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Elder Holland - Liar Liar Pants on Fire - One LDS Apostles Consistent Habit of Dishonesty — Transcript

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0:00it's wrong to criticize
0:03leaders of the church even if the
0:05criticism is true
0:07[Laughter]
0:11no that is not the laugh from infants on
0:13thrones this is mormon discussion
0:15podcast i'm your host bill reel
0:17today we're going to be unfortunately
0:21being honest and authentic to the data
0:24in spite of elder oaks teaching us that
0:27it is wrong to criticize a leader of the
0:29church
0:30even if the criticism is true because
0:33when you
0:33say that take a step back if you are an
0:37orthodox believing mormon or you're just
0:39maybe you're a progressive believing
0:41mormon
0:41take a step back if you're in an
0:44institution
0:45where you are um
0:48imposed upon you an unhealthy
0:52encouragement
0:53and i don't mean encouragement like you
0:55just shouldn't do that but whatever
0:57like don't do it if you it is imposed
1:00upon you to not criticize
1:02the the authorities within your
1:05institution
1:07ask yourself outside of mormonism if
1:09that's a healthy mechanism and then be
1:12willing to stand up and say you know
1:13what if it's not not healthy anywhere
1:16else in the world
1:17it damn well sure isn't healthy here so
1:20today we're going to address
1:22uh actually i consider him a friend let
1:24me give you some backstory we're going
1:25to talk today about elder holland
1:27and i've been making this point over and
1:29over again in social media
1:31i'm going to make it today on the
1:32podcast and i've got a multitude of
1:34examples to show it
1:35um in the middle of my faith crisis i'm
1:3732 years old i'm serving as a bishop
1:40and i for the like
1:44i wake up one morning and for the first
1:45time i recognize like oh my goodness
1:49i i thought i could figure out a way
1:51that this all fit together it doesn't
1:52fit together
1:54wow this is way messier than i thought
1:56it was
1:57and i've been trying i mean i i spend
2:00every
2:01week of my life up to that point
2:04and after
2:08reading studying diving into mormonism
2:11reading the scriptures
2:12studying the words of the prophets
2:14reading as much as i could
2:16and so at 32 years old i i wake up one
2:19morning and it's like this
2:20doesn't fit anymore and i don't know
2:23what to do and i'm scared to death if i
2:24tell anybody
2:25what if i tell my stake president i'm
2:27the bishop what if i what if i tell my
2:28counselors what if i tell my wife
2:32i can't tell anyone because i know that
2:35inside this group i know what happens
2:39to people who express doubt and i've
2:42heard
2:42horror stories of divorces and ends of
2:46relationships that happen
2:48so what do i do i don't know what to do
2:50and
2:51and my favorite apostle the guy i look
2:54to i'm like that guy
2:56he's if anybody's gonna understand he's
2:59gonna understand
3:00he's gonna have compassion and so i
3:02reach out and i write
3:04a letter to elder jeffrey r holland
3:10and he contacts marlon k
3:13jensen and marlon k jensen reaches out
3:15to me and talks to me by phone
3:18and by email and then about six months
3:20later maybe less than that
3:22four months later i get a phone call
3:25on my cell phone at work from the
3:28secretary at elder holland's office
3:30and says elder holland would like to
3:31talk to you do you have a moment and i
3:34said absolutely and i went and found a
3:35quiet room
3:37and she patched me through to elder
3:39jeffrey r holland
3:40and elder holland talked to me by phone
3:43and as well as email i love elder
3:47holland
3:47he's charismatic he's jovial
3:51he he comes across as being
3:53understanding
3:54of the messiness and
3:58some of his talks seemed to want to make
4:00room
4:01for that and
4:04and he i felt sincerely reached out
4:08and and tried to comfort me
4:12in this this rough patch but
4:15what i didn't know then that i
4:17understand now
4:20is the pressure on these leaders to
4:22publicly be one person
4:25and privately another and
4:28it is this incongruity
4:32that in some ways is at the heart of why
4:35mormonism
4:36can't shift can't move can't change
4:42and uh sometime later elder holland came
4:46out to
4:47our region there was a regional
4:49[Music]
4:51meeting of sorts and my wife and i we go
4:56and elder holland gives a talk he knew i
4:58was going to be there
4:59i messaged him by email that i was
5:02coming to that he said make sure you
5:03come find me
5:04and so when the thing was over i walked
5:06to the front
5:08me and my wife and i walk up and i shake
5:11his hand and i say elder holland it's
5:13bill real
5:14and elder holland leans over the uh the
5:18little wall
5:18in front of the stand and reaches over
5:21and grabs my ear
5:24and says the the famous bill reel and he
5:27shakes my ear
5:28it was this gesture of
5:31friendship of love and
5:35and i appreciated it i had hoped for a
5:38chance to talk he said come find me
5:39we'll talk for a bit and that didn't
5:40work out
5:41that didn't happen but
5:45moving along i kept reaching out to
5:47elder holland and as you
5:48understand from this process my
5:51questions
5:52became
5:57more how can i explain it this because
5:59this is important
6:00i think when you go to the leaders and
6:03say like i have really hard questions
6:05and i'll let you answer them how you
6:08want to
6:09and even if your answer is
6:11unsatisfactory
6:13i will just let it be because who am i
6:17to push you for a better answer who am i
6:21to uh walk your answers logic
6:24out and so as long as you talk to these
6:28leaders specifically elder holland
6:30as long as you talk to these leaders and
6:31say like
6:33just tell me what you can tell me and
6:35i'll be happy with what you give
6:38then they'll talk and they're going to
6:41not be vulnerable
6:45they'll give you a fluffy answer and
6:48move on
6:49and your job is to accept that answer
6:51because the moment you say like
6:54you know elder holland or elder oaks
6:57that answer is insufficient and here's
7:00why
7:01and i'd like to know the the answers to
7:04these questions
7:06and i realize like this puts you in a
7:07tough spot because
7:09if you answer these you're going to
7:12reveal more than you want to
7:16the moment you begin to get into that
7:18space
7:20the conversations between me and elder
7:21holland became just one way
7:24i would email him i would message him
7:27and i would get no responses back
7:30because i was no longer flatly accepting
7:33the responses he gave
7:35and i wanted to push back on his logic i
7:37wasn't being mean
7:39i wasn't being rude
7:42but i did my questions weren't easy
7:44questions they were tough
7:45and they were they were asked with a
7:49stubbornness that i'm not going to play
7:50the game anymore
7:52i'm going to ask the question and i'm
7:55going to walk your logic out
7:56and i'm going to ask the next question
7:58that your answer
8:00begs me to ask and i'm going to push
8:03and i'll do so friendly and i'll do so
8:05kindly but i'm going to push
8:07and at that point the conversation ended
8:10from that point forward i sent maybe
8:12four or five other messages no responses
8:13so i i've essentially
8:15ended that other than i've sent
8:18and the podcast has sent with my backing
8:22uh messages to um
8:26more than one top leader and elder
8:27holland was included in those
8:28conversations
8:31so today as much as
8:34i appreciate
8:37uh elder holland's
8:41early relationship with me and
8:44his taking time to spend with me
8:47even though i could sense he would not
8:52that our relationship was only of value
8:54to him as long as i would
8:56flatly accept what he was saying
8:59and and that's not a real relationship
9:01at all right
9:02as much as i appreciate that today we're
9:04going to expose elder holland
9:07as somebody who's deeply dishonest on a
9:09regular basis
9:11and and i hope i hope you'll sit with
9:13this like i know as a believer as an
9:15orthodox member you'll be like ah
9:17here's the here's the deal if we're not
9:20willing to sit and listen to hard things
9:22then we're really not a truth seeker
9:25to be a true seeker we have to hear all
9:27sides
9:29we have to take in the information no
9:30matter how uncomfortable it is
9:32and we have to make an informed decision
9:35based on that data
9:38and so elder oaks the idea that we can't
9:40criticize leaders i'm sorry
9:43if a leader is
9:46a deceiver
9:50on a regular basis i think that needs
9:54addressed
9:55and because that leader speaks publicly
9:58to lots and lots of people
10:00i don't think a private conversation
10:02behind the scenes
10:04or a prayer to god to fix it resolves
10:07the problem
10:08it is a public issue in it so it needs a
10:11public conversation
10:13so with that let's go
10:17to the first piece of audio
10:23i hold in my hand
10:27that book the very
10:30copy from which hiram read
10:34the same corner of the page
10:37turned down still visible
10:42later when actually incarcerated in the
10:45jail
10:46joseph the prophet turned to the guards
10:50who held him captive
10:52and bore a powerful testimony of the
10:55divine
10:56on authenticity of the book of mormon
11:01shortly thereafter pistol and ball
11:05would take the lives of these two
11:08testators this was from the october 2009
11:13general conference this is elder
11:14holland's talk
11:15safety for the soul this is where he
11:19he tells us if we're if the critic is
11:21going to
11:22um work through
11:26the problems of the church he's gonna
11:27have to crawl through
11:29under around over between uh the book of
11:32mormon
11:33right and i hope you sense here
11:37part of the dishonesty is when we don't
11:40tell the full story
11:42it's not only when we tell a flat out
11:44lie which i'm going to challenge here
11:45that i think there's a flat out lie here
11:46as well
11:47but but i also want to recognize that
11:50when we don't give people the full story
11:53we also intentionally because the full
11:56story
11:57has a opposite effect of the story
12:00you're telling
12:02then i think we're also being deceptive
12:04and that is also
12:05lying and dishonest elder holland says
12:08i am holding the copy the very
12:11copy of the book from which hiram read
12:14the corner of the page turned down
12:18now let me propose the lie
12:22and then also the obfuscation
12:25the lie is that the church has talked
12:27about this copy of the book of mormon
12:30i believe it's in the hands of the
12:31church history department
12:33um this copy you can see pictures of
12:36this copy is worn and tattered
12:40it has lost its color on the outside
12:43very faded
12:45you can see that it is not in the best
12:47of shape although still in good shape
12:49not in the best of shape and the church
12:51has again
12:52shown multiple pictures of it when you
12:55compare it to the book elder holland is
12:57holding up
12:58in conference you will see that the book
13:01elder holland is holding
13:02is in mint condition it is in gorgeous
13:06shape
13:07one has to wonder if they didn't want
13:09him holding the other copy
13:11the actual copy that the church claims
13:13is this copy
13:15now apologists and others have come in
13:18and said
13:19after critics said whoa whoa wait a
13:21minute
13:22he's not holding the same book the book
13:25he's holding in conference is in mint
13:27condition and by the way
13:29when you go into this episode on
13:32mormondiscussionpodcast.org
13:33which is the master site with all of our
13:35hosts and all of their programs
13:38or md for mormon discussion
13:42mdpodcast.org
13:44which is only mormon discussions
13:46material
13:48in this episode in the notes in the
13:50resources you will see
13:51links to the pictures of both the one
13:54elder holland is holding
13:56a picture of him holding it as well as
13:58the worn and tattered copy that the
14:00church
14:00claims is this copy that elder holland
14:04holding the mint condition book up says
14:06no no
14:07this is the copy the very copy of the
14:09book the corner of the page
14:11still turned down from which hiram read
14:14so critics come out after this talk and
14:16said wait a minute we remember seeing in
14:18this church
14:19uh this this article perhaps i think
14:21deseret news or somewhere else
14:23where they talk about this copy we've
14:25seen the pictures it's not the same book
14:27it's not the same book and when that
14:30happened the apologists and defenders of
14:31the faith and the church itself came out
14:33and said
14:34oh well um actually actually
14:37there are several copies several copies
14:41of this book
14:42from which hiram read and in each of
14:44these books he turns the corner of the
14:46page down and
14:47he gave a copy to all of these people
14:50after he read it
14:51i've never heard that story before and i
14:53would love
14:55to see the historical data for that
14:58because i've i've learned in this church
15:01that way too often
15:03we create stories to explain
15:07problematic data and the story has
15:10no source the story has no reference
15:14thomas marsh leaving over milk and
15:16strippings is a problematic story
15:18we keep telling it but the actual
15:21sources are
15:21really weak in fact there's one source
15:24it's really weak
15:25really really weak and so it's not fair
15:29to do it this way so i will challenge if
15:32anybody wants to present me with the
15:34historical data that
15:35shows that hiram smith had multiple
15:38copies
15:39read from each of those copies in the
15:41same section
15:42turned the corner of the page down in
15:44each of those and then handed them out
15:46to various family members
15:48wonderful the other issue is even if
15:50that's true
15:52elder holland for emotional appeal
15:55says he is holding the copy the very
15:58copy
15:59that wording imposes that there is one
16:02copy
16:03and he has it so there's another that's
16:06the obfuscation
16:08but again look at the two books they're
16:10different he's not holding the very copy
16:13from which hiram read the corner of the
16:15page turned down
16:16but perhaps maybe maybe somebody after
16:18this episode will send me some
16:20information and say like no no bill i
16:21know we're claiming this but
16:23here's the evidence here's the facts
16:26we've got these sources these journal
16:27entries we know that
16:29multiple family members are getting a
16:31copy of the book of mormon
16:32and while bathsheba didn't take very
16:35good care of hers
16:36uh you know jane doe took beautiful care
16:39of her copy and elder holland just made
16:41an innocent mistake
16:42happy to hear it the trouble here is
16:44there's a pattern
16:46there's a pattern here here's the next
16:48one
16:51we'll take we'll take us we'll take a
16:53stand on moral issues but we try to stay
16:55out of anything that's just
16:56traditionally political okay so that
16:58actually sort of leads to my question
17:00which is
17:00could you elaborate on the instances in
17:04which the church will take a political
17:06stance what immediately comes to mind is
17:08the often cited sort of
17:10material impact the church had on the
17:12passage of the proposition prop 8
17:14let's use that let's use that example
17:16and then also sort of how
17:18whatever that political involvement
17:20would be would be squared with
17:22the notion that for instance americans
17:25ability
17:25to have people exercise their beliefs
17:28sure
17:29actually led to the ability of the
17:30church to bloom in the way sure
17:32good point first of all let me work
17:34backwards all we asked in proposition 8
17:36was the right to exercise
17:38our vote we just asked for religious
17:41privilege to cast a vote
17:43we did not want to be disenfranchised
17:45institutionally
17:46not a single dollar not one red cent
17:49of money from the church of jesus christ
17:51of latter-day saint went into
17:52proposition 8
17:53or any other comparable proposition that
17:55i know of here
17:57elder holland claims that the church
18:00has not spent a single dollar
18:04not a single red cent now again
18:08there's a problem and the problem is
18:12that uh and it's twofold
18:16one is the way he's wording this and
18:18what he's trying to create
18:20when you listen to the question and the
18:22answer again oftentimes
18:24it we as mormons
18:27we have a group identity and we have an
18:30individual identity and we often
18:32suppress our individual identity
18:34in order to take on the group identity
18:36which we see is more important it is
18:38more important
18:40to be loyal to the institution than it
18:43is to be authentic to oneself we grasp
18:46that i hope all of us grasp that
18:49when we talk to people about the church
18:51we word our answers
18:52in ways as to reflect as positively as
18:55possible
18:56on the church even when we recognize
18:58that we're withholding
19:00the full scope of the of the issue from
19:03the person we're talking to
19:04and we're often gauging that person's
19:06ignorance or naivete
19:08when we give the answer when this person
19:11asks the question
19:13did you guys give did you guys were you
19:16guys part of the funding
19:18behind prop 8 were you guys contributing
19:22funding to prop 8. elder holland says we
19:25didn't give one dollar not one cent
19:27now this is twofold one is that the
19:30church did give
19:32it gave absolutely no if ands or buts it
19:34gave what's called donations in kind
19:36which means
19:37it gave items it gave goods
19:41that and those goods have monetary value
19:44and and that contributes to the cause
19:47but they
19:47but they claim like we didn't give cash
19:49directly
19:51the trouble is when somebody asks a
19:52question what are they asking
19:54the person's asking like did the church
19:58directly have financial or
20:01donating involvement with prop a
20:04and i got to believe as human beings
20:06we're not ignorant like we get it
20:09and but yet we also like we want to
20:11frame things in a way that's faithful to
20:13the church
20:14and so we look for loopholes in the way
20:17that we answer questions if we're trying
20:18to be honest so it could be argued if
20:20the church only gave donations in kind
20:23then by the letter of the law elder
20:25holland is being honest
20:27but in the spirit of the law there's a
20:30deception here which is elder holland is
20:32trying to paint to this questioner
20:34we didn't give anything that's that's
20:37not the case
20:39the other issue is that to to say like
20:42all we want
20:43is the ability to to have
20:47those of us who hold this religious
20:49standing to have a vote
20:50that's not true the church had deep
20:53involvement in prop 8.
20:55it claimed that it was just members of
20:57the church
20:58working on their own the reality is that
21:00ryan mcknight and mormon leaks
21:03have exposed documents that show that
21:06the church
21:07had a behind-the-scenes organization
21:10led by lds apostles
21:14that were um leading the charge
21:18on this issue like like it was elder
21:20ballard
21:21and other general authorities who were
21:23behind the scenes
21:24at the top of this leadership pyramid
21:28of who and what was being done with prop
21:32a
21:33to say the church wasn't involved
21:36excuse my language but that was
21:39and the church didn't want anybody to
21:41know that it was involved
21:43but we now know that it was
21:46now when it comes to the funding the
21:48church
21:49the day before the deadline files the
21:52appropriate paperwork
21:54showing itself as a major donor
21:58for prop 8. on january 30th
22:02of 2009 the church of jesus christ of
22:05latter-day saints filed a major
22:07donor report with the california
22:10secretary of state
22:12listing 189
22:17000 in non-monetary
22:21expenditures on behalf of protect
22:24marriage.com
22:26the yes on prop 8. the mormon church
22:30admitted directly spending
22:33a huge sum of money as part of its
22:36monumental effort to end same-sex
22:38marriage in california
22:40the church waited until 5 pm on friday
22:42one business day ahead
22:44of the required filing date of february
22:462nd to turn in its first report deal
22:48detailing at least some of its
22:50involvement
22:51in the prop 8 campaign you see
22:54it's deceptive when you give
22:58almost 200 grand to a cause no matter
23:01what form
23:02that is given when somebody asks
23:06if you're directly and and by the way
23:08you
23:09also have a secretive behind the scenes
23:13unknown publicly a
23:16um leadership chain
23:19that goes all the way to the top of your
23:21church
23:23and then you claim publicly that one
23:25you're not directly involved at all
23:28in terms of the feet on the ground and
23:31two that you have not given one red cent
23:36to the cause you're being dishonest
23:39you're being deceptive so elder holland
23:42here is caught again
23:44not telling the truth but you know what
23:47maybe there's a loophole there too so
23:50let's get into the third example
23:53elder holland recently was in the
23:56deseret news for telling
23:58a story about a missionary this
24:00missionary got sent
24:03off on his mission and while he's on his
24:04mission he happens to just
24:07run into his brother and he doesn't
24:10know it's his brother but the spirit is
24:13leading him to this house
24:14and leading him and how he interacts and
24:18by the end of the story this brother
24:20comes back to the church
24:22and it's a it's a fascinating story a
24:24story which
24:26lots of people went out into their wards
24:28and into their community
24:30and shared it as a faith promoting story
24:33once it hit the deseret news people
24:36began
24:37to talk about this story when people who
24:39were
24:40more critical thinking and trust me when
24:43i say this
24:44when you read this story and again i'll
24:47leave
24:48the links up that you can go find the
24:50story if you want to
24:51if if you read this story it's absurd
24:55like there are so many implausible
24:59miraculous things happening
25:02that your meter begins to go
25:06and so behind the scenes i'm having
25:08conversations with radio free mormon
25:10and him and i are talking and we're like
25:13hey this story just came out
25:15this story is not true this story is
25:18absolutely
25:19a far-fetched tale and for these 10
25:22reasons
25:23like the chance of a story having all 10
25:26of these
25:27is ridiculous peter james and
25:30john would be shaking their head in
25:31disbelief this story
25:33is whack crazy cray-cray
25:36and so as we're talking we begin to
25:38notice that in the
25:40progressive and ex-mormon community
25:42other people begin to see the same thing
25:44like this story isn't making sense
25:46and i'm having conversations with ryan
25:48mcknight
25:49mcknight is and him and i are
25:51approaching each other and going
25:53this story doesn't make any this is not
25:55a true story
25:57so word begins to get out that people
25:59are having serious doubts over the story
26:01so what happens
26:02elder holland goes public through
26:06deseret news and church pr and says
26:09elder holland is pulling the story back
26:12a member of the family has come to him
26:14and informed him
26:15that he received a less than forthright
26:20telling of the story and elder holland
26:23out
26:24of his integrity bless his heart
26:27is pulling the story back now you can go
26:30back into radio free mormons episode he
26:33did on this
26:34episode 16 make way for dodos
26:39now remember elder holland went to a
26:41pretty good school he's read some good
26:43books
26:43he's no dodo when you go back and listen
26:46to elder
26:47radio free mormons episode and when you
26:50dig into the data and some of that data
26:52is still available in the resource notes
26:54i believe for that episode
26:55when you dig into the data what you
26:57learn is this elder holland
27:00and other general authorities
27:03had been privately at missionary
27:05meetings
27:07been telling this story for three
27:11years three years that's as far back as
27:14we can find it maybe it even goes
27:15further back
27:16but for three years these men were
27:19telling this story
27:21as a faith promoting story elder holland
27:24claims he
27:25knows this family directly but the story
27:28didn't
27:28start with him he picked it up from
27:31other general authorities not members of
27:33the twelve this was members of the
27:34seventy
27:35we can first show that members of the
27:37seventy told the story first
27:38and elder holland picked it up later as
27:40a faith promoting story
27:42elder holland claims that he talked to
27:45this family directly
27:46there are so many holes in his story
27:50and there are so many holes for his
27:51explanation of pulling it back
27:54that again my meter goes
27:58elder holland knowing the facts of this
28:01story
28:02i'd love to sit down with you and figure
28:05out who this family is and i'd love to
28:06talk to them
28:07i'd love to talk to this family that
28:09exists if if
28:11they could come forward and substantiate
28:13your story
28:14and you could explain how you told this
28:16story for three years
28:18and only when the story went public in
28:21the deseret news
28:22and critics and by critics i mean those
28:25who were critically thinking of your
28:27story
28:28said this is absurd this thing is not
28:31true
28:32do you say like oh wait a minute wait a
28:34minute i'm not going to say it myself
28:35but
28:36please deseret news church pr
28:39make this thing disappear again
28:43dishonest now for this next one
28:46see here's the thing those three yeah
28:49maybe right like
28:50like there are loopholes if we give
28:52elder holland
28:53the greatest benefit of the doubt we say
28:56like
28:57there's there's a little tiny bit of
28:59wiggle room
29:00on these next two there's not they're
29:02clear
29:03and blatant lies here's the audio
29:07as a mormon in the temple i've been told
29:12he would have sworn
29:16an oath to say that he would not pass on
29:18what happens in the temple
29:20lest he slit his throat is that true
29:23that's not true
29:24that's not true we do not have
29:28penalties in the temple you used to we
29:31used to
29:32therefore he swore an oath saying i will
29:35not tell anyone about the secrets here
29:39lest i slit my throat well the the
29:42the vow that was made was
29:45regarding the ordinance the ordinance of
29:48the temple
29:50it sounds masonic sir it sounds masonic
29:53well it's comparable it's similar to a
29:56masonic uh
29:57relationship the most potentially the
29:59most powerful man in the world
30:01has sworn an oath which he meant at the
30:03time whatever it is now
30:05that he must not tell anyone about what
30:08he's seen
30:09lest he's literacy that he would not
30:12tell anyone about his
30:13personal pledge to the lord i know
30:16as a believing orthodox latter-day saint
30:19that sound bite is going to make you
30:21deeply uncomfortable
30:22you're going to sense like we don't want
30:24to talk about the temple we've made
30:25promises not to
30:26but can you feel elder holland's
30:29trepidation
30:31can you feel his need rather than being
30:34authentic and honest his
30:36need to protect the institution that he
30:38has promised
30:40and tries to live up to and being loyal
30:42to he is
30:43asked point blank did mitt romney
30:47ever make a oath
30:51that involved penalties where
30:54one is demonstrating harm on themselves
30:59and in 1991 1992 when the temple
31:02ordinances change prior to that moment
31:05those are there elder holland knows it
31:07he went to the temple when those were
31:08there he
31:09there's no if ands or buts in elder
31:12holland's brain he
31:13absolutely understands that what was in
31:16the temple prior to the change
31:18and he knows absolutely that mitt romney
31:21took that oath
31:22but rather than be honest he lies
31:26point blank listen to him stutter and
31:28stammer i'll play it one more time
31:30listen to his discomfort listen to his
31:33trepidation
31:34listen to his shaky voice listen to him
31:38try to dismiss and deflect hoping that
31:40the interviewer
31:42is ignorant and naive to the answers
31:45he's given not being forthright
31:47here it is again as a mormon
31:50in the temple i've been told
31:53he would have sworn
31:57an oath to say that he would not pass on
32:00what happens in the temple
32:02lest he slit his throat is that true
32:05that's not true
32:06that's not true we do not have
32:09penalties in the temple you used to we
32:12used to
32:13therefore he swore an oath saying i will
32:16not tell anyone about the secrets here
32:20lest i slit my throat well the the
32:23the vow that was made was
32:26regarding the ordinance the ordinance of
32:30the temple
32:31it sounds masonic sir it sounds masonic
32:34well it's comparable it's similar to
32:37a masonic uh relationship the most
32:39potentially the most powerful man in the
32:41world
32:42has sworn an oath which he meant at the
32:44time whatever it is now
32:47that he must not tell anyone about what
32:50he's seen
32:51lest he slit that he would not tell
32:53anyone about his
32:54personal pledge to the lord so the
32:57question is
32:58is it okay to lie for the lord is it
33:00okay to be dishonest is it okay to
33:02to tell a lie in situations like this i
33:05get when you're protecting somebody's
33:07life
33:08but to protect an institution simply
33:10does not sit well with me
33:12and i ask you does it sit well with you
33:16so there's the fourth example but that's
33:18just the fourth one
33:19here comes example number five
33:22which i find so elder holland has been
33:25called out on these everywhere along the
33:27way
33:28and what elder holland does and i don't
33:29have these in in time order
33:32these are not these are not in order
33:33from the earliest they happen to the
33:35latest
33:36but you would think after being called
33:38out for dishonesty
33:40that you would go like oh my goodness
33:42the internet and media
33:44and and those who are upset with the
33:46church that are leaving in great numbers
33:48feeling betrayed
33:49they're just not gonna let me get away
33:50with this anymore and you would think
33:52like we would stop
33:54being dishonest even if just for the
33:56reason of not getting caught and looking
33:58silly
33:59but elder holland no no he stays at it
34:03here's the audio from the fifth and
34:05final example
34:07we're in the midst of of incredible
34:10growth
34:11staggering growth in the church it's the
34:14single biggest problem we have it's the
34:16best problem we could have
34:17but it's the biggest uh
34:20we we are reeling under the
34:23implications of the growth that we have
34:25in this church
34:27last thursday i've been out here this
34:29thursday i've been with
34:30elder and sister holland and been with
34:32elder and sister robbins this
34:33this week so we i missed the temple
34:35meeting this thursday
34:37but a week ago thursday we created 15
34:40steaks
34:42um and we're doing that mass amenos
34:44every
34:45every week more or less uh it might not
34:48be 15 but it's
34:50uh the week before it was 12 uh
34:53sometimes it's eight or whatever and
34:57it'll be a little uneven
34:58but but but the point is i mean we're
35:01we're talking double-digit stakes every
35:02week
35:03every week of our lives and uh
35:07so be it we're creating new missions we
35:09created some new ones that'll be in
35:11place this summer
35:13uh you're going to create some new
35:15stakes in the southwest
35:17you're doing it all right well you've
35:18already done it how we've been splitting
35:20stakes around here like crazy
35:22uh and uh and and we'll be doing that
35:26missionaries temples everything
35:28everything we're doing is bigger than
35:30it's ever been done
35:31in the history of the world i'm not just
35:33talking about since
35:34october i'm not just talking about since
35:361940
35:38since adam and eve walked out of the
35:39garden
35:42this is the last example elder holland
35:44claims that we are having double-digit
35:47state creation every week of our lives
35:49listen to it
35:51rewind the thing 45 seconds play it
35:53again
35:55listen to how much it's not like he just
35:57makes one slip of a word and maybe he
35:59meant month instead a week
36:01no he is saying it over and over he is
36:05imposing to the people he is talking to
36:09that in his thursday meetings in the
36:11temple the church leadership
36:13is approving week after week after week
36:17after week after week every week of our
36:20lives
36:21double digit stake creation
36:25the trouble is the church actually gives
36:27us the data
36:28every general conference the church
36:31announces
36:32the number of words and stakes that have
36:35been created
36:37what it does is it tells you the total
36:39number of stakes all you have to do is
36:41minus the number of stakes from the
36:42previous year and you now have the
36:45number of
36:46new stakes so
36:49if we went to that data which we have
36:52and we take this talk was given in 2015
36:54by the way if we take all of 2015
36:572016 2017
37:00and thus far in 2018
37:04we end up with 1.6 stakes created
37:09per week 1.6
37:14why isn't he honest why doesn't he tell
37:16the truth
37:18somebody said to me they're counting
37:20both the number
37:21before and after the decimal
37:25when you tell a crowd you have
37:27double-digit state creation you don't
37:29mean
37:301.6 you mean
37:3310 or more
37:36elder holland you have a pattern of
37:39dishonesty
37:41you have a pattern of deception you have
37:43a pattern of lying
37:46and now once i've dug into all the
37:48history and i realized the messiness
37:50and i realize what it would take
37:54to fill the one void this church has
37:56which is vulnerability and authenticity
37:59i realize that dishonesty comes in
38:01really handy
38:03so to you elder oaks it's wrong to
38:06criticize
38:08leaders of the church even if the
38:10criticism is true
38:12i am absolutely done
38:15playing your guys's game game over
38:19such things as not criticizing leaders
38:21of the church and not being able to call
38:23out unhealthiness
38:25feels like mind control to those who are
38:27listening
38:29take back your own authority and do not
38:32tolerate the deception and dishonesty
38:36that this church gives in order to
38:38shield itself
38:40from vulnerability authenticity
38:43which leads to acknowledging the
38:45messiness of this church
38:47and becoming something that is good
38:50rather than the unhealthy high demand
38:52religion
38:54that mormonism is

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