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Democrats don't know how to fix America’s spiritual crisis | The Gray Area — Transcript

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0:00Do you really think the right is better
0:01at diagnosing [music]
0:04the spiritual crisis?
0:05>> I think they spend a lot more time
0:07thinking about it than we do. I think I
0:09think the left has become pretty
0:11technocratic and and and convinced that
0:14our job is to just move the needle on
0:19indicators, unemployment, test scores,
0:22GDP, numbers of factories opening or
0:24closing. I I I'm not in a lot of rooms
0:28where
0:30people on my side of the aisle or my
0:31side of the political spectrum are
0:33talking about the ways that people feel
0:35and I do, I mean having spent time
0:37[music]
0:38you know listening to some of these guys
0:40and and
0:41and how they write and what they think.
0:42Yeah, I guess I do think that they for
0:43the over last 10 years have been better
0:45than the left.
0:49>> [music]
0:55[music]
1:05>> Senator Chris Murphy, welcome to the
1:06show.
1:06>> Thanks for having me.
1:08>> Happy to be here. Happy to have you.
1:10Okay, so let's um
1:12let's get right into the book, right? I
1:14mean this is um
1:16it's not really a policy book, though
1:18there is some policy in there. Um
1:20this is much more of an attempt to
1:23describe
1:25a deeper malaise or spiritual sickness,
1:28whatever you want to call it in the
1:29country. Um
1:30how would you describe that? Let's just
1:32start there.
1:33>> Yeah, I I I think this country is less
1:36happy than it has been in a long time. I
1:38think it's more lonely than it has been
1:40in a long time and I think fewer people
1:43wake up every morning knowing what their
1:44their meaning, their purpose, their
1:45identity is.
1:47Um
1:48and I think there's all sorts of signs
1:51of that, growing rates of political
1:53instability, growing rates of self-harm,
1:56more kids showing up in our emergency
1:57rooms than ever before and just lower
2:00rates of self-reported happiness on
2:02surveys.
2:03You could say that that's not something
2:04that government should concern itself
2:06with, but in fact, we're celebrating 250
2:09years of the Declaration of Independence
2:11and in that document it actually says
2:13that government is supposed to guarantee
2:16people the right to pursue happiness.
2:18Maybe we're not supposed to provide you
2:20with the last mile on that road, but
2:22we're probably supposed to provide you
2:24with access to the things that you need
2:26to be happy. And as I study, you know,
2:28why people seem to be less happy, more
2:31lonely, more exhausted, it seemed to me
2:34that there was a lot of government
2:36responsibility. We've set up a system of
2:38rules and
2:40norms in this country that make it a lot
2:42harder for folks to be happy. And so, as
2:44a, you know, as a politician who spends
2:46all his time thinking and
2:48working to oppose Donald Trump, I wrote
2:51the book because I just
2:54I think it'd be a mistake to just think
2:56our problems are electorally. There is a
2:57deeper spiritual rot in this country.
3:01>> We'll talk about the material conditions
3:03that gave rise to this, but I mean
3:05ultimately is all of that to say that
3:06really
3:08and we can reach all the words we want
3:09to try to capture the problem, cultural,
3:11spiritual, whatever.
3:12But is all of that to say that this is
3:14really a problem that goes beyond mere
3:17politics?
3:18>> Of course.
3:20You know, this is, you know, probably
3:22more a cultural problem than a political
3:25problem.
3:27But you know, I do think that the the
3:31rules and norms that have caused people
3:35to feel
3:36empty
3:37often have caused people to retreat from
3:39communion, right? Where we're spending
3:41half as much time today, you know, in in
3:44person connection with friends and
3:46family as we did a generation ago.
3:48I think a lot of that is due to the
3:50rules that are set by governments. So,
3:53um
3:54I don't know that I'd say that it's
3:55beyond the scope of policy. Actually, I
3:57think that policy has a lot to do with
3:59it, but I think you first just have to
4:01understand how people are feeling, why
4:04they're feeling those ways, and once you
4:06do that, then I think you can match
4:08policies to meet um those maladies. My
4:12My argument here is that Congress
4:15politicians writ large just don't spend
4:17a lot of time doing a spiritual
4:20metaphysical diagnosis of the country,
4:22and I just don't think we're doing our
4:24work if we aren't first asking, like,
4:26what do people need to feel more
4:28fulfilled and happy in their lives? And
4:30it turns out that the answer is probably
4:32not a higher GDP or higher test scores
4:35for their kids.
4:36>> It's interesting. I've I've lived all
4:38over the country, including DC, but I'm
4:39from the deep south, the Gulf Coast.
4:41That's where I live now. Um and my
4:43politics are kind of weird in lots of
4:45ways, but I'm I'm more on the left than
4:48a lot of people around me. But when I
4:50engage with Trump voters, and there's a
4:51lot around me,
4:53um what I find deep down, if you can
4:55kind of get past the
4:57um Fox News culture war and
5:00really drill down, what you find is
5:03they won't They may not use this kind of
5:04language, but you find that people don't
5:06feel like they have a sense of agency
5:08anymore. Um now, I would say they're
5:11they may be confused in many cases about
5:12the causes of that disillusionment, but
5:14that is the general feeling.
5:17Um do you think that is something that
5:18that goes across all the partisan and
5:22ideological lines that typically,
5:24you know, map us up?
5:25>> Yeah, when it comes down to it, I you
5:27know, I'm making the case in this book
5:29that that there are two things
5:31of many, but two primary things that
5:33people need to feel
5:35purposeful and to feel happy and
5:37fulfilled. Um
5:38the first is connection. Um You need to
5:41feel like you have people in your life
5:43that care about you. You need to feel
5:44connected to a community. You have to
5:46have a sense of belonging to something.
5:48Um secondly, you need to feel powerful.
5:51Um
5:52people when they wake up in the morning
5:53want to believe that the inputs um will
5:57match the outputs and that they don't
5:59feel powerful today. I think that's
6:01particularly acute amongst men who are
6:03going through this broader crisis of
6:05masculinity in the face of the
6:08the rightful rise of feminism, but it
6:10hits them even harder when they at the
6:12same time have both lost their natural
6:14position of primacy um
6:17in the modern world and they also um
6:20can't work hard and get ahead. They they
6:22feel really powerless. And yes, this is
6:25an economy that is intentionally
6:26designed to not give people a sense of
6:29agency and power. Um that's, you know, a
6:32big part of the book.
6:34>> In a liberal pluralistic society like
6:36ours where we do not agree about what's
6:38fair, uh what's just, or what's even
6:42worth valuing or wanting, um or we don't
6:45agree about what it means to pursue
6:47happiness, where do you think the common
6:49good, that's your phrase, common good,
6:51where do you think that comes from? What
6:52is the basis of that?
6:55>> Yeah, I mean, I obviously de Tocqueville
6:56was all over this book and he he he
6:58worries deeply about that question,
7:00right? This this is a country filled
7:02with strivers, right? People from
7:04different backgrounds speaking different
7:05languages. What on earth is going to
7:07hold them together?
7:08Um
7:09he has two answers. He his first answer
7:11is democracy, right? Everybody is going
7:13to feel like they um have a role to play
7:16in the setting of rules and norms and so
7:19they're going to set aside their
7:20differences and work together in that
7:22common project of democracy which felt
7:24so new and wild at the time. Second, he
7:27says church, right? You
7:28you know, which maybe is a
7:30code for institutions, right? There are
7:32going to be places where you can find
7:34meaning and identity um
7:36that um allow you easy access to
7:39connection, communion, um and meaning
7:41each day.
7:43Um, our democracy is withered, it's
7:45hurt, it's badly damaged, and people do
7:47not feel like they have a role to play
7:49in our democracy because billionaires
7:51and millionaires have such control. And
7:54church specifically as an institution
7:56has
7:57become a less healthy place. Just not as
7:59many people are showing up, but other
8:01institutions aren't available either.
8:04And so I think I sort of, you know, look
8:07at de Tocqueville and say,
8:09um,
8:09okay. Uh, what can we do to make
8:12democracy healthier so that people feel
8:14like that is a common project that they
8:16can engage in? And what about
8:19institutions? What about the things we
8:21can do to make people
8:23find a sense of belonging in an
8:25institution or other places where people
8:27might find easy identity?
8:30>> Yeah, you know, that's de Tocqueville is
8:31such an interesting character. Um, you
8:33know, and there's a critique of
8:34liberalism that I think a lot of people
8:36on the left avoid because people
8:40we don't like often make it.
8:42But it's not obviously wrong. And it's
8:44that, um,
8:46you know, liberalism gives people
8:47freedom, but it does not tell us what
8:49the freedom is for. And if nothing else
8:52fills that space, those de Tocqueville
8:54intermediary institutions, religion,
8:55community, family, civic life, all of
8:57that, then
8:58markets and algorithms and demagogues
9:01and I guess now AI will do it for us. I
9:03mean, do you agree that that vacuum, for
9:05lack of a better word, is,
9:07um, a real vulnerability of liberalism?
9:09Maybe even a fatal
9:11>> Yeah, I I do. You know, I saw about four
9:13or five years ago that the the new
9:16right, you know, that J.D. Vance was a
9:18big part of,
9:19was doing a a much more interesting
9:22critique of the spiritual state of the
9:25country than the left was. And they
9:27seemed to be crafting policies that
9:28answered the way that people were
9:30feeling empty,
9:31feeling that liberalism had pitted them
9:33against each other.
9:36And and so yes, uh, book, you know,
9:38clearly comes from, you know, my own
9:40recognition that liberalism more broadly
9:43was failing Americans. And you know, I I
9:46I think that that's
9:47I think that that's um, inevitable in
9:49some ways because we are solidaristic
9:53creatures. We are a solidaristic
9:54species. We survived thousands of years
9:58because we found a way to group
9:59together. We we have selflessness in our
10:02biology and I give sort of, you know, a
10:04bunch of anecdotes and evidence in the
10:06book about, you know, why we know we
10:08actually, um, want to be selfless, that
10:10we want to exist in groups, we don't
10:13want to be viewed simply as individuals.
10:15And I don't think that, you know,
10:17classical is liberalism has, you know,
10:20ever been able to understand that that
10:22spiritual health comes, you know, not by
10:24freedom. Um,
10:26spiritual health comes, um, through
10:29communion and a sense of belonging to
10:31something bigger than ourselves.
10:33>> Well, the liberal counter
10:35is always to say, well, liberalism isn't
10:37supposed to,
10:38um, provide meaning in that way. It is
10:40supposed to protect the spaces where,
10:43you know, unions and communities and all
10:45those institutions can fill that gap and
10:47provide the meaning. But, uh, and you
10:49know this,
10:50um, we have kind of destroyed those
10:52institutions. We have surrendered every
10:54aspect of life to market logic.
10:57Uh, and so we don't really make citizens
10:59anymore.
10:59>> Yeah, and and and, you know, we are
11:01whether we're in an oligarchy or close
11:03to an oligarchy. Um, you know, when you
11:06structure an economy in which,
11:09um, the people who are powerful,
11:12um,
11:13profit by the disintegration
11:17of the broader populace, uh,
11:20it becomes hard for liberalism to work
11:22because, you know, for instance, the
11:24people that are running our big
11:26technology companies, which, you know, I
11:27I
11:28I think it's hard to over-hype how much,
11:31um, of this story of spiritual rot is
11:34connected to the rise of social media
11:37and AI, and television, and the internet
11:39more generally.
11:40The people who control those
11:41technologies,
11:44you know, write the rules. And
11:47those technologies, unregulated or
11:49unprotected,
11:51make it really hard for free individuals
11:54to find companion.
11:56>> But despite all those flaws, I mean
11:57you're still
11:59a proud small L liberal, yeah?
12:01>> Yeah, no, I I I think the project can
12:03still work. I I I think that you just
12:05need to come up with a different set of
12:08rules that guards against the influences
12:11that push people into lives of of
12:13isolation.
12:15>> All right, let's deal with Trump.
12:17Because I think we both see him as a
12:18symptom, or as a symptom.
12:19>> Yep.
12:21>> And there's a lot going on with
12:22Trumpism, race, and history, and
12:25cultural identity. These are all big
12:27pieces, but um
12:30on some level, this is a guy who gave
12:33millions of people a story.
12:35>> Mhm.
12:35>> And it worked. It got him elected,
12:37twice.
12:39How do you, a sitting Democratic
12:41Senator, make sense of that story? How
12:43does it fit into the story you're
12:45telling in this book?
12:47>> Yeah, I I mean I certainly give him
12:49credit in this book for better
12:52understanding where people are
12:55emotionally in this country than the
12:56left. And I, you know, put I give a
12:59bunch of examples where, you know,
13:00things that he has said sound
13:03ridiculous, sound nativist and racist,
13:06and many of them are, but they are
13:07speaking to Americans in a spiritual
13:10way.
13:11I I also think we should give him credit
13:13for creating a sense of belonging. So,
13:15he gives them a narrative to understand
13:18why they are powerless, and a route to
13:20power.
13:21It is It is wrong, it is racist, it is
13:24xenophobic, but it's a narrative. But he
13:26also gives people a sense of belonging.
13:27I mean, that's what MAGA is. It's a It's
13:30a community for for many people. It's a
13:32source of identity. Um but what is he
13:34doing in, you know, his talk about
13:37putting up a
13:38wall with Mexico or these giant
13:41superficially unpopular tariffs
13:44um
13:45with other countries? He's He's saying,
13:47"Listen, we're not powerless, right? The
13:48government has seemed to have been
13:50powerless in the face of mass migration,
13:52in the face of jobs being outsourced.
13:54I'm going to tell you it's not
13:55powerless. It We collectively can do
13:58things to control who comes into this
14:01country. We can, together, collectively
14:03do things to stop the outsourcing of
14:05jobs."
14:06Um and and that narrative of power, in
14:08this case government having actual
14:10agency over forces that felt
14:12uncontrollable, um that speaks to people
14:15who had kind of given up on government
14:17being able to be powerful. And if
14:20government couldn't be powerful, then
14:21maybe it's justified that I'm powerless.
14:24I think you have to you have to sort of
14:26understand um
14:28his power narrative. And then last, I
14:30you know, he is telling a story of who's
14:33screwing you. You know, you are
14:34powerless because of immigrants, of
14:36Muslims, of drag shows, of gay children.
14:39Um
14:40and that's that's obviously a false
14:42narrative, but people want to know why.
14:44People want to know why I have been left
14:46to feel this exhausted and this alone.
14:48And he's telling you why. Um Democrats,
14:52the left broadly, has been, you know,
14:54with the exception of the the Sanders
14:56movement, has been, you know, unwilling
14:59or uninterested in a competing
15:01narrative.
15:02>> And he just tells a very simple story.
15:04Something happened to you. Something was
15:05taken from you. This is who did it, and
15:07I'll make them pay for it. I mean,
15:09that's that's not That's not a lot of
15:10spiritual wisdom in that, right? It's
15:12just here's your enemy, and and I'll
15:13make them
15:14pay.
15:15>> Yeah, you but but it does speak to, you
15:17know, something that's deeply
15:18biological. I mean, we
15:20We We We We as it kind of go back to
15:22this narrative of of why we're still on
15:24this earth. We're on this earth because
15:26we're solidaristic, because we join
15:27together with others, but because we
15:28fear people different from us. I mean,
15:31so when somebody says, "Your problems
15:33are because of folks with a different
15:35skin color than you." That speaks to
15:37something that's you know, that's that's
15:39biological. But, I I I think that you
15:41know, there's um there's a silver lining
15:44here in our failures as as a broad sort
15:48of left movement to compete with this
15:50storyline. It's that there's a true
15:52story of who is causing you to become so
15:59uh adrift and and and and why you have
16:02this sense of powerlessness. And it's
16:04concentrated economic power. It is the
16:07corporate class and the billionaires who
16:09have developed a set of technologies
16:11that has broadly harmed us culturally
16:14and who have constructed an economy
16:17which um has a very low floor, a very
16:20low safety net that that has compromised
16:23economic mobility.
16:25>> Do you really think the right is better
16:27at diagnosing
16:29the spiritual crisis?
16:33>> Yeah, I mean, I think they spend a lot
16:35more time thinking about it than we do.
16:37I think I think the left has become
16:39pretty technocratic.
16:41And and and convinced that our job is to
16:44just move the needle on indicators. Um
16:49unemployment test scores, GDP, numbers
16:52of factories opening or closing. I I I'm
16:55not in a lot of rooms
16:58where
16:59people on my side of the aisle or my
17:01side of the political spectrum are
17:03talking about the ways that people
17:05that people feel. And I do, I mean,
17:07having spent time you know, listening to
17:09some of these guys and and
17:11and how they write and what they think,
17:13yeah, I guess I do think that they for
17:14the over last 10 years have been better
17:16than the left.
17:17>> Yeah, I mean I guess some of this hinges
17:19on what we mean by the right.
17:21>> Yeah.
17:21>> I think the problem for me
17:23um and the frustrating thing for me is
17:25and you can you know I'd be curious what
17:26you think about this. I think the left
17:28is better at [snorts]
17:30diagnosing the material roots of the
17:33crisis. I think the right is better at
17:35obscuring those roots and offering fake
17:38solutions to non-problems. It was the
17:40right who told working class people the
17:42problem wasn't corporate greed, right?
17:44It was the welfare queens and their
17:45Cadillacs. It was the right who said
17:47it's not deregulation and corruption and
17:49the destruction of unions. It's the It's
17:51the illegals taking your jobs, right?
17:53It's the same playbook over and over
17:55again. I don't know
17:57if they're really diagnosing a spiritual
17:58crisis there, right? They're just
18:00stoking resentment.
18:02>> Well, but I I mean they understand
18:04better than the left that
18:07humans need a narrative, right? Humans
18:09Humans want to hear
18:12the why, right? They don't want to just
18:15hear the what, they want to hear the
18:16why.
18:18And it just makes you feel better to
18:19know why this is happening to me, that
18:21it wasn't my fault, right? That it was
18:23someone else's fault. And again, with
18:25the exception of
18:27Bernie and AOC, there's not a lot of why
18:30There hasn't been a lot of why. We have
18:32viewed the people who do the why as
18:34fringe political threats to the left,
18:37not as mainstream messengers.
18:40>> The over-reliance on technocratic mush
18:42or however you want to put it, where
18:44does that come from? Why is that a Why
18:45is that a democratic thing?
18:47>> Yeah, it's a good question. I don't I
18:49don't know why that the what the origin
18:51of that is.
18:52Um
18:53and this is getting a little bit too
18:54into political weeds, but I do think as
18:56a party we became
18:57uh you know, a little bit too reliant on
18:59Obamaism.
19:01Um
19:02Obama succeeded despite a lack of
19:05narrative because he was just a
19:08generationally uniquely talented
19:11political figure. And so he was a
19:12technocrat. He was not willing to pit
19:14one group against each other. He wasn't
19:16going to blame the billionaires and the
19:18corporations.
19:19Um but he was successful because of his
19:22just unique once-in-a-generation
19:24personal magnetism. And And I think we
19:26thought broadly that well, that was
19:28going to be our future that we had this
19:30new coalition that was going to be
19:33constantly resistant to the demagoguery
19:35on the right. And somebody else like
19:37Obama would come along. I think we just
19:40missed the fact that
19:41um without Obama, we actually do need a
19:43narrative and we never developed a
19:46a persuasive one.
19:47>> I know there are people who will hear
19:50the premise
19:52of the book and say, "Well, hold on,
19:54Senator. Wait a second. Democrats aren't
19:56failing because they refuse to offer
19:58people
19:59meaning. And it's not that Republicans
20:01are better at giving people the things
20:03they need to live a more meaningful
20:05life. That's for damn sure. They're just
20:07lying to people, right? They're just
20:08giving them scapegoats."
20:10>> Um so how do you answer that? Yeah,
20:11they're telling a story. So what is the
20:12answer? Just tell a better story?
20:14>> Well, but
20:15if the better story is true,
20:18um then shouldn't we have confidence in
20:20that it makes it easier to unmask their
20:23false story?
20:25I mean, I guess that's just the basic
20:26premise. And I might be wrong, right? It
20:28might be that that their narrative
20:31um is always going to be more pungent
20:32than ours, but we're we're not even
20:34trying to tell an alternative narrative.
20:38And I think
20:39our narrative is strong,
20:41that concentrated corporate power is
20:43doing this to you, um that the
20:46normalization of corruption in our
20:47government is an extension of the
20:49corruption of our economy. Um if we did
20:52that narrative well, I think it would
20:54I think it would win. Um we're not By
20:56the way, we're not that far away from
20:58winning, right? I mean, the Trump and
21:00his movement don't win these elections
21:01by enormous margins. So if we just, you
21:03know, did a 10% better job at selling a
21:06narrative to people about why they feel
21:08powerless,
21:09I I we we'd be in a lot better shape.
21:12>> I mean, I take your question in good
21:13faith and I and I don't have a good
21:14answer, right? Like does it matter if
21:16the story is true?
21:17>> Yeah, I don't I don't know, but but you
21:19have to have a you have to have a story
21:21and as I talk about at the end of the
21:222024 election, you know, Harris I I'm
21:26not somebody that Monday morning
21:28quarterbacks her race. She was in such a
21:29tough spot, but she kind of has a choice
21:31to make at the end, you know, whether
21:32she ends the race with, you know, union
21:35leaders by her side with Bernie Sanders
21:38or whether she ends the campaign with
21:39Mark Cuban.
21:41Um and she ends the campaign with Mark
21:43Cuban. She basically says, "No, I'm I'm
21:45I'm not going to tell you a story of how
21:48concentrated corporate power is making
21:50you feel alone and powerless. I'm not
21:52going to take on the tech companies on
21:53my in my closing argument." Um and I I
21:57think that was a mistake and I think
21:58it's a mistake that we are uh you know,
22:01potentially
22:02um destined to repeat.
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23:14People act like Democrats don't they're
23:16not out there using moral language
23:18you know, but that's just not true. I
23:20mean there there's several examples just
23:21in the Senate alone.
23:23But Dems do seem to have a harder time
23:25turning those moral claims or that moral
23:28outrage into a
23:31compelling story for reasons that
23:34probably go beyond the stuff we were
23:36just talking about and there's like a
23:37lot of rhetoric from your side about
23:40justice, democracy, rights, fairness,
23:42dignity. Um community, meaning. I mean
23:45the ingredients are there on paper. Why
23:47do you think it's not quite landing with
23:50the people you needed to land with?
23:51>> Well, I I think because and and and
23:54listen, I'm not sure of this. Um
23:56uh but my sense is that most of our
24:00values rhetoric is around those first
24:02words.
24:03Um fairness and justice. Yeah. Um and I
24:06do not think in my experience that that
24:09is the first
24:12sort of moral on-ramp for people into
24:15our politics. Um I think they are
24:18thinking mostly about power and agency
24:21because that is literally what they
24:22don't have when they wake up in the
24:23morning. Um and they are
24:26and and and you know, we know that
24:29community and belonging is so important
24:31to people. We've never really talked
24:33about that as much. Um but I think if
24:36our values conversation was more rooted
24:39in power, agency, community, and
24:41belonging, um we would be much more
24:43connected to where people are
24:45emotionally. I think people care about
24:47fairness and justice. Um
24:50but I don't think that that's the
24:52primary place that they go.
24:54>> The elephant in in room here is the
24:56perception, right, of the Dems as a
24:58party that has become too
25:02culturally progressive for much of the
25:04country. And some of the woke stuff is
25:05overplayed,
25:07but it's not all made up. I mean, do you
25:09see this as a real problem for the
25:11political project you lay out in the
25:12book on getting over this so that people
25:14hear what you're saying?
25:15>> Yeah, I certainly make the argument in
25:17the book and I've made it to my party
25:20with limited success over the last
25:21couple years, um, that we do need to
25:23become a bigger tent party. I I I don't
25:26think the party needs to moderate itself
25:29on social and cultural issues. I I think
25:31the worst thing you can do as a
25:32politician is to say you believe
25:34something that you don't believe, right?
25:35I mean, we we as Democrats broadly
25:37believe in, you know, equal rights for
25:39everybody, no matter what your sexual
25:41orientation or gender identity is. Um,
25:43we believe in a woman's right to choose.
25:45Like, we shouldn't we shouldn't say that
25:47we don't believe in those things just to
25:49win votes. That'll actually cost us. Um,
25:51what we should do is be less judgmental
25:53about people who don't believe those
25:55things and ask them to be part of our
25:57party. Nominate them for office. Um, so
26:00long as they agree that concentrated
26:02power is the biggest problem, and there
26:04are lots of people on the right who
26:06believe that. And so long as they
26:07believe our democracy needs to be
26:08unrigged, and there are lots of people
26:10on the right who believe that. So, my
26:12argument is that we shouldn't moderate
26:15our views because that would be
26:16inauthentic. We should just, um, choose
26:19to believe that, um,
26:21everybody who is not yet where we are on
26:24trans gender rights is a racist or is a
26:27bigot.
26:29The the second thing to say is that the
26:31the broader critique when you sort of
26:33do, uh,
26:35qualitative analysis of what people
26:37think about Democrats is that they just
26:39think we're weak.
26:40And part of what they like about Trump
26:41is that he's strong. They perceive him
26:43to be strong. M- My 17-year-old, who's
26:45pretty plugged into politics and is, you
26:47know, not a
26:48fan of Donald Trump, that's like the
26:49only thing he knows about Trump. He He's
26:51like, "Well, Trump does stuff, right? He
26:52does stuff."
26:54And I think that that maybe more than
26:57the the the nuances of how we approach
27:00the social and cultural issues is really
27:03important. We've got to show that we're
27:05willing to act, that we're willing to
27:06act in big ways, that we won't let the
27:08bureaucracy stand in our way. If it gets
27:10in our way,
27:11um that was a lot of Trump's attraction.
27:13And again, this is back to this question
27:15of people feeling powerless,
27:17people feeling like they have no agency,
27:19people feeling like their government is
27:21powerless to help them. And so, you're
27:23going to only win if you are speaking a
27:26language of power,
27:27at least
27:28that if you get power, you will use it
27:30in government. That speaks to the way
27:32that people are feeling like nobody is
27:35able to move the levers that impact the
27:38quality of their life.
27:39>> But even that perception speaks to like
27:41the the disconnect between perception
27:43and reality. So, Trump is strong.
27:44Everybody says that. He he certainly
27:46performs strongness,
27:48right?
27:49>> Right.
27:49>> Uh the way a a a you know, a a a WWE
27:52wrestler does, but he's not a actually
27:55strong. I mean, he's actually
27:56spectacularly weak in many ways. Um he's
27:59actually embarrassed himself on the
28:01public stage in lots of ways. And there
28:02are lots of things about him that are
28:04not strong. Um
28:06but that's not the story.
28:08That's not the perception. Um and there
28:10are plenty of Democrats who have been
28:11actually strong in a way that he isn't,
28:14but they're not perceived the same way.
28:16I don't know what that is.
28:17>> Well, but I mean, that's like humanity,
28:20right? Like, I mean, from the beginning
28:22of time, impressions matter.
28:24Um you know, that first impression you
28:26have of a person, um even if it is not
28:30matched by reality over the course of
28:32the first year of your life, is
28:33powerful. Like, that's how our brain
28:34works is through impression and
28:37performance. And you know, we could sit
28:39around and like
28:41you know, worry
28:44that
28:44>> [laughter]
28:44>> that that's a um imperfection of the
28:47human species, or we could do a better
28:49job of performance as Democrats. Again,
28:53not in service of false narratives,
28:57in service of true narratives, and not
29:00be shameful that part of politics and
29:03part of life is appearance and
29:05performance.
29:06>> Do you think you can really
29:08expand the tent without moderating? I
29:10mean, I feel like the implication is
29:11always that those two things have to go
29:13hand in hand.
29:14>> Yeah, I I I don't know. I mean, we were
29:17once a big tent party with the majority
29:19of our members feeling passionately
29:21about protecting the environment or or
29:25stricter gun laws,
29:26but people who were pro-oil and gas and
29:29people who didn't believe in
29:32universal background checks felt
29:34comfortable inside the party, right?
29:35Like John Dingell was a long-time
29:38Democratic member from Michigan who was
29:41an A-rated NRA member. He never
29:43questioned whether or not he was a
29:45Democrat. And ultimately, he wasn't able
29:47to stop
29:49the
29:50the improvement of gun laws in 1993 and
29:521994.
29:54So, yeah, I I I think history tells us
29:57that you can actually be a party that
29:59holds strong views on social issues, but
30:01create a home for people who disagree
30:03with you. And then what do what do you
30:04work together on? You work together on
30:06that agenda of improving the democracy
30:08and improving the economy. There was no
30:10separation between Representative John
30:12Dingell and the rest of the Democratic
30:14Party on a higher minimum wage or on
30:16campaign finance reform.
30:18They just agreed to be okay with
30:19disagreements on other issues.
30:21>> Well, there's another problem here, and
30:23you're pretty honest about it in the
30:24book. And it is that the the the
30:26Democratic coalition
30:28includes a lot of the winners in the
30:30society we're criticizing. You know, you
30:32know, Wall Street, professional class,
30:34cultural institutions, big donors. You
30:35know this, it's in the book. Um the Dems
30:38are not have not been fully committed to
30:41breaking corporate power. Means that
30:44have to change.
30:46>> Yeah, I I certainly think that if you
30:48adopt my recommendations, which is to
30:52you know, have a narrative that talks
30:54about power.
30:56Um
30:57and you're much more forthright that
30:59you're going to take it from people who
31:01have lots of it and give it to people
31:03who have very little of it. Yeah, you
31:04might lose some votes amongst the
31:06wealthy and powerful, but you will more
31:07than make up for it by picking up, you
31:09know, members of Trump's coalition,
31:11probably those who are, you know, lower
31:14income voters.
31:15Um So, I I think that that's a trade we
31:17should be willing to make. I
31:19think it's a little hard to like get up
31:21every day as a party and say to your
31:24your your friends, "Hey, we're the party
31:25of poor people."
31:27And then poor people keep on voting
31:29against you over and over again. Like,
31:31you maybe you're not the party of poor
31:32people. Maybe you should, you know,
31:34change the way that you talk. Um
31:36the the the things that you accentuate
31:38if you're
31:39um if you're actually not getting the
31:40votes of poor people. I I think the
31:41second thing we have to do, and maybe it
31:43will chase off from some higher income
31:45voters, is really prioritize fixing the
31:48democracy. Like, people know that the
31:51rigging of the economy is downstream of
31:54the rigging of our democracy. And our
31:56party just kind of stops talking about
31:59fixing our democracy, which makes it a
32:01lot easier for the right to just
32:04make the claim that democracy can't fix
32:05any problem. So, you know, for me, like
32:08getting big money and corporate money
32:10out of politics has to become a priority
32:13issue again. And yes, that might scare
32:15off some of the folks who make the big
32:17donations, but I do think it would pick
32:19up a sizable group of people in Trump's
32:22camp who thought that in electing him,
32:24he was going to fix the democracy. He
32:26was going to drain the swamp. And they
32:28now have at least some evidence that he
32:30did not that.
32:31>> I feel like the Dems talked a whole lot
32:33about fixing democracy in the last
32:35presidential election. And maybe it was
32:36more talking about Trump as a threat to
32:39democracy, which perhaps is not exactly
32:40the same thing as talking about fixing
32:42democracy. But whatever it was, it did
32:43not seem to cut through. People did not
32:45seem to be overly interested or buying
32:47it.
32:48>> Yeah, no, but I think you you hit it on
32:49the head. We we did not talk about
32:50fixing democracy. I I don't actually
32:52think we ever talked about fixing the
32:54democracy. We just talked about
32:55protecting the democracy, protecting it
32:57from Trump. And people were like, why?
33:00Why should I want to protect this
33:02version of democracy? I have no role in
33:05this democracy.
33:06Um you know, in my neighborhood in the
33:09South End of Hartford, I live in one of
33:10the poor neighborhoods, I think one of
33:11the poorest neighborhoods in the in the
33:14state. Um people are I mean people are
33:16like,
33:17voting? Why would I vote?
33:20What What difference would that make? Um
33:23and I like I you know, I make the
33:25argument, but I hear where they're
33:27coming from. So, yeah, when Democrats
33:30went out in 2024 and said, vote to
33:32protect this democracy,
33:34people were like, no thanks. No thanks.
33:36This democracy is not serving me. Maybe
33:38I'm willing to take a chance on putting
33:40one person in charge. So,
33:43yeah, I just don't think we've ever made
33:44the argument of fix it.
33:46>> Well, I get that a lot down here, too.
33:47They all Yeah, what it's Coke or Pepsi,
33:49what difference does it make, right? And
33:51so the Republican party, they just seem
33:52culturally more
33:54uh friendly
33:55to me, so I'll vote for them. But
33:57ultimately, it doesn't really matter,
33:58which is not actually true in any way,
34:01really.
34:02But that is the perception, and I don't
34:04know what to do about that. Um
34:07>> Yeah, but I don't think I don't think
34:08people believe that it can be fixed.
34:11>> Well, that's part of it, yeah.
34:12>> Yeah, but you won't
34:13you won't know that until you actually
34:15put some
34:16some oomph behind an argument to fix it,
34:19and we haven't done that.
34:21>> Well, what's what's preventing the party
34:22from having done this already?
34:24>> Well, I think we have our own
34:25billionaires. Um and so we have become
34:30not as
34:32addicted to the big money as
34:33Republicans, but we are partially
34:36addicted to that money.
34:38I think some of it is because, and again
34:41this is again in the political weeds,
34:42our democracy reform message over the
34:45last 10 years migrated from get big
34:47money out of politics to voting rights.
34:49So, we sort of checked the box on
34:51improving democracy by making the the
34:55our primary uh projects in the democracy
34:58reform bucket uh
35:00protecting people's right to vote, which
35:01is a super important project, especially
35:04when we're Republicans are trying to
35:05tear down the Voting Rights Act, but
35:06that's not really a broadcast message.
35:08Not everybody cares about the right to
35:10vote because most people don't feel like
35:12their right is being infringed upon.
35:14That doesn't mean you don't still work
35:15on that because we need to protect,
35:17you know, the the right for black
35:19people, poor people to vote, but
35:21it the broadcast message is get big
35:24money out of politics, and I think
35:26for whatever reason we we we only
35:28thought we could do one of the thing in
35:30the democracy bi- bucket, and it came
35:31voting rights.
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37:55>> You mentioned Bernie Sanders.
37:57What happened to him and the party or
37:59between him and the party in 2016?
38:02How big a mistake
38:04was that? Because a lot of what you're
38:05saying, I mean, he Bernie was
38:08making this kind of argument and making
38:10it well, and I actually think it was
38:11cutting through. For whatever reason, um
38:14and then he just kind of got pushed
38:16aside and and, you know, back to the
38:18status quo ante, and here we are.
38:21>> Yeah. I think it was a mistake.
38:24Um
38:25Now, I didn't endorse Bernie in, you
38:27know, either of his campaigns. I'm
38:29closer to him now than ever before
38:31because I think, you know, the last
38:33three or four years, I've come to
38:34believe that it was a bigger mistake to
38:35set him aside. But, you know, he is a
38:38Democratic Socialist, and there is a
38:41question as to whether this country um
38:44thinks the solution to what ails
38:48our economy right now in the way that it
38:50has made them feel lonely and powerless
38:52is socialism. Here Here's my
38:56My worry is that the impression is
38:58there's only two choices. Um a
39:00profit-obsessed market fundamentalism on
39:03one side and socialism on the other
39:04side. Just like people think when it
39:06comes to our democracy, there's only two
39:08choices, a super broken
39:10corporate-captured democracy or Yeah.
39:13Donald Trump in charge, totalitarianism.
39:15Th- Those are not the two options. And
39:17so, you know, I certainly get eyebrows
39:20raised by my Democratic Socialist
39:22friends um or allies when I use the term
39:25common good capitalism. But, I do
39:28believe that there is a way for
39:30capitalism to work um if you create a
39:33higher floor, a higher minimum wage, if
39:35you aggressively break up concentrated
39:37power so that, you know, your local
39:39downtowns are healthy places that you
39:41can feel like you have a sense of
39:42identity and belonging in, that you
39:44don't let technologies isolate us into
39:47um lives in which we don't communicate
39:50with others. There's a version of common
39:52good capitalism that we could run on. Um
39:54and I think that that's, you know, the
39:56same thing for democracy. It's like if
39:58we we can run on vast improvements to
40:00our democracy, vast improvements to our
40:04k- form of of capitalism so that people
40:06don't give up on either.
40:08>> I do I do, before we leave, want to ask
40:10you what you think is the most um
40:13important political fight
40:15Democrats need to pick up moving forward
40:18and just own it. Is tax is it AI? Is it
40:20campaign finance? Is it corruption? Wall
40:22Street? Fixing democracy, all the above.
40:25What How would you rank order those
40:27fights?
40:28>> Well, I I think the the most important
40:31political fight is the fight to un-rig
40:34our democracy. I think it's there for
40:36the taking.
40:37I think if we made getting billionaire
40:40and corporate money out of politics and
40:41we're sincere about it and lead every
40:43conversation with it, we would broaden
40:44our coalition pretty quickly.
40:46I think the most important policy fight
40:48is over the future of AI.
40:51As I argue in this book, I really am
40:53somebody who believes that
40:55unregulated AI will be a civilization
40:57destroyer.
40:59And I primarily think that because once
41:01it robs us of our basic human
41:03functionality, friendship, and
41:05creativity, composition,
41:06problem-solving, I just don't know
41:08what's left for us, you know,
41:10to to be. Not not to do, but to be. And
41:14that will lead to cultural
41:16and societal disintegration.
41:18Now, I also think there's a real
41:19political opportunity there because as
41:21you can see by people's reactions to
41:23data centers and how young people think
41:25about AI today, like everybody's ready
41:27for a party to be the party that is
41:29going to take on AI and they don't see
41:31either party as willing to do that right
41:32now. So, I would say And of course the
41:34two are connected because, you know,
41:36you've seen how much money the AI
41:38companies are spending on in these
41:40they're planning to spend in these next
41:41races. They now realize that they might
41:45be able to spend enough money in the
41:47next few campaigns to elect enough
41:48Republicans to be able to never ever be
41:50regulated.
41:52And so, I think if you're running on a
41:54platform of controlling AI, making sure
41:57that you don't we don't lose humanity,
41:59we don't lose too many jobs too quickly
42:01from AI, and controlling the power of
42:03the AI industry by limiting the impact
42:05of money and politics, that's a I think
42:07that's a broadly winning message. So,
42:09they're they're somewhat separate, but
42:10definitely connected.
42:12>> Well, this does not read like
42:15a campaign book, and I mean that as a
42:16high compliment.
42:18But, is it a campaign book? Are you
42:19running in 2020?
42:20>> another interviewer said
42:21>> I'm sorry, I had to do it, Senator.
42:22>> No, no, no, but another interviewer said
42:23to me, uh, "You know, I know you're not
42:25running for president because you wrote
42:27this book."
42:27>> [laughter]
42:28>> Because it This book does not I mean,
42:29I'm in it a couple times, but, uh, you
42:31know, this book is not about me. Now,
42:33this this book is a note to,
42:35you know, to my party and to the
42:36country, and, you know, I don't know if
42:38I'm going to run. I I genuinely don't.
42:39But, I I have gotten, you know, multiple
42:42texts from friends of mine who I know
42:43are running for president, um, who say,
42:46"Oh, boy, I think you've sort of
42:47captured a language, a way of thinking."
42:49Because I think everybody in this
42:51country knows that we are just less
42:53healthy spiritually, and they know that
42:54that's the main problem, and that
42:56they're frustrated that the way our
42:58political conversation works
43:00is such that 95% of the conversation is
43:02about this one guy, Donald Trump, and
43:04the and the campaign that will be run
43:07against him. So, in writing this book,
43:09I'm trying to get a language for people
43:10out there to understand the deeper
43:12problem, and if it ends up and if I
43:15don't run for president, and it ends up
43:17influencing the language that some of my
43:19friends use in their campaigns, that
43:21would be
43:22I'd be all right with me.
43:23>> Well, I I I don't know what to do about
43:25it, but I I I do agree with you 100%
43:27that the problem is that deep. And, you
43:30know, I
43:31Senator, I I I appreciate you doing
43:32this. I I I appreciate that you were
43:34trying to think about the big picture in
43:36a serious way. Most politicians are not
43:38doing that.
43:40That alone makes you a friend of the
43:41show. So, thank you, and thanks for your
43:43time.
43:43>> Appreciate it.
43:45>> Thanks for watching. Each week we'll be
43:47in your audio and video feeds with great
43:50interviews and a philosophy-minded look
43:52at tech, culture, politics, and much
43:55more. Episodes of The Gray Area drop on
43:58Mondays and Fridays on YouTube, Apple
44:00Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get
44:03your podcasts.
44:05As always, we want to know what you
44:06thought of the episode. So, drop us a
44:09line at the [email protected].
44:12And if you enjoy our reporting and want
44:15to hear more from Vox journalist, then
44:17consider becoming a member of the Vox
44:20community on Patreon at patreon.com/vox.

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