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Does the Shroud of Turin Prove the Resurrection? | Fr. Robert Spitzer, SJ — Transcript

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0:03[music]
0:05>> This is Father Gregory Pine and welcome
0:07to Godsplaining. Thanks to all those who
0:08support us. If you enjoy the show,
0:10please consider making a monthly
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0:13subscribe to Godsplaining wherever you
0:15listen to your podcasts.
0:17For this episode of Godsplaining, I'm
0:18delighted to host Father Robert Spitzer
0:21of the Society of Jesus. Uh Father
0:23Spitzer is the present president of the
0:25Magis Center of Reason and Faith,
0:28which is one of the largest
0:29science-based Catholic apologetic
0:31institutes in the world. Uh you may know
0:33him from his many books, which counts 20
0:37and beyond, or of which there are 20 and
0:39more.
0:40Um and he's also uh featured on a weekly
0:43television show on EWTN, uh which, as
0:47the title would lead one to believe,
0:48Father Spitzer's Universe, highlights
0:51uh certain fascinating features of the
0:53wild world in which we live. So, Father
0:55Spitzer, thanks so much for joining.
0:57>> It's uh really a pleasure and an honor.
1:00>> Thank you, Father Gregory.
1:02>> Um you had made mention that um the
1:04Magis Center recently released uh the
1:07Magis AI app. Could you say a little
1:09word about that at the outset?
1:11>> Oh, sure. Um we do have a an app, um my
1:15m a g i s, um
1:17a a i, all one word. Just put it into
1:20your Apple Store or your Google Play
1:22Store and download it, or you can just
1:25go to magisai.com.
1:27Um it will answer just about any
1:29question you want on the confluence of
1:32between science, reason, faith,
1:34philosophy, uh theology, especially
1:37Catholic morality, uh Catholic um
1:40scripture interpretation, ca- uh
1:42Catholic uh spiritual life, uh to a
1:45certain extent Catholic history, but um
1:47there are, you know, it's it's not as
1:49complete in that area, but it it does
1:51give pretty much the Catholic answer not
1:54only to the catechetical questions,
1:56which of course are covered, but also to
1:59the confluence between science and faith
2:01and reason,
2:03and philosophy and
2:05and history, exegesis, etc. So, it
2:08pretty much is trying to put together
2:10the sacred and secular disciplines
2:12in their confluence, how they mutually
2:15corroborate one another and the evidence
2:17for it. So, you can, like I said, just
2:19pick it go to your Apple Store, put in m
2:22a g i s a i or write in the search
2:25field. It's free of charge.
2:27And
2:29download away. We've got Magis AI 2.0
2:31coming out and that'll have a wake word.
2:33It'll have a source library with 2,000
2:35pages of my articles
2:37in that library and the whole area of
2:40science, reason, faith, and spiritual
2:42life, etc. So, you can get that, you
2:46know, all the footnotes will be there.
2:48So, the sources will be completely
2:50transparent. And
2:53with a wake word, all you have to do is
2:55say, "Hey Magis, will a fourth-level
2:57multiverse rule out
2:59an intelligent creator of our universe?"
3:01And it will answer that question just
3:04audibly and in writing. So, pretty
3:06exciting new stuff coming out with Magis
3:09AI 2.0 at the end of the month.
3:12>> That's awesome. Okay.
3:14Um
3:15So, certainly there've been a lot of
3:17developments in the
3:21kind of faith and science landscape. A
3:23lot of it precipitated by developments
3:26in AI and I think that it's certainly
3:28raised ethical questions for folks, but
3:30there's also a lot of questions
3:32regarding like motives of credibility.
3:35So, it seems like folks on the internet
3:36are especially interested in miracles
3:39and what is entailed by the case made by
3:42miracles.
3:43>> Yes.
3:44>> Um so, we've heard a lot of
3:45conversations about Eucharistic
3:47miracles.
3:48And then also a considerable number
3:50about the Shroud of Turin. So, we
3:52thought that during the time that we
3:53have together, we might just highlight
3:55some of what science has yielded in its
3:58investigation of the Shroud,
4:00and what that might lead one to believe
4:03regarding the testimony that it offers.
4:05Um so, if you can lead us through it,
4:07what what is the Shroud of Turin, and
4:10when was it, I could say, discovered or
4:12recovered, whatever you think the better
4:14word is?
4:16>> Well, um first uh the the Shroud is um
4:21purported to be the burial cloth of
4:23Jesus. I think there's a great deal of
4:25historical and scientific evidence for
4:27that fact. Um it's uh a cloth that is uh
4:32clearly um uh has an image um of perfect
4:37uh three-dimensional photographic
4:38negative image um of a man who is
4:42crucified in the way of Jesus. So, you
4:45have an image there, a very superficial
4:48image, which I'll discuss in detail in a
4:49moment. Uh in addition to the image, you
4:52have blood stains, um and uh depending
4:55on how you do the counting of what
4:57constitutes a blood stain, um people
4:59estimate there's anywhere between uh 130
5:02to 270
5:04uh blood stains on the Shroud. Again, it
5:06depends on how you do the counting.
5:08And uh of AB blood type, um certainly it
5:13uh
5:13uh the
5:14um the
5:16the image and and uh you know, it's it's
5:19um and and the blood stains in
5:21coordination with one another would be
5:22almost impossible to duplicate by a
5:25medieval forger.
5:27Um the uh the There has been a bunch of
5:30controversy surrounding the dating of
5:32the Shroud going back to 1988 when a
5:35carbon dating was done uh that placed
5:38the Shroud to between 1250 to 1378 AD.
5:42Um essentially this uh
5:44um dating has been thoroughly goingly
5:47debunked. Um there is uh clearly a
5:50systematic error um in the carbon
5:53dating, a glaring systematic error
5:56um that was tried to you know the
5:58basically the British Museum and Damon
6:00who did the publication actually tried
6:03to exaggerate the margins of of error um
6:07which of course sort of
6:09um kept hidden uh the glaring systematic
6:12error. If it basically if you have a
6:14more than two standard deviations from
6:16the mean in the in the in the sample um
6:19you obviously have a problem with the
6:21dating and and that has been revealed.
6:24Christian Casablanca and others in
6:27Archaeometry Oxford's big uh
6:29uh journal uh of archaeology um
6:32uh essentially shows that uh in that
6:35study there's absolutely no way with the
6:37glaring systematic error there that
6:39comes from this large dating this is
6:41like
6:42what we have is an 8 cm sample 2 and 1/2
6:45inches long, right? And in that 8 cm
6:47sample you have a variance in the date
6:50that's very systematic. So right in the
6:53in the the part that's furthest from the
6:55body the edge of the sample is further
6:57from the body uh you have uh essentially
7:00a a date of around 1150. The the edge of
7:03the cloth that is uh closest to the body
7:06you have a a date of 1450 I'm sorry
7:091410.
7:10So you put the two together well you
7:12have a 250 year variance and it's and
7:15it's literally it is so systematic it's
7:1836 years per centimeter. So just add on
7:2336 years uh
7:25more and more toward the present every
7:27time you get you know just 1 cm closer
7:31to the body. So uh when you put that
7:34together it's of course invalid and what
7:36could have created uh such a dating
7:39thing well like we can talk about that
7:40when we talk about dating evidence, but
7:42essentially I I believe um right now
7:45most of the physicists currently who are
7:47investigating the cloth think it was a
7:49neutron emission that was coming from
7:52the body.
7:53And that neutron emission, there was
7:55also a proton deuteron emission.
7:57So this is in general particle radiation
8:00essentially. And the the proton
8:04deuterons produce the image and it
8:06explains
8:08all 46 enigmas, but the neutrons are
8:10what's important to us because if you
8:12release 2 * 10 ^ 19 neutrons from that
8:16body, not very many by comparison, it's
8:19only 1 10 billionth of the number of
8:21particles in the man's body, but still
8:24it's sufficient to throw off the dating
8:27because if you take 2 * 10 ^ 19 neutrons
8:31and you
8:33you combine that with there's indigenous
8:36nitrogen and and you know it's
8:40it'd be nitrogen 14 which is a nitrogen
8:42isotope. If you combine one neutron with
8:45N14 that's indigenous to the linen
8:48cloth,
8:49basically you get C14. And C14 is
8:53precisely what's measured in a carbon-14
8:55dating test. And so
8:58is there a way that we can verify that
9:00this is correct that 2 * 10 ^ 19
9:03neutrons
9:04were emitted and that it would have
9:06given rise to the variance
9:09in that 8 cm sample near the taken near
9:12the edge of the cloth in the area of the
9:14foot. And the answer is yes, we can.
9:17There's a
9:18software
9:20that is used at all nuclear laboratories
9:22to test for neutron emissions. It's
9:24called Monte Carlo N-Particle software.
9:27And [snorts] the Monte Carlo N-Particle
9:29software can tell you pretty much if you
9:32have that number of neutrons like 2 * 10
9:34^ 19 if the being emitted, what would
9:37the effect be on the indigenous
9:39indigenous nitrogen? In other words, the
9:41mass density of the neutrons,
9:44you know, per cubic centimeter would I
9:45mean per square centimeter in this case
9:47would be obviously, you know,
9:51validated very quickly in Monte Carlo
9:53and particle software says this is
9:55precisely the kind of variance we would
9:57expect. The further away from the body
9:59it is, the less effect on the date. And
10:03of course, all we have to do is project
10:05backwards to see what if we remove all
10:08those neutrons from the indigenous
10:10nitrogen
10:13in the nitrogen 14 in the cloth, well,
10:15what would the date be? Pretty darn
10:17close to the first century. And by the
10:19way, we now have other dating tests
10:22that show that. And for example, we
10:24have,
10:26you know, Dr. Liberato De Carlo and his
10:28crew over at the Italian National Labs
10:31basically did a
10:33what's called a
10:35an
10:35x-ray
10:37scattering
10:38uh
10:39test that showed that the cloth probably
10:42emerged in somewhere between 54
10:45to 70 AD, some somewhere in that
10:48neighborhood.
10:49And
10:50that
10:51x-ray scattering test is
10:55peer reviewed. It's an excellent,
10:57you know, dating test. We also have
11:00three other tests done by Dr. Giulio
11:02Fanti.
11:04Um uh Fourier transform transformed
11:07infrared spectroscopy,
11:10Raman laser spectroscopy, and mechanical
11:13compressibility and tension test, all of
11:16which lead to a
11:17you know, a first century date
11:19when you put them in combination.
11:21When we take a look at the the
11:23transformation
11:25predicted by Monte Carlo and particle
11:26software of what the transformation of
11:29the date would be with 2 * 10 ^ 19
11:31neutrons being emitted, you pretty much
11:34get the same date. So, uh it looks like
11:37it's a first-century
11:39um
11:40uh
11:41uh linen cloth and that the image was
11:44probably emblazoned on the cloth uh in
11:47the mid-first century, very close to the
11:49time of the crucifixion resurrection of
11:52Jesus Christ.
11:54>> Okay, you made mention of 46 enigmas.
11:59Uh unfortunately, I suspect we don't
12:01have time to get into all 46 enigmas.
12:04But, could you highlight one or two or
12:06three which you think uh commends the
12:09Shroud of Turin to the believer and the
12:12unbeliever alike as uh corroborating the
12:16the main testimony of the shroud?
12:19>> Sure. I'll just talk about three image
12:21enigmas and a and a blood enigma um and
12:23that should I think make a a fairly
12:26solid case. Uh the first image enigma is
12:29you know, we basically have um
12:31three-dimensional information that's
12:33encoded on the cloth. Essentially, the
12:36the delicate etching of the cloth, which
12:38is by the way not even two um
12:41millimeters uh I mean micrometers deep,
12:44um you know, is uh is very very very
12:47very uh superficial etching on the
12:50cloth, but it is so precise that it
12:52literally gives us MRI um
12:55like depth uh readings uh of the image
12:59on the cloth. So, essentially, if you
13:02look at that, you you can use what's
13:03called a VP8 um
13:05uh digital image analyzer from NASA and
13:09you can take that VP8 image analyzer and
13:12you can apply it to the the the the
13:15image on the cloth and you can get a
13:18very refined three-dimensional
13:22uh figure that emerges um in and uh
13:25course, you can't do that outside of an
13:28MRI
13:29with any image. So, this is like the
13:31most unusual image in the whole wide
13:32world. But, is it there? Oh, yes. We
13:34right here we have a shroud exhibit here
13:37at our Christ Cathedral in Orange
13:38County. And the one of the
13:40three-dimensional statues that was made
13:43from the VP 8 image analyzer
13:46from NASA
13:47that is there in our museum right now.
13:50And again,
13:52how would anybody in in that time be
13:55able to perform that? That that there is
13:57something there that's quite
13:58extraordinary that's way beyond not only
14:02I mean it's a rare technology today, you
14:05know, but by you know, in in those days
14:08it'd be super rare technology. So, to be
14:11able to do that. So, does particle
14:13radiation explain this? Yes, because
14:15particle radiation
14:17you know, first of all, it's going to
14:19have to be a form of radiation
14:21because we
14:22action at a distance. There's all kinds
14:24of places along the surface of the of
14:26the shroud that did not touch the body
14:29inside the shroud. Those things we still
14:32see that the imaging is there, that the
14:35three-dimensional information is there,
14:37is perfectly accurate imaging. So, it
14:39has to have come from some form of
14:41radiation
14:43you know, that that that did this cuz
14:45another word for radiation is action at
14:47a distance essentially. So,
14:51what what kind of radiation produced the
14:54this image? And I'm going to say it's
14:56particle radiation. And and the reason
14:59that it if you had
15:01there's another theory from John Jackson
15:04which is vacuum ultraviolet radiation
15:07that can also explain 26 out of the 46
15:11enigmas on the cloth.
15:13But,
15:14the one that explains all 46 is the
15:16particle radiation hypothesis. And so,
15:20Uh, objective here is to say, you know,
15:23well, um, is,
15:25you know, can, uh, the, for example, the
15:26vacuum ultraviolet radiation, uh, even
15:29though it can explain the image itself,
15:31and it has been tested by Paolo Di
15:33Lazzaro and and his, uh,
15:35uh, group over at Italian National Labs
15:37as well, you know, all those things are
15:40are fantastic, but unfortunately,
15:43um, it's the particle radiation
15:44hypothesis that can explain, uh, all of
15:47them. Now, why do I point out the
15:49three-dimension ality uh, of the image?
15:51I mean, there's all kinds of other
15:53features. You can actually see imaging
15:54from the inside of the body as well. Um,
15:58you know, so there there has to be some
16:00way in which, uh,
16:02you know, the body is either becoming
16:03mechanically transparent, that is to
16:05say, a spiritual body, or there can be
16:07some penetration of at least 3/16 of an
16:10inch of the cloth uh, into the body, or
16:13there's going to have to be some other
16:15way. Well, particle radiation explains
16:18how this can happen, and how these
16:20particles can be escaping from the
16:22inside of the body to also project an
16:24image that can be detected with a VP8
16:27image analyzer. So, I think this is a
16:30another good, you know, another, uh,
16:33area, enigmatic area of, um,
16:36of the image production. And by the way,
16:37the image is not produced by any
16:39substance. So, it's not produced by a
16:41liquid, it's not produced by a dye, it's
16:43not produced by a rub, it's not produced
16:46by powders or anything else. No
16:48substance at all. It is produced by the
16:51very, very refined, delicate etching of
16:54the cloth by, we think, particles
16:57because particles do not leave ion
17:00tracks. If you had vacuum ultraviolet
17:02radiation, there would be ion tracks,
17:05uh, in the cloth, um, but that's not the
17:08only reason. If you had vacuum
17:10ultraviolet radiation, the blood stains
17:12would not have been transferred, um,
17:14perfectly. But on the shroud, this is
17:17another enigma. We've got perfectly
17:20transferred blood stains onto the cloth.
17:24Now, I mean, that even you know, that's
17:27you know,
17:28including the edges of the blood stains
17:31are perfectly transferred. And all of
17:34the the the the halos that are left
17:36behind, right? When when the blood is
17:39is, you know, drying, right? It leaves
17:42what's called a contraction halo be when
17:44the blood is contracting in in the
17:46drying process, it's leaving a halo, a a
17:49little shadow of itself behind. Even
17:51those contraction halos
17:53are perfectly transferred to the shroud.
17:55Now, this is absolutely impossible. I
17:58mean, if you take a body
18:00and you have the blood that's already
18:02there, much of the blood is is already
18:05going to be dried on the body by the
18:06time, right? Remember,
18:08you know,
18:09you know, by the time the
18:12the blood gets transferred, most of it
18:14is going to be dried on the body. So,
18:17probably, you know, sometime around 36
18:20hours after the the body is put into the
18:22cloth, yes, some of the liquid would
18:25have been
18:26the the liquefied blood would have been
18:28transferred, but it would have been very
18:30very very imperfect blood stains, very
18:33partial, lots of fragmentation,
18:35segmentation of those blood stains.
18:37Certainly, you wouldn't get get perfect
18:39edges and contraction halos and so
18:41forth. So, we're going to have to find
18:43some explanation for how that blood got
18:47transferred onto the cloth. And here is
18:50basically the explanation. It's it's a
18:53twofold explanation, but essentially,
18:56not only are you going to have to have a
18:57source of radiation, I'll talk about
18:59that in a moment, but there's going to
19:01have to be what's called particle
19:02radiation build-up. And that build-up is
19:05going to take place
19:07right between the skin and the blood.
19:09So, So, radiation is coming out of the
19:12body. It's coming up the skin
19:15and it's building up pressure where the
19:17blood stains are. And ultimately, it
19:20reaches a critical pressure. And
19:22remember, uh when you have particle
19:24radiation, momentum is transferred. So,
19:27eventually, it gets to a critical state
19:29and flap, that blood, which is warmed up
19:32now because the particle radiation has
19:35warmed it up, it's going to go whap
19:37right onto the cloth and it's going to
19:40stick to the cloth and embed itself
19:43there. Now, here is the interesting
19:45thing.
19:46If that body does not disappear as a
19:50whole from the cloth, I mean, like
19:52Frodo's ring, if it does not disappear
19:55as a whole 1
19:5710,000th of a second after that blood is
20:00transferred, that blood is going to come
20:03down and readhere to the skin. Remember,
20:06the blood is warmed up. So, it'll
20:09readhere to the skin. And then, let's
20:12say if the apostles took the body out of
20:14the tomb and just tried to take the
20:16shroud off the body, it would really
20:19destroy uh these blood stains. It would
20:21be partial blood stains again,
20:22fragmenting, segmenting, all kinds of
20:25things. But, that didn't happen. So, now
20:27we've got two big, huge things to figure
20:30out here. If particle radiation was the
20:33cause, or even a vacuum ultraviolet
20:35radiation was the cause, uh where are
20:38you going to get enough energy to cause
20:40the fissioning for a low temperature
20:43nuclear reaction to occur in the body
20:46where you're going to have a release of
20:49neutrons, 2 * 10 ^ 19 neutrons and 2 *
20:5210 ^ 19 protons and deuterons? Where are
20:55you going to get the fissioning that's
20:57going to be necessary to produce those
21:00particles uh through a low temperature
21:02nuclear reaction? Answer, nothing in the
21:06tomb could do it. Limestone is not going
21:08to wreck. The body is not going to
21:10miraculously produce enough energy for
21:12fission. I mean, obviously the cloth is
21:15not going to produce some source of
21:17energy for fissioning. I mean, you're
21:20you're confronted with a supernatural
21:21cause of the imaging. And if you're
21:24going to get those complete perfect
21:26blood transfers onto the shroud without
21:28it re-sticking again onto the body and
21:31then when it gets the cloth gets pulled
21:33off creating fragmenting, segmenting,
21:36smearing, etc. If you're going to have
21:38those perfect blood transfers, then how
21:40in the world did that body disappear? Uh
21:43you know, before 1/10,000 of a second
21:46was up. How how how how did that happen?
21:48Well, that's not natural cuz matter is
21:51neither created nor destroyed according
21:53to the first law of thermodynamics. So,
21:55we we just have to basically uh uh on
21:58these two laws of thermodynamics, we're
22:00kind of stuck here, you know, with uh
22:02another supernatural causation. The only
22:05thing that we know, of course, from the
22:07Gospels that the body reappears as a
22:09transphysical body, a transformed
22:12transphysical body outside the tomb.
22:14But, you know, all we know is that body
22:17did disappear. And it disappeared as a
22:19whole. And after it would have had to do
22:21so 1/10,000 of a second after the blood
22:24was transferred to the cloth. So, we've
22:26got these two vexing problems. You know,
22:30where in the world in this first-century
22:32cloth
22:33where in the world um you know, did the
22:36energy for the fissioning come from? And
22:38how in the world uh
22:40did the the body disappear as a whole
22:42contrary to the first law of
22:44thermodynamics? And I I I would have to
22:46tell you uh my only explanation is I
22:49really do believe it's a supernatural
22:50cause. I don't think uh that there's
22:53anything naturalistically that can
22:55explain this phenomena. I do think that
22:58the blood stains were transferred as a
23:00whole. I think particle radiation and
23:02radiation pressure from the particle
23:04radiation is the only way that it could
23:06have happened. I do think um that the
23:09the fissioning is caused by supernatural
23:11cause, and I think God just wanted to
23:13leave us with an image that was actually
23:15constituted by the very particles uh
23:18that uh Jesus was composed of. And so I
23:21I do think it's another reason for
23:23believing that it's the authentic burial
23:25cloth uh of Jesus. And by the way, uh
23:28you know, um another reason why we were
23:31uh pretty sure that neutrons were were
23:33present is uh you can use the
23:36Basically, there's fluorescing um that
23:38takes place on on on on the cloth. And
23:41fluorescing just means, you know, when
23:43when you shine a fluorescent light on on
23:45let's say a linen cloth, it it'll
23:47reflect at a certain level. Well,
23:50actually, neutrons of the neutrons are
23:52are extra neutrons are emitted, and they
23:55embed themselves um in the cloth, why
23:58it's going to affect the fluorescing
24:00level of that cloth. So, the uh the uh
24:03the
24:03uh fluorescing intensity of that cloth.
24:06And when it does uh affect it, uh the
24:08place where the mass density of the
24:10neutrons is is the greatest is going to
24:13create the most intense fluorescing.
24:16Well, if you look at what is predicted
24:18by Monte Carlo and particle software for
24:20the distribution of the particles, and
24:22you then just look at the fluorescing uh
24:25the differentiation of the fluorescing
24:27along that whole cloth, they correspond
24:30remarkably well,
24:32probably indicating that neutrons did
24:35affect the intensity of the of the
24:37fluorescence of the cloth uh as well as
24:41throwing off um the uh the the carbon
24:43dating uh of the uh of the body by
24:46adding a whole lot of extra carbon 14 uh
24:49to to to the cloth. And so, you know,
24:52you start putting these things together,
24:54uh you can see uh pretty clearly. And by
24:56the way, those blood stains, they really
24:59do tell you what happened you know,
25:03anatomically
25:04to the body of the shroud man, who I
25:07obviously believe is Jesus, but they
25:09really do tell you uh the the story that
25:12we are given, the very unique
25:14crucifixion of Jesus that that we are
25:18given in the Gospels. That that's an
25:20unusual crucifixion. First of all, we
25:22only have one crucifixion the whole
25:24history of crucifixion that we know of
25:26where a man is crowned with thorns. And
25:28and of course, that's Jesus.
25:31And and uh the reason for it makes
25:33sense, king of the the accusation of
25:35being king of the Jews. It makes sense,
25:38of course. This is a a Syrian Christ
25:40thorn is is the thorn that that actually
25:43made those specific images on the
25:45shroud, which comes exactly from the
25:47region of northern Judea, Jerusalem, the
25:50you know, uh the uh
25:53um the whole Levant area.
25:55Excuse me.
25:57And so,
25:58you can see that the uh
26:01the uh uh you know, corresponds to to
26:04Jesus's particular crucifi- Again, we
26:06see the spear wound.
26:09And that spear wound between the fifth
26:10and sixth ribs that's going up into
26:14uh you know, the the thoracic cavity.
26:16And then finally, of course, the into
26:18the plural sac is is actually what's
26:21causing the phenomenon that John the the
26:23evangelist thought was blood and water
26:26flowing from his side. But you can see
26:28right there, you can actually see not
26:31only the the the the image of where the
26:34hole is between the fifth and sixth
26:36ribs. You can actually see
26:39not just the blood around there, which
26:42you certainly do see, but also the the
26:44plural fluid that's coming from the
26:47plurals the plural uh
26:49sac surrounds the lungs, right? And so,
26:52essentially, that spear is going up into
26:55the thoracic cavity. As it's going up at
26:57a slight angle toward the left into the
26:59thoracic cavity, it's going to nick the
27:00heart on the way up and then burst the
27:03plural sac, which is under significant
27:05pressure. Remember that the man who is
27:08is being crucified. And so, if he's
27:10being crucified, he's pulling himself up
27:13and the the the fluid in the plural sac
27:16is going to be gaining in pressure and
27:19when that spear hits it, it's going to
27:21first the blood that will come out cuz
27:23it nicks the heart and then will come
27:25what John thought was water, but that's
27:27the clear plural fluid, which is
27:30identified as plural fluid on the cloth.
27:34And you can see, by the way,
27:35the same plural stains
27:37uh that are are on the uh the face of
27:39the man that were coming through his
27:41nose and through his mouth.
27:44Uh you can see those uh same plural
27:46stains uh not only the uh the Shroud of
27:49Turin, but the face cloth of Oviedo,
27:51which probably covered the face of
27:53Jesus, the the shroud man, uh as he was
27:56being transported from uh the cross uh
27:59to the tomb.
28:00So, you start putting these evidences
28:02together, I mean, who is it? Well,
28:05first of all, the supernatural causation
28:07is a dead giveaway that uh this is not
28:10an ordinary crucifixion. We don't have
28:13any perfect three-dimensional
28:15photographic negative images from both
28:18the inside and surface of the body uh
28:20from anywhere, any artifact, anytime in
28:23history. In fact, we don't have one
28:25produced by modern means, either,
28:27because all the attempts, of course, uh
28:29to produce a a you know, a fraudulent
28:32replica of the shroud uh in the modern
28:34time have all failed miserably. So, all
28:38I can say is is yeah, this is truly like
28:41a photographic negative image, except it
28:43wasn't produced uh by uh um you know,
28:47what we would call a standard white
28:48light source. It was produced
28:51by radiation
28:53that
28:55etched very delicately etched the
28:58hyper surface of the cloth
29:02and of course any kind of chemical or
29:05you know, substance that was used would
29:08have obviously like if it were a liquid
29:10or a dye or a rub
29:12or a vapor it would have obviously
29:14penetrated into the medulla of the
29:18fibers, the middle of the fibers and
29:20into the middle of the cloth which the
29:23the image doesn't. In fact, there's no
29:24detectable substance producing the image
29:26at all. So the full thing is is this a
29:30contact image is produced by substance?
29:32No, it's not. And the attempt to
29:34replicate that doesn't even explain the
29:36circumstances.
29:37So I think you've got a pretty good case
29:39that not only is this
29:41Jesus, I think you have very good
29:43evidence that the the gospel narratives
29:45are correct. It's not just the spear
29:46wound by the way.
29:47When you start looking at the 39 strokes
29:49on the back from obviously the
29:51scourging,
29:53you can see that it is produced by a
29:54Roman flagrum. It's not produced by a
29:57medieval single strand whip. It is a
30:00triple stranded
30:02Roman flagrum that has you know, some
30:05pellets
30:06on the end of it. It could have been
30:07bone chips or lead pellets that embed
30:10themselves into the skin of the person
30:13you know, who's being flogged. So
30:15essentially we've got a very good
30:18verification. You can even see the
30:20piercing wound. You can
30:22you know, obviously Dr. Zugibe did a
30:25very fine job on this
30:27anatomically to show that the nail
30:29probably penetrated this lower part of
30:32the palm here and the nail went in and
30:35followed this with a little crease here
30:38called the thenar furrow. Followed the
30:40channel behind the three furrow uh came
30:43out right in the back of the wrist. So,
30:46Pierre Barbet was partially correct. Uh
30:49you know, the the nail did go through
30:50the back of the wrist, but it actually
30:53went through the front bottom part of
30:55the palm um uh not through the wrist
30:59linearly, but at an angle through uh the
31:02channel behind the thenar furrow.
31:04>> Wow.
31:05Unfortunately, I think we're going to
31:07have to leave our our listeners and
31:09viewers with that uh thumbnail sketch.
31:11Fortunately, it's a thorough thumbnail
31:13sketch and one that gives solid
31:15indication as to the evidence which the
31:17shroud itself furnishes. I liked at
31:20various points you kind of
31:21differentiated between what this proves
31:24and then what this leads us to believe.
31:27So, you you know, you describe how the
31:29causality of it we can render a kind of
31:32account, but we also recognize that the
31:35source of that causality is, you know,
31:39it's a type of thing for which we cannot
31:41give a natural explanation. So, there's
31:44a quality to the testimony which goes
31:46beyond our natural comprehension.
31:48Obviously, there's an intelligibility to
31:50it as you describe in so far as we can
31:52subject it to scientific testing and
31:55from the effects which we perceive, you
31:58know, infer things or prove things as to
32:00the cause. But then I yeah, you used the
32:02word believe. It doesn't necessarily
32:04prove that Jesus Christ is God. Um but
32:08it gives us yeah, further testimony, a
32:10kind of motive of credibility for
32:12concluding to that by God's gift um by
32:16his grace.
32:17So, yeah, I'm very grateful for you
32:19having having taken the time. Um very
32:21grateful for you having, you know, kind
32:23of patiently laid out some of these
32:25enigmas as you described them. Um are
32:27there places where you have done um even
32:30longer accountings of the enigmas of the
32:32shroud or various other features of the
32:34crowd which come in for comment?
32:36>> Yes, I have [clears throat] the a book
32:38called
32:39Christ, Science, and Reason.
32:42If you go there's a 70-page chapter
32:44there elucidating the enigmas
32:47on chapter three
32:49of that book. Also, I have
32:53in this new Magisterium 2.0 that'll come
32:56out at the end of the month. In the
32:58source library, there are three articles
33:01on the shroud. The first is on the
33:02dating of the shroud, the second is on
33:04blood stains and the crucifixion. The
33:06third
33:07one was a long one is on particle
33:10radiation,
33:11the resurrection, and the image.
33:13So, those three things are there. Also,
33:16you can just ask Magisterium
33:18any question you want. Just say, oh,
33:21you know, what are the 46 enigmas or
33:23something on the Shroud of Turin?
33:25And it will answer it.
33:27If you wait around till the end of the
33:29month,
33:30you will be transferred over
33:32automatically to Magisterium 2.0. And
33:35the whole source library will be there
33:37all footnoted to the scientific studies
33:40that talk about what I was talking about
33:42today.
33:44>> Tremendous. All right, thank you so
33:46much, Father Spitzer. I'm I'm grateful
33:47for you having taken the time.
33:49>> Thank you for allowing me and thanks for
33:51the honor of being here, Father Gregory.
33:55>> Turning then to you, the viewer and
33:56listener, thanks so much for tuning into
33:57this episode of Godsplaining. If you
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