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Dr Georgia Fisher - Using the Theoretical Domains Framework in implementation research — Transcript

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  1. 0:00hello everyone welcome to the February
  2. 0:022024 meeting of the implementation
  3. 0:04science interest group where Dr georia
  4. 0:06Fisher will be presenting on using the
  5. 0:08theoretical domains framework in
  6. 0:10healthcare research just to note that
  7. 0:13this introduction recording was done
  8. 0:15after the fact is there were a few
  9. 0:17technical issues on the day um we have
  10. 0:20edited the technical issues out of the
  11. 0:22recording but if the audio jumps around
  12. 0:24a bit that is why hopefully it should be
  13. 0:28fairly consistent though through
  14. 0:29Georgia's presid presentation so just to
  15. 0:31fill in an acknowledgement of country
  16. 0:33for the introduction so I acknowledge
  17. 0:35the traditional custodians of the mccy
  18. 0:37University land the water mle Clan of
  19. 0:39the darag nation whose cultures and
  20. 0:41Customs have nurtured and continue to
  21. 0:43nurture this land since the dream time
  22. 0:45we pay our respects to Elders past
  23. 0:47present and
  24. 0:48future this next slide is just an
  25. 0:50overview of the committee and where you
  26. 0:52can contact us and then over to Georgia
  27. 0:56Fisher's presentation so Dr Fisher is a
  28. 1:00postdoctoral fellow at the Australian
  29. 1:01Institute of Health Innovation and we'll
  30. 1:04be presenting today on facilitating
  31. 1:06practice change using the theoretical
  32. 1:08domains framework and CB model in
  33. 1:11healthcare research it really piqued my
  34. 1:13interest um because I found that as a
  35. 1:16clinician it was really hard to assess
  36. 1:20new uh and I tried to find the best
  37. 1:23research evidence that I could for the
  38. 1:25condition and I really wasn't able to
  39. 1:28use it in practice um because lots of
  40. 1:30different things were getting it in the
  41. 1:31way so I started off doing um a PhD at
  42. 1:35the University of Technology Sydney
  43. 1:37which specifically AED to look at both
  44. 1:39prop reception and unilateral neglect
  45. 1:42after a stroke uh and the main focus of
  46. 1:45the thesis was to figure out how we
  47. 1:46could assess it better in clinical
  48. 1:48practice in ways that were suitable to
  49. 1:50clinicians and that suited the ways that
  50. 1:52they
  51. 1:53practiced um after that PhD I took a
  52. 1:57poststructural fellowship at
  53. 1:58Neuroscience research Australia in the
  54. 2:00lab of Simon gandia looking at proper
  55. 2:03exception in motor impairment uh and
  56. 2:05this was a far more lab based poster
  57. 2:07which I really enjoyed it gave me really
  58. 2:09good grounding uh in bench research um
  59. 2:12but I found that I really wanted to get
  60. 2:13back to um my clinical Roots so I've
  61. 2:16started a postto here at AI I'm
  62. 2:19currently looking at learning Health
  63. 2:20Systems but I have a broader um focus on
  64. 2:23implementation science um in my
  65. 2:26research so today as I said I'll be
  66. 2:29talking about the the Ral domains
  67. 2:30framework which is a framework that I've
  68. 2:32used uh quite a bit in my own research
  69. 2:35um I came to working with it because in
  70. 2:37my PhD I was trying to find a way to
  71. 2:40figure out um what were the barriers and
  72. 2:43enablers that kind of got in the way of
  73. 2:45assessing spatial neglect in clinical
  74. 2:47practice and because I was looking at it
  75. 2:49at the level of the clinician I really
  76. 2:51liked the way that this framework um
  77. 2:53kind of spoke to individual determinance
  78. 2:55of behavior but at the same time taking
  79. 2:57into the context that clinicians were
  80. 2:59working in
  81. 3:01so the aim today will be to give you an
  82. 3:04overview of the framework um and also
  83. 3:08map it to some practical ways that we
  84. 3:10can use it um in our
  85. 3:13research so the theoretical domains
  86. 3:15framework was developed to identify
  87. 3:18influences on Behavior particularly for
  88. 3:20health professional behavior um it
  89. 3:22brought together quite a lot of
  90. 3:24experience and knowledge in its
  91. 3:26development in that it was developed by
  92. 3:28a lot of psychological theorists Health
  93. 3:30Service researchers and health
  94. 3:31psychologists and it the good job that
  95. 3:33it did was combining a lot of theories
  96. 3:36of behavior into one framework that we
  97. 3:38can kind of use to analyze the way that
  98. 3:40behavior is
  99. 3:42driven so there was 33 theories of
  100. 3:44behavior that were brought together and
  101. 3:46from these 128 theoretical constructs
  102. 3:49were identified which is still a bit
  103. 3:50much for us to use in our day-to-day
  104. 3:52research so they clustered them into 14
  105. 3:55domains and then um underw these domains
  106. 3:58underwent quite an extensive value
  107. 3:59validation via discriminate content
  108. 4:01validation and a fuzzy cluster analysis
  109. 4:04which is just two more fancy ways of
  110. 4:05checking that um categories are in fact
  111. 4:08what they seem to
  112. 4:12be okay so the tdf has been used in
  113. 4:15countless research studies both in
  114. 4:16healthcare and also in other fields so
  115. 4:18it's broadening out um and a search of
  116. 4:20the theoretical domains framework in
  117. 4:22PubMed yields
  118. 4:251,386 results but as you can see at the
  119. 4:27graph there the number is really growing
  120. 4:29exponentially
  121. 4:30each year so its popularity is
  122. 4:32increasing um it's been used by
  123. 4:34researchers from over 80 countries
  124. 4:36including those from UCL Kings College
  125. 4:38in London the University of
  126. 4:41Edinburgh so it's a nice broad reach
  127. 4:44that the framework um is getting and
  128. 4:46it's important though to remember that
  129. 4:48this is a theoretical framework rather
  130. 4:50than a theory itself it does not propose
  131. 4:52testable relationships between elements
  132. 4:55it just kind of helps you decide what
  133. 4:56those elements might be and then it's up
  134. 4:58to you to kind of go the next step after
  135. 5:02that uh so just a little bit of an
  136. 5:05overview of a few studies that have used
  137. 5:07the tdf so it's been looked at impr
  138. 5:09professional teamwork in operating
  139. 5:11theater looking at barriers to physical
  140. 5:13activity um in pregnant
  141. 5:16women um influencing um vaccinations in
  142. 5:21the
  143. 5:21states and also um training skills in um
  144. 5:27sorry training train and trainer models
  145. 5:29to ensure that knowledge gets um put
  146. 5:31into
  147. 5:33practice so now we're going to dive into
  148. 5:36what makes up the theoretical domains
  149. 5:38framework and what are those 14
  150. 5:39determinants um that it comprises the
  151. 5:42first one is knowledge and I'm just
  152. 5:44going to go through the cut and dry
  153. 5:45definition of each of these before we
  154. 5:47get to their application so and the
  155. 5:49awareness of the existence of something
  156. 5:51the basic definition the second one is
  157. 5:54skills so an ability or proficiency
  158. 5:56acquired through practice and these can
  159. 5:58be physical skills or more emotional or
  160. 6:00psychological skills as
  161. 6:03well your social and professional role
  162. 6:05and identity which is defined as a
  163. 6:07coherent set of behaviors and personal
  164. 6:10qualities that you inhibit in your
  165. 6:12either social or work setting and it
  166. 6:14would be different between the
  167. 6:17two your beliefs about your capabilities
  168. 6:20so your acceptance of the truth reality
  169. 6:22or validity about an ability Talent or
  170. 6:26facility that you could put to a
  171. 6:27constructive use
  172. 6:31your optimism about a particular
  173. 6:33Behavior so your confidence that things
  174. 6:34will happen for the best or that your
  175. 6:36goals will be
  176. 6:38attained your beliefs about the
  177. 6:40consequences of a behavior um so the
  178. 6:43outcomes of um kind of exhibiting a
  179. 6:46behavior in a given situation and these
  180. 6:48could be positive or
  181. 6:51negative the reinforcement that the
  182. 6:54behavior provides you so the probability
  183. 6:56of a response um between the rewards
  184. 6:59that you get or the outcome of the
  185. 7:01behavior and um
  186. 7:04the uh sorry the rewards that it gives
  187. 7:08you um your intentions so your conscious
  188. 7:11decision to perform a behavior or to
  189. 7:13resolve to act in a certain way and
  190. 7:15these are similarly related to the goals
  191. 7:17that you might have so these are a
  192. 7:19little bit more concrete mental
  193. 7:21representations of outcomes or end
  194. 7:23states that uh you as an individual want
  195. 7:25to
  196. 7:28achieve something call your memory
  197. 7:30attention and decision processes so your
  198. 7:32ability to retain information to focus
  199. 7:35selectively on aspects of the
  200. 7:36environment and to choose between two or
  201. 7:38more Alternatives uh and a more concrete
  202. 7:41example of this might be kind of
  203. 7:42decision fatigue when you have too many
  204. 7:44options available and you find it hard
  205. 7:46to pick between them um that it would be
  206. 7:49fit into this category um of the
  207. 7:53tdf this is a really big one your
  208. 7:55environmental context and the resources
  209. 7:57that are available to you so any circum
  210. 7:59an of your situation that either
  211. 8:01discourages or encourages you to develop
  212. 8:04uh all the other determinants of
  213. 8:06Behavior Uh and kind of gives you the
  214. 8:08opportunity to exhibit a particular
  215. 8:11Behavior your social influences so all
  216. 8:14of the interpersonal processes that are
  217. 8:16around you um really common in
  218. 8:18healthcare because we work in teams um
  219. 8:20so the social interactions within a team
  220. 8:22will influence how the team
  221. 8:25behaves emotions um so by definition are
  222. 8:29complex reaction patterns um kind of
  223. 8:32involving many elements which you
  224. 8:35attempt to process a behavior or a
  225. 8:37matter or an
  226. 8:39event and finally the way that your
  227. 8:41behavior is regulated so this is really
  228. 8:44Broad and covers anything made aimed at
  229. 8:46managing or objectively changing um
  230. 8:49actions that you can observe or
  231. 8:52measure so that was kind of the
  232. 8:54theoretical summary of the tdf um and
  233. 8:58these 14 determinant um can kind of
  234. 9:02inform what are the barriers to a
  235. 9:04particular behavior and what are the
  236. 9:06enablers to a particular Behavior by
  237. 9:08breaking down how people are acting into
  238. 9:10these
  239. 9:13categories now as I mentioned before the
  240. 9:17theoretical domains framework is not uh
  241. 9:19kind of doesn't look at the
  242. 9:20relationships between elements but
  243. 9:22what's the nice thing about it is that
  244. 9:24it has been um mapped to um a thing
  245. 9:27called the comb model and the behavior
  246. 9:29whe and these things do give a little
  247. 9:31bit more of a an idea on how exactly
  248. 9:34people's behavior is being influenced by
  249. 9:36combining different determinants of
  250. 9:41behavior so now first a background to
  251. 9:45the comb uh similar to the tdf we're
  252. 9:47going to first look at why it was
  253. 9:49developed so it was developed because to
  254. 9:52design Behavior change interventions we
  255. 9:54need to choose strategies that will have
  256. 9:56the greatest effect particularly in
  257. 9:58healthcare we're often Limited in our
  258. 9:59resources so we really need to Target
  259. 10:01the things that we do appropriately um
  260. 10:04so the ideal way for us to do this is to
  261. 10:06base the strategies that we choose on
  262. 10:08established behavioral
  263. 10:10theories however there's a few issues
  264. 10:12with some behavioral research in that
  265. 10:14interventions commonly don't fully
  266. 10:17analyze the target behavior before they
  267. 10:19try to intervene on it um they often
  268. 10:21don't use theories to predict mechanisms
  269. 10:23of action they're often based on
  270. 10:26implicit or common sense models of
  271. 10:28behavior uh and this is through no fault
  272. 10:30of their own I think it's just a
  273. 10:31pragmatic response to not having the
  274. 10:33time and kind of having to pick the best
  275. 10:35action that seems logically good um and
  276. 10:39a lot of them use one or two theories
  277. 10:40that don't cover the entire range of
  278. 10:42possible influences on
  279. 10:44Behavior so all of these factors were
  280. 10:46recognized in 2011 by Susan mitching and
  281. 10:50her colleagues who designed the
  282. 10:55com now the combi stands for capability
  283. 10:59of opportunity motivation and how these
  284. 11:02interact with a certain Behavior it was
  285. 11:05developed via systemic search of
  286. 11:07electronic databases and consultation
  287. 11:09with behavior change experts uh and the
  288. 11:12search and consultations aim to identify
  289. 11:14Frameworks of behavior change
  290. 11:16interventions and then these Frameworks
  291. 11:18were judged against a criteria of
  292. 11:20comprehensiveness coherence and a clear
  293. 11:22link to an overarching model of
  294. 11:27behavior so this is is the resultant
  295. 11:30comb model and the black arrows on
  296. 11:33screen kind of show the interactions
  297. 11:35between its facets so you can see that
  298. 11:39your capability and your opportunity can
  299. 11:41influence your motivation and that
  300. 11:43there's kind of a biral influence
  301. 11:45between all three elements and the
  302. 11:48target Behavior itself in that it's kind
  303. 11:51of like a positive feedback loop if
  304. 11:52you're doing a behavior you're getting
  305. 11:55reinforcement and kind of experiencing
  306. 11:57the behavior which could increase your
  307. 11:59opportunity to do the behavior or your
  308. 12:01skills to exhibit the behavior so it's
  309. 12:04really just a back and forth um
  310. 12:06relationship
  311. 12:08there so if we look at the individual
  312. 12:10components um your capability can be
  313. 12:13thought of as your psychological
  314. 12:15capability to engage in the necessary
  315. 12:17thought processes to complete a behavior
  316. 12:20or your physical capability um to
  317. 12:22complete a behavior so whether you're
  318. 12:24you have the skills necessary to
  319. 12:26actually complete
  320. 12:27it next looking at your opportunity so
  321. 12:30your physical opportunity afforded from
  322. 12:32the environment around you but also your
  323. 12:35social opportunity from the culture that
  324. 12:37surrounds you and the social norms that
  325. 12:38surround you and finally your motivation
  326. 12:42so what reflective processes are you
  327. 12:45using to kind of select the behaviors
  328. 12:47that you'll exhibit involving
  329. 12:49evaluations and plans and then the more
  330. 12:52automatic motivation or AO automatic
  331. 12:54processes which are more impulsive and
  332. 12:57involve a little bit more emotion
  333. 13:02and um if you think about something
  334. 13:05slightly left a field in terms of the
  335. 13:07criminal system if we want to look at
  336. 13:09how if someone has committed a crime we
  337. 13:11often look at motive means and intent
  338. 13:14and that's kind of in a lot of criminal
  339. 13:16systems the way that we prove that
  340. 13:17someone has done a crime or done a
  341. 13:21particular behavior that we're looking
  342. 13:22at and that's actually kind of what the
  343. 13:24combi is based on so we're looking at
  344. 13:26your motivation your opportunity um um
  345. 13:30and your capability to exhibit a
  346. 13:33behavior so this kind of model of
  347. 13:36behavior is really longstanding and it's
  348. 13:37present in lots of different aspects of
  349. 13:39society here we're just taking it and
  350. 13:41applying it to behaviors for healthcare
  351. 13:43practitioners um in
  352. 13:46particular so then if we look at the
  353. 13:48combi and the tdf U map on to each other
  354. 13:52so here we've got the comb so capability
  355. 13:55opportunity and motivation broken down
  356. 13:58into the
  357. 13:59two subcomponents each and then around
  358. 14:02the edges we've got the elements of the
  359. 14:04tdf as they map on to the comb so we'll
  360. 14:07just go around the wheel uh looking at
  361. 14:09them together so you've got social
  362. 14:12influences which quite obviously link to
  363. 14:14your social
  364. 14:15opportunity got your environmental
  365. 14:17context and resources which links to
  366. 14:19your physical
  367. 14:21opportunity uh your reflective
  368. 14:23motivation comprises quite a few of the
  369. 14:25tdf determinants so your social and
  370. 14:27professional role and identity
  371. 14:29your beliefs about your capabilities
  372. 14:31your optimism towards the behavioral
  373. 14:33outcome and your intentions and your
  374. 14:35goals and also your beliefs about
  375. 14:37possible
  376. 14:39consequences whereas your automatic
  377. 14:41motivation again um more reactive is the
  378. 14:44reinforcement or the rewards that the
  379. 14:46behavior provides you and also the
  380. 14:48emotions that you might have towards the
  381. 14:52behavior next moving to capability so
  382. 14:55your psychological capability is made up
  383. 14:57of your knowledge um um your cognitive
  384. 15:00and interpersonal skills and then the
  385. 15:02way that you make decisions and also
  386. 15:05your memory and your
  387. 15:06attention and finally looking at your
  388. 15:09physical SC capability which is more
  389. 15:10your physical skills um to exhibit a
  390. 15:13particular
  391. 15:14Behavior so if we start to breake a
  392. 15:17behavior dip down first by the tdf
  393. 15:20components we can then map it on to the
  394. 15:22comb to kind of see how they're these
  395. 15:24factors are interacting and get an image
  396. 15:26of why people might be behaving in a
  397. 15:29certain
  398. 15:31way uh and then the nice thing is is
  399. 15:34that once we've identified which aspects
  400. 15:37of the comb are influencing Behavior
  401. 15:40there's been a lot of work done in
  402. 15:42evidence-based strategies to then go and
  403. 15:44change that behavior so if we're looking
  404. 15:47at capability um physical and
  405. 15:49psychological um you can see here in the
  406. 15:52table that to Target someone's
  407. 15:54psychological capability we might look
  408. 15:56at Education and Training but also
  409. 15:58enablement and empowerment strategies uh
  410. 16:01to Target someone's physical capability
  411. 16:03we'd look at training and enablement as
  412. 16:06well looking now more at motivation so
  413. 16:10your reflective motivation can be
  414. 16:12targeted through a number of means and
  415. 16:14your automatic motivation through a few
  416. 16:16more by restructuring your environment
  417. 16:19um looking at people in the environment
  418. 16:22as models for behavior and again by
  419. 16:26enablement uh and finally looking at
  420. 16:29your opportunity so your physical and
  421. 16:31social these things are much more about
  422. 16:33the environment around you and also any
  423. 16:36restrictions that we could place on that
  424. 16:37environment to kind of encourage a
  425. 16:39particular
  426. 16:43Behavior so now putting it all into
  427. 16:46practice that was a very uh brief
  428. 16:48summary of the tdf and the comi uh and
  429. 16:51I'd like to now put it into um context
  430. 16:54of a case study um a study um of how you
  431. 16:57might actually do it in um in practice
  432. 17:01so Improvement in healthcare we usually
  433. 17:03use um pdsa Cycles or for quality
  434. 17:06improvement which uh plan do study and
  435. 17:10act and the important thing is is that
  436. 17:12when we actually get to doing uh or
  437. 17:15implementing a change we often don't
  438. 17:18integrate Behavior change theory into
  439. 17:20these steps it's often as I said before
  440. 17:23quite pragmatic which is absolutely
  441. 17:25understandable but I think we can really
  442. 17:27learn a lot from integrating um these
  443. 17:29theories into our pdsa cycles and it's
  444. 17:32in particularly important as if if we're
  445. 17:34using qualitative research to gather
  446. 17:36data about our quality improvement or
  447. 17:39our research
  448. 17:40interventions if certain questions are
  449. 17:42not asked of people you may not get a
  450. 17:44good picture of all of the influences on
  451. 17:46someone's behavior and so that's kind of
  452. 17:49why the tdf is a good tool in that by
  453. 17:52designing our research studies with it
  454. 17:54in mind designing the questions that we
  455. 17:56ask people in qualitative investigation
  456. 17:59we can make sure that we've covered a
  457. 18:01lot of different possible determinants
  458. 18:03of behavior so that we can be more
  459. 18:05confident that we have a really clear
  460. 18:07picture of what's driving people to act
  461. 18:09in a certain way in clinical settings
  462. 18:11and then um change that behavior
  463. 18:16eventually so in terms of dining
  464. 18:19designing a data collection to use the
  465. 18:21tdf and the combi how to get the
  466. 18:23information you want will depend on a
  467. 18:25lot of things as it usually does in
  468. 18:27research so convenience your pragmatism
  469. 18:30the sample size that you can actually
  470. 18:32get or that you do actually want your
  471. 18:34research question and how much you
  472. 18:36currently know about the problem for
  473. 18:39example interviews might be best when
  474. 18:41you don't know a lot about the
  475. 18:43implementation factors in a particular
  476. 18:44behavior and it can provide really they
  477. 18:47can provide really rich data but once
  478. 18:49you get have done a lot of interviews or
  479. 18:51you've got some rich qualitative data
  480. 18:53and you've got a good handle on what
  481. 18:55might be influencing um factors on
  482. 18:57people's behavior
  483. 18:59you could then maybe look at surveys um
  484. 19:01once those behavioral determinants are
  485. 19:04established they can provide a quicker
  486. 19:05way to get out the things that are
  487. 19:07driving people by kind of Designing the
  488. 19:09survey questions and mapping them to the
  489. 19:11tdf as one
  490. 19:13example finally you might consider using
  491. 19:16structured observations to supplement
  492. 19:18these forms of data collections just as
  493. 19:20a good means of triangulating people's
  494. 19:22self-reported
  495. 19:24information 31 sorry if I could just get
  496. 19:27you to mute mute your mic if you're
  497. 19:29watching along at home thank
  498. 19:31you um so these are just a good way of
  499. 19:35um triangulating people self-reported
  500. 19:37information because as we know people
  501. 19:39might report things that aren't
  502. 19:40necessarily reflective of what they're
  503. 19:42doing in real
  504. 19:44life but regardless of your study or
  505. 19:47quality improvement activity design it's
  506. 19:49important that the if the tdf has being
  507. 19:51used for analysis then it's also used to
  508. 19:53inform your data collection so you're
  509. 19:56designing your um data collection in
  510. 19:58struments to map to the tdf as well as
  511. 20:01your data analysis
  512. 20:05strategies and there are lots of
  513. 20:07published studies that have used the tdf
  514. 20:09for interviews and and focus groups and
  515. 20:10when I'm designing a study I don't like
  516. 20:12to reinvent the wheel I usually just
  517. 20:14find a few published pieces of work that
  518. 20:16are similar to my own they will usually
  519. 20:18publish their question Banks and I can
  520. 20:20use them as kind of the inspiration for
  521. 20:23the questions that I'd like to
  522. 20:25ask um for example below are some
  523. 20:28interview questions um from a study that
  524. 20:30looked at pharmacist provision of
  525. 20:31self-care advice for antibiotics and the
  526. 20:34associated tdf domains are in Brackets
  527. 20:37after the question so the first one is
  528. 20:39could you tell me a bit about how the
  529. 20:41general public raise or discuss common
  530. 20:43infections with you in the pharmacy
  531. 20:46which is looking at the environmental
  532. 20:47context and resources so what's
  533. 20:49happening in the pharmacy uh in this
  534. 20:52study the second one is looking at can
  535. 20:54you tell me about situations where you
  536. 20:56decide to not give self-care advice
  537. 20:58advice um for antibiotic prescription
  538. 21:01and you could probe further by asking
  539. 21:03what makes you decide that this advice
  540. 21:05isn't required and this is really
  541. 21:06looking at um someone's memory intention
  542. 21:09but more pointedly their decision-
  543. 21:11making processes so how are they
  544. 21:13deciding to give self-care
  545. 21:15advice and finally another example is
  546. 21:18what kind of attitudes have you
  547. 21:19encountered when giving self-care advice
  548. 21:22and how satisfied our patients with the
  549. 21:24advice that you give them and this is
  550. 21:27really looking at the social influences
  551. 21:29CU we know that sometimes we don't like
  552. 21:31to rock the boat and if we're en
  553. 21:33counting lots of negative attitudes in
  554. 21:35our social settings we might be
  555. 21:36disincentivized to exhibit a particular
  556. 21:42behavior um looking now more at surveys
  557. 21:45there are a few um validated
  558. 21:46questionnaires based on the tdf most are
  559. 21:49specific to certain behaviors um but
  560. 21:51there is one generic one uh and this is
  561. 21:53just a screen grab of the study in which
  562. 21:56the questionnaire is for anyone who'd
  563. 21:58like to go and look at that after the
  564. 22:00presentation and this is just some
  565. 22:03examples from this questionnaire for the
  566. 22:05domain of Behavioral regulation uh and
  567. 22:08anything in the square brackets is what
  568. 22:11you would plug in for your own research
  569. 22:13question so the action or the behavior
  570. 22:17in a particular context at this
  571. 22:19particular time with the target is
  572. 22:22something that I do automatically and
  573. 22:24you can get people to rate it from a
  574. 22:26scale of 1 to 10 zero being being
  575. 22:28disagree on tend being completely agree
  576. 22:31or other forms of laer scales that you
  577. 22:33might like to use and by asking people
  578. 22:35survey questions in all aspects of the
  579. 22:38tdf um like these in specific to
  580. 22:41behavioral regulation you can get an
  581. 22:43idea of the determinant which are more
  582. 22:45strongly influencing behavior in a
  583. 22:47certain area particularly by using
  584. 22:49sliding scales you can see uh which ones
  585. 22:51have the strongest
  586. 22:55influence uh so now for the final bit of
  587. 22:57the presentation I'd like to look at a
  588. 22:59case study of where we've used the tdf
  589. 23:02and the comb to look at a particular uh
  590. 23:05Behavior Uh and this was really done
  591. 23:08with a lot of colleagues um but largely
  592. 23:10with um Dr Karen Hutchinson um who has
  593. 23:13put a lot of effort into this project
  594. 23:15looking at the implementation evaluation
  595. 23:18of a motor neuron Disease
  596. 23:19multidisiplinary Clinic um to inform
  597. 23:22connected and improve connected care the
  598. 23:25study was conducted um on the Central
  599. 23:28Coast
  600. 23:29um of New South Wales in Australia and
  601. 23:32just to give an overview for those who
  602. 23:34might be inter state it's quite a large
  603. 23:36area um quite a green area and there's
  604. 23:39lots of national park and um settlements
  605. 23:41small like suburbs around the national
  606. 23:44park it has a population of
  607. 23:47approximately U 350,000 people by a
  608. 23:50large area of 1,600 square
  609. 23:53kilm and Sydney is around 80 kilm to the
  610. 23:57South
  611. 24:01and just a little background on motto
  612. 24:02neuron disease as well which is a rare
  613. 24:05Progressive neurogenerative disorder
  614. 24:07with no known cure and it leads to
  615. 24:09significant disability and ultimately
  616. 24:11death on average within three years so
  617. 24:14the key for people who are diagnosed
  618. 24:16with m andd is to get them access to
  619. 24:18Services as quickly as possible so we
  620. 24:20can make sure that their last uh years
  621. 24:22or months are as a good as quality of
  622. 24:26life as we can possibly provide
  623. 24:29This is complicated by the fact that M
  624. 24:31andd progression is highly variable
  625. 24:33between individuals and different types
  626. 24:34so so one person's experience will not
  627. 24:37be the same as someone else regardless
  628. 24:39of if their diagnosis is technically the
  629. 24:41same uh and people with living with M
  630. 24:44andd and their families need access to
  631. 24:46timely and specialized person- centered
  632. 24:48care and support from their diagnosis to
  633. 24:51their end of life uh as I said to make
  634. 24:53sure that this time is as functional and
  635. 24:56as happy as we can possibly make it
  636. 25:00so our study aimed to uh look at a
  637. 25:03multi-disciplinary clinic for people
  638. 25:05with mndd uh in a regional area so in
  639. 25:08the central coast and we aim to
  640. 25:10implement this Clinic to support
  641. 25:13connected care across Health disability
  642. 25:15and aged care sectors and also to
  643. 25:18evaluate the barriers that enable us to
  644. 25:21clinician and participant engagement
  645. 25:22with the clinic and to the
  646. 25:24sustainability of the clinic so the
  647. 25:27behavior in that we were looking at here
  648. 25:29just to bring it back to the tdf is
  649. 25:31engagement with the clinic attending the
  650. 25:33clinic and um you know ongoing
  651. 25:36attendance at the clinic
  652. 25:40effectively this is a slide that um
  653. 25:43Karen Dr Karen Hutcherson has created
  654. 25:45which I think is a wonderful way to look
  655. 25:47at just how complicated the system is
  656. 25:49for people with M andd you can see that
  657. 25:51they're in the center and around them is
  658. 25:53all the different types of care that
  659. 25:55they might have to access on the left
  660. 25:58there's the more tertiary hospital and
  661. 26:00specialist mdts which requires travel
  662. 26:03and accommodation for people living with
  663. 26:05M&D moving more to the center of the
  664. 26:07picture there's local hospitals and
  665. 26:09teams GPS and a neurology team who might
  666. 26:12be working with them uh also Community
  667. 26:14groups support workers nursing staff all
  668. 26:17of Allied Health who can support people
  669. 26:19living with M andd and It's Complicated
  670. 26:22by the fact that depending on the age
  671. 26:23that you're diagnosed with M&D you will
  672. 26:25either be um kind of managed through the
  673. 26:27ndi s or through my aged care which have
  674. 26:30different um kind of system designs and
  675. 26:33different supports that are available to
  676. 26:35people through them so what we really
  677. 26:38wanted to do with this multidisiplinary
  678. 26:40Clinic was bring um Specialist Care
  679. 26:43closer to home and kind of unite all of
  680. 26:46these as many of these different
  681. 26:47Services as we could so people could get
  682. 26:49them in more of a One-Stop
  683. 26:53shop our methods were a qualitative
  684. 26:56study and we conducted semi-structured
  685. 26:58interviews with Clinic staff and also
  686. 27:00its attendees to get a really kind of
  687. 27:03holistic view of the clinic we had six
  688. 27:05Healthcare professionals two social Care
  689. 27:08Professionals four people living with M
  690. 27:10andd and two of their family carers and
  691. 27:14we did a semi- deductive analysis uh
  692. 27:16using the theoretical domains framework
  693. 27:18and the comb
  694. 27:21model and here is just a a snapshot of
  695. 27:24our results we there's quite a number of
  696. 27:26Behavioral determinants that we found
  697. 27:28but I'll just be going over a couple of
  698. 27:30the key ones
  699. 27:32today so a primary barrier that we found
  700. 27:35was a lack of knowledge about Clinic
  701. 27:37structure and and this was because the
  702. 27:40clinic was set up kind of on the fly as
  703. 27:42a it was a really great idea and put
  704. 27:44together by a wonderful neurologist but
  705. 27:47it meant that there wasn't kind of the
  706. 27:49uh structures in place to explain for
  707. 27:52example the organizational map of the
  708. 27:54clinic or uh how the clinic was
  709. 27:56structured in its actual um instance um
  710. 27:59when it occurred so that maps to the tdf
  711. 28:02domain of knowledge and the Combe um of
  712. 28:06psychological capability and so if we
  713. 28:09think back to possible ways that we
  714. 28:10could intervene to overcome this barrier
  715. 28:13we'd look at providing Education and
  716. 28:14Training and resources and ways that
  717. 28:17this could U manifest might be a formal
  718. 28:20induction to the clinic and some Clinic
  719. 28:22process manuals so that people will have
  720. 28:24the resources available to understand
  721. 28:26how the clinic works
  722. 28:30a second barrier that we found was uh
  723. 28:32poor communication networks and quite a
  724. 28:34siloed Health System um particularly
  725. 28:37between the ndis and the age care system
  726. 28:39but also the private and the public
  727. 28:41sector but interestingly an enabler was
  728. 28:45strong clinician understanding of these
  729. 28:46silos and gaps and how they could kind
  730. 28:49of get around them with
  731. 28:51workaround so these things map to first
  732. 28:55in the environmental context and
  733. 28:56resources in relation to the tdf and
  734. 28:59then to people's knowledge um as well
  735. 29:02which if we go then to the comb is
  736. 29:04looking at someone's physical
  737. 29:05opportunity but then also their
  738. 29:07psychological capability so what we
  739. 29:09found here is that people's physical
  740. 29:11opportunity was limited but then they
  741. 29:13were using their psychological
  742. 29:14capability to get around that and to
  743. 29:16make the care work for people with M
  744. 29:19andd however if we wanted to stop using
  745. 29:23so many workarounds and start kind of
  746. 29:25helping people to um
  747. 29:28officially kind of overcome the silos in
  748. 29:31the health system we'd really look at
  749. 29:33environmental restructuring and
  750. 29:35enablement so ways that we could
  751. 29:37specifically do this would be creating a
  752. 29:40formal case conference and Clinic
  753. 29:41communication forms in consultation with
  754. 29:44the M&D team and distributing those
  755. 29:46throughout kind of the healthcare
  756. 29:48Network so everyone understands what's
  757. 29:49going on at the clinic and then
  758. 29:52potentially creating an address book of
  759. 29:54all clinicians in a particular area that
  760. 29:56are assigned to a clinic participant so
  761. 29:58everyone knows who they need to contact
  762. 30:00if they need to contact
  763. 30:04someone a third uh key barrier was the
  764. 30:07cognitive overload of Clinic planning
  765. 30:09and administration in that the clinic
  766. 30:11was kind of happening out privately
  767. 30:13outside of um a lot of people's day jobs
  768. 30:17um but a key enabler was that there was
  769. 30:19a dedicated Administration staff on site
  770. 30:22there was a current Clinic reminder
  771. 30:23system and lots of written reminders and
  772. 30:25checklists so even though there was a
  773. 30:28barrier in people's memory attention and
  774. 30:30decision processes which then maps to
  775. 30:32their psychological capability um the
  776. 30:35environmental context and people's
  777. 30:36physical opportunity was kind of helping
  778. 30:39people overcome that
  779. 30:40barrier so if we wanted to intervene
  780. 30:43further and further help people to
  781. 30:44overcome this barrier we would look at
  782. 30:46environmental restructuring and also
  783. 30:48some Education and Training um some
  784. 30:51specific ways to do this for our Clinic
  785. 30:52might be creating pre and post Clinic
  786. 30:54checklists incorporating current
  787. 30:56reminders and systems into the
  788. 30:58checklists and training Administration
  789. 31:00staff in all of the clinic checklists so
  790. 31:03we just weren't handing them something
  791. 31:04and expecting them to do it without any
  792. 31:08help uh and the finally one final
  793. 31:11barrier that we found was strongly
  794. 31:13defined scopes of practice and a related
  795. 31:16excuse me reluctance to cross into other
  796. 31:18Scopes and that maps to people's
  797. 31:21professional role and identity and their
  798. 31:22reflective motivation and this has come
  799. 31:26up in all studies I've done using the
  800. 31:28tdf in that we're kind of taught how we
  801. 31:31need to act as healthc Care
  802. 31:32Professionals for safety reasons but
  803. 31:34that means that if there's overlap
  804. 31:37between our scope and someone else's
  805. 31:38scope of practice it can sometimes be
  806. 31:41difficult to decide who's going to do
  807. 31:42what uh and people sometimes need a bit
  808. 31:44of a helping hand to either step into
  809. 31:48what they perceive as another scope
  810. 31:50safely um or to kind of step back and
  811. 31:53let another profession do um something
  812. 31:55which is indeed in their scope as well
  813. 31:59so a way that we might kind of overcome
  814. 32:01this barrier would be environmental
  815. 32:03restructuring again but also some
  816. 32:05persuasion uh in a specific way might be
  817. 32:07a team discussion about what is safe
  818. 32:09crossover between clinical scopes with
  819. 32:12scenarios so that people kind of have uh
  820. 32:15an example of how they might behave if
  821. 32:17they kind of felt that they were going
  822. 32:19into someone else's scope of practice
  823. 32:21and they weren't sure whether it was
  824. 32:22appropriate them for them to do so um
  825. 32:25this one was quite key to a
  826. 32:26multi-disciplinary clinic because the
  827. 32:28definition of the clinic is you all work
  828. 32:30together and also at sometimes not all
  829. 32:32professions were available in the clinic
  830. 32:34so people sometimes needed to step up
  831. 32:37safely and within still their Scopes um
  832. 32:39into things that maybe they
  833. 32:41traditionally perceived as someone
  834. 32:42else's
  835. 32:45job so in conclusion implementing any
  836. 32:48intervention into a complex system will
  837. 32:50become with unique barriers and enablers
  838. 32:53um and if we can first map the system
  839. 32:55and understand how things fit together
  840. 32:58um then that can help us get a picture
  841. 33:00of what's going on but a formal and
  842. 33:02Theory grounded assessment of factors
  843. 33:04can compl system mapping to overcome
  844. 33:07barriers and leverage available
  845. 33:08facilitators uh in the most effective
  846. 33:10way possible um to kind of encourage
  847. 33:13behaviors that we'd like to improve
  848. 33:14healthare um for our Target
  849. 33:18populations so I'll open it up for
  850. 33:21discussion now um but I'll just pop this
  851. 33:24acknowledgement slide up to everyone
  852. 33:27who's contribut did um work to the
  853. 33:29presentation that I gave today and
  854. 33:30particularly to the m andd study team um
  855. 33:34and that's my details there
  856. 33:37so I
  857. 33:40will make sure you I can hear everyone
  858. 33:43and then yeah open the floor to any
  859. 33:56questions um
  860. 34:15so um MAA did you have your hand
  861. 34:19up yes thank you for this wonderful
  862. 34:21presentation I've enjoyed it and well
  863. 34:23done through persevering through all the
  864. 34:26troubleshooting with the technology it's
  865. 34:28not easy when you're the one presenting
  866. 34:30so just wanted to acknowledge that uh a
  867. 34:32bit of a practical question towards your
  868. 34:34example that you've um presented on were
  869. 34:38you able to apply any of the recommended
  870. 34:41changes to that clinic or was the
  871. 34:44purpose of the study just to explore
  872. 34:46what the barriers were like I guess I'm
  873. 34:48asking what the impact was of that and a
  874. 34:51second to that is perhaps a Karen
  875. 34:53question is what did she use to draw
  876. 34:55this wonderful map of all the
  877. 34:57interactions if there's a specific
  878. 34:59software or something that we should
  879. 35:00know about please do share thank you
  880. 35:03very
  881. 35:04much thank you uh a great question um
  882. 35:07I'll answer the first bit and then I
  883. 35:08might throw to Karen for the second um
  884. 35:11so Our intention for the study was just
  885. 35:14to map the barriers and enablers uh as
  886. 35:18the clinic was in its first iteration um
  887. 35:20and now it's moving into it second we're
  888. 35:23going to use the findings um to
  889. 35:26hopefully Implement some of those
  890. 35:27strategies
  891. 35:28that I outlined um but we really
  892. 35:30conscious of co-designing it so we
  893. 35:32wanted to take these results to back to
  894. 35:34the team and back to the people living
  895. 35:36with M andd to make sure that it really
  896. 35:38did match what they needed and then pick
  897. 35:40the ones that we were going to implement
  898. 35:42um so watch this space hopefully in
  899. 35:43about a year's time I'll have some more
  900. 35:45findings for you thank you because
  901. 35:47that's a very common issue that um
  902. 35:49having spent a long time within the
  903. 35:51healthcare system is there's a lot of
  904. 35:53great ideas but the implementation of
  905. 35:55something or just the very a lot of of
  906. 35:57them seem to be very basic logical
  907. 35:59things you know like provide a
  908. 36:01organizational map or instructions
  909. 36:03orientation manuals they seem to have
  910. 36:05been missed in that desire to um help
  911. 36:10people absolutely yeah and when we might
  912. 36:13we might find that the simple things
  913. 36:15themselves um they don't work and we
  914. 36:17need to go for something more complex um
  915. 36:19but yeah that'll be the next next part
  916. 36:20of the journey um Karen did you want to
  917. 36:22speak to how you made that wonderful
  918. 36:26map
  919. 36:28yes hi sorry I I I I'm at the clinic at
  920. 36:32the moment so I do need to head off but
  921. 36:33um thank you Georgia that's a great
  922. 36:35presentation and um it was great um to
  923. 36:39uh see all all your amazing slides um
  924. 36:43and yes it was just PowerPoint that I
  925. 36:45used to um do that map
  926. 36:49Miler so um yeah it it it's quite a good
  927. 36:53tool when you actually pull that all
  928. 36:54together um and it just I think
  929. 36:57sometimes visual representations really
  930. 36:59highlight some complexity that maybe is
  931. 37:01hard to you know write
  932. 37:04succinctly um and yeah the the
  933. 37:07complexity um really is hits home with
  934. 37:10that diagram
  935. 37:12so thank you and thanks again I'll have
  936. 37:15to pop off now but I appreciate it thank
  937. 37:18you Georgia Thank
  938. 37:20You Geor I don't know if you've seen
  939. 37:22there's a question in the chat from
  940. 37:25astred thank you so much for your
  941. 37:27presentation really comprehensive wonder
  942. 37:29if you could give a little bit more
  943. 37:29detail about how you underwent the uh
  944. 37:32undertook the
  945. 37:34analysis uh thank
  946. 37:36you
  947. 37:38um
  948. 37:40so okay I'll just repeat the question
  949. 37:43for the people in the room um so are you
  950. 37:46able to offer a bit more detail as to
  951. 37:48how you performed the semi- deductive
  952. 37:50analysis uh yes so what Karen and I did
  953. 37:53was we first coded all of the interview
  954. 37:57transcripts to the elements of the tdf
  955. 38:01but we left a category for other because
  956. 38:04I always find there's a chance that
  957. 38:06something will come up that doesn't fit
  958. 38:07into the framework um and we also wanted
  959. 38:11to do uh we want to look at the effects
  960. 38:15of the clinic which might not have come
  961. 38:16out um via our tdf analysis so the way
  962. 38:20that we probably did it a little bit
  963. 38:22differently in ourselves but the way
  964. 38:24that I do it is I will have one tdf
  965. 38:27component in mind for example knowledge
  966. 38:30and I'll go through all of my qual data
  967. 38:33looking for quotes that map to knowledge
  968. 38:36and then code that using um we just used
  969. 38:38Excel but I've done it before within
  970. 38:40Vivo as well um and then going through
  971. 38:44continually with all of the tdf
  972. 38:46components um and and then Karen and I
  973. 38:48came together to compare what we had
  974. 38:51pulled out for each um component of the
  975. 38:53tdf and aligned ourselves um through
  976. 38:57discussion effectively and then looked
  977. 38:59at what we' coded into that other
  978. 39:01category to see if there's you know
  979. 39:02little bits of the data that we might
  980. 39:04not have captured with the framework
  981. 39:07analysis does that answer your question
  982. 39:09asid or would you like is there any
  983. 39:11follow-up question as
  984. 39:14well I was going to pop it in the chat
  985. 39:16but I might just pop myself off mute
  986. 39:17thank you so much that's really um yes
  987. 39:19that answered my question so just to
  988. 39:21clarify um you the you were open to the
  989. 39:25potential that there were themes or or
  990. 39:26constructs that may have emerged that
  991. 39:29weren't part of the tdf and
  992. 39:31then um and so therefore kind of created
  993. 39:34an additional construct as
  994. 39:36required yeah I think the research
  995. 39:39question that Karen came Karen um
  996. 39:41completed the interviews and then came
  997. 39:43to me for help with the analysis and her
  998. 39:44questions were quite Broad in that she
  999. 39:46wanted to know about the barriers and
  1000. 39:48enablers uh but she was also really
  1001. 39:50interested in the like the unintended
  1002. 39:52consequences of the clinic that that it
  1003. 39:54might have brought about so um we felt
  1004. 39:56that we wanted to make sure we didn't
  1005. 39:58lose that data um and and how that the
  1006. 40:03consequences may have interacted with
  1007. 40:05especially the beliefs about
  1008. 40:06consequences bit of the tdf to really
  1009. 40:09make sure we we pulled that out so I
  1010. 40:11think there is depending on your
  1011. 40:13research question there is some wiggle
  1012. 40:14room you know provided that you do stick
  1013. 40:17to the framework but then yeah taking a
  1014. 40:19a broader look at the data as well to
  1015. 40:21supplement what the framework tells you
  1016. 40:24yeah great thank you so
  1017. 40:26much
  1018. 40:30um Alan do you have a
  1019. 40:32question yeah I do can you can you hear
  1020. 40:35me okay yeah yeah oh fantastic great
  1021. 40:38presentation I I really found it really
  1022. 40:40good and neat how you plan through using
  1023. 40:43the tdf to analyze your data and um
  1024. 40:47guide your survey kind of the questions
  1025. 40:49that you going to ask them and and those
  1026. 40:52steps that I think that makes for really
  1027. 40:54good compelling you know papers and plan
  1028. 40:57in and and all of that I was just going
  1029. 40:59to ask about the next steps because I
  1030. 41:01think Karen hinted that you know this is
  1031. 41:03not funded and it's you know running a
  1032. 41:05lot on people's kind of generosity we do
  1033. 41:09a lot of these kind of things in
  1034. 41:10medicine um because they're a good idea
  1035. 41:12and they seem to work um were you how
  1036. 41:15are you going to use the or are you
  1037. 41:17going to use the tdf for the evaluation
  1038. 41:19part and answering those the kind of
  1039. 41:21questions that funders need like you
  1040. 41:23know cost sustainability effectiveness
  1041. 41:27option all those kind of things or are
  1042. 41:29you going to use a different framework
  1043. 41:30for
  1044. 41:31that um great question so our aim with
  1045. 41:34the tdf was to analyze this data that to
  1046. 41:38take to the funders to show the
  1047. 41:41difficulty um of doing this and the fact
  1048. 41:44that we would need more resources which
  1049. 41:46it has successfully done and um I think
  1050. 41:49it was a really great
  1051. 41:51justification uh but as you suggest we
  1052. 41:54would look at the other implementation
  1053. 41:56factors um in a more formal analysis and
  1054. 41:59would be broadening out um to a probably
  1055. 42:03more of a systems level framework um to
  1056. 42:07uh do that part of the investigation I
  1057. 42:09think what we really wanted to do was
  1058. 42:11look at practical Solutions at the
  1059. 42:12clinician level here to help the clinic
  1060. 42:15run better but also to show what these
  1061. 42:17clinicians are facing as because as you
  1062. 42:19say things that are great ideas in
  1063. 42:21healthcare often face a lot of things uh
  1064. 42:23and it's individuals who persevere
  1065. 42:25through it um so yeah we will be
  1066. 42:28certainly yeah looking at the things
  1067. 42:30that you said in terms of particularly
  1068. 42:31cost um and Effectiveness in in other
  1069. 42:34ways when we do the the full Clinic
  1070. 42:42evaluation
  1071. 42:48yes thank you for everyone comment in
  1072. 42:50the chat is there any other
  1073. 42:53questions at the
  1074. 42:56minute questions in the
  1075. 42:59room no oh
  1076. 43:02Sheamus thanks Georgia thanks for a
  1077. 43:04great presentation um just following up
  1078. 43:06from the last question I'm a sociologist
  1079. 43:09by background although was originally a
  1080. 43:11physiotherapist and worked in healthcare
  1081. 43:13for a while and um yeah I thought it was
  1082. 43:15really interesting the way you suggested
  1083. 43:18you may move on to sort of a systems
  1084. 43:19level analysis um for that next phase or
  1085. 43:23stage and I was just wondering if um you
  1086. 43:26had any comments or thoughts thoughts on
  1087. 43:27how something like the tdf how it might
  1088. 43:30best be used to try and make sure we can
  1089. 43:34capture some of those more systems level
  1090. 43:37or environmental influences upon
  1091. 43:40individual behaviors and the sort of
  1092. 43:42things that people might talk about or
  1093. 43:43raise when interviewed would you have
  1094. 43:45any tips for how some of those more
  1095. 43:48system level um you know or macro Lev
  1096. 43:51factors or miso level factors might be
  1097. 43:54influencing those individual level
  1098. 43:57responses and how we might um capture
  1099. 44:00that yeah great question
  1100. 44:03um I think there's a few ways you could
  1101. 44:05do it um and they probably depend on the
  1102. 44:08resources that you've got available um I
  1103. 44:12do think that the tdf construct of
  1104. 44:15environmental context and resources
  1105. 44:16really does give you the scope to look
  1106. 44:18at what's surrounding a person um and so
  1107. 44:22maybe focusing on that data in
  1108. 44:25particular if you were really interested
  1109. 44:26in the systems level and then applying a
  1110. 44:29systems thinking lens to the information
  1111. 44:32that you got about someone's environment
  1112. 44:34um so that you're not you know doing two
  1113. 44:36analyses and you know that's a lot like
  1114. 44:38resource intensive but putting your
  1115. 44:41focus if you were really interested in
  1116. 44:43systems level one there uh and then I
  1117. 44:45know there's a number of complexity
  1118. 44:48Frameworks um or systems level
  1119. 44:50implementation Frameworks that probably
  1120. 44:53just could be used if you didn't want to
  1121. 44:54use them formally just to guide your
  1122. 44:56thinking about about those factors so
  1123. 44:58you're still operating within the tdf
  1124. 45:00but broadening it out to make sure as
  1125. 45:02you said that you don't scope uh sry you
  1126. 45:05don't miss those things um the more
  1127. 45:07resource intensive one would be to do
  1128. 45:09that full systems map um with like
  1129. 45:12systems Dynamic modeling and and if you
  1130. 45:15had the resources to do that um but yeah
  1131. 45:17it really would I'm not good at maths
  1132. 45:19enough to do that yeah I thought I feel
  1133. 45:22the same um so but yeah I mean that's a
  1134. 45:25good point in um I think the systems
  1135. 45:29Dynamic stuff would be really wonderful
  1136. 45:31to be able to bring to our research but
  1137. 45:34a lot of us aren't trained in that from
  1138. 45:36the beginning and it would be yeah it
  1139. 45:38would be really cool to be able to
  1140. 45:39integrate those two Fields I think um
  1141. 45:42particularly from a complexity
  1142. 45:43perspective because that's what
  1143. 45:45Healthcare is as a complex
  1144. 45:48system great thank
  1145. 45:53you um any other questions so if not we
  1146. 45:56might
  1147. 45:57wrap it up
  1148. 46:01there just making sure I haven't missed
  1149. 46:04anything in the
  1150. 46:10chat oh all right well thank you
  1151. 46:13everyone for coming apologies again for
  1152. 46:15the tech issues um and hopefully we'll
  1153. 46:20have fix them by next time uh and we
  1154. 46:22look forward to seeing you all at um
  1155. 46:24next month's group meeting and we'll be
  1156. 46:26sending out out details of that shortly
  1157. 46:29um and feel free to contact me via email
  1158. 46:31if there's any follow-up questions that
  1159. 46:33I didn't cover today thanks again thanks
  1160. 46:37Georgia

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