YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Did West Underestimate Iran? Dr. Abbas Milani & Tom Ginsburg Explain US-Iran Tensions | 4K

Did West Underestimate Iran? Dr. Abbas Milani & Tom Ginsburg Explain US-Iran Tensions | 4K — Transcript

by CRUX · 8,303 words · 1,558 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:01Well, thank you so much for coming, Dr.
0:04Milani. It's just an enormous honor for
0:06us. For those who've not read his work,
0:08I encourage you. It's
0:09It's not only the authoritative
0:11historian of modern Iran, but a
0:13beautiful writer and obviously a very
0:16humane person voice that comes through.
0:19So, it's great to have you here to help
0:20us unpack this. I actually want to start
0:22not with the current situation or even
0:24the history that leads up to it, but
0:26with you, with your life. Cuz I noticed
0:28in reading your memoir that we have
0:29something in common. You might not know.
0:31We were both in Berkeley in 1968.
0:34And I was exactly 1 year old. You were a
0:37student activist. You were in protest.
0:38We were probably at some of the same
0:40protests, me on my parents' shoulders
0:42and such. But I wonder if you could talk
0:44about what it was like to come from Iran
0:46to the Bay Area and what that experience
0:49meant for you as a young person. How did
0:51it change your perspective?
0:53>> Well, first of all, it's a great honor
0:54to be here, truly, and be in
0:56conversation with you.
0:58Um
0:59I have a great debt to the Chicago
1:03tradition of inquiry, free inquiry.
1:06Um
1:07I've translated actually the work of
1:09Kolakowski.
1:10The three volumes of Kolakowski's work,
1:13Main Currents of Marxism.
1:15And my then wife, 45 years ago,
1:18translated
1:19Saul Bellow's Herzog.
1:22So,
1:23I have lived in this atmosphere
1:25intellectually and benefited from it.
1:28I also thought that I've learned a lot
1:30from your father,
1:31but ChatGPT was lying.
1:34I thought his father was
1:36Carlo. Uh
1:38And it wasn't. I've learned a great deal
1:41from him.
1:43So, I I came to Berkeley
1:46as a 15-year-old.
1:48Uh 15 and a half to be exact.
1:51Uh and I came from a fairly protected
1:54atmosphere, sort of a bourgeois
1:57upbringing.
1:58Um I went a French school. Uh,
2:02at that time the only co-educational
2:04school, one of the only co-educational
2:06schools. Um, and uh, from there I was
2:10thrust into Berkeley, 1964. That's when
2:14I first came.
2:16My first entry into Berkeley uh, was
2:19when
2:20uh,
2:21Mario Savio was leading the student
2:25demonstrations. And to come from that
2:28atmosphere in Iran
2:30to this atmosphere
2:31and then 3 years later to see Mario
2:34Savio as a bus boy in a bar
2:37in Berkeley.
2:39It showed me aspects of America and
2:41aspects of what it means to live in a
2:43democratic society, in a free society.
2:46That just changed me drastically and
2:49very soon I joined the group of uh,
2:51students who were opposed to the Shah.
2:54Uh, very small uh, Maoist group of all
2:59brands of Marxism in the world. Um, and
3:02um,
3:03I became active.
3:04>> Mhm.
3:04>> Uh, but I always wanted to go back to
3:07Iran. So, my activism was not uh,
3:10open because we were afraid of SAVAK
3:13what SAVAK might do.
3:15So, I went back in '75.
3:17Um,
3:19and began teaching at two universities,
3:21the the National University at the time
3:24and Tehran University Faculty of Law and
3:26Political Science.
3:27Um,
3:29where I know you served in the uh, Hague
3:33and some of the people who were coming
3:35from the Iranian side were actually my
3:37colleagues. And some of them later on my
3:39students. So, I taught there till '87,
3:41but before that in '76,
3:45I spent a year in prison.
3:46>> Mhm.
3:47>> Uh, as a Maoist. Uh,
3:50and uh, for 6 months of it I was in Evin
3:54prison. Um,
3:56the cell block that was holding the
3:58future leaders of Iran.
4:00Uh,
4:01almost everybody with exception of
4:03Khomeini Khomeini and Khomeini
4:06Khomeini was out of the country.
4:08Khomeini was in exile.
4:11But Montazeri, Taleqani, Rafsanjani,
4:14Haqqani they were all there. We spent 6
4:17months with them. It was extremely
4:19educational.
4:20>> Mhm.
4:21>> Uh
4:21in many ways.
4:24Evin has been called the university, but
4:26this one was a university in a very
4:28profoundly different way.
4:29>> [laughter]
4:31>> Could you see where they were going? I
4:32mean, you were
4:34obviously you couldn't predict the
4:35future, which side would win if the Shah
4:37ever fell, but did did you have a sense
4:39of that group of people, how radical
4:41they would become?
4:43>> I knew how radical they were.
4:44>> Mhm.
4:45>> Uh most of them. There were a couple of
4:47them who were profoundly
4:49uh human, profoundly open. Mr. Taleqani,
4:52I've written about Taleqani in a book
4:54called Seymour. Taleqani was as
4:56open-minded as any person I've ever
4:58seen.
4:59Uh but there were others who were just
5:01truly remarkable. But at that time, this
5:04is 2 and 1/2 year before the revolution.
5:07If you had told any of these people, any
5:10of them, that within 2 and 1/2 years you
5:12would rule Iran, they would suggest you
5:14go see a psychiatrist.
5:16>> Mhm.
5:17>> [laughter]
5:18>> They had not a dream even.
5:21And you know, this isn't just true about
5:23Iran. Other revolutions are the same. I
5:25mean, Trotsky was on his way to America
5:27when the revolution happened. They
5:29didn't think that the Bolsheviks had a
5:33distant possibility.
5:35Um
5:36but not only they didn't know,
5:39the remarkable thing is that the Shah's
5:41regime had no clue.
5:42>> Mhm.
5:43>> The Shah's regime believed that their
5:46main enemy were the left, which was a
5:48minor small group, or the Mossadeghists,
5:51which were larger in number, but still
5:53no threat. And they thought the clergy
5:56are their allies in the fight against
5:58these two.
6:002 years before the revolution.
6:03And I heard this and I've said this long
6:05ago before and it's been confirmed from
6:07many other sources. 2 and 1/2 years
6:09before the revolution, the SAVAK gave
6:12these clergy,
6:13the future leaders of the revolution,
6:16the option
6:18to sign a note that says, "We will
6:21criticize the regime as much as we
6:24criticize the left and Mossadeghist. If
6:26you sign that petition, they'll let you
6:28go."
6:322 and 1/2 years.
6:34And some of them signed
6:36and were let go.
6:37>> Mhm.
6:38>> That's how wrong they were
6:40strategically.
6:41>> Mhm. [clears throat]
6:42>> The CIA missed it just as much. The
6:44British intelligence missed it just as
6:46much. These are the two sources that
6:49I've had access to.
6:51Every evidence is that the Soviets
6:53missed it.
6:54The Israelis missed it.
6:58Um
6:59so
7:00>> [clears throat]
7:01>> that sort of a chasm between the reality
7:05>> Mhm.
7:06>> and the Shah's perception of who his
7:09enemies were,
7:11I think is one key to understanding why
7:13the revolution happened and why the
7:15clergy won.
7:16>> Mhm.
7:17I mean, it's a reminder obviously of the
7:19contingency that history throws up for
7:21us. When the moment came in 1979, as I
7:24understand from your memoir, you you
7:25weren't outside. You stayed at home even
7:28though you kind of had this sense that
7:29historical events were happening around
7:32you.
7:33What was your impulse to not go out in
7:34the street and and act with everyone
7:37else?
7:37>> I I went out into the streets to watch,
7:40but I wasn't at all happy that the Shah
7:43was going.
7:43>> Mhm.
7:44>> Uh
7:45because I knew what was coming. And I
7:47wasn't alone. I think anybody who wasn't
7:51uh
7:52befuddled by the romanticism of a
7:54revolution,
7:56by the sort of the riotous joys of a
7:59carnival that a revolution almost
8:01invariably is,
8:02>> Mhm.
8:02>> but could see that what is coming is
8:05fascism.
8:06Uh
8:07the person who introduced modern
8:09sociology to Iran,
8:11one of the most eminent scholars in
8:14social history of modern Iran, the the
8:16Dr. Sadegh Zibakalam.
8:18Uh,
8:19it's just a remarkable profile in
8:21courage. Very few people know of him.
8:23This is the guy who was uh one of the
8:25most devout fans of Mosaddegh.
8:28Had been in prison. Had never accepted a
8:31job in the government. Taught at the
8:33university.
8:35And on the eve of the revolution, he
8:36accepted to form a cabinet
8:39to save the country from what he says is
8:42the coming fascism of the sandstorm.
8:46And Shah for varieties of reasons, some
8:48of which we know, some of them which we
8:49don't know,
8:51didn't appoint him the prime minister.
8:54Because Sadegh had the brilliance, the
8:57patriotism to recognize that if he wants
8:59to save Iran, the Shah has to stay in
9:01Iran.
9:05Both the Americans
9:07and Bakhtiar insisted that the Shah
9:10leave Iran.
9:11The Carter administration, in spite of
9:14all the good he has done,
9:16and he changed my life in ways that I
9:18mean that I knew the day in prison that
9:21Carter was elected.
9:22Because the day after, our daily life
9:25changed for the better.
9:27Torture almost stopped immediately.
9:30>> Really?
9:31>> Oh, absolutely. I have I'm not saying
9:33this now, but
9:35I've written about it many times. Yeah.
9:38You know, when uh
9:40they put soap on the bathroom,
9:44they used to take us in blindfold to go
9:46to the bathroom. When I went to the
9:48bathroom and saw a soap, I said Carter
9:50must have I knew elections were coming.
9:52No, I really mean that. And then it
9:54began to change. They began changing the
9:56carpets and everything. But
9:58in spite of all this good, uh I think he
10:01has a
10:03a lot to answer in history
10:05>> Mhm.
10:05>> for missing the boat,
10:07for having no policy,
10:09and for eventually, with the help of
10:11Britain,
10:12deciding that Iran's future is better in
10:14the hands of the mullahs
10:16than in the hands of anybody else.
10:18>> One of my interests is how people in
10:20academia, how academics can survive
10:23under authoritarian regimes, under
10:25dictatorships, what strategies we
10:27employ. And of course, the first few
10:29years you were there, you were in the
10:30universities,
10:32and so what was that like? Did you have
10:34some sense of academic freedom in the
10:36first few years before you left for
10:38exile?
10:39>> Uh I didn't have a sense of academic
10:42freedom either under the Shah or
10:45certainly under the Islamic Revolution.
10:47Uh in the revolution, when the
10:49revolution came, they threw me out of
10:52the university after about a year and a
10:54half.
10:55At the law school where I taught, out of
10:5744 faculty, they threw out 40 of us
11:01because we were literally the first
11:03group to write statements against
11:05torture, the introduction of torture,
11:08against the new criminal
11:10>> [clears throat]
11:10>> code that they had written, an eye for
11:12an eye instead of the other.
11:14So I didn't feel like there was academic
11:17freedom,
11:18but there was more academic freedom on
11:20both regimes than it appears from
11:22outside if you know how to play the
11:25game.
11:27Uh I was a Marxist at the time,
11:30>> [clears throat]
11:30>> and students were in love
11:33about learning about Marxism.
11:36You couldn't say Marxism says this,
11:39we would say sociology, scientific
11:42sociology teaches us this.
11:45The students knew what I was talking
11:47about, I knew what I was talking about,
11:48and SAVAK knew,
11:50but they let it go.
11:51And if you navigated these,
11:54there was
11:56And
11:57the other thing that in retrospect I
12:00recognize about Iran
12:02is how much cultural freedom there was
12:05under the Shah
12:07uh as compared to, for example, the
12:10regime afterwards.
12:13The left, particularly and Mossadeghists
12:16still and the clergy, the opposition,
12:18defined freedom as the ability to
12:21criticize the Shah in their own terms.
12:24You, unless you can criticize the Shah
12:26directly, then this is not a democratic
12:29system.
12:30Well,
12:31not being able to criticize the Shah
12:33should be criticized.
12:35But Iranian woman had more freedom under
12:37the Shah than ever.
12:39Iranian Jews had more freedom under the
12:41Shah than ever.
12:43Iranian Baha'is had more freedom under
12:45the Shah than ever.
12:47Iranian arts developed more under the
12:49Shah than ever.
12:51Why are not those democratic
12:54uh freedoms? Why is democratic freedom
12:56only the right to
12:58organize
13:00as a Marxist?
13:02The constitution doesn't Iranian laws
13:05didn't allow us actually to form
13:07organization.
13:09But even if they did,
13:11we weren't allowed,
13:13but the clergy were allowed.
13:15The clergy had developed this remarkable
13:18network. No one paid attention to it.
13:21The
13:22CIA missed it, the SAVAK missed it, the
13:24intelligence
13:25missed it. As far as we know, the
13:26Israelis missed it.
13:29Because they thought, well, it's okay to
13:31have a school that teaches the Quran.
13:34Well, it depends what they teach in the
13:35Quran.
13:37And if you don't allow me
13:39to have my mind to speak my mind,
13:44uh
13:45why are you allowing the people who are
13:47attacking me
13:49a a free hand?
13:52And again, I don't say this now after
13:5550 years. Uh
13:57our trial because
13:59when we were put on trial because there
14:01were some of us who were professors like
14:02me and a couple of others, and it would
14:04and the amnesty came and it was a big
14:08And
14:09there is a
14:10tape of my
14:12defend that trial.
14:15Uh
14:16parts of it have been broadcast and
14:18there I say
14:20"Why should I I said all I wanted is to
14:22contribute to a better democratic Iran.
14:25You haven't allowed me to organize
14:27legally.
14:29If you had allowed me to have
14:30a you know a social democratic group, I
14:33wouldn't have gone underground."
14:36So
14:38when I go back, I think we essentially
14:41um
14:42we being the opposition and I I should
14:45only speak for myself. I'm sure many in
14:48in the opposition don't don't share
14:49that. I missed the boat on what the
14:53democracy means. Democracy doesn't just
14:55mean the right of a small minority to
14:58speak their mind. It does mean that
15:00but it's not limited to that.
15:02>> Mhm.
15:02>> If I had to go back I would absolutely
15:06give up my right to speak directly about
15:09Marxism for the right of Iranian Jews to
15:11live in more freedom than they had ever
15:13done.
15:14>> Mhm.
15:14>> The Iranian Baha'i, the Iranian woman,
15:16the Iranian Sunnis,
15:18every other
15:20of that period lived a better life than
15:24they had done before or they had done
15:26after.
15:27>> Mhm.
15:28>> There was a gay marriage in Iran, folks,
15:31in 1975.
15:34>> Mhm.
15:35>> Where people hired a carriage
15:38and covered it with flowers
15:41and one of them was very close to the
15:44court of the Shah.
15:46He was neither thrown out of the court
15:48nor
15:51there was a gay bar when the police went
15:54and beat on the gays. The queen
15:57literally went to the Shah.
15:59We have this from the American archives.
16:01They said, "What kind of brutality is
16:03this? These people are in a bar enjoying
16:05themselves. Let them have their
16:08That to me in retrospect is as important
16:11as my right to be able to openly talk
16:14about Marxism in class.
16:15>> Mhm.
16:17I want to turn to sort of the macro,
16:18like how did we get here? The countries
16:21are at war.
16:22Uh and you know, as I sort of think
16:24about the history, I I often describe it
16:26as like two particles in physics which
16:29are, you know, repelling each other but
16:31still entangled. They they're they're
16:33connected somehow
16:34uh and their histories are bound up
16:36together and sort of obsessed with each
16:38other.
16:39>> [laughter]
16:39>> As you read the history, I mean it's a
16:41huge question, but how how did we get
16:43here? How What is the source of such
16:45misunderstanding?
16:47>> Well,
16:48um again, um
16:50when you read some of the academicians
16:53in the West and when you read some of
16:55the media in the West,
16:58you get a very different answer than
17:00what I'm about to give you.
17:02Uh I think the source of this has to go
17:04back to the rise of Khomeini to power
17:08that basically decided, for reasons that
17:10I don't understand, I I certainly don't
17:12agree,
17:13uh
17:15that
17:16US is Iran's mortal enemy
17:19and that the destruction of Israel is
17:22one of the prime goals of Iran's foreign
17:24policy.
17:25I don't agree with that.
17:27Uh
17:28I think the Shah had a much better
17:30policy on Israel.
17:32The Shah criticized Israel's occupation
17:34of the Palestinian territories. The Shah
17:37repeatedly demanded that the
17:39Palestinians be given
17:41state of their own,
17:43but also had diplomatic relations with
17:45Israel.
17:47Uh
17:48Israel uh Iranian Jews have lived in
17:50Iran for 3,000 years.
17:53They Jews have not had a place
17:57healthier for them than Iran. Read
18:00Bernard Lewis, who is no friend of Iran.
18:03>> Mhm.
18:04>> And
18:05suddenly change that and say the
18:07destruction of the state of Israel is
18:09our prime goal and that death to America
18:12is
18:13uh our policy and that I initially
18:16Khomeini, then I Khomeini, ban a direct
18:20negotiations with the US. Why? First of
18:22all, what is the difference between a
18:24direct negotiation and an indirect
18:26negotiation? It sounds like a childish
18:29game we play in high elementary school.
18:32I don't talk to you, so don't touch me.
18:34If you want to send a message, send a
18:35message. I don't know whether they did
18:37this in high elementary schools here. We
18:39certainly didn't in Iran.
18:42Don't touch me. This is the
18:44They wasted weeks. People are dying in
18:47Iran.
18:48But we don't talk to Americans directly.
18:50We send a message to Omani's Prime
18:52Minister, and he sends back to us.
18:55The time that is lost, the precision
18:57that is lost.
18:59Why?
19:00And if you continuously say
19:04and do things
19:06against Israel and the United States, as
19:09Iran did, occupy the embassy.
19:11As Iran did, arming the Hezbollah
19:13against Israel. Well, obviously, when
19:16Israel thinks you're weakest, Israel is
19:18going to attack you.
19:20When you have a president like Trump and
19:21he sees you at the weakest and has close
19:24relationship with
19:26Netanyahu, they might use that occasion
19:29of your weakness. They have destroyed
19:32all your proxies.
19:35They have overthrown your ally Assad,
19:37for whom you have spent $70 billion
19:40dollars.
19:41You put 100,000 missiles there. They
19:43virtually Israelis have taken all of
19:45this out. Before all of this.
19:48Why are you continuing on this policy?
19:52So,
19:53uh
19:54Why Khamenei and Khomeini have it? I
19:57think it's a complicated story. It's a
19:58very different story. Khomeini,
20:00I think, had more a visceral dislike.
20:04Khamenei had a theoretical dislike.
20:06Khamenei had read Sayyid Qutb
20:10uh of Muslim Brotherhood.
20:13Khamenei had translated Sayyid Qutb.
20:16Uh what is very little known about him
20:18is that Khamenei has translated four of
20:21Qutb's books.
20:23Four.
20:26You read virtually every profile of
20:29Khomeini written in the last 40 years.
20:31There's no reference
20:33to the fact that
20:34this guy translated for all and he's a
20:37good translator.
20:39He was very
20:40Khomeini was a very eloquent speaker.
20:45Why? Because in Qutb he found something
20:48that he
20:50conceptually wanted to formalize.
20:53Anti-modernity.
20:55You have to understand Iran as
20:57essentially a battle between modernity
21:00and its foes.
21:01>> Mhm.
21:03>> That to me is the
21:05same expanded out.
21:07That's the battle of the last century in
21:09Iran.
21:10Between advocates of modernity
21:13and foes of modernity. And there is no
21:15foe more determined
21:18against modernity than the clergy.
21:21There is no one who has formulated
21:24an anti-modern
21:25narrative
21:28very very sophisticated
21:30than Khomeini
21:33and Sayyid Qutb.
21:34They basically say modernity is a
21:37Jewish-Christian trick.
21:39Verbatim.
21:41We don't want it. We want our Islam.
21:46>> I wonder
21:47I'm so I'm a constitutional lawyer and
21:49and it's a very novel our constitutional
21:51arrangement as you know in which there's
21:53an elected government which reflects the
21:56mood of the people within a bounded set
21:57of
21:59you know possible people to elect and
22:01then the supreme leader. And I wonder if
22:03there was ever a moment maybe around
22:05Khomeini's time or something like that
22:07where our side could have done more to
22:10encourage that modernity within the
22:12regime if you will to the the
22:14empowerment of the the more moderate
22:16elements and a softening of that view or
22:19was it always destined to be this way?
22:21Because if you say it's Khomeini then it
22:23seems like well there's not any options
22:25on our side.
22:27>> Well, I think there were options.
22:29Again, there are academicians, there are
22:31journalists who blame the failure of an
22:34improvement in this relationship always
22:36on America. That America didn't do
22:37enough.
22:39Uh
22:39and there are people who basically say
22:41the Iranian regime was never willing to
22:44do enough. I think the answer is a
22:46little more complicated, but there were
22:48things they could do. I think that
22:50the first thing that the US I think
22:52needs to do
22:54is develop a strategy about Iran.
22:57>> Mhm.
22:58>> The US has political
23:01reactions.
23:03The last time the US had a strategy on
23:05Iran was Richard Nixon.
23:08Say what you will about him. You can
23:10disagree with his agreement and theory.
23:13His view was that Iran
23:16next to Israel and next to Saudi Arabia,
23:19which at that time was a minor player,
23:22are keys to the future of the Middle
23:24East and we should support the Shah.
23:26>> Mhm.
23:26>> [clears throat]
23:27>> Don't talk to him about human rights.
23:30Don't talk to him about buying too much
23:32arm. Give him every piece of
23:34weaponry he wants except nuclear.
23:38After that,
23:40what was Carter's policy on Iran?
23:45Within the span of 6 months, he said
23:48that Iran is a despotic regime.
23:51It's a one-bullet state.
23:53It needs to have human rights.
23:55To say Iran is a island of security.
23:58>> Mhm.
23:58>> To say we should support the Shah.
24:01To say the Shah has to leave Iran.
24:04What was Reagan's policy?
24:06He said we never negotiate with these
24:08terrorists and negotiated with them.
24:12Every American administration have since
24:14then negotiated with this regime.
24:17Given it arms.
24:19If the US has decided that Iran should
24:23stay,
24:24well, that's one policy.
24:27But if the US has decided as every US
24:30administration has said that Iran is its
24:31biggest threat,
24:33if you look at these national security
24:35statements,
24:36what
24:37what are you doing about it?
24:39Do you have a long-term view?
24:42I That's to me the first thing.
24:45Uh
24:47in the case of Khatami, uh
24:50in the case of the Green Movement, I
24:52think Obama absolutely missed an
24:54opportunity.
24:56Uh
24:57at that time I say this because Mike
25:00McFaul has written about it. Mike McFaul
25:01is a very dear friend of mine. He and I
25:03are colleagues. We have written things.
25:05Mike McFaul was very close to Obama. And
25:08through Mike McFaul, repeatedly we told
25:10him
25:11that you need to now come out and say
25:14very strongly that the Iranian people
25:16can take the sword to the Green
25:18Movement.
25:19He didn't do it.
25:23Because he wanted the deal.
25:26And and the deal he got, I was for the
25:29nuclear deal, but I thought it was a
25:31flawed deal because it didn't include
25:33the human rights issue.
25:34>> [snorts and clears throat]
25:35>> And it didn't include the issue of the
25:37proxies.
25:38And I
25:39wrote it down. I don't say it now.
25:42Uh
25:43Trump walking away from the deal to me
25:45was wrong.
25:48Uh
25:49the deal was flawed, but walking away
25:52from it wasn't the way to solve it. Nor
25:55is the invasion. I I I've always
25:58believed, and I've written this hundred
26:00times, from 2008 you can read it in the
26:03media,
26:04that I, although find this regime to be
26:08absolutely disastrous for Iran, I have
26:11never supported the attack of Iran.
26:14If Iran is to have democracy, it has to
26:17be built by the people of Iran for the
26:19people of Iran.
26:21The US neither has the moral right nor
26:24the possibility of forcing its will on
26:27the people of Iran.
26:29>> But now we're in the midst of attempting
26:31to do precisely that. And uh so I want
26:34to ask you maybe obviously no one can
26:37know the future, but we have a regime
26:38that looks like it will survive uh at
26:41least for the moment. Um and how and
26:44with even less support from the people
26:46than it ever had.
26:47Uh but
26:48they can repress for quite a while. I
26:51mean, do you see any um
26:53Well, I read something which described
26:55you a 10-year-old article said the
26:57Iranian optimist. So, is there any sign
26:59that there might be some moderation or
27:01anything like that? How do you see this
27:02kind of playing out?
27:04>> Uh I hate to do this, but I have to
27:05correct you.
27:06>> Yeah.
27:07>> They didn't say the Iranian optimist.
27:09They say the lunatic optimist.
27:11>> [laughter]
27:13>> And you know who was the guy who said
27:15the lunatic optimist?
27:16>> No.
27:16>> The head of the CIA desk
27:20in uh the US government.
27:22>> Okay.
27:23>> Married to the head of the Iran desk in
27:25the State Department.
27:27>> [laughter]
27:28>> They were writing uh the Stanford
27:30magazine was writing a profile of me,
27:32and they hired this journalist, and he
27:34said, "Can we talk to somebody who can
27:36say bad things about you?" I said, "Go
27:38talk to this guy."
27:39>> [laughter]
27:40>> And he said, "Milani is a lunatic
27:41optimist."
27:43I am a lunatic optimist.
27:45No, I I I truly am. Uh
27:47maybe I'm not lunatic optimist, but I'm
27:49an optimist. I absolutely believe that
27:51Iran will be democ- a democracy.
27:54Uh
27:55not a democracy imposed from outside. I
27:57don't believe that that's
27:59I I did desirable or possible.
28:01Uh but I think the Iranian people led by
28:04woman
28:06want democracy.
28:08Uh
28:10The Iranian woman organized what I think
28:12is the most successful civil
28:14disobedience movement of the last 50
28:17years after the African-American
28:18movement in America.
28:20And to its shame, I think,
28:23much of the left
28:25in the world, many of the feminists
28:28refused to accept that movement, refused
28:30to support it.
28:32Many of them came out and said, these
28:34are creations of Israel and the United
28:36States.
28:38Uh I think that's a very genuine
28:40movement.
28:41I think that movement has continued.
28:43It's
28:44the reason every day, today, as we
28:47speak,
28:48as the US is negotiating with Iran,
28:52talk to anybody who has any relative in
28:54Iran,
28:55the constant theme of everyday life in
28:58Iran is the regime threatening the
29:00people that will kill you if you come
29:02out in the streets.
29:03We'll expropriate you, your family, if
29:07you're even a dissident outside. They're
29:09now extending this reign of terror to
29:12outside. 400 people have been named that
29:15if you are an opponent of the Iranian
29:17regime outside,
29:19they're now sending text messages to
29:21phones
29:23in US, in Canada, in Europe, that we
29:27have seen you in this demonstration. If
29:29you continue, your property is your
29:32So, uh
29:34the people want change, but making
29:36change from this this atmosphere,
29:40making a change from a regime that has
29:43the capacity to still kill several
29:46thousand people within 3 days,
29:49as it [clears throat] did almost
29:52100 years days ago.
29:54Uh it's not easy. It hasn't been done.
29:56It certainly can't be done from the air.
30:02>> I want [clears throat] to, before
30:03opening it up, I want to ask you kind of
30:04a meta question if I can. You know, one
30:07of the things I'm very interested in at
30:08the forum is and one of the reasons we
30:10have universities is so that we can
30:13encounter new evidence and change our
30:14minds.
30:16And you are a former Marxist now working
30:18at the Hoover Institution, where I don't
30:19think there's too many Marxists hanging
30:21out. Um a former Maoist, I should say.
30:23That's that's really hardcore. Um
30:28what was the process of changing your
30:30mind? What maybe you could give us some
30:31examples of issues on which you changed
30:33your mind and and what led you to do
30:35that?
30:36>> Well, who said I changed my mind?
30:38>> [laughter]
30:40>> No, I'll get my little red book out and
30:42we
30:42>> No, no. No, I changed my mind in the
30:45sense that
30:46I thought
30:47Mao was an illiterate Marxist.
30:51Um but again to go to
30:54Kolakowski,
30:55whose work I translated, the
30:56three-volume Main Currents of Marxism,
30:59he said
31:00um traditionally Stalinists and Maoists
31:03exit Marxism in a similar fashion.
31:07They first translate Gramsci.
31:10I translated Gramsci in 1980.
31:14I translated a collection of essays from
31:16Gramsci called State and Civil Society.
31:19Then they try to find a common ground
31:22between Freud and Marx.
31:25I published a series of essays called
31:27Freud and History and Red Brown, Norman
31:29Brown.
31:30Um
31:32and of course
31:33the person who's not your father
31:35Kolakowski, Ginsberg.
31:39And then you realize that um
31:42what you thought were the essence of
31:45justice seeking
31:47in Marxism can't be found in orthodox
31:50Marxism. Mao was actually uh
31:53willing to kill 20 million people.
31:56Stalin was willing to kill 30 million
31:59people
32:00to force his ideas on society.
32:03Uh
32:04So in a sense um
32:07my
32:08uh
32:09recognition was that
32:11first, what I thought about Iranian
32:13society is completely wrong.
32:16That the Shah had actually made a lot of
32:18changes.
32:20Uh that my understanding of Marxism was
32:23profoundly flawed.
32:25Uh
32:26And then uh
32:27I think uh
32:29the last point is that uh there are in
32:32fact some lapsed uh or continued uh
32:36Marxists who now work at Hoover.
32:39The Mike McFaul
32:41works at Hoover. Larry Diamond works at
32:44Hoover.
32:46Uh
32:47the list goes on. The Hoover was uh
32:51about 25 years ago
32:53a completely a right-wing group.
32:56The Stanford said you can't do that.
32:59The Hoover became an institution like
33:02your institution that is part of the uh
33:05Chicago University became part of the
33:08university. And the university said that
33:10you can't do this kind of uh
33:14So, they began expanding the fellowship.
33:17Uh and now they have uh 40% The last
33:21time they did a count, 40% of the
33:23fellows are big D Democrats.
33:28>> Well, I do want to open it up. I know
33:29there's going to be many questions from
33:30the audience. So, we do have some
33:32questions that are going to come in
33:33online, but um if anyone has a question
33:35in the room I'm Marjanouch. Uh and we'll
33:38If you could wait for the mic here in
33:39the front.
33:42And please introduce yourself if you're
33:43willing.
33:44>> Hi, my name is Marjanouch Sorush, I'm a
33:45faculty of archaeology here.
33:48Um
33:49I totally agree with you that um we
33:51should have not um thrown out whatever
33:54was achieved under the Shah, the same
33:56way that I agree with you that we should
33:58not for
33:59uh we should not um kind of undermine
34:02whatever was achieved these past decades
34:05in Iran. But, I would disagree with kind
34:08of romanticization of those aspects of
34:12modern urban society in Iran that was
34:14under the Shah because for from my
34:17perspective working on kind of rural
34:19landscapes, hydraulic landscapes
34:22the contrast of what you're exper- uh
34:25explaining is um is extreme poverty that
34:29came with a lot of these big development
34:31projects, very bad top-down projects
34:34that completely
34:36destroyed the fabric of the society both
34:39economically and culturally. And those
34:41kind of hallmarks that
34:43looked nice
34:45from outside, especially right now,
34:47should be seen in the perspective of
34:50extremely
34:52kind of traditional society that see
34:54that
34:55as some kind of um
34:58humiliation and disrespect that had that
35:01backlash.
35:02And I see that
35:04so uh said repeatedly, for example, that
35:06Obama having having elected a black
35:09president was not good, and that's why
35:11we have this backlash even in the
35:13American society. Or like so, this is I
35:16I I I I want to say that kind of putting
35:19those kind of incidences should be seen
35:22as kind of the big picture of Iran in 30
35:25years ago, and the fact that a lot of
35:26the society didn't like those things.
35:30>> W- Well, first of all, uh
35:33it's interesting you uh call my view
35:35romantic, and then you offer a
35:38profoundly romantic view of Iran. You
35:40think disrupting the traditional
35:43feudalism of Iran
35:44uh was a humiliation of the villages.
35:47I
35:48Well, that's what I That's what
35:50romantics believe. That's what
35:51romanticism is. That's what Rousseau is.
35:54The notion that the noble man lives in
35:57this village. Uh people who think like
35:59you, for example, Dariush Shayegan wrote
36:01a book Osyan Darbaraye Gharb.
36:04Uh
36:05>> That's from an economic we can have a
36:06long discussion.
36:07>> Yeah. Let's Let's let him answer. No,
36:09no, please go ahead. No, go ahead. I I I
36:12I You've all heard my view. I
36:14I'd like to hear your criticism. But why
36:17is it that why is the notion that the
36:19continuation of feudalism in Iran,
36:22uh as you see it, is better than the
36:25disruption of it?
36:27The Shah's period
36:29brought about uh
36:32two of the biggest migrations in Iran's
36:363,000-year history.
36:39One is from the village to the city.
36:42When the Pahlavis took over Iran, almost
36:4580% of the Iranians
36:47were in the village.
36:48When the Pahlavis left Iran,
36:51the number was half of that.
36:54Today, it's 20%.
36:56That's a remarkable movement towards
36:58modernity.
37:00Everywhere, that's the movement towards
37:02modernity. That's what happened in
37:03England. Now, the romantics from
37:05Rousseau to Dariush Shayegan and maybe
37:08you, I don't know enough about your
37:10views, but I'm talking about just the
37:12view you suggested. Say, "No, no, don't
37:14touch this. This is really the noble
37:16Iran."
37:17You should live in that village that
37:18doesn't have drinking water. I told this
37:21to Dariush Shayegan when he wrote the
37:23book.
37:25Transcript of the discussion is there.
37:27Dariush Shayegan, Mascoob, uh Davari, uh
37:31and uh
37:33uh me.
37:35And I said, "You want to live in that
37:37village that you say is the most
37:38beautiful thing and that modernity
37:40destroyed it. The Indians would
37:41[clears throat] be would have been
37:42happier drawing water than this modern
37:46I don't. Maybe you do.
37:48But my view is no less no more romantic
37:52than your view. That's what romanticism
37:54with a big R means.
37:56The second movement that the Shah
37:58Pahlavi era brought about,
38:01equally important,
38:02is from for woman
38:06from the inside the house to the outside
38:09the house.
38:10Reza Shah made possible the movement of
38:13Iranian women in the streets.
38:16That is a remarkable movement.
38:19Reza Shah put windows in houses
38:22so woman can look at the outside. Reza
38:25Shah, with absolute brutality,
38:28put down the mullahs who didn't want
38:30women to go to school.
38:33That's
38:34from the top.
38:36But the women who lived in Iran at the
38:38time didn't think like you.
38:41Women who lived in Iran at the time
38:44read some of their memoirs.
38:45They say,
38:47"We want to go to school.
38:49We want to have the right to be in the
38:50streets.
38:52We as Jews want to live everywhere in
38:55Iran. We don't want to live in our
38:57neighborhoods."
38:58That's a movement that the Shah Reza
39:00Shah broke and Mohammad Reza Shah
39:02continued.
39:04>> Um we're going to take one from online.
39:07>> This question has come in from our uh
39:09virtual participants and a reminder for
39:11virtual participants to email their
39:12questions in.
39:14Dr. Milani, you've described the Islamic
39:16Republic as fundamentally anti-modern,
39:18but at the same time it has become
39:20effective at resonating with Western
39:22audiences, especially through the
39:24language of anti-imperialism and
39:26resistance, and often through
39:28propaganda.
39:29What mechanisms allow this paradox to
39:32function?
39:34>> Uh the mechanism that has allowed it to
39:36function is a very clever
39:39um architecture of narrative. Uh
39:42Khomeini and Khamenei both completely
39:45understood what is going to appeal to
39:48the Western left.
39:50What is going to appeal to even some of
39:53the feminists.
39:54What is uh
39:56Khomeini um
39:59initially appeared
40:01>> [clears throat]
40:02>> on the political horizon in Iran
40:05in I don't know why I'm looking at the
40:07speaker
40:09like a I think this The voice has
40:12come from there, so I must be there.
40:16I I I I need to have my IQ checked.
40:19>> [laughter]
40:21>> So, don't look there.
40:22>> Yeah,
40:22but the people are out there and they
40:24can see you.
40:24>> I I know I know I know. I finally
40:26realized that that's not where the
40:28camera is.
40:29>> [laughter]
40:31>> Uh
40:33what was I saying?
40:37>> You narrative and propaganda.
40:39>> Khomeini Khomeini appeared on the
40:42political horizon
40:44on the national level
40:46opposing two things.
40:48The right of woman to vote
40:51and
40:52the American uh that law that the Shah
40:55passed that gave Americans capitulation
40:59rights in Iran.
41:01The Shah wanted American military
41:03advisers.
41:05The Americans says, "Unless you pass
41:07this law that the US forces and their
41:10families have 24 hours a day immunity."
41:14Something far greater than the Vienna
41:16Convention. Uh
41:18we want certain forces.
41:20And I've written in detail about this in
41:22the Persian Sphinx. And under direct
41:25pressure of the Shah, the Majlis passed
41:26the law. Khomeini spoke out against it.
41:29He spoke brilliantly, defiantly.
41:32And that put him on the map as someone
41:34who is a anti-imperialist.
41:37To me, he was a xenophobe.
41:40But clearly understood that in order to
41:43not appear that he's anti-modern, that
41:46he's anti-imperialist, he needs to
41:49uh
41:49sort of uh
41:51pick and choose very carefully. Khomeini
41:54was a brilliant politician. I know very
41:58the only person that compares to
41:59Khomeini in terms of his political savvy
42:03is Reza Shah.
42:05I've just finished a book about Reza
42:06Shah.
42:0720th century history of Iran is a battle
42:09between Reza Shah
42:11and Khomeini.
42:14And both of them were very careful with
42:15the language. Khomeini is brilliant.
42:18It's as If you've read about Lenin,
42:22people say he was monomaniacally
42:24accurate. He always spoke on line. He
42:27wouldn't say a word more or a little
42:29less. He knew exactly how to say what he
42:31wanted. Khomeini exactly knew this. This
42:34nonsense that his opponents say that he
42:36was ignorant, that he didn't know how to
42:37speak, he was a village uh priest.
42:41I think it's nonsense. He was very
42:43clever. He said things exactly the way
42:47he needed to say in order to have the
42:49wide disappear
42:51appealed.
42:53And he is after that continued to
42:57couch his language his discourse very
43:00much in a way that would appeal to the
43:02anti-imperialist. The Iranian
43:04Confederation of which I was a member
43:07you should read some of the stuff that
43:09we wrote about Khomeini
43:11Khomeini in that period from 1965 when
43:14he went into exile
43:17elevating him to this person that sort
43:19of brings together the brilliance and
43:22nationalism and patriotism of Mossadegh
43:25with a revolutionary fervor.
43:28That's how they
43:29approached it.
43:31And almost no one
43:34had read the book that he had written in
43:351971 which is that if I come to power
43:39I'm going to create Velayat-e Faqih and
43:42whoever is not with me
43:44is mofsed-e-fel-arz.
43:47The Shah's regime banned this book.
43:51I would have taught it at every school
43:54in Iran.
43:56I'd say
43:57this is the option.
43:59This is what he says. He says if I come
44:01I'm going to have sharia and I'm going
44:04to force sharia as I understand it
44:06because I'm anointed by God and the rest
44:08of you mean nothing. He literally says
44:10if not a single Iranian accepts me I am
44:12the sole legitimate ruler of the
44:14country.
44:15You want this?
44:17Come and get it.
44:19So he was very very careful.
44:21And
44:22uh
44:23what I think we
44:25have to face is a to me a kind of a
44:28racism in the attitude about Iran.
44:31Almost anybody think they can write
44:32anything about Iran.
44:35Journalists who don't know a single word
44:37of Persian
44:38scholars who don't read Farsi
44:41write eloquently if they think about
44:45Iran.
44:45If they do that about almost any other
44:48non-third world country they would be
44:50laughed out of the
44:51academy.
44:53Can you imagine somebody in American act
44:57academia writing about American politics
44:59and not knowing English?
45:02And getting tenure in American politics.
45:07It can't happen, but in Iran it can.
45:09Anybody can talk about Iran
45:12and write about Iran.
45:14One of the best books about '53, one of
45:17the most commonly read books about 1953,
45:20is written by a journalist, very
45:21confident journalist, but knows nothing
45:24about Iran other than what he reads in
45:26English.
45:27He wrote a book about Mosaddegh's uh
45:30coup.
45:33Based on essentially one document, the
45:35CIA.
45:37You can't write history, a serious
45:40history of that event,
45:41without consulting other sources,
45:44without consulting Iranian sources.
45:47There were Iranians who have written
45:49about this.
45:51So,
45:52the the dilemma we have is that you know
45:57often times
45:58the most
46:00influential pundits in the West
46:02uh are people who uh
46:04maybe have flown over Iran.
46:08Uh
46:09but uh
46:12Iran is a you know uh
46:15when I read the title that I I think you
46:17chose for the talk, Unpacking Iran, uh I
46:20was really afraid. I said, "This is a
46:2312,000 year
46:25history.
46:28For 12,000 years people have lived
46:30there.
46:31The Elam culture one of the most
46:33remarkable. We just had a gentleman, an
46:36anthropologist, give a talk
46:38about civilization. He says everybody
46:40says Iran has 3,000 year history, wrong
46:44by 9,000 years.
46:45Iran has 12,000 year history. Iran has
46:48given us the first uh monotheistic
46:51religion in the world. Iran has given us
46:53one of the best architectural tradition
46:56traditions in the world.
46:58Nietzsche has written one of his most
47:00important books inspired by that first
47:03monotheist religion.
47:05You can't unpack that
47:07in an hour.
47:10You have to have humility when you come
47:12to Iran. This is a complicated place.
47:16You can't just think that because as one
47:19scholar I asked him said, "You're
47:22expertise is in some country in Saudi
47:24Arabia. What are you writing about
47:25Iran?" He said, "Iran is sexy."
47:28You can't write about Iran just because
47:30it's sexy. You can,
47:32but the fact that they you get published
47:34then academic presses publish you.
47:39Can you imagine doing that with any
47:41other culture?
47:46>> We had a question over here somewhere.
47:48Please.
47:48>> Hi.
47:49>> And if you could introduce yourself.
47:50>> Absolutely. Uh my name is Sina. I'm a
47:52fourth-year PhD student here in here in
47:55University of Chicago.
47:56Uh in your speech you said that you
47:58don't agree with war. So, my question is
48:02given that the
48:04government just kills people and then
48:06won't let any peaceful protest over
48:08anything, how do you think that would be
48:10possible for people to have a country or
48:14have a freedom that they deserve?
48:18>> Uh
48:19I when I say I don't believe
48:22uh that there is a military solution to
48:24the problem, I did not mean that the
48:26West, the international community,
48:28should not or cannot help Iran.
48:31They should help Iranians
48:33and they
48:34fight this battle in a more equitable
48:36way.
48:38Uh
48:38one way is to help the Iranian
48:40Democrats.
48:41Right now, the only way out of Iran is
48:44by Skyland is Starlinks.
48:47The United States has the capacity to
48:49make this kind of a
48:51linkage.
48:52The Iran The United States, the West has
48:55the capacity to break the Iranian
48:57regime's iron hold on social media.
49:01They should end that.
49:03They should help the Iranian
49:06society.
49:08And [snorts] they should diminish the
49:09ability of the regime to suppress.
49:13Cut off their funds.
49:16This regime absolutely rely These people
49:20who are
49:21killing people right now
49:23uh
49:24are not doing it as far as I understand
49:26it because of ideology.
49:29They are Sunday's war.
49:30They're based on rent.
49:33They're based on the
49:35money is extra money is possibilities
49:38that they get.
49:42They're running out of that possibility.
49:45They're bringing in people from Hashd
49:47al-Shaabi, Kata'ib, Zainabiyoun,
49:50Fatemiyoun in the last few weeks.
49:54Parading them in the streets,
49:56threatening the Iranian people by
49:57bringing in these foreign mercenaries.
50:00Called the axis of resistance.
50:03Make that
50:05more difficult.
50:06Freeze their assets. Throw them out of
50:09international organizations. The fact
50:11that Iran would be in the United Nation
50:14in a women's rights group
50:17is a shame to the United Nations.
50:20The fact that, you know,
50:22right now
50:23uh
50:24we can't bring an Iranian dissident to
50:26give a talk at Stanford. We can't bring
50:28Iranian students to study at Stanford.
50:315,000 [snorts]
50:32of the best and brightest Iranians are
50:34about to be thrown out of this country.
50:36That's madness.
50:39These are the people who are going to
50:41change this regime.
50:42Marines are not going to do it.
50:45Iranians are going to do it.
50:47Throwing these 5,000 is contrary to US
50:50interests, contrary to everything
50:52America stands for, and absolutely
50:55contrary to what Iran needs.
50:58Why shouldn't we be able to bring
50:59dissidents?
51:01Why should the regime be able to send
51:03its children here to educate, but we
51:04can't bring dissidents to
51:07have a post doc at Stanford? We can't.
51:11>> Can I ask a follow-up question?
51:13>> I don't know if we have time. I think
51:14there's there's a lot of questions. We
51:15have time for maybe one more, really.
51:18Um so maybe I'll turn to this young lady
51:20in the back. You.
51:23We're going to have, by the way, a
51:24reception afterwards. We're going to
51:25have plenty of time for discussion.
51:26>> Hi. Uh thank you. I'm a PhD candidate in
51:29the art history department. Um I wanted
51:31to ask whether you can elaborate a
51:33little bit more on the notion of
51:35modernity that you talked about.
51:38And also uh I was wondering what is your
51:40assessment of opposition groups at the
51:43moment. Is it going anywhere
51:44[clears throat]
51:45or not?
51:46>> Yeah.
51:46>> Thank you.
51:47>> Well, the first one I'm more much more
51:48interested in because uh
51:50uh I have literally spent much of my
51:53adult life writing about that.
51:56>> [clears throat]
51:57>> Uh
51:58I have a view of modernity that is uh
52:00almost
52:01different than most people have.
52:04I don't believe this Eurocentric view
52:06that modernity began in the West.
52:09That's to me nonsense.
52:12We had from 9th century to the 14th
52:17century in Iran.
52:19And I've written about this in two Farsi
52:22books and uh
52:24one English book. One is called Lost
52:26Wisdom. Uh the other one is called
52:28Tajaddud Tajaddud Cities that Iran and
52:30the other one is called Sayyid Sayyah.
52:33I'm not trying to sell books, obviously.
52:36Uh all of these are
52:38possible to download for free,
52:40fortunately, everywhere.
52:42Uh
52:45So there is this Eurocentric view that
52:48anything that is good has come from the
52:50West.
52:52And that Iranians, if they want to be
52:53modern, Talizadeh famously said they
52:55have to become in their bread and bone
52:59Western.
53:00Nonsense.
53:03Humanism, they say, comes from the West.
53:08I don't think they have read Saadi.
53:10Saadi is a profound humanist. I just
53:13wrote a
53:14article book with a colleague called
53:17Humanism and Saadi.
53:18Literally 200 years before the word
53:20humanism
53:21reaches a political discourse, Saadi
53:23talks about humanism.
53:25Describes humanism.
53:27They say if you want to be modern, you
53:29have to learn your historiography from,
53:32you know, University of Chicago or other
53:34centers. Well, we have to learn from
53:36Chicago and other places, but we also
53:39have a lot to teach them.
53:41We have Bayhaqi,
53:43which was 900 years ago one of the most
53:47brilliant works of historiography.
53:50And part of what happened is that two
53:53groups appeared in Iran in the last
53:56century
53:57who told us modernity is Western.
54:00One, the mullahs, who didn't want
54:02modernity.
54:04Two, the pseudo intellectuals,
54:07who said who don't really understand
54:09Iran that well, they haven't studied it
54:11that well. They said, "Well, we got to
54:14emulate the West.
54:16Change the alphabet."
54:21Self-cognition,
54:23self-assertive
54:26uh individualism is the core of
54:28modernity.
54:31We had
54:32900 [snorts]
54:34years ago
54:36the book, let's because it's about
54:38modernity and we want to
54:40I'm a lunacy optimist. I want to have
54:42end on a happy note.
54:43>> Yes.
54:44>> Uh
54:44we had Vis and Ramin.
54:48I don't know how many of you have heard
54:50the word Vis and Ramin.
54:52How many of you have read it?
54:55There's now a Farsi translation of it.
54:58Uh English translation, Dick Davis has
55:00translated.
55:01It is more remarkable than Madame Bovary
55:05about its assertive woman characters.
55:10Iranian Shahnameh is filled with these
55:13brilliant women.
55:16180
55:18years ago, almost 170 years ago, we had
55:21Qurratu'l-Ayn.
55:23A woman, brilliant, erudite, poet,
55:27tears her veil and gives a talk
55:30in Iran.
55:32And the sight is so remarkable that
55:35people of her own faith, the Bábís, one
55:38of them is so shocked and surprised,
55:42takes the throat to his own at
55:44knife to his own throat. Another one
55:46tries to attack and these are Bábís.
55:48These are the reformers who are trying
55:49to reform their religion.
55:52That tradition
55:54of modernity,
55:56that sense of uh
55:59language, when you know, they talk about
56:01modernity, imagine community, language
56:04that is the cement of identity. Well,
56:06we've had that for 1,000 years.
56:09We had Shahnameh.
56:13These pseudo-intellectuals who say,
56:15"Well, you know, and not just
56:17pseudo-intellectuals,
56:19clergy, too. They said the idea of Iran
56:22is a Western concoction.
56:25Seyed Qutb literally says, he says,
56:27"Patriotism, nationalism is a
56:30Judeo-Christian trick
56:32because they want to undermine ummah."
56:35Well, we've had the notion of Iran for
56:38over 2,000 years.
56:42Who are you, the pseudo-intellectual in
56:44the West, whether Iranian or otherwise,
56:47to tell us that we shouldn't begin our
56:50modernity by understanding ourselves?
56:52Modernity, renaissance means rebirth.
56:56Study Iranian architecture.
57:00Uh you know, read Byron
57:03who says,
57:05"Almost everything we call Islamic
57:07architecture comes from Iran."
57:09And Byron, when he wrote this, The Road
57:11to Oxiana,
57:13that is considered one of the most
57:14brilliant
57:16art history
57:18accounts. He travels to Iran.
57:21He can't go to a mosque in Iran. He has
57:24to bribe somebody to go to a mosque.
57:27The second time he comes back, he can go
57:30because Reza Shah has opened the mosque
57:33for everyone to visit.
57:36He has opened it with brute force,
57:40but he's opened it for a different Iran.
57:43Maybe I'm romantic,
57:45but
57:47I'm also a lunatic, so
57:49thank you.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Did West Underestimate Iran? Dr. Abbas Milani & Tom Ginsburg Explain US-Iran Tensions | 4K by CRUX, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 8,303 words across 1,558 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.