction we were aiming
13:51for.The exact same thing happened to Caio yesterday during FIFA. So man...
13:56and hold on, can I mention this, Caio?
13:58I'm gonna tell the truth, okay? Guys, let me just add a quick side note here,
14:01alright? Yeah, go ahead. Look, in Gustavo's previous
14:04podcast or maybe in the next one, whatever, I said I
14:06was gonna play FIFA against Caio. Who took the win? Yours truly.
14:10Obviously, right? But to be fair, he's a solid player— He's good, he's
14:14really good. He won like two matches against me. I won like, he claimed I won
14:18three, but I'm pretty sure I won four. But it's all good, right? Except he
14:21turned to me and said: "Man, your defense is absolutely insane."
14:25So I'm not just good, I'm absolute elite status, alright?
14:29But anyway, keep going. You were doing that live stream with Carlos, I
14:31actually want to show you who's truly elite today, but that's just a side detail. Oh snap!
14:35Insanely good or insanely terrible, right? We'll see, let's see.
14:38But anyway, so we hosted that live stream, man, and hit a massive revenue
14:41peak, so I turned to Cirilo and said: "Bro, we just stumbled upon a goldmine
14:44that's going to print money for us, because moving forward it's no longer
14:47about which sales event we're going to run, it's all about how we optimize this
14:50offer and product to actually deliver on that
14:52promise of clicking a button and having it all done."
14:54And that's when I started diving deep into study mode. DR was starting to pick
14:57up traction inside our company too... early on, and then we progressively refined it.
15:02We'll loop back to that later, specifically how you scaled DR step by
15:05step, right? You even mentioned it didn't start with the offer right away— ...it
15:08started with creatives first, and only then came the actual offer.
15:11so what happened? at that initial stage, we had AI integrated, but we didn’t have
15:15the Singapore System framework yet. However, we uncovered a core concept that
15:18we like to call the push-button slot machine theory. The more you can position
15:22your solution in any niche today as something where the user simply clicks
15:25and gets an instant outcome, the more you dominate.
15:28Obviously, in the info product space that's much harder to execute because
15:31you're ultimately selling education, but man, as close as we can possibly get to
15:34that seamless experience, that's the ultimate goal. Naturally, it's not going
15:37to be some magic button to withdraw money, but to the extent where the
15:40customer just clicks and gets 80% of the heavy lifting done automatically, they
15:44only have to manually learn the remaining 20%. That's precisely why we bundle the
15:47course with it. It's not sold without the course;
15:49the training is right there to cover all the
15:51theoretical foundations they'll inevitably need at some point. But what
15:54we heavily highlight, obviously, is the satisfying part where you click and
15:58results happen automatically. Yet up to that point, our VSL didn't feature any of
16:01this—no AI angles, nothing. And the Singapore System didn't even exist yet.
16:04Later on, we weighed the possibilities and said: "Man, let's integrate this AI feature."
16:08And it still wasn't called the Singapore System. So we started scaling up—this VSL
16:12was already scaling nicely, hitting over 100k a day before we even added that element.
16:16And we started scaling further with new creatives, and then we upgraded the VSL
16:19by adding the AI component—my expert actually built that out, placing the AI
16:22agent right inside the mechanism. And we left it at that for a while. So the core
16:25VSL remained identical, but in the offer stack, we heavily emphasized that AI was
16:28doing the heavy lifting, though it was still somewhat poorly explained.
16:31Alright, that improved the VSL conversion rate, allowing us to push the scale even
16:35higher past the 100k daily mark. But to break through 200k and scale beyond 200k
16:39a day, we had to properly structure these core mechanism concepts. And this just
16:43proves that, man, simply shifting our understanding of the target audience and
16:46their evolving buying habits completely transformed our entire business.
16:50The product launches started firing on all cylinders because we began selling
16:52this turnkey system. It didn't have the official name yet, but it was positioned
16:55as AI where you click and everything gets built for you. And that was the moment I
16:58said: "Man, from here on out we need to make Evergreen scale way harder, because
17:01we know we've validated a winning angle."
17:03And he just told me: "write a VSL yourself from scratch, start to finish,
17:05because it's really going to convert. I'm confident you'll find a way better way to
17:09package this whole concept."
17:10And that's when the Singapore System was born. So the Singapore System, in
17:13essence, came directly from that guy who commented on our live stream, which made
17:16us realize: "Man, buying habits have shifted, so I need to build a mechanism—"
17:19and then I went into full research mode.
17:21The sheer intensity completely warped my perception of time, man. I went back to
17:25re-study my core copy fundamentals from the ground up, reviewed VTurb case
17:28studies, studied Stefan Georgi—who is literally the guy whose frameworks I
17:32follow to the letter—and adapted a few of his processes specifically for our business setup.
17:36You didn't take Derek's program, right? No, I never took
17:38it. Then I started meeting industry players, but beyond
17:41networking, I got obsessed with analyzing winning copy. So I started deconstructing
17:44copy from top players online, because I realized there were countless writing
17:47styles, but I wanted to master the underlying mechanics behind them. And
17:50alongside that, I analyzed their VTurb data.
17:52and I started uncovering critical concepts that, when combined with
17:55Stefan's RMBC method, fundamentally altered how I view copy as a whole, which
17:59ultimately comes down to systematizing the process.
18:02So everyone is going to have their own unique framework for writing, but I
18:06really believe what was missing in the digital marketing space for the launch crowd,
18:11was deep expertise around offer creation. And the
18:13DR crowd masters offer creation like nobody else.
18:15Not just about making a decent offer, but the actual science of engineering a
18:18winning offer. So I started obsessively devouring everything on the topic. Like,
18:22"Man, I'll master this inside out—mechanisms, offer architecture,
18:25psychology." Because I had stumbled onto something that worked, now I needed to
18:28understand why it worked, what drove conversions, so I could engineer a killer VSL.
18:32And that's exactly how the system was born. We officially rolled it out because
18:37we wanted to break out of that 100k to 130k daily ceiling and push past 200k a
18:41day, because we realized—after testing dozens of variables—that if we didn't
18:45overhaul the core VSL and dramatically lift its conversion rate, we'd never hit
18:49the massive scale we were targeting.
18:51So I said: "Man, I'm going to roll up my sleeves and write a brand new piece of
18:55copy myself— ...one that synthesizes every single insight we gathered over
18:59this entire period, compiling all the data from non-buyers, all the launch
19:03buyers, and blend it all together into a killer master script." And that very
19:07first draft of the Singapore System— ...to this day, it's still that exact
19:11same baseline version running right now.
19:14We tweaked a few elements in the offer stack, but structurally it's the exact
19:17same copy scaling today. Obviously, we rotate leads
19:20and angles, right? But the performance jump was
19:22absolute night and day. And... Hold on a sec, let me ask you a quick question. Go for it.
19:27so, from what I'm kind of gathering here... the whole context of how
19:32you actually crafted this super-scaled VSL, right,
19:36came about because a guy told you: "Man, I even have a major internal objection
19:40right here, and I just don't really feel like I'm capable of pulling this off myself.
19:45So man, this class is awesome, it definitely works for others, no doubt
19:49about it. But it just won't work for me. I have
19:51this limiting belief that I can't execute it."
19:54And right then you realized: "Holy crap, I need to build something that's
19:57ridiculously easy to execute." yeah.
19:59So you took that concept of creating an effortless implementation process,
20:03combined it with that previously validated VSL... which was
20:07originally written by your expert, so your expert wrote that initial VSL version, right?
20:12yes, the old version was all him.
20:15And then you combined... like all that kind of idea of tweaking the whole
20:19actual deliverable to... I mean, to basically remove the execution friction, right?
20:25Plus... his original VSL... to then actually create this brand new VSL that
20:29you kind of ended up calling the Singapore System. Is that how it all went
20:34down? No. Actually, it went like this: the old VSL relied on completely different
20:38mechanisms and structural angles, so I wiped the slate clean and scrapped it
20:41entirely. When we first introduced the AI element, we jammed it into the offer
20:45section, basically pitching: "Hey, this part is going to be handled for you
20:49automatically, like certain components of the system engine we sell, one of the
20:52primary pillars being the AI tool."
20:55And sure, that bumped up the offer conversion slightly, but the margin
20:58improvement was still pretty marginal—you know, conversion only ticked up a
21:01fraction, whereas we needed a massive jump to unlock true scale, even though it
21:04helped us cross a few higher revenue milestones. So what I actually did was
21:07completely re-engineer the entire script from scratch.
21:09Because the original messaging was super disjointed. And the biggest challenge
21:13writing VSLs for people coming from the launch world is organizing all narrative
21:16elements—aligning the lead structure, unique mechanisms, offer stack, and
21:20psychological triggers. So I said: "Man, since I'm taking a gamble and rebuilding
21:24this VSL from scratch, I'll run a high-stakes
21:26test," and I told my expert and Gustavo straight up.
21:29It's all or nothing. Either I'm going to hit an absolute home run because my gut
21:32feeling is razor-sharp and I'm going to lock myself in a room for a whole month
21:36just obsessing over this, or I'm going to fail miserably. And if I fail miserably,
21:40what's my backup plan? I'll just fall back on his
21:42original control script that's already running and
21:45try to patch it up a bit. But I felt like patching it would require so many
21:48band-aids that I said: "Man, it's way better to write a fresh one from
21:52scratch." Coming from a long launch background, I have a few specific nuances
21:55in how I view copy; there are certain elements I structure differently. Take
21:59storytelling, for example. Our story angle in the VSL doesn't follow a
22:03standard hero's journey framework at all
22:05Why? Because I understood—since I did so many launches telling stories and getting
22:10feedback, I knew whether the story was told well or not. Even in our VSL, I
22:13mean, I'm not sure, you can correct me on traditional methods, but I always saw
22:18that it was lead, story, background history. I don't tell the guy's backstory.
22:22I do the lead, the problem's mechanism, then I copy this thing called
22:26opportunity, then I mechanize the solution. Within the solution, I start
22:29telling a story of discovery about what we're talking about initially—before I've
22:33even revealed the mechanism. But it's a completely intentional story; it's not
22:37about what the guy's life was like or wasn't. It was a story about how he
22:41serves as the bridge to give you what he's talking about.
22:44And from that, I said: "Man, I have several theories about what I think it
22:47should be, so I need to eliminate," because his was a standard script, right?
22:51Background history, mechanisms, offer, close, and
22:53so on. I said: "Man, I want to shake things up.
22:55Either I'll hit the mark or I'll miss, and that's fine. If I miss, I'll just
22:59take what's working and keep going." And in our case, it crushed it... Then I
23:03said: "Man, I think if I were to explain this to someone, I know a few mechanisms
23:08I used in the VSL—the way it was written—that came from launches plus all
23:11the content I saw from a lot of people here, which allowed me to reach this VSL formula.
23:16I don't know if, man, I had a hypothesis that this was good. But I
23:20said: "Man, did it work just because it was ours?" Then, when we started getting
23:24mentees—we didn't even offer mentorship, but I helped out—they started getting
23:28results. They started tweaking this, and it brought even better results for the
23:32VSL and improved backend products too. Uh-huh.
23:34Because they could connect better with what was said upfront, right? So
23:39when we opened our individual mentorship to a few selected people, man, this order
23:44worked so well. Because, honestly, I don't like
23:46writing in blocks; I write like a spiral in my head.
23:49Like, I mix in a bit of story—not a rigid story block—I need to drop in at various
23:53moments. In fact, one mentee said it sounded a bit like a Bible—I don't know
23:57much about it—he was like: "Man, I think... Yeah, so I said like: "Damn,
24:01I'm gonna build a mechanism around that. The Biblical VSL. Interesting. And like, he said:
24:06"Man, because... at least he explained to me—the Bible
24:09told one story, looped back to another, all to guide a person in a much better
24:12way." And we used to do that a lot in launches. Erico, right, who did it and it
24:16was super cool, taught CPLs in structured blocks. And I started realizing that it
24:20was—yeah, it was becoming bad for us.
24:23When I reached the story block—sure, a good story well told gets great
24:26retention—but I said: "Man, even so, when I hit the story block, it feels like the
24:30energy drops. What if I blend the story with all the context before it? I'll tell
24:34fragments of the story alongside things prior, making a big mix out of it." And
24:38man, launches started getting better, so I brought that to the VSL as well. nice, dude.
24:44well, I'm gonna ask you in a bit so we can outline a VSL structure together, right?
24:50Because I think that's super interesting for the folks at home, like,
24:54anyway, yeah, to understand what this formula actually translates to in
24:59real life, you know? But man,
25:02So like, you started from a point... dude, I'm gonna ask you a bunch of things
25:07about that VSL, right? About that offer, and so on. I'm definitely going to ask.
25:11So you started from a point where you already had a validated VSL.
25:16and that guy over there, Cirilo, right, your expert, was already running
25:20it, and it was already working.
25:22And then you used that entire context to create this new one. Which you then named
25:26the Singapore System, and I'll ask you why you gave it that name too. Yeah, and it's cool to
25:31explain why, really cool. But man, for the
25:33people who don't... Like, imagine there's a guy
25:35running launches. And he wants to break into direct response.
25:39But he doesn't have that validated VSL. Like, to him, whatever, nobody has ever
25:44scaled a VSL for him before. alright.
25:47so dude, how do you think he should actually structure that product,
25:52I mean, that VSL offer, you get it?
25:55Because I feel that was the very first step you took... I mean, in the whole
25:59Singapore System VSL thing, right?
26:01Exactly. I'll even tell you, this is the main thing—it dictates everything, what
26:06we're going to talk about now, which is offer construction... This is what
26:10made it happen, and by building a good offer, I realized that the VSL we had
26:14before, even though it scaled, was sustained entirely by our creatives.
26:19And I said: "I can't guarantee I'll hit the mark every single time." We started
26:23hitting creatives with 4.5%, 5% CTR, which drove the CPC way down, giving us
26:26massive volume. But the truth is, the VSL conversion was never actually good.
26:31we looked at it and said: "Man, we're in a position here where we're making a lot,
26:35but any tiny shift here will crash it, it's way too low. It's a margin that's
26:39decent, cool, 1.7, 1.8 roas, but I feel if this drops, the math stops adding up.
26:44If the creatives lose that CTR—which is normal, 4.5%, 5% is really high, it's not
26:48common to keep hitting that consistently.
26:51When they start fatiguing, it'll impact day-to-day operations, you know? So when
26:55I went to build the offer... I honestly started understanding that,
26:59like, man, the launch crowd, especially, doesn't really know what an offer is at
27:03all. We didn't know either. So sort of everything I say right here about
27:06launches, I want to make clear to everyone, because we didn't know either.
27:10Man, it was five years launching dozens of people. That's crazy.
27:14Dozens of people... I mean, if I could go back, I basically would've
27:17generated way more revenue doing the exact same thing, pretty much just
27:21changing the offer, right? And I actually did that with one of the last experts we
27:25launched before focusing on our income opportunity niche—I had created an offer
27:29for this guy where I said: "Man, this is gonna be great," and it sold like crazy.
27:33Except I didn't have the mindset yet of why it sold so much. Like, it was an
27:37expert where we did one last launch, super cool. And I said: "Man, this right
27:41here holds everyone back: the offer," because the offer was always sold to us a certain way.
27:46And everyone forgot, actually, because Erico Rocha used to say: "First you sell
27:51an idea, then you deliver that idea.
27:54You only deliver if it actually sells. If you build a logical framework that people
27:58literally want to buy, after that happens, you just assemble the product.
28:01And he said that in the early days; doing seed launches was pretty much like
28:05that. You had an offer, a core idea you wanted to pass to the person to make them
28:09believe in it, and they'd buy. Wow, now that
28:11they bought, it's validated, I need to deliver.
28:14I'm not gonna waste time building a product before validating if it actually
28:18transforms lives and if people really want it. And then I traced back and said:
28:22"Man, we lost our way over time because the launch crowd is way too focused on
28:26the technical side. How do I warm up leads? How do I run traffic?
28:29How do I build the CPL? How do I build the product itself?" And they forget the
28:33core element, which is the offer.
28:35And when I entered the direct response market, I learned a lot from Stefan
28:40Georg, umm— Who has a podcast on VTurb, guys! It'll pop up right on the screen. It was the
28:44first podcast we recorded at VTurb. I actually watched
28:46that podcast, but I learned a ton from AI, I won't lie to
28:49you. So I said, another tip, I didn't keep, the intensity thing warped time, I
28:52didn't jump from shiny object to shiny object. I had one month to make a killer
28:56VSL. Of course, I had years of copy knowledge, having done affiliate work
29:00too, so I had a grasp of VSLs, but I said, I remember a guy I really like, who
29:04I know João Campos likes too, I'll go with him, which is Stefan Georgi.
29:09And then I like didn't look at any other method at all. I went with his, broke
29:13down everything, and literally realized something. The whole unique mechanism of
29:17the problem and the solution completely changed how I look at offers, you know?
29:21And... that's why I kind of say... later I actually even found out
29:26Hormozi talks like a bit about this regarding offers, right? But in my head
29:30back then... I basically reached a conclusion, of course using AI and lots
29:35of resources, that there's a whole simplified equation for an offer:
29:39opportunity minus risk, you know? No doubt.
29:42Get it? Honestly, Hormozi has a thing with, like, I mean, multiplications
29:46divided by effort and whatever, but I basically came up with this equation at
29:49the time. Now I pretty much discovered—I just even studied him a bit, found it
29:53super interesting, right?
29:55Offer equals opportunity minus risk. So the more you increase the opportunity and
29:59lower the risk, the more it becomes a game of perceived value. This is where I
30:03joke—I even made social media content about it—that the offer is not the
30:06product. Why do I say this? To insiders, many might think it's obvious, but for a
30:10long time in launches, it was all about the product, because how was an offer
30:14made back then in launches?
30:16It's literally deliverables, bonuses for the first buyers, bonuses for the top 10
30:20to actually create a kind of sales rush right at launch opening. It was how
30:24you—what you're basically going to deliver, how many video hours. We
30:27launched many lawyer courses and they asked a lot about the whole syllabus,
30:31runtime, and the actual product was considered the main value, you know?
30:36Except that, as people actually kept asking about the product, we thought the
30:40secret was the product... So instead of thinking about how to craft a
30:43persuasive offer around whatever we wanted, we just kept saying: "If he wants
30:47this, let's keep saying it has this, which is what he wants." That worked for
30:51a while, but then things evolve, ways of thinking change, consumer habits shift,
30:55and that's no longer enough. So we were always focused
30:58on that. I even made a video saying the offer isn't the
31:01product; the offer is perception. I wanted to find a good name so people
31:04would understand that now, in life, when you start doing things this way, you want
31:08to name everything. Everything becomes a mechanism,
31:10because it seems people digest it easier, right?
31:13So an offer is literally nothing more, in my mind, than perception. And perception
31:17is actually how much this person kind of believes they can reach that result
31:21through the whole path you're describing. And what I basically told X is the
31:24following: I don't know how we're going to deliver a killer product that works
31:28instantly, but I want to validate if I sell this, whether the guy wants it, you know?
31:33And then I started understanding: man, I'm ramping up the opportunity, which is
31:37like a new thing, something different from what you're used to seeing,
31:41something legit, right, not a scam, not a gimmick—which, of course, we use AI to
31:46give context to, so the person can imagine it's genuinely possible, because
31:50with AI now, everything feels possible to people—and low risk.
31:54And when I say low risk, some people get confused, thinking it's about financial
31:57risk, like spending little money, but no—that's
31:59part of it, but that's not even the main thing.
32:01It's basically execution risk, which goes back to that whole guy who literally
32:05commented on my launch stream, right?
32:07What matters to this guy is kind of believing he can actually pull it off.
32:11Here's another insight: in launches, we always run surveys, but few people
32:15actually read them, you know? Honestly, we barely read them ourselves.
32:20When I went to write the VSL, I pulled them all. I had over, damn, tens of
32:24thousands of survey responses, you get it?
32:28And there were so many people talking about genuinely not having time. My
32:31target audience is literally the guy who works all day... comes home at night,
32:35and that's all he has. He has to take care of his kid, comes home exhausted,
32:39and still has to execute something. I started blending things together and
32:42said: "Man, to lower his risk, first, I won't sell him on quitting his job."
32:47I can't sell that. Man, burning the bridge is for very few. I can't sell that
32:50to the guy. And later I discovered that, damn, there are many copy frameworks that
32:54touch on this, but that was the structure. I said: "Man, looking at this
32:57survey here, I need to deliver something to this guy that isn't just
33:01point-and-click magic, but where he consistently needs very little time. So
33:04he moves forward fast with minimal time." I said: "Alright."
33:08So 30 minutes a day is all he needs to click here, set up his store daily,
33:11executing every single day. I started hammering that point. You don't have to
33:15quit your job, because a lot of income opportunity sellers pitch like: "You're
33:19gonna make money, you're gonna leave your boss, your employer, quit your job, make
33:22money like you've never seen." I took an approach like: "Man, let me embrace this
33:26guy, let me calm his anxieties down."
33:28so dude, you have your everyday life... and you're just going to add a
33:32new habit into your routine, which is literally
33:35clicking inside the system, you get it?
33:38And then—when I told this story to myself during the briefing phase, during that
33:41real initial blueprinting, I thought: "Man, this story makes complete sense at
33:45all. I think he can actually realize that this time it'll work for him."
33:49At the same time, I can take the blame off his shoulders. Like: man, it's never
33:52your fault, the fault lies with the system.
33:54So we're always building a good system that works on your behalf—since you only
33:58have 30 minutes, I can't rely on whether you'll execute or not. You just need to
34:01know how to read and write. The system handles the rest. So we're constantly
34:05refining the system—and we genuinely do—to serve you in the absolute best
34:08way." So I started understanding that an offer is really nothing more than a
34:11massive opportunity for the guy. When would that
34:14ever exist in the info product space otherwise?
34:16I want the guy to picture this. Man, in the past, you really had to do heavy
34:19manual labor. Today, you don't need to. Because of what we created through
34:23artificial intelligence, we figured out and discovered a way to do it, and we set
34:27it up for you. So it's a huge opportunity with nearly zero risk.
34:31It doesn't depend on your sharp skills, your IQ, or your intelligence—which I
34:34already knew was a kind of major objection of his coming from launches.
34:38And that's basically the biggest issue in digital marketing. People want
34:42to spend very little time thinking about the offer because they're overly attached
34:46to the product. I think the worst flaw in launches is being attached to the
34:49product, you know? And people in the market still think that doing this is selling a lie.
34:54Here's what happens:
34:56Lying is literally selling something and failing to deliver that something. So the
35:00super resistant crowd actually keeps saying: "Man, if I don't focus on the
35:04whole product, I'm kind of creating a lie." That's not the issue at all. The
35:07issue is that you know a better offer exists for this guy. The hustle now is
35:10delivering that offer to him, you know? Look at Mounjaro.
35:14Before Mounjaro existed, many people pitched weight loss in a completely
35:17different way. It wasn't about injections; it was about taking pills, doing this or that.
35:22Now that it's been created—and that's why Mounjaro blew up—everyone already knew a
35:26validated offer existed for it, but nobody had a product that delivered
35:29exactly what was needed. When that product arrived, the business exploded,
35:33it blew up. So the game is always about creating that offer. I went to my expert
35:37and said: "We're going to—" I hired an AI guy.
35:39Honestly, man, I run an info product company where margins are pretty much
35:43usually solid. I mean, I said: "I don't give a damn about the margin. I want
35:47something we'll just spend money to build, something that really works,
35:50because I know it'll come back to us through our backend funnel, launches, and
35:54ascensions—this guy buys now and buys later, right?" So we spent real money to build it.
35:58Our AI is incredibly powerful—humbly speaking, it was built so well because
36:02people kept complaining about so many things, and I said:
36:05Remember when I said... the offer isn't about whether you execute or not,
36:10I'm going to upgrade the system so you can always execute seamlessly, and we
36:14keep upgrading it. And dude, another thing, support.
36:17We have 10 to 12 people on support. Meaning, it's not that thing where I'm
36:21going to make millions with a tiny team. No, it's a real business. It became a
36:24proper business. And in a business, you have to deliver what you promise.
36:28So we started doing everything possible to deliver. Obviously, some people
36:32complain, some can't log in, some struggle to navigate, some will complain
36:35about various things. That's normal; it's massive scale with so many students
36:38joining daily. But whatever is in our power, we deliver.
36:42So the launch marketer doesn't need to lose his edge. He needs to think about
36:45the offer first, then focus on the product, making sure the delivery is
36:48top-notch—but now on a validated concept. We didn't do this initially; I built a
36:52custom GPT agent first. We had to validate and
36:54deliver, obviously. It worked, but I said: "GPT is
36:57terrible here, he has to subscribe."
36:59"He gets confused in the GPT dashboard, so I want to build our own platform."
37:03Even thinking about how—if we turn this into a SaaS down the road—we could bring
37:06us into profit while building a recurring revenue stream or selling it to Shopee or
37:10another company that wants that user base with this system. Anyway, we started
37:14seeing endless possibilities, but always focused on improving that initial offer
37:17we built from day one. That's why we were able to scale so heavily, because we
37:21started getting real testimonials.
37:23All of our social proof consists of real testimonials—because we also discovered
37:27that a lot of people fake their testimonials, right?
37:30Anyway, I won't get into that, but we said: Man, I told my expert:
37:34"I want real results, because through actual real results, we'll literally
37:38discover new things to improve. Otherwise, if we kind of fake
37:41testimonials, I'll just be guessing in my head when I basically need to understand
37:45the customer, you know?" So now we have a whole weekly workflow dedicated to
37:49collecting new testimonials based on actual results and how easy it is to use the system.
37:54So we gather testimonials about everything, not just results. That's
37:57another insight. We build different sequences—trust testimonials, for
38:00instance—because what's the biggest issue in the income opportunity market?
38:03Getting scammed. So we have testimonials literally focused on the guy sharing how
38:07much he trusted the expert. It's not about the system; it's not about the
38:11whole financial win. It's: "Man, I actually trusted him, and everything
38:15promised was delivered." The adjacent training is kind of incredible, and the
38:19core product is amazing. "I'm still taking steps, trying, improving,
38:22learning, but I know I didn't get scammed."
38:24So we leverage that too. Testimonials aren't just about the ultimate
38:28transformation. They're also about building trust along the journey. And in
38:31launches, we use that heavily, especially during the pitch—the trust building
38:35phase. Just pure trust testimonials.
38:37Hey, sorry to interrupt the podcast here. I just wanted to tell you that if you run
38:41a VSL, I put together a super simple video called
38:44"Seven Easy Ways to Boost Your VSL Conversions."
38:47That video is the very first link in the description below. And if you watch it,
38:51man, you'll get a step-by-step walkthrough on how to scale your VSL
38:54conversions, make more profit, and boost revenue without spending an extra dime on
38:58traffic or changing a single line of copy—just optimizing your VSL. So if you
39:02have a VSL running, I highly recommend checking out the video in the description
39:06and applying it right away; you won't regret it. But now, back to the podcast.
39:10hold on, let me cut in for a second. By the way, can I interrupt you? Yeah, of course!
39:14You're the boss here, man. Are you crazy? Yeah,
39:17technically this is my podcast, right? Yeah.
39:19As far as I remember here, it's a bit of Will and a bit of me, right Will?
39:23man, let me ask you a quick question. So here's
39:27what I got from what you were saying, right?
39:31You covered a lot of ground, and I took some notes here.
39:34But... Sorry if I'm talking way too much as well, man! No way,
39:37that's literally your job! The opposite would be the problem.
39:40It's not saying enough. Yeah, saying too little is rough. Yeah, then
39:42you'd be calling me out! Don't worry about talking too much, man, you're
39:45here for that. That's why I paid for your hotel and your lunch, right?
39:48Ah, by the way, the VTurb experience—let me drop a quick plug, literally put it
39:52right on screen for me. The VTurb experience is totally one of the coolest
39:56experiences I've had in a long time. Man, you guys genuinely care about people here
40:00in a whole unique way. So yeah, I highly recommend it.
40:03And I don't even take a percentage cut of your revenue, man. Just imagine if I did!
40:08You're like a father figure. You'd be arriving in a private jet.
40:11You're a true father figure to us. Yeah, man, for real.
40:13So, from what I understood, okay? Uh-huh. What
40:16did you tell me here? Let me try to break it down.
40:19Perfect. I'm just gonna ask you a question based on this whole thing I understood to make
40:23it crystal clear for the folks at home, you know? Sounds good. Man...
40:29so the launch market didn't educate... like, didn't educate people to
40:33build what we call in direct response an irresistible offer, right?
40:37So while people over there focus heavily on the product—"Oh, I'm gonna build the
40:41absolute best product," obsessing over it—
40:43"Oh, I'll have my top-tier product here with every single module completely
40:47packed, it's gonna be the best product ever." Man, that's not necessarily what
40:51the person wants! The customer doesn't want a 500-hour course; they want actual
40:55results. They want to achieve that result as fast as possible with the absolute
40:58minimum effort required. When that happens, right,
41:01their perceived value goes through the roof.
41:03And that's why they're willing to pay a much higher price point. That's why
41:06liposuction costs way more than a gym membership. Because it requires zero
41:09effort compared to the gym and gives instant results. alright.
41:14so look, man, with that in mind, you basically realized right then that an
41:19offer comes down to opportunity minus risk.
41:23And man, essentially you mentioned Hormozi too, who has his whole offer
41:27equation over there, and it's basically the exact same concept—where his equation
41:31goes like: value equals how much it solves the core
41:34desire. Then— Exactly. Sacrifice, effort, and all
41:36those factors underneath. yeah, that's the bottom
41:39half of the fraction. The top half is like, how much
41:41does this fulfill the dream outcome? And then how believable is it? So, man, if
41:45I'm hiring a doctor who graduated yesterday, it's worth a dollar. If I hire
41:49a surgeon with 50 years of experience, it's worth a hundred dollars.
41:53And then below that in the equation the part you want to decrease is the time
41:57delay for the result. So the faster it is, the less time it takes, the better.
42:01That's why pushing a button, I mean, getting an instant result, is so good.
42:04And the less effort required, the better, because people don't want to work hard.
42:09Which is pretty much what you said, right? Like, the opportunity — what
42:13you're going to gain, minus the risk, how long it's going to take, and all that,
42:18you know? But there are other factors we can plug in here too on both sides: the
42:22opportunity side and the risk side.
42:25So, one thing you mentioned about risk is the whole testimonial thing. For example,
42:29even though it's not a specific element of the offer itself that you're going to
42:33package inside, logically speaking, having more testimonials is definitely
42:37something that increases the perceived value of your offer. Exactly.
42:40That's why those doctors, let's say, Anitta's doctor, Neymar's doctor and
42:44other celebrity's doctor— they carry that credibility because of the social proof,
42:48because of that famous person's testimonial. Absolutely. Man, but one
42:52thing I really want to try to get across to the people watching at
42:56home is that, well, we have this whole theoretical side of things, right?
43:01In short, for everyone at home: just make something great, okay? I mean, guys, with
43:06all due respect, but stop being lazy and create a product that delivers what
43:10people want as fast as possible, with the lowest possible effort. If you can't do
43:14exactly that, try to get as close to it as you can. Like, "Oh, I can't make the
43:19guy lose weight in a millisecond." That's fine, bro. Just try to make him lose it
43:23in thirty days, alright? Just go as far as you can.
43:26It doesn't need to be that exact specific thing.
43:28Yeah... I mean, ideally, you know, if someone says, "Oh, I'm gonna launch a new
43:33weight loss product. What would sell more than Mounjaro?" Well, dude, that would be
43:38if I lose exactly what I want, right? Like, let's say I want to lose sixty
43:42pounds, and it makes me lose exactly sixty pounds instantly.
43:47and the effort is just me thinking, "I want to lose weight," boom, done. No
43:51shots, no nothing. That would be the best product on the planet, right?
43:57But anyway man, I actually don't know how you... I mean, honestly, this is a real
44:02question I have... like, how exactly we transform this theory into something
44:06practical, you know? As in, packaged up into an actual offer that the guys at
44:11home can easily put together. Because, I mean, I don't know exactly what this
44:16Singapore System offer really looks like, but you told me it uses AI, right?
44:20Yeah. There's probably a members area, some sort of training, and video lessons. Right.
44:27Anyway, you could throw in a ton of stuff to cut the risk — add support, add this,
44:32add that. I mean, man, there are infinite ways to craft an irresistible offer. We
44:36can sit here going, "oh, do it like this, do it like that." Everybody kind of ends
44:41up with their own version of it. As long as you follow that general direction
44:45that baseline you know?
44:47But if we were going to apply something, or take what you did with the Singapore
44:51System — what do you think a person actually has to have?
44:55Like, to create a solid front-end offer, something that would work today in 2026
45:00or 2027, I understand we'd need a relatively short members area, delivering
45:04the exact result they want and that you promised taking up as little time as
45:09possible, plus a done-for-you element, which would
45:13be an AI we could mention in the offer, right?
45:16I don't know if you — actually, you probably
45:18built that into the Singapore System. Yeah, right.
45:21So, man, my question is: how do you think the guys at home can actually pull this
45:26off? I know there are multiple ways to do it, but I wanted to hear it from you.
45:30Like, do you recommend a minimum viable package for an offer they can create, so
45:35they can eventually script their VSL? Let's say, maybe they need at least a
45:39members area, an AI, and this and that, you know?
45:42Man, I'm gonna take a route here that I think helps us package this, because it's
45:46pretty hard to just pack it up and create a strict rule to follow, since it depends
45:51on some key variables. I just wanted to add a quick side note regarding the
45:55product launch market struggling to understand offers. It's not because
45:58offers didn't exist, okay? Some people did a really great job with this for a
46:02long time. I'll mention two: Erico Rocha and Leandro Ladeira. They
46:06did-We've got his episode here too, guys. It'll pop up on the screen.
46:09He kind of created a way for you to see the offer. Maybe without the same
46:13emphasis on it being an irresistible offer and all that, you know, the
46:17way we're going to work through now. But as I told you, looking back, this
46:21knowledge was available, we just didn't give it much importance.
46:26People were so focused on launch execution that they started ignoring the
46:29product itself. It was all about CPLs, driving traffic, getting show-up rates,
46:33and they completely forgot the core. Since running launches used to be super
46:37cheap to get massive volume, people still made sales. The conversion rate was low,
46:41but highly profitable due to the crazy disproportion between results and ad spend.
46:46So, we kind of lost the feel for the offer, but it was there.
46:49And all that just to say that it wasn't due to a lack of people teaching it. I
46:53mean, you know, even the biggest players were teaching it, but folks just didn't
46:58care enough, right? But anyway, getting back to the question of packaging an
47:02offer, I'll explain exactly how I built the Singapore System. But just to give
47:06you a quick little spoiler: for info products, having something systematic is
47:10actually really good, alright?
47:13So one way to make things click and actually happen in info today is with an
47:18AI, because what we sell is organized information, which is education. For me
47:22to hand over something finished, I'm gonna have to use an AI. It's different
47:27from a physical product, a supplement, a Mounjaro pen, whatever.
47:32Like, that offer I validated for lawyers also used AI. I mean, that last launch I
47:36mentioned before for the other expert... and it went really well.
47:39Obviously, you'll increasingly need to move past simple GPT agents. It's better
47:44to build something custom and actually name the system, where people log into a
47:48real platform and all that.
47:50So you keep sophisticating that piece, but I think the system is pretty much
47:54unavoidable. The real question is: what is the system for?
47:58And just out of curiosity, you know, whenever we take on new mentees, I
48:02actually have a bunch of hypotheses that I start testing on them to validate. And
48:06I arrived at a really solid hypothesis while building an offer for someone,
48:10because we literally sit down for two days straight and build their entire
48:13business from scratch. We actually did this for
48:16two different people in the exact same niche.
48:18Lots of people do it across different niches, right? But nailing the offer in
48:22the same niche with two people is something else, because that was my
48:25concern: I mean, like, man, I've got one mentee in content creation, and another
48:29one also in content creation.
48:31Like, I already taught the first guy, we built something together, so how am I
48:34gonna come up with completely new ideas for the second guy? Just so it isn't the
48:38exact same thing, since we're playing the expert game with people who actually show
48:42their faces. They can't just have the same offer with the same names and all
48:45that, you know? And we actually pulled it off.
48:47And one of them scaled to a hundred grand, and the
48:50other one— But, like, with the same mechanisms? No,
48:52they're different. Got it. And you'll see how, in that
48:54packaging, we go down totally different paths. I'll
48:56walk you through one of them, which I think is really cool. It's for someone
49:00pretty well known, actually. And honestly, I really enjoyed building that
49:04with someone that smart... and also her team, you know?
49:07So, they do content creation. One makes 40, 50 grand, the other hits around a hundred.
49:13So it's possible to create it for two people. And then what happens? Look, the
49:17way I see an offer, just so we can properly package this up, it basically
49:21comes down to... And I mean, with your extensive copy background, feel free
49:25to jump right in and share your take or correct me, okay? But I always explain to
49:29people that there's the problem mechanism and the solution mechanism.
49:33And to me, the offer is what connects the two. It's the bridge between the problem
49:38mechanism and the solution mechanism, alright?
49:42But to build that bridge that offer we have to map it out. Correct me if I'm
49:46wrong, but when I started in DR, everyone only talked about the solution mechanism
49:50and the sticky name, you know? That was all everybody cared about, man. Ours was
49:55the Singapore System, his was something else and so on... But honestly, I think
49:59defining the problem mechanism matters way more.
50:02And I don't know if you agree with that or not, but I can only create the
50:06solution mechanism once I've properly mapped the problem one. Because the
50:10problem mechanism is what keeps the guy watching. I believe a VSL is a striptease
50:14and in fact, I'm the one who named it that way.
50:18Mainly to explain it to the launch crowd: a VSL is not
50:21a lecture. That's the part they understand, huh? Yeah.
50:25I mean, I couldn't find a better name for it. Everybody understands a striptease.
50:29It's expectation. It's already fresh in the minds of the launch crowd. And
50:33that comes from the experience of building offers, like, "I'll just use
50:36something that's already fresh in their heads, so I don't have to over-explain
50:40it." Dude, you sit there waiting for that climax to finally get the thing. In our
50:45case, the climax is paying to see what's inside the product.
50:49So, because it works like that, I constantly need elements to hold that
50:53guy's retention. You can't just give it away. You need open loops and a lot of
50:57mystery. And with a clearly defined problem mechanism, we start explaining to
51:01the guy why he's stuck in that situation. So how did I build the Singapore System?
51:05Well, before anything else, before creating the system itself, I had to map something out.
51:10You have to understand, and this is the definition most people give for the
51:13problem mechanism, it's the reason people haven't reached the result you're
51:16selling. Especially in really crowded niches, where the person has already
51:20tried a ton of stuff. Why it didn't work, right? Exactly.
51:23And there are two things we need to understand: why it hasn't worked yet, and
51:27why the guy thinks it hasn't worked. There's what we look at and say, "it
51:31failed because of this," and then there's what he believes. And I found two things
51:34in the lead surveys, back from the launches.
51:38I mean, we had Uber drivers in there, people selling cake in a jar from home.
51:42We also had folks who tried dropshipping, like, both the traditional dropshipping,
51:47but also PLR. And there were even a few who tried doing a launch. So, despite
51:52being a crowd with a slightly lower awareness level, there was a small
51:56digital marketing group there as leads too.
51:59Anyway, a bit of everything. And I started to understand two things, man.
52:03And this is before I even thought about the Singapore System, just to give
52:07context... So, I started mapping everything these guys had tried, and they
52:11were always the same. Things like: "I'd freeze up.
52:14I could never do it, I could never execute, I never got where I wanted to
52:18go. My mentor would disappear, I'd get stuck on the methodology." They'd come up
52:22with all kinds of excuses.
52:24That was for the digital space. So I started thinking, "Man, there are two
52:28things happening in this guy's life. He wants to make extra income, great, and
52:32there are two paths he can take. Either the mechanical route in the physical
52:37world—like driving Uber, selling cakes, selling stuff at traffic lights, which
52:41physically exhausts the guy's body."
52:45And the other one wears his mind down, which is buying a course and failing,
52:49never managing to execute it." And a lot of the time I started to see they were
52:53blaming themselves for it not working. Like: "I can't do it." Because it all
52:57depended on him studying, you know? And this guy is 35 and up. He's already
53:01decided studying isn't for him, because in the launch comments you'd see stuff
53:06like, "really cool, but I'll never be able to do."
53:09And one guy commented: "really cool, but I've never done anything as big as you're
53:12describing, and I'm not starting now." And I thought, 'man, these guys are done
53:16studying.' And with slot apps out there and Mounjaro, everything points to him
53:20not wanting to, because, I mean, better options exist, right?
53:23And if a better option exists, I have to look like that better option, or I'll
53:26lose to that guy every time. 'Yeah, but his offer doesn't deliver.' Sure, but I
53:30still lose to him. What can I do? So I started realizing that. There's this
53:33whole part where they were physically and mentally drained, just blaming themselves
53:37for not being able to execute.
53:38On the physical side they'd say, "I can't do it, it's not making money, I can't
53:43drive more Uber hours, I can't hit more stoplights selling stuff." I literally
53:47mapped what they said using AI. I kept pulling it all together. And I said,
53:50"okay, so clearly I have to hand this guy something automatic, because he already
53:55knows he can't keep up with the work, and he doesn't have the time either." Because
53:59they all had full-time jobs. Very few were unemployed.
54:02That's exactly why they couldn't drive more Uber hours. "How am I supposed to do
54:06more? I don't want to quit my job." And I started noticing that. I said, "man, this
54:10right here is a problem. The reason they can't execute is themselves, and it's because people
54:16always sold them on the idea that they should be able to do it." Why? He'd try
54:21to execute, and when he got to the mentorship, what did the mentor tell him?
54:25"It didn't work because you did it wrong. Do it again, the right way." And this
54:30person stayed stuck in that loop forever.
54:32Sometimes the mentor wanted to put it all on the guy's back too. And I thought, "I
54:37think he already suspects that." I started running with that theory, because
54:41here's what I figured. Instead of me trying to change everyone's belief, what
54:45was I doing in launches? "Brother, it hasn't worked so far because you studied
54:49the wrong way, but there's a new way, a right way to study.
54:53And my method will show you exactly what you need to do." So I was trying to
54:57change his belief. I wanted him to stop feeling like, "I can't handle studying."
55:01I wanted him to hear, "no, you can handle it." Then I said, "you know what, man?
55:05I'm going to play inside his belief instead. You don't know how to study, you
55:09don't even have time to study, and studying really isn't for you. So what
55:13Brazil was missing was something built for a guy exactly like you.
55:16And that thing is finally here." Like, I started
55:19thinking that way. I needed to make this happen.
55:21How? I didn't have the Singapore System, but I had the AI.
55:25Since I already had the AI, I started thinking, 'worst case, I still have the
55:28AI, I just need to tweak it for this.' By then, I had mapped out the problem
55:32mechanism. So anyone who wants to package an offer has to ask themselves: 'what's
55:36the actual problem?' Because there are problems where AI just isn't the
55:39solution. Sometimes a simple Canva or carousel pack does the job perfectly. You
55:43don't always need an AI to package a solid offer.
55:46Like, I think Hanah, for example, delivers the creative formats already done inside
55:50the product. So it's not necessarily an AI creating the format. It's already
55:54there. She sells the pack as the product. So to package it, we need to know how far
55:59we can actually go. With Shopee, I can't hand over
56:01anything finished. Everyone's product and selling
56:03style is unique. Plus, they already have their own
56:06beliefs, and most have actually tried it before.
56:08So I started mapping that problem mechanism, got to those conclusions, and
56:12gave it a name. I said, "there's something happening to you that other
56:16people profit from, and it's called the overload cycle. They dump all the work on
56:21your back, you try to do it, then they sell you something else that's supposed
56:25to make it easier, and it's just more work on your back.
56:28Since you're messing up, they pile more tasks on you. That way, you're the one
56:32feeling inadequate, and it's never the mentor's
56:34fault.' So I mapped out this cycle for them.
56:36Just like there are things that wear you down physically, there are things that
56:40wear you down mentally, and they all live inside the overload cycle, right? Cool,
56:44so I mapped the overload cycle. Now I need a way to explain to this guy that
56:47there's a way to take that weight off his back. And on the copy side, we keep
56:51hitting that. Weight on your back, I'm taking it off, so he pictures the scene, you know?
56:55But before I explain all of that, I need to give this guy a vehicle along the way.
56:59Because here's what's also happening today, João, at least in my opinion, you know?
57:04There are so many offers out there, and this guy has already fallen for a bunch
57:08of DR extra-income offers. So naturally, I can't sound like a salesman right at
57:12the start... and do you know who I am right out of the gate with my expert? I'm
57:16the guy who finally figured out why you haven't been able to make it work. That's
57:19the goal of the VSL opening.
57:21So I don't even sell the promise straight up in the lead. I go something like,
57:26"there's a new system in Brazil that showed up to make people money in a
57:30certain way, but before I say anything about that system, I want to tell you I
57:34found out why you're stuck there. And I was too. Because these things are built
57:39to keep you from winning. Then I go: "I found the
57:41way out, I found the why, and so on..." So in that
57:44striptease angle, before he even knows what the money-making system is, he's
57:49sitting there in the curiosity of why he's in that situation, you know? And
57:53that worked really well for us.
57:56Then I explain the problem mechanism— which is a big chunk of the VSL. By the
58:00end, they should think: 'Damn, that's why I couldn't make it work.' The whole goal
58:04is shifting the blame. I make them realize they aren't the problem; the
58:08method they were handed was, right?
58:10And then I need to hand this guy a vehicle. I kept thinking, 'I'm not
58:14jumping straight into, hey, there's a system doing this and that.' Shopee sits
58:18in the middle, but I stopped playing the game of teaching Shopee. I use a system
58:22running on it. But before I say that, I have to prove Shopee is a solid place
58:26'cause it gives me data... and dude, I found
58:30something out. I mean, that at a copy level, okay?
58:35I mean, this is for the extra income niche, but I've got cases for the others
58:39too. I'll get into those later... but like, there is something I call authority
58:44anchoring, or external validation, okay? And I needed to prove to this guy
58:48that Shopee is a great idea. So I say: Look, there's a platform in Brazil, that
58:53you already use and it's actively paying Brazilians. But I still haven't mentioned
58:57it's Shopee, right?
58:59'Cause if I say Shopee right then, he'll think, 'this guy's just selling me Shopee
59:04affiliates again.' So I don't say it. I just mention a platform in Brazil with
59:08this many users, where regular folks are selling. Period. I don't even need
59:12someone to speak. We just show a regular guy, like Francisco, making sales on screen.
59:17And I figured something... like, what does
59:20external validation mean? For cold traffic it's
59:23I mean, why did I skip my expert's backstory? It's all about the person
59:27watching. The whole time, it's about them, not me. I pulled that from the launches.
59:32Like, our launch is about the guy watching. The whole time, it's about him,
59:36not me. I'm just the messenger. So I don't include any story in there, 'cause
59:40my only goal is making him understand the problem.
59:43And I got to the point where I realized: 'Look, with cold traffic, basically
59:47anything the expert says could be treated like bullshit. The only exception is a
59:51doctor in the weight loss space who has built-in authority—if he's actually a
59:55doctor, right? But for everyone else, everything they claim could be garbage.
59:59How much revenue they made, that the platform they use works... they can
1:00:03simply be making it all up, you know?
1:00:05And Since our market is so sophisticated, I kept thinking, 'if I stick to stories
1:00:09about how much I've made...' Like, some people open VSLs going, 'hey, I'm
1:00:12so-and-so, I've sold this much.' I ditched that completely. I'm strictly
1:00:16talking about why this guy keeps getting screwed. And then I found something.
1:00:20Like, there's a video of Marçal saying Shopee is the best way to start online.
1:00:25And then, in what my expert and I jokingly call the deep web—which is
1:00:29basically digging into old YouTube videos with, like, a hundred views—I found a
1:00:33clip of Eliana. That massive daytime TV host, you know? And she had an entire
1:00:38segment about regular families making money on Shopee.
1:00:42And then I thought, "okay, these people are widely known to my audience. So
1:00:46instead of me sitting here justifying Shopee is great through data and
1:00:50everything, I'll simply use them." So at that point in the VSL, I say, "I'm not
1:00:54the one telling you this platform is good." And then I explain, "you know what
1:00:58platform this is? It's Shopee, the one you already use.
1:01:01But hold on." I mean, here I include a move, like, there's a block in the
1:01:05VSL which I call more-of-the-same. And I drop it in so the guy can break away from
1:01:10the usual noise. Then I go: "But hold on, this isn't affiliate stuff, this isn't
1:01:14the stuff you are used to hearing.
1:01:16It's something very different, and a lot of people know it works. Everybody knows
1:01:20it's the best way to do it online, but for some reason it stays hidden. Although
1:01:24sometimes it slips out.' Then I bring in the Marçal video, saying, 'Shopee is the
1:01:29best way to make money online...' I mean, I'm giving this example 'cause I
1:01:32obviously found assets—famous people talking about the exact same vehicle I'm
1:01:36using. But this isn't my mechanism, alright?
1:01:39I mean, Shopee isn't my mechanism, 'cause I don't sell the platform itself. I sell
1:01:43the system that plugs into it. Shopee is just the vehicle, and if you pull it out,
1:01:47I'm screwed. I'd have to swap to something like Mercado Libre, but nothing
1:01:51else works as well. Everybody uses Shopee. And
1:01:54I sell mostly to women, and they're all over it.
1:01:56It's already a thing out there, you know? Like, people talk about Shopee, 'cause I
1:02:00think the platform is friendlier. And after I figured that out, my VSL
1:02:04conversion changed a lot. It really did, because I started anchoring. It stopped
1:02:08being about my expert being the big shot of Shopee.
1:02:11Other people are saying this is what works. Like, Marçal, who's a hugely
1:02:14influential guy — he's the reason we started scaling to a 100k a day, and
1:02:18I can talk about that later. And Eliana too. She's not as influential as Marçal,
1:02:22but she's a household name, and she had a segment on her show, clips across several
1:02:26episodes of regular people making money with Shopee.
1:02:29So external sources are validating my vehicle. That is huge, I mean, for me it
1:02:33was a complete game-changer. I was like, "Man, there's gold here," because I'm
1:02:36dealing with cold traffic, and the product
1:02:39launch crowd completely forgets about that too.
1:02:42Like, I can't just grab my expert and go, 'hey, say this.' He really does two
1:02:45million a month on Shopee. And he's got a warehouse, a partner, and everything. But
1:02:49I told him, if you say that, it'll be more of the same. And if you get labeled
1:02:52a scammer, we're done. How would we even prove we're not? Sure, we've got the
1:02:55dashboard, but it's questionable. So, let's anchor instead, 'cause if we do
1:02:59that, people will believe Shopee is a real path.
1:03:01Done. From there on, I've got the guy's attention, in the sense that he believes
1:03:06he can actually get somewhere that produces a result, right? So, to package
1:03:10that offer, what did we do? We mapped the problem mechanism, you know?
1:03:14Like, I needed to take that weight off the guy's back, right? So, I mapped a
1:03:17vehicle, which is part of the process, and that's Shopee, and I validated it
1:03:21with outside voices. But everybody's got their own way. I mean, if you're a
1:03:25doctor, you can use studies. Like, for a weight loss business, I'd use data,
1:03:29Harvard research, things like that.
1:03:31For personal development, I'd use psychology, neuroscience, things that
1:03:34audience already believes in. My audience believes
1:03:37in Marçal, in influencers, in politicians.
1:03:39My audience consumes these guy's content. The personal development crowd is
1:03:42completely different. They study psychology a bit more, they're more
1:03:46emotional, whatever. But in my case, I needed an influencer or someone famous.
1:03:50If you're building a finance VSL, I'd highly recommend dropping in something like.
1:03:53Thiago Nigro or another finance guru saying a savings account is a terrible deal.
1:03:58Have the guys making the most money in that space say it for you. Someone with
1:04:02real credibility with that audience. That's what you need to understand. I
1:04:06figured Marçal was the guy, and then he drops a video saying exactly that. For me
1:04:10it was gold. I tested it in creatives first, then moved it to the VSL.
1:04:14That's why I wanted to build the VSL from scratch, you know? like, I had all this
1:04:18in my head, and I thought, 'I'll turn the old VSL into a Frankenstein if I keep
1:04:22bolting stuff on.' I mean, I mapped out a real problem mechanism the guy relates to, right?
1:04:27I've also got a credible vehicle. And it's credible not just for the data they
1:04:32provide about billions of users and how many of them sell. It's credible because
1:04:36two people in the Brazilian market are saying this is the best way to do it. And
1:04:41I found out they're right. So, I'm just a regular guy passing this along.
1:04:46So I put on that humility mask, staying shoulder to shoulder with the person
1:04:50watching, that rapport thing, you know? And from there, we start getting somewhere.
1:04:55But Shopee is already a sophisticated space, like, a ton of people sell there
1:04:59already, so I needed something beyond that. And then, I thought: okay, how do I
1:05:03differentiate now? 'cause building a system isn't enough. People think
1:05:06creating an offer is just like, "click the button and it will happen." But that
1:05:10smells like a scam, right? So I need to build a line of reasoning first. Because
1:05:14what's a good offer, João? Click and you'll make money. Sure.
1:05:17Except ninety percent of people already know that's a scam. And I'm talking to a
1:05:21guy who's been through a pile of products. That's what the survey told me.
1:05:24Am I really going to tell him he just clicks and it happens? No, I need to
1:05:28build a story on top of it, right?
1:05:30Then I realized: Brazilians have an underdog complex. They're opportunists
1:05:34with an inferiority complex, but let's tackle the underdog first.
1:05:38Anything from abroad is cooler than anything homegrown, right? Like, imported. Every time.
1:05:45So I went to my expert and asked: dude, where is Shopee actually from? And he
1:05:49goes, well, it's from Singapore. And I always assumed it was Chinese, right? But
1:05:54turns out it's from Singapore. Yeah, in theory it's
1:05:57Singapore, at least that's what they claim... but the US
1:06:00banned. No, my bad, they banned TikTok, right? Yeah, exactly. So
1:06:04I said, "Cool, so far, so good, right?" I hadn't even gotten to
1:06:07the part of building the mechanism yet.
1:06:10I was writing the VSL step by step, talking it through with the team, pulling
1:06:14in a few students, just watching it come together. And the survey? I read it
1:06:18myself. It wasn't the AI. I actually sat down and read five hundred responses. And
1:06:22then I said, alright...
1:06:24Like, what actually worked was that damn desire trick, you know? So, I needed to
1:06:28include that whole thing about creating an offer with AI. But, I couldn't simply
1:06:32sell the AI. I had to include, well, I mean, people love little hacks, right?
1:06:36Like, for them to give credibility to a "click and it happens" claim, it means
1:06:40this thing I'm selling interferes with something in the backend, like a real hack.
1:06:44Because how do I explain to the guy that he clicks and it happens? Like, how do
1:06:48you click and Shopee pays you? Because this system does something on Shopee's
1:06:52side. It's a little hack.
1:06:54So once I started talking about a hack, in quotes, right? And the guy starts
1:06:58believing it's actually doable. Then I thought, "what if I say there's an AI
1:07:02that builds it?" Because my expert loved talking about the prefrontal cortex,
1:07:06buying psychology and all that. And I said, "man, that makes sense, but it's
1:07:11way too complex." And I mean, Our AI even builds the product image, with the copy
1:07:15and everything, you know? It's really cool.
1:07:18The description too. The person just drops it right into Shopee. But if I go
1:07:22down the road of explaining the psychology behind it, they're going to
1:07:25think, "I don't know, that sounds kind of sketchy." So I took another angle. I
1:07:29decided to say that when you implement it this way, Shopee recommends you. Because,
1:07:34at the end of the day, if your listing is better and it drives more sales, you get
1:07:38recommended, right? So I skip that whole explanation
1:07:41and just say, "this is what makes the algorithm
1:07:44recommend you." 'Cause there's an algorithm behind it, a code—and actually,
1:07:48the main thing in the VSL isn't the Singapore System, it's the Singapore
1:07:52Code. 'Cause there's a way these guys do it, right? So I mapped it out with my
1:07:56expert. I asked him, "who sells the most on Shopee?" and he said, "the guys in
1:08:00Asia." Well, what do Brazilians think Asians are?
1:08:03Smart. Exactly. And I thought, "this thing is getting
1:08:06good." Well, there are a few other stereotypes too. No,
1:08:08I mean... But smart for sure. Math? That's the Asian's
1:08:11speciality. And I said, "damn, we need a Japanese guy in
1:08:14this story." And here's the thing. This Asian
1:08:17angle my specialist mapped out is something really
1:08:20strong. And he mapped it 'cause he's sharp. Like, he found a trick that
1:08:24genuinely works. The document he put together is awesome, man.
1:08:28But if I say he created it—well, who is he to invent this? Like, he's a nobody.
1:08:32It works, sure, but the person has to believe it. So what did I do? I've got
1:08:37footage of him visiting Shopee headquarters, right?
1:08:40And I said, "look, since you learned it out there, let's dress this story up a
1:08:45little. Let's say this is... I mean, the guys who sell big on Shopee lean hard on
1:08:49persuasion in the product, the image, the description. They use a ton of it. So
1:08:54we're basically going to say the way they do it is what works.
1:08:57So if the guys in Asia developed a way to build a badass ad that beats the
1:09:02algorithm, that beats the system and puts you way ahead, somehow. And my expert was
1:09:08the guy... what's his actual role here? I'm not telling his backstory. Notice how
1:09:14up until now I haven't even mentioned his story.
1:09:17Like, he was just a guy who also had these same problems, found out Shopee was
1:09:21cool and made some cash, but it was way too much work. And throughout the VSL, my
1:09:25expert says, "Look, I don't like working.
1:09:28'I'm lazy, and I'm short on time.' So, he needed something better. Then he
1:09:31discovered the Singapore Code. Those Asian guys passed the code down to him,
1:09:35and he started making more money with it. And honestly, that's pretty much his
1:09:39actual story. He started selling on Shopee, and then he learned persuasion.
1:09:43He was a guy who always liked studying psychology, so he applied it to his
1:09:46store. And bro, he started selling a lot, until he hit two million a month.
1:09:51I said, "let's take it off of you and put it on the Chinese guys. I mean, not the
1:09:55Chinese. The Asians." It's Singapore, right?
1:09:59Anyway, I told him, let's say you learned it over there and brought it over
1:10:03here. I mean, because of that inferiority thing, you know? For this audience, the
1:10:08information has to come from abroad. So what was your role in it? You identified
1:10:12this code that only a handful of people had, and
1:10:15very few people hold that knowledge the way you do.
1:10:18So we're going to say that only a few select people have it, but you did
1:10:22something different with it. You systematized the code in a way that
1:10:26everyday Brazilians can actually use it. So, how did we package that offer? 'Cause
1:10:31in the end, we did want to use a plug-and-play system.
1:10:34But like I said, a system by itself falls short. I like the system pillar, and
1:10:38that's a personal preference. But take Hanah, for example—she delivers
1:10:42validated frameworks. It's not a system, and it's totally fine. But I liked that
1:10:46system specifically, 'cause I'd already validated it with a launch, and I needed
1:10:50to keep that angle. But what really changes the offer, man, is building that
1:10:53perceived value—that's what an offer truly is.
1:10:56You've got the problem mechanism, you've got a vehicle that gets you there, and
1:10:59validation comes from an outside agent instead of me. External validation. I'm
1:11:03anchoring on outside authority, 'cause it's cold traffic. I keep hammering that.
1:11:07And on top of it, inside that vehicle there's a way to stand out. That's why
1:11:10I'm not selling you more of the same.
1:11:12I learned it from someone with real authority in the space, which is also
1:11:16external. Asians are smarter than Brazilians, external validation again,
1:11:20'cause Shopee is from Asia, right?
1:11:22And I also found out that, well, in fact, I actually found this article
1:11:27straight from Shopee explaining there's a way to become a recommended seller. It's
1:11:32based on how many sales you make and how many stars your store has. So what do I
1:11:36say in the VSL? If you use the Singapore code, you reach that level and then you
1:11:41start getting pushed by Shopee organically, you know?
1:11:45So the prospect buys the hack to beat the Shopee algorithm. It's no longer about
1:11:49being a badass persuasive seller, psychology, the neocortex, whatever. So
1:11:53the perceived value skyrocketed, like, the guy thinks, "I'm really gonna click
1:11:58and things will happen," but it's not some quick-cash scam. It's like, he'll
1:12:02click, the system and the code will be applied to his store and his product, and
1:12:06he'll actually get the result.
1:12:08But it starts with a click. So he can map that perception, and for me, that's the
1:12:12real offer. That's what he's buying. He's not buying the Singapore System or the
1:12:16product or the deliverable. Of course, my job after that is to deliver the product,
1:12:21but at this point it's all about this perception. He's thinking, "damn, this
1:12:25guy is killing every objection I have, and it actually looks like it'll work."
1:12:29And up to that point, even though my expert really is a specialist, since cold
1:12:34traffic has no idea who he is, he becomes a bridge for the information. He becomes
1:12:38a messenger. And once he's the messenger, people
1:12:42drop that salesman filter they had on him.
1:12:44He's someone who's there to hand you information, all of it backed by outside
1:12:49authority validating several points of the mechanism in the buildup. And at the
1:12:54end he says, "I compiled all of this." And on top of that, I can add a few
1:12:58things, because we name things along the way.
1:13:01So we position that person — and I learned this here too, actually, on a
1:13:06podcast with Filemon, your second episode with him. It'll probably be linked up
1:13:11somewhere. He talks about gradualization. Shout out to him. Gradualization is
1:13:16something I use constantly in the VSL.
1:13:18Getting the guy to reach the conclusion on his own. I did that here too. Like,
1:13:22have you noticed that you enter Shopee, there are a hundred identical products,
1:13:26and you always pick one?
1:13:28Well, I ran a survey showing people were choosing based on something other than
1:13:33price. So, I had that data, but the guy will swear to me he picks by price. I
1:13:37surveyed students, my wife, a bunch of people. And I also found a study — I
1:13:41forget the source, but it's in the VSL — confirming that something else grabs
1:13:45their attention first. So I started saying there's an attention blindness
1:13:50that kicks in when you open Shopee.
1:13:52You always have to name things, right? So, you log in, and you always pick one
1:13:56product, that specific one. And the Singapore Code does exactly that for your
1:14:00product. You will be the chosen one, you'll shatter the user's attention
1:14:03blindness. So I use gradualization to support this claim. Have you noticed this happens?
1:14:08And after that happens, have you noticed this happens too?
1:14:11Now you step in right at that moment, when the guy realises, you're the only
1:14:15option, 'cause you'll be the one getting recommended, and your listing will look
1:14:19different. And then I show him how it turns out.
1:14:21And the whole time it's a striptease, right?
1:14:23I'm gonna show you. I still haven't mentioned the Singapore System, I just
1:14:27say there's a code, and I'll show it in action, but hold on, let me explain how
1:14:31it works and where it applies. And the guy is thinking, "I want to see it
1:14:35working." So when it's time to show it, I let the AI run, but I blur it out, that's
1:14:39the striptease, the climax, right? So, I let the AI run and... Boom, the image
1:14:44pops up. But I keep the code blurred as it runs. Line after line.
1:14:47At the end, I put the before and after ads side by side so he sees the attention
1:14:51blindness shatter. And he goes, "whoa."
1:14:54Like, I assume he's going to look at the right one, and I say, "see how you looked
1:14:57at this one?" It's a guess, but I'm pretty sure that's the one people look at.
1:15:00And at no point do I show how the AI actually works. He has to pay to see it
1:15:05running inside his own store. That's the hack. He pays to get the answer, you
1:15:09know? The VSL is built out of questions, but that last question with the last
1:15:13answer, he has to buy to get access. So, to package it... 'cause, well, this whole
1:15:18conversation started from how we package an offer.
1:15:21So, it depends, right? It depends on how I need to build it. I need a system, but
1:15:25a system on its own falls short. In my case it had to have a code inside it, and
1:15:29that's why it worked. It was a system that implanted
1:15:32the code for you, but the code is the core.
1:15:34The solution mechanism isn't even the Singapore System, 'cause that name's more
1:15:39commercial. It's the Singapore Code, the thing embedded inside the system. It's
1:15:43how I turn it into a product, so the guy buys the system instead of a code.
1:15:47Because a line of code has to be applied somewhere.
1:15:50Anyway, take the case of us building that VSL for the content creation niche...
1:15:54well, I have the option of telling people, "you need a good script." I went
1:15:58back and forth on that a lot with the expert.
1:16:01But that's boring, right? I need to talk about the algorithm, 'cause I have to map
1:16:05out why things fail for this person. It fails because you don't have time to
1:16:09film, because of this, because of that. And I gave it a name. In that case, it's
1:16:13"The hidden block"... You're being blocked by Instagram.
1:16:16Why are you blocked? Because there's an algorithm. So the vehicle that takes you
1:16:21from problem to solution runs straight through the algorithm. And I asked my
1:16:25expert, "what do you believe actually makes it happen?" She said, "the script."
1:16:29And I went, "the script. Okay, how do I put this?"
1:16:33I need to dissect that, reverse-engineer it... 'cause everybody sells you on
1:16:36needing a script, and it being hard. You might say, the AI can write it... Sure,
1:16:41but it's boring. And the guy still has to go to the AI, build it, and execute it.
1:16:45In my head, a good offer amplifies the positives and hides the negatives. Once
1:16:48the person is inside the course, they find out everything they need to do. And
1:16:52if they don't like it, refund, no problem.
1:16:55Then I asked, "Look, do you agree that a script is nothing more than just words?"
1:17:00And obviously she agreed. So, I said: Alright. Then, let's follow that angle, okay? words.
1:17:06Do you believe there are people running the same script, like, the same topic
1:17:10and the same format? The idea is to sell something other than format, 'cause
1:17:14everybody's going to be selling format. So how am I gonna stand out?
1:17:17"Would you agree there's the script, there are the words, and two people can
1:17:21run the same format but one goes viral and the other doesn't? Can you give me an
1:17:25example?" And she showed me: "here are two people on the same topic, same
1:17:29format, and one of them blew up." "Why do you think it blew up?" "The hook was way
1:17:33better." I said, "what is a hook?" "Well, a hook is this and that." And I said,
1:17:37"no. A hook is a combination of words. It's words put together, right?
1:17:42So if we tell a story that already exists, like, about what the algorithm
1:17:46does today — and I mean, I need to explain that the algorithm is the key to
1:17:51the whole thing, you know?
1:17:53And how do I explain it so the guy actually gets it? I need to anchor it in
1:17:57authority. And you've got the CEO of Instagram saying the algorithm is the
1:18:01whole game. Today, the algorithm reads content differently. It delivers beyond
1:18:05your followers, based on the social signals it gets. So now I'm proving to
1:18:09the guy the algorithm is the problem. And it's the CEO of Instagram saying it, not me.
1:18:14Okay, but how do we solve it? How do we fix this without making the guy feel like
1:18:20he has to study? There is a way for you to...
1:18:24trigger those social signals so the algorithm pushes your content, completely
1:18:28based on word combinations. I'm no longer selling a script, now I'm selling a
1:18:32combination of words. There are specific word combinations for every niche, and
1:18:36I'm gonna sell those. So ultimately, I'm
1:18:38selling the combination. It's actually a script
1:18:41generated by an AI, but instead of saying the AI writes it, I say, "Now the AI
1:18:45identifies the exact combinations for your niche and hands them to you so you
1:18:48can beat the algorithm." The entire time, it feels like you're beating the system.
1:18:52It's a game, like a hack. It's not about me being a great communicator—obviously,
1:18:56the product itself is badass, this expert's stuff is genuinely incredible.
1:19:00The person learns to communicate better and a lot more. But the core is the
1:19:03system finding the right combination to beat the algorithm. We need something to
1:19:07beat, and in this case, it's the algorithm. That way he doesn't feel like
1:19:10it's his fault, like his delivery isn't good enough... Does that stuff matter?
1:19:13Absolutely. But if I take that angle, the guy will never believe he can do it. So
1:19:18we have to keep creating these little hacks. In her case, it also had to be a
1:19:22system, 'cause I'm not just handing you a list of combinations. I could, but since
1:19:27there are so many niches and variables, I tell them I have a trained system packed
1:19:31with proven combinations that adapts perfectly to your niche so you can beat the algorithm.
1:19:37So packaging that offer — think about it, we started with an equation and it turned
1:19:41into all of this. It depends a lot on what the guy wants to deliver, and that's
1:19:46where the product comes in. I could deliver a sequence of combinations, but I
1:19:50think that lands as less credible, because I'm building a story. I mean,
1:19:54saying, "here, now I'm handing you the right combination" just falls flat, right?
1:19:59I need the guy to feel it's personalized—and it is, 'cause the AI
1:20:03builds it differently for everyone. But my focus is on how the AI applies it.
1:20:07It's like my Singapore Code. For her, it's the word combination, and then she
1:20:11sells the system that builds it.
1:20:14So for me, packaging an offer, that's the direction I'd go. And honestly, a lot of
1:20:18copy people, a lot of DR people, will look at this and go, "that's kind of
1:20:22obvious." I imagine that's true for plenty of them. But for the launch guy,
1:20:26the way it was always sold as a relationship funnel, where you sold
1:20:30yourself before you sold the offer or the
1:20:32product, this is brand new to whoever's listening.
1:20:35But we also have skill sets, and when we apply this new concept—the offer,
1:20:39something DR is incredibly strong at—we can pull profit from other stages of the
1:20:43funnel. Gustavo probably mentioned this to you yesterday, and that brings an edge
1:20:48that only a product launch guy has.
1:20:50So it's a mix of different games here. That's why it's hard to just package it
1:20:55up. I don't know if I answered the way you expected with an exact rule. I try to
1:20:59provide strict rules 'cause mentoring isn't about giving choices. It shouldn't
1:21:03be free will, otherwise people just won't execute. Even in a VSL, it's not about
1:21:08free will—this is just the easiest way to explain it. Are there other ways?
1:21:12There are, but this one beats them all. 'Cause if I keep handing out options,
1:21:16people just don't act. I like landing on conclusions, but this one's tough. What
1:21:20does it even mean to package an offer? That's why I brought two examples—ours
1:21:23and the content one—'cause we used that same premise to land on the final
1:21:27mechanisms, and from there, the product offer, right?
1:21:30Anyway, I don't know if that whole story made sense to you guys.
1:21:34Dude, are you sure you're okay? Yeah, why? Man, I
1:21:38think you just talked non-stop for, like, an hour.
1:21:41Damn, man. I mean, I think you just sat right there and gave us a solid one-hour
1:21:46explanation... dude, I don't think I've ever seen that happen on the VTurb
1:21:50podcast. I told you, I talk too much, man... But
1:21:53I know why. I'm drinking this— Can you focus here?
1:21:58Check out this new water. Have you seen it? It's literally stamped on the can
1:22:02right here. I can tell you guys — this is the elixir. The truth elixir. You drink
1:22:07this, man, and if you've got anything to hide, it's coming out, okay? If you come
1:22:11on VTurb and you're scared, hiding something, stay away from this water —
1:22:15That's their mechanism right here, guys.
1:22:17Dude... I'm gonna— Now I'm actually embarrassed, man. Holy crap.
1:22:21But why, man? You can wrap up the podcast. I talked too much.
1:22:25But that's literally your job, man. I mean, your job is to talk, you know?
1:22:30So, man, I asked you earlier, right? Like, back at the start, I asked you:
1:22:35"Bro, how do we actually create the offer?"
1:22:38"How many modules, how does it work, all that." And then you walked me through how
1:22:43you built the offer itself. But you actually built it based entirely on the
1:22:48mechanism, you know, that you defined beforehand. Exactly. The problem mechanism.
1:22:52And honestly man, I think that is the absolute best way to build an offer too.
1:22:57Because, well, we have this concept, right, which is the market sophistication
1:23:01level. Which, for those who don't know, guys, is basically how much the promises—
1:23:05I mean, it measures the level of skepticism in the market. Like, how many
1:23:09promises are being made out there, and how much
1:23:12skepticism that's creating in people, okay?
1:23:14So if everyone out there is promising, "hey, you can make money on Shopee," then
1:23:18launching another make-money-on-Shopee offer barely stands a chance unless you
1:23:22add something that sets it apart. Because like we said, the person already tried it
1:23:27and it worked—I mean, it failed, right? That's exactly why they are still looking
1:23:31in the market. Absolutely.
1:23:33So, man, I think it makes perfect sense to use the sales argument to build... or
1:23:38rather, to outline the argument first and then build our offer based entirely on that. Right.
1:23:45That approach right there, man, I honestly think it's pretty advanced, you
1:23:49know? I mean, I don't think it's trivial at all. Like, I think the guy needs to
1:23:54have a much deeper understanding of how to write copy. And truthfully, you just
1:23:58shared several advanced concepts on exactly how to build that specific
1:24:02argument to structure our VSL.
1:24:06Another thing you mentioned that I found super interesting was, hey, I can't say
1:24:10the word Shopee right now. 'Cause if I say it upfront, the guy instantly knows
1:24:13it's Shopee. But I haven't even sold the unique mechanism yet. So you really had
1:24:17to sell the differentiator first, so when you finally mentioned Shopee, he'd
1:24:21already believe this specific method could actually work. I did the exact same
1:24:25thing with collagen, bro. I mean, I used to have a collagen offer, you know?
1:24:29And, how did I come up with that? Well, I simply applied the exact same
1:24:34concept you just talked about, right? — I basically just went out, looked at the
1:24:39market, and realized everyone was talking
1:24:43about collagen, like, everyone wanted collagen.
1:24:46And then, well, since everyone wanted it, I thought: "Man, I could definitely sell
1:24:51something with collagen, people clearly want this." But if I just say it's
1:24:55collagen, the prospect won't buy my offer, 'cause there's zero
1:24:58differentiation from the rest. Plus, she's probably tried it before and it
1:25:03didn't work for her. Even though she constantly hears people get great results
1:25:07with it. So what did I do? I just came up with a
1:25:10completely different name. I built a secret lead,
1:25:12which comes from that book—it's gonna pop up on the screen for you guys, alright?
1:25:16It's called Great Leads. And it became known as
1:25:20Egyptian Glue, that's the name I gave it. It was a
1:25:23problem-solution lead where I'd say, "look, if you've got wrinkles, this
1:25:27Egyptian Glue can help you." And the person thinks, "wait, what is Egyptian
1:25:31Glue? What does that even mean? I've never seen this before." And the name
1:25:35itself implies something bigger. It's a glue, it can bind the skin, tighten it up, whatever.
1:25:41And it comes from Egypt, which touches on what you said about it being imported. It
1:25:45has that mysterious element to it. So look at how— I mean, man, what you said
1:25:49was seriously advanced. I think very few
1:25:52copywriters in Brazil know what you just laid out.
1:25:56But do you think, you know, people could actually
1:25:59understand it? Sure. The goal is always to
1:26:01be understood. I mean, I got it, and I'm
1:26:03basically repeating what you said so everybody at
1:26:06home gets it even better, right? But if anybody misses it, just hit replay —
1:26:10like, tap the rewind button. Or, even better, now there's a tiny star down
1:26:13there on YouTube with the AI thing, just tap that and— For real, man?
1:26:16Yeah. Damn, nice! It's awesome. Like, if I wanna find a specific part,
1:26:20does it actually find it? It does, but it works like this, look. 'Cause
1:26:23it drives me nuts. Sometimes I see a thumbnail where they open with the
1:26:26highlights, and I want to find that highlight and jump straight to it, but I
1:26:29can't. Dude, that's exactly my podcast. Yeah, yours is the
1:26:32one where I thought, "man, I just want that one specific part."
1:26:35Yeah, man, it's umm— look, let me see if I can show you. I don't know if it's on
1:26:39the iPad... this thing right here, see it? You tap here, it pops up. And then
1:26:44you ask the AI. Got it. It's like a GPT. It transcribes
1:26:47the video and jumps to whatever part you want...
1:26:49check down below, guys, there should be a button there, in case you want to go back
1:26:53over what João said, okay?
1:26:55So anyway, I thought, "if I just say collagen here, this is going to flop." So
1:26:59I introduced this concept of Egyptian Glue and grabbed her attention. Once I
1:27:03had her attention, then I explained the actual problem. And what was the problem?
1:27:08You lose collagen. So what do you have to do? You have to replace it, right? But it
1:27:12has to be a specific kind of collagen.
1:27:14And that's where I started the differentiation. It has to be a
1:27:17three-in-one type of collagen, 'cause that's the only one that actually works.
1:27:21Then I bought... well, since I never mentioned the word collagen as the
1:27:24solution, I bought myself a few extra seconds. I forced the person to read
1:27:28through my problem mechanism and a little bit of the solution. That alone convinced
1:27:32the person that, hey, this is actually something different. So I bought her
1:27:35time, which is exactly what you did with the Shopee angle. That's advanced stuff, guys.
1:27:39And I think that's one of the reasons your offer scaled the way it did, man.
1:27:43Because there's that advanced copy in it. But that copy
1:27:46only comes out that way because of the striptease concept we
1:27:49talked about. Like, I have to talk without revealing. I have to build
1:27:53several concepts inside the VSL so the guy wants to see where it lands.
1:27:57And when he gets there, there's another one, and another, until he hits the end.
1:28:01And once I realized it's not a lecture—it's a presentation, a teaser, a
1:28:04steady build-up of mechanisms—that's when I figured out how to structure it. Tying
1:28:08it back to product launches, the whole authority piece... I started thinking
1:28:12like that 'cause of the launch model and cold traffic. It's all about the concepts, bro.
1:28:16A VSL is just a set of premises. Everyone applies them differently, but people get
1:28:20stuck obsessing over blocks. Like, "I gotta write this block exactly this way."
1:28:24No—you just need to figure out the core concepts and deliver... Anyway man, go ahead.
1:28:29I actually think the block-building approach is pretty interesting, just
1:28:32'cause I feel like it makes things a lot easier, you know? It definitely helps.
1:28:37I mean, man, if a guy comes in using a block structure that's basically, you
1:28:41know, your VSL 1.0 from the Cirilo project... I
1:28:44mean, it works, and he can totally do that, alright?
1:28:47I'm not against it, but I think for an offer to hit multiple eight figures—to
1:28:52reach that level you mentioned, man—like, to be a massive hit—this deeper level of
1:28:56copy awareness is absolutely necessary, right?
1:28:59Yeah, for sure. Just to clarify, blocks do work. I actually use blocks myself,
1:29:03because if I tell the guy it's a spiral, I still have to turn it into a method.
1:29:07One thing we keep learning from mentoring people, helping them out, is that we have
1:29:12to systematize this stuff into a method.
1:29:14So blocks really are much easier. What I meant was this: stay away from the idea
1:29:18that there's one validated sequence where if you follow it, it just happens. That
1:29:23you'll get the same result as the other guy. Because people dissect a VSL and
1:29:27copy the same sequence, but the secret often lives somewhere other than the
1:29:30blocks. The blocks are usually pretty similar from one VSL to the next.
1:29:35It's the specific elements we layer in, like we just talked about. So don't get
1:29:38hung up on that. But obviously, man, if anyone writes using blocks, something
1:29:42decent's gonna come out.
1:29:43I think it's a good way to avoid screwing up. Like, you might not hit a home run.
1:29:47Right. But it keeps you from blowing it, compared to inventing something totally
1:29:51wild out of your own head. But anyway. Exactly. That's why
1:29:54I said it was an all-or-nothing situation back then. I was
1:29:57like: "Guys, it's make or break right now." Thankfully it worked out, but I
1:30:00knew it could've bombed completely.
1:30:01Honestly, man, my biggest wins as a copywriter all came from that exact
1:30:05all-or-nothing approach. And, you know, there's actually a legendary copywriter
1:30:10who recommends exactly that, Gary Bencivenga.
1:30:12And guys, he has this website called Marketing Maxims, or something like
1:30:16this—It's gonna pop up on the screen, right? —And Renata, please include a
1:30:19picture of Gary too. Like, put the site and his picture up, 'cause I'm trying to
1:30:23get him on the podcast. So I'm gonna screenshot this and send it over so he
1:30:27sees I'm talking about him.
1:30:28And bro, if that actually happens, I've beaten the game. Like, completely beaten
1:30:32the game... but anyway—then I told the prospects, "look, it has to be this
1:30:37specific type of collagen." And they go, "ah, got it, it has to be this one.
1:30:41That's why it failed before."
1:30:42"Cool, which collagen is it?" And boom, now he wants that specific collagen. And
1:30:47I say, "and this exact collagen is the one being called Egyptian Glue, 'cause it
1:30:51actually works." And then I transition straight into the offer. So I used that
1:30:55exact same setup you described, man, holding back the reveal on concepts that
1:30:59could trigger an objection, right? Yeah, perfect, man.
1:31:03And then, man, you broke down exactly how you built out that entire sales argument,
1:31:08from the problem mechanism all the way to the solution, right? And after that, you
1:31:13mentioned that when it's time to actually package it, like, to deliver the actual
1:31:17product and what's inside, from what I understood, there isn't necessarily a
1:31:21minimum viable product that the person has to
1:31:24include. As far as I understood, we just need to have—
1:31:27the core of it, like, what was pitched in the VSL—that super easy
1:31:31deliverable, which, well, from what I gathered, could simply be a module or
1:31:36piece of the product, right?
1:31:37Yeah, ideally it looks like the person won't have to think, you know? Like, it's
1:31:41something finished, either clicking inside the system or a pack. If we're
1:31:45selling formats like in Hana's case, or the other cases we have, it's "I'll hand
1:31:49you this validated pack." Something with zero cognitive friction, where they don't
1:31:53feel like they need high intellect to make it work. As long as they can read
1:31:57and write, they'll be able to pull it off.
1:31:59So, once I have that specific element dialed in, that whole low-effort, low
1:32:03cognitive friction angle, and all that. Then the rest of the deliverables, like
1:32:07the members area, the total volume of lessons, and all that stuff... from what
1:32:11I understood, it really doesn't matter all that much, right? Exactly. It
1:32:15matters a lot less on the front-end, mostly because the person won't even see
1:32:19it, right? She still has no access to the actual product.
1:32:23She's only gonna see it after she buys the product.
1:32:26So basically, as long as this core product actually delivers the solution
1:32:30mechanism, once it does that, we're fine, right? —Like, I don't need to
1:32:34over-optimize all that extra stuff, at least not just to get the initial sale.
1:32:38Now, obviously, if we want to build a solid LTV... then yeah, that product
1:32:42needs to be highly optimized and as concise as possible so the person sees
1:32:46results super fast and gets that taste of wanting more.
1:32:50So that's what I took away from it, man. I actually want to ask you a little
1:32:55bit more about that specific argument you built, alright?
1:32:59So from what I understood, man, your argument, or really the VSL you built,
1:33:04goes roughly like this, I'm just gonna narrate your VSL for you. And then
1:33:09you tell me if that's right or if I'm way off,
1:33:12okay? 'cause honestly, I could be way off here.
1:33:15Basically you tell the guy: "Hey, how's it going? I'm gonna teach you how to make
1:33:19money here. Watch till the end." And that's the opening... Then you go: "So,
1:33:24my name is Peter. And I figured out I never made money because I never had time
1:33:28to work." So your core problem mechanism revolves
1:33:31entirely around that lack of time, right?
1:33:33"I couldn't apply anything, I had no time, it was too hard." That was the
1:33:37angle: nothing ever worked for me. And funny enough, that's a great way to sell
1:33:41to this Brazilian audience, because basically these guys want to make money
1:33:45without working. You know?
1:33:46Then you say, "Bro, you're gonna be able to make money with a fraction of the
1:33:51work." —and dude, the first guy who ever pointed that out to me was Bifi, so
1:33:55shoutout to Bifi—then you say, "Look, I finally got my hands on this thing.
1:33:59Before that, I just couldn't succeed 'cause I had zero time. I couldn't execute anything."
1:34:05Then you continue: "so I desperately needed something where I could actually
1:34:10make money, but without it eating up all my time or requiring massive effort. I
1:34:15had no idea what to do. Then I started digging in and studying, and I discovered
1:34:19this specific method that completely automates the way you generate income." —
1:34:24But you never say which method it is, right?
1:34:27"And it all starts with Shopee, the absolute best way to make money." Then
1:34:31boom, Eliana and Marçal's testimonials. Now they fully believe Shopee is the ultimate way.
1:34:38Right after that, man, you just come in and say, "So I knew I really needed to
1:34:42make money with Shopee, but I still had to do all the heavy lifting." And then,
1:34:46boom, I stumbled upon this exact secret code from Singapore that basically does
1:34:50everything on complete autopilot. Built by the Asians. Built by the
1:34:54Asians, which completely wipes out all that heavy effort and all
1:34:57that wasted time. And with all that gone, now I finally got a solid result.
1:35:02"This worked for a ton of people, and that's exactly why I built the Singapore
1:35:06System." And boom, that's where the offer comes in. So from what I gather, that's
1:35:10basically the core argument of your entire VSL. Did I get that right, man? Yeah.
1:35:14I would just add a few minor tweaks regarding exactly where the story comes
1:35:18in. Like, up until the part where I talk about Marçal and Shopee, there's not even
1:35:22a mention of who the specialist is. Try narrating it for me,
1:35:25João. Okay, got it, man. But obviously, just keep it to a
1:35:28summarized version, alright? Oh, sure man. 'Cause I really
1:35:32want the audience to fully grasp this flow—the exact structure
1:35:35you built. It's not a conventional narrative at all, bro—it's completely
1:35:39custom. And honestly, that's the absolute top-tier way to write copy, you know?
1:35:43Okay, that's interesting, 'cause I kept thinking: Man, maybe I just got lucky
1:35:47here and I needed— Gustavo knows me... But what's the core issue with launches?
1:35:51—Real quick, I'll answer you in a sec. Take your time. The problem
1:35:55with launches is this: for the longest time, I was the guy studying
1:35:58every single strategy out there. And launches made me so angry, man, 'cause
1:36:02there was no exact science to it.
1:36:05Nothing guaranteed that doing it the same way would work, because there was a huge
1:36:10eighty-twenty in launches, you know? And that's the expert. Like, at the end of
1:36:14the day you have to accept that what sells the launch is the expert. The
1:36:18eighty-twenty is the guy himself, right?
1:36:20And I couldn't accept it. I kept thinking, "I'm working so hard, but it's
1:36:24totally hit-or-miss." I saw guys doing massive numbers and realized the 80/20 is
1:36:29simply the expert. So, I needed a system, 'cause If my expert leaves, I gotta run
1:36:33the exact same play with someone else. And in DR, I found out you can win with a
1:36:37smaller expert— Do you know why?
1:36:40Because like I said, even his story carries very little weight, you know?
1:36:43What actually moves the needle is the narrative that I built around him. And
1:36:47here's a fun fact, actually.
1:36:50For a long stretch we scaled without the
1:36:53expert even having an active Instagram account.
1:36:56Which sucks, obviously. You scale way better with the Instagram up, with
1:37:00authority. The guy clicks off the VSL, checks the profile, and then ends up
1:37:05buying through the bio link—it's real. But, we scaled hard without Instagram,
1:37:09'cause we kept losing the account. There were several moments where we lost it and
1:37:14conversion dipped a bit, but it was still a very profitable, you know? But
1:37:18anyway, back to your question. So, I wanted to turn it into a method...
1:37:23And in order to create a method, I actually started running these
1:37:26mentorships, 'cause I needed to know if what we built actually worked. Like,
1:37:30people teach it differently, which is totally fine, just like with launches.
1:37:35Blending the story in definitely worked, but explaining that whole spiral
1:37:39structure is hard 'cause it's not block-by-block.
1:37:42Transferring that exact gut feel is tough.
1:37:44But I thought: "To run a killer mentorship that actually delivers
1:37:48results, I need a methodology." An AI isn't gonna spit it out finished. I want
1:37:52this guy to fully understand our method. I don't want him renewing my mentorship.
1:37:56You learn it once, and from then on, you fix it
1:37:59yourself. I have zero interest in endless renewals.
1:38:02"So this is our methodology. You go do it, it works, and goodbye. I never wanna
1:38:05see you again. I want you scaling to the ceiling, 'cause you learned how." So I
1:38:09started testing those hypotheses. It worked with the first client, then the
1:38:13next, and it worked again with a guy selling government contract bidding. We
1:38:17turned that into an extra income mechanism, but with this exact narrative. Yeah,
1:38:21right. And he used other forms of external validation—even stuff tied to the
1:38:25government. It's incredibly powerful, we can come back to it later. For me, out of
1:38:30all this, that external validation is what— Hold on, this VSL
1:38:33structure of yours worked for government bidding? It worked man. Wow.
1:38:37Yeah... huge shoutout to Pedrão. Big hug to Pedro. Obviously
1:38:41everyone has their own scale ceiling. It also really depends on the
1:38:44copy, on how good it actually turned out. But everybody follows a structure, plus
1:38:49creatives, a bunch of other things. Still, it's just wild. So how do I
1:38:54explain the VSL, right? In general terms, here it is.
1:38:57First point. I have plenty of ads that say, "go watch a class." And I'm not a
1:39:01fan of them, but it goes beyond personal taste, right? Like, I have data showing
1:39:06that when I lead with a demonstration, where I use a lot of mechanisms... I
1:39:10mean, why do people have to define mechanisms?
1:39:13Because I use them in the ad. Like, I mention the Singapore System in the ad. I
1:39:18mention the overload cycle in the ad...
1:39:21So I bring the guy in with, "I discovered something." And it's always a revelation.
1:39:26"I found out why you're broke, why you're stuck where you are. I made a video just
1:39:30to tell you. I found out because this authority
1:39:33is saying it." And that's just an example, okay?
1:39:35Anyway, here's the deal with the VSL. First off, I'm not simply selling a
1:39:39class. So for the lead, I completely skip standard formats. I know about
1:39:43problem-solution leads and all that. I've got twelve leads—even the ones mapped out
1:39:47by Stefan—but my absolute best ones aren't even those.
1:39:50and we'll dive deeper into leads in a second. But basically, it's because of
1:39:54this: when it comes to the lead, I began to deeply understand that my specific
1:39:58target audience is just the kind of guy who gets hooked by pure news. He clicks
1:40:03on gossip, celebrity drama, sports betting, and all that kind of stuff, you know?
1:40:07Sensationalism grabs this guy. So I stopped thinking in terms of lead
1:40:11formats. I asked myself, "how do I get retention above sixty percent?"
1:40:15"How do I do that at brutal scale?" For example, I figured out how to tell the
1:40:20guy something outside the promise that still makes him curious. I dug into it,
1:40:25ran a deep research with Claude, and it brought back an interesting data point. I
1:40:30said, "bring me the government stuff, laws, labor laws, bosses, the stuff that
1:40:34already makes this guy furious."
1:40:37Being furious is his whole life. He forwards it on WhatsApp, to his uncle, to
1:40:40his wife. And then we hit the six-by-one work schedule thing, I don't know if
1:40:44you've heard of it, but everybody wanted that schedule change, and full-time
1:40:48workers are my audience, so I have to use that in my favor. But it went to the
1:40:52Senate—and I don't fully follow the details—but it got paused until the
1:40:56elections. The site even went down. And I thought,
1:40:59"I'm going to run a sensationalist news lead."
1:41:02So the lead opens with, "the six-by-one law that got approved," and then it
1:41:06starts telling the story of the law. And at the end, when
1:41:09I reveal what happened. Wait, about the law? That's right.
1:41:11The law that was supposed to let you work less hours was suppressed. 'Cause this
1:41:15guy is already deep into politics, right? Constantly thinking and forwarding stuff.
1:41:20So I talked about a law that directly impacts him. I revealed this benefit was
1:41:23being hidden and wasn't even approved yet. It was only gonna resurface after
1:41:27the elections. I hooked him there. So the retention on that lead went through the
1:41:31roof. And I needed to connect it.
1:41:34I used that angle to make him realize he's stuck in a rigged system where he
1:41:38always loses. Even with massive public support, the law still didn't pass. So I
1:41:42make him understand the exact trap he's in. First, I lay out his current reality,
1:41:46then I transition into how he can escape it. And that's when I introduce the core
1:41:50problem mechanism. Man, is that the lead you're currently— Yeah, there's
1:41:54one running like that right now. 'Cause we have this thing called
1:41:57multiple leads. We run several at once, and I'll explain why later.
1:42:00So I always try to bring something like that into the lead, because I need to
1:42:04take this person to the mechanism. They need to know that there’s a new platform
1:42:07that just arrived in Brazil that’s going to get them out of this situation. And
1:42:11look at the things I say: “A new platform just arrived in Brazil,” always with the
1:42:14idea of making it sound like something amazing. Okay, hold on,
1:42:17let me see if I understood this right. You basically said, “Man,
1:42:20there’s this law, Law 161. This thing was put in place to happen after the
1:42:24elections. In other words, people always want to keep you trapped in the rat race,
1:42:29just running around in the same cycle.”
1:42:31Because I’m going to explain the overload cycle later, so I’m going to make that
1:42:34connection. But I used the law because I knew it was something he really cared
1:42:37about. I mapped it out, and I saw that this was something relevant to people.
1:42:40Then I saw there was a ton of research about it on Google. I researched it using a AI's.
1:42:44Then you put that in. Man, fuck it. We made several
1:42:47versions, and then one of them, boom! It worked for
1:42:49retention. And then, obviously, it worked for conversion too.
1:42:53But it brought the whole VSL graph up like this.
1:42:56Even all the way through the pitch and everything. So then I come in with the
1:42:59mechanism, which for me is basically this: “Look, here’s the deal. I’m in this
1:43:03video to explain why you’re in this situation and why people want you to stay
1:43:06in this situation. So I’m going to show you what the truth really is. I know
1:43:10you’ve already tried doing this, both the physical things and the mental things,
1:43:13and it always leads to physical and mental exhaustion.
1:43:16There’s a name for this: the overload cycle.”
1:43:18Usually, people, employers, or whoever it may be, start blaming the same people
1:43:22they normally blame. The idea is to use their existing beliefs in a way that
1:43:26works in my favor and in theirs.
1:43:29There’s this overload cycle, but there’s also a way to break out of it. But before
1:43:33I explain how, I want you to think about something with me for a moment, so you
1:43:37can understand where I’m going with this. There are people like us who are making
1:43:41money online, because I know you believe in the internet.
1:43:44You just didn’t believe it was for you, because you see this guy and that guy
1:43:48making money, so you know the internet can work. But because you’re stuck in the
1:43:52overload cycle, you can’t see what the problems are. I’m here to show you,
1:43:56because I was just like you. But so far, I haven’t said I’m the expert or
1:43:59anything. I’m just some guy trying to get a message across, you know?
1:44:03How many minutes of VSL is that? There’s a good amount of
1:44:06time. Our pitch is 38 minutes before the button comes up.
1:44:08But I mean in what you said there, where the
1:44:10path... There’s plenty of time. I see. But what's
1:44:13considered good? Like, let's say, maybe five
1:44:15minutes just talking about this. That’s already five
1:44:17minutes, plus another five, and now it’s 10 minutes. I can check it more carefully
1:44:21later, but I know the pitch is 38 minutes, and the VSL is 50.
1:44:25There’s also the whole post-pitch section. Anyway, basically, I show this
1:44:29person that the internet really is a problem. In fact, let me tell you
1:44:33something. There’s a... Is the internet a problem?
1:44:35The internet is the solution, even though you haven’t been able to make it work
1:44:39yet, because you see people making money. I used to see that too.
1:44:42Until I discovered that there’s a platform in Brazil. Then I start telling
1:44:45the story of this platform, which is actually Shopee. It gets so much traffic.
1:44:49You’ve probably used it, you’ve bought things there, but there are people making
1:44:53money on it who aren’t big companies. They’re regular people just like you and
1:44:57me, like Francisco, who makes money with it. He’s just an ordinary person, right?
1:45:02And all that, you know. I also discovered that this works because I tested it
1:45:05myself, and it worked. And this platform has a name. You have it on your phone.
1:45:09It’s Shopee. But wait, I immediately tell them, “Hold on,” so they don’t think it’s
1:45:12some affiliate thing. It’s not about being an affiliate. And I talked about
1:45:16that. “You’ve already tried being an affiliate, whatever.”
1:45:18Then I come back and say it again to make sure this guy doesn’t think I’m about to
1:45:22say the same bullshit. Yeah, this and that. It exists, it’s not about being an
1:45:25affiliate, it’s not about this or that. It is the best way, yes. But I’m not the
1:45:29one saying it. I don’t want you to believe me. This video isn’t about me.
1:45:33I want to share what I discovered with you. In fact, sometimes some of the most
1:45:37influential people in Brazil talk about this, but they keep it hidden. Every now
1:45:40and then, it slips out. Then there’s a video of
1:45:43Marçal talking about Shopee. Boom, I’ve validated
1:45:46Shopee. Once I’ve validated Shopee, I keep building the story, saying, “Okay,
1:45:50Shopee is pretty cool, but I imagine you already... I want to talk to you about
1:45:54something now. Let me ask you... how do you open Shopee? How does it work?” Then
1:45:58I explain how Shopee works and explain that there’s this thing called attention blindness.
1:46:03So, basically, that’s the whole idea. There’s a whole buildup to it. This
1:46:06attention blindness is what determines whether people make money on Shopee or
1:46:09not, because you’ve also seen people making money on Shopee. Maybe you’ve even
1:46:13tried to make money on Shopee, but if you never overcome attention blindness,
1:46:16you’ll never be able to make money on Shopee. That
1:46:19attention thing. It’s something in the middle.
1:46:21So I can start building those names right away. Because I know a lot of people have
1:46:25already tried my form, and a lot of people have already done Shopee. So I
1:46:28need to keep that person in mind too. So, here’s the thing, it’s because people
1:46:32didn’t know that... and how did I learn this?
1:46:34From the Asians. There’s a way to get around it.
1:46:36Then I start telling the story. I was actually one of those guys who was
1:46:39already selling on Shopee pretty well, but I was also stuck in the overload cycle.
1:46:42I didn’t have time. I was making some money here and there, but it wasn’t
1:46:45enough. It wasn’t worth the time I was putting into it. I was stuck in the
1:46:49overload cycle. I quit, until I discovered this thing called attention blindness.
1:46:52And I went there to understand how it worked. I started selling, I started
1:46:56getting a lot of work, but I was able to get results. I ended up being invited to
1:46:59learn more about it because he was invited to go to Shopee, and he did this
1:47:03whole thing. So I use that, his photo, and all that.
1:47:05And that’s where I discovered, man, they showed me that there’s a right way to do
1:47:09this. A way where you actually get referred. Then I show that Shopee has
1:47:13this referral system, and I keep building the story.
1:47:15And there’s a code that I called the Singapore Code. Why? Because it comes
1:47:18from there. Shopee is from there.
1:47:20Wait, but do you think you actually used two
1:47:23different problems in the mechanism right there?
1:47:25Exactly, the central problem, which is why it doesn’t exist, and a more technical problem.
1:47:30No, I mean it like this, there’s problem number one, which is the overload cycle,
1:47:34and then problem number two, which is the attention blindness that comes with it.
1:47:38The overload cycle was built to help him understand where he is and that there’s
1:47:42something there. Everything is basically a little funnel. And then, once I’ve
1:47:46explained that Shopee is a good thing, I also need to explain that there’s another
1:47:50problem within it. That’s why I used it, partly so I can show the guy how the code
1:47:54works later on, but more importantly because I already knew that a lot of
1:47:58people had tried selling on Shopee. I already knew that information was out there.
1:48:02A lot of people have already tried. And in the sophisticated market, I thought,
1:48:05“I need to...” I figured that if the guy hadn’t been able to sell on Shopee, I
1:48:09wasn’t going to create an objection. I was already coming in with something that
1:48:13solved that problem, so he kind of starts understanding
1:48:15it as we go. If he didn't sell, in fact, like...
1:48:17In that case, you’d be targeting both audiences. Who sold and who didn’t.
1:48:21Exactly. That was also an all-or-nothing thing, because I’m trying to go toward
1:48:24both sides. I wonder if like...
1:48:26Your copy is going to appeal to a broader audience, which means you’ll be able to
1:48:30reach both groups, but in exchange for that, you’re probably going to sacrifice
1:48:33some retention and other things along the way.
1:48:36You lose retention because you have to explain two concepts. Exactly.
1:48:39So, what did I try to do to lose less retention? Since I was telling a
1:48:42little story about how Shopee works and gradually bringing it into that part I
1:48:46mentioned, I said, “Man, I just want him to imagine himself actually using the app.”
1:48:49And I tell the story of attention blindness as part of the process, so he
1:48:53can understand it. The way I think about it is, throughout the VSL, he has to keep
1:48:56understanding things as he goes. I think once this guy starts understanding what’s
1:49:00going on, he starts to feel more... I don’t know, more confident, and he starts
1:49:03enjoying that feeling of actually understanding something. I don’t know how
1:49:07to explain it, it’s almost like a dopamine hit. Like, “Man, I’m
1:49:09understanding this for the first time. I’m actually getting it.”
1:49:12You are giving him information, he feels like he is making progress. And
1:49:15when I talk about attention blindness, I think the name is good. He’s
1:49:18like, “Damn, that’s actually true. I’m gonna choose one.”
1:49:21But why do you... Actually, I’m not sure if there’s an answer to this. Because...
1:49:28I don’t know if there’s actually an answer to what I’m about to ask, because
1:49:32the process of creating copy is such a hands-on, almost artisanal process. You
1:49:36put the thing together, you test it, and then you see whether it works or not.
1:49:40Basically, that’s what it comes down to, right? But you could’ve made the argument
1:49:44in a much simpler way, at a more basic level, without making it so complicated, you know?
1:49:51It would be something more or less like this. You’d say, “Man, you’re stuck in
1:49:55the overload cycle, so you don’t have the time to get things done. To change that,
1:49:59I discovered something that can actually do things automatically for you. And it
1:50:03all starts with the app you already have right there on your phone, which is the
1:50:07Shopee app, but this isn’t about selling on Shopee, and it’s not affiliate
1:50:11marketing either, and so on and on."
1:50:13And then you’d say they have something automatic that does the whole thing for
1:50:17the guy and helps him make money. So we wouldn’t even need to talk about
1:50:21attention blindness... or the code. We’d only have one single problem, with a
1:50:25simple little solution right there. Your VSL would be much simpler overall. Did
1:50:29you ever actually think about doing it that way? Was that a possibility you
1:50:32considered? Or did you kind of think, “No, I
1:50:35decided to go with this other approach instead”?
1:50:38Yeah, actually, one of the big goals my expert even brought up when we talked
1:50:42was, “Look, man, I think we might also have a problem with the VSL.” His was
1:50:46around an hour long. Then I helped with the second one, and that one ended up
1:50:50being an hour long too. He said, “Man, I think the length might actually be a
1:50:54problem.” I said, “Man, alright. A hypothesis is just a hypothesis. I’ll
1:50:58test it and try to make something shorter.”
1:51:02But I don’t think I’m going to be able to, because I feel like I’m naturally
1:51:06going to want to say too much. But I found a way to actually tighten it up and
1:51:10make it shorter. I wanted to validate that hypothesis.
1:51:13And that’s exactly what I told him. I added some things that I probably
1:51:17shouldn’t have, but I need to validate this
1:51:19hypothesis around authority and specific elements.
1:51:22But I already have a way to do it. He turned around and said, “Man, it’s
1:51:25edited, and it’s still 50 minutes. It didn’t change much.” I said, “Relax,
1:51:29trust me. The pitch got shorter. Forget about the total time, what matters is
1:51:33when the button shows up,” that was my thinking. It was 38 minutes, whereas his
1:51:37was 46 before, so the pitch got almost 10 minutes shorter.
1:51:40But I already came to him saying, “I’m running a test, and I already have an
1:51:44answer ready for when it stops performing. Assuming it keeps performing,
1:51:48I have a quick solution to make a shorter version,” which is exactly what it is.
1:51:52I have sections that I can shorten, and this would be one of them. I can cut it
1:51:55down. I don’t need to explain the attention blindness and all that. So
1:51:58there are several fragments of the VSL that I’ve already prepared.
1:52:02If the hypothesis about the length being important turns out to be strong, I don’t
1:52:06want to write another VSL. I want to cut things out, because part of being a good
1:52:11copywriter is knowing how to remove redundancies and make things shorter
1:52:14while keeping the same meaning. We’re thinking
1:52:17about retention, but I said, “Man, I want to see.”
1:52:20Yeah, like, without a doubt...
1:52:22I’m actually planning to make a shorter version. I’m just waiting a little bit
1:52:26longer, because I think that... I wouldn’t even say it
1:52:29has to be shorter, man. It could maybe be the same length,
1:52:31but with more arguments around a single problem.
1:52:34But I wanted to run a test by actually taking things out and going straight to
1:52:37it. You basically have two VSLs here. You have the VSL about the overload cycle and
1:52:41the attention blindness. With attention blindness, you’d say, “Man, what’s the
1:52:45problem you’re dealing with?” And the attention blindness,
1:52:47like, the VSL used to be about the desire trick,
1:52:49which was for people who already sold on Shopee. I said, “Man, we don’t have scale
1:52:52because it’s not broad enough.” So I went that direction. But then I thought,
1:52:56“Fuck, it’s still validated there. How do I try to make it work for both worlds?” I
1:52:59wanted something that felt really believable. I think it would be hard for
1:53:02me to say there’s a code that sells. I said, “What does this guy actually do? He
1:53:05breaks the attention blindness.” I was obvious.
1:53:08Adding things beyond that and already anticipating what could happen. But
1:53:12ultimately, I’m already comfortable with that possibility. It’s actually good that
1:53:16you’re saying this because, man, you’re a major authority saying there’s a whole
1:53:19world of opportunity in trying to skip a few steps and see what happens.
1:53:23But I think your VSL is exactly like that, you know? It’s one of those things
1:53:27where we can never really know if a VSL is actually good. Not just that, but what
1:53:31I mean is, when we create a VSL, we can’t truly say whether it’s a good VSL or not,
1:53:36because until we actually put it out there and test it, we just don’t know.
1:53:40We can only tell if it’s bad. And, my God, the amount of terrible VSLs people
1:53:45send me, it’s just awful. But we don’t know if a VSL is good. We have to test it.
1:53:50Your VSL is definitely good. Otherwise, it wouldn’t have sold, and you probably
1:53:54wouldn’t even be here, you know? So, without a doubt, it’s a good VSL.
1:53:59And you basically closed off every possible exit, right? You came in and
1:54:02said, “Man, look, you don’t have time, you have money, anything that makes this
1:54:06easier, selling on Shopee.”
1:54:08But why? Okay, so it’s not just any method, because most people who try to
1:54:11sell on Shopee don’t succeed. So you have to overcome this thing here. And then you
1:54:15take that top-of-funnel person, and if they come in because of the mystery, but
1:54:19when you mention Shopee they’re about to stop because they’ve already tried
1:54:22selling there, you say, “Hold on, not so fast. The reason you didn’t succeed on
1:54:26Shopee before wasn’t because Shopee doesn’t work. It was because of this
1:54:29right here, the attention blindness.”
1:54:31“So that’s why you have this other thing here.” So you basically have two
1:54:35problems. First, you take the top-of-funnel person and transition them
1:54:38into the Shopee opportunity, and then you differentiate the Shopee offer all over
1:54:43again. And what happens because of that? Man, your whole line of argument is going
1:54:47to get longer, because you have to explain both problems and connect them in
1:54:51a way that makes sense. Yeah, it has to be tighter, otherwise you lose the guy.
1:54:55It’s going to be... a little more complex, but you’re going to be able to
1:54:59reach, like, the maximum possible audience and appeal to more people overall.
1:55:03I was worried about that. I said, “Man, I know I’m writing this in a way that makes
1:55:06sense.” I read it and thought, “Dude, it looks good, but I’m taking a risk with
1:55:10retention and with how complex all of this might feel to other people, right?”
1:55:13And then I said, “Fuck it, I’m going to test it.” And when we actually tested it,
1:55:17all the graphs were really strong across the board. There was basically no
1:55:20drop-off, nothing that really stood out as a problem.
1:55:22Actually, our pitch retention is around 22%, 23% at 38 minutes. And it’s much
1:55:26higher than it was before. So yeah, before we had more time. But I said,
1:55:30“Man, what I care about is conversion, and fuck everything else.” And the
1:55:34conversion was at a level we had never seen before. Some days were better, some
1:55:38days were worse, but I want to run this test. And honestly, after what you just
1:55:42said, I’m going to do it tomorrow. Fuck it. Dude,
1:55:45I gotta invite you to the podcast more often, man
1:55:48Why? Because first of all, I’m barely even doing any work here, okay? I’ve asked,
1:55:52like, three or four questions at most, and you suck at FIFA,
1:55:55man. But, wait. I’ll still be able to have some fun later.
1:55:59Dude, one thing at a time. This is a VSL too. You guys are gonna see the FIFA
1:56:02result later. And if I win, are you actually gonna put that in the edit? Are
1:56:05you really gonna let everyone see you get embarrassed?
1:56:08Man... Put it in there right now, Thiagão. Tell them I won, show João there, okay?
1:56:12But make sure you put the result... It’s gonna look so
1:56:14good if you say that and then my picture pops up with the
1:56:17Champions League. Hey, but you’re not gonna win,
1:56:19man. Come on, trust me. But look, this one could
1:56:21actually happen, okay? Because yesterday I played against Caio, and I beat him
1:56:25pretty badly, but he’s a pretty quick kid. He is so...
1:56:28He was the biggest challenge this year, okay? Look, it's Caio. No, you got like...
1:56:34He said he didn’t get fucked, man, no homo alright?
1:56:38Yeah, so, put Caio in there too, okay? Is that alright, Caio, can I put you in? Go
1:56:43ahead and put Caio in there too, okay? So let’s see if he won today.
1:56:46I want that plaque back there, the 150 million from VTurb. Caio, on the other
1:56:50hand, wants the FIFA plaque.
1:56:52Yeah, man, that one’s the hardest. But we’re not leaving Floripa until he actually wins.
1:56:56You can rent a house then.
1:56:57I knew you were going to say that. You can buy a house, or something like that. Dude, look...
1:57:08Man, when you’re working with your students, not just explaining it to them,
1:57:13but actually helping and mentoring them through the process of creating a VSL, do
1:57:18you use this two-problem structure for every VSL you make or does it depend on
1:57:22the offer and the audience you’re targeting? Actually no. You use the simpler structure,
1:57:28where there’s one problem and one solution. You
1:57:30usually follow something more straightforward, I’d say.
1:57:33Yeah, I don’t take too many risks with that one, because it was a risk going in
1:57:37two directions and trying to target two audiences.
1:57:41Yeah, and I knew I could do that because, man, my expert and I record more than 100
1:57:45creatives a week. We have a whole structure to test this stuff, make it
1:57:48work, change things, and all that. We literally live to do this. So if it went
1:57:52wrong, I’d build another one, and I’m a copywriter, I know where I went wrong and
1:57:56all that. But for people who are just starting out, I try to keep it simple, like you said.
1:58:01So I go with the unique mechanism, the vehicle, and the solution mechanism.
1:58:06That’s a fact. You need the unique mechanism, the problem, I mean, you need
1:58:09the vehicle. It has to be the algorithm, it has to be Shopee, there has to be some
1:58:13kind of vehicle in the middle, and then the solution comes through the hack of
1:58:17that vehicle to eliminate the problem. Period. Then, depending on the complexity
1:58:20or the level, because there are basically two types of people who come into our
1:58:24mentorship: the guy who already has a VSL and the guy who doesn’t have one.
1:58:28So, if the guy already has a VSL, I build it this way. But maybe his VSL is already
1:58:32at a really high level of sophistication, and I say, “Man, let’s try it and see
1:58:35what happens.” That guy can also put it together quickly and go back and make
1:58:39changes, because he’s already more used to the process. But obviously, you keep
1:58:43it simple. That’s actually the advice you gave. I went a little beyond that.
1:58:47It’s kind of a bet, but I don’t go beyond that when I’m teaching either. I stick to
1:58:51the basics, because I did this to hit 300,000 in a single day, with the
1:58:55ascensions and everything. But if the guy wants to make 30,000 a day, he doesn’t
1:58:59need to take it that far.
1:59:00Plus, the guy is still figuring out his market, because I’m in the extra-income
1:59:04market, fully qualified. Sometimes there are guys who aren’t in the... I mean,
1:59:08content is also a market that’s getting more sophisticated over time. And
1:59:12obviously, as time goes by, we keep making changes, but at a methodological
1:59:15level, it’s not like that. That’s another step.
1:59:18Man, there’s something I found really interesting here.
1:59:22It was that, if you really stop and think about it, what you’re telling the guy is
1:59:27right at the beginning of your VSL. It’s basically this, man. Obviously, you said
1:59:31it in a slightly nicer way, a little more polished and stylized, but what you’re
1:59:35really telling the guy is: “You know why you’re not making money, man? Because you
1:59:39don’t work.” You know what I mean?
1:59:42But I can’t assume that’s the problem, because he’s been conditioned not to
1:59:46work. That’s not really his fault.
1:59:47Exactly, yeah. And I found the simplicity of that really interesting. It’s
1:59:51basically like, man, why... you know why you’re not making money, man? Because
1:59:56you’re not working as much as you should be. And it’s not your fault. That’s the
2:00:00most basic level of thinking you can get to. And I think that’s exactly what
2:00:04connects with the widest possible top-of-funnel audience, you know what I
2:00:08mean? And the best part is that I come in with my expert and tell you, “I’m lazy too. I
2:00:12don’t want to either.” But there’s a way to do it without working as much. Because
2:00:16I’m not promising the guy something else.
2:00:18It all depends on your promise. The more you promise, the more you have to
2:00:21explain, and the stronger your proof has to be. I promise the guy he can make 200
2:00:25to 300 reais a day, or maybe 200 to 400. At the end of the day, that’s 6,000 reais
2:00:29a month in extra income. And we have... we’ve documented a lot of people who were
2:00:33able to do this without quitting their regular jobs.
2:00:35And they didn’t do anything extra, you know? They just used the thing, and it
2:00:39worked. Because another important thing is that we’re not just selling the
2:00:42system. We tell them there are three pillars.
2:00:44You have Shopee as one of the pillars, you have the code, and you have the
2:00:48system. So we have to use everything together. But there’s also the part where
2:00:52you have a store with products, and that’s where the upsell secret comes in.
2:00:55But I don’t put much emphasis on that. There are some products that I have but
2:00:59The Singapore system is basically this:
2:01:02We have a system with an integrated supplier that provides Brazilian dropshipping products.
2:01:08The system handles all of that. It’s not just about clicking and... remember I
2:01:11told you the main thing is having the copy put together, the images, but all of
2:01:14that is connected to a supplier system. So he doesn’t even have to worry about
2:01:18that. And then I talk a little about dropshipping, man. You don’t even have to
2:01:21see the product. There’s a part where I talk about that when I get to the offer.
2:01:24So it’s basically like I’m selling everything together.
2:01:27And then later, in the upsell, we come back to this because we always need to
2:01:30have things connected to the upsell. What’s the problem most people have with
2:01:33upsells? Just to make one quick point. They build the VSL one way, and then the
2:01:36upsell isn’t connected to what was actually sold
2:01:39in the VSL. So everything becomes disconnected.
2:01:41So, I have to use elements I used in the front end to justify the upsell later on.
2:01:45In our case... we use this part about the products and the store because we talked
2:01:49about it on the front end, since it’s an important step. But the focus isn’t on
2:01:53that. We take the focus away from it, and then later on, after they’ve already
2:01:57paid, I bring that focus back with a different perspective. Anyway, if you
2:02:00want, we can talk about that too. It’s another topic. Calm down, man. Well talk about that.
2:02:05And also, if you’re enjoying the episode and it’s given you some kind of insight
2:02:09into making money, scaling your business, or anything along those lines, man, take
2:02:13a look at the screenshot that’s gonna show up on the screen. This is a guy who
2:02:16really enjoyed the episode, and he went ahead and shared this link in a WhatsApp group.
2:02:21So, it doesn’t cost him anything, okay? He just thought it was cool, grabbed the
2:02:24link, and shared it. And I’m asking you to do the same thing he did. Copy the
2:02:28link to this episode and drop it into a WhatsApp group, show it to more people,
2:02:32okay? Send it to a friend, a business partner, or anyone else.
2:02:35This might seem super simple, okay? And it really is, it’s 100% free. But it
2:02:39helps more people discover our podcast, and as a result, it grows. That allows me
2:02:43to bring more and more people on to create content for you and help you grow
2:02:48your business even more.
2:02:49And like I said, okay? It’s 100% free, there’s absolutely no cost for you to do
2:02:53this. The only thing you’re doing is helping another entrepreneur, just like
2:02:57this episode is helping you. So, man, go ahead and do it. Share the episode, and
2:03:00that way the YouTube podcast can keep growing, and I can bring more and more
2:03:04people on to create this free content for you, alright? So, let’s get into the episode.
2:03:09Look, you know what? I don’t know if you’ve thought about this before, but
2:03:13that 6x1 lead, where you tell the person, “Look, the problem is that you’re not
2:03:18working, but there’s an opportunity that can help you get results more easily,
2:03:22more quickly, and without having to work as hard,” do you, like, realize
2:03:27that this kind of lead could basically be used for any extra-income VSL out there?
2:03:32Yes. Because in theory, the problem is always the same.
2:03:36Exactly... we can always frame the problem this way. Yes.
2:03:40This is a really interesting thing. It’s like a universal lead, man.
2:03:44But it’s a lead that has a timing to it. There’s
2:03:46the timing, but there’s always going to be
2:03:48something happening. And that’s a hack. People spend
2:03:51too much time thinking, like, “I’m gonna make a
2:03:53promise for the guy to see later.” I’m playing a different game. Like, man, this
2:03:56guy has... Like me in FIFA, right bro? Like you being absolutely insane at FIFA, man.
2:04:02I created a, man, sensationalist leads work for my audience. I took a bunch of
2:04:06people talking about how a Shopee platform had arrived when it first came
2:04:09out. And I put it right at the beginning of the VSL. “The platform has arrived,”
2:04:13but I don’t say it’s Shopee. “A new platform has arrived in Brazil.” Then
2:04:16another one comes in and say that again.
2:04:18“A new platform has arrived in Brazil that’s...” There was a news story about
2:04:22people making money, but it was actually about Shopee back then. I used it again,
2:04:25and the guy starts wondering, “What platform is this?” Then I introduce the
2:04:29problem mechanism: “Hold on, I’m gonna reveal it now.” Sensationalism, making it
2:04:32look like... actual news.
2:04:33And then you can use AI for that. You can have AI create something that looks
2:04:37like... a news report. Because, man, is it fake or not?
2:04:40Man, you’re telling a really engaging, entertaining story about something,
2:04:44because... like I said, you’re competing for people’s attention with
2:04:48influencers, gossip, Fortune Tiger, and everything else that’s out there.
2:04:53If we don’t raise that bar, man, we actually need to lower the threshold for
2:04:56what people perceive as worth paying attention to. I need to say something
2:05:00sensational to this guy, otherwise I’m never gonna capture his attention in the
2:05:03first place. He’s always gonna go watch the guy talking about the World Cup,
2:05:07betting, Virginia, and everything else competing for his attention.
2:05:10So if I’m not sensational, if I don’t create a story that pulls this guy away,
2:05:13he’s gonna stay where he already is, where people are spending way more money.
2:05:17Like, it’s way easier for him to see that, and it’s way more entertaining than
2:05:20mine. People have a really hard time with this in launches and also in DR, with
2:05:24White and Black. Man, to me, White and Black are basically this: Black is when
2:05:28you sell something and don’t deliver.
2:05:29Everything else is White, man. Basically, if you sell something and don’t deliver
2:05:33what you promised, you’re Black. If you sell something and actually deliver on
2:05:37it... Yeah, everyone seems to have a different definition, man. Like, I
2:05:40understand it from the Facebook side of things. I actually started out as
2:05:42a media buyer. They say Black gets blocked.
2:05:45Because Facebook doesn’t allow certain money-related or sexual content and so
2:05:49on. So I understand the idea of Black in that
2:05:52sense. Cigarettes. Cigarettes. They don’t allow the
2:05:55subject, not the problem itself. It’s the subject they don’t allow.
2:05:58It's his rule, right? In the end, the platform belongs to them.
2:06:02Even if sexuality is discussed for education, it can be a good thing for
2:06:06society, but Facebook may still reject it. Anyway, that concept exists in media buying.
2:06:11But people take it to this level, like... “Oh my God, I’m...
2:06:14if you” Like, everything is considered “black,” but the aggressiveness
2:06:17of the offer is part of marketing. Because you’re competing.
2:06:20If you’re in the extra income space, you’re competing
2:06:23with Fortune Tiger. You have to be on the same level as them,
2:06:27because that’s the level of awareness of the C and D audience,
2:06:29which is our audience. We’re competing with this guy.
2:06:32Obviously, if you’re talking to a guy who’s a really successful freelancer
2:06:35making 10,000 reais a month but wants to make money in the digital space, he’s
2:06:39probably not paying much attention to Fortune Tiger. You can talk to him about
2:06:42launches and he’ll listen, but the rest probably won’t. So we have to know how to
2:06:45grab his attention with what he actually wants. Then, in the product, we deliver
2:06:49what he needs. Sell what he wants, deliver what he needs. That’s a basic
2:06:52rule. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that concept too.
2:06:55Man, do you believe there are... actually. In your writing process, do you
2:06:59use these universal leads a lot, the kind that could basically work for almost any
2:07:04type of offer? Because at the end of the day, we’re talking about something
2:07:08happening right now, a problem that pretty much
2:07:11everyone is eventually going to have to deal with.
2:07:14It reveals an opportunity that’s specific to you. That’s when it starts becoming
2:07:18something more specific to your business, you know what I mean? And these universal
2:07:22leads, is that something you always use in your writing, or do you usually switch
2:07:25things up depending on the offer? No, I started writing a
2:07:28ton of leads, and I started thinking, “Man, this is getting
2:07:31way too methodical.” Like, there’s the problem-solution lead, and I’m just gonna
2:07:35keep hitting the same... I realized it was starting to look exactly like
2:07:38everyone else’s. So I said, “Man, I’m gonna play the game of being...” And
2:07:42that’s exactly what I’m telling you.
2:07:44It’s like the guy is seeing this on WhatsApp, someone sent it to him. So I’m
2:07:48gonna report something, be sensational about something, be curious about
2:07:51something. I’m not gonna follow a problem-solution or contrast formula. No,
2:07:55man. I want him to see it because he’s interested in the subject. If my audience
2:07:59hates the traditional 9-to-5, hates their boss,
2:08:01and hates the government in some way, I need to use
2:08:03those elements in the lead, because that’s what gets their attention.
2:08:06When something is reported like that, I go in that direction, man. But I can
2:08:10go... there are other approaches too. We were running 12 different leads
2:08:14simultaneously, and I basically nailed all 12 back then.
2:08:17We kept them running because, just like with traffic, we don’t pause creatives. I
2:08:21said, “I’m not gonna pause the lead, because the lead is gonna become
2:08:24remarketing.” Man, we were spending 160,000 a day. I said, “This shit is
2:08:28gonna become remarketing for these leads, just like...” Because on Facebook, nobody
2:08:32stops the campaigns. I mean, nobody stops the ads,
2:08:34okay? You have 10 ads in an ad set. I’m not gonna
2:08:37stop them because sometimes one is selling
2:08:39because it’s remarketing to people who didn’t buy.
2:08:41I can’t pause the ones that didn’t sell. I’m gonna do the same thing with the
2:08:44leads. That was another thing that changed the game for us. I started
2:08:47letting them run longer because we had a lot of leads running. It was remarketing,
2:08:51so it didn’t saturate. And we had everything:
2:08:53problem-solution, contrast, something like a curiosity
2:08:56loop, which was pretty cool. But I said, “Man, I think this is a good game, and a
2:09:00lot of it is gonna depend on the creative to make it work.
2:09:04But I said, “When it comes to retention, I didn’t have the retention I wanted.” It
2:09:08was around 50 to 55, and I wanted 60 or more. I wanted something where the guy
2:09:12would think, “Man, this is crazy.” So I started thinking, “Dude, I need to think
2:09:16like this guy.” Something my partner Gustavo says, and I really like it, is:
2:09:19you need to think like the guy, like the avatar, man.
2:09:22We think way above that, it’s natural. We have to lower the level of awareness.
2:09:26What would this guy actually see? I started imagining myself as him, like,
2:09:29man, he’s a guy who’s into politics, so he’s gonna keep sending this thing around
2:09:33because it relates to his everyday life.
2:09:35The 6x1, whether the guy is gonna work more or less. And it has everything to do
2:09:38with my problem mechanism. It’s something he cares about, something he was told was
2:09:42gonna happen, then it got pushed back because it was only supposed to happen
2:09:45after the election. So he’s gonna get pissed off, and I’m gonna create that
2:09:48feeling, and then come in with something that’s
2:09:50basically defending what he already believes.
2:09:52And I’m also bringing a solution. So, is this something that can be used across
2:09:56different offers? Yeah, but I started thinking about it... today, I create
2:10:00leads as if they were actual content. That’s what sets me apart.
2:10:04Man, tell me more about that. Actually, do you know who originally came up with
2:10:09this concept of making the sales message look and feel like real content?
2:10:15Oh, I think you’re talking about that... that Super
2:10:18Content concept? No, it was Gary Bencivenga. You
2:10:21thought I was talking about Max? Because I’ve heard
2:10:24you talk about those Super Content pieces a few times.
2:10:27There’s Max’s podcast, guys. He’s the CEO of Adapta.
2:10:30But it was Gary Bencivenga, that same guy I told you about earlier, you know what I mean?
2:10:35Awesome. Man, let me go back to the topic of leads, okay? Because I want to spend a
2:10:40little more time talking about that. So... we have this lead that, at least
2:10:45in theory, is universal, like you were saying, and can be applied pretty broadly.
2:10:50So, for your mentees, what type of lead do you think works best for them?
2:10:54Because, man, what you just talked about when it comes to building the argument,
2:10:58that’s advanced stuff. And if you’re at home right now and you want to create an
2:11:03eight-figure VSL, or multiple eight-figure VSLs, I think this is a great path to take.
2:11:08But it’s definitely more complex, no doubt about it. And there’s nothing wrong
2:11:12with getting it right, because obviously some people say, “Man, I made 40,000
2:11:15reais with a VSL.” It’s not supposed to be easy.
2:11:18There’s definitely a certain level of effort involved, but honestly, I think
2:11:22doing a launch is much easier, for example, once you’ve learned how to do
2:11:26it. But either way, there’s no doubt that this works. Like I told you, behind the
2:11:31scenes, I’ve also built two-step mechanisms before, and I’ve seen them work really well.
2:11:36And we could do a five-hour podcast just about this, okay? There’d be a lot to
2:11:40talk about, man. If the guys want it, we'll do it.
2:11:43But man, when we’re talking about leads for your mentees, we have this universal
2:11:47lead you mentioned, where I take something current in the market and
2:11:51connect it to a problem that pretty much everyone has. That lets me create
2:11:55identification with a lot of people, which is great. But for the people you
2:11:59actually teach, what do you see working most consistently?
2:12:02Is there some kind of lead or process that they usually follow? I don’t know if
2:12:06there’s, like, a basic lead that most people use, where it’s basically, “Say
2:12:10this, then say this, then say that.” Yeah, when it comes
2:12:13to leads... people tend to have pretty strong lead-writing
2:12:16skills because a lot of them, since we work with the launch market, the guy
2:12:21produces... Actually, man, hold on. Isn't that something that confuses people in the
2:12:25launch market? Because a lead can... It does, man.
2:12:27A lead can mean the person who signs up, or it can mean the beginning of the VSL.
2:12:32Sometimes I actually call it “the capture” when I’m talking to people.
2:12:36Instead of saying, “We’re gonna work on the lead,” I say, “We’re gonna work on
2:12:40the VSL capture, the attention capture,” meaning the beginning. Just to keep the
2:12:45idea as clear and educational as possible.
2:12:47But man, just one quick insight here. Since we work a lot with people who
2:12:52create content, because naturally, that’s what people in the launch market have
2:12:56always done, right? One of the main things they do is create content.
2:13:00So naturally, most of the people we’ve worked with are already pretty good at
2:13:03using triggers and grabbing attention with something. They usually come up with
2:13:07the ideas on their own, based on what they know works. I don’t really turn it
2:13:10into a strict rule and say, “You have to do it this way, or you have to do it that way.”
2:13:15There’s a whole lead playbook, with
2:13:16problem-solution leads and several different types.
2:13:18A playbook? What’s that?
2:13:20I always give them documents. And I tell them, “Man, just do it and let’s figure
2:13:24it out.” Because normally, when I teach these guys, whether we spend two days
2:13:27together or it’s online for a month, they start understanding the whole thing.
2:13:31Since they’re good content creators, I tell them, “Man, think of it like the
2:13:35beginning of the content...”
2:13:36So, the ones I like the most, and the ones I see working best, are leads built
2:13:40around revealing something, and then connecting that to the mechanisms. So,
2:13:44for example... Yeah, give me an example. I'll give you an
2:13:47example. There’s... like, that hidden-block mechanism from one of our mentees.
2:13:52You start by talking about it like this: “I discovered why your Instagram isn’t
2:13:55delivering your content, and it has everything to do with a block you’re not
2:13:59seeing. In this video, I’m gonna show you how to get out of this block, but first,
2:14:03I’m gonna show you how you got into it.” Something with that kind of reveal. I
2:14:07really like that because, as we say with VSLs, it’s a striptease. It’s all about curiosity.
2:14:11So it’s all about things like discovering something, “It arrived in Brazil, it came
2:14:15this way,” “I’m gonna reveal something to you,” things along those lines. Since I’m
2:14:19taking a more educational approach, I always make the beginning easy for him to
2:14:23understand. And then, as he gradually understands the VSL and how it’s built,
2:14:27he starts picking up different elements and bringing them back into the beginning.
2:14:31Ah, or, man, I’m seeing that content talking about this in this way is working
2:14:35really well. So I say, “Dude, take your best creative or your best piece of
2:14:38content and try to turn it into a lead.”
2:14:41“What did you say in it?” Because I also teach people to use mechanisms in their
2:14:45creatives. Some people make these mechanisms, and they work really well,
2:14:48they scale. I tell them, “Man, this creative would make a great lead. Let’s
2:14:51put it there and see.” Take the actual creative and use it as the lead. Just
2:14:55give it a little context. Re-record the ending to connect it to the mechanism
2:14:58that comes next, just to create a link between the words.
2:15:01And it usually works. Obviously, some work better than others, but when it
2:15:06comes to teaching them, I always lean toward that revelation-style approach. Of
2:15:10course, there are all kinds of approaches, like problem-solution, and
2:15:14then there’s the one I call the sensationalist approach.
2:15:17Do you remember exactly what that hidden-block lead you just mentioned sounded like?
2:15:22Not exactly. I don’t remember the exact wording, I’d have to pull it up. But
2:15:25I thought it was interesting because you said, “I discovered why Instagram
2:15:28isn’t delivering your content.” That caught my attention.
2:15:31Because he’s coming from the creative wanting to understand what’s going on,
2:15:34since that’s what was sold to him there. You start by saying, “Man, I
2:15:37discovered...” and the guy’s like, “Alright, tell me.”
2:15:39Then it keeps going. And it has everything to do with that
2:15:41hidden block, so you tell them... I don’t mention the
2:15:43hidden block yet. I don’t reveal it yet. Then you can say
2:15:46“block” or not. “There’s something that’s holding you back.” The idea is for the
2:15:49guy to understand what’s holding him back.
2:15:51It’s not about selling the solution too upfront. Sometimes that’s the whole point.
2:15:55I started realizing that sometimes it works really well to sell the problem
2:15:58first and then sell the solution. You can hint at the solution in the beginning,
2:16:02but I want him to keep watching the next section. So I’m not gonna worry too much
2:16:05about the end of the VSL. Instead, I’ll keep selling the problem throughout the process.
2:16:09I did a lot of that with ours. It’s always about why it’s not working for
2:16:13you, not exactly what’s going to make it work. But do you think
2:16:16it’s interesting to add that solution element to the lead?
2:16:18I have several leads that have these elements.
2:16:21You can do both, you know what I mean? You can bring
2:16:23in the problem... Yeah, I usually include both.
2:16:25I could say something like, “There’s a block. I discovered why Instagram’s
2:16:29algorithm isn’t delivering your content, and in this video, I’m gonna show you
2:16:33exactly why that’s happening.” Done. That’s sentence number one. Then sentence
2:16:38number two could be, “What I discovered is that there’s a block that’s been
2:16:42happening recently here in Brazil because of this, this, and this, and I’m gonna
2:16:46show you exactly what’s behind it.”
2:16:48And this is what’s causing your content not to get delivered. And that’s why this
2:16:53problem happens, this, this, and this.” Then I’d say, “However, I also discovered
2:16:57a new way to get around this problem, which I’m calling, I don’t know, some
2:17:01kind of code. I’m calling it the solution mechanism, and this could finally be what
2:17:06allows you to get your content delivered and actually start enjoying the benefits.”
2:17:10I’m a little afraid to reveal the name at the beginning because even the way the
2:17:14name is constructed has a meaning behind it. So I worry that, like, man, for
2:17:18example, a combination of words might sound like crap when you first hear it
2:17:22without any context. Like, there’s a combination of... this is just a
2:17:25hypothetical, okay? It sounds bad to me, so I’d probably say there’s something...
2:17:29But how do you decide that, man?
2:17:33So you don’t decide upfront, you put it out there and test to see if it works.
2:17:37Exactly, for example... But do you have some kind
2:17:39of mental framework that you use? I’ll tell you
2:17:41what mine is. But when you’re creating the VSL, do you have something in your
2:17:44head that helps you decide beforehand whether you’re gonna put something in
2:17:47there, whether you’re gonna use a certain word or not? I tend not
2:17:50to mention the mechanism. I usually don’t. But I have some where
2:17:53people already know about it, like the Singapore system. There was a point where
2:17:57people, like I told you, even Gustavo’s doorman, my partner, asked if we were the
2:18:01guys who worked with Singapore... with Guilherme, who had the Singapore system.
2:18:05I said, “Man, that name is already known.” So I brought it into a lead, for example.
2:18:10In this video, you will understand the Singapore system and why it is so amazing."
2:18:14Why is the doorman of my building... That’s cool. And
2:18:16why is it gonna work for you, even if you have all these
2:18:19objections, even if you don’t have enough time, or whatever else comes up. You
2:18:22know, all the standard objections.
2:18:24Because I’ve seen that work. But I always like to keep things mysterious, so I
2:18:28don’t know if I should reveal it... I think the name is part of the mystery.
2:18:31When he sees the name, he’s like, “Damn, it feels like the name was built around
2:18:35it.” He looks at it and goes, “Wow, everything connected. That’s really cool.
2:18:38It brought all these things together with the name.” Overload syndrome. Every time
2:18:42I come back to it, I do that, the guy remembers all those layers of overload.
2:18:45So I like to keep that mystery, because I’m going with this striptease approach.
2:18:48And if I’m going that route, I’m already revealing something.
2:18:51And with the striptease, actually, I wanted to reveal it, I wanted to take the
2:18:55clothes off at that point with the name too. I think a lot about the creativity
2:18:59behind the name, so that when you finally reveal it, it feels like a really cool
2:19:02payoff. But, yeah, I tend not to include it. So my framework is basically: “Man,
2:19:06don’t put the name in at first.” But I’ve already tested it thousands of times with
2:19:10the name included, so it’s not really a problem.
2:19:12You wouldn’t need to say the name of the mechanism, maybe just explain how it works.
2:19:16Exactly... okay. In my case, I’d say, “There’s a system that came to Brazil
2:19:20that puts money in your pocket without you having to do nearly as much work as
2:19:23you think you’d have to,” or something along those lines.
2:19:26I had a VSL that I did that was about rejuvenation. That was the niche I worked
2:19:30with the most, you know? It was wrinkles and skin. It’s a really good niche, man.
2:19:34The King of cosmetics. Man, women buy a lot, and
2:19:37they keep coming back because they understand it’s
2:19:39a treatment and that they need to keep using it. So the LTV was really high.
2:19:43And I remember I had one where I’d say something like, “Man, this method is
2:19:47different from everything you’ve ever tried. Why is that?” Then I’d go into the
2:19:51explanation of how the mechanism works, but I wouldn’t actually reveal what the
2:19:55mechanism was. That way, the person wouldn’t get curious, go search for it
2:19:58somewhere else, and leave.
2:20:00I’d say, “Because instead of trying to rejuvenate a skin cell that’s already
2:20:04old, this method throws those old cells in the trash and creates brand-new cells
2:20:08that are already young, just like the skin you had when you were 30 years old.”
2:20:12So I’m explaining the actual process and how the method works, without necessarily
2:20:16revealing the mechanism itself.
2:20:18And the cool thing about explaining this, man, is that it’s not just about
2:20:21explaining how the problem and the solution work. You can bring in other
2:20:25elements from the VSL too, because all of that helps create even more curiosity in
2:20:29the lead. And I have this concept I call psychological density. Basically, let’s
2:20:33say I have a piece of copy that’s 500 words long.
2:20:36I’m gonna have a bunch of curiosity elements, a bunch of proof, and a bunch
2:20:40of promises. So how many curiosity points are actually in there? Is there one? Two?
2:20:44Three? Four? My theory is that the more you have, and the more curiosity you can
2:20:48create within that small amount of time, the more we can increase retention,
2:20:52because we’re creating more open loops for the person. Several spikes of curiosity.
2:20:56Yeah, because maybe if I didn’t create enough curiosity around the problem, I
2:21:00can create it around the solution. And usually toward the end of the lead, we
2:21:04have those bullets or fascinations, like, “And on top of that, you’re also gonna
2:21:07learn...” curiosity element one, two, and three. Those are additional secondary
2:21:11hooks that we put into the lead specifically to pull the person in and
2:21:15keep them engaged all the way to the end.
2:21:17Actually, I learned a lot about fascinations here on the podcast too, the
2:21:20one you did with... I already knew about them, but I saw you and Filemon using
2:21:23them a lot in practice. I usually use fascinations more toward the end of the
2:21:27offer, to explain what the person is gonna get from each step along the way.
2:21:30But that’s really interesting too.
2:21:33I see it exactly the same way. I need to stack a bunch of curiosity. But when it
2:21:37comes to the lead, I think, like, I also really like explaining the mechanism. For
2:21:41example, with the system, I really like bringing in some sensationalism, like
2:21:45something just arrived here, and it’s a system that... for example, if I were
2:21:49speaking to people who already know Shopee, I
2:21:51could approach it in a completely different way.
2:21:54There’s a code that makes you show up on Shopee in front of everyone without even
2:21:58spending money. But I’m not selling that, I’m not... my idea isn’t to sell to the
2:22:02Shopee guy, but... that would be the mechanism. The Singapore code would still
2:22:06be the mechanism for someone who already sells on Shopee.
2:22:09But I could start the lead like this, because then I’m explaining the
2:22:12mechanism. I’m saying the name, Singapore Code, but I could just call it a code.
2:22:15There’s a way to make yourself show up in front of everyone. For someone who
2:22:18already sells on Shopee and wants to scale, that could be good, for example.
2:22:21That would be exactly a case of using the mechanism at the beginning.
2:22:24So, man, I think there are, like, a lot of different ways you can approach that.
2:22:28Naturally, I tend to avoid doing it, but if I were targeting that specific
2:22:32audience, I think I’d probably use it more often, because that guy is already
2:22:35expecting something specific, something... technical, and that kind of
2:22:39thing can actually work really well. Man, let me tell you
2:22:41about a lead formula I’ve always used, and it’s always worked
2:22:44for me. And because it kept working every single time... it basically became my
2:22:49bread and butter. I’d use that formula over and over, it would work, and then
2:22:53eventually I’d just go crazy and decide to try something completely different.
2:22:57I want a pen and paper, man, to take notes. Relax, man, it's being recorded.
2:23:02It's just that I want to apply it tomorrow already.
2:23:04Man, yeah, so this formula can give you that revelation-style lead you were
2:23:08talking about, okay? But I actually pulled this formula from several
2:23:12different books I’ve read, and then I started putting the ideas together to
2:23:16create something that worked really well.
2:23:19And this is where it starts, okay? The beginning of the formula comes from
2:23:22Evaldo Albuquerque’s book, The 16-Word Sales Letter, which is gonna show up on
2:23:26screen. It’s question number one, where he talks about the questions you need to
2:23:29ask yourself when creating your sales letter.
2:23:32And also a little bit from the book Kickstart Copywriting System by Clayton
2:23:36Makepeace, which is also gonna show up on screen. It’s one of the best books, if
2:23:40not the best book on copywriting ever, especially practical copywriting, where
2:23:43you can actually follow the step-by-step process. And, man, it’s like a thousand
2:23:47pages. It’s a dense book, you know?
2:23:50But here’s how it works, okay? I always start by asking the person... why is
2:23:55this different or unique? What do I actually have to gain from this, and why should I care?
2:24:02What’s the benefit? And how do I know this is actually true? I try to combine
2:24:06all three of those elements into one single sentence, okay? The benefit, what
2:24:10makes it different, and why I should believe it. That’s my VSL opening.
2:24:15So, for example, alright, what you said about Instagram. You said, “The Instagram
2:24:20algorithm isn’t delivering... your content as expected, and I discovered
2:24:24exactly why this is happening and what’s causing it behind the scenes right now.”
2:24:29And then in this video, I’m going to show you how to reverse this... so your
2:24:33content can start getting delivered again. And making it a little stronger,
2:24:37right? We could say, “Man, I discovered... a method, a system, I don’t know,
2:24:41an Instagram system that can actually get your content being delivered again.” So I
2:24:45showed them a clear promise. I basically told them, “Man, I’m going to help you
2:24:49get your content delivered again, so people can actually see it.”
2:24:53There’s the proof element there, talking about the Instagram system, which shows
2:24:57that, man, there’s something behind this that can actually produce results. But
2:25:01the part about what makes it different was a little lacking.
2:25:05If I had started by talking about some law, for example, like, “Now in 2026, the
2:25:10Brazilian Supreme Court passed a new social media censorship law, and that
2:25:14ended up affecting you and the way the algorithm delivers your content. But I
2:25:18discovered a new way to keep your profile from being affected by that censorship
2:25:22and get your content being delivered again.”
2:25:25All of that with what I call the “Instagram system.” I hit all the points.
2:25:28I made that revelation, which is something different that’s happening...
2:25:31with a benefit and a proof element. So this is the opening, this is the first sentence.
2:25:37After that, okay... actually, in the rejuvenation niche, I could say something
2:25:42like this: the “I discovered a new way for you to... like, to
2:25:46rejuvenate.” That’s not very strong. I could add some proof to it, so I could
2:25:51say, “The University of São Paulo discovered a new way to help you rejuvenate.”
2:25:56I added the proof element. Let’s add even more proof and curiosity to it. Let’s
2:26:00also bring in a little bit of the mechanism and make it even more specific.
2:26:04I’d say something like, “The University of São Paulo discovered that something
2:26:08called Egyptian glue can make you look five to ten years younger in a very short
2:26:12amount of time.” So you can see how we took the exact same concept, the exact
2:26:16same promise, and simply added proof and curiosity.
2:26:19That’s the first sentence. So, why is this different or unique? What’s the
2:26:23benefit? Where’s the proof?
2:26:25Then, below the lead, man, everything I’m gonna do is add more and more proof that
2:26:29this is actually true, using different types of proof elements, and then I’m
2:26:33gonna finish my lead with curiosity elements only. And from there, basically,
2:26:37what I need to figure out is the exact order of the different proof elements I’m
2:26:41going to put in, and how I’m going to sequence them throughout the lead so
2:26:44everything flows naturally and keeps building curiosity.
2:26:47That would probably be the thing, that’s basically the definition of the opening
2:26:51sentence. But then, how would it work, okay? In the rejuvenation example, I
2:26:55could say something like, “Look, Harvard University discovered that this thing
2:26:58right here can make you rejuvenate by... so much over a certain period of time.”
2:27:03Alright. So I made my opening sentence following the three concepts I talked
2:27:07about. For the second sentence, I could say something like, I imagine I’m going
2:27:12to use a proof element, of a... specifically a demonstration of the
2:27:15mechanism, combined with an element of curiosity to keep the person interested.
2:27:20I could say something like, “This is different from anything you’ve ever tried
2:27:24before, because unlike other methods that try to rejuvenate old skin, this actually
2:27:27forces your body to create... Actually, this forces your body to create
2:27:31new skin with young cells, the same kind you had when you were 20 years old.” So I
2:27:34explained why it’s different, with the promise built right into it. The person
2:27:38thinks, “Man, this is interesting. I’ve never seen anything like this before.
2:27:41This could actually work for me.” Then I can still finish with the identification element.
2:27:46I could say something like, “That’s why this is giving hope to women who have
2:27:50already tried everything, only to end up wasting time and money.” That’s the proof
2:27:54element there from the... from the mechanism. I’m explaining why this method
2:27:58is different and why it could actually work. Then, underneath that, I could add
2:28:01another proof element. I could say something like, “This is already working
2:28:05for women of all ages, like Maria, who used to look like this, and now looks like this.”
2:28:10It could be that. Or I could add a qualification element, explaining who
2:28:13this is for and who it isn’t for. I could say something like, “So if you feel like
2:28:17you’re too old to find a boyfriend, if you’re unhappy with your skin becoming
2:28:20more and more loose, if you don’t even recognize yourself anymore when you look
2:28:24in the mirror, watch this video all the way to the end, because it could
2:28:27completely change your life.” Another proof element,
2:28:30for example, humility. Showing that you’re also
2:28:33genuinely surprised by what’s happening... I could say something like... “I
2:28:38know this sounds too good to be true, but in my 20 years working as a specialist in
2:28:43this field, I’ve honestly never seen anything as powerful as this before.”
2:28:49And I only truly believed it after I saw dozens of sciet... scientif... scientific
2:28:53articles, damn it, proving that this was actually true.
2:28:58So, I could put any of these three proof elements underneath my opening sentence.
2:29:03Obviously, the order of those elements can change. I always put the most
2:29:07powerful proof element right up front... at the beginning, and I usually believe
2:29:12that’s the mechanism, that... that mechanism reveal. Because the others are
2:29:16like, “Oh, just like Maria.” Anyone can make a testimonial.
2:29:21Or if I talk about who it’s for and who it isn’t for, man, anyone can do that.
2:29:25Every VSL is gonna have that. But that mechanism, that unique thing of yours
2:29:30that you invented, that you created, man, that’s the rarest thing, the most unique,
2:29:35the hardest thing for someone to replicate.
2:29:38And then, for example, let’s say I used those three, okay? So... I have my
2:29:43opening sentence and those three proof elements I talked about. Then my lead
2:29:47would look something like this: “The University of São Paulo has just
2:29:51discovered a... new method that can make any woman look younger.”
2:29:55“They’re calling this Egyptian glue, and some women are looking five, ten, and
2:29:59even fifteen years younger in an incredibly short amount of time.” Opening
2:30:02sentence, then proof element number one:
2:30:05“This... is the most powerful thing available right now when it comes to
2:30:09rejuvenation, because unlike conventional methods that try to rejuvenate skin
2:30:12that’s already old, this method creates completely new skin, with young cells
2:30:16that are naturally full of collagen. That’s why it’s giving so much hope to
2:30:20women who have already tried everything, but
2:30:23still haven’t been able to rejuvenate their skin.”
2:30:26Next proof element: “I know this sounds too good to be true,” that
2:30:30humility element I mentioned earlier. “I know this sounds too good to be true,
2:30:34but, man, it really is. I only truly believed it after I saw dozens of
2:30:38scientific articles confirming that this is actually true, and I also had to see
2:30:43this method work with my own patients before I could fully believe it myself.”
2:30:48So, that already kind of creates an indirect testimonial with that curiosity
2:30:52element. Or, if I have a story there, like, I don’t know, an emotional story, I
2:30:56could say: “And I only believed it when I saw this work for my mom, who had never
2:31:00been able to get results before, and now, finally, she actually did.”
2:31:04So I’m already giving a preview of the story that I can tell later too. And then
2:31:08I’d say something like: “So, if you feel this way, if you feel that way, if you
2:31:12already believe there’s no hope left for your situation, watch this video all the
2:31:16way to the end, because you’re going to discover exactly what this new method is
2:31:19and how you can apply it at home today.”
2:31:23And then I finish with curiosity: “And on top of that, if you watch this all the
2:31:27way to the end, I’m also going to show you which food you’re eating today that’s
2:31:32probably making you look years older without you even realizing it.” “And
2:31:36I’ll also reveal the exact banana recipe you can make at home today that
2:31:40could make you look five years younger by tomorrow morning.”
2:31:44And also a super simple, super quick way for you to... actually, a way for you
2:31:49to spend just 10 cents a day to apply this new method that some actresses are
2:31:54paying tens of thousands of reais for to rejuvenate themselves.
2:31:59“Let’s get started.” And then we move into the rest of the VSL as a whole. So,
2:32:04man, this formula I talked about... this sentence, it’s really simple.
2:32:08Like, it’s one sentence. What’s the promise? Why
2:32:11is it different? What am I gonna get out of this?
2:32:14What’s the undeniable proof? In a single sentence, so the person can immediately
2:32:18see, “Okay, this is the value proposition. This is what makes sense.”
2:32:22Then, three or four proof elements, each with their own promises, in whatever
2:32:26order you think is most interesting and makes the most sense. And then you finish
2:32:30with curiosity. I’m even going to add this to my documents, my guide, because I already
2:32:35have several different lead formulas in there. There are 12 different ways to
2:32:39create a lead. And I really like the one you mentioned, where you reveal exactly
2:32:43what she’s doing wrong. I really like this one
2:32:45because sometimes it works better than revealing a
2:32:48solution. That can feel too salesy. It feels more like, “Man, it’s not that
2:32:52you’re stupid. I’m gonna tell you, look, you’re making this mistake right here.” I
2:32:56think that creates a lot of curiosity.
2:32:59But I’m going to put this into an equation so anyone can take something
2:33:02from it about revelation, because I think that’s the best way to do it. I think
2:33:07they all revolve around this, but having an equation is the best way to create a
2:33:11lead for anyone, in any niche, you know what I mean? With the right premises
2:33:15about the mechanisms further down the line.
2:33:18Absolutely. We have to have all of that defined before we can put it into the
2:33:22lead. But since I come from an engineering background, man, I
2:33:25created... Me too, you know? Really? What kind of engineering?
2:33:28Computer engineering. Damn, awesome man. I taught
2:33:33at the University where Einstein graduated, man
2:33:37I told a bunch of lies man. And the Swiss believed it.
2:33:42Is that why you went to Switzerland? I worked at ETH, at
2:33:44Einstein’s university over there. Crazy, right?
2:33:47I worked, well, not exactly as a teacher, right?
2:33:49Like, the professor would go there to hand out a test, and I’d basically be
2:33:53there as a teaching assistant. That still counts as teaching. I was an authority, man.
2:33:57If I wanted to collect their tests, I could. You
2:34:00know what I mean? It’s all about perception, man.
2:34:03And because of that background, I really like applying mathematics to copywriting.
2:34:07So for me, everything comes down to formulas, man. I really like working with formulas.
2:34:12And it’s always worked for me, man. It always has.
2:34:15I’m actually planning to make a video about it.
2:34:17I can explain how I derive it, the same way people derive the quadratic formula,
2:34:22like ax² + bx + c = 0, that whole thing. You can actually derive copywriting,
2:34:27starting from a problem, okay? Starting from the idea that copywriting is sales
2:34:32multiplied, you can derive the entire theory of copywriting. All of it. You can
2:34:38even get all the way to RMBC.
2:34:40And I’m gonna make a video about this too, okay, man? Because I’m kind of a
2:34:43nerd. If this video is already out, well... it won’t be, right, man? But
2:34:47eventually it will be. So stay tuned, guys. Yeah, but I use it for all of that stuff, man.
2:34:52So man, let me ask you just one last thing Just a
2:34:55quick side note, actually. What’s his name again?
2:34:58Hey, Will, he’s been talking nonstop for like 20 minutes here, maybe 30 minutes.
2:35:01But it wasn’t an hour, right, man? He’s trying to break the record. I’m not gonna
2:35:05let him break the record.
2:35:07But it wasn't one hour, right? But we almost went... That stays with you. Congratulations.
2:35:12I’m not gonna be able to top that. You will let the guest
2:35:15have the record. It's alright. There’s just one thing I won’t
2:35:18let happen, him beating me at FIFA. Perfect Actually, you can
2:35:21do whatever the hell you want, man. Just not FIFA. That’s not
2:35:23happening, I can’t let that happen. I need to protect the VTurb brand.
2:35:27Caio over there knows. Wait, where is it? Oh, right. See? even ran away. Yeah, right?
2:35:32Yeah, run away. Man, let me ask you one last
2:35:35question, okay? About this whole VSL thing we’ve
2:35:38been talking about.
2:35:42Where does the story actually come into play, okay? Actually, in your VSL,
2:35:48the one that generated 40 million... so far, right?
2:35:5240 million just this year, right, guys? So far,
2:35:55it could scale much higher. Hopefully. Me too, bro
2:35:58Then you give me a little more money, and that’ll
2:36:01help with the... Of course, always loyalty with VTurb. Nice.
2:36:04Yeah, but, man, with those standard VSLs, like, let's say, top-of-funnel VSLs,
2:36:09someone who’s making their very first one will probably go with something much more
2:36:14step-by-step, more structured, and broken down into clear sections. They’ll probably even...
2:36:22It’s not gonna be as creative. And there’s clearly a step-by-step story
2:36:25structure there. It’s basically like, “Okay, let’s start. I was struggling, I
2:36:29tried all kinds of different things, nothing was working, everything kept
2:36:33going wrong, until I finally discovered that there was something holding me back,
2:36:37and that something was the problem mechanism.”
2:36:39“I’m gonna explain it to you. Then this and that happened. And I’ll explain how I
2:36:43solved it and how I created this solution.” In your mentees, okay?
2:36:46When you teach your mentees how to structure and tell the story, how do you
2:36:49approach that part? Is there anything specific that you think is especially important here?
2:36:53Or do you think it's a standard story that will already work?
2:36:57Because there are several different ways, for us to create a series and structure the story.
2:37:02I think people who use storytelling usually approach it with a launch mindset.
2:37:05When I used to do launches, like I told you, the story was something that could
2:37:09be really powerful, but it could also be really destructive within a launch CPA,
2:37:12the way it used to be done. That’s why I started mixing the story with the
2:37:16content, so it wouldn’t turn into something boring. People would be like,
2:37:19“Fuck, where’s the content?” And I’d end up telling the story.
2:37:22Yeah, obviously, a good story told well can be really powerful. But for a story
2:37:26to be told well, it needs to include the mechanism elements at the same time, so
2:37:30everything stays connected and makes sense. Now, one thing I brought into VSLs
2:37:34is this: the first thing is, man, the story should primarily be built around
2:37:38showing the person how you discovered it and how you ended up finding that mechanism.
2:37:43I think how you discovered it is really important. And then... the second thing
2:37:47is that, in the story, you have to step away from yourself a little bit. You have
2:37:51to be more like a storyteller, a messenger explaining how you discovered
2:37:54it. So you discovered something because of this, and then you figured out how to
2:37:58systematize it so someone else could use it in a more structured and developed way.
2:38:03So for me, that’s where the story comes in. It’s not really about the hero’s
2:38:06journey, okay? Because in launches, it’s very common to lean into the hero’s journey.
2:38:10That I was this way, I was that way. That’s not to say it doesn’t work.
2:38:13In fact, a lot of VSLs that worked really well have a hero’s journey. It all
2:38:16depends on how you put the whole thing together. There’s nothing wrong with it.
2:38:20But I always like to take the story in the direction of how you discovered it
2:38:24and how you compiled everything. So it makes sense: “Man, I discovered this
2:38:28through this,” and since I’m showing it to you, how did I package it in a way
2:38:33that makes it easier and more filtered for the
2:38:35person receiving it? That’s what I did with VSLs.
2:38:38I discovered some things, I tested them, and honestly, even today, I keep testing
2:38:42methodologies to deliver something more ready for someone. Period.
2:38:45But I’m not some copywriting genius. So what do I do? I’ll give you an example
2:38:49that I think is really interesting from the financial market. We also have a
2:38:52pretty big mentee in that market, and I said, “Man, this guy probably doesn’t
2:38:56care that much about your story, or about how you made money in the financial
2:39:00market, because he already has a background working in finance.”
2:39:03So I think it’s much better to take the story in the direction of how you
2:39:06discovered this, because you were actually on the inside. And after seeing
2:39:10how things were done from that side, you decided to leave and start showing people
2:39:13what really goes on behind the banks, explaining why savings accounts are such
2:39:17a shitty option, for example.
2:39:18So the story is really about that. It’s not about the hero’s journey the whole
2:39:22time. It’s about how he discovered something, because the whole point is the
2:39:25person listening. I’m here as the messenger, just like Guilherme. I
2:39:28discovered that Shopee was a great opportunity way back, before everyone else.
2:39:31But I was lazy, and I thought there had to be an easier way. I mean, I wanted
2:39:35there to be an easier way, until I got the opportunity to meet some people. So I
2:39:38thought, man, I’m gonna have to make money by working really hard.
2:39:41But I wanted to go against that whole idea of working hard. Until I realized
2:39:45there was a way to make money with less work. That’s when I discovered the code.
2:39:48And this code was also really complicated to understand. So I put in the work,
2:39:51because I was already making some money, and I spent all my money organizing it in
2:39:55a way that anyone could use. Because I use the code in my own operation, and the
2:39:59same way I use it here, the same system you’re
2:40:01using, he actually uses it in his own operation too.
2:40:03So I’m giving you exactly what I actually use myself. Period. That’s it. So the
2:40:07story plays a big part in all of this. There’s a part of the story where
2:40:10Guilherme creates an identification with the problem mechanism, because he... man,
2:40:14he had always worked really hard without getting much in return. Then he
2:40:18discovered Shopee too and realized that a lot of people were saying it was good,
2:40:21and he validated that it really is. Shopee is good, but just having Shopee isn’t enough.
2:40:26And then the story is really about how he discovered the code. So it’s not...
2:40:29people tend to focus way too much on the journey: “No, because I did this, I went
2:40:32through that.” Man, that’s cool, it makes a lot of sense. But from what I’ve seen,
2:40:36I think it should be more focused on how you discovered the thing and how you
2:40:39filtered it down into something you could actually deliver to the person. Period.
2:40:43So in the case of, I don’t know, the algorithm, man, I was someone who, fuck,
2:40:47wasn’t getting any views at all, until I saw a video of some guy talking about
2:40:50this or that. Then you go into how you discovered it. But beyond that, I started
2:40:54mapping out the right combinations from a bunch of different people for a bunch of
2:40:58different niches, because I had this job where... I was a social media manager, I
2:41:01don’t know. That’s not part of the story.
2:41:03I said, “Man, if I compile all of this into a system, I hired someone to build
2:41:07the system, man, I created something that does it automatically.”
2:41:09“I’m delivering it to you.” So it doesn’t depend that much on that. People think
2:41:13that when someone from launches moves into DR and tells a story, it’s all about
2:41:16that person. Because, man, why does white direct response work? Because there’s an
2:41:20expert, but also because there’s someone putting their face on the line, but not
2:41:24necessarily because of the knowledge that person has from creating something.
2:41:27People want to, like, if I’m the one who created it, I created a new method, but
2:41:31Guilherme didn’t create anything.
2:41:32Understand, my expert didn’t create anything. He took what already existed,
2:41:35filtered it, and packaged it in a way that could be sold. This person isn’t
2:41:39going to have access to this code anywhere else, but he didn’t create it.
2:41:42The Chinese created it. The platform itself tells you if you have an XYZ
2:41:45score. It’s always just repackaging what already exists. And people think that
2:41:49because they’re the expert, they have to jump in and start selling their own
2:41:53story. “I did this, I’m the guy.” Because, like I said, anyone can claim
2:41:57they did this or that. And the rule with cold traffic is that you’re telling a
2:42:00story to someone who has never seen you before, and sometimes you start talking
2:42:04too much about yourself.
2:42:06It's more about how you found out. You've already told a bunch of stories there
2:42:09about the whole mechanism. Then you come in like, okay, but why did this guy do
2:42:12this? How did he figure it all out? To validate it even more. Then you go on
2:42:15explaining it in a way that backs it all up. So... background history, right?
2:42:20And I'm the guy who mixes things up.
2:42:23But on a methodological level for the mentee, and it already worked.
2:42:27I place it in the discovery of that problem. It could be in the problem
2:42:30itself, or it could be over in the solution. In those small parts... of the vehicle.
2:42:35Man, so for example, like this guy from the bank, when he gets deeper into his
2:42:38story, it's like, "Why am I showing you this, and how do I know this is the real
2:42:41problem? Because I worked there, that's my name... and I worked there, and every
2:42:45single day we saw this happening. There's a system in there that only the people on
2:42:48the inside know about. And when I asked to leave,
2:42:51it was exactly because I saw my own family..."
2:42:54getting screwed over because of it... And then I said, "Man, I need to carry this
2:42:57knowledge forward, it's knowledge that's hidden." And then he'll explain why the
2:43:00savings account doesn't work... But the authority's way up there, because he
2:43:03didn't use authority to break the rule, he used it to say he was the only one who
2:43:06could've figured out why he was there.
2:43:07And if someone looks it up, he does post that he really was a partner at the bank,
2:43:12whatever, I don't know. So, I always drop the background history in between
2:43:17the mechanisms, to validate how this guy, this regular guy, found out, how it
2:43:22landed in his hands, and how he was smart enough to package it up and deliver it.
2:43:28Then if the guy goes, "Damn, he figured it out because he researched more than I
2:43:31did," well, but he also tested it, validated it, found a strong angle, and
2:43:34he's handing it to me. I can't find it any other way, it has to feel that way
2:43:38too... So it's not that this guy is some awesome genius. What he built is awesome.
2:43:41I mean, what he compiled is awesome, that's what people are buying. But it
2:43:44could've been a different expert.
2:43:47It doesn't really matter that much. Because, man, it could be me selling that
2:43:50product. Sure, I'd be lying a bit if I said I actually did it myself, because I
2:43:53didn't... But the offer would still hold up,
2:43:56because it's adjacent to the guy who's talking.
2:43:59You get it? He just discovered it and packaged it in one place. I could be the
2:44:02guy who did this, and honestly I did do it alongside him, but I'm not the face.
2:44:06Anyway, I didn't have the shop on Shopee. So basically that's how I think about the
2:44:10story. But it shifts a lot depending on how the conversation flows. There's one
2:44:13spot I usually drop it though, when I'm explaining some mechanism or another, I
2:44:17tell a piece of the story.
2:44:18Unless the guy actually tells me a story, the expert tells me a story, and the way
2:44:22he tells it is just naturally magnetic... then we do it differently. Man, I might
2:44:26need to use that story as the centerpiece.
2:44:29Depending on the weight loss niche... Like that one copy... Who was it that
2:44:32wrote that copy where the person talks about... his wife...
2:44:36It was about a doctor who built a product because of his wife... I don't know...
2:44:41I don't know, it's weight loss, whatever it is. And it tells this crazy story,
2:44:44that the wife had cancer, I don't know exactly what the story was. She had a
2:44:48problem, and this guy... because of her, went out looking for the
2:44:51solution, and it's a killer story. But usually, to tell a story that good, I'd
2:44:54have to make it up. And I didn't want to make it up. Yeah.
2:44:57And... unless the guy actually has it, I use it to my advantage, that's what
2:45:00matters. But what he discovered and how he compiled it for me, that's what makes
2:45:04it work. That's what the story needs. Everything else is... just burning
2:45:07time, let's put it that way. Yeah.
2:45:09Hold on, wait a sec, let me cut in on the podcast here. Man, if you could pick
2:45:13anyone in the digital marketing space to sit here on Scaling Secrets and get
2:45:16interviewed by me... who would it be? Who's the person you'd want to have here,
2:45:20opening up the numbers, the strategies, and the behind the scenes of their operation?
2:45:24If you know who that person is... just know we built a form. It's super quick,
2:45:28and it's right there in the description for you to point them out to us. It only
2:45:32takes a minute to fill out. And then, you just drop their name in there, we'll
2:45:36look into them, see how we can make it work, and eventually, if it makes sense,
2:45:40we'll bring that person on the podcast to do the interview and put out that
2:45:44content for you watching at home right now.
2:45:46So, man, if there's someone you think is worth interviewing, go check the
2:45:50description, drop their name in there, it'll help us figure out what kind of
2:45:54content is worth making for you, alright? But anyway, let's get into the podcast.
2:45:59Man... let me ask you about creatives, okay?
2:46:03We've given people out there a bunch of tips on making VSLs... everything from
2:46:07the more complex stuff to the simpler stuff... But...
2:46:13Well, right... and with that, we're able to have... actually... No, we don't
2:46:17just have... we've got a VSL... you've got a VSL that's pulled in 40 million so far.
2:46:22But obviously, that's not the only thing keeping
2:46:25it running, you need a whole structure behind it.
2:46:27Yeah, for sure. And, man, you said you shoot the creatives yourself, that's wild. Doesn't
2:46:32your expert film any of them? You're shooting
2:46:34the creative for the guy's VSL? What do you mean?
2:46:36Man, first off... I still kind of dream of being famous, you know?
2:46:43And like, I want to make money to become the
2:46:45Brazilian Mr. Beast. That's basically it, dude.
2:46:48But I'm the behind the scenes guy. Because I'm not someone who... I
2:46:51didn't inherit anything, nothing like that. So I had to climb my way up mostly
2:46:55through digital. That's what I chose. You want to give money away to people and make videos?
2:46:59No, man... I could be the first...
2:47:02I want to use the money to build really wild stuff. Like, I want a massive studio
2:47:05where I set up a ton of things, and people come in... whatever. Do
2:47:08something with it. I don't really know yet, but I'll figure it out once I get there.
2:47:12But, man... Jokes aside, that side was always there, I always loved... videos and all
2:47:19that. And one day I thought of something with my expert back then... because one
2:47:24of the things that got us scaling early on was creatives, right? We took a mentee
2:47:28from 30 grand a day to 50 with just creatives.
2:47:32Right? Obviously to hit 100, we had to tighten up the VSL a bit more and the
2:47:36upsell too. But the creatives alone nearly doubled things, without touching
2:47:41the cost. So the ROAS followed right along. So...
2:47:45There was a point where I thought like this,
2:47:49What's the real problem in the extra income market, right? Let's start with extra income.
2:47:54There's a big problem with my form, it's that so many people talk about scams. So...
2:48:00I said, "Man, how do I get across that... this isn't a scam?"
2:48:05The only thing I could think of at the time was this. I said, "Man...
2:48:09you don't fall for a scam, you fall for it because someone you trust recommended it."
2:48:15Everyone who fell for it, someone recommended it to them... but usually,
2:48:18when you recommend something to someone, you come across a bit more...
2:48:22More credible... More authority. Like you're recommending something that actually works.
2:48:26I said, "Man, I needed some way to make that happen." Sometimes I felt like my
2:48:29expert was getting tired of filming, and I said, "Man, let's do it differently,
2:48:32let's make something more TikTok-style... we're in the extra income market, we've
2:48:35got to compete with influencers, betting content, gossip channels... we need to be
2:48:39in the format people actually like watching."
2:48:41There'd be days I wasn't feeling that pumped, and
2:48:43I'd say, "You know what? Let's do something...
2:48:45And then we had an idea... I don't quite remember how the idea came together, but
2:48:49he said, "Man, I'll recommend you. I'll make it a UGC."
2:48:52So I'll grab a validated video of yours, one that's already proven, already been
2:48:56running for a while, we had one back then, it was
2:48:58207, if I'm not mistaken... Wasn't it 214, man?
2:49:01200 and... something. What number did Gustavo say?
2:49:04If I'm not mistaken, he said here... he said 241. No... 241 is the...
2:49:10That's the beast. Yeah. But before that one, there was 207. I don't remember
2:49:14that one... That was one of the first ones, it was always solid in the older
2:49:18VSLs... but it was just decent. But once I put it into a reaction format,
2:49:23like... I started saying, "people think that...
2:49:27that everyone's a scammer... So I'm gonna play into that. I'll call my expert a scammer.
2:49:31Except I'll reveal that I thought he was one, and that I found out he wasn't. So I
2:49:35open the video saying, "exposing another internet scammer," or "this guy should
2:49:39get arrested for saying this." I started making up a bunch of negative stuff,
2:49:42because that audience already expects to see it. Or... I was kind of like...
2:49:47The anti-guru guy. I started building that persona, like, sort of an anti-guru
2:49:51for the whole UGC thing. Because I knew it connected hard with people who wanted
2:49:56extra income but were scared of scammers. So if I'm the one exposing a scammer,
2:50:01people stop scrolling to watch me.
2:50:03Man, that creative is what actually got us making real money. Like... I
2:50:07don't remember the exact numbers, something around 50 grand in revenue.
2:50:12And we started saying, "Man, UGC is great." And I went all in on it, because
2:50:16we tested other faces, but mine sold more. That
2:50:19pretty face, huh? Yeah, this pretty face right here.
2:50:23And then, like, putting on a cap, taking it off... doing a ton of stuff. What
2:50:26actually worked, honestly, wasn't even that, it was volume. Because my expert
2:50:30made his own, and I'd grab the validated ones and start cranking out volume too.
2:50:33And man, volume... people will say it's not really an 80/20 thing.
2:50:37But for me it is, man. Because it's only through volume that you actually find
2:50:41what works. And volume gives your traffic manager something to work with.
2:50:45Especially in times when Facebook's unstable,
2:50:47really unstable. Everything's unstable as hell.
2:50:50But how does someone... how does someone actually pump out volume? Because
2:50:55they'll need to write a script, define a format, edit it...
2:50:58Yeah, I'll give you a tip on that... but let me wrap up this point first. So,
2:51:02UGC... actually, I said this in a post on my Instagram, UGC is the best format in
2:51:052026 for making money. That's because... I can't
2:51:08quite explain if it holds for every niche, but
2:51:11you can play someone else's game, and have, like... sometimes other people are
2:51:15more magnetic than the expert himself in that split second the hook needs to grab attention.
2:51:20And then you build everything around a creative that's got at least some minimal
2:51:24proof, and after that the creative just starts running on its own. So I only
2:51:28handle the hook, and let it carry itself. And that 241 one is Marçal's. Because the
2:51:32day he went on Canal Foco and said Shopee was the
2:51:34best way to make money, I filmed it that same day.
2:51:37I said, "Look what Marçal said about making money, this is insane." Then I cut
2:51:40to the clip of him saying it. And right after he mentions Shopee, my expert comes
2:51:43in saying, "I know a guy who teaches exactly what he's talking about. Check
2:51:46out his video." Then I run the 207 one, the old one.
2:51:49That's when it started performing. And, man... like, seriously... that thing hit
2:51:53100 grand... just off the creative alone. Whoa.
2:51:56Like, sure, there was a decent VSL behind it that already worked, right? The old
2:52:01one. But like I said, there are four metrics for me that move the needle on
2:52:05someone's funnel, CPC, play rate, VSL conversion, and average ticket.
2:52:11And there's two of them, man, that you can actually move... there's some
2:52:15complexity to it, but, it changes the...
2:52:18result a lot, just by tweaking them a little. That'd be the CPC and the VSL conversion.
2:52:24But which one's easier? Boosting the VSL conversion, or raising the CTR and
2:52:27lowering the CPC? I believe it's easier to raise the CTR and lower the CPC. And
2:52:31that's exactly what we did with that mentee, went from 30 to 50.
2:52:35His CTR was really low, we bumped it up by 0.5, and he started getting way more
2:52:39people into the VSL. Everything else stayed the same, same conversion. But
2:52:43paying the same price, the CPC dropped, ROAS went up, and he ended up scaling
2:52:47even bigger. So... what made that creative different? It was printing hard.
2:52:51It was pushing tons of people into the VSL.
2:52:53A CTR of 4.5, or 5%, at scale is a huge deal. Scale like... 50 grand a day...
2:52:58that's already a pretty solid scale.
2:53:00I said, "Man, alright." But we couldn't just stay stuck on that, that's why we
2:53:03went for the VSL too, to boost it, because then it'd be the master combo,
2:53:06and that's exactly what we got. We were on a run of really solid creatives,
2:53:10because we never had just one... like, this one was really strong, but
2:53:13there were several strong ones.
2:53:15This one alone pulled in who knows how many millions. Across different formats.
2:53:18Because I kept doing it in different ways.
2:53:20And, going back to your question about high volume, here's what we did:
2:53:24Man, we basically said, "We're willing to put in the work. So what are we gonna do?
2:53:28Every Tuesday we're gonna film creatives, me and my expert. So I step away from my
2:53:32regular role and go film with him, both together and me filming solo too."
2:53:36Because I started showing up a lot. And there's a ton of creatives where it's
2:53:39just me, solo. So I'll go like, "a way to make money online," and point to the
2:53:42Singapore system. Which is the coolest one, the one I've seen actually working
2:53:45and all that. My expert doesn't even show up in some of them. And there are some
2:53:48where I film with him, or react to him, and he wraps it up with the CTA.
2:53:51But how do we actually pump out that much
2:53:53volume, right? We've got a few validated copies.
2:53:56It's not written copy. We don't have anything written
2:53:58down. We just have what we want to get across.
2:54:00What do you mean? For example, I want to get across
2:54:02that there's a way to make 300 reais a day in
2:54:04some unconventional way with a platform that just landed in Brazil.
2:54:07He and I sit down together and think, "We need to get this idea across. So say it
2:54:10your way, just in this format."
2:54:12So it's really a game about formats. There's one format we scaled up a lot
2:54:15too, using it on TV with slides. We built out the slides. And then I go around
2:54:19coming up with headlines for it.
2:54:21So, like... "new side income Rivotril, make money
2:54:24and sleep." I started playing around with that.
2:54:27"New side income that just dropped... new system
2:54:30from Singapore to make 300 reais a day..."
2:54:32And then on the next slide it'd be like, "even if you've got a regular job... even
2:54:36if you're older..." a bunch of objections. "And here's how it works..."
2:54:40And then I'd always steer it toward showing a little demo of the AI.
2:54:44Man, you pick the product right here, you pick how much you want to make, because
2:54:47the system's got all these functions built in. It'll print this one out, this
2:54:50product, and your shop starts selling in a way.
2:54:52And I learned that... I say, "I learned it when I saw a video of this
2:54:56guy, and I think the video's still up, I'll leave it here... I'll leave it on
2:54:59the next page, just click 'learn more' to get access to this system..."
2:55:03Then the person goes and clicks. So, that's how I used to run that format on
2:55:06TV. But I noticed there's a format on the computer
2:55:09that also worked really well. So what do we do?
2:55:11There's an 80/20 to the filming. Every Tuesday we film. 80% of the shoot... 80%
2:55:16of the time, meaning, 80% of the videos. So say, if we're doing a hundred today,
2:55:20that's 80. If it's 50, then 40...
2:55:23We're going to make... the same validated creative... in different ways. So say it
2:55:27was shot on that TV? Then I'll switch TVs. I'll go somewhere else, with a
2:55:31different TV, a different size TV... but with the same slide sequence, leaning
2:55:35toward saying the same lines. Because... we don't repeat the exact same
2:55:39copy. I know the sequence, and I say it a different way.
2:55:43But the format stays the same. So I go to a different TV... go somewhere else and
2:55:46so on. If it's a different format, like the reaction one, then I'll shoot with a
2:55:49cap on, then without it, shoot with a split screen... But how do
2:55:52you think people can even get that in the first place? I mean, the
2:55:55validated copies. Is there some kind of model you use to kickstart the
2:56:00validated copies? Not kickstart, right, but to create copies that could
2:56:04eventually get validated in the first place? Because, no doubt about
2:56:08it... like, if I've got a copy that works, Then
2:56:11let's replicate it. Right, you replicate it. Right.
2:56:13No doubt. But... what if, say, the person doesn't have any,
2:56:17like it was for you at some point, when you didn't have any of those validated copies yet.
2:56:22How do we find those first copies to validate? How do you do that?
2:56:26Man, I always look at a ton of organic content. I think that's something a lot
2:56:30of people will say, organic content is king in a lot of ways, because it grabs
2:56:34attention. But I always have to work the VSL mechanisms into the creative somehow.
2:56:39So I sell the idea that the person's going to make 300 reais with the least
2:56:42effort possible. No work, just click and it happens. And I give a demo. In our
2:56:45case, since there's a system, I bring every single creative to a demo.
2:56:49"Look how it works..." because I'm selling the system right there. So how do
2:56:52I build it? It's a hook, like it's regular content.
2:56:55Except it's a hook with the promise usually being, "I'm gonna teach you how
2:56:58to make 300 reais a day."
2:56:59Except there's a whole vibe to it in TikTok style and format... so there's a
2:57:03whole funny side to it... that's just our thing.
2:57:06So it's not very serious in our case. But for the investment guy, who's the one we
2:57:10help in the mentorship, his has to be more serious. But it always starts with a
2:57:14promise. The promise of the final payoff.
2:57:17"I found a way to do this..." always in that reveal kind of tone.
2:57:20And I always like to say one thing. Which would be "even if."
2:57:23I know it's kind of annoying to keep repeating "even if you..." but it works.
2:57:26I go into the promise, the "even if..."
2:57:29And I go on to say something like, "you're gonna click and it'll happen.
2:57:32Even if you're older and all that... you just need to know how to read and write.
2:57:35I'll show you hands on... I'll show you right now. To do that, you're gonna go
2:57:38into this place, and so on..."
2:57:39So I sort of reveal a bit of the mechanism. So I build a hook with the
2:57:42promise. Then I move into the "even if" part, with the objections. Even if he's
2:57:46got the objections... and usually after that I explain the mechanism.
2:57:50"You're not there right now because of this, and there's a way out, which is
2:57:53because of..." then I explain the mechanism. So if it's for someone who
2:57:55already sells, it'd be like, "if I were selling on Shopee, there's a code you're
2:57:58not using that you should be, and that code got me making more..." then I
2:58:01usually drop in some proof, like, "this got me there."
2:58:04And then I'll show you that in detail on the next lesson... not lesson... on the
2:58:07next page. Because I usually don't sell a lesson in the CTA. There are some that do
2:58:11have a lesson in the CTA, but I'm not into it. My expert likes it, so we mix it
2:58:14up... but I'm not really into it,
2:58:16So basically there's no exact order. It's kind of like its own piece of content.
2:58:19Because we've also tested content where I don't talk about the promise that much, I
2:58:23go straight into the content itself. Like, "ways to make money online."
2:58:27Like a ranking, for example... there's no promise of making a set amount of money.
2:58:30It's just ways to do it. And in first place on the ranking I put the Singapore
2:58:34system. Which is the best one... but I always say that...
2:58:36I say all the rest is bad, either because it's illegal, like... I go down the road
2:58:40of, man, this isn't morally right, or because it's too much work. Because I
2:58:43sell the whole time on the idea that the guy won't have to work. And there's only
2:58:47one way to have zero work and huge results, and that's first place, the
2:58:50Singapore system. Which my expert made a whole lesson to show.
2:58:54So... there's no exact rule... but usually it comes down to content, and
2:58:58format is king in that sense. We grab a bunch of formats. 80% of the time we
2:59:03replicate one format. But on Tuesdays, we use 20% of the day to test new formats.
2:59:08So when we follow that, it's about 10 to 20 new formats, on average.
2:59:11And where do you find those new formats?
2:59:13TikTok and Reels. Just researching and seeing what's getting engagement.
2:59:17Right. And the day before, me and my expert spend a good while sending stuff
2:59:20back and forth to each other. We've got a folder on Google Drive just for our
2:59:24inspiration. So the job is basically watching Reels all day. That's a good job, man.
2:59:27Right. When I go to the bathroom I start watching a bunch of Reels... now I've got
2:59:30an excuse to take my time. "Guys, I can't help right now." "But you're on Reels..."
2:59:33"No, I'm working." And that goes for creatives
2:59:36too. And obviously, just like a lot of people copy
2:59:38us on creatives... and that's fine. Actually, for mentees, we send them the
2:59:41exact validated creatives. They just copy them and they work. That's the interesting part.
2:59:46We've got a bunch validated across different cycles. Every two or three
2:59:49month cycle, we pick out the best ones. And in our mentorship, we actually don't...
2:59:53like, you get access to everything I've made. "Oh, but I'll just copy your
2:59:56offer..." I'll make another one.
2:59:58A better one, or whatever... you just don't have an edge in the operation.
3:00:02And we... we validate it because we spend a ton of money, and they copy it.
3:00:05Interesting. It's pretty bold, right? Like, "I'll just make another offer, so
3:00:08go ahead and copy mine." Yeah, because once you
3:00:10understand the fundamentals, it might take more work to
3:00:12always build something better than your previous best. But, man, there's an ad
3:00:16library, and everyone knows our offer's validated somehow. Someone's gonna copy
3:00:20it. So, what's the real difference?
3:00:22And, I think Gustavo talked a lot about this on that other podcast, the real
3:00:25profit comes from the post-sale. Are you gonna have 12 people to handle support?
3:00:29Are you gonna spend on developers to build the AI? Are you gonna have all of that?
3:00:33If you don't have that, you can't compete, because we're able to pay more.
3:00:36That's... what I believe is the real competitive edge, man. Having the
3:00:41back-end. Yeah. It's the only way to... You never lose to the guy who copies you.
3:00:44Right. It's really the only way you actually protect
3:00:47yourself, you know? Exactly. And man, at the end of the day...
3:00:50Since it's not really about the expert, and it's only about the narrative, like
3:00:53we were saying earlier... man, I could put myself in there doing it and it'd
3:00:57still work. It's extremely copyable. I get that now. I used to criticize people
3:01:00saying, "man, that's not possible... you can't just tell me what you're selling."
3:01:04Nowadays I get it, because if you take someone's narrative and just replicate it
3:01:07with someone good at speaking to do the VSL, you're gonna sell.
3:01:10Except today we're not scared of that at all, because we built something on the
3:01:13post-sale side. Something really solid, with a physical office and everything to
3:01:17handle that project demand.
3:01:19Supporting our students and so on. So we're a lot less worried about that.
3:01:22And man, it's really wild... the creative we send out, people repeat the exact same
3:01:26thing in other niches and it works. That's why
3:01:28copy really is relevant, and it always will be.
3:01:31Except there are some creatives that...
3:01:33like... just like there's an expert who carries things just by being "that guy,"
3:01:35there are some formats that carry themselves on
3:01:37their own if you're the first one to do them.
3:01:39It could be a ranking style copy... like,
3:01:42"ranking of the best ways for you to go viral."
3:01:44So the first format is the word combination, for example. It's gonna
3:01:47work, you don't even need it, it'll work, just by naming the others. And here's a
3:01:50detail, mechanizing the problem is really the art of understanding your competitors
3:01:54too. What was sold to this guy so you can use it to your advantage, and so people
3:01:57realize there's naturally a way out, and that way is you, since you're bashing
3:02:00everything else. It's the art of trashing the other options. So when someone uses
3:02:04the ranking, they name everything that's out there being sold.
3:02:06So, like... format in fifth place... sixth place... because some people sell
3:02:09the format itself. And, like... other things that go viral... and you just keep
3:02:13stacking them up. And what's number one? Combination. It's a brand new name. And
3:02:16that's where I reveal the combination, for example.
3:02:19Anyway, so the guy didn't need to be a copy expert, he just had to
3:02:23replicate the format using his own logic, right?
3:02:27So for people just starting out who struggle with copy, the format matters
3:02:31most. A launch guy usually has a good sense of content, so he does it well. But
3:02:35the format is king, man. And when lots of people
3:02:38copy us, it's actually tough, because we become the
3:02:42reference and I have to find a new one. So, man, I go to organic.
3:02:46Someone's always gonna hit on an organic winner, and whoever grabs it first wins.
3:02:50And man, it's fine, we copy other people's formats, right?
3:02:54But that's the logic behind creatives in general. Still, nothing beats UGC.
3:02:58With UGC, man... it's like, we had one of our mentees get his whole team to do it.
3:03:02One guy, out of five... there was one guy, and everything with him just works.
3:03:08They totally screwed him, right? Now one of his jobs is recording. And man, I
3:03:12don't know how long it'll keep working... anyway. But today, take a
3:03:16validated one, do a UGC... Several, right, because one person alone might not
3:03:20work. But grab like five people from the team and do it. The result is brutal. Go for it.
3:03:26Have you ever tested... So, like... Have you ever tested this UGC with AI? Because, I think
3:03:31one thing that... Man, we've got the editors
3:03:34working on that for us. Right now they're actually
3:03:37hunting for good AI tools so we can run that test. Because, like, we could hire
3:03:41people. I actually wanna do that so I can have... There
3:03:44are tools for that, man. Yeah, seems like there are
3:03:47tools, right? You can do some cool stuff. Yeah, man.
3:03:49The AI generates... some random avatar, and then he's
3:03:52talking... Doing the React. Doing a React or anything else you want.
3:03:56I wanna test it. But doing it this way, because I know it's validated. Later I
3:03:59can even test other validated formats. But this UGC one, man...
3:04:03If you say "exposing the scammer," then talk about this person and that topic,
3:04:07which is the promise, and then say you thought he was one but he actually wasn't
3:04:11a scammer, it works. And then, the person’s video
3:04:13takes over the screen, it keeps playing, and they
3:04:15deliver the CTA. Or else, "this person should
3:04:18be in jail for saying this so openly about going
3:04:21viral... or about making money on the internet," or, whatever... Man...
3:04:25It's a trick, a little "hack"... Doesn't mean it'll work every time... But, man...
3:04:29if this person is watching this podcast in 2026, in August or September, right,
3:04:33which would be now... Then this tends to work.
3:04:36Uh-huh... And man, how many creatives do you test... per week, per
3:04:41month? What's that volume you're talking about?
3:04:44We say 50 to 100, but we don't hit 100 every time.
3:04:47But 50, we definitely do. Per week? Every Tuesday.
3:04:50And Gustavo uploads most of them, and I don't know
3:04:53exactly, but at least half. Like, we record on Tuesday, and by Wednesday it's
3:04:57all edited. By Wednesday midnight. That way on Thursday he can already be testing. Oh yeah?
3:05:02Keep in mind, always set aside a budget for testing. Wow. And it's always that.
3:05:06The editing pace is pretty fast, right?
3:05:09Yeah, we have a few editors who work specifically on that. And we’re also,
3:05:12Man, we’re very TikTok-ified. So these videos don’t have a lot of fluff.
3:05:15It’s just a reaction... it’s ridiculous.
3:05:17Do you have TikTok? When we were doing 100k a day, my expert and I edited every
3:05:21day. Wow. But we recorded more because it was Tuesday. We recorded every day. And by
3:05:26evening, like 6 PM, we'd wrap up recording, open CapCut, and both of us
3:05:29edited. Because at the start of the project it was me, Gustavo and the expert
3:05:32doing everything. There was support too. But everything else, we
3:05:36hadn't delegated yet. Then we figured it out and started hiring the crew.
3:05:39Man... So, nowadays, I can say with confidence that you have TikTok.
3:05:45Do I understand TikTok? That you have one. You've
3:05:48got a profile you use to spy on everything, right?
3:05:50No, man, I just go on the main feed. Oh, okay... Like... my profile. I've got a
3:05:54random TikTok account. You've got an account there. Yeah. It's my
3:05:57old account, but I don't post anything, I just watch. For sure. And my expert too.
3:06:01I get it. Man, I don’t... Can you believe I don’t have TikTok? No, that’s a
3:06:04lie... I actually have a TikTok account. I only
3:06:06started using it again because of this. Oh yeah?
3:06:08Yeah. It'd been... I don't know, a few years. I didn't even remember the
3:06:11password... Had to reset it and all. Because I said, "Man, I gotta look." But
3:06:14it's funny, 'cause I don't really consume it either.
3:06:16Yeah, TikTok is crazy, man. Crazy. Instagram is enough for me.
3:06:20I really wanna advertise on TikTok, but we haven't figured out how to run ads yet.
3:06:24Man, there's a roundtable podcast. About TikTok, here at VTurb.
3:06:30Oh yeah? That's the one that'll show up on your screen, guys.
3:06:34I was looking at the screen to see if it'd show up. Yeah, it's not gonna show up...
3:06:38It'll show up somewhere, okay? The thumbnail.
3:06:41And... Man, so you... So you give your validated
3:06:46creatives to your mentees? Yes. They work for...
3:06:51For lots of different niches? It works. Yes. That same creative... the react one?
3:06:56Man, using the same phrases. I say, "Repeat it." It's no problem, man. Just
3:07:00repeat it. I'll find other ones later. Screw it, man...
3:07:03Anyone in the mentorship gets everything. It's a promise, I don't want you renewing
3:07:07anymore... So I'll give you everything until it's time for you to leave,
3:07:10obviously. And people start getting results, and they naturally start heading
3:07:13down the path... toward going solo, let's say.
3:07:16And man... Like... These days, a lot of things are replicable. A lot.
3:07:21And when you say that... Because it's easy to record, you know?
3:07:23Got it. And when you say you get creative volume by making variations...
3:07:29From what I understood, you don't... you don't vary the format. You
3:07:33make variations that... Within the format. Within the format.
3:07:36So, if it's a UGC format, for example... It's like... Now
3:07:39my TV is like this... then a big TV, then a small one... Just changing
3:07:42clothes isn't enough, right? Like, these aren't minor changes.
3:07:45Man, I... I've done one in a helmet. And it
3:07:48worked. Is it dumb? Yeah, but I did it in a helmet.
3:07:51A react in a helmet. I'd flip up the visor and start saying, "These
3:07:54scammers..." We're pretty crazy over there too, that's why we... we like
3:07:58volume. But then, for example... Changing the TV is relevant. The location: if I
3:08:03shoot at my expert's house or at the office, that's relevant. But the copy and
3:08:07the format are the same. And the TV playing and everything. Nice. Got it, man.
3:08:13Alright, that's really good, man. So, at first glance, your flagship really is UGC.
3:08:18Today it's UGC. It tends to work for any and every
3:08:21niche. And proof of that is, man, you've got a
3:08:24bunch of mentees, from all kinds of niches...
3:08:26Yes. So, since they're adapting the extra income ads to their own niches... Even
3:08:32using the same phrases, the same format... We can conclude it's
3:08:36something that works for any and every niche, right? I believe so. Right. Cool.
3:08:41We've never had an objection to that. Obviously, the ideal is for you to use,
3:08:45Like, there's another type of react too. There's this one, where you use a
3:08:48validated creative in the background. But there's another, which is what we did
3:08:52with Marçal. Someone validating something, same story as the front-end
3:08:54VSL. Because, you remember I nailed the creative before I made the VSL.
3:08:57So... Why is the Marçal one so insane? Because he's validating something
3:09:01really strong. The guy lands on my VSL already sold on the Shopee idea.
3:09:04That's why I put it inside the new VSL at the time, right, when we actually
3:09:08created the Singapore system.
3:09:09So I always tell experts to get influential people too, but when I did it
3:09:13with Eliana it didn't work. Crazy, right? Eliana is famous, but she's not
3:09:17influential enough to make the guy take action. Marçal, on the other hand,
3:09:21could do that. That's why I understood it worked with him. So I tell the mentees, right?
3:09:26Try finding someone who'll say, for example, that content is flopping because
3:09:30of this. I'll grab the Instagram CEO saying: "Man, the Instagram CEO revealed
3:09:34how to go viral." Then he says it's about the algorithm. And I figured out how to
3:09:38unlock the algorithm based on what he said. So you use outside people, outside validation
3:09:44to do a react too. It can be with UGC or with the expert himself saying, "Hey,
3:09:47look what this guy"... Then the expert does the CTA. Or I do it myself.
3:09:50Something like, "By the way, I know a guy who teaches exactly what he's talking
3:09:53about..." Then either the expert's video comes in or you do the CTA right there,
3:09:57with the "learn more" and the person clicks. Cool. Cool, man, really good.
3:10:01That's 100% accurate. I'll say 99, because nothing is 100%. Yeah, right? 100% is tricky.
3:10:07Let me switch topics real quick, okay? To upsell.
3:10:11Awesome, sounds good. I saw on your Instagram...
3:10:15Where you talked about a certain type of upsell.
3:10:19That you said... Well, in my head it's written "guarantor." But that's not it,
3:10:22right? "Guarantor." Guarantor, right? So what did I say before? You said... "Prospector."
3:10:28Yeah. I don’t even know what that means. I’ve got this whole prospecting thing
3:10:31stuck in my head. And I don’t even prospect for anything.
3:10:34Only goals in FIFA, man. That’s where I
3:10:37prospect. It could be hidden. Hyperfocus on FIFA.
3:10:40I wanna crush Caio again, you know? Whoa... Hold on... Geez.
3:10:43I just wanna beat him fair and square. I wanna beat Caio fair and square. Is
3:10:48that cool, Caio? You down, man? Wait, didn’t I win fair and square?
3:10:53But I won fair and square, didn’t I? These guys are
3:10:55arguing over who won, or who actually won... Oh my God...
3:10:58He plays well... These guys never get out of fifth grade... Look, put
3:11:01the new result on screen, okay? João and Caio, version two. Because
3:11:04version one, I already won. Put version two up. Okay... Talking about upsell now, okay?
3:11:09The upsell... So... I think it's something...
3:11:13Well, I don't just think. It really is extremely
3:11:16important, for us to increase the average ticket. And to have
3:11:21margin. So we have favorable math in the funnel so we can spend on traffic
3:11:26Yes. And consequently scale the offer more. Perfect. I think it's really bizarre,
3:11:31because... There are people who, man, in 2026...
3:11:34People... still don't use an upsell. Bizarrely.
3:11:37I'll tell you some funny stories about that. Tell me, man.
3:11:41the launch market, which is migrating to DR with an audience...
3:11:45a lot of people are creating front-only offers, right, because it's a process
3:11:49where, man, the person is putting out a brand new first product, and sometimes
3:11:52won't create both. And they're getting lots of results without the upsell. Why?
3:11:56They're still riding a little of the pent-up demand from their own profile.
3:12:00Even using Advantage in traffic, you still reach the people from the profile.
3:12:04So a lot of people who are starting out, experts with bigger audiences, are
3:12:07starting to profit straight off the front. That's the case for a lot of people.
3:12:11But we know that this window has a limit.
3:12:14If this person doesn't start playing the game of having support on the average
3:12:18ticket, he can't get the CPA he needs to profit.
3:12:22For example, our CPA... I mean, our product is 297. And our CPA... Gustavo
3:12:26can confirm better... it's 260 or 250, I don't know... Very close to the front.
3:12:31But we have a really high average ticket compared
3:12:34to others. And that's where the profit comes from.
3:12:37But there's one thing... When we started building, we also always put
3:12:40ourselves in the position of always being wrong. Because I was also the launch guy
3:12:44who was getting things wrong like crazy...
3:12:47And we never knew how to do an upsell. And then we found some important points,
3:12:51and everybody is gonna need an upsell. Because even if you make money
3:12:55on the front, you could be making way more money with the upsell. Way more.
3:12:59And when things start declining, because that's normal with just the front... You
3:13:03won't drop as much. Because you'll have an upsell that sustains you. It'll even
3:13:08bring you scale. And we... our upsell today converts at 20 to 30%. An average of 25.
3:13:12Hold on, man. Lemme ask about that, okay? I'll get back to the upsell in a sec.
3:13:16Okay, how the upsell works... Man, when someone
3:13:19tells me, "Oh, the upsell, it converts at 20 to 30%"
3:13:24Or more, okay? That story... It's an incomplete story...
3:13:29Because, man... conversion is just one variable of the upsell, you know.
3:13:34Yes. What's better? An upsell that converts at 1%
3:13:37or an upsell with 100% conversion? Depends, man.
3:13:40If my upsell has a 100% conversion rate and the upsell is one dollar... After 100
3:13:44sales, I’ll have 100 dollars, you know what I mean? And if it’s a million...
3:13:49At a 1% conversion rate... after 100 sales, I’ll make one sale worth a million
3:13:52dollars, and I’ll have a million dollars.
3:13:55So we've got the average ticket variable too. Man... given that this
3:13:58thing I just said, that average ticket matters too. Why do you think everybody
3:14:02says, "Oh, the upsell converts at this much, converts at that"? Do you think
3:14:05people weren't aware of this, or is it kinda
3:14:07just the market standard? Man, because I think...
3:14:10This happened because... these rules just showed up. Because it had to be X. Same
3:14:15thing with VSL length, pitch retention... And lead. Yeah.
3:14:21Well, the copy crowd, I've seen so many ads where the guy goes, "Look how we
3:14:24do retention." I said, "Bro, what's your conversion? Screw the rest."
3:14:28So people started clinging to numbers to justify something because of the numbers,
3:14:32like it has to be, like, Y and Z...
3:14:35That's why I use them. Because I also found out that throwing out a rule is
3:14:37part of it. Because if I don't tell the guy what percentage he needs to hit...
3:14:40the mentee, for example, he doesn't know how to measure, because he hasn't
3:14:43understood yet that it makes a difference.
3:14:45And it's a way for you to explain to them how a funnel works.
3:14:48Exactly. And... I tell them how we scaled, and it's a number that
3:14:51coincidentally is what other mentees scale with, but the prices are also
3:14:55similar. We sell at 297 on the front. So if a guy turns to me and says, "I have a
3:14:594% conversion on the VSL," I ask, "How much does your product cost?" He goes, "189..."
3:15:03One, eight and... I said, "Oh, I see. Your conversion
3:15:06is nice, but I sell at 297..." So 4.5% or 5
3:15:10is a different ballgame... It's another thing, different math. He has
3:15:12to understand. His has to be higher, because it's cheaper. Naturally
3:15:15it's higher, but that doesn't mean it'll make you
3:15:18more money, because maybe you sell less upsell.
3:15:20So we know that getting somewhere between 20 and 30% is what helped us
3:15:24scale to 200, 300 thousand reais a day. And we see other people who follow that
3:15:28same approach, trying to get to 20%, and it helps a lot... So, trying to get to
3:15:3320% is kind of the benchmark. But with a $297 offer and... a $597 upsell, for example.
3:15:38And obviously, if the guy has a thousand reais ticket right off the bat and gets
3:15:4210%, sometimes he makes a much higher average ticket,
3:15:45than a guy selling a 597 upsell at 20%. Or something like that... I'm talking
3:15:50random numbers. The structure that you... that you have and implement for your mentees, is
3:15:56the front at 297, Right. And the upsell at 597...
3:15:59Right, exactly. And then the downsells come after too.
3:16:03But... Mostly that's what we try to do. And then we adapt the guy's flow based on
3:16:06the prices. Because there's market competition.
3:16:08Other people might sell for this and that. And we keep refining and
3:16:11adapting. Because this guy needs to have an average ticket of X, based on the
3:16:14numbers he already has in traffic. When the guy already has a VSL project, we
3:16:17analyze CPC, play rate, VSL conversion, and average ticket.
3:16:20And sometimes we think, man, everything's fine... The average ticket is really
3:16:24trash. We'll focus everything on the upsell, in the mentorship. At the start,
3:16:27let's say. We need to improve your upsell... Because by improving now, you
3:16:30already earn back the mentorship money right now.
3:16:32It's a metric that... you're missing that to give you margin.
3:16:35But... There's also this thing... Sometimes, to change the upsell
3:16:38conversion, we have to change the front's price.
3:16:41Because I don't know if with a 197 front, I can sell an upsell that steep at 597.
3:16:47Maybe the drop is because the guy pays too little for one thing and too much for
3:16:50the next, so we have to find the middle ground, and there's no rule. Yes.
3:16:53And also... calculate the performance of the whole funnel. And of
3:16:56course, the front ticket has to give you more card sales than Pix.
3:16:59Period. So the guy gets to the one click buy on the upsell. There's more chance
3:17:02people will just click and buy.
3:17:04We work with a 70 to 30 split. And obviously with a cheaper ticket I get
3:17:08more Pix. What do you mean, 70 to 30? Card versus Pix. Oh yeah? That's the ideal.
3:17:14Way more people will arrive with a card to just click and buy.
3:17:18At that 297 ticket, that's the ideal? Yeah, for us that's what happens. Interesting.
3:17:23When people set it at 197, it's kinda 50/50, or 60/40, which isn't ideal. There
3:17:27are lots of people you lose with Pix. Pix killed the upsell, huh. Yes.
3:17:31It's complicated. The low ticket folks... they get a lot of Pix, since those are
3:17:34really cheap products. That's why they use order bumps to raise the average ticket.
3:17:38Yes. Because he needs it right then, before the guy pays. It's the chance he has to
3:17:41raise the average ticket. We don't use order bumps, I'm not gonna lay down a rule that...
3:17:45Well, I'm gonna lay down a little rule, because everyone we took it off of got a
3:17:49better checkout conversion, right? I have a theory that... Of course,
3:17:51man. You take out the order bump, and it's one less step for the guy.
3:17:54Of course the conversion's gonna be... And that's
3:17:56why this is a daily mess that... Anyway, we don't use
3:17:58it. Yeah, of course. And... In our cases, when we
3:18:01took it off, we also increased the upsell. Anyway...
3:18:03It was worth it, we tested it. We've tested a lot of stuff. We're skin in the
3:18:07game, man. We were forged in iron, right? We didn't have experts to carry
3:18:10us. It was all testing things. Forged in iron.
3:18:13Forged in iron. That sounded wrong... But we just hit, like, a lot of rough roads
3:18:17along the way, so we had to get good at premises and fundamentals, anyway. And we
3:18:21tested everything. With order bumps... With one, two, three, 100...
3:18:24And 100 was better for a higher average ticket.
3:18:28But man... Have you ever tested that upsell, like, I dunno...
3:18:33You're at practically 600 reais, right? 597. Right. Have you tried
3:18:37putting, I dunno, 800, a thousand on that upsell? Didn't work. Yeah?
3:18:41No. And we have upsell two, right? Because it's usually
3:18:44easier to raise the upsell price than to make it convert more.
3:18:47Yes, exactly. And it makes sense, and everything has to be tested in some way.
3:18:51But, man, we're finding ways in the mentorship, for example... And it's
3:18:55working... Because what I'm betting heavily on is the upsell narrative. It's
3:18:59working a lot. So, we take people who... Who had
3:19:046%, now going to 15. Changing the upsell VSL.
3:19:08And I still adapt the VSL that's already there. Ideally we'd change the front VSL
3:19:12to be more connected. I take the guy's front and say, "Not touching it now, I
3:19:15won't mess with this VSL's conversion."
3:19:17I'm just gonna understand how it works so I can improve the product that's there in
3:19:21the offer, right, that's there in the upsell. And that's it, it makes it
3:19:24happen. Then I say, "Bro, I raised one to 15... Let's make a VSL just to test,
3:19:27because maybe it goes up to 20." I connect it
3:19:30better, I have more... I can help you, work with this
3:19:32information better so it makes more sense... So... Yes, it can happen
3:19:37that you need to raise the price and improve. But, I... Man... We're finding
3:19:41a lot of solutions by improving the upsell VSL
3:19:43itself. The guy's numbers are already going up.
3:19:46So it's usually going well. Why? Going back to
3:19:48your question... We understood what an upsell is...
3:19:51But to understand what it is, you have to understand what it isn't. It's what I say
3:19:54a lot on my Instagram, on Classes and Courses. I always try to show that... On Classes and Courses?
3:19:58What's that? It's a format I have on Instagram that's working, and people like it.
3:20:02It's called Classes and Courses. With Tafuri. About a topic that's always
3:20:06been sold digitally, and I'm trying to deconstruct it to make it more...
3:20:11More didactic... So it's a different way of thinking.
3:20:14And then I say: most things, I try to start with an analogy of what it isn't first.
3:20:18What isn't an upsell, right? The upsell isn't...
3:20:21The upsell isn't the next step. Because...
3:20:23It's very normal to think it is. Like, it's really common to see a weight loss
3:20:27product, where the person sells weight loss and in the upsell sells "how to get
3:20:30rid of stretch marks."
3:20:31But stretch marks might be a result of someone who lost weight... So it doesn't
3:20:35make much sense as an upsell. This person hasn't had that problem yet to
3:20:39want that solution now. It could be a product down the road for this guy. Then, fine.
3:20:43Which is also an upsell, right? But at first, we came to the conclusion
3:20:47that it can’t be... It can’t be the next step at this point. It’s not
3:20:51the next level. So it’s not another achievement.
3:20:54The whole ecosystem we build for experts... at the center, there's the front's core promise.
3:21:00Everything that comes after is to make sure the front gets executed. Or that
3:21:04this result arrives faster... or with a bigger result.
3:21:07So if my core promise to the guy is to make 6,000 reais in 30 days with my
3:21:12system... Then in my upsell I need to deliver something that lets him make more
3:21:17than 6,000 reais in 30 days... Or 6,000 faster. In two days, or 10, whatever...
3:21:23And the way we find to do that is... I really like a format that
3:21:27delivers some... some pillar of the front product, that we usually say,
3:21:31already built out for this guy.
3:21:33Here's our case: he has to have the products I mentioned to him. Our supplier
3:21:37has five thousand. The guy's like, wow, I'll have tons. But we know which ones
3:21:41sell the most out of those five thousand. So I build him a store with the most
3:21:45validated ones, a piece of the machine that makes
3:21:48sense. Oh, so for those 597, you build the store?
3:21:50I build it for him. At first it was a mess, because we did it by hand and
3:21:55couldn't scale. I hired a dev, and now we're always updating the best-selling
3:22:00products. We also have a cheat sheet of the top sellers, and we rotate them among
3:22:05the ten guys, so nobody has the same products and ends up competing. So it's
3:22:09always curated, it's a wild thing.
3:22:12It's a killer deliverable. The guy tends to get different things to get different
3:22:17results. So we put it on AI, and we could scale. That means I can make an
3:22:21aggressive promise, because I deliver it without depending on human execution. But
3:22:26why? What's the line? I have to guarantee it, so I need a guarantor.
3:22:30What can I do for this guy, something I deliver, that I already mentioned to him
3:22:34on the front end, one of the pillars, in a way that guarantees he'll execute? It's
3:22:38not guaranteeing that this is what's gonna happen.
3:22:42It's guaranteeing he'll be able to execute.
3:22:44So on my profile, I joke:
3:22:47When you sell the front, you're saying he's stuck in several "lines" in life.
3:22:51When you sell him the front, you're showing the "better line," the best one
3:22:55to reach that goal. The upsell lets you cut the line.
3:22:59You'll get there. Your upsell can never discredit your front.
3:23:03It's not a tie-in sale. Does that mean my upsell doesn't work? It'll work.
3:23:07It'll work, same result, but you wanna cut the line.
3:23:10There’s a method that I only reveal in this video, for the people who received
3:23:13it and have access to what I’m about to show you.
3:23:15It's fine if you don't want it. I promised you,
3:23:18it'll happen. But there's a way to cut the line.
3:23:21So that's what we do, we're a results guarantor. In the sense of: man, how do I
3:23:26speed this up, in a way where the execution isn't...
3:23:29disproportionate. They also don't have to execute much more to do it. We usually
3:23:34deliver something ready-made. Nice, man. The tip I always give is...
3:23:39I have a course on this, the "Upsell Secrets."
3:23:42Nice. It's on the screen now, folks, in the VTurb
3:23:46Academy. It's available, so go check it out.
3:23:50But, man... So, I always recommend the person to do...
3:23:55an upsell that delivers faster results. That would be thing number one.
3:24:01And second is the "done for you" upsell.
3:24:03So you do the work they'd have to do. You go and execute it for them. Yep, exactly. So...
3:24:11I assume, I dunno if it's true, man, you tell me. I assume that... Since the upsell is a...
3:24:19A sales message that... even though it's extremely
3:24:24important, it's kind of hidden in the funnel.
3:24:28and because of that, I think we won't get much creativity...
3:24:32Like, we won't have a wild upsell lead saying:
3:24:35"Oh, because the six by one schedule, blah blah."
3:24:38I think it'll be more "templated," more step by
3:24:41step... Do you agree, or would it be something else?
3:24:45Agreed. I think, right. So... The most important thing is to consider that
3:24:49this guy has become a student. So I like joking it's the person's first class.
3:24:54So my upsell page is like an unlocked first class. I congratulate them and all,
3:24:58but I show this... I get the person to see there's a way to "cut the line."
3:25:03And of course we add scarcity, that the person gets a video that shows
3:25:07up once and then disappears... But what's the
3:25:10narrative? How long is your upsell, how do you open?
3:25:13Man, our upsell today, if I'm not mistaken, is 15 minutes. Why? Because it's like a class.
3:25:20Really. It starts with: "You'll now get access. Congrats on the purchase. In this
3:25:24class I'll give you a special gift, only on this
3:25:27page, but first I wanna share a few things. Why?"
3:25:30Then you refine as needed. Like: "we care a lot about delivery, and we noticed many
3:25:35people struggling to get access."
3:25:37We also have an older audience, 40, 45 and up, who struggle with technology. So
3:25:41we used this page that opens instantly to pass along some information... And
3:25:45reinforce relevant things. Because we care about giving the person a great
3:25:49experience. So at the start, we congratulate them, mention the surprise
3:25:52at the end. About some way to get more results. And we put in... A mini
3:25:56hook about that. And then come back with: "But first, let me explain."
3:26:01"This tab has the training classes. And this other tab gives you access to the AI."
3:26:06"This one gives you access to the system." So I teach a bit, a little
3:26:10intro. Then I say: "If you stayed until here, you already got it... But I have
3:26:14something to reveal: there's a way to cut the line." And then I build this little
3:26:18story: "Remember I told you in the last... The last presentation, that
3:26:22there's this pillar? It determines whether you get there faster or slower."
3:26:27"We have a way to speed it up, because I'll do it for you so you don't make
3:26:31mistakes. Mistakes are part of the process, but I'll make sure you don't
3:26:34have that problem." That's the "guarantee." Making sure the person
3:26:38doesn't slip up. "It doesn't mean you click and print money... but you won't
3:26:41get the execution wrong, theoretically." We do
3:26:44this to back up the guy who's scared to execute.
3:26:46But is there a formula, man, that you use in the upsell? Like... "I start
3:26:51like this, then I say this, then that." Because, like, in the VSL, we have a lead.
3:26:56I do, yeah... it's in the... I can even send you guys the material. But I
3:27:00always revisit my material a lot, because I have
3:27:03ADHD and forget stuff. So, I congratulate them.
3:27:06And I usually do... Congrats, man. Congrats for buying it.
3:27:10Thanks for giving us your cash. Then I usually put
3:27:13something like: "if this video landed for you, it's because
3:27:15you were selected somehow. This video is gonna go off the air, and I...
3:27:19have something even crazier than what I just showed you."
3:27:22Give the guy a reason to watch the video. Exactly.
3:27:25It can be what you said. Or you could say: "Man... Your order isn't
3:27:29complete yet, watch the video below to..." Yeah, exactly. "To finish your order."
3:27:33Then I explain that. Then I reinforce the front's promise: "From here on, you're
3:27:38fully able to get this result in X time, and congrats for trusting us. It's gonna happen."
3:27:44"But like anything, something can speed up the process. And we know that."
3:27:48Only those ready to hear it received this video. And then I explain.
3:27:53I reinforce an explanation of a pillar from the
3:27:56VSL. Say, one pillar is the product with the store.
3:28:00I say: "You know that part where I say..." I recap it:
3:28:03"Remember when I talked about the pillars? That's what determines whether
3:28:06you get results or not." So I create that tension. Then I explain.
3:28:10I explain why the product matters... why that pillar matters. How the person can
3:28:14speed up results. And I really try to explain how they can do it.
3:28:18Because I say: "Man, you have 5,000 products and they're all cool, but some
3:28:22bring more profit. Why not start with the ones that make the most sense? So,
3:28:26We do that, and we do this curation for you." So I explain that
3:28:30pillar. I do the congrats, then explain why the video goes off the air...
3:28:34Then I get into a pillar that speeds things up.
3:28:37I reinforce a pillar from the front... a specific point we didn't cover much, but
3:28:41that's relevant for speeding up. Not decisive for results, but it accelerates.
3:28:45And it guarantees that. I also explain why it does
3:28:48or doesn't guarantee it, like I'm explaining the
3:28:51mechanism. I say the difference in this offer is that I'll do something for them.
3:28:55And you don’t actually mention a problem that the
3:28:57person is going to run into along the way. No.
3:28:59Straight to the opportunity.
3:29:00I do mention it, when I say they'll run into 5,000 products. And that they might
3:29:04get confused by that. And... when there are too many options, people get a
3:29:09lot of doubt. It's like I'm telling that free will story again... "So, there are
3:29:13the most validated ones." So there's always a mystery...
3:29:17I say: you'll find some good sellers. But whoever has the validated ones cuts the line.
3:29:20“So I’ll give this to you ready to go.” The problem is, they’ll have to search
3:29:23through a lot of products.
3:29:24But they all work, in a way. Because you also can't discredit. Like: "man, so if I
3:29:28don't have this I'm screwed?" No, it's just a way to speed up.
3:29:32And then I do the normal CTA, no big secret.
3:29:35I say: below, you can join... for 12 payments of some amount. I always say the
3:29:38installment price, never the full one.
3:29:4112 payments of some amount. Then I've got a little VSL hack, which I actually built.
3:29:45That I wanted to test on the upsell. Haven't yet. That, in the VSL, we...
3:29:50Can I tell the story real quick? Sure, man. Something that... Man, do whatever you want...
3:29:55Anything that doesn't break physics. So... I'll talk about it, because...
3:30:00It blew up on my Instagram. It's about a little
3:30:03hack during the pitch. There was this time...
3:30:07I "fought" with a team member... well, not
3:30:09exactly. I called one out during a launch of ours.
3:30:11Because... In the launch, we sell a 1,000 reais product. And this team
3:30:15member started sending a 1,500 reais checkout to buyers. And people freaked out.
3:30:19They just got a pitch for 1,000, then get a 1,500
3:30:22offer? I mean... When I saw it, I was like: "Man!"
3:30:25hey my coworker, my colleague." Help me out. What are you doing?
3:30:31So I went and explained the obvious, right. But anyway... I told him: "look..."
3:30:35Man... one thing is... One thing is... The product costs 1,000 reais and you send a...
3:30:41a 500 checkout. Then yeah, the person buys right away. And that got me thinking.
3:30:47Remember at the start I talked about opportunism and the "underdog mentality"?
3:30:52Opportunism plays in here too.
3:30:54I thought: "So if I say the value is X... and the guy finds a checkout at Y..."
3:31:01He acts faster. Because Brazilians think... "Dude, I just landed on a special
3:31:05link! Wow, they sent me the wrong one... I'm gonna
3:31:08take advantage. I'll be opportunistic and buy!"
3:31:11So I started taking a higher price to the VSL. It's 12 payments of 40. But at
3:31:16checkout, it's actually 12 payments of 30.
3:31:19That boosted our checkout conversion by over 100%. You might ask: "Come on, fewer
3:31:22people click the button, it's pricier?" But proportionally it paid off big. That
3:31:26was one of the pillars that took us from 200 to 300, that very change.
3:31:30I haven't tested this on the upsell yet. Or has the team? I don't think
3:31:35so, they would have told me. I wanna test it. We
3:31:38use 12 payments of 40. That solves two problems:
3:31:41First, checkout conversion goes up. Not sure that holds for every niche. But...
3:31:47Following the same principle that people are opportunistic... I think it works. I think so.
3:31:52Gotta see if it offsets fewer people clicking through to checkout, right?
3:31:56And... The other problem is that interest usually keeps going up, right?
3:32:01And over time, you have to keep re-recording that thing. And getting all
3:32:05the way to 12 payments of 40 takes a long time.
3:32:08So with this, I solve two problems at once.
3:32:10This idea came from a teammate's mistake. That's crazy. So, I'm
3:32:13telling you because... we're thinking of testing this, since you
3:32:15asked about the upsell. But in the upsell, I
3:32:18do state the actual price. People don't fall...
3:32:21for another link. Man, do you remember how much...
3:32:25What’s the exact conversion rate on your upsell?
3:32:30Because you already told me the ticket is 597. Do you remember the conversion?
3:32:33Man, depends on the day. It goes from 20 to
3:32:3630... Lemme do the math here, man. If it's 20%...
3:32:4120 to 30, around there. 597... 114... Wow.
3:32:46It's a lot, man. It helped us scale like crazy.
3:32:51Man, your upsell... If it's 20%... 20% conversion rate, that means...
3:32:58For every five sales of your front, you make one upsell sale. So if you sold five fronts,
3:33:06Then you make one 597 upsell sale. I make 2,000 reais. So this upsell sale...
3:33:13If we divide it by five... it's like every front sale you made raised that single sale
3:33:19by 119.4 reais, okay? That's a lot. But your ticket is 297, man.
3:33:27So your ticket is 297. And if we take the 119 value... And add it up, alright? With 297...
3:33:37And then divide by 297... We get a 40% increase
3:33:41in average ticket, man. A lot. That's insane, man.
3:33:45This upsell of yours... It's an extremely good upsell. It's really good.
3:33:49That’s really good. And... Generally, what I recommend to people is
3:33:53aiming for 25 to 30%. I already consider that a good range. Your upsell is excellent.
3:33:59We always try to improve the upsell. And...
3:34:03Man, it saves us big time. Since we came in strong, we kinda... The average
3:34:07ticket goes up so much that we can... Consume the
3:34:11market. People can't compete much with our CPA.
3:34:15Because... We still have upsell number two. Which is 797.
3:34:20Which raises that average ticket even more.
3:34:24So... This is a game, man, that lets us kinda dominate the market for a
3:34:28while. Until someone figures out something similar. That's because we have
3:34:32the CPA for it. I can maybe pay 297. Do you see these...
3:34:37These upsell numbers... even with your mentees?
3:34:40Or is it more of an offer thing, you think?
3:34:43Do you mean... If we see 20%? What I mean is... I
3:34:46don't really calculate in conversion... I always
3:34:49calculate like: "Man, how much does the upsell lift the front?" I see that...
3:34:55That it's considerable. Because... How does it work? Usually, I don't
3:34:59know why... But usually our mentees have a really low CPM.
3:35:03They're good at traffic. So, naturally... Yes
3:35:06It's Gustavo. It's because... Gustavo's a beast.
3:35:08But the ads get rejected... Accounts go down,
3:35:10they need another account... Because our CTRs are always really strong. Other
3:35:14people's are more average. But the CPM is really low.
3:35:17We say: "Man, you should be converting a ton." And we get that the average ticket is low.
3:35:21That's why they don't profit much. They profit,
3:35:24like... They're not hitting 50k or 100k.
3:35:26And we notice that... People don't have that.
3:35:31So... Usually the first thing we do is fix that, then adjust the rest.
3:35:34Because changing that alone would solve a lot. And it always has to be well
3:35:38structured. So we set it up first and improve the rest.
3:35:42So... That's not normal. It's not normal to have an average ticket like ours.
3:35:46It's insane, man, it's really high.
3:35:48It's not normal. Competitors either. We talk to a lot of side income folks.
3:35:52It's not normal. It'd be normal if you consider the whole funnel forward, right?
3:35:56Like, with the ascensions and everything... But directly, no.
3:36:00Yeah, insane. And we also have downsells.
3:36:03So every upsell has a downsell. Both one and two. So it's something that... Man,
3:36:07when this upsell drops... We clearly see it. Our
3:36:10CPM is really high. Cost per click too. Even with a
3:36:13high CTR. It's out of our control, we have to keep finding good ad accounts.
3:36:17So that's what sustains us a lot. But I think that's why we got really good at
3:36:20this. Because we always said: "Let's not fight Facebook, man."
3:36:24In this game, things always get more expensive... So I need a strong backend,
3:36:28which is the ascensions and launches... But I need a direct funnel there, with
3:36:31the things that'll sustain me. Otherwise I won't
3:36:34have enough people for those sales rotations.
3:36:36And so... we added upsell 1... Then we improved upsell 1, that also had low
3:36:40conversion... When we sold at 197, the upsell didn't sell.
3:36:43We changed to 297, improved the upsell, and it started selling. Then we thought:
3:36:47"we need a higher average ticket."
3:36:48Not to make money right now, but to know that this will give us enough runway to
3:36:52have time to work on other things. So we added an upsell 2. Everything with a downsell.
3:36:57And that's where we left it. We stopped at the
3:36:59second one. Nothing stops us from a third. But...
3:37:02Since we have a sales team, because what we do is pretty intense,
3:37:07And so... We don't work with many products, because...
3:37:10We're constantly evolving the sales team. They sell two products, the first and the
3:37:14second. We do that so it doesn't get too complicated, you know? So...
3:37:18Man... and how's the editing on the upsell video?
3:37:22Because I know the VSL format matters a lot.
3:37:25If we record the VSL in format X, Y or Z... Same with creatives... So you always
3:37:30vary the creative formats... If you vary the VSL format, you'll get similar performance.
3:37:36And the VSL format? You said that...
3:37:39You imply it's a class. So I imagine it'd be a format like the one we have
3:37:44here... With one camera for the expert... How is it? Actually, no. This is an upsell that...
3:37:50In fact... we're gonna re-record it again.
3:37:53I wanna take out that class part. To run a test. Anyway... But that's good, okay?
3:37:57Yeah, it's good. I just wanna... run a test. I like testing things.
3:38:01I just wanna validate it. Because man, we have a much bigger support team nowadays.
3:38:05So, can't we tweak that? Maybe we don't actually need it? I don't know. Let's see.
3:38:09And... Because, like... 20 to 30 is nice... But let me see if I can get to 40.
3:38:14Like with 100. When we did 100k a day, we had to hit 200. Because if we hit 200,
3:38:18when it drops, it drops to 150. If I let it drop from 100, it drops to 50, and
3:38:22we'd be screwed. So I always aim higher. I wanna
3:38:24hit 40 eventually. So I need to test things.
3:38:26So, here's the thing: The format he does... He doesn't do that class format.
3:38:33He does... He's sitting on... On a chair. Like in a bistro. And talks to the person.
3:38:39It's not the format. I wanna change it too. Still thinking. I wanna change the
3:38:44VSL format too, test formats with the same copy. Man... What do you think of that?
3:38:49Whether it's a valid test? Yeah. It's valid. Like... I'll take the same copy and redo it.
3:38:54Do a podcast format. Record something like that. With someone interviewing the
3:38:58expert, like we're doing here now. Like... Rent
3:39:03a... A theater. Or a cinema. Like he's on a stage.
3:39:08Giving a talk, you know? Do a talk show format.
3:39:11Because I think that'd be easier. It'd be the same copy re-recorded. I think it's
3:39:15easier than writing something else, all over again. No doubt about it...
3:39:20It's ideal. And actually...
3:39:23You can have multiple formats. You can start with something really wild at the
3:39:27beginning... What people call a micro lead. And then eventually transition to a
3:39:31standard format. Could even be the current
3:39:34one. And I think if you only change the format,
3:39:37Of your micro lead, from the start of the lead, to a point that makes sense...
3:39:41Maybe up to when he tells his story... Although
3:39:44you said he tells that around minute five, right?
3:39:46Maybe, with that six by one schedule thing... And adding some newspaper
3:39:49headlines, stuff like that... It might be
3:39:51interesting to give more emphasis to that, you know?
3:39:54Yeah, and... I've actually seen those mini... Mini hooks.
3:39:59I've tested a lot putting the creative itself in the mini hook.
3:40:02For 30 seconds or so. Like, me reacting. And then out of nowhere the video starts.
3:40:07Because the CTA kinda fits with starting his video: "I'm gonna show you the guy
3:40:09who taught me this," then his video starts. Yeah, yeah. Nice. But it worked. But we were
3:40:14switching VSLs at the time, and anyway... We kept the leads that were converting more.
3:40:18Yeah... What I'd change in your upsell, man, would be, actually... Nothing.
3:40:23Because I think it's really good with that conversion, man. That conversion
3:40:27with that average ticket, right? I think that... If you manage...
3:40:33If you could, like... If today you're selling 300 reais,
3:40:37And if you manage 450... in average ticket...
3:40:42Of the offer... Maybe you'd have a... You're talking about the front?
3:40:45Yeah, because today you sell the front at 297, and there's upsell number 1
3:40:48contributing, so that's another 119... So that goes to 420...
3:40:54Then there's upsell two... It'd be around 500...
3:40:57On upsell 2 the conversion is way lower. That's insane. But it'd be like 500,
3:41:00something like that. And... I have to admit, I think that... Gustavo has to confirm.
3:41:05But... The numbers are excellent, man. I wouldn't change much on the
3:41:08upsell, no. I think I'd change... But I think... I have this fear that...
3:41:13That it might be dropping... And I like to aim for more, so that when it drops I
3:41:16can be in a safer position.
3:41:18Man, one thing that... I wanted a different format. To record differently.
3:41:22If there's one thing I can guarantee will happen... it's that performance will
3:41:25drop. Exactly. There’s no such thing as never going down. It happens all the time...
3:41:29It'll drop, you know? And that's something folks at home have to
3:41:32understand. That's important. People think you'll always be able to do that. And it's not
3:41:35true. Yeah. It'll drop at some point. But then what do you do? You go and do it again,
3:41:39you know? You change things... Yeah, I wrote... I've
3:41:42written 48 leads... For this Singapore VSL. And I haven't tested all of them, I'm testing.
3:41:47Yeah. That's how it works, man.
3:41:49The cool thing about this game is that we can... test in two or three days...
3:41:54see what's happening, then fix something. It's not a launch that takes forever.
3:41:59Yeah... one question, how long does your lead last?
3:42:03How so? Normally, how long do your leads last?
3:42:06Man... I don't really think in time... Like, I usually think in word count.
3:42:12So it's around 600 to 1,000 words. Because my
3:42:16leads are relatively short, you know. Anyway...
3:42:19Like, it's a video hook. Two to three minutes, and the sequence starts.
3:42:24Right. In a standard VSL with a lead... And also, like I said...
3:42:28With that opening I mentioned, then comes the
3:42:30curiosity element... And then... I start the story...
3:42:34where he tells the hero's story... How things
3:42:36were bad, he found a problem, then the solution...
3:42:39Everything before the story is the lead. And
3:42:42then, this chunk sits somewhere between 500 and...
3:42:46Under 1,000 words... a 1,000 word lead is already big, I think.
3:42:50I think my leads that scaled the most were 700 word leads. But it doesn't
3:42:54really change the time much. Because, man, I can
3:42:58speed up the VSL. VTurb even has that. We use
3:43:00VTurb for that. Yeah. Yeah. VTurb has a feature that does exactly that.
3:43:05So it's something that... it's something I definitely recommend testing,
3:43:08you know? Testing that acceleration. Because at 1.1, here's what happens...
3:43:14You'll be guessing, right? Like... at 1.1 speed... Yeah, we tested.
3:43:17At 1.1, or 1.2... we've already run those tests. Oh, okay, cool.
3:43:22We use VTurb a lot. Every feature it has, we test. Nice, man. We use
3:43:251.1. I wish we could go faster, since less VSL time means more retention.
3:43:29But 1.1 is better. It gets confusing. Yeah. The audio gets really bad.
3:43:34It has to be exactly in... like, the sweet spot. And man, usually the
3:43:38audio that converts most is one you think is too fast. But really, it's not. You know?
3:43:43That's insane. And honestly, that even surprised me.
3:43:47Because I always heard people talk about VSL, and stuff...
3:43:50But I saw it and thought, man, this seems too fast, but the data showed it
3:43:55converted the most. That's usually for a younger
3:43:58audience, though. And selling to older audiences...
3:44:01Usually 1X was what performed best. And sometimes 0.9X, okay? Depending on who's
3:44:05talking... And what's happening in the video. I'm a fast talker.
3:44:10It's because... It's the same thing as the TikTok format, man. Why do we make
3:44:14a "TikTok-style" creative, like you said earlier? Because it's something people
3:44:18are already used to consuming. And the same applies to video speed.
3:44:23Some folks wanna watch at 2x... Some wanna watch at, like, zero point... I
3:44:27dunno... 8x. It depends on the person. Like Miss Maria, who's 90... In the,
3:44:31I dunno, diabetes niche... She might not even understand what's happening, you know?
3:44:37A really old person isn't gonna... be into a higher speed. But in your niche...
3:44:43Damn... people must watch stuff at 1.2X speed at minimum, you know? Yeah. I usually watch
3:44:48at 1.1X or so. That's cool, what you said.
3:44:50Because I speed up my Instagram videos a bit, I
3:44:53already talk fast. I'm like, "gotta fit in two minutes to go viral."
3:44:57Sometimes I'm like, oh my God, I'm Eminem. People even comment on it. But
3:45:00everyone gets it, and, like...
3:45:03The video engages. And people comment, "Is that Eminem?" Then I'm like, "It's
3:45:07the digital Eminem." Screw it.
3:45:08I saw one of your creatives the other day... And, man... you really do talk
3:45:12fast. You can't speed that video up, or you're screwed.
3:45:14Because people can't understand. Yeah... it's insane. So... what'd you think of the podcast?
3:45:21Man, I thought it was great.
3:45:23Like... I don't know what people'll think. We talked a lot. Especially me,
3:45:26sorry, I'm basically Eminem. But that's your job. Yeah.
3:45:30You get that... it'd be worse the other way around, right?
3:45:34Yeah, true. We host a podcast in our city too, and we know how bad it is when
3:45:38there's no topic, or the person stops giving more. It's the opposite. Yeah,
3:45:41it's awful. And on my Instagram, you'll get tons of that kind of content,
3:45:45so... What's your Instagram? If I'm Eminem here, I'm
3:45:47Eminem there too. Even worse, with only two minutes
3:45:50to talk. What's your Instagram? My Instagram is
3:45:52@Joaovitortaf. I'm thinking about changing that name.
3:45:54Because it's my behind the scenes name... So I
3:45:57gotta switch it. If I wanna be Mr. Beast. Right?
3:46:00I'll find a cool name later. Mr. Taf.
3:46:02I've got a nickname, it's called "Tafas". Maybe it becomes Tafas.
3:46:05Tafuri is cool. My last name's cool. Cool. I like it. And mine is "Campos"...
3:46:11Yeah, Campos is kinda lame... No offense. And your name isn't even João, right? What is it?
3:46:17It's... João Eduardo Souza. Souza... "de Campos"
3:46:20"De Campos"... João Eduardo. "João Edu," for those who don't know.
3:46:23Campos is annoying, man. But my sister's is
3:46:26worse, it's Silva. Wow, same as Gustavo. And...
3:46:29What's the name of that song? Like... he's just another "Silva..." Yeah.
3:46:35You know it? I tell her, "hey, you're just another Silva." Teasing my sister.
3:46:40I tease Gustavo too. Everybody has his last name.
3:46:43He's a Silva too? Yeah, one of them. There's a million Silvas, right? Cool, man. But...
3:46:50I know you're putting on an event with Gustavo. It's called The Structure.
3:46:56So I'd like you to talk about the event.
3:46:59For the folks watching us... And maybe someone who... got interested in
3:47:03the content, and might already have a VSL, or
3:47:06not... Tell us about it and what's gonna happen.
3:47:09Here's the deal. This event, called "The Structure,"
3:47:12is happening October 1st and 2nd, 2026, if
3:47:14you're watching this before then. It's an event
3:47:18we put together... because we've helped a lot of
3:47:21people, since we started scaling. And especially the launch crowd, to build
3:47:25a business. We helped many people hit insane numbers, that even we were shocked to see.
3:47:32We helped a lot of people for free. Then, since it took so much time, we started
3:47:36helping folks one-on-one. And we charged a
3:47:39lot... like, six figures. And we saw that, man...
3:47:42We validated the hypothesis of our methodology. Like I told you before,
3:47:45we've always tried to build replicable things. So we're not living through highs
3:47:50and lows, or depending on an expert or not... Anyway. Especially for
3:47:53behind-the-scenes people, or a co-producer.
3:47:56We landed on a denominator where anyone can do this. Regardless of niche, or the
3:48:00size of the expert. Small expert, big expert, you can get results.
3:48:05Obviously there are result limits... But our promise, our idea, is to get
3:48:09everybody to at least 10 thousand reais in profit.
3:48:13With the VSL funnel. Especially paired with the three stages we talk about. The
3:48:17three layers, VSL, ascensions and launches. So we're gonna teach how we do
3:48:21all three and we'll hold people's hands and help them at this event.
3:48:25Ten thousand in profit per day. Per day.
3:48:28So... Or more, right? Of course. If it's more, even better. But we can do it
3:48:33regardless of niche, and regardless of the expert's size. We've got a whole
3:48:37methodology built to make that happen. And this
3:48:40event is also an immersion. An implementation event.
3:48:43It's not a lecture or anything... I'll be there. Gustavo's gonna be there. And
3:48:47we'll break all this down in a much more organized way... Designed, obviously, to
3:48:51help whoever's there. So they leave with something ready. And our...
3:48:55Our promise is that we teach people to think, but also hand them the tools to
3:48:59execute on the spot. Not just theory.
3:49:02So they start having autonomy. So we never see them again. "Look, you got results."
3:49:06Because we won't live off mentoring forever. Get lost, man. Right? Like...
3:49:10it's part of the business that this happens. "So we never see them again."
3:49:13Yeah. And creating teaching products is something I, personally... and Gustavo
3:49:17knows... I've always loved.
3:49:19I've always made stuff to teach people. I've always been a teacher type. That's
3:49:22why I started posting lessons and courses on Instagram. I think it's cool. Nice.
3:49:26And this event is for that. One way of doing it. Of course it generates
3:49:30revenue, branding, authority... We wanna take our name to other places, and get
3:49:34into other projects, in other ways... We also
3:49:36focus on other things, beyond digital as it is now.
3:49:39We wanna build this together with people. So everybody gets the result we
3:49:43were always promised in digital, but that always came in waves. It's a way to
3:49:47keep surfing well, making good money in digital, knowing these three pillars.
3:49:52I believe the VSL itself, the way it's blown up, is the first pillar for
3:49:56generating huge results. In other sales actions. In the project overall. So...
3:50:02Folks... It's happening, okay? October 1st and 2nd. I've got more info, too.
3:50:06On my profile, type "Estrutura", or in my stories, or in some content. Or message
3:50:10me if this video drops before, right. Before the event. Before, yeah. It'll be before.
3:50:14Hit me up there, and we'll find a way to get you in, 'cause it's only 100 spots.
3:50:19It's really exclusive. So I think... Anyway... depending on who
3:50:22reaches out, we might squeeze in a few more people, maybe. Nice, man. Deal?
3:50:26Man, your Instagram is @Joaovitortaf, right?
3:50:29T-A-F at the end. Folks, João's Instagram is gonna show up one more time. @Joaovitortaf
3:50:34So, man, if you liked the content... And you wanna
3:50:38learn more about... How to build this system...
3:50:41To sell more info products... And not just bring in revenue, guys, but profit.
3:50:46That's what matters most...
3:50:48People forget that a lot, right? They only think revenue, but man... The game
3:50:51is profit. How much money goes in your pocket. That's why we're here.
3:50:55If it was just about revenue... It'd be way easier,
3:50:58right? We wouldn't have, Just spend on traffic.
3:51:01Exactly. Grab a bunch of investments... spend
3:51:03it all. I dunno, buy your own product, whatever.
3:51:05Yeah. Just to win a plaque, right? Anyway... So,
3:51:08this opportunity is out there, okay? In case you're
3:51:11interested. And man... I always close the podcast letting the guest say
3:51:16something cool to the VTurb audience. Anything. Doesn't have to be anything
3:51:21special... You can say whatever you want. To the VTurb audience. So...
3:51:26Look at that camera over there...
3:51:29So, leave a message. Some people talk about God... Some people give some
3:51:32motivation... Some people reinforce the podcast's content...
3:51:36Some people say, "Ah, nothing to say, that's it." Man, take all the time you
3:51:40want, and say something cool for everybody. I'll say something
3:51:42that, I think... out of everything we took from this learning,
3:51:45and this whole journey... that me and my partner
3:51:48walked... And went through, all these years...
3:51:51We talked a lot about a key pillar here, the 80/20 of everything. The offer.
3:51:56I think if you were gonna revisit any content here, it'd be the offer
3:52:00building part. And where we choose to use that offer,
3:52:04is what defines the funnels, etc. But... The core of everything is the offer. The
3:52:08heart of how to build it. And, talking about the emotional side we went through...
3:52:13Man... for a long time, Gustavo and I...
3:52:16We’re really skeptical of the digital marketing space as a whole.
3:52:19Of course, we never had a plan B... I actually...
3:52:23I left college recently. Me too, man. Really?
3:52:26I did two... So you didn't finish college? What? Unfinished college? Yeah. Me too.
3:52:32I was five classes short, but I quit... I left college. And I got in
3:52:36first place, man. It was my dream.
3:52:38Then I found digital at 19, no going back. In 2019 I stopped going to class,
3:52:42or 2020... Only five classes short. And I never
3:52:45finished them, to build this project with Gustavo.
3:52:48Didn't finish college, burned some bridges... And
3:52:51why? Because we know the digital market works.
3:52:54We just weren't finding certain things because there's so much information.
3:52:58So we managed to compile it all concisely. Instead of chasing all that
3:53:02noise, we focused on one thing and made it happen. There are ways to make money
3:53:06in digital, consistently. It's not like, "I'm
3:53:09rich" or "I'm broke"... Every business has some of
3:53:11that. But it can get better, so don't quit.
3:53:13Find people. Could be us, or others, who found ways to make it happen. It's not
3:53:18about big money at first. It's about staying consistent. Real profit comes
3:53:21from that consistency you keep applying.
3:53:24So if you're doing launches today... and you're frustrated, or your VSL hasn't
3:53:28worked yet... there are ways to make it work. This isn't a pitch for the event.
3:53:32It's for anyone teaching. Lots of good people teach. But know there's a way to
3:53:36make it work. You just gotta find the right people to show you the path, and
3:53:40have the drive to make it happen. I know this might sound really cliche, but...
3:53:44We had a situation two years ago, where
3:53:47we thought about doing completely different things. Because things weren't working.
3:53:51Through the VSL funnel, mainly, plus all our know-how and repertoire of mixing
3:53:55things... And turning it into a methodology, got us to where we are today.
3:53:59My dream was to be on a podcast. We had our own, but I wanted to be on others'.
3:54:02To share our knowledge, with that teacher angle. So...
3:54:05it's a total pleasure seeing you guys somehow. I can't see you, but feel hugged.
3:54:11I'll hug João to make up for it. So that's it. Keep moving forward. Keep going. Take that!
3:54:21Guys... Take that. So, that was another episode
3:54:25of the Scaling Secrets podcast. If you liked
3:54:28it, drop us a like. If possible, right? If you can. Did I pay for your hotel? Tell them.
3:54:34You did. Paid for your lunch? He paid for everything.
3:54:36I didn’t spend a dime on this trip. Nothing,
3:54:38right? I wanna stay till the weekend. Hold on, man...
3:54:41You already delivered the content, buddy. So...
3:54:43Now you can go. Yeah, just bring on the next guest. You won’t even have an Uber.
3:54:47But, guys... I had a driver. Really nice. A ton of
3:54:50stuff, man. Wasn't cheap. It was pricey. Expensive.
3:54:53So, man... I do all this to make it easier for people to come here and make
3:54:57content. So you at home can watch. It's free content. Quality content.
3:55:02At least that's what we set out to do, and we work hard at it. So you can
3:55:06change your reality, and your business's, your family's, your revenue...
3:55:10So... if you can... Leave a like on the video. Just hit that little button down
3:55:15there and show us some support. That way, the
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