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Daughter of Gloriavale: My Life in a Religious Cult — Transcript

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0:00People bought into wanting a better
0:01lives for their families, wanting to
0:04live in a community of people where all
0:06things were shared because they run
0:08every single part of your life.
0:10Schooling, housing, clothing, finances.
0:13[music]
0:14There's no part of your life that really
0:17belongs to you. Glorivale is very Amish
0:19adjacent and interestingly enough was
0:22founded by my grandfather. He had
0:24multiple counts of
0:26assault and charges against him. We
0:28didn't know this. We knew he'd spend
0:30time in jail, but the propaganda was he
0:34was persecuted for his faith
0:36>> Absolutely.
0:37>> believed in.
0:38I grew up thinking that men were above
0:41me and that I had to submit my will to
0:44them. Watching babies beat black and
0:48blue, like babies, young people who were
0:51not fitting into Glorivale, the
0:54rebellious. They would be taken into
0:56these meetings that were hours upon
0:57hours of psychological torture to these
1:00teenagers who are trying to find their
1:01way in the world. But I'm a kid growing
1:04up in this environment. I didn't even
1:06know what was quite wrong cuz I'm taught
1:09that these things are right and good and
1:11my critical thinking that started to
1:12kind of drop in. And I was like, I don't
1:15think I don't think this is right.
1:18>> Mine is the only [music] voice.
1:20>> What have I been doing?
1:22>> Lay down my autonomy.
1:25>> After that it got very dark very
1:27quickly.
1:33>> Hey guys, my name is Shelise Ann Sola
1:35and this is Colts to Consciousness where
1:37we discuss leaving high demand religions
1:39or organizations and finding healing and
1:41independence through awareness and true
1:43individual sovereignty. If you're only
1:45listening and you would prefer to see
1:46our faces and support the show in the
1:48best way that you could going over to
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1:57helps more people become aware and more
1:59compassionate of these people who are
2:00bravely coming on and sharing their
2:02stories with us today. Today's guest,
2:04I'm thrilled to finally have made this
2:06happen. We've been in contact for over a
2:08year. You guys, our audience, have been
2:10asking for this group for over a year,
2:13probably since we started actually. And
2:15so, I'm so excited to finally get into
2:17this topic with someone who has been in
2:20it, was born in it, and left. We're
2:22talking about Gloriavale today. So,
2:24thank you so much for joining us, Lilia
2:26Tarawa.
2:27>> Hi, how's it going?
2:28>> It's going great. I'm just, again, I'm
2:31just so excited. So, Gloriavale, for
2:34people who aren't familiar, it's based
2:36in New Zealand. You're currently in New
2:37Zealand, and I'm going to let you give
2:39the background cuz I don't want to
2:40butcher anything, but it is a group
2:42that, from an outsider's perspective,
2:45having done so many interviews on this
2:46channel, it feels almost like
2:49Amish-adjacent. I don't know if you
2:51would feel the same way.
2:52>> Yeah, totally. I mean, I guess we
2:54probably should dive into like what
2:56Gloriavale is, and what it looks like,
2:58and give a little bit of my background.
2:59I'm also very excited to be on the
3:01podcast as well.
3:03I absolutely love your style, and I
3:05think the work that you're sharing here,
3:07letting people share these stories, and
3:09providing a platform for that, is so
3:11important. So, super happy and excited
3:15to be here as well.
3:16>> Great.
3:16>> Um but you're right, Gloriavale is very
3:19Amish-adjacent, and interestingly
3:21enough, so Gloriavale was founded by my
3:23grandfather, who was a
3:26he was a evangelical Christian preacher
3:28over in Australia, and he used to go
3:31around out to a lot of like campaigning
3:34into the outback to like evangelize the
3:37word of God, basically. And he got
3:40invited over to a church in New Zealand,
3:43which is why he ended up coming over
3:44here, and eventually that church he took
3:47over, that church had separated with the
3:50church he had been invited to because
3:53there were
3:54differences in opinion and then
3:55ultimately he moved everyone over to the
3:58west coast, which is very, very
4:00isolated. Like the west coast is like
4:03the what-whats for New Zealand. And New
4:05Zealand itself is the what-whats. Like
4:08but you know, like Gloriavale is so
4:11completely isolated and I think that's
4:13one of the things that ended up
4:14happening is where the control really
4:17started to take over because the people
4:19there were living in such isolation from
4:21rest of society. So Gloriavale, everyone
4:25in Gloriavale wears a uniform. So I grew
4:28up wearing a full blue length dress.
4:31It's like for women it's like head
4:33coverings as well. So we had white head
4:35coverings and scarves that we would put
4:38on our heads or white hats that almost
4:40looks like the Amish. And the men would
4:43wear blue pants and blue shirt. So women
4:46definitely cover up to your neck down to
4:48your ankles and to your wrists as well
4:50as a head covering.
4:52Um and these
4:54outfits were designed by my grandfather.
4:56So he did visit some of the Amish and
4:59Hutterite communities over in the United
5:01States and took inspiration from what
5:04they were doing and how they were living
5:06because that's the type of community and
5:09commune that he had wanted to design.
5:11And he really felt like that this is how
5:13women should be dressed because women
5:16were in his view to be in submission to
5:18men. So the head covering was a sign of
5:21submission to God and submission to man
5:23as well. So any males. Um so that's how
5:26I grew up. I grew up thinking that men
5:28were above me and that I had to submit
5:32my will to them. And you grow up in a
5:36uniform and an outfit every single day
5:38that you put on that is reiterating this
5:41belief. So really like Gloriavale, just
5:45so people get a sense of it, I
5:47I want to just tell a little bit about
5:50what the commune's like, what it's like
5:52to live there. How does that sound?
5:54>> Yeah, perfect. I would love to get into
5:56the rules of daily lifestyle, the ways
5:58that you had to conform, and what an
5:59interesting fact that it actually was
6:01inspired by the Amish and in some ways
6:03was more strict because at least the
6:05Amish could have a little bit of
6:07variation in design and color, and your
6:10uniform felt a little bit more frilly
6:13and feminine, but still not hugging the
6:15figure at all. You would said in one of
6:17your interviews that it was not
6:18flattering. You weren't meant to be
6:20appealing to men, but that's so
6:22interesting that they were connected.
6:24>> Yeah, and when you say, you know, you
6:26you weren't meant to be appealing to
6:28men, it's like you are supposed to be
6:30appealing in a different way. Like
6:32appealing to a man in the fact that
6:34you're submissive to him, and he can do
6:36whatever he wants to you. So, that's a
6:39completely different type of attraction,
6:43if you if you want to call it that.
6:46>> Yeah. Like we were very much like the
6:48Gloriavale was highly sexualized. Like
6:50everything about the environment, it's
6:52purity culture, no sex before marriage,
6:55arranged marriages, you come to a
6:57marriage as a virgin.
6:59For people that aren't virgins, they're
7:01looked at as being unclean. And these
7:04were really like all the ideologies that
7:06I was growing up with. From on a
7:08day-to-day basis, it really looks like
7:11you get up, you put on your uniform, and
7:14you live in a hostel.
7:16So, the hostels usually have about three
7:19stories, and then there's 12 families
7:22that live on one story. Each family has
7:24one room to live in, and there's bunk
7:27beds in that room, and the parents have
7:30like one half of that room separated by
7:32a only a curtain from the children,
7:36and then the children live in bunk beds
7:38on the other side of that room. So, like
7:40I'm at home now, and the size of my
7:44laundry room, just my laundry room, is
7:46the size of the room that I grew up with
7:49my entire family sharing and living in.
7:52Wow. Like, it's it's just a completely
7:55different world. But, it was totally,
7:58totally normal to me.
8:00So, I'd wake up, go to my family closet
8:03in this room, put on my dress, go to my
8:05shared family mirror, like we had one
8:07and I was always fighting with my
8:08brother and sisters over trying to get
8:10ready in the morning. I'd put my
8:12headscarf on,
8:14and then we'd go to work. So, we worked
8:17and all the work was communal as well.
8:19So, women were keepers at home. Um that
8:23was how we were taught we were supposed
8:24to be. So, we only were to do tasks that
8:27were like cooking, cleaning, child's
8:31care. And all the women were rostered on
8:34a 14 rotating roster to do all these
8:37particular tasks. So, from a very young
8:42age, like 6 years old, I started working
8:45in the kitchens. Unpaid work, 6 years
8:48old, I'm getting up at 6:00 a.m. in the
8:50morning to go to the kitchens and cook
8:52toast for everyone for breakfast because
8:55everyone would come in for breakfast
8:57from their homes, I call them homes, but
8:59the hostels, from their rooms really.
9:02And then there'd be six massive big long
9:06tables in a huge big mess hall and you
9:09would sit at your family's assigned slot
9:11on those tables and you would you would
9:14eat whatever was served that morning.
9:16So, everything was just so communal and
9:19then the school was just next door.
9:21Like, you would walk out and like
9:23because they run every single part of
9:26your life, schooling, housing, clothing,
9:29finances, like
9:31there's no part of your life that really
9:34belongs to you.
9:35>> Yeah, I'm interested in how these
9:38families jumped on board seemingly
9:41quickly because if your grandfather
9:43started it, had you already been born or
9:45how did he attract so many families
9:47based on the footage that I've seen and
9:49you just said 12 families on one floor.
9:50It seems like there were quite a few
9:52people who were wanting to do this.
9:54>> Yeah, so
9:56it kind of got to that point. So, by the
9:58time I was born, like Gloria Vale really
10:01started as a small shared community over
10:04in Oxford in Christchurch. And at the
10:06time, like my grandfather used to tell
10:09this story about how he would go he went
10:12to church one day and he saw one family
10:14rock up and
10:15um had two beautiful fancy new cars and
10:18another family rocked up and they were
10:20pushing their baby in a pram in the rain
10:22because they didn't have a car to get to
10:24the church.
10:25And he said that his intention with it
10:28um was that there was equality and that
10:32there wasn't this disparity between the
10:34po- the those in poverty and those who
10:36are rich. And so, it started from this
10:39very good place and people bought into
10:42that. Like people bought into wanting a
10:45better lives for their families, wanting
10:48to live in a community of people where
10:50all things were shared. So, very slowly
10:53they started to share their belongings
10:55in common. So, first it was like fishing
10:58rods. They would just
11:00say, "Well, let's pull all our fishing
11:01rods in one locker and then one person
11:04can run that locker and if you want to
11:06borrow a fishing rod, all you have to do
11:08is rock up and ask to borrow it.
11:10You don't have to go and buy your own
11:12fishing rod." So, that becomes super
11:14attractive for people who can't afford
11:16their own fishing rod because they can
11:18have access to things and live in a way
11:20that's a better lifestyle than what they
11:23were already experiencing.
11:25So,
11:26that was kind of the progression and
11:28then I just it just they started putting
11:30their money into the same bank and then
11:32they started running their businesses
11:33together. And slowly over time, this
11:37became they just expanded and kind of
11:40scaled, really, to being, "Okay, well,
11:43now we need a bigger farm." So, they
11:46moved all over to
11:49uh the West Coast, Hokitika Valley. And
11:52yeah, by then, they plotted out how they
11:55were going to build the hostels. And I
11:58was a baby at that point. So, I, you
12:02know, came over, I remember
12:04Well, I don't remember when I was a
12:05baby, but all of my incredibly child
12:09like young childhood memories were in
12:11the valley there. So, I was born during
12:14this transition period. We They were
12:16moving from Oxford Coast in Christchurch
12:20across That's on the East Coast of New
12:22Zealand to the West Coast of New
12:24Zealand.
12:25>> That is interesting, and it does sound
12:28appealing, and sounds like something
12:30that a young family would be interested
12:32in, sharing the workload, having a
12:35village to raise the kids. And I feel
12:36like I'm a broken record here cuz just
12:38yesterday I did an interview with
12:39someone from 12 Tribes. I don't know if
12:41you're familiar with that group, but
12:44it's very similar. It's just all
12:45communal. Everyone kind of dresses the
12:47same. The child care is all kind of
12:50divvied up. You don't really raise your
12:52kids, but then it's so tightly
12:55controlled that you can barely breathe
12:57without permission. And so,
12:58>> Right.
12:59>> before we get into the really difficult
13:00parts of life, I think it's worth noting
13:03some of the things that you enjoyed or
13:05the positive memories that you had
13:07growing up as a child until you really
13:09understood how tightly controlled it
13:10was.
13:11>> the thing with groups and communes and
13:13cults like this. There's this real sense
13:16of belonging and closeness and community
13:21that as a human being is so fulfilling
13:25and that connection that we all kind of
13:28crave as social animals is it's just
13:31there.
13:32Uh and so that was really one of the
13:34things I loved. Like instead of having
13:38just a small family where say now I live
13:42in my home with my partner, it's just us
13:44us living in this home, but for me
13:46growing up it was I had a family of 500
13:51who I lived in a home with. I was
13:53playing cards with my friends at nights.
13:56I was loving working alongside um my
13:59friends in the kitchens. And you really
14:01enjoy those things. You You feel like
14:04you have purpose and a sense of
14:06belonging and your life is meaningful.
14:10I think my best memories were also
14:12because the West Coast of New Zealand's
14:14absolutely stunning. Like it is
14:17prehistoric. It is just the most lush,
14:20beautiful rainforest, beautiful
14:23black-stained beach lakes. Like it's
14:25just incredible. Pastures, mountains,
14:29the works. And it's a really untouched
14:32part of the world and I grew up climbing
14:34trees in this place and running around
14:37with my friends and swimming in the
14:39creeks and rivers. And that was the
14:42really great part of being in
14:45Gloriavale. It's when the control starts
14:48to happen and the religion really creeps
14:50in and I can't even say that it crept in
14:53at a certain point in my life because
14:56you were literally just constantly
14:58immersed in religion, at the dinner
15:02table, at your school, every single part
15:05of your life, what you dress, it what
15:08you eat is all based around religion,
15:11which is Christianity in this case. And
15:13they follow the King James version of
15:15the Bible, their interpretation of it.
15:18It was about 10 and that's the time when
15:22I was 10 that you start to be expected
15:24to become baptized. So they say once
15:27you're 10 years old, you should have
15:29enough knowledge to make a decision
15:32about your religious beliefs. And at
15:35this point, you have to make a decision,
15:37am I going to be a Christian? I don't
15:40really know that there's any other
15:42decision to be made in an environment
15:44like that as a 10-year-old. And why
15:47would a 10-year-old be in a position to
15:49make decisions about their spiritual
15:52life? They haven't gone through any life
15:54experiences by that point, and they're
15:56still children.
15:58So at this point, I decided, okay, well,
16:00I have to be baptized. That's my next
16:02step. So
16:04you say to the leaders, I want to be
16:06baptized, and you start attending
16:08baptism meetings. And this is where I
16:11started having some questions because
16:13one of the leaders started to speak in
16:15tongues.
16:16And I said, the curious Lillian said,
16:20"Well, can you show us how it's done?
16:22Because it seems so odd to me. Like,
16:25what is this thing where you're
16:26possessed by a spirit, and then you just
16:28speak in a language that you literally
16:30have not known?"
16:32>> [snorts]
16:32>> And um
16:34so the leader demonstrated to me, and I
16:35kind of thought, "Oh, that's that just
16:37sounds very weird. He just sounds like
16:40garbled mess coming out of his mouth."
16:42But kind of tucked that disbelief into
16:44the back of my mind, and obviously still
16:46got baptized. Went down to a creek. The
16:49whole church gathers on either side of
16:52the creek, and it was raining on the day
16:55I was baptized. You walk into the water.
16:57It was freezing.
16:59It was me and a few other children who
17:01were getting baptized. And then if they
17:04believe in full immersion baptism,
17:07so you stand there, and you declare what
17:10you
17:11want to say, and like what you believe.
17:14And really, it's just copying things
17:17you've heard, things you've been told,
17:19what's been on first. Like, you're just
17:21saying these things that you've heard so
17:23much in the world around you. And then
17:25they dunk you under
17:27um to fully wash away all of your sins,
17:30bring you back up, and you're new
17:32person.
17:34So, I did this at 10 years old. Like,
17:36that was my first major event in terms
17:39of me becoming a Christian and being
17:43inducted into Gloriavale. Even though I
17:45was born there from and
17:48lived my whole life there.
17:49>> Yeah, the same is for Mormons, it's So,
17:53I grew up Mormon and or Church of Jesus
17:55Christ of Latter-day Saints as they
17:56prefer to be called now, but the age of
17:59accountability is what they call it and
18:01that's eight. And same thing, you go in
18:04there you even do an interview with the
18:06bishop to see if you're worthy or ready
18:08and it's just rehearsed answers. Like,
18:11yes, I believe the church is true. Yes,
18:13I believe Joseph Smith is a true
18:14prophet. And I mean, I don't even
18:16remember my interview because I was a
18:18kid and to me it was just like, sure,
18:20yes, whatever you want.
18:21Yes, I want to get baptized.
18:22>> What else are you going to say? What are
18:23you going to say?
18:24>> Yeah, if you don't, you're the odd one
18:26out, shame on your family, and it always
18:29kind of drives me crazy when I see these
18:31posts from
18:33people who are like, I'm just so proud
18:35of my daughter who chose to get
18:37baptized. I'm like, she didn't choose
18:38anything. Like, she didn't really have a
18:41choice. Did she really have a choice to
18:42say no? Did she know that she could say
18:44no? Probably not.
18:45>> Yeah.
18:46>> And you think that you want it because
18:48everyone is praising you for making that
18:50choice. And so, it's the illusion of
18:52choice that I talk about all the time
18:54where you think that you can do whatever
18:57you want within these rules, but I'm
19:00choosing to follow those rules, so it's
19:02really not a terrible thing. And people
19:05who grew up in these environments,
19:06specifically in your case where you're
19:08completely isolated, that's all you
19:10know, you don't know any different. Now
19:12looking back on those childhood things
19:15or the positives or things that maybe
19:18you didn't really like or understand,
19:19but it was your normal. Can you think
19:21back to some memories where you're like,
19:23you know what, that was actually really
19:24problematic from my new perspective?
19:27>> Oh, yeah, absolutely. So like, you know,
19:30you talk about shame and just to touch
19:32on what you mentioned about children
19:34making decisions in the age of
19:35accountability, is I don't believe that
19:38there are Christian children. They're
19:40just children of Christian parents who
19:42have
19:43taught them to be a certain way. Because
19:46at
19:47when you're a child, you are not in a
19:50position to make decisions about your
19:52life like that. And you're not fully
19:54developed. Your brain isn't even fully
19:56developed. But you talk you talk about
19:59shame, you know, the shame that if I
20:01don't do this, then what will my friends
20:03think? What will my family think? I'll
20:05be rejected. I'll be shunned. Like
20:07shunning is a really big part of how
20:11Gloriavale have lived. So it was the
20:14whole
20:16um I am come to tear a man asunder from
20:19his family and wife, that kind of thing.
20:21Like it was
20:23religion being taught in a way that if
20:25you don't believe what I believe, then
20:28you have no place here. And that if you
20:31don't turn your back on friends or
20:33family who don't believe or submit to
20:37what the leaders say, then and have no
20:40contact with them and just break
20:42contact, then you know, you're not being
20:45a good Christian and you're putting your
20:47own salvation at risk. So these
20:49practices of shunning became like that
20:52was one of the things where I was like,
20:54that doesn't seem right to me.
20:56Naturally, I'm a very loving, nurturing,
20:59protective person.
21:00And then I just look at some of the the
21:04things that I was doing and saying to
21:06friends and family who had left
21:08Gloriavale and I'm like, how could I
21:11have been that person as a child? How
21:13could I say those things? And it's
21:15because of the environment that I was in
21:16that was forcing me to say, well, I want
21:18nothing to do with you kind of thing.
21:21And then also the shaming like very like
21:24they were the meal times that I
21:26described where you've got all the big
21:27tables. So, there's a big stage up in
21:30front of that that's used for concerts,
21:32performances, talks, speeches, all that
21:35kind of thing. So,
21:37if someone was misbehaving or someone
21:39wasn't fitting into the rules or the
21:42things that they were told to do,
21:44I remember they would get marched up on
21:46the stage and be made to face turn
21:51around with their back to the audience
21:53and stand on stage like the entire meal
21:57table
21:58to just shame them for their behavior.
22:02>> Oh, wow.
22:03>> And very quickly you learn
22:07that you don't want to be put in that
22:08position.
22:09And parents learn that they need to try
22:12to discipline their children first so
22:15their children aren't put in even worse
22:18situations. So, it just becomes this
22:20toxic like abuse that just filters down
22:25from the leadership where it's, you
22:28know, parents are actually abusing their
22:30children and like strapping them and
22:33like trying to get them in line first in
22:36order to almost protect them from a
22:38worse level of punishment where they
22:40would be taken into, like you say,
22:42bishops. We called them the servants and
22:44shepherds, which is a group of men who
22:48run and control the community and make
22:50all the decisions. So, if there were
22:52young people who were not fitting into
22:55Gloriavale or not wanting being they
22:57called them rebellious, they would be
23:00taken into these meetings that were
23:02hours and hours long where they were
23:04just completely harassed and like just
23:07told they were going to hell, they're
23:09person, they're like
23:13filled with the devil, they're filled
23:15with Satan, they're completely worthless
23:17and useless to the community. It's just
23:20hours upon hours of psychological
23:22torture to these teenagers who are
23:24trying to find their way in the world.
23:26And that's what happens if you disagree.
23:29So, these were the things I started to
23:31see
23:32and I was like, this doesn't
23:35feel right to me. Something feels wrong.
23:39But, I'm a kid growing up in this
23:40environment. All I I didn't even know
23:43what was quite wrong in a lot of
23:45instances I'm cuz I'm taught that these
23:48things are right and good.
23:50But, then there's this natural my
23:52conscience that started and my critical
23:54thinking that started to kind of drop in
23:57and I was like, I don't think
23:59I don't think this is right.
24:01And then there was a very
24:03graphic example where I remember being
24:07in a
24:08high school classroom and
24:12a one of the leaders who was the
24:14shepherd, so there were three shepherds,
24:16so he's the top of the top in Gloriva.
24:19He charged into this room, we're in high
24:22school at this point, rips his son out
24:24of his chair, takes marches him to the
24:27front of the class,
24:29bends him over,
24:31pulls his pants down, and starts belting
24:33him with a leather belt because he's
24:35been evil or wrong or whatever.
24:39And I just couldn't even look at it.
24:42And I was like, this is wrong. And I'm a
24:45high school listener in there and I'm
24:47like, I'm not looking at this. This is
24:49wrong. I can't watch this. And that was
24:52when my respect for the leaders started
24:55to really crumble because I was like why
24:58am I living in this place where it's
25:01okay to do these kind of things. It's
25:04just completely
25:06inappropriate, cruel, like just wrong.
25:10>> Yeah, it's incredibly common, especially
25:13with groups here in the US that are more
25:15of the fundamentalist evangelical or
25:17fundamentalist Christian where they use
25:20the Bible to not only
25:23not only justify child abuse, but
25:26encourage it. And was it the same there
25:29where that was seen as a biblical thing
25:31to do and this father felt like he was
25:33justified and he needed to do it in
25:35order to essentially, in his mind, beat
25:38the sin out of this young kid?
25:40>> Yeah, absolutely. Like people are
25:42completely radicalized in environments
25:45like that. And people with a tendency to
25:47be to extreme anyway just
25:49basically
25:51can kind of get away with it because
25:52it's so so encouraged and that's seen as
25:55being the the good ones.
25:57>> Mhm.
25:57>> So, um you know, and this person what he
26:00was definitely a person one of those
26:02personalities where he was so so extreme
26:05with everything. Like gosh, the some of
26:08the stories I could tell like just
26:09horrible stories. But you're yeah,
26:13you're totally right. Like it's the
26:15spare the rod spoil the child. So, this
26:17is love. Like if I don't hit you, I
26:20don't love you. Which is just
26:24mental. Like now as an adult, the idea
26:27of like
26:28hitting one of my little nieces or
26:31nephews is just
26:34insane to me. But I grew up watching
26:38babies get beat black and blue. Like
26:42babies.
26:43>> What?
26:43>> What because they were crying.
26:46That's crazy to me now. Like and looking
26:49back these are the experiences that
26:51really growing up it was
26:54all the abuse that I was seeing that
26:56ultimately kind of was leading me to
26:58this point of is this somewhere I want
27:01to be?
27:02>> That's what creates such a dangerous
27:03environment too. Aside from the obvious
27:05abuse, you're teaching these children
27:08that abuse should be accepted which
27:11creates scenarios for kids to not
27:14understand that maybe they're in an even
27:16worse situation, but they don't question
27:18it because they're used to being put
27:20down and harmed by authorities. And so
27:23it could go so much further than just
27:25physical abuse. It could go emotional,
27:27sexual,
27:28spiritual abuse. I mean you you've
27:30talked about your own experiences of how
27:32you were shamed by your own grandfather
27:34just for experience or just by
27:37demonstrating leadership qualities. And
27:39I want to get to that story too, but
27:42first I want to hear your thoughts on
27:44anything else that you noticed going
27:46awry or
27:48going unchecked because of this
27:50environment of control and submission to
27:53the authorities.
27:54>> Well, you know you talk about all the
27:56forms of abuse and I've lived and and
28:00seen people experience literally all of
28:03these. So you're right. It's the
28:06environment creates this environment
28:09that is so toxic where these type of
28:12types of things start to thrive because
28:14there's absolutely no accountability. So
28:17growing up we believed and we were
28:19taught that my grandfather was connected
28:22to God. So he was the word of God came
28:26from God through him to us.
28:28Which mean that every single thing that
28:30he said
28:31was actually God speaking to us.
28:34Which means that why would you ever
28:36question that or hold that accountable
28:39or believe that to be wrong?
28:41So my grandfather actually has like he
28:44had multiple counts of
28:46and charges against him. Went through a
28:48big court battle about it. He was
28:50jailed, if you didn't know this. So, he
28:53was jailed for a long period of time.
28:57People in Gloriavale,
28:59when I was growing up, we didn't know
29:02this. We knew he'd spent time in jail,
29:05but the propaganda was
29:07he was persecuted for his faith and what
29:10he believed in.
29:13>> The amount of times I hear this story,
29:15it drives me insane. It happens in every
29:17single group where there's the
29:19self-proclaimed prophet because they can
29:21get away with anything and it makes
29:22their members believe it even more.
29:24>> Yeah, absolutely. And so, like a lot of
29:27families later started to leave
29:29Gloriavale as they found this out and as
29:32this was exposed
29:34and as people, like I wrote about this
29:36in my book and then it it's also in Sins
29:38of the Father by Fleur Beale, amazing
29:41author. It's the story of my uncle who's
29:43Neville Cooper, my grandfather Neville
29:45Cooper. It's his son, Phil Cooper, wrote
29:47the book as well and it talks about all
29:50of this. Like, we had no clue that any
29:53of this was happening and there were
29:55some people that knew about it, but also
29:59excused the behavior. Like, "Oh, he was
30:02just trying to help that married couple
30:05with their sex life."
30:07And things like this that were just like
30:09So, most of us growing up in Gloriavale
30:11didn't know so much of the history
30:14because it was hidden from us. And how
30:16can you make decisions when
30:18there's no information given to you? So,
30:21there's no television or radio or like
30:25internet in there in Gloriavale either.
30:27There is internet for business purposes,
30:29but it's all highly highly controlled.
30:31There's no cell phones. So, this is when
30:33I was growing up. I think it's a little
30:35bit different now because there's been a
30:36lot of accountability through the courts
30:39in New Zealand now because we've been
30:41really fighting for the rights of the
30:44people living in there.
30:45But this is how you you know, this is
30:48why it's so dangerous in those
30:49environments. It's a bubble of just
30:52complete immersion in one way of
30:54thinking and one ideology with one
30:57person at the top who's completely
30:59unchecked and completely unaccountable.
31:01>> Was there a board you talked about
31:03people that you would have to be held
31:05accountable toward in those meetings?
31:07Were they kind of within this hierarchy
31:10or was he truly just at the top all the
31:12decisions?
31:13>> Yes, so he was called the overseeing
31:15shepherd and then there were two
31:17supporting shepherds. So they were the
31:19three shepherds. So that's the
31:20structure.
31:22And then there were I believe it was 10
31:24or 12 other men that managed different
31:27parts of the business. So
31:30it might be my father for example was in
31:32the moss business and he was looking
31:34after that and then there might be
31:35another person who's in like watch looks
31:38after the farming business, the
31:39construction business. So Gloriavale has
31:42a lot of businesses and they do very
31:45well because over the years they've had
31:46completely free labor because they of
31:48the way they've structured the
31:49lifestyle. They don't pay anyone
31:51anything.
31:52And they take tax benefits from the
31:54government because they are registered
31:57as a charity.
31:58So that was that kind of is the
32:01structure really and then you've got my
32:03mother was actually in terms of females,
32:06she was what we would call a
32:08housemother. So she was the highest
32:10authority that you could have as a
32:13female. And then there were a
32:16couple of other women who worked in the
32:18office supporting her. They didn't
32:19really have
32:21named titled roles, but they were sort
32:24of seen to be the leadership group of
32:27women and then all the women who are
32:29rostered on teams, they were the team
32:31leaders and then they were just the
32:33workers on the teams as well. So there's
32:35a very much this clear structure to the
32:39way that the organization and the
32:41institution functions.
32:43>> Mhm.
32:44If they have many successful businesses,
32:46but none of the money's really
32:49going to anyone in particular, how would
32:51you request funds for something that you
32:53needed?
32:54>> Well, you don't need money cuz
32:56everything's provided. So, um if you
33:00let's if I needed tampons, I would go to
33:03the woman who looks after the locker of
33:06tampons and pads and like
33:09stuff for women's periods like if I
33:12needed painkillers, and then that would
33:15I would ask that this is what I need and
33:17then that would just be given to me and
33:19everything was like keeps like a quota.
33:21So,
33:22families would have these like
33:25budgets, but they weren't like real. So,
33:28you could get allocated like a certain
33:32like if you wanted a Moro bar, there
33:34would be a there's like a
33:37communal candy area, but it's all locked
33:40up. But if you wanted a Moro bar, you
33:42could go buy a Moro bar from there, but
33:45not with real money, but you have to go
33:47through the system and it gets deducted
33:49from your family sort of allowance for
33:52things like that. But the money itself
33:55was all kept in communal bank accounts.
33:57Like we didn't need it on a daily basis.
34:00We had no interaction with the world
34:01around us. The the food we ate was put
34:04on the table. The clothes were all made
34:07in the communal room. So,
34:09yeah, there was there was no need for
34:11money really.
34:12>> Okay. Random side note, I'm shocked that
34:15you were allowed tampons.
34:17>> All right, really?
34:19>> Yeah, there are so many groups here.
34:21They've nicknamed them devil sticks.
34:23They think that they take your
34:24virginity. It's like a whole thing.
34:26>> Right. [laughter]
34:28>> Yeah. Gloriavale's I would say it's a
34:31little bit different from some groups
34:33and that some of the ways that they do
34:35things are really modern,
34:37but then other things are completely
34:39archaic. I think this is kind of come
34:41through from my grandfather. Like he was
34:44like really innovative. He was an
34:46engineer. He could He would He was
34:48always thinking of how to improve things
34:50and build things. And he was very
34:52practical, too. And so I think to a
34:55degree there's almost this like
34:57disparity there with these like these
34:59complete polar opposites of like well,
35:02they're very modern and innovative, but
35:04also very very outdated as well.
35:07>> Yeah. What if somebody needed more
35:10extreme medical care, surgery, or
35:12outpatient? Was that allowed?
35:13>> It's a Yeah, it was allowed, but it
35:16would take a long time for you to get to
35:18hospital. So in emergencies, it's like
35:21it wasn't the best situation over there
35:23just cuz they're so far away. I think
35:25the closest town would be about
35:28an hour and a half drive. So for
35:30example, um my auntie, when she was
35:33having a baby, one of her babies,
35:36really struggled, was having problems.
35:38So I remember we got in the back of a
35:41work van with a dirty old mattress in
35:44the back of there and a sheet, and she
35:47was giving birth while we were driving
35:50to the closest town to try and get her
35:52medical help. And then she just had to
35:56like it it ended up happening and she
35:58just had to I held her hand and she had
36:00her baby on the side of the road on the
36:03west coast in the back of a van on a
36:04mattress.
36:05>> Oh my god.
36:06>> So
36:07like yes, we are we're allowed to access
36:09medical care in severe situations, but
36:12for normal situations, like the
36:15day-to-day stuff, it's really looked
36:17down on if you're sick. And if there's
36:19like like there's something wrong with
36:21you, like you're being a or you're
36:23just being a hypochondriac. So like the
36:26medical care was incredibly poor. Like I
36:29know people who've lost all of their
36:31teeth. Um for in Gloriavale and weren't
36:34you know they're not going to get those
36:36teeth back now like because the medical
36:38care was just so bad.
36:40>> You had mentioned in previous interviews
36:42birth control was not allowed. So I'm
36:45assuming people did have a lot of
36:47children. Did you have access to any
36:50sort of prenatal care or certified
36:52midwives or was it just kind of let's
36:54just hope for the best unless there's an
36:55emergency?
36:56>> Yeah, so on the West Coast because it's
36:59very very rural
37:01there are traveling midwives and they
37:03service all the farmers and all the
37:05people who live on the West Coast not
37:07just Gloriavale but they would do
37:09because there's constant childbirth in
37:11Gloriavale. Like I'm one of 10
37:14children
37:16same mother and father and most of my
37:19cousins families of 10 13 12 all big big
37:24big families.
37:25>> Ooh.
37:26>> Yeah, it was like they used to say that
37:28quote happy is the man that hath his
37:30quiverful.
37:32>> Mhm.
37:32>> Um which basically mean you should have
37:35a lots and lots of children. So my
37:37grandfather had um 16 children and three
37:41wives. There were traveling midwives who
37:43would come around because there was
37:44always pregnant women constant [snorts]
37:46like my I've just feel like most of my
37:48life my mother was pregnant and then I
37:50became a caregiver at a very very young
37:52age because you've got all these kids.
37:55Two parents is not enough to look after
37:57them. And also my father traveled for
38:01work a lot and my mom was in this
38:03leadership position.
38:04>> Mhm.
38:05>> So the midwives would come around they
38:07would do their checks and then
38:08Gloriavale also got some
38:10women that they certified to become
38:12midwives so they could have their own
38:14midwives on site. And we did it was all
38:17home births. So I think I watched my
38:20first baby be born at 10 years old. The
38:23baby was born with a
38:25the umbilical cord wrapped around its
38:27neck, black and blue. I do feel like
38:30that has to a degree almost traumatized
38:32me when it comes to child birth, but
38:34also like it was this is how we were
38:37taught about child birth. It was very
38:40natural and we were strong and our
38:43bodies could take it.
38:45To the degree that they would not even
38:47let women I like I know I've got friends
38:49who have left. They would not even let
38:51women who it was dangerous and having
38:53another child would kill them go on
38:55birth control. That's how strong the
38:58belief is. So I've had friends and who I
39:01grew up with leave
39:03the cult because they were like, "Well,
39:06this is going to kill me." So you when
39:09you're having to choose between your
39:11life and
39:13the rules of the society you live in,
39:16you're going to choose your life.
39:18So
39:20yeah, it was very like
39:22like I say archaic in that way.
39:24>> What's so frustrating is that they have
39:27so many seeds of goodness as far as
39:31being a community and taking care of
39:33each other and
39:35in some ways just being one big family
39:37and I'm not even against home birth when
39:39it's a low risk pregnancy, but the thing
39:42is they take away choice. So you don't
39:44have the option of going to the hospital
39:47if you just want to be in a hospital
39:49setting. You're just told that this is
39:51how it's going to be and deal with it.
39:54And so it really perverts something that
39:56can be so beautiful because I'm sure
39:58a lot of women did have beautiful
40:00experiences with their home births, but
40:02then also what about the women who are
40:04having these extremely traumatic
40:06experiences and maybe the baby doesn't
40:07make it or the mother doesn't make it
40:09because there was no care on is this a
40:12high-risk pregnancy? Should we have her
40:14in a room full of doctors and maybe
40:15surgeons if it comes to that. I mean,
40:18what about the case of an emergency
40:20C-section? Did that ever happen that you
40:22noticed?
40:23>> I believe there were some Yeah, there
40:25were some emergency C-sections. So, um
40:29I know that some of my cousins had to
40:31have C-sections, and in those cases they
40:34would allow them to go into hospital and
40:36have them because ultimately they don't
40:38want their women to die.
40:39>> Yeah.
40:40>> They want the birth to go well. Um so,
40:43they do allow access to modern medical
40:46care for circumstances like that. But,
40:49it's this
40:50idea of that
40:52even if it's not good for you and even
40:54if the doctors are saying to you
40:56"It's going to kill you. Don't have
40:57another baby." Well, God wants you to
41:00have another baby. So, if
41:02you shouldn't, then God won't give you
41:04one.
41:05So, it's God's choice over your life.
41:08And I think that's a really
41:10interesting point because
41:12when you're so like
41:15in this environment that encourages you
41:16to just submit your will to God, and if
41:20you don't, then you're just being
41:21stubborn and rebellious, and you know,
41:24it's makes creates this environment
41:26where people think, "If I'm not giving
41:29up what I want, if I'm not doing things
41:31against my will, then I'm not a good
41:33Christian."
41:33>> Mhm.
41:34>> So, doing things against your will is so
41:37highly encouraged
41:39that it makes everybody like fit into
41:42these roles and these beliefs and these
41:45systems that they don't actually agree
41:47with because they believe that they'll
41:50lose their salvation otherwise.
41:52>> Yeah.
41:52>> And as Christians, their salvation's the
41:54most important thing in the world.
41:57So, the driver is so high. Like, when
42:00you believe in heaven or hell,
42:03and you think, "Well, I'm going to go to
42:04hell if I don't do as I'm told."
42:07That just allows the leaders and of the
42:09church to have absolute complete control
42:12over what you should do.
42:14>> Exactly. The stakes are too high to even
42:17consider pushing back.
42:18>> Yeah.
42:19>> And what would you do anyway? You can't
42:22just get up and leave in most cases,
42:24especially if you're born there and if
42:25everyone around you, including your
42:27parents, is saying this is the way, you
42:29don't have any other options. I want to
42:31talk about education a little bit and
42:34with hindsight, if you feel you did get
42:37a good education.
42:38>> That's a really interesting question. I
42:41feel like I got a basic education. In
42:44Gloriavale,
42:46women are not encouraged
42:48to pursue higher education because
42:50you're always going to end up in a role
42:52where you're a mother at home and a wife
42:56who's looking after her husband, working
42:58in the sewing room and washing clothing
43:01on a board in the laundry. So, why would
43:05you need a higher education if that's
43:07going to be your life?
43:10>> [snorts]
43:11>> So, there were women in Gloriavale who I
43:13know were like incredibly ambitious and
43:15wanted to do additional education
43:18and we used to talk about this in high
43:20school like, oh, should we should we do
43:22extra education? But, I just didn't even
43:24feel like it was like an option for me
43:26at all.
43:27So, there's no pathways for women in
43:30situations like that to have a career
43:33because their
43:35role in life and what their life will
43:38look like is already predetermined.
43:41So, when your role is predetermined, why
43:44would you ever try to dream or think of
43:47how you could do things differently? And
43:50also, how could you do things
43:52differently? You don't have your own
43:54money, so you can't go to college. You
43:57don't even know what college is or that
43:59college is even an option. You have no
44:02vehicle to get to college even if you
44:05could go to college. you have no
44:07internet access to
44:09educate yourself about these options, so
44:12it's not an option at all.
44:15And like Gloriavale say, "Well, if
44:16people wanted to, they could leave and
44:18they could they could go to college.
44:20That's their choice."
44:21It's not your choice when you have no
44:24options and you have no power to make
44:26any of that happen for yourself. You are
44:29simply in a circumstance at that point.
44:32So, that's like my thoughts around
44:35education cuz they let the men get
44:37education to become like a vet or to
44:40become like an engineer or the trades
44:42that they needed and felt like they
44:44needed for the business. But you weren't
44:47allowed to do any education unless it
44:48was clearly needed in the community as a
44:51role to help the community grow.
44:53>> Mhm.
44:53>> And that's how it was approached.
44:56>> It was so interesting to see that clip
44:59of you 10 years, well, at 16 and then 10
45:03years later after leaving. So, what are
45:06the chances that they would allow this
45:08journalism team to come in and you were
45:10kind of the focus point of this story
45:14and then now you're speaking out against
45:16it later and watching the two
45:19side-by-side was so interesting and one
45:21of the questions that the journalists
45:22asked you is you don't have any
45:24aspirations to become a vet or I think
45:26it was a doctor or something and you
45:27guys were just like, "What do you mean?
45:30>> [laughter]
45:30>> That's Is that an option?"
45:31>> Yeah.
45:32Yeah, it's totally not. And I also
45:35remember that particular interview. Like
45:38we were taken by this same leader who
45:41punished his son in front of the high
45:44school that I like very violently. He
45:47took us in to a room and basically told
45:49us, "This is what you have to say. This
45:50is how you have to behave. Have you know
45:53Have you Do you know how you're saying
45:55things?"
45:55>> Wow.
45:56>> Everything is just drilled into you that
45:59this is how you say and do things. And
46:01you think like you think that you're
46:03wanting to do it as well. You think that
46:06it's you're choosing this. But really,
46:10when you're a child in that environment,
46:12you're just being completely brainwashed
46:14because you're not being told, "If you
46:16don't want to do this, it's okay." Like
46:19you're being told, "This is the best
46:20thing you can possibly do. Your family's
46:22so proud of you." You know, all these
46:25like
46:26things that as a child you're like, "Oh,
46:27this this sounds amazing."
46:29>> Mhm.
46:30>> So you just do what you're told really
46:32in those situations. But yeah, so much
46:34of that
46:35the voice that we had was just not ours.
46:40>> Yeah.
46:40>> And I think after leaving Gloriavale, it
46:43was really about going, "Well, my voice
46:45is mine now. So instead of using it as
46:49I've had to in the past for others,
46:52it's about using my voice for myself and
46:55for what I truly believe, not about what
46:59I'm being told to say or what society
47:01wants me to say."
47:02>> It seemed like you were a member who
47:05truly wanted to follow the rules and be
47:08a good member of the community,
47:10especially because you had all eyes on
47:12you if your grandfather is the leader or
47:14considered this prophet of sorts.
47:17And there is a moment where it seems
47:19like it was pivotal for you when he did
47:22publicly shame you and it was out of
47:24nowhere because it seemed like something
47:26he should have been congratulating you
47:27for.
47:28And you were it was the opposite. You
47:30were completely shamed. So could you
47:32talk about what happened and how that
47:34made you feel?
47:35>> Yeah, absolutely. So I was very much the
47:37good girl growing up and I'm not the
47:39good girl now.
47:41>> [laughter]
47:41>> But growing up, I was the good girl and
47:44um my siblings were the black sheep. So
47:47I really was like raised with all this
47:49language in around, "Well, don't be
47:52don't make your parents ashamed of you
47:55and um make sure that you don't end up
47:58like those people or those kids. And so,
48:02I was always like trying to please and
48:05also pleasing
48:07as a means to survive. So, if I don't
48:11please my parent in this instant, I know
48:14I'm going to get hurt. Like I'm going to
48:17get stripped and belted. I'm going to
48:19get like the experience some type of
48:22physical pain. So, my method to survive
48:25this was simply to try and do everything
48:27perfect and never do anything
48:30wrong. And so, I created this like
48:32perfectionism
48:34um disorder in me, where I was wanting
48:36to do everything right and be the
48:38perfect Christian girl in Gloriavale.
48:41What happened is this was completely out
48:44of alignment with my natural personality
48:47and who I truly am as a person.
48:50So,
48:51when I was
48:52in oh gosh, I think this is like the
48:55second year of school at this point. Um
48:58I'm just fresh into school and we had
49:01this lovely old um woman who was our
49:04teacher and she wrote me a beautiful
49:07report because school reports, they got
49:09read out at the table, dinner table in
49:12front of everybody. So, they were like
49:14the most important thing that you had to
49:16get it right. Otherwise, you were
49:18stuffed. So, she wrote this beautiful
49:20report that said, "Lilia demonstrates
49:23leadership skills which could be useful
49:25as she gets older."
49:27Nothing wrong with that sentence.
49:29But apparently,
49:31my grandfather, male chauvinist cult
49:34leader, thought,
49:36"This
49:37little girl is a threat to my regime.
49:40So, I'm going to take this
49:42report and I'm going to read it out at
49:45the dinner table in front of everyone."
49:47And at first when he started reading it,
49:49cuz he has a stack of reports that he
49:50was going through and he started
49:52reading, and then thinking, "This is
49:54awesome.
49:55I got a really good report. I got A's.
49:57Like, this is going to be great." Next
50:00thing I hear is him saying,
50:02"We don't want women like you."
50:04This is And he just berated me for
50:07hours. Like, not even just like a single
50:10comment, either. This is like, "We are
50:12going to make an example of you for
50:15something that you were good at,
50:17leadership, and we are going to let
50:20every single other little girl and woman
50:23in this room know that this is not okay,
50:26and we don't accept this." And he just
50:29completely used me as an example to
50:31terrify every other woman in the room.
50:35And I just
50:36Like, I completely disassociated. I
50:39remember the time just passing by like
50:41it was a blink of an eye. And the only
50:43reason I knew it like an hour had passed
50:46was because I looked up at the little
50:47ticking clock on the wall, and I was
50:50like,
50:51"Has this been going that long?" Like, I
50:53just tears in my eyes. I just was like,
50:56"Don't understand what's happening here,
50:57but
50:58it must be me.
51:00There must be something wrong with me. I
51:03must have done something wrong."
51:05And then, as children, this is how we
51:07start to internalize all of the things
51:10that happened to us.
51:12And afterwards, after the meal, took our
51:14plates into the kitchen, scraping off
51:16the scraps into the scrap bin, and my
51:18auntie came up, and she actually said,
51:19"You're okay." Cuz she could obviously
51:22see this was impacting me, and I just
51:24said, "Oh, yes, he must be right. You
51:27know, I do just need to be quieter." Or
51:30I said something along the lines of just
51:32that I needed to make myself smaller to
51:34fit into
51:35what he thought a little girl should be.
51:39So, that was my experience, and a very
51:41core experience of, "Well, this is where
51:44women fit in this world, and this is
51:47what is okay, and you are not okay if
51:50you have anything that we don't agree
51:54with.
51:54>> What were your parents' reactions to
51:56that? Did they speak with you afterward?
51:58>> Not really. I mean, my mom might have
52:00had a conversation. The thing is that
52:03the children and the parents have no
52:06control over the situation. You're all
52:07in the same environment, and I'm not
52:10excusing my parents at all.
52:13It's more just that
52:15they have no When when you live in an
52:17environment like Lorne Vale, where you
52:19have absolutely no control over your
52:21life or choice, you also have no choice
52:24in how to raise your children.
52:26So,
52:27my I reme- I know that when my auntie
52:30was like very sick, and she's
52:32experienced chronic illnesses, and they
52:34used to the leaders used to come into
52:37her bedroom when she was in bed,
52:39and berate her and say she didn't have
52:42enough faith because she was sick. And
52:45in the same way, they come into your
52:47home
52:48and tell you how you have to be and act
52:51with your children, and how you have to
52:53raise your children. And then, if you're
52:55not doing it the way that they say,
52:58you run the risk of getting kicked out
53:01of the community
53:02with nothing but the clothes on your
53:04back, no money, and so you have to find
53:07a way to survive in this environment.
53:10And so,
53:11you're going to try to survive in
53:13whatever way that you can.
53:17And sometimes I believe that as parents,
53:19it was like, well, not how can we keep
53:22our children safe, but just how can we
53:24survive this entire situation?
53:26>> Mhm.
53:27>> It's so messed up. Like, even as I say
53:29it, and I think like, I'm just like,
53:31this is so messed up. How can How can we
53:34have lived like that? But, that was the
53:36reality. You
53:37didn't have a say in how you would raise
53:39your little kids.
53:40>> Well, not only that, but they are
53:42assigning you a spouse. That's a really
53:46big deal and I think that also impacted
53:49you in
53:50really understanding that you didn't
53:52want to be a part of that when you saw
53:54your friends getting married. Can we
53:56talk about that a little bit?
53:57>> Yeah, so I think it would be good to
53:59talk about like what marriage looks like
54:02in Gloriavale. So, marriage is touted as
54:04the end all be all for a woman. Your
54:07goal in life is to get married and be a
54:09wife and be a housewife. And
54:12similarly to everything in Gloriavale,
54:15it is
54:17taught to us in such a way that God
54:19tells the leaders
54:21who should be married and then they tell
54:25those people that God has told them and
54:27then those people are arranged to be
54:28married. They say it's not arranged, but
54:30it's totally arranged.
54:32They also have to arrange it for
54:34practical purposes because they refuse
54:36to intermarry with other churches
54:38because they're so isolated. So,
54:41unless the marriages are arranged, there
54:44will be issues with the bloodlines
54:46crossing.
54:47So, they would have a book of these are
54:49all the bloodlines and this is how we
54:51have to make sure that we don't marry
54:54into intermarry families and people who
54:56are actually related by blood.
54:58So, that's also part of a practical
55:00reason why marriages are arranged.
55:03So,
55:04what happened is
55:06we'd have these big wedding days. The
55:09couples would be told two weeks before
55:11the wedding who they would marry.
55:14You've known these people all your life.
55:16Um but you may
55:18like them, you might not be able to
55:21stand them, but you get told two weeks
55:24before this is you're getting married in
55:26two weeks.
55:28So,
55:29then we'd have this big wedding day.
55:32The two young people that are getting
55:33married and they they would marry young
55:37people from the age of 16, which is like
55:40what's legal in New Zealand. So with the
55:41consent of a parent, you can be married
55:44at 16.
55:45So some people were being married as
55:47young as 16. You have your first kiss in
55:50front of the entire
55:54community who are all seated in a big
55:56circle around you. You say your wedding
55:58vows and then you kiss for the first
55:59time.
56:00And it's graphic. And these kids have no
56:03idea what they're doing.
56:06As an adult looking back now, it's
56:08absolutely vile.
56:09But this is what we were shown to be
56:13normal. God loves a man who enjoys his
56:16woman's body and all that kind of just
56:19really overly sexualized environment.
56:22>> really getting into it, these kids.
56:24>> They're like really getting into it.
56:26There's hands everywhere and they're
56:28like literally the whole community is
56:31all around.
56:32>> Oh my gosh.
56:33>> the children are there, too. So this is
56:36how highly sexualized these wedding
56:38environments are.
56:39And then this couple go away. Like
56:41there's no real skin involved, but like
56:44it's happening.
56:45So these couples go away that afternoon.
56:48They get taken over to a house
56:52where they have to consummate their
56:53marriage for the first time.
56:55And they cannot come back to
56:59the community and for their marriage
57:02feast until that has happened.
57:05So they consummate their marriage and
57:07everyone knows that this is what's
57:09happening.
57:10And then after the deed is done, they
57:13come back and then
57:16we all have a big marriage feast. And
57:18during this whole time these, you know,
57:20these couples are very blissed out. But
57:24it's just like we've all known what's
57:26happened and you grow up thinking that
57:27this is normal.
57:29>> [snorts]
57:29>> And they're just like horny little
57:31teenagers who are graphically displaying
57:34everything and thinking that this is
57:36normal
57:37in an like an environment where this is
57:39completely normalized. So, let's just
57:42think about how that impacts children
57:44and what they think is okay and not
57:46okay.
57:47>> Yeah.
57:47>> So, when I'm just remember walking
57:50through the kitchen and I would see like
57:53men with their hands on places I don't
57:55even want to think about. Like just in
57:57the kitchen publicly doing this kind of
57:59thing. And so, that creates this
58:01completely overly sexualized
58:03environment, which is why there's been
58:05so much sexual abuse happen in
58:07Gloriavale. And was very
58:10for me growing up like the vicarious
58:12trauma of that was really really hard.
58:16So,
58:17I know I've gone off track a little bit
58:19like where you asked about marriage and
58:21I'm talking about
58:22abuse, but it just feels really
58:24relevant.
58:25>> is. And what an interesting combination.
58:28This is the first time that I've heard
58:31an environment where purity culture is
58:33so extreme, but also public displays of
58:36affection are encouraged and normalized
58:38usually don't go together. And so, I can
58:42see how even more so it creates this
58:45paradise for predators to do whatever
58:48they want.
58:50>> 100% absolutely.
58:52And so, your kind of whole idea of
58:55marriage is very warped and
58:58relationships is very warped as well.
59:00When I say warped, I mean warped
59:01compared to what I believe now, but at
59:04in that environment, it's normal.
59:07And so, this is your fate as a woman and
59:10a girl growing up in Gloriavale. And you
59:13kind of just accept that because there's
59:14no choices and options for you as we've
59:16discussed.
59:17So,
59:18what happened is um a lot of some of my
59:21friends were in my family, my cousins
59:24were being made to marry these guys that
59:26they just couldn't stand
59:28and
59:29just they had to accept it. And even
59:32their parents didn't want it to happen,
59:33but they had to accept it because they
59:36had no choice otherwise.
59:38The other The choice was to be
59:39completely kicked out of the community,
59:41lose their livelihood, and
59:43try have to survive in a world that they
59:45know nothing about.
59:47So, it's really just survival
59:49to stay and do as you're told.
59:52And then my floral veil started this
59:55outreach to India where they were like,
59:57"This is our charitable outreach. We're
59:59going to bring in people from India, the
1:00:01underprivileged, and we're going to
1:00:03build a community in India to help the
1:00:06poor and provide schooling." So, it all
1:00:08sounds really great on paper, and it's
1:00:10also a great place to put money that you
1:00:12don't want to pay tax on.
1:00:14My best friend
1:00:15was told that she had to marry this
1:00:18guy from India. He didn't want to marry
1:00:20her, she didn't want to marry him, but
1:00:22she was distraught over the fact that
1:00:25this was what her life was going to be,
1:00:27and she had no say in it.
1:00:29And I remember this pivotal moment where
1:00:32she came and told me this was happening,
1:00:33and I love this girl. So, I'm like
1:00:37"Then you have to leave. Like, there's
1:00:39no choice. You have to get out.
1:00:43You either marry him or you run away."
1:00:46And so, she packed her bags, somehow
1:00:49contacted someone on the outside to come
1:00:51get her. She got found out, she got
1:00:53dragged through the leaders meeting, but
1:00:54ultimately she stayed her course, and
1:00:56she still left. And that was a moment
1:00:59where I was like
1:01:01"If I'm telling her that she's allowed
1:01:03to leave
1:01:05I'm allowed to leave, too. Because why
1:01:07should I have to be put in these
1:01:09situations, and I've got all these
1:01:11little sisters. Why should I don't want
1:01:14this for them, either." So, that was a
1:01:17real moment for me when I was like,
1:01:18"I've got to get I I to get out. I can't
1:01:21do this.
1:01:23>> What's also unique about your story is
1:01:25your whole family was feeling the same
1:01:27way, including your parents, which is
1:01:29very rare. Let's talk about how they
1:01:32came to that decision of we're just
1:01:34going to take the whole family.
1:01:35>> Yeah, so that was really rare. Like over
1:01:38the years as people left Gloriavale, it
1:01:41would just be one person here or there,
1:01:43like a solitary um
1:01:45black sheep who just left Gloriavale.
1:01:48And this was the first time in many,
1:01:49many years that a whole family had left.
1:01:52So my father was actually one of the
1:01:53shepherds, and my mother, as I said, was
1:01:55the housemother. And I think this has
1:01:57gone a long way to like actually
1:01:59allowing other families to leave
1:02:01Gloriavale. Because there's been a
1:02:02massive exodus of families from
1:02:04Gloriavale since that point. And I
1:02:06thought, gosh, I think it was about 15
1:02:08years ago at this point. What happened
1:02:10is my siblings ran away from home very
1:02:12young. So I had two older siblings, and
1:02:14they both ran away when they were 15
1:02:16because they just couldn't do it. There
1:02:19was a horrible environment for them. My
1:02:22parents wanted to look after their
1:02:24children. They wanted to support their
1:02:26children who were essentially living on
1:02:28the streets. But Gloriavale was saying,
1:02:30you can't.
1:02:32So the way they pitched it to Gloriavale
1:02:34was, well, we believe if we support our
1:02:36children, then they might come back to
1:02:38Gloriavale.
1:02:39And that went down quite well since they
1:02:41both were in positions of authority. And
1:02:45um we got permission to live in this
1:02:47like halfway house where we were living
1:02:51in Gloriavale schooling every single
1:02:52day, but at night we would go home and
1:02:55live with our siblings who were worldly
1:02:59and dressed in jeans and all the naughty
1:03:01things, pierced ears,
1:03:03who were and we would live with them in
1:03:05the evenings. And then we would go back
1:03:07to Gloriavale during the day. So there
1:03:09was this the start of this transitional
1:03:11phase.
1:03:12And
1:03:13as time passed, it ended up that we
1:03:16became more and more
1:03:18in love with our independence and
1:03:21my family was like
1:03:24having the right flight we were able to
1:03:25get a bit of money to spend on our own
1:03:28and just you know being able to have one
1:03:30room that I could only share with one of
1:03:32my sisters was like insane and amazing
1:03:34to me and so we started having these
1:03:36freedoms and because we were in a town
1:03:39where there were there was normal
1:03:41society there so where I was exposed to
1:03:44like what this music sounded like and
1:03:47what it would look like to wear other
1:03:48clothes and so I started to experiment
1:03:50with these things and my parents were
1:03:53um not as strict about all of that. It
1:03:55was still a transitional time but that's
1:03:58kind of what eventually happened and
1:04:00then
1:04:01it was reaching the point where the
1:04:03leaders were saying this has gone on for
1:04:05too long you choose your family or you
1:04:07choose the church and that's it. We'd
1:04:09just got in our family back together and
1:04:13I remember though I really struggled
1:04:15with
1:04:16making the decision to leave because
1:04:19in Gloriavale there's this thing that
1:04:20they get everyone to sign it's a legally
1:04:23binding document called the commitment
1:04:25and basically you sign over all of your
1:04:28assets and belongings in your life to
1:04:30Gloriavale and to the leaders and um I
1:04:33made that commitment on national
1:04:35television when I was 17 years old. I'd
1:04:37made this commitment I said to my mom if
1:04:40you leave I can't come with you cuz I
1:04:43didn't feel like I could
1:04:45and then over the course of a year as
1:04:47more and more things happened I was like
1:04:49no I think that I think I can leave I
1:04:52think it's not a sin to wear pants and
1:04:55slowly my beliefs were transitioning and
1:04:57changing and I was changing
1:04:59and eventually my parents said well
1:05:02we're going to leave we want to do it in
1:05:05a respectful way let's try and go and
1:05:07ask the leaders for permission which so
1:05:09my father like I remember the day that
1:05:12we left and I write about this in my
1:05:14book in detail.
1:05:16We
1:05:17were at the Sunday dinner all together
1:05:20with the community and then I went and
1:05:21took all the kids and put them
1:05:24in their beds in our shared family room.
1:05:26At that point, my mom was still over at
1:05:28the house that we were sharing. I waited
1:05:31and I waited and waited and was like,
1:05:33"Where is he? Why Why hasn't he come out
1:05:35of this meeting?" You know, I was
1:05:37getting really like stressed about it.
1:05:40And then
1:05:41I walked out the brick like across the
1:05:43bridge to find him from the main
1:05:46house and he was walking back to me and
1:05:48he was crying. And I I've never seen my
1:05:51dad cry in my life. So, I was like the
1:05:54world is ending.
1:05:56And he was like,
1:05:57"You put all the kids in the car.
1:06:00We're going right now." So, it everyone
1:06:03was sleeping at this point because we
1:06:05had a Sunday downtime. So, we packed all
1:06:08the kids in the car, raced over to where
1:06:11my mother was packing at the other house
1:06:13and
1:06:14the halfway house where we'd been
1:06:15living. And we basically bundled all
1:06:18into the car and then drove all the way
1:06:20from the West Coast to the East Coast to
1:06:23start our new life.
1:06:25It was
1:06:26that's just crazy.
1:06:28>> Wow. Did you guys know what you were
1:06:30going to do when you got there? Did you
1:06:31have a plan?
1:06:32>> I don't necessarily I think that my
1:06:34parents had some
1:06:36contacts on the outside, but we just
1:06:38went to a place from our outside church
1:06:41and there was a house that we could have
1:06:43for a few days. It was really about like
1:06:45how do we transition and we had to rely
1:06:49on help and support from other people.
1:06:51So, we lived in like free housing for a
1:06:54lot of like the start of our life out
1:06:56here. Um it was just whatever people
1:06:59could give us for free because we had
1:07:01nothing. Let's talk about that
1:07:03transition period where you were fully
1:07:06out, not even going to the compound at
1:07:08all, and starting to figure out who you
1:07:11are. I know that there was a moment
1:07:13where
1:07:14you had this sort of breakdown when you
1:07:16realized, do I even believe in all these
1:07:19things, or was I just lied to my whole
1:07:21life, and what is true and what is not,
1:07:23and who am I? So, if you can explain
1:07:25what that was like.
1:07:27>> Yeah, so I we started going to another
1:07:29church out here, which was um
1:07:32it was a nice way to
1:07:34not be so shocked, because honestly, the
1:07:37whole thing was just a complete shock to
1:07:39the system. You just go into
1:07:41[clears throat] a state of shock. To a
1:07:42degree, it's really exciting as well.
1:07:44Like, you have a brand new life ahead of
1:07:45you, there's all these options. I was
1:07:47like,
1:07:48"Oh my gosh, I could be a teacher if I
1:07:49wanted to. What do I want to do with my
1:07:51life?" And um
1:07:54we started going to churches, and I made
1:07:56lots of friends in these churches, which
1:07:58was really great, and I was talking to
1:07:59people that I'd been raised in
1:08:01Gloriavale, and we were taught everyone
1:08:03outside of Gloriavale is the enemy.
1:08:06They're like, "Only in Gloriavale, which
1:08:09is the one true church, Church of God,
1:08:11>> Mhm.
1:08:12>> and the then the world outside is just
1:08:14completely demonized." So, I was like,
1:08:16"Oh my There's actually nice people out
1:08:18here. I'm actually making friends as a
1:08:20teenager." And I was enjoying going to
1:08:22church, and it kind of got to the point
1:08:25where like,
1:08:26I wanted to have more experiences, you
1:08:29know, I wanted to try alcohol for the
1:08:31first time, and I wanted to figure out
1:08:34what was wanted in life, because I felt
1:08:36like I'd always just been what I had
1:08:39been told to be.
1:08:40And I'd lived in a way to survive my
1:08:42environment, but never had these
1:08:45choices.
1:08:47So,
1:08:48I decided that I wanted to have sex, and
1:08:51this is really when I
1:08:52decided to leave the church. I wanted to
1:08:55have sex, I wanted to experience what
1:08:56that was like, but it was seen as
1:08:58fornication, evil, and wicked. Like,
1:09:00you're ruining your body, no man will
1:09:02ever want you. And I had sort of
1:09:05off those beliefs and I was like, no,
1:09:07this is something I'm going to do for
1:09:08myself.
1:09:10And sexual empowerment was actually
1:09:13the reason, I believe, that I was able
1:09:15to leave the church. It was like the
1:09:16last straw for me, cuz I was like, no,
1:09:18I'm not buying into this again.
1:09:20>> Well, that's how it is for women, right?
1:09:22When your entire worth is put upon your
1:09:24virginity, it really feels like uh no
1:09:27going back moment, even though the
1:09:29concept of virginity I just loathe in
1:09:31its entirety now. But back then it was
1:09:34like, there is no going back from losing
1:09:37your virginity and it feels like
1:09:40that's that's the moment of, okay, I'm
1:09:43making this decision.
1:09:45>> Yeah, like you burn all your bridges,
1:09:46right?
1:09:47>> Yeah.
1:09:47>> Like I felt like I couldn't go back from
1:09:49this decision, but I made that decision
1:09:51and it felt so empowering, so right for
1:09:54me and I was just so happy that I had
1:09:56this and it told me I had choice over my
1:09:59body cuz I could do these things. At the
1:10:01time, my parents were still Christian, I
1:10:02discussed none of this with them, so I
1:10:04don't know anything about safety or any
1:10:06of those normal sex ed things that you
1:10:08should absolutely just know as a
1:10:10teenager.
1:10:12But so I made this choice for myself and
1:10:14after that, that was really my
1:10:15permission to leave the church and start
1:10:17to find myself.
1:10:19And it was
1:10:20Glory of Our has been in the news a lot
1:10:22over here. It's constantly on TV and not
1:10:26for good reasons, either. It's very
1:10:28triggering as an ex-leaver to constantly
1:10:30see that and to feel like you have to
1:10:33rehash your life every time that
1:10:35happens. And so I started journaling and
1:10:37writing and trying to understand what
1:10:40had happened to me and what was a very
1:10:43dark journal on my laptop kind of turned
1:10:47into a memoir
1:10:48because I wanted to take all of this
1:10:51darkness out of my body cuz I I was
1:10:54carrying so much trauma, so much
1:10:57heaviness, so many horrific memories
1:11:00that I didn't want, and didn't ask for,
1:11:02and didn't deserve. So, I started
1:11:05writing to really pull that out of my
1:11:08body and heal myself. I And I wanted to
1:11:11make a difference to everyone that was
1:11:15going through similar situations as
1:11:16well. I wanted to let them know that if
1:11:19I can leave a cult and have sex, you
1:11:22can, too, you know?
1:11:26It seems so simple, but for me it was so
1:11:28powerful.
1:11:29>> No, it is powerful. And that's what's so
1:11:31beautiful about it is when you leave a
1:11:33high-control group, simplicity is power,
1:11:36just because there's choice behind it.
1:11:39It doesn't have to be revolutionary. You
1:11:41don't have to have this big aha moment
1:11:43of, "Oh, I'm going to be a doctor." It
1:11:45can literally be,
1:11:46"I'm going to wear jeans today." And
1:11:48that is power because you chose it
1:11:51yourself.
1:11:52>> Yeah.
1:11:53It's those small little choices.
1:11:56Um so, writing my book was incredibly
1:11:59hard for me. Like, I went through box
1:12:00after box of tissues. Just It was
1:12:04cathartic, but in a great way, but in a
1:12:07horrible way, too. But, it's the best
1:12:10thing I have ever done for myself
1:12:12because it allowed me to heal and
1:12:15unlocked parts of myself to heal that
1:12:18not writing or sharing my story wouldn't
1:12:21would have allowed me to do. So, I This
1:12:24is why we break silence because it lets
1:12:27us heal our own stories.
1:12:29And I'm getting emotional. This is why I
1:12:33love the work that I've chosen to do
1:12:35today
1:12:37because I help people tell their stories
1:12:39in books, on stages, to build their
1:12:42personal brands
1:12:43because our stories heal us, and they
1:12:46not only heal us, they heal the world.
1:12:48And I'm a big believer that stories
1:12:51don't heal in the dark. Like we
1:12:54when we
1:12:55bring the light in and can shine that
1:12:57light on those parts of ourselves that
1:12:59hurt so much and those the inner child
1:13:03in us that has been so
1:13:05like abused, that's really to me how
1:13:09healing begins. And I'm not saying
1:13:11everyone has to tell their story on the
1:13:13TED Talk stage like I have or write this
1:13:16story into a memoir like I have. I'm
1:13:18just saying
1:13:20that that's where healing truly happens,
1:13:22I believe, although everyone's journey
1:13:24is completely different.
1:13:26>> Right. Through my research, especially
1:13:28since people started mentioning
1:13:30Gloriavale or wanting us to cover it, I
1:13:32kept trying to find survivors who have
1:13:34spoken out and it seemed like you you're
1:13:37pretty much the face of the group after
1:13:40leaving and I'm sure that that has a lot
1:13:43of pros and cons, but what has it been
1:13:44like
1:13:45being in the spotlight for I think you
1:13:48said you wrote the book 8 years ago.
1:13:50What has that transition been for you?
1:13:52Have you had any backlash from the group
1:13:54or basically just pros and cons of that?
1:13:57>> Yeah, so interestingly enough, I feel
1:14:00like I've had a lot of backlash. Like
1:14:02I've had death threats and I think a lot
1:14:05of people just don't want It's so
1:14:07interesting, right? Because I'm an
1:14:09expert on my own story and no one can
1:14:10tell your story, it belongs to you. But
1:14:13it was a lot of um
1:14:16religious extremists
1:14:18that I got the backlash from when I
1:14:20shared my story because I was
1:14:22particularly talking about religion and
1:14:25they didn't like the fact that I was
1:14:26choosing to not wear a head covering or
1:14:29that I was choosing to like live my life
1:14:31on my own terms.
1:14:33It was
1:14:34hard, but it was also amazing cuz I in
1:14:37turn had this incredible audience of
1:14:39readers from around the world from like
1:14:42young kids sending me pictures holding
1:14:44up my book and smiling and being like,
1:14:46"Oh my god, I found your book in the
1:14:47library." to like people who were like,
1:14:49"I'm 60 years old and I absolutely loved
1:14:53your story and I feel like I have a new
1:14:54lease on life." to people who like a man
1:14:58who was still in um
1:15:00in a highly controlling religious
1:15:02environment who's like, "I well, I read
1:15:04your story and now I feel like I've got
1:15:06to treat my wife differently."
1:15:07>> Wow.
1:15:08>> So, I had this amazing support and these
1:15:10amazing
1:15:12testimonials from readers. And then in
1:15:14the same time I just had the people who
1:15:16were just Right, I literally have a
1:15:18folder on my emails called hate mail.
1:15:20And I don't open it, I don't read it.
1:15:22But at the time that was incredibly
1:15:24difficult for me.
1:15:25Which is why it was so important that I
1:15:27had support. And I did have support
1:15:29through that. Um
1:15:31I had
1:15:34a speaker coach and his wife who were
1:15:36who I'm very, very close with. They're
1:15:37very good friends of mine who were
1:15:38holding me through that process. I
1:15:41didn't have a lot of support from my
1:15:43family because it was hard for them. So,
1:15:45I felt like to some degree I was doing
1:15:48it alone. And that's completely
1:15:50understandable. Like it's a very
1:15:51personal story. Um my perception and my
1:15:55experience of us leaving is not their
1:15:57story, either. I'm only telling my story
1:16:00from my perspective. But it's still hard
1:16:02because
1:16:03they are I'm telling what they believe
1:16:05to be our story
1:16:08on, you know, national television and um
1:16:11international media, even here with you,
1:16:14right? So, I've really had to learn that
1:16:17my story belongs to me and that I have a
1:16:21right to speak and to share my story.
1:16:24>> Mhm.
1:16:25>> And my story belongs to no one else and
1:16:27no one can silence me. For a girl who
1:16:31has grown up being told women should sit
1:16:33down and be quiet and women are not to
1:16:35speak up, these were the beliefs that I
1:16:37was taught. To now, I'm absolutely none
1:16:41of those things.
1:16:42And I think that's the most empowering
1:16:44thing to have gone from this place where
1:16:47I'm turning my pain now into my power,
1:16:51and I think that that's just so
1:16:53empowering.
1:16:54>> Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of people are
1:16:56wondering how you were able to
1:16:59not flip your personality, but discover
1:17:01it because it takes so long to not only
1:17:05deconstruct the beliefs, but deconstruct
1:17:07the identity you've been given and
1:17:09figure out
1:17:10>> Yeah.
1:17:10>> actually are aside from all of that and
1:17:12that programming and conditioning. Was
1:17:15it time that just allowed you to do
1:17:17that? Was it exposure to the world? Was
1:17:19it writing your book? What would you say
1:17:21are the main things that really helped
1:17:22you become who you are today?
1:17:24>> Yeah, all of the above.
1:17:26It was a bit of everything. I've always
1:17:29been a really curious mind. I'm not
1:17:32afraid of asking the hard questions, and
1:17:34I'm not afraid of asking those questions
1:17:36of myself, either. I've been able to
1:17:39build such strong self-trust and faith
1:17:43in myself. Like I'm not a Christian
1:17:46today. I'm a I have left Christianity. I
1:17:49identify atheist, but I still believe
1:17:52that I am a woman of faith because I
1:17:54have such deep faith and trust in
1:17:57myself, and that has come with time and
1:17:59healing and me being willing to face my
1:18:01demons. It's hard though because that's
1:18:04not an easy thing to do. There's an
1:18:06incredible amount of pain that comes
1:18:08along with it. And so this is why I look
1:18:11at people who have shared their stories
1:18:14and are like doing amazing things in the
1:18:16world, and I'm like
1:18:17you're
1:18:18so incredible because it's not just what
1:18:21you're doing, it's the pain that you
1:18:23have endured to get to this point.
1:18:25>> Yeah.
1:18:26>> Like anything in life, anything
1:18:28incredible and life-changing, like just
1:18:30having a child, the pain that you have
1:18:33to go through to birth that child is
1:18:36incredible.
1:18:37And so, I truly believe it was my, I
1:18:41guess, bravery to face my pain and to
1:18:44hold it and to know that I'm strong
1:18:46enough to hold it. And don't get me
1:18:48wrong, there are days that I have not
1:18:49felt strong enough to hold it. And
1:18:52that's when I have just had to go,
1:18:53"Where are the systems and support that
1:18:55I need?" And I've gone through my
1:18:57journey with therapy, with getting
1:18:59coaching, with you know, getting people
1:19:02to hold me through that process when I
1:19:04feel like I can't hold myself and trying
1:19:07to make sure that I'm always connected.
1:19:10>> And it's definitely not a linear
1:19:11process, either. And I think people tend
1:19:13to think that it is, where they're like,
1:19:15"Okay, you leave the cult and then it's
1:19:17just all uphill from there." Which is
1:19:19not the case at all. Ups, downs,
1:19:22valleys, plateaus, like you name it,
1:19:24we've gone through it. I think we
1:19:26actually I think we're almost the exact
1:19:27same age, born in '90, right?
1:19:29>> Yeah, '90.
1:19:30>> Yeah, so I was born in '90 and I think
1:19:32we left our groups around the same time.
1:19:35And so, I'm curious because we have such
1:19:37a parallel journey in that way, because
1:19:40and because we have similar missions in
1:19:42life to help people tell their stories,
1:19:44what are some things that you found, if
1:19:47any, still come up for you? Maybe it's
1:19:49an internal internal belief about
1:19:51yourself or maybe it's
1:19:53uh exposure to something that might
1:19:55trigger a memory. Is there anything that
1:19:56you're still working through that comes
1:19:58up?
1:19:58>> There's a lot that triggers me
1:20:00[clears throat] today. A lot of like I
1:20:02find stuff around secret used to be
1:20:04incredibly triggering. I struggle
1:20:06sometimes with my mental health. And
1:20:08when I say struggle, I don't know if
1:20:10that's the right way to put it. I'm just
1:20:12thinking about how I can answer that
1:20:14question. For me, it's really been about
1:20:16integrating my experiences in my pain
1:20:19and my trauma into how I look after
1:20:21myself today. So, it's about going,
1:20:24"These things are real for me and
1:20:27they're not going to change. These are
1:20:29feelings that I have, these triggers
1:20:31that I have. they'll get less with time,
1:20:34but they're a part of who I am. My story
1:20:37is a part of who I am.
1:20:40And just looking at myself with absolute
1:20:43deep love and acceptance in spite of
1:20:47every single thing that I've been
1:20:48through and then every single challenge
1:20:51that I experience as a result of that.
1:20:53>> Mhm.
1:20:54>> And to just go to myself, you are loved
1:20:57and held by you first and foremost, even
1:21:00when the world doesn't hold you, even
1:21:02when your parents didn't make you feel
1:21:04safe, even when the family you grew up
1:21:06in was abusive, even when you were
1:21:09completely oppressed and you were you
1:21:12had no opportunities in front of you.
1:21:15You are still loved and completely
1:21:16accepted. And I believe that I've been
1:21:19able to really nurture that in myself
1:21:22and provide myself safety and protection
1:21:25in my life today that holds me and helps
1:21:29me to deal with everything that has
1:21:31happened to me, that has happened in my
1:21:33life. So, I hope that answers your
1:21:35question.
1:21:36>> It does and I feel very similarly.
1:21:39For me, the word that would encapsulate
1:21:41that would be worthiness because growing
1:21:44up in Mormonism, we had to constantly
1:21:46ask if we are worthy from the bishop. I
1:21:48did this thing and am I worthy of taking
1:21:50the sacrament? And I did this thing and
1:21:52am I worthy of saying a prayer in
1:21:53church, you know, and constantly having
1:21:55this cycle of repentance.
1:21:58And so, that's been the one thing for me
1:22:00that has carried as this inner voice
1:22:03that I find myself catching of course
1:22:06you're worthy, of course you're worthy
1:22:08and just constantly rewiring that in my
1:22:11brain because it's so difficult when
1:22:15you're a child zero to seven, your brain
1:22:17is wired based on the environment. It's
1:22:19wired based on how your caregiver speaks
1:22:22to you and those around you speak to
1:22:23you. So, you really have to consciously
1:22:26deprogram that in order for your outlook
1:22:30to change, for your perspectives to
1:22:32change. Otherwise, you may have left the
1:22:34cult, but you are still thinking with
1:22:36that same mentality that's holding you
1:22:38back and not allowing you to be the
1:22:40person who you were meant to be and who
1:22:41you want to be. And so, that's why I
1:22:44wanted to ask you that question of what
1:22:46it was that has helped you, if there's
1:22:47been any triggers, and what you're doing
1:22:50today is so amazing in helping other
1:22:52people tell their stories and own their
1:22:56stories and face their stories even,
1:22:58too.
1:22:59Is there anything else you want to share
1:23:01about that part of your journey, and
1:23:02then we'll talk about what brings you
1:23:04joy and peace?
1:23:05>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because I work in
1:23:08personal branding today, it's I just
1:23:12it's happened it's just this result of
1:23:14me going on a complete identity journey
1:23:16with myself. And understanding, like you
1:23:19say, my worthiness. And I was just
1:23:21talking about this on a call like the
1:23:23other day, where it's like, you know, I
1:23:25truly believe that, say, money is is a
1:23:28reflection of my internal beliefs about
1:23:30my own worthiness.
1:23:32And when you grow up in an environment
1:23:34like Lauri Bell, and you're literally
1:23:36taught the fundamental basis of the like
1:23:39religion is that you are a sinner and
1:23:41you are burnt born unworthy, and you
1:23:43need the blood of Christ to make you
1:23:45worthy, you're conditioned into this way
1:23:48of thinking that you aren't good enough.
1:23:51And that's been one of my probably the
1:23:53biggest thing for me has been to go,
1:23:56well, I'm going to drown this out
1:23:58completely with this belief that I am
1:24:01absolutely 100% worthy. And also
1:24:04surrounding myself with just people who
1:24:07affirm that to me and who believe that
1:24:09for me, as well.
1:24:10And I think that's why I love the
1:24:13storytelling and the personal branding,
1:24:15too, because of the healing aspect of
1:24:17it. So, I love working with people to
1:24:20heal their stories and find their
1:24:22stories and then write and share their
1:24:24stories, but they also make a decent
1:24:26living off their stories, too. So, for
1:24:30someone who had no money and left with
1:24:33nothing but the clothes on her back from
1:24:35Gloriavale to having run my first
1:24:38seven-figure business at 23 and now
1:24:41working with eight-figure clients, like
1:24:43that all feels so empowering to me
1:24:47because
1:24:48I've been able to show myself that this
1:24:51person or this way of living in
1:24:53Gloriavale isn't the only option for
1:24:56myself and that I do have skill and I do
1:24:59have power and I am worthy and I can
1:25:02build this for myself. And that's why I
1:25:05love helping people with their stories
1:25:07and their personal branding because it's
1:25:09not just
1:25:10just the money, it's the inner power,
1:25:13it's the ability for you to grow
1:25:15yourself as a person, but to heal
1:25:18everything that's going on for you as
1:25:19well.
1:25:20As you can see, I'm like crazy
1:25:22passionate about this.
1:25:24But yeah, it's it's amazing. I can't
1:25:26believe that I get to do this today.
1:25:28>> Yeah, and so amazing, too, that you have
1:25:31continued to be that beacon of light and
1:25:34hope for those who may be still in
1:25:36going, "Can I actually survive if I
1:25:38leave? Do I actually have options? Am I
1:25:40going to perish in hellfire like they
1:25:43told me? Or
1:25:45>> Yeah.
1:25:45>> there's Lilia out there and look how
1:25:47she's thriving and look how she's owned
1:25:49her story. And so, it's great that
1:25:51you've been willing to be in that
1:25:53spotlight so publicly, not only for
1:25:56people who are still in Gloriavale
1:25:58wanting to leave potentially, but like
1:26:00you said, people from all over the world
1:26:01who can relate. I mean,
1:26:04I feel like people who watch our
1:26:06channel, even if it's a a family cult or
1:26:09a narcissistic parent, people are going,
1:26:11"Oh, yeah, this sounds just like my
1:26:13childhood, but different setting." And
1:26:16it's just so helpful to see how people
1:26:19have broken out of these high control
1:26:21situations and manipulations and found
1:26:23their voice and been successful because
1:26:27that's really what people need is the
1:26:29hope and and the ability to hope that
1:26:32they can do something similar.
1:26:33>> Yeah, totally. And then if we see
1:26:35someone who has been through a situation
1:26:39so similar to ours and who has made
1:26:41something of their life, well, I just
1:26:43know that I am going to get messages
1:26:45from people who have watched this
1:26:47podcast. They're going to write to me
1:26:48and say, "Hey, I heard your story on
1:26:51Cults to Consciousness." And that's like
1:26:53just amazing to me that I can sit here
1:26:56and literally just talk about my story,
1:26:58which is just my normal, and then it
1:27:01makes such a difference in the world and
1:27:04the world needs our stories because this
1:27:07is how we heal. We heal in connection
1:27:09with each other. We heal in community.
1:27:11We don't heal in isolation and that's
1:27:13one of the big problems with cults.
1:27:15They're
1:27:15They are so isolated and you know,
1:27:18that's what we're trying to change.
1:27:20>> Yeah.
1:27:20>> So, yeah, you're absolutely right.
1:27:22>> Yeah, so let's talk about that. Aside
1:27:24from your business, so what is it that
1:27:25brings you joy and peace, happiness, all
1:27:28the things?
1:27:28>> Oh, my family. I just love them. They're
1:27:31hectic. Don't get me wrong. There's so
1:27:34many of us, too.
1:27:35>> [laughter]
1:27:37>> There's just a lot of them. Like so,
1:27:40um cuz there's 10 of us and we all still
1:27:42live in Christchurch. Um and they've all
1:27:45got kids, too. The The younger ones
1:27:47don't obviously have kids yet, but a lot
1:27:50of them are married and lots of kids.
1:27:51So, when I say hectic, I'm talking like
1:27:53Christmas Day is probably going to be
1:27:55like about 40 to 50 people.
1:27:57>> Oh.
1:27:57>> Just my sort of immediate family with
1:27:59their kids. So, it's crazy. I love it
1:28:04and kind of hate it a little bit, too,
1:28:05when I need my space, but I love it.
1:28:08>> [laughter and gasps]
1:28:08>> And I love that like, you know, my
1:28:10family's journey has been really rough.
1:28:12It's taken a long time for us to heal. A
1:28:15lot like a lot of them didn't like want
1:28:17me to tell my story and write my book.
1:28:19And you know, I just had to say this is
1:28:21what I'm doing for myself. This is what
1:28:23I believe is right. But we've kind of
1:28:25come to this place now where everyone's
1:28:27matured enough and we're far enough away
1:28:30from the pain of Gloriavale and the
1:28:33challenge of that that we're able to
1:28:35have relationships. And they're not
1:28:38easy. Like family do not dynamics and
1:28:41relationships are never easy. But I'm
1:28:43just so grateful that
1:28:45of the fact that I don't have to be
1:28:47separated from my family, which I was
1:28:50for 8 years I didn't see my older
1:28:52siblings.
1:28:52>> Mhm.
1:28:53>> So now today I'm just like, oh, this is
1:28:56the best thing. So I just love them
1:28:58coming over, dropping their kids over to
1:29:00be looked after. They make a mess of the
1:29:01house though. And they're always eating
1:29:04my entire fridge, but I love it. I love
1:29:07providing for them and nurturing them
1:29:09and just really family is my absolute
1:29:12joy other than my business and my
1:29:14creativity and doing that.
1:29:16>> Yeah, that's amazing. And we didn't even
1:29:18get to and maybe if you're open to doing
1:29:21a live with us, I would love to talk
1:29:23about ways that you've been able to
1:29:24reclaim your indigenous roots that were
1:29:27stripped away from you.
1:29:28>> Yeah. Yeah, we didn't talk about that
1:29:31because and you know, in Gloriavale
1:29:33you're supposed to just be a template
1:29:35basically and then they fill that
1:29:38template up with what they want.
1:29:39>> Mhm.
1:29:40>> Um but yeah, for me I'd love to do a
1:29:43live with you. We Let's do it.
1:29:45>> Let's do it. Great. We'll figure out a
1:29:47time after we finish this up, but let's
1:29:50end with our Linda Listen moment.
1:29:52>> Linda Listen, you are capable of so much
1:29:55more than you currently believe right
1:29:56now and you are absolutely 100% worthy.
1:30:00>> Beautiful.
1:30:01I love it. That's perfect. Tell
1:30:03everybody where they can find you,
1:30:05social media, how they can support you,
1:30:07all the things.
1:30:07>> Yeah, great. So, um my podcast is Brand
1:30:10Breaker on Spotify currently, going to
1:30:13get it on Apple, but you can find me on
1:30:15all socials, basically Tik Tok,
1:30:17Facebook, Instagram. It's Lilia Tarawa,
1:30:20first name, last name, l i l i a t a r a
1:30:23w a. And if you want to read my memoir,
1:30:27it's Daughter of
1:30:28My Life in a Religious Cult, and you can
1:30:30just Google that and it will pop up
1:30:32online.
1:30:33>> Perfect. This has been so great talking
1:30:35with you, Lilia. Do you have any final
1:30:37thoughts before we go?
1:30:38>> No, I I loved chatting with you. It's
1:30:40super easy. I feel like we went like
1:30:43deep into it and into the story, which
1:30:46is great. It's been a while since I've
1:30:48really shared this much story on a
1:30:50platform, so thank you so much for
1:30:53creating the space for me to bring my
1:30:55story here and share it with your
1:30:57audience. It means the world to me.
1:30:59>> Yes, of course. It's an honor. As I
1:31:01mentioned before, we've been in contact
1:31:03for about a year and you were taking a
1:31:04break, so I do feel really special that
1:31:07you chose to come on and do another deep
1:31:09dive after taking a break. And yeah, I'm
1:31:12looking forward to that live as well.
1:31:14>> Awesome. Me, too.
1:31:16>> Okay, guys, if you're listening, thank
1:31:18you so much for making it to the end.
1:31:19Let us know if you did. Leave those
1:31:21words of encouragement down below for
1:31:22Lilia. It means so much to us, to our
1:31:24guests. It boosts the algorithm. It
1:31:27sends it to people who are not
1:31:28subscribed. If you're not subscribed
1:31:30already, please do so. It also helps our
1:31:32show and helps us do this as our
1:31:34full-time job. If you want to support
1:31:36even further, we have channel
1:31:37memberships where you can have specific
1:31:40perks like early video access or special
1:31:42live streams depending on the tier. And
1:31:44if that's not your thing and you want to
1:31:46do Patreon, you could do that, too,
1:31:47patreon.com/cultstoconsciousness.
1:31:50We have some merch at
1:31:51cultstoconsciousness.com.
1:31:53And if you like this video, I will link
1:31:55two more down here below. Maybe check
1:31:57out our Amish playlist or our 12 Tribes
1:31:59playlist. And from the moment of this
1:32:02recording and when you're watching this,
1:32:03I will have been trying to get more
1:32:05people on from Gloriavale to continue
1:32:07the story and share more of those
1:32:09perspectives. [music] So, thank you guys
1:32:11so much for watching and until next
1:32:12time, follow your highest excitement, be
1:32:14conscious, and be well.

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