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"Edward Snowden Is A Patriot: Ex-NSA CIA, FBI and Justice Whistleblowers Meet Leaker in Moscow 2/3 — Transcript

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0:00we're joined by the four former
0:02intelligence officials who went to
0:04Russia last week and we believe they're
0:06the first Americans to meet with Edward
0:08Snowden who've come from the United
0:10States and they came to give him an
0:12award for integrity in intelligence um
0:16our guests are um Ray McGovern a former
0:20CIA analyst um Thomas Drake who worked
0:23for the NSA uh Colleen rally former FBI
0:28agent and JN Rak who we're going to turn
0:30to right now jusn rck is National
0:33Security and human rights director at
0:34the government accountability project
0:36she was an attorney in the Justice
0:38Department's professional responsibility
0:40advisory office during the Bush
0:42Administration during the John Walker
0:45Lind case you may remember he was found
0:47in Afghanistan and she raised legal and
0:50ethical objections over the questioning
0:53of Lind without his lawyer and revealed
0:56misconduct by the Department of Justice
0:59uh she was eventually forced out so Jess
1:02rck talk about the actual Journey the
1:04four of you took you left from where in
1:07the United States and how did you make
1:09your way to Moscow and then to see
1:11Edward
1:13Snowden uh all well three of us um Ry
1:17and Tom and I live in the DC
1:19metropolitan area so we left from dullas
1:24um and took a connecting flight um to
1:28Moscow and
1:30this was all carefully arranged as it
1:32has to be um it always seems funny to me
1:35that people keep asking where he is and
1:39who's protecting him rather than
1:42focusing on the underlying reasons of
1:45why it would be necessary to be in
1:48hiding from your own country but all
1:52four of us were greatly honored to be
1:54able to be the first Americans to see
1:56him since Hong Kong and to get over
1:59there and and be greeted with open arms
2:02by the Russian government Anatoli
2:05kucherena in particular um and actually
2:08be able to see Ed and Sarah Harrison and
2:12just give them a hug and and let them
2:16know that we had complete solidarity
2:18with what they were doing um and I know
2:21it probably feels very isolating for
2:24them given all the vital you hear coming
2:28from the US government
2:31where you were in
2:33Moscow you know I I don't know the
2:37answer to that I could you know I
2:39couldn't tell you even if I did um the
2:42security is a huge issue obviously
2:45especially as we have
2:50um you know there's a lot of issues with
2:54security especially considering the
2:56director of the former director of NSA
2:59and CIA Michael Hayden and the the house
3:02intelligence committee chair Mike Rogers
3:06joke about putting him on the kill list
3:09um and there's been a worldwide Manhunt
3:12um for Mr Snowden that's no secret so I
3:14think uh people should really look at
3:16the question behind why there would he
3:20would be in any kind of hiding or in an
3:23undisclosed location and why someone who
3:26tells the truth and Blows the Whistle
3:28and massive ille ity by the US
3:30government why they would have to go to
3:33another country to do so and then seek
3:36Asylum from yet another country in order
3:39to gain protection uh Justin Rak what
3:42did Edward Snowden tell you and what did
3:45you tell him as you presented the
3:48award as we presented the award we each
3:51read from various other famous people in
3:55history including Martin Luther King who
3:59people who were also smeared as being
4:02traitors and turncoats and hurting the
4:06country and later history realized they
4:10were Heroes um other people like Ben
4:13Franklin um we talked about that with
4:16him and how he was supported that
4:19despite what the US government is saying
4:22about 60% of our country um is in
4:25support of NSA reform and I think just
4:30all that he's dealing with he is
4:32incredibly focused on whistleblower
4:36protection on surveillance reform and on
4:40journalist Source
4:43confidentiality so even though he has
4:45all of these other things going on um
4:48for him he is incredibly focused on
4:51surveillance reform and that it be
4:53meaningful and while there are a number
4:56of bills before Congress right now most
4:58of them f focus on the Patriot Act
5:00section 255 and very little on fisa
5:04Section 702 so he was very well versed
5:08very centered very balanced and very
5:11engaging and has a wicked sense of humor
5:15um which which is very very fun um so I
5:19think it you know we both felt mutually
5:23um supported and he knows that he's not
5:26alone and that he has a lot of people in
5:28the United States and around the world
5:31who are supporting his Endeavors you
5:33mentioned Benjamin Franklin and I wanted
5:35to turn to Colleen Rowley uh former FBI
5:39agent Minneapolis was awarded time uh
5:41person of the year um for her work
5:45around 911 she was a division legal
5:47counsel for 13 years and taught
5:49constitutional rights to FBI and police
5:52also testified before Congress about the
5:54FBI's failure to help prevent the 9911
5:56attacks Colleen what does Ben Franklin
5:59have to do with Edward
6:02Snowden well most people would not have
6:04any way of knowing that significantly
6:07the one of the founding fathers of our
6:09country was vilified exactly the same
6:13and for the same reason as Edward
6:15Snowden in 19 in 1773 or 74 Ben Franklin
6:21was Postmaster General and it came to
6:23his attention that there were
6:24Communications between the British uh
6:27and the uh colonist over overseers that
6:31that American colonists did would not be
6:34accorded the same uh civil rights as
6:38British citizens and uh because they
6:41thought they had to keep the American
6:43colonists you know at Bay or whatever so
6:45they were not according American uh
6:48colonists the same rights and Ben
6:50Franklin to his credit became a
6:52whistleblower in
6:541773 only to be vilified and called
6:57every name in the book uh by the British
6:59and by the um American uh Governor at
7:02the time he was actually stripped of his
7:04Postmaster General status so we can see
7:07how history and time changes everything
7:10and in in the case of Ben Franklin it
7:12changed rather quickly to go to Edward
7:15Snowden in his own words and his
7:16interview with Glenn Greenwald and Laura
7:19pois from June in Hong Kong when he
7:22first uh revealed who he was Snowden
7:26explained why he made the decision to
7:28become a whistle slower when you're in
7:31positions of of privileged access like a
7:34a systems administrator for these sort
7:36of intelligence Community agencies
7:38you're exposed to a lot more information
7:40on a broader scale than the average
7:43employee and because of that you see
7:45things that uh may be disturbing but uh
7:49over the course of a normal person's
7:50career you'd only see one or two of
7:52these instances uh when you see
7:54everything you see them on a more
7:56frequent basis and you recognize that
7:58some of these things things are actually
8:00abuses and when you talk to people about
8:02them uh in a place like this where this
8:05is the the normal state of business
8:08people tend not to take them very
8:10seriously and you know move on from them
8:12but over time that awareness of wrong
8:15doing sort of builds up and you feel
8:17compelled to talk about it and the more
8:19you talk about it the more you're
8:20ignored the more you're told it's not a
8:22problem until eventually you realize
8:24that uh these things need to be
8:26determined by the public not by somebody
8:28who is simply ired by the government
8:30that was Edward Snowden when he first
8:32came to Hong Kong interviewed by
8:34journalists Laura pois and Glenn
8:37Greenwald I want to turn back to uh
8:40Thomas Drake uh who you yourself worked
8:42for the National Security Agency for
8:44many years um can you talk about which
8:50of snowden's disclosures of the many
8:53documents he leaked which of his
8:56disclosures about the NSA were most
9:01important well the first one is no doubt
9:03that was the -80 order compelling uh
9:06forizon through you know a secret uh
9:09fisa court order uh submitted by the FBI
9:12uh to turn over every phone record that
9:15it has each and every day to NSA that's
9:17the first one on a we're talking about a
9:19truly vast scale um you know well over
9:22100 million phone numbers uh without
9:25suspicion without any any uh probable
9:28cause not hide any kind of Investigation
9:30of any of any sort just simply being
9:33turned over to add to add to the Hy
9:35stack uh the second one uh that comes to
9:38mind would be the the prism disclosures
9:41uh this goes beyond uh just the metadata
9:43which in itself is is quite
9:45extraordinary but gets to to the heart
9:47of content of subscribers of of us-based
9:51um internet service providers hosting uh
9:54you know servers on which millions and
9:56millions of subscribers were determined
9:58uh terms of the definition of their
10:01foreignness giving uh NSA extraordinary
10:04unprecedented access uh to those
10:07accounts on a routine basis through V
10:09various technical means uh either direct
10:12access or being afforded access by by
10:15these uh same same uh providers and I
10:18think the the third mechanism uh
10:20actually is beyond just the vi the vast
10:23violations of the sovereignty of US
10:25citizens but also now the surveillance
10:28State going well beyond the borders and
10:30the boundaries of the United States and
10:32violating the sovereignty and integrity
10:35of Nations as well as individual
10:36citizens and and other countries through
10:39various Arrangements through
10:40telecommunication providers as well as
10:42the internal uh secret Services of
10:44respective host Nations um I mean this
10:47is this is truly unprecedented in
10:49history and what we're seeing is you
10:51know secrecy and surveillance are
10:53completely subverting uh security and
10:56Liberty not just the United States uh
10:58but for many many citizens around the
11:00world those are the three that that
11:01stand out for me although there are any
11:03number of other disclosures that were
11:05made uh that also talk speak to you know
11:08economic Espionage you know Financial
11:11Espionage uh as well as other forms of
11:14misuse and abuse of access for the
11:16purposes of of the United States gaining
11:18upper hand um across any any number of
11:22of
11:22areas um Ry McGovern um you said over
11:26the weekend as you visited withed
11:29Snowden that uh that he had no uh top
11:35secret information um as you were
11:38questioned about whether uh the
11:40information that Edward Snowden brought
11:42with him from the United States was
11:43turned over to Russian authorities where
11:45he is now or Chinese authorities when he
11:47was in Hong
11:49Kong well Amy it it had to do with this
11:52red Haring about the four laptops that
11:54they took with them to Hong Kong you
11:57don't store a lot of information on
11:58laptop tops uh you store information on
12:01other media so in a way when I was asked
12:03that question by Mark hosenball from
12:06writers what about the laptops I
12:08probably should have said what about the
12:10laptops instead I said you don't store
12:13information on the laptops uh laptops
12:15were in a in a sense of diversion what
12:18he gave to Glenn Greenwall and laa
12:20portess in um in Hong Kong was a
12:24different matter altogether the laptops
12:26were incidental to that so that was the
12:29only point that that I made on that and
12:31uh it seemed to be a sort of ancillary
12:34point that didn't make much significance
12:36I noticed this in the New York daily
12:37news today yeah the secretive foreign
12:40intelligence surveillance court has
12:42approved a request by the National
12:44Security Agency to extend its draget
12:47collection of Us phone records the
12:49office of Director of National
12:51Intelligence James Clapper disclosed the
12:53Court's approval on Friday Clapper has
12:56previously denied before Congress that
12:58the n NSA collects such data but the
13:00Obama administration's touted a policy
13:02of declassifying Select information
13:04following leaks by NSA whistleblower at
13:07Snowden I want to turn to that now
13:09famous clip of Clapper in March telling
13:11Democratic senator Ron weiden of Oregon
13:13the National Security Agency does not
13:15wittingly collect data on millions of
13:18Americans does the NSA collect any type
13:22of data at all on millions or hundreds
13:25of millions of
13:27Americans no
13:29sir it does
13:32not not
13:34wittingly there are cases where they
13:36could in inadvertently perhaps uh
13:39collect but not not wittingly that's
13:42James Clapper he's now admitted that
13:45statement was false and apologized to
13:47Congress in June Clapper sent a letter
13:49to the Senate intelligence committee
13:51saying he misunderstood the question
13:54quote I have thought long and hard to
13:56recreate what went through my mind at
13:58the time time he said Clapper wrote my
14:00response was clearly erroneous for which
14:03I apologize I want to go back to colen
14:06Rowley um former FBI um a special agent
14:10from 1981 to 2004 again named Person of
14:14the Year by Time Magazine after the 911
14:17attacks um colen uh you recently were at
14:23Congress to hear more testimony for
14:26officials this moment where Clapper
14:29didn't tell the truth and now said he's
14:30trying to figure out what was going
14:32through his mind to lie to Congress um
14:34are these officials sworn in when they
14:38testify well I I don't know if he was
14:40sworn in that other time but the October
14:432nd hearing which was to discuss a
14:46possible reform of the foreign
14:48intelligence surveillance act neither um
14:51Alexander uh General Alexander nor
14:54Clapper were uh sworn in and this was in
14:58contrast to the law professors who
15:00merely gave their opinion on the law
15:03afterwards who were forced to raise
15:04their right hand and swear to tell the
15:06truth so I you know when when U Edward
15:09Snowden uh says it's uh not oversight
15:13it's undersight I I have been saying
15:16it's not oversight it's Overlook because
15:19in essence uh the directors who are fact
15:22witnesses to what has occurred and have
15:25dissembled to the American public and
15:27not told the truth in even to Congress
15:30uh Senator weiden was was absolutely
15:33stunned to know that there were secret
15:35interpretations of fisa Law and and yet
15:38have uh James Clapper tell the American
15:41public the
15:43opposite uh the New York Post published
15:46an article called Rogues go to Russia to
15:49celebrate Snowden in it journalist ESS
15:52Miller wrote quote a fan club of us
15:54Traders went all the way to Russia to
15:57give an award to their hero Terror watch
15:59secret Spiller Edward Snowden JN Rak you
16:03worked in the Justice Department uh you
16:07um were an attorney um uh there in the
16:10Justice Department's uh professional
16:12responsibility advisory office um can
16:16you respond Rogues to Russia they're
16:18they're talking about
16:20you yes I understand that despite the
16:24fact that I'm a legal ethicist and have
16:27served on the DC bar legal Ethics
16:29Committee um Tom Drake was completely
16:34Vindicated um there's nothing traitorous
16:37about him he went through all internal
16:40channels that he could have gone through
16:42as an NSA whistleblower to his boss to
16:46the
16:47NSA um general counsel to the Department
16:50of Defense Inspector General and to two
16:53911 congressional committees and they
16:57turned around and prosecuted him for
17:01Espionage which is one of the most
17:03serious charges You Can level against an
17:05American now um if the new New York Post
17:09bothered to do its homework it would
17:10have realized that all 10 felony charges
17:14against Thomas Drake were dropped and
17:17the case collapsed in spectacular
17:19fashion it would realize that colan
17:22rally was never under any kind of
17:25criminal cloud and instead Time Magazine
17:29made her person of the year in 2003 the
17:32year of the Whistleblower and in my own
17:35case I been Vindicated um by the DC bar
17:41and by uh the US attorney's office in DC
17:45so I suggest that the New York Post quit
17:48trying to do the government's work of
17:51turning Patriots into traitors um and
17:56confusing fear with freedom and
18:01confusing dissent with
18:04disloyalty um I am glad to be in the
18:07company of people who went over to see
18:10Ed and Ed is part of that same group and
18:15while history will remember Ed favorably
18:19I am quite sure it is not going to
18:21remember New York Post headlines to the
18:25effect of the one you read um let me put
18:27that question R McGovern about uh
18:30calling you Rogues or trador supporting
18:33a traiter you were a top CIA briefer for
18:37President George HW Bush you work for
18:40the Central Intelligence Agency um what
18:43is your response to um what is loyal
18:47what is being patriotic and what is
18:50breaking the
18:51law well sticks and stones may hurt my
18:54bones and so forth uh you know it's
18:58almost most laughable if it weren't so
19:00serious I mean take NBC for example
19:04their top foreign correspondent was in
19:06Russia just a few days before we were
19:09interviewing Anna Chapman the fiery
19:12redhead who's going to start our own TV
19:15program and they wanted to ask her about
19:17her wedding proposal to Edward Snowden
19:21give me a break that's all over
19:23NBC no one asked any of us to be on the
19:27Sunday TV shows yesterday uh maybe
19:30that's asking too much but the
19:32mainstream media here is laughable in
19:35terms of the way they treat this they're
19:37very much part of the government
19:38apparatus and they follow the government
19:40line so if they're going to call me a
19:42rogue well I've been called worse things
19:45then come back to uh some interesting
19:47news uh that uh the guardian was
19:50reporting um on the editor of the New
19:53York Times Jill Abramson about what
19:56British officials wanted from her where
19:58were talking with the four former
20:00intelligence officials in the United
20:02States who went to Russia to bestow upon
20:04Edward no Snowden in uh intellig an
20:08Integrity intelligence award Colleen
20:10Rowley of the FBI jesselyn Rak of the
20:13state department um uh of the justice
20:16department rather Ray McGovern of the
20:18CIA and Thomas Drake of the NSA stay
20:20with
20:27us
20:33o

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