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Does online activism even work? | with Moya Lothian-McLean — Transcript

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0:00in the wake of the viral all eyes on
0:01Rafa AI generated image there's been a
0:03renewed conversation about online
0:05activism and how effective it really is
0:07is it just virtue signaling there's so
0:09much arguing and infighting online and
0:11it can get quite overwhelming so I
0:12really want to create a little space
0:13here where we can just hash things out
0:15in a way that feels helpful so today I'm
0:17delighted to say I'm joined by MOA
0:19Lothian mlan a journalist and
0:21contributing Editor to Navara media who
0:23has written extensively about activism
0:25and it was going to help us unravel some
0:27of the debates around online activism
0:29especially in relation to Gaza so MOA
0:31thank you for being it you smashed that
0:32name pronunciation thank you very much I
0:34was a little bit stressed about it I
0:35know you practiced no McAn here you have
0:38the GBS honor of being our first ever
0:40guest be oh my God okay well I really
0:42have to put a little big Gunz out there
0:44yeah depending on how it goes possibly
0:45our last all right so let's start with
0:47the the all eyes on Rafa image we'll put
0:49it behind us this was this AI image that
0:51was shared tens of millions of times
0:53celebrity shared it um activist shared
0:56it immediately in classic internet
0:57fashion it was a big thing and then
0:59there was a backlash to it and then a
1:00backlash to that backlash some people
1:02have said that it's just basically
1:03completely useless is that your gut
1:05response to it 47 million people shared
1:08that which isn't something to be sniffed
1:10at my gut reaction to it at first was
1:13this is really annoying and then I
1:14thought again I thought hang on this has
1:16got some of the most traction that we've
1:18seen for something related to what I
1:22call and a lot of people other people
1:23call jensine GS and sometimes you have
1:26to have watered down elements sadly in
1:29order to be affected it's not the only
1:30thing that's coming out of there it
1:32doesn't mean it doesn't stop there some
1:33people might stop at that image but
1:35other people go on and they will read
1:37about what's happening Raa and then they
1:38will read about what's been happening in
1:40Gaza and Palestine as a whole and then
1:41they will go back and read more there is
1:43always a place where people have to
1:45start and I think by trying to shut down
1:48that as a potential starting point it
1:50says more about the fact that that image
1:53is something that people feel they can
1:54control when they have very little
1:55control over what's actually happening
1:57in Rafa and to Palestinians in Gaza as
2:00it's much easier to direct anger that
2:03has no other Outlet against the people
2:06in power who are committing these acts
2:09against people that you feel you can
2:10actually make a difference with if even
2:12if that's like your cousin who hasn't
2:13shared anything about Palestine thus far
2:15and you can instead direct all this
2:17anger that you feel on them for not
2:19doing enough I think you touched on a
2:21few things that were going to that was a
2:23wonderful start um first of all why was
2:26your got response that it was annoying
2:27cuz I've been on the internet a long
2:28time and and I think when you're on the
2:32internet a long time in these spaces a
2:33long time you see everything you become
2:35desensitized and you forget that for a
2:37lot of people this is the first time
2:38that they might be engaging some doing
2:40this or the first round and I'm also
2:42aware of you know I've seen lots of
2:44rounds of online activism in this in
2:46this sense and I'm aware of that it
2:49doesn't tend to translate into like
2:51long-term political tangible change but
2:54that doesn't mean it doesn't have a
2:55really important impact Yeah you
2:57mentioned you know like your cousin your
2:59random cousin wasn't my cousin I my
3:01cousin good a generic cousin right cuz I
3:04feel like in my opinion in order to make
3:06any kind of meaningful change right you
3:08need to get like a critical mass of
3:10people and most people are not as
3:11Internet poisoned as you or I and
3:14perhaps not you know super politically
3:16aware or keep up with the news or
3:17whatever so if your cousin who posts
3:19Instagram two times a year comes out and
3:20posts that it's at least a bit of a
3:23bellweather right that something is
3:25moving in the right direction Something
3:27is Shifting and I think something I've
3:29not over let's let's talk about like BLM
3:32really quick I know we'll do it later
3:33it's literally the next paragraph have
3:35you seen these cards my goodness but
3:37like the thing is it does shift language
3:40when these things happen the ways people
3:41think and the ways they talk about a
3:44subject does change and even if that's
3:46not affecting maybe the politicians who
3:48are making decisions per se this is new
3:49generations of people who have become
3:51aware of an issue and we'll talk about
3:53an issue and you know Palestine and
3:55what's happening in Palestine is cutting
3:57through to people that in my life and my
4:00friends lives that have never discussed
4:02this before and are now really upset and
4:05aware and reading up about this and that
4:07is because of the stuff they're seeing
4:09on social media there you go I mean to
4:11come back to you know you said it was a
4:13sort of um I don't to use these words
4:14but it's a sort of a sanitized image
4:15right it's an AI image one of the
4:17criticisms of it is that it's not even a
4:18real image but you know there's there's
4:20arguments to me made there that people
4:21have made of like for example you know
4:23most of the images coming out of
4:24particularly Gaza are incredibly
4:25distressing are not things that a person
4:27might want to share for a variety of
4:29reasons because they are so heavy right
4:32similarly you know it went most viral
4:33this image on Instagram a place that
4:35will absolutely nuke anything yeah
4:38vaguely heavy yeah you know Twitter of
4:40course absolute Wild West you can do
4:41what you want so you know the fact that
4:43it is such a sanitized image does that
4:44speak more to the limitations of these
4:46platforms well absolutely this is
4:48another thing that you talk about this
4:51for hours but when you're doing online
4:52activism you're organizing according to
4:55the rules set by social media platforms
4:58and the sanitization yeah that is
4:59something think about why it was shared
5:01so much I mean look at the most popular
5:02pop star in the world Taylor Swift one
5:05of the most sanitized pop stars in the
5:06world and I'm a Swifty so I don't feel
5:07like I'm cussing out saying this the
5:09broader the appeal the more likely it is
5:13to get that buying and that's really
5:14annoying because you know you see these
5:16horrific pictures or videos like I've
5:19seen some things on my feeds in the last
5:22seven eight months that I will never
5:25forget I will never get this image out
5:26of my head but as you say your cousin is
5:29your cousin who doesn't really engage in
5:30politics might see that be horrified but
5:32they will not share that and the sharing
5:34is like the first step is the start as
5:36the opening I do think it's important
5:38sure and let's talk about U well the Now
5:40sort of Infamous blackout Tuesday when
5:42everyone posted the black Square to
5:44Instagram is now spoken about kind of
5:47derisively people talk about it as sort
5:49of like the ultimate example of like
5:50performative activism I mean was that a
5:53completely useless thing I wrote about
5:55the blackout cheese day at the time and
5:57it was interesting to me cuz it wasn't
5:59started like it was specifically meant
6:00to be for the music industry I think it
6:02was two black women who created it and
6:03it was um created specifically for the
6:06music industry is to try and show
6:07solidarity or people in the music and
6:09social solidarity after the murder of
6:11George Floyd but it spread beyond that
6:13so we lost all context and meaning and a
6:15lot of these images do lose context and
6:18meaning when they go that Viral but so
6:22long as I think they carry that cool
6:23message of you know what what is this
6:26all eyes on rough what is this this is
6:28meant to signal you know this awareness
6:30of black lives matter and yeah a lot of
6:32the time it won't be ACC companied by
6:33action I think what happens here is
6:35there is there split between the
6:36expectations some people have of like an
6:38image to still have the power to change
6:40the world and the direction of events in
6:42the world versus what actually an image
6:44might have the power to do which is on
6:46an individual level make some people
6:48read up a bit more and maybe donate and
6:50maybe get involved and it's the
6:52disappointment and frustration when you
6:53see people posting something that seems
6:55in congruous with the rest of their
6:57behavior but guess what a lot of people
6:58are hypocrites lot of people don't think
7:00a lot of people like are not going to go
7:02out and suddenly get involved because
7:04these issues seem are very big and scary
7:06to them and yeah I would have you they
7:07have right to feel scared by them
7:09they're not getting bummed to crap and
7:10you know Gaza but that doesn't mean
7:12they're not going to feel like that sure
7:14and we have to if you really want to
7:15campaign in an effective way you have to
7:18understand people's psychology and you
7:20have to understand the work and you have
7:21to understand that image sharing is just
7:22one thing I often compare this to like
7:24pamphlets in the past Instagram is it
7:27not people like it's so useless like
7:29it's used to sharing the stuff and it's
7:30like yeah it is if you think that's the
7:31only mode of activism that's going on
7:34and that suggests to me that you perhaps
7:35aren't doing much more or more involved
7:38in some cases than being on Instagram
7:40because when you're involved in all the
7:41other things that's when you feel a
7:43little bit more like you have tangible
7:45action out in the world it's when you
7:47are only online you're only seeing
7:48online that some cases you can feel
7:50really despondent and I know like a lot
7:52of Palestinians they only mode of
7:54getting out information like that's how
7:55we've seen it they have been reporting
7:57they have been posting may it on social
7:58media said don't stop posting we know
8:00it's not the be or end or but don't stop
8:02posting and yeah the pamphlets of now
8:04and back in the day you know I say back
8:07in the day yester year um but like all
8:09the way through history until we had
8:11this like social media is the mode of
8:12disseminating information information be
8:14disseminated by a pamphlet you know when
8:16the chartists were organizing it would
8:18be pamphlets when I don't know cornal or
8:20whatever you're trying to repal them
8:21pamphlets out on the streets it's always
8:23pamphlets always leaflets once the
8:25printing press was invented that's when
8:26people really started kicking off
8:28because they had the way of like getting
8:29information together yeah they were like
8:31I want to do protestantism now yeah um
8:34on the door Martin Luther it's worth
8:37mentioning actually as you say that that
8:38the phrase online activism is a pretty
8:40broad church right a Palestinian sharing
8:42stuff from the ground is a form of
8:44online activism right it's not
8:45necessarily all just Instagram posts you
8:46know there's that kind of phrase um
8:48don't let great be the enemy of good and
8:50it's like okay yes if someone's doing
8:52the bare minimum I'm not saying give him
8:53a medal but it's still not nothing and I
8:56think there is a certain kind of very
8:58online person that I'm sure we've
8:59encountered that treats activism or or
9:03you know virtue as a kind of competition
9:06it becomes very infy and it becomes a
9:07little bit less around what good can I
9:09do and more about can I win the game of
9:12activism do you know what I mean yeah of
9:14course I know what you mean of course I
9:15know you yes and and that in itself is a
9:17weird sort of kind of virtually
9:18signaling because it's like well are you
9:20helping or are you just um like chiding
9:23people and I feel like again if you want
9:24to get normies on board not the not the
9:26phrase I hate the phrase normies well I
9:28bug fro nor ah I know Norm normal people
9:32are the people we are trying to get on
9:33board when we say normies it instantly
9:35puts this gap between us it's like
9:37there's me and then there's you the nor
9:38me it's like I'm the I'm like yeah I'm
9:40the outlier perhaps cuz I'm more plugged
9:42in but it's like if you want people to
9:43be involved in a broad-based coalition
9:44of politics and you want to be like by
9:47the way this kind of politics might
9:48change your life for the better and I
9:49want to actually talk to you on a level
9:51you can't be like they're a Normy well
9:53also because it the balance is wrong
9:55because we're the sickos who spent a lot
9:57of time online the normies live a much
9:59better than us I'm not going to use but
10:01they they spend all their Time online
10:02too it's just different spaces this is
10:03what we don't see different spaces
10:06everyone's online though well in the
10:07west at least well yeah there's this
10:09kind of broad idea that people with with
10:10large followings have like a duty and a
10:13responsibility to speak out about these
10:14things broadly do you think that's true
10:17on my like personal level I'm like yes
10:19if every person with the large following
10:20was spoke out and said there was a
10:22genocide going on look at it would maybe
10:25more things happen yes I mean you look
10:26at say when Ariana Grande and Katy Perry
10:29got shamed into posting by Kanani the
10:32singer who was like yeah I'm so
10:34disappointed all of y'all and then
10:35suddenly 40 minutes later stories go up
10:38you know so but that to me is less is
10:41like about peers cuz it's your peers
10:43that influence you most and this is a
10:44funny thing about the influence economy
10:46as well in that a lot of research shows
10:48it's less like the Kim K who's going to
10:50influence in posting and more like the
10:52peer like your peer pressure the people
10:54you really see every day in like respect
10:56or in the same industry or whatever it's
10:57them posting that's going to push you
10:59also to post and it's funny when that
11:01critical mass happens and you notice
11:02like I see on my stories a lot I see one
11:04person repost one thing from someone
11:05then I see it on every single other
11:07person I know follows them in the same
11:08sphere in the same industry and it
11:10depends what rules we're using for the
11:11society cuz like under my principles and
11:15I'm like yeah we have a responsibility
11:16to one another to like be aware and
11:19share information for the greater good
11:21of the world but like we live we live in
11:23a society we live in a very
11:25individualistic Society where
11:27responsibility differs from person to
11:29person and everyone could just argue
11:30well it's subjective it's subjective I
11:32don't owe anyone anything and I would
11:34say that is true under the limitations
11:37Sy we have been but if you don't owe
11:39anyone anything how are we ever going to
11:40move forward and create a better world
11:42that's a non-answer to your question
11:44sure sure well I'm going to throw some
11:45of the kind of common counter arguments
11:47at you the first is that if you for
11:50example lizo for whatever reason was
11:51like a real flash point around this
11:53online everyone's like why is it lizo
11:54talking about God I don't know why lizo
11:55of all people was picked but because
11:57she's a minority woman who is both fat
11:59and black and therefore people who for
12:01minorities um are expected to always be
12:04the spokesperson especially if they've
12:06spoken out on other topics that affect
12:08minority Community before there you go
12:10let prop anwers that question thank you
12:12very much the argument is if lizo is
12:14speaking out at Gaza why isn't she then
12:16also speaking out about other issue
12:18other issue and because we live in a
12:19world of constant hell does it become
12:21that lizo is 24-hour rolling news yeah
12:24lizo is actually Sky News yeah is that
12:26the purpose of a lizo this is also
12:28another thing it's the classic ant
12:30question when you say I'm going to speak
12:31out about this issue why you speaking
12:33about this it's a perfectly reasonable
12:34question and it depends who's asking
12:36whether I take that as a good faith
12:39question very true because you know
12:41there are answers to why I'm more
12:43invested in Gaza than perhaps elsewhere
12:45and some of those answers are yeah I
12:47should be more invested in places where
12:49there are similar things going on you
12:51know there's actually nothing of the
12:52level of Gaz are happening right now or
12:54Palestine because it's like it currently
12:56it's the most densely populated area in
12:58the world being bombed at rate that's
12:59like worse than World War III but there
13:01are other places where similar things
13:03are happening like Sudan you know the
13:05last operating Hospital in darur is just
13:06being attacked right now by the rsf and
13:09it's like why do we have more of a stake
13:10in some of these places than and some of
13:11it is we don't value some lives as much
13:14as the others I don't think that applies
13:15as much to Palestine because the whole
13:16point is that you know Western leaders
13:19do not explicitly there's an article in
13:21New Yorker where someone was entering a
13:22state official and they were like do I
13:24think Joe Biden values the lives of
13:25Palestinians as much as Israelis no just
13:27St said it so I don't think applies as
13:28much but it is also we do find it easier
13:31in some places to look focus our
13:33attention on one place we can't spread
13:34our attention everywhere that is the
13:35problem with the attention economy you
13:36expected to spread yourself so thin and
13:39that will wipe you out and you won't get
13:41anything done I always say you should
13:42focus on three things I borrowed this
13:43from a colleague find three things to
13:45focus on and really La in on that the
13:46other thing is that I think countries
13:48like the US and Britain in particular
13:51have a specific stake in Israel and Gaza
13:54yes we helped create that problem we
13:57helped create um Israel as it is today
14:00we helped create the fact that Palestine
14:03is a ghetto you know occupied territory
14:06we're continuing to help we are we don't
14:08just help now we have made it hell and
14:10the US is the biggest funer of um you
14:13know Israel it holds up Israel
14:14everything Israel is doing and doing is
14:16only because of the US that it can
14:18continue to do that and every time we
14:20have had the opportunity to block what
14:21is happening we have failed we are
14:23literally supporting a genocide whether
14:25that is through shipping weapons out
14:26whether that is through political
14:27support whether that is through
14:28financial like part of our security
14:30budgets go on like our Aid budgets our
14:33Aid budgets are going on killing
14:34Palestinians that is crazy so if you
14:36live in the US and the UK and if you are
14:39a member perhaps of a either the
14:42cultural like Elite or the political
14:44Elite or anywhere where you have a
14:45platform I do think if you have in those
14:47countries you have a particular reason
14:49to speak about this issue and a lot of
14:50people in the US have but they spoken
14:52out Israel because of the ties the US
14:54has to Israel like Amy schima the US in
14:56particular is a specific imagined Israel
14:59that doesn't represent what Israel
15:01actually is and what it actually does
15:03and when it is so difficult for
15:05Americans to speak out against Israel
15:07like the academic Nami Klein was
15:09speaking recently and she was in London
15:11and she was talking I was interviewing
15:12her she was talking about Israel and she
15:14was like you know just fully saying like
15:16this is a genocide this is terrible all
15:17of this um and she's an American Jewish
15:19woman no she's Canadian Jewish actually
15:21she's but she's from North America and
15:22she was really nervous and I was like I
15:23wonder we she so nervous I remembered we
15:25have a lot more freedom here I it's not
15:27amazing you still can get like lose jobs
15:29and stuff but in America the backlash
15:31against speaking about Israel North
15:33America is so great it is a real risk to
15:36your group let's pull this back to
15:39lizo no no no this is fast up there's
15:43this idea of a digital Guillotine right
15:46yes you know choppy choppy the idea of
15:48like let's block celebrities who don't
15:49speak out and to be fair it seems to
15:51have sort of worked in some way but it
15:53does seem that some of these people who
15:54were targeted by these quote unquote
15:56digital Guillotines then did a quick
15:58turn around and started speaking out so
16:00is that a form of activism but does that
16:02also have any real material benefit well
16:05we need a longitudal
16:07study graph yeah when I saw the digital
16:10gutin I'm like I I privately was
16:13discussing it with people because the
16:15one is effective this is the thing it's
16:17effective but in the short term in the
16:19long term is it going to be effective
16:21bringing people along with us cuz again
16:22is guilt a good place to operate from I
16:23don't know I really don't know and I'm
16:25not convinced but then it's genocide so
16:27do we need just to be urgent you just
16:29need to like K and get stuff done what I
16:31will say with the digital Guillotine is
16:33the scattergun nature of some online
16:35activism
16:37isn't it's not organized what are your
16:39end goals okay is it just to get them
16:40speaking then like what next how are we
16:42going to bring them along but sadly the
16:44only thing you can do to stop
16:45radicalization or stop people going to
16:47another Community is try and just like
16:49understand and listen and answer
16:51questions um and that doesn't always
16:53work because it's the only way to like
16:55stop someone going else so you watch
16:57people double down like if they're
16:58criticize about something then they'll
16:59just double down even further cuz they
17:01feel attacked and that's what I worry
17:02about with stuff like the digital
17:03Guillotine whether it's just like in
17:05public yeah they're saying this stuff
17:06but in private is it actually going to
17:07change their views and in some cases is
17:09it going to make it worse and also when
17:11it comes to stuff like BDS a lot of
17:13people don't know what BDS actually is
17:15they're like well we're just everyone
17:16organically boycott I don't know uh
17:19Sports Direct it's like no BDS this is
17:21an or BDS it's not just some random
17:23thing you can claim a boycott on anytime
17:25you want it is an organized specific
17:27targeted mve movement that has carefully
17:30chosen who it's going to boycott who it
17:32wants divers from who it wants sanctions
17:34on by saying that everything that you
17:36know there was a thing about the pure gy
17:37founder who's made comments about Israel
17:39but is he funding the Israeli War
17:40Machine is he investing in like the
17:44apparatus that allows this genocide to
17:46happen no in which case he's just an
17:47annoying man who said something like
17:49really disturbing but is it worth
17:51organizing a boycott around people do
17:53not understand how boycotts work and
17:54that is a lack of like top down
17:56political
17:57education yeah fair enough um I think
17:59there's another extreme online thing you
18:01see a lot around uh I don't know the
18:03word is policing but like policing of
18:04language in particular where it's like I
18:06feel like you can very easily lose
18:08someone if you know I think you see it a
18:10lot again with people who are less
18:11online who are perhaps not up with the
18:12very latest terms and they may be
18:15expressing ultimately the correct not
18:17the correct but an opinion you agree
18:19with you know they may be talking from a
18:20place of Love they may be doing it with
18:22out ofate language and so often you'll
18:24see people going down on them not going
18:27down sorry
18:30another new online invention we can do
18:31yeah that's in the Meta Meta yes yeah
18:35we'll see people coming coming down on
18:38them being hard on them
18:43well we see people attacking them for
18:45the language and it's again like you say
18:47they will then double down and I think
18:48something that the you know we talk
18:49about the the YouTube alt-right pipeline
18:52for example something that the the right
18:54but particularly the sort of far right
18:56are very good at is welcoming people in
18:58com them saying don't worry you know
19:00we're not going to have a girl you can
19:01be part of our team and then you've got
19:02a 14-year-old who loves fascism you know
19:04what I mean for a movement on the left
19:05that is generally supposed to be
19:07inclusive don't get be wrong you should
19:08be using the right language but I feel
19:09like sometimes online there needs to be
19:10more of a sense of like how do we get
19:12more people on board rather than being
19:14the one who is the best at this of
19:16course but again it speaks some I think
19:18the very first thing I said which is
19:19that we feel we we try and exercise
19:21control over the things we feel we can
19:22yes and the left as a whole or people
19:25who have Progressive leanings uh which
19:27is a very broad coalition to be fair but
19:29like some of the ones who have more
19:30radical political leadings um who we now
19:33have like real domination in culture and
19:36spaces like that but in the political
19:38sphere we've had our ground completely
19:40ered you know like we've never had such
19:42great representation for say transgender
19:44issues as in you know TV and film and
19:46music but at the same time in the UK
19:48hate crime is the highest it's been in I
19:51think 5 years literally they're trying
19:53to rewrite the equality act the material
19:55conditions for people are being rolled
19:56back and when those kind of things
19:58happen you try and exercise control
20:00where you can and online is not
20:02representative of the whole country it
20:04tends to be like small spheres of people
20:06but it sound it feels like the whole
20:08world when you're in it and so when you
20:10have someone who wanders in who does not
20:12have the rhetoric or the Lexicon that
20:13you have built up as part of your shared
20:15communion that ex exemplifies the values
20:18you built together then immediately it's
20:20like what is this this is so jarring
20:22like ah and people freak out but again
20:24it's it's I just think the online SP is
20:26it's worrying because so much of our
20:28organizing or whatever is done online
20:30it's like we need to get into Community
20:31Center now like get offline now because
20:33it's doing I think it's doing real
20:35damage to the ways we relate to other
20:36people especially through organizing but
20:38it's really difficult because we've
20:40seeded so much ground we're fragmented
20:42we're fighting all the time and it
20:43affects real life like I've had people
20:44call me AER just for where I work who
20:46are literally on the same side as me and
20:48it's like you don't know me you don't
20:50know anything about me like I agree with
20:51you on all these things I agree with you
20:53like and also in the past who cares if I
20:55was a if we had the same beliefs we'd be
20:56trying to organize together yeah you're
20:58going to organize with some people that
20:59you think are whackers you're going to
21:00organize with people that you don't like
21:02to not like someone is not a reason to
21:04politically not organize with them
21:05there's going to be people where you
21:07even politically disagree with them on
21:09some points but the main thing is if you
21:10can get around one issue and get
21:12together you get stuff done and that is
21:14what the right is really good at they're
21:16really good at building a coalition
21:18based on like a few base issues even
21:20when there are some people within that
21:21who agree disagree so much like Naomi
21:25wolf for example and Steve Bannon they
21:28used to be holes apart now they hang out
21:30all the time why is that because they
21:32managed to find things they could like
21:34build a Coan it brings you closer
21:35together but the left is bur the parks
21:37with figh all the time Palestine is the
21:39one thing where we've actually been
21:39pretty good on I'd like to read you a
21:41quote this is from Palestinian author
21:43rajer Sher had I hope I pronounced that
21:46right it says quote with all this
21:47solidarity and with all this pacifer
21:49support nothing has changed the Israelis
21:51are continuing to bomb everything and
21:52the settlers are continuing with their
21:54action only now with the support of the
21:56army and I think this speaks to that
21:57powerlessness you're talking about right
21:59there's a difference between someone not
22:00engaging because they don't care or
22:02they're against it and there's a
22:04difference between that and a person
22:05saying nothing I do is going to stop the
22:08actions of the IDF nothing is going to
22:10make a big geopolitical difference first
22:12of all is that true second of all how do
22:13we counter that feeling of powerlessness
22:15in the first instance no it's not going
22:17to make a big GE political difference
22:19but that doesn't mean it's not going to
22:20make a difference somewhere it
22:22changes the way we speak about things
22:24and we've seen this from the right like
22:26the way and I think this is something we
22:28forget all the time time when we talk
22:29about organizing we're we're always
22:30talking about it as if it's just the
22:32left organizing but you look at the way
22:33our like political sphere has changed
22:36our like the way we discuss issues what
22:38issues are on the table I was for
22:40example doing some video journalism
22:42recently in a landlocked
22:45constituency um in the East Midlands and
22:48every person there blamed what was
22:51happening and like the decline of the
22:53High Street on immigration there were no
22:55migrants it's one of it's literally next
22:57to one of the whitest consti and they
22:58weren't just talking about like they
22:59were talking about Brown migrants if
23:00they' been talking about migrants from
23:02Eastern Europe who you know they read as
23:04white I'd have understood it more but
23:05they were all citing specifically
23:07islamophobic concerns about migration
23:09and it's like how has that message got
23:10to them how has that message got out
23:12there because there's been such you know
23:14campaigning has changed the dial and the
23:16way that we talk about stuff has changed
23:17the dial it might not make a
23:18geopolitical difference right now what
23:19we're doing but it does change how
23:22people start thinking about things and
23:24the the normative attitude to something
23:26there there's a Snowball Effect and this
23:27is the most that I think I've ever seen
23:30and people have' been moving a lot
23:31longer than me have said have seen
23:32people talking about Palestine
23:34understanding Palestine as it is rather
23:37than as this thing which is you know
23:38it's really complex and we can't discuss
23:40it like both sides both sides both sides
23:42instead of saying No this is a nation
23:43that is literally up against a settler
23:45colonial state that's trying to wipe it
23:46out of existence and that is that's huge
23:49that's going to change the dial for
23:50years to come and yes it is too late for
23:52the tens of thousands of people who've
23:55been killed and the people who' been
23:56displaced and it might Palestine might
23:57never look the same again again but we
23:58have to try cuz if you don't try nothing
24:01changes like if the you know the south
24:03anti-apartheid campaigners in South
24:05Africa hadn't tried what would have
24:07happened there was my friend is was in
24:09thec and spent her formative years
24:12growing up like Han out leafers and she
24:13said we didn't think anything would
24:15change until it did and I think about
24:18that so much when you're in the middle
24:19of it you never see the change and some
24:21horrible things will happen before there
24:22might be any change and yes it might
24:24never change but if you don't try it
24:25never possibly will is what I would say
24:28and also how it would counter for
24:29hopelessness that's lovely and also in
24:31the meantime you do get little
24:33Grassroots if it's just getting a little
24:34bit of money to a family or a little you
24:36know what I mean plus also you know the
24:37landlocked constituency it wasn't
24:39because of immigrants it was because of
24:40woke it was because of
24:41pronouns you're so right yeah we too
24:44many pronouns there were too many
24:45pronouns in that it broke the
24:47bank um is online activism is it
24:50important in its own right or is it a
24:52best supplementary to real world
24:54activism what is the real world
24:56anymore what is the this has been
25:00scrubing what is the real world uh
25:02everything's supplementary is it not
25:03there's that quote you have to push it
25:05I'm paraphrasing it terribly it's like
25:07we won't win this thing by doing it one
25:09way you have to push it it from all
25:10directions in many ways so everything is
25:13supplementary now it's not one big thing
25:14that happens that changes everything
25:16well it is if you subscribe to the great
25:17man Hy theory of History um but it's all
25:20these little changes as you said all
25:22these little actions all these or what I
25:24would say is if you are doing online
25:26activism try and pair it with with
25:28something tangible elsewhere just for
25:30your own sake of feeling Community if
25:32you can get out about whether that's
25:34going to a protest or whether that's
25:35going to a meeting being with other
25:37people physically and I know not
25:38everyone has the capacity for that but
25:40if you do it really changes how hopeless
25:43you feel and how boiled you feel by
25:45other people because we live in a world
25:47that tries to teach us you are on your
25:48own you're born alone you're dialine and
25:50yeah technically you're born alone
25:51you're dial alone but you also know
25:52you're surrounded by people a lot of the
25:53time it tries to teach us that all you
25:55have is yourself but actually if you
25:56look at every single system we exist
25:59whether it's you know our roads or
26:01whether it's like the tube or whatever
26:02all our infrastructure even it only it
26:05relies on other people something I've
26:06read really recently this great book
26:08which was talking about how Road rages
26:10really uh comes from the fact that
26:12people in cars have promised this idea
26:13of autonomy promise to see you have
26:15complete control over what you're doing
26:16where you're going and then they get
26:17stuck in traffic and it's like I've been
26:18reminded I actually have no ability to
26:20change the circumstance and now in my
26:22tiny tin car frothing at my own lack of
26:25autonomy and that's road range right
26:27that's why so mad of protest on the road
26:29like kicking them because they have been
26:30held up by a reminder of their own
26:32connectedness the world around them and
26:34that connectedness is also what is going
26:36to keep you going when you feel like
26:38crap when you feel like there is nothing
26:40left and there's nowhere else you can go
26:41on because you're taking all in yourself
26:43and you are not Atlas this is not group
26:45mythology you need to get out there and
26:47like actually be with other people even
26:49it's just sitting in a room for 5
26:50minutes and with protest as well it's
26:52like I don't think the protests are
26:54going to change anything in the minds of
26:55say rishy sunak or kiss Arma but do I
26:57think the protest are going to change
26:58the way we feel that's what's important
27:01that's a great place to end it thank you
27:02MOA where can people find more things
27:04from you oh at the moment mostly
27:05Instagram so I'm on
27:07_ LM uh or you can check me out on Nar
27:11media fantastic and we want to know what
27:13you think in the comments down below as
27:14always we have a wonderful Community
27:15here on scrw deep that never argues so
27:18yeah please let us know your thoughts
27:19about activism and Beyond and as I
27:21always say goodbye

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