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'Dungeon Crawler Carl’ by Matt Dinniman with Mallory Rubin | Jeselnik Book Club — Transcript

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0:06Hey everybody, Anthony Jeselnik here
0:07with another episode of Jeselnik Book
0:10Club.
0:11Uh listen guys, I'm not a book snob.
0:14I try to do this show in order to get
0:17everyone to read something.
0:20And I like book snobs though. Book snobs
0:22are kind of gatekeepers. They read heavy
0:23stuff. I like to read a little bit of
0:24everything. I'll read like a heavy novel
0:27and then follow it up with some trash.
0:29And I think it's totally okay to call
0:31books trash. Sometimes you want trash.
0:34Sometimes you want to eat at, you know,
0:36a great sushi restaurant, sometimes you
0:38want to eat at McDonald's, and that's
0:39okay. We're all foodies here.
0:45>> [music]
0:53>> And now I am joined by my new friend and
0:56co-host of the House of R podcast, the
1:00great, the wonderful Mallory Rubin.
1:03Mallory, thank you.
1:04>> Thrill of my life to be here. What an
1:05absolute privilege.
1:06>> You are the first Ringer staff member to
1:09be a guest on the show. You're like the
1:11canary in the coal mine.
1:12>> god, I can't believe I beat CR. Chris
1:14Ryan would have been the Vegas favorite.
1:17>> hearing about CR.
1:18>> Yeah.
1:18>> Like I've been at The Ringer for a month
1:20now and I keep comparing it to I think I
1:22talked to Joanna on your podcast about
1:25how it feels like I'm a kid at a new
1:26high school.
1:27>> Yes.
1:28>> And after a couple more weeks, I really
1:29feel like I'm a kid at a new high
1:31school.
1:31>> Yeah.
1:32>> But the high school is 90210.
1:34>> Mhm. They'll be absolutely delighted
1:36that that is the false impression that
1:38we've given you. Obviously, when you
1:39were on House of R with Joanna,
1:41uh it was filled with a, you know, a
1:42jealous rage. It was wonderful to watch
1:44and listen to you two talk about books
1:45together. And you know, you noted you
1:46noted that you think we're all cool. And
1:49we're not. We're big nerds. And that's
1:51part of why this is such a delight to be
1:52here to talk about
1:54the stories that we love because what
1:56better thing is there in the the than
1:57celebrating a fictional universe that
1:59brings you joy. Nothing. Nothing.
2:01>> Sure. Sure, but you are the coolest
2:03version of nerds.
2:05>> I'll accept that.
2:06>> You are like central casting nerds.
2:08>> yes.
2:08>> Everyone's got really nice skin.
2:10>> Uh
2:12check in at different times of the year,
2:14you know, across your your first stint
2:16here and get back to us, you know, when
2:17the the dry winds hit, like a Santa Ana
2:20period in LA, you know, check in with
2:23us, let us know. CR is cool.
2:24>> I I hear that.
2:25>> to love him. He's a special guy.
2:27Um I am just like absolutely over the
2:30moon that you're doing this show with
2:32us.
2:32>> Thank you.
2:32>> I think the show is awesome. I'm so
2:34thrilled that it's going to be weekly
2:36and just to participate in it at all is
2:38an absolute delight.
2:39>> I know you're a co-creator of the
2:41Ringer, if that is that is a term.
2:44>> Uh it's yeah.
2:46>> Founding founding member?
2:48>> Yeah, it was there with with Bill and
2:51been here since the word go.
2:52>> You think I'm going to love CR? Who do
2:53you think I'm going to hate?
2:54>> Mm.
2:55>> Cuz I love Joanna.
2:56>> Well, Joanna's the best. She's she's I
2:57mean, CR and Joe
2:59it's a high bar. Who who will you hate?
3:02Great question.
3:04Uh Sean Fennessey?
3:05>> Okay.
3:05>> Probably. Yeah, you know, you guys are
3:07going to he's also one of my dearest
3:10friends and closest colleagues in the
3:11world, brilliant guy. He's a a
3:13cinephile. He loves books, but you guys
3:15are going to you're going to have some
3:16conflict over the whole adaptation
3:18thing, you know, you've obviously spoken
3:20beautifully over the episodes about
3:23sometimes you're like, I I don't want to
3:24even know how the movie is. And so I
3:25think you and and Sean will come to
3:27blows on a podcast.
3:28>> I look forward to the conversation. I
3:30now I just divide everyone every movie
3:32person into are you pro digger or anti
3:34digger? And so we'll see where he falls
3:37on that.
3:37>> it, right?
3:38>> I loved it.
3:38>> I haven't seen it yet. I'm By the time
3:40this this podcast airs, hopefully I will
3:42have. I'm looking forward to it.
3:43>> Yeah.
3:44>> Yeah.
3:44>> But I am I'm thrilled you came on the
3:46show. I put out a challenge to the
3:48entire Ringer staff when I joined up and
3:50I said, "Listen, guys, uh if you want to
3:52challenge me with a book,
3:54>> Yeah.
3:54>> if you want to say, "Hey, you know,
3:56let's read this together,"
3:57>> Yeah.
3:57>> uh I will do that for you. You know, I
3:59don't I I want to talk negatively about
4:01a book I present to uh my Jesselnik Book
4:04Club members.
4:05>> I want to have positive vibes only. I'm
4:06trying to get people to read, but if
4:08like someone else brings me a book, then
4:11I can be like this is not for me and we
4:13can we can discuss it. And like no one
4:15really picked up that gauntlet. No one
4:16came to me and then I was like, "What
4:17about Dungeon Crawler Carl?"
4:18>> Mhm.
4:19>> Who would read Dungeon Crawler Carl by
4:22Matt Dinniman. I hope I'm saying that
4:23right. I Saying authors' names is the
4:26bane of having a book club. It's
4:29>> tough.
4:29>> It really is. This is interesting cuz so
4:31we have the same copy here, but you
4:34know, I read this on my Kindle. When I'm
4:36reading for work, I read on a Kindle so
4:39that I can highlight. I think this is a
4:40habit that we share. And the cover
4:43different. These like kind of comic
4:46book-esque covers on the Kindle edition.
4:48So, you know, one of the many indicators
4:51of the the vast undeniable popularity,
4:54multiple covers already.
4:55>> Yeah.
4:56>> Delighted to see Princess Donut here
4:58though.
4:59>> Yeah,
4:59they're different now?
5:01I mean, this is great. Oh, yeah, we got
5:03the same one.
5:03>> Wonderful.
5:04>> Yeah, they gave us many copies and we
5:05said we'd discuss it.
5:08But yeah, thank you again for being
5:09here. You It's a
5:11It's an honor. It's an honor to have you
5:12come in so early and just say, "Yeah,
5:15I'll be here." Like CR is like going to
5:17come on, but there's no date set.
5:19>> Yeah.
5:19>> Joanna would have me on her turf. And
5:21that was high water being on House of R.
5:23I was like, "Let me think of whatever
5:25sci-fi books I can give you."
5:27>> Great.
5:27>> And then I walk in and there's cloaks
5:29everywhere and I'm like, "What do I What
5:31have I read that someone's wearing a
5:32cloak?"
5:33>> Yeah.
5:33>> I recommended Edna by Paul Yoon
5:35>> Mhm.
5:35>> about a dog
5:36>> Yep.
5:37>> who comes back from war and she Joanna
5:39was like, "And what about that is
5:40fantasy?"
5:40>> Uh-huh.
5:41>> I was like, "It's a dog The main
5:42character's a dog."
5:44>> Yeah.
5:44>> Is that not enough?
5:45>> Uh it's I I think your list was
5:47wonderful.
5:48>> Thank you.
5:49>> Start to finish. I
5:51Three-Body Problem is is a part of my
5:53life already. I had not read. I love
5:55Emily St. John Mandel, but I had not
5:57read Exit Party, so I'm excited to check
5:58that out. And similarly like I love the
6:01Cerulean Sea books under the Whispering
6:02Door T.J. Klune, but I have not read We
6:04Burn So Bright. So, you came in, no
6:06surprise, like The Miz throwing 105 with
6:09the recommendations. The House of Our
6:11listeners, we call them the Bad Babies.
6:13It's a Grogu reference, Star Wars. So,
6:16I don't know if you'll you'll allow it,
6:17but uh
6:18>> allow it. I don't understand it.
6:19>> The bad Fair. Fair. The Bad Babies, um
6:24just the praise is not possible to
6:27contain for your appearance on House of
6:28R. They were delighted. They called it
6:30the crossover event of the century. I
6:31was already feeling very jealous and sad
6:33to have missed it, and that further
6:35fueled my my my FOMO. But, you know, it
6:38sounded like you and Joe left it in a
6:40kind of standing invite place, you know?
6:41>> I would come back anytime. Cuz I feel
6:43bad.
6:44I told her that I I've never read um
6:48We talked about adaptations. I've never
6:49read
6:50uh
6:52Lord of the Rings.
6:53>> No, the shocking thing
6:53>> judgement. And the look on her face, I
6:55was like, "Oh, I messed up. I crossed
6:56the line."
6:57>> No, you did say back-to-back
6:59I've watched Game of Thrones, but I've
7:02not read A Song of Ice and Fire.
7:04>> Yes.
7:04>> And I read The Hobbit, but not Lord of
7:06the Rings. And I would say those are our
7:07sacred texts.
7:08>> I read The Hobbit when I was a kid.
7:10>> Yeah, sure.
7:10>> And then The Lord of the Rings was too
7:12heavy for me at the time. But, I don't
7:14read The Lord of the Rings because the
7:16movie was like one of the greatest
7:18moviegoing experiences of my life. And
7:20so, I didn't want to mess with that. It
7:21was like the opposite. And
7:23>> 25 years.
7:23>> I was flustered. I know.
7:25>> can you believe it?
7:25>> I know. I can because it was like right
7:27when I moved to LA.
7:28>> Okay.
7:28>> a friend get me into a screening when it
7:30was coming out. So, I remember like all
7:31of the the bluster.
7:33>> Oh my god. Well, it's never too late.
7:34This is one of my
7:36uh
7:37mantras when it comes to reading.
7:39Anybody who is not interested in a
7:41thing, that's fine. They shouldn't be
7:42pressured into it. But like it's never
7:44too late to dip your toe into a
7:46fictional universe for the first time.
7:47This is something I genuinely believe.
7:48You know, podcasting, Joe and I on House
7:50of R, we cover nerd culture, right? So,
7:52we cover
7:53fantasy, sci-fi, comic universes, etc.
7:57And that is a vast, vast, vast universe.
7:59And it's something that we both love.
8:01So, we have a lot of genuine passion
8:03for, you know, many of the like seminal
8:04sacred texts already. But you
8:06definitionally can't have consumed it
8:07all, right? You you can't have consumed
8:09even a fraction of it. Um so, part of
8:11the joy always is new discovery, but
8:13like when something like um
8:16Wheel of Time hit Amazon a few years
8:19ago, I felt this real wave of anxiety
8:21that I had just not read those books,
8:23which to many fantasy fans are really
8:25like a sacred text. And I have just over
8:29the years doing House of R, doing Binge
8:31Mode here at The Ringer before that,
8:32decided to embrace like it's okay to say
8:34out loud I have not read this thing.
8:36Sometimes it's cuz I don't want to, and
8:37sometimes it's I haven't gotten to it
8:38yet. Sometimes that's true with a movie
8:40or TV. I'm watching like Joe, Buffy the
8:43Vampire Slayer's your favorite show. I'd
8:44never seen it. That's like a pretty
8:45important influential thing for the
8:47stuff that we cover. I turned 40 years
8:50old this year. I could just be like I
8:52missed it. It's too late. But I decided,
8:54is it? And it's been absolutely like
8:56fascinating to watch that through my,
8:59you know, increasingly washed, decrepit
9:01eyes instead of through the eyes of a
9:03contemporary and a peer in high school
9:04and college. So, you know, it's never
9:06too late to like try something for the
9:08first time. Maybe
9:10uh an A Song of Ice and Fire or Lord of
9:12the Rings recommendation will come up
9:14when we're talking today. We'll see.
9:15>> I'd be happy to. I love preaching. It's
9:17never too late to get Don't be
9:18intimidated by the number of books or
9:21how how big things are how old they are.
9:24I say like don't be afraid to admit you
9:25haven't read something.
9:27Yeah.
9:27>> It's totally okay. And don't be afraid
9:28to admit that you've forgotten something
9:30that you've read.
9:31>> It's impossible to retain everything.
9:32>> you're like, yeah, I can't tell you
9:33anything about Brothers Karamazov, but I
9:35loved it while I was reading it. Yeah.
9:37Are you ready for chapter one?
9:39>> I am.
9:39>> Let's get to chapter one.
9:43Okay, Mal.
9:44>> Yeah.
9:44>> It's weird calling you Mal now. I feel
9:46like we got to office so formal.
9:47>> there. We bonded so quickly.
9:49>> Now, I one of my I know about Dungeon
9:52Crawler Carl only because when I started
9:54like reviewing books and doing this book
9:56club, even in the lead-up to it, uh just
9:58I would talk about books so much, in the
10:00comments people would always say Dungeon
10:02Crawler Carl.
10:03>> Mhm.
10:03>> Please Dungeon Crawler Carl.
10:05>> Yeah.
10:05>> Was it similar for you having a like a
10:08fantasy podcast?
10:09>> Yes, it is something that the House of
10:11our listeners, viewers,
10:13uh have been really like
10:16imploring us to check out for some time
10:18now. We have an email inbox for the
10:21podcast, and there've been a lot of
10:23recommendations for Dungeon Crawler Carl
10:25for quite a while now. But, Joe and I
10:26have actually had the the pleasure a
10:28couple times this year to go out into
10:29the world and like interact We went to
10:31the San Diego Comic-Con. Uh we did a
10:33House of R event at Camden Yards. I'm
10:35from Baltimore, so we did an Orioles
10:36event, highlight of my life other than
10:38being here with you today. Those are the
10:39two highlights of my life, and they've
10:40both happened in a pretty like succinct
10:43span of time here, so I have nothing to
10:44look forward to after this.
10:45>> like you have a lot of highlights of
10:46your life and a lot of sacred texts.
10:48>> Uh you know, one of my dear friends,
10:51Dave,
10:52once in college, he said to me,
10:55"You're a buddy whore."
10:57I was like, "What do you mean?" He's
10:58like, "I thought it was special when you
10:59started to call me buddy, and then I
11:01realized that you say that to everyone."
11:02And I said, "I just have an open heart.
11:04I got a lot of love to give, and I'd
11:05like to receive some in turn. I don't
11:06know what to tell you, you know?"
11:07>> You think that when you call people
11:09buddy, they like that?
11:10>> Um this was, you know, a couple decades
11:13ago. Okay.
11:14But, I do still do it. I do still do it.
11:16I do I do pal a lot. I say buddy, I say
11:19pal.
11:20Uh
11:21What should I do instead? What Yeah,
11:22does this mean you don't want me to call
11:23you buddy? What should I call you?
11:25>> I can handle buddy. I didn't realize
11:26you'd been calling me buddy throughout
11:28this, [laughter]
11:29uh but that's that's okay.
11:31>> Yeah, just to when I'm talking to Dan,
11:32when I'm talking to
11:33uh Mags, you know, I'm saying like, "I
11:35can't wait to meet my buddy, Anthony, in
11:38person for the first time." And they
11:40they probably thought that was pretty
11:41weird.
11:41>> I think it's a thing you say when you
11:42don't know someone's name.
11:44Hey, buddy.
11:46>> I think you're right.
11:46>> Hey, champ.
11:47>> it is that. Champ, champ's a good one.
11:48Sport.
11:49>> Mhm.
11:49>> Hey, sport is a real like, you mean
11:51nothing to me, or you're my actual
11:53child, you know?
11:54>> going a little more like, "Hey, Tucker."
11:55You know, I just to give them a
11:56different name, and it sounds it's too
11:59too disarming. But, you found that fans
12:01were fans of yours were wanting you to
12:03read this.
12:04>> First of all, the cosplay was everywhere
12:05out in the world, right? The cosplay.
12:07People are dressing up like Carl,
12:09they're dressing up like Princess Donut.
12:11And that's one of the fun things about
12:12going to Comic-Con or going to these
12:14conventions is being able to like really
12:15feel on a palpable way when something
12:17has the it has animated the zeitgeist in
12:19a way that's undeniable, right? And
12:21there are all sorts of ways I think to
12:22measure that with Dungeon Crawler Carl,
12:23you know, you can talk about the
12:24statistics for the number of copies
12:26sold. It's like
12:2817 million, right? 140,
12:31150 million audiobook hours. Like it's
12:33astronomical, right? It's a sensation,
12:34genuinely a sensation.
12:37But when you feel what it means to
12:39people, for me that's always the most
12:41exciting thing. And it it manifests in a
12:43couple forms. It's when you feel that
12:45people have a connection to it and then
12:46they start to form a connection with
12:47each other because of the connection
12:49that each individual person has to the
12:50story. And that's just like a beautiful
12:52part of this. So, seeing people dressed
12:55up like the characters from the book and
12:56then they would just say like you guys
12:58really Have you read it yet? You guys
12:59have to read it. I am an animal lover. I
13:02am a cat enthusiast. And so, a lot of
13:05people specifically said to me like
13:07there's this character,
13:09Princess Donut, and she's going to
13:11become an important part of your life
13:12and you just need to meet her. You need
13:13to let her in. So, a lot of the pitching
13:14for me specifically was through the lens
13:16of of the cat, of Princess Donut being
13:18like the the co-lead, the
13:19co-protagonist.
13:20>> We've had a very different experience
13:21leading up to this book because a lot of
13:23my fans are straight-up [ __ ]
13:26>> Uh-huh.
13:26>> And I do not meet them in person. You
13:28know, if you if you see me, I will give
13:30you my time, say hello, take pictures,
13:32but I I'm I stay out of the limelight.
13:34You you won't catch me at Comic-Con or
13:36at conventions. And so, I would just see
13:38it in online comments sometimes. And I
13:41was like, "Oh, I didn't know what this
13:42is." And it comes from video game
13:44culture and I don't play video games
13:45either.
13:46>> Right.
13:47>> But I think of it as a I feel like when
13:50I hear about video games, it's usually
13:51something toxic.
13:53It's usually something like
13:55a lot of misogyny, a lot of
13:59like in your space, in the fantasy
14:00space, it's strange because I think
14:02these progressive stories.
14:03>> Sure.
14:04>> But when I hear about it, it's like Star
14:05Wars cast a black person and everyone's
14:07mad. You know, it's like this like the
14:09fan bases can be intolerant. That I
14:12didn't I didn't know what this was. I
14:14didn't have people coming up to me like,
14:15you've got to read it, but I was in a
14:16Barnes & Noble and they had like a rack
14:18of Dungeon Crawler Carl and there were
14:19two employees on either side of it
14:22asking everyone who walked in, "Do you
14:24have any questions about Dungeon Crawler
14:25Carl?" And I was like, "Oh, this seems
14:27like it might be more fun
14:29than bad, but I expected
14:31almost like a hate screed. Maybe it's
14:33just like from being in comedy and being
14:36I thought it was going to be a um
14:39I thought it was going to be more of a
14:40like incel like a like a like a fun
14:42novel for incels. I don't know why. I
14:45just didn't do any research and then
14:48found that after, you know, years of
14:50doing the book club or doing book stuff
14:52people kept like asking me to read it,
14:54but they were nice.
14:56They were polite. No one was ever like,
14:57"Hey, [ __ ] read Dungeon Crawler
14:58Carl." It was like, "You got to read
15:00it." Then I was like, "Oh, maybe I'm
15:02wrong. Let's see."
15:05But yeah, that's funny. We had totally
15:06different experiences with the fans.
15:07>> So, I would say like
15:10what you are identifying is definitely
15:12an undeniable part of fandom culture
15:14more broadly, right? And I think that if
15:17um
15:19it it it it does not surprise me that
15:20there are certainly people in the world
15:22who think that that is like an out has
15:23an outsized portion of the discussion in
15:25gaming culture or nerd culture more
15:27broadly because some of those things
15:29really are just horrific, right? And
15:31they uh
15:32they spark conversation that becomes
15:35like
15:36generates headlines, narratives, right?
15:38But I think like anything else it is a
15:40part of a larger whole and whether it is
15:43um
15:44gaming culture or like the lit RPG
15:46movement specifically and that part of
15:47this is was was new to me. This is the
15:49first book I've read that is part of the
15:51uh role-playing game like lit RPG trend,
15:55this boom that has like animated a new
15:58uh slice and subgenre of the the the
16:01publishing industry. I think there are
16:03tons and tons and tons of gamers who
16:08find a connection on the other side of
16:09that internet internet connection,
16:11right? They boot up their headphone and
16:12their controller and they find a friend.
16:14They find some sort of escape that
16:17brings them comfort when they're having
16:18a hard day. So, like anything else, like
16:20there's the good and the bad. And one of
16:22the things that I loved about, you know,
16:24I will I will say this, I think
16:25certainly in this
16:27one of the, you know, missions of your
16:28pod is like get dudes to read, right?
16:30So, certainly a lot of the people who
16:32recommended the book to me were were
16:34dudes, but not everyone. Like plenty of
16:36the people who came up to us in person
16:38said you got to check this out were
16:39women. And
16:42I think that it just feels like a
16:46slice of the fandom is a a gaming
16:49passionate gaming fandom, but not
16:51everybody, right? I think that there's
16:52like a desire to just fall into a world.
16:55And the fact that there are eight books
16:56already, 10 intended, the series is
16:58going to conclude next year, and they've
17:00all come out in such rapid succession,
17:02like in the last handful of years, half
17:04a decade,
17:06it heightens. There's like a kind of
17:08exponential
17:09accelerant to that, right? I discovered
17:12something, someone recommended it to me,
17:13I checked it out, it wasn't exactly what
17:15I thought it was going to be. I thought
17:17it might be this, I thought it might
17:18have a certain tone or energy.
17:21Uh and then there's like a joyful,
17:23surprising, kind of sweetness to it, and
17:25a real propul- propulsion to the the
17:27plot. And if you have the desire to
17:30continue from there,
17:32then you have thousands and thousands of
17:34pages waiting for you. So, it could
17:36become so quickly this massive part of
17:39your life in a way that then leads to
17:40this deepening of the engagement and the
17:42the passion for it. So, it's a really
17:44cool phenomenon to kind of watch spring
17:46into life in real time.
17:47>> Beautifully said, and leads us perfectly
17:49into chapter two.
17:54What were your expectations and or
17:56fears? I feel like you had you knew more
17:59going in than I did. I I had no idea,
18:02and I definitely had expectations and
18:03fears, and I think we're going to be
18:05different experiences here.
18:06>> I I didn't know a ton about it. I knew
18:09that the main character was Carl. I knew
18:11that the second lead, or really the main
18:13character, was a cat named Princess
18:15Donut. And I knew that the story had a
18:19video game corollary, both in terms of
18:22like if you like video games you'll
18:23probably enjoy the structure and
18:26framework of this but also that the plot
18:29itself had a had a game like quality,
18:31right? But I didn't really know anything
18:33beyond that. I didn't know the nature of
18:36the dystopian apocalyptic event inciting
18:39incident. I didn't honestly even really
18:42know like what the dungeon crawler title
18:46referred to.
18:47>> it was a sex thing for a while.
18:49>> It still could be. We have We've only
18:50read one book. We have seven to go.
18:52>> I immediately went S&M like when the
18:54when the first time I'm seeing just the
18:55comment just like a lot of people that
18:56are like oh it's a comedy. It's like
18:58this is a funny thing. I thought sex
19:01right away and then figured out you know
19:02from seeing the cover and stuff it was
19:04more of a video game type thing.
19:05>> So we know that you know in terms of
19:07private spaces like there are safe
19:09spaces like the safe room, right?
19:10Private spaces if you don't want them to
19:12see or hear a bathroom. Is that the only
19:14place people can [ __ ] The bathroom? Is
19:16that your takeaway? So I've been
19:18thinking about this a lot since reading
19:19this book. Otherwise you're a porn star
19:21because they're streaming everything.
19:23This didn't this
19:23>> You've been thinking about that a lot?
19:25>> Yes. Cons- constantly. Because you know,
19:29I think it's a story that invites that
19:31level of interrogation and intellectual
19:32rigor.
19:33>> See I know once I got into the book I
19:36like no one's having sex in this book.
19:38No. No one ever. Because I This is a
19:41fascinating thing on like a show like
19:42Big Brother or Survivor. On Big Brother
19:45people have sex because they're safe in
19:47a house. On Survivor or like Naked and
19:50Afraid you're like fighting for your
19:51life so those cast members never sleep
19:53together. But on a show like obviously
19:55Love Island or whatever I which I've
19:57never seen but Big Brother
19:59people want to people want to sleep
20:00together because they have all their
20:01needs met. So in the in the apocalypse
20:03no one's getting laid.
20:04>> I just think that
20:07when the dungeon could collapse on you
20:08at any second or the next grub, rat,
20:12boss,
20:13ball of swine, whatever the case may be
20:17is waiting around the bend.
20:19Rage elemental from level 93, you know,
20:23propelled up to floor two just to [ __ ]
20:25with you.
20:27Get it your kicks in while you can.
20:30>> Wow, you really you really know your
20:32game.
20:32>> Uh
20:33>> ball as they say.
20:35>> Thank you. Thank you.
20:36>> I cuz you're saying this and I'm like,
20:38oh yeah, I kind of remember that. Like I
20:39read it you finished it last night. I
20:41finished it a couple of weeks ago. Um I
20:45think I was more hesitant to get into
20:47this book and I thought I would not like
20:48it.
20:49>> Okay.
20:49>> I was like I need to find positive
20:51things to say.
20:53And that leads us into
20:55chapter three.
20:56Tell me the highs and lows of your
20:57reading experience. Like I assume you
20:59like the book.
21:00>> I did. I really I enjoyed it. Yeah, I
21:02thought it was really fun. It had um you
21:04know, again structurally in terms of the
21:05craft, I think it was the pacing was
21:08really strong, right? So, it was easy to
21:10just
21:11all of a sudden realize you're 25% in,
21:13you're halfway through. It moves really
21:16quickly and you know, this book is uh
21:19400 and and change pages as I understand
21:22it, the later installments get into the
21:23700
21:25>> Really?
21:25>> page mark. So, they're
21:27you know, they're they're girthy.
21:28They're chunky.
21:30But they move. They move with a
21:33quickness. So, that's the first thing.
21:35>> And it starts like right away. Like he
21:37doesn't mess around at all. It's like
21:39let's get to this and I I think a
21:41perfect a perfect beginning.
21:43>> Yeah, you don't even have an opportunity
21:45to to wonder if you're going to like it
21:47before it has begun. And that was
21:49actually something I had heard from
21:50people as well. Like you I had a number
21:52say to me, you'll know by chapter three
21:53if you're in or out and I think that's
21:55true. You really understand right away
21:57what the book is, how it's going to
21:58function, what the tone is. Obviously,
22:00there's like a deepening of the
22:02character set and you know, you there's
22:04an unfurling of of the rules of the
22:06universe, right? This is always one of
22:07my things about like a fantasy or a
22:09sci-fi story. Uh the the rules of the
22:12universe can be whatever the creator of
22:15that world wants to be. They just need
22:16to be specific and consistent inside of
22:19the world once it's crafted. And I
22:21thought that that was I would say I will
22:24put that in both buckets of like the
22:25highlight and lowlight for me because I
22:27thought that it was well explained and
22:29well defined. You know how the levels
22:31were going to work and
22:33the points were going to be gained and
22:35and the loot boxes and things of that
22:36nature. I found myself having a little
22:39bit of a
22:41how much of this do I need to be
22:42retaining? Like what is in Carl's
22:44inventory? What is in Donut's inventory?
22:47Because I do think this is another
22:48compliment now.
22:51Much of what was established came back
22:53into play, right? And some of the things
22:55are still kind of like lying in wait
22:57lurking and I feel pretty confident
22:58they'll come into play in the second or
23:00third installment. All of this talk
23:01about the ninth floor. I feel confident
23:03enough already one book book in to know
23:05that like
23:06that build up will be rewarded. Um
23:09mostly I just found the blend of humor
23:11and heart to be like
23:12quite winning. And to your point about
23:14your concern, maybe the the uh the false
23:18sense of like is this a book for for
23:20incels?
23:21Um
23:22It's almost like the incel antidote, you
23:24know?
23:24>> I totally and I think in the beginning
23:26like the first chapter when he's talking
23:27about his ex cheating on him,
23:30>> [laughter]
23:30>> he doesn't like go he doesn't like call
23:32her a [ __ ] You know, things like an
23:33incel would do that I was like, "Okay,
23:35he's like nicer." He again he like he
23:37has to save the cat moment literally
23:40right away.
23:41>> Yes.
23:41>> You it makes you like him in a way that
23:43I'm like, "Oh, I don't want I don't want
23:44to follow someone who was an [ __ ]
23:45basically."
23:46>> yeah, yeah.
23:46>> And then like a chapter later, he
23:49references incels. Like he I'm like,
23:52"Oh, they exist in real life and he
23:54looks down on them. So therefore this
23:56can't be an incel novel." And then I
23:58like relaxed and was like, "Okay, let's
24:00go with this." But I did I I didn't
24:03think it was funny.
24:04>> Okay.
24:05>> The only thing I laughed at the fact the
24:07fact that he got me at this like you I
24:09don't think I laughed out loud but like
24:10was like, "Okay, like I'm I get why this
24:12is a comedy."
24:13>> Yes.
24:13>> Is the goddammit Donut
24:15>> Yeah.
24:15>> thing. Like as that went on
24:17>> Yeah, it's good.
24:17>> I was like, "Okay, I'm enjoying this."
24:19But whenever it was like the announcer
24:20would say
24:21>> Yeah.
24:22>> you know, this kind of I that wasn't my
24:24thing.
24:24>> Okay.
24:25>> more of that. But I thought it was like
24:27if you don't like it it didn't bother me
24:29>> Yeah. it, but I wasn't like, oh, this is
24:31the funniest thing. I could see the
24:32audiobook being more
24:35like that being a laugh out loud thing.
24:38And I don't think like for for certain
24:39books like if you've read Jack Handey's
24:41The Stench of Honolulu?
24:43>> No.
24:43>> It is a amazing book like Jack Handey of
24:45Deep Thoughts fame. He wrote a novel
24:47that's basically like one deep thought
24:49after another but with like a plot.
24:50>> Okay.
24:51>> like every sentence is a joke. And you
24:53read it and it's great. Like every
24:54sentence is like a masterclass in joke
24:56writing. But if you get the audiobook,
24:58it's Jack Handey reading it and it
25:00sounds like he's just doing deep
25:01thoughts for like hours and it's
25:02incredible. Like I laugh out loud
25:03listening to it more than the book that
25:05I know that's possible. So I could see
25:07that doing a lot of the heavy lifting
25:09humor-wise.
25:11But I found myself enjoying it more than
25:13I thought I would. Like the video game
25:15moments, the big boss fights, I was a
25:17little like, okay, but he sped through
25:19them.
25:20The moments of heart like I like I was
25:23surprised at how much I
25:25like liked the old people. That he was
25:27like, I'm going to stick around and I'm
25:29like, of course you're going to, you
25:31know, help these people and stay there.
25:33>> Yeah.
25:33>> Um his interaction with Maestro, if I'm
25:36saying that right, on the on the talk
25:38show, I liked that. Like he's just like,
25:39I'm going to be a good guy in this
25:41horrible circumstance. When he would be
25:43upset every time the number went down.
25:44>> Mhm.
25:45>> You know, if like 13 million, I was
25:46like, okay, like I I'm surprised I like
25:48this about the book, but I do. The only
25:51thing I would even knock it for because
25:52I'm like, this is good writing. Like
25:54really I good this is great writing
25:55because it's easy to read and that is
25:57hard to do.
25:59>> Yeah.
25:59>> The I was almost looking for him to
26:02leave a corner hanging on a card. The
26:03only thing I would knock him for and
26:05like that I would say if I'm looking to
26:07nitpick this book.
26:09>> Character descriptions.
26:11>> Yeah.
26:11>> When he's like, Mordecai looked like a
26:13Master Splinter from Teenage Mutant
26:15Ninja Turtles, I'm like, that's not
26:16allowed.
26:17>> Yeah.
26:17>> Like you you've got to do a little
26:19[laughter] more work. I know it's like
26:20video game fans, pop culture fans. Like
26:23I never read Ready Player One, but I
26:24assume it's a lot of
26:25>> Yeah.
26:26>> that what I like to call bazinga
26:27[ __ ] But this was for someone who
26:30doesn't tolerate bazinga [ __ ] I
26:31didn't find that much of it here.
26:33>> Yeah. That it was more original. It felt
26:35like kind of video game-ish. But I think
26:37even as someone who doesn't play video
26:38games, I still enjoyed it.
26:41>> Yeah, that's interesting. I I think on
26:43the character, the other characters in
26:45the description front, I would say that
26:47was also something that like not even
26:49that I found myself longing for in real
26:51time as I was reading, but now that I
26:53finish and I'm thinking about the book
26:55and you know, I'm I am I do plan to
26:57continue on. I am eager to learn more
27:01things about the characters. And this is
27:03like one of the
27:05delicate aspects of the calculus of a
27:07dystopian tale, right? Is there's an
27:09urgency. There's urgent peril every
27:11minute. And so frankly some of the times
27:14when something would happen and Carl
27:15would find himself thinking back
27:18yet again about his mom or his dad, I'm
27:21like, I would like to know more things
27:24about this person than that he has like
27:26a fractured relationship with his
27:28parents. He likes to watch girl on girl
27:30porn, though iconic insight from Donut
27:33there when she's like, but you always
27:34are on your iPad watching those two
27:36ladies clean each other cuz you know,
27:38cats lick themselves to clean. Just
27:40great stuff. Very creative. Wonderful.
27:43>> Donut was that maybe the funniest part
27:44of the book to me. Who do you like more,
27:47Donut or Lion Cat?
27:49>> Oh, I love Lion Cat. I'm a big saga fan.
27:51So I but you know,
27:53what an interesting question.
27:54>> compare Princess Donut to in terms of
27:58icons of the fantasy world, cats.
28:00>> Donut to me has
28:04there's a
28:06more of a similarity to Lion Cat in
28:07terms of the energy right away. You
28:10know, Donut is presented to us like with
28:12a a real
28:13you know, and as I understand it the the
28:15author is a a cat lover. So I hope
28:17hope he'll forgive this characterization
28:19cuz this obviously wasn't the intent,
28:20but it's like every now and then and I
28:22love all animals to be clear. I love
28:23dogs. I love all animals.
28:25>> Okay.
28:26>> A characterization of a cat presented by
28:29big dog.
28:30You know, cats are sassy [ __ ]
28:32They're withholding. They think they're
28:34hot [ __ ] And that is not my experience
28:37with cats. I think that the love of a of
28:39a cat is the purest love known to man.
28:42>> [snorts]
28:42>> And so it was very rewarding to me to
28:43watch Donut open up. And you know, you
28:45get to the point where she's like,
28:46"Carl, I lied. I lied when I said I
28:49didn't need you. Like if you left me, I
28:51would be devastated."
28:53I felt that.
28:54It was really rewarding and wonderful.
28:56It was great.
28:56>> But you think it's big dog making behind
28:59one of like the major cat characters
29:02since Master and Margarita to hit the
29:04scene.
29:05That's I mean a truly insane take. I
29:07like that you will say like really
29:09thoughtful, like interesting things and
29:11then come out of nowhere with a haymaker
29:14of
29:15epic proportions.
29:16>> Yeah, and then I'm like, "If you jerk
29:17off with the gauntlet on, does your dick
29:19actually explode?" You know, because
29:21there was that one line.
29:22The warning in big in red, you know,
29:24bigger, redder, like, "Don't wear this
29:26while you jerk off."
29:27>> of the part like the the locker room
29:29humor, like I didn't internalize it the
29:32way that you did.
29:33>> Uh I no encoding failures for me on that
29:35front, you know. Absorbed it all.
29:37>> It felt like it was almost those parts
29:38were narrated by like, you know, like
29:40the the fat kid at camp who was always
29:43making
29:44making jokes about skid marks. Like I
29:46heard that voice and was like how did it
29:49in the background didn't like annoy me
29:51but didn't I wasn't tuning any of that.
29:53>> Dick jokes and bathroom humor
29:55both big parts of my life. On the on
29:57that humor front, I'm really interested
29:58I was I was eager to hear your take. So
29:59I'm interested to hear you say that that
30:00part of it uh it didn't really work for
30:03like the notification voice didn't
30:04really work for you. I mean
30:06I found that that humor grew on me. It
30:12rather than it feeling stale and tired,
30:14the the more I was exposed to it, the
30:17more I found myself chuckling at the
30:20jokes even though they were you know,
30:21fairly obvious. I did find it kind of um
30:24kind of funny, but I'm not a
30:25professional comedian and you are. So I
30:27frankly don't think my opinion
30:28>> it's hard for me to sit here and laugh
30:29out loud at a book. And rarely am I
30:32reading something that's supposed to be
30:33funny. It just felt like reading the
30:34script for like Deadpool 3.
30:36To me. And like and that's not a knock.
30:38It's just like I mean like I got I get
30:40it. And I wasn't again I wasn't annoyed
30:42by it.
30:43>> Right.
30:43>> Which is a high bar. But I never I never
30:45really laughed out loud at anything
30:47outside of
30:49Carl and Princess Donut's relationship.
30:51That made me laugh. And I also I enjoyed
30:54I think one of the darker relationships
30:56is the
30:58the two the two cops he runs into. Like
31:00the husband and wife.
31:01>> Frank and Maggie.
31:01>> And Frank and Maggie. Yeah. But it's
31:03like this weird thing that I was like
31:04okay when that happened I was like okay
31:06this is adult. Carl knows they're about
31:08to get ambushed. I like that he's aware
31:10in the situation and gets out of it. And
31:12then Carl and Maggie's story as it goes
31:14on I'm like this is batshit.
31:16>> Yeah.
31:17>> I It was like one of the few stories
31:18that I really wanted to continue and
31:20find out where that goes. Cuz like this
31:22book
31:23I I never pick up a book one.
31:26You know what I mean? Like I thought
31:27this was going to be like Dungeon
31:29Crawler Carl and then like it was so
31:30successful that he made a sequel.
31:32>> Mhm.
31:33>> Not like it's this is definitely going
31:34to be like a 10 book series from the
31:36jump. I should have known.
31:38Uh but I rarely pick up a book one
31:39knowing I'm going to have all this
31:40homework.
31:40>> Yeah.
31:41>> But towards the end of it once I
31:42realized like oh they're only get down
31:44like three levels or whatever in this
31:45book. They really start to set up almost
31:47like the like a
31:48how this a season finale for a 10
31:50episode season is like episode nine's
31:53where all the stuff happens. And 10 is
31:55kind of table setting for the next
31:57season.
31:58>> forward.
31:58>> That I was like okay like let me just
32:00kind of get through this and see if I'm
32:01going to want
32:03to read book two. That was like my test
32:06for this. Was would I want to read this?
32:08And I enjoyed reading this
32:10way more than I thought I would. And I
32:12read it like in between kind of
32:14doorstops. You know, in between heavy
32:16things I have to read or like to read
32:18for this show. But it's nice to pick up
32:21something like this and just kind of
32:22just let your eyes fall over it.
32:24>> Yeah. I mean I think for me like one of
32:26the great joys of reading kind of full
32:28stop is variance, right? You know, I one
32:32of the conundrums that I always have is
32:35and it's I feel this especially as I as
32:37I age and enter like a real like
32:38existential crisis phase of my life, you
32:40know, confronting my imminent uh doom,
32:44I love to reread and rewatch things.
32:47I
32:48never tire of revisiting a story that
32:51means something to me. I always feel
32:52like I can find something new.
32:54But now I am always like measuring the
32:57trade-off, you know? If I reread series
33:00X for the 90th time, and sometimes I I
33:02do that for work, right? Because like I
33:04think Joanna and I both feel a um
33:08you know, a certain level of like a
33:10healthy pressure, I would say, to stay
33:12like really on top of our [ __ ] in the
33:14fictional universes that we're supposed
33:15to have a level of expertise in, right?
33:17So, we are always rereading A Song of
33:20Ice and Fire when it's time to cover a
33:21Game of Thrones show, for example. And I
33:23love that, but I'm like, how many
33:25opportunities do I have to read
33:26something for the first time? And so, I
33:27try to find that balance, and I try to I
33:29try to blend genre, you know, I read a
33:32lot of of fantasy and sci-fi, like I
33:33said, but I read all sorts of other
33:36books as well. Something I'm really
33:38trying to do lately is like
33:41dip back into the classics. Just because
33:44I'm not in high school or college
33:45anymore taking lit classes does not mean
33:47that it's too late to finally read
33:49Middlemarch, you know what I mean?
33:50>> something about the classics, they hold
33:51up.
33:52>> Yeah.
33:52>> You know, whenever I go back and read
33:54like like a Nabokov I read Pale Fire a
33:57couple years ago. And I've been doing a
33:59thing where I I keep up with like what's
34:00coming out week to week.
34:01>> Yeah. Yes.
34:02>> So, I'm always like, okay, I got to get
34:03this done before the next one to have
34:04like I just take pride in my top 10 list
34:07>> Yeah.
34:07>> at the end of the year. But like I have
34:092 years ago I read Pale Fire by Nabokov,
34:11and I was like, nothing I've read since
34:12has been as good as that.
34:13>> Right.
34:14>> You know, but it's like, how do you It's
34:16it's rare that I'll reread something,
34:17but for the book club, my picks, it's
34:19something I've read before once and
34:20loved, and rereading the second time,
34:22having to explain it to people, like
34:24having to kind of get it down is a
34:26enriching experience
34:27>> Yes.
34:27>> that I enjoy, but a lot of times I won't
34:29want to read something twice or see a
34:31movie twice.
34:32>> Why?
34:32>> get older, I don't want to see movies
34:34twice.
34:34>> Why?
34:35>> Like because I love the experience of
34:37being in the theater
34:38and like loving it, that I know it can
34:40only be diminished. I think now with
34:43streaming and with on demand that you
34:44people just watch things over and over
34:46again that they lose all value.
34:48>> Yeah.
34:48>> That I like it like one battle after
34:50another. I loved
34:52>> Incredible. Yeah.
34:53>> And I was like, I'm going to leave it
34:54that there. So when I think about the
34:55movie,
34:57I'm like full of joy. Well, if I watch
34:59it again, I think it would just be
35:00diminished in some way.
35:01>> Let me ask you a a follow-up question.
35:03If you go to a restaurant you love, you
35:04have an incredible meal. You're thinking
35:06about the meal. Is your impulse I can't
35:08wait to have that meal again? Or I'd
35:11like to go back to the restaurant, but
35:12I'll definitely order something
35:13different because it couldn't possibly
35:15Does that extend to other areas of your
35:16life? Or is it specific to consuming
35:18some sort of fictional text?
35:19>> It's more fictional. Like a rest The
35:21restaurant metaphor I'll run with. But
35:23like I would I get I have my favorite
35:25restaurants and I want I'm happy to go
35:26back and get the same dish. And
35:28eventually I'm like, I never want to go
35:29here again. You know, maybe I'll come
35:31back like later on. With music, I'm like
35:33that. I'm listening to the song over and
35:34over and then like I'm done with it
35:36forever. Um but I just I'll like be
35:39blown away reading something or watch
35:41experiencing something for the first
35:42time.
35:43>> Right.
35:43>> TV, I don't feel that way. TV, I'll
35:45watch an episode of something twice. And
35:48Lanterns, yeah.
35:50Enjoy it. Did you think they stuck the
35:51landing?
35:51>> I did. I did. I I needed it to be an
35:54emotional and thematically resonant
35:56finale, not a punch them out CGI fest.
35:59And and that's what, you know, we got
36:00the the thing that we needed.
36:01>> Agreed. Agreed.
36:03>> you, Junior. I love I love you. I love
36:05you, too, Junior. I was [ __ ] weeping.
36:07>> Yeah. I mean, I wasn't not weeping, but
36:09I loved it and I I think I hope they
36:11leave it there.
36:12>> Really? See, I'm a glutton. I I want
36:14more. I want more. I need them to go
36:16back.
36:17>> I think it was the perfect
36:19perfect wrap-up.
36:20>> It was very contained. So, okay, so like
36:22a book like like Dungeon Crawler Carl
36:23then, in terms of the reread.
36:25And something like a highlight where I
36:27we both agree, you know, Frank and
36:28Maggie, that was really great. It was
36:30absolutely I thought chilling to get the
36:33the daughter reveal. Right? Evette. That
36:36was
36:38>> I mean, it was it kind of made me laugh
36:39in a way of like that manipulative It
36:42was like a fridging of like we have this
36:44the daughter and they're showing the the
36:45feed in a way like the highlight feed in
36:47a way that you know it's being
36:48manipulated you're like you know that I
36:50don't know if they end up being good
36:51guys at the end like
36:53>> Yeah, right. Sure.
36:54>> Frank is not saying anything in a way
36:55that's like oh you I bet they end up on
36:57the same side like there's a certain
36:59tropes that I see coming there.
37:02>> So in terms of the emotional
37:03manipulation of the reveal at the reason
37:05that it worked for me is because there's
37:07a meta aspect for us as readers where
37:10that is the intended experience for
37:12Carl, right? He's supposed to be
37:15horrified and blindsided and
37:17>> [snorts]
37:17>> completely undone by having to confront
37:20the the culpability of his hand in this
37:22death. And you know like you were saying
37:25earlier I really agree that one of the
37:26the cool things about the surprising and
37:28cool things about Carl as a character is
37:30he's like [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] bullies,
37:33right? Like I do feel actually like I
37:36need to not only stay and help the old
37:39people but after the Bengals fan whips
37:41out his dick and pisses on the wall and
37:43they have to fight that the the rage
37:45elemental from level who's a level 93?
37:49He's like I will stay and do that for
37:51you to help you even though I have a
37:53reminder after reminder of how this is
37:55going to undo me. So you know part of
37:57what can be really I think there's this
37:58like question always of why do people
38:00seek out dystopian tales when they are
38:02inherently to a degree depressing and
38:04deflating and I think there are a lot of
38:06different answers and reasons and
38:07mileage may vary person to person but
38:09one of the reasons is because there's
38:11something like really affirming and
38:12heartening about seeing people find the
38:15capacity to persevere under trying
38:16circumstances, right? And so Carl
38:19does that for himself for Donut but also
38:21for other people. To your like will
38:23Frank end up being a good guy question,
38:26that's one of the things already even
38:27though there are only a couple scenes
38:28with Frank and Maggie where I'm excited
38:30to see where it goes for the first time
38:32but then to revisit those exchanges and
38:35look for the breadcrumbs that were
38:36there. Now I don't know enough about
38:38Matt Dinniman as an an author to know
38:41which bucket he falls into. Is he a I
38:43map out my entire story and I know from
38:47minute one where every character arc is
38:49going, where every storyline is going,
38:50or is he a
38:52the Tolkienian like a gardener, a George
38:54R.R. Martin gardener, I see and I I tend
38:57my garden and I see where it goes and
38:58maybe I'll be able to finish my story
39:00and you know, maybe I won't, I don't
39:01know. But
39:03>> I would think I would guess the latter.
39:05>> Yeah.
39:05>> Maybe he stretched it out a little bit
39:06to 10 books rather than like three or or
39:08four.
39:09>> Yeah.
39:09>> Um I'd love to I would be interested to
39:11hear his like
39:13origin process for this whole thing.
39:16>> it first, which is interesting.
39:17>> ballsy enough to be like this is book
39:18one of 10 is crazy. I also really like
39:21the anti-corporate
39:23screeds in this. Like I'm I don't think
39:25there's enough of that like if if kids
39:27are reading or young people are reading
39:28a book, I want there to be some
39:30anti-corporate bias in there. Uh
39:32>> For sure.
39:33>> you.
39:33>> Well, and so there's like um on that
39:35front, you know, we have the Syndicate,
39:37right? We have the Borent Corporation,
39:39we have the idea of the Bloom, this uh
39:41totalitarian nationalistic fascist
39:44regime. This this enough of a glimpse
39:47early to understand that there will be I
39:48think like a wider constellation of um
39:51people who are competing for power on a
39:53galactic scale. But then there were
39:55little
39:57little glimpses in book one that did
39:59really make me like Agatha was an
40:01interesting example of this. She's the
40:04um initially part of the the Meadowlark
40:07group. She's the with the shopping cart,
40:10right? Gets very upset when Carl picks
40:12up the shopping cart and you're like,
40:13okay, what exactly exactly is that
40:15because this is her her whole sense of
40:17of self comes from clutching that thing
40:19and then we realize when Carl sees his
40:20inventory that there's a connection to
40:23this other corporation, the items in
40:25there. And it's like, okay, I was
40:26suspicious of her pretty early, but that
40:29really heightens that Is she working for
40:31them? Is she a plant?
40:32>> Agatha for me was like seeing a famous
40:34person in like a too minor a role in
40:36like a in a story to be like they're
40:38going to end up being someone way more
40:39important than they are. That I was like
40:41this is like Carl has plot armor. Like
40:43no one, you know, Princess Donut has
40:45plot armor. That I was wondering as I
40:47was reading it like is this going to
40:49hold up
40:50over the rest of the series? And I
40:51didn't know it was 10 books before you
40:53told me just now. I thought it was like
40:55three or four or something.
40:56>> Eight out already, two more to come,
40:57man.
40:58>> Then I'm like, is this going to hold up?
40:59I doubt it. And then I heard from Miss
41:00Kim,
41:01>> Mhm.
41:01>> uh my assistant today that her friends
41:03have read it, and they say that it gets
41:06almost better
41:07>> Oh.
41:07>> as it goes on, that it gets like deeper,
41:08more thoughtful.
41:09>> Well, that's exciting.
41:10>> like, oh, that's that's very
41:11interesting. I haven't heard reviews of
41:14the new ones. I just know when they when
41:15they drop because they're in the New
41:17York Times bestseller list or they I see
41:19ads for them.
41:20>> That, without knowing any of the
41:23particulars of why people think they get
41:24better, it gives me hope because it
41:26makes me think that, you know, this is
41:29also always, and I I love genre
41:30storytelling, but this is also a balance
41:32of how much is going to be like
41:34fantastic, right? And how much is going
41:36to be rooted in some sort of human
41:37experience. And you know, it's fun,
41:40definitely, to come across all of the
41:42different
41:44amalgamations and hybrid creations and
41:46to have Carl think about like, why are
41:49they crafting these creatures to to
41:52function in this way? And what sort of
41:53commentary is supposed to be on display
41:55here about Earth and human life? And
41:57then there's kind of I thought, you
41:58know, pulls on the heartstrings a little
42:00bit moments where they either there's
42:03some sort of enchantment used or biscuit
42:04or just through the course of battle, a
42:06little bit of the veil, the fog of the
42:09hold of the corporate entities is
42:11removed and they and Carl realizes that
42:13the legion of
42:15dead littered across the dungeon. He's
42:17like, they didn't want to be here either
42:20and they have some sort of life and this
42:21is tragic kind of for everyone, but I've
42:23got to plow my way forward. You know,
42:25there's a tension there that I think is
42:26compelling. At the end of the day, the
42:28most interesting uh moments are going to
42:30be the ones where Carl is either
42:32thinking about the humanity that the
42:33creatures possess or engaging with other
42:35people. And I I hope that that ratchets
42:38up a bit, whether that's Frank and and
42:40Maggie as the kind of the looming
42:42spectrum of running into them and they
42:44have this this new power, right? Like
42:46that they can just put in Carl's name
42:48and Donut's name and hunt them down. So,
42:50there was a part of me
42:53that wondered if that would be kind of
42:54the final showdown of this book,
42:56actually.
42:57>> Mhm.
42:58>> But, I was happy that that wasn't the
42:59case, because I like the idea of
43:00continuing to tease out
43:03them as an opposing force, and then
43:05maybe there's like a little surprise
43:06there, like you said.
43:07>> I would get bored here and there, like
43:09you would playing a video game or
43:10watching someone play video game. It's
43:12what kind of what it felt like to me.
43:13>> Yeah. Because of the repetitious nature
43:15of the
43:16>> Yeah.
43:18Yeah. Like the the fights, and I'm not
43:19I'm not really worried they're going to
43:22get hurt in a fight. I'm kind of like
43:23when they're picking their pet to move
43:25forward with, and they pick the um the
43:27Velociraptor, I'm not like I wonder, you
43:30know, you know they're going to pick the
43:30most entertaining option that they have
43:33that I was just like I like I watching
43:35someone play video game. I was along for
43:36the ride, and it's a well-done video
43:38game. I'm not in control of anything,
43:40but I was surprised that I liked
43:42watching the video game, but I was still
43:44watching a video game.
43:45>> Yeah. Are you a Do you game at all?
43:46>> No.
43:47>> Ever? Never?
43:47>> No. Not since Tetris. Like not since
43:49Nintendo World Championships.
43:51>> Dude.
43:52>> Yeah.
43:52>> Wow. You can get You can get a Nintendo
43:55now.
43:55>> I know. I got one. Uh I got like a I got
43:58something when I like moved back to LA,
44:00like an Xbox or something.
44:01>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
44:02>> And it just wasn't like there's too many
44:04buttons now. I'm old.
44:05>> There are a lot of like a lot of buttons
44:07on a P- I played Last of Us when I was
44:09covering it.
44:10>> Mhm.
44:11>> A lot of buttons. But, it was super cool
44:13to play. I loved it.
44:14>> I just I would rather be reading a book
44:15than doing almost anything else.
44:17>> Yeah.
44:18>> All right. Let's get to
44:20chapter four.
44:22So, we clearly are both on the same page
44:24of uh
44:27enjoying this book.
44:28>> Mhm.
44:28>> I was I was almost shockingly surprised
44:31at how much I liked it. Like I would
44:32have said before
44:34if my nephew was like going to read this
44:36book, I'd be like, "I don't know. Go and
44:37get something better." But, now I'd be
44:38like, "Oh, read this." And again, I
44:39think everyone should read whatever they
44:41can. Whatever If kids are reading this,
44:42it's like Harry Potter to me. Um would
44:45you recommend this to everyone?
44:47>> I would recommend it to most people who
44:50are interested in checking it out.
44:52>> Who would Who do recommend it to?
44:53>> Um I mean, I don't know. I don't have a
44:54specific
44:56person or or or person with a type of
44:58interest in mind. I just think like it's
45:01it's definitely specific, right? So, I
45:03don't know if it's for everyone, but I
45:04think it's definitely for more people
45:06than think it is for them.
45:09>> I mean, I think it's trash, but like
45:10again, sometimes you want trash. They're
45:13like, "Oh, I've got a long flight, you
45:14know, I've got this book. What do you
45:16think?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah, read that."
45:17You'll like fly through it.
45:19Uh it's fun enough.
45:20>> Yeah.
45:20>> Um, but I think my friend Greg
45:22Rosenthal, you know, I would he would
45:23hate this [ __ ] so much.
45:25>> Oh, yeah.
45:26>> Why?
45:26>> I just I mean, he's I don't think he's
45:29played a video game besides like NBA 2K
45:31in his life.
45:32Um
45:32>> But what he's a football guy, so what if
45:34you tell him that one of the old people
45:35had a Bengals hat on? Then he's just
45:37going to start talking to you about Joe
45:38Burrow, you know, can he stay healthy,
45:40can the Bengals O-line protect him?
45:41>> That's not really Greg. That's not the
45:43Greg I know. You know, I think he would
45:44truly hate this in a way that I just
45:47know his taste. That I There's some
45:49people that I'm like it's not like not
45:50everyone has to run out and go read
45:51this.
45:52>> Sure.
45:52>> But if you're on the fence, like go for
45:54it. It's it's harmless fun.
45:56>> Oh, for sure. Yeah, I recommended it to
45:58my husband who is a I would say an avid
46:01gamer, and uh he
46:04for a long time was like a voracious
46:06reader and has kind of been in a little
46:07bit of a reading lull, and so I
46:08recommended it to him because of the the
46:10the lit RPG element, but also I was
46:12like, "I think this will get you going
46:13again on the reading front." And he's
46:14he's tearing through it.
46:15>> That's great. What's your pitch on
46:17people who think they they want to do
46:18the audiobook, but you think, "Hey, read
46:20the read the text."
46:21>> No, I think pick whatever's right for
46:23you. I don't like to tell people how to
46:26read. For me, I I have my preferences,
46:29right? But like I have tried to um
46:32appreciate the fact that for so many
46:35people audiobooks is like unlocked uh
46:37either a rekindling or a new
46:38relationship to to books. I think that's
46:40great, right? And as I understand I've
46:42not yet checked out the audiobook for
46:44for Dungeon Crawler Carl, but as I
46:46understand it it's
46:48sensational, like incredibly
46:49entertaining, like really great voice
46:51performance. So, if people want to do
46:53the audiobook, I think that's awesome.
46:55If you want to read uh the the the you
46:58know the paper in your hand and feel it
46:59tactile great if you want to read it on
47:01a Kindle awesome graphic novel check it
47:04out like do whatever you need to do to
47:06allow yourself to fall into the universe
47:08I think that's fine.
47:08>> you think about Seth MacFarlane adapting
47:10adapting this to a series?
47:11>> So I'm interested in the I am very
47:13interested in the in the adaptation it's
47:15going to be on Peacock.
47:19I I have some questions
47:22I have some questions I am hopeful part
47:24of the reason that I was really eager to
47:26to read it is because like I do when
47:28something is greenlit to be adapted as a
47:30film or show I'm like I got to get on it
47:31because we're going to cover this right
47:32we're going to cover it on the pod and I
47:34need to be ready.
47:35>> [snorts]
47:35>> Um
47:36I am so curious to see how they visually
47:39render Donut. Feel like the show is like
47:44it it all hinges on that.
47:45>> like like the Garfield of it all like it
47:47really like Calvin and Hobbes situation
47:50where if you [ __ ] that up
47:51>> It could be a disaster.
47:53>> Yeah I got to think they know that and
47:54it might be like a Sonic the Hedgehog
47:55situation where they release a footage
47:57and people are like no.
47:59>> Right and they go back and get it right.
48:01Yeah.
48:01>> If you were going to recommend like I
48:02like anything that's a gateway like a
48:04gateway drug to get people into reading.
48:06If someone's watching this podcast being
48:07like oh they're going to talk about
48:08Dungeon Crawler Carl they're excited
48:10that we liked it.
48:11>> Yes. What are some books you would
48:12recommend to them? I've got four here.
48:15>> Hit us.
48:15>> for different reasons.
48:16>> Let's hear them.
48:17>> Uh so if you're into it for the video
48:18game of it all if you're just like I
48:20love video games video games are my life
48:22but you want something a little deeper.
48:24>> I feel like we're going to have the same
48:24number one here.
48:25>> Really okay I I bet I wouldn't be
48:27surprised too because I almost like
48:28asked our producer Daniel to like double
48:31check your list versus mine he didn't
48:33say anything but that doesn't mean that
48:34he
48:36is not wrong.
48:37Uh so a Tomorrow and Tomorrow and
48:39Tomorrow
48:40>> That's my number one.
48:40>> by Gabrielle Zevin
48:42>> Yeah.
48:42>> if you like the just the video straight
48:44up video game but a great story I think
48:46University Beloved novel
48:49>> One of the best recent one one of the
48:50best contemporary novels period.
48:53Um
48:54this book
48:55I was a mess reading this book a a
48:58I think some of that is uh
49:00I would say I have an unhealthy
49:01relationship to my work and many of my
49:03closest friends in the world are my
49:05colleagues and so
49:07>> I held together, but I love stories
49:08about friendship that like, you know,
49:09life that spans a lifetime that I was
49:13uh I was very into it. It's like a
49:14Cameron Crowe movie kind of thing.
49:16>> Great characters. It's It's beautiful.
49:18Gut-wrenching, but beautiful.
49:19>> What was your number two?
49:21So we don't
49:22>> So I tried for all the recommendations
49:23to to go through that lens of like a
49:26thing about this book, a reason, but it
49:30doesn't necessarily have to be all that
49:31similar other than that, right? So the
49:32video game was the reason for Tomorrow,
49:34and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow. My next
49:37nomination, City of Thieves.
49:40>> David Benioff?
49:41>> Benioff.
49:41>> Amazing amazing novel. That might be a
49:43future Just Like Book Club 2027
49:47uh pick.
49:48>> It is
49:50stunning. This uh came out in 2008,
49:53really short, so it meets your criteria.
49:55250 258, I think. 250, something like
49:57that. Um I had not read this. I had
49:59wanted to for a while. It had come
50:00highly recommended by a number of people
50:01whose opinions I I respect and admire,
50:04and I finally read it again actually
50:06when I was covering The Last of Us
50:08because it is one of the main influences
50:10on on Neil Druckmann, the the creator
50:12Naughty Dog, creator of the game, on the
50:14game. There's like you can see the
50:15characters holding it in the game as an
50:17Easter egg. Um so the reason, the
50:19connection here is unlikely friendships,
50:21right? Lev and Kolya, uh and not just an
50:25unlikely friendship, but an unlikely
50:26partnership but specifically in a really
50:28trying
50:30circumstance,
50:32and the ability to find some sort of
50:34light in a like desperately dark time.
50:37Uh
50:39The end of that book, I obviously won't
50:40spoil the particulars, but it is um
50:44really soul-shredding.
50:45>> Yeah.
50:46>> It's great.
50:47>> It's great when it's a It's a banger.
50:48>> It really is.
50:49>> An absolute banger. My number two was
50:51kind of thinking of like the
50:52problem-solving
50:53>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
50:54>> of it all. I had And you might have this
50:55on your list, too, is The Martian by
50:57Andy Weir.
50:57>> I have another Andy Weir.
50:58>> I think if you love if you love this
51:00like the science fiction of it all, but
51:02like kind of want something a little
51:03more grounded,
51:04>> Mhm.
51:04>> a little more adult, uh I think The
51:06Martian by Andy Weir will get you get
51:09you there.
51:09>> So,
51:10>> I can't imagine reading
51:12uh Dune and Carl Carl loving it and not
51:14loving The Martian.
51:15>> The Martian's fantastic. Um
51:17I do have an Andy Weir on my list. It is
51:19Project Hail Mary, which I know you have
51:21not read and you haven't seen the movie
51:22and I know you you you said you talked
51:24to Joe about this on on House of R. You
51:26think that Rocky seems, and I quote,
51:29too cute. Like to talk this through with
51:31you for a minute here.
51:33I think The Martian is great. Project
51:35Hail Mary is god-tier. It it is
51:38fantastically good. It is one of my
51:40favorite reading experiences of the past
51:42decade. And some of that is because and
51:45and you and Joe actually also talked
51:46about this when you were talking about
51:47Three-Body Problem, like when in a hard
51:50sci-fi story is the physics maybe a
51:52little bit um impenetrable or barrier,
51:55does that matter, right? And like I
51:56think that's something that really
51:57varies reader to reader. There
51:58definitely is like a lot of
52:01astrophysics in Project Hail Mary, but
52:02never in a way that I found, just like
52:04with The Martian, um you know,
52:05off-putting or like alienating in any
52:08way. It was actually kind of like fun to
52:10You either let it wash over you, or if
52:12you want to try to like learn a little
52:13bit as you're reading it, you can. But
52:14the main reason is a surprising bond
52:16with a non-human companion. If you liked
52:19the Carl donut aspect of this book,
52:22the relationship between Rocky and Grace
52:24in Project Hail Mary is like a new
52:26template for how that can function. Now,
52:29you mentioned on House of R that the
52:31dark forest theory is something that is
52:33really like stimulating and interesting
52:34to you. I agree. This is We had Andy
52:37Weir on the pod, and he actually cited
52:39that as like the antithesis of what he
52:41was trying to do in [snorts] his and I'm
52:44I'm quoting him loosely here, but
52:46he described it as like Pollyanna-ish.
52:49You know, he wants to believe that and
52:51write stories that like if you went out
52:53in space and you could fronted a an
52:56alien race, maybe you could not only get
52:58along, but try to save the world. Now,
53:00that for some people might be too
53:02saccharine or like a little too hopeful.
53:04I think that's totally valid. I would
53:05just tell you it is really lovely,
53:07really great. The Rocky is I think an
53:10indelible character, genuinely
53:12indelible. He's an icon.
53:14>> Sounds cute.
53:15>> [laughter]
53:15>> Um
53:16my third one is a book that I've like I
53:19I talked about this on your pod. I've
53:21talked about this on my pod a hundred
53:22times. I've had people sending bracelets
53:25uh about this book. I wrote a forward
53:28for this book that I just turned in a
53:29couple weeks ago. Chain-Gang All-Stars.
53:31>> Mhm.
53:32>> Nanaquameh Adjei Brenyah. One day I'll
53:34be able to just rattle it off, but I
53:36always look down and I'm afraid I'm
53:37going to get it wrong. I One of my
53:38favorite books like of all time.
53:40>> read it.
53:40>> a couple years ago. It is like it's you
53:42get the TV show, you get the It's like a
53:45little a more adult version of the
53:47dungeon crawl. It is There it's It's
53:50like Running Man Running Man ask.
53:52>> Yeah.
53:52>> They're prisoners in like a near future.
53:55It's a part of a reality show. They're
53:56in like gangs they get put into and
53:58they're made to fight each other at
53:59certain times. And it is one of the most
54:01beautiful books
54:03ever. The violence is exquisitely
54:05written. The moments of peace are tense.
54:08There's mystery. It's a love story. And
54:11the ending like he nails the ending
54:13harder than anyone's ever nailed an
54:15ending. I love I just had to reread it
54:18to write this forward and I was like I
54:19love it even more a second time.
54:22>> This is the joy of rereading.
54:23>> There are footnotes in uh Chain-Gang
54:25All-Stars that are true facts about the
54:27prison system. Like it is so much deeper
54:30that I think if you like Dungeon Crawler
54:31Carl, you want something a little
54:32deeper, a little more like Booker Prize
54:34short-list, uh
54:36read uh Chain-Gang All-Stars. But again,
54:38it's it feels weird even recommend it on
54:39this list
54:40>> Yeah.
54:41>> because you could be like, "Hey,
54:43uh you know, we read um
54:46Tradwife or whatever the [ __ ] that book
54:47is that's out now. Uh what do you
54:49recommend reading after that?" I would
54:50say Chain-Gang All-Stars by
54:52Nanaquameh Adjei Brenyah.
54:53>> You You mentioned Running Man. Would you
54:55Would you Would you say like, you know,
54:56on the Stephen King front Running Man or
54:58The Long Walk like some of those I mean
54:59obviously there's a lot of on the comps
55:02front in terms of
55:04uh not just the dystopian but like
55:05reality TV competition aspect of Dungeon
55:08Crawler crawl. There's a lot of like you
55:09know, 15 million merits the Black Mirror
55:11episode and then Squid Game and and
55:13Battle Royale and
55:15uh Allison Allison Borderlands and all
55:18that. But like certainly I think
55:19undeniably a little bit of the the
55:21Kingian Running Man Long Walk like the
55:23kind of early days uh this is some sort
55:27of competition show in order to stay
55:29alive and everyone is watching you fight
55:32to like work your way through this. I
55:34mean, you know, on the classic classics
55:35front
55:36I didn't have those on my list but let's
55:37send people back. Why not?
55:38>> Yeah, I think it depends on when like
55:40it's almost like a zombie stories that
55:42they've evolved and I like where the
55:43evolution has gone. You know, that this
55:46new this newest version like I I to me
55:49Running Man is Arnold Schwarzenegger.
55:51That I think that's the best version.
55:52I've read the book, seen the movie, seen
55:54the remake.
55:54>> Tough beat for Glen Powell.
55:57That movie was not good. Though I am the
55:59world's leading Lee Pace enthusiast.
56:01>> I have friends involved. I had to go see
56:03it and I it was it was uh it was tough.
56:06But I think The Long Walk The Long Walk
56:08the book
56:08>> Mhm.
56:09>> and the movie [clears throat] I thought
56:09was as good as it could possibly be. But
56:11I thought the book was uh was better.
56:14>> Yeah.
56:14>> Yeah, yeah.
56:15>> Okay.
56:15>> Um do you have a last one? I have one.
56:17>> I have a a couple more quick ones but
56:19yeah. Um let's see. Orbital?
56:22Have you read Orbital? Samantha Harvey
56:23this uh won the Booker in 2024, came out
56:26in 2023. It's
56:29less than 200 pages. It is
56:32>> I don't remember it.
56:33>> So
56:34the prose
56:37is just stunning and gorgeous. It's some
56:39of the the best pure writing that I have
56:41come across recently. But the the little
56:44bit of connective tissue to the the text
56:46we're talking about today is um
56:48seeing and considering Earth and
56:50civilization through a new lens. That's
56:52my
56:53That's my excuse here for for pitching
56:55Orbital because that is um
56:57the story of six astronauts who are on
57:00the space station as it makes one, you
57:01know, orbit. Right? So it's 24 hours.
57:03You're shifting uh point of view and
57:05perspective in each chapter and it's
57:07just a lot of like contemplation about
57:09our place in the universe and what is
57:11happening down there. And you know, I
57:13wouldn't say that that's
57:15central
57:17central to Dungeon Crawler. Carl's a bit
57:20of a tongue twister. We haven't really
57:21talked about that. Dungeon Crawler Carl.
57:24>> I mean, I wanted it to be Kevin.
57:26>> Kevin.
57:27>> Yeah, Dungeon Crawler Kevin.
57:28>> Dungeon Crawler Kevin.
57:30>> I think he wanted it to be hard on
57:32purpose.
57:32>> Yeah, not Tucker.
57:33>> Dungeon Crawler Carl.
57:34>> Tucker is what you throw out instead of
57:35buddy when you don't know someone's
57:36name, but Dungeon Crawler Tucker
57:37wouldn't have worked.
57:38>> Dungeon Crawler Tucker.
57:40>> No.
57:41No.
57:41>> I kind of like it. I kind of like it.
57:43>> Maybe we'll meet a Tucker. I mean, you
57:44know, South of a million people left,
57:46but still other characters to me. Um so
57:48Orbital I would throw out there. Uh I
57:50have a I have a few more.
57:52>> I got I got one more.
57:53>> Hit me.
57:53>> Uh and this and this is like totally
57:55like let's get out of here left field.
57:58You like this, you enjoy this guy's
58:00adventures, and you're like this might
58:01be the first novel you've ever read. You
58:03know, and you want something like you
58:05want a guy just a hard ass going through
58:07life. And then again, you're you're
58:09leveling up from Carl to more of a
58:11anti-hero, perhaps a villain himself.
58:14>> Okay. I'm going The Hunter by Richard
58:15Stark.
58:16>> From the Parker series. Have you ever
58:17read any like they made like uh Striking
58:20Distance.
58:21Not Striking Distance. God, what's the
58:22name of the movie?
58:23Uh
58:24with Lee Marvin. They remade it with Mel
58:26Gibson called Payback.
58:27>> Uh uh huh.
58:27>> And it's like a classic, you know,
58:30robber villain. His his girl and his
58:32best friend betray him. Leave him for
58:35dead. He's not dead. He goes and gets
58:36revenge. And they made This book was so
58:39successful, they made like a Parker
58:40series that was like 26 books. And
58:42they're all
58:44>> Wow.
58:44>> very fun. The first three, I think that
58:46they're all around 250 pages, and the
58:48first three are like a contained story.
58:50It's great. And then it kind of spins
58:51off into almost the way Die Hard got
58:54more cartoonish.
58:55>> Uh there's one like set in a theme park
58:58where he's getting away from the mob and
58:59he goes and kills guys with like things
59:01in an abandoned theme park that was
59:02>> Incredible.
59:02>> uh great. But I think if you like this
59:05and you want something a little more
59:06serious,
59:07>> Okay.
59:07>> that I think The Hunter any of the in
59:09the in the Parker series by Richard
59:10Stark
59:11>> Okay.
59:11>> would uh would float your boat.
59:13>> I love it. Um these next ones are are
59:15not necessarily like honoring the spirit
59:17of the exercise in terms of
59:18recommendations I'd make for other
59:19people. These are specifically, I'm
59:20using this opportunity to pitch you on a
59:22few things if you'll allow it. Um
59:24>> Miss Kim, take notes.
59:26>> [laughter]
59:26>> Already um City of Thieves
59:29for next year's.
59:30>> That that book rules.
59:31>> It's great.
59:33>> This is how you lose the time war.
59:35Are you familiar with this?
59:36>> I've heard the I've heard the title.
59:38>> This is
59:39>> It's a great title.
59:40>> Oh my god. So this is from 2019.
59:45Harrowing to confront that that's more
59:47than half a decade ago at this point. My
59:48goodness. Uh this is by Amal El-Mohtar
59:51and Max Gladstone. So it's a dual
59:53authorship and they traded chapters
59:56while writing this at a like writers
59:58retreat and they each are writing one of
1:00:01the primary characters, Red and Blue.
1:00:02And it is a love story that plays across
1:00:05time.
1:00:06And the little bit of connective tissue
1:00:09here is just the idea of again, a story
1:00:11shared and discovering something about
1:00:13whether it is like a sprawling syndicate
1:00:16and conspiracy or some sort of like uh
1:00:19vicious hellscape, finding a connection
1:00:21to somebody else even if it didn't seem
1:00:23like a possible thing or something that
1:00:25was supposed to happen and that allows
1:00:28you to rediscover like who you are and
1:00:30who you're meant to be. It is so so
1:00:33beautiful. It
1:00:34I I would have to go off the dome here
1:00:36and I might [ __ ] up the line up a little
1:00:37bit, but
1:00:39it has my now I think favorite
1:00:41description of like what it feels like
1:00:44to fall in love with somebody. One of
1:00:46the characters writes to the cuz they're
1:00:47writing letters.
1:00:49I want to show you every place I have
1:00:51loved.
1:00:52And I was just like this is gobsmacking
1:00:55in what it says about wanting to spend
1:00:58your life with somebody. So check it out
1:01:00if you have.
1:01:01>> the literal line or you paraphrasing?
1:01:03>> I think it's pretty close. I might be
1:01:04off by a word or two, but it's check it
1:01:07out. It's
1:01:07>> I want to show you every place I love.
1:01:09>> I want to show you every place I love.
1:01:10>> It was gobsmacking.
1:01:11>> Because it's like you want to you want
1:01:13to share your life with somebody. I love
1:01:15this place. I want you to know why I
1:01:17loved it. What a beautiful insight.
1:01:18>> I get it. Yeah.
1:01:20>> My buddy's not impressed. Tough one.
1:01:22>> I know I mean you wait until you
1:01:24discover Duran Duran. You were going to
1:01:26be blown away.
1:01:28>> [laughter]
1:01:29[gasps]
1:01:29>> Now are you ready for chapter five?
1:01:32>> Is this where I can quickly ask you if
1:01:34you'll read some Thrones
1:01:35before them? Because I do think
1:01:38>> See, I would have said yes before but
1:01:40now that it's this [ __ ] brick wall
1:01:43you're running into he's not finishing
1:01:45the books.
1:01:45>> Okay, but this is
1:01:47here's the thing.
1:01:49The Tales of Dunk and Egg. The novellas
1:01:51that A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms are
1:01:53based on.
1:01:53>> I I would be more into that and I love
1:01:56the show.
1:01:56>> Three hour read for each of the
1:01:58novellas. You pick up The Hedge Knight.
1:02:00You spend an afternoon and much like
1:02:02Dungeon Crawler Carl an unlikely
1:02:04pairing, you know, and the adventure is
1:02:05going to impact the fate of the world.
1:02:07So I think it's applicable for this
1:02:08exercise today. They're I mean it's
1:02:11they're wonderful. They're so charming
1:02:12and delightful and that could be your
1:02:14entryway. You don't have to worry if if
1:02:16Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring are
1:02:18ever going to come out.
1:02:18>> I enjoyed the show. Like I like watching
1:02:20the show as a person who had not read
1:02:22the books and I was like this is how I'm
1:02:23going to consume this media.
1:02:25I like, you know,
1:02:26the tale of knight whatever the [ __ ] I
1:02:28watched House of Dragon
1:02:30>> Yeah.
1:02:30>> even though I'm like always like every
1:02:32time it ends I'm like I don't know who
1:02:33anybody is or what's going on but I
1:02:35still kind of just like sitting in that
1:02:37world for an hour.
1:02:37>> the same name, the same hair color and
1:02:39they [ __ ] each other. So
1:02:40>> Like the one the main girl the main
1:02:42woman from House of Dragon is at the in
1:02:44the end of Diggler and it like blew me
1:02:46away and I was like who is this? I know
1:02:48that person and then went home and
1:02:50googled it and I was like okay, yeah.
1:02:52Now are you which which um
1:02:55>> [snorts]
1:02:56>> drag or
1:02:57Game of Thrones book would you
1:02:58recommend?
1:02:59>> Well, I think you should read just start
1:03:01do uh
1:03:02do The Hedge Knight, you know?
1:03:04>> Okay. I would do I would do that for you
1:03:06to repay this favor of yours of being on
1:03:08my show. Would you would do one
1:03:11two more things for me?
1:03:12>> Of course.
1:03:13>> Would you enter chapter five the JBC
1:03:15gauntlet?
1:03:16>> [sighs and gasps]
1:03:16>> I'd would delighted.
1:03:17>> Great.
1:03:19I'm going to give you just an opinion,
1:03:21not necessarily my opinion. Just kind of
1:03:23tell me agree or disagree.
1:03:25>> Okay.
1:03:26>> It's too late to close the barn door on
1:03:28AI use in literature.
1:03:34>> Uh
1:03:34>> [sighs]
1:03:34>> disagree.
1:03:36Too late like it sh- it it it it has to
1:03:39be.
1:03:40>> I think it's like steroids in sports or
1:03:41performance-enhancing drugs that like I
1:03:43think we should police it and do what we
1:03:45can, but there's always going to be
1:03:46someone who's doing it. In France, it's
1:03:49like the all the rage. They want like
1:03:51labels on books that say, "We guarantee
1:03:54this is made by a human." I think that's
1:03:55I think it's over. Uh it's going to be
1:03:57in there, but I think it's always going
1:03:59to be noticeable and bad. It doesn't
1:04:01scare me, but I think it's like trying
1:04:03to be like this will never happen.
1:04:05>> Yeah, I think it is
1:04:07it's
1:04:09maybe requires a level of um desperate
1:04:12hope to think that we could fend it off,
1:04:14but I like to believe that it's still
1:04:15possible.
1:04:16>> Okay, I would like to as well. I just I
1:04:19I don't think so.
1:04:20Um what would you rather have with you
1:04:22during the apocalypse, a dog or a cat?
1:04:24>> A cat. Easy.
1:04:26No question.
1:04:26>> talking cat or is this Is this just
1:04:29straight-up cat?
1:04:30>> So, here's the thing about cats. You
1:04:31don't While it's great to hear Donut uh
1:04:34speak in sentences and wear a tiara and
1:04:36all that, you don't need a cat to
1:04:37actually be able to speak English to you
1:04:39in order to understand what a cat is
1:04:40saying. It's like the way that when
1:04:42R2-D2 beeps and boops, like I know what
1:04:45he means.
1:04:46The way that a cow a cat can emote the
1:04:49different tone and intonation in the
1:04:51meow, the look, the expression, like I
1:04:53can have full conversations with a cat.
1:04:55>> Yeah, but you just
1:04:56But the cat's not charming people who
1:04:58want to kill you in the apocalypse.
1:04:59Like, do you want Are you
1:05:01>> charisma level, I mean, the charisma
1:05:02level, you know. Is it about the the the
1:05:05English sentence structure or is it
1:05:07about just something innate to the
1:05:10experience of of sharing a space with a
1:05:12cat? I mean, like that. I would want my
1:05:14dog, but I
1:05:15>> would probably like I don't know if he'd
1:05:17get me killed right away, you know, much
1:05:19like a [ __ ] but I think I just love
1:05:21videos now. My favorite cat videos
1:05:24are videos of cats fighting snakes.
1:05:26Have you seen these?
1:05:27>> No.
1:05:28>> Cats are scary.
1:05:29>> No, because cats are so much faster
1:05:32>> Yeah.
1:05:32>> that it's always like almost like the
1:05:34cat's a bully. Like the snake kind of
1:05:36comes up and the cat's always just like
1:05:38>> Yeah.
1:05:38>> And then bam, and just plays with it.
1:05:41That you're never afraid for the cat. I
1:05:42swear to god.
1:05:43>> Okay, I
1:05:44I do get a lot of videos on Instagram of
1:05:46a of a cat, you know, scooping a fish
1:05:48out of the ocean.
1:05:49>> Sure.
1:05:50>> Which maybe is part of the same
1:05:52strain of a video.
1:05:54>> snake is is great, and you will as a cat
1:05:57fan you will love it. It's my favorite
1:05:58genre of cat video.
1:05:59>> Okay, I'll check it out. My Instagram
1:06:00algorithm is like 80% cat videos, so I'm
1:06:02surprised this hasn't made its way to
1:06:04me.
1:06:04>> I would get I was getting a lot of dog
1:06:05videos, and now with AI I don't trust
1:06:07them anymore.
1:06:07>> Oh, sure.
1:06:08>> It's like the dog choosing its owner,
1:06:09you're like, get out of here.
1:06:10>> This is so cute. This is so sweet. Is
1:06:12this real?
1:06:12>> Exactly.
1:06:13>> Look at the color of this hummingbird's
1:06:15wings. Can this possibly be real? Yeah.
1:06:17>> You can love a character and still think
1:06:20they need to die.
1:06:21>> Oh, of course. Absolutely. Agree.
1:06:23>> Yeah.
1:06:24>> Yes. Not only can you, I think that's
1:06:25part of the
1:06:27thrill of
1:06:29forming an attachment, and then you find
1:06:31yourself like complicit
1:06:32>> Mhm.
1:06:33>> in
1:06:34knowing that a certain outcome is right
1:06:36for the story, even though it's going to
1:06:37hurt.
1:06:38>> Absolutely. I love characters I love
1:06:40characters dying. I couldn't agree more.
1:06:42>> [laughter]
1:06:42>> Uh having a dragon does not make you
1:06:43interesting.
1:06:48>> I'll agree. Yeah, it doesn't make you
1:06:50interesting. The dragon's always going
1:06:52to be interesting. The rider not
1:06:53necessarily.
1:06:53>> I disagree. I think having a dragon,
1:06:55like, tell me about the dragon. How'd
1:06:56you get the dragon? That's two things I
1:06:57want to ask you. Like, I think it makes
1:06:59you interesting. Maybe I read less of
1:07:01these kind of books than you do.
1:07:02>> Yeah.
1:07:03>> Someone has a dragon, I'm like, you're
1:07:04you're cool. You can come.
1:07:06>> I I love dragons. I love direwolves. I
1:07:09love all sorts of magical creatures. So,
1:07:10you're not into You have not dipped a
1:07:12toe into the Romantasy waters yet, is
1:07:14that right?
1:07:14>> No.
1:07:15>> Yeah.
1:07:16Um
1:07:17>> And I don't think I ever will.
1:07:19>> You should. You should. Give it a try.
1:07:21I'm actually quite new to it.
1:07:22>> pile is too insane for me to like [ __ ]
1:07:24around with romantasy. I would have to
1:07:25be locked in a room with a copy of it
1:07:28and like nothing else to do to do that.
1:07:30>> that sounds like one of the tropes
1:07:32inside of a romantasy novel. You're
1:07:33locked in a room with just one other
1:07:34thing and nothing to do, right? You're
1:07:37You're ready already. The Empyrean
1:07:39series, Rebecca Yarros. Are you
1:07:40familiar? It's like the craze, Fourth
1:07:42Wing.
1:07:42>> No.
1:07:43>> Oh my god. So, this is like they're the
1:07:44most popular books in
1:07:47decades. And uh the right that it's a
1:07:50dragon riding college.
1:07:52And uh
1:07:54the the riders can hear it, you know,
1:07:55they can communicate like telepathically
1:07:57with their their dragons. They can carry
1:07:59on conversations, but also the dragons
1:08:00can have a mating bond with each other.
1:08:02So, sometimes the riders fall in love
1:08:04with each other, but they don't know if
1:08:05they're horny because they're sensing
1:08:08that their dragons want to [ __ ] This is
1:08:10true.
1:08:11>> That's the whole That's like the main
1:08:12plot of the whole thing?
1:08:13>> No. No, it's just an added bonus that
1:08:15that's there. Yeah.
1:08:16>> Last one, naming your football team
1:08:18after a poem is performative reading
1:08:21adjacent.
1:08:23>> I mean, this is rude.
1:08:24>> That was That was all That was all
1:08:26Daniel.
1:08:26>> I know. I looked right at Comer. That's
1:08:28rude.
1:08:28>> have beef. I'm a Steelers fan, but
1:08:30growing up Baltimore was where my family
1:08:32vacationed. They did not have the team
1:08:34yet. So, I never I didn't grow up with a
1:08:36rivalry. I can appreciate Baltimore.
1:08:39>> Uh
1:08:40I
1:08:44it's hard for me to talk to a Steelers
1:08:48fan.
1:08:49>> I mean, there are some obnoxious ones.
1:08:51I'll I'll grant you that.
1:08:52>> One of my dear friends and and
1:08:55colleagues actually works at The Ringer,
1:08:56Ben Lindbergh. Dear friend. We've known
1:08:58each other for decades, and he's from
1:08:59Pittsburgh, and I almost didn't go to
1:09:02his wedding cuz it was in Pittsburgh.
1:09:03And then I went, and let me tell you,
1:09:04beautiful city. Love Gorgeous.
1:09:05>> You Every once in a while, you'll be
1:09:07like normal normal normal, and then
1:09:09batshit crazy.
1:09:11Uh but I love it. I love it. I like the
1:09:14name the Ravens.
1:09:15>> Yeah.
1:09:15>> I think it's one of the best things
1:09:17about about that team.
1:09:18>> Also, you have obviously you've got the
1:09:20Edgar Allan Poe connection. You know
1:09:21they have three Raven mascots, Edgar,
1:09:23Allan, and Poe. Delightful. Wonderful
1:09:25stuff. Maybe that falls to you into the
1:09:27rocky too cute bucket. I don't know. I
1:09:29think it's delightful.
1:09:30>> NFL mascots are different, you know, we
1:09:32got Steely McBeam and everyone loves
1:09:34him.
1:09:34>> The Oriole bird, right? So, it's like
1:09:37the Baltimore Orioles and the Baltimore
1:09:38Ravens, it's perfect. Come on.
1:09:40It was wonderful.
1:09:42>> I like so I like the Ravens. I like
1:09:43Baltimore more than, you know, Cleveland
1:09:45or Cincinnati.
1:09:46>> Well.
1:09:46>> I I like them all. I like the whole AFC
1:09:48North. When I'm on tour, I always enjoy
1:09:50a show in any of those three cities. And
1:09:52I like crabs a lot. So, Baltimore
1:09:54>> Steam crabs, crab cake.
1:09:55>> Steamed.
1:09:56>> Crab soup.
1:09:57>> I like steamed crabs with the with the
1:09:58black with the Old Bay and the
1:10:00newspaper.
1:10:02>> Oh, you're you're legit. Okay.
1:10:03>> I love it.
1:10:04>> Fantastic.
1:10:05>> Well, thank you for playing uh the JBC
1:10:08gauntlet. You have survived it. Now, uh
1:10:11I've got a hard out at 8:00 p.m. So,
1:10:13we're going to wrap this up with the
1:10:14acknowledgements
1:10:16where uh we decided it when we started
1:10:19this podcast. You're like you're the
1:10:20first guest in our second month of being
1:10:23on. Again, thank you for being here. I
1:10:25hope the other Ringer staff members see
1:10:27this episode and see what can be
1:10:30possible with the collaboration on
1:10:33Jessel Nick Book Club. Uh coming
1:10:34forward, I think we you we had a good
1:10:35time. I think we gelled. People People
1:10:38online were almost like just shy of
1:10:40writing like fan fiction about us
1:10:42getting together on a podcast. So, I
1:10:43hope we delivered what they expected.
1:10:46Maybe maybe surprised them a little bit.
1:10:48>> I had a wonderful time. For me, this was
1:10:50a just a sensational experience. I want
1:10:53to to that note about the the wider
1:10:54Ringer universe. I want the list of
1:10:57people lining up to
1:10:59ask to be on the pod to be long enough
1:11:02that you feel properly respected and
1:11:04honored as you should, but not so long
1:11:06that I have to wait too long to come
1:11:07back.
1:11:08>> You're welcome back anytime. You're You
1:11:09get like a free pass because you like
1:11:11broke the seal.
1:11:12>> [laughter]
1:11:12>> I feel like I'm feared here right now
1:11:14and I want to keep that going for as
1:11:16long as I can.
1:11:17>> There's a mystique. Yeah. Yeah.
1:11:18>> But I we I have demanded that every
1:11:21every guest bring me a gift as tribute
1:11:23to put on the bookshelf behind me.
1:11:25Everyone's been happy to do this for the
1:11:26most part.
1:11:28Let's see what
1:11:30This is part of it is
1:11:33Okay, this is a Game of Thrones dragon
1:11:36egg.
1:11:38>> Drogon the dragon, yeah, dragon egg.
1:11:40It's a little bigger than I I thought it
1:11:41was going to be, but you know, you can
1:11:42use it as a paperweight, you can use it
1:11:44as a bookend, it just looks cool. I
1:11:45think it has that kind of like masculine
1:11:47color scheme that you're going for here.
1:11:49You can't really talk about books at the
1:11:51Ringer without having some sort of
1:11:52little Thrones Easter egg on the
1:11:54bookshelf here, and you just said that
1:11:55you think people are more interesting if
1:11:56they have a dragon, so like
1:11:58>> is not a specific I definitely This is
1:12:00the best when I saw it like when you
1:12:02brought this in and put it next to my
1:12:04chair so you wouldn't have to get up. I
1:12:06saw Is this taped together? Can I open
1:12:07it?
1:12:08>> I just I just
1:12:10>> I can just pull it?
1:12:12>> It was supposed to be pre-opened, was it
1:12:14not?
1:12:15There we go.
1:12:16>> This is cool. This is the best Game of
1:12:18Thrones. I was wondering what it would
1:12:21be, which character it would be based
1:12:23on.
1:12:23>> Yeah, Drogon, Dany's dragon.
1:12:25There you go.
1:12:26>> Okay.
1:12:26>> Yeah.
1:12:27>> Awesome. I'll have someone
1:12:29>> I feel like such a like I feel like I'm
1:12:31in like an astronaut suit trying to put
1:12:33together a satellite even though I just
1:12:35have a mic in front of me and it's a
1:12:36two-piece system here. But I think this
1:12:38is great. This is my favorite gift so
1:12:39far. I've gotten books and stuff that
1:12:41goes on the shelf, but nothing that that
1:12:42says like, "Hey, I will rule this place
1:12:45one day."
1:12:46>> Yeah, exactly.
1:12:47>> You deserve to be treated like royalty.
1:12:49And if you have some sort of prophetic
1:12:51dream and you put that into the fire,
1:12:54perhaps you will birth a dragon.
1:12:58You will emerge from the fire nude.
1:13:00That's canon.
1:13:00>> Of course.
1:13:01>> But as long as you're okay with that, I
1:13:04think you should consider it.
1:13:05>> Has anyone done a podcast naked in here
1:13:07before?
1:13:11>> That's a great question. Probably.
1:13:14Probably. Do you guys wipe down these
1:13:15chairs before you start recording?
1:13:17>> After.
1:13:18As [laughter] soon as you get up.
1:13:20All right, now it's time for Actually,
1:13:21no, we we're still in acknowledgements.
1:13:24Uh
1:13:24you suggested a book for me to read.
1:13:28What would we If you come When you come
1:13:29back, what would we not if you come
1:13:31back, when you come back, what would you
1:13:33>> quickly from I can come back whenever I
1:13:35want [laughter] to if I come back. Tough
1:13:37one.
1:13:37>> love I would love to have you back, but
1:13:39what I feel like this was my challenge
1:13:42that you accepted.
1:13:44What would you want to read? I don't
1:13:45want to read it's like when someone's
1:13:46like let's watch a movie together and
1:13:48they pick something they've seen a
1:13:48hundred times. Don't do that to me.
1:13:50>> Okay.
1:13:51>> Give me something like hey, this is
1:13:52fresh.
1:13:54I've been thinking about this.
1:13:57>> I just Have you ever read anything by
1:14:00Alex E. Harrow?
1:14:01>> I'm not sure that
1:14:03>> She just won the Hugo for I just read
1:14:06this book The Everlasting and
1:14:10it was wonderful. She is a gorgeous
1:14:13stylist. Her prose is really, really
1:14:15lovely and she does the first book of
1:14:18hers that I read was The Once and Future
1:14:19Witches. She does something really cool
1:14:21where she takes fables and classic story
1:14:24tropes and then puts her spin on them.
1:14:26So the The Everlasting is
1:14:29a bit Arthurian legend retold and a bit
1:14:32Brienne of Tarth from Thrones retold.
1:14:35That was really, really, really
1:14:38wonderful. I loved that. That was a
1:14:40recent read. Something from She has a a
1:14:42new short story collection coming out so
1:14:43that could be something that we could
1:14:44do.
1:14:45>> Short stories are tough to like recap
1:14:46cuz there's just so many of them.
1:14:48They're good.
1:14:49>> Stick to a story. Maybe it's just
1:14:51Dungeon Crawler Carl part two.
1:14:52>> Well, should we do There's a new
1:14:53Ishiguro coming out in the in the
1:14:55spring. I mean
1:14:58Never Let Me Go is one of my favorite
1:15:00books ever.
1:15:00>> Never Let Me Go and Remains of the Day
1:15:02are
1:15:03my two favorite and I haven't been able
1:15:04to get into anything else. I've tried.
1:15:07>> I liked I liked Klara and the Sun quite
1:15:09a bit. I'm quite nervous about the
1:15:10movie. It doesn't seem like tonally
1:15:11correct to me, but new one coming out Is
1:15:14that an excuse to do Never Let Me Go?
1:15:15Revisit that. I haven't I haven't
1:15:17revisited that in so long.
1:15:18>> I would be down. I only read it once and
1:15:19it was like oh [ __ ] but I would totally
1:15:21do that. Let's Let's Let's plan it.
1:15:23>> We We also could do some Romantasy.
1:15:27>> You know what? I would do that. I would
1:15:28for sure. You could make me read a
1:15:30Romantasy and I could be honest. And
1:15:32>> Yeah, absolutely. Safe
1:15:33>> But I bet I'll like it more. Like I'm
1:15:34shocked at how much I liked Dungeon
1:15:36Crawler Carl when I expected to just be
1:15:38like, "Okay, let me let me trash this."
1:15:40Yeah. But again, I don't I want everyone
1:15:42to read whatever they want. Read your
1:15:43romancy, whatever. I'm trying to kind of
1:15:46make you look ahead. And step up your
1:15:48game a little bit. But I don't think
1:15:50there's any stepping up from this. It's
1:15:51just like it's fun to read that, fun to
1:15:53listen to the audio book, and hopefully
1:15:55it makes you want to read more.
1:15:58Happy to do a classic as well. You said
1:15:59on House of R you're excited for the
1:16:01Blade Runner show that's coming out
1:16:022099. So am I. We could revisit some
1:16:04Philip K. Dick. That would be fun. Sure.
1:16:07I mean, I'm down for anything, man.
1:16:08Pitch pitch away and and I'm into it.
1:16:12But yeah, anytime you want to come on
1:16:13and tell me you want to have me on House
1:16:14of R. Standing invite. I would love to I
1:16:16would love to come by. We'll be this
1:16:18will be like a We're going to make all
1:16:19the other pods jealous
1:16:21of our relationship.
1:16:25Molly Ruben, thank you for coming on
1:16:27being the first of the Ringer to to come
1:16:29on the pod. Thank you for being a
1:16:30founding member, a creative director,
1:16:33and coming on the pod. I appreciate it.
1:16:36And now it's time for to be continued
1:16:38where I just tell you what's on the next
1:16:40week's episode. Next week we've got Andy
1:16:41Richter
1:16:43has written a book called Elf Unwrapped
1:16:45about the making of the movie Elf.
1:16:47And I'm going to talk to him about that.
1:16:49He co-wrote it with Aaron Caro. And I'm
1:16:51going to find out who did more work.
1:16:53See you next time. And remember, TV is
1:16:55bad, movies are bad. Give me something
1:16:58else that's bad.
1:17:01>> The Steelers bad.
1:17:03>> You can't can't do that to me. You can't
1:17:05You can't kill me with my own knife.
1:17:07>> Okay, let's agree. The Bengals and the
1:17:08Browns are bad.
1:17:10>> The Browns are actually pretty good.
1:17:12Like more than I can say Aaron Rodgers
1:17:13is bad. Would that make you okay? Aaron
1:17:15Rodgers is bad. Books are good. Read
1:17:18your books. See you next time.
1:17:20>> [music]

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