Does Canada’s Bill C-16 Violate Free Speech or Protect Human Rights? | The Agenda — Transcript

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1. 0:01>> Steve: WHAT'S IN A NAME?
2. 0:03POTENTIALLY A GREAT DEAL.
3. 0:05UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO PSYCHOLOGY PROFESSOR JORDAN PETERSON HAS A FIGHT ON HIS HANDS AFTER
4. 0:09OBJECTING TO PROPOSED LEGISLATION THAT HE SAYS WOULD VIOLATE HIS FREEDOM OF SPEECH BY
5. 0:14FORCING HIM TO ADDRESS TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE USING THE PRONOUNS OF THEIR CHOOSING.
6. 0:19JOINING US NOW TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE, AND DEBATE WHAT'S AT STAKE:
7. 0:23IN VANCOUVER, B.C.: THERYN MEYER, TRANSGENDER PUNDIT AND YouTuber;
8. 0:30IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL: KYLE KIRKUP, PROFESSOR OF LAW, UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA.
9. 0:34AND HERE IN STUDIO: JORDAN PETERSON, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF
10. 0:38TORONTO; NICHOLAS MATTE, LECTURER, TRANSGENDER STUDIES AT U OF T;
11. 0:43AND, MARY ROGAN, WHOSE ARTICLE ENTITLED "GROWING UP TRANS" IS FEATURED IN THE OCTOBER ISSUE OF
12. 0:47THE WALRUS.
13. 0:51GOOD TO HAVE YOU THREE HERE AND OUR TWO FRIENDS IN POINTS BEYOND.
14. 0:55WE APPRECIATE EVERYBODY BEING ON THE PROGRAM FOR WHAT IS I THINK ONE OF THE HOTTEST TOPICS IN THE
15. 1:00COUNTRY TODAY, PROFESSOR PETERSON, AND IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF YOU.
16. 1:03I THINK BEFORE WE GO ANY FURTHER WITH OUR CONVERSATION HERE, I WANT TO GIVE PEOPLE A SENSE OF
17. 1:09HOW HOT THIS HAS GOT, STARTING ON THE DOWNTOWN CAMPUS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
18. 1:13SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD?
19. 1:14ROLL IT.
20. 1:21[MIXED VOICES] >> WELL, AS YOU CAN SEE, THE OPPONENTS OF FREE SPEECH ARE
21. 1:27CAPABLE OF MAKING A LOT OF INARTICULATE NOISE.
22. 1:32>> FREE SPEECH.
23. 1:33IT'S THE MECHANISM BY WHICH WE KEEP OUR SOCIETY FUNCTIONING.
24. 1:39>> BY DOING THAT, YOU'RE IMPOSING -- >> WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA.
25. 1:44NO, NOT COOL.
26. 1:45NOT COOL.
27. 1:46>> I'M GOING TO POST THIS ONLINE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE PEOPLE TO BE MORE ACCOMMODATING OF TRANS
28. 1:54PEOPLE AT YOUR EVENTS IN THE FUTURE.
29. 1:56>> I'M A PERSON OF COLOUR AND I FEEL ACCOMMODATED.
30. 1:59>> THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE RECORDED INCIDENTS OF TRANS PEOPLE KILLING THEMSELVES
31. 2:04BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BEING INTEGRATED INTO SOCIETY.
32. 2:07>> IF IT WASN'T FOR THIS LAW AND I ASK YOU TO REFER TO ME WITH THE CORRECT PRONOUNS.
33. 2:13>> WHY DO YOU HAVE AUTHORITY TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT AN INDIVIDUAL IS WORTHY OF YOU
34. 2:18USING THEIR PRONOUNS.
35. 2:19IF I ASKED YOU IF YOU WOULD PLEASE USE THE PRONOUNS -- >> IT DEPENDS ON WHAT --
36. 2:26>> Steve: WITH INDULGENCE OF EVERYBODY ELSE ON THE PROGRAM, I'M GOING TO START WITH
37. 2:31PROFESSOR PETERSON OFF THE TOP HERE FOR A WHILE BECAUSE, AS I SUGGESTED, YOU THOUGHT LONG AND
38. 2:36HARD ABOUT THIS.
39. 2:37YOU POSTED A FEW THINGS UP TO YouTube BECAUSE YOU HAD BEEN THINKING LONG AND HARD ABOUT IT.
40. 2:44ONE AND A HALF MILLION HITS LATER, JORDAN, ONE AND A HALF MILLION HITS LATER, THIS HAS
41. 2:50BECOME A HUGE ISSUE.
42. 2:51SO LET'S START THERE.
43. 2:52WHY DID YOU POST THOSE VIEWS TO YouTube IN THE FIRST PLACE?
44. 2:56>> Jordan Peterson: WELL, THERE'S PROXIMATE AND DISTAL REASONS.
45. 3:01THE PROXIMATE REASONS WAS BECAUSE I RECEIVED SOME CORRESPONDENCE FROM CLIENTS OF
46. 3:07MINE WHO HAD BEEN, I WOULD SAY, PERSECUTED IN A VARIETY OF WAYS BY PEOPLE WHO ARE POLITICALLY
47. 3:15CORRECT AND THEY SENT ME SOME DOCUMENTATION ABOUT BILL C-16 AND THE ASSOCIATED POLICY
48. 3:19STATEMENTS ON THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, WHICH I READ, AND WAS NOT VERY HAPPY ABOUT,
49. 3:26AND ALSO BECAUSE THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO DECIDED TO MAKE ANTI-RACISM AND ANTIBIAS
50. 3:32TRAINING, SO-CALLED ANTI-RACISM AND ANTIBIAS TRAINING MANDATORY, WHICH I REGARDED AS AN
51. 3:40INAPPROPRIATE INCURSION BY THE UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATION.
52. 3:43>> Steve: HAVE YOU TAKEN THAT TRAINING YET?
53. 3:45>> Jordan Peterson: NO, AND I DON'T HAVE TO YET.
54. 3:47IT'S THE H.R. PERSONNEL THAT HAVE TO TAKE IT.
55. 3:49>> Steve: IF THEY DECIDE YOU HAVE TO, WILL YOU TAKE IT?
56. 3:52>> Jordan Peterson: NO WAY.
57. 3:53NOT A CHANCE.
58. 3:53>> Steve: YOU REFERRED TO PERSECUTION THAT FRIENDS OR CLIENTS HAD EXPERIENCED.
59. 3:58>> Jordan Peterson: WELL, YEAH.
60. 3:59THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES NOW WHERE THE WORKPLACE HAS BECOME, I WOULD SAY, EXCESSIVELY
61. 4:04POLITICIZED, SO PEOPLE WHO HAVE VIEWPOINTS, AND THIS ALSO INCLUDES, I WOULD SAY, FAIRLY
62. 4:09RADICAL LEFTIST VIEWPOINTS, PEOPLE DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE AT ALL IN BEING ABLE TO USE THE
63. 4:13LANGUAGE OF THEIR CHOICE OR TO HAVE EVEN OPINIONS ABOUT A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS, AND
64. 4:20SO -- I'VE HAD THREE CLIENTS WHO I WOULD SAY HAVE BEEN, WE'LL SAY, HARASSED, I SUPPOSE IS THE
65. 4:28RIGHT WAY OF PUTTING IT -- >> Steve: ON SOCIAL MEDIA OR OTHERWISE?
66. 4:31>> Jordan Peterson: NO, AT WORK, AT WORK, BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE THEIR POLITICAL
67. 4:36OPINIONS, ESSENTIALLY.
68. 4:36>> Steve: AND THE OPINIONS WERE WHAT?
69. 4:39>> Jordan Peterson: I CAN'T TELL YOU TOO MUCH ABOUT IT, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE OF ISSUES --
70. 4:44FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES OF CONFIDENTIALITY.
71. 4:47>> Steve: ESSENTIALLY I GUESS WHAT I'M ASKING IS TO LAY THE CASE OUT.
72. 4:50WHAT IS IT YOU FIND OFFENSIVE ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION?
73. 4:53>> Jordan Peterson: FUNDAMENTALLY, THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT REALLY BOTHERED ME,
74. 4:56ALTHOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER THINGS I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT SINCE.
75. 4:59ONE IS I WAS BEING ASKED, AS EVERYONE IS, TO USE A CERTAIN SET OF WORDS THAT I THINK ARE
76. 5:04CONSTRUCTIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A POLITICAL IDEOLOGY THAT I DON'T BELIEVE IN AND I ALSO
77. 5:09REGARD AS DANGEROUS.
78. 5:10>> Steve: WHAT ARE THOSE WORDS?
79. 5:11>> Jordan Peterson: THOSE ARE THE MADE-UP WORDS THAT PEOPLE NOW DESCRIBE AS GENDER NEUTRAL,
80. 5:15AND SO TO ME, THEY'RE AN ATTEMPT TO CONTROL LANGUAGE AND IN A DIRECTION THAT ISN'T HAPPENING
81. 5:24ORGANICALLY, IT'S NO THE HAPPENING NATURALLY, PEOPLE AREN'T PICKING UP THESE WORDS IN
82. 5:29THE TYPICAL WAY NEW WORDS ARE PICKED UP, BUT BY FORCE AND BY FIAT.
83. 5:33I WOULD SAY BY FORCE BECAUSE THERE'S LEGISLATIVE POWER BEHIND THEM AND I DON'T LIKE THE
84. 5:39MADE-UP WORDS, THEY AND THEY'RE.
85. 5:43>> Steve: THEY IS ONE OF THEM, TO SPEAK TO AN INDIVIDUAL AS THEY.
86. 5:46>> Jordan Peterson: WE CAN'T DISPENSE BETWEEN THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN SINGULAR AND PLURAL.
87. 5:50I KNOW THE ADVOCATES OF THAT PARTICULAR APPROACH SAY THEY HAS BEEN USED FOREVER AS A SINGULAR
88. 5:55AND THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT CORRECT.
89. 5:56IT'S USED AS A SINGULAR IN VERY EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES, LIKE IF YOUR CHILD WISHES TO BRING A
90. 6:01BOOK TO SCHOOL, THEY'RE WELCOME TO DO SO.
91. 6:03>> Steve: THAT'S JUST GRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT.
92. 6:07>> Jordan Peterson: THERE'S SOME DEBATE ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE "THEY" IS USED LIKE THAT
93. 6:12SOMETIMES.
94. 6:12BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN USED AS A SINGULAR REPLACEMENT FOR HE OR SHE.
95. 6:15SO IT'S NOT A TENABLE SOLUTION AND THAT'S THE BEST OF THE SOLUTIONS.
96. 6:19>> Steve: WE UNDERSTAND YOUR VIEWS AND WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM.
97. 6:22YOU'VE DECIDED TO LAY THESE VIEWS OUT IN SOME YouTube DISCOURSES.
98. 6:27>> Jordan Peterson: YES.
99. 6:27>> Steve: YOU PUT THEM UP.
100. 6:28THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN OVERWHELMING.
101. 6:31>> Jordan Peterson: YES.
102. 6:31>> Steve: DID YOU ANTICIPATE YOU WOULD GET THIS KIND OF FEEDBACK?
103. 6:34>> Jordan Peterson: NO, THERE WAS NO WAY OF ANTICIPATING THIS.
104. 6:36YOU MENTIONED IN THE INTRO THAT THIS IS A CONSEQUENCE OF WHAT I'VE DONE.
105. 6:40I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.
106. 6:41IT'S A CONSEQUENCE OF THE FACT -- I THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND I THINK THE RIGHT METAPHOR IS
107. 6:47THERE'S A LARGE FOREST AND IT'S BEEN A HOT, DRY SUMMER OR MAYBE A DROUGHT AND THERE'S PLENTY OF
108. 6:53DEADWOOD GATHERED AND I LIT A SPARK.
109. 6:55YOU CAN'T BLAME THE FOREST FIRE ON THE SPARK.
110. 6:58IT'S JUST NOT POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE TO PUT UP A YouTube VIDEO AND CAUSE THIS KIND OF
111. 7:08BROUHAHA WITHOUT THE GROUNDWORK BEING LAID.
112. 7:10>> Steve: THERE IS OUT THERE AN APPETITE AGAINST POLITICAL CORRECTNESS WHICH IS WHAT YOU
113. 7:13HAVE DESCRIBED THIS AS.
114. 7:14IN FACT, YOUR YouTube VIDEO IS CALLED PROFESSOR AGAINST POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
115. 7:18LET'S ALL MAKE SURE WE'RE SPEAKING THE SAME LANGUAGE HERE.
116. 7:21YOU WOULD DEFINE THAT HOW, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS?
117. 7:23>> Jordan Peterson: I THINK IT'S A PARTICULAR KIND OF I HAD LOGICAL GAME AND -- IDEOLOGICAL
118. 7:31GAME.
119. 7:32IT'S TO MAKE THE PERSON FEEL SUPERIOR AND AXE SWINGING AT THE FOUNDATION OF SOCIETY, SO THE
120. 7:37GAME IS IDENTIFY A DOMAIN OF HUMAN ENDEAVOUR.
121. 7:40NOTE THAT THERE'S A DISTRIBUTION OF SUCCESS.
122. 7:42SOME PEOPLE ARE DOING COMPARATIVELY BETTER AND SOME PEOPLE ARE DOING COMPARATIVELY
123. 7:47WORSE.
124. 7:47DEFINE THOSE DOING WORSE AS VICTIMS.
125. 7:50DEFINE THOSE DOING BETTER AS PERPETRATORS.
126. 7:52IDENTIFY WITH THE VICTIMS.
127. 7:54HAVE YOURSELF A SET OF ENEMIES HANDY TO VENT YOUR RESENTMENT ON.
128. 7:59FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT EVEN THOUGH IT DIDN'T REALLY REQUIRE ANY WORK ON YOUR PART.
129. 8:04AND THEN ENDLESSLY REPEAT.
130. 8:05THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SEEING HAPPENING ON CAMPUSES IN PARTICULAR FOR THE LAST 30
131. 8:12YEARS?
132. 8:12IN YOUR YouTube YOU DESCRIBE THOSE WHO OPPOSE YOU AS RESENTFUL AND UNINFORMED.
133. 8:19WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S ACCURATE?
134. 8:22>> Jordan Peterson: I WORKED FOR THE NDP UNTIL THE TIME I WAS 14 I WORKED WITH RACHEL NOTLEY'S
135. 8:27MOTHER AND FATHER AND KNEW THEM VERY WELL.
136. 8:29I ACTUALLY FOUND THEM AS ADMIRABLE PEOPLE AS WELL AS THE OTHER PEOPLE ON THE SOCIALIST
137. 8:35END OF THE DISTRIBUTION WHO ARE GENERALLY WORKING FOR THE RIGHTS OF WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, COMING
138. 8:39OUT OF THE SASKATCHEWAN TRADITION THAT ESTABLISHED HEALTH CARE AND PENSION AND ALL
139. 8:42OF THAT.
140. 8:43BUT I NOTED AT THE SAME TIME THAT THE PARTY FUNCTIONARIES, LET'S SAY, WEREN'T THAT SORT OF
141. 8:47PERSON AT ALL.
142. 8:48THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE WORKING CLASS.
143. 8:52THEY WOULDN'T STAND UP FOR THEM.
144. 8:53I COULDN'T PUT MY FINGER ON IT UNTIL I READ GEORGE ORWELL WHICH WAS WRITTEN FOR THE LEFT BOOK
145. 8:59CLUB IN THE U.K. AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE FAILURES OF SOCIALISM IN THE UNITED KINGDOM
146. 9:04AND THEN DISCUSSED INTELLECTUAL SOCIALISTS.
147. 9:13>> Steve: RESENTFUL AND UNINFORMED?
148. 9:16>> Jordan Peterson: THE RESENTFULNESS IS THE WILLINGNESS TO PULL DOWN ANY STRUCTURE
149. 9:20THAT'S HIERARCHICAL BECAUSE OF RESENTMENT OF NOT BEING ON THE TOP.
150. 9:26AND UNINFORMED IS THE CONSISTENT ATTEMPT TO FORCE EVERY POLITICAL ISSUE INTO A SINGLE -- INTO THE
151. 9:32DOMAIN ENCOMPASSED AND VIEWED THROUGH THIS SINGLE LENS.
152. 9:34>> Steve: JORDAN, LET'S DO ONE MORE QUESTION AND THEN GET EVERYBODY ELSE INTO THE
153. 9:39CONVERSATION.
154. 9:40YOU KNOW OF COURSE SINCE THIS STORY BROKE YOU'VE BEEN CALLED A LOT OF THINGS.
155. 9:43>> Jordan Peterson: YEAH.
156. 9:43>> Steve: ONE OF WHICH IS A TRANSPHOBE.
157. 9:47SOME PEOPLE HAVE ACCUSED YOU OF USING THE FREE SPEECH ISSUE TO MASK WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON
158. 9:52HERE, WHICH IS AN ATTEMPT TO DEPRIVE OTHER PEOPLE OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE ARE THEIR
159. 9:57LEGITIMATE RIGHTS.
160. 9:58WE'LL GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE A TRANSPHOBE.
161. 10:01>> Jordan Peterson: I CAN TELL YOU I'VE RECEIVED MORE LETTERS FROM TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE
162. 10:05SUPPORTING ME THAN OPPOSING ME, AND I NEVER SAID ANYTHING REALLY ABOUT TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE ABOUT
163. 10:10THEIR EXISTENCE, ALTHOUGH THAT WAS THE FIRST THING I WAS ACCUSED OF DOING.
164. 10:13I DIDN'T SAY THAT TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE DIDN'T EXIST.
165. 10:16I SAID THAT GENDER IDENTITY, GENDER EXPRESSION AND BIOLOGICAL SEX DON'T VARY INDEPENDENTLY,
166. 10:23WHICH THEY DON'T.
167. 10:23SO THIS ISSUE IS IN SOME SENSE ONLY PERIPHERALLY ABOUT TRANSSEXUAL ISSUES.
168. 10:29IT'S MORE CENTRALLY ABOUT GENDER ISSUES AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT, AND I THINK IT'S THE BIGGEST
169. 10:34ISSUE, IS THAT IT'S A FREE SPEECH ISSUE.
170. 10:36>> Steve: OKAY.
171. 10:37LET US CONTINUE TO EXPLORE ALL OF THOSE ISSUES THAT YOU HAVE JUST RAISED.
172. 10:43WHY DON'T WE DO THIS?
173. 10:44LET'S TAKE A MOMENT.
174. 10:45WE'RE GOING TO EXPLAIN A FEW BASIC THINGS HERE.
175. 10:47THE ISSUE OF SO-CALLED NON-TRADITIONAL PRONOUNS GO WITH UNTRADITIONAL GENDER IDENTITIES.
176. 10:53NEW YORK CITY, FOR EXAMPLE, RECOGNIZES 29 GENDER EXPRESSIONS.
177. 11:01FOR EXAMPLE, PAN GENDER, QUEER GENDER, GENDER FLUID, CROSS DRESSER, BIGENDERED, GENDER
178. 11:10BLENDER, AND THE LIST GOES ON.
179. 11:12NICHOLAS, YOU TEACH TRANS STUDIES.
180. 11:15IF YOU WOULD, GIVE US A BRIEF PRIMER ON SO MANY GENDER IDENTITIES THAT IN YOUR VIEW
181. 11:21REQUIRE NON-TRADITIONAL PRONOUNS.
182. 11:26>> Nicholas Matte: BASICALLY IT'S NOT CORRECT THAT THERE IS SUCH A THING AS BIOLOGICAL SEX.
183. 11:29I'M AN HISTORIAN OF MEDICINE.
184. 11:31I CAN UNPACK THAT FOR YOU AT GREAT LENGTH, IF YOU WANT, BUT IN THE INTERESTS OF TIME, I
185. 11:37WON'T.
186. 11:37THAT'S A POPULAR MISCONCEPTION.
187. 11:41IN MY CLASSES WE'RE LOOKING AT ACTUAL RESEARCH AND IDENTIFYING WAYS THAT CURRENT SOCIAL ISSUES
188. 11:46RELATED TO TRANS PEOPLE OR THINGS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH TRANS, SUCH AS FREE SPEECH
189. 11:52ARGUMENTS AND CLAIMS, HOW THAT CONNECTS TO THE WAY THAT PEOPLE ARE THINKING, THE WAY THEIR
190. 11:56RESEARCH HAS BEEN FRAMED -- >> Steve: GIVE US SOME OF THE OTHER PRONOUNS THAT ONE WOULD
191. 12:01HEAR TYPICALLY.
192. 12:01>> Nicholas Matte: I DON'T FOCUS ON PRONOUNS BECAUSE IT'S PART OF A FIS CULTURE.
193. 12:07I'LL EXPLAIN.
194. 12:08WE DON'T START FROM A FIS NORMATIVE PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T GO VERY FAR.
195. 12:14>> Steve: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
196. 12:15>> Nicholas Matte: I'LL START THERE.
197. 12:20CIS IS THE POPULAR ASSUMPTION THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE AND DEFINITELY STRUCTURES CONVEY
198. 12:25THAT THERE IS SUCH A THING AS MALE AND FEMALE, THAT THEY CONNECT TO BEING A GIRL OR BOY
199. 12:29OR A MAN OR A WOMAN AND THEN SOMETIMES THAT WILL ALSO RECOGNIZE TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE, AS
200. 12:36YOU MENTIONED, BECAUSE THAT'S -- SOMETIMES ALSO REFERRED TO AS A GENDER BINARY, SO THING THAT
201. 12:41FITS WITHIN A GENDER BINARY CAN WORK WITHIN CIS NORMTIVITY.
202. 12:49CIS NORMTIVITY IS EVERYONE ASSUMES THERE IS BOTH MALE AND FEMALE SO IT'S NOT LOOKED AT AS
203. 12:57TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY THE CASE -- >> Steve: YOUR VIEW WOULD BE IT'S MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN
204. 13:02THAT.
205. 13:02>> Nicholas Matte: IT'S NOT MY VIEW.
206. 13:03I KNOW FOR OVER 50 YEARS SCIENTISTS HAVE SHOWN THAT'S NOT TRUE AND YET OUR SOCIAL SYSTEMS
207. 13:08HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND A WAY TO ADDRESS THE LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY THAT PEOPLE --
208. 13:12>> Jordan Peterson: CAN I STEP IN, STEVE?
209. 13:14>> Steve: STAND BY FOR A SECOND.
210. 13:15I WANT TO GET EVERYBODY ELSE IN FURTHER.
211. 13:18>> Nicholas Matte: I DIDN'T INTERRUPT YOU EITHER.
212. 13:20>> Steve: MARY, HOW PREVALENT IS TRANSGENDERISM IN OUR WORLD?
213. 13:23>> Mary Rogan: I DON'T THINK I CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
214. 13:26I THINK THAT, I WOULD AGREE WITH NICHOLAS, THAT THERE IS SOME DISCREPANCY ON THESE NUMBERS AND
215. 13:32THERE IS SOME VARIANCE ON THE NUMBERS.
216. 13:36I GUESS -- I GUESS I'M CURIOUS AS TO WHY WE NEED TO PUT A NUMBER ON THIS BECAUSE THAT'S
217. 13:42COME UP -- I LISTENED TO JORDAN'S VIDEO AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS MENTIONED.
218. 13:50YOU KNOW, THIS IS STATISTICALLY, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SO FEW INTERSEX PEOPLE AS TO BE -- IT'S
219. 13:58INSIGNIFICANT.
220. 13:58>> Steve: THERE'S A REASONABLE CURIOSITY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HALF THE
221. 14:02POPULATION OR LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION, THAT'S ALL.
222. 14:05>> Mary Rogan: NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT.
223. 14:06I GUESS WHAT I'M SAYING IS IT SEEMS THAT THERE'S A FOCUS ON THAT IN TERMS OF WHAT WE KNOW
224. 14:11NOW, AND I THINK WHAT NICHOLAS IS TRYING TO SAY, AND I DON'T WANT TO PRESUME TOO MUCH, I
225. 14:17THINK THAT THAT NUMBER IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT EVOLVES AS WE EVOLVE AND OUR LANGUAGE
226. 14:22EVOLVES AND WE GIVE PEOPLE THE ROOM TO COME FORWARD AND EXPRESS WHO THEY ARE.
227. 14:26>> Steve: LET ME AS PART OF THAT EXPRESSION AND EVOLUTION OF THIS ISSUE, THE USE OF
228. 14:31NON-TRADITIONAL PRONOUNCE.
229. 14:32WHERE ARE YOU ON THAT?
230. 14:33>> Mary Rogan: I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY HOW THEY WANT TO BE ADDRESSED.
231. 14:37I DO BELIEVE THAT.
232. 14:39IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE IN WRITING THE WALRUS PIECE, I BEGAN AT ONE PLACE AND ENDED AT ANOTHER AND
233. 14:45I'LL LET EVERYONE PAY THEIR $7 TO FIND OUT HOW, THEY CAN BUY THE MAGAZINE.
234. 14:49BUT I THINK THAT FOR ME, IDENTIFYING AS MALE AT A VERY LATE STAGE IN MY LIFE, I DON'T
235. 14:56HAVE -- I DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF ATTACHMENT TO THE PRONOUNCE "SHE."
236. 15:00YOU COULD HAVE SAID "GIRAFFE."
237. 15:03I FOUND A WAY AT A VERY EARLY AGE NOT TO HEAR THAT WORD.
238. 15:06IT MEANT NOTHING TO ME.
239. 15:07SO I DIDN'T DIVE INTO THE PRONOUN "HE."
240. 15:10>> Steve: IF I WERE GOING TO REFER TO YOU IN THE THIRD PERSON, YOU WOULD WANT ME TO
241. 15:15CALL YOU THEY?
242. 15:16>> Mary Rogan: YES.
243. 15:16>> Steve: BECAUSE THAT ENCAPSULATES WHAT?
244. 15:20>> Mary Rogan: I THINK IT REFLECTS WHERE I AM NOW.
245. 15:22BECAUSE OF MY LIVED EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW, FIVE DECADES AS BEING IDENTIFIED CERTAINLY BY THE
246. 15:27WORLD AS FEMALE SOME OF THE TIME, NOT ALL OF THE TIME, MY LIVED EXPERIENCE WAS LARGELY
247. 15:34FEMALE, AND I PERSONALLY AM NOT SORT OF READY TO JUMP IN WHOLLY INTO HAVING PEOPLE CALL ME "HE,"
248. 15:41BUT I'M CERTAINLY FAR ENOUGH ALONG IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, HOW I FEEL INTERNALLY THAT I DON'T
249. 15:47WANT TO BE CALLED "SHE."
250. 15:48>> Steve: UNDERSTOOD.
251. 15:49LET'S GO TO BRITISH COLUMBIA.
252. 15:50THERYN, I WANT YOU TO HELP US UNDERSTAND FOR OUR VIEWERS WHO DON'T KNOW YOU AND DON'T KNOW
253. 15:55YOUR WORK, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO DESCRIBE YOURSELF.
254. 16:01>> Theryn Meyer: WELL, I MAKE POLITICAL COMMENTARY MOSTLY ON YouTube AND I MOSTLY FOCUS ON
255. 16:12BASICALLY COUNTERING WITH MY OWN PERSONAL PERSPECTIVES, COUNTERING WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE
256. 16:19THE KIND OF HEGEMONY SURROUNDING -- THE POLITICAL HEGEMONY SURROUNDING TRANS
257. 16:27POLITICS AND WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE QUITE RIDICULOUS OPINIONS COMING FROM WHAT HAS COME TO BE
258. 16:38KNOWN AS KIND OF THE POLITICAL TRANS LOBBY.
259. 16:41>> Steve: I'M NOT AS GOOD AT THIS ISSUE AS I SHOULD BE, SO I'M GOING TO LOOK TO YOU TO HELP
260. 16:46ME MAKE THE RIGHT -- USE THE RIGHT WORDS HERE TO DESCRIBE HOW YOU WERE BORN AND WHAT YOU SEE
261. 16:52YOURSELF AS NOW.
262. 16:53SO IS IT ACCURATE TO SAY YOU'RE A TRANS WOMAN?
263. 16:58>> Theryn Meyer: YES, I'M -- I WISH I LIVED IN A WORLD WHERE THAT WAS JUST OBVIOUS AND I
264. 17:04DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT TO PEOPLE, BUT APPARENTLY I DO.
265. 17:07I MEAN, YES, I'M JUST A WOMAN.
266. 17:09>> Steve: IS THIS TO SAY YOU WERE BORN MALE BUT NOW ARE FEMALE?
267. 17:14>> Theryn Meyer: YES.
268. 17:15I TRANSITIONED FROM MALE TO FEMALE.
269. 17:18>> Steve: IN WHICH CASE DO I REFER TO YOU -- I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION I ASKED
270. 17:24MARY, WHICH IS, DO I REFER TO YOU AS "HER" OR "SHE" NOW?
271. 17:29>> Theryn Meyer: YES, YOU DO.
272. 17:30>> Steve: YOU DO.
273. 17:31OKAY.
274. 17:31HOW DO YOU RELATE TO THE EXPERIENCES WE HAVE HEARD ARISE DURING THIS DEBATE WHERE GENDER
275. 17:36IDENTITIES AND PRONOUNS ARE UP FOR GRABS, IF YOU LIKE?
276. 17:43>> Theryn Meyer: I'M VERY SKEPTICAL OF THE IDEOLOGY SURROUNDING GENDER IDENTITY.
277. 17:51I DON'T BELIEVE THERE ARE 29-PLUS GENDER IDENTITIES OR GENDERS.
278. 17:58I BELIEVE THERE'S MALE AND FEMALE AND THEN THERE'S SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN, AND MOST
279. 18:03PEOPLE FALL AROUND THAT.
280. 18:04AND JUST PEOPLE WHO ARE IN BETWEEN DOES NOT CONSTITUTE ANY AGENDA.
281. 18:09THERE ARE TWO GENDERS, PERIOD, AND THAT IS BIOLOGICALLY A SOUND ARGUMENT TO MAKE.
282. 18:15JUST BECAUSE -- BECAUSE THE ARGUMENT THAT WAS MADE EARLIER IN THE SHOW, IT WASN'T AN
283. 18:21ARGUMENT BUT A CLAIM, THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BIOLOGICAL SENSE.
284. 18:26WELL, THAT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
285. 18:27IT IS TRUE THAT THERE ARE MULTIPLE CHARACTERISTICS AND THERE ARE MULTIPLE FACTORS THAT
286. 18:34GO INTO DETERMINING SEX AND THAT SEX IS NOT A -- THAT THERE IS A SPECTRUM TO IT, JUST LIKE MOST
287. 18:41THINGS IN NATURE, MOST THINGS DEVELOP ON A SPECTRUM.
288. 18:48BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE FALL EITHER ON THE MALE SIDE OR ON THE
289. 18:55FEMALE SIDE.
290. 18:55AND, YES, IT'S TRUE THAT SCIENTISTS, THAT DOCTORS AND RESEARCHERS HAVE BEEN FINDING
291. 19:01MORE AND MORE FACTORS THAT GO INTO NOT ONLY DETERMINING GENETIC SEX, THEY'RE DETERMINING
292. 19:11THE EXPRESSION OF THOSE GENES, SO IT'S TRULY A FASCINATING COMPLEX FIELD OF STUDY, BUT THAT
293. 19:17DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BIOLOGICAL SEX.
294. 19:21WHEN IT COMES TO THE ISSUE OF PRONOUNS -- WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO --
295. 19:25>> Steve: YES, BRIEFLY, IF YOU WOULD, BECAUSE KYLE HAS BEEN THE MOST PATIENT PERSON IN THE WORLD
296. 19:30WAITING FOR HIS CHANCE TO GET IN.
297. 19:31SO, YES, YOU FINISH YOUR STATEMENT, AND THEN I'M GOING TO GET TO KYLE.
298. 19:36>> Theryn Meyer: OKAY.
299. 19:37MY APOLOGIES.
300. 19:38FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE A LOT OF SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE REFERRED TO BY THEIR
301. 19:43PRONOUNS.
302. 19:44OBVIOUSLY AS A TRANS WOMAN, I KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE MISGENDERED AND WHATNOT.
303. 19:51MOST PEOPLE ARE REASONABLE IN THE SENSE THAT THEY WOULD BE REASONABLE ENOUGH TO ACCOMMODATE
304. 19:58TRANS PEOPLE AND THEIR PREFERRED PRONOUNS, AND I'M SURE -- I MEAN, I WOULD HOPE THAT IF I
305. 20:04WERE A STUDENT OF DR. PETERSON THAT HE WOULD REFER TO ME AS "SHE" AND WOULDN'T HAVE A
306. 20:10PROBLEM WITH THAT.
307. 20:11BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU KNOW, A PERSONAL PRONOUN PREFERENCE IS STILL A PREFERENCE
308. 20:15FOR WHAT LANGUAGE OTHER PEOPLE USE, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, I DON'T HAVE ULTIMATE CONTROL
309. 20:22OVER WHAT DR. PETERSON -- THE LANGUAGE HE WOULD CHOOSE TO USE OR ANYBODY ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.
310. 20:27THAT'S UP TO THEM.
311. 20:27>> Steve: LET ME FIND OUT THEN.
312. 20:30IF SHE WERE A STUDENT OF YOURS, WHAT WOULD YOU CALL HER?
313. 20:33>> Jordan Peterson: SHE.
314. 20:34>> Steve: YOU WOULD.
315. 20:35OKAY.
316. 20:35WE'VE ESTABLISHED THAT.
317. 20:37THERYN, STAND BY FOR A SECOND NOW.
318. 20:39I DO WANT -- THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE, PROFESSOR KIRKUP.
319. 20:43I WANT TO BRING YOU IN NOW BECAUSE, AS I SUGGESTED EARLIER, IN NEW YORK CITY THEY HAVE
320. 20:49IDENTIFIED 31 GENDER IDENTITIES AND APPARENTLY THE LAW DOWN THERE SUGGESTS THAT IF
321. 20:53BUSINESSES DON'T ACCOMMODATE, AN INDIVIDUAL'S CHOSEN GENDER IDENTITY, THERE IS THE RISK OF A
322. 20:59SIX-FIGURE FINE UNDER THE RULES OF THE CITY'S COMMISSIONER OF HUMAN RIGHTS.
323. 21:03WE HAVE, IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO, OUR OWN ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, AND I WONDER
324. 21:09HOW SIMILAR OUR LEGISLATION IS HERE ON THIS ISSUE COMPARED TO WHAT THEY HAVE IN NEW YORK CITY.
325. 21:15>> Kyle Kirkup: SO WHERE I WOULD START THE DISCUSSION IS TO ACTUALLY POINT THAT, YOU KNOW,
326. 21:19EVEN THOUGH WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ADDING GENDER IDENTITY AND GENDER EXPRESSION TO THE
327. 21:23CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACT AND PROVISIONS OF THE CRIMINAL CODE, THIS IS A LONGSTANDING PRACTICE
328. 21:29IN CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS JURISPRUDENCE.
329. 21:32YOU CAN GO BACK INTO THE LATE 1990s.
330. 21:34AND THE CASES WE'RE SEEING IN THE TRIBUNALS ARE NOT THE KIND OF EXTREME EXAMPLES OF A NUMBER
331. 21:39OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF GENDER PRONOUNCE.
332. 21:41WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS REALLY MORE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS QUESTIONS.
333. 21:45SO QUESTIONS LIKE, ARE YOU REQUIRED TO UNDERGO SURGERY IN ORDER TO HAVE AN IDENTITY
334. 21:52DOCUMENT THAT PROPERLY CAPTURES WHO YOU ARE AS A PERSON?
335. 21:56DISCRIMINATION IN POLICING CONTEXTS.
336. 21:58DISCRIMINATION IN THE WORKPLACE.
337. 21:59AND SO I THINK THE PRONOUN ISSUE IS REALLY A RED HERRING.
338. 22:02WHEN YOU LOOK THROUGH THE JURISPRUDENCE DATING BACK TO THE 1990s, WE'RE SEEING MUCH MORE
339. 22:08FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS, REALLY BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS QUESTIONS THAT ARE COMING BEFORE THE
340. 22:13TRIBUNALS, AND HAVING REVIEWED THE CASE LAW, I'M NOT SEEING THE KIND OF NEW YORK SCENARIO THAT
341. 22:19YOU'RE PROPOSING AT ALL.
342. 22:20>> Steve: WELL, LET ME READ SOME OF THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS CODE TO YOU, AND THEN I'LL GET
343. 22:25YOUR FEEDBACK ON THAT.
344. 22:27DISCRIMINATION, THE HUMAN RIGHTS CODE SAYS, HAPPENS ...
345. 23:00>> Steve: AGAIN, KYLE, I'LL GET YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT, INASMUCH AS, IF A TRANS PERSON
346. 23:07OR SOMEBODY WHOSE GENDER IDENTITY WAS MORE, SHALL WE SAY, COMPLICATED THAN THE MALE-FEMALE
347. 23:12THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SO FAR, AND THE PRONOUN USED TO DESCRIBE THAT PERSON WERE NOT
348. 23:18TRADITIONAL, WOULD THE PERSON HAVE A CASE BEFORE THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION?
349. 23:23>> Kyle Kirkup: SO WE HAVEN'T SEEN CASES ON THAT AT THIS POINT, BUT I WOULD SAY
350. 23:27ABSOLUTELY, AS A GENERAL RULE THAT YOU SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT
351. 23:32SETTINGS, ABSOLUTELY RESPECTING A TRANS PERSON'S PRONOUN CHOICE IS REALLY FUNDAMENTAL, AND I CAN
352. 23:37ALSO SAY THAT IN LOTS OF CIRCUMSTANCES, A PRONOUN MAY NOT EVEN BE REQUIRED.
353. 23:42THERE ARE LOTS OF CREATIVE WAYS TO AVOID USING GENDER PRONOUNS AT ALL.
354. 23:48SO I THINK THAT -- BUT WHEN YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE CASES THAT ARE COMING BEFORE TRIBUNALS,
355. 23:53WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT TO BE REALLY THE PRIMARY ISSUE.
356. 23:57IT'S MUCH MORE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS QUESTIONS, WHICH IS WHAT THE FEDERAL LEGISLATION HERE,
357. 24:02BILL C-16, TRIES TO ACCOMPLISH.
358. 24:03>> Steve: ALL RIGHT.
359. 24:04I THINK WE'VE SET THE TABLE NOW.
360. 24:05YOU WANT TO GET IN ON THIS NOW, I CAN TELL.
361. 24:08YOU'VE HEARD WHAT THE PROFESSOR HAS HAD TO SAY.
362. 24:10WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE?
363. 24:12>> Jordan Peterson: WELL, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE CLAIM THAT THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS
364. 24:16BIOLOGICAL SEX MEANS, AND I CERTAINLY THINK IT'S -- LET'S CALL IT AN ERROR TO SUGGEST THAT
365. 24:21THERE'S SOME SORT OF SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS ABOUT THAT.
366. 24:24I MEAN, THERE'S BIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MALES AND FEMALES IN ANIMALS AND HUMAN
367. 24:31BEINGS AT EVERY LEVEL OF ANALYSIS, FROM -- >> Steve: I'M JUMPING IN HERE.
368. 24:34WHAT ABOUT THE NOTION HE PUT FORWARD AT THE END THERE, THAT IF YOU DO NOT REFER TO PEOPLE
369. 24:37WITH THE PRONOUN THAT THEY PREFER TO BE REFERRED TO, THAT IS A FORM, ACCORDING TO THE
370. 24:42HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, OF DISCRIMINATION?
371. 24:45>> Jordan Peterson: IT'S NOT JUST A FORM OF DISCRIMINATION, IT'S A FORM OF HATE SPEECH.
372. 24:49THAT'S WHY I MADE THE VIDEO.
373. 24:50I SAID THAT WE WERE IN DANGER OF PLACING THE REFUSAL TO USE CERTAIN KINDS OF LANGUAGE INTO
374. 24:55THE SAME CATEGORY AS HOLOCAUST DENIAL AND SUGGESTED THAT MAYBE THAT WASN'T SUCH A GOOD IDEA,
375. 25:01ESPECIALLY SINCE THERE'S PLENTY OF DEBATE TO BE HAD ABOUT GENDER ISSUES IN OUR SOCIETY, WHICH I
376. 25:05ALSO THINK ARE ALSO IN DANGER OF BECOMING ILLEGAL AND QUITE RAPIDLY.
377. 25:10SO IT ISN'T CLEAR TO ME HOW LONG WE'LL BE ABLE TO HAVE THE TALK WE'RE HAVING RIGHT NOW.
378. 25:17>> CAN I JUMP IN ON THERE -- I THINK IT'S A COMMON MISCONCEPTION ABOUT BILL C-16,
379. 25:23THAT IT'S SOMEHOW GOING TO MAKE PRONOUN USE INTO HATE SPEECH.
380. 25:26IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE PROVISIONS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT VERY MINOR AMENDMENTS TO THE
381. 25:32CRIMINAL CODE -- >> Jordan Peterson: THEY'RE NOT MINOR.
382. 25:33THEY PUT IT INTO THE HATE SPEECH CATEGORY.
383. 25:36THEY'RE NOT MINOR AT ALL.
384. 25:37THAT'S A MISSTATEMENT.
385. 25:39DON'T TELL ME THEY'RE MINOR.
386. 25:42THAT'S NOT RIGHT.
387. 25:44>> Kyle Kirkup: SO SECTION -- PARDON ME.
388. 25:47SO SECTION 318 SETS OUT A SERIES OF IDENTIFIABLE GROUPS, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CLEAREST
389. 25:52OF CASES.
390. 25:52THE CASES OF ADVOCATING GENOCIDE.
391. 25:56WE HAVE A SERIES OF GROUPS THAT ARE ALREADY IDENTIFIED IN THE CODE, AND ALL THIS DOES IS ADD
392. 26:01GENDER IDENTITY AND GENDER EXPRESSION TO THE CATEGORIES THAT ARE ALREADY IDENTIFIED.
393. 26:04AND SO I THINK WE REALLY HAVE TO ADD SOME REASONABLENESS TO THIS DISCUSSION.
394. 26:10ACTUALLY CLEARLY ARTICULATE WHAT THE PROVISION DOES.
395. 26:12>> Steve: LET ME BE A LITTLE CLEARER ABOUT WHAT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS -- WHAT YOU MIGHT BE
396. 26:17ASKING FOR IF YOU WANT TO DO THIS.
397. 26:19FOR EXAMPLE, AND, SHELDON, BOTTOM OF PAGE 3 HERE.
398. 26:22LET'S PUT THIS GRAPHIC UP.
399. 26:43>> Steve: JORDAN, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GO TO JAIL IF YOU KEEP THIS UP.
400. 26:46DO YOU FIND THAT REASSURING?
401. 26:48>> Jordan Peterson: WHAT IF I DON'T PAY THE FINE?
402. 26:49>> Steve: THEN WHAT?
403. 26:50>> Jordan Peterson: THEN WHAT?
404. 26:51AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE LEGALITIES FOR A MINUTE.
405. 26:53AS YOU KNOW, THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO SENT ME TWO WARNING LETTERS, RIGHT?
406. 26:58AND THE SECOND ONE BASICALLY ASKED ME TO STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS.
407. 27:00>> Steve: WHO SENT THE LETTERS?
408. 27:02>> Jordan Peterson: THE FIRST -- IT'S THE ADMINISTRATION, FUNDAMENTALLY,
409. 27:05THE HIGHER-UP PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION.
410. 27:07THE LAST ONE WAS THE DEAN OF THE FACULTY OF ARTS AND SCIENCE.
411. 27:11BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S COMING FROM THE TOP END OF THE UNIVERSITY.
412. 27:13>> Steve: AND THE LETTER SAID ESSENTIALLY YOU MUST CALL PEOPLE BY THE PRONOUNS THEY WANT?
413. 27:18>> Jordan Peterson: THE LETTERS BASICALLY SAID THAT -- AND THIS IS PARAPHRASING,
414. 27:22OBVIOUSLY -- THAT I'M REQUIRED TO ABIDE BY THE UNIVERSITY POLICIES AND THE ONTARIO HUMAN
415. 27:27RIGHTS CODE.
416. 27:28THERE'S A STRONG IMPLICATION IN THE LETTER, BY HAVING THIS DISCUSSION, THAT I WASN'T DOING
417. 27:32SO.
418. 27:32AND THEY'RE ASKING ME TO STOP.
419. 27:34AND I CAN TELL YOU ALSO WHY THEY'RE TELLING ME TO STOP APART FROM THAT.
420. 27:38THE CODES AS WRITTEN MAKE THE UNIVERSITY JUST AS LIABLE FOR MY SPEECH AS I AM.
421. 27:44SO NOT ONLY IS THERE A REASONABLE POSSIBILITY THAT WHAT I'M DOING IS UTTERING HATE
422. 27:48SPEECH NOW UNDER OUR LAW, BUT THE UNIVERSITY IS LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.
423. 27:52AND SO I THINK THEY CONSULTED WITH THEIR LAWYERS AND DECIDED THAT MAYBE THE CLAIM THAT I WAS
424. 27:56MAKING IN MY VIDEO WAS CORRECT, THAT -- AND SO I DON'T REGARD THAT AS TRIVIAL, AND I THINK THE
425. 28:03LAWYER WHO IS DISCUSSING THIS IS DOWNPLAYING THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT TREMENDOUSLY.
426. 28:10>> Nicholas Matte: CAN I SPEAK TO THE CLIMATE OF THIS BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WHICH DR. PETERSON
427. 28:15HAS BEEN ASKED TO STOP ABUSING STUDENTS ON CAMPUS.
428. 28:19>> Jordan Peterson: TO STOP WHAT?
429. 28:21>> Nicholas Matte: ABUSING STUDENTS AND OTHERS IN OUR COMMUNITY WHO DESERVE RESPECT
430. 28:25AND TO LEARN AND CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY IN A PLACE WHERE, IF THEY ARE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED,
431. 28:32IF THEY ARE -- >> Jordan Peterson: THE ASSAULT SO FAR CAME FROM THE
432. 28:34SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS WHO WERE AT THE FREE SPEECH RALLY AND ALMOST TWO MILLION PEOPLE HAVE
433. 28:38WATCHED IT SO FAR.
434. 28:39>> Nicholas Matte: THIS IS NOT ACCURATE.
435. 28:40>> Jordan Peterson: WELL, YOU CAN LOOK AT THE VIDEOS YOURSELF.
436. 28:43>> Nicholas Matte: BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MAKING COMPLAINTS ABOUT YOUR BEHAVIOUR.
437. 28:46>> Jordan Peterson: YES, I UNDERSTAND THAT.
438. 28:48>> Steve: CAN I JUST BE CLEAR ON SOMETHING HERE -- >> Nicholas Matte: THE
439. 28:52OPPORTUNITY FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE HAPPENING, WHAT MANY PEOPLE WON'T UNDERSTAND.
440. 28:54>> Steve: NICK, CAN I BE CLEAR OF SOMETHING?
441. 28:57YOU'VE ACCUSED HIM OF ABUSING STUDENTS BY NOT USING PRONOUNS.
442. 29:01>> Nicholas Matte: THAT'S HOW I SEE IT.
443. 29:02>> Steve: THAT IS TANTAMOUNT TO ABUSE, IN YOUR VIEW?
444. 29:05>> Nicholas Matte: ABSOLUTELY.
445. 29:07MANY -- >> Jordan Peterson: IS IT TANTAMOUNT TO VIOLENCE?
446. 29:11>> Nicholas Matte: YES.
447. 29:11>> Jordan Peterson: HOW ABOUT HATE SPEECH?
448. 29:13>> Nicholas Matte: OF COURSE IT'S HATE SPEECH.
449. 29:14YOU WON'T REFER TO THEM IN A WAY THAT RECOGNIZES THEIR HUMANITY AND DIGNITY.
450. 29:18>> Steve: MARY, LET ME GET YOU IN ON THIS AT THIS POINT.
451. 29:22>> Mary Rogan: SURE.
452. 29:22>> Steve: DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT YOU WANT TO SAY OR CAN I PUT A QUESTION TO YOU?
453. 29:27>> Mary Rogan: BOTH.
454. 29:28>> Steve: YOU'RE A WRITER.
455. 29:30I KNOW YOU CARE ABOUT FREE SPEECH BECAUSE YOU'RE A WRITER.
456. 29:32>> Mary Rogan: YES.
457. 29:33>> Steve: DOES JORDAN PETERSON HAVE A LITTLE PLACE IN YOUR HEART BECAUSE HE'S ARGUING FREE
458. 29:38SPEECH HERE?
459. 29:39>> Mary Rogan: THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT JORDAN AND HOW I FEEL ABOUT HIS VIDEO AND JORDAN
460. 29:42AND I ACTUALLY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK AT LENGTH BEFORE I WROTE THE WALRUS
461. 29:47ARTICLE, AND HE SAILS VERY CLOSE TO THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO AND I THINK WE ALL WANT TO
462. 29:53HAVE AN OPEN DISCOURSE, WE WANT CONVERSATIONS TO UNFOLD, WE WANT PEOPLE TO FEEL, IF THEY HAVE
463. 29:58SOMETHING TO SAY, IF THEY HAVE A QUESTION, THEY CAN ASK IT, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE CENSORED
464. 30:05BUT HE SAILS CLOSE AND RIGHT PAST IT AND THAT'S WHERE HE AND I PART WAYS.
465. 30:10WHAT I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND IS WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THE VIDEO, HE PILES A LOT OF THINGS INTO
466. 30:16THE BASKET OF USING THE PRONOUNS THAT PEOPLE WANT, AND IT SEEMS TO ME -- AND YOU CAN CORRECT ME
467. 30:22IF I'M WRONG -- BUT ONE OF HIS ANXIETIES, AND HE TALKS ABOUT BEING FEARFUL AND ANXIOUS IN HIS
468. 30:28VIDEO, THAT SOMEHOW THERE'S A CABAL OF TRANS ACTIVISTS THAT HAVE SO MUCH POWER THAT THEY'RE
469. 30:38GOING TO BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, USING THE PRONOUNS THAT PEOPLE WANT AND CAPITULATING TO THESE
470. 30:44DEMANDS SORT OF PULLS OUT THE CRITICAL GENGA PIECE OF THE WESTERN CANNON, BASICALLY JORDAN
471. 30:52IS ARGUING THIS IS GOING TO CREATE CHAOS AND ANARCHY AND IT'S ESSENTIALLY A MARXIST PLOT
472. 31:00THAT IS THERE TO SOW VIOLENCE AND THERE TO SOW CONFUSION AND TOPPLE ANY KIND OF HIERARCHY.
473. 31:07>> Steve: CAN I JUST JUMP IN THERE FOR A SECOND?
474. 31:10IS THAT AN ACCURATE CHARACTERIZATION?
475. 31:13>> Mary Rogan: I LISTENED CLOSELY TO THAT TAPE.
476. 31:15I THINK IT IS.
477. 31:15>> Steve: HAS SHE ACCURATELY CHARACTERIZED WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM?
478. 31:20>> Jordan Peterson: IT'S NOT A TRANSSEXUAL CABAL BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.
479. 31:25IS IT A CABAL OF RADICAL LEFT WINGERS?
480. 31:28YES, IT IS.
481. 31:29THEY'VE BEEN ACTIVE BEHIND AND IN FRONT OF THE SCENES INCREASINGLY OVER THE LAST 30
482. 31:33YEARS.
483. 31:33AND MY ESTIMATION IS THAT DEPARTMENTS LIKE WOMEN'S STUDIES HAVE TRAINED BETWEEN 300,000 AND
484. 31:393 MILLION RADICAL LEFT-WING ACTIVISTS AND THEY'RE -- >> Mary Rogan: AND THEY'RE ALL
485. 31:44UNDERPAID, SO DON'T WORRY.
486. 31:45>> Jordan Peterson: THEY COULD PICK HIGHER PAYING OCCUPATIONS IF THEY WANTED HIGHER PAYING
487. 31:51OCCUPATIONS.
488. 31:52>> Nicholas Matte: BECAUSE SEXISM DOES NOT EXIST.
489. 31:54ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
490. 31:55>> Steve: LET'S NOT GET OFF-TOPIC HERE, FOLKS.
491. 31:59>> Nicholas Matte: THAT'S DEFINITELY ON POINT -- >> Mary Rogan: I THINK JORDAN
492. 32:04HAS CONCEDED -- I THINK I HAVE GRASPED HIS CONCERN, AT THE VERY LEAST I'VE GRASPED HIS CONCERN
493. 32:11AND THERE IS A KIND OF CHIPPING AWAY AT ORDER AS WE'VE COME TO KNOW IT.
494. 32:15THE OTHER THING JORDAN AND I HAVE IN COMMON IS A REAL INTEREST IN LANGUAGE AND THE
495. 32:20IDEA OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN LANGUAGE CHANGES, WHEN IT EVOLVES, AND, YOU KNOW, I WAS
496. 32:26THINKING, BEFORE I CAME HERE, I WAS THINKING ABOUT -- I GREW UP IN THE BRONX AND I WAS BORN IN
497. 32:33'61, SO I REMEMBER VERY WELL WHEN WE WENT FROM MRS. TO MS. AND MY FATHER WAS APPALLED
498. 32:39AND HE KEPT SAYING, MS. , AND HE THOUGHT THAT WAS FUNNY, BECAUSE IF YOU COULDN'T ACTUALLY
499. 32:45IDENTIFY SOMEBODY AS EITHER, PARTICULARLY A FEMALE, AS EITHER MARRIED OR SINGLE, THEN CHAOS,
500. 32:53RIGHT?
501. 32:53>> Steve:
502. 32:59IT IS APPARENTLY VERY CONFUSING AND I'M REMINDED OF THAT, WHEN THE SUGGESTION IS MADE THAT
503. 33:05SOMEHOW, IF WE HAVE WORDS THAT DON'T FIT INTO SOMETHING THAT WE'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH AND
504. 33:10THAT WE'VE USED TO DATE, THAT CHAOS WILL ENSUE, THAT EVERYONE WILL BE CONFUSED.
505. 33:16I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.
506. 33:17THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THAT HISTORICALLY.
507. 33:18>> Steve: I HEAR YOU.
508. 33:19BUT THERE WAS NO LAW OBLIGING PEOPLE TO USE -- >> Mary Rogan: BUT THERE WERE
509. 33:23LAWS TO OBLIGE PEOPLE TO CHANGE THE WAY THAT WE REFERRED TO BLACK PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE.
510. 33:31YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THERE WERE ANY NUMBER OF WORDS THAT WE CAN NOW ONLY SAY AS
511. 33:38LETTERS -- CAN I SAY THEM ON TVO?
512. 33:40PEOPLE WERE CALLED DARKIES, NIGGERS, COONS, IN POLITE COMPANY.
513. 33:46THAT EVOLVED.
514. 33:48THOSE THINGS CHANGED.
515. 33:48WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER, PEOPLE WERE STILL USING THOSE WORDS.
516. 33:51>> Steve: THIS IS A NATURAL EVOLUTION, IN YOUR VIEW?
517. 33:53>> Mary Rogan: THIS IS A NATURAL EVOLUTION AND CHAOS WILL NOT ENSUE.
518. 33:56>> Jordan Peterson: IF IT'S A NATURAL EVOLUTION, WE DON'T NEED HATE SPEECH LAWS TO ENFORCE IT.
519. 34:01>> Mary Rogan: OBVIOUSLY WE DO.
520. 34:02WE CAN DRIVE SOCIAL CHANGE AND IT DOESN'T ALL HAVE TO LEAD TO CHAOS, IS MY POINT.
521. 34:07WE HAVE SEEN THE FLIP SIDE OF JORDAN'S ARGUMENT, I THINK, WE DO HAVE AN HISTORICAL RECORD OF
522. 34:14THAT, SO WHEN IT WAS LEFT TO OTHERS TO NAME PEOPLE, WE LOST INDIGENOUS NAMES.
523. 34:18I COME FROM -- MY MOTHER IS FROM IRELAND.
524. 34:20SHE WAS FROM A GENERATION WHO FINALLY GOT TO LEARN HER OWN LANGUAGE AGAIN.
525. 34:24SHE COULDN'T SPEAK GAELIC TO HER PARENTS BECAUSE THEY HADN'T BEEN ALLOWED TO SPEAK IT.
526. 34:28WE'VE SEEN THE EFFECT WHEN PEOPLE CAN'T USE THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, WHEN THEY CAN'T USE
527. 34:32THEIR OWN NAMES.
528. 34:33>> Steve: LET ME GET JORDAN TO RESPOND TO THAT.
529. 34:37A NATURAL EVOLUTION.
530. 34:38>> Jordan Peterson: LOOK, WORDS ARE TOOLS.
531. 34:39MAYBE THAT WAS ONE OF THE GREAT PHILOSOPHICAL DISCOVERIES OF THE 20TH CENTURY.
532. 34:44AND THAT MEANS -- AND PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR NEW TOOLS TO OPERATE IN THE WORLD.
533. 34:48AND IF YOU INVENT A GOOD TOOL, LIKE A NEW WORD, THEN PEOPLE WILL PICK IT UP JUST AS FAST AS
534. 34:54THEY POSSIBLY CAN.
535. 34:54YOU REALLY SEE THAT IN ENGLISH.
536. 34:56BUT THE WORDS THAT ARE BEING REQUIRED NOW ARE NOT GOOD TOOLS AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE AREN'T
537. 35:01USING THEM.
538. 35:01AND SO INSTEAD WHAT WE HAVE IS THE USE OF FORCE DESPITE THE FACT THAT THAT'S BEING DENIED,
539. 35:06ALTHOUGH WE'VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED THAT AT LEAST IN THE OPINION OF ONE OF THE PEOPLE ON
540. 35:10THIS PANEL, I'M ALREADY GUILTY OF A HATE CRIME, WHICH IS WHAT I SAID I WAS GUILTY OF WHEN I MADE
541. 35:15THAT VIDEO.
542. 35:15STEVE, THE ISSUE WITH THE LAW IS QUITE STRAIGHTFORWARD.
543. 35:19THE GOVERNMENT IS RESPONDING -- IS REQUIRING US TO USE CERTAIN LANGUAGE.
544. 35:23THAT'S NOT THE SAME AS NOT USING CERTAIN LANGUAGE.
545. 35:25AND IT'S A LINE -- AND THIS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE.
546. 35:28THIS IS MAYBE THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE.
547. 35:29THAT'S A LINE WE SHOULD NOT CROSS.
548. 35:31WE SHOULD NOT ALLOW THE GOVERNMENT TO DECIDE WHICH WORDS WE'RE ALLOWED TO USE.
549. 35:36IT'S A MISTAKE.
550. 35:37AND IT'S A MISTAKE THAT STRIKES RIGHT AT THE HEART OF FREE SPEECH, AND THE THING ABOUT FREE
551. 35:41SPEECH IS THAT IT'S NOT THE RIGHT TO CRITICIZE YOUR LEADERS, WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE USUALLY
552. 35:48CHARACTERIZE IT AS.
553. 35:49FREE SPEECH IS FREEDOM TO ENGAGE IN THE PROS SELVES THAT WE USE TO -- PROCESSES WE USE TO
554. 35:54FORMULATE THE PROBLEMS IN OUR SOCIETY, TO GENERATE SOLUTIONS TO THEM AND REACH A CONSENSUS.
555. 35:59IT'S ACTUALLY A MECHANISM.
556. 36:01IT'S NOT JUST ANOTHER VALUE.
557. 36:03YOU SHOULD PUT CONSTRAINTS ON FREE SPEECH WITH THE MOST EXTREME CAUTION BECAUSE YOU
558. 36:07INTERFERE WITH PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO THINK AND COMMUNICATE.
559. 36:09>> Steve: LET ME GET THERYN TO WEIGH IN.
560. 36:11YOU'VE BEEN HEARING THE DEBATE IN THE STUDIO.
561. 36:13WHY DON'T YOU WEIGH IN AND PICK IT UP?
562. 36:15>> Theryn Meyer: I GUESS I'M IN THE SAME BOAT AS DR. PETERSON WHEN IT COMES TO BEING GUILTY OF
563. 36:21A HATE CRIME OR, SORRY, HATE SPEECH INFRINGEMENT BECAUSE, I MEAN, I DRAW THE LAW SOMEWHERE.
564. 36:26FOR EXAMPLE, I REFUSE TO USE PRONOUNS LIKE THESE AND THEIR.
565. 36:33I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM USING THEY AND THEIR PRONOUNCE AND THAT MAY BE BECAUSE OF THE
566. 36:39CIRCLES I'M IN, I KNOW PEOPLE WHO USE GENDER NEUTRAL PRONOUNCE, I'VE GOTTEN USED TO
567. 36:44IT.
568. 36:44BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO COME INTO CONTACT WITH THE INCREDIBLY
569. 36:49SMALL FRACTION OF THE POPULATION OF GENDER NON-BINARY PEOPLE.
570. 36:52AND THAT'S WHY THIS -- IT'S NEVER REALLY GOING TO PICK UP, IN MY OPINION, WHEN IT COMES TO
571. 36:59MRS. AND MS. , AT LEAST HALF OF THE POPULATION IS FEMALE, SO THERE WAS SOME INTERACTION WITH
572. 37:08THE TERM MRS. VERSUS MS. .
573. 37:12AND THERE WERE SOME INTERACTIONS SO PEOPLE COULD PICK IT UP.
574. 37:15THERE AREN'T ENOUGH GENDER NON-BINARY, I USE THAT IN QUOTATION MARKS BECAUSE I HATE
575. 37:20THAT TERM BECAUSE IT'S A POLITICAL TERM, NOT A GENDER IDENTITY OR A TERM OF
576. 37:26IDENTIFICATION, IT'S JUST A POLITICAL TERM THAT, REGARDLESS, I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO PICK
577. 37:32UP.
578. 37:32THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THESE PEOPLE TO INTERACT WITH.
579. 37:34>> Steve: THE TWITTERSPHERE HAS BEEN BUZZING WITH THIS CONVERSATION.
580. 37:43LET'S PULL UP ONE TWEET.
581. 37:44THIS WAS TWEETED TO A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, AS YOU CAN SEE IN THE MIDDLE, JORDAN PETERSON WHO IS
582. 37:51ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT ...
583. 37:55>> Steve: THERE ARE PEOPLE, LET'S GO TO PROFESSOR KYLE IN OTTAWA.
584. 37:59THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO HOPE THAT C-16 LIVES UP TO JORDAN'S WORST FEARS.
585. 38:03DO YOU AGREE THAT C-16 OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM EXPRESSING NEGATIVE OPINIONS
586. 38:11ABOUT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE?
587. 38:14>> Kyle Kirkup: FIRST I WANT TO CLARIFY THAT BILL C-16 ONLY APPLIES TO FEDERALLY REGULATED
588. 38:18ENTITIES.
589. 38:19FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO IS UNDER PROVINCIAL JURISDICTION, SO IS THEREFORE
590. 38:24SUBJECT TO THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS CODE.
591. 38:26I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE.
592. 38:28I ALSO WANT TO NOTE, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT HATE CRIMES.
593. 38:32IT SEEMS TO BE LIKE KIND OF AN AMERICAN IMPORT INTO OUR DISCUSSION.
594. 38:37THE ONLY TWO CHANGES THAT THIS BILL C-16 MAKE ARE TO MAKE MINOR AMENDMENTS TO SECTION 318 AND
595. 38:44718 OF THE CRIMINAL CODE.
596. 38:45THE FIRST IS ADVOCATING GENOCIDE.
597. 38:47AS I'VE TALKED ABOUT, A VERY, VERY EXTREME, HIGH STANDARD.
598. 38:50AND SECOND OFF, AT SENTENCING, AFTER AN OFFENCE HAS BEEN COMMITTED AND A PERSON HAS BEEN
599. 38:54FOUND GUILTY, WHAT 718 DOES IS IT TELLS JUDGES THAT THEY OUGHT TO TREAT HATE MOTIVATION AS AN
600. 39:03AGGRAVATING FACTOR AT SENTENCING, TO TREAT THAT AS A MORE SEVERE FORM.
601. 39:07CURRENTLY WE HAVE A SERIES OF IDENTITIES THAT ARE SET OUT IN 718, THINGS LIKE SEXUAL
602. 39:13ORIENTATION, RACE.
603. 39:14WE DON'T HAVE CURRENTLY GENDER IDENTITY AND GENDER EXPRESSION THERE.
604. 39:19I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR THAT WE OUGHT NOT TO BE IMPORTING AMERICAN CONCEPTS INTO
605. 39:26THE DISCUSSION HERE.
606. 39:27>> Steve: UNDERSTOOD.
607. 39:28>> Kyle Kirkup: SO TO THE EXTENT THAT BILL C-16 MAKES CHANGES, ONLY TO, IN THE
608. 39:33CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACT CONTEXT, TWO FEDERALLY REGULATED ENTITIES, WHICH IS NOT THE
609. 39:39UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
610. 39:39>> Steve: NICHOLAS, LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH YOU.
611. 39:41WHY, IN YOUR VIEW, DO YOU THINK THE TRANS COMMUNITY NEEDS THIS SORT OF LEGISLATIVE PROTECTION?
612. 39:46>> Nicholas Matte: THANK YOU.
613. 39:46THAT'S BASICALLY THE POINT THAT HASN'T BEEN RAISED HERE WHICH IS THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY
614. 39:51SUFFERING HUGE LACK OF ACCESS TO RESOURCES THAT WILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO SURVIVE.
615. 39:55SO PEOPLE ARE BEING PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED.
616. 39:57PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE COUNSELLORS THAT THEY CAN GO TO WHO ARE NOT GOING TO, AS DR. PETERSON HAS
617. 40:04DONE ON YouTube, RECOMMEND THAT THEY ACTUALLY BECOME MORE ANXIOUS AND MORE UPSET ABOUT
618. 40:10SITUATIONS.
619. 40:11PEOPLE ARE BEING ASSAULTED.
620. 40:12I BROUGHT ALL SORTS OF REALLY DEPRESSING STATS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE LEANING TOWARDS THINKING
621. 40:20THAT THIS IS NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL, THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO LOOK AT THOSE STATS.
622. 40:25>> Steve: GIVE US ONE STAT.
623. 40:27>> Nicholas Matte: YEAH.
624. 40:29SO 58% OF STUDENTS COULD NOT GET ACADEMIC TRANSCRIPTS WITH THEIR CORRECT NAME OR PRONOUN.
625. 40:34THAT CAUSES A HUGE CHAIN OF EVENTS FOR STUDENTS OR ANYBODY WHO HAS HAD ANY KIND OF ACADEMIC
626. 40:39TRAINING.
627. 40:40AS EVERYONE RECOGNIZES, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE REFERENCES, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE
628. 40:44RéSUMéS, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET JOBS.
629. 40:47>> Steve: I WANT TO BE SURE THAT I'M CLEAR -- I'M CLEARLY UNDERSTANDING YOUR POINT HERE,
630. 40:52WHICH IS, AND THEREFORE THEY FEEL DISRESPECTED AND THEREFORE THIS AFFECTS THEIR LIFE IN A
631. 40:57VERY REAL WAY?
632. 40:57IS THAT RIGHT?
633. 40:58>> Nicholas Matte: THE FEELING OF DISRESPECT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS THE WAYS THAT
634. 41:02PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY ARE ABLE TO CIRCUMVENT THE POSSIBILITIES FOR LIVING.
635. 41:06SO IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH NOT BEING ABLE TO FIND HOUSING AND THEREFORE BEING HOMELESS, HAVE
636. 41:11MORE TO DO WITH NOT BEING ABLE TO GET JOBS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.
637. 41:15SO WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY -- WE SHOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT FREE SPEECH.
638. 41:18WHAT WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT ARE THE SOCIAL ISSUES FACING PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING
639. 41:23DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE ON CAMPUS, WHICH IS THAT SOME PROFESSORS REFUSE
640. 41:30TO OFFER BASIC DIGNITY TO STUDENTS AND COLLEAGUES, AND THAT LEADS TO PEOPLE MISSING
641. 41:34CLASSES, IT LEADS TO PEOPLE DROPPING OUT, IT LEADS TO A LACK OF POSITIVE OPPORTUNITY FOR
642. 41:40SOCIETY TO ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROM THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF MANY, MANY PEOPLE.
643. 41:44AND I ALSO DON'T TEACH THAT THERE'S A HUGE DIVIDE BETWEEN TRANS AND NON-TRANS PEOPLE,
644. 41:52BECAUSE I WOULD SAY THAT 100 PERCENT OF PEOPLE WILL BENEFIT FROM MORE OPEN
645. 43:12AND THAT'S WHY THIS HAS TURNED INTO THE CONFLAGRATION IT HAS?
646. 43:15>> Jordan Peterson: IT'S PARTLY THAT BECAUSE THE ISSUES WE'RE DISCUSSING HAVE TO CENTRE
647. 43:19ON ACTUAL ISSUES AND THEY SEEM TO BE CENTERING ON THE ISSUE SURROUNDING TRANSGENDER
648. 43:23LANGUAGE.
649. 43:24BUT I DON'T THINK WE'RE TALKING PAST EACH OTHER AT ALL IN A FUNDAMENTAL SENSE.
650. 43:27I MEAN, I THINK THAT THE REAL PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THERE'S A CONCERTED ATTEMPT MADE -- BEING
651. 43:33MADE BY MANY PEOPLE TO SUBVERT ALL VALUES TO THE VALUE OF EQUALITY OF OUTCOME.
652. 43:40WE NEED MORE THAN ONE VALUE, FIRST OF ALL, IF WE'RE GOING TO SURVIVE AS A SOCIETY, BECAUSE
653. 43:45YOU CAN'T SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM WITH THE SAME APPROACH.
654. 43:48BUT THERE ARE MORE INSIDIOUS THINGS, IN MY ESTIMATION, GOING ON UNDERNEATH.
655. 43:54EVEN THE MISSSIVE THAT YOU JUST READ SAID THAT -- WELL, EVEN PROVIDING ME WITH A PLATFORM,
656. 43:59LET'S CALL IT, TO EXPRESS MY VIEWS, IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED.
657. 44:02IT'S LIKE, YES, THAT'S WHY I MADE THE VIDEO, IS BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING THAT THE
658. 44:07EXPRESSION OF THESE SORTS OF VIEWS SHOULD NO LONGER BE PERMITTED AND IT'S THIS VIEW FOR
659. 44:13NOW, BUT THIS IS A MINOR ISSUE IN SOME WAYS COMPARED TO THE LARGER ISSUE THAT'S AT STAKE,
660. 44:19WHICH IS THERE ARE RIGHTS TO HAVE THIS SORT OF DISCUSSION -- I MEAN, ONE THING THAT HAPPENED
661. 44:23JUST WHEN WE STARTED THIS, THERE WAS AN INITIAL CLAIM THAT THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS
662. 44:28BIOLOGICAL SEX.
663. 44:29I BELIEVE QUITE FIRMLY THAT IF WE CONTINUE ON OUR PRESENT PATH AT THE UNIVERSITIES FOR FIVE
664. 44:33MORE YEARS, THAT'S A DISCUSSION WE WILL NOT ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO HAVE ON CAMPUSES.
665. 44:36>> Steve: BECAUSE IT'LL BE ...
666. 44:39>> Jordan Peterson: BY FIAT.
667. 44:41THE LEGISLATION ALREADY IMPLICITLY PRESUMES THAT BIOLOGICAL SEX, GENDER IDENTITY
668. 44:46AND GENDER EXPRESSION, WHICH WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT YET, VARY RIPPED PENALTY.
669. 44:52THAT IS
670. 44:57>> Steve: SOME THINK WE'RE
671. 45:01I WONDER IF YOU COULD GIVE YOUR EXPLANATION AS TO WHY SOME PEOPLE ADAMANTLY REFUSE EVEN TO
672. 45:06HAVE THIS DISCUSSION, THAT THE NOTION OF HAVING THIS DISCUSSION IS SOMEHOW TRANSPHOBIC?
673. 45:15>> Theryn Meyer: I THINK IT HAS TO DO WITH -- THERE'S A LACKING WHEN IT COMES TO
674. 45:19ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO DEFEND YOUR POINTS THROUGH ARGUMENT.
675. 45:26SO IF YOU OFFER UP A DISCUSSION FOR ARGUMENT, THEY KNOW THEY WILL LOSE.
676. 45:32I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS AND INSANE TO SAY THAT HAVING THIS DISCUSSION IS BY
677. 45:38DEFAULT TRANSPHOBIC.
678. 45:40I THINK IT'S EQUALLY LUDICROUS TO CALL DR. PETERSON BY WHAT HE SAID TRANSPHOBIC.
679. 45:49I THINK USING THAT TERM SO WILLY-NILLY IT TAKES THE REMOTIONAL RESPONSE AND CONNOTES
680. 45:59IN MY OPINION AS HAVING AN OPEN DISCUSSIONS AND I THINK THAT'S INSIDIOUS AND MANIPULATIVE.
681. 46:05>> Steve: KYLE, ARE WE BEING TRANSPHOBIC BY HAVING THIS DEBATE?
682. 46:11>> Kyle Kirkup: I DO WORRY ABOUT SETTING UP A FALSE EQUIVALENCY IN THIS CONVERSATION
683. 46:18AND THAT TRANS LIVESES AREN'T UP FOR DEBATE.
684. 46:23I'VE BEEN TROUBLED BY THE MISINFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THE LAW IS ACTUALLY GOING TO DO.
685. 46:26I GRAPPLED WITH WHETHER OR NOT I WANTED TO PART PATE IN THIS DISCUSSION -- PARTICIPATE IN
686. 46:33THIS DISCUSSION, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO DIAL BACK THE HATEFUL RHETORIC AND DO A
687. 46:38CAREFUL DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT THE LAW IS DESIGNED TO ACHIEVE AND ULTIMATELY TO PROMOTE A MORE
688. 46:43EQUITABLE AND JUST SOCIETY.
689. 46:45WE'VE TALKED ABOUT FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, TO USE THE CANADIAN TERM.
690. 46:48WE SHOULD ALSO BE TALKING ABOUT OTHER VALUES LIKE EQUALITY AND ANTI-RACISM, I THINK.
691. 46:53>> Steve: JUST CURIOUS, MARY, I'M GOING TO GET TO YOU IN ONE SEC.
692. 46:57YOU'VE PARTICIPATED IN 90 PERCENT OF THE PROGRAM, WE'RE JUST ABOUT DONE.
693. 47:01WAS IT A GOOD IDEA FOR YOU TO COME ON?
694. 47:05>> Kyle Kirkup: I THINK IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRY TO WORK THROUGH SOME OF THE LEGAL
695. 47:08ISSUES, THE SOCIAL AND HUMAN RIGHTS AND EQUALITY ISSUES, AND SO I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE BUT I
696. 47:14RECOGNIZE THAT OTHER PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCES, THEY MIGHT FIND ULTIMATELY THAT PARTICIPATING IN
697. 47:19THIS PROGRAM WAS A MISTAKE.
698. 47:21>> Steve: MARY, IF YOU WOULD FOLLOW UP?
699. 47:24>> Mary Rogan: I CERTAINLY WANT TO SAY I FOUND, KYLE, THAT WHAT YOU BROUGHT TO IT IN TERMS
700. 47:27OF PUTTING THE BILL INTO PERSPECTIVE ACTUALLY REALLY HELPFUL AND PROBABLY HELPFUL TO
701. 47:32A LOT OF PEOPLE, SO I'M GLAD KYLE WAS HERE.
702. 47:36FOR ME ONE OF THE THINGS I FELT ANXIOUS ABOUT COMING IN AND I'M PUZZLING OVER, WHY THIS ISSUE?
703. 47:42WHY THIS ISSUE?
704. 47:44AND I DO THINK, AT THE RISK OF BRINGING IN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN, THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A
705. 47:50SIMILARITY BETWEEN SOME OF THE RHETORIC WE'RE HEARING DOWN SOUTH RIGHT NOW TO THE ELECTION
706. 47:55AND THIS.
707. 47:56IT FEELS LIKE IT'S GREATLY EXAGGERATED, SORT OF WHAT WILL FALL OUT FROM THIS, WHAT WILL --
708. 48:02AND WE'RE SORT OF -- IT FEELS LIKE A BIT OF A TEMPEST IN A TEAPOT.
709. 48:08I DON'T SEE THE CONNECTIONS JORDAN IS MAKING.
710. 48:10AND AS A PERSON WHO IDENTIFIES AS TRANSGENDER, IT'S VERY, VERY CONFUSING THAT THIS IS SOMEHOW
711. 48:15UP FOR DISCUSSION.
712. 48:16>> Steve: YOU SAW THE TAPE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PROGRAM OF THE -- I MEAN, HE TRIED TO GIVE
713. 48:20A SPEECH AT A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS AND WAS REALLY QUITE MERCILESSLY SHOUTED DOWN.
714. 48:26>> Mary Rogan: AND THAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE JORDAN AND I WOULD HAVE SOME
715. 48:30COMMON GROUND IN THAT THERE HAS BEEN A TREND IN SOME WAYS FOR PEOPLE TO ALLOW NO PLATFORMING
716. 48:39AND THIS PERSON'S VIEWS OR OBJECTIONABLE AND WE DON'T WANT THEM TO COME ON THE CAMPUS.
717. 48:43>> Steve: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?
718. 48:45>> Mary Rogan: I THINK IT'S BEST NOT DISCUSSED IN THE CONTEXT OF SOMEONE'S PERSONAL
719. 48:49IDENTITY.
720. 48:49THAT'S PART OF WHAT I'M BOTHERED BY BY THIS DISCUSSION.
721. 48:52>> Steve: IF YOU CAN'T HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT FREE SPEECH ON A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS, THEN I
722. 48:56GUESS YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE, BECAUSE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE WHERE THEY HAPPEN, ISN'T IT?
723. 49:00>> Mary Rogan: I AGREE WITH YOU.
724. 49:02I THINK THAT THAT IS A PROBLEM.
725. 49:03WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THOSE ISSUES CAME UP AROUND ISSUES OF SOMEONE WHO WAS PRO-ISRAEL WHO
726. 49:09WANTED TO COME ONTO A CAMPUS.
727. 49:11THOSE THINGS ARE POLITICAL.
728. 49:12MY IDENTITY, MY PERSONAL IDENTITY, MY GENDER IDENTITY IS VERY SEPARATE FROM MY POLITICAL
729. 49:17IDENTITY, SO IT'S VERY STRANGE TO HAVE THIS TO BE WHERE WE'RE GOING TO PLANT THE FLAG AND SAY
730. 49:22ENOUGH WITH THIS CRAZY POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
731. 49:24YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE YOUR PRONOUN.
732. 49:27IT SEEMS TRIVIAL TO ME.
733. 49:28>> Jordan Peterson: I THOUGHT IT WAS AN AXIOM OF FEMINISM, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE PERSONAL IS
734. 49:33POLITICAL.
735. 49:34THAT'S A FAMOUS PHRASE, THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL.
736. 49:37>> Nicholas Matte: THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL WHEN SOMEONE IS ATTACKING YOU ON A
737. 49:40BASIS THAT IS PERSONAL AND THAT YOU CAN'T CHANGE ABOUT YOURSELF.
738. 49:43THAT IS POLITICAL.
739. 49:45AND THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE SOMETIMES BECOME POLITICIZED IS WHEN THEY REALIZE THAT NO MATTER WHAT THEY
740. 49:50DO IN THE WORLD, THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO WILL CONTINUE TO ATTACK THEM ON RACIST GROUNDS,
741. 49:55ON GENDER AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE GROUNDS, AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE START TO FIGHT BACK AND THAT'S
742. 50:00WHY PEOPLE OBJECT.
743. 50:01>> Jordan Peterson: AND YOUR ATTEMPTS TO REGULATE MY LANGUAGE USE --
744. 50:05>> Nicholas Matte: I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR LANGUAGE USE.
745. 50:07I CARE ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING HARMED.
746. 50:09>> Jordan Peterson: I KNOW.
747. 50:10PEOPLE WHO MAKE YOUR KINDS OF ARGUMENTS ARE ALWAYS CONCERNED WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S SAFETY.
748. 50:15>> Nicholas Matte: I'M CONCERNED WITH MY OWN SAFETY.
749. 50:17JUST SO PEOPLE ARE AWARE, MY PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL LIFE AND LIVELIHOOD IS AT RISK FROM BEING
750. 50:24HERE AND THAT'S NOT TRUE FOR EVERYONE.
751. 50:27I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOURS.
752. 50:27>> Jordan Peterson: YOU KNOW PERFECTLY WELL -- >> Nicholas Matte: THAT'S ONE
753. 50:30OF THE MAJOR WAYS THAT YOU'RE ABLE TO DO THIS.
754. 50:32BUT I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO BE AWARE THAT TRANS AND GENDER DIVERSE COMMUNITIES AND
755. 50:38ESPECIALLY PEOPLE OF COLOUR ARE BEING TARGETED AND THREATENED PHYSICALLY.
756. 50:43SO FREE SPEECH IS A GREAT IDEA AND EQUALITY IS A GREAT IDEA, BUT WE ACTUALLY CAN'T HAVE THOSE
757. 50:48CONVERSATIONS WHEN PEOPLE ARE NOT EVEN ABLE TO BE PRESENT.
758. 50:50>> Steve: JORDAN, LET ME READ THIS TWEET TO YOU AND I'LL GET YOU TO RESPOND TO IT BECAUSE
759. 50:55IT'S INSTRUCTIVE OF THE CONVERSATION THAT JUST TOOK PLACE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU.
760. 51:03>> Steve: DO YOU AGREE THERE'S A DIFFERENCE?
761. 51:05>> Jordan Peterson: CERTAINLY THERE'S A DIFFERENCE.
762. 51:06>> Steve: ARE YOU PREPARED TO SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES THAT SOCIETY
763. 51:12MAY DEEM YOU NEED TO SUFFER BECAUSE OF YOUR VIEWS?
764. 51:13>> Jordan Peterson: YES, I'M PREPARED TO DO THAT.
765. 51:14>> Steve: WHAT DOES THAT ENTAIL?
766. 51:15>> ARE YOU OPEN TO LEARNING?
767. 51:17>> Jordan Peterson: THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION.
768. 51:18>> Steve: HANG ON, THAT WASN'T THE QUESTION, THAT'S RIGHT.
769. 51:20>> Jordan Peterson: SO WHAT AM I WILLING TO DO?
770. 51:22WELL, I THINK THAT THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNAL IS PROBABLY OBLIGATED BY THEIR OWN
771. 51:27TANGLED WEB TO BRING ME IN FRONT OF IT.
772. 51:30IF IT THEY FINE ME, I WON'T PAY IT.
773. 51:31IF THEY PUT ME IN JAIL, I'LL GO ON A HUNGER STRIKE.
774. 51:34I'M NOT DOING THIS.
775. 51:36THAT'S THAT.
776. 51:37I'M NOT USING WORDS THAT OTHER PEOPLE REQUIRE ME TO USE, ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE MADE UP BY
777. 51:43RADICAL LEFT-WING IDEOLOGUES.
778. 51:46NOW, IF OUR SOCIETY COMES TO SOME SORT OF CONSENSUS OVER THE NEXT WHILE ABOUT HOW WE'LL SOLVE
779. 51:52THE PRONOUN PROBLEM, LET'S CALL IT, AND THAT BECOMES PART OF POPULAR PARLANCE AND IT SEEMS TO
780. 51:57SOLVE THE PROBLEM PROPERLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN SINGULAR AND
781. 52:01PLURAL AND WITHOUT REQUIRING ME TO MEMORIZE AN IMPOSSIBLE LIST OF AN INDEFINITE NUMBER OF
782. 52:06PRONOUNS, THEN I WOULD BE WILLING TO RECONSIDER MY POSITION.
783. 52:09BUT I'M ALSO PARTLY OPPOSED TO THIS BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MADE MANDATORY AND HAS THE WHOLE
784. 52:15WEIGHT OF THE LAW BEHIND IT.
785. 52:16IT'S LIKE THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA.
786. 52:18I BELIEVE THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA.
787. 52:20AND I BELIEVE THAT THE REASON THIS HAS CAUSED SO MUCH NOISE, A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF NOISE,
788. 52:25TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF ATTENTION ON YouTube, IS BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE AT STAKE IN
789. 52:28THIS DISCUSSION DESPITE ITS SURFACE NATURE THAT STRIKE AT THE VERY HEART OF OUR
790. 52:34CIVILIZATION.
791. 52:34THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE.
792. 52:35>> Steve: DO YOU HAVE TENURE?
793. 52:36>> Jordan Peterson: I DO.
794. 52:37>> Steve: SO THEY CAN'T FIRE YOU FOR THIS?
795. 52:40>> Jordan Peterson: WELL, IT'S NOT ALL THAT EASY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT PEOPLE CAN AND CAN'T DO.
796. 52:45CERTAINLY THEY COULD FIRE ME IF I WAS, LET'S SAY -- IF THE HATE SPEECH ALLEGATION, SO TO SPEAK,
797. 52:53STUCK.
798. 52:53I MEAN, THE UNIVERSITY -- LOOK.
799. 52:55THE UNIVERSITY'S BEING QUITE REASONABLE ABOUT THIS, ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO MANY
800. 52:59UNIVERSITIES.
801. 53:00>> Steve: I'VE GOT TO SAY, WE HAVE A MINUTE LEFT AND I WANT TO GIVE IT TO JORDAN BECAUSE THE
802. 53:04UNIVERSITY HAS NOT SAID ENTIRELY, SHUT UP, WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS ANYMORE.
803. 53:07>> Jordan Peterson: BUT I WENT AND TALKED TO THE DEAN ON FRIDAY AND I SAT DOWN WITH MY FAMILY
804. 53:11AND I THOUGHT, OKAY, WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST WAY FOR THIS TO GO FOR EVERYONE, FOR ME AND FOR MY
805. 53:16STUDENTS AND FOR THE UNIVERSITY AND FOR SOCIETY?
806. 53:18I THOUGHT, OKAY, OBVIOUSLY THERE'S AN ISSUE HERE, SEVERAL OF THEM, BECAUSE OTHERWISE ALL
807. 53:22OF THIS NOISE WOULDN'T HAVE EMERGED.
808. 53:24SO WE SHOULD ACTUALLY HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT IT.
809. 53:26>> Steve: AND THAT'S HAPPENING.
810. 53:27>> Jordan Peterson: YES.
811. 53:28I WENT AND TALKED TO THE DEAN, DAVID CAMERON, WHO IS A VERY REASONABLE PERSON, AND I SAID,
812. 53:32LOOK, I THINK THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO SHOULD TAKE A LEADERSHIP POSITION ON THIS AND THERE'S
813. 53:37ISSUES TO BE DISCUSSED HERE.
814. 53:38>> Steve: WHO ARE YOU DEBATING?
815. 53:39>> Jordan Peterson: HA.
816. 53:40WELL, THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.
817. 53:43I HAVEN'T SEEN PEOPLE FLOODING OUT OF THE WOODWORK TO DEBATE ME.
818. 53:46>> Steve: DO WE HAVE A DATE, PLACE, AND TIME YET?
819. 53:48>> Jordan Peterson: WE DON'T.
820. 53:50IT WILL PROBABLY BE ON CAMPUS IN A MORNING IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.
821. 53:53>> Steve: LET ME KNOW, WE WILL TWEET IT OUT THERE.
822. 53:57THAT'S OUR TIME.
823. 53:58I DO WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR COMING IN.
824. 54:01WE HOPE IT WAS WORTH YOUR WHILE.
825. 54:04WE FOUND IT A VERY USEFUL EXERCISE.
826. 54:07>> Nicholas Matte: PEOPLE WHO WATCHED THIS PROGRAM MAY BE IN NEED --
827. 54:10>> Steve: DO YOU HAVE A WEBSITE?
828. 54:13>> Nicholas Matte: I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE GOING TO TRANSFORMING.CA.
829. 54:18IT WILL APPEAL TO ANYONE WITH AN INTEREST IN LEARNING.
830. 54:26TRANSFORMINGJUSTICE.CA.
831. 54:26>> Steve: THERYN MEYER IN VANCOUVER, PROFESSOR KIRKUP AT THE UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA.
832. 54:30WE THANK YOU FOR BEING OUTSIDE OUR STUDIO BUT PART OF OUR BROADCAST TONIGHT.
833. 54:35JORDAN PETERSON OF THE U OF T, NICHOLAS MATTE FROM THE U OF T, MARY ROGAN, HER PIECE IN THE
834. 54:38WALRUS MAGAZINE ON BETTER BOOK STORES AND CORNER STORES STANDS EVERYWHERE.
835. 54:44THANKS VERY MUCH, EVERYBODY.