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🚨😳Diálogo con Santiago Alarcón🚨🔥 - ¿Maria fue Inmaculada? — Transcript

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0:00Do you believe Mary died?
0:04>> Uh, yes. I believe Mary died.
0:05>> Okay. You just ended the debate right
0:07there by saying Mary did die. Okay.
0:11Let me ask you, if Adam and Eve hadn't
0:13sinned, would they have died?
0:16Could they have died? Would they have
0:18died if they hadn't sinned?
0:21>> No, probably not. They wouldn't have
0:22died.
0:23We don't have it defined what the reason
0:26for that life that would endure in time
0:29is, but eh no no no.
0:31No, if there hadn't been sin, they
0:33wouldn't have died.
0:33>> They died as a consequence of what?
0:36>> Of sin.
0:37>> Good. Good.
0:39Let's see what Saint Augustine says in
0:41Augustine of Hippo, Book 13, Chapter 1
0:42of The City of God.
0:45Touching on this topic. Touching on this
0:46topic. But wait, wait, wait, wait.
0:48Hold on, Cristian Izquierdo, I want to
0:50cut you off for a second because this
0:51argument is Cristian's and I already
0:53know it. It's all good.
0:54>> It's not Cristian Izquierdo's.
0:55>> The only thing I ask is let's focus on
0:57the Bible.
0:59Let's speak Bible.
1:00>> But I am touching on the topic of the
1:02Bible. I am touching on a topic from the
1:03Bible.
1:03>> No, no, but here we have to discuss
1:05biblical passages. That is all I ask,
1:08that we stick to that.
1:09>> So you're not going to let me argue?
1:13>> No, I'm not going to let you use the
1:14Church Fathers because if you don't use
1:15the Church Fathers, I also use them. And
1:17if I use them too?
1:18>> Use them. I allow it.
1:20>> What's the difference? Do you know what
1:21the difference is? That if I use the
1:23Church Fathers, you are going to
1:24diminish the importance of my argument
1:26because I don't find it in the Bible or
1:28the Church Fathers.
1:29>> That you deserve.
1:30>> No, we have to focus on the Bible. I can
1:33debate biblically.
1:35>> But the Bible doesn't have
1:36interpretations. I recently had a
1:37conversation with a Catholic and there
1:39were certain things that, well, I didn't
1:41see them as very coherent, but I think
1:43it's better to get on with someone who
1:45knows more about these topics like you,
1:47to be able to talk well, right?
1:50>> Uh-huh.
1:53>> Well, speaking about the Immaculate
1:54Conception, I wanted to start with the
1:56question of whether you believe the
1:58apostles believed in the Immaculate
1:59Conception, taught the Immaculate
2:01Conception.
2:04>> Defined as such, I don't think so.
2:06>> In what way?
2:10>> Sure, because remember that the Catholic
2:12faith develops over time; so, regarding
2:15many things that Christians themselves,
2:17not even just Catholics, many things
2:19that Christians themselves ended up
2:22defining, the apostles taught them in a
2:24very, in a very embryonic state, so to
2:27speak.
2:28So, defined as such as the Catholic
2:30Church later defines it, I don't believe
2:33with that definition. Now, the principle
2:35they taught, yes, I have no doubt that
2:37they taught it that way.
2:39>> Okay. In what way would you say they
2:41taught it?
2:43What, what, what form?
2:45>> That Mary had no sin.
2:47>> Uh-huh, that she was, uh-huh, but in
2:49what way? Any text where the apostles
2:51said, uh, something like that?
2:54In what way?
2:55>> There are references, of course there
2:56are.
2:56>> Like which, for example?
2:57>> Indeed.
2:59And you know better than I do that I am
3:01going to cite Luke chapter 1.
3:04>> Okay.
3:06It talks about, it talks about the
3:08apostles believing and teaching the
3:09Immaculate Conception or the germ that
3:11you mentioned of the Immaculate
3:12Conception.
3:14>> Yes.
3:15>> Let's see, go ahead, I would like to
3:17hear you.
3:19>> Okay, you take the Gospel of Luke as a
3:22faithful representation of the apostolic
3:24Gospel, right?
3:25>> No problem.
3:27>> Perfect.
3:29So, in the Gospel of Luke chapter 1, we
3:32find the dialogue between the Virgin and
3:34the angel.
3:36>> Mhm.
3:37>> Uh, and there are certain statements
3:39there that would seem to indicate that
3:42what is preached about the Virgin is
3:44that the Virgin had no sin.
3:47Number 1, the Virgin is presented as in
3:50a state or in a, like a, like a
3:51presentation in a parallelism—I couldn't
3:53find the word—in a parallelism.
3:57The dialogue between the angel and the
4:00Virgin intends, in some way, to be a
4:03contrast to the episode in the Garden of
4:06Eden in Genesis chapter 3; unlike the
4:09virgin Eve, who is the one that
4:11dialogued with the fallen angel and
4:14because of this friendship with the
4:16fallen angel conceived sin, the virgin
4:19Mary dialogued with the angel of God,
4:22submitting herself to the will of God.
4:26This is the first contrast that,
4:28although, I reiterate, it does not
4:30define any dogma, it does indicate an
4:32idea that the apostles intended to
4:34communicate in an embryonic state.
4:36And number two, is the famous
4:38declaration, full of grace.
4:40>> Okay, good.
4:42Well, I would like to make the
4:44distinction, right, of sin and original
4:46sin, because I can, uh, defend or accept
4:48in some other way the impeccability of
4:50Mary and that does not presuppose the
4:52Immaculate Conception of Mary.
4:54So, by saying Mary was holy, Mary was
4:57full of grace, for example, it does not
4:59necessarily follow that she was
5:01immaculate from her conception.
5:04So, I don't believe that is a text as
5:07such where you could say, here we see
5:09the seed of the immaculate conception,
5:11because, let's see, we see in the Bible
5:14different biblical quotes that give that
5:16title exclusively and only to Jesus.
5:20In fact, I have several here: First
5:21Peter, Second Corinthians 5:21, First
5:23John 3: 5, which say the only one
5:25without sin, the sinless one was Jesus,
5:27Jesus, Jesus. We even have Augustine
5:29also saying that the only one without
5:30sin is Jesus. So, I don't see how with
5:33those biblical quotes, for example—you
5:35can read it real quick—Hebrews 4:15, "
5:37For we do not have a high priest who
5:39cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,
5:41but one who has been tempted in all
5:43things as we are, yet without sin."
5:45First Peter 2:22, "who committed no sin
5:47, nor was any deceit found in his mouth
5:48."
5:49>> Sorry. If you want, let's analyze
5:51passage by passage what you are reading
5:53so we aren't just throwing out biblical
5:54texts for no reason.
5:56Number one, the Hebrews passage you just
5:58brought up, what the author of Hebrews
6:00intends to communicate is the particular
6:03case of Jesus as priest, but that does
6:05not include Mary because women do not
6:07participate in the priesthood as the
6:09author of the book of Hebrews is
6:11presenting it.
6:13The author of the book of Hebrews is
6:14speaking about the priests and the high
6:16priest.
6:16So he is not trying to teach, I don't
6:19know, whether Mary had sin or not.
6:22He is talking about the particular
6:24distinction of Christ as high priest
6:25compared to the priests of the Aaronic
6:27order.
6:28That is point number one.
6:30>> I understand that. Tell me, tell me.
6:32>> And before you continue, I just want the
6:34following if you'll allow me, it's not
6:36that I'm going to defend a stance, I
6:37just want to understand what your
6:39position is.
6:41You said, "I can accept the sinlessness
6:44of Mary."
6:45Ah, what is your position on that?
6:48I understand that you believe Mary was
6:50conceived in sin or with sin, but could
6:52you accept that the Virgin Mary did not
6:54commit sin, did I understand correctly?
6:58>> Yes, I can accept—I can accept that Mary
7:02enjoyed a special grace, that she was
7:04set apart for the ministry of bringing
7:07God, right?
7:09Into the world. And and in that way I
7:12can say that Mary was holy and I hold
7:14her in high in high esteem to the point
7:16of saying that, well, I can't say Mary
7:18was a sinner and committed personal sins
7:20in her whole life. No, I wouldn't say
7:22that. I highly appreciate Mary in that
7:24respect, but I couldn't say Mary was
7:26immaculate from her conception.
7:27>> Okay.
7:29But but beyond what you could
7:32potentially accept, what is your
7:34position?
7:37The Virgin, I already understand that
7:38you you understand that the Virgin was
7:40conceived with sin,
7:42>> Uh-huh.
7:42>> but regarding her personal actions, what
7:45is your position? Did the Virgin commit
7:48sin or did she not commit it?
7:51>> I could personally say no.
7:53I could accept that, that she didn't.
7:54That is why I would accept, in a way,
7:56her sinlessness. Sinlessness, that she
7:59did not commit uh sin.
8:01>> So to be more precise, it's not that you
8:03could accept it, you do accept it.
8:05>> Yes, yes, I mean, I'm telling you as a,
8:07as not a dogma, obviously, but yes as a
8:09personal belief, no problem. No problem
8:12. And that's why I always say that. Now
8:14, if you let me interject a quick word
8:15there.
8:16>> No, no.
8:18It was just to clarify each person's
8:20position, because otherwise, sometimes
8:22the, the Catholic's position everyone
8:23knows, but the evangelical's position is
8:26like it's a bit harder to identify.
8:28So, for there to be a dialogue in this,
8:30I also need to know what your position
8:32is.
8:32>> Yes, I I always concede this because
8:34many times they steer the debate of the
8:36Immaculate Conception to the sinlessness
8:38and holiness of Mary, for example,
8:39saying, "Tell me one sin that Mary
8:41committed in the Bible, where did she
8:43commit a sin?" I say, fine, let's save
8:45ourselves all that talk, that
8:46conversation, I say, fine, Mary didn't
8:48commit sin, done, but that doesn't
8:49presuppose the Immaculate Conception of
8:51Mary.
8:53Now then, the texts I was going to give
8:54you were explicit explicit texts where
8:56they give the category of sinless only
8:58to Jesus.
9:00My question is, could you show me a text
9:02like that which gives that title to Mary
9:05? Not as high priest, we obviously know
9:07that, but that it says so, Mary without
9:08sin, Mary did not commit sin, Mary was
9:10born without sin, something like that,
9:12for example, as with Jesus. Already with
9:13Jesus.
9:14>> But I told you no.
9:15>> Okay, it's not there, perfect. That's
9:17what I wanted to hear. So, if I see an
9:19exception to the rule, since the rule,
9:21what is the general rule, Santiago?
9:24That everyone, the whole world,
9:25everything, everything is fallen,
9:27everything.
9:28And I know that is the general rule and
9:30>> we participate in original sin, we
9:32inherit it, that is the rule.
9:34>> Exactly.
9:36And since you and I know that every rule
9:38has an exception, I see the exception in
9:40the scripture in the New Testament,
9:42specifically only in Jesus, only that
9:44exception.
9:46My question is, is that exception in the
9:49scripture for Mary just as it is for
9:51Jesus?
9:53>> Yes, I believe so.
9:54>> Like where, for example?
9:56>> Alright.
9:58I will mention three little things
9:59trying to answer your...Oh, and I want
10:01to remind you, uh, you were going to...
10:03when I interrupted you, uh, I made a
10:05clarification regarding the Epistle to
10:07the Hebrews, you were going to continue
10:08with one of Peter's epistles. If you
10:10want to throw out all the passages and
10:12we can analyze them one by one, I have
10:13no problem.
10:13>> Fine, no problem.
10:16>> So then I still have to respond to the
10:17case of First or Second Peter, I don't
10:19remember which one it was.
10:21Uh, returning to this point, remember
10:23one thing, uh, because otherwise it's
10:25unfair.
10:26Uh, we Catholics are not sola scriptura
10:29.
10:30Therefore, the topic does not require
10:32the exactness, precision, definition, or
10:35clarity that it requires for an
10:37evangelical based on the Bible alone.
10:40The Catholic is not like that.
10:42So the Catholic is not going to tell you
10:44, hey, look, I have this topic super
10:46defined only through the Bible.
10:50No. Simply what the Catholic will tell
10:52you is, I have a reasonable
10:54justification for the dogma that we
10:56embrace.
10:58Why? Because we are not sola scriptura.
11:01We don't need to follow the same
11:02methodological path to know which truths
11:04of faith a Christian should embrace that
11:06an evangelical follows.
11:09The evangelical believes that only the
11:10Bible is infallible, the Catholic does
11:12not. Therefore, I do not need that kind
11:14of exactness, definition, or clarity
11:17that you demand based on the Bible alone
11:19. Is that okay?
11:21So as a Catholic, what I say is, is
11:23there a reasonable justification to
11:25believe that the Catholic faith is
11:27definitely in harmony with the Bible?
11:30Yes, of course there is. Now, getting to
11:33the point, getting to the, to the, to
11:34the Bible.
11:35Well, number one, uh, it seems to me
11:38that those two points I mentioned are
11:41key when addressing the question.
11:45Number one, because, uh, Mary receives
11:47as a title, unlike any other example
11:49throughout the length and breadth of the
11:51Bible, "full of grace."
11:54You accept that Mary is full of grace,
11:57just as the Bible says.
12:00Furthermore, you assume that the Virgin
12:01never committed a single sin.
12:05Therefore, my question is: well, then,
12:08what does "full of grace" mean?
12:11What does "full of grace" signify? Under
12:13the criteria that you already assume to
12:16be true.
12:18On the other hand, let us remember that
12:20in this parallelism presented by the
12:22apostles, the Virgin is presented as the
12:25friend of God, unlike the virgin Eve.
12:29Why? Because the virgin Eve enters into
12:32dialogue with the fallen angel;
12:33therefore, that shows a sort of enmity
12:36on the part of the virgin Eve due to the
12:38sin and the dialogue she has with the
12:40fallen angel, unlike the Virgin Mary.
12:43Uh, the Bible says, right? That whoever
12:45makes friends with the world is an enemy
12:47of God.
12:48The virgin Eve, upon falling into sin
12:50through the dialogue she enters into
12:52with the fallen angel, enters into
12:54enmity with God.
12:55That is precisely the reason for the
12:57judgment God issues when expelling them
12:59from the Garden of Eden.
13:01With the Virgin Mary, the opposite
13:03occurs.
13:05In her, it seems that the apostles
13:07intend to explain the fulfillment of
13:09that promise from Genesis chapter 3,
13:11verse 15.
13:14Waiting for that enmity to manifest and
13:17be fulfilled that should exist between
13:20the serpent, or the fallen angel, and
13:23the woman.
13:26Evidently, that enmity does not manifest
13:28with Eve, why?
13:30Because Eve became a friend of the
13:32serpent, or the fallen angel, by
13:34entering into dialogue with him and
13:36falling into sin.
13:39There must be a woman with whom the
13:42enemy truly has an enmity.
13:45And what is the fruit of the enmity
13:46between the woman and the enemy? It is
13:49having no relationship with sin.
13:52With whom is this prophecy fulfilled?
13:55Well, evidently the author of the book
13:57of Luke seems to assume that it is with
13:58the Virgin Mary.
14:01And if the Gospel of Luke faithfully
14:03represents the Gospel preached by the
14:05apostles, this means that, implicitly,
14:07the apostles taught that the Virgin Mary
14:09had not committed sin because she was a
14:11friend of God, unlike the virgin Eve.
14:15>> Okay. What can I say? Yes, right?
14:18>> There, I would have to strongly disagree
14:20with you, because I have even heard that
14:22argument from José Placencia regarding
14:24Genesis 3:15, the protoevangelium.
14:26Well, there we can even see that it
14:28speaks of the person of the Son, of
14:29Jesus.
14:31In fact, well, the Hebrew exegetes came
14:34to the conclusion that, when
14:35interpreting from the Septuagint, they
14:38didn't interpret it well and attributed
14:40it to Mary.
14:43In fact, we can see the Ineffabilis Deus
14:45where it says that the one who crushes
14:47the serpent's head is exclusively Mary,
14:48and then we see that no; John Paul II
14:50says it is not Mary, but her lineage,
14:52that is, Christ.
14:54So, there are many contradictions, but
14:56on the point about Genesis 3:15,
14:58Santiago, I would like to emphasize
15:00something there and ask you something so
15:02that it is clear to me. Do you believe
15:04that Mary died?
15:07>> Uh, yes. I believe Mary died.
15:09>> Okay, good.
15:11Saint Augustine makes a representation
15:13about that. In fact, I'm going to quote
15:15it to you here quickly. Let's see.
15:17Let's see, here it is.
15:18>> But, but, but, but, let's take this step
15:20by step, what do you think?
15:21You said something about Genesis 3:15.
15:24Let's return to Genesis 3:15, does that
15:25seem okay to you?
15:26>> Go ahead if you want.
15:28>> Good, very good. Let's go to Genesis
15:303:15, which I think is important for our
15:32dialogue.
15:34Um, it says the following.
15:37And I will put enmity between you and
15:40the woman, and between your seed and her
15:42seed.
15:43He will crush your head, and you will
15:45strike his heel.
15:46You said something that is not entirely
15:48accurate.
15:49>> Mhm.
15:51>> You appealed to—in mentioning this
15:53passage, you appealed to a supposed
15:54confusion that exists regarding whether
15:56it was the Virgin Mary or if it was
15:58Jesus because of a translation issue,
16:00this and that. I know that such a
16:02controversy existed, but that is not my
16:04argument. You are fighting a straw man.
16:07Why?
16:08Because the confusion existed regarding
16:10the seed, which is the one who crushes
16:12the head.
16:14Who crushes the head? It is Christ, it
16:16is the seed of the woman. But notice
16:18that my argument did not go in that
16:20direction. My argument was about the
16:22enmity. My question is the following.
16:23You surely have a Bible open in front of
16:25you.
16:26>> Yes, I have it here.
16:28>> With whom, with whom is Satan to have
16:30enmity according to Genesis chapter 3
16:33verse 15?
16:34>> According to Genesis, as it says there,
16:35with the woman.
16:37>> Good. The woman is not Christ.
16:39>> No, no, no.
16:41>> Who is the woman?
16:43>> In Genesis 3:15, Eve.
16:46The woman of Genesis 3:15.
16:48>> But we are talking typologically,
16:50because if I tell you the woman is not
16:52Christ—
16:53>> Yes, it could be Mary without a problem
16:54.
16:55>> Okay. So, let's recap up to this point.
16:58You believe, you assume, you profess
17:01that the Virgin Mary did not commit
17:03personal sin.
17:03>> Mhm.
17:05>> But furthermore, you believe that the
17:08woman who has enmity and is prophesied
17:11in Genesis chapter 3 verse 15 is also
17:14Mary.
17:15>> Mhm.
17:17>> Okay, good. Eh, so it seems to me that
17:20the doors are closing for you to defend
17:21your position.
17:22>> I'll tell you why. I can tell you why.
17:24Right, because you just shut down the
17:26debate here by saying that Mary did
17:28indeed die. Okay, let me ask you.
17:31If Eve, if, if, if Adam and Eve hadn't
17:33sinned, would they have died?
17:35Could they have died? Did they know they
17:37were going to die if they hadn't sinned
17:38?
17:40>> No, probably not, they wouldn't have
17:41died. We don't have defined what the
17:44reason is for that life that would
17:47endure through time, but eh no, no, no.
17:51No, if there hadn't been sin, no, they
17:52wouldn't have died.
17:53>> They died as a consequence of what?
17:55>> Sin.
17:56>> Good, good.
17:57Let's see what Saint Augustine says. In
17:59Augustine of Hippo, book 13, chapter 1,
18:02City of God. Touching on that topic.
18:05Touching on the topic.
18:06>> But wait, hold on, hold on, hold on.
18:07Moment, Cristian Izquierdo, I want to
18:09cut you off for a second because this,
18:10this argument is from Cristian and I
18:12already know it. It's all good.
18:13>> No, it's from Cristian Izquierdo.
18:14>> The only thing, the only thing I ask is
18:16that we focus on the Bible.
18:18Let's talk Bible.
18:19>> But I am touching on the topic of the
18:21>> Bible, I am touching on a topic from the
18:22Bible.
18:22>> No, no, no, no. But here we must discuss
18:25biblical passages. That's the only thing
18:27I ask that we stick to.
18:28>> So you're not going to, you're not going
18:30to let me argue?
18:32>> No, I'm not going to let you use the
18:33Church Fathers, because if you don't use
18:34the Church Fathers, I also use them. If
18:36I also use them, no.
18:38But do you know what the difference is?
18:40Do you know what the difference is? It's
18:41that if I use the Church Fathers, you're
18:43going to dismiss my argument because I
18:45won't find it in the Bible, I'll find it
18:47in the Church Fathers.
18:48No, no, no, no, no. We have to focus on
18:50the Bible. I debate Protestants
18:53biblically.
18:54>> But doesn't the Bible have
18:55interpretations?
18:55>> Look, look. If I want to, if I want to.
18:59That is why I am asking you, please,
19:01look, I am asking you, please, to limit
19:03yourself to the framework within which
19:05you agreed to discuss this topic.
19:07It is biblical.
19:08>> Did she die?
19:08>> Let's speak only within that framework.
19:11>> As a consequence of what did Mary die?
19:12Go ahead, fine, fine, fine, fine.
19:13>> I reiterate why, I reiterate why.
19:17Because on any topic where I cite the
19:19Church Fathers, you are "sola scriptura
19:20" and you will profess that the only
19:22infallible authority is the Bible,
19:24therefore, there will be a point where,
19:26when I cite the Church Fathers, you will
19:28say that you honestly don't care what
19:29the Church Fathers say because you need
19:31to justify it with the Bible.
19:34>> You will care little when they go
19:35against you, Santiago.
19:37>> No, no, no, no, no, because the Church
19:39Fathers are precisely fathers of the
19:40Catholic Church, so in that sense, I am
19:42very calm.
19:43>> It would be in your best interest to
19:44read Saint Augustine.
19:44>> Relax, rest assured that I am very calm
19:47regarding the Church Fathers. Now, what
19:49I do ask of you, as an evangelical, is
19:51that you argue with the Bible and I will
19:53respond with the Bible. Does that sound
19:54good to you?
19:55>> Fine. Fine, except you said that was the
19:57agreement I made; I never reached that
19:58agreement, you never asked me if I could
19:59come on and only argue from the Bible.
20:01>> You asked me to—no, wait, wait—you asked
20:02me to join, and it says "Biblical
20:04Debates" in very large letters here.
20:05>> Obviously, clearly. So, do you only use
20:07the Bible here? Do you only use the
20:08Bible?
20:09>> Yes.
20:09>> Only the Bible? Okay, why did Mary die?
20:11>> Yes. Because I talk to Protestants.
20:14>> So, so look, but Santiago, Santiago,
20:15Santiago, a while ago you said, "Oh,
20:17it's just that we can't find it only in
20:19the Bible because, well, I'm not 'sola
20:20scriptura'."
20:22>> I didn't say that.
20:23>> You said, you said, "It's that I'm not '
20:25sola scriptura', my approach won't be
20:27..."
20:27>> No, no, no, no, no. I did not say, "No,
20:29we can't find it only in the Bible." At
20:32no point did that phrase come out of my
20:34mouth. I didn't say that at any moment.
20:35>> Since you are, since we are only going
20:37to talk about the Bible here, prove the
20:39Immaculate Conception to me exclusively
20:40in the Bible. Go ahead, Immaculate
20:42Conception, that Mary was conceived
20:44without original sin. Go ahead, let's
20:46see if you can.
20:47You won't be able to; you have to resort
20:49to what your church says.
20:50Now tell me, let's skip that Santiago,
20:53let's skip that. Tell me, why did Mary
20:55die?
20:55Why did Mary die?
20:57>> Look, stop, let me explain the previous
20:58point because otherwise it's like we
21:00keep jumping from one point to another
21:01and we never finish concluding a topic.
21:03Look, I I will explain the following to
21:04you. This is a space for biblical
21:06debates. Here the only thing we do is
21:08debate with the Bible, why? Because
21:10evangelicals are Bible only. Ultimately
21:12, they are Bible only. So, since I am
21:14inviting evangelicals to debate, we
21:16debate with the Bible.
21:18Now, what is the case for the Catholic
21:21Church? The Catholic Church does not
21:23pretend to justify or construct a
21:25theological argument and therefore,
21:28consequently, a dogma using only the
21:30Bible. We are also tradition and
21:32magisterium.
21:33That is why my position is that I can
21:36justify biblically every one of the
21:39beliefs that the Catholic faith
21:42professes. I can justify it.
21:44Now, I never said that I can build a
21:47case definitively because Catholics do
21:49not believe in*sola scriptura*or that*
21:52sola scriptura*is a correct doctrine.
21:55We do not define things based entirely
21:58and solely on the Bible. That is my
22:01point. Having said that, I argue the
22:03case of the Virgin Mary to you based on
22:06the Bible just as I just did.
22:08I just did it.
22:10The enmity between the fallen angel,
22:12Satan, and the Virgin Mary, which you
22:14assume means the woman in Genesis
22:16chapter 3 verse 15 is the Virgin Mary
22:18and that, furthermore, she did not
22:20commit sin.
22:22You have to answer that for me. I told
22:24you here you are closing a lot of doors
22:26for your case. Well, that's fine.
22:28Answer me how you harmonize, under your
22:31Protestant worldview, that the Virgin
22:33Mary not only did not commit sin, but is
22:36also the woman prophesied in Genesis
22:38chapter 3 verse 15.
22:40>> Right. Right. Why? Because, look, that
22:43does not mean that Mary was immaculate
22:45from her conception. That that that
22:47argument you give me, that conclusion
22:49comes from what? From an interpretation
22:52. That interpretation is not in the
22:54Bible. So, if we are going to go
22:56exclusively to what the Bible says, as
22:58you say it is biblical, you cannot bring
22:59your interpretation here, because I was
23:01trying to give you an interpretation
23:03from Saint Augustine on that quote and
23:05you didn't want to accept it.
23:07In any case, I cannot accept your
23:09interpretation, because if that
23:11exclusively and specifically means the
23:13Immaculate Conception in Genesis 3:15,
23:15that is your interpretation which, well
23:17, you have to try to prove to me, but
23:19only with an interpretation.
23:22Now, my question is simple, Santiago.
23:24>> No, no, wait, wait, wait. Let's focus on
23:26that point. I think it's fine that you
23:27pass the burden of proof to me, mind you
23:29.
23:29I accept the burden of proof. I accept
23:31it. I accept it, I accept it, I accept
23:32it.
23:33Ah, I ask, I ask the following.
23:37Does a person begin to be a child of God
23:39because they are not born as a child of
23:41God, according to your worldview as a
23:42Presbyterian, right?
23:44>> Mhm. Yes. What does that have to do with
23:46it?
23:48>> No, no.
23:49I'm just asking you because, I reiterate
23:51, I am trying to figure out what you
23:52believe, because you can know what I
23:54believe because
23:55>> that is not the topic, Santiago. That is
23:57not the topic. That is not the topic.
23:59>> Yes, you will see, you will see what the
24:00topic is. I promise you, I promise you
24:01that you will see it is the topic.
24:03>> Why did Mary die. It's just that I want
24:05to know.
24:05>> I promise you, but I promise you. I
24:07promise you it will be the topic. Rest
24:08assured. I simply want you to realize by
24:11your own means and by reasoning for
24:12yourself that you are falling into a
24:14contradiction. I'll show you very
24:15quickly.
24:16>> Just prove the Immaculate Conception to
24:17me.
24:19>> When a person is born, when they are
24:20born?
24:21Are they born a friend of God or an
24:23enemy of God?
24:25>> They are born with original sin, an
24:27enemy of God.
24:30>> Okay. If they are an enemy of God, are
24:33they an enemy of the world and the devil
24:35, right?
24:36>> Like the whole human race that is born,
24:37yes, separated from God.
24:38>> Perfect.
24:40If the Virgin Mary is the woman
24:42prophesied in Genesis chapter 3 verse 15
24:45, how can the Lord say that this woman
24:47is an enemy of the devil?
24:51If, according to you, she was born with
24:52original sin, wait, if according to you
24:54she was born with original sin, and by
24:56being born with original sin she is born
24:58an enemy of God.
25:01>> Where does it say there that she was
25:03born, that the woman was born hostile?
25:05Where does it say that?
25:05>> No, it doesn't say it, it doesn't say it
25:06, it doesn't say she was born that way.
25:08>> Exactly, so good, good.
25:09>> At what moment, at what moment does she
25:11go from being an enemy to being a friend
25:12of God?
25:13>> Here it comes, here it comes, exactly.
25:15If it doesn't say that, then if you
25:16claim you come with the burden of proof
25:18and you cannot prove that she was a
25:19friend of God from her conception, you
25:21aren't proving anything anymore; now you
25:22are shifting the burden of proof to me.
25:25No, prove to me that it talks about "
25:26exclusively" there.
25:29>> Fine, then if my interpretation isn't
25:30the correct one, if my interpretation
25:32isn't the correct one, tell me the
25:33following: at what moment did the Virgin
25:35Mary—because you told me the Virgin Mary
25:37didn't fall into sin—You told me the
25:38Virgin Mary didn't fall into sin, that
25:40she is impeccable, that she didn't
25:42commit sin.
25:44So, if the Virgin Mary is born with
25:45original sin and, according to your own
25:47words, the Virgin Mary is born at enmity
25:49with God but never commits sin, at what
25:51moment does the Virgin Mary—no, wait,
25:52wait, wait—at what moment does the
25:54Virgin Mary go from being an enemy of
25:56God to a friend of God?
25:57At what moment?
25:58>> I’m just saying it's not from her
26:00conception, because you can't prove that
26:01.
26:02You can't prove it.
26:03>> At what moment, explain to me at what
26:04moment.
26:04>> Not from her conception. Prove to me
26:06that it was from her conception. Look,
26:07look, it could be, listen closely,
26:09listen closely, listen closely, no, no,
26:11no.
26:11>> A surprise, you never expected this
26:13argument, you never expected me to go in
26:15this direction.
26:17And your own words condemned you, it was
26:19your own words that condemned you, you
26:22know why?
26:23Because you came looking for a clip, and
26:25you aren't the one taking the clip, I am
26:27.
26:27>> I’ll take it all, if you give me the
26:28chance I can upload the whole thing.
26:30If I can, if I can upload it, I’ll
26:32upload the whole thing, I have no
26:33problem. No, no, no. No.
26:35>> At what moment does the Virgin Mary go
26:37from being an enemy of God to a friend
26:39of God?
26:40At what moment?
26:41>> At any moment in her life except for her
26:43conception, no problem, except for her
26:44conception.
26:46>> At what moment? At what moment?
26:48>> No, look, the burden of proof is yours,
26:50that it has to be from her conception.
26:51You prove it to me.
26:53You said that.
26:53>> No, you were expecting this argument.
26:55You weren't expecting it, and I did it
26:57using only the Bible, I did it using
26:58only the Bible.
26:59Only with the Bible, only with the Bible
27:02. You know what's happening? Right now
27:04you want to kill yourself because you
27:06don't know what to say.
27:08So, at what moment did the Virgin Mary,
27:10at what moment did the Virgin Mary go
27:13from being an enemy of God to being a
27:15friend of God?
27:16At what moment?
27:17>> I'm going to tell you the moment. Since
27:19she said yes to God.
27:21I'll give you a moment, since, since she
27:23found grace, since she found grace
27:24before the eyes of God. Like that.
27:27Since she found grace, since she found
27:28grace.
27:29>> it goes against the Bible. But that goes
27:31against the Bible.
27:32>> since she found grace before the eyes of
27:34God. There.
27:35Since she found grace.
27:36>> from the moment she says yes. If the
27:39angel greets her. Ah, well, are you
27:41retracting your statement? Wait, wait,
27:42are you retracting?
27:43>> Yes, since she found grace. If I retract
27:45the first one, I'll tell you since she
27:46found grace.
27:46>> Okay, okay, okay. At what moment did she
27:48find grace?
27:49At what moment did she find grace? At
27:51what moment did she find grace?
27:52>> Look, you have to prove to me that it
27:54was from her conception.
27:55From before No, no, no, from before. No
27:57, no, no, no.
27:58>> according to your own worldview it makes
28:00no sense at all, and what you are trying
28:02to do now, retracting in real time, is
28:04trying to look good publicly because
28:06clearly your position is incoherent and
28:08incompatible with the Bible.
28:11Look, if you tell me that at some point
28:13she found grace, the question is at what
28:15moment, because what you said is the
28:17following, and you have to explain your
28:19worldview coherently.
28:21You say that the Virgin Mary is born
28:23with original sin, that she is born an
28:25enemy of God, but that at the same time
28:26, being an enemy of God, she never
28:28committed sin.
28:30Can you explain to me how someone who is
28:32born an enemy of God never committed sin
28:34if they are an enemy of God?
28:36>> Well, she was preserved to be able to
28:38fulfill God's plan for the world.
28:40Without a doubt.
28:41>> preserved as an enemy of God?
28:42>> Yes, she was preserved.
28:43>> She was preserved as an enemy of God.
28:45>> Let's see, Abraham was always a friend
28:46of God. No, no, no.
28:47Let's see, Abraham was always a friend
28:48of God.
28:49>> Come on, brother. Come on.
28:51>> Abraham was always No, Abraham was
28:52always a friend of God.
28:53>> with all due respect.
28:55At this moment, you are trying to change
28:57course because you don't know what to
28:58say.
28:59You know what happens?
29:00>> I am giving you an example.
29:02>> At this moment, you are demonstrating
29:04the incoherence of the Protestant
29:06worldview, which tries to adjust
29:07according to the circumstances because
29:09your position is incoherent.
29:12You never you never saw it coming that
29:15by having said that the Virgin Mary did
29:17not commit sin and having said at the
29:20same time that the Virgin Mary is the
29:22enemy of of of Satan, prophesied in
29:24Genesis chapter 3 verse 15, your own
29:27words automatically bring down your
29:29whole idea.
29:30>> The the words from my mouth lead to the
29:32conclusion that Mary was immaculate in
29:33her conception.
29:34>> No, brother.
29:35>> No, but but let's see, let's see.
29:38>> You came looking for a clip and it went
29:39wrong for you. I send you a big hug,
29:41buddy.
29:42May God bless you. See you later.
29:44>> Wait, I'm just saying goodbye. I'm just
29:46saying goodbye.
29:47I'm just saying goodbye if you want.
29:48And I thank you. I thank you for letting
29:50me come on. Uh, I think you didn't let
29:52me argue everything I brought because I
29:54had more arguments. You told me no, I
29:56respect that, it's your space. Uh,
29:57anyway, I thank you. If I disrespected
30:00you or disrespected your channel here, I
30:02apologize enormously. It it wasn't my
30:03intention. Things got heated, I don't
30:05know, but I don't know if I if you're
30:06going to upload this to YouTube, if you
30:08would let me upload it after you upload
30:09it.
30:09>> Obviously, of course I'll let you, you
30:11bet. I'm not like Edgar Pacheco who goes
30:12around reporting channels. Upload it and
30:14react to it and I I don't have any
30:16problem.
30:16>> mentions of Pacheco, nothing. Like
30:18you're trolling Pacheco.
30:19>> No, how am I going to How am I going to
30:21Sure, how am I going to disrespect your
30:23daddy?
30:24>> But but why do you mention him so much?
30:26Why do you mention him so much?
30:27>> I make you angry, brother. Because I
30:28make you angry. Because I make you angry
30:30.
30:30>> I'm very calm, you understand?
30:31>> I send you a big hug, man. May God bless
30:33you.
30:34>> a lot.

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