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Does a "Historical Buddha" Matter? — Transcript

by Doug's Dharma · 3,711 words · 537 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00today we're going to talk about the
0:01historical Buddha why it's important to
0:03have a historical Buddha if it's
0:05important I'm gonna raise some problems
0:07and try to give at the end a solution
0:09coming right up
0:13[Music]
0:15I'm Doug Smith of the online Dharma
0:17Institute that's online Dharma org
0:19if you're new to this channel and
0:21interested in living a wiser and a
0:23kinder and a calmer life consider
0:25subscribing to the channel and if you're
0:27interested in courses about early
0:30Buddhism and related topics check out
0:32online Dharma org and we'll get around a
0:34little bit more to that at the end of
0:36this video so the historical Buddha or
0:38we might say the Buddha of history now
0:40there's a lot of questions around
0:42whether it's important and to what
0:43extent it's important that the woulda
0:45might really have existed now the
0:47Buddhism isn't like Christianity in the
0:50sense that whereas in Christianity it's
0:52really necessary that that Jesus existed
0:54and that the actual things happen to him
0:56as occurred in the Bible at least as
0:58discussed in the Bible in order for
1:01Christian faith to be to be reasonable
1:03on the other hand in Buddhism it's not
1:06quite the same as so long as the path is
1:09is effective it doesn't really matter to
1:13many of us whether the Buddha actually
1:14existed whether he was an actual
1:16historical figure nevertheless the
1:19question as to the historicity of the
1:21Buddha the question that might arise
1:23around let's say whether the Buddha was
1:25real isn't just a question a sort of a
1:29Western conceit kind of thing it isn't
1:31just a question that arose in the modern
1:33context and I'm going to try to argue
1:35some of the background to that coming up
1:37but you at least need the the path to be
1:39effective to some to some degree in
1:42order to have confidence in the path you
1:43need to have some confidence in the
1:45effectiveness and in the success of the
1:48path and the success of the practice and
1:50one of the ways that we gain confidence
1:52or knowledge about the effectiveness of
1:55these practices is to see how they've
1:58worked for other people before and of
2:00course one of the people that they seem
2:02to have worked for was the hood of
2:04himself
2:05Gautama being somebody who began as as
2:08somebody who was not awakened and became
2:10awakened and seems to have changed
2:11through that time and of course other
2:14people as well after his time who've
2:16also a claim to become awakened or at
2:19least to have gained some kind of
2:21advantages along the path it seems we've
2:23got become
2:23their lives have become easier now
2:26things have changed for them so one way
2:28that we can gain confidence in this path
2:30is by looking at history by looking at
2:33the stories of real people either
2:34historically or contemporary are
2:36contemporaneously however it's also true
2:39and I think we have to keep this in mind
2:41that a lot of people gain confidence in
2:43in their in a path or in a certain
2:47feature of their lives through stories
2:49that are not historical through legends
2:52through myths indeed this is part of the
2:56way that religions have worked
2:57throughout history is by providing
3:00stories around which we model our own
3:03lives not whether that be let's say the
3:06story of Jesus of his virgin birth of
3:09the legends around his birth and his
3:12youth the weather have to have weather
3:15has to be the legend surrounding his
3:18death and supposed resurrection these
3:20are things that we have many of us many
3:23Christians of course will model their
3:24own lives after in certain respects and
3:26of course the ancients also the Greeks
3:29and Romans modeled their lives in
3:31certain respects around the Greek and
3:33Roman deities they saw them as exemplars
3:36around whom they could model themselves
3:39as as successful people and also within
3:43Buddhism we have a legendary stories say
3:47around other Buddha's the four sites
3:50that the Buddha had that revealed to him
3:53the the nature of the world that the
3:55world is full of of pain of suffering of
3:59illness of old age and these are stories
4:02that many of us again find compelling
4:04even though to some degree or another
4:06they are pretty clearly legends they're
4:09pretty clearly mythic in certain
4:11respects now why do I say that these
4:13stories are our mythic or or legendary
4:16in certain respects and it's pretty
4:18clearly the pretty clear that they are
4:19because they're they involve certain
4:21kinds of inconsistencies either in
4:24interior with the way that they they
4:26tell the story or inconsistencies with
4:28the way that we believe the world to be
4:30they may involve miracles of various
4:33kinds that is the breaking of our
4:35ordinary conceptions of cause
4:36effect and and in stories of that kind
4:40make it difficult for us to accept them
4:43at least as historical at least for some
4:45of us now we may say that this concern
4:49with historicity as it's called with
4:51with coming up with consistent stories
4:54like this is some kind of a modern
4:56concede or even a modern Western conceit
4:58that that somehow people in the past
5:00didn't have the same interest in in in
5:03historical accuracy but I don't think
5:07this is the case and one way we can look
5:10at this is by looking at indeed the way
5:12the ancients looked at the world and not
5:14all of them but some exceptional ones
5:17one example being Socrates Socrates is
5:21one of the greatest philosophers who
5:23ever lived
5:24he's sort of one of the founders of
5:26ancient Greek philosophical thinking he
5:29was a Plato's teacher and Plato then
5:33eventually taught Aristotle so he's
5:35really in many ways that the father of
5:37Western philosophy and Socrates in a
5:41dialogue called the Euthyphro which is a
5:43dialogue written by Plato Plato you may
5:46know wrote about Socrates Socrates never
5:49wrote anything himself and so Plato was
5:52sort of his if you like his mouthpiece
5:53Plato was the person who put him into
5:55into writing so in the Euthyphro
5:59Socrates is having a discussion and the
6:03discussion revolves around the fact that
6:05he Socrates has been accused of impiety
6:08by the Greeks some of us also will know
6:11that that Socrates was was involved in a
6:13very great controversy he was actually
6:18taken to port in ancient Greece by the
6:20people of of Athens and was event was
6:23condemned to death and was convicted
6:26indeed of impiety and was eventually
6:29forced to commit suicide because of this
6:31and he did this apparently willingly
6:34because he did not feel that he had done
6:36anything wrong but in any event in this
6:38dialogue he's discussing this charge of
6:42impiety and Socrates says that he is
6:45charged with making up his own gods and
6:48with denying
6:50the gods of ancient Greece and that is
6:52of course that what is the chart with
6:54the charge of impiety is about what
6:56Socrates says is I have no particular
6:58liking for anything but the truth in
7:01other words it's not that he likes one
7:03sort of opinion or another what he likes
7:06is the truth and this leads him to the
7:09opinion in this dialogue keep that he
7:11discusses this opinion his opinion that
7:13the the Greek gods are not actually
7:17quarrelsome but that the Greek gods
7:19don't actually quarrel with one another
7:20that they're not actually vain and
7:22quarrelsome and difficult and and
7:23constantly fighting because he says if
7:27that were the case then what would be
7:29pious for one God might be impious for
7:32another and that simply doesn't make
7:34sense it doesn't make sense that you
7:36could be sort of pious you know pious
7:39for the wrong in the wrong way for for
7:41one godness of in other words pious for
7:43one God but that another another God
7:45would consider impious that that doesn't
7:47make sense that's that notion of piety
7:49doesn't seem to compute for him or
7:51leased it within the context of ancient
7:53Greece Greek understandings of piety
7:55indeed this leads him to the view that
7:58what is good or bad is independent of
8:02the opinions of the gods piety and
8:06indeed is that is the attitude we should
8:09have for someone who is always good who
8:12is always upholding the right who's
8:14always upholding ethics who's always we
8:17might say behaving skilfully and the
8:20only way for us are their only reason
8:22for us to be Piatt them to be pious
8:23towards the gods is if that they
8:25themselves are upholding this kind of
8:28purity and for that to be the case this
8:30purity must be independent of the God's
8:32own opinions because otherwise they
8:35could fight over them but in other words
8:38if if piety or if goodness only had to
8:40do with the opinions of the gods then
8:43one God might have one opinion another
8:44God might have another opinion and that
8:47would put us in a situation where we
8:48literally could never be pious in the
8:50correct way we could never follow
8:52correct ethics because ethics would be
8:55contradictory it would depend which God
8:56you were after so what Socrates is
9:00arguing is that the traditional
9:02histories of agha
9:04with in ancient Greece these historical
9:06stories of gods are incorrect they're
9:09not historical what's what's true is
9:12something else the truth is different
9:15from the supposed histories all of these
9:18supposed histories of the gods
9:19quarreling over things and being vain
9:22and doing bad things these are just
9:24legends and we should really dispense
9:27with the legends or at least we should
9:29dispense with the legends insofar as we
9:31wanted to understand the truth which is
9:33really what drove Socrates now the
9:36Buddha himself had similar kinds of
9:38opinions in several texts the Buddha
9:41says things about the gods of ancient
9:43India which resonate with the kinds of
9:47views that Socrates had the buddha in
9:49particular argues against the position
9:52that the gods are omniscient or that
9:54they are immortal the got the picture of
9:57the gods we get in in the Buddhist view
9:59are our beings who were of course
10:02extremely powerful but who are not
10:05immortal they eventually will die and
10:07who were in fact quite ignorant about
10:10things that they they're they are vain
10:12and ignorant and indeed I did a video of
10:15an earlier video about this I'll put a
10:16link up here on the screen you can see
10:19it if you're interested about where he
10:21says these things and what he says so
10:24basically the Buddha is arguing that in
10:26various respects the traditional history
10:29of the gods the traditional
10:30understanding of the gods as being these
10:33omniscient beings who are not only
10:38omniscient but but who never die who are
10:40immortal he's saying these traditional
10:42histories don't compute they don't they
10:45don't hang with the way we understand
10:48the world to be which is a world in
10:50which all things are always changing and
10:52a world in which a world which is based
10:55around ignorant basically and so as a
10:58result the budet rejects the traditional
11:01histories of the gods now we will some
11:04of us will say that in both of these
11:05situations both the Buddha and Socrates
11:08accepted the existence of gods and so to
11:11that extent they maybe at least out of
11:13touch with some modern views some
11:16atheistic views
11:17let's say or secular views about the
11:20world but that's not really the point
11:22that's not the point I'm trying to get
11:23at the point that I'm trying to get at
11:24here is that both in both the cases of
11:27the Buddha and Socrates they understood
11:29a difference they saw a difference
11:32between traditional legendary histories
11:35and something more accurate that was
11:38more in conformity with the truth the
11:40way things really were so that this is
11:42not this distinction between a history
11:44and legend was not something let's say
11:48modern or Western conceit that sort of
11:50come up recently it's something that's
11:52always been with us so the question that
11:54we began with was the question about
11:56whether there's a difference between the
11:59Buddha of history and the Buddha of
12:00legend and whether that difference makes
12:02a difference to us that is to say is
12:05there such a thing as a historical
12:07Buddha a historical Buddha is sort of
12:10the the way it's understood that's the
12:12sort of phrase that we use the way we
12:14might talk about a historical Jesus the
12:16within the history the history of early
12:20Christianity they're people talking
12:22about the historical Jesus a way of
12:23uncovering what Jesus might actually
12:25have been like as a person as opposed to
12:28let's say the Jesus of faith which is
12:30quite a different kind of character who
12:32is more in line with let's say that the
12:34legends and if we look at the early
12:37Buddhist texts a group of texts from the
12:40Pali Canon and other related material
12:43what we find there is a good a figure a
12:48character who was really quite different
12:50from the Buddha that we would find in
12:52legend we find a more historically
12:56compelling Buddha that is to say we find
12:59we find histories we find stories that
13:03don't conflict with our understanding of
13:05the way the world works
13:07we don't necessarily don't find stories
13:10that are all built around let's say
13:12legend and myth that are all built
13:14around various kinds of miracles now
13:18this is not to say that there are not
13:20miraculous occurrences within the early
13:22Buddhist texts indeed there are many of
13:25them
13:26that may be for various reasons the
13:28first reason we might say is that of
13:30course not all of these early Buddhist
13:32texts are quite as early as others some
13:35of them may stem from the period after
13:37the Buddha's life they may have been
13:39constructed as as the hagiographic
13:42stories making the Buddha out to be a
13:44little bit more than he might have
13:45actually been other stories may have
13:49been told indeed during the Buddha's
13:51lifetime and indeed even in the buddha's
13:53presence and may have been told for
13:55other reasons than let's say historical
13:57accuracy because while I think we've
14:01established that the the ancients just
14:03as well as we understood the difference
14:04between legend and history nevertheless
14:07I think in every culture it's understood
14:09that sometimes a story may be told for
14:13another reason than historical accuracy
14:15it can be told simply as we've discussed
14:18before to inspire to provide a framework
14:21for our lives to to make us think of
14:25greater things and so we can't assume
14:29that in every case of the absolute
14:31necessity was to be historically
14:33accurate that kind of nitpicking
14:35accuracy about every last case that goes
14:38into every story that's something that's
14:40really only of interest to a very small
14:42number of people most people do enjoy
14:44some legend in their lives I mean that's
14:48one of the reasons why let's say books
14:50such as Tolkien's middle-earth other
14:54kinds of of Legends that we see now in
14:57the in the movies and in television and
14:59on books these are very popular they're
15:01popular for a reason because we do find
15:04a lot of truth in them even if they're
15:06not not even claiming to be historically
15:09accurate they provide truth around which
15:11we can construct a life so while these
15:13early Buddhist texts contain a lot of
15:15different kinds of material that's not
15:17really the point the point is among that
15:20material or within that material we find
15:23a very historically compelling kind of
15:26story of a real person of a person
15:29meeting struggles making meeting
15:31difficulties overcoming these
15:33difficulties in various ways but you
15:36know what in ways that are not obviously
15:38Hagee a great
15:39in the ways that are not obviously
15:41constructed out of whole cloth by later
15:44people trying to make somebody look
15:46perfect because there are many respects
15:48in which the the buddha of the early
15:50buddhist texts does not look perfect he
15:54suffers pains he has back pain he
15:56suffers the pains towards the end of his
15:58life he claims to have been talking with
16:02Mara who was this let's say he but as a
16:05demon of that wants to keep us locked in
16:07samsara now he's never tempted by Mara
16:10so much but he does have Mara within his
16:12life he he talks about difficulties and
16:15controversies in the in the early Sangha
16:18people disagreeing with him even people
16:21trying to kill him
16:22these are these are many stories that I
16:25think reveal something historical that
16:28might have been might have been
16:30contained in a real life back then so
16:32while these stories don't need to have
16:34been true in order for us to follow the
16:36path they could all have been
16:37constructed and still the path might be
16:40might be effective and worth worth
16:42undertaking but nevertheless having
16:46historically credible information about
16:49someone who followed this path indeed
16:51somebody who originated the path can
16:54provide us I think with a source of real
16:57inspiration and guidance in our own
17:00lives as we look forward we might want
17:03to say when looking at looking at
17:04somebody like the Buddha how did he do
17:06it
17:06how did he get from point A to point B
17:09in this in this journey what was he like
17:12what was it like for him to do this I
17:15think this can give us insights into our
17:18own journey so one way to strive towards
17:21awakening or to to practice in the
17:23direction of awakening is to consider
17:26what an awakened being might really be
17:28like and if the Buddha wasn't an
17:31awakened being it's hard to believe who
17:33would be he's sort of the paradigmatic
17:35case or if we're let's say a stoic we
17:39might say Socrates is a paradigmatic
17:41case of an awakened being so we look at
17:44these lives and ask you know we ask I
17:48think reasonably what would they have
17:49really been like and not just what the
17:52legends
17:53about them the legends were you know
17:55perhaps constructed later and and anyway
17:58are exaggerations in certain respects we
18:00want to know what it was really like or
18:02what it would have really been like now
18:04as I said we can find these stories in
18:06the early Buddhist texts but they're
18:09buried in various places the problem
18:11with the early Buddhist texts indeed the
18:14reason why the abbe Dharma was later
18:16created out of them is because they're
18:18voluminous it's thousands and thousands
18:20of pages of material it's scattered in
18:23various ways over multiple different
18:26dialogues and discussions and arguments
18:28and statements by the Buddha and
18:31statements by the Buddha's attendants
18:33and and other monastics and other
18:35laypeople
18:36it's a huge amount of information for us
18:38to take on so it's difficult for us to
18:40approach it through that through the
18:42early Buddhist texts alone what we need
18:45is some kind of guidance unfortunately
18:47there's really very little guidance to
18:50be had in respect of finding a
18:52historical account of the Buddha's life
18:55there was a book written in the early
18:5780s by HW Schumann it was written in
19:00German and then translated into English
19:01and that is at least one option but the
19:05book can be somewhat difficult to find
19:06it's I believe it's on Amazon but it can
19:09be expensive sometimes I don't know that
19:11it's even in print anymore
19:12other than that you know there's really
19:15not very much years ago I mean I one of
19:20the things I loved doing was watching
19:21the the great courses I don't know if
19:23you if any of you have have heard of the
19:26great courses it's a video series of
19:29lectures of classes of courses on
19:32various topics and they have very very
19:35few about Buddhism and I I once wrote
19:37them asking if they would do a course
19:38something like this on early Buddhism on
19:40the Buddha of course they haven't done
19:42that and most histories of the Buddha
19:45will be really histories of the later
19:47legends rather than of this early
19:49material so we won't get a historical
19:52litter from most histories of the Buddha
19:54that you'll see not out there for sale
19:57so one option which is I think very
20:02exciting at least for me and I hope for
20:04you is that I'm
20:06decided to make a history of the Buddha
20:08and so this is going to be coming out as
20:11my new course over on the online downer
20:14Institute it's going to be called the
20:16Buddha's life it's a life of the Buddha
20:20from a historical perspective using the
20:23material from the early texts in
20:25particular the texts of the Pali Canon
20:28selected texts of the Pali Canon to
20:30illustrate that life to illustrate its
20:34background where it came from not only
20:36in the Pali Canon but in texts in in
20:38Brahman romantic romantic texts in the
20:42Upanishads and other source material but
20:45then coming forward into the life of the
20:48Buddha before he was awakened what that
20:51was like then what it was like just
20:53after his awakening what was it his
20:55awakening like and and how was his early
20:57teaching like because his teaching seems
20:59to have developed over time and what
21:02were the early teachings like what were
21:03the mature teachings like what were some
21:06of the difficulties that he had along
21:08the way and what happened during the end
21:11of his life during the the death of some
21:14of his closest companions during his own
21:15death and after his death it's a long
21:18story because it is there's a lot of
21:22material actually about the Buddha most
21:25of the the material in the Pali Canon is
21:27regards the Buddha's teachings that is
21:30the Dharma more than the Buddha himself
21:32as a figure but I think there's an
21:36enormous amount to be had there anyway
21:38so if that's of interest to you I would
21:41check it out I've got a link down below
21:43if you're interested in seeing what
21:46that's all about I hope that this has
21:48been useful to you and I hope we'll
21:49catch you on the next one of these
21:50videos meanwhile all of you be well

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