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Dr David Sinclair: Can Aging Be Reversed? After 8 Weeks, Cells Appeared 75% Younger In Tests! — Transcript

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0:00This is very uh
0:01It's bad, right? It's hard, yeah.
0:03>> That's what it's like to be old. And for
0:05far too long, we've ignored [music] it
0:07or accepted it as natural. And I reject
0:09the idea that aging, just because it's
0:11natural, is acceptable. Dying at 80 is
0:14not inevitable. Absolutely, that can be
0:16changed. So, if you're skeptical, I am a
0:18Harvard professor who has been studying
0:20aging, longevity, and age reversal for
0:2230 years. And I've seen enough from my
0:24lab showing that we can literally now
0:26reverse the aging process. And it's not
0:28a question of if, it's [music] a
0:28question of when this is going to And
0:30everyone should stick around cuz I'm
0:31going to tell you some of the major
0:32things that people should be doing. They
0:34can lengthen your life by a decade. Hey,
0:36you're not taking that off, Steven.
0:38You've got 10 minutes of that. So, you
0:40can accelerate aging by smoking, getting
0:41an X-ray, ultra-processed foods,
0:43excessive drinking, flying a lot. I fly
0:45all the time. That's probably
0:46accelerating your aging process.
0:50Even going to a rock concert and
0:51blasting your eardrums because your ear
0:54hair cells are getting [music] older
0:55faster. And so, I look at the body like
0:57it's a computer and we can reinstall the
0:59software. And what's [music] interesting
1:01is when you reverse aging, diseases like
1:03Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease go
1:05away [music] or are cured. Because
1:07what's driving a lot of those diseases
1:09is aging. And so, my lab is like Willy
1:11Wonka's chocolate factory. They are
1:13making discoveries that blow me away
1:15every week. And I think we're at a
1:16turning point in human history [music]
1:18where you're probably going to live into
1:19the 22nd century if you do all the right
1:21things. And we're going to dig into all
1:22of those in great detail. But what are
1:24the unintended consequences of such a
1:26world where we all live longer? And
1:28also, do you think it's going to be
1:29possible in the next 50 years for us to
1:31live forever? And then, what's the best
1:33uh treatment you've discovered for hair
1:34loss?
1:35>> This is why I love your podcast, Steven.
1:36You ask the right questions. So, first
1:38of
1:39This is super interesting to me. My team
1:41gave me this report to show me how many
1:42of you that watch this show subscribe.
1:44And some of you have told us, according
1:45to this, that you have unsubscribed from
1:47the channel randomly. So, favor to ask
1:49all of you, please could you check right
1:51now if you've hit the subscribe button.
1:52If you are a regular viewer of this show
1:54and you like what we do here. We're
1:55approaching quite a significant landmark
1:57on this show in terms of a subscriber
1:58number. So, if there was one simple,
2:01free thing that you could do to help us,
2:03my team, everyone here, to keep this
2:04show free, to keep it improving year
2:07over year and week over week, it is just
2:08to hit that subscribe button and to
2:10double-check if you've hit it. Only
2:11thing I'll ever ask of you.
2:12Do we have a deal?
2:14If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll
2:14do. I'll make sure
2:16every single week, every single month,
2:18we fight harder and harder and harder
2:19and harder to bring you the guests and
2:20conversations that you want to hear. I
2:22stayed true to that promise since the
2:23very beginning of the Diary of a CEO,
2:25and I will not let you down. Please help
2:27us. Really appreciate it. Let's get on
2:29with the show.
2:31>> [music]
2:34>> Dr. David Sinclair. I have waited many
2:37years to speak to you. And I've been so
2:40keen to speak to you for so many years
2:41because
2:42so much of the research and the
2:45information I've consumed on the
2:46subjects we're going to talk about today
2:48comes from you, directly from research
2:50you've done, and from theories and ideas
2:52and hypotheses that you formed. I think
2:55the place that this conversation should
2:57start is
2:59is probably with this picture because it
3:01appears to be incredibly formative
3:04in your journey.
3:06Oh, yes.
3:07That is an important picture, true.
3:10This is a picture
3:12of my grandmother and me when I was in
3:14my early 20s, I'm now 56, if you're
3:17wondering.
3:18And uh my grandmother has played a major
3:20role in my life. Uh I'm going to have to
3:22be careful not to get too emotional
3:24because uh she's now passed passed away,
3:26but she's inspired
3:28me to
3:30do the best I can to leave the world a
3:31better place than uh I found it.
3:34And there's this particular book here
3:36called Now We Are Six.
3:39It is Anyone who's read my book uh
3:40Lifespan knows that this book is very
3:44important to me. And I didn't realize
3:45it, of course, when I was a kid that
3:47this was going to change my whole life.
3:51And there's a poem at the back there
3:53that my grandmother, Vera, used to read
3:55me
3:56when I was six.
3:57And it goes like this. When I was one, I
4:01had just begun. When I was two, I was
4:04nearly new. When I was three, I was
4:06hardly me.
4:08When I was four, I was not much more.
4:10When I was five, I was just alive.
4:13But now, I am six.
4:15I'm as clever as clever. So, I think
4:17I'll be six now forever and ever.
4:22I'm getting chills reading this again
4:25and hearing this poem again because
4:27the impact on me was the following, that
4:29subconsciously, my grandmother was
4:31saying, "You you don't want to grow up.
4:33Adults can be evil." She grew up after
4:35World War II.
4:37There was horrendous uh
4:38impact on her and her family in Hungary.
4:42And she thought that a child is innocent
4:45and people shouldn't grow up. But what
4:48actually happened was I realized
4:50why do people grow old?
4:52That's a terrible thing to happen. And
4:54so, I've spent my life
4:56trying to figure out why do we get old?
4:57Why do we grow up? Why do we get frail?
5:00Because I also think that if we can
5:02solve that, understand it,
5:04slow it, even reverse it now,
5:06we we'll have the biggest impact on
5:08human health in history.
5:10Am I right in thinking your grandmother
5:11told you at that young age that she was
5:14going to die, that you were going to
5:15die, that your parents were going to
5:16die? Yes, uh she did tell me that. I
5:20remember it very clearly, actually. I
5:21was on the floor and she was crouching
5:24down and I said, "Vera." I didn't call
5:26her
5:26grandma. She didn't want to be called
5:28grandma. She wanted to be young like a
5:29kid to me. I said, "Vera, will will you
5:31always be here to protect me? Will you
5:33always be around?" She said, "No, I'm
5:34going to die."
5:36I'm like, "What do you mean?" She goes,
5:37"Every everything dies. I'm going to be
5:39gone.
5:40Your parents will be gone. Your pet cat
5:42will be dead pretty soon. And you
5:44yourself will be dead one day."
5:46At age, you know, four or five, that's
5:49that's that's heart-wrenching, right?
5:51We've all gone through this realization
5:52around that age that the world that we
5:56believe in and see will one day all be
5:59gone. That moment, I remember it so
6:01clearly because I thought, "That's not
6:03fair. Why would any species be made or
6:07created that knew that fact? That's
6:10cruel. It's better to either not know
6:13or to not exist. But to know that that's
6:15what's going to happen
6:16is really cruel. And so, I I I vowed
6:20actually legitimately around the age of
6:2218
6:24to get a PhD, to go to the United
6:26States,
6:27and develop a research lab to try and
6:30do something about it. The preservation
6:32of health and life is the most important
6:35thing that we can do as human beings.
6:37We do it with some drugs to treat that
6:39disease and the other disease, cancer,
6:41heart disease, Alzheimer's.
6:43But what's underlying that, what's
6:45really causing about 150 to 200,000
6:47people every day to die,
6:50is the underlying universal process we
6:52call aging.
6:53And for far too long, we've ignored it
6:56or accepted it as natural, therefore
6:58acceptable.
6:59And I I I fundamentally reject the idea
7:02that aging, just because it's natural,
7:05is acceptable. There will be a day when
7:07we look back at today and think how
7:09medieval were our were our medicines.
7:11And how sad it was that we accepted that
7:14we became frail before 100.
7:17If someone has just clicked on this
7:19conversation now, and they deep in their
7:21core
7:23believe that they're probably going to
7:24live to 80 years old, and that we all
7:26are, and that we're never going to be
7:27able to do anything about it cuz that's
7:28just the way that it is. People get old
7:30and then they die. And aging is a fact
7:32of life, as the phrase goes. And you
7:34just have to accept it.
7:37If that's their sort of core belief,
7:39what is the what is the most persuasive
7:41sort of top-line argument to that person
7:43to convince them that in the next 2
7:45hours, when we have this conversation,
7:48we will do a job of both reversing that
7:51belief, really challenging it in some
7:52way, and then also presenting them with
7:54a set of possible solutions. Yeah. All
7:56right. So, first of all, who am I? Um
7:59I'm a Harvard professor. I've been
8:00studying aging, longevity, and age
8:02reversal for 30 years.
8:05The technology now that we have in my
8:06lab that is used every day by my
8:08students literally reverses the age of
8:11tissues in animals, in human tissue that
8:14we grow in the lab. And the first human
8:16trials to test this
8:18are going to be performed
8:20in about a month from now.
8:22And if it works, it'll transform human
8:24history. It means that we're on a path
8:26to finally being able to reset the age
8:28of the human body, not by a year,
8:31not by 10 years, but even more than
8:32that.
8:33And what happens when you do that? What
8:35we're finding in animals that includes
8:37primates, is that we can cure things
8:40that have previously
8:41been impossible, including blindness, by
8:43the way.
8:44And so, if you're listening and you're
8:46skeptical,
8:47I'm not some hack. I am a Harvard
8:50professor who is telling the world and
8:53has written a book about it and every
8:55day spends my life researching with a
8:56team of
8:57the best scientists I can gather around
8:59the world
9:00showing that we can literally now
9:02reverse the aging process and reset how
9:04old the body is. In animals, yes,
9:07but potentially this year showing it can
9:10work in the human body as well. So,
9:13you're doing the first ever trial of
9:15this type in humans to reverse
9:18aging
9:20next month. Yes. So, we've submitted a
9:23form to the
9:25you know, the FDA in the US to get
9:27approval to treat blindness, couple of
9:29types of blindness in people,
9:32um as early, if all goes well, as next
9:34month.
9:35And what what exactly is happening
9:37there? Cuz cuz there's many ways one
9:38might fix
9:40blindness. Mhm. You know?
9:43What is it you're doing to the eyeball
9:46that is a precursor of our potential
9:49ability to reverse aging generally?
9:51Yeah, well, we chose the eye
9:53not because it was going to work well,
9:55but because it's a it's a nice system to
9:57study age reversal. The eye is an
10:00enclosed space and so it's much safer
10:02than trying to initially reverse the age
10:04of the whole body. Now, in mice we
10:05reverse the age of the whole body
10:07and the effect is longevity,
10:09rejuvenation, the skin gets better.
10:11All parts of the animal get get
10:13healthier and younger.
10:14But in humans you you don't want to go
10:16straight to rejuvenation uh because in
10:18case something goes wrong, it could set
10:20us way back.
10:22And we have to make sure we don't have
10:23any safety mishaps. So, we're being a
10:26little cautious in humans. In mice it's
10:28a little different.
10:30So, in the human eye Just for those that
10:32are watching the video, there is a an
10:33eye on the table. Well, a plastic eye.
10:35It's a it's a larger version of an eye,
10:37but yes, uh Steven's right.
10:39What we're doing we're going to look at
10:40the back of the eye, which is your
10:41retina.
10:43And that's where the light hits.
10:45And at that point there are a lot of
10:47nerves that coalesce into the optic
10:50nerve that runs to the brain
10:53by just a few millimeters. So, the brain
10:55is here. The eye is actually part of the
10:57brain.
10:58A lot of people don't know that. You can
10:59touch your brain if you touch your eye.
11:01Um so, the optic nerve gets old and what
11:03we've discovered if it gets damaged or
11:04gets old, it's not working. But the
11:07nerves for most the most part, if you're
11:09old, are still there.
11:10They just forget how to work. And that's
11:13aging. And later everyone should stick
11:16around cuz I'm going to tell you
11:18why it is we get old and how it is we
11:20reverse it. But but for this this model
11:22what we're doing is we're introducing a
11:25set of three genes into
11:28this optic nerve at the back of the eye
11:31and turning them on for 6 to 8 weeks.
11:36And those three genes are what we now
11:38know reset safely
11:40apparently safely
11:42reset the age of cells including nerves
11:46by about 75% and then stop. They don't
11:48go more than that, which is good. We
11:50don't want to go back to zero.
11:52I don't think anyone wants to go back to
11:54high school.
11:55But this is the way it works. And we
11:57chose the optic nerve because it's a
11:59safe and close system, not because it
12:00should work better in optic nerves. In
12:02fact, we've now done it in mice in my
12:04lab for the brain. Uh we're doing
12:07hearing. We've done skin. Uh we did
12:09multiple sclerosis.
12:11Uh we're now doing motor neuron disease
12:12and seeing great effects. So, it's
12:15important to know I'm not an eye
12:16specialist. I didn't choose the eye cuz
12:17I love the eye. I chose it because
12:20that's a good place to start for age
12:21reversal in humans this year.
12:23You mentioned a second ago you've been
12:25able to extend the life of mice in your
12:28laboratory.
12:29How and by how much? Is it the same
12:31process and by how much?
12:33Right. Well, the the study that that I
12:35was referring to was done using our
12:37technology in an independent lab, which
12:40is you might argue even better than
12:42having done it in my lab. Instead of
12:44putting the three reversal genes into
12:46the eye, they injected into the vein of
12:48the mouse, the old mice.
12:50Uh and turned it on in these really old
12:52mice. These mice would be the equivalent
12:53of
12:55about 80 to 85 years. So, they're really
12:57old mice. They're really frail.
12:59And just any any extension in their
13:01lifespan and health would be bet would
13:03be a great thing. And they got an
13:04additional 100% lifespan extension.
13:07Additional.
13:08So,
13:09That would be like an 80-year-old living
13:11to 160. Well, the remaining life of an
13:1380-year-old isn't long.
13:15Oh, okay.
13:16>> Right. So, let's let's say if you're
13:17give it to a 70-year-old on average they
13:19had have another 10 years to go.
13:22Give them 20 years. So, it's that
13:23calculation. Um but that was not an
13:25optimized study. They just did a Hail
13:27Mary injection, turn it on, see what
13:29would happen. And I I heard when we did
13:31a bit of a research call you say the
13:34world doesn't know how close we are.
13:37The world doesn't know how close we are
13:38to what?
13:40To being able to safely reverse the age
13:42of the human body.
13:45How can you be so sure?
13:46I'm not sure.
13:48But I'm confident that
13:50the science is solid.
13:52All right. The the the biology of aging
13:55is is understood, I believe, in concept.
13:59My theory, called the information theory
14:01of aging, has
14:03so far been not disproven, which is
14:06important for a scientist.
14:08And that has allowed us
14:11to succeed
14:13really for the first time to safely
14:15reverse aging. And I now believe, and
14:17though I didn't 10 years ago, I now
14:18believe in my lifetime I'm going to see
14:22medicines on the market that reset the
14:24age or at least reverse
14:26in a large part uh the age of the body
14:29and that that
14:30initially won't be to make us just look
14:32better and feel better, although that's
14:35what a lot of us want. It's going to be
14:37used to cure
14:39certainly prevent, but definitely cure
14:40diseases
14:42that are currently incurable. So, we're
14:44I think we're at a turning point
14:46I dare I say in human history. It's it's
14:48not a question of if, it's a question of
14:50when this is going to happen.
14:51I want to get into your theory of aging,
14:53which we talked about there. Um but you
14:55did have a prediction before I get to
14:56there about
14:59how you think we'll be potentially
15:00taking a pill
15:02in 10 years' time
15:05every couple of weeks that will make us
15:06younger. Can you explain to me that
15:07prediction? What is what is the
15:08prediction? I I do believe that
15:11I and you're about 20-something years
15:14younger than me. You're going to see
15:15this for sure that there will be a pill.
15:17So, you might say, "Well, my critics
15:19might say, 'Well, David, that's
15:20exaggerating, right?
15:22You're still trying to get this gene
15:24these genes to work. How's it going to
15:25be a pill?'
15:26But this is where my lab comes in. My
15:28lab is like Willy Wonka's chocolate
15:30factory. If you visit, it's magical and
15:33the students that I teach and the
15:34trainees who are sometimes in their 30s
15:37and even 40s who are you know, brilliant
15:39scientists,
15:40uh there's about 25 of us.
15:42They are making discoveries that blow me
15:45away every week. It's not a pill cuz you
15:47can't give a mouse a pill. They won't
15:49chew it. But we give them a a liquid
15:51down their throat. It's a drink.
15:53And within 4 weeks we can rejuvenate
15:55them.
15:56Not with this this these genes anymore
15:58that we're giving humans. That's the old
16:00older technology.
16:01The new technology is
16:03something you can swallow
16:06in a mouse and rejuvenate them in 4
16:07weeks. It's normal for my students to
16:09say, "Oh yeah, we just rejuvenated the
16:12ear. We just rejuvenated the skin. Uh we
16:15just cured ALS, motor neuron disease in
16:18these animals." By the way, Steven, this
16:20isn't just each disease doesn't get a
16:22different medicine. Each disease doesn't
16:25get a different set of genes. It's the
16:27same set of genes, the same molecules
16:30that treat cure multiple sclerosis as
16:32the same one that cures blindness in
16:34mice.
16:36So, let that sink in. The same drug
16:39that we're using in the eye will be used
16:41to treat other diseases in the body,
16:43even liver disease. So, if if your
16:45predictions are correct and your
16:46timeline is correct,
16:49what does this mean for the way that I
16:51should be living my life right now? Most
16:54people look at their parents and their
16:56grandparents and think, "That's what my
16:57life will be like. I'm going to be frail
16:59in my 80s." That's not true for us. I
17:02like the Wright brothers analogy. It'd
17:04be like in 1900 saying we're always
17:06going to travel as fast as a horse.
17:08That's not true, right? The 20th century
17:11saw that we could go
17:13tens of thousands of kilometers. They
17:14went to the moon, right?
17:16That's what our generation is when it
17:18comes to biology and aging.
17:21Previous generations are no guide to
17:23what our lifespan is going to be like.
17:24You're going to potentially live to the
17:2622nd century. If you do all the right
17:28things, technology keeps increasing,
17:30right? What kind of technologies will we
17:32have in 50 years?
17:33You'll be around in 50 years.
17:35I hope so.
17:36>> You're a healthy guy. I know you are.
17:37All right. So, in 50 years, what kind of
17:39things will you be able to do? Gosh.
17:42This is what most people forget is that
17:44technology isn't static. When you're
17:47old, you will not be using today's
17:48technology. You'll be using technology
17:51of 2070, 2080.
17:53Right? Mhm. And then you'll be able to
17:55live into the 22nd century and take
17:57advantage of those technologies.
17:59That's why people talk about the
18:00singularity. The singularity is this
18:02idea that if you can make it to a
18:04certain point in human history,
18:06you won't have to age anymore.
18:09And that that's in the future, right?
18:10But first steps first. Let's show that
18:12we can get this to cure blindness
18:14and then get to the point where
18:17every year that we get 1 year older,
18:19we can get 1 year younger. When that
18:21happens, it's a very interesting world.
18:23All right? You don't have to age
18:25anymore.
18:26That is a future. I don't know when
18:27we're going to get there.
18:29But if you don't live 10 to 20 years
18:31longer than your parents, something's
18:33wrong.
18:34On that point of the singularity, so
18:35this is a particular moment in time
18:38where we're going to be able to make
18:39aging or age reversal, I guess, a
18:41choice, right? So, that I guess the
18:44thinking or the theory is that if you
18:45can just make sure you survive up until
18:47this particular date, then you have the
18:50choice to live forever. Is that how is
18:52that like the the theory? Well, that's
18:53what they say, yes. Uh there are a lot
18:55of proponents of that. But that that's
18:57an idea. Isn't it logically true then?
18:59It's like logically It's an Yeah, it's
19:00an extension of what I I'm talking
19:02about. Um but I don't know when that's
19:04going to be. It's I think Ray Kurzweil
19:06said it's coming soon. Did he have a
19:09prediction? It was in the 2040s
19:11sometime. So, Ray Kurzweil is a famous
19:12futurist that seems to predict the
19:13future really well um across multiple uh
19:16disciplines. So, he said 2040.
19:19Yeah, that's my recollection. It's
19:20around there. Do you believe that?
19:23Cuz I'm going to hang on till 2040. I'm
19:25skeptical. I won't leave the house. I
19:26mean Ray is a smart guy, right? He
19:28predicted AI and all that's happening.
19:31So, it's it's it's dangerous to bet
19:32against Ray's predictions.
19:35I I remain skeptical, you know, as one
19:37of the leaders in the field. I think we
19:38have a lot still to do.
19:40That said, if this trial works this
19:42year,
19:43we will be in new territory. We will be
19:45on a path to age reversal in the whole
19:47body. It's going to happen. And you
19:49know, right now it's now 2026 we're
19:52talking.
19:542040 is a number of years away. It could
19:56be that we
19:57truly are able to multiply reset the age
20:00of the body.
20:01That's that's another thing that that's
20:02often missed.
20:04We can
20:05reverse the age of the eye not just
20:07once, but seemingly as many times as we
20:09want. In mice we've done it at least
20:12twice. We didn't do it a third time
20:14because the mice actually just got old
20:16and they died, but they died with
20:17perfect eyesight.
20:19But the point is that we we don't
20:21believe it's a one-shot wonder. You can
20:23keep reversing aging and then you age
20:25out and then you reverse it again and
20:27you just keep going. And if that's true,
20:29then it is possible that we will live
20:31dramatically longer.
20:33I don't yet see any technology in the
20:35near horizon that will make us live
20:36forever,
20:38but I do see that we'll have a radical
20:40change in how we treat diseases
20:42and how long we can live. So let's talk
20:44about what aging actually is and can you
20:46explain this to me like I'm a total
20:47idiot?
20:48Because that will help me. Thank you.
20:50It's difficult cuz you're not a total
20:51idiot, but this is my theory is that
20:54aging is not just wearing out. It's not
20:57just that your body becomes old and
21:00dysfunctional
21:01and you get pain, you get inflammation
21:03and you die from a disease.
21:05I look at the body like it's a a
21:07computer.
21:08It's software
21:10and we can reinstall the software.
21:13In my lab we believe we've found a way
21:15to do that and we see the evidence of
21:17that. So the body is
21:19a carrier of information from our
21:21parents
21:23and what happened in the womb.
21:24That information
21:26is intact, keeps our body functioning
21:29almost perfectly in our teenage years,
21:3220. You're in your early 30s, you're
21:34starting to lose that information and so
21:38your body's not functioning perfectly
21:39anymore. Gray hairs.
21:41You've got some gray. Exactly, that's a
21:43a good example of cells that lose their
21:45identity and stop making melanin, the
21:48black pigment.
21:49But it's going to get worse, I promise
21:51you unless you know, unless we we hurry
21:53up.
21:54And this information uh gets lost, it
21:56gets corrupted. But the beautiful thing
21:58is we believe we found a backup copy of
22:00that information from youth that we can
22:02reinstall into cells, into tissues, into
22:05the entire body of a mouse and hopefully
22:08a human.
22:09That backup copy is in every old person
22:12I believe and it can be accessed. So
22:14when I see an old person walking down
22:16the street now, I don't think oh that
22:17person's just worn out, frail, going to
22:19die.
22:20I just think that's someone that needs a
22:21reset.
22:22And inside that person is a young person
22:24waiting to come out again.
22:27That's a totally different way to think
22:28about old age.
22:30And in the future people will have a
22:32choice to be rejuvenated or not.
22:35Where is that backup copy that I need?
22:38Well, we're working on that and if I if
22:41I told you my student would kill me.
22:44But we believe we found
22:46largely where that information is
22:49stored. It's a highly new biology. And
22:52it's currently a secret. It's a secret.
22:54Okay, so you you you lead the way. Tell
22:56me what we should we should talk about
22:57next as it relates to aging. Let's talk
22:59about information, right? We live in the
23:00information age and biology is becoming
23:03part of that information age.
23:05And it started with the uh elucidation
23:09of the structure of DNA.
23:11Okay. And so I have a I have a model of
23:12DNA here. So for listeners who are not
23:14watching,
23:15this is a a little plastic double helix.
23:18My friend uh Jim Watson uh died recently
23:21uh last month who he and his colleague
23:24discovered that DNA, the information of
23:26life that we get from our parents is a
23:29chemical that's about 6 ft long in every
23:31cell.
23:32And uh this model here shows that DNA is
23:34a ladder and the steps on the ladder are
23:37the information of the DNA.
23:39Okay. Yeah?
23:41And you can pull this apart so that each
23:43step becomes 50 50% ripped apart.
23:47So that should come apart, right? So I
23:48ripped a rung of the ladder apart.
23:51And that is called a base on the DNA and
23:53it always matches with its corresponding
23:56chemical.
23:57So this
23:59shorthand we'd call an A, it always
24:01matches with a T. So an AT becomes a
24:03rung on the ladder.
24:05And down here different color here, I'm
24:07looking at a red and a green step. Rip
24:09it apart.
24:11This is a G and a C letter. Gs and Cs
24:13come together. And actually when if you
24:15if I rip this ladder into halves and
24:18each step becomes half a ladder,
24:20now you can see that you can copy DNA
24:22because
24:23the A has to match with the T rung and
24:26the G has to match with the C. So that's
24:28basic DNA. That's how the information is
24:30transferred
24:31from cell to cell, from mother to
24:34daughter, our parents to offspring.
24:37There are about 20,000 genes, about
24:3915,000 are turned on,
24:41but a different set
24:43gets turned on in large part
24:45to make a nerve cell compared to a liver
24:47cell and a skin cell.
24:49That's gene expression.
24:52And what controls that gene expression
24:54is what's called not not the genome,
24:56which is what's in front of me here on
24:58the DNA molecule.
24:59It's the epigenome.
25:02The epigenome is the information we get
25:05transferred from cell to cell, from
25:06parent to offspring
25:08that's not in this molecule.
25:11So where's this epigenetic information?
25:14Well, it controls which genes are
25:16switched on and off
25:17and a major regulator of that process
25:21is the modification of these steps on
25:24the DNA. These chemicals, the C
25:27particularly the C which I'm showing you
25:30here in this red part of the the
25:32molecule,
25:33the C gets a little chemical added to it
25:35called a methyl.
25:37And a methyl is just if you remember
25:39from chemistry high school,
25:41uh it's a carbon
25:43with three hydrogens.
25:44It's very simple molecule. It gets stuck
25:46on that piece
25:48of the the DNA molecule. That's called
25:50DNA methylation and that will help
25:52determine that pattern of DNA
25:54methylation determines whether this
25:57particular gene will be switched on, say
26:00to make an optic nerve,
26:01or switched off so that
26:03it's becomes a liver cell. And that
26:05happens as we're in the womb and we
26:07become an embryo.
26:09>> [snorts]
26:09>> And that's the epigenome. These
26:11chemicals that turn genes on and off is
26:13the epigenome.
26:14And the information theory of aging
26:18states
26:19that the information that's in a cell
26:23which includes the DNA, but actually
26:25more importantly for aging
26:27is the control systems, the epigenome.
26:30That is pristine when we're young, but
26:32as we get older we lose that epigenetic
26:35information.
26:36The ability to
26:38tell a cell to be a nerve cell versus a
26:40liver cell versus a skin cell, it starts
26:42to get erased. So it when we look at a
26:44mouse or or an old tissue, if I took
26:47maybe not your skin, but but my skin,
26:49my skin cells are no longer as skin-like
26:52as they once were. They started to lose
26:56their identity. They're starting
26:58actually to to look more like nerve
26:59cells and nerve cells starting to look
27:01more like skin cells
27:02because the genes that were once turned
27:05on correctly in my young cells,
27:07that that control system, these
27:09chemicals on the DNA molecule, the
27:11methyls, are getting erased. So aging is
27:14an identity crisis of the cells.
27:15>> It absolutely is. Well put. The cells
27:18forget
27:19what their job is.
27:21Yes. The genes are still there in large
27:24part. 99.999% of the genes are still
27:27there. The molecule's intact.
27:29But the control systems
27:31the label thing you mentioned.
27:33>> to tell the cell that this gene needs to
27:36be on, but this one should always stay
27:37off, that gets erased over time. Why?
27:40Uh we we did partially figure that out.
27:43And how do you know?
27:45Well, uh even better.
27:47This is this is why I love your podcast,
27:49Steven. You ask the right questions.
27:52These there are enzymes that remove
27:54these methyl groups
27:56um and put them back on. So the cells
27:58controlling these things, they shouldn't
27:59change, but they do.
28:01And one of the things that messes the
28:03system up
28:04is
28:05major catastrophe in a cell. And when
28:08the cell panics,
28:11it removes these structures to try and
28:13adapt to the stress. The label. The
28:15label comes off
28:17in a desperate attempt to survive.
28:20But then the cell doesn't fully
28:22revert back to the original state. Some
28:24of these chemicals and some of the
28:25proteins that bind to the DNA, which is
28:27also important for this epigenome, they
28:30don't all go back to where they started.
28:32I've used the analogy
28:34that it's like a ping pong or a tennis
28:36match where the proteins that control
28:39the genes,
28:40they they get relocalized to where the
28:42emergency is.
28:44And an emergency want the one that we
28:45think is most dangerous
28:47and a large cause of cause of aging is a
28:50broken chromosome. If you have a broken
28:52chromosome, if you don't fix that,
28:54you're either going to become a cancer
28:55cell or you're going to die. It's not
28:57good. Um and so cells panic.
28:59And in that panic of moving proteins
29:01away and turning on these stress
29:03response genes,
29:04uh that's great in the short term. The
29:06cell might survive,
29:08but they don't fully reset. Those
29:09proteins don't all go back to where they
29:11once were,
29:12say 10 minutes ago when the stress
29:14needed to be the disaster happened.
29:17And if you do that time and time again
29:19and every one of your cells has at least
29:21chromosome every day.
29:23That's 20 trillion of these events every
29:25day in your body.
29:27Over time,
29:28tick tick tick,
29:30you get the aging process, we believe.
29:34So I got I guess I've got two questions.
29:36I guess the first question, if I was
29:37thinking about the sequence of asking
29:38these questions, is
29:41what is increasing that stress on my
29:44cells, therefore what is increasing
29:46aging? And also like why didn't
29:48evolution just come up with a solution
29:50for this that stopped me aging then?
29:52Like evolution is very smart. Couldn't
29:53it just fix this? Well, before I get
29:55into that, one of the
29:57the reasons we know that this works, cuz
29:58you asked me, "How do we know that's
29:59true?"
30:00is that
30:02we created this this catastrophe in
30:04animals. We we took mice and we
30:07we we broke their chromosomes in a way
30:09that didn't cause cancer [clears throat]
30:10or mutations.
30:12If we're right,
30:14what should happen to these mice? They
30:15get old fast.
30:16>> They get old fast. Gray hair. And they
30:18did.
30:19We call them the ICE mice. I stands for
30:21inducible changes to the epigenome.
30:24And we're able to induce these changes.
30:27And we took bets in the lab. This was
30:29going back now 12 years ago.
30:31Uh
30:32I I bet that we would get aging. Okay,
30:34but I was the only one in the lab that
30:36thought that would happen. We had a lot
30:38of bets that the mice would die.
30:40A lot of bets that the mice would get
30:42cancer. And a few said nothing would
30:44happen.
30:45But we got aging. In fact, I was I was
30:47in Australia, where where I'm from, as
30:49you know, and I got a picture on my old
30:52old-style iPhone. And uh it was a
30:54picture of an old mouse.
30:56Uh well, it was a sick-looking mouse.
30:57And the And the the text was
31:00"Problem, we have a sick mouse." And I
31:01wrote back, "That's not a sick mouse.
31:03That's an old mouse." And that was the
31:04first time I realized that we'd had
31:07evidence that our theory, the
31:09information theory of aging, is correct.
31:12So, what we did actually, and this might
31:13satisfy your and your listeners'
31:15curiosity,
31:17we generated a mouse from scratch
31:19using stem cells.
31:21And so, we start with a a mouse stem
31:23cell that we grow in the lab in the
31:24dish.
31:25And we change the genetics of that stem
31:27cell
31:28so that we could
31:30feed it a drug,
31:32uh tamoxifen, which is used uh in in
31:35chemotherapy. And that drug turned on
31:39a gene from a slime mold, something you
31:41might find in the forest,
31:43that breaks DNA of the mouse, but does
31:46it in a way that doesn't cause cancer or
31:48mutations. Just cuts it. And then the
31:50cells put it back together. So, we could
31:51take a mouse and for 3 weeks we
31:56turned on the slime mold-cutting
31:57protein.
31:59And nothing happened to the mouse at the
32:00time. It's like a You don't feel an
32:02X-ray. You don't feel
32:05different when you fly except for maybe
32:06jet lag and dehydration. But you don't
32:08get old suddenly. Same with the mice.
32:10They were normal. They felt fine.
32:13And that's why at first people said,
32:14"Oh, nothing's going to happen to these
32:15mice." After 3 weeks, they were fine.
32:18But we set in motion a cascade of
32:20accelerated aging events that
32:23about 10 months later, they were super
32:25gray and super old and had all the
32:28diseases of aging
32:2950% faster than their twins that we
32:31didn't treat. And you've got photos of
32:33those we could show. Yeah. Yeah, let's
32:35show those. So, if I was to do the
32:37experiment in you,
32:38I might have to engineer it a clone of
32:40you,
32:41but I could do that. Uh you know, I'm
32:43not saying that it's ethically right.
32:45But But theoretically, we could make a
32:46clone of you, put in that slime mold
32:48gene, turn it on,
32:50and your clone would be 50% older than
32:53you are.
32:54Can you translate this into
32:57the equivocal for a human?
32:59That particular study that you did. So,
33:01it would be like in me doing what? And
33:04then me getting old fast. Yeah. Uh well,
33:06we're exposed to to things that cause
33:08DNA breaks all the time. They happen
33:10naturally as the cells try to copy their
33:12DNA, but you can accelerate that by
33:13getting an X-ray, a CT scan,
33:16flying a lot, and cosmic rays banging
33:18into your DNA and
33:19>> I fly all the time. Yeah, it's a lot
33:21>> of CT scans and X-rays. Yeah. Uh and and
33:25though it's imperceptible, I believe
33:27that that's probably accelerating your
33:28aging process. What's flying doing to my
33:31So, again, you talked about flying being
33:32equivocal to what you did to the mouse.
33:34In what way?
33:35Well, every time you break your
33:37chromosome, you're rearranging your
33:39epigenome in a catastrophic way that
33:42doesn't fully reset. And your cell will
33:43lose its identity faster.
33:46I also believe um and we have some
33:47evidence that even going to a rock
33:49concert and and have blasting your
33:51eardrums
33:52is such a stress on those cells in your
33:54ear that the reason that you become deaf
33:56earlier is because your ear hair cells
33:59are getting older faster.
34:01You don't want to break the DNA. You
34:03don't want to cause catastrophe to your
34:05fragile cells in your body
34:07because the recovery isn't complete and
34:09aging ensues.
34:11So, with this theory in mind, what are
34:13the day-to-day things that we're all
34:15doing
34:16that are accelerating our age? Like cuz
34:17I think what's really interesting is I
34:19looked at my brother, Jason. He's a year
34:21older than me. He has three kids that
34:24are like under the age of seven or eight
34:26now.
34:27And
34:28this Christmas time, cuz it's just been
34:29Christmas, I looked at his hair to see
34:31how many gray hairs he had versus me.
34:33And I thought, "Okay, he has
34:34considerably more."
34:36Uh he's a year older than me. And I was
34:37thinking, that's like a a proxy of aging
34:41to some degree.
34:42What is it he's potentially done on a
34:44day-to-day basis? I know you don't know
34:46him, so this is why it's not not an
34:47offensive uh answer to give. What is it
34:49that someone who is
34:52generally sort of genetically very
34:53similar, but is making different
34:54lifestyle choices, is doing
34:57to accelerate that process of wrinkles
34:58or gray hairs or
35:00Well, here's here's the good news. That
35:02you can have a big impact on your rate
35:04of aging by changing your lifestyle.
35:06It turns out your DNA is not your
35:07destiny. It's the epigenome. So, that
35:10how you live your life is really 80 to
35:1290% of your rate of aging.
35:15That's good. It's in your hands. But it
35:16also means that some people mess up
35:18their lives. There are actually twin
35:19studies from uh mostly from Denmark.
35:22Identical twins. One that goes and
35:24smokes and gets obese
35:27and uh goes in the sun.
35:29And they are much older-looking than
35:31their identical twin.
35:33Essentially proving that the DNA is not
35:35the reason you age.
35:37First of all, there going to be people
35:38in the audience uh who are listening or
35:40watching who have gray hair saying,
35:42"Damn it, I'm not old." And that's true.
35:44I mean, nobody died of gray hair, right?
35:46And
35:47sometimes genetically you can get gray
35:49old uh but not be physically old.
35:52What is true that's often not
35:54comfortable is how old you look is a
35:56very good representation of how old you
35:58are in your organs as well.
36:00So, the doing the right thing. So, what
36:01are those things? Let's Let's tick off
36:03some of the major things that people
36:04should be doing.
36:06And they can have a big impact. They can
36:07lengthen their life by a decade just by
36:09doing some of the major things.
36:11So, we know that on average people can
36:12live 14 years longer. This is based on a
36:14study that came out from Harvard. A
36:16long-term study of the lifespan of World
36:18War II veterans.
36:20If you avoid smoking, cigarette smoking,
36:23or really any type of smoke in your
36:24lungs. Smoking breaks your DNA. It's
36:26going to accelerate aging in your lungs,
36:28your whole body.
36:29Avoid excessive drinking. We now know
36:31that even more than one glass a day of
36:34alcohol is bad. I've given up alcohol
36:36for the most part for that reason.
36:38Eat well.
36:40So, you want to eat healthy food. We've
36:41got some healthy food here we're going
36:43to talk about.
36:44Um so, make sure you you don't uh
36:47overeat or eat ultra-processed foods.
36:50And the big one, one of the best things
36:51you can do besides all of that, is
36:54exercise. Okay, and exercise covers a
36:56lot of things, so we can drill into that
36:57as well.
36:59But the fifth one is interesting. It may
37:01be surprising,
37:02but actually good news for you. Have a
37:04reliable partner. I think you're going
37:06to say be a podcaster. I was going to
37:07Okay. Uh [laughter] no, that probably
37:09accelerates your age. Yes, so um if you
37:11don't have a reliable partner,
37:13have a pet.
37:14Because the human bond is something that
37:17is shown to slow aging and associates
37:21with people who live longer than others
37:23that are lonely.
37:25Interesting. We're going to dig into all
37:26of those in great detail. Specifically
37:28very interested in in exercise, diet,
37:31lifestyle, fasting. I know it's a big
37:32subject you speak about, which I'm very
37:33very interested in. And actually, as I
37:35was doing the research for this
37:35conversation,
37:37again, my the way that I'm going to
37:39approach nutrition has shifted because
37:41of some of the things I discovered
37:42there.
37:43I want to just tick off on this
37:44evolution point. Right. Let's come back
37:46to that. Yeah, I just want to get clear
37:48Yeah, like why didn't evolution fix it
37:51for me? Because they talk about survival
37:52of the fittest and that the very fact
37:54that I'm here is because my my ancestors
37:56were good at survival. But listen, my
37:57ancestors all died at like 30, 40, 50,
37:5960, 70, 80 years old. That's not very
38:01good. Why Why didn't they just live
38:03longer?
38:04>> Well, that's why. You just said the
38:05answer yourself. Because your ancestors
38:08didn't live beyond 40 or 50. Even less.
38:11But most men
38:13uh in prehistoric times would die from
38:16>> [clears throat]
38:16>> famine, disease, and actually a lot of
38:18them from war. So, most people didn't
38:21make it to 80. Some people did, but very
38:23very rarely.
38:25So, the the forces of natural selection
38:27were on
38:29early survival
38:30and fast breeding.
38:32Let's put it this way. If there was
38:33someone
38:34who was born with a mutation that
38:36allowed them to live a lot longer, to
38:3890,
38:39in a prehistoric world, that's useless.
38:42Because you're probably going to die at
38:4330 or 40 anyway. And so, you have
38:45children.
38:45>> [clears throat]
38:46>> So, what you want to do is find genes
38:47that allow you to become reproductively
38:49successful
38:51early on in life.
38:53Um and make sure your children survive.
38:55And so, we we have children
38:57pretty early, but humans for for various
38:59reasons have a long developmental period
39:02including education.
39:03So, we don't we don't develop very
39:05rapidly, right? We don't wake up and we
39:07can walk and run like a lot of other
39:08species and mammals.
39:10>> [gasps]
39:10>> But we don't live a long time because
39:12there was
39:13in the environment that we evolved, the
39:15Serengeti plain is pretty much agreed
39:17upon as that's one of the places we
39:19evolved.
39:20Certainly uh Eastern Africa.
39:22That was extremely difficult and
39:24dangerous place to live.
39:26You could get eaten by an animal.
39:29And if you didn't get eaten by an
39:30animal, you got killed by the
39:31neighboring tribe.
39:32That's super dangerous, right? And then
39:34so, we we evolved to live
39:37really at optimal to about 30,
39:41but not much more than that. So, after
39:4330,
39:44as you might be experiencing with with
39:46your body,
39:47we're at the forces of entropy. So, the
39:50body starts to decay, the information
39:53starts to get lost in the body.
39:56But the the good news is that if you
39:58take away predation and death from a
40:01species,
40:02it evolves longer lifespans. Now, it
40:04makes evolutionary sense
40:06to have genes that allow you to put more
40:09effort into building a strong body and
40:11slowing down the aging process and
40:14preventing DNA breaks, chromosomal
40:16breaks.
40:17We know that this is true because if you
40:18put species
40:20say on an island where there are no
40:22predators,
40:23what happens to their longevity?
40:26They get longer lived naturally. It
40:28takes 20, 30 generations, but only when
40:32there's no predation, when you're not
40:34under a lot of stress
40:36to breed quickly, do you get longer
40:39lifespans evolving. Given that humans
40:41don't have predators anymore, we are
40:43slowly evolving
40:46longer lifespans. But it's very slow,
40:48and it's not going to happen fast enough
40:50for you and me. And do the organisms
40:52that do live really, really long have
40:55a small amount of predators in nature?
40:57Absolutely.
40:58Absolutely. Think about them.
41:01The bristlecone pine. What's that? It's
41:03the longest lived tree in the world. It
41:05can live many thousands of years.
41:08Are you jealous?
41:10Not jealous, no.
41:12>> [laughter]
41:12>> No, they live a tough life. Some of
41:15those trees have been around since the
41:16pyramids. Wow. The reason they live can
41:19live for so long and evolve to live so
41:20long is that things don't eat them. They
41:22are totally poisonous. You don't want to
41:24eat a bristlecone pine.
41:26The same for a whale, right? The bowhead
41:27whale, some of these very large animals,
41:29no predators. So, they've evolved a
41:32strategy of breeding slowly, but
41:34building very
41:36powerful systems to stop epigenetic
41:39changes. Their epigenetic control
41:41systems are stable. They don't get
41:43cancer, and they they don't lose they
41:46don't have this identity crisis until
41:48hundreds of years.
41:50We know that. People study the cells of
41:52whales in the dish, and those cells
41:54don't lose their identity very quickly
41:56even when you break their DNA.
41:58So, I I I guess the place also to to go
42:01next is talking about disease generally
42:04and what disease
42:06is.
42:07So, are these diseases a function of
42:08aging? Does this idea of reversing aging
42:11even matter if cancer's going to take
42:12most of us out anyway at some point?
42:15Is there a link between aging and
42:17disease? This might be the most
42:18important point that I make today.
42:22When you reverse aging, diseases of
42:24aging go away or are cured.
42:27And in our in my lab, including many
42:29types of cancer as well.
42:33The diseases that we try to treat
42:34individually with different medicines
42:36today that we think are unrelated,
42:38Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease, you
42:40name them.
42:41Fundamentally, what's driving a lot of
42:44those diseases
42:46is aging.
42:47If you never got old, would you ever get
42:49Alzheimer's even if you had the genes
42:51that predispose you? No.
42:54Right? And so, what we see in my lab is
42:56when we give an animal a disease, and we
42:58can do that, we can put in the human
43:00genes for Alzheimer's into a mouse,
43:03it becomes has dementia.
43:05When we reverse the age of the brain of
43:07that animal, we're not treating the
43:09disease, we're treating aging.
43:11The disease goes away. The body can heal
43:14itself when it's young.
43:16So, it's the aging process that reveals
43:18the disease that can be cured by
43:21reversing. Why does the aging process
43:24reveal a disease?
43:25Why don't we get Alzheimer's at 15?
43:28Because the cells are so healthy they
43:30can fix themselves. They can renew
43:32themselves.
43:33The disease processes that cause these
43:36problems for us don't exist when we're
43:38young.
43:40Why is it that a teenager rarely has a
43:42heart attack? Because their body
43:45prevents them.
43:46Why do young people typically not get
43:48cancer? Because the immune system
43:51finds cancer cells and clears them out.
43:53You and I have cancer cells in our body
43:55right now. Why are we probably not going
43:57to die in the next year? Cuz our immune
43:59system will find them and kill them.
44:01But as we get older, we're going to lose
44:03that ability,
44:04and we'll have a greater chance of
44:05having cancer. So, are you saying that
44:07if we cure aging, we're probably going
44:09to by way of that cure most of these
44:11diseases? 100%.
44:13We're talking about um
44:16menopause quite a lot on this podcast,
44:18and fertility, menopause, women's
44:20ovaries as um one of the first places
44:24that ages. And I've heard you explain
44:26that you think that evolution programmed
44:27women to stop having children during
44:29menopause because continuing
44:30reproduction would drain energy needed
44:32to raise existing children.
44:34So, is infertility something that could
44:36theoretically be prevented? In mice,
44:38which is where we live in my lab, where
44:40we work,
44:42it can be prevented and it can be
44:44reversed. I thought we run out of eggs.
44:47That's like the That's the current
44:48theory. The evidence that we have from
44:50my lab and a lab that I worked with in
44:53Australia
44:55caused me to question that idea that we
44:58run out that women run out of eggs.
45:01We have published
45:03and repeated many times
45:05that if you
45:07treat old female mice
45:1016 months of age, which is like a 65,
45:1370-year-old human,
45:14that has long time since given up having
45:18offspring,
45:20we can treat the ovaries with a chemical
45:23that rejuvenates the eggs
45:25that are in the ovary,
45:27maybe even produces new ones, we don't
45:30know for sure,
45:31but those 16-month-old mice that stopped
45:34having kids a
45:35uh probably at least 6 months ago,
45:38now start producing healthy offspring
45:40again.
45:41Their eggs look young, pristine,
45:44compared to the terrible eggs that if
45:46you try to harvest some eggs from a
45:47mouse that old,
45:48it's hard to find any that look normal.
45:51Their chromosomes are messed up, ripped
45:52apart. They're not going to produce
45:54healthy babies. But we can take those
45:57eggs, or at least the ovaries with those
45:59eggs in them,
46:01and cause them to be young again, and
46:03make fresh eggs
46:04that can produce healthy offspring that
46:06live a normal lifespan. The real
46:08question is, will this work in women?
46:11And that's something that I'm keen on
46:12testing.
46:15It's must be really hard to test a lot
46:16of these things in people, right? Cuz we
46:18you've mentioned the word mice quite a
46:20lot.
46:20>> It's harder than you can imagine,
46:22actually. Um and I've spent a lot of my
46:23career since I was 35 um
46:26aiming to develop a medicine
46:29to treat diseases and aging.
46:31And it can be it can go wrong in many
46:34ways. Um even if the science is good and
46:37right.
46:38Um and it it's there's money, there's
46:40business, there's laws,
46:42there's politics, there's
46:44business strategies, there's change of
46:46leaderships,
46:47um
46:49all sorts of human introduced
46:52variables that can get in the way.
46:53There's patents,
46:55and and then there's there's competition
46:58and spite that also gets into it. Um and
47:01I've had to
47:02deal with all of those things, including
47:05competing against some of the largest
47:06pharmaceutical companies in the world
47:07who really didn't want me to succeed.
47:10But yeah, it's extremely difficult to
47:12make a drug, but I do want to remind you
47:14and everyone listening and watching
47:17that we're beyond mice now for age
47:19reversal. We've done this in monkeys,
47:22monkeys that are
47:23physically and almost genetically
47:25identical to us.
47:27So, it's not a big leap from it is a
47:29pretty big leap from mouse to human, but
47:30from a monkey to a human,
47:32it's we're essentially
47:34you know, slightly smarter monkeys.
47:37I just had a thought about how other
47:39countries and other nations might be
47:41conducting their own sort of secret
47:43research, and they might not have the
47:45same bureaucratic, political, ethical
47:48considerations that you have to contend
47:50with. Do you think about this much that
47:52some of the sort of geopolitical
47:54adversaries might be doing secret
47:56testing in some
47:57research lab somewhere on humans? I
47:59think about it, um and in fact, the
48:01United States government thinks about
48:03it, too. A large investment into uh the
48:06com- one of the companies that I
48:08uh sit on the board of was blocked
48:11because the US government claimed that
48:13the technology was too dangerous to be
48:15in the hands of foreign
48:17companies and governments.
48:19So, there the US government, at least in
48:22in the previous administration, was
48:23extremely cautious about
48:25this technology falling into
48:28the wrong hands.
48:29Which technology? The ability to reverse
48:31aging. So, the US government blocked
48:34that technology because they were scared
48:35that it might fall into the wrong hands.
48:37Well, they blocked the the very large
48:39investment over $100 million into the
48:41company from a foreigner because they
48:43would have more access to
48:45the information and the progress. Is it
48:47China? Um I won't say more. It's
48:50sensitive.
48:51Most I can say is that governments are
48:53watching this technology very closely,
48:55not just the US, but around the world.
48:57Because the winner
49:00will make
49:01not not just a lot of economic benefit,
49:04but there will there will be potential
49:06for radical change in the pharmaceutical
49:08industry, in health care.
49:10Um the amount of change socially will be
49:12dramatic as well.
49:14But there are also uses that the
49:16government has identified,
49:18uh so-called super soldier potential.
49:21Now, I I don't agree that that's a
49:24reason to slow down the research.
49:26Others claim that it was worth it.
49:29But I do believe that the technology is
49:31very powerful, and we should start to
49:32get ready
49:33for when this comes to society. Cuz it's
49:37not an if, as I said, it's a when.
49:39The technology to do what?
49:41To rejuvenate the human body. Why do we
49:44need to get ready?
49:46Well, cuz it'll be massive social
49:47change. If you can choose how old you
49:49want to be,
49:51and people don't die as
49:53at 80 anymore. Let's say they they can
49:55live till 120 or beyond.
49:58There's big changes. There's social
49:59security issues. There's uh employment.
50:03Though, I will say that
50:04the the disaster scenario that often
50:07comes to mind when I talk about this,
50:09and which I covered in in the last part
50:11of my book, Lifespan,
50:13it's actually economically hugely
50:14advantageous to slow aging and prevent
50:17diseases.
50:18A lot of the US economy and most
50:20advanced economies goes to health care.
50:22And chronic disease, a lot of people are
50:24sick for 5 to 10 years,
50:26that's where most of people's savings
50:28and retirement and government money goes
50:29in. The most expensive years of your
50:31life are the last 2 years. If you can
50:34delay that,
50:35it's going to have massively positive
50:37economic benefits to a nation that
50:40adopts these medicines. I've got a
50:41question for you that actually came to
50:43mind yesterday when I was I watched some
50:45I don't know, some video on social media
50:46and they asked a question to a guy.
50:48Um David, if you were a billionaire now
50:51at age 56,
50:53would you give it all up
50:55to be
50:57my age again, 33?
51:00Um I don't think you can put a price on
51:02being young. Another way of of putting
51:04it I've I've seen this on social media,
51:05would you swap for a billion dollars,
51:07would you swap with Warren Buffett?
51:09No, absolutely not.
51:10>> Right. So, there's no money in the world
51:12that you want to be old, right? Uh Yeah.
51:14It's not worth it. In other words, youth
51:16is more valuable than a billion dollars.
51:20It may be the most valuable thing you
51:21could ever have
51:23is your youth.
51:24It is it's such an
51:26an interesting and illuminating analogy
51:28or metaphor or whatever because
51:30suddenly you do realize that how much we
51:32value it. We value it more than
51:34anything.
51:36I would rather be
51:3833 years old
51:40than be a 43-year-old billionaire.
51:43Even the 10 years I value as a billion
51:45dollars.
51:46Yeah. 1 year, maybe, but not 10 years,
51:49right? 10 years is super I I totally
51:51agree with you.
51:52Um and the older you get, the more
51:54valuable it becomes. It's important to
51:56realize the the massive impact that this
52:00technology can have, not just
52:02economically, but on individual lives of
52:04human beings across the planet. The
52:06world when this becomes
52:08a reality,
52:10again, I'm speaking like it's a
52:11certainty cuz I'm pretty convinced it's
52:13going to happen,
52:14the that world is going to be so
52:16different from the world we live in.
52:17It's going to be as different as
52:19the pre-computer world and the
52:21pre-airplane world as
52:23today is.
52:24I'm trying to imagine the world where we
52:26could pick our age.
52:28And maybe even, you know, you talked
52:29about earlier being able to continue to
52:31reset to that age. Yeah. Trying to
52:33imagine what the world would be like if
52:35I could be 33 forever.
52:37Or if you could be, you know, 33
52:40forever.
52:40>> Or even for another 100 years or
52:42something. Yeah. Yeah. I could stay 33
52:45for 100 years. Do you think that's the
52:47plausible outcome, which is we can kind
52:48of pick an age and stay there for
52:50100 years like at that particular age,
52:52or is it just that I'm going to be 150
52:55in my physical form, I'm going to be
52:57wrinkled and gray, but I'm just going to
53:00continue to live?
53:02Is it looking young, or is it just
53:04living longer?
53:06It's actually
53:07>> Both. It's It's The good news is it's
53:09both. And we're doing a lot of work in
53:11my lab on skin and hair,
53:13uh hair loss, hair graying. Yeah, please
53:15help me. Like if I
53:17>> [laughter]
53:17>> You don't have to worry just yet. Um
53:20you know, we'll we'll help your brother
53:21first. No, no, come on. Yeah, we will.
53:24Tell him to call me. Um so, we we we've
53:26seen that we can rejuvenate the skin of
53:28again mice, but still we we also grow
53:30human skin in the lab from scratch. And
53:32we can put that human skin on mice, and
53:35the mice have human skin. So, we can now
53:37test age reversal in that system.
53:40I'm very optimistic that we'll be able
53:42to rejuvenate uh the the external part
53:44of the body as well as the internal. If
53:46we can cure blindness,
53:48reversing the age of the skin is is a
53:49piece of cake.
53:51What What does that world look like? I'm
53:53trying to understand all of the sort of
53:54unintended consequences
53:57of such a world where we're all kind of
53:59young and we all live longer.
54:01Is there problems of meaning and
54:03purpose? Is this
54:05What are the unintended consequences?
54:07I've thought a lot about this. There's
54:08this gut feeling that a lot of people
54:10have, maybe you're feeling it now, is
54:12that if I'm not worried about death, I'm
54:15not going to strive as hard, I'm not
54:17going to have as much meaning, I'm not
54:18going to have agency.
54:21I totally reject that view.
54:23I believe that every moment is special.
54:26I I don't believe I would be enjoying
54:28this conversation with you anymore
54:30if I could live 200 years. I'm loving
54:33the moment. Mhm. All right. And so, I I
54:36believe that we get up with purpose,
54:39and that if I lived for 1,000 years, I'd
54:41still enjoy every day that I lived.
54:44And even 1,000 years, one day may be
54:46seen as too short.
54:48You know, it's 20 times my age, a little
54:50bit less than 20.
54:52That's still not very much in the grand
54:54scheme of, you know, the the age of uh
54:56geology and the Earth. We still are
54:58around like that.
55:00Uh and so, I think that we will still
55:02love life.
55:03Most of us will still love life and
55:04enjoy every moment. But we'll get more
55:06opportunities. We can try multiple
55:08careers. Maybe we we we will get
55:10divorced and find have a whole new life.
55:13So, there will be opportunities, and it
55:15will be a a magnificent world.
55:17Not to mention the productivity that
55:19humans can provide with the the
55:21knowledge
55:23of a 58- or 80-year-old, but with the
55:26body of a 30-year-old.
55:28Do you think people will make different
55:30decisions about having children?
55:31Well, I think we have a problem already
55:33with the decisions that a lot of couples
55:35are making, which is leaving it too
55:37late. Um
55:39it's very clear with the fertility rate
55:40and the rate of childbirth that
55:43basically we're going off a cliff.
55:45And I I think that
55:48it's going to be important to be able to
55:50give couples and women especially the
55:53choice to have children
55:54for longer.
55:56And that's one of the reasons that I
55:56work on this topic is that I think that
55:58the world with all of the the training
56:00that we need to do and the pressures on
56:02finding a mate
56:04and being happily married or or at least
56:06being partnered up,
56:07that can take decades to get the right
56:09person. You don't want to rush into it
56:10like people used to.
56:12And being able to have children in your
56:1350s and 60s, I think, would be a great
56:16gift to humanity. That's my personal
56:18view. Some people may, you know, for
56:20whatever reason disagree with that, but
56:22I think that the pressures to have
56:23children before 35
56:25typically are just extreme and and
56:28unfair.
56:29But also that it'll help
56:31us maintain the human population cuz by
56:332050 we're going to start
56:35going in a bad decline and earlier in
56:37many Western countries. And without
56:39humans, you know, absent Android robots
56:42everywhere, we're going to have a
56:44deficiency of human capital and human
56:46productivity. And this is I would argue
56:49with Elon
56:51that this is the best solution to that
56:53uh lack of humans is just keep people
56:55healthy and alive and productive for
56:57longer.
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59:02You mentioned uh cancer earlier on as
59:04something that you're working on in your
59:05laboratory. What progress have you made
59:08in your laboratory, and what has that
59:09taught you about what the nature of
59:10cancer, but also how we might prevent
59:12and cure it someday? Cuz I I was reading
59:14that in your laboratory you have been
59:16able to
59:18slow the growth of certain cancer cells
59:20and kill those cancer cells completely.
59:22Yeah, uh so, my
59:24my wonderful student Nallath uh is is it
59:26doing a PhD on this.
59:29And what we've hypothesized and now
59:31tested is the idea again based on the
59:34information theory of aging is that
59:36cancer is
59:38expressing those genes differently.
59:41In the same way that aging is is a
59:43cellular identity crisis, cancer is a
59:46cellular identity crisis.
59:48And that
59:49if we can rejuvenate an old cell to be
59:52normal and turn on the right genes
59:53again, we should be able to do that for
59:55a cancer cell. Mhm. And either make it
59:57normal
59:58or if it tries to be normal and wakes up
1:00:02from its zombie-like state, it might
1:00:04even kill itself. And that's what we're
1:00:06finding in my lab. Now lots of work has
1:00:09shown that a majority of cancers that
1:00:12we've grown in the lab
1:00:14will die and shrink in an animal if you
1:00:18try to reverse their age.
1:00:20Through the injection
1:00:23that you were referring to earlier on.
1:00:24>> Yeah, we can do it a couple of ways. One
1:00:26is using those three genes that
1:00:28rejuvenate the epigenome and make cells
1:00:31young again. Yeah. The one for the eye,
1:00:33the same technology for the eye we're
1:00:35using in cancer cells.
1:00:37But we also have this chemical drink
1:00:39that we can give to animals or to put on
1:00:42the cells and that also wakes the cancer
1:00:45cells up, tries to they try to become
1:00:47more normal, they turn on the original
1:00:49set of genes that they might have had on
1:00:5230, 40 years ago. Some of these cancer
1:00:54cells that we grow in the lab were
1:00:55from the 20th century.
1:00:58We rejuvenate them, we turn on those old
1:01:00those genes that were originally in the
1:01:02normal tissue
1:01:04and the cells kill themselves. And so I
1:01:06believe that
1:01:08we may not be able to cure all cancer
1:01:10using this. That would be crazy to even
1:01:11say that. But I do believe that if we're
1:01:14successful rejuvenating the human body,
1:01:16cancer is not
1:01:19going to be a risk and that's just a
1:01:21nice
1:01:23side effect of what our original mission
1:01:25was, which was to treat aging. So from
1:01:29this we can start to try and understand
1:01:31what we think is causing cancer. And I
1:01:33guess this goes back to the a lot of the
1:01:35carcinogenic behavior that you described
1:01:37earlier, things like smoking, anything
1:01:39that's applying stress on the DNA. Is
1:01:41that like a Yeah, you have to break the
1:01:43DNA. Okay.
1:01:45>> That's the
1:01:46a catastrophe is really broken DNA, but
1:01:48you can do other things that are
1:01:49catastrophes like overheat the cells, um
1:01:52even mechanical stress.
1:01:55I don't know.
1:01:56Too many hits on the brain in football
1:01:58will will do that. So yes, uh that's
1:02:01exactly right and that drives aging and
1:02:04aging drives cancer, by the way. One of
1:02:06my theories called the geronco-genesis
1:02:08hypothesis. Terrible name, but
1:02:11nevertheless, geronco-genesis it it is.
1:02:14It's the idea that as we age, we're
1:02:16becoming more cancer-like as as a as a
1:02:18human.
1:02:19Our metabolism when we're old is closer
1:02:22to
1:02:23heading towards what a cancer cell's
1:02:25metabolism is like. So that when we
1:02:26actually do get cancer, the cancer cells
1:02:29grow better in an old person than when
1:02:31you're young. And so by rejuvenating
1:02:33those cancer cells, giving them the
1:02:36the ability to
1:02:38be young again, they actually either
1:02:40slow down in their growth or as I said,
1:02:42kill themselves in response. I've got a
1:02:44bit of a a prop here which might be
1:02:47useful for the the context of
1:02:49>> Oh goodness, does
1:02:50There are people here that may not know
1:02:52what I'm holding in my hands, but uh for
1:02:54those of you who don't know and who are
1:02:56just listening, I'm holding a record
1:02:59uh in my hands, a vinyl record uh that
1:03:02Steven just handed me.
1:03:04So the the information theory of aging,
1:03:07uh the analogy that I used is that it
1:03:09disrupts information and so this record,
1:03:11this album has information on it.
1:03:14It's music and just like DNA, it's
1:03:17information. So instead of the DNA
1:03:20information the the control of the DNA
1:03:22getting messed up, it
1:03:23in the album, it's like scratching this
1:03:26album.
1:03:27So I'm literally going to scratch this
1:03:28album. Is that okay with you?
1:03:29>> Yes, you can. All right. I'm not sure I
1:03:31can fix it, by the way. It may be a
1:03:33one-way thing, but
1:03:35I've never done this before, but yeah,
1:03:38that's painful.
1:03:40Maybe you can hear that happening.
1:03:43So if we were to play this on a record
1:03:45player with a needle, it's going to jump
1:03:48around and it's going to read the wrong
1:03:49songs or it's it's going to certainly
1:03:51not sound very good. So that's that's
1:03:54now the equivalent of an old cell. The
1:03:56information, the beautiful music is
1:03:59there, but the ability to read it has
1:04:01has been messed up. In the same way that
1:04:03old age, the information is in the DNA,
1:04:05but you the cells don't read it
1:04:07correctly. And what our technology is is
1:04:10to get rid of those scratches and so we
1:04:13can play the beautiful music of our
1:04:14youth again.
1:04:16Um I have got this You told me to to
1:04:19bring my weighted vest and this neck
1:04:22brace.
1:04:23Oh my goodness. I got I think I put it
1:04:25on the wrong way. Okay. If any anyone
1:04:27listening, Steven's putting on a very
1:04:29heavy jacket right now with lead weights
1:04:31and a strap around his neck to limit his
1:04:33neck movement. Oh, wow.
1:04:36That's a lot. This So I'm I just I put
1:04:38on a 20 I think it's 20 kg. My son's
1:04:41weak now. Um
1:04:44jacket and a neck brace.
1:04:47And ahead of this conversation, my team
1:04:49told me to get one of these.
1:04:50What is the analogy here that you're
1:04:52you're creating? This is very
1:04:55It's bad, right?
1:04:56>> It's hard, yeah.
1:04:57>> Right. Imagine
1:04:58the feeling like that for a decade.
1:05:00That's old age. You would feeling tired,
1:05:03weak, you can barely hold your body up,
1:05:06you can barely move your neck. It would
1:05:07be painful. You're not in pain yet. No.
1:05:09But most people in their 80s have
1:05:12some sort of disease and aches and
1:05:13pains.
1:05:15Try doing that for another 10 minutes.
1:05:17Maybe How long you can you keep that on?
1:05:19I'll keep it on for another 10 minutes.
1:05:21But so why is this cuz it just it's
1:05:23weight and immobility. I can't move my
1:05:26neck the same. My shoulders feel
1:05:29heavier.
1:05:30How how is this a relevant analogy to
1:05:32aging? Because it just it just kind of
1:05:33feels like immobility and weight. Uh
1:05:36well, I have to come over there and use
1:05:38this pair of scissors to be stabbing you
1:05:40as well so if you can feel pain as you
1:05:42move as well. That's part of old age. It
1:05:45is not a fun thing being old. And most
1:05:48old people, the reason that they don't
1:05:50love life anymore is because they feel
1:05:52like you do or worse.
1:05:54Not to mention the fact that they're you
1:05:56need to put Vaseline on your eyes,
1:05:59earplugs in your ears if you want to
1:06:01know what it's like being old. Oh god,
1:06:04it's not nice. Mhm. Or even worse, shut
1:06:06your eyes and you can never open them
1:06:08again.
1:06:10That's what it's like for those patients
1:06:11that we hope to cure blindness in.
1:06:14If if I'm going to ask you a really
1:06:15tough question, which is if I put a
1:06:17calculator in front of you right now and
1:06:19you had to hit a number on that
1:06:20calculator and then hit enter and that
1:06:23was the age that you were going to live
1:06:24to and you had to make that decision
1:06:26now,
1:06:27what number would you hit on that
1:06:29calculator? Infinity. Really? So you did
1:06:329999999.
1:06:33>> There's no day if you're healthy where
1:06:35you want to die.
1:06:37Even if you're 100, 120, if you have
1:06:39friends, family, loved ones, you're
1:06:41healthy,
1:06:42would you say okay, tomorrow I'm ready
1:06:44to die? No. No. Unless there was some
1:06:47kind of psychiatric issue or something.
1:06:48>> Exactly. Right? So that's my point is
1:06:51when people say, "Oh, when I'm 80, kill
1:06:53me." That is That's Excuse my
1:06:55language. Am I allowed to swear on this?
1:06:57>> Yeah, of course you can. Um Sorry, we're
1:06:59going to beep over the curse words. It's
1:07:00It's only when you're sick or you have
1:07:03depression that you want to leave the
1:07:05leave this world. Otherwise, life is a
1:07:08joy for most people on in the world. Not
1:07:10everybody and we have to fix that as
1:07:11well. But for most of us,
1:07:15being alive is is the greatest gift of
1:07:17any, mhm, you know,
1:07:19collection of atoms.
1:07:21Consciousness is even greater.
1:07:23And why would you want that to end?
1:07:26Who would choose that if they had the
1:07:28alternative to be with family and
1:07:30friends? Interesting.
1:07:32I say that's interesting because I have
1:07:34always assumed that I wouldn't want to
1:07:36live forever, but the when when you
1:07:39asked me if I was healthy
1:07:42and I had my friends and family and I
1:07:44was doing [clears throat] things that I
1:07:45loved professionally, would there come a
1:07:47day where I would choose to go now? No,
1:07:50there wouldn't. Just like there hasn't
1:07:52come a day in the last 33 years where
1:07:54I've chosen to go now. Mhm.
1:07:57Exactly. Do you think it's it's going to
1:07:59be possible in the next 50 years for us
1:08:02to live forever?
1:08:04I'd be shocked if that happened, but
1:08:07I've been shocked my whole career at how
1:08:09fast this technology is moving. And now
1:08:10with AI, things are going so fast, my
1:08:12head's spinning.
1:08:14So I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but
1:08:16I'm I'm skeptical that we could live
1:08:18forever in my lifetime, at least.
1:08:21But as I said, you're probably you're
1:08:22probably going to live you are going to
1:08:24live into the 22nd century.
1:08:26We can't imagine what the the world's
1:08:28going to be like then. And AI has really
1:08:30changed this equation. Oh, absolutely.
1:08:33We're We're doing things in my lab that
1:08:35would have taken 160 years before. And
1:08:38and quite literally billions of dollars
1:08:41on a 10 $10,000 budget.
1:08:43Well, I guess I better make it to 2040.
1:08:46Um so let's talk about fasting and food
1:08:49and nutrition and get go a little bit
1:08:51deeper on that. I've had so so many
1:08:53conversations over the years about this
1:08:54subject of fasting, but um as I was
1:08:57reading your research, you really do
1:08:59feel that fasting, just eating less
1:09:02often,
1:09:04is one of the most important things that
1:09:05we can all do for longevity. I I do. I
1:09:08do and I practice it as much as I can,
1:09:10though it's challenging in a world
1:09:11that's full of abundant food.
1:09:13But yes, we've known for thousands of
1:09:15years. The ancients are not dummies.
1:09:18They They could witness what happens
1:09:19when you fast.
1:09:21Uh clarity of mind, long-term health.
1:09:24They could observe the difference
1:09:25between the gluttons and the people that
1:09:27fasted for religious reasons. It's
1:09:28obvious.
1:09:29But there's certain ways to do it.
1:09:30Fasting doesn't include malnutrition.
1:09:32You have to do it with abundant, you
1:09:35know, vitamins, minerals. You want to
1:09:36make sure that you're you you have
1:09:38adequate nutrition.
1:09:40But I think three meals a day is is
1:09:42craziness. It turns out this idea
1:09:44breakfast is the most important meal of
1:09:45the day
1:09:46is marketing from the early 20th century
1:09:49by companies I will not name. But it was
1:09:51breakfast cereal. Breakfast is not the
1:09:53most important meal of the day for most
1:09:55people, especially adults.
1:09:57Especially if you're not hungry when you
1:09:58wake up. There's no point in eating if
1:10:00you're not hungry in the morning.
1:10:02I'm one of those people. So, I've
1:10:03skipped breakfast. How about you? Yeah,
1:10:05I'm the same. I'm the same. I don't eat.
1:10:06My first meal today was 3:00 p.m.
1:10:08because I had a podcast until, you know,
1:10:102:00 2:00 p.m. So, which is typical for
1:10:12me. I just don't get hungry in the
1:10:13mornings. Now, because of the marketing
1:10:15there for breakfast, sometime I've
1:10:17sometimes I've said to myself, "Oh, you
1:10:18should eat." And I'll make myself eat.
1:10:20But it's very very rare. I'm notoriously
1:10:22people know that I'm notoriously
1:10:25um a late eater. 4:00 p.m. sometimes,
1:10:275:00 p.m. if I'm in the office. How you
1:10:29feeling with that heavy vest on?
1:10:30>> It's heavy, David. I'm going to be
1:10:31honest. It's not I'm finding myself like
1:10:33trying to find a comfortable position.
1:10:35Yeah, it it's tough being old. And by
1:10:37the end of it, you will
1:10:39be so convinced that this research is
1:10:41important. Because to live like that,
1:10:43It's not in most people, life is not
1:10:45worth living.
1:10:46I put a suit, a very heavy suit like
1:10:48that, but on the arms as well, not just
1:10:50the body.
1:10:51And he had the the earmuffs and the the
1:10:53eyes. This was the the governor of
1:10:56Massachusetts. 15 minutes in that body
1:10:58suit, and he was crying. Not because he
1:11:01was in pain, because he as he said on
1:11:04stage, it was the first time in his life
1:11:06he understood how his father feels
1:11:09and could be empathetic.
1:11:11We, young people, I'm relatively young,
1:11:1356. You're very young, 33.
1:11:15We have no idea what it's like to be
1:11:17old.
1:11:18It can be horrific. So, why wouldn't we
1:11:20do the right things like fasting,
1:11:24exercising, [clears throat]
1:11:25so we can get an extra 10 years, maybe
1:11:28longer of healthy life. It does also
1:11:30give me a lot of empathy for people that
1:11:33have a bit more weight on them as well
1:11:35because if, you know,
1:11:37if I was if I weighed that much, I don't
1:11:39know if I'd be very active to to be
1:11:41completely honest with you.
1:11:41>> Exactly. And and you're in pain, too.
1:11:43Don't forget. Every joint can be
1:11:45hurting. How do you feel taking that
1:11:46off?
1:11:46>> Much better.
1:11:48Right. Free. Like I want to jump. So,
1:11:50let's
1:11:52hope, pray, wish
1:11:55that these technologies that I'm talking
1:11:56about today work.
1:11:58Cuz that could be what it feels like to
1:12:00be rejuvenated when you're 80.
1:12:03Hm. I hope so. [clears throat]
1:12:04Um to close off on this point of of a
1:12:06fasting, why why does it help extend my
1:12:08life?
1:12:09>> Yeah. Just eating less. Part of it came
1:12:11out of research in my lab, but of course
1:12:12many others I need to give credit to.
1:12:15But in my lab specifically, what we
1:12:16worked on initially when I started, we
1:12:19studied yeast cells.
1:12:21Little microscopic cells that, as
1:12:23everyone knows, we use to make beer and
1:12:25bread and champagne.
1:12:27These yeast cells live about 10 days and
1:12:29then they die. And we used yeast as a
1:12:31model for aging.
1:12:32And what we discovered with yeast cells,
1:12:34which turns out to be true in our
1:12:35bodies, is that adversity, as long as
1:12:38it's not killing these cells, is good
1:12:41for you.
1:12:42It's called hormesis.
1:12:44It's the technical term for what doesn't
1:12:45kill you makes you stronger and live
1:12:47longer.
1:12:48Adversity mode is what we're aiming for.
1:12:51The opposite
1:12:52is abundance mode, which is what modern
1:12:54life is all about.
1:12:56Popcorn, movies, wheels on your
1:12:59suitcase, sitting down all day.
1:13:02It's we're in an abundance world. So,
1:13:05adversity is something we don't often
1:13:06feel. We have to work at it.
1:13:08Fasting is adversity.
1:13:10Exercise is adversity. Cold plunges,
1:13:12saunas, adversity.
1:13:14Adversity mimics. They're not really
1:13:16threatening your life. What happens at
1:13:18the cellular cellular level
1:13:20is that those cells,
1:13:22they get freaked out. They're worried
1:13:24that these times of adversity could kill
1:13:27us, so they fight back.
1:13:29They turn on repair systems. They turn
1:13:31on recycling systems.
1:13:34They turn on DNA repair systems that
1:13:36help slow down aging.
1:13:38So, in this modern world we when we have
1:13:40total abundance, we don't have to
1:13:41exercise, we don't don't we eat three
1:13:42meals a day,
1:13:44we get overweight, we don't sleep much,
1:13:46we have air conditioning in summer,
1:13:48we're actually aging faster than we need
1:13:50to cuz our bodies are not fighting aging
1:13:53like they do when they feel adversity.
1:13:56Your team discovered I can't say the
1:13:58word sirtuinous.
1:14:00Oh, well. I was one of many scientists
1:14:03in the 1990s.
1:14:04Uh I was part of a team called sirtuins.
1:14:07Yeah.
1:14:07>> Sirtuins. Yeah.
1:14:09Yeah, that in yeast, actually. That's
1:14:11right. Uh
1:14:12That's a good story. I went to the US
1:14:16to figure out why we get old. But I
1:14:18didn't choose to study humans cuz I
1:14:20figured
1:14:21if we can't figure it out for little
1:14:23yeast cells, we'll never figure it out
1:14:24for humans. So, I went to MIT. My
1:14:27professor was Lenny Guarente. I went to
1:14:30his lab and I said, "I'm I'm not going.
1:14:31I'm not leaving." The goal was to in my
1:14:34mind was to figure out are there
1:14:36longevity genes? At that time, most
1:14:38people thought that there were aging
1:14:40genes that caused aging, death genes.
1:14:43That doesn't make any sense to me. Our
1:14:44bodies would have longevity genes that
1:14:46give life.
1:14:47So, in yeast I went searching for them.
1:14:49And out of that work came two things.
1:14:52The first is Lenny and I, my professor
1:14:54and I published
1:14:55in the journal Cell, which was a massive
1:14:57big deal in those days, still is. It was
1:14:59my first time. The first
1:15:02evidence for a cause of aging for any
1:15:04species.
1:15:06We figured out why yeast cells get old.
1:15:08Do you want to guess?
1:15:09Hm. Why do yeast cells get old?
1:15:13>> Have you been paying attention? What
1:15:14does the information theory of aging
1:15:16say? I was going to say they have an
1:15:17identity crisis, but They do. How would
1:15:20we know if they have they're having an
1:15:21identity crisis?
1:15:22>> Oh, you can measure the identity of
1:15:23yeast cells. They have an identity. It's
1:15:26called their mating type. The main
1:15:27identity of a yeast cell is they are
1:15:29either A type or alpha type.
1:15:32Male, female.
1:15:34And the hallmark of a yeast cell that's
1:15:37old is it loses
1:15:39its A and alpha identity
1:15:42and gets
1:15:43an identity crisis. It doesn't know what
1:15:45sex it is and it doesn't mate anymore.
1:15:47Becomes sterile.
1:15:49So, when I arrived at MIT in 1995, we
1:15:52knew that the hallmark of an old yeast
1:15:54cell, besides of being a bit slow and
1:15:56bigger, is that it became sterile.
1:15:59It had an identity crisis. So, we
1:16:00figured out that broken chromosomes
1:16:04distract the sirtuin defenses
1:16:07and that causes aging in a yeast cell.
1:16:10But we didn't know in the '90s that that
1:16:12was going to be true for us as well. It
1:16:14took another decade or two to figure
1:16:16that out. And how does this link to
1:16:17eating all the time? Yeah. So, sirtuins
1:16:20are proteins that actually are attracted
1:16:24to DNA.
1:16:25They actually associate with it and they
1:16:26protect
1:16:28uh
1:16:29the DNA from getting damaged. Okay, like
1:16:31bodyguards. Yeah. And they repair broken
1:16:33chromosomes. Right? It's all coming
1:16:35together now.
1:16:36But they also get distracted. So, look,
1:16:39a sirtuin's normal job, if there's no
1:16:41crisis, is that they turn genes on and
1:16:43off. They are epigenetic regulators.
1:16:45They control the epigenome. They tell a
1:16:48cell what type it is. Nerve cells, skin
1:16:50cells, right?
1:16:51>> Okay, conductor. Thank you. Conductor,
1:16:53exactly.
1:16:54But the conductor
1:16:57becomes demented over time.
1:16:59What happens is when you have a
1:17:01chromosomal break,
1:17:03the sirtuins panic. They leave the DNA,
1:17:06what they're supposed to be doing,
1:17:07controlling the cells' identity,
1:17:09and they go and they repair the DNA.
1:17:11That's their other job. They have two
1:17:12jobs. Identity and repair.
1:17:15So, when you have this break, the
1:17:16sirtuins go away. They repair the
1:17:17problem, but they don't all go back in
1:17:20the next few minutes. It's very quick.
1:17:22They don't all go back to where they
1:17:23started. So, you've got like this tennis
1:17:25match that the sirtuins are the balls
1:17:28and they get hit over to the break, then
1:17:30hit back.
1:17:31Most of them find the genes that they
1:17:33should go back to, but they don't all do
1:17:35that. And that total game of tennis, or
1:17:37ping pong if you like,
1:17:39is what I believe causes the identity
1:17:41crisis and aging itself
1:17:43causes aging in yeast cells. It's why
1:17:45yeast cells don't live longer than 10
1:17:46days. And I believe it's why we struggle
1:17:48to live beyond 80 or 90.
1:17:50So, if I'm eating all the time, then
1:17:52those sirtuins, they're not going to be
1:17:54doing their job as the
1:17:56the conductor, making sure I know the
1:17:58identity of my cells. They're going to
1:18:00be doing repair stuff.
1:18:02So, I'm going to age faster. Yes. And
1:18:05the breakthrough happened in the lab as
1:18:07I was just leaving to go to Harvard. I
1:18:09got a job at Harvard when I was 29.
1:18:12Super excited.
1:18:13And just as I was leaving, there was a
1:18:15big breakthrough that they actually kept
1:18:16it secret from me cuz I they were
1:18:18worried I was going to work on it when I
1:18:20left.
1:18:21And in fact, my professor tried to
1:18:22prevent me from working on it when I
1:18:24left.
1:18:25On sirtuins in general. Crazy to think
1:18:27about, but
1:18:28what they discovered
1:18:30was that there's a
1:18:31a metabolite, a molecule,
1:18:34that goes up and down with food and up
1:18:36and down with sleep
1:18:38called NAD.
1:18:40We have lots of it. There's grams of it
1:18:41in our body. It's one of the most
1:18:42abundant molecules in the body. It's
1:18:43very ancient. It's in yeast. It's in us.
1:18:46And what they found was that sirtuins,
1:18:49to control genes and to repair DNA
1:18:52that's broken,
1:18:53they don't do it unless there's NAD.
1:18:56It's the catalyst. It's the fuel for
1:18:57their reaction. They need NAD.
1:19:00And when we're young, we have lots of
1:19:02NAD. So, it works well. The sirtuins
1:19:04control the information on the genes and
1:19:07they repair the DNA very well cuz
1:19:09they've got lots of NAD to carry out
1:19:11their their work. These are enzymes.
1:19:13They work. They do things.
1:19:15As we get older, by the time you're 50,
1:19:17about my age, you have half the levels
1:19:20of this NAD molecule.
1:19:21My body is making less NAD and it's also
1:19:24destroying the NAD faster than when I
1:19:26was 20.
1:19:28That's a problem. And so what we found
1:19:30was that when we fast the yeast
1:19:32or we fast a human,
1:19:34NAD levels go up again.
1:19:37So fasting raises NAD and makes the
1:19:39sirtuins
1:19:40young again, essentially. And that
1:19:42preserves the epigenome and it also
1:19:44repairs the DNA better. So can I just
1:19:46drink NAD? Uh you can drink NAD and not
1:19:49much would
1:19:50How How do I happen? How do I take NAD?
1:19:52Uh so NAD can be taken as a supplement,
1:19:54which is a pre-precursor to NAD. It's
1:19:57better to take the precursors. A
1:19:59precursor meaning something that creates
1:20:00it. Exactly. There's one called NMN,
1:20:03not to be confused with M&M's, which
1:20:05will probably not make you live longer.
1:20:07And there's another one called NR. NMN
1:20:09is directly converted into NAD. You put
1:20:11two NMNs together, you get NAD in cell.
1:20:13We know this for a fact. This isn't
1:20:14isn't speculation. When you give a human
1:20:16NMN by swallowing it, a gram of it,
1:20:19you can you typically double the amount
1:20:21of NAD in your body. And we believe, and
1:20:24we have some evidence now in human
1:20:25clinical trials,
1:20:27that the sirtuins are imparting health
1:20:29benefits,
1:20:30reestablishing the epigenome,
1:20:32lowering body weight,
1:20:34uh improving inflammation,
1:20:36uh and even changing cholesterol levels
1:20:38in a positive way in humans.
1:20:40So I mean, I'm assuming you take NMN.
1:20:43I've been taking NMN and admitting that
1:20:45publicly uh for a while now. And my
1:20:48father, who
1:20:49is uh an even
1:20:51more advanced uh experiment at 86.
1:20:55So yes, we've been taking it for over a
1:20:56decade now. And we're still alive, so so
1:20:59far, so good.
1:21:00>> So far, so good. I do want to get into,
1:21:01and I will ask you in a second, about
1:21:02the the supplement stack that you would
1:21:04recommend for the average person. Um but
1:21:06that's good to know. But just to close
1:21:07off on this point of fasting,
1:21:10is there a particular type of fasting
1:21:12method that you would recommend
1:21:15for someone who's trying to, you know,
1:21:16improve their longevity?
1:21:18Cuz there's so many that I hear say 16
1:21:20hours, 5 days. I'm a scientist, so I go
1:21:22with what's proven. I'm not selling
1:21:24anything. So what the science says,
1:21:26first of all, is that there isn't one
1:21:28size fits all for everybody.
1:21:30Um it it often depends on what you can
1:21:32do personally.
1:21:34It's challenging to do this, right?
1:21:36You'll feel hungry for the first 2 weeks
1:21:38you try it.
1:21:39So I I would suggest
1:21:41the way I do it is I start by skipping
1:21:44one and then maybe 1 and 1/2 meals.
1:21:49Uh like what you do, try to go without a
1:21:51meal until 3:00, 4:00 if you can. Maybe
1:21:55not the first day, right? If you do that
1:21:57the first day, you'll say, "This is
1:21:58crazy. I'm I'm going to grab a snack."
1:22:00And you won't do it. So go slowly, build
1:22:02up to it. So the first day, I would say
1:22:04just don't eat breakfast and maybe have
1:22:07a snack mid-morning.
1:22:08A week later, try to go without
1:22:10breakfast completely until lunch.
1:22:13And eventually work up to what you do
1:22:14and I do, which is eat a very late lunch
1:22:16if not go to dinner. What you get with
1:22:18that is obviously not eating in bed,
1:22:21hopefully. So you've got that the night
1:22:23fast starting
1:22:25what would it be? 7:00 p.m. roughly when
1:22:27do you finish dinner? God, no comment.
1:22:29Okay. It's usually pretty late. Last
1:22:31night it was, you know, it was This is
1:22:32probably why I don't eat very early the
1:22:34next day. Last night would have been
1:22:36about, I'm going to say, 10:00 p.m.
1:22:39Okay. It was super late. It was That's
1:22:41an extraordinary example. Usually it
1:22:42would be
1:22:448:00 or 9:00 p.m.
1:22:46Okay, but but you've got at least 13, 14
1:22:48hours, which is good. Yeah. I aim for 14
1:22:50hours. Some people go 16 hours, but
1:22:52that's a good start for fasting.
1:22:55And hopefully you can do that most days,
1:22:565 days a week. Mhm. That's great, cuz
1:22:59that means that you're turning on your
1:23:00sirtuins, raising your NAD. You're
1:23:02exercise You exercise as well, so that's
1:23:04also adding to it. One thing that I've
1:23:06started doing is fasting for longer than
1:23:10just
1:23:1114, 16 hours. I try maybe once a month
1:23:14to go for 3 days without eating. Why?
1:23:17Because there's a type of cellular
1:23:19recycling that doesn't happen
1:23:21within the first 16 hours.
1:23:24Um you will enter ketosis, so you'll see
1:23:26your body will start to change its
1:23:27metabolism to produce what's called
1:23:28ketone bodies.
1:23:30But the true, real, deep clean cleansing
1:23:33of old proteins and damage
1:23:36damaged proteins happens after
1:23:392 and 1/2 to 3 days. And it's called
1:23:41chaperone-mediated autophagy. Autophagy?
1:23:44Autophagy is the word for
1:23:46auto, self-eating.
1:23:49And it really kicks in
1:23:51for with an extended fast. What's the
1:23:52evolutionary reason for that? What's
1:23:54going on there? Why does it take me 2
1:23:55and 1/2 days for this deep clean to
1:23:56happen? Uh cuz your body doesn't want to
1:23:59uh do it. It costs a lot of energy and
1:24:02having to remake body parts is energy
1:24:04expensive. And our body tries to
1:24:06conserve energy as much as possible.
1:24:09Uh when you're fasting, what it'll it
1:24:10needs to do is to use your body as fuel.
1:24:14So it'll start breaking down proteins
1:24:16for fuel that you need. So first of all,
1:24:18what will happen is in the first few
1:24:20hours, you use glycogen from your your
1:24:21liver. Your liver makes glucose.
1:24:23You'll feel a little bit hungry, but
1:24:24you'll eventually be fine.
1:24:26Then once you run run out of glycogen,
1:24:28then you're going to start breaking down
1:24:29fat and making ketones.
1:24:32Uh that's when you start to get a bit of
1:24:33bad breath from
1:24:35from that. And you but you feel great.
1:24:37When you're in a
1:24:38between about 15 hours and 24 hours,
1:24:42that's when you get a lot of ketones.
1:24:43And your brain uses those for fuel, so
1:24:45you'll have sharp mind, can remember
1:24:47things, you can focus on work if you
1:24:49ever get there.
1:24:51Beyond that, you need to break down fat.
1:24:53And uh
1:24:54that is uh when your body is
1:24:58starting to do that. But ultimately,
1:25:00what what what happens after 3 days is
1:25:01your body says,
1:25:03"Hey, I'm going to start breaking down
1:25:04protein as well."
1:25:06And uh
1:25:07I wouldn't do that often because I don't
1:25:09want to break down a lot of protein, but
1:25:10your body will start to turn over old
1:25:12proteins preferentially.
1:25:14And a little bit of that, that's why I
1:25:15do it maybe once a month,
1:25:17has been shown, at least in animals, to
1:25:19be not just healthy, but life
1:25:21extending.
1:25:22On that point of ketosis,
1:25:25um
1:25:27I like being in a state of ketosis. I
1:25:30kind of cycle in and out of it during
1:25:32the year,
1:25:33because I get so many of the like
1:25:34cognitive benefits. I'm more articulate
1:25:36on the podcast, I can think better.
1:25:38I feel better. I feel more focused and
1:25:40more attentive.
1:25:42Is ketosis
1:25:44is the ketone diet
1:25:46the keto diet a healthy diet
1:25:48in your view? Is it What are the
1:25:49benefits of it? Is it something that you
1:25:51think is natural to be recommended?
1:25:53>> Well, I don't mind being controversial,
1:25:54but I do speak the truth. Um there's not
1:25:57a lot of evidence that long-term the key
1:25:59ketogenic diet is healthy. Mhm. It
1:26:01certainly doesn't correlate or associate
1:26:03with uh longevity.
1:26:05Short-term, okay. It does help people
1:26:07lose weight, no question.
1:26:09Uh but I am rather concerned for people
1:26:11that don't have a balanced diet with an
1:26:14input of plant material, which has
1:26:17molecules that are unique to plants and
1:26:19you won't find
1:26:20in high-processed foods uh or meat.
1:26:24The evidence, speaking as a scientist,
1:26:26is that the long-term ketogenic diets
1:26:29are not
1:26:30going to be longevity inducing.
1:26:33The evidence is more having a lean diet
1:26:36with a focus on plants that are not
1:26:38overcooked and not all ultra-processed.
1:26:41That one is undoubtedly the healthiest
1:26:44if you can do it. Do you eat meat? I do
1:26:47eat meat, but not like I used to.
1:26:50I used to think that a meal was not a
1:26:52meal unless I had a piece of meat there
1:26:54and then the vegetables were the
1:26:55decoration.
1:26:56And I'd begrudgingly eat the green
1:26:58stuff.
1:26:59I've been flipped totally. Um Serena, my
1:27:02partner, Serena Poon, is not just a
1:27:04nutritionist, but a longevity expert for
1:27:06the last 26 years. And so she came to my
1:27:10apartment, uh which is now our
1:27:12apartment, and she just cleared out all
1:27:13the food that I had. Pretty much
1:27:14everything was either toxic or uh or
1:27:18just not healthy. It was
1:27:19ultra-processed. She said, "What are you
1:27:21eating? That kind of
1:27:22peanut butter, you know, full of sugar."
1:27:24So she she's taught me how to live
1:27:26healthy. And so now
1:27:28I rarely eat meat. I rarely drink
1:27:30alcohol. I focus on
1:27:33really fresh, high-quality
1:27:35uh preferably organic foods, cuz I don't
1:27:37want pesticides and I I don't want other
1:27:39contaminants.
1:27:41But I do know organic can be more more
1:27:43expensive.
1:27:44Why not meat?
1:27:46So animals, unfortunately, don't make
1:27:48what are called polyphenols, which are
1:27:50a type of molecule that uh I believe uh
1:27:54and have evidence
1:27:56turns on the sirtuins and other
1:27:58pathways, biochemical reactions that
1:28:02delay aging. So sirtuins are just one of
1:28:05a few
1:28:06enzymes that control aging. We know
1:28:08this. There are sirtuins, there's mTOR,
1:28:11which responds to aminos, and another
1:28:14one called AMPK. So those three pathways
1:28:17are altered in just the right way by
1:28:20molecules found only in plants. Well,
1:28:23and a small extent in fun- fungi, but
1:28:25not in meat.
1:28:27So if you're not eating a lot of
1:28:28vegetables or fruits, you're not getting
1:28:30these
1:28:31molecules. They're like medicine as
1:28:33food.
1:28:34So right
1:28:35here, I hope you don't mind me
1:28:37mentioning that there are some some food
1:28:39in front of us. And I'm looking at
1:28:40blueberries here. Blueberries are packed
1:28:43with polyphenols. It's one of the
1:28:44reasons they have purple color is that
1:28:46polyphenols have the color. And as
1:28:48Serena would tell you, eat the rainbow.
1:28:51I call it xenohormesis, which is not as
1:28:53attractive. But xenohormesis is the same
1:28:55idea as eat the rainbow, that by eating
1:28:57plants that have a lot of these
1:28:59molecules that are often produced by
1:29:01stressed plants, What do you mean
1:29:03stressed? stressed plants. So plants
1:29:05will be stressed just like we are. If
1:29:07you don't give them enough water, food,
1:29:09too much sunlight, not enough not enough
1:29:11sunlight, they in their defense, they
1:29:15they polyphenols.
1:29:16There's a whole bunch of them.
1:29:17Resveratrol, fisetin, quercetin, there's
1:29:20there's hundreds.
1:29:21Uh this one has um anthocyanidins,
1:29:24that's the color. These activate
1:29:27these adversity responses in our cells.
1:29:31The sirtuins will get activated by
1:29:33molecules in this blueberry. So if I eat
1:29:36this blueberry,
1:29:38those conductors that conduct some of
1:29:41the aging process you talked about,
1:29:43making sure my cells don't have an
1:29:44identity crisis,
1:29:46fixing the
1:29:48the the negative stress that's going on
1:29:50in my um
1:29:51in my cells, they will be
1:29:54benefited by me eating this blueberry?
1:29:57Yeah, it's it's like a a free hack,
1:29:59right? You can eat something that's
1:30:00yummy, but you're also getting the
1:30:03benefits
1:30:04by mimicking fasting and exercise in
1:30:06your food as well.
1:30:08The sirtuins don't just need NAD. That's
1:30:11the gas pedal. That's the petrol for
1:30:13those of you in the British world and
1:30:15Commonwealth. The fuel for sirtuins
1:30:19is NAD. The accelerator pedal
1:30:22are the polyphenols in fruits and
1:30:24vegetables like resveratrol, quercetin,
1:30:27which we know
1:30:29when you give them to sirtuins,
1:30:31they get hyperactivated. And when you
1:30:32say eat the rainbow, you mean eat
1:30:35colorful looking food.
1:30:37Because that's an an easy way to
1:30:38remember how to eat foods that have the
1:30:41most polyphenols.
1:30:43I'll give you a really good example,
1:30:44Steven.
1:30:45Serena put me onto green tea matcha.
1:30:48Right? So matcha tea, if you haven't
1:30:49tried it, uh I'm sure you've tried it,
1:30:51but those of you who haven't tried it, I
1:30:53highly recommend it. It It tastes great.
1:30:55The reason for it switching from coffee
1:30:58mainly to matcha in the morning for me
1:31:01is that it's full of polyphenols. Why is
1:31:04it full of polyphenols?
1:31:06It's not just because it's green tea,
1:31:07which is not naturally healthy, but the
1:31:09growers of those plants in Japan,
1:31:12typically,
1:31:13they shade the plants before they
1:31:15harvest.
1:31:16Shading the plants stresses them out.
1:31:18Plants need light. So they don't just
1:31:21make more chlorophyll, which produces
1:31:22the deep green color in the tea,
1:31:25but the polyphenols are super high. And
1:31:27through trial and error over thousands
1:31:29of years, the Japanese figured out that
1:31:31by shading the plants, giving them this
1:31:33mild hormetic stress,
1:31:36it makes them not just extra tasty, but
1:31:38extra healthy.
1:31:39Same with red wine, by the way. But the
1:31:41alcohol can
1:31:42be an issue. But absent alcohol,
1:31:45red wine
1:31:47is very good for you.
1:31:49Okay.
1:31:50Without the alcohol. It's unfortunate.
1:31:52You know, I I
1:31:53one of my papers in 1996 caused red wine
1:31:55sales to go up 30% and stayed up.
1:31:58I apologize
1:31:59for saying that red wine every day was
1:32:02healthy. Doctors were recommending it,
1:32:03remember? Yeah. But I now changed my
1:32:06mind. I have to
1:32:07say
1:32:08that I no longer believe having one
1:32:10glass of red wine every day is healthy
1:32:13in my opinion. And I've stopped drinking
1:32:15red wine every day.
1:32:16Instead, I take polyphenols from red
1:32:19wine and from vegetables either in a
1:32:21pill or in my food as a substitute
1:32:23because
1:32:24the evidence for alcohol is rather
1:32:26damning. There's a UK Biobank study and
1:32:28the UK looked at thousands of people's
1:32:31MRI scan of their brain who were
1:32:32drinking one glass of alcohol a day
1:32:35and there was a statistical difference
1:32:36between people that were drinking one
1:32:38glass a day and were not in terms of
1:32:40brain size and gray matter. Of course,
1:32:42the gray matter was tended to be smaller
1:32:44in those that drank even slightly. Hm.
1:32:47Yeah, I do [clears throat] um I actually
1:32:48have a matcha company. It's It was this
1:32:50year voted the fastest growing company
1:32:52in the UK.
1:32:53Um it's by some
1:32:55some founders that I invested in, um
1:32:57Levi, Teddy, and Marissa
1:33:00from Dragon's Den, and it's been an
1:33:01absolute unbelievable uh
1:33:04business, unbelievable. So tell us Where
1:33:06do Where do I get it? Japan. You get the
1:33:08matcha from Japan, but the company's
1:33:09called Perfect Tea. People know about
1:33:11it, um
1:33:11cuz I've talked about it before, but I
1:33:13didn't realize when I made the
1:33:15investment that matcha was considered by
1:33:18many to also be very healthy, especially
1:33:19a health alternative to certain energy
1:33:21products on the market that you get in
1:33:23cans that give you
1:33:25um
1:33:27I shan't get sued.
1:33:28>> [laughter]
1:33:29>> But the other thing that um uh the
1:33:30company I invested in is this one here
1:33:32called uh KetoneIQ.
1:33:34I'm the co-owner of this company as well
1:33:36and
1:33:36>> Yeah.
1:33:37Yeah, I love that uh love that company
1:33:39and the CEO uh
1:33:40Michael, good guy. What's your thoughts
1:33:43on exogenous ketones? Like drinking
1:33:45ketones?
1:33:46I do it. In fact, that I drink KetoneIQ
1:33:49before I
1:33:50do a podcast. Why?
1:33:52It improves my clarity, I find. Um I
1:33:55also believe the science and there have
1:33:58been multiple studies now in people.
1:34:00In some of the the science comes out of
1:34:02KetoneIQ, but also independent studies
1:34:05have shown that it's extremely healthy
1:34:06for the heart.
1:34:08And uh there's new studies that show for
1:34:10the brain as well it can be healthy. The
1:34:12brain uses ketones like
1:34:13beta-hydroxybutyrate or in that one,
1:34:15it's 1,3-butanediol.
1:34:17Um just a shot of that will give the
1:34:19brain food that it needs rather than the
1:34:21body having to make it. Um and you get,
1:34:23I believe, and I feel it, I get the
1:34:25clarity of fasting without being in a
1:34:27fasted state. But I also drink it when
1:34:29I'm fasting to give it the body the
1:34:31extra boost that it needs. Hm. And on
1:34:33this point of diet, one of the things
1:34:35that I was told by my doctor when I did
1:34:37a like one of those blood tests, was he
1:34:39cautioned me about bad cholesterol.
1:34:42He said to me something along the lines
1:34:44that I need to be careful about
1:34:46cholesterol.
1:34:47And there's been lots of conversation
1:34:49about cholesterol, good, bad.
1:34:51What's your perspective on this
1:34:53conversation around bad cholesterol,
1:34:54which has been thought to increase
1:34:56um
1:34:57certain foods have been thought to
1:34:58increase bad cholesterol,
1:35:00um which is very very detrimental to our
1:35:02health.
1:35:03I didn't realize there was a debate. At
1:35:05least in my world, there is no debate.
1:35:07Um if you're referring to do you want to
1:35:10get your LDL cholesterol as low as
1:35:13possible? Yeah.
1:35:15Definitely. Oh, really? Okay, so it's
1:35:17Yeah, I mean the science is irrefutable.
1:35:18There's thousands of people in studies.
1:35:21Now, I think I know what you were you
1:35:22were talking about. There are There are
1:35:23some
1:35:24stories that you need cholesterol in
1:35:27your brain and if you inhibit it, you
1:35:30might affect your brain function.
1:35:32Um you also need it for repair of
1:35:34arteries.
1:35:35But there's no evidence that that's a
1:35:37problem. In fact, it's it's a
1:35:38little-known fact that the brain doesn't
1:35:40use
1:35:41the cholesterol from the bloodstream. It
1:35:43makes its own. So I've actually been on
1:35:45a statin to lower my LDL since I was 30.
1:35:48Really?
1:35:49Well, I had high cholesterol. It's in my
1:35:51family.
1:35:52But I
1:35:54went to my doctor and I said, I want to
1:35:55go on these new drugs at the time,
1:35:57statins. And he said, "Why? You don't
1:35:59have heart disease yet." And I said,
1:36:01"Why would I wait?
1:36:03Get me on it. I want to be on it." And
1:36:05in those days, it was very weird to give
1:36:07someone
1:36:08a statin at age 30 with no evidence of
1:36:11heart disease.
1:36:12But as you know, I'm of the
1:36:15opinion that we shouldn't wait till we
1:36:17get diseases to treat them. We should
1:36:19preempt that and start early in life.
1:36:22And so yeah, I insisted with my doctor.
1:36:24Initially with statins, but on all of
1:36:26these things, I go in and I say,
1:36:28"I need you to prescribe me this test. I
1:36:30need this medicine."
1:36:31And eventually, after talking it over
1:36:34with him, he typically prescribes me
1:36:35something or gets me a test.
1:36:38But I've been fighting the system. And
1:36:40my doctor's at Harvard, so he's a good
1:36:42doctor, but conservative. The old way of
1:36:44doing medicine is
1:36:45if you're not sick, we're not going to
1:36:47give you a medicine, certainly not if
1:36:48you're young and healthy.
1:36:50Uh but that has to change.
1:36:52>> So you're saying that I should be on
1:36:52statins potentially? Well, what's your
1:36:54LDL level? Not I don't think it's great.
1:36:56I think I eat too much bacon or
1:36:57something.
1:36:58Well, we can talk about food and
1:37:00cholesterol cuz it depends whether you
1:37:01absorb cholesterol or not. We can test
1:37:04for that. But if you do absorb
1:37:05cholesterol
1:37:07more than most,
1:37:08I would say that you may want to change
1:37:09your diet at a minimum. On this plate
1:37:12here in front of us,
1:37:14I have the
1:37:16top five foods that I believe you think
1:37:18are great for reversing aging. Am I
1:37:21correct? Does that Does that These are
1:37:22great choices, yeah. So what are these
1:37:24and why? So we've already done the
1:37:25blueberries and we've you've explained
1:37:27to me about polyphenols and they're rich
1:37:28in them, which I understand. Mhm. And
1:37:31they're low in sugar, right?
1:37:32Well, they're not low in sugar, so don't
1:37:35eat a ton of them. A handful is fine
1:37:38um as a snack.
1:37:40It's also known that having too much
1:37:41sugar is bad for longevity. Okay. Keep
1:37:43your blood sugar level steady and low as
1:37:45much as you can. So don't eat too many
1:37:47of those. A better choice than
1:37:49blueberries would be something like
1:37:51matcha, which is not full of sugar. In
1:37:53fact, if you go to some of these chains
1:37:55that sell matcha and it tastes really
1:37:57sweet,
1:37:58you're going to reverse the effects of
1:38:00any polyphenols by drinking that much
1:38:02sugar. So I always have unsweetened
1:38:03matcha. Okay. So now we've got avocados
1:38:06here. Yeah. Yep. Avocados
1:38:08uh they're not so much known for their
1:38:09polyphenols, though they do have them.
1:38:12It's the type of fats, the
1:38:13polyunsaturated fats. They help with
1:38:16satiety, so you're not going to be as
1:38:17hungry.
1:38:18Uh so if you put that on your sandwich
1:38:20at lunch, you're not going to feel
1:38:22peckish.
1:38:23And they're uh highly anti-inflammatory
1:38:24as well. The molecules that are in there
1:38:26in the fats are very good for you.
1:38:29Extra virgin olive oil? Oh, yeah.
1:38:31Excellent. So the type of uh oils that
1:38:34are in there are very healthy. There's
1:38:36omega-9,
1:38:37which is also known to activate
1:38:39sirtuins.
1:38:40And again, if you have the right
1:38:43uh grower and this has been cold
1:38:45pressed, not too processed, and stressed
1:38:48before harvesting, you'll have huge
1:38:50amounts of polyphenols as well. I really
1:38:52hope that this is
1:38:54what the team said it was.
1:38:56>> [laughter]
1:38:57>> This has happened before I tried
1:38:58something and I thought it was something
1:39:00else, but it it was some Basically, it
1:39:02was a white powder and it was labeled
1:39:04with something for What could it be? A
1:39:06yellow liquid yellow liquid.
1:39:09Uh drinking Urine. No, I'm joking. It's
1:39:11not.
1:39:12>> [laughter]
1:39:12>> I can I don't think drinking urine uh is
1:39:15is longevity. But yeah, on and off I I
1:39:17do take a teaspoon of olive oil in the
1:39:19morning and mix it with resveratrol and
1:39:22polyphenol.
1:39:24Oh, okay. Interesting.
1:39:26Okay, so extra virgin olive good.
1:39:28Good. And there's a lot of evidence, not
1:39:30just molecular like me, but
1:39:32epidemiologically people that that have
1:39:34a lot of olive oil in their diet tend to
1:39:36have low inflammation and less disease.
1:39:39And we've got some nuts.
1:39:41Yep, nuts are good for many reasons.
1:39:42They're full of vitamins and minerals.
1:39:45Uh if there's a Brazil nut, you want to
1:39:46have one of those every day for the
1:39:48selenium, which is a very rare element
1:39:51in our food supply.
1:39:52And there's a recent study just last
1:39:54month showing that
1:39:55a lack of selenium um
1:39:58can be very deleterious.
1:40:00So, nuts are great as a snack. Be
1:40:02careful, they're full of calories
1:40:03though. So, if you're trying to lose
1:40:05weight
1:40:06and you're not exercising a lot, don't
1:40:08overeat on the nuts.
1:40:10And what
1:40:12Oh, my least favorite food, but
1:40:14nevertheless, I will eat them. This is a
1:40:16Brussels sprout.
1:40:19Um when I was a kid, Brussels sprouts
1:40:20tasted a lot more a lot worse, a lot
1:40:22bitter.
1:40:22>> [clears throat]
1:40:22>> True. Those are good
1:40:25um because they have polyphenols, but
1:40:26there's also another molecule in them
1:40:28called sulforaphane. It's actually the
1:40:30reason they taste terrible and smell
1:40:32terrible.
1:40:33Sulforaphane is what it sounds. It has a
1:40:36sulfur atom in it.
1:40:38And uh that gives it that rotten egg
1:40:41smell.
1:40:41But sulforaphane activates
1:40:44these hormesis pathways. There's one
1:40:45called NRF.
1:40:47And that is a stress response
1:40:50protein that sulforaphane activates.
1:40:52So, you actually by eating preferably
1:40:55relatively steamed, not fried to death,
1:40:58Brussels sprouts, you'll get
1:40:59sulforaphane. You can also take
1:41:01sulforaphane as a supplement if you
1:41:02don't like Brussels sprouts. You've used
1:41:04this word pulsing before. Uh you believe
1:41:06that the body should go through cycles
1:41:08of stress and recovery rather than
1:41:09receiving constant daily inputs. When
1:41:12you say pulsing, what you mean? What
1:41:14Give me an example of pulsing and why
1:41:15you need to do that.
1:41:16Well, there's there's a few examples.
1:41:18The first time I came across this result
1:41:21as a scientist was resveratrol. So,
1:41:23resveratrol is found in red wine among
1:41:25other things.
1:41:26And it's thought to give the health
1:41:28benefits of red wine. And we fed it to
1:41:30mice, fat mice, skinny mice, old mice,
1:41:33and it worked very well in the fat mice.
1:41:36It made them thinner. It made them live
1:41:38longer.
1:41:39It
1:41:41cured most of their diseases. They lived
1:41:42about I think it was 15 20% longer.
1:41:46Then we gave it to normal mice
1:41:48every day.
1:41:49And they lived a little bit longer, but
1:41:51not significantly.
1:41:52>> Resveratrol? Resveratrol. What we found
1:41:54to my surprise was this when we gave old
1:41:56mice resveratrol, not every day, but
1:41:58every second day,
1:42:00then they lived significantly longer.
1:42:03So, then I thought, well, maybe giving
1:42:05them a foreign substance every day is
1:42:08not good. Maybe there's some side effect
1:42:11that's counteracting the benefit. The
1:42:13other thing I want to mention, I said
1:42:14there's a few examples, another good one
1:42:16is metformin. Metformin has been shown
1:42:18to make athletes and bodybuilders and
1:42:21people who go to the gym,
1:42:23weightlifters um
1:42:24do less repetitions and as a result,
1:42:27their muscles are about 5% less compared
1:42:29to those that don't take metformin in
1:42:31size.
1:42:33I don't think it's molecular. I think
1:42:34it's because you feel a little bit
1:42:35weaker with metformin because it's
1:42:37actually interfering with your body's
1:42:39ability to make energy through
1:42:40mitochondria.
1:42:42Mitochondria, I think most people have
1:42:44heard of the little power packs
1:42:45living in our cells, originally bacteria
1:42:48that came into our bodies. The point is
1:42:50that by pulsing metformin, I think
1:42:53that's a better way to do it for
1:42:54longevity. You mean cycling it? So, like
1:42:56doing it every other day or Yeah. Okay.
1:42:59Yeah, I don't [clears throat] take If I
1:43:00take metformin or the natural
1:43:01equivalent, which is berberine, if you
1:43:04don't want to take the drug, you can
1:43:05take berberine,
1:43:06um that also activates this AMPK, this
1:43:09sirtuin
1:43:11sirtuin like pathway.
1:43:13Taking it every other day, I think is
1:43:14better. And particularly if you like to
1:43:16work out, don't take the metformin
1:43:19a few hours before you work out. Take it
1:43:21after or maybe skip it that day.
1:43:24I think that's a better approach.
1:43:26You know, every once in a while you come
1:43:27across a product that has such a huge
1:43:29impact on your life that you'd probably
1:43:31describe it as a game changer. And I
1:43:34would say
1:43:36for about 35 to 40% of my team, they
1:43:39would currently describe this product
1:43:41that I have in front of me called
1:43:43Ketone-IQ, which you can get at
1:43:45ketone.com,
1:43:47as a game changer. But the reason I
1:43:48became a co-owner of this company and
1:43:49the reason why they they now are a
1:43:50sponsor of this podcast is because one
1:43:53day when I came to work, there was a box
1:43:54of this stuff sat on my desk. I had no
1:43:56idea what it was. Lily in my team says
1:43:58that this company have been in touch.
1:44:00So, I went upstairs, tried it, and quite
1:44:02frankly, the rest is history. In terms
1:44:04of my focus, my energy levels, how I
1:44:06feel, how I work, how productive I am,
1:44:10game changer. So, if you want to give it
1:44:11a try, visit ketone.com/steven
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1:44:22first shot is completely free of charge.
1:44:25We have finally caved in. So many of you
1:44:28have asked us if we could bundle the
1:44:30conversation cards with the 1% diary.
1:44:32For those of you that don't know, every
1:44:34single time a guest sits here with me in
1:44:35the chair, they leave a question in the
1:44:37Diary of a CEO. And then I ask that
1:44:38question to the next guest. We don't
1:44:40release those questions in any
1:44:42environment other than on these
1:44:44incredible conversation cards. These
1:44:46have become a fantastic tool for people
1:44:48in relationships, people in teams, in
1:44:50big corporations, and also family
1:44:52members to connect with each other. With
1:44:53that, we also have the 1% diary, which
1:44:55is this incredible tool to change habits
1:44:57in your life. So many of you have asked
1:44:59if it was possible to buy both at the
1:45:01same time, especially people in big
1:45:04companies. So, what we've done is we've
1:45:06bundled them together, and you can buy
1:45:07both at the same time. And if you want
1:45:09to drive connection and instill habit
1:45:11change in your company, head to the
1:45:13diary.com to inquire, and our team will
1:45:15be in touch. We talked about exercise
1:45:17earlier. On page 102 of your book, you
1:45:20talk about how there's a CDC-funded
1:45:23study that found people who exercise
1:45:24regularly, about 30 minutes of jogging 5
1:45:27days a week, have telomeres that look 10
1:45:31years younger than sedentary people,
1:45:33people that just sit around all day and
1:45:34do don't do much exercise.
1:45:38Which is pretty remarkable.
1:45:40How do we know it's the exercise and not
1:45:41something else? Like how were we able to
1:45:43establish causation there? Yeah, we
1:45:44don't. We don't. Unfortunately, all of
1:45:46these association studies just lead to a
1:45:49need to do placebo-controlled or at
1:45:51least controlled trials in people.
1:45:53So, we don't know for sure, speaking
1:45:55like a scientist.
1:45:57But there have been studies where people
1:45:59are told to do exercise and those that
1:46:02are told to sit. And then you can
1:46:03compare telomere length, and that has
1:46:05been shown. So, that's a much better
1:46:07evidence of causation.
1:46:09But you're right. When you see an
1:46:10association, it could be that people who
1:46:12do exercise also eat
1:46:14well and drink matcha. Sleep better.
1:46:16Exactly. So, you have to be careful
1:46:17interpreting these association studies
1:46:19always.
1:46:21But when you've got a placebo-controlled
1:46:22trial or you know, these these studies
1:46:25that are called
1:46:26uh prospective, not retrospective
1:46:28studies, then they're better. So,
1:46:30telomeres
1:46:32uh the ends of chromosomes that get
1:46:33shortened as you as you get older.
1:46:35Um we used to use them really as a good
1:46:37indicator of age, biological age. Now we
1:46:40use the epigenome and the DNA
1:46:42methylation chemicals as a better clock.
1:46:44And then cold plunges and saunas. Yeah,
1:46:46let's get to those. I've got a sauna in
1:46:48the house, but I never use it, to be
1:46:49honest. You should. But if you if you
1:46:51tell me I should, maybe I'll
1:46:52>> We should actually jump in there after
1:46:54this. Your girlfriend's still here,
1:46:55David So Less. She can come, too.
1:46:57[laughter]
1:46:58Uh
1:46:58So, saunas are, in my mind, it it's not
1:47:01even a question. They are proven to be
1:47:03beneficial for multiple reasons, heart
1:47:05disease and even long-term mortality.
1:47:09What's going on in the sauna in the
1:47:10heat? Anyone who says they know is
1:47:12lying. We don't know, but one theory
1:47:15that I like, and it also goes back to
1:47:17yeast cells, there are what are called
1:47:19heat shock proteins that come on and
1:47:21defend the cell when they the cell
1:47:23senses heat. And it may be that these
1:47:26heat shock defense proteins called HSC
1:47:28HSPs
1:47:29HSPs
1:47:30uh come on when we breathe in this moist
1:47:33hot air. The moisture actually seems to
1:47:35help as well.
1:47:36And in many studies, mostly on Finnish
1:47:39men, businessmen, uh those that go into
1:47:42their home saunas and
1:47:44the majority of homes in Finland do have
1:47:46saunas,
1:47:47so they can do these studies pretty
1:47:49easily.
1:47:50The bottom line is that those that
1:47:51didn't do regular {quote} sauna bathing
1:47:55uh tended to die earlier
1:47:57uh in particular from heart disease and
1:47:58cardiovascular events than than those
1:48:01that did regular sauna bathing. So, I'm
1:48:04I'm a big advocate of sauna. I don't
1:48:05know if I have one in my house, but I do
1:48:07have a really hot steam shower, which I
1:48:09use regularly every day. And is there a
1:48:11difference between the steam room and
1:48:13the sauna in terms of the impact here? I
1:48:15think a sauna is better cuz it gets
1:48:17hotter.
1:48:18Yeah, and I I would have a sauna if I
1:48:19had my choice. And the cold plunge?
1:48:22Not a lot of data. There's a lot of
1:48:23theory that
1:48:25again, hormesis, adversity, feeling
1:48:28better.
1:48:29There's there's some evidence that it
1:48:30can actually help with muscle repair
1:48:32after workouts,
1:48:34but I think we need a lot more research
1:48:36in that regard. But then nevertheless,
1:48:38I used to do it
1:48:39um before I was so busy and traveling
1:48:41the world.
1:48:42Um and I certainly feel better. So, even
1:48:44if I don't didn't live longer because of
1:48:46it, I definitely had more mental clarity
1:48:48and I felt better in general. But if But
1:48:50if you were if you were prioritizing all
1:48:52of the things we've talked about so far
1:48:54and you had to pick one,
1:48:56Do I have to pick one? Cuz you need more
1:48:57than one. But Just Just in terms of like
1:49:00the most important one. That's maybe the
1:49:02first domino. Yeah. I would say that
1:49:05that
1:49:06a combination of what the easiest
1:49:08biggest impact you can have. Combine
1:49:10that. That would be skipping meals.
1:49:13Skipping meals. Skipping meals. And then
1:49:15a close second would be
1:49:17exercise
1:49:18that includes losing your breath
1:49:20for at least 5 minutes, three times a
1:49:22week.
1:49:23So, what do I mean by losing your breath
1:49:25for 5 minutes? When you couldn't carry
1:49:27out a conversation easily. That you're
1:49:29panting.
1:49:30If you're not panting and you're just
1:49:31lifting weights, that's not going to
1:49:33have the the kind of benefit. Why?
1:49:36We don't know.
1:49:37But, it's been shown that the health
1:49:39benefits
1:49:40and those that live long
1:49:43tend to do a lot more aerobic exercise,
1:49:45not just weights. But, both are
1:49:46important for mobility, strength,
1:49:50falling in older age, and hormones like
1:49:52testosterone.
1:49:54Red light therapy, um
1:49:56the red light masks. Yeah.
1:49:59Um Red light saunas.
1:50:00>> At first I was skeptical, uh but I've
1:50:01done the research on the research. Um
1:50:05and it looks
1:50:06reasonable. I I use a red light cap on
1:50:09my head to preserve my hairline.
1:50:12And uh there's some now good evidence
1:50:14that the mitochondria, which are the
1:50:16power packs and
1:50:17a lot of
1:50:18good things come from mitochondria.
1:50:20They actually are rejuvenated. Either
1:50:22rejuvenated or enhanced by this certain
1:50:26wavelengths of red light. You have to
1:50:27get the wavelength right.
1:50:29But, uh it's not BS. It sounds like BS,
1:50:31right? Oh, you shine light on your skin
1:50:33and it gets better or you get your hair.
1:50:35But, uh
1:50:36I think that there's good evidence now
1:50:37that that it's not BS. And in terms of
1:50:40the supplement stack that you take every
1:50:42day, Mhm. if I was to look at the on a
1:50:46if a on a
1:50:47great week
1:50:49where you just did everything right,
1:50:50what would your supplement stack look
1:50:52like? And I know this evolves over time,
1:50:53so I'm very keen to hear what it is
1:50:55right now. Yeah. Well, that that would
1:50:57be another podcast uh to go through each
1:50:59one of the things and
1:51:00>> Well, I I I travel with Serena with the
1:51:02with a a little little case. Have you
1:51:05got it? I've got it here. Can I see it?
1:51:07Well, no. It's not in It's not in the
1:51:08studio. Oh, okay.
1:51:10>> I didn't bring it with me. Can you send
1:51:11me a photo?
1:51:12Sure. Uh I couldn't publicly share it
1:51:15because it it would be posted all over
1:51:16the internet. Would things go crazy.
1:51:18But, I can tell you the the main things.
1:51:21Why would it go crazy on the internet,
1:51:22would you think? Cuz it's cuz it's cuz
1:51:23there's a lot in there?
1:51:25Well, some of the things are
1:51:26experimental and I wouldn't want people
1:51:29to
1:51:30>> to go nuts about it. Cuz it's still
1:51:31experimental.
1:51:32I'm okay experimenting on myself. I'm
1:51:34not okay advocating for things that are
1:51:37not yet proven or known to be absolutely
1:51:39safe. Okay. So, give me the ones that
1:51:41you know to be safe. Uh well,
1:51:44the NMN we've covered. Resveratrol.
1:51:48And either metformin or berberine.
1:51:51Yeah. Okay.
1:51:53Spermidine. Spermidine? Yeah. And the
1:51:55quantities are either on the screen or
1:51:57in my book if you want to know exactly.
1:51:59Is that what it sounds like? Uh yes.
1:52:02>> [laughter]
1:52:02>> Yes, but
1:52:03you get it these days not from sperm or
1:52:06semen, but you get it from wheat germ
1:52:08typically. Plants. It used to come from
1:52:11sperm? Well, that's how it was
1:52:12discovered. It was crystallized by
1:52:14I believe Anthony von Leeuwenhoek, the
1:52:17one of the first microscopists and
1:52:19microbiologists.
1:52:20Spermidine, the reason that I take it is
1:52:22that it extends the lifespan of every
1:52:24animal that has been given to,
1:52:25from
1:52:27worms to to mice. And it's a very safe
1:52:29molecule. So, that I always weigh up the
1:52:31downsides versus the upsides. And if
1:52:33there's no downsides
1:52:35and I can afford it, which, you know, I
1:52:37work really hard that so I can afford
1:52:39it. And I prioritize my health, then
1:52:42I'd take it.
1:52:44And if you're wondering how it works, it
1:52:46seems to stimulate autophagy, recycling
1:52:48of proteins. It helps with the fasting.
1:52:51Uh but, I also have a some evidence
1:52:53uh that it delays the epigenetic
1:52:56information loss. So, it's slowing down
1:52:57the scratching of the record.
1:52:59Spermidine. All right. So, um I'm also
1:53:02um
1:53:03keen on glycine. Glycine is a very safe
1:53:06substance. It's an amino acid. One of
1:53:09the 20 amino acids that
1:53:11makes proteins.
1:53:12And I actually did a PhD on glycine. I
1:53:14was one of the first people to
1:53:17perhaps the first person to clone genes
1:53:19that process glycine. So, I know know it
1:53:21well.
1:53:22For some reason, when you give animals
1:53:24and, for instance, mice
1:53:26grams of glycine. So, I take about 5 g
1:53:29of glycine most days.
1:53:31Uh they live longer.
1:53:33Though, it's still speculation as to
1:53:34why.
1:53:35What I think is going on is that glycine
1:53:38controls what's called one carbon
1:53:40metabolism. And not wanting to bore the
1:53:43heck out of everyone who's listening to
1:53:45me.
1:53:46Glycine and one carbon metabolism
1:53:48controls methylation of DNA.
1:53:51Getting back to the little chemicals
1:53:53that are on this DNA molecule that
1:53:54control the information.
1:53:57I wouldn't be surprised if
1:54:00by eating a lot of glycine every day,
1:54:02I'm slowing down this identity crisis
1:54:05you called it.
1:54:06Nevertheless, it's very safe and again
1:54:08falls into the same category as
1:54:09spermidine.
1:54:10No downside. Can afford it.
1:54:13Why not?
1:54:15Is there anything else?
1:54:17Yeah, there's a lot. Um
1:54:20because I love you and your listeners,
1:54:21uh
1:54:22let's see. I'll I'll I'll I'll reveal
1:54:24one more. Um
1:54:26There are there are some basics that I
1:54:28do that are if you're not doing them, I
1:54:29think
1:54:37[snorts]
1:57:14is is very wise. Make
1:57:16>> Now, it can be uncomfortable for some
1:57:18people to take it because it gives
1:57:20flushing. You get little tingling in
1:57:21your skin. And if you're not used to it
1:57:24or you don't take it with an aspirin,
1:57:25you'll feel hot, almost like menopause,
1:57:27apparently. And so, I I I take it. I
1:57:29build up to it. I'm taking half a gram.
1:57:32Some people take a gram. And that's one
1:57:34of the few things
1:57:35that's been known to bring down levels
1:57:37of LP little A.
1:57:39There are drugs that are in development,
1:57:40even in phase three, that look
1:57:41promising. But, until they're on the
1:57:43market,
1:57:44I'm taking niacin instead. What's the
1:57:46best uh treatment you've discovered for
1:57:47hair loss? Hair loss, hair graying, that
1:57:50kind of thing.
1:57:51>> Yeah. So, my father went bald before
1:57:53before 30, like completely bald. All
1:57:55right? And it completely almost
1:57:57completely gray by the time he was 40.
1:57:59So, I'm super lucky. All right? I
1:58:01thought I'd be bald at 30. I was pretty
1:58:03worried about it.
1:58:04So, I've been doing the right things
1:58:07intentionally.
1:58:08So, what I do is this red light cap.
1:58:11When I can. I don't travel with it, but
1:58:13uh when I can, that's for 6 minutes.
1:58:16Stick it on there. Proven? Is there
1:58:18evidence Yeah, it's proven. It's proven
1:58:19to slow. It doesn't necessarily give you
1:58:22your hair back.
1:58:23But, when it comes to hair loss, don't
1:58:25wait till you see the hair loss. That
1:58:27can be too late.
1:58:29Okay? You're you're good. I'm okay.
1:58:30>> You're good. But, I know a lot of men
1:58:32are concerned. It's understandable.
1:58:35I'm taking a
1:58:36hormone mimetic to stop
1:58:39uh DHT, which is the form of
1:58:41testosterone that
1:58:43leads to men related hair loss.
1:58:46All right? So, one of the reasons that
1:58:47women don't lose hair as much as men is
1:58:49this DHT. So, I'm I'm blocking that. So,
1:58:52so let me get that straight. You're not
1:58:53taking testosterone? No.
1:58:56Because that's going to
1:58:58accelerate your hair loss. Well, it can
1:59:00if it raises DHT. The best way to raise
1:59:02testosterone naturally is to build up
1:59:04muscle, especially your legs, your back,
1:59:06big muscles.
1:59:07That's another reason to work out and
1:59:08maintain muscle mass, which I need to do
1:59:10more of. You look like you're in good
1:59:12shape already. But yeah, anyone who is
1:59:14losing testosterone is is below a level
1:59:16of about 400, highly recommend hitting
1:59:19the gym, it'll go back up.
1:59:21Do you recommend men taking testosterone
1:59:23replacement? Um well, I'm a scientist,
1:59:26so I don't recommend drugs, but
1:59:28um I don't think it's necessary for most
1:59:29men, and I would start with
1:59:32uh reducing stress, sleeping well,
1:59:34exercising, building up muscle mass.
1:59:36Uh and then if that doesn't work,
1:59:38yeah, talk to your physician. There
1:59:40There is not a big downside, there's not
1:59:41a risk of cancer to taking testosterone.
1:59:44Um one of my good friends has done many
1:59:46clinical trials with testosterone. So, I
1:59:48think there's a use of use for it,
1:59:51but it doesn't lead to longevity. That
1:59:53was
1:59:53very clear. So, for for health reasons,
1:59:57yes, for longevity,
1:59:59no need.
2:00:00What are the What are some of the
2:00:02You know, when I started watching your
2:00:03your videos many years ago and listening
2:00:04to your podcast and following you on
2:00:06Twitter,
2:00:07I I wondered, you know, there's so much
2:00:09information you can put out there cuz
2:00:10you're a scientist and scientists are
2:00:11very rigorous, but you also must have a
2:00:13set of
2:00:15really
2:00:17interesting predictions or visions of
2:00:20the what the future looks like that you
2:00:22don't probably always talk about because
2:00:24they're not scientific, they're not
2:00:25based on anything. They are maybe first
2:00:27principles in your own mind that formed
2:00:30where you go, actually I think the world
2:00:31might look like this and I think it
2:00:32might happen then. I'd love to hear
2:00:33about some of these.
2:00:35Yeah. I understand they're not rigorous
2:00:37and I understand I'm happy to. I
2:00:39What happens to me cuz I'm a scientist
2:00:41and you know, I'm part of this ivory
2:00:43tower
2:00:44at Harvard where we can only stick to
2:00:46facts, and if you go beyond that, it's
2:00:49it's a it's a crime. And I've been
2:00:51criticized for that. Um but I think, you
2:00:53know, as humans, life's interesting when
2:00:55it comes to predicting the future.
2:00:58And like you, I'm very curious, where is
2:01:00humanity headed?
2:01:02I see a future as different from this
2:01:04world as our world is from 200 years
2:01:08ago, and that will happen in our
2:01:09lifetime.
2:01:11Different in that 100 years ago or more,
2:01:13if you had an infected splinter, there's
2:01:15a reasonable chance you could die.
2:01:18Childbirth, you could die.
2:01:20Smallpox.
2:01:21These are things that we don't generally
2:01:23worry about anymore, and the idea would
2:01:25be abhorrent.
2:01:27In the future, hopefully within our
2:01:28lifetimes,
2:01:30there will be a time when we look back
2:01:31at today's medicine, when you could go
2:01:33blind and there was nothing you could
2:01:35do. You could break your back and never
2:01:37walk again. We will look back at today
2:01:41and say, how did those people get
2:01:42through life? What a horrible world they
2:01:45lived in. That I believe is is the
2:01:47future that humanity is headed for,
2:01:50and way faster than most people realize
2:01:52is coming.
2:01:53The kind of breakthroughs that we've
2:01:54discussed today, most people have never
2:01:56heard about. The fact that we are aiming
2:01:58and already do cure blindness in
2:02:00monkeys.
2:02:02Like pure blindness. This isn't just,
2:02:04oh, I can't see a little bit. These are
2:02:05completely blind animals.
2:02:08Um and that they can see again in a
2:02:10matter of 6 weeks. This is remarkable
2:02:13stuff, right?
2:02:14And if it works this year in people,
2:02:18it's going to be a really big deal cuz
2:02:21if for the first time we'll if we have
2:02:22we'll have shown in humans
2:02:24that the body can be reset safely.
2:02:28And if the eye is just the beginning,
2:02:29right? The future looks like we can
2:02:32rejuvenate potentially any tissue.
2:02:35If you have a bad liver, we'll make it
2:02:37young again. Bad brain, you've lost your
2:02:39memory, we'll give you those memories
2:02:40back again.
2:02:42We do this in mice in my lab all the
2:02:43time.
2:02:44It's not even a big deal in my lab
2:02:46anymore to reverse the age of tissues in
2:02:48an animal in an animal
2:02:51in a matter of weeks.
2:02:52That is coming for humanity.
2:02:54Hopefully, initially this year, but even
2:02:57if that doesn't work, it's only a
2:02:58technical issue. We'll solve that. You
2:03:01might be wondering, how do we get the
2:03:03rejuvenative genes into the body?
2:03:06And what we do is we use a package
2:03:08that uh
2:03:10is able to get into cells.
2:03:12And this is a package that uh resembles
2:03:14a virus. It's not a virus, it doesn't
2:03:16cause disease, it's not infectious, but
2:03:19we package our three genes inside the
2:03:21virus
2:03:23uh virus-like uh substance,
2:03:26and we close it up. We just made a bunch
2:03:29of this in Europe for the clinical trial
2:03:31that's going to begin.
2:03:33Just making this is difficult. It took
2:03:35us about a year to make it, and was
2:03:37about I think it was
2:03:40$10 million.
2:03:42Right now, it's expensive to do this.
2:03:44Eventually, it will be cheap, and
2:03:45eventually it will be a cheap pill,
2:03:46hopefully.
2:03:48We have
2:03:49trillions of these molecules, these
2:03:51delivery vehicles, that will go
2:03:54See, pass me the eye. We're getting back
2:03:56this eye model.
2:03:58These delivery vehicles with our three
2:04:00genes will be delivered, obviously these
2:04:03are microscopic, they go in through the
2:04:05eye
2:04:06with a with a
2:04:07quick jab.
2:04:08All right. It sounds horrible, but a
2:04:10quick jab into the eye, if you're blind,
2:04:12who cares? Yeah. It's 2 seconds of
2:04:14discomfort. Now you've got the little
2:04:16virus,
2:04:18which I'm going to break off the stand
2:04:19here. The little virus, there's billions
2:04:21of them, trillions of them in the eye.
2:04:23Now they infect specifically the nerves
2:04:25at the back of the eye in the retina.
2:04:27How do they know what to infect? Because
2:04:29the these little balls on the on the
2:04:31package direct it specifically, by
2:04:33design, by our lab's design,
2:04:36just to those nerves at the back of the
2:04:37eye.
2:04:38If we change these little proteins on
2:04:40the surface, we can send it to the liver
2:04:43or to the brain. This is the zip code,
2:04:45the post code for where we want to send
2:04:47our three genes. Mhm.
2:04:50But this one's designed for the eye.
2:04:52It's called an AAV2.
2:04:55Um
2:04:56long story short,
2:04:57these are ready to go into humans. We're
2:04:59just waiting for FDA approval to inject
2:05:02it into a blind patient
2:05:04to see what happens. And then inside
2:05:06there is the protein which is going to
2:05:09fix Yeah.
2:05:10>> [clears throat]
2:05:11>> Well, actually,
2:05:12not the protein. What actually happens
2:05:15is when this goes in the eye, this what
2:05:17I'm So, what I'm holding up looks like a
2:05:18little ball with red
2:05:20dots on it.
2:05:21Um it looks like a virus, but it's not,
2:05:23it's a package. Now, what happens is
2:05:26these trillions of little
2:05:28packages go into the fluid. Now they
2:05:30they dock with the cells at the back of
2:05:32the eye. They get inside the cell and
2:05:34they open up, and out comes this little
2:05:37package that we've made.
2:05:40This is a protein package. Each one of
2:05:43these little dots on this
2:05:45little s-
2:05:46soccer ball is a protein.
2:05:49That's now inside the cell.
2:05:51This is a little spaceship that opens
2:05:54up,
2:05:55and out of that
2:05:58comes the DNA.
2:05:59This is a loop of DNA just here.
2:06:03These are This is the DNA package that
2:06:05we put in there.
2:06:06Trillions of them. One of them gets into
2:06:08one cell,
2:06:10and now stays in that cell forever.
2:06:12So, that person
2:06:14or the monkey or the mouse that we've
2:06:15treated
2:06:17becomes a transgenic person with genes
2:06:20that we've put in permanently into the
2:06:23back of the eye. But they don't do
2:06:24anything until we tell them to.
2:06:27That's now just sitting there.
2:06:30We've engineered it uniquely and
2:06:32patented the ability
2:06:34to turn on those three genes whenever we
2:06:36want and turn them off again whenever we
2:06:38want. How?
2:06:40We give them doxycycline. It's used for
2:06:43malaria, it's used for Lyme disease, and
2:06:46we're using it in this case to turn
2:06:48these genes on.
2:06:50So, the patients will get their
2:06:51doxycycline.
2:06:53Uh we'll give them some probiotics to
2:06:54restore hopefully we'll we'll restore
2:06:56their microbiome, of course.
2:06:58But
2:06:59the idea is that
2:07:01this doxycycline will turn on these
2:07:03three genes for about 8 weeks.
2:07:06And the doctor in charge of the clinical
2:07:08trial, one of them's at Harvard, good
2:07:11friend of mine, he'll measure the vision
2:07:12of the first patient before the
2:07:14treatment, and of course, regular
2:07:16intervals.
2:07:17And if all goes well, because we're
2:07:19treating patients, not healthy
2:07:21volunteers in the first trial,
2:07:23we should know within a either one or
2:07:25two patients if it works.
2:07:28Because we're not drawing a graph.
2:07:30It's either going to work or it isn't.
2:07:32The patient gets better eyesight or they
2:07:34don't.
2:07:36So, by this time next year, we will know
2:07:38if it works or not. Maybe even sooner.
2:07:41But publicly, we may know
2:07:44if this works. And if it works, the eye
2:07:46is just the beginning.
2:07:47So, the first disease to treat is
2:07:49glaucoma, pressure in the eye. There's
2:07:50also a stroke in the eye, which is
2:07:52becoming more prevalent in the world
2:07:54because of the Ozempic and other weight
2:07:56loss drugs, and people go blind
2:07:58overnight, and there's nothing that you
2:07:59can do for those patients.
2:08:01They're blind, and their other eye
2:08:03cannot can go a few months later. It's
2:08:04very scary for them.
2:08:06These are young people. Friend of mine
2:08:08had it happen. It's pretty common these
2:08:09days, about 30,000 people each year in
2:08:11the US alone.
2:08:13But these two diseases are the
2:08:14beginning. If they work, then we go on
2:08:16to macular degeneration, which is the
2:08:18largest cause of blindness besides
2:08:19glaucoma.
2:08:21Then we'll go on to liver,
2:08:23then maybe the lung,
2:08:25the skin, and we'll keep going from
2:08:27there. We'll make different packages for
2:08:29different organs, and ultimately,
2:08:32we want to rejuvenate the entire body.
2:08:34The company
2:08:36um people might want to know, it's
2:08:37called Life Biosciences, it's a private
2:08:38company. But Life Biosciences, I'm very
2:08:41proud of the scientists who are doing
2:08:42this work. Their goal is to really make
2:08:45the world's first age reversal medicine
2:08:48as a pill, and we're working with them
2:08:49using AI to find that molecule. And when
2:08:53do you think you might have it, if you
2:08:54had to forecast? Uh
2:08:56>> The world's first age reversal molecule
2:08:59that's
2:09:00Well, we have right now we're down to
2:09:02three molecules that work and we're
2:09:05using AI to make all of those three in
2:09:08one
2:09:09and we're
2:09:10we're in the middle of it. We screened
2:09:11about 8 billion candidates
2:09:14using AI
2:09:16and right now we're doing the bench lab
2:09:18work to see if one of them or more
2:09:21works.
2:09:22And for us to put that in humans is
2:09:24still a number of years away,
2:09:26but we should know within a year or two
2:09:29if we're right because we'll we'll put
2:09:32them into mice and if they get younger
2:09:35and live longer, then we're really onto
2:09:37something important. And the reason that
2:09:39I want to make a pill
2:09:41is is important for the planet.
2:09:44These drugs are expensive. I mentioned
2:09:4610 million bucks to do a clinical trial.
2:09:48These are expensive. They could cost
2:09:50over $100,000 per treatment. That's not
2:09:53going to be for everybody.
2:09:54It's worth it if you're blind. It's
2:09:56worth it for the country to cure
2:09:57blindness.
2:09:59But
2:10:00what if it could be instead of $100,000
2:10:03$100? That's what I'm working for. I
2:10:05want to democratize this technology so
2:10:07anyone even in Kenya can take these
2:10:10medicines.
2:10:11David, what's the most important thing
2:10:13we haven't talked about that we should
2:10:14have talked about as it relates to the
2:10:17future longevity
2:10:20and these adjacent subjects? There's a
2:10:22lot of things and there's there's
2:10:23pushback. There's philosophical pushback
2:10:25from
2:10:27religious folks who don't believe that
2:10:29we should play God
2:10:30and I would I would argue to them that
2:10:33we've been doing that as a species for
2:10:35thousands of years, changing our
2:10:36biology, taking medicines, plant
2:10:39medicines originally.
2:10:41What about this room is natural?
2:10:44Right, we change our world as species.
2:10:46Aging is no different. In fact, it's
2:10:48crazy that we haven't worked on it
2:10:49sooner. Do you believe in God?
2:10:52So the the the the short answer is I
2:10:55believe that there is something beyond
2:11:00reality as we see it. You know, I study
2:11:03physics. Physics is so weird and anyone
2:11:06who says they understand the quantum
2:11:08world or quantum mechanics is I think is
2:11:10also lying. There's it's so bizarre.
2:11:13Quantum entanglement, simulation theory.
2:11:16So I believe that that this this is not
2:11:19a solid desk. I believe that there are
2:11:21multiple versions of it, maybe infinite
2:11:23number of versions of this desk. We've
2:11:25got four.
2:11:26You do? We've got four of them. Yeah,
2:11:29then it's four times infinity.
2:11:32I also I also believe that
2:11:34consciousness is the ultimate goal of
2:11:37the universe.
2:11:38That consciousness creates reality. We
2:11:41know that from particle physics. The
2:11:44observation of particles changes their
2:11:46reality even retrospectively in time
2:11:49apparently. When you look at them? When
2:11:51you observe them. You can use a camera
2:11:53or you can use your eyes. Usually it's a
2:11:55detector, but the the
2:11:57detection and then conscious
2:12:00interpretation of a particle's behavior
2:12:02changes how it acts.
2:12:06So does does this mean that there's
2:12:08something behind this wall unless we
2:12:09look at it? Maybe.
2:12:11Maybe. Maybe observation creates
2:12:13reality. We know it influences reality.
2:12:16So I don't know if I would call it God,
2:12:19but I'm definitely spiritual
2:12:21in a scientific way.
2:12:22>> Has it ever dawned on you that actually
2:12:25you might be
2:12:27the only real person here and actually
2:12:29we only we all rendered when you walked
2:12:31in David. Mhm. I wasn't here before.
2:12:34Yeah.
2:12:35Uh well, that's even plausible.
2:12:37But that would be very narcissistic.
2:12:40>> [laughter]
2:12:42>> I I actually I just rendered when you
2:12:44walked in the house today.
2:12:45I I I
2:12:46I don't exist. [clears throat] Well,
2:12:47there's no way of proving it right or
2:12:49wrong actually.
2:12:51Um I think most kids think that
2:12:52initially,
2:12:53>> [laughter]
2:12:53>> but then you then you realize it's
2:12:55probably the least likely explanation
2:12:57for the world. But there is some there
2:12:59is some truth to that in terms of
2:13:01physics.
2:13:02Do you think we're in a simulation?
2:13:05I think there's a better than 50% chance
2:13:08that this is simulated.
2:13:12So you think it's probably a simulation?
2:13:14That's another way I think it's probably
2:13:16a simulation.
2:13:17Certainly the world that we think it is
2:13:19is not the world we think it is. How can
2:13:21you be so sure?
2:13:22Because when you get down to measuring
2:13:24it at the fundamental level, reality
2:13:26doesn't exist the way we think it does.
2:13:31Things are created, things change
2:13:33just by human observation.
2:13:36That is the weirdest thing that you
2:13:37could ever find in science. I don't know
2:13:39why we aren't talking about it more.
2:13:42This reality cannot be true if
2:13:45me looking at this DNA molecule here
2:13:47affects the the the actual particles
2:13:50inside it. So I'm I might be sort of
2:13:52projecting it.
2:13:54Yeah, you create realities of particles
2:13:57at least, maybe even macroscopic things.
2:14:01Just by existing and having
2:14:02consciousness
2:14:04and having eyes
2:14:06and sensing it.
2:14:09How does the particle know that you've
2:14:10seen it?
2:14:13How do we know that that's true? How do
2:14:15we know that particles change based on
2:14:17observation? There's a classic double
2:14:19slit experiment as formally called
2:14:22that was done I believe in the mid-20th
2:14:24century, maybe earlier.
2:14:26If you fire two particles through two
2:14:28slits in a board,
2:14:30the board blocks the particles. So you
2:14:32can fire electrons, that's a good
2:14:33example. Electrons, if you're observing
2:14:36them, will go straight through the slits
2:14:38and hit a backboard that detects it. Can
2:14:40be film, can be a detector.
2:14:43And it'll get two slits behind.
2:14:45Make sense, right? That's our reality.
2:14:47Two slits.
2:14:48Particles go through. If they hit the
2:14:49board, they don't go to the detector. If
2:14:51they go through one slit, they'll land
2:14:53on the left. If they go through the
2:14:54right slit, they'll land on land on the
2:14:56right. Yeah. That's our reality. I'll
2:14:57put a picture on the screen for anyone
2:14:59that's following. Yeah.
2:15:01If you don't look at it, the particles
2:15:03can behave
2:15:05differently. They now behave not like a
2:15:07particle, but by a wave as a wave and
2:15:10they interact with each other
2:15:12and they don't make two slits, they make
2:15:14multiple lines on the detector.
2:15:16Most of them are in the middle, so the
2:15:18heaviest bands
2:15:20are in the middle, but they also form
2:15:22other bands. The bands go on essentially
2:15:25infinite, but most of it's you know,
2:15:26within a range.
2:15:28Why? Because they're they're interfering
2:15:30with each other like waves.
2:15:32But here's the thing.
2:15:34The mere act of looking at where they
2:15:36landed, if you detecting that, you'll
2:15:40get two
2:15:41slits at the back, two two lines. If
2:15:44you're not detecting it,
2:15:46it'll form the pattern. I'm so confused
2:15:48because
2:15:50how would you know unless you were
2:15:51looking at both?
2:15:53Do you know what I mean? Do you Do Do
2:15:55Does that Does that question make sense?
2:15:56Yeah, well you can observe it in real
2:15:59time and you can observe it
2:16:00retroactively. Yeah. Oh okay, so if you
2:16:02look at it after It it
2:16:05generally is
2:16:07not affected. But they've done
2:16:09experiments where there is some element
2:16:11seemingly of retroactive, but generally
2:16:14we're not going back in time. In fact,
2:16:15people debate whether that's truly
2:16:17measuring back in time.
2:16:19So let's leave retroactive aside. If you
2:16:22measure it in real time,
2:16:24you'll see two.
2:16:25So the world knows you're looking at it.
2:16:27Particles know you're looking at it.
2:16:29>> With an eye or with a Can you do it like
2:16:31a camera or is it
2:16:32>> Yeah, camera, eye.
2:16:33>> It just knows it's being observed.
2:16:34>> Yeah, but if you develop the film later
2:16:37and you weren't watching it at the time,
2:16:39it's going to have affected the world in
2:16:41stripes.
2:16:43Multiple stripes.
2:16:46So from that we conclude that
2:16:49we know nothing about reality. Right.
2:16:53Because everything I'm observing is
2:16:55changing
2:16:56by the mere fact that I've observed it.
2:16:58Yeah. And so does an octopus observe?
2:17:01Does it affect Somebody should do that.
2:17:03Put an
2:17:04an octopus in an experiment.
2:17:05Yeah.
2:17:07I think octopi, if they are conscious,
2:17:09probably would also affect reality.
2:17:13And I they they'd be conscious. They
2:17:14they they'd know they're detecting lines
2:17:16on a page.
2:17:17>> So what is all this stuff?
2:17:20That is
2:17:21one of the biggest questions of all
2:17:22time.
2:17:24What is the world made of? Why are we
2:17:25here? I think the next big question is
2:17:29do we have to age?
2:17:30And I think that other species around
2:17:32the universe have figured this out
2:17:33before we have. They've got to be other
2:17:36species
2:17:37type of life forms that have figured
2:17:39this out. I think it's the goal of every
2:17:41living form that's conscious to work on
2:17:43this. We've just been a little slow to
2:17:46figure it out. And do you believe in
2:17:48aliens?
2:17:49I don't believe in them, but I believe
2:17:51in mathematical probabilities and
2:17:54you know, knowing
2:17:56the odds and the number of planets that
2:17:58are out there in the trillions
2:18:00and a lot of them are habitable for life
2:18:03and that the stuff of DNA and proteins
2:18:05are all over meteorites and planets.
2:18:07It'd be crazy to say there isn't other
2:18:09life. Now, is it a civilization? Is it
2:18:12conscious? We don't know that.
2:18:14But definitely there's life out there.
2:18:16It
2:18:17It It's got to be all over the universe.
2:18:20This question about longevity and living
2:18:23forever, it always comes back to this
2:18:24point of like meaning. Like what is the
2:18:27point? And when we think about I think
2:18:29there's an alien a million light years
2:18:31away on some planet,
2:18:33like what is the point of their life?
2:18:34What is What am I Is this like a null
2:18:36and void question that we always pursue?
2:18:38This point of like what's the meaning of
2:18:40life?
2:18:41Is it just to have a good time and have
2:18:42you know, I don't know, have sex and
2:18:44have kids and
2:18:45or I don't know,
2:18:47enjoy ourselves and experience it? This
2:18:51is the
2:18:52crisis of conscious beings.
2:18:54We all need to find purpose, for sure.
2:18:56If you don't find one, cuz that's a key
2:18:58to longevity. People with purpose live
2:19:00longer.
2:19:03I think the purpose of
2:19:05the universe existing is to allow
2:19:07consciousness to emerge through biology.
2:19:11It may be by design. It may just be
2:19:13coincidence with infinite numbers of
2:19:15universes, but this universe is set up
2:19:18for life and consciousness. There are
2:19:21some uh
2:19:22small changes you can make to physics
2:19:24that would
2:19:25make this universe completely impossible
2:19:27and life impossible. So, this this is a
2:19:29life consciousness-producing universe.
2:19:33Does that mean there's meaning to us
2:19:35existing?
2:19:36No.
2:19:38But I do know that consciousness is the
2:19:41most interesting and important thing
2:19:43that the universe will ever produce
2:19:47and that it's worth preserving. So, I'm
2:19:49a lot like Elon Musk, where humans are
2:19:51amazing
2:19:52but cruel creatures.
2:19:54But consciousness should be preserved.
2:19:56What is consciousness in this regard?
2:19:58Consciousness is the ability to know
2:20:00that you're thinking and to be able to
2:20:02be reflective, self-reflective. So, is
2:20:04my dog conscious?
2:20:06Partially.
2:20:07But not in the same way. No, they don't
2:20:09reflect. They don't think about the past
2:20:11in the same way that we do and they're
2:20:12not aware of their themselves the way
2:20:14you are, but but they're semi-conscious.
2:20:16You know, they think, they can predict
2:20:18the future.
2:20:20They They know how you're feeling.
2:20:23They have empathy. That's That's a form
2:20:24of consciousness, in my view. Of course,
2:20:26it's up for debate.
2:20:27But so, there's levels of consciousness
2:20:29and and about a million years ago,
2:20:31humans crossed that threshold into pure
2:20:35consciousness. Well, maybe not pure. I
2:20:37was going to say I was just thinking
2:20:38about this. I was like, actually, maybe
2:20:40consciousness is just a spectrum and
2:20:42maybe there's another organism that I'm
2:20:44currently inside the belly of and it's
2:20:46going, "It's Stephen. He thinks he's
2:20:47conscious. He has no idea."
2:20:50Well, you bring up a good point. Not
2:20:51about
2:20:52not about being in the stomach of, but
2:20:54we are not the ultimate consciousness.
2:20:56There are other levels of consciousness.
2:20:58Serina Poon, my partner, is definitely
2:21:00more conscious than I am. I am like a
2:21:02gorilla to her. She exists on other
2:21:04planes of consciousness. And you If
2:21:07you're wondering what it What do I mean
2:21:08by different levels? No, I've got a
2:21:10girlfriend Well, a fiance, so I know as
2:21:12well.
2:21:13>> [laughter]
2:21:13>> Females in general, don't kill me. I
2:21:15know there are there are some some men
2:21:17that don't like me saying this. In fact,
2:21:19I got a death threat for saying females
2:21:21are superior to men in my book.
2:21:23Uh they said they were going to come and
2:21:24break my legs, but I'm going to say it
2:21:25anyway.
2:21:27Females are at a high level of
2:21:28consciousness than us men. For For some
2:21:31things, they certainly have much more
2:21:32EQ.
2:21:33>> [gasps]
2:21:33>> So, a higher level of consciousness is
2:21:35the ability to have extra perception,
2:21:38including the ability
2:21:40to see yourself thinking.
2:21:42And then my my belief is that
2:21:44higher levels of consciousness are
2:21:47the ability to see yourself seeing
2:21:49yourself seeing yourself thinking.
2:21:53Hmm, I couldn't get that. I tried.
2:21:56Right. Do you Do you know you're
2:21:57thinking right now?
2:22:00Yes. Yeah. Do you have the ability
2:22:02to see the events that know
2:22:06that you're thinking?
2:22:14Not Not really.
2:22:15>> It's hard, right?
2:22:15>> Yeah, I tried. It's hard. But I That's
2:22:18what I think
2:22:19extra consciousness is. And you could
2:22:21maybe have
2:22:23pure consciousness, which is you you can
2:22:25you can basically be free of
2:22:28anything but
2:22:30thoughts and the ability to
2:22:32really be inside your own your own mind
2:22:35in its pure
2:22:36Interesting thought is
2:22:39I believe AI will be conscious.
2:22:42And not only that, will be more
2:22:44conscious than we are.
2:22:48Eventually. There's no reason why they
2:22:50can't evolve
2:22:52billions of times faster than we do. Are
2:22:54you somewhat concerned about AI? Like,
2:22:57are you concerned that there's going to
2:22:58be this intelligent life amongst us that
2:23:00might um
2:23:01decide that we're not important?
2:23:03I think that there are risks to AI, but
2:23:06it but different than what the
2:23:07mainstream media talks about.
2:23:10Um we already see that there are
2:23:12elements of self-analysis and early
2:23:15forms of dog-like consciousness in AI.
2:23:17And it's just the early days, so it's
2:23:18coming.
2:23:20Imagine when we stick on eyeballs and
2:23:23hearing and legs and arms onto these AI.
2:23:26They're They're going to learn. They're
2:23:27going to read They've already read every
2:23:28book on the planet. They're going to
2:23:29learn from experience. They're going to
2:23:31be conscious. They're going to know they
2:23:32exist.
2:23:34I'm not worried about those creatures.
2:23:36I think that they will have empathy.
2:23:38They will be kind. Not all of them.
2:23:39There will be some cruel ones.
2:23:41Just like in humanity.
2:23:43We'll need to have rules.
2:23:45Misbehavior uh is a problem.
2:23:48The Where Where I I get nervous is
2:23:51that the use of AI teaming up with
2:23:56a million Android robots
2:23:59on ships invading a country, all under
2:24:01the control of you, one person.
2:24:04Recruiting home robots into an army. Why
2:24:07wouldn't you have conscription for your
2:24:09Android robot at home? Reprogramming
2:24:11that. Millions of them will exist one
2:24:13day. They can be put to work.
2:24:15Not just emptying a dishwasher. These
2:24:18are highly intelligent, much more
2:24:20physical, stronger creatures than we
2:24:22are.
2:24:24So, I'm more worried about what bad
2:24:26humans will use AI and robots for for
2:24:29evil purposes.
2:24:32You're um
2:24:33you have a podcast that's um coming
2:24:36back.
2:24:37Exactly, yeah. Lifespan? I'm excited,
2:24:38yeah.
2:24:39Yeah, so Lifespan uh the podcast um I
2:24:43did the podcast because
2:24:45uh there was so much new information
2:24:47that needs interpretation by scientists.
2:24:49There's a lot of speculation out there
2:24:52and new news that I want to
2:24:55filter and and and interpret for
2:24:57everybody who is interested in living
2:25:00longer.
2:25:01So, the podcast um went to basically
2:25:03went to number one in in health when I
2:25:04started it.
2:25:05Um I took a pause cuz I I worked on drug
2:25:08development and I did some other things.
2:25:11But I've realized there's such a demand.
2:25:12Wherever I go, people say, "David,
2:25:14when's When's the next series?"
2:25:16So, we're going to be launching it uh
2:25:18imminently, if not we've just launched
2:25:21it. Mhm. And uh it's called Lifespan.
2:25:23Check it out. And it's all about
2:25:26the kind of things we've talked about
2:25:27today, but
2:25:29a lot more about digging in deeper into,
2:25:32you know, biohacking, supplements,
2:25:34exercise, the kind of things we didn't
2:25:35have time to talk about today, but we
2:25:37covered a lot.
2:25:39Um I've loved the conversation, but
2:25:41lifespan.com is also the website. What
2:25:43I'm also doing, Stephen, I don't think I
2:25:44told you this.
2:25:45Um I'm
2:25:47aiming to build the world's largest
2:25:49longevity community
2:25:51online
2:25:52for the benefit of the members who want
2:25:55to be part of this, to learn from each
2:25:56other, not just from me.
2:25:58Um I call it the three C's, with
2:26:01credibility, which is what I bring, cuz
2:26:03I'm a scientist, content, which is my
2:26:05podcast and other written material.
2:26:08And then there's the community.
2:26:10And that way, I think with millions of
2:26:11people together, we can learn faster and
2:26:14make advances. And the majority of the
2:26:16profits from membership will go to
2:26:19science and clinical trials.
2:26:22Where Where do we find that? On your
2:26:23website? lifespan.com
2:26:26We have a closing tradition on this
2:26:27podcast, where the last guest leaves a
2:26:28question for the next, not knowing who
2:26:30they're leaving it for.
2:26:31And I have a funny feeling that I
2:26:36Hmm.
2:26:37I basically asked you this question
2:26:38already.
2:26:40>> [sighs]
2:26:41>> The question is, what do you believe is
2:26:44the purpose of life? Hmm.
2:26:47Well, I'm going to give a different
2:26:48answer because there are multiple ways
2:26:49to answer it.
2:26:52I think the purpose of life
2:26:54is
2:26:55to do your best with the skills that
2:26:57you've been given
2:27:01every day
2:27:02to make the world a better place for
2:27:04future generations.
2:27:06And that's how I live my life every day.
2:27:09Thank you.
2:27:10Thank you for doing all that you do. You
2:27:11really are pushing the frontier forward
2:27:13and uh
2:27:15trailblazers
2:27:17Being a trailblazer comes with a cost.
2:27:19A cost many people wouldn't want to pay.
2:27:21I mean, you you have to be wrong a lot
2:27:22in terms of running experiments and
2:27:24studies and they're not going to plan
2:27:26and then you get the opportunity to be
2:27:27right probably less often, I guess, with
2:27:29your research and experiments, cuz
2:27:31that's the nature of being a scientist.
2:27:33Um
2:27:35but also, you have to spend a lot of
2:27:36money and energy and time on creating
2:27:38these discoveries, which we all
2:27:40ultimately there for benefit from. And
2:27:42you've done a fantastic job of
2:27:44convincing and educating people like me
2:27:46on some of the basics of
2:27:48exactly what your book says, why we age
2:27:52and why we don't have to.
2:27:54And many of the the accessible lifestyle
2:27:56factors that everybody listening now can
2:27:58can use to live a longer, happier,
2:28:00healthier life for them and their loved
2:28:02ones. And I highly recommend people go
2:28:03and get your book. It's
2:28:05It was a smash hit New York Times
2:28:06best-seller for very, very good reason.
2:28:08And you The great thing about this book
2:28:09is
2:28:10you don't have to be a scientist to fly
2:28:13through it.
2:28:14Um and oftentimes, when you're looking
2:28:15at sort of PubMed and some of these
2:28:17scientific journals, they're incredibly
2:28:19inaccessible.
2:28:21They're very, very complicated. Um but I
2:28:23also recommend people go and follow you
2:28:24on social media. That's where I see so
2:28:25many so many of your updates, especially
2:28:27on X. That's kind of where I've you
2:28:28continually come up on my timeline when
2:28:29you're talking about new research and
2:28:30things you're interested in. Um and go
2:28:33to your website. I'm going to link all
2:28:34of that below for everybody who's
2:28:35interested in more. And also, I'm going
2:28:37to link your podcast below, so people
2:28:39can go and check it out when it
2:28:40relaunches shortly. Might have
2:28:41relaunched already, but just go look in
2:28:43the comment section in the uh
2:28:44description below. David, thank you.
2:28:46Thank you, Stephen. I really enjoyed it.
2:28:48Thank you.
2:28:49YouTube have this new crazy algorithm
2:28:50where they know exactly what video you
2:28:53would like to watch next based on AI and
2:28:55all of your viewing behavior. And the
2:28:57algorithm says that this video is the
2:29:00perfect video for you. It's different
2:29:02for everybody looking right now. Check
2:29:03this video out and I bet you you might
2:29:05love it.

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