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Ed Kemper Interview - 1991 (extended) — Transcript

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0:20wee foreign
0:58junor the
1:00who stft
1:03[Music]
1:16[Music]
1:32[Music]
1:54here
2:14hi
2:18I I guess I didn't even ask him that he
2:21just proper the information that he
2:23wouldn't hesitate a second to pull the
2:26pull the lever on any serial killer
2:29right and I'm thinking and gee he just
2:30killed me you know if you stop and think
2:34about it if I were to
2:36uh if I were to have been uh executed in
2:40a timely fashion they would have had
2:43absolutely no
2:44input and it'd be scratching their heads
2:47about what makes a Serial murder a
2:50tick other than the experts all jumping
2:53up to give their opinions which you've
2:54been doing for a lot of years and
2:56unfortunately they don't hit too well
2:58they don't have too good of a track
3:01record I'm not sure whose name we need
3:03to put one specific name down here who
3:06should be uh you feel
3:08me would include serial killer obviously
3:11yeah but obviously very few of them
3:13could if there was only 35 serial
3:16killers no now they're talking about
3:18close to
3:20100 uh right now I was saying that 10
3:23years
3:23ago that's uh that wasn't done but you
3:26also have you also have to include no no
3:29I'm saying and his cohorts they were
3:31saying as a unit MH the BSU was saying
3:34and uh having come from that
3:37genre in the uh having been locked up
3:40and through the drgs and knowing some of
3:44those characters and watching how easy
3:46it was for me to stumble into what I
3:48did uh I didn't go into it pre-planned
3:52or anything but uh I couldn't believe
3:54that that was a unique act you know that
3:58no one else could find that out and
3:59that's just one Avenue into it because
4:01you know while a lot of people can
4:05stereotype the type of uh criminal that
4:08a serial killer would
4:10be Society has to loosen up its belt a
4:12bit and admit that
4:15jailers like at the uh Tucker Farm down
4:18in Arkansas who get tired of
4:20recalcitrant Troublemaker inmates take
4:22them out back and kill them and bury
4:23them are serial
4:25killers different
4:27motive but uh so you know it's a wide
4:31range of activities that get included in
4:33something like that they've had that a
4:35100 years ago in the old west where
4:37someone would set up a boarding house
4:39and people who came by never left you
4:40know whole families individual
4:43Travelers would go on for years before
4:45they get
4:46discovered but uh it's things I've read
4:49about yeah and you had HHS also in the
4:5318 90s stuff yeah poisoners people like
4:58that
5:01um are we starting our interview or
5:05no would say oh yes I'm doing my time
5:08and I'm miserable and they say good you
5:10know that's not what it's
5:15about uhoh we're getting serious now I
5:19can tell the tape is
5:21rolling could you tell us how long
5:23you've been in
5:25prisoned excuse me uh this month is 18
5:30years that I've actually been in prison
5:33what were you convicted
5:35of8 counts of first-degree
5:38murder and what was your
5:41sentence 7 years to life um CC that's
5:47called concurrent it means all the
5:49sentences run at the same time that
5:52means they run consecutively oh no
5:54that's the opposite of consecutive
5:56consecutive would be one at a time and
5:57of course you can't serve multiple life
5:59sentences but uh there was some question
6:02before my case that uh whe on the
6:04legality of that so when my case went
6:06through uh the judge sentenced me to one
6:10term of seven to life which at that time
6:13was the uh was the maximum non death
6:16penalty and uh all to run concurrent at
6:19the same
6:21time and considering your crimes uh and
6:26crimes done by other serial killers what
6:28do you think uh Society should do in
6:31generally with serial killers do with
6:35them
6:38yes
6:40uh it's a difficult question to answer
6:43from my point of view because I'm
6:45obviously an involved subject so it
6:48would any answer I would give that would
6:50be other than the death penalty would
6:53sound very uh
6:57self-serving I look at people
7:00who on the surface don't have any
7:02redeeming qualities whatsoever they
7:04don't do anything or say anything or
7:06behave in any way that would make your
7:09average person want to save their life
7:12want to keep them alive and feed them
7:14and house them and clothed them for
7:18decades but when I first came to prison
7:21I had much the same attitude um it was a
7:25very defensive attitude very
7:27self-preservative attitude
7:29because those those immediately about me
7:31were very much set on destructive
7:34attitudes toward me so I put up scream
7:38so to speak to screen out those
7:41feelings um excuse me and those
7:44reactions to
7:46me I'm driving your sound lady crazy
7:56here also when you feel you need to read
7:59do an answer you can do it you know it's
8:01problem I don't have any problem with
8:03that now I understand yeah the problems
8:05involved I had to do a whole interview
8:08over once because the lady wouldn't
8:09check her audio tape recorder I kept
8:12saying you better check it and make sure
8:13it works first oh I'm sure it works it
8:16works two hours later we're doing it all
8:18over
8:19again she was ready to cry I'm telling
8:26you I guess I could have but
8:30that was the where I though the pen was
8:32mightier than the sword
8:34right the only interview I did back back
8:37at the time of my case this is just a
8:39little anecdote for you here but uh I
8:42went through the whole investigation the
8:43whole trial no interviews with the media
8:45right and then this one woman who had
8:48treated me pretty fairly in the media
8:49she was in this uh drove or driven
8:52toward uh beating me with the
8:54newspapers um she tried to do a more
8:57in-depth piece around it and so I did an
8:59interview with her before I went to
9:00prison it was the day I was sentenced
9:02and I was waiting for the bus or the the
9:04car to prison here and uh actually wait
9:08a minute excuse
9:12me that was the that was where I gave
9:14her the interview okay I talked to her
9:16just briefly she came she was hovering
9:18around I was at the the the Jury Room
9:20the courthouse talking to my lawyer he
9:23hadn't shown up yet she was up there
9:24talking to the officer that was with me
9:27and we all just had a I said my officer
9:29or my lawyer does not want me talking to
9:31the media at all so quick I see him com
9:33way down the hall I said let's set up a
9:35little scenario and act like I'm giving
9:36this really incriminating interview that
9:38screws everything up right and she kind
9:41of laughed because it was breaking the
9:43the attenion in in the room you know so
9:45we set up this little scenario and she's
9:47busily acting like she's writing and I'm
9:49talking about all of this hairbrain
9:51stuff that relates to the case and
9:53feelings and he just he just starts
9:55turning bright red as he gets within
9:56hearing range he like a big clown got
9:58this huge forehead had hair standing out
10:00all over and now he turns bright red and
10:03he says mattered in a wet hand and he
10:04Stomps into the room and slams his
10:06briefcase on the desk and and uh we all
10:09start laughing and he gets really mad I
10:11said what are you laughing about I said
10:13this is a setup just for you I'm not
10:14doing any interview but later on I gave
10:17her an interview because uh she treated
10:20me so fairly up to that point and U and
10:22also
10:23had uh she gave me a pen that day it was
10:26a cast aluminum uh ballpoint pen in and
10:30I took it back to my high security jail
10:32cell up in Redwood City I was really
10:34slammed down tight I'm in a two-man cell
10:36by myself they have a camera on me 24
10:38hours a day a monitor videotape monitor
10:41lights are on it's uh two sets of these
10:44four-footers here and it's as bright as
10:47day all day long all night long you know
10:4924 hours a day and I was there for 5
10:54months and uh I brought this pen back in
10:57I smuggled it in with me and I get strip
10:59shook leaving the cell I get strip shook
11:02coming back in and I brought this pen in
11:04and it got in with my legal
11:06papers and a few months later in the
11:09middle of the trial I smashed the pen on
11:11the floor with my boot sharpened it got
11:14a sharp edge on the on the metal and
11:16slashed my wrist and was bleeding all
11:18over the place and
11:21uh it was very messy and very exciting
11:24and everybody was dragging me off to the
11:26hospital get sewed up and all of that
11:28and I got ma shot up with industrial
11:31strength bottle of Mace they have about
11:33a quart of it and they just gassed me
11:34with that whole thing and uh dragged me
11:37off to the hospital and I made a quippy
11:40comment I don't think the police
11:42translated it properly for the media
11:43because they missed it they love you
11:45know how they love to get into puns on
11:47on broadcast television they love these
11:49little verbal puns and plays with words
11:51and the pen is mightier than the sword I
11:53turned the pen into a sword and and cut
11:55myself both times I attempted suicide I
11:58did it with a pen or parts of a pen and
12:01I thought that was kind of uh
12:02interesting but uh the media never
12:04picked up on that they were too busy
12:07being
12:08serious at any rate um at what point
12:11once in my life I could see every aspect
12:13of my life my
12:16crimes um who I was how I really felt
12:19about things without any defensive or
12:23protective accouterments was all
12:25gone and uh it was fascinating to me I
12:28was uh semiconscious
12:31uh actually I was conscious I just you
12:33know couldn't get up and move around a
12:35lot and uh at the end of the two hours I
12:38didn't want to stop I wanted to keep on
12:40with this I hadn't gotten to the crimes
12:42themselves the current set of crimes but
12:44uh I was kind of oriented around other
12:47things related to my life and I asked to
12:49continue on the doctor didn't want to so
12:51I insisted so they were using an IV and
12:54they shot me up with another 2hour batch
12:57of this stuff and and uh as soon as he
13:01was done with what he wanted to do uh he
13:04got up and left he had an appointment it
13:06had gone longer than he planned on it he
13:07had to leave my lawyer had to go so I'm
13:10stuck with these two deputies and and a
13:12u a registered nurse watching me until I
13:16come down off of this stuff well when
13:18the doctor left he decided to give me a
13:20shot of medicine to snap me out of this
13:23is the way he put it and I asked him
13:25what it was and he said it was
13:27methine Hospital grade method speed and
13:31I've asked doctors since then both
13:33medical doctors and psychiatrists if
13:35that was an appropriate action and they
13:37said absolutely not they should have let
13:39me sleep it off just let it course
13:41through my body and let it go away by
13:44amplifying with the
13:46methoden it is suggested that the doctor
13:48knew full well it would put me through
13:50hell it Amplified everything I was
13:52feeling it got me really drove and for
13:54two days after that they were trying to
13:56scrape me off the ceiling they couldn't
13:58even talk to me I was raving I was
13:59ranting I was they had to put me in a
14:01strip cell I wouldn't go back to my
14:04regular cell I refused because there was
14:06television available there I had a
14:08canteen I had some food items in my
14:10house I wouldn't accept it and I went to
14:14a strip cell two cells down where all I
14:16had was a mattress over a hole in the
14:18floor and uh I was just on and on 24
14:22hours a day the uh convicts and the
14:25criminals in the back that were locked
14:27up with me they were in the tank I mean
14:28we were talking very casually about
14:31different things had Fairly good
14:33relationships and I put them all on what
14:35we call Front Street I exposed all of
14:37them to all of the negative sides of our
14:40relationships and called them all kinds
14:42of uh cowards and punks and this and
14:44that and the other because they were
14:46even talking to me and that was when I
14:48made the statement that I should be hung
14:50upside down on the bars and beaten daily
14:52right for what I did because under the
14:55influence of those drugs I was seeing
14:57what I did through other people's eyes
14:59not through mine I won't say through
15:01other specific person's eyes but as
15:02someone else would view it pure horror
15:05someone that had nothing to do with
15:06violence in their life um would see it I
15:10was completely unprotected and it was an
15:13awful
15:14experience and within U hours of coming
15:16down off of that stuff uh two days
15:19later
15:21um you know I wasn't making comments
15:24like that the defenses were back in
15:25place they were a bit ruffled uh it had
15:28been an um an eye openening experience
15:31cuz it gave me something I'll never
15:33forget you know some perspectives on my
15:35case that I'll never forget some
15:36anxieties on my case I'll never forget
15:39and all I can give you to gauge it by is
15:41that when I went into that hospital the
15:43nurse came out and she was the typical
15:45battle axe professional nurse been on
15:47the job 20 years great woman with the
15:51wheelchair severe Stern face and she's
15:53looking at me with razor blades she
15:55could just dice me up in a second
15:57without thinking about it she's really
15:59have
16:00fits you know I'm in the chair she
16:02Wheels me inside 5 hours later when I
16:05come out of there you know she's
16:07Wheeling me out and as I'm getting into
16:09the car I got this tortured look on my
16:10face I've been crying I've been tearing
16:12at myself and she looks at me with this
16:14very compassionate look and she says
16:16good luck cuz she got a good look at
16:18what was really inside that she couldn't
16:21she she was already aware of the evil I
16:23was capable of and the and the horror
16:25that had happened in the case and now
16:27she saw a lot of my real feelings
16:28feelings and her knowledge of chemicals
16:31and medicine and treatments and all of
16:33that she knew I wasn't
16:34faking and from her I got a good luck
16:37you know and she was serious never seen
16:39her since but then the the ironically
16:42the deputies that were stuck with me
16:44that day trying to wait out this this
16:46fit I was having this
16:48rage um because they hadn't anticipated
16:50that but they just tried to figure well
16:52we we he's so outraged right now he's so
16:55drove uh let's just keep him here until
16:57he calms down a bit then we'll take him
16:59back to jail but I didn't calm down it
17:01just kept going on and on and on and on
17:04and uh at one point I asked the deputies
17:06to handcuff me to the rails of the bed
17:08because I was afraid I would rip my eyes
17:09out I was really acting
17:11up and uh he was he had known me well
17:14enough for a few months he didn't want
17:15to do that he says oh come on Ed that's
17:17call him by my first name he says that's
17:20not really necessary is it and I said
17:21man you better put him on I'm going to
17:23tear that goddamn gun belt off of you
17:24and blast you I might beat you to death
17:26with it so he comes over with a cuff a
17:29little offended by that so he comes over
17:30the Cuffs he starts to put him on my
17:32wrist and I just went through some kind
17:33of incredible convulsion I just yanked
17:35him clear across the bed you know cuz I
17:38was in and out and yanking like this and
17:40he had the other hand cuffed already
17:41he's putting cuff on here and I just and
17:43I yanked him across the bed Zing off he
17:45goes he's hanging onto this handcuff and
17:48at that point he cuffed me up real quick
17:49finished I already had leg irons down at
17:51the foot of the bed and I just was
17:53yanking those rails up and down with my
17:55wrists and that's very painful with
17:57handcuffs on you know these stainless
17:59steel rails I just up and down and up
18:01and down yanking them and trying to pull
18:02them in and we went like that for a few
18:05hours and finally they said we got to
18:07get him back to jail he's not going to
18:08change in the near future in general
18:11people see serial killers as one
18:13category but they're actually seven
18:16different types of serial killers would
18:18you care several or seven no several
18:20several types would you care to explain
18:22us what types of different serial
18:25killers I to be honest with you I
18:27couldn't really tell you uh
18:30um because the categorization process as
18:33you know is Back East uh with the
18:36behavioral sciences
18:38unit
18:40uh when I was locked up originally they
18:43called it mass murderer anybody who
18:46killed more than two or three people was
18:48a mass murderer and whether it was all
18:51at one place or over an extended period
18:53of time and then uh in the early 80s
18:56they came up with this differentiation
18:57called serial killing which was living
19:00two lives basically um if one orients to
19:04the negative side of that living he
19:07would say um this person was living a
19:10cover life that was wrapped around doing
19:14those crimes and which couldn't be very
19:16realistic someone doesn't live their
19:18life to murder people their life was not
19:20set for that from
19:22birth um from my point of view what I
19:25saw was there was a great hole in my
19:27life there was a lot Miss missing from
19:30my life and it didn't necessarily mean
19:32feelings it meant I had walled off this
19:35this emptiness of my life okay I had
19:38uh an upbringing that was uh some of
19:41called um
19:43dysfunctional okay parents divorced when
19:45I was young my mother started drinking
19:48heavily uh she was working to raise
19:50three kids we were not being cooperative
19:52about
19:53it
19:55um she drank more she punished us harder
19:58uh probably out of
20:00desperation uh so character sets were
20:04being developed at that point rather
20:06than me going to Boy Scouts and getting
20:08achievement badges I was not going to
20:10Boy Scouts and not getting achievement
20:12badges I was Finding devious ways to get
20:14around the rules of the home because the
20:16whole home life just I watched it
20:18deteriorate from what typical Kids on
20:20the Block were doing to coming home from
20:23school that I didn't like
20:25anyway um and ironically I have a I IQ I
20:29didn't know that till I was locked up
20:30the first time for murder I always
20:33thought I was a little missing up here a
20:34little short uh because I was always
20:37called stupid I called slow don't you
20:39think when you do things that was the
20:41problem I wasn't thinking when I did
20:42things I just did by wrote I did by
20:45memory I did by example and I had
20:48absolutely no faith in myself at all I
20:50had no interaction going on in my own
20:52mind I was not a thinker I was not an
20:54individual I had a teacher in the ninth
20:56grade who changed all that he made me
20:58think he would not tolerate my not
21:00thinking he was an art teacher and it
21:02was a devastating experience for me
21:05because there were gears in my head that
21:06were just rusty and they were barely
21:08moving or not at all and that's when I
21:10found out that's what the state of my
21:12mind's functioning was I didn't think to
21:15the point of he points at a stapler on
21:17his desk and says what does that say and
21:19I looked at I said silver line he says
21:21look again and he's he's raving at me
21:23and I look and it said swing line all I
21:25had to do was look at it and read it but
21:28I glan at it and threw it back at him
21:30out of panic so he made me think and he
21:34gave me puzzles to work out in school in
21:36my class where I had to resolve these to
21:38continue on with a class I had to think
21:41I had to use
21:42abstracts and after that started that
21:46became fascinating to me so I got more
21:48and more involved in thinking and about
21:50my surroundings and things like that but
21:51by then I was locked up but what was
21:54your relationship with your sister which
21:56one I have two yes the one you you was
22:00playing strange games of death with her
22:03with one of my younger sister yeah my
22:05older sister was 5 years older than me
22:07so she was off with her friends and in a
22:09distant relationship my younger sister's
22:11two years younger and I developed some
22:15morbid games um my life had started
22:18going that way at about
22:208 uh we lived in a house where there was
22:22a
22:23basement uh some people think there was
22:25a trap door on that basement that's not
22:27so that was a different house
22:29it was a walk-in basement but it was in
22:31Montana it was a full basement had
22:33Granite walls uh hun wood floorboards
22:37and it looked like some old dungeon out
22:39of a castle or something I was 8 years
22:41old 7 and a half eight years old and
22:43then I was very susceptible my
22:45imagination was very livid and there was
22:48an old furnace in the basement that had
22:50been converted from burning coal to
22:53burning and coal and wood to burning gas
22:57and that was it had a central feeding
22:58system with u uh your typical radiators
23:02and if you've ever lived in a home like
23:03that you know the binging the clang the
23:06pop the the rattles the weird sounds in
23:08the night that can be spooky to a
23:10kid well at a certain time of the
23:13evening the family left the center room
23:15the the living room of the house my
23:18mother and my sisters or my sisters
23:20themselves would go up to bed upstairs
23:22where I used to go to bed
23:24upstairs I had to go down to the
23:26basement and an 8-year-old child had a
23:28tough time differentiating the reason in
23:31that why am I going to the basement I'm
23:33going to hell they're going to heaven uh
23:36Earth is the living room I'm going down
23:39to deal with demons and monsters and
23:41ghosts and all the things that scare me
23:43they don't have to there's a house with
23:46three women and one male one boy me and
23:53uh I got a little defensive I'm saying
23:55gee this is kind of ganging up my older
23:57sister had had a baby basement bedroom
23:59okay and it was a storage room that was
24:01uh about 18 ft wide and 35 ft long okay
24:06it was a concrete room no windows and it
24:09had a light bulb over a big industrial
24:13iron sink you know like a laundry sink
24:16and had a pull string on the light the
24:19bed was in the opposite corner of the
24:21room was a double
24:22bed a single bed and um I had a dresser
24:26halfway I had a couple of carpets thrown
24:28on the floor old carpets and there's a
24:30lot of storage stuff along the wall and
24:33uh I was there about 6 months in that
24:35room and I developed some very very uh
24:38particular and articulate um rituals
24:42that I felt I had to go through to
24:44protect myself I was again it's
24:46embarrassing I was a Youngster and if
24:49you can imagine me going down a
24:52staircase of rough Hune wood there's no
24:54guard rail so one step wrong and you're
24:57off into this black pit I turn on the
25:00light it's a little circular light
25:02switch and a single naked bulb goes on
25:05down at the bottom of these stairs okay
25:08so I turn that light on I open the door
25:10I close the door cuz my mother complains
25:12of the cold coming in from the basement
25:15I go down the stairs I get to the bottom
25:18I do a 180° turn and I walk the full
25:21length of the house on this floor with
25:23these pipes rattling and wheezing and
25:24banging over my head it's pitch black
25:27ahead of me and the only light is behind
25:30me hanging down from the ceiling I'm now
25:32cut off from the house cut off from them
25:35I walk this full length into the
25:36darkness from this gradients of light
25:38into complete darkness groping around in
25:41the dark I I do about a 45 degree angle
25:44when I get to the end and I pull the
25:46string and lights up this end and then
25:48I'm supposed to walk all the way back to
25:49the other end turn that light off and
25:51now walk toward the light from the dark
25:54and I've got this horrible Terror going
25:56on inside of me and this is every night
25:58this is every day cuz it's pitch blacked
26:00down there no
26:01windows um she didn't intend all of this
26:04and when I sniveled about it when I
26:06complained and I cried about it I got
26:08smacked in the head you know what's the
26:10matter with you quit being such a
26:12whim and she you know she was trying to
26:14solve a problem she had uh not enough
26:17room upstairs to where I didn't have to
26:19share a bedroom with a sister I'm 8
26:20years old I need to go to the basement
26:23and what were the those morbid games
26:25that you played with your sister
26:31okay well the one I
26:33remember uh someone talking about in a
26:36in a book was one it was playing gas
26:39chamber or electric chair or something
26:41and we had this big old over stuffed
26:43chair up in my room and we we'd uh it
26:46was not just my sister and I it was my
26:48sister and I and a friend close friend
26:50we got into all these games we got into
26:52one game where we'd roll up in a rug and
26:54a person that would try to get out of it
26:56it's just like a large throw run
26:58and it was uh I guess what fascinated us
27:02individually about it is it was a
27:07completely uh it broke up the monotony I
27:09guess of what we were doing didn't have
27:11a lot of toys to play with uh we got
27:13bored with those pretty quickly so we
27:15looked for things to do you roll up in
27:17the rug and and you try to get out the
27:18other two would leave the room and we
27:20see who could get out fastest you know
27:21you try to work your way out sideways or
27:24scoot out the end of it or whatever and
27:26uh went from that to being tiedy in this
27:28overstuffed chair with a cord or
27:31something or or pieces of sheet or sash
27:33or something and uh went through this
27:37process I guess that's back when in 1960
27:39when uh Carol chesman was executed down
27:43in California we're up in
27:45Montana and so I got uh there's a lot of
27:48media coverage on that because he was an
27:49author he'd written books they're trying
27:51to save his life he'd not killed anybody
27:53why are they executing him and um so
27:56that's I think where the fascination
27:58that came in that gas chamber effect but
28:01and I think it overly fascinated some
28:03people in relation to this case because
28:05it me seem so obvious a piece you know
28:09I'm preparing my mindset for doing
28:12deathly kind of things another obvious
28:14piece would actually be uh I don't know
28:17if the story is true that you beheaded
28:20uh one of the your sisters doll and cut
28:23out the hands of the doll it's
28:25interesting you bring that up um
28:31I had a cap gun it was uh by Mattel
28:35right fanner 50 was a very fancy cap gun
28:38I got it in New York City I went there
28:40for one summer with a cousin and when I
28:43came back my sister was kind of jealous
28:45my little sister for years I never
28:48really put any value on what happened
28:50tried to you know figure out beyond the
28:52obvious what happened in this
28:54scenario but she I've since found found
28:59it plausible to believe that when she
29:01was angry or jealous about something she
29:03would fuel her attitude toward resolving
29:05something she hated that cap gun because
29:08it came between us as brother and sister
29:10it was something I had that she didn't
29:12have uh that trip represented something
29:14she really wanted I she didn't get and I
29:16did uh but very soon after getting back
29:19from that trip she got in an argument
29:21with me it was over something really
29:23Petty she got really outraged she picked
29:25up that c pistol I said don't throw that
29:28and she threw it right at me Wham hard
29:31it hit the floor and my toe and it hurt
29:34bad uh but it broke the gun the inner
29:38mechanism it wouldn't work after that I
29:40picked it up I found that out it
29:42wouldn't [ __ ] and pull the trigger
29:43anymore and that really outraged me so I
29:46said so you want to play like that huh
29:47so I go running into her room she say
29:49what are you doing what are you doing
29:50she's shrieking and chasing me right so
29:52I run into her room and I grab up her
29:54Barbie doll it was the one fancy doll
29:57she had the Barbie doll everybody has
29:59one
30:00right uh she had a pair of sewing
30:02scissors sitting there and a sewing
30:04machine a sewing kit I grabbed the
30:06scissors out the head didn't decapitate
30:09it pops off so I popped that off I said
30:12well that's going to go right back on
30:13that's no damage so I took the scissors
30:15and I cut the hands off the doll I said
30:16here now you got a toy that doesn't work
30:19too good I got a toy doesn't work too
30:20good that was my attitude it wasn't
30:23quite just me going and you know uh
30:26dismembering her doll again that I think
30:28that's a little bit too quick an
30:30assignation it's not me to judge these
30:32professionals but when they look at me
30:34here on Monday morning after the
30:35football game and they say gee here's
30:37all these little parts of the puzzle oh
30:39this indicates what he was going to do
30:42and if that's the case I want to know
30:43about the teenage kid or the pre-teen
30:45kids and the puberty the pre- and post
30:48puberty kids they're going through these
30:49raging moods and attitudes that go out
30:52and kill Neighborhood Cats they hang
30:54them up from a telephone pole or hang
30:55them up from a tree shoot them full of
30:57arrows set fire to them I was reading
30:59about that in dear Abbey where are those
31:02children today are they serial killers
31:04or are they police Chiefs and Mayors and
31:07and aldermen and
31:08assemblymen but saying there are periods
31:11when kids go through very violent
31:12development into I mean potentially
31:15violent they break things they steal
31:17things they lie they go through these
31:18changes yet I've had these
31:20people uh one or two doctors in
31:23particular who I won't go into who very
31:25casually just slapped all these
31:27assignations on and say well of course
31:29if you run into a kid that's doing this
31:30kind of thing you got a developing
31:32serial killer you better put him in
31:34treatment real quick and save his life
31:36right to a point I agree with them that
31:39someone who's acting out and has a
31:41dysfunctional childhood or has just gone
31:44through a dysfunctional childhood and
31:45hasn't gotten violent yet or is heading
31:47toward that direction passive
31:50aggressive violence was the last thing I
31:52exhibited and then it was murderous
31:54violence okay so sure there there's a
31:58lot of value in getting youngsters like
32:00that help to where they can find
32:03themselves and they can find Value in
32:05themselves and they can find Value in
32:07interacting with others and they did
32:09they go in a different direction than
32:11what than what I did but to just sit
32:14there and casually lay these it it's uh
32:17I guess that bothers my ego I don't know
32:19that these people have not worked with
32:21me year after year uh the the
32:24psychiatrists and psychologists I deal
32:25with are in a prison setting they're
32:27there eight hours a day they have to
32:29deal with me every day if I am their
32:31patient and I screw up they they can
32:34kiss their job and goodbye I mean
32:35they're going to be a lot of Hell on
32:37them for not seeing this in advance and
32:39saying oh we should lock him up he might
32:41be violent right and any any psych out
32:45there any professional out there is
32:46going to tell you I think that um if
32:51they are going into my mind into my past
32:53into my
32:54feelings that there's a potential there
32:56for acting out or getting uncontrolled
32:59or being violent because they're
33:00stripping away the veneer of my
33:02civilization they're stripping away the
33:04veneer of the the protections of myself
33:08and there's a lot of things that can
33:09come jumping out of there and then to
33:10walk out of that therapy session into
33:13this kind of a setting prison where it's
33:16very violent it's very uh
33:19aggressive it's a it's a distilled kind
33:22of uh medium that uh you might encounter
33:26on a street corner somewhere the street
33:27Corner Thug or the street corner Punk or
33:30the alleyway where someone is going to
33:31take terrible advantage of you or put
33:33you in a terrible situation that you may
33:35have to be violent to get out of that's
33:38this Mainline I mean that that's where
33:39all these guys go and I'm going to walk
33:41out of a therapy session where this man
33:43has been peeling my mind so to speak and
33:45getting into my psyche and my soul and
33:48finding out what makes me tick or trying
33:50to help put me back together or help try
33:52to put me together for the first
33:55time and then I'm going to walk out of
33:57that into this medium that's not very uh
34:01conducive to good health I'm aware of
34:04that going into the situation so I'm
34:06twice as leery as the doctor is but
34:08unfortunately he's got all of these
34:10mindsets and these theories and these
34:11books he's read and that he's trained
34:14under and I guess what has happened in
34:16my life kind of jumps out of the book a
34:18few chapters ahead and the way I've
34:20experienced it the syes don't want to go
34:22that far they don't want to come out
34:24there and work the pages back into the
34:26book so that I fit in there too or my
34:29kind of CRI criminal fits into there too
34:31they kind of just stand on the edge of
34:33the book and they put on their feathers
34:34and they put on their paint and they get
34:36their rattles and then they hop around
34:38and they go into the witch doctor
34:39routine and that I resent and
34:41unfortunately so do they when they have
34:43to put on their rattles and put their
34:44crosses up and say ah he's evil get him
34:46away from us he'll take advantage of us
34:49and he'll he'll rape pillage and burn
34:52right so guess what that's where I'm on
34:55The Cutting Edge of Humanity I find out
34:57now and it doesn't matter that I find
34:59this out because I've already been cast
35:00out by Society so any any things I find
35:03out or discover or even beautiful little
35:06things I discover about the ability of
35:07the human Spirit to heal itself to to an
35:12extent enough where he can make
35:13friendships he can form bonds he can cry
35:16when someone dies of AIDS or he can feel
35:18bad when a friend gets injured or killed
35:21by someone
35:22else see what I'm saying or grows old
35:25and dies unable to go back out to the
35:27street because they won't let him out
35:28early and he's dying that kind of thing
35:30and the feeling that that develops it
35:32can develop hard Wicked feelings it can
35:35develop some very tender and some very
35:37sad feelings and then you're trying to
35:38deal with the Widow of that man through
35:40the male the very restrictive male
35:42procedures we have here see we're not
35:45supposed to co- correspond across these
35:47lates of
35:49relationship it's tough to deal with but
35:51you know what that's my world now that's
35:54what allows me to be sane let's call it
35:56quote unquote sane that's what allows me
35:57to function as a human being is is not
36:00doing time with these incredible
36:02constraints that I've caused to be on me
36:06right it's living my life right with the
36:10limitations that I've caused to happen
36:12living my life is different than doing
36:14time because then there's the ability to
36:18work into that
36:19picture
36:21um positive things giving things back
36:24like working in the blind project the
36:26volunteers of acaville where we books on
36:28the tape for the blind all over the
36:29United States and sometimes in foreign
36:31countries I participated in that program
36:35for the last 14 years I started out very
36:38very little involvement reading books uh
36:41working on beep baseballs for blind
36:44Sports um doing some clerk work working
36:47on their
36:48newsletter and uh different jobs in
36:51there become the reader supervisor
36:53teaching guys how to read the books on
36:54the
36:55tape and all the way up to the point
36:58where I became the inmate coordinator
37:00which is the lead man there it's the guy
37:02that's in charge of making sure
37:03everything works right all the time uh
37:07and when I first went into that activity
37:09they were saying there were things I
37:10could never do to ask you a question
37:13about your interview did you see a
37:14trophy case when you came
37:16in uh yes out in the foyer there's a
37:19trophy case take a look at
37:21it there's several trophies in there and
37:24a couple of them have my name on them
37:26okay and and
37:28um the reason is I'm asking you that
37:32there's a big 40in trophy in there it's
37:33triple tier trophy very impressive
37:35looking that's the volunteer of the Year
37:38award okay and and it has a little
37:40speech on the front of it on a brass
37:42plaque that says uh this award is given
37:45to the person who most epitomizes what
37:47they stand for you know the help the
37:50service of the
37:51handicap um visually impaired and this
37:55is a
37:56very uh time honored award okay they've
37:59been in existence now for 31 years I've
38:01been in that group for uh 14 of those
38:05years and when the first couple of years
38:07I was there I used to like the trophy
38:08case used to be in the blind project
38:10okay and I used to walk up and I'd look
38:12at that Trophy and I'd never had a
38:13trophy in my life I'd never had a ribbon
38:15I'd never had a plaque none of that
38:17stuff I'd never tried for it well you
38:21had to Junior Chamber of
38:24Commerce okay yeah uh
38:28uh I forgot they don't call that that
38:31though they had to get rid of that name
38:32because the Chamber of Commerce took
38:34offense to that uh JC's yeah United
38:37States JC's uh and at one point was the
38:40youngest JC in America because I was 19
38:42when I was put in as a associate member
38:44who couldn't vote and by the time I was
38:4620 I was on the board of
38:48directors um yeah okay no trophies no
38:53plaques anything like that um I got some
38:55certificates
38:58um but that was again that was in the
39:00institution that's where I'm learning to
39:02achieve I developed a better uh image of
39:04self and those around me and uh I really
39:07started cooking I started doing things
39:09real positive I felt good about it and
39:11that continued on to the streets I went
39:13to the JC's on the streets but as my
39:16relationship I was paroled to my mother
39:19okay what the these experts don't notice
39:22in the in the in the picture I haven't
39:24seen it in writing anywhere it could be
39:26somewhere uh
39:28that when I was 14 years old I ran away
39:30from my mother they mentioned that but
39:32if you look at in the overall picture
39:34why did I run away I wanted to be with
39:36my father that's a very topical uh
39:40approach to it I wanted to get away from
39:42my mother because I was dreaming
39:44thinking fantasizing murder all day long
39:48I couldn't get it out of my head she and
39:51I I couldn't battle with her because I
39:52was very intimidated by her she's 6 feet
39:54tall she weighs 2 and a qu 225 lbs she's
39:57not a fat woman she's just this great
39:59big woman who I was terrified of she had
40:01uh verbal capabilities you wouldn't
40:03believe I used to watch her field strip
40:05grown men in emotional little contests
40:09and when they get to the point where
40:10they wanted to smack her then she start
40:13attacking them on beating women oh slap
40:15the woman around you know and then she'
40:17toy with them on that and I'd watch
40:18these guys dance around the room having
40:20fits knocking out windows punch a hole
40:22in the door and stomp
40:24off and she could control people like
40:26that I'm sitting there watching that in
40:29awe from the one point of view and in
40:31Terror from the other I grew up with
40:32this stuff she did that to my dad when
40:34they were always battling before the
40:35divorce I'm not trying to put on her
40:38what happened to the girls or to her but
40:40I'm saying there was a lot of
40:42psychological involvement there did you
40:44feel early
40:47on I got it in the legs one time I
40:49turned around shrieking and she hit me
40:50in the mouth and the little keeper on
40:53the clasp flew off Little Silver Buckle
40:56thing
40:58and she smacked me this thing breaks off
40:59on my mouth right she hits me across the
41:02face with his Pelt says shut up the
41:03neighbors are going to think I'm beating
41:05you I'm looking at her what you know I'm
41:10not supposed to cry out which is a
41:12natural reaction to these great red wels
41:14that are going on me I sure I was a
41:15little [ __ ] I got roted downstairs she
41:17took me upstairs and beat the hell out
41:18of
41:19me
41:21um I would like to think it was a better
41:24part of my character that was resisting
41:26this kind of pressure to fit into some
41:28mold that she had the image of as being
41:30the good little kid I'll be damned if
41:32I'm going to be that good little kid I'm
41:33getting the hell beat out of me for not
41:35being that little kid I got I got uh I
41:39don't know what you call it resistant to
41:41it but again it's not a manly ways or in
41:44prideful ways it was sneaky levious ways
41:46I'd get around that and one of the ways
41:49was she won't give me an allowance I'll
41:50take money out of her purse I never
41:52robbed her took all of it I'd take a
41:54dime here a quarter there 15 cents there
41:5650 cents here she comes in drunk at
41:59night I she's not going to know how much
42:00change she has so to re to rebound on
42:03that she started counting her money at
42:05all kinds of odd times to keep on top of
42:07me and it was like a game we played for
42:09years at the age of 13 she finally lets
42:13me go visit my father okay down in La
42:16where I was born I'm in Montana where
42:18she was born I don't like Montana it's
42:21cold in the winter it's hot in the
42:22summer it's miserable and the people up
42:23there are nice people but hey they're
42:25not my people that's what I'm saying now
42:28I wasn't viewing or voicing those things
42:30then I was feeling them but I didn't
42:31know how to put them into
42:32words so I finally get to come down and
42:35see my dad again down in La all right
42:38one
42:39month I never touched her purse again
42:42that scared her that really bothered her
42:44because she had never she beat me
42:47halfway senseless with that belt trying
42:49to impress and and Terror tactics okay
42:52we're going to eat dinner and I'm going
42:53to beat your ass afterwards you know so
42:54I can think about it for a half hour or
42:56after after some little thing she's
42:58doing and she tried psychological
43:00tactics she tried I'm going to put you
43:01in an orphanage I'm going to disavow you
43:03and none of that [ __ ] worked so I go see
43:06my dad for 30 days and my stepbrother
43:09and I we go out in molans we say gee dad
43:13Co you know you're going out to dinner
43:14tonight can we go someplace and eat and
43:16he say sure give us a few dollars we go
43:18down to some little diner down the
43:20street he treated us like little men
43:22like he wanted to be treated by his he
43:25came from a matriarchal house old too I
43:27guess if you know how that stuff runs in
43:29families right matriarchal household the
43:32son goes out and finds a mother image
43:34and marries her I didn't know all this
43:35stuff back then it would have made a lot
43:37more sense right but I got this
43:39domineering grandmother on my father's
43:41side I got this uh domineering
43:43grandmother on my mother's side who died
43:45before I was born but now she's
43:47reincarnated in my mother and her sister
43:49my Aunt they're two very domineering
43:52very aggressive very successful
43:54women Okay so these two women are in
43:58terrible conflict with each other
43:59competition you know and uh they didn't
44:03get along at all all right so I'm in the
44:05middle of that trying to find my my way
44:08and I go stay with my dad and he I can
44:12only say he reflected back on his
44:14childhood and said Gee I wish I'd been
44:15treated this way so that's how he
44:17treated me and my step brother and we
44:18responded to that we go if we needed
44:20spending money we would go out and we do
44:22tasks around the neighborhood clean
44:24yards rake this mow that water the
44:27flowers and make a few dollars and we'd
44:29have some fun okay and
44:32then um sometimes he'd ask us to do
44:35something we do it because he was always
44:36fair with us and kind and he was
44:39generous with us so 30 30 days of doing
44:43this opened up whole new feelings in me
44:45that I'd never had before and I wish I'd
44:48had more experience with my father
44:50growing up so I could Orient more to
44:52being tall around not tall
44:55peers um
44:57there was a I I call it an artificial
45:00paranoia that developed where I walk
45:02into a room everybody stops and looks at
45:04me because I'm the tallest guy they've
45:06seen or the tallest guy in the room they
45:08stop and they look and ironically the
45:11average or short guy is sitting over
45:13there looking at me with a great
45:15resentment because he wants that
45:16attention I've got it he thinks it's
45:19really neat cuz he's looking at it from
45:20a uh a vicarious position he doesn't
45:25realize that there's thorny sides to
45:27that attention I don't want that
45:28attention I want to just blend into the
45:30room I just want to kind of Sidle in so
45:33I see two kinds of uh tall men or tall
45:36male or tall female personalities those
45:38who are very passive because of all of
45:40this thrust on them or who are very
45:43aggressive and they use that and they
45:44apply it towards ends you know like the
45:47little guy who goes out and becomes the
45:48bank president and he's the champion
45:50this and did that never saw the fourth
45:52grade yeah because he's real aggressive
45:54cuz he's denied all those little
45:55attentions he has to grab them and he
45:57has to go out there and put himself in
45:58the Limelight I get it naturally so
46:00there's resentment and little guys
46:02tormented me all the time I'm growing up
46:05did you feel like an outsider an outcast
46:07early on I always felt like an outsider
46:09and it's again because I didn't ever fit
46:11in I moved around a lot for one thing uh
46:14I went to different schools when I was
46:16in Los Angeles from age you know 5 till
46:187 when I'm going to uh kindergarten
46:21first grade second grade uh I got in
46:23trouble in public school and I look fond
46:26with back on those times because that's
46:28when I was acting out and I was normal
46:30you know what I'm saying I'm not saying
46:32I went around and kidnapped people in
46:34classrooms or broke windows out we
46:36didn't get into stuff like that but I
46:37was tardy and I was messing around and I
46:39was recalcitrant I was getting bad marks
46:42for it and my parents were getting
46:44called by the PTA but you know what
46:47that's a hell of a lot better than a few
46:49years later when I'm real spooky and I'm
46:51real quiet and nobody ever hears from me
46:53and I'm in school and I go home and very
46:55few people knew me
46:57because I'm in that basement and now I'm
46:59pulling into myself and now things are
47:01getting
47:02very morbid in their
47:05orientation I start becoming fascinated
47:07with things evolving around death and
47:10destruction and evil and all of that I'm
47:12not saying I became a Satan worshipper
47:14because I didn't I was afraid of evil
47:16things afraid of those
47:18Powers uh that we all don't understand
47:22and as a little kid you know I had a
47:25very very strange orientation to those I
47:26mean it wasn't rational what was your
47:29your fantasies at that time morbid
47:35fantasies at what about age eight or
47:37nine or later on when you said you were
47:41thinking all the time about
47:46death what I was fantasizing about I was
47:49building up big loads of frustration
47:51inside big loads of uh
47:54of hatred because
47:57I had no outlet for it I should have
48:00developed Outlets but I didn't know how
48:01at that time so the outlets that
48:04developed themselves or I developed
48:06without knowing it um were fantasies
48:08about um me being the last I got that
48:12out of a school book this thing of being
48:14the last person alive on the world and
48:16and the the thing that was posed to me
48:18in this textbook was it was uh uh social
48:21studies and it was meant to play upon
48:24the loneliness youngsters can feel
48:27and it's a very uncomfortable feeling
48:29and you can't have love and you can't
48:31have adventure and you can't have
48:32excitement without being able to share
48:34it with other people because that's
48:36where a lot of the dimension comes from
48:38okay so they pose this thing at me what
48:41if you were the last person in the world
48:42and you had all these cars and airplanes
48:44and boats and ships and and things to do
48:47but nobody to share it with right um
48:51wouldn't that be awful and I thought hey
48:53that's a thought I never thought of that
48:55before so it became a seed like a little
48:58core to fantasies for me some mysterious
49:01thing has happened and everybody else
49:02has gone and I got all these things I
49:04can do no inhibitions no restrictions I
49:07can do what I want I don't get yelled at
49:08anymore okay that soon became very
49:10Hollow so I built upon that and added to
49:13it well people were still around but
49:14they were inanimate they couldn't affect
49:17me they couldn't hurt me and then it
49:19went further and further and further
49:21till finally uh by the time I'm reaching
49:23uh puberty I'm approaching puberty and
49:26I'm starting to to sense myself and I've
49:28already been accosted by a girlfriend
49:30not sexually physically but emotionally
49:33she's trying to you
49:34know she was a little ahead of me uh
49:37we're the same age but she was uh pretty
49:39aggressive and she a beautiful young
49:42girl uh but I wasn't ready for that kind
49:45of relationship and I was scared by it
49:47she kind of cowed me into backing away
49:49from the relationship all together
49:51because she wanted to get physical she
49:52wanted to kiss and to neck and to smooch
49:54and imitate what she saw in older kids
49:57and that kind of terrified me because I
49:59didn't understand the feelings inside at
50:01one point your sister teased you also
50:04about a woman school teacher and you
50:08said uh if I wanted to kiss her I had
50:12have to kill her
50:14first yeah that had been um that had
50:17been a uh
50:20um you can imagine how that goes uh deep
50:24dark secrets that one sibling shares
50:27with another it's troubling inside of me
50:30so uh that was from that that period
50:32that more advanced period where people
50:34were still there they just weren't
50:37animate they could not react or respond
50:40to what I was feeling or what I was
50:42sharing because what I was sharing was
50:43very embarrassing very humiliating it's
50:46hard to talk about now really because
50:48it's uh obviously it
50:51affects uh how a person feels about
50:53himself but it's not too hard to get
50:55around that because then I look at the
50:57wreckage I have behind me the dead
51:00people caused by my self-indulgence in
51:04Fantasy Life and and my self-indulgence
51:06and not doing something about it like
51:09getting help
51:10or taking action against myself even a
51:13lot of people committed suicide at early
51:15age and they don't understand why you
51:18know and a lot of times uh Again by
51:22troubled parents and school counselors
51:24they'll water it down into well he
51:26couldn't adjust and he was having a
51:28difficult time so he took his life I
51:31would not want to say too casually that
51:33they're probably pretty lucky he did not
51:35in every case not even in most cases but
51:37in some of those cases you might have
51:39had some very inwardly violent young
51:42people that they had on the one hand the
51:44prospect of they're about to act out and
51:46on the other in a very violent way or a
51:48very un unsocial and socially abhorent
51:52way and on the other hand they keep
51:54holding it in you know and they say
51:56can't do that so they you know sometimes
51:58they kill themselves I played with death
52:01um one of my favorite tricks back then
52:03was to go out and lay in front of the in
52:05the cars in the
52:07traffic I'm walking down the sidewalk
52:09with a friend you know it's a Rous about
52:12friend and we're clowning around about
52:14something and I'll say hey check this
52:15out and I'll go lay in the street like a
52:18stiff I go I'll lay in the street like I
52:19got run over and a car comes driving by
52:22and of course I'm expecting this guy
52:23isn't drunk I'm expecting this guy isn't
52:25slightly mented and say hey there's a
52:27kid laying in front of me it's his fault
52:29bo bo you know just shift gears going
52:31over me they always stop and they get
52:33jump out of the car and get all upset
52:35when I get up and walk off or run away
52:37and uh but it was a little game we
52:39played he didn't go lay in front of the
52:41car so I was doing that you know I laugh
52:44now because it's embarrassing but uh it
52:47indicated I think uh how little I
52:49thought of myself I think it indicated
52:52that a part of me would rather I got run
52:55over right then then uh I pursue what I
52:58was continuing to pursue in my life
53:01because you know looking at myself and
53:03how I was developing inside nothing good
53:05could come of that and you had also a
53:07great admiration for John Wayne at the
53:10time he looked a lot like my dad and he
53:13acted a lot like my dad my dad was kind
53:15of a big loud guy actually John Wayne
53:19was
53:206'4 had very little tiny feet my dad was
53:236'7 he had little tiny feet and you
53:26notice how comedians when they imitate
53:28how John Wayne walked uh there's this
53:31rambling thing with the hips waving and
53:34they always do this trip you ever wonder
53:36why he didn't just pick that way to walk
53:38I found uh quite by accident that very
53:41big men with very little feet who have
53:43abnormally small feet have a tough time
53:45balancing and it's a little Balancing
53:46Act they're going through I went to uh
53:49Gran's Chinese Theater after it was
53:51renamed and I went and checked all those
53:53different Footprints out and here I'd
53:55grown up as a kid
53:57not a very tall kid looking at other
53:59people being like this much shorter than
54:01me um in my mind's eye it was all
54:04balanced and when I saw pictures of
54:06other kids in me or other people in me
54:08and there's this great difference it was
54:09always shocking to me too because I
54:11never saw it that way but here I went I
54:13watch all these movies and TV programs
54:15and I see these people as being bigger
54:17than me because I'm a youth and then I
54:19go to this this physical exhibit where
54:22it shows their foot size and I step on
54:25John Wayne's bootprint with his cowboy
54:27boot and my shoe completely covers it
54:29over it's
54:30gone when I was 14 years old I had
54:33bigger feet than he did you know when I
54:36was 14 years old I had bigger feet than
54:38my father I was 6' 3 and A2 he's
54:4167 he works on a construction site as an
54:44electrician I'm going to Junior High
54:46School we go to Kenny's we get the same
54:48kind of Oxford shoes black oxfords I
54:51wear a 14 1/2 excuse me I wear a 12 and
54:561/2 he wears a
54:5712 all right in the mixup of getting up
55:00and going to work and going to school in
55:02the morning he comes running around the
55:03house looking for his shoes he grabs
55:05mine I can't find mine so I go running
55:07around the house and I grab his and all
55:09day long I'm walking around with these
55:11pinched feet I got blisters developing
55:13he's flopping around at work half a size
55:16too big in his shoe and he says God damn
55:18it got my kids shoes again and they're
55:20all saying gee Big Ed you know your kid
55:24got you got his shoes on and you're
55:25flopping around in them and they he
55:26thought that was great well that was a
55:27big laugh right hey I I was kind of
55:29proud of that too cuz it's following in
55:31Father's Footsteps when I was 14 years
55:33old I put his old army jacket on his
55:36class a uniform I put his jacket on and
55:38if I had pulled my shoulders forward I
55:40would have ripped it right up the back
55:42because I had broader shoulders than he
55:44had my head's larger than his is I have
55:47a very large head I wear an 8 and 3/4
55:49helmet for a motorcycle 8 and 3/4 is
55:53very big it's hard to find a helmet like
55:54that
55:56actually what's strange is that uh
55:59another serial killer from Santa Cruz
56:01herb Millan grew up hating John way
56:05actually I wouldn't blame him I was in
56:07jail cell right next to him for months
56:09and I was in prison up in the hole here
56:11in the lockup unit for uh going on three
56:15years with him about two two and a half
56:16years and at one point I got him a job
56:19in the kitchen I was already on the
56:20kitchen crew and a sergeant pulled me
56:22aside and asked me to talk to the guys
56:24about him coming on the crew cuz he
56:25alien it a lot of the guys and they were
56:27afraid there'd be violence so I talked
56:30to them and there was no problem so they
56:31brought him out to the crew he worked a
56:33few months he goes to the mainline I'm
56:35still sitting in the hole saying geez
56:37what happened
56:39here you know uh I knew Herby and uh I
56:43don't call him Herbert Mullen and of
56:45course I don't call myself Edmund a m
56:47ker III either I never heard that in my
56:49life until I was locked up for murder
56:52right um but little Herby was when I met
56:56met him in Redwood City Jail okay our
56:59first meeting was I bumped him out of
57:01the priority cell where they could look
57:03from the office and see through the
57:04steel door the glass in the door and see
57:06him physically or they could watch the
57:08Monitor and watch him he got bumped next
57:11door there was a shower in the priority
57:13cell never had to leave the cell for him
57:16to shower from the other cell he had to
57:17go out into the main area they had to
57:20lock everybody in one of the uh uh I
57:23guess you call them tanks they move
57:25every 15 guys 30 guys out of the tank
57:27into the activity area they'd walk him
57:30around into their tank he'd shower he'd
57:32come back out all the way over there and
57:34all the way back they're cat calling him
57:35they're calling him names they're
57:36yelling because he caused them great
57:39interruption in their day right he
57:42resented that he got bumped out of the
57:44priority cell into a non- shower cell I
57:47got the shower
57:48cell right so he wasn't too friendly at
57:52first and I'd say uh excuse me Mr Mullen
57:55I said do you have a bar of soap there's
57:57no soap over here he took it all with
57:59him he had no need for it but he took it
58:01with him and you'd say yes and I'd say
58:03well can I use a bar of it he said
58:06no I say oh I got one of these little
58:08shits here and what it is he's a little
58:11wimpy guy that hates big guys because he
58:13always feels intimidated by them right
58:15and that's how we started out so I
58:18started thinking about that and I went
58:19back to my old relationships and therapy
58:21and group therapy and tasad and Youth
58:24Authority and stuff and I'm saying okay
58:26well we can deal with this so I started
58:29I said well I have to be kind to him so
58:31I found out something he liked he loved
58:33Planters peanuts little bags of peanuts
58:36shelled peanuts and uh so I bought 20 30
58:39bags of them I didn't care for them
58:41myself and uh I offered him some one day
58:44and they were both on camera 24 hours a
58:46day so I said Herby would you like some
58:49peanuts and he'd say yeah and I say oh I
58:52got to him right down to the inner core
58:53there yeah this little childhood thing
58:56comes out and I says oh here and he was
58:59fascinated by this thought of gee he's
59:00just giving me some peanuts and I didn't
59:02do anything for him I don't know him you
59:04know I'm not being nice to him why would
59:06he give me some peanuts so he comes over
59:08to the bars we can't even see each other
59:10and I reach out with these peanuts
59:11around the side and I see this little
59:13hand come out and I thought of it almost
59:16as a little monkey paw that's what it
59:18seemed like so innocent in this little
59:20little hand comes out starts to reach
59:21for the peanuts and then he and then he
59:23hesitated then he pulls back and I
59:26thought oh geez he's defensive he's
59:28thinking I'm going to grab his hand and
59:29rip his arm off or something I'm this
59:30great big guy right so without saying
59:33anything I just reached around and I
59:35laid him on the bars and then pulled my
59:37hand away and he took them and he
59:38enjoyed them and all of that and I'd say
59:41later I'd say gee uh Herby you eat all
59:42those peanuts and he'd say oh no I still
59:44got some left I said well I got plenty
59:45more I says go ahead and enjoy them so
59:48what I did is I started giving him bags
59:49of
59:50peanuts and he had this horrible habit
59:53there's guys back in the tank and he and
59:55I are in these cells fac facing them
59:56through three bars three sets of bars
59:59and I can't see him and he can't see me
1:00:01I don't know where on the set of bars he
1:00:03is the set of bars is maybe 9 ft wide
1:00:06and you know eight or nine ft high and
1:00:10when he would get to acting up he'd sit
1:00:11there for hours writing and writing at
1:00:14this little
1:00:15desk and uh the other guys were ignoring
1:00:17him so that night they're watching
1:00:19Saturday Night Special you know with all
1:00:20this rock music playing and stuff and
1:00:22they're enjoying it and he'd get up and
1:00:24make this real loud speech about how bad
1:00:26television is for you and why you
1:00:27shouldn't watch it all the things it'll
1:00:29do to you and they're having fits
1:00:32they're trying to throw things at him
1:00:33they can't get at him they're raging
1:00:35they're mad because he's destroying the
1:00:36one thing they really enjoy and he's
1:00:38just having a ball doing this he'll sit
1:00:40for hours all day riding this two-hour
1:00:42speech exactly as long as it takes to
1:00:44watch that show so he'd also sit over
1:00:47there and sing these horrible songs he
1:00:49couldn't sing a lick at all and he's
1:00:51singing these horrible songs and one
1:00:53time I was in the car coming back to
1:00:55Redwood City and the cop got so upset at
1:00:57this singing he's doing in the back of
1:00:58the station wagon he turns around with
1:01:00his can of Mace he says I've had it get
1:01:02out of the way keer and I'm saying hey
1:01:03wait a minute you're going to get me
1:01:05with that stuff he's trying to mace the
1:01:07guy in the back of the car cuz he's he
1:01:08won't shut up and he's trying to get him
1:01:11to shut up and the guy just ignore him
1:01:12he had this way of really getting in
1:01:14people's nerves so he'd pull these
1:01:16little stunts these horrible songs and
1:01:18the speeches and things and I'd say
1:01:19harby why do you do stuff like that he
1:01:21says oh I have a right to do what I want
1:01:23to do too and yeah okay right so I
1:01:26started this what they call be just real
1:01:27basic behavior modification therapy okay
1:01:30I'd had a little bit of psychology study
1:01:32I'd worked in the psych testing area in
1:01:34a task aduro I knew some of these things
1:01:36so I set up a very basic and very
1:01:38essential just bare minimum Behavior mod
1:01:42experiment behavior modification right
1:01:45you reward them when they're good you
1:01:46punish them when they're bad and if
1:01:47you're absolutely accurate in when you
1:01:50do these things quick punishment when
1:01:52they do bad and quick reward when they
1:01:54do good supposedly this is is supposed
1:01:56to attack you at a subliminal level a
1:01:59subconscious level and you don't have a
1:02:00lot of control over your reactions that
1:02:02it would improve your behavior
1:02:03essentially and then they have these
1:02:04great elaborate experiments like in
1:02:06Youth Authority when I went through
1:02:08where they try these things so what I
1:02:10did is when he was bad I'd get a cup
1:02:12full of water in a styrofoam cup and I'd
1:02:14reach around I'd throw it on him and
1:02:16it's embarrassing and it also gets his
1:02:18papers wet and you know so we got in
1:02:22this cat and mouse game when he was good
1:02:23I'd give him peanuts and I'd try to gas
1:02:25him when he was bad called gassing throw
1:02:26this water on him and he duck all over
1:02:29the house I couldn't figure out where he
1:02:30was at so I kept missing him so what I
1:02:34did is I waited one day till I knew he
1:02:35was asleep or I suspected he was and I
1:02:37called one of the guys over to the bars
1:02:39from the uh the the the place in the
1:02:42back the tank and I went like this I
1:02:45went and I
1:02:46says and he reads it he
1:02:50says and I said I called him over to the
1:02:52bars and I said hey I said I want to
1:02:55work something out where I can get Herby
1:02:57with these cups of water and he can't
1:02:58figure out how I'm doing it and I says I
1:03:00just thought of a way and he says what's
1:03:02that and I said I want you to set up a
1:03:03grid on the bars where you're at put a
1:03:06little piece of string or a little piece
1:03:07of plastic or a little something he
1:03:10won't notice count over how many bars
1:03:12there are on his cell on his cell front
1:03:14and and from the wall go over that far
1:03:16on your set and set up
1:03:18boundaries and then when I give you a
1:03:20signal that will be a hand signal very
1:03:23casually walk over don't look at me just
1:03:25casually walk over and drape yourself on
1:03:27the bars where he's at so I'll know and
1:03:30if he's back away from the bars go back
1:03:32that far and position yourself so I it's
1:03:34Grid it's targeting grid so he would do
1:03:37this and Herby youd hear me turn the
1:03:39water on or maybe I'd have some already
1:03:41set up and I would reach through the
1:03:43bars and I blast him I got him every
1:03:44time and he couldn't figure out how all
1:03:46of a sudden I got so accurate you know
1:03:50and it was without fail I get him with
1:03:51that water Wham and you know it's
1:03:53embarrassing and everybody's laughing
1:03:55back there and good shoad and all that
1:03:57stuff and then I'd ask him if he'd do
1:04:00something or hey can we do this or
1:04:01whatever you know and he'd participate
1:04:03in something with me I give him peanuts
1:04:05when he's bad he gets blasted with water
1:04:07this went on for two or three weeks and
1:04:09he actually got away from the bad
1:04:11behavior when he said hey I want to sing
1:04:12and I says well hey guy's in the back do
1:04:14you mind if he sings oh we don't want to
1:04:16hear that [ __ ] now I said hey you want
1:04:17to hear it now or do you want to hear it
1:04:18tonight when you're watching the
1:04:20show yeah okay so go ahead Herby sing
1:04:24what did what did you sing sing for 30
1:04:2640 seconds and then get bored and say GE
1:04:28I don't want to do this anymore you know
1:04:30cuz the fun was gone out of it but the
1:04:32point is it got to handle on his
1:04:34behavior and the cops are watching this
1:04:36the deputies are on camera watching me I
1:04:38mean they're on the monitors watching
1:04:40every move I'm making right and they're
1:04:42fascinated they're watching this thing
1:04:43going back and forth with me and Herby
1:04:45they're not involving themselves they're
1:04:46just watching it and after a while one
1:04:48of them come in and said Herby is
1:04:50completely Cooperative now he's not
1:04:51messing around because I've been as as
1:04:54we're talking these little frictions out
1:04:57between he and I I'm showing him some
1:04:59insights into why people don't like him
1:05:01I'm showing some insights into what his
1:05:03behavior is causing in them and he had
1:05:05realized by that point that it was just
1:05:07he's reacting to how people are reacting
1:05:10to him and it's just a self-perpetuating
1:05:12thing and it was the only way he could
1:05:14get out his negative feelings and I said
1:05:16well why don't you pose on the positive
1:05:18focus on the positive instead and the
1:05:20negative will go away I don't think
1:05:22anybody ever did that with him before
1:05:24cuz he responded real well to it and
1:05:25later when we were up here in the hole
1:05:27together and we weren't even supposed to
1:05:29be together they didn't want us together
1:05:30but we were up in the hole together uh I
1:05:33was the only guy he could talk to a lot
1:05:35of pain inside he had a lot of Anguish
1:05:37inside he had a lot of hate inside and
1:05:39it was addressed at people he didn't
1:05:41even know because he didn't dare do
1:05:42anything to the people he knew because
1:05:44he was aware of all of the structure
1:05:46around that and that that would be the
1:05:47end of his
1:05:49life and so I started the way I found
1:05:51out about these things is I would pose
1:05:53little comments or questions a at him as
1:05:56we're sitting up there on the tier on
1:05:58the concrete floor sitting there against
1:05:59the wall talking to one
1:06:02another and I would say uh how did you
1:06:05feel you know what did you when you
1:06:07bought that little Saturday Night
1:06:08Special 22 I says uh did you ever go out
1:06:11shooting with that you know just target
1:06:13shooting he says well not much and I
1:06:16said well try this on you loaded it up
1:06:18you went out you set up bottles you set
1:06:20up cans you set them around in little
1:06:22areas right around close and and
1:06:24practice shooting them real fast
1:06:26and he looks at me all shocked he says
1:06:28how do you know that I said cuz that's
1:06:31what I used to do those were people
1:06:33those weren't cans and bottles and you
1:06:34never told anybody so he got all
1:06:36fascinated about how I was able to read
1:06:38his mind and stuff I wasn't I saw a
1:06:41kindred spirit there somebody who was
1:06:43doing something very similar to what I
1:06:44was doing as a child he went to mental
1:06:47institutions and he went through
1:06:50this these processes where these doctors
1:06:52told him what was wrong with them and
1:06:54these doctors treated things that they
1:06:55decided were wrong with him and he just
1:06:57sat back very passively and went through
1:06:59these treatments and they had almost no
1:07:00effect on him because he didn't dare say
1:07:02what was really going on in his head
1:07:04because they would cast him off
1:07:06somewhere he'd be totally separated from
1:07:08the human race and there were certain
1:07:10things he and certain things I enjoyed
1:07:13in being in the human race and being
1:07:14part of the human race we weren't
1:07:16willing to let go of so that was that
1:07:18that little desperate hanging on so here
1:07:20comes these professionals saying oh this
1:07:22is wrong with you little lad and this is
1:07:24wrong with you and we're going to f fix
1:07:25this up and okay okay I'm well and yeah
1:07:28goes out and buys a gun and starts
1:07:29killing people and I talk about what
1:07:32happened when he killed those people oh
1:07:33they fell dead and I said no they did
1:07:35this they did that they gurgled and they
1:07:37some of them kept moving like you you
1:07:39hadn't even shot them and you shot them
1:07:41again and he says how did you know this
1:07:43you weren't there and I says I know I
1:07:45never told anybody that I know I was
1:07:48there on my own trip I know what
1:07:51happened Herby don't give me that
1:07:52[ __ ] about earthquakes and don't
1:07:54give me that crap about uh God was
1:07:55telling you I says you couldn't even be
1:07:57talking to me now if God was talking to
1:07:59you because of the pressure I'm putting
1:08:00on you right now these little shocking
1:08:02insights into what you did God would
1:08:05start talking to you right now if you
1:08:06were really that kind of ill because I
1:08:08grew up with people like that where in a
1:08:11maximum security hospital for the
1:08:13criminally insane
1:08:16adults I was 15 years old when I went
1:08:20there to go back before that time when
1:08:24you run away from your mother and went
1:08:26to your grandmother no went to my father
1:08:29Yes but afterwards when you went to your
1:08:31grandmother you were 14 I think mhm uh
1:08:35why did you feel you had to kill
1:08:40her that was an outburst wasn't I had
1:08:43felt I had to uh I went up there hoping
1:08:46I didn't go there for one thing I got
1:08:48left there we went there for Christmas
1:08:50from my father's in La we went up to the
1:08:52mountains to stay for Christmas and I
1:08:54got left behind
1:08:56I was having friction with my
1:08:58stepbrother and my stepmother there was
1:09:00problems there uh we were vying for his
1:09:02interests vying for his love they were
1:09:05desperate because they're the new family
1:09:07I'm desperate because I've never had the
1:09:08man in my life I wanted my father's love
1:09:10I wanted his approval I wanted his
1:09:12recognitions and we all got very greedy
1:09:14and desperate at that time so we fought
1:09:16each other a lot and it was a lot of
1:09:18friction and he couldn't handle that so
1:09:19he got rid of me uh I was old family I
1:09:22was already failure so you know I got
1:09:24parked up in the mou there's a lot of
1:09:26dressing on it and window dressing and
1:09:27things but I was up there with them for
1:09:3110 months uh at first it was okay
1:09:34because it was the calm of being away
1:09:36from Montana there wasn't the the Hest
1:09:38stuff was going to a good
1:09:40school uh as the months went on um the
1:09:44veneer went away my grandmother had made
1:09:46agreements with me from the gate that
1:09:49she wouldn't get into little humiliating
1:09:50mind games with me like my mother and
1:09:53stepfather had done right and I agreed I
1:09:58wouldn't do certain things and then this
1:09:59mind game stuff started up she decided
1:10:02she's going to raise me like she raised
1:10:04her three sons and she's going to get
1:10:05rid of all this negative crap that my
1:10:07mother put on me she's recognizing it as
1:10:10something my mother put on me and I
1:10:12don't know that it wasn't some of it was
1:10:15but a lot of it was my inability to deal
1:10:18with uh complex critical psychological
1:10:22situations I could not deal with them so
1:10:24I resisted it I ran away that was my
1:10:27answer to run I ran from the people in
1:10:30Montana I ran from my mother in Montana
1:10:32uh I let my father parked me up there to
1:10:34get away from The Strife in La now I'm
1:10:37stuck all the Bridges bridges are burned
1:10:39because my grandparents are there 24
1:10:40hours a day I can't run from them she
1:10:43never let me get out of her sight for
1:10:44more than an hour without yelling my
1:10:46name out to see where I was she was
1:10:48convinced I wanted to go down the
1:10:49mountain into town little North Fork to
1:10:53uh hang around with kids boues and stuff
1:10:56and be a juvenile delinquent so she
1:10:58would never let me go down there on my
1:10:59own she'd never let me leave the
1:11:02property
1:11:03and I just it started simmering I guess
1:11:07started building the the the passions
1:11:09and attention I started developing the
1:11:11fantasies toward her from my mother
1:11:13killing her and the decapitation
1:11:16fantasies were even there they were in
1:11:18they were in place by then already and
1:11:21uh were those
1:11:23fantes what were they no
1:11:26yes
1:11:28um possessing the severed heads of
1:11:31women men didn't turn me on that wasn't
1:11:34very I couldn't appreciate the
1:11:36appearances of a guy I see movies as a
1:11:39youth and I'm you know I'm seeing this
1:11:41was
1:11:42a not common but it was a frequent
1:11:47feature in some movies where they use a
1:11:49shock effect they'll have someone get
1:11:50their head cut off or there's a head
1:11:52sitting there when they come around the
1:11:53corner or open the drawer or something
1:11:56and it went from that got caught up in
1:11:58my morbid Fascination I made a comment
1:12:01and someone wrote about it that uh that
1:12:04when I was young I was about eight or
1:12:06nine years old I went to a this little
1:12:10come on it was like at a record store or
1:12:12something and they had this crowd of
1:12:13kids there and there was a magic show
1:12:15and this guy you've probably seen a the
1:12:17fake Guillotine hand pressed and they
1:12:20put the potato there and someone puts
1:12:22their neck in the uh in the brace and
1:12:24they slam this thing down and the potato
1:12:26down below chops in two but the person's
1:12:29head doesn't fall off right and
1:12:31everybody gets very fascinated by that
1:12:33oh my God and then when he puts the
1:12:34blade in place and he pushes it down it
1:12:36goes through that neck hole but it never
1:12:39chops anybody's head
1:12:40off okay so he wanted to volunteer out
1:12:43of the I'm not standing In This Crowd
1:12:45watching this show and he wanted to
1:12:47volunteer out of the audience and some
1:12:49quite beautiful little 16-year-old girl
1:12:51gets up there and it's big laugh and all
1:12:53giddy and stuff and I said start getting
1:12:55caught up in this I said
1:12:57wow right at that moment I departed
1:13:00reality because logically I should have
1:13:02been able to ascertain that that could
1:13:03not happen you're not going to get away
1:13:05with chopping somebody's head off in the
1:13:06middle of
1:13:07uh the middle of Helena Montana the
1:13:10capital
1:13:11city um but the concept of it was so raw
1:13:16and it was titilating I says wow J I got
1:13:18to watch this and he had her girlfriend
1:13:21come over and put her hands there to
1:13:24catch her head so it wouldn't fall in
1:13:25the basket you know and he was making
1:13:27jokes about this I got caught up in this
1:13:30this um this interplay between normal
1:13:33concerns you don't want to get a bump on
1:13:34her head well hey if you're chopping her
1:13:36head off it doesn't matter right and
1:13:38this is catching in my mind somehow and
1:13:40I'm saying
1:13:42wow
1:13:43and naturally everybody let out a shriek
1:13:46and they're all excited and oh wow and
1:13:48as he chops in the potato Falls and her
1:13:50head doesn't go any place and he unlocks
1:13:52the brace and she gets out laughing and
1:13:53he gives her some little prize for
1:13:55coming up and uh participating in the
1:13:58experiment that's the first time I'd
1:14:00ever seen a show like that you know you
1:14:02see things like that on TV it's one
1:14:03thing but to be there and watch things
1:14:05like that you get more caught up in it
1:14:07um and I went from there that became
1:14:10another piece that's the that's the only
1:14:13way I can really the only event in my
1:14:16life that I can align that fascination
1:14:18with was was the fact that she was a
1:14:21very alluring young lady I'm coming
1:14:24close to approaching puberty I think I
1:14:26hit it a little early because between
1:14:27the ages of about 10 and 13 I was going
1:14:29through some incredible emotional
1:14:32shifts um and they say that going into
1:14:35puberty for young men and and girls I
1:14:37guess is a very very upheaving time in
1:14:40our lives and uh without a lot of
1:14:43positive input from parental
1:14:46or adult figures um it can go in some
1:14:50really wild
1:14:51directions um in my case it was embedded
1:14:54in this negative orientation thing I
1:14:56would go back to my basement bedroom and
1:14:58I would uh fantasize to protect myself
1:15:01I'd I'd go off into fantasy worlds that
1:15:05um got it got a Vengeance on my enemies
1:15:09it got even with the bullies who picked
1:15:11on the kids and me in school it got even
1:15:13with someone who slighted
1:15:15Meers uh even adults I mean they talk uh
1:15:18in various relationships how we have our
1:15:21darker side and there's things that you
1:15:22have thought as an example
1:15:25that you'd never want to share with
1:15:26anybody because they're so cruel or
1:15:28they're so unspeakably out of sync with
1:15:31what's going on that you would be too
1:15:33ashamed to share it with someone like Bo
1:15:36I'd like to knock his head off or I'd
1:15:37like to kill this guy or she's such a
1:15:40[ __ ] you know um we all do that um I
1:15:45didn't know that so I'm adding to the
1:15:48problem the impetus of this negative
1:15:49orientation I must be really evil little
1:15:52kid because I'm thinking all these
1:15:53horrible things
1:15:55I was in thinking of them in increasing
1:15:57amounts and increasing frequency so it's
1:15:59a kind of
1:16:00conditioning and negative conditioning
1:16:03that uh I wasn't aware of other than
1:16:06effect I noticed that if I worked on a
1:16:09certain scenario a certain kind of
1:16:11patterning in my
1:16:12fantasies right after a while it became
1:16:15numb it became insignificant it became
1:16:18not enough so I had to add
1:16:20embellishments to it a new level and it
1:16:22just very subtle but over many many
1:16:24years it just kept kept going more and
1:16:26more I've known young people that I've
1:16:29been able to talk to honestly and
1:16:30they've knowing them well enough and
1:16:32friendly enough over enough years share
1:16:35with me because it was Cur it was real
1:16:37of real importance to me to know where I
1:16:39dove off the deep end and they would
1:16:42admit that sometimes they and they went
1:16:44off into happier orientations they had a
1:16:47period where they went off into some
1:16:48real morb morbid or negative
1:16:50Fascinations but they grew out of it
1:16:52quote unquote grew out of it it it
1:16:55stopped providing a service that they
1:16:57needed it stopped filling a hole or a
1:16:59gap or let's say an adult came along and
1:17:02started sharing something with them or
1:17:04showed them a new Avenue of acting out
1:17:06that completely
1:17:08obliterated that need or vacated it and
1:17:11they let it go I didn't the adult wasn't
1:17:14there uh my mother was there and she was
1:17:17there to beat me she was there to
1:17:19humiliate me she was there to use me as
1:17:21an example of how inferior men are and
1:17:24that was a great little lady there she
1:17:26uh kind of preceded this female Movement
1:17:28we have now of getting rights of getting
1:17:30equal rights of getting equal standing
1:17:32of getting equal presence in various
1:17:36uh theaters but actually you had
1:17:39experimented the oh I was finding out
1:17:42the hard way what women's rights and
1:17:44women's antagonism me women are drove
1:17:46about things like that they get upset
1:17:48about the belittlement they get and and
1:17:50their the the lack of uh equal quality
1:17:52that they should that they have that
1:17:54they experien
1:17:56unfortunately my mother developed and
1:17:58I'm I'm not it's not fair to talk about
1:17:59a dead person that way they can't defend
1:18:01themselves they can't give you another
1:18:03perspective on what really happened I
1:18:05can only
1:18:07surmise from to try to be fair looking
1:18:11back on it I'm seeing that she was
1:18:12making an effort to balance her pain
1:18:15with what she was
1:18:17experiencing and if you look at her dad
1:18:20he's a wimp he never did anything mom
1:18:22did everything you know so she
1:18:23orientated toward her so she comes out
1:18:26doing that stuff I find out in
1:18:27sociological studies and psychological
1:18:29studies that's normal not necessarily
1:18:32healthy but that happens and my dad
1:18:35being the wimp out of his family goes
1:18:36and finds my mom who's the Dynamo out of
1:18:38her family and they get married and
1:18:40it'll either work or it won't and in his
1:18:42case it didn't work because she kept
1:18:44hammering on him she wanted him to
1:18:46change this she wanted him to change
1:18:48that and he couldn't handle that after
1:18:5013 years he'd had enough what I resented
1:18:53was I had a mother I had a father father
1:18:55worked he brought in a big paycheck we
1:18:58had a nice house we had friends we went
1:19:00to school right we had birthdays we had
1:19:02Christmas we had
1:19:04vacations huh he had Saturday night with
1:19:07the poker buddies out the in the guest
1:19:09house by the garage we were living
1:19:10pretty
1:19:11good and uh she absolutely hated that
1:19:15this this stereotypical response of this
1:19:18dead head this mutton head she's married
1:19:20to of wanting to go out and play cards
1:19:23in a smoke filed room drinking beer here
1:19:24and with these old war
1:19:27buddies see I had another problem my
1:19:29father was in the first special service
1:19:30force in uh World War
1:19:33II uh they did a book in a movie called
1:19:35The Devil's Brigade he was a combat
1:19:37sergeant in that group and he
1:19:40volunteered for that as a single man
1:19:42they would not take married men that's
1:19:44how my parents met she was working as a
1:19:47secretary in Helena Montana the capital
1:19:49city he's a few miles out of town at an
1:19:51old retired closed down Cavalry fort for
1:19:54the US Army that was reopened as a
1:19:57secret base for these guys to train out
1:19:59of at uh Fort William Henry Harrison
1:20:02just outside of town they got to know
1:20:05each other they quite quite it wasn't
1:20:08secretly but it was very quietly got
1:20:09married because if they didn't know he
1:20:11got married he had been kicked out of
1:20:12the group this is what was described as
1:20:14a suicide Brigade 5,000 men trained in
1:20:17just in all his Devastation ways right
1:20:20he goes off to war and he does some
1:20:22horrible things he can't talk about
1:20:25those things

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