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Did Nichol Kessinger Manipulate Chris Watts? | Passionate Phase of Romance — Transcript

by Dr. Todd Grande · 3,455 words · 510 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00welcome to my scientifically informed
0:01insider look at mental health topics if
0:04you find this video to be interesting or
0:06helpful please like it and subscribe to
0:07my channel oh this is dr. grande today's
0:10question asks about the Chris Watts
0:12murder and specifically about how the
0:15affair that he was involved in seemed to
0:18contribute to the murder so really I
0:20received a lot of questions asking about
0:22Nicole Kissinger's role and at what kind
0:26of dynamics could have been at play
0:28there that again may have contributed to
0:31these horrible homicides that Chris
0:33Watts committed now whenever we're
0:36talking about causality why people do
0:39things it's very difficult to nail down
0:41I'm just really speculating about what
0:45could have been happening with people in
0:48this situation I'm not diagnosing Chris
0:50Watts are diagnosing Nicole Kessinger or
0:53anybody else really just speculating
0:56based on available evidence and this
0:58really brings me to an important point
0:59the available evidence in this case is
1:03really not great there's a lot of
1:05unreliable sources and the largest one
1:08of course is Chris Watts himself because
1:10he lied so much in this case there's no
1:13way to know if he's really telling the
1:14truth or not so it's kind of a difficult
1:18situation when it comes to the
1:20credibility of all these different
1:21stories and how we weigh this different
1:25evidence we see in this case so I'm
1:27gonna give a quick summary of the case a
1:29lot of people are familiar with it but
1:31just as no review we see that Chris
1:34Watts aged 33 and Nicole Kessinger aged
1:3730 start an affair sometime in late June
1:41early July of 2018 and that affair
1:45continued until mid August of 2018 and
1:50that's when Chris Watts murdered his
1:52wife and unborn child and his two
1:55daughters and after this police
1:58interviewed Nicole Kessinger the
2:00mistress and she denied having any
2:03involvement and it is important to note
2:04that she was never charged with anything
2:06now Chris lots of course was charged
2:09after confessing to the murder of his
2:12wife and then
2:13confessing to all the murders and he was
2:16sentenced to life in prison without the
2:18possibility of parole and he's serving
2:20that right now in Wisconsin he's serving
2:23a sentence in a prison in Wisconsin so
2:26that's kind of a quick summary of the
2:27case and we see an interview of Chris
2:29that law enforcement carried out in
2:31March of 2018 and they found him to be
2:35somewhat credible and that interview and
2:37some of the information here kind of
2:39comes from that interview but I'm still
2:41on the fence I mean he had a lot of time
2:43to kind of craft lies while in prison
2:45and it's not clear why he would be
2:48honest at this point although it's also
2:51not perfectly clear why he would be
2:52dishonest and I don't think that the law
2:55enforcement are really in the best
2:57position to decide who's lying or not we
2:59know from the research literature that
3:01really nobody's good at determining the
3:04somebody's lying or not and sometimes
3:06law enforcement officers believe they
3:08have superior abilities in this area but
3:10again evidence shows that they do not so
3:13just because they found them to be
3:14credible that doesn't really mean a lot
3:16to me as a scientist so again we have a
3:19lot of unreliable information but some
3:22of the facts of the case of course have
3:23been established
3:24Nicole Kessinger and Chris Watts had an
3:25affair and Chris Watts murdered his
3:28family those things we know for sure so
3:30getting back to the original question a
3:32lot of people are interested in the
3:33dynamics here and how this affair seemed
3:36to really motivate or push Chris to
3:40these bad acts and it didn't really seem
3:42to affect Nicole in the same way
3:44obviously she wasn't clearly involved in
3:47the crime she wasn't charged so it
3:48doesn't appear like she was involved and
3:50she seemed much more indifferent to the
3:52relationship than did Chris so one
3:56theory here kind of revolves around
3:58vulnerable narcissism I touched on this
4:00in a prior video this idea that Chris
4:02Watts was actually socially awkward and
4:04shy now I'm a little skeptical that he
4:07really fits this category enough to meet
4:11these particular criteria but these
4:14constructs are on a continuum and we do
4:16know that vulnerable narcissism tends to
4:19oscillate back and forth between
4:21that vulnerable state and a grandiose
4:23state of narcissism so everything is on
4:26a continuum
4:27with this movement back and forth it
4:29could be that at times he was socially
4:31awkward and shy Nicole described him in
4:34an interview with police as an introvert
4:36but not extremely introverted and
4:37usually when we use the term socially
4:39awkward or shy we are talking about a
4:41little bit more of an extreme version of
4:43introversion or low extraversion so
4:46anyway under this theory he has
4:48characteristics consistent with
4:49vulnerable narcissism and Nicole
4:51Kessinger manipulated him not
4:54necessarily to commit murder but
4:56unintentionally manipulated him and kind
4:59of moved him in this direction of being
5:01homicidal so the analogy that kind of
5:04comes up here that I think is
5:05appropriate and this is how some people
5:08conceptualize it is that like say
5:11there's like a beautiful actress and
5:12she's very wealthy and very successful
5:15and she's been a lot of movies and she
5:17kind of picks a sad lonely socially
5:21awkward guy who doesn't really stand out
5:22from any positive reasons right he's not
5:25kind of at the same level with acting or
5:29fame or anything but even for other
5:31achievements he doesn't really stand out
5:32and she decides to start dating him what
5:36would a person what with a man that
5:37situation do right in a sense the
5:41beautiful actress could manipulate that
5:43man without even trying because the
5:46status level is so different or the
5:48apparent status level is so different
5:50now I know Nicole Kessinger was not a
5:53Hollywood actress or anything like that
5:55but that's kind of the analogy as people
5:57have described it to me when they say
5:59well this is maybe touching on what
6:01happened is that she had a lot of power
6:03in this relationship because she was
6:05very attractive and Chris didn't think
6:07of himself as attractive so it creates a
6:09gap more similar to kind of the sad
6:12lonely guy and the beautiful actress
6:14that's what I really mean here it's an
6:15analogy not what directly happened with
6:18Nicole and Chris and he did mention that
6:21Nicole appeared to pursue him and the
6:24evidence is pretty clear about their
6:25sexual activity they had a lot of sex
6:27about four or five times a week they met
6:29and who knows how many sexual encounters
6:31that involved and we also saw that
6:33Nicole sent Chris semi nude photos so
6:37I'm a little kind of torn on this theory
6:40and I'll
6:41a little bit more about that in a moment
6:43here that this idea that Nicole was
6:45really kind of nonchalant and not
6:48invested in the relationship and Chris
6:50was head over heels the evidence doesn't
6:52support this completely but there are a
6:55few important factors to consider and
6:57that's what I'm going to talk about here
6:58next so the factors involved in their
7:00affair relationship we're actually
7:02pretty interesting and there's several
7:04of them and we see here that they first
7:06want to stand out would be immaturity on
7:08both Nicole's part and on the part of
7:11Chris Watts now you get the sense from
7:14the interview with Nicole that maybe she
7:16was more experienced in relationships
7:19dan was Chris now Chris has said in
7:21interviews that he did not have a lot of
7:23experience with women even have a lot of
7:25experience with dating so he does kind
7:28of seem more naive and she seems more
7:30experienced even though she's younger
7:33so a maturity and an experience I think
7:36is one factor to consider the next
7:39factor here is they were in a passionate
7:41phase of a relationship and this is a
7:44really dangerous phase right I consider
7:47this the phase of bad decisions if you
7:50break up romantic relationships into a
7:52passionate and compassionate phase
7:54sometimes called a companion phase we
7:57see that the passionate phase occurs
7:58early and it's really characterized by
8:02again bad decisions and impulsivity and
8:04Affairs only have the fantasy that comes
8:08with a passionate phase they have the
8:10excitement they don't have any depth or
8:13meaning right so when we see we look at
8:16the evidence we see when people have
8:17affairs and I do end up together they
8:18both leave their spouses or whatever and
8:20then up together they rarely stay
8:23together because there's no depth
8:24there's no sensitivity or meaning or
8:28really purpose in that relationship
8:29affairs are shallow and again all
8:32passionate but this passionate phase has
8:36a lot of power as a matter of fact some
8:38people only want to be in the passionate
8:41phase of a relationship so when that
8:42passionate phase ends they leave that
8:44relationship and go to another new
8:46relationship they only want new
8:47relationships we see that the passionate
8:50phase is intoxicating someone has an
8:52intense longing
8:54emotional pain and we also see that the
8:57reciprocated love and this is in the
8:59research literature I'll put those
9:00references in the description of this
9:02video
9:03the reciprocated love is associated with
9:05fulfillment and ecstasy and unrequited
9:09love which here is referring to
9:11separation when people can't be together
9:13we see this is characterized by
9:15emptiness anxiety and despair all of
9:19which are actually fairly powerful
9:21motivators now usually when I use the
9:24term unrequited love I'm talking about a
9:27romantic relationship where one person
9:28believes they love the other and the
9:31other person doesn't love them back but
9:33as I mentioned unrequited love in this
9:35context is referring to separation or it
9:38could also be the thought of separation
9:40which I think could have been at work
9:42here between Chris and Nicole he was
9:45worried that they would be separated
9:46another thing we see with this phase is
9:48one person idealizes the other right so
9:51in these type of romantic relationships
9:53that are new especially in affairs the
9:56two people look at each other as being
9:58ideal and we see this really on both
10:01sides from Chris's perspective and from
10:03Nicole's perspective I mentioned before
10:06there was a lot of sex here and that's a
10:08characteristic of the passionate phase
10:10another thing I've seen about the
10:12passion of phases for people that are
10:14involved in it facts aren't really
10:16important right objective evidence and
10:19critical thinking go out the window
10:22they're really not even a part of the
10:24passionate phase especially when
10:26infidelity is involved so we see again
10:29immaturity
10:30being an experienced The Passion of
10:32phase and then the last part here of
10:34these major factors would be impulsive
10:37'ti and we see a lot of evidence that
10:39really both have some impulsivity issues
10:42but especially Chris watts
10:44he seems particularly impulsive although
10:46some would argue that he premeditated
10:47these murders and maybe he wasn't
10:49impulsive but running under the theory
10:51that he was two of the aspects of
10:53impulsivity would be negative urgency
10:55and positive urgency
10:57so negative urgency is when somebody has
10:59really negative emotions like if
11:00somebody's depressed and they act on
11:02those negative emotions and positive
11:05urgency is when somebody has
11:07positive emotions like euphoria which it
11:10seems like Chris had so if the murders
11:13weren't premeditated it would make sense
11:15that they were the product of positive
11:17urgency he had these positive emotions
11:20and he was impulsive and acted on them
11:23now there could have also been some
11:24negative urgency as well like fear and
11:26anxiety that's important to keep in mind
11:28so I've covered these factors I also
11:30want to mention this idea that it was
11:33intentional so I talked about how the
11:36manipulation or the power differential
11:39may have been unintentional
11:40so Nicole may have been really
11:42uninterested in the relationship and
11:44Chris was overly interested in that
11:46created a power differential but it also
11:48could have been intentional pressure it
11:50could have been really an ultimatum
11:51where Nicole was demanding a decision we
11:54don't see clear evidence of this stuff
11:56like there weren't any text messages or
11:58anything that I saw that indicated she
12:00was demanding he kind of decide what he
12:03was going to do but we do see some
12:05interesting searches on Google I
12:07mentioned these before another video
12:08like looking for a wedding dress and
12:09googling the search term man I'm having
12:12affair with says he will leave his wife
12:13so there could have been an intentional
12:15component or maybe not and I'll talk
12:18about that next in dynamics kind of how
12:21this could have played out either
12:23unintentionally or intentionally that
12:25created this power differential and how
12:28it may have led to these crimes so when
12:31talking about the dynamics we have to
12:33take a look at Nicole Kessinger story
12:35right her story after all this happened
12:38when she talked to police was that she
12:40was lied to and that Chris indicated
12:42that he was separating and then
12:44divorcing which is kind of typical for
12:47men and affairs like this it wouldn't be
12:49hard to imagine somebody in this
12:51situation saying that they don't want to
12:52lose the potential relationship they
12:54want to make sure they start off with a
12:56chance so they say something like oh
12:58yeah I'm getting divorced so this part
13:00of her story to me really holds together
13:02this makes sense that initially she was
13:04lied to and it more or less makes sense
13:07that she was by two on an ongoing basis
13:09well I'll talk about that a little bit
13:11the part that makes me wonder about this
13:13is that again she was searching about
13:15men leaving their wives for a mistress
13:17she indicated a text message to a friend
13:19that she
13:19always be at second place so it does
13:22seem like she was really acknowledging
13:24this was an affair but yet in the police
13:27interview she almost seems shocked and
13:31surprised that anyone would consider
13:33this an affair now she doesn't say that
13:35but it's just the impression you get
13:36when listening to I think it was a
13:38couple hours of interview this idea that
13:41she was casually in this relationship
13:43although she had some hopes about his
13:45potential and maybe she never really
13:49categorized it in her mind as an affair
13:51but again the evidence points to this
13:54idea that she did understand it was an
13:56affair so we have kind of I think mixed
13:58signals here it seems like she knew that
14:02maybe was in denial but in her interview
14:04if you listen to all interview she does
14:06appear somewhat credible now that's just
14:09listening to just this two-hour segment
14:11and that's not a lot of evidence to go
14:14on and again we have to be careful about
14:16how we weigh that evidence but one thing
14:19I think was clear she might have been
14:22credible but the clear part was that she
14:24was immature she seems to be quite
14:26immature and she was clearly trying to
14:28distance herself from the whole
14:30situation but again I think this is
14:32somewhat understandable she was being
14:34defensive because she did want to be
14:35implicated in these murders you almost
14:37get this sense from the recording that
14:39she's trying to portray herself as the
14:41victim like she was manipulated and
14:43again they were dating and not really in
14:46an affair because he was leaving his
14:48wife but it's kind of a hard sell right
14:51if we look at the evidence I'm not sure
14:53I really believe her account exactly
14:57again there was a lot of sex they spent
14:59a lot of time talking going places I
15:02find it hard to believe that she
15:04couldn't see the truth through all these
15:07various interactions now you know maybe
15:11it's one of these things where she knew
15:13or should have known right so again
15:15maybe the denial played a role and kind
15:17of blocked her from seeing the truth but
15:20I'm not sure I think that this idea that
15:22she was a victim and she was manipulated
15:24by him is somewhat believable but again
15:28it's kind of a hard sell based on the
15:30evidence we have available now which
15:32might be all the
15:33we ever get in this particular case one
15:36thing though is for certain here
15:37someone's lying so if you look at the
15:39story of Nicole Kessinger and you look
15:41at the story of Chris Watson somebody
15:44wasn't telling the truth maybe both of
15:46them worked on the truth and I think
15:48probably for most people it makes sense
15:51that Chris Watts was lying based on the
15:53fact they committed those murders so I
15:55think it in some sense makes sense to
15:58say well he was lying so we'll give
16:00Nicole Kessinger the bath of the doubt I
16:02know some people don't feel that way but
16:04if I had to pick a position if I had to
16:08really be definitive I would say that
16:10I'm more skeptical about his statements
16:13than I am about hers so with all this is
16:16kind of theory behind his motivation
16:17what happened here so of all these
16:19things were kind of truth Nicole was
16:21distant and in a position of power that
16:23was kind of artificially inflated by
16:25Chris's inexperience what was the
16:27mechanism what actually happened well it
16:30could be that he started to feel
16:31pressure he started to feel like he was
16:33gonna lose her if he didn't make some
16:35sort of bold move to break free from his
16:38family life and essentially he breaks
16:42which is consistent with this story he
16:43tells us that he snapped so again this
16:45kind of goes to whether he did snap or
16:48whether it was premeditated which is a
16:49whole nother discussion but under this
16:52theory he snaps he can't lose Nicole
16:55she's become something that is not
16:57optional to him which is a very
16:59dangerous way to think about another
17:00person when you start to think of
17:01another person as a possession that's a
17:04bad warning sign
17:05so in essence in his mind maybe he had
17:07something he could not face losing so
17:10the relationship became functionally
17:13manipulative even if it wasn't Nicole's
17:15intention to make it a negative so it
17:19was really manipulative in a sense
17:21because of what Chris was doing the
17:23self-deception which is consistent with
17:25narcissism kind of took over and led him
17:28to a very dark and tragic place one of
17:32the key mysteries in this case is why
17:34Chris selected that particular day in
17:36August it was August 13th 2018 to commit
17:39the murders why not just continue the
17:41fare indefinitely or until something
17:44happened everybody found out it would be
17:45a lot of screaming and yelling but
17:46nobody would have been killed maybe he
17:49was being pushed again internally
17:51because he put himself in a situation
17:53really really had to be with Nicole I
17:55kind of mentioned that before this did
17:57appear to be his ultimate objective so
17:59if we look at kind of theory of these
18:01murders the affair I don't think can be
18:04minimized I actually think it was a
18:06major component the affair and the
18:08mechanisms we see with immaturity and
18:11impulsivity and the passionate phase and
18:13all that combined with Chris's situation
18:15and his really poor judgment led to
18:19these crimes again we don't know this
18:22for sure but I think the affair played a
18:24major role I think when you look at this
18:27whole case you're left thinking if the
18:28affair had never happened the murders
18:30probably would not have happened either
18:32but again we can't really go back in
18:35time and change things and see what
18:36would have happened if circumstances
18:38were different so we're left trying to
18:40kind of solve this mystery and kind of
18:43think this thing through with the
18:44information we have available I do think
18:46that this case including the affair
18:48component brings a lot of interesting
18:50discussion on mental health and
18:52personality and I think it is important
18:54we understand why people commit crimes
18:56like the crimes that Chris Watts
18:59committed so I know whenever I talk
19:02about this case or really murders in
19:05general there are lot of different
19:05opinions
19:06some people may agree or disagree with
19:09me or have other opinions please put
19:11those opinions in the comments section I
19:13think this always creates really
19:14interesting dialogue as always I hope
19:17you found this descriptions of the Watts
19:18family murder and how the affair could
19:20have played a role to be interesting
19:22thanks for watching

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