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Diplomado de Actualización en Justicia Penal para Adolescentes — Transcript

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1:37Cas and everyone, we cordially welcome
1:39those who are joining us in person, as
1:41well as those who are following this
1:43session remotely. Continuing with the
1:47programming of the Update Diploma in
1:48Criminal Justice for Adolescents, today
1:50we will once again have the honor of
1:52having the participation of retired
1:53magistrate Santiago Altamirano
1:55Escalante, a specialist in criminal
1:56justice for adolescents from the
1:58Judicial Branch of Yucatan, who will
2:00teach the topic "Principles and
2:01purposes of the specialized system",
2:03corresponding to module one: Guiding
2:05principles of the criminal justice
2:06system for adolescents. It is important
2:10to mention that at the end of the
2:12session, the speaker will allocate a
2:14space for questions. Those who are
2:15joining us remotely are asked to send
2:17their questions through the question
2:19box. Regarding those present in person,
2:22please raise your hand and wait for our
2:24colleagues to bring you the microphone,
2:26so that your comments may be clearly
2:27heard both by the participants
2:29connected online and by everyone else
2:31who is gathered here with us in the
2:32auditorium today for this presentation.
2:35Magistrate, we thank you again for
2:37joining us and sharing your knowledge
2:39with us. We now yield the floor to you.
2:43Good afternoon. Thank you very much,
2:46thank you again for joining us and for
2:48allowing me to be here with you. Well,
2:51let's get started. The first thing we
2:55are going to do is to discuss what, in
2:58the specialized framework of the
3:01specialized standard, represents in one
3:04way or another the main context of
3:07differentiation or the differentiated
3:10system. To do this, unlike the day
3:15before yesterday, where the dialogue
3:17was without any instruments, without
3:20any type of projection, today we are
3:23going to modify this moment that we
3:30have as part of the modules that
3:32allowed me to share with you, through
3:35instruments that will allow us to
3:37visualize some of the things that I am
3:40going to be discussing. To do this,
3:45well, I am going to allow myself to
3:49share, if you allow me to give me
3:55access, please. I can't share yet. If
4:09anyone can support me, please, from the
4:11technical staff. Okay, that's it. So
4:18let's start with part of what we were
4:20discussing, but now getting into the
4:23rule. Marco Antonio Valle, they're
4:26already raising their hands and we're
4:27just going to start. I don't know if
4:29it's for a question. If it is a
4:31question, right? Right. Marco Antonio
4:36Valle, or is it the present? I suppose
4:39it's the present. Well, we're going to
4:42start by starting from the
4:44constitutional content of the rules
4:46that I was mentioning and that are
4:51going to give us precisely the context
4:54of what we call the guarantee model,
4:57which is precisely this comprehensive
5:00criminal justice system for adolescents
5:03. Uh, yes, you can see it now, right? I
5:07suppose someone can shake their head at
5:10me. They already shook their head there
5:11. I see it. I really appreciate it. You
5:16can
5:17>> see it now. Correct. So, the party's
5:21party is the protection block. Of
5:25course, in the case of the Mexican
5:27State, it is important to have a very
5:30clear perspective related to this
5:32differentiated system, with this model
5:35of guarantees that, without a doubt,
5:38Article 18, paragraphs four, five, and
5:41six, as we have already seen, is and
5:43represents in itself, for the specific
5:46case of what the Convention on the
5:49Rights of the Child mentions, the
5:52starting point for the comprehensive
5:55criminal justice system for adolescents
5:57. It must be taken into consideration
6:02that criminal justice for adolescents
6:08represents and requires a series of
6:12instruments that go beyond what we can
6:18see or visualize specifically related
6:21to the accusatory and oral system. It
6:25also seems, as I mentioned in the
6:28previous module, that justice for
6:32adolescents, being a differentiated
6:37legal instrument that must be addressed
6:41to those people who are at an age where
6:44they could understand someone who does
6:48not represent the same dimension as an
6:51adult, is completely out of place and
6:55wrong. Precisely because, as I have
6:58said and have been mentioning and as
7:01you will continue to hear, girls, boys
7:03and adolescents ultimately have double
7:06protection. This is specifically due to
7:09their status as subjects who are in a
7:12development process and that requires a
7:17different perspective where there must
7:20be specific safeguards for their rights
7:22. In that sense, the Constitution
7:26itself, by applying conventionality,
7:29must provide us with a perspective
7:32related to the pro persona principle. I
7:37previously explained this in connection
7:41to the best interest principle,
7:44attempting to convey that both the pro
7:48persona principle and the principle of
7:52best interests possess the same
7:55dimension. This provides us with the
7:59essential guideline to understand that
8:01the scope of any process, whether
8:05judicial or non-judicial, is to act as
8:09the primary guarantors of the rights
8:12for every single girl, boy, and
8:14adolescent. Where should it be focused?
8:18Well, what the first constitutional
8:20article literally refers to is the
8:22promotion, respect, protection and
8:24guarantee of human rights, applying the
8:27principles already set out in that same
8:29first article, which are universality,
8:31interdependence, indivisibility and
8:34progressiveness. What does article four
8:39, paragraph eleven of the Constitution
8:42require, which we have already
8:44discussed, that in any decision
8:47involving a child or an adolescent, we
8:50must ensure the application of the
8:52principle of their best interests is
8:55fully upheld and protected. I also
9:00explained to you that if you wanted to
9:02understand the scope of the best
9:05interests principle, in the same way as
9:08that of comprehensive protection, you
9:10could find support in the content and
9:13description found in articles 12 and 13
9:16of the National Law, which is indeed
9:19focused on the criminal sphere. But
9:23also, using a bit of a syllogism, it
9:26should represent to us that the
9:28explanation contained there can serve
9:31as motivation for any assertion we make
9:34in the context of a hearing, in the
9:37context of any promotion, whether or
9:40not it is of a criminal nature, given
9:43that the particularities found in those
9:46two articles, 12 and 13, are not to be
9:50found anywhere else. What should be
9:55understood by the principle of best
9:57interests? Well, it is precisely to
10:01guarantee compliance with their
10:04development in order to enforce any
10:07instrument through their rights, not
10:10only in the content of the national
10:14legal framework, but also
10:16internationally. And this requirement
10:20is not only, of course, for the
10:22authorities, but also for those
10:24involved in procedures related to
10:27issues of girls, boys and adolescents,
10:29and even more so in the case of the
10:32criminal sphere. We also observed, as
10:37provided in article 18, the description
10:45which expressly states that this system
10:49is grounded in due process; therefore,
10:53it certainly does not represent a
10:56system of lesser punishment, nor is it
11:00a system where the applicable penalty
11:04is considered to be minimal. It must be
11:09understood that the approach, based on
11:13the fact that there is a designation of
11:16a differentiated system, safeguards an
11:19additional scheme, an additional legal
11:23framework to that of any person. There
11:28is no possible way that the application
11:32of any related scheme could be decided
11:36which might force us to comply with any
11:43parameters other than those clearly
11:46included within our national law. Since
11:51, although it is true that the
11:53procedural rules, up to, let's say, 90%
11:57, with the exception of the temporality
12:01related to the duration of the process,
12:04with the duration of the precautionary
12:08measures, the time that the sanction
12:11measure may last, the way in which both
12:17the precautionary measure and the
12:19sanction measure must be applied, are
12:22completely different from what is seen
12:24in the context of adult criminal law.
12:29It is clear that the name itself, as
12:33established in article 18, refers to a
12:37specialized comprehensive system in
12:41which it cannot be understood that the
12:45purpose of the procedural parties, of
12:49the participants within this system,
12:54have a different approach or anchored
12:58in punitive thinking, since the
13:01socio-educational purpose is simply to
13:05focus on this condition of people in
13:09development everything that is going to
13:15be considered as an effect to
13:17contemplate within the sanction. It is
13:22important to mention that the
13:24clarification we see within the
13:26description of article 18 itself speaks
13:29of the guarantee of human rights in
13:32general and specific ones, as I have
13:35already mentioned and pointed out. On
13:39the one hand, we have the Universal
13:42Declaration of Human Rights, which is
13:44reflected in the different
13:46constitutional articles and, starting
13:49from the first constitutional article
13:52itself, we have conventionality and the
13:55pro-person principle, which, without a
13:57doubt, regardless of whether they are
14:00focused on the sphere of adults, also
14:03has its direct application to children
14:06and adolescents, especially, as I have
14:10been saying, in the sphere related to
14:12differentiated criminal proceedings.
14:16Differentiated criminal proceedings are
14:19undoubtedly fully described within
14:22article 18 of the constitution, where
14:25it is precisely stated that what we are
14:27going to have as sanctions are measures
14:30, and these measures have a purpose.
14:34and this purpose, as I also discussed,
14:37has to do not only with the context,
14:40with the circumstances of the
14:43adolescent with society, the context
14:46and circumstances of the adolescent
14:49with the family and also, and more and
14:52above all, with the adolescent himself
14:56for having interfered in an act
14:58classified in the criminal law as a
15:02crime. We must not forget that within
15:06article 18 itself, as we have also seen
15:10, it is completely prohibited, right?
15:15Only for cases of the manner in which
15:19the sanction derived from a
15:21responsibility must be fulfilled, where
15:25any person under 14 years of age, for
15:28no reason and for no reason, a person
15:31who is under 14 years of age will have
15:35to be subject to compliance with
15:38measures, or a custodial sanction or
15:43custodial measures, where the sentence
15:46issued by a judicial body will be
15:49complied with. The same applies to
15:54cases related to the scope of
15:57precautionary measures, where the rules
16:01themselves, which are rules that
16:04require, as we will see later in
16:08article 64, clearly describe which
16:16aspects must be considered by every
16:19system operator in relation to the
16:23knowledge that must be addressed and
16:26possessed precisely in order to be
16:33considered a specialist with full
16:37knowledge related to criminal justice
16:40for adolescents. Here, even the
16:45criterion for an appointment for an
16:49adolescent resulting from an
16:52investigation is to present the
16:55adolescent to the Public Prosecutor's
16:58Office, from the moment they are asked,
17:05once the facts for which they were
17:08cited have been described, they are
17:10made aware of and are made to exercise
17:13their right to remain silent or not and
17:16reserve the right to express anything
17:18related to these facts. This is the
17:22first thing the Public Prosecutor's
17:24Office does and they are even informed
17:26that, in any case, if they so decide,
17:28it will be before the judge. Therefore,
17:31he would have to wait, even if he had
17:34the desire, the spirit to make any
17:37statement, to wait to go to the judge
17:39to express himself in relation to what
17:42has been made known to him. In advance,
17:48both articles 20 and 21, despite the
17:50fact that it could be understood that
17:53they are not precepts that should be
17:56contemplated for the comprehensive
17:58criminal justice system for adolescents
18:01, it is a reality that we would be
18:03completely wrong to ignore the
18:05indications that we have in those
18:08articles, since we cannot lose sight of
18:11the fact that the system itself, as
18:15stated in the specialization section,
18:18in article 64, one of the knowledge
18:21that those who are involved in the
18:24processes and procedures of criminal
18:27justice for teachers must have is in
18:31relation to the accusatory and oral
18:34system, where the principles set out in
18:40the first paragraph and which are the
18:45same ones that are repeated within the
18:47national law itself, such as
18:49contradiction, concentration,
18:50continuity, publicity and immediacy, do
18:52not cease to apply. Furthermore, within
18:59Article 20 itself, in Section B
19:06concerning the rights of the accused,
19:09we have detailed those rights to which
19:12the adolescent is entitled, which are
19:15also replicated within the National Law
19:18, just as those contained in Section C,
19:21which make reference to the rights of
19:24the victim. Therefore, the application
19:27of Article 20 in its entire context
19:29does not disappear. Although it is true
19:34that we have people under 18 years of
19:36age in a differentiated process, so
19:39much so that despite being
19:40differentiated, it does not cease to be
19:43or be called a differentiated criminal
19:46process, therefore, its validity does
19:48not disappear. In the Universal
19:54Declaration of Human Rights, we have to
19:57take into consideration, independently
20:00of what we have in the Convention on
20:02the Rights of the Child, aspects
20:08related to a series of situations that
20:12must be contemplated in criminal
20:15matters in order not to infringe any
20:19right that could be represented in the
20:23issue related to differentiated
20:26criminal justice. And that, in the
20:31review itself, we can realize that in
20:34the description of the national law,
20:36which is the instrument in force as of
20:392016, each and every one of the
20:45precepts that the Universal Declaration
20:47itself and the Convention on the Rights
20:50of the Child have been indicating and
20:52that have a direct relationship with
20:55the issue related to the criminal
20:57sphere are duly framed. And that, well,
21:02I will insistently point out that in
21:04both cases, both in the Universal
21:06Declaration of Human Rights and in the
21:09Convention on the Rights of the Child
21:11itself, we should not understand that
21:13both instruments were created or had
21:19the purpose or objective of generating
21:23a system of guarantees at a universal
21:27level. On the contrary, what both
21:31instruments seek is to safeguard
21:33precisely any right that any human
21:39being may wish to have and that their
21:41focus is not necessarily on the
21:43criminal sphere. The Convention on the
21:48Rights of the Child, precisely in its
21:52article 37, also refers to the issue
21:56related to the context of criminal law.
22:02In that context, there are specific
22:04particularities that are required of
22:07the member nations of the United
22:11Nations with respect to their own
22:13systems. Those who decided to adhere to
22:17its content and who committed to
22:20complying with everything set out in
22:23the convention had to make decisions.
22:27That is why I explained how the Mexican
22:30State, where we differentiated age
22:35groups that had nothing to do with age
22:38groups, as I have also said, in order
22:41to comply with the content of the
22:44convention...I will give you an example
22:46: in Colombia, no person under the age
22:49of 14 goes to a criminal proceeding,
22:52even if it is called differentiated. It
22:56is precisely from the age of fourteen
22:58years and older that they can be
23:00formally brought to a legal process. In
23:03Mexico, we decided differently and,
23:06even within that decision, we can see
23:10that any person under 14 years of age,
23:14well, without a doubt, has procedural
23:17characteristics and rules, uh,
23:22established through the different
23:25principles and rights that prevent them
23:28from having a process with similar
23:30characteristics to those of any person
23:33who is 14 years of age or older, since,
23:36uh, the Constitution itself in Article
23:3918, as we have also seen, makes the
23:44State itself differentiate how it will
23:48address the issues of people under 14
23:52and issues related to people 14 years
23:55of age or older. Also in Article 40
24:00itself, well, we can also see different
24:07aspects related to the criminal issue
24:10where the particularities referred to
24:14there, such as: the issue of the
24:17presumption of innocence, the issue of
24:21the dignity of the adolescent, the
24:24issue of reintegration, the issue of
24:28reinsertion, the issue of reeducation,
24:33the issue of the authority that must
24:36have jurisdiction for the purposes of
24:38the processes related to, uh, children,
24:41as the convention itself refers to,
24:43well, they must be independent
24:45authorities. Independent of whom?
24:49Independent of the other powers that
24:52operated before the 2005 reform. And
24:57that's where the reminder comes related
25:00to the different models applicable in
25:02Mexico. We must remember that this
25:07entire journey and transit to reach
25:10this moment was a path in which we
25:13lived, uh, a vision of the Mexican
25:16State that understood comprehensive
25:23protection in a mistaken way, until in
25:262005 it began to correct that vision,
25:29realizing that the use of this
25:32temporary guardianship, which
25:34apparently safeguarded the rights of
25:37girls, boys and adolescents, invaded
25:40the sphere of competence of human
25:43rights in general; given that within
25:46the Constitution itself, the right to
25:51family is contemplated, and the
25:53Convention itself also refers to it,
25:55and the General Law on the Rights of
25:57Girls, Boys and Adolescents itself
25:59mentions it, and in the same way the
26:02family code has been replicated in all
26:04the states of the country. In that
26:07sense, well, the principles, the rights
26:12that have been embodied, the different
26:15international provisions were
26:17transferred to our own regulations, to
26:20our own national legal framework. Three
26:25principles are essential to
26:27understanding the differentiation or
26:29differentiated system, the specialty,
26:32which is part of what you are
26:34experiencing right now through this
26:37training process. The minimum age and
26:42minimum intervention age, as I said,
26:45were set by the Mexican State in the
26:482005 reform, where we began to talk
26:51about age segmentation and which is
26:55textually contemplated within the
26:58fourth paragraph. Logically, we must
27:03understand that those not mentioned
27:05will be mentioned in another instrument
27:08, such as the Criminal Code itself,
27:11which has as subjects people who have
27:14turned 18 years old and older; and in
27:17that sense, well, there must be
27:19specific people, procedures, and
27:22authorities for this system.
27:26Unfortunately, in the last 5 years the
27:29trend has been different. Jurisdiction
27:35has been given to judges who have
27:37brought a criminal profile, to judges
27:40who have brought a family profile to be
27:43given jurisdiction related to the
27:46system. In my opinion, the trend that
27:52we are going to have to follow will be
27:55a trend related to specialization. That
27:59trend related to specialization, they
28:01are telling me that it is not heard
28:03well. I do not know if that is correct.
28:07If it is correct, I would ask them to
28:09tell me. I do not know if those in the
28:12room are hearing adequately. Yes, they
28:14are hearing adequately. It is probably
28:17the bandwidth for those who are via the
28:20internet, but I am going to dry myself
28:22off a bit anyway.
28:25>> Good afternoon, my face does not fit on
28:27my face. Let's
28:31>> see, we are here and we are going to
28:32continue. And that, and that I have
28:38already gone back, who knows how far I
28:40have gone back. We are going to have to
28:45see where we leave off. There we leave
28:52off there. And these indications, in
28:56turn, are focused precisely on
29:01addressing these particularities that
29:04are found within the system; and that
29:08the key point with the minimum
29:12intervention, which we still have not
29:15managed to understand since the first
29:18reform in 2005, is the principle of
29:23minimum intervention, which we will see
29:26later to try to understand it a little
29:29more, but which I do not want to leave
29:32unmentioned at this time, given that
29:35this particularity is the one that has
29:38been constantly and permanently faced,
29:41both in the area of investigation that
29:44corresponds, as stated in article 21 of
29:47the Constitution, to the Public
29:49Prosecutor's Office, as well as in the
29:53investigation stage in its two moments,
29:57the initial and the complementary,
30:01where the claim always continues to
30:05have a punitive nature. And I say: the
30:11claim is not of the judge, and not
30:13necessarily of the Public Prosecutor's
30:16Office, but of the procedural parties,
30:19of the intervening parties, not only
30:21those who come from the private sphere,
30:24but also in some cases those of us who
30:27find ourselves within public
30:29responsibility, be it the Public
30:31Prosecutor's Office, public defender,
30:34private defender, legal advisor to the
30:39State, private legal advisor and who
30:42always seek the tendency to
30:44imprisonment. Prison cannot be
30:49understood as that specific instrument
30:51which will allow us to adequately
30:54comply with the spirit of our national
30:57law. The spirit of national law is
31:01socio-educational, and if there are
31:04ways and means to comply with it, for
31:08example, paragraph five, which refers
31:11to alternative releases, as long as
31:14they do not conflict with the rights of
31:18adolescents; then there must be room
31:21for compliance with this principle of
31:24minimum intervention. In other words,
31:29minimum intervention is: if there is a
31:33need for the Public Prosecutor's Office
31:37to prosecute a matter, of course,
31:42involving an adolescent—and I'm going
31:46to talk about it another way and start
31:49—if there is an extreme need, I would
31:52say, for the Public Prosecutor's Office
31:55to prosecute a case with the
31:58supervising judge, well, preferably
32:04with the adolescent at liberty. If it
32:09is impossible for them to remain at
32:12liberty, well, preferably at the
32:15hearing, if we reach a binding
32:18agreement, the measure should be at
32:21liberty. If this is impossible, well,
32:25the time of the measure should be for
32:28the shortest possible time. It should
32:32be remembered, and I will digress here,
32:35that we cannot say that failure to
32:38comply with a measure, or a
32:40precautionary measure, I am referring
32:43to, could allow a more severe measure
32:46to be imposed due to the failure to
32:49comply. In the case of adolescents, the
32:54trend is that the last resort, as we
32:56know it, which is the final reason in
32:59criminal law for precautionary measures
33:01, is the end of the term of preventive
33:04detention. We are not going to increase
33:08the term of preventive detention. We
33:11are going to seek, of course, to comply
33:14with article 20, especially section C,
33:16so that the victim is not at risk. We
33:20must request that this measure be a
33:24less intense measure in order to comply
33:28with the minimum intervention. The aim
33:33of the minimum intervention is to
33:35ensure that the contact that the
33:39adolescent who has infringed, who has
33:42committed an act indicated in criminal
33:44law as a crime, must have is for the
33:46shortest possible time. That is why the
33:51provision of time that can be delayed,
33:54the determination of an adolescent is
34:01less than that of an adult. The time
34:07that precautionary measures will be set
34:09proportionally is less than those for
34:12adults. Therefore, the minimum
34:16intervention has that specific focus.
34:20From there, we move on to what the
34:22International Covenant on Civil and
34:25Political Rights refers to. Let's see,
34:30I keep seeing hands raised. I don't
34:33know if it's the attendance or another
34:36issue. If it were for another issue, I
34:41would ask that in any case, you leave a
34:44comment there or make a comment in the
34:47chat saying that you have a question so
34:50that I don't stop because if I see that
34:53you ask...Oh, yes, there are already
34:56questions. How many? Let's answer.
35:02Yesterday we didn't answer. Let's
35:03answer so that they don't have a bad
35:06taste in their mouths. Let's see, how
35:09much does it harm society that a
35:11teenager is not tried as an adult for
35:14serious crimes? Let me take the case of
35:17the guys. If I'm not mistaken, and I
35:21don't want to make the mistake of
35:23saying what I'm going to say, but
35:25according to what I've read, because I
35:28only read it in the media, I understand
35:31that these two young people are adults,
35:33they're already 18 years old. If I'm
35:38wrong, I think the answer only focuses
35:45on one part of the problem. How much
35:48does it harm society? I do not believe
35:52that we should be talking about the
35:54extent to which this process harms our
35:57society. If you've been able to review
36:03it, and I hope you will, it would be
36:05worth your while to read the entire
36:10chapter 5 that talks about prevention.
36:16Prevention is essential for the system.
36:20It's a preventive system, but in a
36:22different way than the preventive
36:24police that does preventive work.
36:28Preventive work ultimately has a major
36:31role in criminal justice for
36:34adolescents. So, I don't think the
36:38answer would be inappropriate on my
36:40part, that is to say, it doesn't harm,
36:43right? Well, I believe that what is
36:47affecting the situation are both things
36:49: the lack of full and timely
36:52compliance with what the law indicates
36:54regarding compliance with measures. And
36:59what the law itself also states
37:02regarding these alternative solutions,
37:05because constant monitoring is required
37:08to ensure compliance; and if not, as I
37:11also said, let's look at the principle,
37:15which is related to modifying the
37:20context of the decisions that are made,
37:23because it is precisely to ensure
37:25compliance. Then, let's see, what else
37:30in practice do specialized courts not
37:32have to be? Well, in practice, I mean,
37:36if we refer to space, we are not
37:38talking about a space that must have
37:40certain characteristics. I believe that
37:43the main thing is specialty. What is
37:45the difference between age groups and
37:47age groups? No, what I have been
37:50discussing is the age segment and age
37:52groups. The age segment, I was
37:55referring to my own personal
37:57explanation related to how the criminal
38:00policy of the Mexican State implements
38:03the content of criminal law. That is
38:06what I mean by age monitoring. And the
38:10age groups are in the law, where they
38:12are divided into three age groups. 12
38:16to under 14, 14 to under 16, 16 to
38:19under 18. What is the effect? The
38:23effect is that there are differences in
38:26relation to the time of the measures,
38:29whether they are sanctions or
38:32precautionary measures, to the way in
38:35which the sanction is applied, because
38:38it can be custodial or non-custodial,
38:41and to the criminal types that imply
38:44the possibility of a custodial measure.
38:48That is the difference. Another
38:50question, can a 10-year-old child have
38:52their presumption of innocence violated
38:54outside the professional context even
38:55if they are not facing a criminal
38:57proceeding? The thing is that the
39:00presumption of innocence is something
39:02that can be lost by any person at any
39:04given time. The difference is that this
39:0710-year-old child will be unaccountable
39:10, therefore, in order to comply, with
39:13the presumption of innocence, they
39:15would have to be in a proceeding. So,
39:18in that sense, I believe it could not
39:20exist. Why? Because it will not be
39:23taken to a process. In the event that a
39:26minor under 8 years of age accidentally
39:28kills a sibling, what would it be like?
39:30No, there is no process for them. It
39:34would have to be either through an
39:37agreement with the indirect victims or,
39:40in this case, through a civil process.
39:47There was one there that I did not have
39:49time to read, it slipped my mind and,
39:51well, that would be the way, but if it
39:53is between families, well, the Office
39:55of the Protection Attorney does have to
39:58make decisions regarding that. How does
40:01the Convention on the Rights of the
40:02Child require the best interests of the
40:03teacher to be guaranteed? Well, there
40:05are sanctions that the United Nations
40:08has, however, the process to leave the
40:11convention is a long process, it lasts
40:132 years. Failure to comply with a
40:16reform. Uh, I understand, I received
40:19information and it is not through
40:21Facebook, but through invitations that
40:23were made to colleagues to participate
40:25in a series of proposals to reform the
40:27national law. I insist, they can go as
40:31far as they want, but the issue and the
40:33context are that they will be facing an
40:35international commitment if they touch
40:38on the issue of the socio-educational
40:40aspect. If they abandon the
40:43socio-educational aspect to take this
40:45system to the punitive sphere, yes, we
40:48will be failing to comply with the
40:50convention. But if they maintain the
40:54socio-educational aspect and extend the
40:56amount of time, well, they will not be
40:59affecting the convention. I mean, it
41:02would be irrational because right now
41:04we have 5 years. We are going to please
41:08those who say that adolescents, well,
41:10their processes are very weak. Let's
41:13give it 10 years. So let someone tell
41:16me in their opinion, when I am making
41:19their opinion, I am talking about their
41:22relationship, not only legal, but
41:24social, what will happen in the case?
41:27Because it is not the case that it is a
41:2917-year-old adolescent and we are going
41:31to have them in a socio-educational
41:34process until they are 27. It seems a
41:36little strange to me. I think it would
41:40be worth asking a psychologist if this
41:4210-year socio-educational process will
41:45benefit or affect a right. In my
41:49opinion, if we talk about 10 years for
41:52a 17-year-old, it will end up affecting
41:55them, but as I said in the previous
41:57module and I repeat today, I am not a
42:00legislator, therefore, all I can do is
42:02give my opinion. But whether they
42:05actually listen is another matter. From
42:08what age onwards is it mandatory to
42:09always listen to someone's opinion? For
42:11every girl, boy, and adolescent,
42:13remember, we must talk about girls,
42:14boys, and adolescents on a permanent
42:16basis. It means listening. If I put a
42:19sweet in this hand and I put an apple
42:22in this hand, I am going to listen to
42:24the child and ask them, which do they
42:27prefer? The apple or the sweet? I know
42:30the boy will choose the candy. What
42:35should I do? Give them the sweet? No,
42:37explain to them why the sweet cannot be
42:39given. The reason is their health issue
42:42. That's what the right to be heard is
42:46all about. There is a degree of guilt
42:50depending on the...No, the degree of
42:52guilt here is only used to determine
42:55the amount of time of punishment, not
42:58for guilt, because in criminal justice
43:01there is no guilt for minors. Then,
43:05let's see, they are still considered
43:17minors. Well, I would say, it's not 364
43:23, right? I mean, we have to say, let's
43:27say it another way, 17 years, 11 months
43:32, 23 hours, 59 minutes, 59 seconds. If
43:37at that moment an event occurs and the
43:41report is like this, we go to the
43:43record and the record should state
43:45their time of birth. If they are still
43:48a person under 18, well, there is the
43:50answer. They are still a person under
43:5418 up to one second before. In a
43:56country like Mexico, where
43:57unfortunately criminals recruit in the
44:00ranks, the most appropriate thing to do
44:02is to maintain, right? I think that my
44:04opinion on this would be, that's my
44:07opinion, my opinion would be to
44:10strengthen the issue of family and
44:13generate real opportunities that
44:15include, well, a change of place of
44:18residence while issues related to
44:21organized crime are resolved, so that
44:24they have the opportunities they should
44:28have. A teenager of 13, 14, 15 years
44:32old, if you teach them what is there,
44:36well, I think that in one way or
44:38another, they are going to have a
44:41misguided view. When I say misguided
44:45view, I mean that it is not the same if
44:48you arrive home and perhaps only eat
44:50once a day; there are statistics that
44:53have been collected related to them,
44:55than if you have, through this type of
44:58participation in these groups, three
45:00meals a day and whatever you want. So I
45:03think that what we have to think about
45:05is the way in which we can familiarize
45:07them with the things they need. And in
45:11which case is the measure of training?
45:14Well, the training measure will be
45:15perfectly described in the law, but
45:17well, I will give you an answer. The
45:20custodial measures are for crimes
45:22listed in article 164. And I'll change
45:25it for you. I would say custodial
45:29measures, which are those that ask
45:31about interception, which are called
45:34custodial measures, could only be
45:36applied to criminal types listed in
45:39article 164, as long as they are people
45:41who are 14 years old or older.
45:45Therefore, those who are under 14,
45:47Agustín, cannot have custodial
45:49measures. Magistrate, speaking of the
45:52specialty in the most minimal and
45:54minimal intervention, what happens when
45:56a control judge realizes it? The
45:59minority must decline jurisdiction, act
46:02if we are in the investigation stage,
46:05conclude and define and decline
46:07jurisdiction. Because if we are talking
46:12about the determination that was
46:14already made in the hearing of the
46:16linkage, then at that moment they must
46:19conclude what they have to conclude and
46:21decline jurisdiction so that the
46:23specialized judge is aware of it. The
46:27competent judge must carry out exactly
46:29the...well, you are saying it yourself
46:30there to effectively declare
46:32incompetent. You are saying it right
46:33there. What happens if the judge
46:36imposes preventive detention as a
46:37measure, even if the crime for which
46:39they were charged is unclear? Must one
46:41seek an amparo appeal? In other words,
46:42you have to exhaust the procedure first
46:43, right? Remember that in order to go
46:46to the amparo procedure, you have to
46:48conclude the means we have, which is
46:51the appeal, for it to be resolved.
46:54Assistance, how long should a minor be
46:56in custody? It's not that it's not
46:58about how long they can be in custody,
47:00it's just that a person under 18 years
47:02of age should be in custody for the
47:03shortest possible time. We have the
47:06unfortunate habit of using what the
47:11Constitution allows us administratively
47:14, which is 48 hours for the Public
47:16Prosecutor's Office and 36 for the
47:19police. And sometimes we play with
47:22those times, when we shouldn't play
47:24with those times, not with adults and
47:26much less with adolescents, precisely
47:28because the tendency is always for them
47:30to be released. I've already answered
47:32some, I'll continue. In the
47:35International Covenant on Civil and
47:37Political Rights, well, we are also
47:39discussing the issue related to the
47:41criminal sphere, we are discussing how
47:43guarantee processes should have this
47:45safeguard, right? Principles related to
47:49due process, related to the fact that
47:51preventive detention should not be a
47:54general rule and that, well, for me,
47:57unfortunately, that reform that was
47:59made has been going on for almost 7
48:02years, if I am not mistaken, where in
48:05the 19th constitutional article, we
48:07have a list of criminal types of
48:10preventive detention that contravene
48:12international instruments and that,
48:15well, the misfortune and justification
48:19and the mistaken need for the direction
48:25of justice in society, where there is a
48:28detained person who we think already
48:31has full responsibility or guilt. To
48:35understand each other a little better,
48:38we would say that by having, uh, a
48:40different measure, we would think that
48:43there is no justice, when in reality we
48:46have duly clear rules, that we are
48:49wrong when we think that, for example,
48:52in the detention control hearing we
48:58have to practically bring, if it were,
49:01uh, a hemicide, the body of the person
49:04whose life was taken so that the judge
49:06can prove, uh, the legality of the
49:09detention. When we know, as the code
49:12itself says, that that is not the
49:13purpose of that hearing. That hearing
49:17is simply to determine whether or not
49:19the detention was legal. From there, we
49:23move to indictment. We will have time
49:26when the extended investigation is
49:29finished to support the criminal action
49:32of the Public Ministry. The exercise of
49:35criminal action does not happen before.
49:37Sometimes we lose sight of this. So, we
49:41lose sight of this and we want, either
49:43due to a criterion that we have
49:45detected, perhaps minimal or complete,
49:47from the judge where he demands many
49:49things, well, I'm going to take him to
49:51the dead so that he will grant me legal
49:53detention. No, no, that's not what it's
49:55for. The National Code says so or in
49:59its case for the issue of bonding and
50:02I'm going to a case of a teenager who
50:05is under 14 years old where the request
50:08for a hearing, well, we would say that
50:11it is even unnecessary because he is
50:14under 14 years old. Why would I ask for
50:18a detention control hearing when we
50:21know in advance that there is already
50:23an action by the parents where they
50:25have presented a report and we see that
50:28he is under 14 years old and those are
50:32the things that we have to understand,
50:35right? Dignity and judicial guarantees,
50:43humane treatment, differentiated
50:46treatment in the case of adolescents,
50:50the separation of adults and
50:57adolescents, who even in the case of
51:00those who are subject to custodial
51:02measures must be separated by age,
51:05because it seems that there is not much
51:08difference between a 14-year-old, let's
51:11say, and a 16-year-old, yes, there is a
51:14big difference. So, these types of
51:17situations and conditions must be taken
51:19into consideration. Comprehensive
51:22protection, what is comprehensive
51:23protection? It is referred to in the
51:27International Covenant on Economic and
51:29Social Rights. Remember that there are
51:32two covenants and that we also have
51:34references related to the subject of
51:36criminal law. It speaks of the
51:39requirements for special protection and
51:41assistance measures for children and
51:43adolescents. The protection that must
51:46exist, the principles that must guide
51:49action. Now we are going to go into the
51:53principles. In the principles, well,
51:56well, we always have at the beginning
51:58the issue of the principle of best
52:01interests. We also have specialization
52:06as a principle, we have legality, due
52:08process and presumption of innocence.
52:13We are going to realize how, within
52:16some and others, that is, within the
52:19principles of the accusatory system, we
52:22have principles that exist within the
52:25comprehensive system and that the
52:28principles that make the difference are
52:31principles that we will not find within
52:34the accusatory system. the minimum
52:39intervention that we have already
52:41discussed, the alternative solutions,
52:43in this case we are talking about the
52:45solutions embodied in national law,
52:47where said solutions, well, as we have
52:49seen, for me, in my understanding and
52:51scope of the study and analysis that I
52:53have done, we will have to say that
52:57there we have the reparation agreement
53:00and the conditional suspension also as
53:02part of the alternative solutions and
53:05that in the case of the abbreviated
53:07procedure, of the abbreviated trial, it
53:10does not enter as an alternative
53:12solution, it will enter in any case as
53:15an alternative solution because it
53:17continues to be a procedure that will
53:20not take the same time as the ordinary
53:22procedure, that is, the one that goes
53:26through the three stages of the
53:28accusatory and oral system and that
53:31reaches the stage and that reaches the
53:33moment of execution with a third judge
53:36different from those who have already
53:38acted or in its case similar to the
53:41control judge, but who cannot or could
53:43not have been a party or have been the
53:46one who conducted the trial, because
53:50also for economic reasons it has become
53:52clear that in the case of the
53:54comprehensive criminal justice system
53:57for adolescents and I say economic, not
54:00because adolescents do not have the
54:02resources that adults might have, which
54:05is completely true, but because
54:07resources of the power of the judicial
54:10branches that have decided that trials,
54:13in the case of the comprehensive
54:15criminal justice system for adolescents
54:18, are to be conducted by a single judge
54:22, which is a situation that, well, we
54:26have this accusatory and oral model
54:29design that has its own characteristics
54:32and if we were to analyze the
54:35justification for having a trial court,
54:38we would understand that what is
54:41intended to be minimized is the risk of
54:45corruption. And if we have a single
54:48judge, then he will make all the
54:50decisions. We will not have a
54:52rapporteur, we will not have a speaker,
54:54we will have a judge who will do
54:56everything. And that is the need for
55:00this design that came to replace the
55:02pure Anglo-Saxon model, where we have a
55:05judge and a jury. And here in Mexico,
55:09well, you will understand the reasons
55:11why there is no jury and that, well,
55:14they also enter into the discussion and
55:16debate in the Anglo-Saxon model of jury
55:19selection that we do not have in Mexico
55:22, which we have come to replace with a
55:24trial court; But I insist, in most
55:27systems in the states, what we have is
55:29a trial judge. Minimum intervention, as
55:33I said, giving priority to alternative
55:35solutions, proportionality,
55:37individualization of measures. Let's
55:40see, individualization of measures,
55:41right? Well, it's an issue that we have
55:46to point out and say that it entails,
55:50well, building a tailor-made suit. And
55:56this tailor-made suit is nothing more
55:59than building, according to the judge's
56:02decision, the number of measures that,
56:05uh, by law, by rule, must be imposed on
56:09the adolescent, who, well, must belong
56:12to one of the three age groups, and the
56:15three age groups, well, have their own
56:18rules. It cannot be that an adolescent
56:22in age group one is given three
56:25measures when the law says that it can
56:27be up to one or that an adolescent in
56:30age group two is given four when the
56:32law says that for age group two it can
56:35only be up to two, not four. So, these
56:39are rules that are completely set; But
56:42regardless of the number of measures,
56:45an individualized execution plan would
56:48have to be developed according to the
56:51particularities of the adolescent, the
56:54particularities of their family, the
56:57particularities of their peer group (
57:00that is, their friends or the people
57:03around them), as well as the place
57:07where they live, with the purpose of
57:09complying with the individualized
57:11execution plan. I also made the comment
57:15, right?,in relation to social and
57:16family reintegration and the full
57:18development of the adolescent.
57:22>> Criminal justice for adolescents, well,
57:24is a reduced version of the adult
57:25criminal justice system. I believe I
57:27have already said it on multiple
57:28occasions, I will emphasize it here
57:29again. We are not talking about a
57:33minimum punishability, we are not
57:35talking about a reduced imposition of
57:37prison time. Well, it is a system that,
57:41since the Constitution, has been made
57:42clear that it is differentiated and
57:44that it requires a team of specialists
57:49who will be allowed to operate as long
57:52as they have the knowledge that has
57:54been proposed and defined. And that,
57:58well, it is also accompanied by the
58:01entire legal framework regarding human
58:03rights embodied in our Constitution, by
58:06an international legal framework. And
58:08that, well, the issue of State
58:10intervention, well, it should be an
58:13intervention with a socio-educational
58:15approach, but not a punitive one, and
58:17that the response that there should be,
58:20well, it should be totally focused on
58:25the socio-educational sphere. Let's see
58:31other questions while we go to the
58:33other context of rights, which are
58:38rights to be constantly considered in
58:41the processes and that, well, just as
58:44they are valid for adolescents, they
58:47are also valid for girls and boys.
58:51Let's see, what questions do you have,
58:52teacher? One question. How was the
58:54treatment carried out for an adult who
58:56is now 22 years old and who committed
58:57sexual abuse when he was 17 years old?
59:00Well, there, see if the objective of
59:06the system is that, it is my opinion.
59:10Remember that each judge has his or her
59:15own determination. When I do an
59:21analysis, I'm going to use an old term,
59:25a biopsychosocial study of a 22-
59:27year-old person. Well, if I see that
59:32the person has finished a degree, who
59:34has, well, perhaps, knowledge related
59:37to blacksmithing, who already has a
59:40livelihood through it; in other words,
59:43that the person, who is 22 years old,
59:49has managed to establish himself and
59:52that the purpose of the system, being
59:54socio-educational, would not achieve
59:57much with him, well, my approach to
1:00:00this type of crime would be for him to
1:00:02undergo therapy. If I were a judge,
1:00:06that would be the only thing I would do
1:00:08, even if it warranted, according to
1:00:11the provision of 164, that the measure
1:00:16be custodial. Because the reasoning has
1:00:20to be done. What will affect him more?
1:00:25Should we take him to custodial
1:00:27measures or give him non-custodial
1:00:30measures? My opinion is to leave him
1:00:33with non-custodial measures. Regarding
1:00:36the obligation of the Public
1:00:37Prosecutor's Office to prioritize...No,
1:00:38no, the Public Prosecutor's Office has
1:00:40not understood that part. The
1:00:41opportunity criterion, if I'm not
1:00:43mistaken, is in article 130. It's not
1:00:44just the opportunity criterion. We also
1:00:47have the one there, which I can check
1:00:50if someone can help me while I don't
1:00:53remember if it's article 130. There,
1:00:56the law makes a description where it
1:01:00gives complete powers, extraordinary
1:01:02powers to the Public Ministry, not only
1:01:04for the application of the opportunity
1:01:06principle, but for the application, it
1:01:08says there, of an educational plan;
1:01:10that the educational plan is nothing
1:01:12more than, when looking at the criminal
1:01:14type, and looking at the adolescent and
1:01:17seeing their age and seeing the
1:01:18characteristics of the event, well, why
1:01:20do I prosecute him? It's better to take
1:01:24him to an educational program, I think
1:01:27it says educational program, or in your
1:01:29case, well, well, I don't charge him or
1:01:32if I'm going to charge him immediately,
1:01:34I ask the judge for a hearing to make
1:01:37the charge. Are you familiar with the
1:01:40case of the double femicide that
1:01:42occurred in the state of Michoacán by
1:01:43a minor under 15, in case they pass a
1:01:45sentence? I don't remember if it's over
1:01:47yet. If that matter has not ended, and
1:01:50it is that of the teachers, I would not
1:01:52dare to give an opinion; because, well,
1:01:54we have to wait until the situation has
1:01:57already occurred, until there is no
1:01:59current means of defense. But, well,
1:02:01here we have to understand the
1:02:03circumstances and particularities, in
1:02:05that as in all, derived from the fact
1:02:07that, well, how did the weapon get to
1:02:10the teenager? In other words, who has
1:02:12that teenager under their protection?
1:02:14What were the circumstances that caused
1:02:16the event to happen? And, well, we are
1:02:18not going to go into further details.
1:02:20Why can a minor under 12 be tried now?
1:02:23No, a minor under 12 or 13 cannot be
1:02:25tried. It has always been possible to
1:02:28prosecute minors from the age of 12
1:02:30since the reform in 2005. That means
1:02:33that they will go before a judge. Yes,
1:02:37they are accountable. Those under 12
1:02:40are not accountable. Why does it say
1:02:43that there is no guilt for children in
1:02:44criminal justice? Because what there is
1:02:46is responsibility and not guilt. The
1:02:50way in which the assessment of the time
1:02:53of the measures is done is through
1:02:57guilt, but what is provided is a
1:02:59responsibility. Let's remember that
1:03:04guilt responds to an age condition that
1:03:07is from 18 years old to have the full
1:03:09exercise of one's rights. And having
1:03:12the plan to exercise one's rights means
1:03:14that one already has the capacity for
1:03:16enjoyment and the capacity to exercise.
1:03:18That is why he understands the effects
1:03:21of his decision. In the case of
1:03:23adolescents, not yet. That means that
1:03:26any conduct classified as a crime
1:03:28committed by a minor does not make him
1:03:30guilty. Okay. No, no, it does not make
1:03:32him responsible. It does not make him
1:03:34guilty. Why do you set a limit of 7
1:03:36years? No, it is 5 years. What do you
1:03:40mean seven? Let's see if I
1:03:41misunderstood. Why do you set a limit
1:03:43of 7 years and up and if he is younger,
1:03:49he does not authorize it. That is in
1:03:51Irish family law, I do not know if that
1:03:53is its aim. In criminal law there's no
1:03:55such age, right? The Constitution
1:03:57states that a training measure can be
1:03:59established for anyone over 14. Uh, it
1:04:01will be possible, Sergio says, the
1:04:03training measure can be applied until
1:04:06the age of 15 or 14, starting at 14.
1:04:10Sergio, starting at 14 it will be
1:04:12possible, I mean, no, it is not
1:04:14mandatory. Yes, it will be possible,
1:04:18taking into account the formalities of
1:04:21a boy or girl. Oh, I lost it. When the
1:04:24child turns 18, it is still pending.
1:04:26The sentence can be changed. No, it
1:04:27cannot be changed. And no, remember
1:04:30that Jessica, there is no sentence for
1:04:33adolescents, what there are are
1:04:35measures and even when the child turns
1:04:3718, if the time for the measures has
1:04:39not concluded, it has to continue. Why
1:04:44did he say that for adults it is 12?
1:04:46Because I already explained the issue
1:04:49of Noemí's guilt, what are the effects
1:04:52that the adult judge without
1:04:54specialization would have, well, it
1:04:56will depend, right? I believe that it
1:05:00is not just him, but also the actions,
1:05:03because it is one thing to have the
1:05:06knowledge that he does not have the
1:05:08competence and another thing to have
1:05:11the competence and continue acting. Two
1:05:15different things. That's how I see it.
1:05:18Then, Carlos Vázquez, what is your
1:05:20opinion regarding the
1:05:21>> collective feeling of the system's
1:05:27laxity? But it is not a...If we
1:05:29continue to see the system as a
1:05:31diminished penal system, we will
1:05:33continue to see it as a lax system. It
1:05:37is not a penal system, it is a
1:05:39differentiated system. I would agree
1:05:41that there should be a specific catalog
1:05:44of crimes under which the sentence
1:05:46would be as if it were an adult. No,
1:05:49Carlos, note that I do not agree with
1:05:51that. What I do agree with, and I said
1:05:53it a moment ago, is the possibility of
1:05:55increasing the time of the sanction.
1:05:58But not having a specific catalog. And
1:06:00it is not just because I am convinced
1:06:02that it is not the most appropriate,
1:06:04but because we will also be violating
1:06:06the content of the convention. Carlos,
1:06:08it's not just a matter of legal
1:06:10reflection and analysis, but also a
1:06:13matter of what I've experienced and
1:06:18seen the system achieve, because the
1:06:21system's achievements are impressive.
1:06:23I'll give you an example. In Yucatan.
1:06:25I'll give you a year, the year before I
1:06:30was a magistrate, when I was deputy
1:06:31prosecutor specializing in juvenile
1:06:32justice, which was until the year 2000.
1:06:36In 2009, because I'm talking about the
1:06:43system, we had 10 adolescents with
1:06:46mixed measures, that is, non-custodial
1:06:49measures during the week and custodial
1:06:52measures during the weekend. None of
1:06:55those 10 adolescents ran away. They
1:06:59were given money to leave early on
1:07:02Monday to go to school or work or their
1:07:04workshop and on Friday they returned at
1:07:076 in the evening. None ever ran away,
1:07:10with no guards, with nothing. So, the
1:07:13system is effective, yes, but the
1:07:15content of the law must be applied,
1:07:17because if we have a system that has a
1:07:22law and a law that is not being
1:07:23complied with, then we are going to see
1:07:25this type of thing. In other words, I
1:07:28want to make it clear that the system
1:07:30has not been adapted as it should be.
1:07:33We have the halfway houses, we have
1:07:36these foster homes and none of that has
1:07:39been implemented because there have
1:07:41been no resources invested to make the
1:07:44system work as the law states. The
1:07:49abbreviated procedure is an alternative
1:07:51way out for the abbreviated procedure,
1:07:52Abelino, it is not contemplated in the
1:07:54national law. I have insisted, I said
1:07:59it the first time, that the abbreviated
1:08:01procedure must be adapted to the
1:08:03purpose of the system. The abbreviated
1:08:07procedure is established in the
1:08:08National Code. If we didn't include it
1:08:11in the national law, it's because they
1:08:13didn't want it to be in the national
1:08:15law, because if we had wanted to
1:08:17include it in the national law, we
1:08:19would have given it the specific
1:08:21features that the system requires, and
1:08:23we didn't. Parents can have access to
1:08:26the file. Yes, of course they can have
1:08:28access to the file. Of course they can.
1:08:31What factors should the judge assess to
1:08:33decide whether the adolescent faces
1:08:35teachers 'freedom? The specific
1:08:38features of the adolescent, such as
1:08:39what factors they are studying or not
1:08:41studying. I'll give you an example so
1:08:43that it can be mixed, not so that they
1:08:45are not with non-custodial measures.
1:08:48For it to be mixed, it is a person who
1:08:51has just taken an exam to enter the
1:08:53medical school, of the autonomous
1:08:55school, of any state. And in the
1:08:58autonomous schools of medicine, they
1:09:00have an impressive line. They present
1:09:035,000 like here and 300 get in. So, if
1:09:08this teenager was admitted to study,
1:09:11well, I would simply tell them: without
1:09:13you being judges, make an assessment of
1:09:16what benefits the teenager and society
1:09:19the most, because it's not just the
1:09:22teenager, it benefits them if we don't
1:09:24let them go to study medicine. They're
1:09:29going to ask me, "And how is this going
1:09:32to affect society?" I've been out of
1:09:35the judiciary for 4 years now. I have a
1:09:39student right now that I had when I was
1:09:43a magistrate in 2000-21, if I'm not
1:09:51mistaken, 22. I graduated in 21 and
1:09:53he's one of the best students on the
1:09:55right. One of the best students. What
1:10:01was done with him while he was under
1:10:03deprivation of liberty? He was
1:10:05encouraged to continue studying high
1:10:07school. In fact, there was an agreement
1:10:10with the Autonomous University of
1:10:11Yucatan so that they could study online
1:10:13. So, they continued to advance. So, I
1:10:16would reason that way. Esteemed
1:10:19magistrate, do you think the law for
1:10:21adolescents should be reformed? This is
1:10:24based on the fact that the change
1:10:25handled, well, I think I already
1:10:27answered that. I said that what needs
1:10:29to be done is to think about complying
1:10:30with the continuum of the law.
1:10:32Obligation 131 of the MP. They already
1:10:34answered me, it was not 130, it is 131.
1:10:37Opportunity criterion 128, not in 131
1:10:41or 130 or so. The differentiated
1:10:44process is not unfair when the
1:10:45adolescent is aware. Well, Karina,
1:10:51Corina, Corina Carlene Basulto, well, I
1:10:55think we could not qualify it as unfair
1:10:59. I think we should qualify it with the
1:11:06differentiated and nothing else. What
1:11:11do I mean? I mean that if I go to a
1:11:17philosophical explanation, well, whose
1:11:24responsibility is it to provide society
1:11:27with job opportunities, living
1:11:30conditions, uh, whose responsibility is
1:11:34it to generate, uh, the right to
1:11:37education and and can I follow all that
1:11:40? The State, if you do a review,
1:11:44unfortunately I can't tell you where
1:11:47you can find the statistics that we are
1:11:50obligated to and that we are not
1:11:52complying with; you will realize that,
1:11:55of the volume of adolescents that enter
1:11:57the system and are sentenced, 92%of its
1:12:00adolescents have unclear communication
1:12:03with their parents. In other words,
1:12:06they do not tell their parents what
1:12:08they should tell them. If I were to
1:12:11look at another statistic and tell you
1:12:16in relation to love, 85%of these
1:12:20adolescents do not feel that emotion
1:12:23from their parents for them, in other
1:12:26words, they feel a lack of love, and I
1:12:29could go on. So, I would ask you and I
1:12:33return the question to you. Do you
1:12:35think it is fair that things are this
1:12:37way for them when they are in a
1:12:38developmental process? So, perhaps your
1:12:42answer would be, well, then if there
1:12:44are parents who should not have
1:12:46children, why doesn't the State take
1:12:48responsibility? Well, then, why don't
1:12:52we make the State fulfill its
1:12:55responsibility to report on the effects
1:12:58of marriage, which are not mandatory?
1:13:02Because you can get married and if you
1:13:04don't want to have children, you should
1:13:06have the knowledge not to have them,
1:13:07but you should also have the knowledge
1:13:09of what your obligations are when you
1:13:11have a child. So, we would have to say
1:13:17that there is an age at which the State
1:13:20has to provide, and I'll give you the
1:13:23example of what is constitutionally
1:13:25recognized as Mexicans and what is
1:13:28recognized as citizens, starting there
1:13:31where there are rules, because we are
1:13:34all Mexicans, but not all of us who are
1:13:37in the country are citizens, and not
1:13:43because I want it to be that way, but
1:13:45because the Constitution says so. And
1:13:47the first requirement to be a citizen
1:13:51is to be 18 years old. Therefore, there
1:13:55has to be a parameter, as has always
1:13:58existed, which during the time of the
1:14:01Greeks and later the Romans was 12 or
1:14:0313 years old to start giving them
1:14:06responsibility. There is just one small
1:14:09detail. At that time, the maximum life
1:14:13expectancy was 30 to 35 years old. And
1:14:20if you don't believe me, well, let's
1:14:22just bring Alexander the Great back to
1:14:25life, who, if I'm not mistaken, died at
1:14:2735. Today, life expectancy is much
1:14:29lower. So, we need to have a space
1:14:34linked to biological studies and
1:14:39opinions that tell us that growth is up
1:14:44to 24 years of age. And don't get mad
1:14:49at me, but what I would propose is that
1:14:52the age of criminal responsibility be
1:14:54set at 24 and that we remove the
1:14:59comprehensive criminal justice system
1:15:02for adolescents between 12 and 14 and
1:15:05start from 14 to 24. But we need to
1:15:09strengthen the preventive aspect, we
1:15:11need to strengthen the family. So these
1:15:15are things that would be worth
1:15:18analyzing because responding to social
1:15:20demands due to the incapacity of some,
1:15:23I won't say all, authorities is easy
1:15:30and we can't continue like this. We
1:15:32need to respond to the authorities.
1:15:35Then there are regulatory
1:15:36inconsistencies in the statute of
1:15:38limitations for crimes. Oh, there it is
1:15:41. Where is it? No, no, there are no
1:15:45inconsistencies. There is a
1:15:47proportionality of the expiration.
1:15:51Where is it? I already lost it. No,
1:15:57there are no inconsistencies. It is
1:16:00adapted to their age. In this case,
1:16:03where? In the case that an adult is
1:16:06reported, I already lost it too. If
1:16:10during the criminal process there is
1:16:12doubt about the interpretation of the
1:16:14application, again applicable, if there
1:16:16is doubt regarding here, Joseline de la
1:16:18Cruz, at age, you have to consider age,
1:16:20that is, if I appear, I want to be,
1:16:22right? 16 years old, well, what you
1:16:25have to do because you do not have my
1:16:27certificate is to think that I am 13,
1:16:30right? It would be great, but no. For
1:16:33them, yes. If you are looking at him
1:16:36and he looks like he is 16, what you
1:16:39have to do is put him in the previous
1:16:41age group, that is, in the group from
1:16:4312 to less than 14. What happens when a
1:16:46teenager is...look, is it that you move
1:16:48to me, magistrate, to ensure that this
1:16:51constitutionally differentiated system
1:16:53does not remain a mere declaration of
1:16:55principles? What would you say is the
1:16:58most frequent mistake that we defense
1:17:00attorneys make when raising these
1:17:01issues? I believe that it is not so
1:17:04much in proposing strategies, my
1:17:06esteemed...I don't know if that is your
1:17:08last name and excuse me, but that's
1:17:10what he says, it does not lie there in
1:17:12the strategy, it lies in the ignorance
1:17:15of the purpose of the system. Note that
1:17:18up to this point there is a case that
1:17:20has been going on for 10 years, 10
1:17:22years that has not resulted in a
1:17:24sentence. Each action, each hearing,
1:17:35each decision from the investigation
1:17:38stage in the Public Ministry until it
1:17:42went to trial, were used as many times
1:17:46as there were judicial and
1:17:48jurisdictional actions and decisions to
1:17:52promote not only the appeal, but the
1:17:56protection. The thing is that at this
1:18:02point, at how old is this person? I
1:18:05think he's 27 years old. What can be
1:18:08done with him? Not much. How are the
1:18:12principles of the paralegal justice
1:18:14system applied in daily practice? We're
1:18:16going to get into that now, Ángel
1:18:17Gabriel. We have to keep in mind that
1:18:20one must be aware of the
1:18:21particularities, especially of age,
1:18:24Ángel Gabriel, because adolescents,
1:18:27girls, boys, adolescents, I'm going to
1:18:29speak in general, do not know what
1:18:32their rights are. So, one is the one
1:18:35who has the obligation to make them
1:18:37valid, regardless of the position in
1:18:38which we find ourselves. If we are
1:18:41talking about a legal advisor, if we
1:18:44are talking about a defender or a
1:18:46family advisor, we have to have
1:18:48knowledge of what rights they have, the
1:18:51principles, well, they will guide you
1:18:53precisely to fulfill your rights.
1:18:56Article 26. M can apply this criterion.
1:19:09There I think I was cut off from the
1:19:12beginning of the investigation file, so
1:19:14when the order is issued, if you're
1:19:16talking about the exits in 256 in
1:19:25adolescents, it also changes. Uh, if
1:19:27we're talking about the use of
1:19:30mechanisms, it also changes, it's not
1:19:32the same as in adults. This slips my
1:19:37mind. And if they follow up, yes, they
1:19:38do. Yes, yes, they do. Well, even when
1:19:42I was there, well, they did. I don't
1:19:45know if you remember that here we have
1:19:48a very complex issue in the field of
1:19:54research as well as in public safety
1:19:57and also in the jurisdictional bodies
1:20:01of the constant and permanent changes
1:20:05of people. And we enter a space of
1:20:11trial and error. When they have already
1:20:13learned well, they are left out of the
1:20:15institutions. Then comes the relearning
1:20:18. So, how are things right now? No, I
1:20:21couldn't tell you that. There are many
1:20:23messages coming in. What would happen
1:20:25when different groups converge in a
1:20:27minor, specifically in the case of
1:20:29migrants? In what way? We will see that
1:20:31there. Intervention is possible to
1:20:32safeguard the best interests. What
1:20:34would happen when different groups
1:20:37converge? That part bothers me.
1:20:41Differentiated groups converge in a
1:20:43minor. Specifically in the case of
1:20:46migrants. What is it? In the case of...
1:20:48I mean, it doesn't make a difference.
1:20:49If the migrant, uh, doesn't make a
1:20:52difference. Rights and principles have
1:20:55to be complied with, it doesn't make a
1:20:57difference. I don't know if that's the
1:21:01question. Rules for determining
1:21:03sanction measures. 145. Yes, but it
1:21:06mentions 130. There are powers for the
1:21:08Public Prosecutor's Office. There are
1:21:12inconsistencies. Come on, it moved. Can
1:21:15a judge bind without proving
1:21:17participation? Well, at that moment,
1:21:21remember that this is minimal data,
1:21:23there is no refined data. That will be
1:21:30given until the trial. The judge is
1:21:34guided by the principles of experience
1:21:37to decide on the link, depending on the
1:21:39approach of the Public Prosecutor's
1:21:41Office, the data available, and the
1:21:44defense's approaches. If there is no
1:21:47further explanation, there is no need
1:21:49for further explanation. In the
1:21:51procedural scenario of co-authorship
1:21:53between adults, the question is, what
1:21:54is the ordinary control of the adult
1:21:56dictates? Nothing. They go through
1:22:00separate cases. There it will depend on
1:22:03what was said to the adults or what was
1:22:05said to the adolescents. What you
1:22:08cannot do without knowledge, properly
1:22:10explained to the parents, the
1:22:13adolescent, and the attorney general,
1:22:15is to bring the adolescent to the adult
1:22:18case as a witness. But since they go
1:22:23through separate cases, if you ask me
1:22:25as a private attorney, what I would do
1:22:27is see if there is anything that I can
1:22:29use. If there is something that I can
1:22:32use in the other case, then I will do
1:22:33everything possible to use it. But if
1:22:38they do not link it to the adult, it
1:22:40must be due to their circumstances or
1:22:42if they do not link it to the teacher,
1:22:44the answer would be the same. Well,
1:22:47let's continue to finish, there are
1:22:50many questions. And we are heading to,
1:22:55I think, it. Okay. Rights. We have to
1:23:12understand what they were asking me
1:23:16about regarding the principle of best
1:23:20interests. The principle of best
1:23:24interests is a cross-cutting axis of
1:23:26rights that covers everything from the
1:23:29rights of adults to the rights of
1:23:31adolescents, with the difference that
1:23:33in the case of adolescents, it also has
1:23:35the entire international legal
1:23:41framework to promote its application
1:23:43and fulfill their rights. What do we
1:23:46need to look at? Identify relevant
1:23:48contexts, detect barriers to access to
1:23:51justice, distinguishability,
1:23:52discrimination, apply the principle of
1:23:55best interests in progressive autonomy,
1:23:57guarantee effective participation,
1:23:59identify reasonable adjustments,
1:24:01incorporate an intercultural
1:24:03perspective. You were asking me about
1:24:05the issue of migrants. It is obvious
1:24:08and logical that we do not have
1:24:10migration from other latitudes other
1:24:12than the south of the continent. And
1:24:16well, there are a number of cultures
1:24:18and different languages. No, I am not
1:24:22specifically talking about Spanish. For
1:24:24example, in the peninsula we have Mayan
1:24:26, in Guatemala there is Mayle. So these
1:24:29are things that we have to take into
1:24:30account when it comes to the issue of
1:24:32rights. What does it mean to be in
1:24:34contact with the judicial system? Well,
1:24:37a girl, boy, or adolescent can be a
1:24:40victim, a defendant, a witness, and
1:24:42depending on any of the positions they
1:24:45are assigned, well, they still have
1:24:47rights. It doesn't matter if they are a
1:24:51defendant or a victim; they are
1:24:53guardians and rights holders. The
1:24:57paradigm shift, as I have already
1:24:58explained, is a scenario that we could
1:25:00understand through a question, right?
1:25:03What should we do for this minor? How
1:25:06does comprehensive protection change?
1:25:08What rights does this girl, boy, or
1:25:09teacher have? And what should be done?
1:25:11What should the State do to guarantee
1:25:13them? There is a big difference. What
1:25:17is the fundamental transformation? We
1:25:18are no longer talking about a
1:25:20protective object. Remember that I
1:25:23explained to you that in the past we
1:25:26were in the scheme in which we thought,
1:25:28the State made us think, that girls,
1:25:31boys, and adolescents were objects of
1:25:34protection and that it was solely and
1:25:36exclusively up to the parents to make
1:25:39particular, personal, and general
1:25:41decisions about them. Today, that is
1:25:45not the case. The state has a role to
1:25:47play, it can enter the home. I mean,
1:25:51I'm saying it literally, but it's not
1:25:53that the state enters the home, but
1:25:55rather that the education of an
1:25:58adolescent through that which is
1:26:00prohibited by law, because the state
1:26:02has the obligation to enter. We're no
1:26:06longer talking about an object of
1:26:07protection, as I said, we're talking
1:26:09about a person who is entitled to
1:26:10rights and who has reinforced
1:26:11protection. The context matters, right?
1:26:16The person who is the context, in what
1:26:18circumstances do they live? Barriers,
1:26:20what prevents them from exercising
1:26:21their rights? Rights. What rights are
1:26:24compromised? For example, a 10-year-old
1:26:27girl has difficulty communicating.
1:26:30Comprehensive protection requires
1:26:32asking, does she have a disability?
1:26:35Does she speak Spanish? Are she afraid?
1:26:38Are she being influenced? The famous
1:26:42parental alienation, which is not only
1:26:44from the father or not only from the
1:26:46mother, it can be from the grandparent,
1:26:48understands what is happening, how can
1:26:50they be heard, they need specialized
1:26:53support. Well, that transforms the
1:26:56performance, uh, not only judicial as I
1:26:58already said, but it transforms it in
1:27:01all the moments and positions that we
1:27:04have to work. What are the contexts?
1:27:07Child labor, migration, indigenous
1:27:09peoples and communities, disability.
1:27:11What are the tools? Intersectionality.
1:27:15That is to say, I have just explained
1:27:17that we have at the same level the
1:27:19issue related to human rights as the
1:27:21specific rights for all girls and
1:27:23adolescents and we also have an entire
1:27:26international corpus that must be
1:27:28considered when making any decision
1:27:30with all girls, boys, and adolescents.
1:27:33First context, child labor. You can't
1:27:38just ask, do they work, why do they
1:27:40work, since what age? Where and for
1:27:42whom? Do they continue studying, how
1:27:44many hours do they work, is there
1:27:45exploitation or violence? Remember that
1:27:47yes, they can work, but it is from the
1:27:49age of 16; we have very clear in the
1:27:51labor law what the conditions are for
1:27:53them to be able to have that work
1:27:55activity. Child labor, compromised
1:27:58rights. Why? Because, well, education,
1:28:00health, or comprehensive development
1:28:02cannot be affected. She has to have
1:28:05rest, she has to have a family life,
1:28:07protection against exploitation,
1:28:10participation, and well, that scenario
1:28:12of course warrants a legal analysis to
1:28:15define the reasons for the existence of
1:28:18that work. In this case, she is
1:28:22responsible because she works. Yes, we
1:28:24can say that she is a responsible
1:28:26person, which is admirable because when
1:28:28I was her age I did the same thing.
1:28:31Okay. A teenager, 15 years old, works
1:28:33and contributes money to the home. That
1:28:35would be the answer we would give.
1:28:37Father is responsible, mother dropped
1:28:39out of school because she needed to
1:28:41work. What question should we ask? What
1:28:43rights are compromised by the
1:28:45conditions in which she works? Context
1:28:48two, children, migrant children. It is
1:28:52not just about asking if she has
1:28:53documents, we have to ask what
1:28:55circumstances of human mobility
1:28:57surround the girl or what rights may be
1:28:59compromised. We have to consider
1:29:02accompaniment, family, language,
1:29:03country of origin, violence,
1:29:05trafficking, displacement, and
1:29:06comprehensive protection. Presence does
1:29:11not mean participation, because we can
1:29:13have an adolescent who appears before
1:29:14the authority and partially understands
1:29:16Spanish. We can say that she
1:29:19effectively participated because she
1:29:22was physically there. Well,
1:29:24participation implies conditions for
1:29:26understanding, communicating,
1:29:28expressing oneself, and being heard.
1:29:32Context three, indigenous peoples and
1:29:34communities. Intercultural perspective.
1:29:36It is not about adapting the indigenous
1:29:38person to the judicial system. It is
1:29:41about ensuring that judicial action
1:29:44recognizes cultural and linguistic
1:29:47diversity and guarantees substantive
1:29:49equality. We have worked so hard to
1:29:53bring this about that we cannot ignore
1:29:55this idea. Essential questions. Do you
1:29:58identify as a member of an indigenous
1:30:00people? What is your language? Do you
1:30:02understand Spanish? Do you need an
1:30:04interpreter? Does your family
1:30:05understand the procedure? Is there
1:30:07community unity? Are traditional
1:30:10authorities involved? Are there
1:30:12relevant cultural practices? Well, an
1:30:15interpreter can be the condition that
1:30:17makes it possible to exercise a right.
1:30:21Remember that there is a big difference
1:30:22between an interpreter and a translator
1:30:24. A huge difference. Context four,
1:30:27disability from the medical model to
1:30:30the social model. Don't just ask what
1:30:34disability you have; you have to ask
1:30:36what barriers you encounter to
1:30:38participating on equal terms. Physical,
1:30:42communicational, cognitive, attitudinal
1:30:45, technological, and procedural
1:30:46barriers. Eliminate or reduce barriers
1:30:50to also guarantee effective
1:30:52participation. Audience. Adolescents
1:30:56with intellectual disabilities
1:30:57participate in a hearing. Answers yes,
1:30:59no, I don't know. Incorrect question,
1:31:01why doesn't he cooperate? Correct
1:31:04question, what should we modify to know
1:31:06if he really understood? That is what
1:31:10we have to visualize. Intersectionality
1:31:13. Contexts do not appear isolated. A
1:31:17teenager can be simultaneously
1:31:19indigenous, migrant, victim of violence
1:31:21, a person with a disability, living in
1:31:23poverty and out of school. Barriers can
1:31:27accumulate and reinforce each other.
1:31:31Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes. I
1:31:37will give some time, we are finishing
1:31:40even earlier so that if you help us and
1:31:43someone can participate orally, we will
1:31:47gladly answer any questions we have. We
1:31:59appreciate the contributions and
1:32:02experiences shared by our speaker.
1:32:05Continuing, we will proceed with the
1:32:06question and answer period. I do not
1:32:08know if anyone would like to ask any
1:32:09questions here in the auditorium.
1:32:23>> Thank you.
1:32:24>> Thank you. Good afternoon. Once again,
1:32:26yours truly, Roberto Vázquez. My
1:32:30question is, Your Excellency, if the
1:32:31crime was committed while a minor and
1:32:33during the investigation the minor
1:32:35reaches the age of majority, the
1:32:37judicial process will be in accordance
1:32:39with the law of minors in the
1:32:40comprehensive system for adolescents or
1:32:42in accordance with the accusatory
1:32:44criminal justice system.
1:32:49>> If I understand correctly, you are
1:32:50talking about minors under 12, is that
1:32:52correct?
1:32:53>> Between 16 and 18. Let's
1:32:57>> see. The adolescent belongs to the age
1:33:00group of 16 to 18. Is that correct?
1:33:03>> Yes, that's correct.
1:33:05>> Okay. And the question is, then,
1:33:08>> if during the investigation the minor
1:33:10reaches the age of majority, he
1:33:14>> remains in that age group, that is, the
1:33:17scope of the law will not change.
1:33:21Indicate one, we have three age groups.
1:33:26Okay. But before that, we have an age
1:33:31group of 12 to under 18. If we go to
1:33:36what I am calling, which is not in the
1:33:38law, which is a way of explaining
1:33:46another segment, and this one that was
1:33:49here, I moved on to the adult segment.
1:33:54When the process begins, it will
1:33:56continue to be within the adolescent
1:33:58segment. So, the same thing occurs
1:34:01within the group of those three
1:34:03adolescent segments. What do I mean? I
1:34:06mean that if it is in age group one,
1:34:09but the process begins when it is in
1:34:12age group three, no. The process will
1:34:14be carried out according to age group
1:34:16one. I don't know if that is the answer
1:34:19and I don't want to talk more so as not
1:34:20to confuse you. Vázquez. Roberto
1:34:22Vázquez, I think you told me.
1:34:24>> Yes, that answers it. Thank you.
1:34:27>> Thank you very much, Magistrate. I
1:34:28don't know if anyone else wants to ask
1:34:30any questions. I have a question, Your
1:34:39Excellency Magistrate. Uh, when you
1:34:43referred to the guiding principles set
1:34:46forth in Article 20 of the Constitution
1:34:48, you mentioned among them what
1:34:50publicity is. My question is whether
1:34:54this guiding principle also applies to
1:34:56justice for adolescents, let's say, in
1:34:59the hearing system. Okay, I'm going to
1:35:04ask myself a question to answer it. I
1:35:07have two principles in the
1:35:09comprehensive criminal justice system
1:35:11for adolescents. I have the principle
1:35:14of publicity as the guiding principle
1:35:16of the accusatory system and I have the
1:35:19principle within criminal justice for
1:35:21adolescents, which is that of privacy.
1:35:25In that sense, publicity does not lose
1:35:30its particularities and characteristics
1:35:33due to the fact that it does not comply
1:35:36with one of the things that does happen
1:35:40in adults, which is that anyone can
1:35:43attend the hearing. Although it is true
1:35:47that not just anyone can attend in
1:35:50adolescents and in any case, if a
1:35:52person is going to attend, they could
1:35:54attend if the adolescent, having been
1:35:57duly informed and explained the matter,
1:35:59accepts that there will be an audience
1:36:02between one or more people. But just
1:36:07because the public is denied access or
1:36:10is not present at the hearing, it does
1:36:12not lose the principle of publicity,
1:36:15since this principle is defined by
1:36:17meeting several different
1:36:19characteristics. One of them has to do
1:36:22with the presence and attendance of the
1:36:24parties in the proceedings and the
1:36:25judge. And in the case of hearings in
1:36:30criminal justice for adolescents, the
1:36:31judge will always be present and the
1:36:33parties in the proceedings and the
1:36:35adolescent will always be accompanied
1:36:37by their parents. That is why the
1:36:40principle of publicity is not violated.
1:36:43Additionally, the hearings, the
1:36:46hearings use the same technical method
1:36:49required by the Constitution, which is
1:36:55recording. In this case, it is audio
1:36:58and video. The Constitution doesn't
1:37:00specify video or audio, but it does
1:37:02make it serious. In this case, we have
1:37:05adapted the idea that it should be
1:37:08video recording. So, we have the video
1:37:10recording. So, the only thing that does
1:37:12not happen is the presence of the
1:37:16public, but it does not happen because
1:37:19the adolescent has that principle and
1:37:22that right, which is the principle of
1:37:25the right to privacy. I don't know if
1:37:27that answers your question.
1:37:29>> Yes, thank you very much.
1:37:32>> Thank you very much, magistrate. I
1:37:34don't know if anyone else has any
1:37:35questions. Okay.
1:37:39>> Yes. Microphone on this.
1:37:50>> Hello, good afternoon. Rut Montemayor.
1:37:55With your permission, magistrate, I
1:37:56wanted to ask a question. When talking
1:37:58about the educational plan, I just want
1:38:01to know if I was right. You are talking
1:38:03about the plan, oh, sorry,
1:38:07individualized activities or execution
1:38:09of the measure, as well as the
1:38:11individualized execution plan. And if
1:38:14so, I would like to ask you at what
1:38:16point are the individualized plan,
1:38:18sorry, the individualized activities
1:38:20plan and the individualized execution
1:38:22plan prepared? Which authority is
1:38:24responsible for preparing them and what
1:38:26is their role within the adolescent's
1:38:28social reintegration process?
1:38:30>> We are going to spend 4 hours here, but
1:38:32we are going to answer. Okay? There are
1:38:37three things. We are going to talk
1:38:38about all three things. First, help me
1:38:40if you have the law there and if you
1:38:42would do me a great favor and look up
1:38:45article 130. While I explain the
1:38:48individualized plan, I believe it is
1:38:50called the treatment plan and the
1:38:53individualized execution plan, the
1:38:55individualized activities plan and the
1:38:58individualized execution plan. Those
1:39:01two correspond to the jurisdictional
1:39:04stage. Okay. In the meantime, keep
1:39:06looking for article 130.
1:39:09>> Article 130. The individualized
1:39:12activities plan is imposed from the
1:39:15moment the person is linked, but it
1:39:18only applies to those who are placed
1:39:22under preventive detention. The
1:39:28individualized activities plan. Who is
1:39:32in charge? Well, the body responsible
1:39:35for applying restrictive measures. Okay
1:39:39? In the case of the second one, which
1:39:42is the individualized execution plan,
1:39:44it is from the moment the sentence is
1:39:46issued; 10 days are given for it to be
1:39:49drawn up, a hearing is opened and the
1:39:51adolescent is informed so that it can
1:39:53be defined based on the principle of
1:39:56contradiction between the Public
1:39:58Prosecutor's Office and the Defense, to
1:40:00draw up what the individualized
1:40:02execution plan will be that will begin
1:40:04to be fulfilled from the moment it is
1:40:07approved by the judge. And then we have
1:40:11the plan, it is not a plan, it is
1:40:14called, it is in 130, in the second
1:40:16paragraph, if I am not mistaken, the
1:40:19Public Prosecutor's Office, having the
1:40:22adolescent under its care, in its
1:40:25custody, may, it says 130. I just can't
1:40:28>> find it. Let's see,
1:40:33>> if you don't have it, we'll find it now
1:40:34. 130 or 230, but there it is, it is
1:40:38there. Let's see, we'll find it now. I
1:41:00can't find it, magistrate. Excuse me.
1:41:04We already found it. You can't lose it
1:41:07because it has to be in the law, it has
1:41:08to be in the law. We found it now
1:41:12because I'm curious. My German cousin
1:41:18came to me right now on 27/26. You
1:41:23already
1:41:24>> found it
1:41:25>> twice.
1:41:29>> Yes, a colleague already found it. I'm
1:41:31going to pass the microphone to him.
1:41:33>> Oh, perfect. Great. Let's see what he
1:41:36says.
1:41:37>> Thank you. He just confirmed the
1:41:38National Law on the Comprehensive
1:41:40Justice System for Adolescents. Uh,
1:41:42article 130, initial hearing. In cases
1:41:46of people,
1:41:48>> second paragraph, second paragraph,
1:41:49please. There is
1:41:51>> no second paragraph.
1:41:53>> How is it going to be then? If it's
1:41:54131.
1:41:55>> 131. Yes. Deadlines for complementary
1:41:58investigation.
1:41:59>> Oh, okay. Let's see what it says
1:42:03>> in the second paragraph. The judge at
1:42:05the hearing will set the closing date
1:42:06of the term or, where appropriate, the
1:42:08extension of the term. No, it's not. No
1:42:12,
1:42:12>> well, I'm wrong. It's not that one.
1:42:15Let's see,
1:42:16>> intermediate
1:42:17>> 130. It's not 230. I tried to find here
1:42:22the
1:42:22>> execution response
1:42:27>> 30. Sentence. Here we have reached a
1:42:33general provision, oral proceedings 140
1:42:35, 139, evidentiary proceedings 138, the
1:42:49proceedings, the victim, the injured
1:42:52party, the content of the accusation
1:42:59>> 187,
1:43:00>> yes,
1:43:01>> which of the individualized execution
1:43:04plan. It is
1:43:05>> not that it is a power that the Public
1:43:06Prosecutor's Office has. It has to be
1:43:08before. It has to
1:43:10>> be before. 130, initial hearing 129.
1:43:16And here I am going to put it in plain
1:43:17sight. I am not telling you that the
1:43:19German won this time. Here I am going
1:43:23to put it in plain sight. Here it is to
1:43:25answer you. Article 129. If there are
1:43:32public prosecutors here, they will let
1:43:38them do it, I warn you, they will not
1:43:40let them, but they accept that here it
1:43:43says, "When the Public Prosecutor's
1:43:46Office has the adolescent at its
1:43:48disposal, it will evaluate whether it
1:43:51is appropriate to decree freedom." Okay
1:43:54. Issue a criterion of opportunity.
1:44:00Okay. Second thing. Third, or it says
1:44:04to refer the adolescent to an
1:44:06educational program. Have you seen it?
1:44:09There it is. Educational program. 129
1:44:15paragraph. Second. There it is. Three
1:44:24different things. An individualized
1:44:28activity plan only for those who are
1:44:30currently subject to a preventive
1:44:32detention order. Okay, I was going to
1:44:40give you my number, but I see that the
1:44:46chat won't let me, I don't know why.
1:44:53Well, it wouldn't let me or I can't use
1:44:56it. The second individualized execution
1:45:01plan. That is once the trial has
1:45:04concluded and the person responsible
1:45:06for the act has been found and the
1:45:08existence of the act has been
1:45:10determined. And the last one, this one
1:45:15is a faculty of the Public Prosecutor's
1:45:18Office called educational. Okay. I
1:45:24don't know if that answers the question
1:45:26, lada. Yes, thank you very much.
1:45:34>> Yes, yes, thank you very much. Is there
1:45:37anything else or anyone else? Yes,
1:45:39there are a lot of messages. Yes, I saw
1:45:41them. I'll dictate my number to whoever
1:45:44wants it. 9991 29 5091. They will ask
1:45:51me, "Why give your number like that?"
1:45:53If you're on Facebook. Imagine the
1:45:55national and international gossip mill
1:45:59we have. 999 91 29 50 91. There are 17
1:46:09people with their hands up. I don't
1:46:11know if it's for questions.
1:46:13>> Could you repeat that, magistrate,
1:46:14please?
1:46:16>> Nothing. Okay, well if there's nothing,
1:46:18I think we have another day to see each
1:46:21other. I hope you'll
1:46:24>> excuse me for being of interest.
1:46:25>> Ask for your phone number, please.
1:46:28>> 9991.
1:46:30>> Yes,
1:46:31>> my number, because I can't send you my
1:46:32phone number, sir. There's no virtual
1:46:34way. Maybe a photo. 999 91 29 50 91.
1:46:42>> Very well, thank you very much. Is
1:46:47there another question over there? I
1:47:04think so, right? Here's a question for
1:47:07you, magistrate.
1:47:13>> Uh, magistrate, I have a concern, I
1:47:16want to share it. Uh, in the talk you
1:47:21were giving us, you mentioned that many
1:47:25of the young people who break the law
1:47:32do so because they have some kind of
1:47:34family disaffection. But what happens
1:47:39to those young people who don't? that
1:47:44parents have been given everything, but
1:47:47that love has been confused to the
1:47:50point, for example, an example, this,
1:47:58my question would be, is the annex
1:48:01better? Is it better than reasoned
1:48:04discipline? As a background, a teenager
1:48:07is arrested for driving without license
1:48:09plates. He is released, he is returned
1:48:14to his parents. The undisciplined
1:48:19teenager, and due to the fine line
1:48:22between family violence, child abuse
1:48:26and the principle of the best interests
1:48:29of the minor, the parents do not apply
1:48:33reasonable discipline, he is arrested
1:48:37again, so he is finally annexed. So,
1:48:43with that comment at the end, the
1:48:46question is, is the annex better than
1:48:48reasoned discipline? Okay, I'm going to
1:48:52go through it step by step. I gave two
1:48:55indicators. I can't be irresponsible
1:48:59and say that this is the reason why we
1:49:01have teenagers in the justice system.
1:49:07What I tried to say and what I'm going
1:49:09to clarify at this time is that there
1:49:11are a series of indicators that we are
1:49:13not taking into consideration to
1:49:15realize what is happening with young
1:49:17people. We continue to educate young
1:49:22people with the same models and
1:49:24patterns that educated us. That's one.
1:49:31The second is that we also intend to
1:49:33prevent our children from going down
1:49:36the same path that we did, trying to
1:49:44avoid, well, all that space that caused
1:49:49us fatigue, pain, sadness, in short,
1:49:53habitualizing beyond what is necessary.
1:50:00That's what I meant with those two
1:50:01indicators, because there are more
1:50:03indicators. However, I don't consider
1:50:06them the entire reason why the
1:50:07following could happen. You mentioned
1:50:09something very important, counselor.
1:50:12The issue of behavior that has to do
1:50:21with what I was saying in the first
1:50:23module, behavior that is the result of
1:50:26education. What would be worth doing
1:50:30there is verifying whether the
1:50:32education of that adolescent has been
1:50:34correct and if it has not been correct,
1:50:37making reasonable adjustments ourselves
1:50:39, not waiting for them to go before an
1:50:42authority because it is possible to
1:50:44make that reasonable adjustment. In my
1:50:50experience, I can tell you that in most
1:50:53cases of adolescent issues, I have
1:50:56detected that the mistakes of parents
1:50:59are what have led to the decisions of
1:51:02their children, and those decisions are
1:51:05what have led them to be in the system.
1:51:10For example, you are from Nuevo Leon,
1:51:19>> in the State of Mexico, but I have been
1:51:21here for over 30 years. There is no
1:51:24>> problem. I ask you the question because
1:51:27perhaps it has not come to light
1:51:29publicly because it is not being
1:51:31reported, but right now there is a high
1:51:33rate of issues related to videos and
1:51:35images among young people who are part
1:51:38of the system. To provide you with an
1:51:44answer, I would ask the following: are
1:51:47we as parents truly addressing the
1:51:50problem, or are we not even aware that
1:51:54it exists? And I answer, we are not
1:51:57even aware. And when we find out, what
1:52:01we try to do is minimize the
1:52:03circumstance. But minimizing does not
1:52:07mean addressing it, but it also does
1:52:11not mean that as a result of that
1:52:14behavior we have to send them to a
1:52:17place where they are not educated. We
1:52:20are the ones responsible for educating
1:52:22them. So, the system addresses the
1:52:25issue once the behavior is irreversible
1:52:29and has fit the elements of the type
1:52:35into a crime, but that's the end of it.
1:52:40The time for correctional facilities
1:52:42and the Guardianship Council is over.
1:52:45Today, we have this system of
1:52:47guarantees. So, what we have to do is
1:52:50what I was saying a moment ago,
1:52:52strengthen the preventive part that the
1:52:54law requires of us, which is something
1:52:57we haven't done and that we need to do.
1:53:00So, it's not just a matter of those two
1:53:03indicators causing this. I always
1:53:06explain that in order to educate a
1:53:08person, we need values, principles,
1:53:13rules, limits, and love. There are five
1:53:19things. Listen, don't ask me right now
1:53:23how much you have to give to the young
1:53:25person you're caring for, because what
1:53:28you have to do with that young person
1:53:30is assess their situation, their
1:53:32particular personal, social, emotional,
1:53:35and family circumstances, in order to
1:53:37determine which of these is failing.
1:53:41Values, principles, rules, limits, and
1:53:44love. Values, principles, rules, limits
1:53:47, and love. And depending on each
1:53:50teenager, maybe one doesn't need love,
1:53:53but they do need rules. Or maybe they
1:53:56don't need love or rules, they need
1:53:58limits. Or maybe they don't need rules,
1:54:01limits or love, they need principles.
1:54:03So, we have to see what aspect they
1:54:06need. All based as a starting point on
1:54:11what Article 4, paragraph 11, of the
1:54:13Constitution says, which is the
1:54:15principle of the best interests, the
1:54:18right to food, health, education and
1:54:20healthy recreation. That's how I see it
1:54:24. I don't know if that answers your
1:54:27question. Yes, yes, Magistrate. The
1:54:32reason I shared this is because I had a
1:54:35proposal regarding teenagers and
1:54:38systems, intended for those who have
1:54:42been abandoned, lack parents, and find
1:54:45themselves all alone. So the state is
1:54:51looking for ways to support them in
1:54:54some way, but surprisingly, when I was
1:54:57with teenagers, I would sometimes see
1:55:01that when I was talking to them, when I
1:55:05got to know them better, they would
1:55:08tell me, "Well, my father can't tell me
1:55:13anything because I tell him to call the
1:55:15police and he can't forbid me to do
1:55:20something or stop giving me something
1:55:23that I want." So, those are small
1:55:26details, they are multifactorial, many
1:55:28factors that influence these cases, but
1:55:33, magistrate, I just wanted to comment
1:55:35on it and share it with my colleagues.
1:55:37Thank you.
1:55:38>> Thank you very much, right? Thank you
1:55:39very much. Thank you very much,
1:55:42magistrate. Due to time constraints, we
1:55:44are going to close the section for
1:55:47questions and answers. Well, magistrate
1:55:50, we thank you again for your valuable
1:55:51participation and your willingness to
1:55:53share your knowledge and experience
1:55:55with those who are part of this diploma
1:55:56course. On behalf of the Judicial
1:55:58Branch of the State of Nuevo León, we
1:56:00present a well-deserved award, which
1:56:02literally says: Diploma in updating
1:56:05criminal justice for adolescents. The
1:56:09Judicial Branch of the State of Nuevo
1:56:11León, through the Institute of the
1:56:13Judiciary, grants this recognition to
1:56:15Magistrate Santiago Oltamirano
1:56:16Escalante for his brilliant
1:56:17dissertation on the topic of principles
1:56:19and purposes of the specialized system
1:56:21of module 1, guiding principles of the
1:56:23criminal justice system for adolescents
1:56:25. Monterrey, Nuevo León, October 7,
1:56:282026. Signed by Professor José Antonio
1:56:30Gutiérrez Flores, General Director of
1:56:32the Institute of the Judiciary of the
1:56:34Judicial Branch of the State of Nuevo
1:56:36León. In this way, we conclude the
1:56:38session of the update diploma in
1:56:40criminal justice for adolescents. We
1:56:42thank everyone for their attendance and
1:56:45inform you that the next session will
1:56:47be held on October 14, 2026 at 4:00
1:56:49p.m., in which the topic of procedural
1:56:51subjects and jurisdictional competences
1:56:54will be addressed. Finally, we remind
1:56:56you of the importance of responding to
1:56:58the teacher's evaluation, as well as
1:57:00completing the synchronous activities
1:57:01available on the diploma microsite.
1:57:03Thank you very much for your
1:57:04participation and support. Have a great
1:57:06afternoon.

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