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Dennis Prager: The Battle Over Good and Evil — Transcript

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0:00I'm Abigail Shrier, columnist at the
0:02Free Press and senior fellow at the
0:04Manhattan Institute. And I'm honored to
0:07be here today with Dennis Prager, one of
0:10the most important and influential
0:12conservative thinkers of the 21st
0:14century.
0:15A long-time radio host and co-founder of
0:18the digital educational platform
0:20PragerU, Dennis Prager is one of the
0:23best-known public intellectuals, having
0:25published more than a dozen books on
0:28religion, morality, and the foundations
0:31of Western civilization.
0:34Generations of prominent young
0:36conservatives, including Ben Shapiro and
0:38Charlie Kirk, have identified Dennis
0:41Prager as a primary inspiration for
0:44their worldview.
0:45And he is perhaps the greatest defender
0:48of Judeo-Christian values in the last
0:50half century.
0:52For 50 years, Dennis has made a core
0:56argument: Without God, there is no good
0:59and evil, only opinion.
1:01He advanced this argument on the radio,
1:04in five volumes of biblical commentary,
1:07in more than a dozen books, and to
1:09millions of viewers through PragerU.
1:13As many of you might know,
1:15in November of 2024,
1:17stepping out of the shower, Dennis
1:20suffered a catastrophic fall that left
1:22him paralyzed from the shoulders down.
1:26Doctors have said it's a miracle that he
1:28can speak.
1:30In his first appearance after his
1:32accident, Dennis expressed not dismay or
1:35despair,
1:37but gratitude.
1:38He said, "I'm thrilled to be alive."
1:41Dennis dictated his new book, If There
1:44Is No God, The Battle Over Who Defines
1:47Good and Evil, from his hospital bed.
1:51The title is taken from the line of
1:53Dostoevsky, "If there is no God,
1:55everything is permitted."
1:58That is the central argument of Dennis's
2:01wonderful new book. That in the absence
2:03of God, we have no morality.
2:06>> [snorts]
2:06>> All we have left to guide us is
2:08feelings. Today, I am privileged to be
2:11talking to Dennis Prager about all of
2:13this and more.
2:15Dennis, it is a an absolute thrill, a
2:17delight, and a privilege to talk to you
2:19here today.
2:20I feel the same talking to you. Feel the
2:23same about the Free Press
2:26and about you specifically.
2:28Your contribution to America
2:31and [snorts] to the West, for that
2:33matter, is immeasurable.
2:35>> That's too kind. Likewise, of course.
2:38Dennis, you open your new book, If There
2:40Is No God, with a provocation you've
2:42presented to hundreds or thousands of
2:45high school students over the years.
2:48Your beloved dog and a stranger are
2:50drowning. Who do you save first? You've
2:52asked them. And you say typically that
2:542/3 of the kids, high school kids, vote
2:57against the stranger. Roughly 1/3 say
2:59the dog, 1/3 say the stranger, and 1/3
3:02typically say they don't know.
3:04And when you ask high school kids, why
3:06would you let a human being drown? The
3:09response is very consistent. They say,
3:12"I love my dog. I don't love the
3:14stranger."
3:15And I'm wondering, where have you seen
3:18in our own time feelings-based morality
3:22predominate on an important moral
3:24question? Oh, I I can give you
3:29an almost infinite number of examples.
3:32But here's one.
3:34Before Tucker Carlson
3:36became somewhat notorious
3:39for his views on Jews and Israel,
3:43I wrote a column, so there's proof that
3:46I did this
3:48years ago,
3:51criticizing him
3:53for his position
3:56that anyone who defended
3:59the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atom bombs
4:03over Japan
4:05is evil.
4:06That That's That was his word. You're
4:09evil if you defended them
4:12because killing
4:14innocents is always wrong.
4:18So, no matter how many innocent lives
4:23were saved because it ended the war
4:27was irrelevant.
4:29He felt for the innocents
4:32who were killed in Hiroshima and
4:34Nagasaki.
4:37That's a perfect example of not thinking
4:40through a moral issue and having uh your
4:45emotions
4:47dominate your thinking.
4:50But it it happens
4:52all the time. Young people especially.
4:56By the way, I should note
4:59when you note that
5:01I've asked this of
5:03predominantly high school students.
5:06I've also done it with college students
5:08but mostly high school.
5:11I've done this over 50 years.
5:14So, the high school students of 50 years
5:18ago
5:19are now in their late 60s.
5:23And it doesn't matter. I would get the
5:25same results.
5:26>> Wow.
5:28That That's the important thing to note.
5:31The only difference is
5:34when I first started asking this Oh,
5:37I've told this to very few people.
5:40You'll get a kick out of this, Abigail.
5:42>> Yes.
5:43When I first started reporting
5:46for example, I would be scholar in
5:49residence
5:51at some
5:53let's say synagogue. Later, uh even more
5:57so, churches, but in the beginning
6:00synagogues.
6:02So, I would then report,
6:04"I just want you to know
6:07that 2/3 of your children here
6:11at the synagogue
6:13or at this day school
6:15would not save the stranger
6:18first. They either don't know or they
6:22would resolutely vote for the dog they
6:25love."
6:27Oh, all the time
6:30someone would get up and say,
6:33"Mr. Prager,
6:35or I was so young, Dennis,
6:39they would say,
6:42"I don't believe you.
6:44I don't believe that 2/3 of our kids
6:49would not vote for the stranger."
6:53Now, no parents
6:56ever ever
6:58object
7:00uh to my saying that.
7:02They're proud of their kids.
7:05They're the former high school students
7:08now parents.
7:10So, the there's
7:12there's no constituency
7:15for the stranger.
7:17And of course, the answer is
7:21if you don't believe in God, and I'm not
7:24even arguing that God exists. I'm just
7:28saying, if you don't believe in God,
7:31then you don't believe that the human
7:33being is created in God's image,
7:36obviously.
7:38And that's what gives us
7:40our biblical basis
7:43for the unique value of the human being.
7:48Animals are not created in God's image.
7:52I mean it sounds as if what you're
7:53describing is that um you know uh theism
7:58uh Judeo-Christian values provide a
8:01certain kind of inoculation
8:03to a certain kind of moral foolishness.
8:06And I'm wondering as church attendance,
8:09synagogue attendance, religious
8:10identification, and belief in God has
8:13gone down.
8:15I mean is that why we're seeing the
8:17parents now not even surprised and in
8:20fact proud when their kids would save a
8:22dog over a human? Well, that's a that's
8:26exactly why.
8:28That's why I've sent in Jews all of my
8:31life.
8:33Uh you
8:36you fight for a secular America.
8:39But that's a very foolish fight.
8:43We don't want a religious government.
8:46That's correct.
8:48But we don't want a secular society.
8:52And many Jews have fought
8:55for that.
8:57And it's been
9:00a catastrophe.
9:02The 1962 verdict on school prayer in New
9:06York State,
9:08the Regents prayer,
9:10I consider that more
9:14society changing than Roe v. Wade.
9:18To me, that's the biggest one.
9:21All it was, I don't remember it by
9:23heart,
9:24but it basically was
9:27we ask thee
9:29to bless our parents, our teachers,
9:34and I I don't I don't and us. I think
9:36something like that. That was basically
9:39it.
9:40It was completely non-denominational.
9:43No mention of Jesus, no mention of
9:46Moses, no mention of anything
9:49specifically Jewish, Protestant, or
9:52Catholic.
9:54Okay, just
9:56a simple blessing.
9:59And I have now noted
10:01for many years
10:05within one generation
10:08after that
10:10prayer
10:11was declared unconstitutional,
10:15>> [snorts]
10:15>> kids
10:16went from blessing their teachers
10:20to cursing their teachers.
10:24It's a
10:25It's a phenomenal point. Um and I have
10:27to tell you when I finished your
10:28wonderful book, If There Is No God, um
10:31my first thought was I I can't wait to
10:33give this to my kids because it's so
10:35important that they read it uh for
10:37exactly the reasons you just said.
10:40And what I'm wondering is, um you know,
10:42now that you've said some of that out,
10:45what do you think would be the best
10:46counterargument that you've heard to the
10:49idea that good and evil evil require a
10:53theistic or metaphysical foundation?
10:56Well, the book is filled with
10:58objections.
10:59And I've only listed the best
11:03objections.
11:04There were no straw men that we fight uh
11:08in the book or that I fight in the book.
11:11So, people should know that.
11:14It's filled with objections.
11:17What is the best objection
11:19uh that I that I've heard to it?
11:22That
11:24well, one one that
11:26comes to mind
11:28is that
11:31belief in God
11:33uh
11:34is an emotion.
11:37So, that
11:39and this notion that
11:41you can't rely on emotions, well,
11:44neither can we.
11:46You can't if you're secular, and we
11:48can't if we're religious.
11:50Cuz it's just an emotion.
11:54And and anyway, we did I deal with that.
11:57I keep saying we because
12:00I finished the book in the hospital
12:03where I've been because of my terrible
12:06accident November 12th,
12:082024,
12:10which has left me paralyzed.
12:14And thanks to Joel Alperson,
12:16I was able to complete the book.
12:19So, that's why I say we.
12:21I don't normally refer to myself
12:24in the royal we.
12:26Just for the record.
12:28But, that would be one That would That
12:30was an example.
12:32Uh
12:33but,
12:35the the point is very very important.
12:39If you believe there really is a good
12:41and an evil, and they are not just
12:43opinions,
12:46then you are
12:49by implication
12:51affirming God's existence.
12:54That's the That's the irony.
12:56You cannot speak
12:59of objective
13:01good and evil
13:02without reference to a God. That's why
13:06in the the
13:07Declaration of Independence,
13:10the founders wrote,
13:12"We are endowed by our creator
13:16with certain inalienable rights,
13:19among them life, liberty, and the
13:21pursuit of happiness."
13:24We're endowed by our creator.
13:27Because if it's not the creator
13:30who gives us these inalienable rights,
13:34then
13:35people did.
13:37And if people give,
13:39people can take.
13:41That's exactly right. It's funny the
13:43argument that religion itself is an
13:45emotion that you set out as as an
13:47objection um
13:49seems sort of ridiculous, I think, if
13:51you're a religious person because you're
13:53constantly not able to do what you want
13:56in a religion. If you're adhering to the
13:58religion, and I thought immediately of
14:01the number of times my kids, you know,
14:03they take loshon hara, what's what's
14:05known as as, you know, as evil tongue
14:07very seriously. Their teachers in
14:09religious school and Jewish religious
14:10school have told them many times you're
14:12never allowed to say bad things about
14:14other people. And very often I want to
14:16know who did what at school, and it's
14:18very frustrating when they won't tell
14:20me.
14:21Uh well,
14:23it's funny that you should mention that.
14:26I think
14:28it's a tremendous
14:31uh virtue
14:33loshon hara that uh
14:36we have to uh watch how we speak about
14:39others
14:40behind their back.
14:42And uh certainly to their face.
14:45There's another great phrase.
14:47Who Whoever
14:50humiliates
14:51his neighbor, it's as if he has shed his
14:54blood.
14:55It's a play on Hebrew words.
14:58Uh and it's brilliant.
15:00And I I had it affected me in my speech
15:04patterns all of my life.
15:08But I think, to be honest,
15:10the
15:12the rabbis or many rabbis went a little
15:16too far.
15:17I think that a husband and a wife
15:20should be able to talk about their
15:22reactions to people they have met quite
15:26openly. And likewise kids to their
15:29parents.
15:30But in any event, I hear you. Um, you
15:34know, I think public intellectuals
15:36arguably have an obligation to address
15:38morality. And it's something you've done
15:41your entire career. And extremely
15:44successfully. And what I wanted to know
15:46is kind of a funny question, but I
15:47wanted to know is how do you manage
15:50how do you how have you managed to be so
15:52remarkably effective in in that in
15:54providing a moral framework for
15:56generations of readers and listeners
15:59without coming across as superior or a
16:02jerk or cloying? How how do you do it?
16:06You ask great questions.
16:09Well, I'll I'll tell you something I
16:12don't think I've ever stated publicly.
16:18When I was in high school,
16:20almost every
16:22kid in my class
16:25It was a class of 120.
16:27cheated on tests.
16:29>> Wow.
16:30And I started a campaign against
16:33cheating
16:35on tests.
16:37And I was eventually elected president
16:41of the graduating class.
16:45Taught me a very great lesson.
16:48That I was able
16:51to make moral demands and morally
16:54challenge my peers
16:58without coming across as judgmental or
17:02sanctimonious.
17:04It is possible. And that is if you
17:08really are.
17:10I mean, I wasn't faking it.
17:13There are a lot of wonderful kids in my
17:14class.
17:16But they had never given this thought.
17:19And so I gave them this thought.
17:22Here's another reason.
17:24I have not spent my time
17:27arguing for God's existence.
17:30I have spent my time
17:33arguing for God's necessity.
17:38We need God. That's what this book is
17:40about. If there is no God,
17:44God is necessary
17:46for good and evil to exist as objective
17:50reality, and necessary
17:53for there to be meaning in life.
17:55If there's no God,
17:57we're just
17:59a a coincidence
18:01of atoms,
18:03and we
18:06when we die,
18:08we're in oblivion
18:09for eternity.
18:11It's not a terribly meaningful
18:14argument, or a terribly great argument
18:19for a meaningful life.
18:22So I have argued for God's necessity,
18:25and I have found that to be
18:27far more effective
18:30than arguing for God's existence.
18:32It cuz even if God exists,
18:37if you don't teach the moral demands of
18:40God, it's useless.
18:42The number of people who believe in God,
18:45and who don't who don't equate God
18:48with moral behavior
18:51is is legion.
18:53It's interesting that you say that.
18:55That's that's a fantastic answer, and
18:56it's interesting you say that because
18:58the next thing I was going to ask you is
19:00about the speech you gave in 1992, on
19:02which your book is based, after the fall
19:04of the Soviet Union. And I think it
19:06really really hit home with audiences.
19:09And that was a nation, the Soviet Union,
19:12that had perpetrated tremendous evil
19:14with scientific atheism as a
19:16foundational principle.
19:18But in this century, religious people
19:21have not particularly distinguished
19:23themselves when it comes to right and
19:25wrong. And I'm thinking, of course,
19:26about things like 9/11. Every single one
19:29of the hijackers was a theist. Every one
19:32of them would have agreed with you that
19:34if there is no God, everything is
19:36permitted, but none of them would have
19:38died for their cause if not inspired by
19:41religion.
19:43And there are also huge segments of the
19:44global church that have embraced
19:46socialism, anti-Americanism, the
19:49scapegoating of Israel. And I'm
19:50wondering, what is going on here? Why
19:53doesn't having a theistic worldview
19:56provide an inoculation against moral
19:58blindness? And in the case of people
20:00like the recently deceased Ayatollah or
20:02the people who run Hamas,
20:04why doesn't why does a theistic
20:07worldview even seem to inspire acts of
20:10mass murder?
20:14All right.
20:16Another doozy
20:18from Abigail Thawyer.
20:21Remember, I speak about Judeo-Christian
20:24values. I don't speak about
20:28Judeo-Islamic
20:30values.
20:32And that's that's very important.
20:36Islam
20:38does not divide the world
20:41as
20:42Judaism does.
20:44Judaism divides the world
20:46between
20:48the decent and the indecent.
20:51To use Victor Frankl's great phrase,
20:55the only division that matters.
20:59Islam divides the world between
21:02believers in Allah
21:04and non-believers. Really, between
21:07Muslims and non-Muslims.
21:11That's a very big difference.
21:15A moral division
21:17or a
21:18theological division
21:21of humanity.
21:24As regards Christianity,
21:28it's
21:29it's a much more complex issue.
21:33Cuz they they divide between the saved
21:37and the non-saved.
21:39Uh in in a in a certain way as Muslims
21:43do between
21:44the believer and the non-believer.
21:47However,
21:50that does not give them any right
21:53to mistreat
21:55the non-Christian.
21:58On the contrary,
22:01true Christians
22:03believe
22:05that
22:06by acting bad
22:09as Christians,
22:11they give Christ a bad name
22:14and they alienate people
22:17from what they most care about,
22:19spreading the good news of Jesus'
22:23coming.
22:25You know, it was Christians who
22:27abolished slavery
22:29uh in the world.
22:32Right? The the the British
22:35British Christians by and large, but
22:37also American Christians.
22:40That's a that's a pretty big
22:41achievement.
22:43The United States of America
22:46is the greatest country
22:48or has been the greatest country.
22:50I won't get into that debate right now.
22:54Ever created
22:56in terms of giving large numbers of
22:59people
23:01freedom,
23:02opportunity,
23:05and affluence.
23:07It's an incredible achievement
23:10given that human beings are not
23:12basically good.
23:15And that again, that's Christianity.
23:18But American Christianity
23:21is
23:22self-consciously
23:24rooted
23:26in
23:27the Jewish scriptures.
23:31The
23:32only thing written on the Liberty Bell
23:38is a is a verse
23:41from Leviticus.
23:43And you shall proclaim liberty
23:46throughout the land to all its
23:49inhabitants.
23:50Chapter 25,
23:52I think verse 10.
23:55That's incredible.
23:57It's incredible for
24:00the less obvious reason that they knew
24:03Leviticus.
24:03>> Yes.
24:05How many people can quote anything? How
24:08many
24:09How many
24:11Harvard students know what Leviticus is?
24:15Forget whether they can quote anything
24:17from it.
24:18Do they even know that it's a book of
24:20the Bible? Let alone the third book.
24:23This was
24:26It has been, let's put it that way. And
24:28I I don't want to put it in the
24:30past perfect tense.
24:33This has been
24:35the one great Judeo-Christian country.
24:40And I remind Christians
24:42that without the Judeo, you have no
24:45Christian.
24:47Jesus was a Jew, the apostles were Jews.
24:51The
24:52The Gospels were written by Jews.
24:56Uh, mean, it's
24:58As I tell my Christian friends, of whom
25:02I have met very many,
25:04Jesus never read the New Testament.
25:08And they crack up.
25:10Uh, cuz it's a funny line because it's
25:13true.
25:15He only knew the Torah,
25:18the rest of the Hebrew Bible,
25:21and
25:22that's what everything
25:25comes from.
25:27At the same time, I remind Jews
25:30that without the Christian
25:32the Christian and Judeo-Christian,
25:35the Judeo would not be known around the
25:38world.
25:39It's Christians who spread the Ten
25:42Commandments,
25:44who spread
25:45Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus,
25:49Numbers, and Deuteronomy, and the
25:51Prophets.
25:53We need each other.
25:56And since Judaism does not believe God
26:00judges
26:01based on theological belief,
26:04but on behavior,
26:07the there is no need
26:09for Christians
26:11to abandon Christianity,
26:14let alone become Jews.
26:17So, the Judeo needs Christian,
26:21and Christian needs Judeo.
26:24You know, I'm wondering in the last 18
26:26months, there have been some very
26:29strange, and from my point of view, and
26:31I think yours, incredibly unhealthy
26:33developments on the American right. And
26:36I can tell you that I personally have
26:37had the thought so many times over the
26:39last 18 months, gosh, we really need
26:42Dennis Prager back to full strength
26:44right away. Uh, and and of course, you
26:48know, you know, wishing and praying for
26:49your very speedy and full recovery as
26:51quickly as possible. Um
26:54And examples of these unhealthy
26:56developments on the American right uh
26:59would include assertions that American
27:01Jews are all Israel first,
27:04that Israel was somehow involved in the
27:06murder of Charlie Kirk,
27:08that American support for Israel is
27:11being elicited by blackmail over Jeffrey
27:14Epstein's crimes,
27:16that today's Jews aren't the real Jews
27:19of the Bible, as Tucker Carlson recently
27:21suggested, and of course Tucker's
27:24Carlson's most recent claim to his
27:26millions of viewers that Chabad, the
27:29Hasidic movement within Orthodox
27:30Judaism,
27:32was somehow involved in America's
27:34decision to strike Iran.
27:37And I wanted to know what appears to be
27:39happening from your point of view. These
27:41are not ideas we saw emanating from
27:44mainstream voices on the American right
27:46for generations if ever. What is going
27:49on?
27:49Nobody knows the answer.
27:52What animates Tucker Carlson
27:56to have this
27:59If anybody has
28:01Jew first
28:03or Israel first,
28:05it's he and
28:07and Candace Owens.
28:09They're the first people they blame for
28:12whatever happens,
28:13including Charlie Kirk's murder, for
28:16example.
28:18By the way,
28:20just to give people
28:22an idea
28:24of Charlie Kirk and Jews,
28:27Charlie Kirk's
28:29last book,
28:31published posthumously,
28:33but which he finished before
28:35he was
28:37terribly killed,
28:40is Stop in the Name of God.
28:43It is an argument for keeping Shabbat,
28:47not Sunday.
28:48Friday night to Saturday night.
28:51As Jews do.
28:53He turned off his
28:55uh his cell phone
28:57for those hours. As an example.
29:02And he dedicated the book
29:05to Dennis Prager.
29:08Because he listened
29:11to all 245
29:14hours
29:15of my Torah commentary
29:18that are available.
29:20He called me almost every week
29:23for for years
29:25to discuss with me what he had just
29:27heard
29:28uh in that.
29:31We last spoke together at Arizona State
29:34University. There were tremendous
29:36protests
29:37against both of us speaking.
29:41And they spoke about how
29:43uh Charlie Kirk
29:45will speak hate.
29:47Charlie Kirk's entire half hour
29:51every minute of his half hour
29:54was devoted to making the case for
29:59Christians to observe Shabbat.
30:01>> Wow.
30:03Okay? That was his hate-filled speech.
30:08Th- Th- This guy was
30:10the opposite of an anti-Semite. He was
30:13probably a
30:15a philo-Semite.
30:17A a a lover of
30:19things Jewish.
30:22So I I can't explain Tucker
30:25or Candace.
30:28But there is I can only say this.
30:31What they are doing
30:33is
30:35dividing
30:37the anti-left right.
30:41And since the left
30:43destroys everything it touches,
30:46and that's its that's its moral record,
30:51dividing the right
30:54means allowing the left
30:56to continue
30:58its nihilistic venture
31:01throughout society.
31:03You know, what what what's interesting
31:05is that the, you know, Tucker Candace
31:07worldview that you've been describing is
31:10is so dark, it's so uh damning of
31:13America.
31:15And I wonder, what is the antidote to
31:18its growing popularity in this country?
31:21What do we do?
31:22Oh, the the antidote is courage.
31:26It's always the antidote
31:28to what is bad.
31:31People have to
31:33come out and say
31:36they're advocating
31:38bad indeed evil ideas.
31:42What
31:43Given another example,
31:46is Candace Owens
31:48in her
31:50very long dialogue
31:53with Tucker Carlson
31:55said near the end
31:58that Israel is
31:59the demonic country.
32:02The
32:05In other words, it's the most
32:07evil country on Earth.
32:10That she will never support it
32:13and so on. I mean,
32:15these are incredible statements.
32:17Israel is one of the most decent
32:19societies
32:20in the world.
32:22The accusation that it's an apartheid
32:25state and committing genocide,
32:28these are libels.
32:30They're they're not true.
32:33It
32:34The There are more
32:36Palestinians There five times as many
32:39Palestinians today
32:42as there were when Israel was founded.
32:45That's not an effective genocide.
32:49There there is no notion of committing
32:52genocide.
32:54But what are you going to do
32:57when
32:58Hamas
33:00has in its charter
33:01the eradication
33:03the annihilation
33:05of the Jewish state of Israel and its
33:08Jews?
33:10What what is Israel to do?
33:14People say,
33:15"Well, they shouldn't be
33:18bombing any civilians."
33:21Well,
33:22>> [snorts]
33:23>> as it happens,
33:25there's no way to know
33:27who is Hamas.
33:29It is a war crime not to wear uniforms.
33:35They don't wear uniforms.
33:37They wear the same clothing as civilians
33:40do
33:42in Gaza.
33:43So, there's there would be no way if
33:46Israel could
33:48pinpoint. Israel sends leaflets. We will
33:52be bombing this apartment building.
33:55Leave.
33:57How many countries have ever done that
34:00in the history of warfare?
34:03The the head of
34:05urban warfare studies at West Point
34:10and you can find this on the internet
34:12has said
34:14that Israel is the most moral society
34:18that has ever waged urban warfare.
34:22That it has sought
34:25to
34:28avoid civilian deaths
34:31at cost of their own lives.
34:35And then we were told about genocide
34:39and about apartheid.
34:41Meanwhile, in Israel,
34:441/5 of Israel
34:46are Arab Muslims.
34:49And they have
34:50all the rights that a Jewish Israeli
34:53has.
34:54And
34:56they have risen to the top.
34:59One of the Supreme Court justices
35:02was an Arab Muslim.
35:05Can you imagine a
35:06practicing Jew or any Jew on the Supreme
35:10Court
35:12of of an Arab country
35:14or of Iran?
35:16Iran mean in the meantime had a
35:19conference
35:20on uh
35:23denial of the Holocaust.
35:25I don't know if you remember that.
35:28They had a whole conference
35:30where they would
35:32give an award for
35:34the best illustrations
35:37mocking the idea
35:39that there was a Holocaust.
35:41It's hard not to, you know,
35:43think about the fact sometimes that uh
35:47Candace Owens, probably one of our the
35:49most prominent and effective
35:51anti-Semites in America or at least
35:54someone who has spread blood libel
35:55against Jews um more pervasively than
35:59almost anyone else, of course, got one
36:01of her major starts with you at PragerU.
36:05Um I I I think, you know, you helped her
36:07career tremendously in the early years
36:10when she wasn't uh splatting spreading
36:13these blood blood libels.
36:15And of course then after you, you know,
36:17Ben Shapiro um you know, you know, at
36:20the Daily Wire uh hired her and helped
36:23give her career another boost. And I'm
36:25wondering is there a sense of betrayal
36:28now? I'm sure there is. And there ought
36:32to be.
36:33I personally don't walk around with it.
36:38It's It's not that my outlook on life.
36:42But yes, of course it's a betrayal.
36:46She would answer
36:48that
36:50her values have changed.
36:53And it's not a personal betrayal.
36:55But it's rather
36:58a an alienation
37:00from the values that PragerU and
37:05and Daily Wire have.
37:08All right, so fine. So
37:10I I don't I don't personalize
37:13these matters. However, I would direct
37:17all of your uh listeners
37:20to my
37:227,500
37:24word
37:25open letter
37:26to Candace Owens.
37:29I spent weeks
37:31going through her
37:33videos
37:36and then answering
37:39some of the charges
37:41that she made.
37:43There were no attacks on her.
37:46But there it's a very
37:49important document
37:52which will leave the reader
37:55quite convinced
37:58that she's making stuff up. I had I have
38:01to tell you, when I read it, and it is
38:03it is a tremendous letter. Uh when I
38:05read it, I was struck by how incredibly
38:07generous you were to her in giving her
38:10the benefit of the doubt over and over
38:12through the letter.
38:14Yeah, because
38:17I
38:19I will gain nothing.
38:21We will gain nothing
38:23with that hominem attacks.
38:26That's why I've never called her an
38:27anti-Semite.
38:30It doesn't help.
38:33All I could say is
38:35she is spreading more libels
38:38about the Jews
38:40than anyone since medieval Christians
38:43said Jews
38:45slaughtered Christian children to use
38:49their blood to bake Passover matzah.
38:54Uh
38:55that's more effective
38:58than
38:59the anti-Semite label.
39:02In my opinion, anyway. I think that's a
39:04brilliant point, to be honest, because I
39:07have seen people in public life get so
39:10caught up on the the ridiculous
39:12question, and maybe it's not ridiculous,
39:14but very difficult to answer question of
39:17is someone or is someone not an
39:19anti-Semite? What's in their heart? And
39:21the bottom line is, and I think this is
39:23what you're saying, it almost doesn't
39:24matter what's in their heart. If they're
39:26effectively spreading libel against the
39:29Jews, they're doing significant damage,
39:32not only to Jewish communities in this
39:34country, but to the country. First of
39:35all, I don't know if we can know what's
39:37in someone else's heart. So, it it's
39:39sort of a ridiculous thing to guess
39:41about, but the other thing is, if
39:42someone is spreading libel, if they're
39:44dividing this country, if they are pit
39:46pitting
39:47Christians against Jews, which I believe
39:49many public figures at this point are
39:51doing, especially in the broadcast
39:53world, if they are doing those things
39:55and spreading blood libels, it it
39:57doesn't matter whether they are
39:59technically anti-Semites or they're just
40:01doing it for for personal gain. The harm
40:03is real.
40:04Exactly. That's true for everything. I
40:07don't care what's in your heart.
40:10I care what's in your deeds.
40:13That's one of the great Jewish
40:14teachings.
40:16That it's it's the action that counts
40:20in in all of the laws of the Torah. 613
40:26The only one I can think of
40:29that
40:30forbids a thought
40:33uh is the 10th commandment.
40:36Do not
40:39How shall I translate it? Yearn after
40:43your neighbor's house.
40:46Your neighbor's spouse.
40:48Your neighbor's
40:51donkey, etc.
40:54And that's
40:56that's a very good one.
40:59You see, there's no ban
41:02on
41:03lusting. A lot of people think the 10th
41:07commandment bans lusting.
41:10Uh there's no ban
41:13on envy.
41:15It's not about envy.
41:17It's about wanting
41:20to take away what my neighbor owns.
41:24That's that's the key thing.
41:27And that leads to bad stuff.
41:30That's the one thing you should monitor.
41:33But otherwise, yes, it's the deeds that
41:36matter.
41:38Anyway, when people say
41:41"So-and-so is not an anti-Semite."
41:43What they mean is "So-and-so doesn't
41:46hate all Jews." Right. You're right.
41:50I don't know. Uh
41:52There were very few Nazis who hated all
41:55Jews.
41:56Uh there's a famous
41:59speech that Himmler,
42:01one of the architects of the Holocaust,
42:04gave in Poland to the SS.
42:08And he said, you know, "If we listen to
42:11you,
42:12we would not be killing all these Jews
42:15cuz [snorts] every one of you has a Jew
42:17you like.
42:19It's It's actually a famous speech.
42:22So,
42:23it's it's not worth getting into that
42:27debate
42:28on whether they're an anti-Semite.
42:31All I can say tell you is
42:34anti-Zionism
42:36is as bad as anti-Semitism.
42:40And here is my analogy which I've given
42:44for a half a century.
42:47If somebody says
42:50"You know, I love Italians.
42:53I love Italian culture. I love Italian
42:56opera. I love Italian architecture. I
43:00love [snorts] Italian art.
43:02But I don't think Italy should be
43:04allowed to exist. Italy should be
43:08destroyed."
43:10What would you say
43:12that this is a an an Italian lover?
43:17>> [snorts]
43:18>> This is what the anti-Zionist says. "Oh,
43:21I don't hate all Jews.
43:23And I recognize
43:26Jewish contributions
43:28etc. etc.
43:30But I don't think the Jews should be
43:33allowed to have a state.
43:36Even if the state is the size of New
43:39Jersey, it should be eradicated."
43:43Okay?
43:44That's the same thing as the Italian
43:47analogy. I want to switch for a moment
43:50um to talk about present day and
43:53specifically more personally the
43:55catastrophic accident uh that caused you
43:59to be uh paralyzed from the shoulders
44:02down. Uh the near-fatal injury to your
44:05spinal column. And I want to know,
44:07Dennis, do you ever ask, "Why me?" Has
44:11your accident ever shaken your faith in
44:13God? I wrote a book in 1998
44:18about happiness.
44:21And I am happy to say
44:24not one idea of that book
44:28as a cause
44:30has my catastrophic accident
44:33caused me to modify.
44:37I have told people
44:40that if things are going well for you,
44:44you should ask, "Why me?"
44:47Just as if things go bad for you,
44:50you may want to say, "Why me?"
44:53And
44:55uh
44:56I had a great life.
44:58I I I said to my wife,
45:01every [snorts] single day,
45:03"I can't believe how lucky I am."
45:09Also, I
45:11as I wrote in my book,
45:13since my junior year in college,
45:16which was in England,
45:18my professor of comparative religion,
45:21man named Trevor Ling,
45:24who was a convert to Buddhism,
45:27told the class one day
45:29that Buddhism's answer
45:32to pain
45:34was to recognize
45:37that all pain comes
45:39from desires
45:42and expectations
45:44that are unfulfilled.
45:47And
45:48I immediately rejected half.
45:51I think we need to have desires.
45:54I mean, [snorts] I desire health.
45:57I desire happiness.
45:59I desire freedom.
46:01I desire to conquer cancer. I mean, I
46:05have a lot of desires.
46:07Without desires, nothing good will
46:09happen.
46:11But,
46:12immediately
46:15that day
46:16I stopped having expectations.
46:20And I I therefore
46:23never expected
46:25that nothing terrible would happen to
46:28me.
46:29It never
46:30occurred to me.
46:32And as I wrote in the book,
46:35since
46:36gratitude
46:38is the mother of happiness,
46:41there were no happy ingrates. Wow.
46:45Correct?
46:46>> Yes.
46:47Therefore,
46:49that which
46:52undermines
46:54gratitude
46:56undermines
46:57the possibility of happiness.
47:01And having expectations
47:04undermines gratitude.
47:07If you expect good things to happen, you
47:10won't be grateful for them.
47:13We're grateful
47:14for what we don't expect.
47:18Likewise,
47:19if we
47:21don't expect
47:23anything bad to happen,
47:26and and it does, that really shatters
47:29gratitude.
47:31So, I have had no expectations.
47:36I am living
47:38unfortunately,
47:40I am living proof
47:43that my theories are right.
47:47And that's that's that's my answer
47:50to your question. It's beautiful. That's
47:53amazing. Let Let me ask you one last
47:55question.
47:56Um you know, you've been in public life
47:58since you were in your 20s. You've
48:00inspired so many, you know, thinkers and
48:04continue to inspire so many.
48:06And you were one of the few fir- first
48:08people to talk about the Soviet Jewry in
48:11the United States. And I was wondering
48:13when you look back on this long
48:16experience in public life, an incredibly
48:19successful career,
48:20what are you proudest of? My choice of
48:23bike.
48:24Current wife. Oh, that's beautiful.
48:28That's amazing.
48:29Yeah, I'm very proud of that.
48:31>> Why? It took me
48:33took me 3 minutes.
48:35It's a great answer. Thank you so much,
48:38Dennis. Um, it was all It's always an
48:40honor and a pri- privilege and a delight
48:42to talk to you. And we wish you a It is
48:45a full and speedy It's comp-
48:48Thank you. It's completely mutual. Thank
48:51you.

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