Egypt Forced Scientists to Delete the Labyrinth Study | Louis de Cordier — Transcript

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1. 0:00Can you walk me through that first
2. 0:03expedition you did in 2008?
3. 0:06>> So the I call it the the Mataha
4. 0:08expedition. It was a
5. 0:10cooperation between Ghent University and
6. 0:12the National Research Institute for
7. 0:14Astronomy and Geophysics in in Egypt.
8. 0:17And
9. 0:18basically it was a geophysical
10. 0:21survey.
11. 0:22So we didn't do digging. We didn't do I
12. 0:25would say physical exploration, but we
13. 0:28we brought the
14. 0:30seven or eight different
15. 0:32geophysical technologies like GPR and
16. 0:36electro-resistivity, gem-tem,
17. 0:38geomagnetics
18. 0:40on on two two big plots.
19. 0:43One was like 100 by 180 m and the other
20. 0:47one very similar. So at at the time,
21. 0:50according to the National Research
22. 0:51Institute, it was the bigger biggest
23. 0:53geophysical survey in Egypt ever been
24. 0:56done on an archaeological site. So
25. 0:59almost like 16 geophysicists were
26. 1:01involved.
27. 1:03Um
28. 1:03>> Woah, and you got like you went through
29. 1:05all of the hoops the politically to get
30. 1:08this approved by by Egypt's government,
31. 1:11right?
32. 1:12>> Yes. Yes.
33. 1:12>> And and the antiquities like Zahi Hawass
34. 1:15and all those guys, they were all cool
35. 1:16with it?
36. 1:17>> Wow.
37. 1:18>> But the thing is I was
38. 1:19>> the first one to do something like that?
39. 1:20>> Yes. Yes.
40. 1:22Yeah.
41. 1:23And
42. 1:24at Hawara and the the the last proper
43. 1:27research that was Flinders Petrie in
44. 1:301888.
45. 1:32And ever since the the whole site was
46. 1:34more or less like abandoned. There were
47. 1:36some how I say little missions, but very
48. 1:40shallow and not intended to to discover
49. 1:44or explore the the existence of the
50. 1:46labyrinth because Flinders Petrie over a
51. 1:48100 years ago settled it for for most of
52. 1:51the academia saying from he he
53. 1:54discovered this this layers at 5 m below
54. 1:57ground
55. 1:58an enormous foundation plate like 304 on
56. 2:01244 m which is like almost like 10
57. 2:04football fields big.
58. 2:06Um all over this
59. 2:07>> One plate.
60. 2:08>> one plate. It really matches as well
61. 2:11what the ancient authors were saying
62. 2:13over that the roof of the labyrinth was
63. 2:15a giant plane of stone.
64. 2:17And
65. 2:18>> Wow. How deep?
66. 2:20>> And that was 5 m.
67. 2:22>> 5 m.
68. 2:23>> 5 m deep. So see see these ancient
69. 2:26authors were were referring to to the
70. 2:28labyrinth as like two two buildings at
71. 2:31the two two
72. 2:32stories
73. 2:34each containing 1,500 rooms and the roof
74. 2:37being like completely flat like it I
75. 2:40thought maybe that's the roof of the la
76. 2:43the the labyrinth
77. 2:45or it might be the floor of this the
78. 2:48first
79. 2:49layer.
80. 2:50>> Mhm.
81. 2:50>> And at and at the top layers is gone.
82. 2:53Um and that was
83. 2:55confirmed by by by this research the the
84. 2:58Mataha expedition and they said from
85. 3:00underneath that giant stone foundation
86. 3:03that they found like hundreds and
87. 3:05hundreds of rooms and enormous big walls
88. 3:07and grid structures. So they they
89. 3:09confirmed the existence of of an uh
90. 3:12still
91. 3:13huge remains and ever since been like
92. 3:17trying to to
93. 3:19get back on with the boots on the ground
94. 3:21and
95. 3:23see what
96. 3:23>> So give me an idea as far as like the
97. 3:25volume of the entire labyrinth.
98. 3:28What what could you compare it to?
99. 3:31>> Oh it's it's
100. 3:33yeah like
101. 3:34it's it's enormous. It's like 304 on 244
102. 3:394 m which is yeah around like 10
103. 3:41football fields big. So I don't know
104. 3:43>> 10 football fields.
105. 3:45>> because it's like Herodotus describes
106. 3:47that if you
107. 3:48compile all the temples of ancient
108. 3:50Greeks where are
109. 3:52and it still doesn't match
110. 3:55the the the magnitude of of the
111. 3:56labyrinth.
112. 3:57And he even also refers to the the giant
113. 4:00pyramids of Egypt. He said even those
114. 4:01pyramids are massively big,
115. 4:04the labyrinth surpasses them in in
116. 4:06greatness.
117. 4:07>> What is the total height of it from like
118. 4:09the base to the to the roof?
119. 4:11>> According to the descriptions,
120. 4:14let's say that every meter is like every
121. 4:16level is like around eight like or 10
122. 4:19maybe 20 m.
123. 4:22>> Okay.
124. 4:23>> [clears throat]
125. 4:24>> But
126. 4:25but
127. 4:28Yeah, so that that's what we want to
128. 4:30find out. But the
129. 4:32the mother rock itself
130. 4:34which
131. 4:35is around minus 18 m.
132. 4:38>> [sighs]
133. 4:39>> Yeah. And um
134. 4:40>> The what rock?
135. 4:41>> The mother rock. So
136. 4:42if you start drilling with with core
137. 4:44core drills and then you see that at
138. 4:47around minus 18 m it's like solid rock.
139. 4:49From there there's no debris and
140. 4:52yes yes. And
141. 4:53>> Yeah, bedrock.
142. 4:54>> The bedrock. And then later in came came
143. 4:56the satellite scans.
144. 4:59Um it was like 2014 and another one in
145. 5:032015
146. 5:04and they completely skipped
147. 5:07the first 18 m.
148. 5:09And this and the first one conformed
149. 5:12like four layers underground at minus
150. 5:1630 and then 60 around 80 and then 100 m
151. 5:20deep. Uh enormous spaces and then the
152. 5:24second one
153. 5:25um the the British one also reconfirmed
154. 5:29it.
155. 5:30And they added even way more other
156. 5:32things to it. So
157. 5:35that was a pretty a surprise and a shock
158. 5:37for me. So ever since
159. 5:40yeah, we I'm I'm I'm trying to to yeah,
160. 5:45uncover it.
161. 5:46>> So after you guys did that first
162. 5:48expedition and you did all those scans
163. 5:52and you discovered all those giant rooms
164. 5:54in there and how big the scale of it,
165. 5:55the volume of it and then um
166. 5:58what did you do with the findings and
167. 6:00the data?
168. 6:02>> The the first the first research that
169. 6:04was just published they published it
170. 6:06>> Published what? Like a like on a on a
171. 6:09journal?
172. 6:10>> Yeah, like a scientific
173. 6:11yeah journal and it was published
174. 6:14online. Um and there was also like an
175. 6:17um
176. 6:18a workshop presented at the National
177. 6:20Research Institute in in in Egypt. And
178. 6:23up there the the 48
179. 6:25uh Supreme Council counselors were all
180. 6:27present and we presented the whole thing
181. 6:29and they were all
182. 6:31very impressed and and people from
183. 6:33UNESCO were also present and they said,
184. 6:35"Yeah, we need to move forward with
185. 6:37making it like a world heritage site."
186. 6:40So, to
187. 6:40>> What's UNESCO?
188. 6:41>> UNESCO it's it's it's the part the the
189. 6:44cultural
190. 6:45wing of the United Nations, the UN.
191. 6:48>> Okay.
192. 6:49>> Yeah.
193. 6:49Yeah. And um
194. 6:52it's a it's a pretty im- important um
195. 6:57in- international
196. 6:58organization.
197. 7:00And um
198. 7:02and
199. 7:03and then because we we had so much
200. 7:06interest in in Belgium itself with with
201. 7:08presence on that the Ghent University
202. 7:10said from, "Okay, let's organize
203. 7:13a whole conference and invite these
204. 7:15Egyptian top persons like Zahi Hawass
205. 7:19and and the the involved people of the
206. 7:21National Research Institute and people
207. 7:24from University Cairo." So,
208. 7:27Zahi Hawass declined to come but all the
209. 7:29others came and then we had this very
210. 7:31big conference in in Ghent with a
211. 7:34completely overcrowded aula um with 5
212. 7:38600 people and
213. 7:40they we presented we had also lot of
214. 7:41press present, like ABC, NBC, all all
215. 7:45the European press. And then it
216. 7:47exploded.
217. 7:49Um,
218. 7:51also in the newspapers, like it was
219. 7:52front page on all newspapers and so on.
220. 7:55Um, and then a couple of days later I
221. 7:57got this call from from Egypt, from the
222. 8:00National Research Institute to to to
223. 8:03completely pull it.
224. 8:05>> Pull it from the journal?
225. 8:06>> Yes, just pull it from from the website.
226. 8:08I was not able to to do any interviews
227. 8:11anymore and they were all completely
228. 8:14afraid actually because they were
229. 8:17threatened in in Egypt and they
230. 8:19>> what?
231. 8:19>> Threatened. Like like they they got like
232. 8:22threats. The National Research Institute
233. 8:24Yeah, so they they
234. 8:27they are part of the military complex
235. 8:29and so
236. 8:30so
237. 8:32it's was like considered
238. 8:36a national security breach.
239. 8:39Um, and then Zahi Hawass was furious and
240. 8:43one of his friends, Professor Gamrawy,
241. 8:46he he he called me and he said, "Yeah,
242. 8:49we have like a very serious situation
243. 8:51because you are put on the blacklist and
244. 8:53you are not able to enter Egypt anymore
245. 8:56and it's very serious situation because
246. 8:58it's like going out of um,
247. 9:01yeah.
248. 9:02Went completely completely south,
249. 9:05especially because the the Belgian king
250. 9:07he he came to Egypt in in a in a
251. 9:09diplomatic
252. 9:10mission and there he talked with the
253. 9:11wife of Mubarak, the the former
254. 9:14president, and the the wife of Mubarak
255. 9:16was a personal friend of Zahi Hawass and
256. 9:18then the king had this this
257. 9:20magazine where on the front page said
258. 9:22like Belgian discovery labyrinth of
259. 9:24Egypt and he showed it to to the wife of
260. 9:26Mubarak. She was like completely shocked
261. 9:28and then she called Zahi Hawass and and
262. 9:30then yeah, it went all ballistic. Um,
263. 9:34and
264. 9:34>> Oh my god.
265. 9:35>> Yeah. Yeah.
266. 9:37And that's not it's Yeah, it was wild
267. 9:41because as well at the University Ghent
268. 9:43everybody was in complete panic.
269. 9:45Um not to mention the people in in in
270. 9:48Egypt themselves.
271. 9:49And for me the street the the the really
272. 9:52>> didn't do anything wrong. Like you would
273. 9:54literally got permission to do this.
274. 9:56>> Yes.
275. 9:57>> did what any scientist would do.
276. 9:59>> Yes. We we followed the whole line of
277. 10:02doing like a proper workshop
278. 10:04presentation Supreme Council of
279. 10:06Antiquities. Every We we organized the
280. 10:08whole
281. 10:09conference in Ghent University where all
282. 10:11the scientists were involved and
283. 10:13invited. And then it hit the newspapers.
284. 10:18But where I I think it really went how
285. 10:20to say
286. 10:21um
287. 10:23really
288. 10:24became sensitive is that the labyrinth
289. 10:27suddenly was connected to lost
290. 10:28civilizations.
291. 10:30And and
292. 10:32giant halls of records and so
293. 10:35and and it that it left
294. 10:39the the sphere of normal archeology.
295. 10:43>> Now this was after Graham Hancock got
296. 10:45banned.
297. 10:47Or blackballed. Didn't Graham get banned
298. 10:48from Egypt too at one point?
299. 10:50>> was all the same all the same periods.
300. 10:52>> Was this around the same time?
301. 10:53>> Yeah. There was this
302. 10:55>> But was your was your situation before
303. 10:58or after Graham gotten got blackballed?
304. 11:00Do you know?
305. 11:02>> I remember that I was invited on the
306. 11:03tours
307. 11:05where Graham Hancock and Zahi Hawass
308. 11:07were going to you know they did it
309. 11:09together and then there was this whole
310. 11:10fight. Um so I don't know exactly when
311. 11:13Graham was
312. 11:15banned.
313. 11:15>> Right. I don't remember either.
314. 11:16>> But we are I'm I'm talking that this was
315. 11:18like 2008 so over 17 years ago.
316. 11:21>> Right. Before before Facebook,
317. 11:24Instagram.
318. 11:26I think YouTube was still alive but it
319. 11:28was like very primitive back then. This
320. 11:30was like MySpace days. Like way before
321. 11:32there was this insane
322. 11:35online presence of alternative
323. 11:37historians that are like
324. 11:39talking about this stuff all the time.
325. 11:40Like you were
326. 11:42They They were actively trying to
327. 11:44suppress it back then, which is so
328. 11:46interesting.
329. 11:48>> Graham Hancock was very
330. 11:50fringe. So now he's on Netflix and so
331. 11:52on, but at at the time, yeah, and I was
332. 11:54still in contact even with like people
333. 11:56like
334. 11:57John Anthony West and and and trying to
335. 12:00communicate my my ideas to him and he
336. 12:02was very interested. Um
337. 12:05Graham Hancock, Robert Schoch. So I've
338. 12:07been with these person contact for
339. 12:09almost like 20 years now.
340. 12:11>> Mhm.
341. 12:11>> Yeah.
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