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Deep Energy Retrofits: Two Case Studies — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:08all right good evening and welcome to
0:10the bsn beer show
0:12of course bs stands for building science
0:14tonight's topic is a case study twofer
0:17we have a deep energy retrofit
0:19to a house and a brewery which is pretty
0:21on brand uh as i said i'm travis travis
0:25brungar i'm in kansas city i'm drinking
0:27a
0:28giant bottle of jubru funky farm smile
0:31of fortune it's a belgian golden strong
0:33ale
0:34those who know about the jubru know
0:36about the jew brew
0:38bs beer is an independent grassroots
0:40movement to share building science
0:41knowledge through local meetup groups
0:44and this our zoom show
0:45the brew crew and our guests volunteer
0:47our time each week to bring you what we
0:49hope is fun and informative in terms of
0:51this discussion we would like to thank
0:53green building advisor and fine home
0:54building magazine our media partners for
0:56helping us promote and share the show
0:57each week
0:58we would also like to thank our
1:00dedicated audience members who help us
1:01keep the conversation rolling with
1:03comments in the chat box
1:04tonight we'll start with the guest
1:06introductions and presentation do a
1:08panel discussion
1:09there'll be audience questions and a
1:11panel discussion and we'll wrap up at 7
1:1230 eastern time
1:14with that i'll turn it over to my
1:15colleague mike
1:17thank you travis
1:19i am mike mayne's in maine tonight i am
1:21drinking a bato brewing from here in
1:24gardner maine it's a red ale from my
1:26friend sarah
1:28very tasty
1:31just a few uh technical notes um i don't
1:33think we have any non-video participants
1:35this week but if we do you can you can
1:37hide them if you play around with zoom
1:39enough
1:41i think everybody's familiar with zoom
1:42hopefully by now but if you if you don't
1:44know the chat box we do have an active
1:46side discussion going on in the chat box
1:48so find the button at the bottom of the
1:49screen
1:50and that's where we
1:52uh collect questions and comments to
1:54keep the conversation going
1:56um so feel free to post what you're
1:58drinking where you're from and as
2:00as the presentation goes uh post any
2:03questions there and we'll we'll grab
2:05some to talk about after the
2:06presentation
2:08um
2:09a zoom quirk uh please be sure to click
2:12all panelists and attendees when you're
2:15posting in the chat box otherwise only
2:17us panelists can see your comments
2:20uh mailing list fine home building sends
2:22out zoom reminders each week um but it
2:25just says it's just just a zoom reminder
2:28if you want to know more about what
2:30we're talking about each week join our
2:31mailing list at the bsnbearshow.com
2:35or check out kylie's weekly post at
2:37green building advisor
2:39the video recording of tonight's show
2:40will be available at green building
2:42advisor and we encourage you to continue
2:44the conversation over there
2:46all past shows can be found on youtube
2:49and also through a link at the bs and
2:51bear show.com
2:53an audio only version of the bs and beer
2:55show will be
2:56is available wherever podcasts are found
2:59and i will turn it over to kylie
3:03okay thanks mike i'm kylie jacques i'm a
3:05senior editor at green building advisor
3:08i'm drinking
3:09a big canteen of iced well water for
3:12which i am eternally grateful
3:15um not everybody has that um so for all
3:18of these announcements i'm about to make
3:20uh these are events and podcast kind of
3:23recommendations uh i'm i'll just put a
3:26link to each in the chat box so you can
3:29just follow up there um skillsusa is an
3:32organization dedicated to closing this
3:35trade skills gap and they're looking for
3:38industry professionals willing to help
3:40in june with judging projects so if
3:43you're interested in that
3:44um email bill robinson and i'll give you
3:47his email address
3:49mark willie and dave cooper host a willy
3:52uh excuse me a weekly show called bs
3:54fridays um we meaning the brew crew were
3:58recently guests on the show and if i
4:00think if you like this show you'll like
4:02that one
4:03[Music]
4:05another thing that you might be
4:06interested in checking out is the
4:07passive house accelerator
4:10they're doing a
4:12construction tech tuesdays and global
4:14happy hour wednesdays shows uh i think
4:18you might enjoy that and emily also has
4:20a podcast that you
4:22would likely enjoy uh it's called energy
4:25and efficiency with emily um and then
4:29jake brewton steve basic and peter yost
4:33are doing something called unbuilt
4:35unbuild it
4:37uh and that's i don't know if it's
4:38podcast but i think it's a podcast uh so
4:41check that out again link to come and
4:44for the book club episode which is on
4:46april 1st
4:47we are all reading
4:49um
4:50the essential building science
4:52let's see
4:53oh shoot i forgot the title of it
4:55essential building science i think and
4:57then there's uh
5:00yeah i can't get it to show up so i
5:01didn't even bother there it is
5:04once i give a link whatever you'll find
5:06it um but what's neat is that um they
5:09the publishing company is offering a 25
5:12discount on the book if you'd like to
5:13purchase it and we hope you will because
5:15we'd like to invite some audience
5:16members to join us on that show um
5:19and i will give you the um
5:22code name or whatever it is you need to
5:24enter uh the beer the code essential 25
5:28but i'll send that to you um i think
5:31that's it
5:32for me
5:34who's introducing travis are you
5:35introducing guests emily
5:44that's okay works for me um emily matrum
5:47architect here in maine tonight i am
5:49drinking a uh
5:50spanish shira
5:52still no beer in this house because i
5:54still haven't gone out but hey whatever
5:57i know it's sad bs and beer every week
5:59you think i get beer
6:02tonight we have two excellent guests uh
6:04we have yes jesper cruz who is the owner
6:06of main passive house and the founding
6:08member of passivhaus maine
6:10he is a certified passive house
6:11consultant and builds and designs
6:13passive houses and other high
6:15performance buildings in the mountains
6:16of western maine so yes but tell us what
6:19you're drinking a little bit more about
6:20yourself
6:22um
6:23well um thank you i am building um the
6:26surf breeze from oxbow brewing company
6:30it's a farmhouse ale with cranberry sea
6:33salt and citrus apparently and it's
6:35delicious it sounds weird but it's
6:37really tasty
6:39and
6:42i really got into the building science
6:43to be able to drink beer so this is a
6:46perfect
6:48fit
6:50i i think it's really funny that you're
6:52you're drinking that particular beer one
6:55because you're gonna talk about oxbow
6:57but that started a little thing with
6:59travis and i about sour beers because i
7:02got that one and i didn't realize it was
7:04kind of like a sour i'm not a sour beer
7:06fan
7:07and um that started a thing for like
7:10several weeks in a row of household beer
7:14travis you would love that someday we're
7:16going to send you some i was going to
7:17say i begged emily to send it to me when
7:19she said oh i can't stand this i was
7:20like no it's for me just said yeah it is
7:22for you so i applaud your beer choice
7:24yes i'll send another one through the
7:26portal to you
7:28only that worked
7:30um and we also have anna heath she is a
7:33lead carpenter and project manager of
7:34maine passivhaus she's been working with
7:37the company for three years and recently
7:39piloted a workshop series to teach
7:41carpentry to the community at maine
7:42passive
7:43newly renovated shop space in bryant
7:46pond so welcome anna what are you
7:48drinking and what else would you like to
7:49tell us about yourself oh hello there um
7:52i'm drinking paloma daydream which is
7:55also from oxbow we're shamelessly
7:57plugging them right now
8:00this one emily you would not like it all
8:02it's grapefruit sea salt lime and agave
8:05um it's still my heart
8:08it's delicious
8:10and i i think this presentation will
8:12speak for itself you'll learn everything
8:14about me
8:16all right well that's awesome i'm gonna
8:18let you guys go ahead and kick it off
8:20with your presentation so whoever wants
8:23to share their screen
8:25okay so we are going to talk about deep
8:27energy retrofits um and we are going to
8:29think about them in terms of
8:31building in versus building out
8:34um and that means where do we put our
8:37insulation is it smack on the outside of
8:39the building or are we interrupting our
8:41living space and putting it inside
8:44um and because we are main passive house
8:47we are building by the passivhaus
8:48principles they're listed here uh the
8:51ones we're focusing on are super
8:53insulation
8:54kind of thermal bridging a little bit
8:56we'll talk talk about it a bit uh
8:58definitely air tightness always air
9:00tightness
9:01and i think a little bit of mechanical
9:04ventilation
9:06our two projects uh the one i'm going to
9:09talk about is oxbow the the brewery that
9:11we helped renovate a new beer garden for
9:14in oxford um that's a 200 year old barn
9:17that we
9:18we fixed up and then we're also going to
9:20talk about yes but's personal
9:23residence
9:24that's his house right there on the
9:26right
9:27and to start off
9:30this beautiful barn has so much history
9:34in the community it used to be a
9:36cross-country skiing
9:38course and people could do ski rentals
9:41out of the barn
9:43i know close personal friends that lived
9:46there in the barn there were numbers up
9:49on the beams for back when the barn used
9:51to be
9:52a bed and breakfast
9:54so it's got a deep deep history in the
9:56community
9:58um and i think naturally we'll start at
10:00the bottom and work our way up when we
10:02talk about the renovations um
10:05first thing we did was we picked the
10:07whole thing up and we rolled it out of
10:09the way because all it was sitting on
10:11was some rocks and cow poop um and
10:14there's this really awesome video on the
10:17main passive house website you should
10:18check it out it's all drone footage and
10:20you just watch this massive structure
10:22just like rolling along it's so cool
10:25so
10:26the first thing we're going to talk
10:27about is building in on a frost wall
10:31and this is the inside of the barn after
10:33we poured the slab and rolled it back
10:35into place you can see that we actually
10:38lifted the whole structure up a little
10:40bit higher in order to account for head
10:42room
10:43and so you we've got lap joints on posts
10:46and we've got
10:48that
10:49foam detail on the back wall you can see
10:51where it's it's white on that back wall
10:53and there's about four inches of space
10:57um unaccounted for between the sheathing
10:59and the frost wall
11:01and it was a really really cool
11:03project trying to blend that in and make
11:05that look like it belonged
11:09so this is the slab detail
11:11and the thing that we really want to
11:13talk about
11:14is breaking the thermal bridge between
11:16the slab and the frost wall and that's
11:17what that foam was about on the back
11:19wall of the
11:21barn and you can see that the
11:24the
11:25foam actually lines up in the plane of
11:28the double stud walls that will end up
11:30building
11:31on some of the interior walls
11:34i'd also like to point out there is a
11:36little bit of thermal bridging here
11:39this project was run on a very tight
11:42budget
11:44we were pushing the energy efficiency as
11:46much as we could and so we figured let's
11:48insulate under the slab
11:50while we have the chance
11:52couldn't convince them to wrap the posts
11:54couldn't convince him to do the exterior
11:56of the frost while which we normally do
11:58but we figured the frost wall we can get
12:01to later
12:02so
12:03we didn't push him on it too hard
12:06another alternative for the foundation
12:09is the concept of building in on the
12:12foundation for a full basement
12:15and
12:15this
12:17kind of design is meant to use cellulose
12:20instead of like a more traditional rigid
12:22foam board
12:23and the reason behind that is the
12:25embodied carbon of the materials
12:27so we actually that yellow membrane is
12:30is a heavy-duty like 10 mil or 15 mil
12:34plastic called stego that we just wrap
12:36up and cover every single concrete
12:38surface tape it super well we make sure
12:41we've got
12:42caulking underneath the
12:45walls that we drop in so that there's no
12:47way that moisture can get into that
12:49cavity and then we drop a
12:52stud wall and then we put two by two
12:55battens horizontally to add a little bit
12:57more
12:58insulation space but less thermal
13:01bridging through those studs
13:03and that allows us to
13:05fill that cavity with cellulose and
13:07reduce our embodied carbon
13:10a little bit of a digression we're back
13:11to oxbow now
13:13this is the idea of building in on the
13:15walls
13:18it's interesting because this project
13:20wasn't a clear-cut let's build
13:22everything in let's build everything out
13:24because they wanted to expose the the
13:26beautiful old barn wood
13:29we were kind of stuck with this
13:30combination of both which makes the air
13:34barrier really challenging
13:36in this
13:37particular
13:39image here you can see a double stud
13:41wall which is an example of building in
13:43it's a trickier construction
13:46it just means a lot of repetition you're
13:48building the same wall twice basically
13:50and you've got to make sure everything's
13:52framed up square and nice
13:54um there are other ways to do this a
13:56little bit faster with different
13:57materials that yes but we'll actually
13:59talk about in the building out segment
14:02but we built in on one wall normally we
14:05want to put the air barrier on the
14:07interior third of the insulation layer
14:11for our climate zone anyways
14:13and
14:14unfortunately because we were building
14:16in on the wall on the left and building
14:18out on the back wall
14:20the only way to possibly do that would
14:22be like if we cut a channel
14:24right along the double stud wall on that
14:26back wall and kind of like wrapped the
14:28air barrier behind the beautiful barn
14:31wood and then built behind it so we
14:33ended up actually pushing our air
14:35barrier to the exterior
14:37and you can see that in red on this
14:39slide
14:40we did end up
14:42taping it to the foundation as well and
14:45that's how we sealed off the entire
14:47thing we don't typically do this we
14:49usually will try to keep the air barrier
14:51to the interior third
14:53but this situation was a little bit
14:55different you can see here the outside
14:58of the building and this is the air
14:59barrier that we it's a really really
15:01wonderful
15:02um
15:03air barrier weather resistant barrier
15:06and also is a oh gosh i watched a bs and
15:10beer episode on this and i'm not going
15:11to use the right term
15:13it's a smart vapor retarder i think
15:16not a barrier
15:18that's right
15:19okay awesome
15:22and you can see all of the taping detail
15:24that goes into this it's a lot of hard
15:26work
15:27and a lot of just like attention to
15:29detail you can also see down at the
15:31bottom where we've taped it to the
15:33concrete we use a primer
15:35just prime the concrete first it helps
15:37the tape adhere better
15:39and it works in
15:4114 degrees to 113 degrees fahrenheit so
15:45it can withstand most of our main
15:47temperatures which is awesome
15:50and this is the finished product and of
15:53course we would build in and build out
15:55to get a result like that you can also
15:57see the benches
16:00along the back wall that's how we hid
16:02the four inch gap with the sheathing in
16:05the frost wall
16:06and tried to blend it all together
16:10and now let's move to the roof
16:12this is an example of building out and
16:14this is my personal favorite
16:17retrofit detail i think it's
16:20just really efficient um
16:22in this case we use tjis which are
16:24engineered floor joists um and we
16:28stripped the whole roof uh
16:30cleared it back you can see how wide
16:33those boards are like they really wanted
16:35to show all that off and it was
16:36definitely
16:38a little bit wavy sagging in places
16:41so the tjis actually provide a really
16:44nice structural support for that it just
16:46rigidifies everything
16:49and you can see we laid down our air
16:51barrier screwed in our tjis to the
16:53purlins in the original framing
16:56and then wrapped over the top of them
16:58the mento again and that got connected
17:00to the mental on the wall so we have a
17:02continuous air barrier all the way
17:04around
17:06and you can see here our strapping we
17:09have a double layer of strapping the
17:11first is to provide a rain screen or
17:13venting on the roof and then the second
17:15is so that we can attach our roofing but
17:17we actually used the strapping the
17:20vertical strapping as an opportunity to
17:22fur the roof out to even it out so it
17:24didn't
17:25match the wave of the original roof and
17:27you can see we go from like
17:29nothing to
17:315 8 advantage to
17:34three-quarter strapping so it was a bit
17:36of a mess up there but i think we
17:38figured it out by the end it was it was
17:40decently straight um
17:42and i wanted to show you this detail
17:44here where we've got a double
17:47layer of strapping and the mento and
17:49then we're filling the mento with
17:51cellulose we end up with some ballooning
17:53in the middle so we put these battens
17:57through the middle of that that grid
17:59pattern to hold it down and that way
18:02all the penetrations that are along the
18:05um
18:06strapping
18:07are protected all the water drains to
18:09the center and it has a way to get
18:11through the roof assembly
18:13which
18:15works pretty slick for us another thing
18:17to note is that this project we wrapped
18:21up the roof probably
18:23september
18:24and
18:25all through october it was super rainy
18:27and we were worried that the
18:29the cellulose that was packed in there
18:31would get wet and yes but cut it open
18:33after a month or so and it was bone dry
18:36so this this membrane works
18:38phenomenally it was really really cool
18:40to see
18:41and this is
18:42the reason why we built out on this
18:44assembly
18:46and now i'll turn it over to yester
18:49all right
18:50thank you anna um
18:52so
18:54this is my own house my wife and i built
18:56it in 2000
18:59and talk about a shoes shoestring budget
19:02we spent 85 thousand dollars originally
19:04building that
19:06um
19:08no frills
19:09and
19:11after 15 years the brosco wooden windows
19:13we that we had put in were
19:16toast
19:17and at this point i had started
19:19importing windows from denmark
19:22triple pane windows to use in some of
19:24these passive house projects we were
19:26were building and i thought ah i'll
19:29throw some windows in for the south side
19:30of my own house
19:32and you know on the next window order
19:34and we'll put those in and then i was
19:36like well we can't really put triple
19:38pane windows in
19:40um
19:41in a two by six wall you know it doesn't
19:43really make sense so
19:44i was like oh we should probably um
19:48walk the talk and kind of retrofit our
19:50house so in order to make it um
19:54possible for us with the money that we
19:56had we decided to do one wall at a time
19:58so one wall a year
20:01and
20:03that's how we kind of got started to it
20:05it's um
20:06it you know it's nice that it kind of
20:08like spreads out the cost but it's also
20:10[Music]
20:12dangerous for
20:13um relationships should we say
20:16to live in a construction zone for uh
20:19for four years it was like total
20:21construction zone but it definitely got
20:22old at the end
20:24i will say i am super happy that we did
20:26it now my house is extremely comfortable
20:29it's very resilient
20:32my energy bills are
20:34very low i probably pay like less than
20:36100 a month on average um to run the
20:40entire house
20:41so what you're seeing here is um
20:44[Music]
20:45the house is two by six construction
20:47this is actually afterwards we've been
20:48doing the this is the tail end of the
20:50renovation but it's two by six walls
20:53sitting on frost walls with a concrete
20:55slab below
20:56and anna is gonna
20:58skip the slide so i'm gonna do the
21:00secret
21:01shake here whenever i need the slide so
21:04um
21:06so the first thing we did is we
21:09took the siding and we stripped the
21:11siding off the bottom of the wall
21:14and then we dug down to the footers of
21:16the frost walls
21:18and then we cleared um the top of the
21:21frost walls and then we adhered this d a
21:24membrane which is the green membrane you
21:26can see in the photo
21:27we adhered that to the
21:29to the
21:30concrete foundation just like anna did
21:32at the oxbow project
21:34primed it um taped it we probably put in
21:37some high
21:39quality caulking as well so
21:42we did that and then we put 10 inches of
21:45eps foam on the outside of that and 10
21:48inches is probably a little overkill but
21:50i had these
21:51five inch
21:52thick sheets left over from another
21:54project so two layers of those
21:57and that kind of gets my foundation wall
21:59out in the same plane as the
22:02larson trusses that we're putting on
22:03later
22:04we put a little bit of
22:07top paper over the eps phone to try and
22:09keep the
22:11the ants and critters out of it although
22:13the eps film that we're using is treated
22:15with borax so in theory it should keep
22:17those um
22:19tests out of it
22:21so
22:22that's what it looked like at first and
22:25this is what it looks like later i like
22:26this secret
22:28oh no no
22:32yeah left right
22:34um okay so that's just what it looks
22:36like
22:37at the end so now you can go
22:40so here's the
22:42detail like i said two by six wall
22:44foam on the outside um
22:47so that the da membrane the green
22:49membrane ends up on the outside of the
22:52old two by six which is kind of right
22:54where you want to have that air bay area
22:55that that wasn't a shake that was just a
22:57little
22:58thing there anna um so
23:01um
23:02and then you can see we had originally
23:05when martha and i built the house we put
23:07two inches of xps foam under the slab
23:10and obviously we weren't going to
23:11jackhammer the floor up to put more
23:13underneath there
23:15so i was a little concerned about the
23:18the concrete the frost wall coming up
23:20thinking that that was going to be a
23:21thermal bridge anna did the therm
23:23modeling
23:24and it's actually not a thermal bridge
23:26but obviously it is a break in the
23:28installation but it's not enough to
23:30qualify as a
23:31thermal bridge so
23:34now we can move on
23:37thank you anna
23:39um
23:40all right so
23:44past the foundation after we do the
23:45foundation then
23:47we strip all the siding off the entire
23:50side of the house
23:51we take the windows out we run the da
23:53membrane right over the windows we go
23:56all the way up to the
23:58to the roof and then for night there
24:00we'll have just the da membrane covering
24:03our windows tape it so it's kind of
24:05weather tight
24:07then the next day we go in we cut out
24:10the da membrane in the old window
24:11openings so
24:14we planned it so that
24:16the new windows that we're going to put
24:17in are the same size as the old windows
24:20minus the window box that we're putting
24:22in so
24:24after we cut out this membrane in the
24:25window openings we built the window box
24:28so that's what the the sheathing that
24:30you can see in the window openings
24:32we built that box so it comes out to the
24:34plane of the tjis
24:37we tape the
24:39corners of the window back and we tape
24:42the connection between the window buck
24:44and the da membrane right so when we put
24:46the window in now
24:48window connects to the
24:50to the window box the window block
24:51connects to the da membrane and that's
24:53how it
24:54it stays tight
24:56and then before we put on the
24:59tjis or the larsen trusses we take a
25:01little strip of
25:03mento which is our
25:05weather resistant barrier we tape it to
25:07the da membrane and we drape it out over
25:09the
25:10over the foam and then we put our
25:13trusses on that so that way we can have
25:17um
25:18our whole wall system ends up being like
25:20wrapped on itself right so we have the
25:22da membrane on the back side the mento
25:24that goes underneath mento all the way
25:26up the face and then we wrap it up over
25:28the top as well
25:30so
25:31um i think you can skip to the next
25:33slide anna
25:35so after all the tjis
25:37are on we block around the windows we
25:39put a little row of blocking along the
25:42bottom of the wall
25:44and
25:46that is
25:47ready for mento now so i think you can
25:49skip there we go we put the mento on
25:51that
25:53all the seams will get taped in this of
25:55course you know wire penetrations that
25:57are coming out are getting sealed up
25:59and
26:00go ahead and skip to the next
26:04same detail that you saw before
26:07nothing's changed there you
26:12was there did you skip was there one
26:14more slide in there anna or no oh yeah
26:17that was okay
26:18so
26:19i just want to show so over the mento
26:22after the mentor goes on we will do a
26:24rain screen so we have strapping one by
26:26three strapping going over
26:28the tjis
26:30and then horizontal strapping that we
26:31can nail our siding to
26:33and then notice in between the
26:37the um
26:38i should say by the way too that the tj
26:40has the last and trust is bolted into
26:42the original
26:43framing of the house
26:45and then the little skinny battens that
26:47you can see in the slide are
26:50just to keep the
26:52mento
26:54from bulging out and actually end up
26:57coming up pressing against the siding
27:00just to keep that nice airflow and
27:02um to the attentive
27:05participant you can notice one
27:09mistake we did here if you're looking up
27:12right to the right of the window to the
27:14far left
27:16you can see a little round
27:18circle which is the um
27:20the lunas ventilation system coming out
27:23right up under the eaves and that turned
27:25out that's not a good place for it
27:26because
27:27there is some extra heat in it when it
27:29exhausts in the winter and that will
27:31condense right up under your eaves so
27:33i had to put in like a little metal cap
27:36up there so i didn't have icicles
27:37hanging off my
27:38my overhangs
27:40all right
27:41now we can take it to the alternative
27:42wall
27:43which is you could build your own larsen
27:45trusses which a client of ours did i
27:47probably i'm guessing he probably
27:50made somewhere between 50 cents and 75
27:53cents an hour building those
27:55um
27:56they were super cool beautiful but it's
27:59not a cost effective way i think to do
28:01it but if you're retired and you have
28:03time
28:05go for it he also decided to insulate
28:07with roxul which
28:11probably i think we figured out it cost
28:13him as much
28:14in
28:15to insulate that as it would have caused
28:18him to have it insulated with cellulose
28:19by someone else so
28:21um all right we can skip to the next one
28:24which is just another way of adding
28:26insulation to the outside could be
28:28just adding eps foam which is what we
28:30did in this this is new construction but
28:32um
28:33it's eps foam which isn't like a great
28:35material but
28:37a better option would have been like a
28:38wood fiber insulation maybe
28:41but
28:42just cost prohibitive on this project
28:44here so
28:45also just jump in really quick this is
28:47what we did on the building out section
28:50of that back wall in oxbows it was all
28:53eps foam on that wall
28:57all right the roof this is like where um
28:59this project got interesting so
29:02um you can see here the gray membrane
29:05right under the
29:06old rafter tails so that's the da
29:08membrane that comes up and then that got
29:10taped to the mantle right so you can see
29:12how we're having like
29:13each wall is actually sealed unto itself
29:16so if we have a leak one place it's not
29:19like
29:20leaking in
29:21to the other
29:22assemblies
29:24and the reason we wanted to cut the
29:26overhangs off is going to be apparent in
29:28this next photo
29:30um
29:31i'm really impressed with your uh
29:33reading my mind here anna that's uh
29:34that's awesome so the reason we want to
29:37cut the overhangs off is that we can
29:38then drape our mento right up over our
29:41roof
29:42um
29:43and it just makes it way easier to air
29:45seal it
29:47somebody once told me it's kind of the
29:48the comparison is to like it's a gift
29:51wrap a pitchfork that's in a box
29:53compared to gift wrapping a pitchfork
29:55that's not in a box so
29:57it's uh just so much easier when you can
29:59wrap it up like a nice little
30:01present
30:03and then
30:06up at the peak of the roof because we
30:07used to have a vented attic right with
30:09like vets in each gable
30:12but now that we're wrapping everything
30:13it's a non-vented uh
30:15attic which is kind of like a no-no
30:18so we cut a bunch of the plywood out
30:21up near the peak
30:22and the reason the thought behind that
30:25is that if there is moisture in the
30:27attic
30:28then at least now the moisture only has
30:30to make its way through the
30:32mento plus membrane rather than making
30:34it through the cdx plywood and then the
30:37mento
30:38and um
30:39mento has a really high perm rating
30:41right so if there's moisture in there
30:42it's easy for it to get out whereas the
30:44da membrane that we have on the walls
30:46has like a really low
30:49perm rating so it's hard for moisture to
30:51get from the inside of the house into
30:52the wall assembly to start with
30:55so
30:56now we strap the roof and
30:59um you know so it's venting behind the
31:01siding it's coming up venting all the
31:03way underneath the roofing and then out
31:04in peaks and you can see we
31:07uh
31:09made this special uh
31:11drip edge out of a 24 inch
31:14wide
31:16flat stock metal so that we could um use
31:20the old roofing panels
31:22um because obviously now that we're
31:24making the wall thicker the overhangs
31:26get longer the roofing is not long
31:27enough but this is a way to
31:29to use the old roofing because it still
31:31had some life in it
31:33and
31:36originally i was like great you know we
31:38got the plywood caught up i'm all set
31:39but then i did a couple of uh what some
31:42presentation presentations at nessie's
31:44conference in boston and
31:48kind of thinking maybe it's not such a
31:50good idea to have this
31:52leaky ceiling into my attic and
31:54potentially having all this hot moist
31:56air ending up in my attic with
31:59with uh no ventilation so
32:02um
32:04i had 16 inches of
32:06loose fill cellulose up there already
32:09so
32:10we ended up shoveling that kind of from
32:13one end to the other
32:14from one side to the other
32:17and then we put out
32:19smart vapor retarder in cello
32:23out over the entire attic trying to air
32:25seal
32:26the space so trying to a seal the attic
32:29from um
32:32from the living space and
32:34one thing we did that made it a little
32:36bit easier is we caught like i think 12
32:39foot strips of um intello and we had a
32:43little pattern so we caught these little
32:45notches so
32:46when we brought the roll up we could
32:47roll it out and it would kind of fit
32:49around all the cross braces
32:52and then if you skip to the next slide
32:54you can see how we then taped that
32:57intello around painstakingly taped that
33:00around each cross brace
33:04and here like anna
33:06and matt myself you know we're all
33:08gung-ho to go up in the attic like yeah
33:10we're gonna totally kill it today this
33:12was like probably in may and
33:14it was probably like 120 degrees up
33:17there it was absolutely horrible but um
33:20i'm really psyched we did it i sleep
33:22better at night knowing that we
33:24we went through all of that
33:26um
33:28all right
33:30so um this is a detail
33:33jasper was concerned about
33:35where the trusses meet the wall
33:38how there's a
33:40cold corner there
33:41because we weren't able to expand the
33:43insulation there so we were talking
33:44about doing a crown molding with foam
33:48and i did some energy modeling and tried
33:51to try to keep in consideration moisture
33:54and all that and we found that a two
33:57inch by two inch
33:58triangle of eps would provide like
34:02enough insulation to reduce the thermal
34:04bridge
34:06but not too much to cause moisture in
34:09that corner
34:11and you can see a thermal imaging
34:15photo from
34:16i think if that's in november
34:20and and the temperature difference isn't
34:21too far off along the edges of that from
34:24the interior so we're we're okay with it
34:28we are going to try to run
34:30some moisture analysis in that corner
34:33we've been prodded after giving this
34:34presentation to to look into it so
34:37we're going to look into it and try to
34:39measure it through either this winter or
34:41next
34:43and the only other alternative roof
34:46building in strategy really that we use
34:49fairly regularly is is a drop ceiling
34:51and of course this isn't
34:53super convenient if you're living in the
34:54space or if you have interior finishes
34:57already done
34:58although it is really convenient as far
35:01as if you need to run new electrical if
35:03you need to add new ventilation
35:07and if you want your air barrier within
35:09the interior third of the assembly this
35:12is a really easy way to do that
35:15so now i'm just going to touch on
35:16mechanical ventilation very briefly
35:19because we're making these homes
35:21so airtight uh
35:23we need to add some mechanical
35:25ventilation
35:26um
35:27yes but do you want to say your favorite
35:28phrase
35:31uh i have no idea what my favorite
35:33phrases
35:36houses don't need to breathe people do
35:42so
35:43we add mechanical ventilation to all of
35:45our our houses um
35:47more traditionally is the ducted erv
35:50energy recovery ventilator this
35:53will allow for some humidity control
35:56whereas the traditional hrv the heat
35:58recovery ventilator doesn't
36:00maintain humidity as well uh
36:03we we like these units they run very
36:05efficiently very quietly
36:08although they're really really hard to
36:10put into a retrofit this is actually
36:13an erv installed in a retrofit it was
36:16amazing i don't know how he managed to
36:17handle like all the duct work that he
36:19had to run through his house afterwards
36:21but it's very uncommon that we'll add a
36:23ducted system to a retrofit
36:26more commonly we'll use these units
36:30so this is
36:31the one we we use more typically it's
36:33lunos i actually did just hear the other
36:35day that zender is coming out with a
36:37self-contained unit as well so that's
36:39kind of exciting
36:40the nice thing about these is
36:43they're completely self-contained
36:45there are two types one that
36:48is in a partnership and all you really
36:50need to do that's kind of invasive to
36:52install these is a calm wire that that
36:55allows the two to talk to each other and
36:57basically
36:58in order to do the heat exchange one
37:00will turn on um in taking air for 70
37:04seconds while the other one is
37:06um letting the air out exhausting thank
37:09you um and then after 70 seconds they'll
37:12switch directions so this one's been
37:14pre-heated as it exhausts so when the
37:17cold air comes in for supply from the
37:20outside it gets warmed as it comes into
37:22the house and vice versa
37:24and then there's another unit that we
37:26put in kitchens and bathrooms that does
37:28all of it through its own
37:31self without talking to another person
37:33another unit
37:35they're less expensive they're not as
37:37invasive to install you just drill a
37:39hole in in your
37:41wall
37:42and you put them right into place but
37:43they can be
37:45quite noisy yes has some experience with
37:48that
37:49i would say you know the
37:52as having installed more and more of
37:54these units and having them in my own
37:56house now
37:57i think as it gets really cold what they
37:59say is to either you know shut them down
38:01to like a really low speed or just there
38:04are multiple settings that you can set
38:06them on
38:07and you can also set it so you can
38:08actually just shut it off because
38:10sometimes you would get a little frost
38:12in it and you'd hear this fan just go
38:13like they did like
38:15super noisy once you found out that
38:16there's a way to shut it off that kind
38:18of
38:19alleviates that so
38:23um
38:24all right so
38:25[Music]
38:27just talking about
38:28insulation
38:31so cellulose is really our go-to
38:34uh
38:35insulation material
38:37for a number of reasons right it's it's
38:39it's
38:40just good like when you're looking at
38:41the building science part of it you know
38:43it
38:44holds moisture well it's inexpensive
38:47you're actually storing
38:49carbon in the wood fiber that you have
38:51in there it doesn't off gas
38:56it's cheap
38:57so
38:58and we have a good install i think you
39:00know the the key to using cellulose
39:02insulation
39:03is that if you're dense packing it in
39:05walls and rafters or something like that
39:07you just need to make sure that
39:08whoever's doing it know what they're
39:10doing and that it gets
39:12dense packs of the four pounds per
39:14square inch or whatever it is
39:17um
39:18eps foam we use that below grade um
39:22primarily i think that one project where
39:24you saw eps on the outside of the wall
39:26we've done that once but
39:27we decided to try to stay away from it
39:29so
39:30you know it's it's um
39:32it's under the slab on pretty much every
39:34project we do it's on the outside of the
39:36foundation walls a lot but that's about
39:38it
39:39um
39:40it's not as bad as xps film some other
39:42stuff but there is a good alternative
39:44now um
39:47glavel or
39:50foam glass
39:51i know that rob convoy in
39:55vermont i think is kind of working on
39:57getting a factory up and running so
39:59once that's being produced here in the
40:01u.s that'll just be so much nicer right
40:03so it's basically like back filling
40:06your excavation projects with the
40:08material that has insulation in it
40:10rather than using dirt so you're getting
40:11like you know you're back filling it and
40:13insulating it at once with a product
40:15that's um
40:17much better for the environment and
40:19spray foam we just stay clear of that
40:21like
40:23uh if you're trying to air seal your
40:25houses with spray foam
40:27um spray foams
40:29just you know it's like off gases and
40:31you're relying on
40:34you know if if
40:36if any kind of wood is twisting or
40:38shrinking or moving which it does all
40:40the time it can easily create like
40:43cracks in your otherwise continuous air
40:45barrier and then
40:47the kind of screw so then on top of it
40:49it's pretty expensive and it's not a
40:53very healthy product and it's not good
40:55for the environment so we even stopped
40:58using spray foam around the windows now
40:59we just
41:00use fraxel to fill the gaps between the
41:02windows and the window box and then we
41:04use
41:05window tape to to air seal it
41:08and
41:10if you are
41:12doing this kind of
41:15you know energy efficient construction
41:17or whatever you want to call it
41:19because you
41:21think that
41:22it's good for the environment
41:24then you definitely need to pay
41:26attention to what kind of materials
41:27you're using
41:30this slide you might have seen it many
41:32times before it's it's a popular slide
41:35these days but
41:36um
41:38you know you can see the carbon impact
41:39of like extruded polystyrene the blue
41:42styrofoam that you get from the lumber
41:43yard
41:44is horrible um you know eps foam that we
41:48use is definitely not as bad but like
41:51max let's see like dense pack cellulose
41:53you're actually storing carbon
41:55um or like a straw bale house is
41:57probably like the most environmentally
41:59uh beneficial product you could use so
42:02um what i've been told is
42:06and i think that's from like chris
42:08mackwood i think who did this slide here
42:09is that you could actually build
42:11a brand spank a new passive house
42:14and use like some of these materials
42:16that are not very good for the
42:17environment and over the lifetime of the
42:20house
42:21it would actually be worse than a code
42:23built house built with
42:25less carbon intensive materials so you
42:30know yeah saving energy is awesome but
42:32using the right materials is awesomer
42:39the money part
42:41so
42:42on my project that ended up costing us
42:45160 000
42:47and
42:48um
42:49i didn't pay 160 000 because i didn't
42:51pay myself and etc but that's kind of
42:54like assuming um you know that
42:57the crew that was working on it
42:59it's like kind of i've taken that into
43:01consideration so
43:02you know i needed to get new windows
43:04anyway and the siding kind of needed to
43:07be changed as well so you could say like
43:09you know maybe
43:10half of the cost of it um
43:14needed to be done otherwise otherwise
43:16but
43:17you know it's hard to justify
43:19i mean
43:20my return on investment i'll never see
43:22it i think you know maybe my kids will
43:24but
43:25i think
43:26the really big things that i got out of
43:28this besides having very low energy
43:29bills now are definitely the comfort
43:32like the comfort of my home i just like
43:35i can't even compare it to previously
43:36you know i can sit in my windowsills in
43:39like a t-shirt
43:41when it's 20 below outside and be just
43:43as comfortable as i would be if i'm
43:45sitting in the middle of the house
43:47the air quality in the house is
43:50amazing compared to like what it used to
43:52be you know i used to have like water
43:54all over my windows and
43:56got none of that now um
43:58the resiliency
44:00um if i lose power my house won't freeze
44:04uh
44:06it's uh that so that to me is definitely
44:09worth it you know
44:10so but you know it might not be the case
44:12for everybody you know maybe there's
44:14some kind of i think sometimes you know
44:15you
44:16you gotta kind of like figure out um
44:20from case occasion of what the best
44:21solution is and what's the best solution
44:23with your money i mean obviously if you
44:24have brand new windows in your house and
44:26new siding
44:27tearing all that stuff off to like add
44:30insulation to the outside might not be
44:31the best solution
44:33all right um and the oxbow beer garden
44:38um
44:39so that was 400 yeah 172 bucks a square
44:42foot
44:43um for the total cost of the project
44:46and then we've kind of like broken it
44:47out with like taking different things
44:49out of it i will say the one thing that
44:51was not included in this is
44:55all the
44:56appliances for the commercial kitchen
44:58and the wood fired
45:01pizza oven
45:03but um you know for 172 bucks a square
45:06foot for a total god rehab i think was
45:09i think we did pretty pretty well
45:12and
45:13i think that might be it
45:16all right
45:19those are beautiful projects both
45:22yeah i wanted to have a drink at the
45:23brewery immediately i know right
45:27and then they
45:28i will say they have actually done an
45:30unbelievable job if you drive by there
45:33on a saturday
45:34there will be like probably a hundred to
45:36150 cars there they have like fireplaces
45:39outside and
45:41i mean the restaurant itself is close
45:43but they have a sega window and people
45:45are drinking beer outside and
45:47unbelievable even now even even now yeah
45:50oh yeah yeah yeah
45:53yeah no very nice
45:55i
45:56do have to mention that
45:58or i i i've known jesper for
46:0210 years maybe and actually met him
46:04uh through passive house maine not to be
46:06confused with maine passive house which
46:08is his company pacifist maine is our
46:10state passive house group and we
46:12basically started as as a very bs and
46:15beer-like group so i've had a lot of
46:18building science discussions sitting on
46:19a table with yes but so
46:21that that was a big inspiration for this
46:24so it's really cool to have you here yes
46:26but and it's great to have you here as
46:27well anna
46:29um
46:31and i and i've uh
46:32i've driven by the beer garden probably
46:35at least a hundred times in my
46:37oh or my life but but but i haven't
46:40since you've converted it it looks it
46:42looks really cool
46:43um i really like the the the the
46:45that battens you have like i mean i've
46:48done
46:49the infill battens but i've never
46:51overdone them to provide drainage that's
46:53that's really smart
46:56um
46:57i was curious about why
46:59why da on the interior of your house
47:02instead of intello were there reasons
47:04for choosing the da or things you prefer
47:06about d.a versus intel these are both
47:09both proclaimer brands
47:12um
47:14i don't have a good answer that chris no
47:16okay i wonder if maybe when we started
47:19out if the intello might not have been
47:22available at that point okay
47:25um is it
47:26dea or db plus one one of them is is
47:28wood is is is is a wood fiber
47:32base instead of a petroleum base i've
47:33been interested in trying it just for
47:35that reason the performance numbers are
47:38reasonably comparable to intello or
47:40other yeah i see sam newman says the db
47:44plus is paper-based
47:47but the da is i guess it's i don't know
47:49if it's petroleum-based but um it's def
47:51yeah
47:52okay it's like a you know perm rating of
47:54like zero or one or something probably
47:57one
48:00um we have a
48:02a bunch of audience questions and
48:04comments but any any uh any any anybody
48:08on the panel wanna
48:10have any questions for these guys well
48:12it just so happens it's just
48:13serendipitous that i'm featuring this uh
48:17yes house in the fine home building the
48:20next edition of fine home building
48:21magazine is kind of a hybrid between
48:24green building advisor content in the
48:26print edition of fine home building and
48:29i so i had to find really you know
48:32stellar projects
48:33that made sense to feature in this
48:34particular building science heavy issue
48:37so um this house came to my attention
48:40independent of this show and i got on
48:42the phone with yesva and discussed it
48:44for that reason and
48:47one of the things that i kind of
48:49kind of came away with the idea of it
48:51being
48:53a very methodical approach to how to
48:56beef up a wallace
48:58an entire envelope um one wall at a time
49:02and i don't know if that's something
49:03that you would
49:05recommend to people who are interested
49:08in energy efficient um
49:11measures but don't have a ton to lay out
49:14right at the start you said that you did
49:16one wall per year i think that's kind of
49:19interesting i don't know if if it made
49:21you crazy enough that you would never
49:22recommend it to anybody or if it's
49:24something that you would recommend
49:27um
49:28no i mean i i
49:30i think it just kind of depends what
49:32your tolerance is for
49:34um you know having ongoing construction
49:37going on but
49:39really the one thing that
49:42made it um
49:44kind of a real pain
49:46was that we have drywall returns
49:48so you know the drywall goes from the
49:50walls and then it returns into the
49:51window so when you do one
49:54wall where you might have like you know
49:55you could have like two or three rooms
49:57in your house that is that are facing
49:59this wall
50:00you're doing the drywall returns that
50:02means you're gonna have to obviously
50:03hang the drywall mod and save it but
50:06most importantly you have to sand it
50:08and when you sand it that just you know
50:10it gets everywhere so it's like
50:13it's so disruptive it basically means
50:15you have to like you know empty whatever
50:16rooms you have there
50:18and then
50:19you know you do the next wall
50:22on the other side and you might have in
50:24the same room another window on another
50:26wall so that means you're going to have
50:28to clean that room out again another
50:29time and that's
50:30so we did you know we did the south wall
50:33and
50:34then when we moved around to the other
50:36side we just decided not to finish the
50:38drywall returns so for like a year and a
50:40half we just lived with like
50:42these plywood box you know what i mean
50:44and it was just kind of like i mean
50:47you know we kind of like to have our
50:49house like put together and look nice
50:50you know when people come over and it's
50:52just kind of like ah it looks a little
50:54you know a little ghetto but
50:56i mean the nice thing is that you do one
50:58wall so you can start with like a small
51:00wall
51:01and just do that wall and it might just
51:03take like you know a week or two weeks
51:05and then you learn something from that
51:07and then you move around to the other
51:08wall
51:10at some point you're gonna have to deal
51:11with the roof
51:12so
51:13you know but i mean the nice thing is
51:15you can kind of like ease into it
51:17um so
51:19yeah i would i wouldn't say like i'd
51:21never do it again but i'm really happy
51:23that i'm done
51:25you would say that we we've presented
51:27together about deep energy retrofits in
51:29the past and it's always expensive and
51:31everything but someone posted in the
51:33chat were you still married uh after you
51:35were done with this project so you would
51:37do it again but would your wife
51:40get your family do it again
51:43uh
51:44yeah
51:44luckily she's not here to answer that
51:46question
51:48but i will say we are still married so
51:51we're still sleeping in the same bed so
51:54there you go
51:56[Music]
51:58your windows yes but i i know we've
52:00discussed this before i've actually been
52:03to your house i think you were just i
52:04think you'd finished your first wall so
52:06it was like maybe five years ago and i
52:08know you had wood framed
52:10uh
52:11tilt turn style
52:13windows you were importing from denmark
52:15but they were actually out swing which i
52:17find really interesting because i find
52:18it's
52:19uh
52:20it's it's hard to convince clients who
52:22have never seen an in-swing tilt turn
52:24that that's what they want to have
52:26um and so i think
52:28and with small houses in swings can be
52:31an issue also
52:32so uh um i know you're not importing
52:35those windows anymore but can you talk a
52:37little bit about
52:39uh windows like what why did you choose
52:41the outswings or what
52:42did you or just yeah what's what are
52:46your thoughts on on on passive house
52:48windows
52:49um
52:52i mean they're really sleek windows i
52:53love those windows um and they're awning
52:56windows so
52:58you know they just tilt out which is
52:59great you can have them open in the rain
53:01and it doesn't matter
53:03um
53:04the trickiest part was to come up with a
53:06way to have a screen because where we
53:08live we just have so many mosquitoes and
53:10stuff so we need to have some kind of
53:12screens um
53:14and uh
53:16finally what i came out with that
53:18actually worked really well is kind of
53:19like we made like a double hung
53:21screen that we put into the inside
53:23and you just lift that one part up stick
53:25your hand out to grab the handle to open
53:27it and then you just let it come down
53:29again um
53:30but in general what we're using is a
53:32bunch of tilts and windows you know from
53:35uh use a bunch of logic windows which is
53:38you know we buy right through a company
53:39here in maine
53:42you know uh
53:43i think it's you know
53:45so many you know back when when i
53:47started my project there were not that
53:48many options for for triple pin windows
53:50now there's like
53:52i wouldn't be surprised ourselves like
53:53100 different windows that you could get
53:55now
54:02a bunch of audience
54:04questions
54:07let's see
54:08dan culver wants to know if you're doing
54:09any monitoring on either project any any
54:12modern monitoring uh in
54:15in the walls you know hydrothermal
54:16monitoring
54:20no i'm i'm not
54:23a related question somebody uh was
54:25farther down the list but somebody was
54:27asking uh todd todd spraguens was asking
54:30what modeling tool are you using that
54:33takes into account vapor moisture in
54:34addition to
54:36thermal so um
54:39wolfie is actually does does a good job
54:41with that um i don't use that software i
54:44actually was using therm
54:48which is not my favorite uh i wouldn't
54:51really recommend it but
54:53therm and then they have
54:55some resources on the um
54:59what would the website be yes for the
55:01german one
55:04for the
55:10yeah so they had some resources there
55:12that that explained how to use therm
55:15with moisture um really it's just a
55:18little
55:19uh kind of like a little indicator on
55:21the thing that says
55:22your dew point temperature is this and
55:24then you have to plug it into an xl and
55:26hope for the best so i i wouldn't
55:29recommend that method i think there's
55:30better
55:32software out there i think
55:35wolfy right wolfy passes
55:37a good job yep kind of sounds like
55:40that's what most people are using now
55:42yeah
55:44i have to uh
55:46go out of order here and say yes steve
55:48basic uh
55:49says triple glaze windows are a dumb
55:51idea but it's to armando and they have a
55:53little thing so i'm not sure what the
55:55rest of the story he's just picking a
55:56fight he's just picking okay okay okay
55:58he's just picking fights in
56:01i have the chat
56:01modeling question though do you guys do
56:03most of your own modeling or do you have
56:05um
56:06or do several of your projects come to
56:09you with the the passive house model
56:10already done
56:14um
56:15a lot
56:16both um when we work
56:19with certain architects we get our
56:21passive house model done for us which is
56:23lovely um and when we design our own
56:26obviously we're doing our own um and
56:28other architects just don't give us that
56:30and we have to do it ourselves
56:33and sometimes you get a project you know
56:35that's so far along that it's pointless
56:37to energy model it because
56:39whatever we're gonna tell them it's it's
56:41too late at that point so
56:44i think we probably rely more on
56:48on details that we know that we've
56:51either been modeled by somebody else or
56:53[Music]
56:55that we have like a track record if we
56:56know they're going to work that's
57:00i think
57:05i might have missed it in the
57:07presentation but did you work with an
57:09architect on oxbow or
57:11or or did you guys design it yourself
57:14you worked with an architect
57:15uh leslie benson and portland maine all
57:18right
57:20nice
57:20um
57:23she's asked a few times so i feel like i
57:25should bring it i should ask you guys
57:27can you tell us a little bit about foam
57:28glass what is is there a brand you used
57:32for that
57:33i know there's a owens corning or
57:36cornell or one of those have
57:38corningware um we actually haven't used
57:41it yet but i'd love to use it um
57:45the product that
57:47we're probably gonna use um is gravel
57:53it's out of vermont so i know you can
57:56buy it now but i think if you buy it now
57:59i think you're actually buying like
58:00stuff that's being imported from germany
58:02so
58:04i think i just talked to rob at glabel
58:06on wednesday about a project i'm working
58:08on and he was shipping it from houston
58:10and i thought it was recycled glass
58:12product
58:13so
58:14that may already be changing
58:16so give them a reach out to global if
58:18you're interested in that because i
58:19think that's already on the improved
58:21side
58:23he was quoting really
58:25what i consider to be very favorable
58:28pricing so i would encourage anyone
58:30who's interested in that it's a
58:32fantastic product i'm really excited
58:34about it and
58:35you know there's a limited labor
58:38with that product obviously the plate
58:40compactor is something that you wouldn't
58:42uh
58:43you wouldn't be doing with a comfort
58:45board or a
58:46gps
58:48under slab insulation but
58:49you
58:50still have to plate compact the
58:53crushed stone if you're doing a
58:54traditional under slab preparation so
58:57uh yeah anyway that's a huge digression
59:00sorry i got excited
59:07lily and mar asked if uh
59:10if you can talk about venting your walls
59:12up and out through the roof did you need
59:15to calculate the net free area or any
59:17concerns about
59:19connecting your wall venting with your
59:21roof venting
59:25um
59:27no no calculations so we just have you
59:30know
59:31there's this rain screen which is you
59:33know just two layers of strapping
59:36behind the between the the weather
59:38resistant area which was the mento plus
59:40on my house
59:41and then the siding so it's just
59:43creating this air space down on the
59:45bottom you have like insect screen or
59:48core event or something that keeps the
59:51bugs and then the mice from getting in
59:52there
59:54and it's just air like being able to
59:56move behind your siding so that if you
59:59have a crack in
1:00:00a board
1:00:03you know you have driving rain that's
1:00:05coming in behind your siding it's not
1:00:06being trapped in this sandwich between
1:00:09the siding and your
1:00:11weather resistant barrier
1:00:13and so we're just having this airspace
1:00:14and it just connects up to the roof
1:00:16where we have that strapping under the
1:00:18metal roofing so it's just
1:00:20air seeps in at the bottom of the wall
1:00:22and just rises as
1:00:25hot air does
1:00:26and it just rises all the way up goes up
1:00:28over the roof and then it there's a
1:00:30ridge vent on the roof so the air can
1:00:33get out there so
1:00:34it's just a way of kind of like
1:00:37you know it's like going running you
1:00:39know with your jacket all zipped up and
1:00:42being all tight and then like you know
1:00:43opening the vent strips under the arms
1:00:46it's just
1:00:47kind of getting rid of the moisture
1:00:50that's good
1:00:52uh
1:00:53doug horgan had a good idea um
1:00:56uh
1:00:58your eps uh
1:01:01crown molding uh was a clever idea doug
1:01:03suggests uh
1:01:05thermal bucks should make uh
1:01:07make those and yeah
1:01:09as like or as a product you know
1:01:11insulating crown moldings
1:01:14um
1:01:15like a little pattern on it
1:01:17yeah exactly
1:01:18um hansbrough asks uh if you can with
1:01:21the lunos ventilation system can you
1:01:23smell outdoor odors do you get any
1:01:26transfer of that or is it any different
1:01:28from centralized
1:01:30ventilation systems have you noticed
1:01:35i haven't noticed it no i mean it has a
1:01:37the filtration is not as good i think
1:01:39it's in a centralized ventilation system
1:01:42but
1:01:43um you know and where i live i mean i'm
1:01:45out in the middle of the woods there's
1:01:46not
1:01:47you know
1:01:49smell the rain fresh wood smell coming
1:01:51in on you come on yeah oh no christ no
1:01:53no we have scents and candles everywhere
1:01:55don't worry
1:01:56guess what
1:01:59terrible air quality come on
1:02:01can you can you talk a little bit about
1:02:03why you
1:02:05why you chose the lunos
1:02:07system
1:02:08i'm always curious about that just
1:02:10because if we wanted to have a
1:02:11centralized ventilation system i would
1:02:13have had to run this ductwork through my
1:02:15house which
1:02:16that the inside of the house is a very
1:02:18open layout so it would have been
1:02:20impossible to
1:02:21kind of hide that plus i didn't have you
1:02:24know i don't have a basement at my house
1:02:25i have nowhere to really put that system
1:02:27and
1:02:28and fit it in
1:02:29so it's just how many do you have
1:02:32so we have two lunas ego system so
1:02:36that's like the two units that anna
1:02:38talked about that are connected so i
1:02:39have that's e2
1:02:42e2 oh sorry yeah yeah thank you um
1:02:46so we have there's four bedrooms in the
1:02:50house so we have them in like three of
1:02:51the bedrooms and one living room so
1:02:55and then we have so we have like two of
1:02:57those two pairs
1:02:58and then we have um
1:03:01three ego units one in each bathroom and
1:03:03one in the kitchen
1:03:06and that's like more than enough that's
1:03:08like really
1:03:10you know so we can run a couple of those
1:03:11on low and then
1:03:13what we normally do is we kind of turn
1:03:15them down to low when we leave for the
1:03:16day and then at night when you go to bed
1:03:18we definitely
1:03:20pop them up to full speed just so you're
1:03:22getting
1:03:23plenty of fresh air while you're
1:03:24sleeping and you know
1:03:26to be honest the other
1:03:30i mean
1:03:31just
1:03:32in and out in the bedroom or you have an
1:03:35inn in the bedroom and then out sort of
1:03:37some so
1:03:38i just cut the door so the units so
1:03:41[Music]
1:03:43let's say you have one in my bedroom and
1:03:45that's connected to a unit that's down
1:03:47in the living room
1:03:48right so the one in the bed in the
1:03:50living room will be sucking air in while
1:03:52the one in the bedroom is exhausting air
1:03:5570 seconds later right they switch over
1:03:58and then yeah there's like a half inch
1:04:00gap under the door so that the air can
1:04:02move in and out of the room
1:04:03and
1:04:04there's this honeycomb right there's
1:04:06this really heavy duty ceramic cone in
1:04:09the unit so that when the air is being
1:04:11blown out it warms up that honeycomb and
1:04:14then when you're sucking the air in
1:04:15that's cold it's taking the latent heat
1:04:17out of the honeycomb and warming it up
1:04:19that way
1:04:23one other random question about lunos
1:04:25then uh how are the ones doing in the
1:04:27house you did that has the pool
1:04:30are they holding up
1:04:32i haven't heard from them so
1:04:35the house that you asked about with a
1:04:37pool that actually has a centralized
1:04:38ventilation system right and we just put
1:04:40the
1:04:41one
1:04:43e2 unit in the pool room so that
1:04:47the moisture from the pool room wouldn't
1:04:49get sucked through the entire house
1:04:51right so that's kind of separate and
1:04:53i mean as far as i know i haven't heard
1:04:56anything differently i don't know maybe
1:04:57anna have you heard anything from peter
1:04:59and cindy here
1:05:01no no no news is good news let's hope so
1:05:04call back means it's working
1:05:08is it a huge cost savings to go with
1:05:11lunos uh
1:05:13approach versus you know an erv or hrv i
1:05:17mean because you're not you know you're
1:05:19if you don't have the ductwork then it
1:05:21eliminates all of that so are we talking
1:05:23like
1:05:24can you talk a little bit about the cost
1:05:26difference between those two approaches
1:05:30so
1:05:31the units that we have in my house are
1:05:33[Music]
1:05:35probably
1:05:36let's see
1:05:3722
1:05:3921
1:05:40um so like 4 500 bucks
1:05:43for the lunas units and
1:05:47you know whatever time it takes to
1:05:48install them and wire them up which is i
1:05:50don't know maybe a thousand maybe a
1:05:52couple of thousand bucks at the most so
1:05:54for like a full-blown if we bought like
1:05:56a cinder unit
1:05:58for a uh new house it's probably like
1:06:01closer to like eight or nine thousand
1:06:03dollars for older you know by the time
1:06:05you get the unit the ductwork the
1:06:07manifolds
1:06:09i mean
1:06:10you know like once a volkswagen the
1:06:12other one's a bmw so
1:06:15it's
1:06:16you know but it's a it's a much simpler
1:06:20um
1:06:21it's a much simpler installation and i
1:06:23mean there's one in the office where i
1:06:24am right now and i mean
1:06:26you know i'm sitting with headphones on
1:06:27but i can hear the unit running so
1:06:30it's you kind of get used to it you know
1:06:32it's kind of like a refrigerator humming
1:06:33in the background but
1:06:35you know if you have a centralized
1:06:36ventilation system you don't hear it
1:06:38it's just there you know
1:06:43you know
1:06:44um
1:06:45a couple of building envelope
1:06:47questions or comments one drew uh noted
1:06:50that you don't have overhangs on on
1:06:54either building and that frank lloyd
1:06:55wright would roll over in his grave
1:06:57uh
1:06:58any uh
1:07:00i know or i know no overhangs is often a
1:07:03hot issue but um have you have you
1:07:05experienced any problems with with you
1:07:07with your
1:07:08with your mental wrapping the wall to
1:07:11the roof intersection um uh and
1:07:14ventilated cladding ventilated roofing
1:07:16have you had any problems with with the
1:07:17lack of overhangs
1:07:22um there are overhangs in my house oh
1:07:25they're all right so yeah that's and
1:07:26that's if you wanted to go you can go to
1:07:28like a um
1:07:29that's an instagram post uh on main
1:07:32passive uh a couple of weeks ago that
1:07:34kind of like shows exactly how we attach
1:07:36the overhangs
1:07:39anna at
1:07:40oxbow no overhang says that correct or
1:07:44yep
1:07:45very very limited overhangs yep
1:07:48um
1:07:51i mean personally i love overhangs i
1:07:53can't get enough i think it's like you
1:07:55know well it just makes sense right i
1:07:57mean it's like
1:07:58kind of like
1:08:00keep the water away from the building to
1:08:02start with it's always a good idea i
1:08:03think but
1:08:05um
1:08:07you know
1:08:08there were there were reasons that you
1:08:10know oxbow was just on a very tight
1:08:12budget but it didn't have overhangs to
1:08:14start with either you know and i gotta
1:08:16say that building had been there for 200
1:08:17years so
1:08:19i mean
1:08:21without overhangs
1:08:26drew's
1:08:27comment i missed was specific to the
1:08:30gable ends and just i think i think
1:08:31people in other parts of the country
1:08:33don't realize that in rural new england
1:08:34we often
1:08:35will do overhangs on the e's but not on
1:08:37the rakes because
1:08:39money usually i think i think it's
1:08:40mostly a money decision
1:08:42oh that was a style thing we see that
1:08:44here as well that you know on the the
1:08:47gable ends we almost never see overhangs
1:08:49on
1:08:50like fifties cup capes over here and i
1:08:53always think uh i really wish that had
1:08:55some protection on that side of the
1:08:56house but it
1:08:58i mean overhangs don't cost that much
1:09:00right
1:09:01right well sk
1:09:03scott scott in the the comments uh i
1:09:06think nails it that no overhangs are are
1:09:09are at two ends of the economic spectrum
1:09:11maybe you can't afford them or you can
1:09:12afford it or or or or you can afford to
1:09:15do it right you have an architect who
1:09:17doesn't like overhangs i like
1:09:27a somewhat related comment i wanted to
1:09:28follow it up with russ chapman in
1:09:30vermont says uh
1:09:32jesper's
1:09:33uh door rooflet is is it holding up
1:09:37with the snow coming off the main roof
1:09:39would you do anything differently he's
1:09:41got the same situation coming up at his
1:09:44house and actually i have the same
1:09:45situation as well so the the mono pitch
1:09:48shed roof on brackets is that working
1:09:50out okay for you over the door yes
1:09:52yeah i mean i was out uh shoveling my
1:09:55deck yesterday and uh
1:09:58we got some heavy wet snow that came off
1:10:00i mean like yeah i mean it's amazing how
1:10:04much snow comes off that roof man and
1:10:07dropping down um yeah it's it's hangs
1:10:10just i'm just fine i'm really happy that
1:10:12i do have that overhang over that door
1:10:15and then the other thing i put in i
1:10:17would put on the deck you know i put
1:10:18like little crates
1:10:20in the decking where the drip line comes
1:10:22down so the water just goes right
1:10:23through the grates rather than
1:10:24splattering off on the on the decking
1:10:27that's a good idea
1:10:30steve basic wants to get a fight going
1:10:32about foam if we run out of things to
1:10:34talk about we can kind of come back to
1:10:36that
1:10:38i love steve it's always good for a
1:10:40tussle
1:10:41yeah does he like foam or he doesn't
1:10:43like
1:10:45oh now i'm getting into it never mind
1:10:51we all know foam is useful some of us
1:10:53prefer to use it some of us prefer not
1:10:55to use it when possible
1:10:59carol said i took the bait
1:11:01i only have to debate carol it's not
1:11:04um so
1:11:05a few
1:11:06people have asked more about cost and
1:11:09comfort so just if you guys would be
1:11:10interested in getting away from the
1:11:12building science more how do you sell
1:11:14build how do you sell building science i
1:11:15know we cover talked about it a little
1:11:17bit
1:11:18um
1:11:19uh
1:11:21aaron but uh says how do you convince a
1:11:24client of the value when the budget is
1:11:26forefronted the idea of return on
1:11:28investment comes up and it's like a
1:11:2950-year return
1:11:31so
1:11:32how do you
1:11:34yeah how do you how do you convince
1:11:35people to go to to these lengths or do
1:11:38you convince people to go to these likes
1:11:43um
1:11:45i just think i guess
1:11:49i just don't really make a big deal out
1:11:51of it i was like oh yeah cool yeah we'll
1:11:52build your house
1:11:54and then i don't i'm not like oh you
1:11:56know we're gonna go out and we're gonna
1:11:57do this we're gonna do that i'm just
1:11:58like oh yeah no we'll build the house
1:12:00we'll and then it's like oh yeah you
1:12:02know i don't really
1:12:04push it i'm just like all right well
1:12:05this is what we're doing so
1:12:08they sign the contracts and then we
1:12:09sabotage them with building science
1:12:12[Laughter]
1:12:15with
1:12:17your company name sort of maybe is a
1:12:19clue to what you prefer to do like main
1:12:22passive house like but so
1:12:25you know we did have a client um
1:12:29that um a self-proclaimed tree hater
1:12:33told me when we started this project
1:12:37we had this project and i told the guy i
1:12:39was like hey we got to cut some trees
1:12:40over here to blah blah make room for the
1:12:43parking area and he's like yes but you
1:12:45have my permission to cut every tree on
1:12:48my property
1:12:49so um
1:12:51but i to him i just said hey you know we
1:12:53can build your house the way
1:12:55the architect has it drawn up but um
1:12:58you know we can also build it like
1:13:01just a much better envelope you know
1:13:03it's going to be much more
1:13:05comfortable you know it's going to be
1:13:06more resilient
1:13:08um
1:13:09it's just going to be a better product
1:13:10and what i say a lot of times is like
1:13:12it's kind of like
1:13:14you know if you're going out and buying
1:13:15a brand new car you wouldn't go out and
1:13:17buy like
1:13:19a brand new um
1:13:21you know bmw from like 1985.
1:13:25you know you want to use like
1:13:282020 technology you know you want to
1:13:30have like you want the airbags you know
1:13:32you want the climate control you want
1:13:34the comfort you want the
1:13:36the safety the health all those things
1:13:38you know what i mean and like the way
1:13:40that two by six walls were like
1:13:41cellulose i mean with like fiberglass
1:13:44bats that's like it's just not current
1:13:47technology it's like why would you do
1:13:48that it's like spend a little bit more
1:13:50money
1:13:52and get a much better product and pay
1:13:54less energy cost and you're probably
1:13:56going to end up with the same monthly
1:13:57expenses so that's kind of like my go-to
1:14:00thing but i don't really
1:14:03i really don't push it so much because i
1:14:05think if you have a client who's coming
1:14:06to you and they want to build the house
1:14:08you know you
1:14:09i don't know how many people are going
1:14:10in there and they're saying like oh yeah
1:14:12you know we're going to use like two by
1:14:14six kiln dried studs and we're gonna
1:14:15frame it up like you know 24 on center
1:14:18and we're gonna have the headers they're
1:14:19gonna be made out of like you know
1:14:21two by twelve and we're gonna do
1:14:24you know we're gonna have
1:14:26whatever you're putting into the house i
1:14:27think
1:14:28you know clients want like the space and
1:14:30stuff like that so yeah if they ask i'll
1:14:32go into it but
1:14:34um i just kind of
1:14:36try to not make a big deal about it and
1:14:38then we do what we want to do
1:14:42good approach
1:14:43st
1:14:45steve demetric um answers it with if the
1:14:48customer sees value in building a better
1:14:49building outside of the traditional
1:14:51matrix of return on investment there's
1:14:53no need to sell the upgrade so that
1:14:56seems like a good approach
1:15:00that we
1:15:02they're talking about cars now
1:15:05back at the very beginning of your
1:15:07presentation
1:15:08i missed it but you must have said
1:15:10something
1:15:11about this bill uh needle bill robinson
1:15:14asks what are the three things that make
1:15:16it resilient so were there three things
1:15:19that you mentioned
1:15:20about resilience or is that something
1:15:22that bills bill's bringing in
1:15:25that's just the word i throw in there so
1:15:27it sounds good
1:15:28um well i think you know the
1:15:32um
1:15:33resilient in terms of like you know
1:15:36the house not freezing right super
1:15:38insulated and airtight so
1:15:40um
1:15:42just the house
1:15:43not going down like you know
1:15:46let's take an example in texas
1:15:48you know if the power grid goes down
1:15:50you're not like
1:15:51totally screwed so that's one thing the
1:15:54rain screen
1:15:55you know having it vented
1:15:58so the materials last longer the
1:16:01attention to air sealing so that you
1:16:03don't have like
1:16:05warm moist air migrating through your
1:16:07walls and condensing inside of your
1:16:08walls and cause causing rot and
1:16:11mold
1:16:13um
1:16:15you know
1:16:17that's that's i guess those are the big
1:16:18things in my mind just that yeah it's
1:16:20resilient in terms of like
1:16:22you're not gonna die inside that
1:16:23building if you don't have power and the
1:16:25other thing is the building's just gonna
1:16:26last longer because we're paying more
1:16:28attention
1:16:29to the envelope itself so it's not gonna
1:16:32deteriorate as fast as it would if we're
1:16:34just kind of like slapping it all
1:16:35together
1:16:40i like to talk about european standards
1:16:42in this application like
1:16:44i don't travel a lot but i did get to
1:16:46visit spain last year or the year before
1:16:49i guess and i was taken with how
1:16:51things had been cared for for generation
1:16:54after generation and i think that your
1:16:56approach with your retrofit speaks to
1:16:58that if you do pass your home on to your
1:17:00your kids or whoever buys the home the
1:17:03level of investment that you've input
1:17:06warrants a level of care that makes that
1:17:09initial investment worthwhile regardless
1:17:11of the economics of it
1:17:12because it's now something that's
1:17:14valuable to the environment in the world
1:17:16at large it's not just a moment it's not
1:17:18just a return on investment in your
1:17:21ownership in your lifespan it's
1:17:23something that
1:17:24is part of the built environment until
1:17:26it's not and it has that level of value
1:17:29in my mind
1:17:32yeah i mean
1:17:34i think just you know
1:17:36somebody said to me like hey if you're
1:17:37gonna do something you might as well do
1:17:39it well
1:17:40so i guess that's kind of what i'm
1:17:42thinking like if you're going to build
1:17:43something you might as well do it well
1:17:44you know it's going to take a little
1:17:46more
1:17:47a little more
1:17:48money probably a little more time
1:17:51a little more attention to detail but
1:17:53you know it might make the difference
1:17:55between having it stand for like you
1:17:56know
1:17:5750 years or you know 100 200 years
1:18:04it seems like you'd have presented on
1:18:06these two projects a couple of times at
1:18:09least in the past and
1:18:11i'm wondering um if
1:18:13when you're
1:18:15working with clients
1:18:17newly working with clients if if one or
1:18:20both of these projects are
1:18:22examples that you
1:18:24share with
1:18:25with potential new clients um and and
1:18:28why what what do you point out here
1:18:31for them to learn from and potentially
1:18:34steer them in a direction
1:18:39um
1:18:41you know i think we're lucky that
1:18:44people come to us probably because they
1:18:46know what we're doing so
1:18:49we we don't have to work so hard at
1:18:50selling it
1:18:52um
1:18:54but
1:18:56i think the
1:18:57you know we'd like to get into more
1:18:59retrofits i mean
1:19:00new construction is easy i mean
1:19:03easier
1:19:05but i think both anna and i really like
1:19:08um
1:19:10it's just cool to to bring new life to
1:19:12to existing buildings
1:19:15um
1:19:15yeah i i will say oxbow is cool because
1:19:18you can just say hey go check out oxbow
1:19:20and you can kind of see an example of
1:19:22our finnish carpentry you know because
1:19:24we're called main passive house but you
1:19:25don't really you know
1:19:27think of us as like a fine finish
1:19:29company until you see those products and
1:19:32the expo is really cool because you
1:19:33could just walk right in you don't need
1:19:34an invitation so that's nice
1:19:44yeah i was gonna say there's um like a
1:19:46million questions on the list and so
1:19:48kylie might have to just like post all
1:19:50the questions on gba and ask anna and
1:19:54yes but to just answer all the questions
1:19:56on the blog post afterwards because
1:19:58there's so many questions about uh you
1:20:01know construction i mean stuff all the
1:20:02way back from the beginning someone
1:20:04asked if you put the mento over zip on
1:20:06oxbow
1:20:07is the mento over some kind of sheathing
1:20:10at oxbow
1:20:14so the mento
1:20:16we didn't sheave the outside of those um
1:20:20double studs did we espa
1:20:23no i think it's not just over the old
1:20:25bond boards yeah and then the
1:20:28the edition had zipboard on it
1:20:31um
1:20:32and that was it then there was no mentor
1:20:34that was it yeah and then we taped the
1:20:36mento to it so we weren't covering the
1:20:38zip with mento um the rest was just old
1:20:40barn wood that we wrapped with the mento
1:20:44and i think with the oxbow right it was
1:20:46of recently we were like
1:20:49i mean that project we worked so hard to
1:20:51kind of like
1:20:52you know just sell it for like you know
1:20:55we'll do it for like a quarter million
1:20:56dollars you know we'll put like you know
1:20:58two inches of foam on the outside you
1:21:00know and then we just kind of managed to
1:21:02kind of like roll it into more and more
1:21:04so
1:21:05that addition there was like just two by
1:21:08six wall framing i think with zip
1:21:10sheathing on it right i think
1:21:12yeah
1:21:13and then so actually the older building
1:21:16is much more efficient than the edition
1:21:22that's awesome there were some other
1:21:23questions too i mean while they're
1:21:25talking about framing did you buy one by
1:21:27twos or did you make your own
1:21:31we ripped them out of two by six right
1:21:35for the
1:21:36i don't know if she's talking about the
1:21:37two by twos that are on the inside of
1:21:39the foundation wall or the
1:21:54davis asks uh
1:21:57what uh he
1:22:00he's he he's new to these high
1:22:02performance european membranes and tapes
1:22:03what kind of longevity do you expect
1:22:06against airflow and moisture he's in a
1:22:09dry dry southwest heat heat and dry air
1:22:12tend to kill adhesives um i know you
1:22:15guys probably don't have experience with
1:22:16the heat and dry but what do you what do
1:22:17you think about the longevity of these
1:22:19products we're using
1:22:24well they all have um
1:22:27exposure limitations so pay attention to
1:22:30that like before you side and everything
1:22:32like that um but that's pretty much the
1:22:34extent of what i would know about that
1:22:36i will say that um
1:22:39the tape being taped onto the membrane
1:22:42it definitely gets stronger over time
1:22:44right so you tape it on
1:22:46and you can peel it off the next day but
1:22:48if you come back a week later there's no
1:22:50peeling it off
1:22:52but yeah sunlight and exposure will
1:22:55definitely break it down
1:23:02travis
1:23:03oh i was just saying that's true of all
1:23:05materials everything's got a uv rate
1:23:06yeah so there's nothing specifically
1:23:09deficient about minto or the tape
1:23:11because
1:23:12of the uv rating you just have to pay
1:23:13attention to it right like any building
1:23:15material product but there are different
1:23:17types of mento that can last longer in
1:23:20the sun so that's something to consider
1:23:22as well
1:23:24right
1:23:25dude
1:23:27do you guys ever ever ever ever ever do
1:23:31do
1:23:32open joint cladding
1:23:34is is that a
1:23:36thing in your your area
1:23:38i have we haven't done any but i do know
1:23:41that i think proclaiming they do make a
1:23:43membrane
1:23:45that can
1:23:46handle that
1:23:51and i just saw some
1:23:52i was just gonna say i just saw somebody
1:23:54i just saw somebody ask what was the
1:23:55roof at oxbow and it was just corrugated
1:23:58metal roofing so
1:24:00screw down yeah i think we're probably
1:24:03only like a third of the way through the
1:24:04questions that mike was pulling out of
1:24:06the chat box and i lost the chat box
1:24:08about a half an hour ago so there's
1:24:09probably even more questions
1:24:12but uh
1:24:13it's unfortunately getting close to that
1:24:16time um and so i don't know uh if you
1:24:19guys want to weigh in on um either i
1:24:22guess for me i would say either of these
1:24:24two projects or do you have another deep
1:24:26energy retrofit that you've done that
1:24:29you you know there's some takeaway that
1:24:31that
1:24:32we get asked a lot about renovations and
1:24:34we talk a lot more about new
1:24:35construction on here so um anything to
1:24:38impart on renovations deep energy
1:24:41retrofits you know energy fit
1:24:44from both of you guys
1:24:48well i think the
1:24:50what we were trying to highlight here is
1:24:51there's so many different approaches to
1:24:54it um and i think
1:24:56really paying attention to either
1:24:58yourself or your client whoever you're
1:25:00doing it for and their needs in that
1:25:03space is going to make it that much more
1:25:05successful
1:25:07if you can build out and avoid
1:25:08disrupting their lives that's great if
1:25:11you haven't finished the interior and
1:25:13building in makes sense then go for it
1:25:15but i think case by case is really
1:25:17important
1:25:21and um i would just say
1:25:23the
1:25:24symmetry of the um the shape of the
1:25:27building
1:25:28um
1:25:30makes a big difference too right we just
1:25:32uh we're working on this
1:25:35workshop that we this old bond that we
1:25:37bought in in brian pond
1:25:39and it's just a rectangle with a square
1:25:41roof and it's been so satisfying working
1:25:43on it because it's so
1:25:45you know you can cover so much ground in
1:25:48a relatively short time but
1:25:50you know if you had like this
1:25:51gingerbread house
1:25:53it might be a very different uh story so
1:25:56just another thing to to keep in mind
1:25:59and i would just say finally um
1:26:02yeah i mean if there's a place that
1:26:03these questions could be posted i think
1:26:05i'd i'd definitely be happy guessing
1:26:07probably honor would too to go in and
1:26:10and try and answer them um
1:26:12after
1:26:13maybe not tonight but you know in the
1:26:14next couple of days well i'll jump in
1:26:16here and say that
1:26:18going through the entire chat box
1:26:20pulling out questions is probably not a
1:26:22great use of time but if people have
1:26:25um
1:26:26you know lingering questions that they
1:26:28would like answered then um
1:26:31put them on the in the comment section
1:26:33of the blog post that i will put up on
1:26:36sunday morning and you can
1:26:38have a conversation over there
1:26:41that'd be the best way to do it
1:26:43yeah so the the replay will go up on
1:26:45green building advisor and all the
1:26:47people who watch it after the fact can
1:26:50also ask you all their burning questions
1:26:52so don't agree to uh answer too many
1:26:56every time
1:26:59so
1:27:01all right any final thoughts from the
1:27:02brew crew i think i think we're good i
1:27:05think it's okay to
1:27:06i'm actually i'm so glad that we have
1:27:08this i just want to jump in and say i'm
1:27:10so happy that you uh you shed some light
1:27:12on a mistake that i made so um i need to
1:27:15right now go and edit my text yes about
1:27:18your house because i learned something
1:27:20here tonight that i got wrong
1:27:23all right
1:27:24i think everyone that watches the show
1:27:26learns something so that's good to have
1:27:28you in the mix kylie thanks so much to
1:27:30yes and anna ford and anna for joining
1:27:33us tonight i'm sorry i got super formal
1:27:35and british all of a sudden you're anna
1:27:37i'm actually anna so you're good okay
1:27:39damn it
1:27:42this is way too much out
1:27:45thank you both for joining us you did an
1:27:47excellent job with your presentation and
1:27:48you did an excellent job on both of
1:27:49those builds uh thanks for teaching me
1:27:52something tonight and for everyone that
1:27:53joined us thanks a lot have a great
1:27:55night thanks guys
1:27:57everyone thank you for coming
1:27:59[Music]
1:28:04[Music]

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