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Dr. Jason Fung: The Best Fasting Method for Visceral Fat and Insulin Resistance has Been Discovered — Transcript

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0:00Dr. Jason Fun,
0:02you have four different types of
0:04fasting. He kind of divided into four
0:06categories. And this fourth one is wild
0:08because it's almost something that
0:10people wouldn't even consider fasting.
0:12It's it's really wild, really
0:13interesting with some newer research.
0:15We'll talk about that one in a little
0:16bit. But what are your four phases of f
0:19or your four types of fasting? Yeah. So,
0:22I like to divide um into sort of like
0:24the 168 fast, which is, you know, a very
0:28popular schedule, but something you can
0:30really do every day. And then the nice
0:32part about the 16 is it slots really
0:35well into like a regular day, right?
0:37Like, you know, doing a longer fast
0:39sometimes if you go more than a day,
0:41it's difficult because there's people,
0:43oh, let's go for lunch. Oh, you're
0:45meeting clients for dinner. And then
0:46it's really awkward, right? Whereas a
0:48168 you can just slot that right in and
0:51you can do that almost every day and it
0:53doesn't even really feel like anything.
0:54Right? So most days I think it's a 168
0:57fast for me but I don't even think of it
0:59like that anymore. Right? It's almost
1:00like the regular day for me. Right? It's
1:03it's it be the day that I'm not doing a
1:06168 is sort of the exception rather than
1:08the rule. Right? So that's sort of one
1:10type of fasting. And when I talk to a
1:12lot of people like to them that's like
1:14the you know that's like a strain,
1:16right? And I'm like that's like the
1:17regular, right? And then I like to go
1:20into sort of the sort of the the the
1:22slightly higher than that. So sort of 18
1:25to sort of 24 30 hours sort of you're
1:29getting into that 24-hour period where
1:31you're sort of a one meal a day
1:33schedule. And again, it still could
1:34work, but and but it's a little stronger
1:37and you don't necessarily have to go
1:40into the, you know, the fullon, you
1:42know, longer fast because it still can
1:44fit in very easily to a normal day. Uh,
1:47and you don't have to do it sort of
1:48every day, right? So, that's one and
1:50then two and then the sort of slightly
1:52longer one where you're going sort of
1:54past that. Now, you're getting real
1:56strength because I think when you go
1:57past 24 hours, you get a lot of bang for
2:00your buck. And what I mean is that when
2:03you go past that 24-hour uh period,
2:06you're getting that sort of sleeping
2:08period, right? Which is that eight hours
2:10that's like free because you're not
2:13thinking about eating, you're sleeping,
2:15>> but at the same time, you know that
2:17you've sort of burned through a lot of
2:19the liver glycogen. So, you know, you're
2:22getting into your fat stores and and
2:24you're getting through it all night. And
2:25the great thing about going sort of 30
2:2836 hours sort of thing, right? when
2:29you're going past that is that the next
2:31day almost totally resets. I don't know
2:34if everybody feels like that, but I
2:35certainly do. So, you know, if you're a
2:38little bit hungry, you know, because you
2:40know, you haven't eaten for the whole
2:42day, you go once you go to bed, by the
2:45next day, it feels like to me it's like
2:47a reset. Like it's it's like, oh, it's
2:50like nothing happened. It's like a brand
2:52new day. I I I totally forget about
2:53that. Which is great because then I
2:55actually could do that again. And that's
2:57how you just sort of layer that on. So,
2:59I find it really really helpful if you
3:01can get past that 24 hours and that's
3:04sort of the third bucket and then I
3:06don't know if you want to go to the
3:07fourth bucket because I think that one
3:08is
3:09>> that's a really interesting one.
3:10>> That one is fascinating.
3:12>> It's going to require some dissection.
3:13So, let's let's get to that one just a
3:14little bit because that one that one's
3:16going to blow people's mind. But, uh
3:18yeah, it's interesting with the that
3:19third bucket sort of that 24 and beyond.
3:22You know, I've noticed from like a
3:24circadian sort of cue standpoint, I'm
3:27usually not hungry in the morning
3:28anyway, right? Because it's like I'm so
3:30conditioned to that. So, it's really
3:31nice if you're willing to go past 24
3:33hours.
3:34>> If you normally 168, you'll find that
3:38when you wake up in the morning on day
3:39two of a fast from a circadian
3:41perspective, you're not hungry. Like
3:43your your body is so adjusted to
3:45Exactly. So, it's so easy to get another
3:48six, seven, eight hours on you right
3:50there because you're just like, I'm not
3:51hungry anyway because from again, every
3:54biological cue in your body is saying,
3:55"No, this is your normal routine even
3:57though you didn't eat the day before."
3:59So, it's like a free lunch, you know?
4:00You're
4:00>> That's what I think. It's like it's
4:02almost like the clock has reset. It
4:04feels like you're just starting a new.
4:06So, you got all the, you know,
4:07everything. And I think it's because
4:09that in the there's in the circadian
4:11rhythm like there's a normal peak at
4:14around 5 am 4 am 5 a.m. of these
4:16counterregulatory hormones right so you
4:18got growth hormone cortisol and other
4:20things sympathetic tone and that's
4:22regulated by your circadian rhythm. So
4:25when the sun comes in it hits the you
4:26know superismic uh nucleus and it re and
4:29it stimulates all this which is going to
4:31release sort of glucose or fat or energy
4:34into the system. That's what it's
4:36supposed to do to get you ready for the
4:37day and that's what suppresses your
4:40hunger. So then by the time you wake up,
4:42even though you didn't eat the whole,
4:43you know, other day, it's like there's
4:45no hunger. It's like it's it's actually
4:47super super interesting to me cuz people
4:49always expect the opposite. They think,
4:51oh, you know, if I didn't eat all day,
4:52then I'm going to wake up ravenous. I'm
4:55going to go eat like donuts all day,
4:57right? It's like, no, it actually just
4:59feels totally normal. And the more you
5:01do it, the easier it gets. And that's
5:02what's what's super super interesting
5:05about this, right? It's like, you know,
5:07it's not like, you know, the more you
5:09go, the harder it is, right? The more
5:11you do it, the the easier it is. And I
5:13think it's just because your body gets
5:14used to sort of releasing this energy,
5:16right? Because, you know, body fat is
5:19just a store of food energy, which is
5:21calories, right? The problem is that
5:23it's locked away. Like, if you think
5:25about um somebody who has weight to
5:27lose, right? So, um my audience is
5:29mostly, you know, sort of people trying
5:31to lose weight. So, if you're like 50
5:33lbs overweight, for example,
5:36why are you hungry? Right? Because it's
5:38like, think about it. You have like
5:39300,000 calories sitting in your fat
5:42stores. So, sometimes we tell people
5:45hunger is just a liar because you
5:47actually have all that energy. So, why
5:50do you have it? So, it's it's clearly
5:52telling you something that you don't
5:53actually need. You don't need calories.
5:55You actually have calories stored. You
5:58just need to release them, right? The
6:00problem is that it's all bottled away
6:02and that your, you know, your body is
6:04saying, "Oh, I need food. I need food."
6:05But it's a liar because you just need to
6:07unlock all that and it's going to come
6:08out. And one of the keys is really the
6:11fasting, right? Because the fasting is
6:12going to sort of do a lot of good
6:14things, but a lot this includes sort of
6:17getting your insulin down, which is
6:19going to make it easier. You're going to
6:20get fat fat adapted. So, we know that
6:22there's gene changes when you're fat
6:24adapted to make it easier to metabolize
6:26fat and so on. So there's a lot of
6:28changes that happen, not all of them
6:30immediate. So insulin is very fast, but
6:32there are also genetic changes that you
6:34see when people are more fat adapted um
6:36that take sort of weeks to months to
6:38actually that to actually um you know
6:41manifest.
6:42>> What about that that second uh type that
6:45you were talking about? It's very
6:46interesting. It's almost as though the
6:48benefits of fasting kind of start
6:49kicking in after like 16 hours, right?
6:52>> Yeah. Yeah, it's what's what's
6:54mechanistically like what's happening
6:56after 16 hours? It feels as though like
6:5816 hours is great. Like you're getting
7:00loads of benefits. Awesome.
7:02>> Um
7:03>> but something shifts and what's what's
7:05shifting after that like 16 because
7:07there's such a difference. Like I've
7:08what I've recently been doing is I'm
7:10doing you know a few days per week where
7:12I actually am saying you know what I'm
7:14going to actually do like just 12 hour
7:16simple not even really fasting. I'm
7:18gonna deliberately have a breakfast, but
7:20then three or four days per week I'm
7:21going to do like 20our fasts because I'm
7:23like I want I want more of those 18 to
7:2720our windows. I want more of those per
7:28week because it seems like
7:30>> it exponentially increases after 16
7:32hours. Something that'll definitely help
7:34you with fasting before we get into more
7:36mechanisms and discussion with Jason are
7:37going to be electrolytes. One of the
7:39main things you can consume whether
7:40you're water fasting, whether you're
7:42doing some kind of other soft fast. So,
7:44I put a link down below for Element,
7:46which is a link for a free sample
7:48variety pack with any purchase, but they
7:51have a bunch of different things that
7:52you can try now. They've got their
7:54traditional electrolyte packets, but
7:56then they also have their ready to drink
7:58cans. So, 1,000 millig of sodium, 200
8:00milligs potassium, 60 milligs of
8:01magnesium, but now they have their
8:03smaller cans. So, they've got 500
8:05milligram sodium. So, if you want to go
8:06a little less salt and you just want to
8:08have something that's going to going to
8:09curb your appetite, help you get through
8:10a fast a little bit better or help
8:12remmineralize you when you're doing a
8:14longer fast, that's the way to go. So,
8:15that link is down below. It's
8:17drinklnt.com/thomas.
8:20>> Yeah, I think it's true. And and you
8:22know, they they you know, in one of my
8:24previous videos, we described like sort
8:26of the five stages of fasting, which was
8:28actually this was coined like I don't
8:31know, I think the research was from like
8:32the 70s or something. It's old like it's
8:3550y old research but basically you start
8:39with you know the feeding phase when
8:40you're eating insulin's going to go up
8:42and you're storing energy right then you
8:44go into the immediate post uh feeding
8:46phase or the initial part of the fast
8:49you've got you know as long as you're
8:51eating some carbohydrates you've got
8:52glycogen stores right your body stores
8:54energy in sort of two two sort of uh
8:57ways glycogen which is glucose it's like
9:00chains of glucose it stores it in the
9:02liver and body fat fat, right? So, as
9:05you start to fast, so getting up to
9:07around 16 hours or so, you're using
9:09glucose mostly, right? But then once you
9:13break, you know, get through those
9:14stores of glucose, then you're starting
9:17now this shift into sort of you need
9:20other fuels because you don't have any
9:22more glucose. You haven't, you can't
9:23store that much, right? So, the glucose
9:25system is is is sort of a really quick
9:29way to get energy out, right? So, you're
9:31going to take the glucose, you're going
9:32to store it in the liver, it's going to
9:33come back out. It's sort of like the
9:34money in your wallet, right? Like you
9:36can you put it in, you take it out, no
9:38problem. But the fat is more like money
9:40in the bank, right? You can store a lot,
9:43but it's a little bit hard to get to.
9:45You got to go to the ATM or you got to
9:46go to seller or whatever, right? Same
9:48thing here. You've got sort of this
9:49short latency system which has, you
9:52know, immediate in, immediate out, but
9:54limited capacity. Then you have this
9:57sort of larger capacity storage which is
10:00sort of body fat which is sort of
10:01unlimited capacity but takes a little
10:04bit more to get in and out right and
10:06that's where you know that's why
10:08sometimes you can't do you can't get at
10:10it right and that's where you know
10:11you're going to get hungry and so on you
10:12have to bridge that. So during the
10:14phases of fasting, you start by getting
10:16through your glucose phase and then the
10:19next stage is when you're transitioning
10:21from the glucose to the fat because
10:23there's actually an intermediate phase
10:24which you're starting to get into in
10:26that period you're describing and that's
10:27the gluconneogenesis.
10:29That's the next stage of the fasting. So
10:31gluconneogenesis
10:32is glucose is glucose, neo is new and
10:35genesis is uh you know creation of. So
10:38you're creating new glucose and that
10:40comes from your protein. And people say,
10:43"Oh, that's a bad thing." You know, oh,
10:45you're breaking down muscle. This was
10:46the old thinking. It turns out that may
10:49may be the uh, you know, period where
10:51you're getting a lot of autophagy,
10:53right? Where you're actually breaking
10:55down. Yes, you've got some protein
10:56coming down, but it's also these
10:57subcellular organs and stuff, stuff you
11:00don't actually need. So, you're breaking
11:02that down and you're turning this
11:04protein into glucose because you can't
11:06actually activate your fats uh yet. So
11:09as you go it's so so you start by
11:11burning glucose then you start by this
11:14gluconneogenesis which is sort of this
11:1618 20 24-hour window and I think it's
11:19going to be the same window that you're
11:20going to see a lot of autophagy and then
11:22you go into this sort of fat uh burning
11:26stage and that's the sort of fat burning
11:28and protein sparing. So you turn down
11:30your gluconioenesis. So the
11:32gluconioenesis goes up for a short
11:34period of time. But again, this is a
11:36very, you know, when you think about the
11:38human body, it's so smart. Like it
11:40honestly is so smart because then it's
11:42like, okay, well, you can't burn glucose
11:44forever, right? Like you can't I mean
11:46burn protein into glucose forever. Like
11:48protein is functional tissue, right?
11:51It's not all functional tissue because
11:53remember not all protein is muscle,
11:55right? People talk about lean mass, but
11:57there's a lot of connective tissue,
11:58right? skin like people get this flappy
12:01excess skin. It's like well you know
12:03that's protein actually that needs to be
12:04broken down connective tissue that's all
12:06needs to be broken down but then your
12:09body then turns off the gluconioenesis
12:12you get into this protein sparing mode
12:14and then you start burning fat. So once
12:16you get into this longer period then
12:18you're mostly burning fat. You still get
12:20a little bit of glucose that you need
12:22right but most of your body is now using
12:24fat. So virtually every organ in your
12:26body except the brain can use fat as a
12:29fuel. And uh what happens of course is
12:31that the fat goes to the liver gets
12:33turned into ketones and the ketones
12:35start supplying your brain with most of
12:37the energy but not all. So you still
12:38need a little bit of glucose and you get
12:40that from the breakdown of the glycerol.
12:42The glycerol is that sort of the one
12:45backbone with the three the
12:46triglycerides sorry is the one back
12:48glycerol backbone with the three
12:50triglycerides. The triglycerides are fat
12:52and the uh glycerol gets turned into
12:54glucose. So, so the it's it's such a
12:58such a beautiful system.
13:01>> No, it really flows.
13:02>> It's it's it's designed for everything.
13:04It's not it's not by accident. Which is
13:06why I always think, you know, people
13:08make these sort of assumptions that the
13:10human body is incredibly stupid, right?
13:12It's like, oh, calories in, calories
13:14out, like you eat an extra 100 calories,
13:16it's just going to get dumped into your
13:17fat like, you know, willy-nilly. Like
13:20nothing happens by accident in the human
13:22body, it's actually so intricate and
13:25smart, right? And then people, you know,
13:28think it's so stupid, but like even this
13:30period of gluconioenesis, which people
13:32used to say, oh, it's really, really
13:34bad. Now people are changing. They're
13:36thinking, well, maybe it's the
13:37autophagy. But the thing is that
13:40right after that growth hormone, growth
13:42hormone like goes way up, right? So if
13:45you look at uh even up to 5 days uh
13:48fasting, you get these massive growth
13:51hormone spikes. So the minute you start
13:53eating again, the minute you start
13:55refeeding, you're going to build back
13:57the muscle you need. So what you're
13:59going to do is you're going to break
14:00down the old protein and rebuild the
14:03protein you need, which is perfect,
14:06right? Because you're now it's a process
14:08of cellular rejuvenation, right? You get
14:10rid of the old stuff, rebuild the new
14:12stuff. So what we're describing here is
14:15like these sort of four buckets of
14:17fasting is roughly you know corresponds
14:19to these stages of fasting. You're
14:21seeing this transition and it's a
14:23transition from sort of glucose as
14:25energy protein glucose fat mix. That's
14:29that transition stage
14:31>> and that's where you start to see the
14:32differences and then as you go longer
14:34you're getting to the fat the protein
14:36sparing sort of fat burning stage. It's
14:39interesting because if you pay close
14:41attention when you're fasting, you can
14:43almost feel around 18 19 hours. That
14:47often times is the most difficult period
14:50for a lot of people because it's like
14:51you're you're no longer riding the dural
14:53rhythms as much. You're you've got a lot
14:55of extra external cues telling you to
14:57eat and you haven't quite gotten into
14:59the ketone phase where your appetite's
15:01suppressed. So that is typically if
15:03there's going to be a hard point, I find
15:04that's the hardest point, which actually
15:05makes sense because it almost sounds as
15:08though it's when your body is
15:09transitioning and it's like if there's
15:11no one definitive fuel source. It's it's
15:14trying to find its footing and you can
15:16feel it. And I can't remember who it was
15:18years ago that said that sometimes like
15:20um the gray area is a good place in
15:22fasting and like putting yourself there
15:24sometimes in that transition and just
15:26letting yourself stay there because it's
15:27kind of hard. Yeah.
15:28>> Um it's actually such an interesting
15:31sort of phase because I think you're
15:33right. It actually coincides. I mean
15:35that is always a struggle, right? So
15:36when you're going from 16 to 24, right?
15:39Uh and 24 onwards, it's usually that
15:42sort of dinner period, right? On a day,
15:45it's always that dinner period. And I
15:47think it's because um one, I think
15:49you're undergoing that transition. So
15:50you're you're sort of finishing up the
15:52glycogen, which is that easy to get sort
15:55of energy. So, that's relatively easy to
15:57get up to 16, right? But you're also
16:00running into sort of this um normal
16:04daily sort of most people have eaten
16:06dinner every day for like their whole
16:08life, right? So, you've got this sort of
16:10conditioning where you've uh you know,
16:12you're used to it. You've got a habit.
16:14So, you're expecting to eat almost,
16:16right? And that's the sort of
16:17conditioned hunger that I talk about in
16:18the hunger code is like this sort of
16:20social, you know, oh, it's dinner time
16:23sort of thing. So, you're almost
16:24expecting it. So it's sort of a double
16:25whammy in that you've got like not only
16:28this sort of phase of fasting that's
16:30doing there but also this sort of social
16:33sort of um you know impetus to to eat at
16:37around that time. I mean, other
16:38countries are different. Like some eat
16:40very late, right? In Spain, they eat at
16:41like 10:00 or something, right? So,
16:44>> yeah, it's, you know, I a couple years
16:45ago, I was doing like a little
16:47experiment because I was very curious on
16:49that whole uh transitional period there.
16:52And I was like, what if I did like a 20
16:55or 24-hour fast and then did like a
16:58miniature refeed? That was my deal is
17:00just by what you're saying was like, how
17:02do I actually keep myself in that gray
17:04zone? just a little like a small refeed
17:06just enough to like kick myself out of
17:07the fasted state but then me put me back
17:10into that gluconioenesis state again
17:13>> I had no way of really measuring it but
17:14I was curious how I and one thing I can
17:16say for certain is uh I definitely
17:19leaned out even more but I think that
17:20was simply because I was able to do more
17:22frequent longer fasts so I think that
17:24was probably aside but I was curious
17:27just to that point it was just like okay
17:29what happens if I maybe do like a
17:31miniature refeed go 24 hours don't
17:33fullon refeed and break the fast
17:34entirely and keep going, but maybe have,
17:37you know, a little bit of macadamia nuts
17:39or in most cases a little bit of
17:40protein, right? So, just enough couple
17:42hundred calories and then go right back
17:44into it. And I would find like, okay,
17:45yeah, two hours later I was ravenous,
17:48>> but that would subside after another
17:50hour or so. And I was kind of at least I
17:52was telling myself I'm like, I'm putting
17:54myself into that sort of struggle zone.
17:56Yeah. Almost like a masochistic kind of
17:58thing. But if it seemed to be it seemed
18:00to be interesting because I that
18:02transition seemed very important to me.
18:04Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is. I think
18:06it is. And I think that's where the
18:07transition gets easier the sort of more
18:09times you do it. So like anything else,
18:12right? I mean, you you you struggle at
18:13that zone, but then the more you do it,
18:15it's just the easier it is. And I think
18:17it was interesting because years ago
18:19they did this study where they uh did
18:21muscle biopsies actually of people as
18:24they were sort of uh going I can't
18:26remember the exact reason because
18:28fasting wasn't big back then, but this
18:30this was studied in the '9s. So I don't
18:32they did muscle biopsies and they
18:34studied the genes of these muscles and
18:36then you know as they were sort of
18:38transitioning to a very low carbohydrate
18:40diet I think it was at the time they
18:42would find that the um the the genes
18:45that were necessary for fat burning. So
18:48you know the muscle cells they can they
18:51can metabolize fat for energy but the
18:55mechanism that like the the the the
18:57genes and the gene products were not
18:59there to actually do it. So they turn it
19:01on, but this would take like a couple
19:02weeks to really turn on because it's not
19:04an instant process, right? So it's like,
19:06okay, so as I remember thinking, well,
19:09that's going to make the transition so
19:10much easier, right? Because you're going
19:12to be able if you have all the sort of
19:15machinery to burn fat. That means you
19:19could actually switch from glucose to
19:21fat really easily. It takes a few weeks
19:24to do it, but that's what they're
19:26calling the metabolic flexibility,
19:28right? How easy is it for you to go from
19:31glucose burning to fat burning? Well, if
19:33you never do fat burning, like if you
19:34never fast and you never do fat burning,
19:36well, it's going to be hard, right? And
19:39that's not just a psychological thing.
19:41It's because you don't have the gene,
19:43you know, machinery that to to actually
19:45metabolize the fat efficiently, right?
19:48So, therefore, it's going to be much
19:50more difficult. You're not going to have
19:51that metabolic uh flexibility to sort of
19:54go from one to the other and back. And
19:57of course a lot of research now is
19:59showing that that metapholic flexibility
20:01is actually super super important for
20:03overall health. So superant interest
20:05it's it's like it it all ties sort of
20:08ties together in a very very interesting
20:10interesting way. And it's like anything
20:12else, right? You need to stress the body
20:14a little bit. And you know stress
20:16sometimes gets a bad name but exercise
20:18is a stress. If you don't stress your
20:20system then you never develop the
20:24capability to deal with it. And fasting
20:26is a stress. You're stressing your body
20:28by not eating. But in the long term, and
20:30maybe it's uncomfortable and sure, but
20:32it's no different than running a long
20:34distance, you get micro tears in your
20:36muscles. You rebuild them, right? You
20:38rebuild them stronger to to handle it,
20:40right? And that's that's one of the
20:42things. So if you're if you're stressing
20:44your body uh in this way, it's really a
20:46form of hormesis, which is again another
20:50super interesting concept. uh hormesis
20:53meaning like if you take poison in small
20:55doses it sort of loses its effect and it
20:57makes you stronger sort of thing right
20:58so uh stress in small doses is actually
21:01not a bad thing it's actually very very
21:03necessary and it's like you know if if
21:05if and it's actually true for so many
21:07things right if people who you know have
21:10a silver spoon and never experience
21:12adversity they're useless when you know
21:14it comes to things and then somebody
21:16who's sort of used to it is like ah they
21:18sail right through right so that that
21:19that bit of stress is actually what you
21:22need whether it's in a physical sense
21:23like you know uh exercise or whether
21:26it's like in a metabolic sense right you
21:28got to stress yourself then you develop
21:29the flexibility
21:30>> that's so well said because I feel like
21:32sometimes it has to be the other way too
21:34in terms of um you know for years I
21:36spent so much time fasting and was
21:38extremely low carb for you know like 10
21:40years of my life then I realized that if
21:43I did have carbohydrates my glucose
21:45would skyrocket and I wasn't I was
21:46losing to a certain degree metabolic
21:49flexibility the other way I had gone so
21:51far and I'm still a very low carb
21:53fasting guy. That's how I am. But it's
21:56what I realize is that I do occasionally
21:58need to actually dip my toe in that
22:00water too because metabolic flexibility
22:02goes both ways. And if someone is
22:05metabolically dysfunctional or they're
22:06insulin resistant, it's a different
22:08situation, you know, then the
22:09carbohydrates might be problematic for
22:10them. Um, but I realized after 10 years,
22:13I was no longer, you know, having this
22:14mitochondrial dysfunction I was dealing
22:16with for so long. I was like, "Wait a
22:17minute. It actually in order to maintain
22:20a level of glucose tolerance, I actually
22:22do need to like throttle and go periods
22:25of extended fasting and then periods
22:26where I have a moderate amount of
22:28carbohydrates to sort of allow my body
22:30to actually adapt to that as well." So,
22:32it's kind of funny how, you know, no
22:34matter where you sit on it, sometimes
22:35you have these like you got to do things
22:37that stress you either way, right?
22:39>> Yeah, that's right. And I've I've
22:41actually never been fully like keto for
22:43like years and years, right? I I I sort
22:46of do it as it goes, right? And
22:48sometimes I will have them a bit more,
22:51sometimes a bit less. Great.
22:52>> And I think it's not just the
22:53carbohydrates because the there
22:55definitely is you definitely can eat
22:58carbohydrates and still not spike your
23:01insulin. Like it's the it's the real
23:03spike in insulin that's the problem. And
23:04I I I talk about this in uh you know
23:07about the homeostatic hunger. talk about
23:09these spikes because one of the things
23:11that people don't talk about enough I
23:13think is that it's the speed of the
23:14absorption that makes a huge difference
23:17right so if you take a natural
23:19carbohydrate you know sweet potato or
23:22something like that well the absorption
23:24is actually relatively slow right so if
23:27you eat beans or something that's that's
23:29still a carbohydrate but the the glucose
23:32sort of goes up slowly if you eat white
23:34bread which is sort of ultrarocessed and
23:36very finely ground flour you get this
23:38instant spike. So even though it's the
23:40same amount of carbohydrate, the insulin
23:42response and the speed of that response
23:44is different and that makes a huge
23:45difference. So if you think about it in
23:47other settings, you think about say
23:50nicotine for example. So if you smoke,
23:53what happens is that the nicotine goes
23:55into from your lungs into the pulmonary
23:57blood vessels, right? So you're getting
23:59that instant hit right into the blood
24:01vessels. If you eat nicotine, the
24:04absorption is way slower. So it's way
24:06less addictive, right? And that's why
24:07you use nicotine gum.
24:09>> Yeah.
24:09>> So, it's the same nicotine. It might be
24:11you can take the same dose of nicotine,
24:13but the speed of absorption makes a
24:15massive difference. It's it's why you
24:17inject heroin. It's why people sniff
24:19cocaine because it goes directly into
24:20the blood vessels in the nose. But it's
24:22the same thing with carbohydrate. So,
24:24taking a natural carbohydrate,
24:26>> I always snort my carbohydrate.
24:28[laughter]
24:29>> I like to mainline it.
24:33But the speed that it goes through
24:36actually makes a massive difference. It
24:38makes a difference in these other
24:39things. But here it makes a difference
24:41too because you see that when you eat a
24:42certain amount of carbohydrate and you
24:44slow down. So you can compare two foods
24:46actually and they've done this which I
24:48actually think is really interesting. So
24:50they take uh Dr. Lewig who's um you know
24:53a really fascinating guy. He took um
24:55instant oats and steel cut oats and he
24:59compared them. So, same food, same
25:02calories, same carbohydrates. The only
25:04difference is how they were processed.
25:07And of course, when you take the instant
25:08oats, you get this massive spike in
25:11insulin. So, your glycemic index is much
25:12higher. You get this massive spike in uh
25:15glucose, insulin, and what happens is
25:18that you you it makes a difference later
25:21on because you have this massive spike
25:22in insulin. Insulin is going to tell
25:24your body to store all these calories as
25:26as as fat, right? or as store it. So all
25:30of that gets stored and then you get
25:31hungry later on. So what they found is
25:33that when you eat the instant oats, you
25:35eat much more at lunch afterwards
25:37compared to the steel cut oats even
25:39though they're the same food. And
25:41they've done other studies where they
25:42take compare apple slices to apple
25:45sauce. And the applesauce was made by
25:47simply taking the apple, baking it, and
25:49pureeing it. So again, same food, same
25:52calories, same macronutrients,
25:55everything is the same because you're
25:56not adding or taking away. Huge
25:59difference in what happens because again
26:01with the whole apples, it stays in your
26:03stomach longer. So gastroit time was
26:06much much longer. Like it took longer to
26:08go from the stomach into the intestines
26:11compared to the applesauce and a huge
26:14difference in glucose and insulin.
26:16Right? So glycemic index much lower
26:17insulin like 20 25% lower but same food
26:22right. So if you simply focus on the
26:24food itself that's only you're only
26:25getting part of the answer. How that
26:28food is processed makes a difference
26:30because the thing is that if you look at
26:33um you know how you gain weight people
26:34think it goes from say calories to
26:36weight gain like that's not what
26:38happens. It goes from food which
26:40contains calories and you know
26:42macronutrients but it first must be
26:44digested which means it goes into the
26:46stomach. Stomach churns it around mixes
26:48it with other stuff. Then it has to go
26:50into the small intestine where it gets
26:51absorbed into the bloodstream. When it
26:54gets into the bloodstream it affects
26:55your hormonal levels which then affect
26:57your weight gain. And every step of that
27:00that pathway can be influenced you know.
27:04So there's, you know, if you eat
27:06carbohydrates alone versus carbohydrates
27:09with other things or carbohydrates with
27:11vinegar makes a big difference. If you
27:14eat um the carbohydrates first versus
27:17carbohydrates last, it makes a big
27:19difference. So all of these different
27:20things make a difference to the ultimate
27:24hormonal response, which is what you're
27:26really interested in.
27:28>> Interesting. And I want to come back to
27:30all of that because that actually plays
27:32in a little bit to this fourth type of
27:34fasting. I think we've dangled the
27:35carrot long enough for people. Um
27:37because this one's exciting and I think
27:39it kind of plays in a little bit because
27:40there's some there's some actual
27:41calories involved to this kind of
27:43fasting. So what is this this fourth
27:45type?
27:45>> So the fourth type is sort of this more
27:48extended fasting but not necessarily a
27:51full sort of classic water only fast,
27:55right? And this is sort of once you're
27:57getting past that 36 hours, you're
27:59getting sort of 72 hours or 3 4 5 days,
28:03I think you start to see differences.
28:05And I hadn't I haven't talked about it a
28:08lot. Uh because, you know, there wasn't
28:11a lot of data, but now there's starting
28:13to be a lot of data with um something
28:16called the fasting mimicking diet. For
28:18example, they have they do a 5day fast,
28:22but it's not a full fast. you can
28:24actually take some calories during the
28:25fast just as you used to do. Um, and
28:28it's it's somewhere around 500 to 800
28:31calories uh on each of those days. So,
28:33it's sort of like uh sort of um this
28:36period where you're still getting a
28:38little bit of nutrients, right? You're
28:40getting a bit of calories, but you're
28:41going longer. And I think the data is
28:45actually fascinating because they're
28:47starting to show super like not only are
28:50you going to get the benefits of the
28:51fasting, weight loss, diabetes, and so
28:53on, but they're studying things like,
28:56you know, biological age and um cancer,
29:00like it's having effects on cancer
29:02progression and um and also
29:05inflammation, which is so interesting.
29:07like it's like okay because inflammation
29:09is one of these things that causes a lot
29:12of problems and um you know there's no
29:15easy way to do it like you might take
29:17anti-inflammatories and stuff but
29:19they're not they're they're like a
29:21they're not a great fix right so if you
29:22have tendinitis or something it's not a
29:24great fix but it turns out that you can
29:27actually affect some of these autoimmune
29:30cells autoimmunity and we've been
29:32hearing about it for years so you know
29:34at the fasting method where we help
29:36people fasting there'd Tons of people
29:37would say to us, you know, my thyroid
29:40got all better, right? And there's this
29:42thyroid disease called Hashimoto's
29:44thyroiditis, which is a very common type
29:45of thyroid condition. It's autoimmune.
29:48And as they started fasting, they all
29:50noticed that, hey, it was getting a lot
29:52better. So, we kept we heard about it
29:54over and over, but there's no data. So,
29:55we're like, well, we're not really sure,
29:57but if it's helping you, then that's
29:58great. But now they're starting to see a
30:00lot of data that hey, if you're taking
30:02this sort of extended fast with, you
30:05know, it's a it's a it's a bit of a
30:06modified fast. Then there seems to be
30:10this sort of remodulation of the immune
30:12system. And again, to me, that makes a
30:14lot of sense because as you're going
30:15longer, your body's really saying, "Oh,
30:18well, I'm not getting any nutrients, so
30:20I need to shut everything down that's
30:22not essential." Right? Because that's
30:23what you do if you're, you know, you're
30:25hunkering down. So one of the things is
30:28like oh well maybe we need to sort of
30:30reposition this immune system because
30:32this is energyintensive right so
30:34>> especially immune system is crazy energy
30:36>> yes exactly so let's let's move some of
30:39this because we can still maintain a
30:41little bit of immunity but we don't need
30:43all of this let's sort of reposition
30:45ourselves right and I'll tell you a
30:48story because it was it was to me crazy
30:52because so I've been f I I've been doing
30:55fasting but I've done mostly shorter
30:56fasting because that's where a lot of
30:58the data lived, right? But recently
31:01I had a lot of problems with Achilles
31:02tendinitis. So my Achilles were killing
31:05me and I don't know why. I don't even
31:07know what set it off but you know if I
31:09played basketball or something like for
31:11two days it was like agony. So if I
31:13played once a week it was like oh this
31:15is really tough. So I tried everything.
31:18I did stretching, I did physio, I did
31:20ultrasound. I did all kinds of uh stuff.
31:23I took anti-inflammatories and stuff.
31:25Um, and my friend was like, "Well, you
31:27know what you should do? You should try
31:29this longer fast like these four or five
31:31day fasts because then you can really
31:32pump up your growth hormone and stuff,
31:34right?" And he had used it for his
31:36tennis elbow. And I thought, well, you
31:39know, I've been suffering with it for
31:40about a year, right? I said, "Sure, why
31:42not?" So, I did this sort of longer
31:44fast, which was I still took a little
31:46bit. What I do is once a day I take a
31:48little bit of vegetables. So, and I take
31:50bone broth as well. So, you're getting a
31:51bit of that protein, but again, like
31:53you, 500ish calories, right? And and not
31:56super difficult, right? Um, but like
31:59right after it was like 70% better. I
32:02was like, whoa, this is insane, right?
32:07And then I thought, well, maybe it's
32:08just a coincidence, right? Yes, I'd been
32:10suffering it for a year, but I thought,
32:12oh, maybe it's a coincidence. So, about
32:13a month and a half later, I'm like,
32:15let's do it again and see. Same thing,
32:17like 70% better. And then after the
32:20third one, boy, it's gone. And I haven't
32:22had it since. I'm like, this is insane.
32:24Like, I'd been suffering with this for
32:26like a year. And like there is no there
32:29was no like even if you search online,
32:32there's just no
32:33>> Yeah.
32:33>> No, nobody talks about this sort of
32:35stuff. I had only done it because I know
32:36about a bit about the, you know, the
32:38physiology of fasting. I'm like, this is
32:40insane. Like, you know, a lot of people
32:43have this tendinitis, tennis elbow,
32:45Achilles tendonitis, and it's like,
32:46that's crazy. And there's no I mean
32:49there's not enough people to really
32:51establish a good cohort to you know so
32:52you're not you're not going to find a
32:54lot of those I mean you some of Walter
32:55Longo's stuff um but he's you know
32:58>> it's it's that that's that's it right
33:00we're seeing those kinds of fasting
33:01mimicking studies and then when it comes
33:04down to like tendonitis it's like how do
33:06you how do we measure this other than
33:09you know just that just uh you know an
33:11anecdotal experience we could reverse
33:14engineer and try to figure out the
33:15mechanisms you and I were talking
33:16offline before we were filming about
33:18that and it's, you know, it's probably
33:19like you mentioned the same thing we're
33:20seeing with autoimmune conditions. It's
33:22perhaps a, you know, a rehoming of those
33:24immune cells and ultimately a modulation
33:27where the immune system is
33:28recalibrating.
33:28>> Yeah. You know, it's getting like a
33:30reset
33:30>> and it's a lot of anecdotal data because
33:32and you know to me it's it's
33:34interesting.
33:36>> So that was a couple year like a couple
33:38years ago. Then I got a bit of like
33:40about six months ago I got a bit of knee
33:42tendinitis like sort of and again out of
33:44the blue. I don't know what caused it. I
33:46I I do the same normal amount and then
33:49so that time I was like as soon as you
33:51know I didn't have anything on my
33:52schedule you know like social meetings
33:54and stuff I was like okay I'm going to
33:56do another fast I told my wife I'm like
33:58okay I'm doing it cuz I'm getting a bit
34:00of this it's starting to really bother
34:01me and like boom gone right it's like
34:04okay so I suffered like for you know a
34:07week at the most right as opposed to a
34:09whole year I was like this is insane and
34:12and to some extent you might say well it
34:14could be placebo effect and I'm It sure
34:16could be placebo effect, right? Placebo
34:18effect is very strong. On the other
34:20hand, we're hearing it over and over.
34:22And to me, it's like I don't even care
34:25if it's placebo effect or not.
34:27>> Yeah.
34:28>> My tendonitis is gone, right? So, you
34:31know, why do I care? Like people will
34:34say, "Oh, where's your evidence?" It's
34:35like,
34:36>> you know, on the one hand,
34:37scientifically, yes, you should try and
34:39do a trial. On the other hand, I'm the
34:41one suffering it. Like if I wait the 15
34:43years it's going to take to get data on
34:45this, I'm like going to be an invalid,
34:48right? If I can't exercise or do
34:50anything because I'm flaring up my
34:52tendinitis, you know, every single time
34:55I go, it's like that is not going to
34:57work, right? I'll have other issues,
34:58right? If you don't move, like, you
35:00know, very quickly your body just starts
35:02to, you know, we see this in people with
35:04bed rest. If you stop moving,
35:06like it's not good, right? Especially as
35:08you get older, right? It's it's really
35:10really important. So, and it's really
35:12important because it's the older people
35:13who are getting the tendinitis, the knee
35:14tendonitis, the shoulder, the berscitis,
35:17all that kind of thing, right? So, it's
35:18actually doubly important because the
35:20young people are not getting the
35:21tendinitis, arthritis, right? And
35:23they're the ones moving. But when you
35:25get to like, you know, your middle age,
35:2750s, 60s, 70s, and you stop moving, boy,
35:30it's it's it's a problem.
35:33>> What do you think the the mechanism is
35:35with these like fasting mimicking sort
35:37of approaches? cuz you know you're
35:39obviously still suppressing insulin so
35:41that that whole equation is still valid
35:43but what do you think is is different in
35:45your opinion or what does some of the
35:46research say?
35:47>> Yeah, it's it's it's they measure all
35:50these sort of um things. So, you know,
35:52they measure things like CRP which is an
35:54inflammatory marker which is you know
35:57sort of you know it could be an
35:58anti-inflammatory effect. So, I think
36:00that is a super sort of interesting
36:03piece of it. So the low insulin I think
36:05can play into the weight losses, can
36:06play into the, you know, the diabetes
36:09with the cancer because there's a bit of
36:10data with cancer as well. And I just saw
36:14this in in um like two weeks ago or
36:18something. There was another study
36:19looking at using fasting in conjunction
36:21with chemotherapy and it seemed to
36:23improve the effect quite a bit. I posted
36:25it on Twitter. Anyway, it's it's like,
36:28oh, that's really really interesting.
36:30And it's excuse me
36:34to some extent it's also due to the fact
36:37that insulin is a very potent growth
36:39factor right. So IGF-1 which is insulin
36:42like growth factor one is a very
36:44important growth hormone and it's not by
36:47accident. So insulin which we all think
36:49of as a metabolic hormone started if you
36:52look at primitive organisms they go back
36:54an evolutionary time. Insulin was not
36:57developed as a metabolic hormone. It was
37:00developed as a growth hormone. But what
37:02happens is that as we became
37:04multisellular organisms, you needed to
37:06be able to link very tightly the
37:09available nutrients to growth, right?
37:11Because you don't want to grow like you
37:13don't want it to grow when there's no
37:14food. You're going to die, right? So if
37:16there's no food, you need to shut down
37:18growth. So what you know, nature did was
37:21it linked and used the exact same
37:24mechanism to denote growth and nutrient
37:28sensing, right? So the nutrient sensor
37:30insulin is also a very potent growth
37:33hormone and actually holds true for mTor
37:35as well. So mTor, which is very popular,
37:37I think about eight or 10 years ago, uh
37:39you know, mTor signaling uh was in
37:43studied very heavily in cancer, right?
37:45because there's mTor inhibitors that
37:46they use for cancer. Um, and the thing
37:48that's interesting is that it too is a
37:51nutrient sensor and it's it senses
37:53mostly protein but it's also a progrowth
37:56hormone. Right? So exactly the same
37:58thing that you see with mTor, which is
37:59that it's not only a nutrient sensor,
38:01but it's also a growth hormone. So IGF-1
38:05has been linked really to all the
38:07diseases. So cancer, heart disease, all
38:10of that. you get this sort of it's not
38:11quite a U but you get this when it's
38:13very low it's bad when it's very high
38:15it's bad right and it's it's sort of
38:17like this shape like it's you have this
38:20optimal one in the middle and then you
38:22go too low of course you're not getting
38:23enough growth signaling but then when
38:25you get too much growth signaling which
38:27is sort of the case uh that these days
38:29when insulin levels tend to be very high
38:31and that's due to like easy food abil
38:34food availability but also like people
38:37are eating for different reasons
38:38including you
38:40for you know for pleasure and eating
38:42because of just social conditioning but
38:45you get this very steep rise where on
38:48the other side where when IGF-1 goes up
38:50then your mortality from all of these uh
38:52diseases diabetes, heart disease,
38:54strokes and all this stuff goes way up.
38:56So I think it could be from the insulin
38:58but also not just insulin but the growth
39:00part of insulin because you know
39:02everybody assumes growth is good but
39:04really when you're older growth is not
39:06good. you don't want anything to grow
39:09sort of unchecked. So the the growth
39:12signaling I think is important and then
39:14I think the inflammation part you know
39:16to me is almost the most fascinating
39:18part because it's a little bit on the
39:20unexpected side. Although when you look
39:22back you might say well you know we
39:23could have you know maybe we should have
39:25thought that that was inevitable but you
39:27know when you when you sort of attack it
39:31on so many different levels and remember
39:33we're not doing it like every single day
39:35right because then you're going to get
39:37into the problem of you're fasting all
39:38the time you're not getting enough
39:40nutrients or proteins or whatever right
39:41you're talking about doing episodically
39:44stressing your body right same thing if
39:46you overtrain like we all know
39:48overtraining is a big thing right that's
39:49why you have load management in like the
39:52NBA and stuff even though the league is
39:55trying to you know really put a kaibos
39:57on it for sure
39:58>> but overexertion overtraining is super
40:02bad well over fasting can probably be
40:04the same thing right it's you don't want
40:06to you want to episodically stress
40:08yourself because it's this idea of
40:09hormesis but you don't want to just keep
40:12doing it forever without end because
40:14that also is not good and that's
40:15probably to to some point like your your
40:17carbohydrate uh experience too right
40:20like you go very low, but maybe you
40:22should once in a while just make sure
40:23that you're able to handle the glucose
40:25and all that.
40:27>> It's almost as though with like fasting
40:28mimicking you're you're able to get
40:32these benefits of a longer fast without
40:34like this chronic severe deprivation
40:38signaling. It's like you you you give
40:40just enough of a signal to almost I'm
40:43just going to say a collo like in a
40:44colloquial way like I mean you're sort
40:45of like telling your body it's safe,
40:47right? like just enough to where you're
40:49not skyrocketing and you're not going
40:52into such a severe deficit where maybe
40:54there's a misinterpretation of the
40:57alarms that are going off in the body,
40:58right? you're like just giving it enough
41:00to say because I think we were talking
41:01about earlier there's there's a little
41:03bit of a benefit to I've always I've
41:05always been a big stickler stickler for
41:06how you break a fast because I I firmly
41:08believe and there's not there is more
41:10data now but I I really believe you know
41:1210 years ago or so that how you break
41:14your fast is very very important because
41:16you're in such a
41:19such a fragile state in a good way like
41:21you have you have the you have the
41:23ability to really
41:24>> do some damage or continue the benefits
41:27of a gas right And I think like if you
41:29look at like even the gut stem cell
41:31research, like during a fast you get
41:33like a proliferation of gut stem cells.
41:35Well, those stem cells have an effect
41:37during the fast, but they really go to
41:38work once you refuel a little bit.
41:41>> So it's like, okay, well, why would you
41:42want to eat a bunch of emulsifiers and a
41:44bunch of garbage that's just going to
41:45destroy your mucosal layer at that
41:46point? But I think the same holds true.
41:48This is pure speculation, but it's
41:50theory.
41:52when you are fasting and then you
41:53occasionally have this like little bit
41:55of food that's still within the realm of
41:58you know fasting mimicking approved
42:00foods like veggies, some certain fats
42:01and things like that.
42:02>> Yeah.
42:03>> It's like you're telling the body just
42:05enough of a growth signal to like put
42:08some of this stuff to work and then
42:09boom, you go back into the fast and it
42:12has the available energy to put those
42:14things to use. Does that make sense?
42:16>> Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean I
42:17think it's it's just like exercise,
42:20right? You can't just go 100% and then
42:22just keep going 100%, right? You got to,
42:24>> you know, take it back a notch when
42:26you're going longer, right? When you're
42:27going short, sure, you can do that. But
42:29when you're going longer, you can't just
42:30go sort of fullon pedal to the metal
42:33because then everything just goes down
42:35and you're going to put less stress on
42:36the body because it is a stressor,
42:38right? And I think it's actually more
42:40than that because what I find, so when I
42:43do longer fasts and I've done the
42:44fiveday water fasts, too, right? And
42:46really the big problem with that is
42:50never the sort of physical hunger,
42:52right? That's the homeostatic hunger I
42:54talk about. I never am bothered by that
42:58because I know that that'll subside,
43:00right? So when I get hungry, it's the
43:02sort of hedonic hunger. Like it's by day
43:06three I'm always like oh you know I'm
43:09not actually hungry and in that my
43:11stomach is fine and stuff but I'll see
43:13something like oo I would really like to
43:16eat that because I know that it's
43:19pleasurable because eating is
43:20pleasurable let's face it right so it's
43:22not that and and by giving it just a
43:23little bit you sort of really not just
43:26from a physical side but from an
43:28emotional side too you're like okay I'll
43:30have a bit so I'll have like say steamed
43:32broccoli or something like that right
43:34And it's like this broccoli tastes so
43:36good, right? And it's like that's
43:38amazing because that takes it down. So
43:40if you can maintain sort of 80 90% of
43:42the benefits or maybe more like maybe it
43:45does even better, but it's 50% as
43:47difficult. That's a huge win. Yeah.
43:49>> Right. So it's like it's not just the
43:50physical side. Uh but it's also the and
43:53and this is I think why fasting is
43:55actually so powerful especially this
43:57sort of fourth type of stuff that where
44:00the research is just coming out, right?
44:01I don't think I talked about it much in
44:03the first, you know, five years. Yeah.
44:06>> Right. Because honestly, you know,
44:08coming out it was people thought 12
44:12hours
44:13>> was too much. And I'm like, 12 hours?
44:17That's like not stopping eating at 7 and
44:20eating breakfast at 7. That's what you
44:22should have been doing every single day.
44:23But I was getting attacked all over the
44:25place. Oh, 12 hours, that's too much.
44:27I'm like, what are you talking about?
44:29Right? So, that was a struggle. So
44:30that's why I never talked about any of
44:32the longer stuff. But now the data is
44:33all coming out. People are getting used
44:35to the idea, but it cuts across all
44:37these three different types of hunger
44:39because one, your homeostatic hunger,
44:41your physical hunger, it's going down.
44:42Your emotional hunger, it's it's working
44:44a bit better. But then the condition
44:46like all these associations we have with
44:48food. Once you start doing these longer
44:50fasts, you're breaking them, right?
44:51Because you don't always have to eat at
44:53lunchtime. You don't always have to eat
44:54when you, you know, sit in the car.
44:56you'll always have to eat when you're
44:57watching a movie because you've set that
45:00you you you've done it without. So
45:01therefore, you're you're training
45:03yourself. You're creating these new
45:05habits. You're breaking old habits, bad
45:07habits of, you know, eating, you know,
45:09as soon as you get in the car or
45:10whatever, and you're creating these new
45:12habits where you're going to do
45:13something else, right? So, it's so
45:15important because it's it sort of cuts
45:16across multiple levels of hunger. So,
45:19it's it's it's sort of, you know, to me
45:21it's it's really like a gamecher. Like
45:24it's to me it's like okay I still do the
45:26shorter stuff so I still you know make
45:28sure I have sort of these other types of
45:30fasts the 16s the 24s the occasional
45:35excuse me the occasional you know 30 and
45:38so and then I'll throw in once in a
45:40while the longer ones and sometimes I'll
45:42do them more often when I get a lot of
45:44you know I get a lot of inflammation I'm
45:46like okay I'm you know I don't want to
45:48live like this it's painful right it's
45:50like oh
45:51>> it's so uh you know I've
45:53numerous guests. Most uh recently Dr.
45:57Domagugustino was talking about you know
45:59he does like 300 calories to 500
46:01calories of sardines. Um that's his sort
46:04of version of a fasting mimicking. Um
46:07and I know like you know Dr. Walter
46:08Longo has like a lot of a list of
46:10certain foods that he and they're
46:12surprisingly they're not just like foods
46:14that you would think you know this isn't
46:15just like okay you're you're going
46:17modified ketogenic. It's some of them
46:19are pretty specific on his list. I know
46:21he gets pretty nuanced there. He's
46:23phenomenal. He's got some really cool
46:24stuff out of Italy and I think USC,
46:26right? I think he's at I think I think
46:27he's USC. But I mean, just really cool
46:29stuff. I'd love to have him on at some
46:31point. But
46:32>> I think that people are But it's great
46:34because I think it's it's helping people
46:37that perhaps
46:38>> only viewed
46:40caloric restriction as like the only
46:42way. They they helps introduce them to
46:46this concept of fasting
46:48>> in a palatable way where they're like,
46:49"Oh,
46:50>> you're telling me just to reduce
46:51calories down to 500 with this and and
46:53then these specific foods." I've noticed
46:54a lot more people that were not even
46:56open to fasting become open to it.
46:59>> Yeah. And uh it was interesting because
47:01that video with Dom where he talks about
47:02sardine fasting, pretty specific
47:05esoteric thing, but the number of views
47:08on that video and the number of people
47:09they're like, "Oh, I
47:11>> I haven't been willing to do a 5day
47:12fast, but I could do that."
47:13>> Yeah,
47:14>> I could do that. And then next thing you
47:15know, they're like, "Well, actually,
47:17that felt really good. I'm going to go
47:18ahead and just do a three-day water
47:19fast." So, it's like really just cool
47:21that we're we're seeing this. So, I
47:23mean, I encourage people to investigate
47:24that more. And I mean Jason, I want to
47:26get into these three types of hunger.
47:29You alluded to them a little bit, but
47:31what are these three types specifically
47:33and let's double click on each of them.
47:35>> Yeah. So essentially there's the
47:38physical type of hunger which is you
47:40know your stomach is growling and that's
47:41what most of us think about when we
47:42think about hunger, right? You think
47:44there's only one type but that's
47:45actually called homeostatic hunger. So
47:47homeostasis is a sort of core biological
47:50principle where you sort of maintain
47:51this sort of even keel. So it's like
47:53your room thermostat, right? You set the
47:55room temperature. If it gets too hot, it
47:57turns on the air conditioning. It gets
47:59too cold, it turns on the heat, right?
48:00So homeostasis is the same way. When you
48:03start eating, you actually start
48:05signaling yourself through hormones that
48:07you need to soon stop. And those are
48:08satiety hormones. If you don't eat for a
48:10while, you develop you you produce
48:12hunger hormones that get you up. And it
48:14turns out that body fat actually follows
48:16exactly the same principles because you
48:18want your body fat to be at a certain
48:21level. So I call it the body fat
48:22thermostat just to reinforce that it
48:25follows the principles of homeostasis.
48:27So homeostatic hunger is is that sort of
48:30on andoff switch. But homeostasis is
48:31actually core. Any mission critical
48:34system in the body has homeostasis. So
48:36if you think about your body
48:37temperature, it's set at a certain
48:40level. If it's really cold, then you
48:43shiver. If it's really hot, you sweat,
48:45right? If you drink a lot of water, you
48:48pee it out. Right? don't drink a lot of
48:49water, you're not going to pee it out.
48:51Your your electrolyte level, your sodium
48:54levels, your potassium levels, if you
48:56you eat a lot of potassium containing
48:58foods, you don't die, right? Your body
49:00just gets rid of it, right? Same with
49:02everything. So, you can think about any
49:04system like you get into, you know,
49:06bright sunlight, you know, your pupils
49:08constrict. You go into a dark room, your
49:10pupils go open, right? So, all of these
49:13things, all of the body always follows
49:15homeostasis. And body fat's actually no
49:18different. And it it it has to because
49:19it's mission critical. If you didn't
49:21have homeostasis of your body fat, you
49:24would die because wild animals, if you
49:26think about it, are never morbidly
49:28obese. Why? Because you're not going to
49:30survive. If you're a predator, you'll
49:32never catch anything. If you're an over
49:34if you're a morbidly obese rabbit, like
49:37you're dead, right? You're going to get
49:39eaten in 2 seconds. So, how much body
49:41fat you carry is critical. If you have
49:43too little body fat, you'll also die
49:46because the minute winter comes, you're
49:47dead, right? So, you want to maintain
49:49it. And that's the reason why if you
49:51think about caloric uh balance, like if
49:54you think about the number of calories
49:56we have to balance, it's an insane
49:58number. Like 2,000 calories a day times
50:02365 days. And the average weight loss or
50:05weight gain over a year for a person is
50:08sort of like one pound, right? So you
50:10have to be accurate to a degree of like
50:1299.7%
50:14or something like that. Ma balancing
50:17your caloric intake and your output. Yet
50:20you don't know how many calories you eat
50:22and you don't know how many calories you
50:24burn. How does your body do that? It's
50:26clearly not because you're counting
50:28calories on a label, right? It makes no
50:31sense. Your body obviously senses it. If
50:33you eat more, then it has signals and
50:36your body is getting too fat. then it
50:38has signals to dampen it down and that's
50:41something like leptin for example. So
50:42that's been a wellstudied hormone
50:44system. So if the body has this
50:47thermostat mechanism then when you're
50:49overweight you need to know what is
50:51pushing your thermostat up and what is
50:53pushing it down right? So certain
50:54hormones are going to push it up like
50:56insulin like cortisol certain ones are
50:58going to push it down. So GLP-1 is a
51:01classic example, right? So you look at
51:03the weight loss drugs now, ompic and so
51:05on. They act on the GLP-1 system. People
51:08lose weight because it pushes it down.
51:10How does it do that? Well, it it does it
51:12by activating hunger and satiety, right?
51:15So when you activate insulin, when
51:17insulin goes way up, it's it's going to
51:19make you hungry. So you're going to eat.
51:21So yes, calories in is greater than
51:23calories out. But the question is why
51:25was calories in greater than calories
51:27out, right? It's because your your body
51:29is wanting to defend a higher weight.
51:31Whereas when you activate the GLP1
51:33system pushes it down, turns off that
51:36hunger. And you see the same thing with
51:38other hormones too, right? So the
51:40hormones are incredibly important. So
51:42there's insulin, there's cortisol,
51:43there's GLP1, there's GIP, there's
51:45glucagon. We know that because of all
51:47the studies that have been done on those
51:48hormonal systems, but also the
51:50sympathetic nervous system for example.
51:53So increased sympathetic tone decreases
51:57weight. So how do we know? Well, because
51:59you look at any old drug. So the old
52:01drug fenfen
52:03was a classic uh weight loss drug in the
52:05'9s. Very effective.
52:08>> Is that fentamine? Is that is fenfen?
52:09>> Uh yeah. Is it okay? Is uh fentamine
52:12fenflloramine fentam which was a
52:14combination. So it's fenfen. people lost
52:17about 17% of body weight with it which
52:20is basically on par with an ozumpy right
52:23so very very effective it caused heart
52:25problems so it had to get taken off but
52:27it did it by stimulating the sympathetic
52:30nervous system which crushed the
52:32appetite so people wouldn't eat right it
52:35doesn't physically restrict calories and
52:37that's a really important thing because
52:38that's how you know that all of hunger
52:41and satiety is driven by your hormones
52:44because it's you know it's not calories,
52:46it's it's it's those hormones. So even
52:48though you don't eat much like me with
52:50Ozmpic for example, even though you
52:51don't eat much, you feel full because
52:53you're hormonally signaling that you're
52:55full. So fenfen prior a generation
52:58before that people used amphetamine. So
53:00speed was a classic weight loss drug in
53:02the '60s. Of course other problems,
53:04right, addiction and so on, but crack
53:06and speed, when you read about people
53:09who use them, basically they'd say,
53:12"When I take it, my hunger disappeared."
53:14and nicotine. Nicotine is a sympathetic
53:17agonist. So when you increase a
53:18sympathetic tone, you don't feel hungry.
53:22So smokers wouldn't feel hungry. And
53:24smokers weighed less than non-smokers,
53:26which means you're pushing that
53:27thermostat down. And therefore, that's
53:29what's causing the problem. But it's
53:31wasn't calories, it was the sympathetic
53:33nervous system. So all of these hormonal
53:35system, testosterone, estrogen, you
53:37could go on. Not all of these are
53:39amendable to uh weight loss. But you
53:41know like if you look at testosterone
53:44so if you castrate somebody if you take
53:47out the uh testes for somebody with
53:49prostate cancer for example or
53:50testicular cancer what happens well it's
53:54very predictable they lose muscle and
53:56gain fat and it wasn't because of what
53:58they ate or anything. It was because you
54:01took away the testosterone. The
54:02testosterone is a signal that you should
54:05gain muscle and lose fat. You look at
54:07puberty, when boys and girls are
54:09pre-pubertal, they have roughly the same
54:12amount of body fat. Post puberty, girls
54:14have about 50% more fat and the boys
54:16have a lot more muscle. Why? It's not
54:19willpower. It's not calories. Have you
54:21like the boys are eating a lot, but
54:22they're turning it all into muscle,
54:24right? So the girls with, you know, as
54:27they go through puberty, they're
54:28developing breast, they're developing
54:30hips. So they're developing more of the
54:32subcutaneous fat, which is um actually a
54:35good thing because it actually helps
54:36protect them um you know, a little bit
54:38from heart disease because it's more
54:39subcutaneous versus visceral. But the
54:42point is that they are gaining fat. So
54:44what you know is that this homeostatic
54:46physical system is trying to maintain
54:49your weight through the mechanism of
54:51this physical hunger and satiety. Now,
54:53what's interesting, especially when you
54:55do the longer fast, is that very few of
54:57us it get that on a daily basis because
55:01we're relatively easy to get food and
55:03we're fairly regimented. So, when you do
55:06these longer fasts and you feel it, you
55:08know, when I feel it anyway, I'm like,
55:09"Oh, I actually don't feel this all that
55:11much." So, the question is, what else is
55:14causing this hunger that's driving the
55:16obesity epidemic? Right? And it's
55:18interesting because you know so you've
55:20got the physical hunger or homeostatic
55:22hunger.
55:22>> Okay, so that's hunger type one.
55:24>> That's type one. And the second type is
55:26hydonic hunger. So this is eating for
55:28pleasure. Because you have to you have
55:30to acknowledge that we don't simply eat
55:32for nutrients. We eat because it's a
55:35pleasurable activity. People like it. It
55:37makes you feel good. Makes you feel good
55:40about yourself. So if you're uh an
55:42emotional eater, say you want to uh
55:45you're a little bit depressed. Well, you
55:47might be eating to give yourself a
55:49little pickme up. If you're bored,
55:50you're looking for a little pleasure.
55:52So, you want that little dopamine hit.
55:54And so, you eat for that reason. And the
55:57problem, where you get into problems is
55:59with ultrarocessed foods. Because
56:01ultrarocessed foods sort of are able to
56:04take the natural food and then make it
56:07and give you this sort of superersized
56:09hit so that you're getting extra
56:11pleasure, extra dopamine, and so on,
56:13right? And again, none of it is by
56:15accident, right? You read about things
56:17like bliss points and salt and sugar and
56:19fat and, you know, making sure it's the
56:21exact, you know, right combination, but
56:24you know, there's artificial flavors,
56:26there's artificial colors, there's
56:28texturizers to make sure it feels good
56:30for the mouth feel. There's emulsifiers,
56:32there's uh flavor enhancers like MSG or
56:35maltodextrin, there's things like
56:37carrageum and guar gum and all this
56:40stuff. So none of it is by accident, but
56:42these ultrarocessed foods are able to
56:45excuse me.
56:47These ultrarocessed foods are able to
56:50make you get this sort of superersized
56:53hit. And at the same time, what they do
56:55is they minimize satiety so that you
56:57don't get full so you can just keep
56:59going, right? The bet you can't eat just
57:00eat one sort of thing, right? You just
57:02keep going and keep going because you're
57:04evading that whole satiety signaling and
57:08you're giving yourself that hydonic.
57:10here you're satisfying that hydonic
57:11hunger and it can actually tip into food
57:15addiction and I think these are this is
57:16one of the most interesting areas of
57:18research. So both ultrarocessed foods
57:21and food addiction in the last 5 years
57:22the research has just exploded on how
57:25bad it is. And I think it's great
57:27because now we're starting to get past
57:29this whole is it calories, is it carbs,
57:32is it protein, is it fat, right? Which
57:34is, you know, part of the discussion,
57:36but how you process those carbohydrates
57:38or calories is also important because it
57:41changes how your body responds to it.
57:44And that's that's um where things can
57:46tip over is in in the uh sort of hitonic
57:50hunger into food addiction. And
57:51addictions are things that people will
57:54continue to do even though they know
57:56it's bad for them, right? And it doesn't
57:57have to be not everybody has to be
58:00addictive for a p for a substance to be
58:02addictive. So alcohol, not everybody who
58:04drinks becomes addicted. Not everybody
58:06who smokes becomes addictive, but some
58:07people can. And the data is so
58:10interesting because it's clear that
58:12about 30 35 40% of people depending on
58:16the study uh with weight issues are
58:19actually addicted to food. Like they
58:21can't actually stop, right? And some
58:24people will say things like, well, you
58:26know, it can't be addictive because it's
58:28natural. It's like that's bologoney. You
58:31know, nicotine smoking is addictive. It
58:33came from tobacco leaves, right?
58:35Morphine is addictive. It came from
58:37poppies. Alcohol is addictive. It came
58:40from fermentation of grains or rice or
58:43whatever. Right? So, it's not the actual
58:45naturalness. It's the processing that
58:48makes it a problem because what you do
58:49is you take the sort of most addictive
58:52part of it and purify it. Right? And
58:55that's what ultrarocessed foods have the
58:57ability to do because there's no limit.
58:59Right? When you have a blueberry, a
59:00blueberry is a blueberry. Yeah. You
59:02change it with various ways, but it's
59:04still a blueberry, right? Whereas with a
59:07blueberry candy, you can put whatever
59:09you want in it. You could put 100%
59:11sugar. You could put all this other
59:13stuff in it. And that's the problem with
59:16with that. So the reason it's important
59:18is because again, there's this whole
59:20other toolkit in addiction medicine that
59:23you need to use, right? And one of them
59:25is abstinence, right? So it's a
59:28completely different situation. So if
59:30you're addicted to alcohol, would your
59:32friend ever say, "Hey, just have a
59:34drink. everything in moderation, right?
59:36It's like, no, he'd be the worst friend
59:39ever because that one drink is going to
59:42lead to more.
59:43>> Yeah.
59:43>> So, if people say, "I'm addicted to
59:46bread. I'm addicted to pizza. I'm
59:47addicted to candy." They're telling you
59:50>> they're addicted. What it means
59:53>> you need to abstain. You can't just say
59:56everything in moderation. And you know
59:58how many doctors and dietitians say
1:00:00that? And I'm always like, "God, would
1:00:02you tell a heroin addict just take a
1:00:04little hit?" Yeah. A small one.
1:00:06>> It's like, it'd be the worst advice
1:00:08ever. So, if they're telling you they're
1:00:10addicted, why would you say it's okay to
1:00:13eat bread if you're addicted to bread,
1:00:16right? Don't eat bread. Go eat something
1:00:18else. You're addicted to it,
1:00:20>> dude. There I mean, there even I mean,
1:00:21I'm even seeing cases of um you know,
1:00:23LDN, lowd dose alexone being used for
1:00:26obesity now, right? It's just like and
1:00:28this is
1:00:29>> like just in an you know LDN low dose
1:00:32form but this is something that
1:00:34>> acts upon receptors in the brain that
1:00:36essentially at higher doses we've seen
1:00:38in addiction medicine right but even at
1:00:40the LDN level it's like now they're
1:00:42saying like they're pairing it with GLPs
1:00:44right they're pairing it with GLPs
1:00:45because they're being like okay well
1:00:47let's also get to the what they're
1:00:49calling some of the root cause. So
1:00:50there's a thoughtful acknowledgement
1:00:51there and we're seeing addiction
1:00:53medicine being applied here even for
1:00:55people that are just moderately
1:00:56overweight. Not people that are just
1:00:58more morbidly obese but be but people
1:01:00that like you know I've got 20 pounds to
1:01:01lose. Well let's see like why are you 20
1:01:04pounds overweight. It's not just because
1:01:05you're it's not just because you're
1:01:07overeing in a blanket term you know.
1:01:11>> Yeah. Exactly. And this overeating is
1:01:13always assumed to be well cuz it's your
1:01:16choice, right? That's where all the
1:01:18blaming comes from, right? The shaming
1:01:20and the blaming is like you could have
1:01:22not done it but you chose not to. No,
1:01:25>> you wouldn't say that to someone with
1:01:26that's addicted to cigarettes. I mean,
1:01:28you would maybe, but it's not like
1:01:29you're not
1:01:30>> we start, but when you're when you know,
1:01:31we show them, you know, an alcoholic.
1:01:33When you started becoming alcoholic,
1:01:35sure, you had that choice at that point.
1:01:37Once you're addicted, we show them a lot
1:01:38more compassion because it's like we
1:01:40understand like whether it's drug
1:01:42addiction, alcohol, or whatever. You
1:01:44say, "Okay, well, you're addicted at
1:01:45this point." So, like it's useless to to
1:01:48go back. You can't go back in time.
1:01:50Like, let's let's move forward and how
1:01:52are we going to treat this addiction,
1:01:53right? But that sort of compassion never
1:01:56applies to somebody who's overweight,
1:01:58which is sad, right? And I think this
1:02:00whole nal trexone GLP-1 is interesting
1:02:02because it acknowledges the new sort of
1:02:06paradigm of thinking about this issue.
1:02:08Right? So it's not a calories problem.
1:02:11None of these things affects your
1:02:13calories. The GLP1 does not restrict
1:02:15your calories, right? It restricts your
1:02:18hunger. And there's a huge difference.
1:02:20That's why you have to understand what
1:02:23are the levers in the homeostatic hunger
1:02:25or maybe it's hodonic hunger, maybe it's
1:02:27ultrarocessed foods. And people also say
1:02:30stupid stuff like, "Oh, you can't not
1:02:32eat food." It's like, I'm not saying
1:02:34don't eat food. I'm saying don't eat
1:02:35ultrarocessed food that you're addicted
1:02:37to. Right? It's like, if you're addicted
1:02:38to alcohol, I don't say don't drink
1:02:40green tea, right? That's ridiculous,
1:02:42right? So, if you're telling me you're
1:02:44addicted to, you know, sweets, don't eat
1:02:47sweets. That's the thing. I don't say
1:02:49don't eat eggs, right? Why would I say
1:02:51that? So, you know, people make these
1:02:53arguments. It makes no sense, right?
1:02:56From a, you know, paradigm standpoint, I
1:02:59always think it's interesting because
1:03:00there's this whole calorie paradigm
1:03:01where calories are everything, calories
1:03:03are everything. It's so stupid because
1:03:05it's like if you think about the energy
1:03:07balance equation, body fat equals
1:03:10calories in minus calories out, right?
1:03:11So what happens is that people assume
1:03:13calories out, which is metabolic rate
1:03:15plus exercise, remains stable. So
1:03:18therefore, if you simply eat 500
1:03:19calories less, you're going to burn 500
1:03:22calories of fat. But it's completely
1:03:24untrue, right?
1:03:26If you if you eat 500 fewer calories,
1:03:29your body could release 500 calories
1:03:32from your fat stores or you could burn
1:03:35500 calories less and not release any
1:03:37fat. Right? So that means which one it
1:03:40does is very important. So if we take
1:03:43that equation and simply rewrite it and
1:03:46you say calories in equals body fat plus
1:03:49calories out, right? So the stored
1:03:51calories plus the body out. What it
1:03:53tells you is that for every calorie you
1:03:55eat, your body has a choice. It can
1:03:57store it as fat or it can burn it. But
1:04:01which one does it do? That doesn't the
1:04:03the number of calories doesn't have
1:04:06doesn't tell you which way it goes. It's
1:04:08only the hormones that tell you, hey, do
1:04:11do you store it or do you burn it? And
1:04:13we have a hormone which is well known to
1:04:17tell you which one it does. Insulin. If
1:04:20you have a ton of insulin, that's the
1:04:22hormonal signal to store it and not burn
1:04:25it, right? And it's like, okay, I just
1:04:27don't understand these people who go on
1:04:29and on about the calories of calories,
1:04:31all calories, calories, calories. It's
1:04:32like, okay, you're sort of missing the
1:04:35main piece of it, which is like what
1:04:38does your body do with those calories?
1:04:40Because food contains calories. Yes,
1:04:41that's the energy, but it contains
1:04:43information, right? contains
1:04:45instructions because your body responds
1:04:47with certain hormones and depending on
1:04:50the food, they're different hormones,
1:04:51right? So, you're going to get different
1:04:53instructions on what you're supposed to
1:04:55do with those calories, right? And it's
1:04:57affected not just by the food, but by
1:04:59digestion, by processing, by absorption,
1:05:02you know, even things like
1:05:03>> by light, by mean literally.
1:05:05>> Exactly. If you don't sleep enough,
1:05:07right? So, everybody knows, right? It's
1:05:09been well established you you you go
1:05:11into a sleep deprivation state, right?
1:05:13And you can do this experimentally.
1:05:15Deprive somebody of sleep for like, you
1:05:17know, a week. You know, you give them
1:05:18four hours a day or something like that.
1:05:20And they gain weight. They're eating
1:05:21more. They're gaining weight. It's like,
1:05:23okay, yes, calories in is greater than
1:05:24calories out. But why? It's clear
1:05:28because we did it experimentally. It's
1:05:30the lack of sleep, right? So, it wasn't
1:05:32the calories was not the that was the
1:05:34result. It wasn't the cause of the
1:05:37problem, right? And that's where the
1:05:39calories thing bothers me all the time
1:05:41because it's like these calories in
1:05:43calories out people are always like
1:05:44every single problem is solved by eat
1:05:48fewer calories. It's like to the man
1:05:50with a hammer every problem is a nail.
1:05:53So it's like you didn't get enough sleep
1:05:54so the solution is eat fewer calories.
1:05:57Like I don't think so.
1:05:58>> It's a good point. It's a really good
1:06:00point.
1:06:00>> If it's ultrarocessed foods, the
1:06:02solution is eat fewer calories. Well,
1:06:04isn't it to eat less ultrarocessed
1:06:06foods?
1:06:07>> Yeah. If your problem is stress, the
1:06:09solution is eat fewer calories. Like,
1:06:12isn't it deal with your stress?
1:06:13>> Yeah. I mean, you would need a manual
1:06:15this thick for every certain use case in
1:06:17which, you know, oh, you you know, my my
1:06:19wife yelled at me today. I guess I got
1:06:20to pull with that manual. How many less
1:06:22calories should I eat? I know. I mean,
1:06:24it's it's an interesting. You said a
1:06:26very important word a number of times
1:06:29and it's for whatever reason a word that
1:06:32keeps popping up for me lately and that
1:06:33was signal. Right. Our body, our brain
1:06:36is interpreting signals. Yeah.
1:06:37>> Constantly bombarded with signals.
1:06:39>> Yeah.
1:06:40>> Some we detect, some we possibly don't
1:06:42detect, right? Some that we
1:06:43environmentally uh, you know,
1:06:45influential signals that maybe who
1:06:46knows, right? Who knows what, you know,
1:06:49BPA are doing. Who knows what stuff that
1:06:51breathe in is also signaling too, right?
1:06:52We just there's a lot we don't know, but
1:06:55we're just coming this
1:06:57>> bombardment of signals
1:06:59>> and that is what's determining
1:07:01>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:02>> The output or in a lot of cases like
1:07:04where our homeostasis is because no
1:07:07one's denying that calories are indeed a
1:07:09signal.
1:07:10>> Yeah.
1:07:11>> But they're not the signal,
1:07:13>> like that is maybe they're maybe they're
1:07:15even an important signal. I would even
1:07:17go so far as saying they're an important
1:07:18signal, but so is light. Like so is how
1:07:22many photons are hitting my retina. You
1:07:23know, all these things that change the
1:07:27magnitude of importance of that calorie.
1:07:29>> Yeah. Some might even make it nil. Yeah.
1:07:32Right. Some might make it way more.
1:07:34>> Yeah.
1:07:35>> And I think that sometimes
1:07:37>> the mental gymnastics that I'm seeing
1:07:40some of the diehard calories in,
1:07:42calories out people going through.
1:07:44>> Yeah. I mean, they're it's like you have
1:07:46some of the people that have been saying
1:07:47calories in, calories out, and now
1:07:48they're making thoughtful, you know,
1:07:50there's one particular I interviewed a
1:07:51guest, you know, very well-known
1:07:54researcher, uh, probably one of the
1:07:56probably one of the most well-known fat
1:07:58loss researchers, and he's currently
1:08:00doing a lot of work on like menopause.
1:08:02And he's a guy that's been calories in,
1:08:04calories out for so long. And like he
1:08:05flat out is just saying like, I don't
1:08:07have the answer when it comes to
1:08:08menopause because I've spent my whole
1:08:10career talking about calories in,
1:08:11calories out.
1:08:12>> [laughter]
1:08:12>> He's like, "And then when I get to
1:08:13menopause, I'm just like, well, maybe
1:08:16maybe there is something else going on,
1:08:18right?"
1:08:18>> It has to be, but it has to be, right?
1:08:21Because the whole dialogue around
1:08:24permenopause. So, first of all,
1:08:25pmenopausal weight gain is real. You can
1:08:28measure it, right? It happens. So that
1:08:31like if it's due to calories in calories
1:08:34out, which is ultimately caused by
1:08:36personal choice, which is the sort of
1:08:38paradigm that we've all been taught, why
1:08:41is it that every single perry pen
1:08:43menopausal woman is choosing to eat
1:08:45more? That makes no sense at all. All at
1:08:48the same time, come on. Right around
1:08:49menopause, that's the stupidest argument
1:08:52ever. Clearly, there must be a hormonal
1:08:56reason. And it's not really that hard to
1:08:58see. So if you look at estrogen,
1:09:00estrogen and progesterone are actually
1:09:02quite interesting because estrogen is an
1:09:04appetite suppressant. So if you follow
1:09:07how much women eat during their over the
1:09:10period the menopause like the menstrual
1:09:13cycle, it actually follows a very
1:09:15stereotypical pattern. So from the first
1:09:18day of the cycle to ovulation, so about
1:09:22the midpoint of the cycle, estrogen is
1:09:24building up. And because estrogen is an
1:09:26appetite suppressant, they actually
1:09:28start to eat less. And you can measure
1:09:29it when you measure. There's been
1:09:31multiple studies. And you can see when
1:09:33you measure large numbers of people that
1:09:35women will eat less. Then it flips. As
1:09:38you as you ovulate, the progesterone
1:09:41starts to go way up afterwards. And
1:09:43progesterone is an appetite stimulant.
1:09:46So as you you know, over the first part
1:09:48of the cycle, women are eating less and
1:09:50less and then they eat more and more. So
1:09:51over the the the the 28 day cycle, it
1:09:54sort of flattens out, right? But there's
1:09:56a it's it's not the same all the way
1:09:58through. So as you go into the perry
1:10:00menopause period, your estrogen levels
1:10:03are going down. So you're getting
1:10:06hungry. So you're eating more. It's not
1:10:07a choice because you don't get you can
1:10:10choose what you eat, but you can't
1:10:11choose to be less hungry. And that's the
1:10:14real important thing to understand. Same
1:10:15with the calories out. You can choose to
1:10:18exercise, but you can't choose your
1:10:20metabolic rate, right? None of these are
1:10:22in your control. It's only controlled by
1:10:24your hormones. And the thing about
1:10:26progesterone that I think fascinating is
1:10:28that you can use a synthetic
1:10:30progesterone. And we've been using it
1:10:33for like 35 years. It's called Megas.
1:10:36It's a drug that's used in cancer
1:10:38medicine. It's a synthetic progesterone
1:10:40to stimulate appetite. So if like we
1:10:43understand that why wouldn't you simply
1:10:45say hey this synthetic progesterone
1:10:47stimulates appetite. Hey in the latter
1:10:49part of the cycle we see that women are
1:10:53eating more. Why? Well progesterone is
1:10:55growing up. Hey that wasn't too
1:10:56difficult to figure out was it? But
1:10:58again it comes back to this again and
1:11:00again. It's the hormones. It's the
1:11:02estrogen. It's the progesterone. It's
1:11:04the testosterone. Right. Testosterone
1:11:06very clearly linked to to amount of body
1:11:09fat. Estrogen very clearly linked.
1:11:11Progesterone clearly linked like things
1:11:13like neurotransmitters, right? So
1:11:15antiscychotics,
1:11:17>> anti-depressants
1:11:19well known for like 35 years to cause
1:11:23weight gain, right? A lot of these
1:11:25antiscychotics cause weight gain because
1:11:27they mess around with those
1:11:29neurotransmitters that are affecting
1:11:31you. None of it is due to calories. None
1:11:34of it. None of the ozmpics, none of the,
1:11:36you know, fenfens, none of the
1:11:38empetamines, none of this stuff is
1:11:40related to calories. When you physically
1:11:43restrict calories, you can do that. You
1:11:45can cut somebody's stomach out, right?
1:11:47Beriatric surgery was, you know, had a
1:11:49tday in the 2010s, right? We're going to
1:11:52cure obesity. Everybody thought it was
1:11:54the next big thing. The number of ruin
1:11:56wide b um surgeries peaked in 2010. The
1:12:00only reason we're not doing more is
1:12:02because it didn't work. In the long
1:12:03term, people regain that weight. Why?
1:12:06Because you're physically restricting
1:12:07calories, but you never solve the hunger
1:12:10problem, right? Because the hunger is
1:12:12the underlying problem, whether it's the
1:12:14homeostatic, the hydonic, or the
1:12:16conditioned hunger. And I think of it
1:12:18this way. So there's this there's this
1:12:19concept in logic called the three W's.
1:12:22So if you want to understand a problem
1:12:25to sort of a very deep level, you have
1:12:27to ask the question why three times. So
1:12:29if you ask the question, for example,
1:12:31why did the Titanic sink? Right? The
1:12:33wrong answer is because it hit an
1:12:35iceberg. And then you say, "Why? That
1:12:37that makes no sense." Because that's
1:12:38very superficial first order thinking.
1:12:41If you simply say, "Okay, well then how
1:12:43do you avoid future marine disasters?"
1:12:45Your advice would be don't hit icebergs.
1:12:48It's like that's not very good advice.
1:12:50Like I know that already, right? So then
1:12:52you ask the question, your second why is
1:12:54why did the Titanic hit the iceberg? And
1:12:56the answer is well because the captain
1:12:58couldn't turn it in time. So why
1:13:01couldn't the captain turn it in time?
1:13:03Because it was going too fast. So the
1:13:06answer is the Titanic sank because it
1:13:09was going too fast, not because it hit
1:13:11an iceberg. So now you can say to future
1:13:14captains, make sure that when you can't
1:13:16see or you have inclement weather, slow
1:13:19down.
1:13:19>> You say the third part of that is under
1:13:21what condition. Right. Exactly. Because
1:13:23then you also can't tell like certain
1:13:24ships like you don't go too fast because
1:13:26what if the conditions are perfect for
1:13:28it, right? So then you have these other
1:13:29Yeah. Exactly. It's the same thing if if
1:13:31if some if you're if you get into an
1:13:34accident, your car flies off the highway
1:13:36or something, what is wrong? You went
1:13:37too fast. It wasn't because the
1:13:40frictional gravity and you know,
1:13:43friction and gravity was less than the
1:13:45centrifugal force of the turn in the
1:13:48road, right? Nobody ever says that. So,
1:13:50if you apply that same sort of deep
1:13:52level thinking to to weight gain, you
1:13:55say, "Why is somebody gaining weight?"
1:13:56It's because calories in is greater than
1:13:58calories out. Yes, I agree with you.
1:14:00That's not my question. That's the don't
1:14:02hit icebergs advice, right? It's the
1:14:04superficial advice that actually is not
1:14:06helpful. You want to know why is
1:14:08calories in greater than calories out,
1:14:10right? I'm not questioning that it's
1:14:12greater. I'm questioning why it's
1:14:14greater. And the answer is because
1:14:15you're hungry, right? That's why you eat
1:14:18because you're hungry. You stop eating
1:14:20when you're full. That's the answer. So,
1:14:23you get to the third why, which is the
1:14:24most fascinating to me because I don't
1:14:26think we talk about it enough. Why are
1:14:28you hungry? Is it the physical hunger
1:14:30which is the homeostatic hunger? Is it
1:14:32the emotional hunger which is the
1:14:34hydonic hunger? Or is it this third
1:14:36conditioned hunger which is a sort of
1:14:37social hunger? because I think that is
1:14:39actually the most interesting because I
1:14:42think it applies so much to our sort of
1:14:44modern-day living because this sort of
1:14:48influence of the environment on our
1:14:50personal decisions is actually extremely
1:14:53powerful and one that we don't you know
1:14:56we we recognize it's important in
1:14:58certain certain you know conditions like
1:15:01social influence right influencers and
1:15:03stuff they're very important because you
1:15:04know they affect how we see things
1:15:08So the people around you have a huge
1:15:10impact on what you eat, what you do, how
1:15:14you eat, you know, it just makes such a
1:15:17huge difference. So why wouldn't it be
1:15:20important in body weight, right? And
1:15:22it's clear that it is because there's
1:15:24lots of studies, for example, they did a
1:15:27study where they they tracked people
1:15:29through social networks. If your best
1:15:31friend becomes obese, your own risk of
1:15:34obesity goes up by like 170% or
1:15:37something like that. I mean, huge. You
1:15:40can take military families and move them
1:15:42into a place where there's high obesity
1:15:44prevalence and their risk of obesity
1:15:46goes way up, right? Because the people
1:15:49around you influence what you do, right?
1:15:52If you're always going for a hike, if
1:15:55you're always going, you know, to the
1:15:57beach, right? you're going to go you, if
1:15:59your friends are doing that, you're
1:16:00going to do that. If your friends are
1:16:01just, you know, going out and drinking
1:16:04beer and, you know, eating pizza, then
1:16:06that's what you're going to do, too.
1:16:08That's just the way life is. That's
1:16:09being human, right? I see it because
1:16:12when I go out with my high school
1:16:14friends, the diet's not good, right?
1:16:17There's a lot of like junk food and
1:16:19fried foods and stuff, but when I go out
1:16:21with my family, it's generally pretty
1:16:23good because we're more more adapt to
1:16:25that. So it's not my issue only, it's
1:16:30about the people that you're with,
1:16:32right? So it's like, okay, that's
1:16:33important. So why don't we acknowledge
1:16:35that? How are we going to change that?
1:16:37Right? And you you see it on a country
1:16:39level as well, right? Even within a like
1:16:42you take a um people like a Japanese
1:16:44person or an Italian person, their rates
1:16:46of obesity are extremely low. But like
1:16:49Italians, they love food, right? But
1:16:51they don't eat the ultraroc
1:16:53ultrarocessed food. They eat natural
1:16:54foods and they eat in a specific way,
1:16:56right? And they don't have a lot of
1:16:58obesity. But now take that Italian or
1:17:01Japanese person, plop them in New York
1:17:03City or San Francisco, what happens? The
1:17:06rate of obesity goes way way up. Like
1:17:09there's a five-fold increase in obesity.
1:17:11Like the minute you take them from Tokyo
1:17:13and plop them in San Francisco and then
1:17:15by the second generation their risk of
1:17:17obesity has, you know, matched the
1:17:18Americans. So clearly it's an
1:17:20environmental issue. So what is it about
1:17:23the sort of food environment that's what
1:17:26we need to figure out right and
1:17:27ultrarocessed foods plays a big role
1:17:30this sort of conditioning of food right
1:17:32where food is available all the time but
1:17:34not just that but it's encouraged almost
1:17:36right the snacking is encouraged there's
1:17:38constant reminders all the time so this
1:17:41is called conditioned hunger because
1:17:43this is an area of behavioral psychology
1:17:45so conditioning is where you pair two
1:17:47things and you can actually link them
1:17:49together so the classic experiment was
1:17:51path lots dogs. So what they did was
1:17:53they took dogs, they gave them food, and
1:17:56the the the dogs would get hungry,
1:17:58they'd salivate. Now, you ring a bell
1:18:00and then give them food. And pretty soon
1:18:02the dog learns that when it hears the
1:18:03bell, it's going to get fed. So then
1:18:05when you ring a bell, but don't give it
1:18:06food, it gets hungry because it's
1:18:08expecting food, right? And the problem
1:18:11is we're all now like Pavlo's dogs. Like
1:18:14we've linked food to everything. So the
1:18:16minute you get up, oh, never skip your
1:18:18breakfast, right? You got to have you go
1:18:20get coffee, you got to have something
1:18:22with your coffee, a donut or something,
1:18:23right? Lunchtime, you got to eat. You
1:18:26get in the, you know, and then you have
1:18:27to have a snack after school. You have
1:18:29to have a snack before bed. You eat when
1:18:31you're in the car. You eat when you're
1:18:32in the movie theater. You eat when
1:18:34you're watching a sporting event. You
1:18:36eat when you're watching TV. You eat
1:18:38when you're walking. Everywhere,
1:18:40everywhere you go, it's food, food,
1:18:42food, food, food. So, what you've got is
1:18:44you've got this conditioned uh stimulus
1:18:47and you're responding all the time. So,
1:18:49you're creating a lot of conditioned
1:18:51hunger which is going to make you eat
1:18:53because it was the hunger that drove the
1:18:55eating, right? You can't just say eat
1:18:56fewer calories, that's like saying to an
1:18:58alcoholic or you're saying to a drug
1:19:00addict, just take less cocaine. That'll
1:19:02solve your problem. No, you haven't
1:19:04solved the hunger piece of it. So, where
1:19:07in other countries they've done a much
1:19:08better job, right? uh in the United
1:19:11States, of course, it's everywhere.
1:19:13Like, you don't even have to think about
1:19:15it. Like, you know, there's foods food
1:19:17cues everywhere. And that's what people
1:19:19call this food noise, right? Because you
1:19:22get outside, people, it's not people,
1:19:24but these cues are screaming at you to
1:19:27eat, right? You go to a meeting at work
1:19:30and you're used to having seeing a plate
1:19:32of bagels or a plate of cookies, right?
1:19:34You walk down the the hallway, oh, there
1:19:36should be a bowl of candy on so- and
1:19:38so's desk. Oh, we're having so and so's
1:19:40birthday. We're going to have cake,
1:19:43right? So, cues all the time screaming
1:19:45at you in your face, you must eat. Well,
1:19:48guess what? After a while, you're going
1:19:49to eat. But it wasn't the individual
1:19:52problem. It was a sort of environmental
1:19:55problem, right? Because you could take
1:19:56that person and then plop them in, you
1:19:59know, in Japan or something and they'll
1:20:02lose that weight. Like I I read these
1:20:03stories actually all the time. They're
1:20:05actually quite interesting. It's like um
1:20:07you know somebody will write for example
1:20:09oh you know I came from Italy or Japan
1:20:12or something I I went to the US to study
1:20:14I gained like 30 pounds I went home my
1:20:16mom like cried or something right then
1:20:19then I lost like all the weight in like
1:20:2130 uh you know in in the two months I
1:20:23was home then I went back and regained
1:20:24it. I'm like yeah how much more clear do
1:20:27you want me to be? It's the environment.
1:20:29And that's where things like the new
1:20:32dietary guidelines and these discussions
1:20:34we're having about ultrarocessing, about
1:20:37environmental cues are so important
1:20:39because we need to move past this whole
1:20:42calories, calories, calories, and then
1:20:44the unwritten accusation, it's your
1:20:47fault.
1:20:48>> That's the problem that bothers me, the
1:20:50it's your fault problem, because it's
1:20:51not.
1:20:52>> No, I mean, shame is shame is one of the
1:20:54worst possible things that you can
1:20:55carry. There's so many of these calorie
1:20:57bullies, right? Calories. It's calories.
1:20:59>> It's becoming bullying. It's becoming
1:21:00bullying. And the thing is is and that
1:21:02is that is where I have started to
1:21:04become frustrated in the last especially
1:21:06in the last year. It's it feels like
1:21:08bullying. And I don't know what has
1:21:09changed in me to to make me feel that
1:21:12way.
1:21:12>> Something I mean I've always had a
1:21:14little bit of a riff with it, but
1:21:16>> it feels like bullying. And it's so much
1:21:18to the point where I'm realizing like
1:21:20are we not seeing that we are shaming
1:21:23people inadvertently?
1:21:24>> Yeah. Yeah,
1:21:25>> cuz we're not outright saying it, but
1:21:26we're inadvertently shaming people by
1:21:29somewhat gross negligence of some things
1:21:31that are, you know, and it's like when
1:21:33you look at the literature,
1:21:36yes,
1:21:38Sally had a change in her life for
1:21:40whatever reason that now makes her eat
1:21:42more calories. And yes, she gained
1:21:45weight. So, I get it. It's the same
1:21:46thing with the Titanic. I'm not saying
1:21:48that those calories didn't cause the
1:21:50weight gain,
1:21:51>> but I'm also saying that it's not always
1:21:54equal.
1:21:55>> Those extra calories might cause 7 lbs
1:21:59of fat gain in Sally and 4 lb of fat
1:22:02gain in Bill with 3 L pounds of muscle,
1:22:05right?
1:22:06>> So, and I know you're not saying that
1:22:08calories don't matter, but I think the
1:22:10overemphasis on it
1:22:12>> Yeah.
1:22:13>> at the very least leaves a lot to be
1:22:15desired. at the very worst is actually
1:22:18giving people a disordered eating or
1:22:20disordered way of looking at eating.
1:22:22>> I think so.
1:22:23>> And because when people are I mean I
1:22:25take many people that I know and let's
1:22:27just forget research for a second. I'll
1:22:28just talk about you know relationships
1:22:31and people that they get so frustrated
1:22:34because they will starve themselves.
1:22:37They will do these things like with you
1:22:39know go down to 1,200 calories. They'll
1:22:41drop weight and then their body adjusts
1:22:43and all they hear is move more, eat
1:22:47less, move more, eat less.
1:22:48>> So, it's very discouraging, but it also
1:22:52develops an overfixation on
1:22:56one one thing, one signal, an
1:22:58overfixation where we are obsessing,
1:23:01obsessing over calories to the point
1:23:03where we're actually not surrendering
1:23:06and realizing that there's a lot going
1:23:08on. And let's take a wide angle
1:23:11perspective at all this and realize that
1:23:14if we get out of this myopic way of
1:23:16looking at just calories, we can embrace
1:23:17that we have an environmental problem.
1:23:19>> Yeah.
1:23:20>> Right. We have a Q problem. We have a
1:23:23social problem. But no one wants to
1:23:25actually just sit like step back and
1:23:27admit we have an effing problem.
1:23:29>> Yeah.
1:23:29>> Right. Because that takes taking a
1:23:32really good hard look at yourself, your
1:23:34country, your regulations,
1:23:37>> your environment. And that's difficult.
1:23:40>> Yeah. And this is what I've always felt
1:23:41is that the people sort of in charge,
1:23:43these sort of nutritional sort of
1:23:45authorities have always been so on the
1:23:48calories bandwagon that when it doesn't
1:23:50work. What they do is they turn around
1:23:53and they say it's your fault, right?
1:23:55Which is basically blaming the victim,
1:23:57right? So you take this example of
1:23:59somebody who eats 1,200 calories a day,
1:24:01right? So 1,200 calories, then their
1:24:03weight plateaus because it always does,
1:24:04right? What it means is that their
1:24:06metabolic rate has gone down to 1,200
1:24:08calories a day. And I've seen people
1:24:09down to 800, right? So it's like they
1:24:12measured it, it was like 800. Like
1:24:14that's an insanely small amount of food
1:24:16to be burning every day, right? You're
1:24:17so you're eating basically nothing, but
1:24:19you're not losing weight because you're
1:24:21eating 800 calories and burning 800
1:24:23calories, right? And so obviously the
1:24:25question is why is your metabolic rate
1:24:27so damn low, right? You don't get to
1:24:30control your metabolic rate. So it's the
1:24:31hormones. Obviously, you screwed up your
1:24:33hormones. it was not the calories that's
1:24:35problem. It's their hormones which are
1:24:37all messed up, right? And that's the
1:24:39thing is that then but they can't admit
1:24:41that, right? So then they turn around
1:24:43and say you must be cheating, right?
1:24:46Yeah.
1:24:46>> So there it is again blaming the victim
1:24:49and it's like this is just the most
1:24:51unfair thing that we do to people and
1:24:53it's like if you think about like you
1:24:55know say you had a school and one child
1:24:57fails fine that child didn't study maybe
1:25:00but what if 70 children out of a 100
1:25:03fail would you say it's their fault or
1:25:05would you say no let's look at the
1:25:07school let's look at the teachers let's
1:25:08start to look at the learning
1:25:09environment obviously now you say okay
1:25:12in the United States 70% of people are
1:25:14overweight obese whereas in Japan it
1:25:17might be like 30%. Right? Well, the
1:25:20problem is not the individual. The
1:25:24problem is the system. But the people in
1:25:26charge of the system don't want to say
1:25:28the system is the problem. They don't
1:25:29want to say we're the problem. So, they
1:25:31like to go and point the finger at the
1:25:33individual saying you're cheating. You
1:25:36don't have enough willpower. You know,
1:25:38you're lying. You you have you're you
1:25:41know, you're you're like eating what you
1:25:43shouldn't be eating. That kind of thing.
1:25:45It's calories. It's calories. It's
1:25:46calories. Right. They keep beating the
1:25:48same drum and it's not helping. Right.
1:25:50Has it gotten better? Has
1:25:52>> I was going to say at a certain point we
1:25:53got to start looking at results.
1:25:54>> Exactly.
1:25:54>> All right. We got we got to we got
1:25:55>> We have years of results and it's been
1:25:57horrible. The data is actually
1:26:00shockingly bad. So in in the book uh the
1:26:03hunger code I I there's a interesting p
1:26:05I went over this interesting paper where
1:26:07it says what's the chance of m getting
1:26:10to a normal weight if you're say over
1:26:13obese say BMI over 30 and it's actually
1:26:17like the failure rate you know and this
1:26:19is mostly calories in calories out the
1:26:21failure rate is about 99.7%.
1:26:25So that's crazy, right? It's like that's
1:26:29your failure rate. So understand that
1:26:31when you fail, you are expected to fail.
1:26:34This calories and calories and doctors
1:26:36know this, right? There's a reason
1:26:38doctors up until recently, like with the
1:26:40weight loss drugs never talk about
1:26:42weight loss. It's because they know the
1:26:45cal cutting calories is so so bad. It
1:26:49just doesn't work. The data bears it
1:26:51out. Like who hasn't done calories in
1:26:53calories out, right? Every single person
1:26:55who's overweight has done calories in
1:26:57calories out. It's obviously failed
1:26:59them. Virtually every single one, right?
1:27:01If you ran around and saw anybody who's
1:27:04overweight and you're to guess like they
1:27:06do calories in calories out, the answer
1:27:07is almost always yes, right? They've
1:27:10definitely done it. It's not like they
1:27:12have never heard of it. It's like these
1:27:13people come out and pretend like
1:27:15nobody's heard of it. Like come on. Like
1:27:17who hasn't heard of this stupid calories
1:27:19and calories? And it's not that calories
1:27:21aren't important, just like alcohol is
1:27:24not is important for alcoholism,
1:27:27but you got to get to the why are they
1:27:29drinking the alcohol? Is it addiction?
1:27:32Is it depression? Is it post-traumatic
1:27:34stress disorder? Because when you get to
1:27:36the why of the whole thing, that's when
1:27:39you can start making a difference. You
1:27:41can't just simply say drink less alcohol
1:27:43and then when they drink don't, you
1:27:45know, don't drink less, you say it's
1:27:47your fault, right? Like you look at
1:27:49Alcoholics Anonymous and they have 12
1:27:50steps, none of which is like count your
1:27:53alcohol, right?
1:27:54>> It's like it's all about forgiveness and
1:27:58family and sponsor like really important
1:28:02things, right? But we don't give that to
1:28:06the calorie people. We don't say, "Well,
1:28:10let's look at, you know, your emotions.
1:28:12Let's look at the addiction. Let's get
1:28:14you a friend who's going to help you,
1:28:16right? A sponsor or something, right?
1:28:17Let's let let's make sure that you're,
1:28:19you know, forgiving yourself and being
1:28:22kind to yourself and all this stuff.
1:28:24That's actually really good.
1:28:27None of that. You don't get that when
1:28:29you're trying to lose weight. You do
1:28:31when you're going through like
1:28:33alcoholism, but you don't get that when
1:28:35you're trying if you're dealing with a
1:28:37food addiction, for example. Right? Food
1:28:39addiction is so important because it's
1:28:41like it's actually like 30 40% of people
1:28:43trying to lose weight actually are
1:28:44addicted to it. And I think it's
1:28:46actually it's actually quite striking
1:28:48because it's like if you ever watch
1:28:51these TV shows, you know, where you have
1:28:53these thousand pound people or something
1:28:54like that, right? It's quite clear
1:28:56they're addicted, right? They show them
1:28:58eating and it's like you're not eating
1:29:00big heads of broccoli and stuff, right?
1:29:03It's all ultrarocessed foods. So, it's
1:29:05clearly the ultrarocessed foods and
1:29:07something in that processing has
1:29:09triggered off this sort of food
1:29:10addiction and you can't stop eating this
1:29:13even though you know it's going to kill
1:29:15you, right? It's not like these people
1:29:17are stupid. They know it's going to kill
1:29:18them. Of course, they know, but it's the
1:29:21addiction. So, why don't you use this
1:29:24whole playbook of addiction medicine
1:29:26that we've developed, right? forgiveness
1:29:28and emotions and friendships and purpose
1:29:31and all this sort of stuff and help
1:29:34people. Like seriously, like we have
1:29:37three different types of hunger and
1:29:39everything is calories, calories,
1:29:40calories. Each of these has a different
1:29:42toolkit. If you don't sleep, you need a
1:29:45different tool than if you have, you
1:29:48know, environmental cues, the food
1:29:50noise, or if you have um, you know,
1:29:52hydonic pro, hydonic hunger problems
1:29:54with like, you know, uh, there's too
1:29:56much advertising, like there are ways to
1:29:58do it. Like, you know, for example, um,
1:30:01if you know, for for me, for example,
1:30:03like I used to go to I get a coffee like
1:30:06most of the days, right? And it's like
1:30:07there's always like donuts and stuff and
1:30:09before I'd like get some sometimes,
1:30:12right? Now it's like, well, since I know
1:30:14that that's going to be a temptation,
1:30:16what do I do now? I order all my coffee
1:30:18on the app. Then I'm not tempted. I
1:30:21don't see the donut or whatever. I don't
1:30:24have to deal with it. But what I've done
1:30:25is I've redesigned my environment to
1:30:28make it easy, right? I get my coffee, I
1:30:31go pick it up, I see the doughnut there,
1:30:33but I'm not going to line up. I have my
1:30:35coffee. I'm done. I'm out. So you're
1:30:37only you're only like nudging people
1:30:39that little bit just to do it right.
1:30:42That's all it takes. But you have to
1:30:44treat people with understanding,
1:30:47right? Understand the disease. Don't
1:30:49just say calories, calories, calories
1:30:50because that's that so superficial
1:30:53simplistic thing. And that's what, you
1:30:56know, the obesity code was about was
1:30:57really getting past that idea. That's
1:30:59what the hunger code is like. Getting
1:31:01let's get past this idea that it's just
1:31:03about calories. It's like yes the
1:31:05hormone is important but this is sort of
1:31:07a it takes it further because it takes
1:31:09it into the emotional realm as well as
1:31:11the the social environmental realm right
1:31:13so because those are really important
1:31:15aspects of eating behavior that are
1:31:17driving the problem. What about some of
1:31:20the um like even if we go back to the
1:31:22first type of hunger where it's a little
1:31:24bit more you know homeostatic hunger uh
1:31:27obviously the second two types of hunger
1:31:30directly influence that right because
1:31:33that's going to be like almost
1:31:34essentally downstream of that but you
1:31:36mention mentioned abstinence which
1:31:38sounds like almost like fasting right
1:31:40like in some ways like just just like
1:31:41cold turkey just just you know some of
1:31:43the best ways to downregulate some of
1:31:45the receptor activity and then increase
1:31:47you know sensitivity is to
1:31:49that's just, you know, and the nice
1:31:51thing about fasting is that it just kind
1:31:53of rips the band-aid off and you can do
1:31:54it in a short amount of time, right?
1:31:55It's like where there's
1:31:57>> traditional caloric restriction, you
1:31:58might be like slowly regaining
1:32:00sensitivity of some of these, you know,
1:32:02leptin uh leptin sensitivity and
1:32:03whatnot. and and it definitely will
1:32:05happen and restricting calories will get
1:32:06you there ultimately in in some ways,
1:32:08but by ripping off the band-aid and kind
1:32:10of like a stronger signal or a stronger
1:32:14uh removal of the stimuli will
1:32:17ultimately allow for sensitivity. So, I
1:32:19think that's what you meant by
1:32:19abstinence, but what are some other
1:32:20things that people can do for that
1:32:22homeostatic side? Because I find people
1:32:23like to have
1:32:25>> be like, "Yes, I am dealing with this."
1:32:27You know, what is something that I could
1:32:29throw into the mix that might help me
1:32:30with X?
1:32:32>> Yeah, that's a great question. And
1:32:33that's actually the the first part of
1:32:35the book which is talking about
1:32:36homeostatic hunger. There's I actually
1:32:38try to keep it practical. There's like
1:32:3950 weight loss tips and sort of three
1:32:41golden rules of weight loss. But there's
1:32:44lots of ways to sort of modulate the
1:32:48carbohydrate content say um to get lower
1:32:52insulin response because what you're
1:32:53trying to do is lower insulin because
1:32:55insulin is the hormone that tells your
1:32:56body to store more fat. So there's
1:32:58things like for example if you eat
1:33:01natural carbohydrates versus processed
1:33:03carbohydrates that's a big difference
1:33:04right so cutting the number of
1:33:06carbohydrates works yes but changing it
1:33:08from processed unprocessed and that's
1:33:10like the sort of instant oat versus
1:33:11steel cut oats or applesauce versus
1:33:14apples right so that that's one way of
1:33:17doing it if you eat natural
1:33:18carbohydrates like beans and you know
1:33:21peas and stuff it's a lot less um
1:33:24insulinogenic and and you can see this
1:33:26on things like the glycemic index,
1:33:28right? So, those are very well-defined
1:33:30things. If you look at the the highest
1:33:32glycemic index, it's all ultrarocessed
1:33:35foods. It's all white bread and Cheerios
1:33:37and corn puffs and rice puffs and stuff.
1:33:40So, some way that you've changed it.
1:33:42When you get to natural sort of squash
1:33:44and all that sort of stuff, they're
1:33:45still carbohydrates, but their glycemic
1:33:47index is a lot lower, usually about a
1:33:49third of what uh the ultrarocessed
1:33:51carbohydrates are. So changing it to
1:33:54less processed carbohydrates, eating
1:33:56more fiber is another great way.
1:33:58Changing the food order is really really
1:34:00interesting because if you eat two meals
1:34:02and they've done this study where they
1:34:04had sort of carbs versus sort of uh meat
1:34:08and veggies. So it was bread and orange
1:34:10juice versus um uh chicken and
1:34:14vegetables. And what they did was they
1:34:16gave one group the carbs first, then the
1:34:18meat and vegetables, and then they
1:34:20simply took that same group and flipped
1:34:22them. So they take the same person
1:34:23measure and they gave them the meat and
1:34:26vegetables and then the carbs after like
1:34:2810 minutes, right? And what you see is
1:34:30that when you change the simply the
1:34:31order of the food, the insulin response
1:34:34is significantly lower. It's much
1:34:36better, which means that you're getting
1:34:38less of that signal to store fat. It's
1:34:41like 25% lower. Uh and the thing is that
1:34:44if you think about mechanistically
1:34:46what's happening is that when you eat
1:34:48the bread and orange juice, what happens
1:34:50is that that's 100% carbohydrates. So
1:34:52carbohydrates are glucose and the
1:34:55ultrarocessed carbohydrates are easily
1:34:57digested glucose. So it goes down into
1:34:59the stomach. It goes out of the stomach
1:35:01very quickly into the intestines where
1:35:03it goes into the bloodstream. But that
1:35:05what goes into the intestines is 100%
1:35:07glucose. If you switch it and you put
1:35:10the chicken and vegetables first and
1:35:11then 10 minutes later put the bread and
1:35:13orange juice. What happens is as it gets
1:35:15down is turning through the stomach,
1:35:17it's going to get mixed up, you know? So
1:35:19what goes into the intestines is not
1:35:21100% glucose. There's a little bit of
1:35:23chicken. There's a bit of vegetables and
1:35:24a bit of bread and a bit of orange
1:35:26juice, right? So you're talking about
1:35:27much less. It's not like 100% glucose.
1:35:30So therefore, the rise in glucose, and
1:35:32this gets back to the sort of speed of
1:35:34absorption, is much lower and therefore
1:35:36your insulin response is much lower. But
1:35:38it's the exact same foods in the exact
1:35:40same portions. But it's simply the order
1:35:42that you switched. The you know what's
1:35:44important is that then you say, well,
1:35:46how do you apply that? Well, don't eat
1:35:47the bread at the beginning of the
1:35:49restaurant meal, right? Ask for it to be
1:35:50served with or have it after. You're
1:35:53actually going to do way better if you
1:35:54don't eat the bread at the beginning of
1:35:56the meal because of course when you have
1:35:57it at the beginning of meal, you're
1:35:58going to fill up. You're going to eat
1:35:59more of that bread than if you had the
1:36:01chicken vegetable first. So even though
1:36:02in the experiments they have the same
1:36:04portions, if you actually eat the the
1:36:06the the meat and vegetable first, you're
1:36:09going to wind up eating less of the
1:36:10bread because you're full, right?
1:36:12Because the tidy signaling has already
1:36:14gone on. So food order is very
1:36:16important. Um food time meal timing. So
1:36:19if you eat very late at night, it tends
1:36:21to cause more insulin response. So if
1:36:24you take the same meal, you can measure
1:36:26this. If you take somebody and give them
1:36:27the exact same meal in the morning
1:36:29versus at night, there's a much higher
1:36:32response insulin response if you take
1:36:34the meal at night. It's because in the
1:36:36morning time you actually have the
1:36:38signal from the uh brain,
1:36:42excuse me, you have the signal from the
1:36:44brain that is uh the counter regulatory
1:36:47hormone. So this is part of the
1:36:48circadian rhythm at 5:00 a.m. or so. you
1:36:52got all this growth hormone and cortisol
1:36:53and sympathetic tone which is going to
1:36:56antagonize the effect of the insulin. So
1:36:58therefore when you eat this meal you're
1:37:01not going to get as much insulin
1:37:02response as you will later on at night.
1:37:04So you're actually getting much less by
1:37:06simply moving your meals earlier. And
1:37:08that's the reason a lot of people are
1:37:10using this early TR which is the early
1:37:13uh timerestricted feeding. So instead of
1:37:16saying, you know, okay, we're going to
1:37:17do an eight hour feeding window, but
1:37:19it'll be like sort of like 2 PM to 8:00
1:37:22PM, they're saying, let's move that up
1:37:24to like 10:00 a.m. to 6 p.m. sort of
1:37:27thing, right? So that's the ETR, the
1:37:28early timerestricted feeding.
1:37:30>> And it makes a lot of sense because the
1:37:32point is to try and lower the insulin,
1:37:34one by restricting your feeding window,
1:37:36but also moving it up earlier. So you're
1:37:38taking advantage of the the ways that
1:37:40you can change the foods. So there's
1:37:42different ways. Another one is resistant
1:37:44starch. So another fascinating topic. So
1:37:46resistant starch is a starch that your
1:37:49body doesn't absorb. So you can get this
1:37:52by taking rice, you cool it down like in
1:37:55the fridge or freezer and then you
1:37:57reheat it. And when you do that, what
1:38:00happens when you cool the rice is that
1:38:02some of the starch crystallizes. And
1:38:04that's why when you eat cold rice, it's
1:38:06it's it's inedible. It's brittle. It's
1:38:08really hard. So when you um when you
1:38:11heat it back up, it sort of redesolves
1:38:14into sort of a more normal state, but
1:38:16some of the crystals remain. You can't
1:38:18taste it, but again, because some of the
1:38:20starch is now resistant starch, your
1:38:23body doesn't absorb it. So you're
1:38:25getting again 10, 15, 20% reduction by
1:38:28using that simply cooling and then
1:38:31reheating rice. And they'll taste
1:38:33exactly the same cuz that's what we do
1:38:35when we make fried rice. you actually
1:38:37cool it and then and then uh cook it,
1:38:39right? And you can do the same with
1:38:41potatoes except that you actually can't
1:38:43cool it and then reheat it because when
1:38:44you reheat it, all that resistance
1:38:46starts just melts away. But if you eat
1:38:47cold potatoes like potato salad, uh
1:38:50vinegar is another one. So organic acids
1:38:53when you eat them with carbohydrates
1:38:54reduces the insulin levels, reduces the
1:38:56glycemic index. Why? Because these
1:38:59organic acids, so vinegar is acetic
1:39:01acid. um fermented foods like kimchi and
1:39:03sauerkraut as lactic acids and citric
1:39:06acid from lemon juice they will inhibit
1:39:08salivary amalayise. So what happens when
1:39:11you eat say bread which is a starch you
1:39:14break it down with uh uh this enzyme
1:39:17called amalayise which breaks the
1:39:18glucose into small pieces which makes
1:39:20you absorb it. If you inhibit the
1:39:22salivary amalayise with vinegar for
1:39:25example then the glucose doesn't get
1:39:27chopped up and the absorption goes way
1:39:29down. So instead of getting the big
1:39:31spike, you're getting this sort of slow
1:39:32rise, which is so important. It's the
1:39:34speed of absorption. So again, very
1:39:37simple, like if you're going to eat the
1:39:38bread, have it with the olive oil and
1:39:40vinegar. Don't eat naked carbohydrates,
1:39:42right? Naked carbohydrates are sort of
1:39:44this 100% carbohydrate load. So if
1:39:47you're eating breakfast and you're
1:39:48eating white bread and jam, that's naked
1:39:50carbohydrates. That's all carbohydrates,
1:39:53all refined. And it's the same idea as
1:39:55don't drink on an empty stomach, right?
1:39:56Because the alcohol is going in. you got
1:39:58nothing else to sort of balance it with.
1:40:01So, you're getting all this absorption
1:40:04very quickly, right? Same thing with
1:40:06carbohydrates. Don't do it. Right? So,
1:40:08there's all these different ways.
1:40:09Walking after a meal is another one
1:40:10that's super super interesting. So,
1:40:13they've done these studies which I think
1:40:15are fascinating where, you know, they
1:40:16give somebody a meal, but then they they
1:40:18have them walk. So, they walk them sort
1:40:21of before the meal and then give them
1:40:24the meal. They measure them without
1:40:26walking and they're roughly the same. So
1:40:28if you walk before a meal or if you, you
1:40:30know, don't walk at all, it's about the
1:40:32same. But if you walk after a meal, it
1:40:34blunts the rise in your glucose, right?
1:40:38So you're going to get like 10 or 20%
1:40:41lower insulin, lower glucose effect. And
1:40:45you get the best effect when you
1:40:46immediately walk. And it lasts for about
1:40:49sort of 20 to 30 minutes. So once you
1:40:51get past 30 minutes and you can go for a
1:40:53walk, you're actually not getting that
1:40:54sort of extra little boost, right? And
1:40:56and and it's it's so again, the human
1:41:00body is so smart because it's like, why
1:41:02would that be, right? And it's like,
1:41:04well, think about it. If you're going to
1:41:06walk immediately after a meal, your body
1:41:10is going to want to leave the energy out
1:41:12there for you to use because it's like,
1:41:14hey, you're you're you're you're
1:41:15exercising, you're walking, right? So
1:41:17therefore, if you just, you know, spike
1:41:20up your insulin, all that's going to go
1:41:22into storage. So the body's like, "Okay,
1:41:23let's not push the insulin so high so
1:41:26that we leave some of these calories
1:41:28just floating out there for for
1:41:30everybody to use, right? The glucose for
1:41:32everybody to use." So you see this
1:41:34effect and it's like, okay, well, how do
1:41:36you do that? Well, that's very simple.
1:41:38In California, it is anyway. After every
1:41:41meal, go for a walk and then come home
1:41:43and clean up, right? And you might go
1:41:44for 15, 20 minutes, right? But it's
1:41:47like, oh, that's very simple, but you're
1:41:48going to have major effects because you
1:41:50could go for a walk, but if you go an
1:41:52hour after your meal, you get whatever
1:41:55walking benefit, but you don't get that
1:41:56extra little boost, right?
1:41:59>> It's sort of like, you know, with muscle
1:42:00growth and protein, right? When you
1:42:02exercise, there's that, you know, if you
1:42:04take protein sort of after after
1:42:06exercise, there's actually this window
1:42:08where you get a little bit of extra sort
1:42:10of muscle, right? It's the same thing
1:42:11because the body's so smart. like it it
1:42:14works in ways we don't even understand
1:42:16but then when you look at it you say oh
1:42:17that's pretty smart right leave some of
1:42:20that energy out there so therefore you
1:42:22don't want so much insulin right so
1:42:25these are all different ways you can use
1:42:26to sort of change the diet in ways that
1:42:29are not necessarily just cutting down
1:42:32carbohydrates right and then you think
1:42:34about okay well let's think about how
1:42:36people traditionally eat right you take
1:42:39your bread with olive oil and vinegar
1:42:40it's like whoa
1:42:42That's brilliant, right? You're avoiding
1:42:45the naked carbohydrates. You've got the
1:42:47vinegar. Or you got vinegared rice with
1:42:50sushi. Oh, that's brilliant. Dumplings.
1:42:54What do you do? Classic condiment is
1:42:56vinegar. You dunk that thing in some
1:42:58vinegar. Like vinegar and ginger is sort
1:43:00of classic for dumplings, right? From
1:43:02Chinese cuisine. But it's like, oh,
1:43:04that's so smart, right? because now
1:43:07you're sort of taking it and and and
1:43:09sort of antagonizing it. Any any natural
1:43:12carbohydrates come with a lot of fiber.
1:43:14It's like, oh, well, that's going to
1:43:16work. That's going to counteract the
1:43:18whole, you know, a lot of the negative
1:43:20effects. So, it's not just about
1:43:22carbohydrates. It's about the it's about
1:43:24the hormones, right? And so, you have
1:43:26this process. It's the food that goes to
1:43:29digestion to absorption to hormones to
1:43:31weight gain. And what's weird is that,
1:43:34okay, so we've worked this out. We know
1:43:35all this stuff. This is not new
1:43:38research. So why ignore it? Like why
1:43:41pretend that digest speed of digestion
1:43:43or gastro transit time or speed of
1:43:46absorption? Why pretend it doesn't
1:43:48matter? Why pretend hormones don't
1:43:51matter? Why are you pretending that the
1:43:52only thing is calories? So in in my book
1:43:55I have this diraph and there's like 40
1:43:58different items which I list as you know
1:44:00being important. Some of we talked about
1:44:01it's like so why is everybody focused on
1:44:03that one thing? the one calories thing,
1:44:06right? It's like that makes no sense.
1:44:08Like it's so unscientific, right? It's
1:44:11it's it's it's it's like you focused on,
1:44:14you know, a single item, right? It's
1:44:16like if you're working out and you only
1:44:18work out your right bicep, you won't be
1:44:21healthy, right? You lot of muscles that
1:44:25you need to exercise, right? It's like,
1:44:27come on. Like, why would we do that in
1:44:30in cal like calories? Yes, sure. But
1:44:33hormones,
1:44:35sex hormones, even testosterone,
1:44:37estrogen, because you can manipulate
1:44:38them in different ways, whether it's
1:44:40hormonal therapy or whatever, right? Um,
1:44:43but again, it's like, you know, you can
1:44:44manipulate the the ultrarocessed foods,
1:44:47you can manipulate the sort of uh
1:44:49addiction piece. You can, you know, you
1:44:52can change so many parts of the diet to
1:44:55make a difference.
1:44:56>> Yeah. I mean, you can see, you can see
1:44:57it with the testosterone literature,
1:45:00too. is like, you know, where protein
1:45:02allocation and where does, you know, you
1:45:04give someone x amount of calories and x
1:45:06amount of protein and they're on
1:45:07testosterone replacement, they're going
1:45:08to build more muscle with those
1:45:09calories. And then that has a downstream
1:45:11effect of influencing their basal
1:45:13metabolic rate. And then so then so then
1:45:14it's like what was calories in calories
1:45:16out on day one is not the same as what
1:45:18yes you could still make the argument
1:45:19that it's still calories in calories out
1:45:23but that's not
1:45:25again we're not a closed thermodynamic
1:45:27system where that would apply like
1:45:29linearly. Um
1:45:31>> you mentioned the the protein piece but
1:45:34have you heard of the protein leverage
1:45:35hypothesis before?
1:45:36>> I've heard of it. Um, I mean, I don't
1:45:39know a lot about it. Um, I mean, I think
1:45:42it's,
1:45:44you know, the protein leverage is, I
1:45:47think, and I'm not that up to up on it,
1:45:49but I think it's where essentially the
1:45:52argument is that we're trying to get
1:45:53enough protein.
1:45:54>> Yeah. You'll eat you'll eat until
1:45:56protein needs are met. Yeah.
1:45:57>> Yeah. I I I I'm not really convinced by
1:46:02it. I mean, I think protein is good in a
1:46:05lot of ways, right? Right? So if you
1:46:06look at protein and satiety for example,
1:46:09so you know that protein stimulates a
1:46:10lot of GLP-1. You know it stimulates a
1:46:12lot of peptide Y. You know, you know it
1:46:15doesn't have a lot of carbohydrates, so
1:46:16therefore not a lot of glycemic effect,
1:46:18right? So there's a lot of good things
1:46:19about eating protein. But on the other
1:46:21hand, is there really evidence that
1:46:23we're not eating enough protein? It's
1:46:25like I'm not really sure about that,
1:46:29right? I don't really think so. I think
1:46:31people subsist on much lower proteins
1:46:33than we have and been healthy. That's
1:46:35not necessarily to say optimal, right?
1:46:38So if your goal is to build a lot of
1:46:40muscle, then eating more protein is
1:46:42probably a good thing. On the other
1:46:43hand, it's always been an open question.
1:46:46Um because about you know say 10 years
1:46:49excuse me 10 years ago there is this
1:46:52whole question about protein and mTor
1:46:54right and I think that is still an open
1:46:57question and the question is so we know
1:46:59that protein stimulates this insulin uh
1:47:01this nutrient sensor called mTor and if
1:47:05you eat a lot of protein maybe you're
1:47:07stimulating a lot of mtor which you
1:47:09definitely are uh the question is that
1:47:11bad for you right and it's like it's
1:47:13possible because um you know if you're
1:47:17increasing mTor you're going to increase
1:47:19growth signaling and growth is not
1:47:21always good especially in something like
1:47:24cancer because in cancer for example we
1:47:26know that mTor inhibitors
1:47:29actually do good in terms of certain
1:47:31types of cancer right so rapamy which is
1:47:34mtor inhibitor are is used in many
1:47:38chemotherapeutic regimens was developed
1:47:40as a chemotherapeutic agent also is an
1:47:43anti-inflammatory agent so man, is this
1:47:46mTor really driving a lot of
1:47:48inflammation? Possibly.
1:47:50You know, so that's where it gets really
1:47:53confusing. So it's like, okay, I'm not
1:47:55really sure if it's good or bad, right?
1:47:57Because it's like if mTor is so good
1:48:01that we should be eating more protein,
1:48:03then why is it bad from this other sort
1:48:06of viewpoint that is rapamy may have
1:48:09some prolongevity effects in animals,
1:48:11right? and it has anti-cancer effects
1:48:15and it has anti-inflammatory effects and
1:48:18you're giving him and and you're
1:48:19stimulating mtor by eating all this
1:48:21protein. So, it's like
1:48:22>> it's context dependent for sure.
1:48:24>> Yeah. It to me it's hard to really put
1:48:28together as a full like I know a lot of
1:48:29people there are lots of proponents of
1:48:31just eat lots of protein
1:48:33>> and I'm not entirely convinced that
1:48:34that's that's going to be true. Like
1:48:37obviously a lot of this is very sort of
1:48:40preliminary, right? So if more data
1:48:42comes out, we might have more clarity on
1:48:44that. But you know, to me, the clearest
1:48:46sort of experimental evidence is from
1:48:49drugs because you can infect a single
1:48:52system, right? And and this is, you
1:48:54know, relatively clean. So whether I
1:48:57give you like what happens to your body
1:48:59when I give you insulin? Well, here's
1:49:01the cleanest experiment. Let me give you
1:49:03insulin.
1:49:04>> Yeah. Fair. Fair.
1:49:06>> Or what happens when I increase
1:49:08cortisol? Here's an experiment. Let me
1:49:10give you cortisol. Let me give you GLP1.
1:49:12Let me give you GIP. Let me stimulate
1:49:14your sympathetic nervous system with
1:49:16empmphetamines. Let me stimulate mTor.
1:49:19If works on the other side, let me block
1:49:21this. Right? So, mTor, let me block
1:49:23mTor. What happens? Ooh, there is a lot
1:49:26of good things that happen when you
1:49:27block mTor. So, it's like, oh wait,
1:49:30like, and obviously all of these
1:49:32hormones are natural hormones. So, too
1:49:34too much is good, not good, and too too
1:49:37little is also not good, right? So, you
1:49:39know, that's why some people they go
1:49:40crazy, right? They go, "Oh, mTor is
1:49:42bad." It's like, "No, no, no, no. It's
1:49:44natural. It's just you need to be in
1:49:46this sort of optimal range, right? Don't
1:49:48go too high, don't go too low."
1:49:50Nowadays, we're eating more protein than
1:49:52we ever have. So, maybe amar is a little
1:49:54higher than it than historically.
1:49:58So, should we eat more? I don't know. I
1:50:00I I I I I just don't see a lot of
1:50:03convincing evidence to me that there
1:50:05there's evidence of a protein leverage
1:50:08unless you get to very low levels. Like
1:50:10obviously when people are eating super
1:50:12low levels of protein, yeah, then you
1:50:14give them protein, they're like, "Yeah,
1:50:16let's you know."
1:50:17>> Yeah. My my hunch is on it that I think
1:50:21sometimes we have an overfixation on
1:50:23macronutrients and I've become more and
1:50:25more interested at a micronutrient level
1:50:27and what is what is missing in
1:50:29ultrarocessed foods and things like that
1:50:30and that perhaps when you you have the
1:50:34literature on the protein lever
1:50:35hypothesis is interesting but it's
1:50:36definitely not conclusive. Um, and it
1:50:38does tend to come from people that are
1:50:40more protein deficient, like you said,
1:50:42like where where then then it becomes
1:50:44more important. But the question starts
1:50:46to become perhaps it's downstream of the
1:50:49protein because there's some other
1:50:50literature that shows that well maybe we
1:50:52eat until calcium needs are met. Maybe
1:50:53we eat until specific micronutrient
1:50:55needs are met. And maybe it's just the
1:50:57fact that when you're looking at protein
1:50:59as a whole, there's also, you know,
1:51:01because meat is generally
1:51:04>> fairly nutrientdense, like when you look
1:51:05at beef, nutrient-dense. So maybe it's a
1:51:07zinc issue, maybe it's a calcium issue,
1:51:09maybe it's a so it's hard to point at
1:51:11any individual thing. Uh but I think
1:51:13that the potential still stands that
1:51:16it's more about our body is asking for
1:51:19signals and specific micronutrients and
1:51:22the whole food matrix that we are not
1:51:24getting from processed foods, right? So
1:51:26it's regardless of what it is, protein,
1:51:28calcium, zinc, this, that, when you're
1:51:30talking about it in processed foods,
1:51:33which maybe possibly are fortified, but
1:51:36fortified in really random man-made
1:51:39amounts that is not found in nature,
1:51:42right? That we some guy decides that
1:51:44this is this is the perfect amount of
1:51:46calcium to put in, you know, just a
1:51:48random amount that doesn't take into
1:51:49consideration the rest of the food
1:51:52matrix.
1:51:52>> Yeah. So you're getting again there's
1:51:54that word all these cattywampus signals.
1:51:57Yeah. that are leaving the body with a
1:52:00lot to be desired in terms of like what
1:52:02is considered complete for me and how
1:52:05hungry am I going to remain until I get
1:52:08name that nutrient right
1:52:10>> I think there's actually you know this
1:52:12this concept called food synergy or
1:52:15nutrient synergy which is that if you
1:52:18look at um you know nutrients
1:52:21individually like vitamin A, vitamin B,
1:52:24vitamin C and then try to like you know
1:52:26tinker and put it in like Are you going
1:52:28to do as good a job as eating a piece of
1:52:31liver or something like that, which is,
1:52:33you know, nature's multivitamin, right?
1:52:34There's a whole bunch of stuff in there
1:52:37in the proportions that are probably
1:52:39good for you because we've evolved to
1:52:42eat foods like, you know, meat and liver
1:52:45and kidney and all this sort of stuff,
1:52:48right? So instead of taking this
1:52:51multivitamin with this sort of, oh, I
1:52:54think you should take this and this
1:52:55calcium, this magnesium, this
1:52:57phosphorus, this, like, wouldn't it be
1:52:59better? And there are actually
1:53:00supplements that do this. There's one
1:53:02called ancestral supplements where they
1:53:04say where this is basically freeze-dried
1:53:06liver, right? It's like, that makes a
1:53:09lot more sense. And you're taking this
1:53:11and giving a whole food solution. Yes,
1:53:14it's freezedried and put into a capsule,
1:53:16but at at the end of the day, it came
1:53:18from a liver that you freeze dry, right?
1:53:20As opposed to, oh, I synthesized a bunch
1:53:23of vitamin A and B and C and D and E, F
1:53:25and K and then stuck them all together,
1:53:27right? What do you know about the
1:53:29proportions, right? That that
1:53:31multivitamin does not exist in nature,
1:53:33>> dude. It's you know, the way that I look
1:53:34at that is like um individual like mic
1:53:38or nutrients that are put into like a
1:53:39multivitamin.
1:53:41That's like if you're a tech person like
1:53:44that's like eight bit, right? That's
1:53:45like looking at it in like eight bit
1:53:47where you're like okay like I can see it
1:53:49like that but
1:53:51>> but okay then obviously like the food
1:53:53matrix probably goes up to infinite bit
1:53:56right like you know whatever now you're
1:53:58looking at 64-bit.
1:53:59>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:53:59>> And then there's also probably even
1:54:01other things that we're not even looking
1:54:03at. I mean depends how how woo you want
1:54:04to get but right I mean the energetic
1:54:06signature the value of a food like like
1:54:08how the animal was raised. There's
1:54:10probably even intent behind it if you
1:54:11start getting, you know what I mean? The
1:54:13point is is like we look at it
1:54:15individually in this small lens where be
1:54:17like, okay, 8bit characters, here we go.
1:54:19My my view of this in this really low
1:54:21resolution is that like we need vitamin
1:54:23A, we need vitamin D. What about
1:54:25possibly even other things that we're
1:54:27not even thinking about or looking at?
1:54:28>> Yeah, it's this reductionist view,
1:54:30right? We've reduced it to a problem of
1:54:33vitamin B or something, right? It's
1:54:35like, oh, but there's actually more to
1:54:37it. Or, oh, it's a potassium problem.
1:54:39It's like, but what you don't realize is
1:54:40that the magnesium levels affect your
1:54:42potassium levels, right? So, you
1:54:45actually need it in the right
1:54:46proportion. And how do you know what
1:54:47that right proportion is? Right? And
1:54:49this is to me this bias that we
1:54:52sometimes have where we think we're
1:54:54going to be smarter than than nature,
1:54:56right? It's it's the whole breast milk
1:55:00fiasco all over again. Yep.
1:55:02>> Where, you know, so my mom raised me on
1:55:05formula like everybody. So the 70s was a
1:55:08big formula period, right? And it was
1:55:10because they convinced she actually had
1:55:11no problems breastfeeding. But everybody
1:55:14was convinced that formula was better
1:55:17than breast milk, right?
1:55:19>> Cuz humans are smarter.
1:55:20>> Because you were smarter. We outsmarted
1:55:22like nature, right? And what is
1:55:25interesting, of course, it turned out to
1:55:26be the exact opposite. Breast milk is
1:55:28the best, right? But it actually took a
1:55:30concerted public relations effort in the
1:55:3490s, the breast is best campaign
1:55:37to bring back breast milk because the
1:55:40conceit was not it wasn't limited to
1:55:42breast milk but it was this conceit that
1:55:44we are actually so much smarter than
1:55:47mother nature where I think we do a lot
1:55:50better if we just say I think whatever
1:55:52was natural is probably the best not
1:55:55because of any you
1:55:58God ordained whatever is because that's
1:56:00the way we evolved, right? We evolved to
1:56:03be best with what is natural. So, you
1:56:06can't do better than that, right? So, if
1:56:09you're taking, you know, a multivitamin,
1:56:11take natural, like take some liver, take
1:56:15some nutrient-dense thing that's better
1:56:17for you. If you don't like liver, you
1:56:19can take these supplements or whatever.
1:56:20But at least that is going to be a
1:56:23better approximation of what's good for
1:56:25you than some guy who decided that you
1:56:30needed a bit of A and B and C and D and
1:56:32E and K and zinc and cobalt and you know
1:56:36it's like okay
1:56:37>> you're not going to win that
1:56:38mathematical equation either. You know,
1:56:40you're not going to like because
1:56:42>> you know you mentioned the potassium
1:56:43magnesium. Okay. Well, then you're
1:56:45stressed out and you burn through more
1:56:46and more magnesium stores. Okay. Well,
1:56:48okay. Sorry, that formula doesn't work.
1:56:49We need to, you know, it's just it's I
1:56:53think you've got
1:56:56with how complex we can get with this
1:56:57and how detailed we can get into the
1:56:59mechanisms, it's almost as though simple
1:57:02is better.
1:57:03>> Yeah. Yeah. But I think that the the
1:57:05point also is that well there we're
1:57:08we're not at the pinnacle of knowledge.
1:57:10Like we're always learning, right? Like
1:57:12you know, we always think we're at the
1:57:13pinnacle of knowledge, right? like you
1:57:14know in the 1900s right there's this
1:57:16patent office guy who said I think
1:57:18everything that's invented has been now
1:57:20invented right we can't get better so we
1:57:22always think we're at the pinnacle of
1:57:23knowledge but then when you look back
1:57:25right in the 80s you thought we were
1:57:26that pinnacle of you know knowledge but
1:57:29clearly not right and everything
1:57:31advances it's the same thing like nature
1:57:34is sort of way ahead of us because it's
1:57:36developed over millions or even billions
1:57:38of years right of evolution and we think
1:57:41we're at the pinnacle of knowledge but
1:57:42they're actually way up here. So, you
1:57:45can't see all of what's going on, but
1:57:47they've actually developed all these
1:57:48things, all these homeostatic
1:57:50mechanisms, all these hormones, all of
1:57:53the ways that the controls and it's been
1:57:55relatively successful. And then we come
1:57:57in thinking we're at the pinnacle of
1:57:58knowledge that we're going to actually
1:57:59do a better job, right? It's like, okay,
1:58:02come on. That's that seems ridiculous.
1:58:04That's why you have this concept that
1:58:06Nim Taleb talks about. I don't know if
1:58:08you've read his books. The guys are like
1:58:10brilliant. So he wrote the black swan
1:58:12antifragile. Anyway, he has this concept
1:58:15called the Lindy effect. So uh what it
1:58:18is is basically uh for something that is
1:58:21non-p perishable, the older it is, the
1:58:24longer it's likely to last, right? So if
1:58:27you have a um a song that's been around
1:58:30for a long time, right? Say happy
1:58:32birthday, it's probably going to be
1:58:34around a lot longer, right? If you have
1:58:37a song that's really popular now and
1:58:39then fades, you know, it it's probably
1:58:41gone, right? Or a book, if you have a
1:58:43book like, you know, Julius Caesar by
1:58:46Shakespeare, it's been read for 400
1:58:49years, it'll probably be around for 400
1:58:51more. And that's a Lindy effect. So it's
1:58:53basically the test of time, right? So
1:58:56the time has weeded out all the stuff
1:58:58that isn't useful, right?
1:59:01>> So that's the same with advice. So
1:59:03something like fasting is like the
1:59:06oldest advice in the book. It's
1:59:08literally in the Bible, right? So you
1:59:11know it's at least 2026
1:59:14years old, right? At least. So, if it's
1:59:18relevant for 2,000 plus years of human
1:59:22history, it's likely to be relevant for
1:59:242,000 more as opposed to like something
1:59:28like say seed oils, which is
1:59:29controversial, I'll give you, but seed
1:59:31oils have been around for, you know, a
1:59:33few decades, right? Really took off in
1:59:35the 50s, so six or seven decades. That
1:59:38sort of pales in comparison to this idea
1:59:41that, you know, of not eating
1:59:43ultrarocessed foods, which has been
1:59:44around a lot longer, right? And that was
1:59:46the same conceit, you know, same as the
1:59:47breast is best. This whole thing about
1:59:50margarine.
1:59:51>> Yeah.
1:59:52>> It's like God,
1:59:53>> we know. Let's give you guys trans fats.
1:59:55Let's just like go.
1:59:58>> So the whole thing, right? And I grew up
2:00:00through that whole thing.
2:00:02>> Yeah.
2:00:02>> Don't eat butter. Eat margarine. So much
2:00:06healthier for you. It was horrible,
2:00:08horrible stuff, right? And why? Because
2:00:11it's the Lindy effect. The margarine had
2:00:14only been eat like butter has been eaten
2:00:16for
2:00:17millennia probably, right? Thousands of
2:00:19years. Margarine's been around for like
2:00:2230 or 40 years. It didn't take that
2:00:24long, like a few, you know, a few
2:00:26decades to figure out, wa that stuff is
2:00:29toxic. It's like toxic garbage, right?
2:00:32Now, like you can't even barely find
2:00:34margarine around. It's so it's so bad,
2:00:36right? Because everybody's gone back to
2:00:38butter, right? And it's like, but was
2:00:40denied. Same with um avocados. Like in
2:00:43the 80s, right? I I you'd get an avocado
2:00:47and people like, "Oh, you're gonna get a
2:00:48heart attack." It's like, actually, it
2:00:50turned out to be really good for you. Or
2:00:51olive oil. Olive oil has been around for
2:00:54thousands of years, right? You go to
2:00:56Greece and Spain. Coconut oil, they've
2:00:58been eating it on these, you know, in in
2:01:00the tropics for hundreds, thousands of
2:01:03years. Clearly not going to be that bad
2:01:06for you. If they've been eating coconut
2:01:08oil for, you know, hundreds, thousands
2:01:11of years in those places where it grows
2:01:13very abundantly, that's probably going
2:01:16to be fine because it's obviously not
2:01:18doing anything bad.
2:01:20>> Yeah. We come around in the sort of 80s
2:01:23and say coconut oil is the worst thing
2:01:25because it's so much saturated fat. So
2:01:27remember this whole thing about popcorn
2:01:29being popped in coconut oil, right, in
2:01:31the theaters? It tasted good, so people
2:01:34did it. And then it's like, oh,
2:01:35saturated fat, it's going to kill you.
2:01:37Then they popped it in polyunsaturated
2:01:39oils. And it's like when you deep fry in
2:01:42polyunsaturated oils, it's actually
2:01:43super bad for you because the high heat.
2:01:46Yeah. It's actually super bad. You're
2:01:47actually better cooking in saturated
2:01:49fats because you get less of this
2:01:51oxidation. But, you know, but it's again
2:01:53this conceit that, oh, we're so much
2:01:55smarter than nature.
2:01:56>> Forget that we've been eating butter for
2:01:58thousands of years. We'll give you
2:02:00margarine. That's the the whole uh
2:02:02formula argument too, right? It's all
2:02:05over the place. It's like, oh, let's
2:02:07take creatin powder. It's like, okay,
2:02:09maybe maybe like I don't say that it's
2:02:11not, but the evident like I'd rather you
2:02:14eat some steak because that's the Lindy
2:02:17effect. You've been eating steak. Humans
2:02:19have been eating steak for a long time.
2:02:22It's likely going to be fine.
2:02:24you know, whey powder, creatin powder,
2:02:27whatever powder, not that much. You
2:02:30know, we don't have that that it hasn't
2:02:32withtood yet the test of time.
2:02:34>> No, especially Yeah. I I it's a is a
2:02:36tool in your toolbox and it is an
2:02:38absolutely positively not because we
2:02:41know better than
2:02:42>> the universe, God, nature, you name it,
2:02:45right?
2:02:45>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:02:46No, this is I think this is the the drum
2:02:49that needs to get beaten hard right now
2:02:52because I feel like we have reached a
2:02:54point of um optimization exhaustion and
2:02:58this ridiculous perfectionism where
2:03:01>> um and you can complicate fasting as
2:03:03much as you want. You know, you can do
2:03:05different things. You can make it
2:03:06complicated uh if you want to. You can
2:03:08you can do olive oil fasting. You can do
2:03:10sardine fasting. You can do X fasting.
2:03:12You can break a fast this way. the end
2:03:14of the day, all those things are fine
2:03:15and dandy. If they, you know, if they uh
2:03:18float your boat, that's cool.
2:03:20But the underlying message is simple,
2:03:22right? It's we go back to these we go
2:03:24back to these basics and we and we we
2:03:27learn the systems and we become in touch
2:03:29with our bodies again and we we we stop
2:03:32easier said than done but having these
2:03:35constant uh barrage of just signals that
2:03:39are making us hungry all the time and we
2:03:41come back and you know face facts with
2:03:43who we are right
2:03:44>> and the two you know I have three golden
2:03:47rules right the one is sort of avoid
2:03:49ultrarocessed foods right that's number
2:03:51one so basically eat real food. The
2:03:54second is make sure you do some fasting.
2:03:56It's like, is there any older rules in
2:03:59the book for good health than eat real
2:04:03food and make sure there's a period of
2:04:05time that you don't eat, right? Fast
2:04:07sometimes, right?
2:04:09>> It's like that's like the most basic,
2:04:12the most ancient wisdom that we have.
2:04:15Yeah.
2:04:15>> And that's why I made them the golden
2:04:17rules. The third is to sort of redesign
2:04:19your life so that you get rid of some of
2:04:21these social cues. So maintain a social
2:04:23environment that allows you to succeed.
2:04:24So make sure and and this incorporates
2:04:27it's a little sort of more nebulous but
2:04:29it it actually is important. This this
2:04:31is the whole thing about you know the
2:04:33food cues and surrounding yourself with
2:04:35the right people and stuff right and
2:04:38having a purpose and having community
2:04:40and all this sort of stuff. Having the
2:04:41right mindset e it is nebulous but on
2:04:44the other hand it's actually really
2:04:46really important. It's like optimism,
2:04:48right? Like you can't measure it, but
2:04:51there was a study I saw. There's a clear
2:04:53association between people who are
2:04:55optimistic and people who live longer,
2:04:57right? It's like because when your
2:05:00mindset is positive,
2:05:03that influences how you see things.
2:05:05>> Yep.
2:05:06>> And it just changes your whole outlook.
2:05:09>> It you could even argue it changes your
2:05:11outcome, right?
2:05:12>> Oh, I think it outcome. get like double
2:05:16slit experiment, right? It's it's
2:05:17everything is just a frequency until it
2:05:19collapses into observation, right? So,
2:05:20it's like how you view it, your intent,
2:05:22that gratitude that that that makes a
2:05:25difference. And it's probably not it
2:05:27isn't measurable, but that may literally
2:05:29shape your reality.
2:05:30>> I think so. And it certainly, you know,
2:05:33you can see snippets of it like if you
2:05:35are optimistic or you have forgiveness
2:05:37or you have mindfulness, like you know,
2:05:40you'll see things differently, right?
2:05:42And maybe if you have less anger, you
2:05:44have less cortisol, which clearly is a
2:05:46good thing, right? If you do meditation
2:05:47and stuff, you can sort of artificially
2:05:50do it. But if you change your mindset,
2:05:51you can also do it, right?
2:05:53>> And it's like you look at these people
2:05:54who are, you know, the happiest, right?
2:05:57And it's like, you know, people, you
2:05:59know, you see them, right? It's like
2:06:02they're they're happy because they're,
2:06:05you know, able to walk around. They've
2:06:07got their family. They've got good
2:06:09friends. They've got food, right? It's
2:06:12not that they've got $30 million in the
2:06:14bank, you know? Those are like the most
2:06:16miserable people sometimes because
2:06:18they're worried that somebody can take
2:06:19that money away from them, right?
2:06:21Whereas like the happiest people are
2:06:23like, you know, those and I have a lot
2:06:25of these patients who are like 90, 95,
2:06:27100 and still doing well. And you look
2:06:30at them and like they live simply, they
2:06:32walk a lot, they move a lot, they have
2:06:34family, they that surrounds them, and
2:06:37you know, they do things for the family,
2:06:39the family does things for them. It's
2:06:40like what else do you really need?
2:06:42Right? What else are you really looking
2:06:44for? Right? That's the good life right
2:06:46there.
2:06:47>> Yep.
2:06:47>> And it's like and and sometimes a lot of
2:06:49these longevity people they're talking
2:06:50about, oh this, oh that, oh grip,
2:06:53strength, oh that. It's like um I think
2:06:56you're missing some really important
2:06:58other stuff, right? Like purpose.
2:07:02>> You want you want to hold on and control
2:07:04so much
2:07:05>> that you're missing the point, you know?
2:07:08It's like you just it's sometime
2:07:10sometimes it comes across borderline
2:07:12narcissistic. It's like you really want
2:07:13to live that long by holding on to that
2:07:15one thing or do you want to just
2:07:16>> like
2:07:17>> love, have gratitude, embrace
2:07:19connection, like enjoy your life and
2:07:21maybe not try to squeeze in this one
2:07:23thing. And it's uh man, it's just it's
2:07:26eye opening once
2:07:28>> you feel what gratitude and just
2:07:30>> positivity, right? And and I think this
2:07:32is one of the things um that religion
2:07:35has done very well, right? And this is
2:07:37not one particular religion, but almost
2:07:39all religions, right? what they do is of
2:07:41course there's um a lot of prayer which
2:07:44is very similar to meditation right you
2:07:46you're bringing people together all the
2:07:48time so whether it's once a week or
2:07:50every few days right you're getting
2:07:52together you're doing the same thing you
2:07:54feel like there's a purpose to your life
2:07:57right oh there's this divine plan
2:07:58whatever it is right and obviously
2:08:00different religions have different
2:08:01emphases on things that's like oh you
2:08:04know you're like ticking off all the
2:08:06boxes here right you you have fasting
2:08:09right? You have community, you have
2:08:12purpose, you have love. It's like, ooh,
2:08:16just because you can't measure these
2:08:18things like purpose and love doesn't
2:08:20mean that they're not important. It
2:08:22means you can't measure them, right?
2:08:23That's all it is, right? It's it's it's
2:08:26not V2 max, right? It's uh you know it's
2:08:29like you know that but but I I I just
2:08:32think that sometimes you have to sort of
2:08:35step back and just say well let's look
2:08:37and see like these are the people who
2:08:39are doing really really good like it's
2:08:42you know and how can organized religion
2:08:44have survived this long
2:08:47>> in whatever form right whether it's
2:08:48Buddhism or you know Judaism or
2:08:52Christianity or Islam it it doesn't
2:08:54matter right they have they share these
2:08:56sort of things, right? The community,
2:08:58the love, the purpose, all of these
2:09:00things, the fasting. So, they share all
2:09:02of these same attributes and yet they've
2:09:05all persisted over thousands of years,
2:09:08right? That's the Lindy effect. What is
2:09:10it about these, right? Well, clearly
2:09:12there must be something there cuz
2:09:14they're not idiots, right? Yeah.
2:09:16>> It survived. Religion has survived.
2:09:19>> Maybe because it does people good. and
2:09:22and and maybe it it's maybe we need to
2:09:25learn a little bit like be a little bit
2:09:27more sort of open-minded to the
2:09:30possibilities just like the calories
2:09:31discussion, right? Like it'd be good to
2:09:33be a bit more open-minded about the
2:09:35whole thing. It's like fasting 10 years
2:09:38ago, I was taking tremendous heat
2:09:40because it's like, "Oh, you're going to
2:09:42kill people. You're going to kill people
2:09:43like 12 hours. Oh my god."
2:09:45>> Yeah.
2:09:46>> It's like people can't do that.
2:09:47>> Yeah.
2:09:48>> It's like Yes, they can.
2:09:50>> Yeah. It's it's when it all becomes a
2:09:52religion that it's a problem, right?
2:09:53It's just like just like the calories
2:09:54discussion can become a like when I say
2:09:56religion, I mean this dogmatic religion,
2:09:58right? It's just like if you would
2:10:00looked at religion in the world today,
2:10:01like yeah, a lot less hate would
2:10:04probably happen if there was a little
2:10:05bit more open-mindedness to the other
2:10:07religions, right? And understanding that
2:10:08what what's the commonality? What's the
2:10:10common denominators here? Some of these
2:10:11things like the connection, the the
2:10:13fasting, the purity, the connection to
2:10:15source, right? These are the things
2:10:16that, you know, fill in the blank. It's
2:10:18these common denominators and it's the
2:10:22same sort of thing like when you look at
2:10:23like the simplicity of diet like what is
2:10:25okay across the board with all these
2:10:27different kind of diets like what is
2:10:28sort of the common denominator right
2:10:30you're listening to natural cues you're
2:10:32not eating processed foods you're you
2:10:34know you're coming back to the basic
2:10:35you're taking breaks from food okay hm
2:10:38interesting right exactly so we're
2:10:39coming back to this common denominators
2:10:41here but
2:10:43>> and where can everyone a find your book
2:10:45and where can everyone find you online
2:10:48Yeah. So, the book is available
2:10:49everywhere. It's uh you know, I'm really
2:10:52excited about this book, honestly. It's
2:10:53a sort of follow-up to the obesity code.
2:10:56It's my first book I've written in about
2:10:58six years, and it's because I think that
2:11:00there's actually, you know, I thought I
2:11:02was sort of done, but then as I reading
2:11:03more and all this new research, I like
2:11:05there are really important aspects that
2:11:08need to be sort of brought forth, right?
2:11:11this these whole I all these ideas about
2:11:14sort of hideonic hunger conditioned
2:11:16hunger environmental stimulus really
2:11:19important so that that's available
2:11:21everywhere now and you know I've read
2:11:22read a lot of books but there's really
2:11:24not a lot of discussion about what is
2:11:26hunger how do we deal with hunger right
2:11:28and that I think is is is an important
2:11:31change to make um and on social media
2:11:33you can find me on YouTube under Jason
2:11:35fun or uh follow me on x.com or
2:11:39Instagram under Dr. Jason phone.
2:11:41>> Perfect, man. Thank you very much.
2:11:43>> Thank you.
2:11:44>> Real pleasure.

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