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"Don't Ignore This!" Dream Expert on The Shocking Dreams You Need To Pay Attention To — Transcript

by Dr. Mayim Bialik · 23,005 words · 3,307 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Why do we dream? Dreaming is
0:03high-intensity training for creativity
0:05and imagination and emotion. There's
0:07mystery and magic to it and it's a
0:08sacred space. If dreams are good for us,
0:10why are we have nightmares? We are
0:12inheriting our thinking and dream
0:15processes from our ancestors. When
0:17children dream of animals, they tend to
0:19dream of beasts, not puppies. Nightmares
0:23could be a warning sign for mental
0:24health issues. They're linked to
0:26depression. They're linked to suicide.
0:28We may have gotten it wrong thinking
0:29death is when the heart stops beating.
0:31Your brain dies a few minutes after your
0:33heart dies. Death is electrical
0:35silencing of brain activity. The heart
0:38is stopped but for 3 minutes after
0:40there's an explosion of brain activity.
0:43It doesn't go out in a whimper. The last
0:45thing that the brain does is just launch
0:47all the neurotransmitters, all the
0:49electricity. Some people who are
0:51resuscitated say I saw my whole life
0:53story. It's consistent or near-death
0:56experiences. Those electrical patterns
0:58are like wild dreams. So maybe death is
1:00one last dream. There is one dream or
1:03dream pattern that predicts the future
1:06and that's
1:09[Music]
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2:22good stuff. Hi, I'm Balik. I'm Jonathan
2:25Cohen. Welcome to our breakdown. Jumped
2:27on my line there. We're so excited.
2:29We're very excited because
2:32we're going to find out what the heck is
2:35happening when our eyes close and it's
2:38night night time. It turns out a lot
2:40more than we expected. We used to think
2:43we understood what was going on in sleep
2:46and in dreams, but the science has
2:48changed so much and so rapidly. We're
2:50going to be talking to Rahul Jandial.
2:53He's an MD PhD. He's a neurosurgeon and
2:55a neuroscientist. And he wrote This Is
2:59Why You Dream. And it's all about the
3:01fascinating science behind what we're
3:04dreaming, the cultural similarities of
3:06people's dreams, people's nightmares.
3:09What's the function of a nightmare?
3:11What's up with erotic dreams? Everybody
3:13wants to know. And what are the things
3:15that we can do to help us harness the
3:18power of
3:20lucid dreaming and how can it impact our
3:23waking life? We're going to talk about
3:25the imagination network and the
3:27executive functioning network and how
3:29those interplay through between our
3:32waking life and our sleep life. Dr. Dr.
3:34Jandial has fascinating perspective as
3:37someone who literally operates on
3:38brains, holds people's lives in his hand
3:41and is going to describe for us how he
3:44can literally create a memory of a
3:48nightmare during open brain surgery. I
3:51mean, it's absolutely fascinating. We
3:53also get a little esoteric. We bring him
3:55into the MBB spiritual world. We talk
3:59about what the brain does right before
4:02it dies. and I was just like my jaw was
4:05on the floor for that. You may have seen
4:07him other places before, but you've
4:09actually never seen him like you're
4:10about to. Um, Dr. Janiel oversees um,
4:14uh, the Jandal Lab at City of Hope
4:16Cancer Center in Los Angeles. He also
4:18has an unbelievable nonprofit um, the
4:20International Neurosurgical Children's
4:22Association where he performs and
4:24teaches brain surgery in underserved
4:26hospitals in Central and South America,
4:28Southeast Asia, and Eastern Europe. He's
4:30the author of um several books including
4:33life lessons from a brain surgeon and
4:35life on a knife's edge. But today we're
4:37going to be talking about this is why
4:38you dreamless. Welcome to the breakdown
4:40Rahul Jandal. Break it down. We talk a
4:45lot about dreams. It's something we talk
4:48a ton about and this is why you dream
4:51was very helpful and we wanted you to
4:54sort of give us the primer. First of
4:56all, why do we dream? Massive question,
5:00right? I mean, who who should be given
5:02the opportunity to even answer that
5:03question? But, um, my hypothesis, my
5:08understanding is based on neuroscience
5:10that's only been available for the last
5:1220, 30 years. So, of course, you've
5:14trained in it. I'm 52. That was my
5:17training. And so, the pre, you know, the
5:20prior like theories were just shots in
5:23the dark, like, oh, it's threat
5:25training. Oh, it's nocturnal therapist.
5:28Um, but what I what I found is that um
5:34modern neuroscience
5:36shows that in a 24-hour cycle, our brain
5:39is never off. So, when we sleep, you're
5:42not resting. Your brain is not resting.
5:44It's not like a a computer screen that
5:46turns off. You click the keyboard, it
5:47pops back on. So, what what's happening
5:49in that 24-hour cycle is you have like
5:51the waking brain and the sleep dreaming
5:54brain. And the metabolic activity, the
5:58glucose being used, the electricity
5:59that's being churned out by those
6:01neurons is burning hot when you sleep
6:03and dream. And so that that speaks to
6:07something important must be happening.
6:08Like you're not going to hold on to that
6:11capacity through evolution if it's not
6:13important. So then the idea comes well
6:16what how is that dreaming brain
6:18different than the waking brain? And
6:20what you find in the waking brain is the
6:21executive networks uh tend to reign and
6:24dominate things. You know, fancy words,
6:26but dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex
6:29controls executive networks and it keeps
6:31us, you know, able to drive on traffic,
6:33get on the subway. And that's important.
6:35That area is dampened. Nothing's ever
6:38off in the dreaming brain. And other
6:40areas like the imagination network or
6:42the lyic system are liberated. So if the
6:45dreaming brain is a hypervisual hyper
6:47imagaginative state my idea is the brain
6:50needs to let that loose to maintain that
6:52capacity.
6:54So use it or lose it. So the brain is
6:56saying we need a safe space to let this
6:59imagination to let this you know desire
7:02to let this visual sort of uh adventures
7:06and awkward social situations happen in
7:09a safe space otherwise we'll lose that
7:11lose that complexity. So my idea is to
7:14put it briefly is dreaming is
7:15high-intensity training for creativity
7:17and imagination and emotion based on the
7:20way the brain is different in those two
7:22states. Why are there nightmares?
7:26Meaning if that's the place for me to to
7:28play and have imagination and
7:30creativity, why are so many people
7:32plagued by a high level of negative
7:35intensity with dreams? Come on. If
7:37dreams are good for us, why are we have
7:39nightmares? And that's that's a
7:40straightup question. I think it's an
7:41important one. Um the way I've and I
7:44made that chapter too because I wanted
7:45to get in front of it. Um what we find
7:49with nightmares. So now now you can go
7:53back like 50 years or 100 years and now
7:55some of the stories start even with like
7:57Aristotle writing about lucid dreaming.
7:59So those are surveys
8:01uh questionnaires people are logging
8:03things for centuries. Uh and then there
8:06are measurements. We went talked about
8:07the dreaming brain and that was more of
8:09things we can measure and I I try to
8:11link the ideas. Um nightmares arrive for
8:15children no matter how healthy the
8:16upbringing. These are called
8:17longitudinal studies. Like they had
8:19families say here's our four-year-old
8:20and asking about dreaming until they're
8:22like 24 years old. And so you get an
8:24idea of how dream patterns arrive at
8:27which age. Um and every kid is h every
8:31kid has a nightmare. and they tend to
8:33arrive at age four, five, six, seven,
8:35something like that. So, as far as
8:38pediatric nightmares, they arrive and
8:41almost overwhelmingly they they they go
8:43away. Kids don't really have nightmare
8:46disorders. So, the best way I've come to
8:48understand nightmares is to uh break
8:50them into two categories. pediatric
8:52nightmares that arrive for healthy kids
8:54and then late in life nightmares that
8:56sometimes pop up once in a while or more
8:59concerningly like after trauma or PTSD
9:01they become recurrent and those are some
9:03of the those nightmares I think have to
9:06be understood to be a little bit
9:07different um this guy he's pointing to
9:10you how many fingers are pointing back
9:13it's funny but th those so those those
9:16are two separate themes for nightmares
9:19um and adults I think nightmares could
9:22be a warning sign. If you look at the
9:25pattern of nightmares, not the
9:26occasional nightmare, but what we call
9:28progressive, like a headache, not a big
9:31deal. A headache the next day, worse,
9:33worse, stronger. Progressive nightmares
9:36um could be a warning sign for mental
9:39health issues are linked to, that
9:40doesn't mean they're causing suicide,
9:42but they're linked to depression.
9:43They're linked to suicide. So I I see
9:45them as adults maybe a vital sign rather
9:48than blood pressure and pain and
9:50temperature and then I see them in in
9:52children and children it's all
9:53hypothetical but the they happen to come
9:55at the same time as the cultivation of
9:57theory of mind. So just like we learn to
9:59walk and talk uh we we also our the mind
10:03is being cultivated right it starts to
10:05sense get a sense of self versus other
10:07and then it becomes you know then it
10:08develops sexual um features and then it
10:12and then there's adolescence the flesh
10:14looks the same but the mind is going
10:16through a lot of changes. There has to
10:18be something a universal cognitive
10:20feature like nightmares arriving at age
10:22four, five, six in every kid. It's it's
10:25got to be cultivating or fine-tuning the
10:27the mind aspect uh more so than the
10:30brain. So those are that's the sort of
10:32the two ways I think about it. Have
10:34there been links between children who
10:37are under some sort of increased stress
10:40with frequency of nightmare? I I don't
10:43have a specific answer for that. And so
10:45the uh the surveys on children are
10:48limited. Uh but I think that's a
10:50question that I asked originally like
10:53there was this terrible thing like in I
10:55don't know if it's Barus where the kids
10:56weren't picked up in orphanages and then
10:58they've scanned their brains and it was
11:00like they were smoother. Um there was a
11:04lack of those foss that allow surface
11:06area to develop. Uh the same way I was
11:09like well kids who've had a harder life
11:12must maybe they have more nightmares.
11:13And I didn't find that as an obvious
11:15link. But we we you talk about trauma
11:18and the connection between trauma and
11:19sleep, which I thought was really
11:20interesting because to me it's a little
11:22bit of an opening. You talk so much
11:24about how what happens at night is in
11:26many cases a reflection of also what
11:27your brain is working on in the day. So
11:29if you're working on a lot of trauma or
11:32you're talking about neglect, right,
11:34like constitutional neglect, um it
11:36wouldn't surprise me that that sort of
11:38makes its way into the nightmare world
11:40as well or the sleep world. Absolutely.
11:42I I Yeah. So that just to reverse like
11:45you can't the the waking the waking mind
11:49experiences and memory are of course
11:51feeding the the dreaming mind and that
11:53goes way to the concept of like can you
11:56interpret dreams is like does a basket
11:57mean the same thing for all of us. It's
11:59hard given that we're always adding our
12:01own imagination our own memory into it
12:03but yes it seems reasonable that people
12:06who are struggling that that would be
12:08reflected in some way in their dreams.
12:10Uh I I just didn't find a lot of you
12:13can't actually dream. You can't actually
12:14search like some of these things. It's
12:16all like tangential like imagination and
12:18trauma on kids and so you're it was
12:20really like hunting for links because
12:22there is no I don't think so but there
12:24isn't like a professor of dream science.
12:26It's not really a science. It had to
12:27pull from trauma imagination perception.
12:31But your point is well taken. I'm I was
12:33just thinking like I've been to a lot of
12:34doctors. I've been to a lot of
12:35therapists. Right. No one ever says,
12:39"How are you?" Like, "What are you
12:41dreaming about?" or "What is your dream
12:43life like?" Like, they'll be like, "How
12:44many hours are you sleeping a night?"
12:45Right? Psychiatrists love to ask that.
12:47And I'm like, "Well, what kind of five
12:49hours do you want me to describe to
12:50you?" You know, exactly.
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16:01We're going to get into dream
16:02interpretation later because I think
16:04there's a fascinating exploration about
16:06how we assign personal meaning that you
16:08explain. But let's step back a little
16:10bit and get some of the overview in
16:12terms of can you talk a little bit about
16:16this idea of smoothness that you just
16:18mentioned in brain structure because I
16:20think a lot of people don't quite
16:22understand that myself included and then
16:24talk about you know the the evidence
16:26that you saw of dreams being in the
16:29brain through awake surgeries. Oo. Okay.
16:33So, first of all, thank you. Um, I I try
16:37to be clear about measurements, surveys.
16:40I'm not disparaging anybody or any
16:43approach, but sometimes it's too easy to
16:46say the is the brain does this or this
16:48is good for your brain. It may be true.
16:50I just need that one step further
16:52explanation
16:54where at at what scale is it at the like
16:57the flesh? Is it at the electrochemistry
16:59like where we you know we might take
17:00anti-depressant just just one step
17:02deeper gives me a sense that uh it's
17:06been explored a little bit. So that said
17:09the uh when you when you look at the
17:13brain much like like the Grand Canyon
17:14you can see like the different types of
17:16dinosaurs like their sedimentary layers
17:18you can you can you know you can date
17:22how old the neurons are based on
17:24evolution. And so what happened most
17:26recently was the the it's not really
17:29modular because but it's connected the
17:31reptilian brain the mamalian brain with
17:34emotions instinct uh which is its own
17:36kind of genius and then the prefrontal
17:38cortex which is the part that over time
17:41pushed our foreheads forward. It the
17:43frontal bossing we have is from that
17:45growth. And so to to accommodate that
17:47growth, the forehead was pushed forward,
17:50but also like a pizza, it had to be like
17:52smooshed together like an accordion to
17:54fit inside the skull. So those ridges
17:56are a way to have a greater surface area
18:00of what they call a cortical canopy and
18:02the neurons are all on top. So when you
18:05see the brain, the other things the
18:07brain is not a homogeneous structure.
18:08you know that like when you when you
18:09look at the side there's different
18:12anatomical regions there's different
18:14fibers under a microscope there are
18:16different cell types it's not like the
18:18liver where you you cut it wherever you
18:19cut it it just looks like tiles and so
18:22what what happens is the the neurons if
18:26you think of them as like molecular
18:27jellyfish the bodies are all on the
18:29surface and then the tentacles are
18:32coming down sort of like a mushroom to
18:34the to the brain stem that controls your
18:36body so to to fit in all of those uh
18:40neurons on the cortical canopy and
18:43there's a lot of like um uh you know
18:46sort of ecology terms that I love like
18:48to understand the brain you kind of have
18:49to think of it as an ecosystem and as a
18:50garden and cortex means bark like it's
18:54the top you know centimeter that's where
18:56the neurons are uh situated. So
19:00once in a while when there's a
19:01deep-seated tumor, we have to get to a
19:03deeper brain structure. That means
19:05you're going to have to go through the
19:06cortical canopy. And to do that safely,
19:09patients choose particularly with
19:12language uh something called awake brain
19:15surgery. I know it's been going it's for
19:1760 70 years. It's what's done at at all
19:19the elite centers. It's possible because
19:22the brain doesn't feel touched directly
19:24in the exposed brain with the person
19:26awake. If you touch just gently the
19:28surface of the brain, there's no feeling
19:29that somebody touched me. Perception is
19:31all through the nerves that come out of
19:33our skull and our body. So when we
19:36whereas movement like a Lombard Street
19:38right here, we know this is motor does
19:40hand, this is motor, this does hand, but
19:43language is usually left temporal lobe
19:44and it's a it's a neighborhood, but it's
19:46not a specific address. That address has
19:48to be determined in each person when
19:50they're awake. So the scalp is numb.
19:54They're under anesthesia. Uh how big a
19:57hole are we talking about being? About a
19:59about a cookie size. He likes big
20:01cookies. Yeah. I mean, Mrs. Fields
20:04nibblers. Yeah. 12 for uh that's a it's
20:08an interesting question. You know, in
20:09the past like it could be an Oreo size.
20:12Not for this. It depends. It depends on
20:15uh we try to do the smallest hole
20:17possible, but it has to provide
20:20sufficient exposure. So the incision is
20:22in the sideburn and you know it's a
20:24medium cookie size hole in the skull. Um
20:28it's done behind the hairline with an
20:30absorbable stitch. You don't see the
20:31scar. Uh cuz you're taking a flap out of
20:34the skull in order to access like ice
20:36fishing. You make one hole and you lift
20:38that piece of skull out. Yeah. And you
20:40put on the back table look like a
20:42cookie. Um and then the brain isn't just
20:45there. It's covered with a sheath a
20:47little bit like a nylon parachute called
20:49a duraater. And then you lift that up
20:51and you size that and then it's
20:52something beautiful. I mean it's
20:53oolescent. It's not gray. It's
20:55shimmering. I mean I mean it's not the
20:57whole thing about the brain. It's it's
20:59like nothing you've seen before. And the
21:01fact that that it's that way when it's
21:03getting so much blood flow like
21:05shouldn't it be red? But so there's
21:07there's mystery and magic to it
21:08immediately when you look at it and it's
21:09a sacred space. So now with like a faint
21:12pen it looks like a fountain pen the
21:14tiniest bit of electricity you're
21:16looking for disruption of function. So
21:19that means uh the patient has got a
21:21drape and somebody's sitting there
21:23talking to them. They've been, you know,
21:25they've woken up, they're still a little
21:26groggy, but the scalp is numb, so
21:28they're not in pain. And uh you you
21:30march, you you tickle a little spot, and
21:32you see if it disrupts their speech. So
21:35they're asked to count or sing or speak
21:37in different languages, a language that
21:39they know, obviously. Um yeah, you can't
21:41be like, "You speak Mandarin now just by
21:43touching that." Yeah, that's well the
21:46the reason is that if you if you injure
21:49their primary tongue, they lose all
21:52languages that they may have learned.
21:55But if you grew up with English and you
21:56learn Spanish like I did, if you go if
21:58you injure Spanish, I'll still be able
22:00to have English. So there's wait a
22:02second. English and Spanish, the primary
22:05tongue and secondary languages are
22:07stored in slightly different areas. I we
22:09storage may not be the right word, but
22:10if you injure the primary tongue, you
22:12lose all languages subsequently learned.
22:14So basically the structure for language
22:16is established in whatever your primary
22:18tongue is. God doesn't know what people
22:19are going to be and where they're going
22:20to grow up. So you have a template in
22:22your brain. I mean depending on how
22:24choskian you want to be like there's a
22:26there is language that is built upon
22:29that language you build other languages
22:32which is he loves this. No, no. I I
22:34understand that, but to think that as
22:38you're poking around, it could be the
22:40difference between how like confetti
22:42sized pieces confetti sized parts of the
22:45brain that would
22:48cause someone to lose one versus the
22:50other is amazing. And and the way to
22:52think of that is it's not necessarily
22:53that little piece, but that piece could
22:55be the hub of something bigger, right?
22:57Like Heathrow or LAX, you disrupt that,
22:59you're changing the world. That's an
23:00excellent question. the the language
23:02thing and so the natural questions are
23:04like well well what if you learn both or
23:07what if what if braille
23:10sign language so there's a lot of
23:12interesting questions that others when
23:14when they do these operations will bring
23:16to you and so it's a field that's always
23:18interesting to read but back to the so
23:21they'll you'll it's 1 2 3 4 5 6 and you
23:24tickle and they don't they say 1 2 3 4 5
23:276 7 8 9 10 and they don't pause you what
23:30you're looking for is something called
23:31speech arrest. And if you hit a if you
23:34hit the next confetti piece that you're
23:35mapping out, they'll go 1 2 3 three
23:37three
23:39record skip and then you put a red piece
23:41of confetti. So that means to get to the
23:44deeper part of the brain, you cannot
23:47dissect through that little piece. So in
23:49the end, it looks like Swiss cheese that
23:51you made little portals in to get to the
23:53deeper brain to dissect out. And you're
23:55finding the least destructive pathway to
23:57get deeper. Yeah, that that I think
24:00that's a fair way to put it that you
24:01don't want to lose any part of your
24:02brain, but the you're going through
24:04areas that don't have functional
24:06significance um for language and
24:09communication when that happens. Back to
24:11dreams. Uh and it's been reported uh
24:14from the Montreal experience for a while
24:16and it's it's not a it's not some sort
24:18of like magical recent thing. It's just
24:22that people are in my field. They don't
24:24take these things and think about how
24:25that could be broadly relevant. But
24:28sometimes when you tickle, you can
24:29activate people's nightmares. Recurrent
24:31nightmares they've had since they were a
24:33kid. What does that say? What does that
24:34look like when you're They're freaked
24:36out. They That's a nightmare I had when
24:38I was young. Oh, they're reexperiencing
24:41in that moment. They're not falling
24:42asleep. So, it's the only thing I Yeah.
24:45It's the only thing I can say about
24:47dreams is that they come from the brain
24:48because I've activated one. Everything
24:51else is a conversation. Wow. That's how
24:53I opened the book. Um, so when you think
24:56about in terms of how information is
24:58coded in the brain, like this is
25:01intricate and fascinating because we're
25:02talking about a localization, right,
25:05that is producing an experience because
25:07the electricity is reverberating like
25:09aurora borealis all across the brain.
25:12It's not like that spot does that only
25:14and the next spot does creativity. It's
25:16just that spot is in a certain hub that
25:18if you trip it up, it throws off all
25:21kinds of synchrony throughout the brain
25:23rather than like this does this and this
25:25is where creativity lives and this is
25:26where love lives. It's just really not
25:28like that. And the old best example I
25:29can come up with is is the way like
25:31financial markets work or airports work
25:34through hubs and flights and different
25:36things. You could, you know, technically
25:38Heathrow is a very small place on the
25:40planet, but you're going to have larger
25:41scale disruptions with it. I think
25:43that's how you think about uh spots in
25:46the brain. Not that they that spot does
25:48that and then the next spot does the
25:50next thing. I'm going to ask something
25:51that might make you uncomfortable
25:53because I greatly appreciate your desire
25:56and need for clarity and evidence. So
25:58this is a little bit more metaphysical.
26:00Sure. The idea that the nightmare is in
26:03the brain to if if we think about we
26:07talk a lot to physicists and talk think
26:09about the hard problem of consciousness.
26:12It could also be that they're
26:16wired in the brain because you've had
26:18the experience. So, they're recreated by
26:20those mechanisms, but they didn't
26:22necessarily start initially
26:25in the brain. Do you know what I mean?
26:27Um,
26:29like where they where they were
26:31experienced first. It could be that
26:34you've had those repeated grooves and
26:36therefore now it's mapped. That doesn't
26:38make me uncomfortable at all. I I think
26:40that's fascinating. I I don't know if um
26:43some energy is crossing the skull to uh
26:48initiate or seed cognitive experiences.
26:51I haven't seen that. I'm not opposed to
26:54that. I'm open to that. What I would add
26:56is of the dreams, the nightmares as a
26:59species of dreams, it follows, it's the
27:02only dream that follows sort of a
27:03hereditary pattern. So
27:08adding to that, what I would say is we
27:09are inheriting
27:11our thinking and dream processes from
27:15our ancestors. And and so that might
27:18sound woowoo to some, but I I I want to
27:20pro provide the evidence for that is
27:21that when children uh dream of animals,
27:24it's not puppies, it's not pho, they
27:27they tend to dream of beasts. Yeah. And
27:29so you see certain patterns of thought
27:31and you say, "Well, of course that makes
27:33sense because you can get depression
27:34from family. You get bipolar, you get
27:36schizophrenia and nightmare disorder
27:39clusters in family, but teeth falling
27:41out doesn't cluster in family. You know,
27:43flying doesn't cluster in families. Um,
27:46and then nightmares and erotic dreams
27:48are almost universal. They always arrive
27:51at approximately the same time no matter
27:53the country and no matter the era. And
27:55so you start to see that much like we in
27:58my opinion um much like you know when
28:02you're born you're not walking and
28:04talking it's cultivated in you and if
28:07you if you don't encourage that person
28:08to walk and talk or if we cover an eye
28:10for medical purposes where those neurons
28:13would receive that signal they wither I
28:16think same thing with the cultivation of
28:17the mind is what we engage with children
28:20but also there are some patterns of five
28:22or six they all get nightmares because I
28:24I'm a pediat iatric nuros surgeon by
28:26passion also in other countries and you
28:28see like oh five or six they all have
28:30nightmares I've had three sons I've had
28:32to tell them it's only a nightmare and
28:33then it makes you think like can they
28:35not discern uh dream thoughts from day
28:38thoughts until nightmares so I can never
28:40prove that but those are the
28:42metaphysical adjacent questions that I
28:44also like to ask and then oh they get uh
28:47they get erotic dreams but they've never
28:49seen or uh had the erotic act it arrives
28:52before almost like a a guide book and
28:55then they go through adolescence. Um,
28:57not perfectly. A lot of mental health
28:59issues happen there. But those three
29:02things, nightmares, erotic dreams, and
29:04adolescence are mental changes, mind
29:07changes that happen. I I feel like
29:10that's built in uh that's built in from
29:12the neurons and unlikely to not
29:15impossible, but unlikely to come from
29:17outside the skull. There's a few things
29:19you touch on here. Um, one of them is
29:22the universality of symbols in the
29:25dream. And I never considered that. I I
29:28for example have dreamt a lot about
29:30tigers or lions chasing me. I've never
29:33had an experience with a tiger or lion.
29:35I wonder if that is inherited through
29:40ancestral connection. And I also wonder
29:42are there universal animals that are
29:45dreamt across cultures more commonly
29:47than others? Uh, so I I was really
29:50looking for that. Um, and I mean there
29:53hundreds and hundreds of things and
29:54there were some mentions of like
29:56pterodactyls. I was like this come on
29:57this is just but that's just a mention.
29:59I can't we need more. Yeah. So, so what
30:02you're saying is
30:04imagine if the next 30 years if we took
30:06away all the judgment and made it
30:08anonymous and let everybody sort of log
30:11their dream thoughts, patterns, content.
30:14Somebody other than me 20, 30 years from
30:17now will have more brain surface
30:19recording uh recordings plus more of
30:22that like granularity of surveys and all
30:25the things they can like they can
30:26connect. Yeah. And so, yes, the uh
30:30beasts more than pets was something I
30:32noticed in a paper or two is your
30:34surveys. I thought that stuck out to me.
30:36Uh nightmares being inherited. I said
30:38maybe that you know that that uh that's
30:40linked. Um
30:42but um yeah, dreams and children are
30:46interesting because
30:48uh you have to rely on their
30:51communication. So they have to develop
30:54it first. Uh, one interesting pattern
30:56that I found was their abil their
30:58complexity of their dreams was linked
31:00more to the complexity of their visual
31:03motor maturation than it was like math
31:06and math and memory. I was like, that's
31:07interesting. You know, like the they're
31:10which one's feeding which is it cuz
31:12you're getting good at your physical
31:14environment and then your dreams are
31:16that way or is the is the dream becoming
31:18colorful and then you can navigate your
31:20physical environment better? I'm not
31:21sure, but I I like those kind of
31:23questions. There's an example in the
31:24book where you talk about um attempts to
31:27predict personalities based on reports
31:30of dreams. And there was this one study
31:33you talked about where the dreams were
31:36almost the opposite of the personality
31:39predictors. Meaning the the question was
31:42can we decide who is the most mature,
31:44who's the most sophisticated, who's the
31:46most um you know uh analytical of a
31:49thinker based on their dreams. And it
31:51turned out the people with like the
31:53craziest, most like creative dreams were
31:56actually the people who were not
31:58necessarily the most creative or
32:00imaginative people in their day life.
32:02Can you talk a little bit about some of
32:03those discrepancies? I I I was I was
32:05fascinated with that. It um in
32:08Parkinson's and and other things um
32:11there are these thoughts. Um so this
32:14this is it's going to take a little bit
32:16but it's a very beautiful concept here.
32:18So this so now this is measurements like
32:20it's going to feel wild but there is one
32:24dream or dream pattern that predicts the
32:28future and that's in Parkinson's
32:30patients when they get something called
32:32REM behavior disorder people can look it
32:34up they you it's almost invariably men
32:36in their 50s they start having what I
32:38like to call it dream enactment behavior
32:40because REM behavior disorder who's
32:42going to get that but um they end up
32:44acting out their dreams their temporary
32:47paralysis of of of dream life is not
32:50there and they attack their v partners.
32:52Uh and so those people that have that 94
32:57to 96%
32:59in the future 14 years 13 14 15 years
33:02later will develop Parkinson's. So a
33:05change in your dream pattern this like
33:06you can look this up on scientific
33:08American like this is not a it's things
33:10we know but I I tried to really connect
33:12it all but a change in dream pattern can
33:14predict the actual degeneration of the
33:16brain with Parkinson's 14 years advanced
33:19REM behavior disorder those people the
33:21first question they asked were are they
33:23just wilding out at night because
33:24they're just raging hard during the day
33:26and it was like no they were gen in
33:28general as a survey they were sort of
33:31mellow docile people and then they were
33:33just raging out through their dream
33:35changes. So, it's not clear like a wild
33:40waking life equals a wild dream life.
33:43And what I like about that is we
33:44wouldn't expect the waking life to be
33:47look, there are a lot of thoughts I have
33:48that I don't want. There are a lot of
33:50thoughts that I have that are
33:51interesting there. You know, the let's
33:53leave dream uh cognition, dream
33:56experiences because those neurons are
33:57going even if you're neurons are going
33:59on fire when you're running being chased
34:01by something by a tiger. It's just that
34:04your leg muscles aren't going, but the
34:05neurons in the motor strip are recording
34:07activity, right? So, it's happening at
34:10the brain. It's just not resonating
34:12through the body.
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35:50[Music]
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37:53I think it's fascinating. I'd like to
37:55touch back on what you were talking
37:57about in children, the idea of
37:59understanding the waking life through
38:03nightmare, meaning the differentiation
38:05between Yeah. those two worlds. Can you
38:08talk a little bit more about how they
38:10the evolutionary process almost of it's
38:12it's a conversation, right? So, but I'm
38:14just saying there's some really
38:15interesting things here that Well, first
38:17of all, when people say that, oh, I
38:19don't dream alo I've never met somebody
38:21who doesn't know what a nightmare is.
38:23It's a universal dream. I mean, I guess
38:25you could somebody could say I've never
38:26had one, but you know what I mean. It's
38:27it's a it's a species of dream we've all
38:29had and we all know what it is. Then
38:31part of a nightmare, which is very
38:33different in other dreams, is by
38:35definition, it's got to wake you up and
38:39it's got to sear your memory. Not just a
38:42bad dream. You make a distinction
38:43between like people have shitty dreams
38:44all the time. Nightmare is a different
38:46class. It's like almost you want you
38:48don't want to go back to sleep. It's
38:49like it's that intense. And and we know
38:51what nightmares are because uh they you
38:54know they freak you out. You wake up and
38:56the memory is is wildly active and it's
38:58seared imprinted. Whereas bad dream is
39:01it's you wake up and there's a residue
39:03and what happened? Oh, I don't want to
39:04feel that way anymore. You know, most
39:06dreams are looked at in the rear view.
39:07The nightmare is the only dream that
39:10wakes you up, slaps you around and says,
39:12"You're going to remember this." So,
39:14that's interesting in its own way. Um,
39:16and then when you think about in
39:18children, I have three grown sons, all
39:21of them, you know, and I've taken care
39:23of a lot of patients, thousands.
39:26um the
39:28all of them at some point I had to tell
39:30them it was only a nightmare which which
39:33when I started writing this putting this
39:34book together I was like does that mean
39:35they didn't know until then is the
39:37nightmare serving that purpose I don't
39:39have those answers but it's it is a very
39:41interesting thing that I they have to be
39:44taught this this thing you just went
39:47through in bed it's didn't really happen
39:50it's in your head and that's a whole
39:51different lifestyle and life and
39:54adventures you have and That's a that's
39:56a very interesting training ground for
39:57the mind. So there are there are
40:00children who I mean we just had Jim
40:02Tucker on a psychiatrist who studies
40:05children who claim to have lived other
40:08lives. He studied about 2,000 cases at
40:10UVA and uh he was at the UVA uh division
40:13of perceptual studies. And you know in
40:15many cases these kids are explaining an
40:18experience that is more real than a
40:21dream, more real than even a memory.
40:23It's like a lived experience. What about
40:26people who have dreams that they say and
40:29report feel more real than a dream? Is
40:33that a thing? Because this universe over
40:35here might be like it's an experience.
40:37They're channeling it from another
40:38consciousness. Like what is is there a
40:40categorical difference? I I think it's
40:43fascinating as a training ground because
40:47physiologically we experience that
40:49fatigue sometimes after a crazy
40:50nightmare or when we go through
40:52something. If it's an erotic dream, we
40:53feel aroused or if it's terror, blood
40:56pressure is through the roof. Yeah, I
40:57hear you. So, it's an it's interesting
40:59to think about those things as a
41:02training ground and and how we
41:03differentiate what's real. It could be
41:06if we're thinking about the evolutionary
41:09benefit, some of our awake mental
41:12daydreams or um mental ruminations can
41:16also have that same experience, right?
41:18They can cause physiological change. And
41:20if we say, wait a second, that's not
41:22real either. Are we having them as
41:23children? Again, this is just a
41:25hypothesis. Are we having them as
41:26children so that we can also say in our
41:28waking mind, wait a second, I can
41:30control some of where my mind goes and I
41:32don't have to follow it. That that
41:34that's an interesting that's an
41:36interesting concept. I'm just trying to
41:37draw the line between
41:40it's your imagination network. Okay. So,
41:44let me I'm just going to back up a
41:45little bit. I I can't say yes or no to
41:49is it
41:51I'm alive and there's an energy entering
41:53me outside from outside my skull as an
41:56adult. I can't I don't know. I don't
41:58have any evidence for that. I'm not
41:59saying other people aren't if if they're
42:00feeling it, they're feeling it. You
42:01know, they're not hurting anybody. I'm
42:02not against it, but the I can't tell you
42:06that we're inheriting
42:08cognitive features from our ancestors.
42:11That shouldn't be a surprise. I I can't
42:13tell you that your dream patterns fit
42:16that. I can tell you that Aristotle was
42:18talking about lucid dreams, and there's
42:20hardcore evidence now that proves it. So
42:22that there are thousands of years of
42:25dream reports that fit some patterns
42:28that this is not accidental, that
42:30there's a dreaming process that's
42:31running. Universal dreams, common
42:34dreams, very infrequent dreams, math,
42:37calculation. Now, somebody might have
42:38it, but in general, because that I I
42:41speak not my native tongue in my dreams.
42:43Yeah. And it's not normal. And so your
42:44your dream is infinitely wild. Yours is
42:46infinitely wild, but when you start
42:47looking at thousands of dreams, math is
42:50very rarely reported. And then going
42:52back to our original pos uh conversation
42:54that dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex is
42:56dampened which is what does calculation
42:58because we know when people get injured
42:59there they get a calculia which they
43:01can't do math. So I'm just putting a few
43:03of those patterns together. And then as
43:06far as imagination so that's really
43:08fascinating because that's I think
43:10that's what makes us um I don't know
43:13that's the thing that I that's the
43:14genius I love the most. So a couple of
43:16things about that. the newest neurons
43:19that are being formed in in the MPFC,
43:21the the medial prefrontal cortex, um
43:24they're all related to like social
43:26cognition. Like if you have injury
43:27there, they can't change their political
43:29views or they don't get social phauas.
43:31So, I think it's really exciting. It's
43:33not like we're getting stronger at like
43:34memorizing numbers to to advance with
43:37each other and and life, but it's a
43:39social interaction that happens. That
43:41said, I think dreaming cultivates that
43:45um uh lets us try out things in that
43:48area. And so what happens in the
43:50dreaming brain is uh the imagination
43:53network uh they default mode they have
43:56different they have different names for
43:57it. I like to call it the imagination
43:59network. It's the thing that when we
44:00daydream is our mental workspace. So
44:03there are if if you think of
44:06structurally as the brain is like
44:07continents they take turns being
44:10dominant and not do never off because
44:12that's a stroke. It's never nothing's
44:13ever off is it's just the modulation.
44:16You you wake up and you focus on getting
44:18something done. Your mental workspace
44:20your imagination network is dampened. Uh
44:23because that right now you actually have
44:24to get some executive things done.
44:26Things are under control. You don't have
44:29to search for food. you're able to now
44:32drift back into your own thoughts and
44:34have imagination. And back to your
44:37point, uh, imagination while we're awake
44:40or, you know, wild imagination in our
44:43dream life, I think is is is crucially
44:47important to pushing our the complexity
44:50of our thoughts forward. Um, because
44:53that's where we're running the ideas,
44:54the counterfactual thinking. If I go
44:56here, this happens. If I go here, this
44:57doesn't happen. like it's it's choices
44:59that have made us who we are, right?
45:01We're not just reflexive. Going back to
45:04children, you know, I I think nightmares
45:09that when you when you have to tell a
45:11child that it was only a dream, I maybe
45:15that liberates imagination during the
45:17day. Like you can let some things real
45:19run wild. It's just my idea. But back to
45:21you, like you can let some things run
45:23wild, but you don't have to actually
45:24carry out the act. You can imagine,
45:27wait, my uncle is smiling at me, but do
45:30they really wish me well? That's called
45:32theory of mind, being able to put
45:34yourself in other people's shoes. So
45:35whether daytime imagination feeds
45:38nighttime or whether I don't think it
45:40could be separated. Uh but that's that's
45:42because the brain for 24 hours, it's on.
45:45It's just on in different ways.
45:47So in terms of
45:49I want to get a little bit into lucid
45:52dreams because
45:55lucid dreaming is a state where the body
45:58in theory is asleep but the mind is able
46:01to maintain access to this kind of
46:05imagination network right
46:09explain for people who don't know and I
46:11have such a funny lucid dreaming story
46:13um my kids were homeschooled until high
46:16school And there's a lot of cool and
46:18quirky kids in the homeschool community.
46:20And there's this one kid, I won't name
46:22him, but if he's listening to this,
46:23hello. Um, and he was really into lucid
46:26dreams. And I remember thinking like,
46:27what an unusual thing for like a
46:2912-year-old kid to be like talking to
46:30all the other kids about. And I used to
46:32kind of like tease my kids about it.
46:34Like, oh, your friend and his lucid
46:35dreams, this is a thing is a thing.
46:39Explain what lucid dreaming is and why
46:41people are interested in accessing it.
46:43So, this is massive. Um,
46:46when I was asked by my publisher, this
46:48was uh in London, that they always
46:50wanted a book that was going to be bring
46:52in neuroscience, but don't smash
46:54people's dreams and magic, right? Just
46:56crush it, just actually ignite it
46:58because some things can be understood.
47:00Um, and I thought, and then, you know,
47:03there was going to be a chapter on lucid
47:04dreams. I was like, "Oh, lucid dreams."
47:06I ended up putting in two chapters uh in
47:08the book. Did you know about it ahead of
47:10time? I knew about it a little bit, but
47:11it was it was the thing I wanted to
47:13avoid. Yeah, it was out there. It was
47:14out there. It was the most vo. You go
47:16deep. I gave it two chapters. Nothing
47:18else got two chapters because that was
47:21refreshing for me, too. So, this this is
47:22a little bit of a long wind up on this,
47:24but I think people should know. For me,
47:26lucid dreaming, the first thing I was
47:27like, they're just faking it. I'm
47:29asleep. But, and so, but we have a way,
47:33you know. So, just like you put the
47:34three electrodes on the surface of the
47:35heart and you get a little electrical
47:37squiggle for an EKG, you know, all those
47:39television shows. Well, that's really
47:40the three nerves that are on the surface
47:42of the heart. So, they're generating a
47:44little bit electricity. You put 96 scalp
47:47electrodes and you record that, you get
47:48all these waveforms and beautiful
47:50patterns almost look like earthquakes.
47:52Well, there's something called a sleep
47:54spindle. You can't fake being asleep on
47:56that, you know? So, that's the first
47:58thing I was like, "All right, prove to
47:59me they had sleep spindles." Because in
48:01the epilepsy world, you know when
48:03they've fallen asleep because there's a
48:05sleep spindle, right? So, it's not just
48:07going to be somebody like, "I'm lucid
48:08dreaming. I'm in heaven. I'm flying over
48:10the moon. You might be, but you got to
48:13see that you're truly asleep when you're
48:14So, you're looking, just to clarify,
48:16you're looking for physiological
48:18evidence, electro sorry,
48:19electrophysiological evidence that this
48:22person by all of our diagnostic criteria
48:24for sleep is asleep, but what is going
48:28on when they're lucid dreaming? So, that
48:30that's the that's the basis because I
48:31don't want to get duped, you know, like
48:33that's not because then it then there's
48:34not, you know, it's not rigorous.
48:36Outside of that,
48:39um, the way I think about it is like
48:41when we talked about I don't think we're
48:44ever fully awake or fully asleep and you
48:46find these what I call liinal states
48:48going from the waking brain to the
48:50sleepd dreaming brain there's like a
48:51sleep entry period uh where the
48:53electricity overlaps that it's two
48:55different states and then when you wake
48:57up sleep exit there's a there's an
48:59there's a sort of an overlap period and
49:01I think that makes sense like you it's
49:04not going to be a millisecond that you
49:05change you know, frames of mind. It
49:07doesn't happen in nature. It doesn't
49:09happen in estuaries as rivers meet
49:11oceans, you know. Uh but lucid dreaming
49:13is in the middle. It's not in falling
49:15asleep. It's not waking up. It's you're
49:17in the middle of sleep couple hours in
49:19and you have a return of awareness that
49:22you are actually in a dream. Usually,
49:24it's in the rear view like h I had a
49:26dream. H I had a bad dream. But this is,
49:28oh, I'm dreaming while asleep. But how
49:32could you be asleep if you're thinking
49:33I'm dreaming? That's it's a thing. It's
49:35a thing. So, let this I'm going to set
49:37this up for you. So, uh the the person
49:41is there in a sleep lab. They've got the
49:44electrodes behind a glass is a sleep
49:46researcher. The electrodes are showing
49:48they're asleep. Part of the paralysis
49:50that happens in our body when we sleep
49:52temporarily. The parts that are spared
49:55are breathing and eye movements.
49:58So what what they do is they'll
50:01communicate and set up codes
50:05that hey 1 + 1 is two true or false and
50:08they'll they'll make eye movements as a
50:10way to communicate like Morris code.
50:12Wait a second the person sleeping is
50:14communicating with a sleep researcher
50:16with the sleep spindle. So it's the hour
50:18of sleep. So the way you test it is you
50:20you say to the patient, there are
50:23certain ways that you're going to
50:24indicate to me when you're lucid
50:26dreaming cuz they're conscious. So they
50:29come up with little like ways so that
50:31when they're sleeping they three eyeball
50:33movements to the left. Yes. That's crazy
50:36to me because I just assume that they
50:38were aware enough to be aware of their
50:40dream but they're still in the dream
50:42zone. Okay, that's an interesting point.
50:44But and al meaning they can hear from
50:46somebody outside of their dream. No,
50:48they are able to communicate to the
50:50researcher, I'm in it. We're in it.
50:53Let's lock in. That's wild to me. I
50:55always assume that it's like, oh, I now
50:57am in the matrix and I know I'm in the
50:58matrix versus not knowing. But they're
51:00actually standing at the bridge of both
51:02of those worlds. And so and that's, you
51:05know, I'm I'm a cancer surgeon. I'm a
51:07nurse surgeon. I'm going to drive down
51:08this 101, you know, to City of Hope.
51:11there. It's the the science on that is
51:13just so rigorous and undeniable that I
51:17think that's why I love this book is
51:18there's things you're going to think are
51:20no way and yes way and the things you're
51:23going to say like I assume that to be
51:24but no it's it's not true. So just stay
51:26with the lucid dreaming thing. That's
51:28one. Then number two it can be
51:31cultivated physiologically. We put
51:33people on some Alzheimer's medicine they
51:35come back and they say we're having a
51:36lot more lucid dreams. So whenever a
51:38chemical increases a dream pattern,
51:39there's malaria pills as well. You know
51:41what that's the chapter that I didn't
51:43write was effects of drugs on dreams
51:44because it was I couldn't find any
51:46patterns for it and you know and then so
51:48now what people can do is they can try
51:51to develop the ability to lucid dream
51:54and there's some techniques that are in
51:56the book that I'm not familiar with. And
51:58what I liked about it was they weren't
52:01just saying hey by the way last night I
52:03I I was lucid dreaming three times. They
52:04say come back in the lab, prove it
52:07you're asleep that with those sleep
52:08spindles and now communicate with our
52:10eye Morse code so we know you can hear
52:12us uh at a increased rate while asleep
52:16that you've actually developed the
52:18ability to lucid dream. I like that kind
52:20of hey prove it to us. Right. So what is
52:22the benefit of lucid dreaming? Well I
52:25would like to speak to that because one
52:26of the methods in here is yoga nidra is
52:28one of the methods for getting into
52:30lucid. Have you ever done yoga nidra? So
52:32that's what it is. Yoga nidra is putting
52:34your body to sleep while keeping your
52:36mind awake. And in the yoga nidra that I
52:38do she keeps saying do not sleep. Do not
52:40sleep. And she takes you through a whole
52:43and he describes it in the book. You go
52:45through an entire body calming down
52:48elaborate exercise. My yoga nidra it
52:50takes like 40 minutes like it's a thing
52:52and you're trying to get to that state.
52:54I never thought of it as I'm in the
52:57lucid dreaming phase but you get into
52:59this very sleepy strange you almost feel
53:03like your body can't move like it's
53:05asleep but you're still able to listen
53:08to her words. I haven't had like
53:10dreaming experience. I've fallen asleep
53:12sometimes, but that's not lucid
53:14dreaming. Mo my experience of this which
53:17again I never associate with lucid
53:19dreaming but I think there's some
53:21overlap here is that I have you know
53:22when I started as a teenager doing
53:24somatic energy work and people would lie
53:28on a massage table and they would often
53:31through relaxation quickly go into what
53:34I call it a still point which is that
53:36space in between awake and asleep where
53:39they're way off experiencing vision and
53:43emotion and heightened emotion and often
53:46memory, but they're still somewhat aware
53:49now.
53:51Not completely unconscious. What because
53:52they can and they kind of shift in and
53:54out of that space, sometimes going
53:56deeper into one, sometimes coming up and
53:58you can have intense emotional
54:00processing happen in there. And what I
54:02would say is that I don't know the exact
54:07details and the terminology but but for
54:09those who are listening if you look at
54:1224 hours and you start to see these
54:14things that are if if we get away from
54:17thinking about the brain as hardwired
54:19but more as you 100 billionish jellyfish
54:22that are creating these worlds of
54:24electricity that we can measure. It it
54:26it's easier to understand that during
54:29the day people with narcolepsy could
54:30just quickly fall asleep and have some
54:33some unique experiences, emotions,
54:35thoughts, and feelings during that time.
54:37That that's that shouldn't feel fringe.
54:39Or um if you haven't slept for two days,
54:42you're going to have some different
54:44feelings. In surgical training, we we we
54:46went 36-hour shifts three times a week.
54:48So sleep deprivation does things. Sleep
54:51entry is not a a millisecond phenomenon.
54:54uh Salvador Dolly wrote about it um as a
54:57as a as a place where he could extract
55:00clever ideas. Um lucid dreaming in the
55:03middle is the return of awareness. And
55:06what I like about it is this this is
55:08dope. The we remember how I mentioned
55:10the uh the dreaming brain, the dorsal
55:12lateral prefrontal cortex that does math
55:14is dampened and we see very few dream
55:16reports of math. That all fits. um
55:20people who lucid dream in fMRI machines
55:23that that that area has more activity.
55:26So it's consistent that awareness and
55:30the executive sense is returning in what
55:32they're describing but also in the brain
55:35activity like that's that's rigorous. Um
55:38and then people when they wake up like
55:41uh sleep paralysis you know a third of
55:43people have these like you know like
55:45they're being violated and their demons.
55:48It's so consistent that different
55:49cultures have set up the same story for
55:51it. And so and then and then you wake up
55:54and then and then you have different
55:56experiences. You can do, you know,
55:58transcend, you know, you can meditate
56:00and have different thoughts and
56:01creativity during the day. You can have
56:04too many espressos and have different.
56:05So if you just realize that in a 24-hour
56:08cycle, it's not on off. It's not
56:11hardwired. and that uh cognition
56:15whether it's the waking brain or or or
56:17the sleeping brain there it's fluid you
56:20know and I think that to me that's
56:21liberating that at at any time I might
56:24find a clever idea like I listen to a
56:26lot of rap music in my car and when the
56:28beats get into a certain rhythm I have
56:29different thinking um so I have my own
56:32rituals to try to find the nuggets that
56:35I can't sitting in front of a laptop
56:38with a triple espresso that's meant for
56:40a different type of thinking that's my
56:42take on. I want to touch more on that in
56:43a second. But to wrap lucid dreaming,
56:46have people reported any physiological
56:49differences from lucid dreaming to
56:51regular sleep, more energy, more
56:53clarity, emotional processing. Not a
56:55measurement, but surveys and reporting
56:57that it tends to be an overall positive
56:59experience. Some of the ways that people
57:01lucid dream and you have to disrupt
57:02sleep. So, you got to be a little
57:03careful about that. Like wake up before
57:05you would and then try to, you know, in
57:07the morning like an hour and a half
57:08earlier and then go back to bed, but
57:09don't let yourself fall fully asleep. So
57:11there's there's a certain luxury you
57:12have to have, right? If you're just
57:15trying to get the kids to school, you
57:17may not have that luxury or you may do
57:19on a vacation, but sleep disruption is a
57:21concern. It tends to be overall
57:22positive. It can be cultivated. It's
57:24rigorously proven. A third of people
57:27report it on their own. And I think it
57:30just it speaks to the brain and mind uh
57:32in a way that should excite people for
57:34what's still undiscovered. I wonder if
57:36it's also touching on the cusp of, you
57:38know, when you're having a nightmare or
57:39a bad dream and you wake yourself up,
57:43right? There's that in between space,
57:46right? Where I'm I'm able to say, right,
57:49where I'm able to say like, "Oh, I don't
57:51I don't want to see what's about to
57:52happen. I'm going to wake myself up."
57:54So, people who are lucid dreaming are
57:56possibly in that liinal space and able
57:58to kind of hold that. If I may, the when
58:01you're asleep, you're not I mean, if you
58:05smell smoke, you will wake up. The doors
58:07aren't completely shut to your mind. If
58:08you hear an alarm, you will wake up. So,
58:11perception is dampened. Uh, and there's
58:14a central structure called the phalamus
58:16that lets things filter up and it
58:17controls movements heading down. And if
58:19people have a little bit of injury to
58:21that area, for the first few months,
58:23they report more lucid dreaming.
58:25Interesting. So, the that filtration
58:27Yeah. Right. and that it there's a
58:29there's a a thermostat for arousal even
58:32when we're asleep because you won't
58:34sleep through a fire or a massive alarm
58:36going off so you're not completely shut
58:38down and the degree to that arousal uh
58:41maybe you're modulating it on your own
58:43maybe a night is waking you up like an
58:45alarm maybe lucid dreamers are have
58:47cultivated that but that's rigorous this
58:50is not uh I knew someone I I was having
58:52nightmares at the time and I would tell
58:54a friend that I was having it and she
58:55was like well just tell yourself not to
58:56do that Okay. So that's she was able to
58:59stop her nightmares like like that and
59:01just say I'm not doing that. So what I
59:03did find with that was people could
59:04search this is part of the therapy
59:07therap cognitive therapeutic techniques
59:10for nightmare disorders is actually
59:12rescripting a nightmare by repeatedly
59:14thinking of having a more favorable
59:16ending. I think come on but that's out
59:18there and that is effective. Um, so the
59:23waking mind can influence the dreaming
59:25mind even in the most wild type of dream
59:28called a nightmare. So I just I just
59:30like leaving it not not completely on
59:33off. Talk a little bit more about the
59:35importance of creative imagination and
59:38how we can increase problem solving and
59:41access to that creative imagination by
59:44utilizing our transition points in and
59:46out of sleep. For something to be
59:48creative, it has to be clever and
59:50useful. You can't be like, and I and I
59:52got a I had a creative idea. Has an
59:53electric car. What's already out there?
59:56You know, you got to like, you know what
59:57I mean? So, you got to be a you got to
59:58be a student. You got to know to be
1:00:01creative. You got to know all the dots
1:00:02before you can come up with new ways to
1:00:04connect the dots. So, I think when we
1:00:06talk about creativity, which is really
1:00:07the thing I value most in my life now,
1:00:09is idea generation. Okay, bad. I'm a
1:00:12specialist at bad idea generation and
1:00:15they happen for me uh I in uh in the
1:00:19morning because I have the luxury now of
1:00:21a bed and being able to set the time or
1:00:23not set the time to wake up but I don't
1:00:26before I go on Instagram I go to my
1:00:27notes app and whatever I'm thinking in
1:00:29the morning I did that this morning too
1:00:31I think I got up before I just stay in
1:00:32bed stay in bed and like five or six and
1:00:34I don't know whatever I was thinking
1:00:35during that time that was definitely
1:00:38different not necessarily psychedelic or
1:00:40way out there they weren't like you you
1:00:42know, purple elephants and stuff like
1:00:43that. But it's just a different way of
1:00:45thinking about the problems that I'm
1:00:47rolling around in my mind and then I and
1:00:49I always write things down when I get
1:00:51up. I I put down a few thoughts and then
1:00:53like at the end of the week I look at
1:00:54I'm like bad idea, bad idea, bad idea.
1:00:55That's interesting. And that and so idea
1:00:58generation toward creativity or or
1:01:01toward anything toward toward a
1:01:03relationship toward employment of any
1:01:05sort for me the sleep exit window is
1:01:07very important for that. Dolly wrote and
1:01:11so did Edison like in that movie uh
1:01:14Inception. Yeah. So that the falling
1:01:16chair thing that's how uh the feeling of
1:01:20falling will pop you out of uh your
1:01:23dream state uh falling asleep state. And
1:01:25that's what Dolly and Edison did. They
1:01:28put their notebooks which is which is
1:01:30cool, right? Cuz now you have the
1:01:32science to explain like Dolly Edison
1:01:33Aristotle. They put their notebook,
1:01:35they're working on something, and they'd
1:01:36have like a a key in their hand and a
1:01:38metal thing and they'd drift off to
1:01:40sleep and the the key would hit the
1:01:42metal pan. They'd wake up and they
1:01:43quickly write down what they're
1:01:44thinking. Like that's out there. Magic
1:01:46craftsmanship. You can you can get that
1:01:47on Amazon. Talking about Edison and this
1:01:50idea of of basically extending the
1:01:54window. Mhm. If you're not having your
1:01:57experience of dreams, it's potentially
1:02:00you're lowering your executive
1:02:04functioning side and so that you're able
1:02:06to harness a whole host of creative
1:02:09options and in that state you're able to
1:02:11really like you're just harvesting in
1:02:14there. Not for everyone and not every
1:02:17time, but it is possible and it can be
1:02:20cultivated. I want to talk about people
1:02:22who don't remember dreams or don't have
1:02:25access to any of this because like
1:02:26you're telling me all these things those
1:02:28things nothing's in there except like
1:02:30the that I did wrong you know over
1:02:33the last 20 years. Nothing's in there. I
1:02:36very very rarely remember my dreams. I
1:02:38know that I'm having them. I very very
1:02:40rarely very rarely remember them. When I
1:02:43do have them they're usually like
1:02:44horrible and bad like all these things.
1:02:46Even lucid dreaming I'm like there's
1:02:48nothing to go in there. So I have cancer
1:02:50patients and a lot of them didn't have a
1:02:52lot of dream recall in their 30s, 40s
1:02:54and 50s, but with when they face that uh
1:02:57end of life dreams
1:02:59arrive or shepherd them. Um they tend to
1:03:03be favorable. You would think they're
1:03:05going to have nightmares.
1:03:07Cancer surgery, cancer treatment equals
1:03:09nightmares. No, end of life. So then you
1:03:12have the nightmares that arrive for all
1:03:14children, even the ones that you know
1:03:16had the mildest upbringing. So the
1:03:19longitudinal pattern like right now,
1:03:21yeah, like uh there's been windows I'm
1:03:23like I'm just shut down, right? Uh but
1:03:27the pattern of dreaming and recall
1:03:30changes throughout life and um what I
1:03:34will say is that there are reports and
1:03:37people there are surveys, I don't have
1:03:39measurements for it, but people do uh
1:03:42have they have increased dream recall.
1:03:45They journal what they're thinking about
1:03:47going to bed. They slow down when they
1:03:49wake up. Does that mean every time? Does
1:03:51that mean every solution is there? But
1:03:53even if that's just a 5% capacity, isn't
1:03:55that great that it's free? It's
1:03:57personalized to you. And that's the
1:04:00ultimate biohack that we haven't ever
1:04:02thought about. And I I like leaving
1:04:04those windows open for people if not
1:04:07now, but maybe at some point in your
1:04:09life just to know like that's how that
1:04:11that's how that works. Dolly tried it.
1:04:12Oh, it didn't work for you. Okay. But
1:04:14you know that's that's there for those
1:04:17who are able to access it and even if
1:04:18you can't get to it now that a different
1:04:21time in your life dreams will serve
1:04:22different purposes. When I've had like
1:04:24the like wake up and like oh what am I
1:04:26thinking? It's always something like
1:04:27really insane like I'm falling off a
1:04:29cliff you know like it doesn't seem
1:04:31creative or useful or like what if this
1:04:33happened like I can't imagine and I
1:04:36again there's different kinds of brains.
1:04:38I can't imagine that being like oh
1:04:40that's so useful I'm going to make a
1:04:41painting of it. I don't think it I don't
1:04:42think it's metaphorical. Well, I don't
1:04:44think it's linear. I I think it's
1:04:46imagine the neurons that would be lost
1:04:48that serve a greater function if you
1:04:49didn't wild out in your dreams. You
1:04:52know, I think it's sort of a
1:04:53preservation of capacity, not a last
1:04:55night I had this dream and that equals
1:04:57this solution. Well, explain what's
1:04:59happening in problem solving. So, when I
1:05:02was a full-time writer, I used to say I
1:05:05would hit a wall in what I was doing and
1:05:07the best thing I could possibly do was
1:05:09take a walk without any stimulation or a
1:05:11nap. And once I had a nap, I would wake
1:05:14up. I'd be like, "Oh, it's so I need to
1:05:16go this way, not the other way." And
1:05:18there are surveys of people, it tends to
1:05:19be visual spatial like Tetris and video
1:05:21games, different things. Again, visual
1:05:24spatial components um that they'll nap
1:05:27or they'll use sleep as a way to those
1:05:30who nap did better on this. There's
1:05:31there's a lot of that out there. I'd
1:05:33encourage people to look into that. Um I
1:05:36can't prove it. I do believe it. Um but
1:05:39back to your point about creativity
1:05:42um that people are like oh dream sharing
1:05:44I was like the last thing I want to
1:05:45share are my dreams you know like that's
1:05:47not that's a wild space but I think it
1:05:49speaks to um a preservation of capacity
1:05:53I I've seen so much whether it's uh
1:05:56addiction cancer treatment cheop fog
1:06:00brain injury that uh brains are injured
1:06:05minds are not working but there is rehab
1:06:08for the injured. If the injured brain
1:06:11and the injured mind can recover through
1:06:14certain steps, why can't those steps be
1:06:17applied to all of us? And uh I think
1:06:20that's the that's the big theme of my
1:06:21first book is um that there is recovery
1:06:26of the injured brain and it doesn't grow
1:06:28new neurons. The neurons you have
1:06:30repurpose. It's not that like the liver
1:06:32respouts and fills the space. So, I like
1:06:35leaving all of that for people to know
1:06:38um that it's possible. It's possible.
1:06:40You know, that's I think that's the
1:06:41biggest message is that it's possible
1:06:44within some constraints and I'm trying
1:06:46to share those with you. I want to ask
1:06:49you both as a human and as a
1:06:51neurosurgeon.
1:06:53What is up with precognitive dreams?
1:06:56Because there there is a field of study
1:07:00and and you and I would agree it is not
1:07:03quantifiable. It's not qualifiable, but
1:07:05it's fascinating. Pre-cognitive meaning
1:07:07predict dreams that predict the future.
1:07:08People who who believe that there is a
1:07:11way to tap into some aspect of us that
1:07:15understands things that in many cases
1:07:17have not happened. So I'll give you a
1:07:19basic example and then I'll give you a
1:07:20more elaborate one. There is a case and
1:07:23there are several like this, but there's
1:07:25one case in particular of a man who
1:07:26dreamt all six lottery numbers that were
1:07:29needed to win the lottery. And he did
1:07:32win the lottery. Now, there may have
1:07:34been a million times before that he
1:07:35dreamt of six other numbers, but that
1:07:38time he dreamt of six and the
1:07:40probability is like one in like 600,000.
1:07:42Like it's it it's it's big but not
1:07:45impossible. Or he won then he he filled
1:07:47in the story backward. No, no, no. So
1:07:49there are things there are there are
1:07:50people who study this where it is
1:07:51documented, right? Where it's documented
1:07:53beforehand. So there's make friends with
1:07:55that guy. Right. Well, exactly. But
1:07:57there is but there's at least one
1:07:58unicorn has been seen.
1:08:00Correct. And there are and there are
1:08:01people Julia Mossbridge who um we're
1:08:04we're speaking to. She is a person who
1:08:07studies this. She studies can you kind
1:08:09of train the brain to have dreams that
1:08:13in many cases have windows into again
1:08:17the future. The other example which is
1:08:19more elaborate is Elizabeth Cone who we
1:08:21had on um our podcast and she was struck
1:08:24by lightning and she came back from two
1:08:28minutes on the pavement. She came back
1:08:30with a variety of she became
1:08:32sinesthetic. We're seeding his next
1:08:34book. And what she started having happen
1:08:37though was she would have a variety of
1:08:40she didn't call them dreams. She said
1:08:41that they felt different than dreams and
1:08:44that they felt like visions is what she
1:08:46called them. She started cataloging them
1:08:48and while there are many that did not
1:08:49come true, she cataloged them with
1:08:52timestamps and emailed herself and in
1:08:55several cases she was having a vision of
1:09:00an airplane crash that occurred. She she
1:09:02dreamt the Sully Sullenberger flight.
1:09:04She pictured once actually is quite the
1:09:06So she she dreamt that plane on the
1:09:10water and typed it out timestamped to
1:09:13herself. She would dream flights with
1:09:15the number of people killed. Like 320
1:09:18people were killed in a flight. And I'm
1:09:20seeing the letters WA. It's either TWWA
1:09:22or UWA. She's dreaming things that again
1:09:27are timestamped.
1:09:29We cannot get wrap our heads around this
1:09:32because unless you say there is a plane
1:09:34of consciousness of all things that were
1:09:36are and will be. Do you have any
1:09:40understanding of what precognitive
1:09:42dreaming might actually be? Yeah. The um
1:09:47there's a couple of things there. The a
1:09:49pre-cognitive dream is a is a fancy way
1:09:52of dreams that predict the future. It
1:09:54makes sense if it's a couple thousand
1:09:56years ago and you're lying down and
1:09:59physiologically you're thinking the
1:10:00brain is cold and the body is cold. Now
1:10:03after our discussion from measurements
1:10:05we know the body's a little cooler and
1:10:07the brain inside the skull is burning
1:10:10hot. So when it was assumed that was
1:10:12cold flesh and you'd wake up you're like
1:10:15I just went through you know the most
1:10:18exciting wild dangerous time of my life.
1:10:20It had to come from extranial from God's
1:10:23omen. That kind of makes sense to me. We
1:10:25just had the wildest experience because
1:10:27you think of sleep as a time of rest,
1:10:29right? It rest is not a inactivity. It's
1:10:32just a different type of activity. It's
1:10:34a car going forward and backwards. It
1:10:35doesn't like the brain brain's never
1:10:37off. Um so in that in that state people
1:10:40I think started to think okay wait the
1:10:42things I am dreaming about
1:10:45uh may offer me a clue to what is about
1:10:48to happen in a war or in a marriage and
1:10:50these sort of things. I I totally get
1:10:52that. Um but I don't have other than
1:10:56that dream enactment behavior that
1:10:57predicts Parkinson's when you you know
1:10:59when you attack your bed partner like
1:11:01that is the only precognitive dreaming
1:11:03pattern that predicts a future disease.
1:11:05I just don't have information on that.
1:11:07I'm not saying no. And I don't even know
1:11:08how we gather it because so much of it
1:11:10is like you said, it's it's unicorn
1:11:12experiences and and one unicorn is all
1:11:15you need. But I I think it would take
1:11:17for me somebody to like, you know, hold
1:11:19up the newspaper or whatever that and
1:11:21say, look, you know, later this year I
1:11:24just I would need to see it. Um and I
1:11:26haven't and I've searched for it because
1:11:28as I said in this book, I didn't want to
1:11:30poo poo things. I gave lucid dreaming
1:11:32two chapters. I gave pre-cognitive
1:11:34dreams are mentioned in there but I just
1:11:36don't know but yet the electrical
1:11:40strikes and savants let's leave that
1:11:42into a more absolutely provable so that
1:11:47so there are some things here why would
1:11:48people would think dreams are omens what
1:11:53you mentioned where she's writing things
1:11:55down and emailing her I don't have
1:11:57evidence of that can electricity change
1:12:00the brain and mind absolutely and so I
1:12:01just want to touch on that briefly. Um,
1:12:04if you do imagine that every neuron is a
1:12:08jellyfish and it generates its own
1:12:10electricity much like an electrical eel
1:12:11or like sodium channels and but glucose
1:12:13is used to separate ions like a battery
1:12:16and when you know like lithium is used
1:12:18for bipolar disorder. It's a molecular
1:12:20battery. The electricity that's
1:12:22generated uh creates creates a mind
1:12:26creates consciousness. Sometimes the
1:12:28depression can get so bad that at some
1:12:30elite centers we will place electrodes
1:12:33on the surface of the scalp not to
1:12:35measure but to activate a seizure a mini
1:12:37lightning bolt if you will and they wake
1:12:40up in a few weeks and they're lifted out
1:12:42of depression. So I I'm trying to leave
1:12:44people with an understanding electricity
1:12:47lightning bolts the unicorns for sants
1:12:50we've seen it. Um electricity is used to
1:12:53lift depression with shock therapy.
1:12:54There's some issues with that in the
1:12:56past. We've seen it. And then if I could
1:12:59expand it to be electrochemical, those
1:13:01uh those uh you know those those
1:13:05neurons, they're spraying chemicals at
1:13:07each other. And the thing that's really
1:13:09got me thinking about things lately is
1:13:11how is it somebody can think about self
1:13:13harm to the point of suicide and they
1:13:15take a sniff of ketamine. And that's the
1:13:18treatment in hospitals. if you come in
1:13:20with suicidal ideiation and and the
1:13:22mechanism to set it up, they'll bring
1:13:24you in the hospitals and they'll give
1:13:26you ketamine and it'll stop you from
1:13:28wanting to kill yourself and like so I'm
1:13:30trying to understand what's in that
1:13:32chemical, what it's doing inside the
1:13:34brain, how it's changing the the
1:13:36electricity, lightning bolts to shock
1:13:38therapy to sniffing ketamine. Um, that's
1:13:41all science. It can feel like it's
1:13:44overlapping, but that's real real. And
1:13:46for us and sort of what we get to do on
1:13:48this podcast is find that intersection
1:13:50between like what's the facts, what's
1:13:52the fantasy, right? And I think one of
1:13:54the things that you know you said that
1:13:56we're generating consciousness. Many
1:13:58people believe that consciousness is
1:14:00this thing out here, right? That our
1:14:02mind and brain are having access to and
1:14:05sort of pulling, you know, from some
1:14:07sort of like quantum network. I if that
1:14:10were the case, I could see people
1:14:12saying, "Oh, yeah, pre-cognitive dreams.
1:14:14makes sense because we're traveling
1:14:16outside of this conscious experience as
1:14:18you say behind the skull to be able to
1:14:21access something that's already out
1:14:23there. I mean, it's out there. Fair. Uh
1:14:25they asked me about that on NPR and to
1:14:28my understanding is reality is reality
1:14:30and we all have different sensors for
1:14:32it. Like, you know, our dog is super
1:14:36smart. She can smell when you're being
1:14:38disingenuous like, "Hey, come here for a
1:14:40treat." She's like, "You're going to try
1:14:41to put me in the cage and leave for the
1:14:43She knows." And it's like, "How do you
1:14:44know that?" Like, so, uh, instinct,
1:14:48hunch, uh, mamlian brain, animals, uh,
1:14:53the way that wolves mourn. I mean,
1:14:55there's something there. And so, I I try
1:14:58not to think of consciousness. It's It's
1:15:00a tough one because I can't tell you who
1:15:02is conscious, but I can I can't tell you
1:15:04when the brain is working, fine. But I
1:15:06can tell you when the brain's not
1:15:07working, it has no electricity. So
1:15:10whether the electricity that's measured
1:15:13and the experiences I've had I remember
1:15:17um are I don't think that's required to
1:15:20say that there's consciousness you know
1:15:22so that's a it's just a big space but I
1:15:24see it in species you see it you see it
1:15:27in animals you see it in people um but I
1:15:30only thing I can comment about
1:15:31consciousness is you know when we put
1:15:34people under anesthesia or when people
1:15:36have brain death there's no
1:15:38consciousness and that if there is
1:15:40something external that we are
1:15:42potentially perceiving, it requires
1:15:44electrical activity within our skull.
1:15:46Okay. So, I just there was just a huge
1:15:48article in um I think it was in Harper's
1:15:52about a woman whose son was in a
1:15:54horrible car accident and he was
1:15:55declared to be in what we used to call a
1:15:57vegetative state. It's a rough word, but
1:15:59yeah. Right. But there's now a new
1:16:01designation that they're saying that
1:16:03there is
1:16:05perception and there's perceptive
1:16:06ability. And this woman for 39 years has
1:16:09taken care of this son of hers who many
1:16:12people would have said, "Pull the plug."
1:16:14Um, was there electrical activity in his
1:16:16brain? Well, so this is the thing. Back
1:16:18when the accident happened, they weren't
1:16:19even examining these things. Can you
1:16:22talk a little bit about what's changed
1:16:24even in the time that you've been a
1:16:25surgeon in terms of our ability to say
1:16:29we're going to pull the plug on this
1:16:30person or there may be perceptual and
1:16:34perceptual ability? That was a hard one.
1:16:36Yeah, it's a it's a big question. It's
1:16:37an important one. Um the first one to
1:16:40start with is locked in syndrome. I
1:16:42write about it in something else. So
1:16:44you're you're completely there, but all
1:16:46you can do is move your eyes much like
1:16:47in lucid dreaming, right? So I try to
1:16:50and so you're like you're there. And in
1:16:53the beginning when they were writing
1:16:54about it, you know, they would say the
1:16:55person's not moving, right? You you
1:16:57know, they'd start an IV and they
1:16:58wouldn't flinch. I mean, how many people
1:17:00were declared dead when they weren't?
1:17:04Your heart can beat for a few days even
1:17:06when there's no blood flow growing into
1:17:08going into your skull. It's got
1:17:09automaticity. And if we put you on a
1:17:12breathing machine, the heart can go for
1:17:14a little while. So death, this is a big
1:17:17topic. Uh death I don't believe death is
1:17:20cardiac death. I I believe I believe
1:17:22death is uh uh the electrol electrical
1:17:26silencing of brain activity. And there
1:17:29are some rigorous I need some time for
1:17:31this one. There are some rigorous uh
1:17:34science papers coming out about older
1:17:36folks who say don't resuscitate me. It's
1:17:39called do DNR. They've got those surface
1:17:41electrodes going on. The heart is
1:17:44stopped. The little EKG is gone. The
1:17:46pulse is gone. But for 3 minutes after,
1:17:49which would be technically cardiac death
1:17:51and time of death, there's an explosion
1:17:53of brain activity. Whoa. It doesn't go
1:17:56out in a whimper. The last thing the
1:17:57dreaming uh the brain does is just
1:17:59launch all the neurotransmitters, launch
1:18:02all the electricity. Now, so for some
1:18:06people who are resuscitated and they see
1:18:09I saw my whole life story spanning
1:18:12across, it's consistent. Now, the
1:18:14near-death experienc experiences right
1:18:16now, now we know that a couple of
1:18:18minutes afterwards, you're having the
1:18:19wildest your brain is your brain's on
1:18:21fire. So if you're resuscitated and you
1:18:24say, "Look, I saw my whole life pass
1:18:26before me." The, you know, expansive
1:18:28memories go, they meet God. Yeah. But if
1:18:30if it makes sense because your heart
1:18:33your brain dies a few minutes after your
1:18:35heart dies, that's that's new. That's
1:18:37like the philosopher. And and what I
1:18:39like about it is those electrical
1:18:40patterns are like wild dreams. So maybe
1:18:43death is one last dream. Like so that's
1:18:45romantic. That's poetic. But I've got
1:18:46measurements for you in the book and
1:18:49it's searchable. uh the Guardian did a
1:18:51whole piece on that. Yeah. So that's one
1:18:54space. So when you talk about death,
1:18:56that itself is we we may have gotten it
1:18:58wrong thinking death is when the heart
1:19:00stops beating. Um then back to uh the
1:19:04stages of brain injury. Um
1:19:09death death is the way they used to
1:19:11figure it out is there's no electrical
1:19:12activity. So those people with locked in
1:19:14syndrome that that are totally there but
1:19:16can only move their eyes they would put
1:19:18the surface electrodes and whoa this is
1:19:20wild. So they were like okay these
1:19:22aren't the people these people are not
1:19:24on the brink of death. Um and then then
1:19:28the other definition of death is they
1:19:30started putting dye we we used to shoot
1:19:32dye into the corateed and when the when
1:19:36there is no blood flow going from the
1:19:37four arteries from your heart to your to
1:19:39your skull. The lack of blood flow
1:19:42equals uh brain death. The lack of
1:19:45electrical activity equals brain death.
1:19:48So, those are some there's some very
1:19:49clear things there and that fits right
1:19:52because um that that's that's what we're
1:19:56seeing with those people whose hearts
1:19:58have died and there's still electrical
1:19:59activity. So, likely brain death is a
1:20:02few minutes after cardiac death. So,
1:20:04those precious moments when you're
1:20:05walking away from a loved one, maybe
1:20:07hold on a little longer. So, that's
1:20:09that's over here. then you can the brain
1:20:12can be injured in so many different ways
1:20:15and that I think we were getting it
1:20:16wrong for so long with these persistent
1:20:18states that uh depending on where the
1:20:21injury was. It's not just that they're
1:20:23not moving and it's not just that you
1:20:25think they're not perceiving uh that
1:20:27there are different types of uh brain
1:20:29injury and there's stages of coma,
1:20:33stages of brain injury, stages of
1:20:35perception. And to better understand how
1:20:38how that works now is we're using FM
1:20:41we're using MRIs and the electrical
1:20:43activity and they have a better sense of
1:20:46uh stay with me is that if in the stock
1:20:49there's a reticular activating system
1:20:51that does conscious if there's an injury
1:20:53to the if the if the brain's like a
1:20:54mushroom and there's a stock there's an
1:20:56injury to the stock um that leans more
1:21:00that there cannot be perception or
1:21:02activity if there are injuries to the
1:21:05the cortical canopy. I mean, you you you
1:21:09definitely you can have perception and
1:21:10emotion and experience even though
1:21:12you're not moving. So, they're it's not
1:21:15it's not a field I'm in. I'm not in
1:21:16neurology. I'm in neurosurgery. But
1:21:18that's a great question that that uh
1:21:21those are the lessons we're learning
1:21:22now. And then if I can different spots
1:21:25of the brain being dampened or activated
1:21:27and then the resultant mind that happens
1:21:30kind of reminds you just a 24-hour cycle
1:21:32of waking and sleeping is that is never
1:21:35fully on, never fully off but but
1:21:37different symphonies are having their
1:21:38chance at creating the mind. That's what
1:21:41Dr. Bruce Grayson talks about in terms
1:21:43of the filtering in a near-death
1:21:45experience. He says the filtering that
1:21:46we carry out in normal everyday life is
1:21:49totally altered and therefore maybe it's
1:21:52an explosion of brain activity that
1:21:54people are just having experiences and
1:21:56there are so many commonalities right
1:21:59through those experiences which is
1:22:00fascinating like and he says they're all
1:22:02often cultural like I'm going to cross a
1:22:05bridge or a river and that depends on
1:22:08where you are in the world which is
1:22:10interesting because sleep exit people
1:22:11have come up for that negative
1:22:13experience they've come up with
1:22:14overlappinging stories based on where
1:22:16they're at. Um, and near-death
1:22:19experiences, the the tunnel is more
1:22:22likely from low blood flow to the optic
1:22:24arteries where so when people that was
1:22:27more mechanical. Interesting, right?
1:22:28That was more mechanical. Well, he was
1:22:30also saying if people have a near-death
1:22:31experience and they've never lived near
1:22:32a tunnel, they wouldn't know what a
1:22:34tunnel is. So often they'll be like,
1:22:35"Oh, things were closing in." But that's
1:22:37interesting because it could be a visual
1:22:39which is also there's a form of
1:22:40meditation that involves allowing the
1:22:43focal like that your focal like visual
1:22:45field closes in the patients get low
1:22:47blood pressure the operating other areas
1:22:50the concern is not just that the brain
1:22:52is not going to get enough blood flows
1:22:53but that that the eye isn't so I think
1:22:56that the the tunnel is likely how the
1:22:59how the vision collapses with low blood
1:23:02flow that feels more mechanical to me
1:23:04like but the but we have to make meaning
1:23:06of it because we have a brain. Well,
1:23:07we're going to keep trying. Yeah. Well,
1:23:09yeah. Yeah. Actually, meaning making is
1:23:10a fascinating topic, but and then the my
1:23:13whole life played out expansive memory.
1:23:17Uh, you know, you know, like a film
1:23:20strip of their life that kind of is con
1:23:23seems we're just, you know, we're just
1:23:26vibing that seems consistent with the
1:23:28robust brain electrical activity that
1:23:31happens in the few minutes before you
1:23:33actually have brain death. like that cuz
1:23:35most people think well wait you're dying
1:23:36why would you have such a rich
1:23:37experience but brain death is the brain
1:23:40doesn't whimper into the night because
1:23:42you're never going to eat chocolate
1:23:43again you might as well have something
1:23:44positive happen yeah this is the time to
1:23:46indulge if you put on again just vibing
1:23:49but if you put on your philosophical hat
1:23:52like what do you think that purpose of
1:23:53that explosion is to look across our
1:23:56lives like that a lot of people say they
1:23:58come back and they're like softened in a
1:24:00way their their heart is broken open
1:24:01they have huge spiritual ual changes
1:24:04where they were once aggressive like
1:24:06what what do you think that's about? I I
1:24:08I would say um that intense experiences
1:24:12there's this learning I think can happen
1:24:14like sort of glacially and then they can
1:24:16be sort of rock bottom and like instant
1:24:17life-changing events and transformations
1:24:19whether it's lightning bolts or
1:24:21something that happened with your child
1:24:22who gets sick you know that's there that
1:24:24so people who have that experience and
1:24:26come back the that they're transformed
1:24:29just makes sense to me that's that's
1:24:31that's like how could how tell me the
1:24:34one that isn't transformed the the you
1:24:38know the other part is it's a little
1:24:40trickier about
1:24:43you know what happens with
1:24:45with death and how people react to that.
1:24:49It's you know I don't have a I don't
1:24:51have a I don't have a a firm
1:24:52understanding of that um because a lot
1:24:55of the patients I'm taking care of with
1:24:58a few exceptions they're either injured
1:25:00or sed or have asked to be sedated
1:25:04during that process. So you you know
1:25:06it's not a it's not always a clear
1:25:08thing. Yeah. And except that I I did
1:25:10have a patient with locked in syndrome
1:25:12and because
1:25:14because they don't feel pain, they
1:25:16didn't require the degree of anesthesia
1:25:19or or or or you know morphine during
1:25:22their time of exit. So what I've tried
1:25:24to do is look for those unicorns and
1:25:27stories and and and answer it from that
1:25:30point of view. But the transformation of
1:25:32the human mind with certain experiences
1:25:35um I think speaks again to that that
1:25:38cognition and the mind created from this
1:25:41flesh because it's electrical
1:25:44electrically based it it can be jolted
1:25:46into a different way of thinking and
1:25:49that there's there's evidence from
1:25:52people hitting rock bottom with
1:25:53addiction. There's evidence of
1:25:55heartbreak. There's evidence of my
1:25:58patients with the children pass away.
1:25:59There's evidence of lightning bolts and
1:26:01savants, even if it's a few. There's
1:26:03evidence of shock therapy where they
1:26:05just they're lifted out of depression.
1:26:06It's like, what are we doing? The flesh
1:26:08is the same. And then now with ketamine,
1:26:10it's like what is this thing that the
1:26:13the brain structure is the same?
1:26:15Actually, the electricity is the same,
1:26:17but the mind that comes from that flesh
1:26:19from the same electrical pattern is it
1:26:21it does not want to hurt themselves. So,
1:26:23I I like leaving those pieces open for
1:26:26people to connect. It's interesting to
1:26:27me. I would have assumed that the for
1:26:29the mind to change some of the
1:26:31electrical pattern would have changed.
1:26:33No, that's that. Okay, that's a big
1:26:35question too. So,
1:26:37so
1:26:39some people have injured brains and
1:26:41healthy minds and some people have like
1:26:44beautiful flesh brain like the just
1:26:46beautiful the just the anatomy and
1:26:48architecture is pristine and they don't
1:26:50have healthy minds and then however you
1:26:53want to define that these are just
1:26:54concepts and then some people have are
1:26:57not doing well they're they're mentally
1:26:59not doing well um and some people are
1:27:02doing fantastic but the the electrical
1:27:05patterns.
1:27:07Stay with me. They don't really predict
1:27:09mood and affect. They predict are you
1:27:12awake, are you on triple espresso, are
1:27:14you meditating, are you asleep. So they
1:27:16give us like the global states, but the
1:27:19individual experience within those,
1:27:20which is coming back to what you said,
1:27:22if you're having a rough day, you the
1:27:24dreaming process, all the electricity is
1:27:26going to look the same in our brains,
1:27:27but you had a rough day. The dream that
1:27:29your brain conjures is is going to be
1:27:32different. Um, so that's that's that's I
1:27:35love thinking about things like that.
1:27:37Can you tell us what you've learned
1:27:39about how to influence our dreams?
1:27:42Waking mind feeds dreaming mind.
1:27:44Dreaming mind feeds waking mind to
1:27:46different degrees. Um, obviously you add
1:27:48imagination to it. Obviously you add
1:27:50memory to it. Um that said the the
1:27:53people who write about this the most is
1:27:55during the sleep entry period that the
1:27:57things they try to think about and I
1:27:59think Dolly wrote Dolly is the best
1:28:01example of this but for me sleep exit is
1:28:03a better time for me to hold on to fresh
1:28:05thoughts or idea generate but people do
1:28:08not every time not every person not
1:28:11every stage of our life they uh there
1:28:14are consistent reports that the things
1:28:16they toggle in their mind as they fall
1:28:18asleep can sometimes uh when you have
1:28:21the aha moment the next day. It's not
1:28:22really an aha moment. You're the
1:28:24imagination network was working on it
1:28:26through the dreaming process. So that's
1:28:29that's possible and that's where
1:28:31journaling comes in. When I was younger
1:28:33in my 30s, I remember you know removing
1:28:38removing removing like a cancer from
1:28:40anatomy and it's a very visual thing.
1:28:42It's like scuba diving and navigating
1:28:44and flying spaceships. It's you don't
1:28:46know what's around the it's a visual
1:28:48spatial thing. I always used to look at
1:28:49the brain scans of the tumors within the
1:28:51brain and before I go to bed just little
1:28:53you know pop it in my brain a little bit
1:28:55and I don't I mean I never and the
1:28:57question I got asked was do you dream of
1:28:59doing surgery never not single time but
1:29:01I have a lot of visual spatial dreams
1:29:03driving fast flying fast so you're
1:29:06navigating it's always visual spatial
1:29:08interesting and then awkward social
1:29:09things and well I guess the question is
1:29:11also is that why you became a
1:29:13neurosurgeon right like which comes
1:29:14first you know no I mean I've no I mean
1:29:17I just fumbled forward yeah No, but I'm
1:29:19saying you have the predisposition. Like
1:29:20I couldn't like I went to graduate
1:29:22school for neuroscience, but like I had
1:29:24shaky hands. I wasn't going to be a
1:29:25surgeon, right? There's something about
1:29:27you that made you a person who can
1:29:29navigate this way. Well, fair. Maybe I
1:29:31was fair. Um, when I got to medical
1:29:34school, I wasn't really interested. I
1:29:36didn't for me, again, not to be negative
1:29:39or disparage anybody, I didn't really
1:29:40get like I'm going to write you a
1:29:42prescription and a prescription that
1:29:45somebody else could write. And the first
1:29:47time I saw surgery, I was like, "Wow."
1:29:49First, this person does that for you.
1:29:52And then there were some surgeons in big
1:29:54big centers where they could do a
1:29:56surgery that other surgeons couldn't. So
1:29:58I was like, "Wait, your hands are
1:29:59medicine that doesn't exist anywhere
1:30:01outside of you?" Like to me, I it went
1:30:02that way for me. And then I was like,
1:30:04"Oh, I get all this visual spatial
1:30:06stuff, but I don't want to look at
1:30:08laboratories." And like I I'm not that I
1:30:10I mean I I did enough of it to become a
1:30:13neurosurgeon, but I like I like
1:30:15performing under pressure visual
1:30:17spatial. Um that and whether I dream of
1:30:23that now after going into it or maybe
1:30:25those are my dreams that made you go,
1:30:26hey, you could be you could be good at
1:30:27this. Um did you play sports growing up?
1:30:30Not really. I just got in a lot of
1:30:32trouble. I used to, you know, we used to
1:30:34like I I I grew up here in Los Angeles.
1:30:37I didn't play sports growing up, but um
1:30:39from a young age I was good with my
1:30:41hands, with fixing things. Uh I like
1:30:44driving fast. I liked, you know, you
1:30:46know, I like pressure situations. And
1:30:48you select for that like Oh, yeah. So,
1:30:50this is the thing with all due respect,
1:30:51the thing that we say about people who
1:30:53went to med school for neurosurgery.
1:30:55They're the they're like fighter pilots.
1:30:57You have to be so incredibly confident.
1:30:59If you don't like that thrill, you're
1:31:00gonna So, first the bifurcation is very
1:31:03straight in in in medical school. It's
1:31:05procedures or not. Yeah. And then and
1:31:08most is not and then it's what I say is
1:31:10first thing that you want to know and
1:31:11then it's dangerous procedures or not
1:31:14dangerous procedures. A lot of not
1:31:15dangerous procedures, right? You're
1:31:16holding life in your hands. Yeah. Or um
1:31:19Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Actually. Yeah.
1:31:21For sure. And I it brings out something
1:31:23in me that I think um
1:31:27I think other responsibilities would not
1:31:29have. I think I would have been
1:31:32um I I think I would have been a
1:31:34disinterested
1:31:36XYZ. Yeah. But in this thing because
1:31:39it's because it's intense, it engages me
1:31:42and I and it and it gave me uh it gave
1:31:44me a sense of identity and a and a
1:31:46masterclass in humanity. So the career
1:31:48has definitely shaped me. It's also a
1:31:50huge responsibility to have that role in
1:31:53someone's life. You know, I think that's
1:31:54the thing that often goes unsaid is I
1:31:56don't know where I was just in London.
1:31:57And I said, "I've met seven over 7,000
1:32:00people." And I don't mean just like,
1:32:02"Hey, peas." It's met them, shook hands,
1:32:05engaged them in some capacity. Out of
1:32:08those, a few thousand I've operated on.
1:32:10And that's a longer interaction. And
1:32:12just think about meeting somebody in
1:32:14their time of crisis and in about 20
1:32:16minutes, they're signing over two weeks
1:32:19from now, one week from now. Go ahead
1:32:20and open my skull. I gave you
1:32:22permission. I want you to do that. That
1:32:24you develop. uh there's a there's a
1:32:27master class there for someone who's
1:32:28wanting to look at it. And so while I'm
1:32:3152 now, while I was, you know, from 35
1:32:35to, you know, the last 25 years really,
1:32:38um, I was always enjoying that part,
1:32:41holding on to those nuggets and and I
1:32:45realized, um, that the craft, the
1:32:47physical craft is a thrill for me, you
1:32:50know, uh, but it was also, uh, where
1:32:53else would I have gotten all this
1:32:54content for this publishing career that
1:32:55last started five years ago, right? like
1:32:58where you where you where you going to
1:32:59where you going to get the dots. Um so I
1:33:01I'm thrilled um yeah I'm thrilled. Um
1:33:06I'm thrilled about how my life turned
1:33:07out. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I also
1:33:09think about and this kind of relates to
1:33:10the conversation about dreaming and what
1:33:12we dream about. You know, I'm thinking
1:33:14also what would your brain have done a
1:33:16thousand years ago, 5,000 years ago?
1:33:18What would his brain as a writer and a
1:33:20creative have been like? And it's kind
1:33:22of like dreams are this window into like
1:33:24the wheel bow and arrow. I glad you
1:33:26wrote about that like kinesthetic
1:33:28creativity like I mean I know we think
1:33:30of creativity as like Pixar or whatever
1:33:32like Hollywood which is important but
1:33:34like isn't like like tying a knot like
1:33:37the the most creative thing ever wildly
1:33:39creative right or the wheel or a bow and
1:33:42arrow like so maybe maybe that it was
1:33:45creativity that led us to out compete or
1:33:48whatever that was with the Neanderthalss
1:33:50because they had bigger brains they had
1:33:52more of that cortical canopy. So maybe
1:33:55maybe it was a wild dream life. Maybe it
1:33:57was more imagination that led us to come
1:33:59up with tools and the and the way and
1:34:02sometimes with surgery it just feels
1:34:03like it's being released. It's not step
1:34:06one, step two. it's a it's a performance
1:34:08and then you start to look at dance and
1:34:10you start to look at these things and
1:34:12then maybe it was kinesthetic creativity
1:34:15uh that led to the earlier tools and
1:34:17they have oh they got a bunch of stuff
1:34:18about they putting people in brain scans
1:34:20with learning how to tie knots and undo
1:34:22knots like it's some complex stuff going
1:34:25on with making knots uh out of rope and
1:34:28maybe that's what our ancestors got
1:34:30right and that's why we're I don't think
1:34:32it's maybe at all creativity is for me
1:34:34any way of looking at something
1:34:37differently and having an outcome that
1:34:40then is designed by a different approach
1:34:42to the problem whether and applied
1:34:44creativity. A lot of athletes talk about
1:34:46the creativity in their sport and that
1:34:49sort of translike state that they can
1:34:52enter once they've developed the
1:34:53biomechanics of the sport then after
1:34:56mastery. Correct. Yeah. And they have
1:34:58they as a group they have more lucid
1:35:00dreams. Interesting. Really the whole
1:35:02visual spatial thing is leans lucid
1:35:04dreaming more nightmares and creative
1:35:06people. Those are links. Yeah. And you
1:35:07also have to look at sort of what are
1:35:08the other factors? Who are the kind of
1:35:10people who are creative? You could
1:35:11actually be seeing that people who are
1:35:13highly emotional, right? Are having
1:35:15these kinds of uh Yeah. Or you're in an
1:35:17environment where your dad just hooked
1:35:18you up with the right job, right? Um
1:35:20yeah, there's a lot of factors there.
1:35:22But visual spatial
1:35:24uh kinesthetic movement creativity dance
1:35:28athletes lucid dreaming there's some
1:35:30clustering there. That's that's an
1:35:32interesting conversation point. You know
1:35:34can we talk about AI for a minute? And
1:35:36it's have you seen any ways that AI is
1:35:40changing dreaming. There are some
1:35:41companies that try and influence with
1:35:43scent or with images or with light and
1:35:45then also how they're trying to map the
1:35:48brain to see if they can interpret what
1:35:50people are dreaming about. I'm not an
1:35:52expert at this. This is a there's a
1:35:53chapter on this, but there are some very
1:35:56u concerning uh development. So, um we
1:36:02talked about the phalamus being a filter
1:36:04like you're not you're never off off,
1:36:05right? And so what happens is whether
1:36:08it's an alarm or it's a smell, they're
1:36:11trying to like have people smell
1:36:14something and they play a certain sound
1:36:16or they actually show a commercial like
1:36:18like Burger King was involved in this
1:36:20kind of marketing strategy to see if
1:36:21it'll change their sales behavior when
1:36:23they're awake. Whoa, that's terrifying.
1:36:25Yeah, it is a little bit right. And now
1:36:26we got all these gizmos and things that
1:36:28recording. You got the Apple Watch or
1:36:29the sleep thing that it wouldn't be a
1:36:31stretch in the next handful of years.
1:36:33I'm not talking like this isn't like
1:36:35Blade Runner, you know, 30 years from
1:36:37now, but like if they start to figure
1:36:38out when you're in deeper sleep versus
1:36:40REM sleep, cuz there are some patterns
1:36:42that they could pulse a certain sound or
1:36:44different thing that would influence,
1:36:46not control, but influence your
1:36:48behavior. I think that's a space that
1:36:49needs to be looked at. You may know
1:36:51about this already. It's called neural
1:36:52rights. Like people are like, "Hey, that
1:36:54data is even more precious than the
1:36:56daytime data cuz our guard is down."
1:36:58Yeah. Uh well, and I was also thinking
1:36:59there are, you know, there's um kind of
1:37:02nervous system regulator devices that
1:37:04sort of throughout the day give
1:37:05intermittent, you know, kind of buzzing
1:37:07to try and sort of train the nervous
1:37:09system. So, I wouldn't be surprised. I
1:37:11mean, I would just like to stay asleep
1:37:13so I can remember my dreams. I mean, you
1:37:15can imagine this is the Black Mirror
1:37:17version of it, but I I actually don't
1:37:18think it's so far off that someone could
1:37:22give consent to have their device play
1:37:24sound auditory cues that could link to a
1:37:27commercial in their waking life, making
1:37:29them more predisposed to want that
1:37:31commercial because, as you said, we're
1:37:34always, you know, the waking life and
1:37:36and the dreaming life are merged in some
1:37:39way. So if we experience something in
1:37:41our dream life, that marketing strategy
1:37:43is out there. It's in the second to last
1:37:45chapter of this book. That marketing
1:37:47strategy is already being tested. That's
1:37:49not like tested, but they're not like
1:37:51widespread. People can sign up and sort
1:37:54of agree to this in their home. Not
1:37:56sufficiently. It was it's has advanced
1:37:59sufficiently to where different
1:38:02neuroscience societies across different
1:38:04countries have tried to come up with
1:38:05like the ten commandments of please
1:38:07don't do this. And so it's not it's not
1:38:10see that's the whole that's what lucid
1:38:13dreaming you think it's going to be woo
1:38:14woo it's not this thing sounds like
1:38:16you're a writer trying to come up with
1:38:17your next pitch. No like this is already
1:38:19happening. So I think that's why it's
1:38:21important to have the language and the
1:38:24understanding in how to decipher a lot
1:38:27of this neuro stuff that's coming our
1:38:29way. There was an episode of Black
1:38:31Mirror where a woman is basically put
1:38:34into a state um and to be brought out of
1:38:37that state, you have to pay the company,
1:38:39but if you don't pay at the highest
1:38:41level, you get commercial breaks. So,
1:38:43she's in the middle of her life. She's
1:38:46like working with a kid. No, I know what
1:38:48you mean. So, this 8-year-old at school
1:38:49is like, "My parents got into a fight."
1:38:51And she's like, "If you're considering
1:38:52depression, please." And they're like,
1:38:53"What?" She's like, "Are you considering
1:38:55suicide?" And he's like, "I'm 8 years
1:38:57old." And the notion was when they go to
1:38:59the companies, the company's like, "Oh,
1:39:00you wanted the ad free. You're going to
1:39:02need to pay more." I love that. It was
1:39:05Tracy Ellis Ross plays the executive,
1:39:07but and it's horrible, but also it's
1:39:09like, "Oh my gosh, that's not a world I
1:39:11could imagine that we live in." It's
1:39:12like I watch Tuby and they've got, you
1:39:14know, it's free, but the commercials are
1:39:16like a part of it. So, if you if you
1:39:18don't have resources That's right.
1:39:20you're going to you're going to end up
1:39:22the brain training that's constantly
1:39:23interrupted. But what what we were what
1:39:25what this but what this brings up is for
1:39:28people who let's say need money right we
1:39:30already know people sell blood people
1:39:33sell their eggs they sell their sleep
1:39:35they sell their womb like are you
1:39:37selling data right I mean we just took a
1:39:40dark turn um I don't think it's dark I
1:39:43just think it's I think it's you know we
1:39:46talked about brain death we talked about
1:39:47you know I just think it's that's what
1:39:50this is why I love what I do because we
1:39:52couldn't have this conversation talking
1:39:54about knees and hearts and and my gut
1:39:57microbiome like I'm not again I'm not
1:39:59disparaging them but it it's it's a very
1:40:01narrow lane from which to understand
1:40:04humanity whereas we've been all over
1:40:07today I mean I think so it's not dark to
1:40:08me it's just it's exciting and the
1:40:10darkness for me is the concerned element
1:40:13the exploitive element and basically the
1:40:16corporations that are going to roll this
1:40:17out do not have a great track record in
1:40:20safeguarding human well-being and and I
1:40:23would say that is not dark, but that is
1:40:26uh that is right on point. They they
1:40:29can't be left to uh to be kind. Yeah.
1:40:33No, they can't be left to self police
1:40:35that. And so just just to return the uh
1:40:40you're not completely out when you're
1:40:42dreaming. You're not completely
1:40:43paralyzed when you're dreaming. And the
1:40:46it it seems to be that we're in a more
1:40:50uh more perceptive or more vulnerable to
1:40:55suggestions
1:40:56that are made to our ears and and nose
1:41:02in the dreaming state. I just leave it
1:41:04at that. You guys can look it up, but
1:41:05that's that. So, if it's a more
1:41:06vulnerable state where your guard is
1:41:08down, it needs a little bit of extra
1:41:10attention. Yeah. Well, I think that's
1:41:12also a great reason not to sleep with
1:41:14the TV on. Well, I I fall asleep with
1:41:17Netflix all the time and it doesn't make
1:41:18it doesn't Yeah. No, but it's a little
1:41:20bit like insomnia. People are like, "How
1:41:21do you Well, it's not everybody has
1:41:23insomnia. If you drink if you slam three
1:41:25espressos, fall asleep with a laptop on,
1:41:26you sleep well." You don't have
1:41:27insomnia. But if some people You don't
1:41:29know how well you could be sleeping if
1:41:31you're sleeping. What if I'm watching
1:41:32that show falling asleep all the time?
1:41:34Well, I actually when I was watching
1:41:36Black Mirror, it definitely affected
1:41:38your mood. I I mean I love crime
1:41:40documentaries but I now only listen to
1:41:42them in the day. So she had the
1:41:44experience where she was watching crime
1:41:45documentaries before bed and then she
1:41:47was having more nightmares. So well I
1:41:48was having disrupted and disregulated
1:41:50sleep but yes. So we saw that changing
1:41:52but not more you weren't committing more
1:41:53crime. I was not committing crimes in my
1:41:55sleep. No. Um I want to ask a question
1:41:57about dream interpretation. Okay. Yeah.
1:41:59Um obviously um this has been the foray
1:42:02of psychology right? It's like Freudian
1:42:05and what are all these like what do
1:42:07dreams mean? Um you do talk about it
1:42:09here though I found it really
1:42:11fascinating that so much of dreams
1:42:14whether you grow up in a technological
1:42:16culture a nontechnological culture the
1:42:18themes are very similar right the themes
1:42:21are uh falling well you can tell me
1:42:23there's like five main themes right
1:42:26falling being embarrassed in a social
1:42:28situation
1:42:30um I mean how do you answer how you have
1:42:34to answer it with what we know and I
1:42:36wanted to answer it it's the last
1:42:38chapter. Um,
1:42:40and people may be disappointed, but but
1:42:44based on the fact that my dreams are
1:42:46cooked up by my imagination and my
1:42:48memory, I'm how can,
1:42:52you know, how can a wine glass be the
1:42:56same for the three of us? How can it
1:42:58mean the same because we we're living
1:42:59such different lives? How can it even be
1:43:01the same as my life that I was living
1:43:02just like three years ago? And there's
1:43:04this whole field of like addicts and
1:43:07recovery and if they don't there's this
1:43:08just a report like somebody who you know
1:43:11it was somebody in Brazil and he said I
1:43:12p you know I I knew I was headed the
1:43:15right direction cuz I you know I didn't
1:43:16smoke rock in my dreams and so like I I
1:43:19love the fact that all of that stuff is
1:43:22out there but dream interpret so I I
1:43:25want to engage it. So for that for that
1:43:27purp person a crackpipe in their own
1:43:29life has different symbolism
1:43:32for me it means possibility and new
1:43:34experiences for wine glass means
1:43:36something else a bridge means something
1:43:37else. So I I don't think there can be a
1:43:39universal symbol that applies to all
1:43:41humans let alone me in my past life. I
1:43:44was told like water's consciousness and
1:43:45you're always being swallowed by it. So
1:43:47every time I have dream about water I'm
1:43:48like oh it's consciousness. I just don't
1:43:50see how that can I don't I don't see how
1:43:52that can happen even for me. Water's not
1:43:54the same thing. I've got patience. A
1:43:56bridge could mean end of life. A bridge
1:43:58could mean reconciliation. It just it's
1:44:00just it's so personalized. I don't
1:44:03understand how one thing could be the
1:44:05same for you and me. I'll I'll just say
1:44:07that off the top. That doesn't mean we
1:44:08can't interpret things. Um you were
1:44:11going to say No, no. Well, I was going
1:44:12to go to the sort of like there are
1:44:14similarities that seem to be shocking
1:44:16across cultures cultures and different
1:44:19people. Nobody wants to fall.
1:44:21Everybody's having nightmares about
1:44:22falling. Well, so that's interesting. So
1:44:24the p that's so what I that's a those
1:44:27are dream patterns the meaning yeah
1:44:31let's go to patterns first first
1:44:32patterns first is is is easier so the
1:44:36one of the opening thoughts that I had
1:44:37was your dreams are not limitless and if
1:44:41you look at patterns
1:44:44not my dream your dream or your dream
1:44:46but thousands and thousands of dreams
1:44:47over hundreds of years you find that
1:44:51reports of math and calculation are very
1:44:53infrequent and you find nightmares and
1:44:56erotic dreams are very common and then
1:44:58you get teeth falling out falling being
1:45:01chased as common dreams and that's held
1:45:05even it went from horse and carriage and
1:45:07buggy to like different continents so
1:45:09there is uh there's a dreaming pattern I
1:45:11think that is built in also falling
1:45:13that's one of our first reflexes is the
1:45:15grasping reflex
1:45:18that's it's one of the reflexes that
1:45:19goes away but maybe falling is one of
1:45:22these like nobody He wants to die. And
1:45:24my ancestors that didn't have falling
1:45:25dreams, they all died. They didn't,
1:45:27right? What about babies? Flying, not in
1:45:29an airplane. Fascinating. But flying. I
1:45:32used to have this dream all the time
1:45:34about flying. And sometimes it'd be more
1:45:37frequent. I haven't had it in a long
1:45:38time. But and our ancestors weren't
1:45:40flying. So I can't explain that, but
1:45:41it's a pattern. And some consistent
1:45:44dream. Consistent dream. And there's a
1:45:45huge difference in the dream. One
1:45:47version is I'm flying, but I cannot
1:45:49control where I'm going. And it kind of
1:45:51feels out of control. It's just your
1:45:52life.
1:45:54The other much less uh frequent was that
1:45:58I could control it. And when I could
1:46:00control the flying, it was the most then
1:46:03you were lucid dreaming. I don't know.
1:46:04Feeling of mastery. It's true. There was
1:46:06a element of lucid dreaming. I never
1:46:07thought about that cuz I'd be like, "Oh
1:46:08my gosh, I'm Yeah, you could steer it a
1:46:10Yeah, lucid dreaming isn't like
1:46:11resetting the Ask somebody who does
1:46:13that." Like it's not like you completely
1:46:14reset the environment. You're just like,
1:46:16"Hey, I can actually drive where I'm
1:46:17flying or drive where I'm where I'm
1:46:18sailing." It's a it's a subtle control
1:46:21agency. Very good. I would wake up from
1:46:23those feeling like I could tackle
1:46:25anything that I had just had the most
1:46:26amazing experience that life was great.
1:46:29So, back to dream interpretation. When I
1:46:31was looking at this, there were some
1:46:32things that were obvious like if you're
1:46:35nervous about giving a speech and you
1:46:36have a dream about showing up naked
1:46:38behind a podium that like that's a
1:46:39consistent that doesn't need
1:46:41interpretation. Your waking anxieties
1:46:44are clearly reflected in your dream
1:46:46anxieties or dreams. Then I noticed um
1:46:50end of life dreams were very interesting
1:46:52uh for my cancer patients that when your
1:46:54day and pregnancy dreams they're called
1:46:56genre dreams when your daytime life
1:46:57event is so massive it's also
1:47:02consistently represented connected to
1:47:04your dream life that there's a it's just
1:47:06taking up so much space there's no time
1:47:08to be uh imaginative. Um, so those they
1:47:11don't need interpretation. Then they're
1:47:12like junk dreams. We don't hold every
1:47:14thought we have to like what does that
1:47:15mean? You know, so just leave dreams
1:47:17alone a little bit. Speak for yourself.
1:47:19Oh yeah. And then um uh the fourth one
1:47:22is um what I call universal dreams. Like
1:47:25I I I really do think nightmares and
1:47:27erotic dreams are cultivating the mind.
1:47:29Do they need interpretation? That's a
1:47:31whole field. When you're older, you have
1:47:33erotic dream about somebody. Bring you
1:47:34here to not talk about erotic dreams. So
1:47:36I do want to talk about it on road. When
1:47:39you say the brain is our most powerful
1:47:40sex organ, you're talking about it from
1:47:43a really interesting perspective that
1:47:45the things that we can encounter in our
1:47:50dreams are incredibly vivid, incredibly
1:47:52activating, and they have so much
1:47:54emotional content to them. Can you talk
1:47:57a little bit? I mean, I think you said
1:47:58that like twothirds of men report that
1:48:00they can have an orgasm from dreams and
1:48:02a third of women. Like what? Yeah. Like
1:48:04what's going on with my erotic sleep?
1:48:08Yeah. Well, I don't have a How much time
1:48:12do we have left? I don't have I don't
1:48:13have a simple answer for that. But what
1:48:16I would tell you is um some some
1:48:17interesting things over in these reports
1:48:20over 90% of people have erotic dreams
1:48:23across different cultures. So, it
1:48:24doesn't mean if you think you're prudish
1:48:26or not, it's not really about that. It's
1:48:27like a solar flare. There's a lot of
1:48:29infidelity whether you're in a good
1:48:31relationship or not. Like over 80%. If
1:48:33you change it from sex to erotic, those
1:48:34are some of the that's the data coming.
1:48:36That's those are the surveys that exist
1:48:38from which I extracted information. One
1:48:40clarification, 80% are people dreaming
1:48:43about other people that they're not in a
1:48:44relationship with. Cheating. Um, but
1:48:48whether that's good in a relationship or
1:48:49not is actually based on if you're in a
1:48:51good relationship or not, right? Like
1:48:53what does it mean to you? Like to dream
1:48:54about an ex could mean, oh, I really
1:48:56made the right decision to not be with
1:48:58them. I don't I mean, I Yeah, that if
1:49:01you're if you're still thinking about
1:49:03your ex and you're dreaming about them,
1:49:05then you just still want to be with your
1:49:06ex. That was my one. And then if you're
1:49:08in a healthy relationship and you have
1:49:10infidelity dreams, but you wake up and
1:49:11you're like, "Hey, you know, you guys
1:49:13are vibing." And just I don't think
1:49:14that's disruptive. It's it's what does
1:49:16it mean to have infidelity dreams in an
1:49:18unhealthy relationship? And people have
1:49:20some opinions about that. But the just
1:49:23another thing to be mad at them about
1:49:24when you wake up like you cheated on me
1:49:25in my dream.
1:49:28I don't I didn't I didn't want to get
1:49:30involved in that for you too. I just
1:49:31leave I'm going to move on to that. The
1:49:33next one is that it tends to be that
1:49:35they tend to report a small cluster of
1:49:37people like you know it's not like some
1:49:39chimera like you know Pedro Pascal and
1:49:42Brad Pit morphed into one whoever what
1:49:44you know whatever it is for anybody like
1:49:45there's not it's like it's people you
1:49:48don't even like like your boss or like
1:49:50you know it's family sometimes so I
1:49:52don't know what that means but it's a
1:49:53tight tribal narrow cluster. Um I don't
1:49:56know where I went with Pedro Pascal and
1:49:57Brad Pitt but look sounds good to me and
1:50:00she's like yeah that's all right. she's
1:50:02she approves. Um then the then the thing
1:50:06is like the acts are wild but the actors
1:50:10are surprisingly narrow. Um that's
1:50:13that's those are the things I took out
1:50:14of that and people can you can say
1:50:16whatever you want. Um but that's the
1:50:19those are the surveys out there. At a
1:50:21biological level
1:50:24um you don't need self- stimulation to
1:50:27have an orgasm, a physiological orgasm.
1:50:30excitement from the brain can descend
1:50:32down and do that. That's well
1:50:33established. Freud and wet dreams and
1:50:35stuff like that. Orgasms are, you know,
1:50:37they're they're a cerebral event going
1:50:40from touch to caress.
1:50:43There isn't a new nerve that you sprout,
1:50:46but the perception can bumping into
1:50:49somebody in the subway versus a lover's
1:50:51touch is lands differently in your
1:50:54sensory cortex. That maturation happens
1:50:57around the time of erotic dreams. I'm
1:50:59not saying they're linked, but there's
1:51:00starting to be a lot of coincidences,
1:51:02right? So, there's some there I think
1:51:04there's some cognitive maturation with
1:51:06erotic dreams that may allow the
1:51:08development of erogynous touch uh that
1:51:11happens at that time because you're not
1:51:13making a new nerve for it. That's
1:51:14fascinating. I mean, I wonder what is
1:51:16happening in the brain that all of a
1:51:19sudden received a lot of hormones. Yeah.
1:51:22Well, that's an interesting question,
1:51:23too, because sometimes um I don't know
1:51:25if it's uh I don't know if the hormones
1:51:27come first or the dreams come first, but
1:51:29it's likely they're all intertwined.
1:51:31Yeah, it's all it's a priming system
1:51:33also and you kind of talk about that in
1:51:34the book as well that there's, you know,
1:51:36a certain performative practical aspect
1:51:40to dreams and that extends even to our
1:51:42romantic, you know, experiences and our
1:51:44sex. It's a guide book, you know, maybe
1:51:46it may be a guide book for like, hey,
1:51:48this this is what you don't know how
1:51:50good this feels, but this is this is how
1:51:52this is where you need to be going
1:51:53because the species needs to pre
1:51:55procreate, you know. I I don't know. Go
1:51:57search this out in your waking life.
1:51:58Yeah. Exactly. see how much you like
1:52:01that. Yeah. Um before we let you go,
1:52:04what would you like people to take away
1:52:06from this book and kind of the work you
1:52:08do in general? Um you know, you do such
1:52:10incredible education about not just the
1:52:14functions of the brain, but sort of what
1:52:16it means to understand them at the level
1:52:18you do. What would you like people to
1:52:19take away from from what you do? That's
1:52:22um that's a big question. Uh, and at
1:52:25different stages in my life, I've had
1:52:26I'm I'm having different insights. And I
1:52:29think for me now at a 52 with adult
1:52:32sons,
1:52:34um, you know,
1:52:37I'm feeling like I can reinvent. I'm
1:52:39feeling like I can transform. I'm
1:52:41feeling surprisingly
1:52:45inquisitive and curious again. And and I
1:52:47just want people to know um that if you
1:52:50look at the structure of the brain
1:52:53um those 100 billion neurons, they don't
1:52:55actually touch and they they spray
1:52:57chemicals at each other. And if you if
1:53:00you just appreciate that and think of it
1:53:02as like the the the Christmas globe in
1:53:05New York that every day you're kind of
1:53:07new, potentially new. And so whatever
1:53:11tragedy you're dealing with is not
1:53:14permanent. I'm not saying it's easy. uh
1:53:16and whatever triumph you you're feeling
1:53:18at that moment is is is also not
1:53:20permanent. So based on the structure of
1:53:23the brain that those neurons don't touch
1:53:25and they spray chemicals and it's an
1:53:26aurora borealis it's not one spot or
1:53:28wires that you know you know the there's
1:53:32a new day for you every day. Uh and
1:53:34that's what I would want people to walk
1:53:36away with. That's really sweet. It's a
1:53:37beautiful takeaway. Um this is why you
1:53:39dream. Highly recommend it. Um and your
1:53:42other books as well. Um such a pleasure
1:53:43to get to talk to you. Thanks for being
1:53:44here. My pleasure.
1:53:49Before we recorded this episode, I told
1:53:51myself that I wanted to remember a dream
1:53:54last night. Really? I did. And I did
1:53:56remember it. I don't know why. I just
1:53:59did. Are you going to share with the
1:54:00class? No, it wasn't very interesting. I
1:54:01was a teenager and I was hanging out
1:54:03with friends from camp. But like that
1:54:05was it. Like when he talked about sort
1:54:07of like the the junky the junky dreams,
1:54:09like that was it. Like I had there's no
1:54:10meaning. It's not very interesting. I'm
1:54:13not painting a painting that's going to
1:54:15be sold for millions of dollars based on
1:54:17that dream. I think my brain doesn't
1:54:20want to do the things that your brain
1:54:23wants to do when it's dreaming. I mean,
1:54:25just don't that's consistent with your
1:54:27personality. You don't like being told
1:54:28what to do.
1:54:31I mean, I have a lot a lot of dreams
1:54:33that don't fall under the creative, you
1:54:36know, umbrella. I'm like speaking
1:54:38Spanish, which is not my native tongue.
1:54:39I'm speaking Hebrew. I'm translating
1:54:41things. I'm writing music. I'm
1:54:43practicing piano. Like nothing restful.
1:54:47That was actually the most eyeopening
1:54:50part of this. The idea that sleep is not
1:54:52rest. That the brain, as he says, is
1:54:55like on fire with activity. I mean,
1:54:57look, we also do feel rested when we
1:54:59have certain cycles of sleep and alcohol
1:55:02and pot. And we know that those things
1:55:04are things that disrupt REMM sleep,
1:55:06which is going to kind of change the
1:55:08restfulness and how, you know, how good
1:55:10you feel when you wake up. But I kind of
1:55:12feel that way about, you know, like if
1:55:13you're constantly having nightmares all
1:55:14night, you're not going to feel so good
1:55:16in the morning. You feel crummy. No,
1:55:17you're going to feel absolutely
1:55:18horrible. um the popularity of this
1:55:22topic. You know, other scientists have
1:55:25talked about sleep architecture and that
1:55:27how our um the media that we're
1:55:29consuming right before bed, the fact
1:55:31that we're getting light in our eyes,
1:55:32which tells us to be awake, changes the
1:55:35architecture of our sleep, which is
1:55:36going to impact dream patterns. I
1:55:38definitely for my this is obviously
1:55:40anecdotal, but I feel a difference and I
1:55:42notice a difference in my dream
1:55:44patterns. They're much busier, more
1:55:45frantic, less restful when I'm watching
1:55:48media or working right up until bed,
1:55:50right? Like if I'm like writing and on
1:55:53my screen and cranking out emails and my
1:55:57brain needs or benefits from like a
1:56:00windown time period and yeah, talk a
1:56:03little bit about like the difference
1:56:05that having that uh free time almost
1:56:09unstructured brain time where we're not
1:56:11processing information. And it sounds
1:56:13like the creative network increases how
1:56:16important that is and the benefits. I
1:56:18mean, I think he was kind of talking
1:56:19about how, you know, even the notion of
1:56:21like the brain activity is that it it's
1:56:24never not working. Like the only time
1:56:26it's not working is when it's not
1:56:27producing an electrical signal, you
1:56:29know? So, it's always working, but the
1:56:31question is sort of to what degree are
1:56:33we giving um, you know, are we giving a
1:56:36section of the brain the ability to say
1:56:38I'm in charge now. So when we're, you
1:56:41know, when we're working, when we're
1:56:43engaging even on things that we enjoy or
1:56:45even watching TV, we are we're
1:56:47recruiting parts of the brain that uh,
1:56:50you know, are going to take some some
1:56:51time to to relax. I mean, for for many
1:56:55people who do meditation, you know, what
1:56:56you find is that the first like five
1:56:58minutes are a little bit of a crapshoot.
1:57:00That's why it's nice to meditate for
1:57:01five minutes, but if you're meditating
1:57:02for five minutes and wondering why
1:57:04you're not feeling anything, it's
1:57:05because your brain is still chilling the
1:57:07f out from what you were doing when you
1:57:08hit the timer. So, for for many, you
1:57:11know, experiences where we're trying to
1:57:13calm the brain down, be it meditation,
1:57:16be it sleep, yeah, it it takes active
1:57:18time. And also, this is another metric
1:57:20that people who wear fancy rings and
1:57:22things, you know, is if you fall asleep
1:57:25too quickly, it's actually a sign that
1:57:27you missed your window of optimal sleep,
1:57:30that you shouldn't be so exhausted that
1:57:32you like conk out. Um, also enter
1:57:34alcohol or pot. And the reason that many
1:57:36people honestly use it, you know, night
1:57:38cap. Um, but your brain actually needs
1:57:41time to do its natural sort of winding
1:57:43down. And that's actually more optimal
1:57:45than just like conking to sleep. I can't
1:57:46remember what the window is. I remember
1:57:48when I used to wear my thing, I was
1:57:49like, "Oh, did I hit it?" It's like
1:57:50between 2 and 8 minutes or something.
1:57:52Yeah. I think it's like under 3 minutes,
1:57:54it's a little bit too fast. Too fast.
1:57:56And if it's like over 10 or 15, then
1:57:58you're like, "No." Then you're having
1:57:59trouble falling asleep. Um, the notion
1:58:02of quieting the brain down. Actually, I
1:58:05started to think about it differently. I
1:58:07started thinking about it as a toggle
1:58:09between this imagination creative
1:58:12network and this executive functioning
1:58:14network. And the executive functioning
1:58:16is making lists.
1:58:18and
1:58:19problem solving and not problem solving
1:58:22in the way that a creative network might
1:58:24where it's searching sort of more
1:58:26open-ended. No, it's like it's like a
1:58:29computer. It's like a computer. I need
1:58:31to do this. Um, and that's the voice of
1:58:33your brain. That's the voice of my
1:58:34executive functioning brain is very
1:58:36upset. I need to make this happen right
1:58:38away. A little bit short, I assume.
1:58:41And the creative side is sort of out in
1:58:45a meadow and ideas are coming to it and
1:58:47it's like let's try this on and let's
1:58:50try that and it has a he talks in his
1:58:53book also about how the creative
1:58:56imagination network has a much higher
1:58:59degree of emotionality.
1:59:01So in that sense when we're dreaming and
1:59:04I like the idea of dreams as um part of
1:59:07the visualization sort of the um
1:59:11experimentation sensory experimentation
1:59:14like we're rehearsing that's the word I
1:59:16was looking for in that sense we're not
1:59:18only rehearsing psychologically but
1:59:20we're rehearsing emotionally where we
1:59:22create a scenario feel what that's like
1:59:25kind of thinking about Bruce Lipton
1:59:26we're kind of trying on the programming
1:59:28in a way And this is where I think
1:59:32people can get a lot of benefit is
1:59:35knowing that they're toggling between
1:59:36those two states and having enough time
1:59:38in the creative imagination state to
1:59:40allow it to do its thing. For sure. Um I
1:59:45also um this was in his bio, but we
1:59:47didn't get to talk to him about it. He
1:59:49um started by going to community
1:59:50college. He went to Compton Community
1:59:52College and he got his BA from Berkeley,
1:59:55his MD from USC, his doctorate from
1:59:57UCSD,
1:59:59um, and his cancer surgery
2:00:00specialization from UCSF. So, he kind of
2:00:02like hit the whole coast. Um, but just
2:00:04really cool. He started in community
2:00:06college and, um, I just really think he
2:00:08has a neat story. Last thought about
2:00:09this need for the Creative Imagination
2:00:12Network, tying it to some of the other
2:00:14things that we talk about, intuition and
2:00:17spirituality.
2:00:18I actually think that people's have a
2:00:22much higher ability to connect with
2:00:24something greater than themselves in
2:00:25that space. So it's not just about
2:00:27problem solving. It's I think there's an
2:00:30inherent wisdom that gets quieted down
2:00:34because our society prioritizes the
2:00:36executive functioning getting things
2:00:38done and we need it. Like that's how we
2:00:41drive and stay in our lane and not crash
2:00:43and that's how we make sure we're fed
2:00:45etc etc. It keeps us alive, but by
2:00:48prioritizing that we we sort of lose out
2:00:50on some of the inherent wisdom that can
2:00:53be accessed in that space. Yeah. And
2:00:55we've, you know, talked a lot about that
2:00:56about those kind of transcendental and
2:00:58kind of theta, you know, kind of zones
2:01:00and that comes up a lot. I mean, like
2:01:02more episodes than I can even think
2:01:04about have talked about this. So really
2:01:06like that notion of that sleep entry
2:01:07state being um, you know, full of
2:01:09possibility, which is why people are
2:01:11doing this lucid dreaming. and um you
2:01:13know um maybe I'll have to try and do
2:01:15some of the exercises and see if I can
2:01:16do it for Substack. We're going to have
2:01:18a challenge. I think we should start a
2:01:21community chat about the practice of
2:01:25setting intention before we go to bed
2:01:27and seeing if it works. Seeing what if
2:01:29it works. Seeing what type of dreams we
2:01:31can have and then having a short
2:01:34practice upon entering back into awake
2:01:37life. Happy to happy to engage. One of
2:01:40the things he talks about is there are
2:01:42certain people who have donated dream
2:01:44journals to um it's kind of like a
2:01:46sounds like just like a giant like dream
2:01:48cloud. It's like a they collect people's
2:01:50journals. Some people remember a lot
2:01:52more dreams and they have people who
2:01:53sometimes for 50 years keep a journal of
2:01:55their dreams and so that allows some of
2:01:58these longitudinal studies. So I don't
2:01:59know if we'll get it. I don't think we
2:02:00have a large enough sample size yet on
2:02:02Substack but you never know. We're going
2:02:04to find the commonality in the breakers
2:02:07dream patterns. If you haven't already
2:02:09joined us on Stub Stack, head over, join
2:02:11the Breaker community. There's so much
2:02:13awesome bonus content there. We can't
2:02:15wait for you to see it all. From our
2:02:18breakdown to the one we hope you never
2:02:19have. See you next time. It's my
2:02:22breakdown. She's going to break it down
2:02:24for you. She's got a neuroscience
2:02:27or two fiction. And now she's going to
2:02:29break down. So break down. She's going
2:02:32to break it down.

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