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Darryl Cooper Iran Deep Dive: How the War Will Change America Forever, Nukes, Zionism, and Islam — Transcript

by Tucker Carlson · 22,558 words · 1,302 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:04Jared, thank you for doing this. I we must think of you every 2 weeks. We should call
0:09Jared Cooper. So, but we try to keep it to once a year cuz you live so far away and I'm just
0:12grateful you made this effort. And I just have to say not cuz it simply cuz it vindicates me,
0:17but just cuz it's such an amazing and wonderful fact that you actually are literally measurably
0:22America's most popular and important historian. That's just a fact. [laughter] Which is incredible
0:27and gives me hope. Because you do like 5-hour podcasts on you know, things that happened 100
0:34years ago in granular detail and you know, there are a million and a half people listening to that.
0:38It's like this country is not lost. So anyway, thank you so much. Always a pleasure. We were
0:44uh speaking at breakfast about how the Iran war started and you were putting it
0:50within the context of how Western nations, European nations fight wars historically and
0:58why this was different. Can you recap what you were just saying? Sure. I mean, I think that when
1:04you look back at the period of limited warfare in the 18th and uh first half of the 19th century,
1:13we see that was really one of the pinnacles of not just our civilization, but human civilization
1:19in general. You know, war is something that uh is sometimes necessary. Sometimes interest
1:24conflict and you have to fight over it. But to be able to arrive at a place where you can
1:29treat your enemy with respect even in defeat. Um is really an amazing accomplishment. And
1:37you start to see the breakdown of that over the course of the 20th century, of course. The First
1:41World War. Uh but even still there was a sense of you know, what's the what's the saying that um
1:48hypocrisy is the attribute that virtue pays to vice, right? Exactly. Um we still had to pretend.
1:55You know, we still had to come up with stories to tell ourselves so that we could go to sleep
1:59at night. We hadn't given up on those values completely. And what are the values? Fair play.
2:05Yes. Uh the idea that even somebody who uh you have to put bullets down range at is a human being
2:15uh and deserves to be treated as a as a creature of God. Um these are things that became very
2:20deeply embedded uh in our social consciousness and in and as individuals as well so that again,
2:26even as as as those values started to fade in practice, we still held on to them in our hearts.
2:33And I think a lot of people today or well, I was I should say maybe
2:39a few years back, just a few years ago, uh if you talked to your average uh American soldier
2:45in Iraq for example. Well, this is actually that's a perfect example. If you look at Iraq,
2:50I I I have a lot of anti-war libertarian type friends, you know, and they're very strident in
2:55their views sometimes of American militarism. And I always tell them like, look, when you compare
3:02there were incidents in the Iraq War, no doubt about it, in the
3:05Afghanistan War where soldiers got out of hand. But when you compare their behavior, the level of
3:11discipline and honor that they displayed in those wars relative to any previous conflict in American
3:17history or world history probably, let alone uh in a really vicious insurgency like they were
3:25fighting. You know, this was not a conventional war. It was you especially in Iraq, the enemy was
3:32vicious on a level that is uh you know, hard for most people I think in our society to really even
3:37believe. And yet our guys continued to treat the people that they were uh who were under occupation
3:44with dignity and respect by and large. And they really did have the idea that they were there
3:48to try to help these people and to free them from this, you know, again, whether we agree with that
3:53or not, they they believe that. And if they hadn't believed that, they would not have been as willing
3:59to to risk themselves and their friends the way that they did. I mean, we took a lot of casualties
4:05in Iraq and Afghanistan because we refused to do certain things that we could have done
4:09much easier. Um we could have done in ways that would have killed a lot more of their civilians,
4:15but preserved a few of our soldiers' lives. Yes. And we chose not to do that. And that
4:20I you know, it's unfortunate because over the course of the war on terror, and I think largely
4:28in more recent years due to our our our just compulsive need uh of our in in our
4:36political discourse to find ways to rationalize everything that we see the state of Israel do,
4:42um it's forced us to really compromise on a lot of those values because there's just
4:47if you don't compromise on them, then you have to condemn what's going on in Gaza,
4:50right? Exactly. And and so we've lost a lot of that over the course of the last few decades.
4:55We've been poisoned and polluted by it. I had this dark thought,
4:58um [clears throat] I think I mentioned this to uh our friend Scott Horton a while back how
5:05you know, back in 2004 when Abu Ghraib happened or when the when the photos came out,
5:11you know, again, I don't want to downplay it. Was a very dark chapter, obviously.
5:17Uh but it wasn't Saddam Hussein [clears throat] power saws and you know, uh screwdrivers in the
5:23eyeball kind of torture. It was sort of more of a more of a psycholo- its severity was
5:29was less than a lot of things that happen in the world. Yes. And yet people saw those photos,
5:35and they were horrified by them. And they weren't just horrified by look what we're
5:39doing to those people. They asked themselves, what are we doing to our own people here? Like,
5:45what are we making our kids do in this place? What is happening here? And nowadays, I don't
5:51know if people would blink if they saw something like that. I mean, they do see something like that
5:54on a weekly basis come out of Gaza, often posted by, you know, Israeli soldiers themselves. And
6:00people have to find a way, it seems, they have to find a way to rationalize and justify that stuff.
6:05And so, to do that, they've compromised their own most deeply held beliefs about
6:11um about what it means to be a civilized person. And so, when we go into Iran,
6:16I I'll I'll never forget when Donald Trump was entertaining the Prime Minister of Japan,
6:22and he mentioned, you know, the secrecy and the sneak attack that we started the Iran war off
6:26with, and he kind of made that slide joke about you guys understand that sneak attacks, right?
6:31And I mean, for the President of the United States to compare the way we just, correctly in my view,
6:37compare the way we began this war to the day that shall live in infamy.
6:43And to think back, you know, to the to the to the to Pearl Harbor and and how they felt about
6:50that at the time, how we still feel about it now. And then, if you imagine that the Pearl
6:54that that the attackers at Pearl Harbor had just happened to blow up a school full of little girls.
7:00I mean, it'd be on page one of every history book that talked about that incident to this day,
7:04right? It was some because it's something that offends our basic sense of decency and honor. You
7:09You don't launch a sneak attack in the middle of negotiations. That's just not the way uh European
7:16civilization has has conditioned itself to behave over the years. But, we've compromised that stuff
7:22in very recent years, I think, um to the point where the cognitive dissonance became so great
7:28that we either had to change our ways, or we had to just give up on certain values. And I
7:32unfortunately think that, you know, we've we've um at least our political class has
7:38has gone the wrong direction on that. You know, our guys out there, our soldiers and Marines,
7:44they're it's always tough for me because like I I don't like a lot of the actions that they're
7:51forced to take overseas in service of things that I think are beneath them. Um and yet I know from
7:59personal experience that the guys themselves, those are our best people and they're often
8:04criticized by people who are not fit to tie their bootlaces. I agree with you. and and those guys,
8:11if you give them a good reason, they will go fight. They will they will risk their own life
8:17unnecessarily to avoid the possibility of harming an enemy civilian. That's who these guys are.
8:26But when you remove that sense of honor, you know, that's been on every recruiting ad and recruiting
8:31poster going back as far as you can imagine, when you tell them that we're going to launch
8:35a sneak attack in the middle of negotiations on a much weaker country, we're going to threaten
8:40to end their civilization and destroy their civilian infrastructure over a war we started
8:45for reasons that nobody's really bothered to even articulate to the American public, it becomes much
8:52more difficult to get those guys to do their job. And I and I and I think that within the service,
8:56these guys are still duty bound enough that they will do whatever we ask them to do,
9:02but that's all the more reason not to abuse that trust and and we really have. We've just burned
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10:19What does it do to us? Like, why would a civilization decide at its peak evolution,
10:27as you just said, the high point of its of its existence, that it was going to treat
10:33enemy combatants as human beings? Like, that is a kind of new innovation in world history, right?
10:41Is there any evidence that's ever happened before at any time ever?
10:46I you poof. Outside of European civilization, it would be really hard to really hard to think
10:52of any examples. Because traditionally, when I'm at war with you, I get to torture you to death,
10:59enslave your children, rape your wife, burn your fields, slay your livestock. Like,
11:03literally whatever I want. I own you. You're not human. Right. And you know, that's something that
11:07only emerges uh under conditions of uh under under conditions of strong organization, leadership, um
11:17internal [clears throat] internal discipline, and really just the the organizational aspect of it,
11:21right? When you look at World War I, for example, absolutely savage war,
11:25where we were spraying cans of Raid at enemy lines just to choke people to death with gas.
11:30It's horrible, exterminationist war, but one that was almost entirely restricted to enemy soldiers.
11:38And when soldiers were taken captive, they were treated with dignity and respect. Um by all sides,
11:45by the way. Um And when you see in Eastern and Central Europe immediately after the war,
11:51same people who just fought this uh relatively organized, relatively disciplined war uh from
11:591914 to 1918, when all the empires broke down and the states fell apart, and organization went away,
12:06um you saw a descent into chaos and madness that's uh straight out of,
12:12you know, ancient history books, where, you know, wars became exterminationist to entire societies,
12:19where the goal was to wipe people out and push them out. And these are the same people who were
12:23fighting the war in a relatively Christmas across the trenches, famously. Right. I mean, that was
12:29Western Front guys, but like on the Eastern, you know, cuz it was in the states specifically
12:34where uh everything fell apart, where the go- I mean, just This is something that I've really
12:39been trying to convey in my World War series right now, because it's I think very difficult for most
12:44Westerners to really picture the the trauma that this would cause. I mean, when I was talking to um
12:52my friend Jaco a while back, and he was describing how they'd be fighting in Ramadi,
12:57and it's just a insane gun battle, mortars going off, explosions, gunshots going everywhere. So,
13:03they would kick down a door, take cover inside of a building, and it's somebody's house. And
13:08like there's the wife, and the kids are hiding under the table, and like that's what's going on.
13:11You have this flash of like, oh, wow, like this is happening outside somebody's front door, you know?
13:17And so, back after the First World War, when the German Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
13:22and the Russian Empire, so basically everywhere from the Rhine to Vladivostok,
13:27the government just disappeared. All of them in the in the course of about 18 months or so,
13:32uh all the governments disappeared. There's no police to call. There's no government to expect to
13:38come in and enforce order of any kind. You really saw a complete uh descent into um primitive sort
13:46of human tendencies as people started to really focus on their immediate survival as opposed to,
13:52you know, um things that we would associate with civilization, meaning that, you know, the the the
13:56the idea that you're living historically and are are part of a a chain of being that stretches out
14:03long before you were born and will continue long after you're dead, and there's certain
14:08um there's certain things that you're expected to uphold as you steward, you know, through these 70
14:13or 80 years of your existence, uh when when it's your turn to steward your civilization,
14:18there's certain things that you're expected to uphold and make sure that the next generation
14:22inherits them just as you inherited them. [clears throat] When all that falls apart and your time
14:27horizon collapses to this afternoon, because you're looking at your kids and there's no food,
14:33and they're hungry, and they're, you know, belly's are bulging and their cheeks are sunken in, uh
14:38there's not going to be anything on your mind except for how do I feed my children.
14:42And when people uh when when when when people's horizon shrinks down to that level,
14:48become something very close to animals, and that's what you that's what you saw happen immediately
14:52after the First World War in a lot of Eastern Central Europe. And so, um this is something that
14:59you know, it from from a basic level, you see that you know, you can think of a lot of things
15:04like this where um if you're the only person behaving this way, then it really makes no sense,
15:11and you're just going to end up nailed to a cross. Like that's what's going to happen to you.
15:15Um but if everybody can come around and embrace these values and basically behave this way,
15:21then it's much, much better for everybody. And when you're able to achieve that, when you're
15:26able to get to a place where because America had a reputation it's not perfect, especially, you know,
15:33in um you know, what we we used to call the third world, but you know, had a reputation that
15:40we might get carried away, you know, in a in a in a counterinsurgency, say. We may in um
15:46a total war, like the Second World War get you know, drive ourselves to the point that
15:52we're firebombing cities. But there are still certain basic rules of fairness. Like you don't
15:58start a war of aggression with a sneak attack in the middle of negotiations that people would
16:03have said, "Yeah, but America wouldn't do that." Even our enemies would have said that. And when
16:07you have achieved that, when you've gotten to a place where that really is true of your people
16:12that's something that you really have to hold on to because the minute you let go of it,
16:17you let go of that bar, that ledge, you start falling down into that very dark place.
16:24And the way you understand yourself changes.
16:27Which is, you know, I'm not saying it's the most important thing, how you treat other people is
16:30the most important thing. However, it's not unimportant how you see yourself. Like I'm
16:35the sort of man who will do this, I'm the sort of man who will refuse to do that. And I think that's
16:41that's the idea from which self-respect and dignity grows, right? Like Right. And
16:46our civilization is, you know, emergent from our collective quality in that sense. You know, how
16:52how individuals see themselves, you know, the sum of all those uh self-perceptions adds up to
16:59um you know, to to a society and a civilization eventually in the
17:03direction that it's going to take. And when you when you stop when you stop seeing and treating
17:13people you're in conflict with as human beings and see them just purely as a material obstacle to
17:19whatever whatever goal you've set for yourself. Um you know, you're you're you're
17:26handing the reins over to Satan at that point. I so strongly agree. The most distressing part
17:31of all of this, I had the same thoughts when this war started. It's hard to believe that In fact,
17:35I I couldn't believe we did that or when we double-tapped the girl's school. Even now, it's
17:39hard to believe that could have been intentional. But, the unwillingness of the Secretary of War
17:46uh or the president to apologize for it. He never apologized for it. Um
17:52uh you know, suggests that And at first trying to deny that it was us. I mean, it's just
17:57Like I I If I was the emperor of the United States and I could you had you'd have to be
18:01the emperor because if you're an elected official, our system just doesn't It's not It's not built
18:06to incentivize this kind of behavior. Um you could stay at war with Iran, fine,
18:11if there are reasons to be at war. I would offer restitution to the families of those girls. In the
18:16middle of the war, I would do it. And I think that that kind of thing goes a long way. But, what's
18:21so distressing is not just that like Trump did this. Well, obviously Trump is totally degraded
18:25as a person. That's widely known. But, there was no kind of popular reaction against it. There were
18:30no protests. There were zero anti-war protests. There were zero anti-double-tapping girl school
18:36protests. There were almost no commentary in the fact it was a it was a Pearl Harbor that
18:41we committed. Yeah, we think about you know, I think about this a lot. One time when I was
18:45still with the DOD, I was out uh training a ship's crew on their on their missile defense
18:51uh system and or their air defense system. This was maybe it must have been 20 19 or early 2020
18:59just before COVID because it was in a Everybody's talking about the election that was coming up.
19:04And I remember uh one of the kids on the ship was 17 years old. You know, his parents had to
19:09sign on the dotted line to let him uh get in at under 18 years old and it hit me
19:14this kid wasn't alive when 9/11 happened which means for his entire life and I mean
19:20the people who are going to go out and protest these are 17-25 year olds traditionally right
19:25all of that entire generation we've been doing this stuff since as long as I can remember
19:30you know Abu Ghraib they probably it was that was something they learned about in the history
19:33class because that was something that was you know they were three or four years old
19:37and so we've been at war and you know this is one of the one of the real issues with
19:42prolonged protracted war is the degradation of the spirit of the societies that are engaged in it
19:48you know if you look at any conflict that's been really long-running the Israelis and the
19:52Palestinians or the Israelis and the you know the surrounding region in general the Balkan wars for
19:58example go to the Balkans today you meet Serbs my great-grandmother was from Serbia you go meet them
20:03they're they're just Europeans they're fine it was not that long ago that they were
20:09fighting an absolutely savage war I mean at the bottom level of you know of human conflict and
20:16you say well how is this even possible it's like well because when you're engaged in a conflict for
20:20that long you know you're fighting a conflict your parents were fighting and their parents might have
20:25been fighting um that the hatred that is necessary to keep a conflict like that going over time it
20:33just it comes to define who you are in important ways until you get out of that conflict cycle
20:38and I you know I I think that is comes back to what I said about Abu Ghraib a minute ago I just
20:45you know people would have protested if we had opened the Iraq war in 2003 by killing 150
20:52little girls people would have a problem with that they wouldn't have overthrown the government they
20:56wouldn't have necessarily you know forced them to stop the war anything like but people would have
21:00a problem with it and people public officials would have felt the need to explain themselves
21:05but when that's all you've known, uh and, you know, anybody under
21:11really like 30 years old at this point, this has been their entire lives, um it's not a shocking.
21:18It's just how the world works as far as they Is that why Israel's been able to ethnically cleanse
21:24the territories, Gaza most of all, without anyone in our political class saying anything about it?
21:30It's definitely one of the reasons. And and, you know, it's why there's I think there's a uh
21:36there's a a tendency among really strong uh American Zionist elements,
21:43uh who, you know, the I mean, by strong I mean the people who this is sort of their first and only
21:47issue, or at least their bottom line. There are many of those. Um there's been a push to sort of
21:54to sort of desensitize people to that kind of thing. And to place uh what
22:00Here's a perfect example. When you were on uh I believe it was your interview with Rogan,
22:04and you said the outrageous, just insane thing that maybe we shouldn't have nuked a
22:10couple cities full of civilians in Japan. And of all the things that you said in that interview,
22:15that was the thing that people were just so angry and so outraged by, right? Because the
22:19minute you start asking those kind of questions, that attitude carries over into the modern day,
22:25and you start judging decisions that we're making now according to, you know, these very human
22:29standards. And um But absolute standards. Like it's always wrong to murder civilians. Right.
22:35who does it. And, you know, if if Because, look, the the bottom line is, for all of the
22:41uh influence and power that the Zionist lobby has in the United States, if Americans
22:48saw what was going on with the Palestinians and did not approve of it and demanded an end to it,
22:53they would have to stop. That's the bottom line. And so, it's a strategic imperative for them,
22:59you know, for people like To corrupt so completely that they don't even care that they're paying for
23:04genocide. Yeah. And Just to rot the souls of the host nation so thoroughly that it's like,
23:09"No, that's fine. It's a strategic imperative. Yeah, okay. Boy, what a cost to us. To them, too.
23:18They might not know it, but to them, too. What do you mean? Uh, you know, the corruption, uh,
23:24it [clears throat] it it corrupts the heart of the of the corruptor, you know,
23:27just as much. So, you know, they suffer from it as well, even if they don't know it.
23:32I think that's I think that's I try to keep that in mind. Well, you probably have heard about the
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24:39where does this war go? I I should just say for those who aren't familiar with your bio, you spent
24:4420 years working for the Defense Department, 10 active, 10 as a contractor. I think this right?
24:49Working a lot of the time on missiles and missile defense. So, would say you're literally an expert
24:55on that subject. And our munitions stock is like a a big factor in how this goes going forward. So,
25:03where does this war go, do you think? You know, it's hard for it's hard for me to imagine. We were
25:09talking about this beforehand about how I'm always just hopelessly naive and optimistic when it comes
25:14to all these things. I was the guy uh you know, uh full admission before uh the Russian invasion
25:21of Ukraine who was being like, "No, I don't think they'll do it. That would be crazy." That's what I
25:24said that I did unfortunately. Same thing as we were building up all of our munitions for this
25:29attack on Iran. I was the one saying, "Oh, this doesn't make any sense." You know, just from a
25:34from from a technical standpoint, from a logistical standpoint, this doesn't
25:38make any sense because we're not going to invade Iran. Iran knows we're not going to invade Iran.
25:44I'm doing it again, by the way, right there. [laughter] But, this was my This was my thinking.
25:48And so, there are like knowing those things, there are just certain limitations to what we can do in
25:53a standoff war. Meaning a war where we're mostly launching munitions from outside of Iran's borders
26:00uh for fear of their own air defense network and flying our, you know, uh our own manned aircraft
26:06over them. And and also, you know, our strategy has changed over the last, you know, over the
26:12course of the war on terror. We have this very strong dependence on unmanned drones, you know, um
26:18the Reapers now, the Predators famously in the Iraq and Afghanistan war, um where you know,
26:23we've come to rely on them to a tremendous degree. But, those things are not Those are
26:28not stealth platforms. You can't get real close with them. What you can do is launch long-range
26:33standoff weapons from far away. But, there's only so much you can do with these things. People have
26:37this idea, I think, like if a missile hits this building that we're in, that's going to be really
26:42bad news for us. The people across the street they'll probably be fine. This is not, you know,
26:47these things are are not nuclear weapons. Like a Tomahawk missile, you remember back when uh
26:52in the first Trump administration when he launched those Tomahawks at that Syrian airfield because
26:56they supposedly used chemical weapons. Yeah. He launched something like that. a lie, I think we
27:00know. Yeah, yeah. Um he launched something like 80 Tomahawk missiles at this airfield and it was
27:06back up and running a week and a half later. I mean, these things are not massive payload
27:10because they got to fly 600 miles or something to get to the target, right? So, a huge portion
27:14of it is just the rocket fuel to get it there. And so, the payloads are 500 lb, maybe you know,
27:20a little more or less than that, which is again, if you're in the building, that's bad news, but
27:25uh you're not going to level a civilization as Donald Trump keeps threatening using standoff
27:29weapons like that. And so, knowing that and having a rough idea, it's been a while since I've been
27:34in the game, but having a rough idea of what our stockpiles are, of what's involved with you know,
27:41uh fighting a long-distance war like that where our bases that are in theater are under assault
27:46and mostly not usable, um [clears throat] it makes the logistical element extremely difficult.
27:51I was describing to you how if you have a say a destroyer, which is our primary air and ballistic
27:57missile defense platform and also the platform from which we launch our Tomahawk missiles,
28:01you know, then we have submarines as well, but uh but mostly destroyers and cruisers and more
28:06destroyers and cruisers now. Um may you know, you've got 128 missile [clears throat] cells.
28:11Some of those are going to be intermediate-range anti-aircraft, anti-cruise missile SM-2 type
28:17missiles. Uh some of those are going to be Tomahawks and depending on what the mission is,
28:22will depend the total loadout, but some of those are going to be Tomahawks. Some of those are going
28:26to be vertically launched torpedoes. Some of those are going to be really short-range ESSMs. And
28:32when you get And then some of them are going to be long-range ballistic missile defenses uh missiles,
28:36right? So, let's say you've got 32 long-range anti-ballistic missile defense uh missiles.
28:43When a missile's coming in, you You fire one missile at it. You fire two in each volley and
28:49usually you're sending multiple volleys before the first volley even reaches its target because
28:53you want to be pretty sure and you don't want things are traveling so fast that, you know,
28:57you don't want to necessarily find out that you missed the first time and then have to make the
29:01decision to fire again. So, multiple missiles each time. If you got 32 missiles, you'll be lucky if
29:07really lucky. I mean, this is if everything goes absolutely perfectly. If you can shoot
29:10down eight incoming with that. Well, what happens then? You know, you don't have a supply ship that
29:15rolls up and gives you a another magazine of missiles to pop in. You got to go back to
29:21one of the very few bases around the world where we've got large stockpiles of those missiles and
29:25the facilities on base to reload them and it's hard hats and cranes and it takes multiple days
29:31just to do that, let alone the time to reload. Just a couple of days to reload and that's not
29:35counting the time it takes to transit going, you know, all the way to Diego Garcia and back.
29:40And um Can you For those who don't have a map handy, is Diego Garcia right around the corner?
29:45Uh no, it's way out in the middle of the Indian Ocean. You know, it takes, depending on,
29:50you know, the platform or the ship that's that's going out to it, take you close to a week to get
29:54out there. One way? One way. Yeah. And so, and then a couple days to reload is well. Um and so,
30:01you know, you you one of our ships is out there, maybe it maybe it gets shots off at eight missiles
30:08and then it's got to take two and a half weeks to go reload its missiles and come back. It's just
30:12something that was not sustainable. It's one of the reasons that I just thought it was this this
30:17is crazy. I don't think they're going to do this because it just makes no sense. And as we saw,
30:21it made even less sense than I thought because one of the things that, you know, those of us
30:27who are on the technical side of missile defense understood for a long time that the general public
30:31and honestly a lot of government and even military officials, I think, like high-level
30:35military officials, um didn't understand cuz I think that the, you know, whereas the,
30:41you know, certain aspects of the data might have gotten to them, the narrative that got to them
30:46was very often rose-colored, you know, in terms of what the what our actual capabilities were.
30:52And you know, look, if we want to do a missile defense test, a ballistic missile defense test,
30:58we will wait until all of the conditions environmentally are perfect. We will do it
31:04at a specific time where they'll say countdown 10 9 8, you know, so you know exactly when they're
31:10launching, exactly where they're launching from, exactly where that missile is headed,
31:15and we place our assets, our radar and our missile launchers in specifically the place that will give
31:20them the absolute best view and best chance of engaging that target. What? This is during a test?
31:25This is during like a test, right? Because we're trying to baseline the system. We want our data
31:29to be something that uh we know under absolutely controlled conditions, or to the extent that we
31:34can make them that way, what our data is going to read, and then we can judge deviations from there.
31:39Um and there we'll often you know, we'll usually hit the thing, but not always. Still still tough.
31:46It's hard to do. Um you know, ballistic missiles are very difficult. And this is something,
31:49by the way, that you know, even through government shutdowns and everything like that, was basically
31:54SOCOM and ballistic missile defense had we just had unlimited money. We were the two we never
31:59shut down, we never had any of our budgets looked at, anything like that. And we're very
32:03because we placed a very high priority on it. And so, from a technical standpoint, you knew it was
32:08very difficult to shoot down a ballistic missile. And about a week or so into the war uh with Iran,
32:15um you know, I'm watching all these videos, just crazy, like the footage we get out of these wars
32:19now, and you'll see a ballistic missile coming in, and you'll see a volley of two, volley of four,
32:25uh or two volleys of two, um go up and engage the missile. Very often the missile would land
32:30and blow up somewhere uh where it was headed. But then after about 2 weeks, about 10 days, 2 weeks,
32:36and then from there on, I started seeing all these videos of a ballistic missile coming in, and it
32:41was just we would flood the sky with interceptors, eight, 10 interceptors for every incoming.
32:46And as soon as I saw that, I was like, well, first, this kind of makes more sense. Like,
32:50at first, I was knowing the effectiveness of of ballistic missile defense systems,
32:56and we have the best in the world, by the way, but um it's just a technically difficult thing
33:00to achieve. Knowing the limitations of it, um I was surprised at first that I was seeing
33:06volleys of two and four going up. Once they started to get up to volleys of eight, 10,
33:1112 missiles per, I said, well, this makes more sense. And they would come out and say,
33:14you know, we're having a success rate of 97%. We're shooting down 97% of incoming. It's like,
33:19well, yeah, but you're shooting 10 interceptors at every one of them. And so, uh you know,
33:25you're you're you're shooting it down, but at what cost? And and when that started to happen, then I
33:30realized that this thing is way more irrational than I even thought at the beginning. There's no
33:34way that this can be a protracted war, because we just we just don't have that many. And we
33:38don't have a defense industrial base that allows us to sort of ramp that up real quick. You know,
33:43this is something these these systems nowadays are so proprietary and so specialized and high-tech,
33:51you know, you can't It's not like World War II where you can tell General Motors and Ford
33:54to start making tank parts. Exactly. Um this is something that even if you
33:59had the budget put aside, even if you had all of the resources you needed
34:03to build five more factories, we don't have the personnel to man those factories. We would have to
34:09get people that we have now to train up entirely an entirely new workforce to build these things.
34:14Just something that would take years under the best of circumstances. And so, um I There I mean,
34:22honestly, I was surprised that it lasted as long as it did, especially since I know uh from
34:27people that I that I speak to on a regular basis, good friends of mine, um who work in the Pentagon,
34:32that at the highest levels on the uniform military side at least, they were perfectly
34:36aware of the problems that even from the earliest days that, uh, we were going to have issues with,
34:43uh, ammunition stockpiles, we were going to have issues, uh, defending all of the things that we
34:48had committed ourselves to defending. And you saw very quickly that we essentially abandoned a lot
34:53of places that probably, you know, a lot of a lot of Arab countries who have spent a lot of money,
35:00a lot of credibility with their own people, a lot of, you know, they they've spent a lot
35:06building up their relationship with the United States for this eventuality, and they found out
35:10what that was worth very quickly when we started moving a lot of our resources over to, honestly,
35:15much less strategically critical areas of defense around Israel.
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36:31And so I mean the the whole thing has been uh you know, it's been a disaster not just for uh
36:38our our relationships in the region. It's it's been a disaster
36:44just in a much broader strategic sense because you know, if you go you look at Afghanistan,
36:50you look at Iraq people say we lost those wars and granted we you know, what we found out in
36:56those wars was not that the US military is incapable of achieving military objectives.
37:02We found out it's not the best tool to fight a counter-insurgency. Fine. Um but I promise
37:09you that the Russians, the Chinese, all of our potential adversaries out there, potential peers
37:15they still looked at the United States and they were like, yeah, but I don't know in a real war
37:19like we just don't know what they can do. Now everybody knows. Everybody knows the sheen is off.
37:26Um they know what our not just our our our political limitations are, but what our technical
37:32and and actual capabilities are. And that's going to reverberate as countries start to
37:36start to adapt their own geostrategic posture to what they now see are our our genuine limitations.
37:46How long can this go on?
37:50I mean it it kind of depends, right? Like the um there seems to have been a shift recently
37:56where Iran realized this how it looks just for me as an observer
38:01that Iran kind of realized um that they were getting played a little bit by allowing things
38:06to die down in a tit-for-tat while we kind of catch our [clears throat] breath and let oil
38:11prices go back down and let bond yields fall a bit and then we start again and they launch something
38:16in return, but then when we stop, they stop kind of letting us set the pace and set the terms. Um
38:22it was I had to laugh. I mean, it's obviously none of this is funny, but a week or so ago when Iran
38:28launched those missiles at Jordan, and they were like, "It was a sneak attack, this dastardly sneak
38:34attack." I'm like, "Is there a ceasefire that I'm not aware of right now? We're in a war." Like,
38:38and so it seems like they've adjusted a little bit to not letting us set the terms and set the pace
38:44uh to the extent that we had been before. And so if we had been allowed to just continue to do that
38:49a tit-for-tat on our own terms, at our own pace, I mean, we could probably we we could probably from
38:56from a pure military standpoint, not talking about um global oil reserves and stuff. Uh, we probably
39:02could have continued it for quite some time. If the Iranians, as it seems now, are wise to that,
39:07and they say, "No, you're not going to get a break and rebuild your interceptor stockpile
39:12while you do it, you're going to continue to spend those things." And um then then
39:19I mean, things are going to come to a head very quickly, you know? And and I say that
39:25uh with trepidation because it's so, you know, our our system, unfortunately, like the bravest thing
39:33that Donald Trump could do is to admit this was a mistake,
39:38pay some restitution to those girls' families, and get out of there. Stop doing it. This thing was uh
39:45that would be an incredibly brave thing to do. It would honestly like go a long way to making up for
39:49a lot of the the things that um he's done that I that I don't like. It would I would I would be
39:55I would be amazed by it. Um, but our political system is just not structured in a way that
40:00that's really even a possibility. And so if we are backed into a corner
40:06where we're running out of stockpiles, and the Iranians are aware of that,
40:10and they're not going to take their foot off the gas pedal because they're afraid that if they do,
40:14you know, that we're never going to stop, that we have to be forced to stop. Um that we could
40:20you know, take this to places that that I think even most hawks uh who are in favor of the war
40:27um [clears throat] would probably be uncomfortable with. It's obvious to me It has been obvious to
40:30me since day one that this was moving toward a nuclear exchange. I just thought that from the
40:35very beginning. The really dark part about that though is it's not an exchange. Well,
40:39ex- Well, exactly. Sorry, that's just a phrase. Yeah. Yeah, but that's how dark is that even Well,
40:44I don't know. We're assuming that there would be no response. I mean,
40:47there are a lot of other players in this beyond just Iran. There are a lot of countries with
40:51nuclear weapons including Pakistan and, you know, there's a lot could happen.
40:55But the use of nuclear weapons for the first time in 80 years. Like I thought that immediately.
41:01Do you think that's a a possibility? Man, um
41:10For Well, I'll say it's certainly a possibility for the Israelis. Um That's what I'm talking
41:15about. Yeah, it's it's really hard for me to imagine the American government doing it,
41:19but again, I'm I'm always caught off guard by everything no matter how many times I've
41:23been beaten over the head with a lesson, so um It really depends. I'll put I'll put it this way. I
41:29think if the Israelis thought they could get away with it, if they thought that they could handle
41:33the geopolitical fallout, they would have already done it a long time ago. Oh, of course. Well,
41:37they've threatened it many times. You know, if the last couple of years have taught us anything, it's
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43:16But I I just think of the consequences of losing this. So, for the United States,
43:21it means obviously the end of our empire. And I mean, all kinds of consequences that are
43:26hard to foresee, but it's a huge deal. It's like the end of the post-war era.
43:31And then we have to deal with whatever comes next, a world run by China, okay? So,
43:36that seems like it's going to Or or I mean, the lesson of this might be that nobody's going to
43:39run Well, that's exactly right. And and and the eastern part of the world run by China,
43:43which seems natural to me anyway. But um because they've got a bigger economy than we do. So,
43:49like why wouldn't they control the South China Sea? I don't really understand
43:53why we're fighting what's inevitable. And if we didn't want that, then probably should
43:57have done something to prevent China from becoming a bigger economy, right? But anyway,
44:03the consequences are big for the United States, but for Israel, what are the consequences of
44:07losing this? I'm just trying to be empathetic. of losing this for Israel, and this is um
44:14you know, this is a reason that a lot of the hawks over there sound as crazy as they often do
44:19these days. Um I mean, it could be could be the the the thing that sets the ball rolling toward
44:26the conclusion of that whole project. Well, exactly. You know, um Israel has survived for
44:32certainly since 1967 at least on this aura of military invincibility. And there are a lot of
44:40people over in Israel even now. I mean, Israel has trouble holding onto it even before all this
44:46started up. Israel has trouble holding onto its people. You've been to Israel. Yeah. We love going
44:50to the old city and things like that, but you go around and you know, it's there are nice parts of
44:55it for sure. I like going to the Baha'i Gardens in you know, in Haifa and and but in general
45:01nice part of Haifa is the part that was there before 1948. Sorry. And so, um you know, uh it's
45:10it's much nicer in um you know Paris or London or New York or something. Put it that way. Well,
45:16or Dubai, Riyadh, or Abu Dhabi. Right. And so, um you know, there's a lot of people I think who
45:21this was a big concern of the Israeli leadership after the 2006 Hezbollah war which they also lost.
45:28Um it was not necessarily that our enemies are going to see this and this is going to you know,
45:33lead them to become more belligerent toward us. It was that if our people don't believe that we
45:38are completely invincible over here it gets that that that job that their cousin has for him in
45:43Manhattan starts to look a lot more tempting. And people start to leave. And then you start to get
45:48this self-reinforcing cycle, right? Where it's the people who aren't quite comfortable with uh
45:56with with say the Likud government, the people who think that maybe Israel is going a little
46:01bit too far in Gaza, few as they may be left over there these days. But the people who um
46:07we would consider somewhat moderate, people who aren't prepared to die in their apartment
46:12you know [clears throat] from an Iranian missile because Netanyahu decided to start a war, um those
46:17are the people who are going to leave. Which means that the people who are left behind are going to
46:21be more and more concentrated crazy. That's right. And and more hardline. And non-productive who
46:26don't work and don't serve in the military. And and the people who do make aliyah and and travel
46:32there, you know, this is I mean, you see this I guess in like it it's kind of similar to um
46:38you talk to a lot of uh like Orthodox and Catholic converts and they're all just Deus vult, you know,
46:45just holy war kind of just, you know, really like thinking in these big grand historical like
46:50cosmic terms. Whereas you talk to somebody who grew up as an Orthodox or Catholic and
46:54they're thinking about the relationship with Jesus Christ and like trying to you know,
46:57that kind of thing. Yeah. And you get this sort of thing like you go out into the West Bank and a lot
47:01of these settlements and it's a bunch of guys from Brooklyn and they're crazier than the craziest
47:06Israelis. And it's like you know, and it's like of course they are. They moved from America to go
47:10out to live in this hostile territory and it's like naturally that's who you're going to get.
47:15And um and you know, as the society becomes a more and more concentrated version of that,
47:20then the stakes really do get raised. You know, what what what happens when you remove
47:25the last people who were against the first use of nuclear weapons from Israel? Cuz they go live in
47:31um New York or London. I mean, then you start to get, you know, a real problem. And I mean,
47:36you see this with like so shocking for Americans to read there's so much of what
47:40goes on over there that I think for Americans and Europeans, it's so far outside of our
47:46understanding of how human beings behave with toward each other that it people just they
47:51don't just don't believe it. They assume it must be exaggerated or propaganda. But I mean, Yeah,
47:55they're not really raping people with dogs in their prisons, right? Right. And and and having
48:01you know high cabinet ministers celebrating it and defending the rapists, you know. I mean, Ben Gvir
48:07essentially the equivalent to Marco Rubio in our system. Um he's he's the leader of the
48:14Jewish Power Party and he cites over the years and he's defended this position many times that one of
48:21his heroes Baruch Goldstein, the mass shooter who killed dozens of uh innocent Arabs back in
48:27the early '90s. And so it'd literally be as if the Secretary of State was a leader of the white power
48:32party and had repeatedly said that Dylan Roof was one of his heroes. And people are fine with that.
48:37And when you get to a place where your society is perfectly fine with something like that,
48:43you know, you have to you have to imagine sort of the the consequences that spill out
48:48in other [clears throat] areas maybe beneath the surface that you're not seeing, you know.
48:52Like they blow up the Temple Mount and then launch a nuke against Iran.
48:56But I guess the reason I've always thought it was a possibility is because Israel can't lose
49:05as you just said like I they've spent so many years hyping the threat against them falsely
49:11telling stories to themselves and the rest of the world about how you know they're just one moment
49:16away from being eliminated. It's always been fake. But now it feels like it's getting closer to true.
49:23Yeah, and not militarily wiped out necessarily and driven out of there, but I think it's something
49:28that could collapse under its own weight. You know, if you were to go back to the earliest days
49:33of Zionism and tell most of the people who were embracing the ideology back then that you're going
49:39to get your state, but here's what it's going to require and here's what it's going to transform
49:43you into, it would have lost a ton of support. I mean, it took a it took a long time and and a lot
49:48of a lot of effort to even get much of the Jewish community around the world to to support Zionism
49:54in the first place. I mean, it was primarily just an Eastern European movement. The German
49:59Jews, the French Jews, most British and American Jews, it took all the way up until the 1930s
50:04before they started to come around to it at all. Um if you you know, if you would have gone back
50:08then and told them that this is what it's going to entail, this is what it's going to take from you,
50:13um a lot of people wouldn't have supported to begin with. And so when you have this edifice that
50:17is built on some on the on the kind of brutality and requires really the not just the hard things
50:25to be done in war, but really to keep it going over time requires um the population to take on a
50:31persistent mentality of paranoia and hostility the way we've seen taken root over there.
50:37Something like that becomes, you know, it goes back to what you were saying about the effect that
50:41uh it has even on the corruptor. I mean, it it it it that becomes oppressive on people.
50:47And it becomes something that people uh are not as interested in defending. But it turns them into
50:53monsters. I mean, the more you think you're hated, the more you hate other people. Right. Yeah,
50:57it always happens that way. I think uh But but for all of us George Kennan um when talking about
51:02the Soviet Union, he said something like uh I won't be as eloquent as he was, but that it's the
51:08the privilege of every paranoid man to eventually prove himself correct. And it's because when you
51:14believe everybody's out to get you, you interact with everybody as if they're out to get you,
51:19and then eventually they get tired of it and they're out to get you. It happens with
51:24every cult, every honestly every like nascent nationalist movement. We saw this after the First
51:29World War to go back to that. You saw a lot of these emergent countries, the Polish for example,
51:35um the Czechs. You see it with the Ukrainians now, especially since 2004. When you have this newly
51:40birthed sense of nationalism, you're you feel like you're under threat. You know, you were just under
51:46an empire for centuries, you might be under an empire again if you're not ready for that threat.
51:50And there's this real real uh sense of a paranoia and hostility toward outsiders that kind of holds
51:58the national community together. And most of those other countries stabilized to a point that that
52:04you know, it didn't become it wasn't necessary any longer and the kids were raised differently,
52:07but in Israel, they've been in a state of conflict for their entire existence so that
52:11it's really just it's it's become the identity of the state. You know, the And and unfortunately,
52:17this is one of the saddest things about the whole project. And there were there were
52:20a lot of prominent religious Jews back in the early days of Zionism who feared exactly this.
52:26That Zionism was just going to swallow Judaism whole. And it really has done that. And um
52:33what that means in practice is that for so many Jews, not just in Israel, but in the diaspora,
52:40um the definition Oh, here's a perfect example of it actually. There was a Gallup poll or a Pew poll
52:46a few years back where they polled American Jews and asked them, "What is the most important aspect
52:52of Jewish identity?" And it was, you know, belief in the Torah, affinity for the state of Israel, um
52:59various value moral values and things. Far and away, the number one answer, like 70%,
53:05was remembering the Holocaust. Which is another way of saying, you know,
53:09when you when you when you consider like the Jewish understanding of the Holocaust, it's not
53:14the way the Armenians understand the Armenian genocide, where this is something that the
53:17Ottoman Empire the Turks did to us. This is the culmination of what mankind has been doing to
53:23us for thousands of years since, you know, the pharaoh and all the way on up through and then
53:27it culminated in this thing. So, when you say remembering the Holocaust, what it really means
53:31is remembering what they have done to us. And when that becomes when when 70-something percent of,
53:38you know, your entire population are answering that as the primary um
53:44the the the primary fact that that that that is cons- constitutive of their identity, there
53:49are going to be consequences to that and how that identity develops and how you relate to the rest
53:53of the world. And and you know, it's something feel about people who hate and persecute you?
53:59Well, I I mean, I know how I'm supposed to feel and how I do feel. beings Right.
54:03Right. No, Christianity offers us a way out of this, which is [clears throat]
54:09a true blessing, but but human instinct all human not just Jews or Israelis or
54:15Ottoman Turks or Armenians, like everybody feels, I think, instinctively if someone hates me
54:22and threatens me, I hate them back. Yeah. Hatred and anger, they make you
54:28they They make you strong when you feel weak. They make you um feel brave when you feel vulnerable.
54:35You know, they're useful emotions, but when they become again constitutive of your identity and the
54:40basic building block of your relationship with other peoples, then you [clears throat] things
54:46become sort of self-reinforcing, you know, and and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy over time.
54:51And when you have like look, I mean, when you look at what happened to the Jews in World War II,
54:57it's easy to understand why there's a lot of collective trauma that has been that has been
55:01passed down and it's You wouldn't expect people to be just over it, right? Um just cuz a couple
55:06generations with that. But that also doesn't mean that it's it's healthy for them or anybody else.
55:14You know, you can say like uh they say you're not paranoid if they're really out to get you and it's
55:19like, well, the thing is like, no, you still can be pathologically paranoid even if they are
55:25out to Even if there is something worth fearing out there, being pathologically paranoid is still
55:29bad for you. Still has really negative effects on yourself and and your relationship to the
55:34rest of the world. I was talking to uh um [clears throat] I a common friend of mine. I won't say
55:41I won't say who, but a common friend and uh we were he's Jewish and but but not um
55:48Zionist and not religiously Jewish. He grew up Jewish and um he mentioned that when he
55:53was a kid there was a period of time where he was afraid to take showers. He wouldn't take showers
55:59because his parents had drilled into him the story of the showers at Auschwitz and stuff.
56:04There was an interview a few years back uh with Winona Ryder when she made um the
56:11TV series of that Philip Roth book um Plot Against America or Plot Against the United States.
56:16Um where she said that when she was a little girl this is a privileged American actress,
56:22you know, that when she was a little girl there was a period of years where she wouldn't sleep
56:26in her bedroom. She would sleep with the lights on in the hallway right outside her parents' door
56:32because she knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that one day her neighbors, the parents of her friends,
56:38were going to break down their door and drag their family off to be murdered. This is a little girl.
56:43And I you know, I I I remember actually when I was at your show in Fort Worth. You were with
56:48uh Roseanne Barr. And I remember she told you a story about how she was a little girl
56:53and her parents sat her down and were having her watch all this footage of
56:57people being bulldozed into pits and you know, all of these emaciated uh naked people,
57:03you know, being liberated from the camp. All these horrible things. This little tiny girl. She said
57:06it gave her like weird twitches and nightmares for years and years afterwards. And it's like
57:13I get it on one level, right? I get it, too. Like those parents,
57:17all they think they're doing is preparing their kids to live in a in a in a dangerous world. But
57:23when you look at it from the outside, you realize like that's a form of pretty extreme child abuse.
57:28They're also teaching their kids to hate. Because if I I'll just speak for myself, if I felt that
57:33and by the way and I agree with you, I get why trauma persists through generations. I do.
57:39I'm sorry to sound like a liberal. I really do understand that. And I think it's real and I
57:42think the trauma is real. Like awful things were done to the Jews in Europe, there's no doubt.
57:47But if somebody told me that my neighbors could rise up at any minute and kill me,
57:53I would hate my neighbors. I would hate the any nation where that was true. Why wouldn't I?
58:00I mean, really the only answer to why wouldn't I is Christianity. Well, I right.
58:05Right. [laughter] So, um but yeah, when that starts to happen again, like it it affects the
58:11way that you interact with the people outside your in-group and you see this again on small scales,
58:17you see it with individuals. Individual people, the person at work who thinks everybody at the
58:22office is out to get them. Eventually, nobody at the office likes that person and they kind
58:25of are out to get them because that's how they interact with with everybody. And so,
58:30um that's always a danger. It's something that I found very strongly when I was researching uh
58:35different cults for my Jonestown series that I did. You know, that's a almost a universal
58:40feature. Amazing. Is everybody everybody hates us, everybody wants us destroyed because we have this
58:45special truth or whatever the cult's thing is. Um Jim [clears throat] Jones told his people that.
58:50They they all tell their people that, you know? And it's because the people are being
58:54held together by uh something that is really inorganic. And for that to persist over time,
59:01you know, you Like you can you can you can organize a group according to two principles,
59:05right? One is that there's something inside the group, inside the people that pulls them together
59:11or they can be packed in from the outside because external forces are preventing you from, you know,
59:15from from escaping. It's one of the reasons that you see, for example, so many cults, organized
59:20crime uh elements as well. One of the first things that they'll do as part of initiation is
59:25get you to do something that you can't take back. Yeah. Because now it's a lot harder for you to
59:31make your way back into mainstream society with the expectation that you're going to be forgiven
59:37for that, right? And from an internal standpoint, uh it it'll it lets you know that I can probably
59:44trust the person next to me because we're both similarly guilty, you know, that kind of thing.
59:47So, it does lead to in-group cohesion. But it leads to an in-group cohesion that makes conflict
59:54with external elements basically inevitable. So, is the world getting more stable or less stable?
1:00:00That's a rhetorical question. We're not in charge of the world, unfortunately, but you are in charge
1:00:06of, in fact, responsible for your own family and your savings. So, the dollar has lost nearly a
1:00:11third of its purchasing power since 2020. That's crazy. The dollar has lost nearly a third of its
1:00:17purchasing power [music] in 6 years. You know what hasn't? Gold. Gold has been a trusted store of
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1:01:33All of which leads to what's happening in Spain. So, Spain just had part of a long-standing
1:01:41like the biggest wave of a long-standing invasion of like 50,000 people over the course of just
1:01:47hours from Morocco. And this it it in the days following it became really clear that this was
1:01:56not organic at all. That the Israeli government and the US government will obviously knew this was
1:02:02happening and and basically was both governments were using mass migration as a weapon against a
1:02:09government that they don't like for various reasons, mostly because it's anti-Israel.
1:02:15And people are shocked to discover this. Were you shocked to discover that?
1:02:19Um again, kind of. [laughter] I shouldn't I shouldn't be at this point, but yeah,
1:02:24kind of. I still am always shocked. I I guess it's a good thing. I always look at it as a good thing.
1:02:29The fact that I'm still capable of being shocked. It's just the exactly opposite of what we're we've
1:02:34been told. We've been It's a pretty clear story that they've been telling propagandists in this
1:02:40country have been telling for the last I don't know, 10 years at least, really since 9/11, that
1:02:44we have to support Israel because they are the bullwark against the the defense against what we
1:02:52just saw happen in Spain. Like, we're going to get overtaken by the Muslims unless we support Israel.
1:02:59And here you have Israel supporting an invasion of a Western European country by Muslims.
1:03:05Which I think has been, you know, sort of ongoing for generations now. Like, they've been doing this
1:03:10for a long time. But most Americans kind of think we're on the same side. Like, neither
1:03:15we don't want to be invaded by the Muslims. And the Europeans don't and the Israelis are
1:03:20our ally in that, but they're not. Yeah, one of the one of the worst aspects of I mean, look, uh
1:03:31Christian civilization and and Islamic civilization are different things with their own
1:03:35geographic spheres and are you know, it's definitely a situation I think where um you know,
1:03:43what do they say? Strong fences make for good neighbors kind of thing, right? We should have our
1:03:47own spheres and um I think it would be deleterious for you know, um any European Christian country to
1:03:59acquire a Muslim population past a certain threshold where it becomes a
1:04:03a culturally separate, you know, thing. That that that's that's something that's not necessarily
1:04:08specific to Christianity and Islam is just two different groups and so I'm not in favor of that
1:04:13kind of stuff and I do see the problems with the migrations. Uh but one of the saddest things in
1:04:19most and grossest things that really has come out of just the last couple years of the the recent um
1:04:26things going on since really since since Gaza. I mean, it's when you look back on it,
1:04:31it's been going back it's gone back further than that, but it's really intensified where
1:04:35as Israel has lost support, they have really really um you know, they've almost they they
1:04:40they've lessened the propaganda that comes from the direction of sort of justifying and
1:04:45explaining and and building up support for what they're doing and directed it instead toward
1:04:50just building up more and more hatred of Muslims and Islam in general. I mean, you see this from
1:04:54people like Laura Loomer and other types who their whole thing is just we need to get Christians to
1:04:58hate Muslims because if they do that then their enemies are our enemies and we don't have to think
1:05:03past that and that's very unfortunate. Um Yeah, I never thought I would be the defender of Muslims.
1:05:08It never occurred to me. [laughter] Since I'm not a Muslim and I'm not to become a Muslim.
1:05:13But it's it's been so gross and obvious and anti-human that like at some point you have to
1:05:18be like, I don't know. When it comes back to, you know, the universal values you were talking about.
1:05:23I mean, there are certain things that apply no matter who is standing across from you. Exactly.
1:05:27And if you believe that, then I mean, a lot of this comes down to just personal experience,
1:05:31too. I mean, I spent a lot of time in the Middle East. I've known um a lot of the Muslim community
1:05:37down in like the South LA, Orange County area. And after a while, like, you know, once the the
1:05:43mystification, you know, the fog sort of starts to to part, you realize you Yeah,
1:05:48there there there differences for sure, cultural differences and things, but they're just people.
1:05:52Well, that's the thing. most Americans have very little if any experience with Muslims.
1:05:59I don't know that hate all Muslims. I don't know why that's better than hate all Jews. I just don't
1:06:03It's the same to me. Of course. Yeah, of course it it is the same. I mean, obviously it is the same.
1:06:09So, um it's really hard for I mean, when you think about Christianity, like the hardest
1:06:16the hardest command in Christianity, well, the hardest command in any world religion
1:06:21that's ever been made is love your enemy. And so, to be able to recognize that somebody is
1:06:26your enemy, that their interests are fundamentally contradictory to yours, and that you have to be
1:06:31prepared to defend your interests, but not allow that to escalate to hatred
1:06:35for this creature of God that's across from you. I mean, that's something that um
1:06:41again, is built very deeply into our hearts, even people who consider themselves atheists, I think,
1:06:46to a degree very often still have that built into them. Um but it's a mistake to think that,
1:06:53you know, to extrapolate that and think that everybody in the world, certainly throughout
1:06:57history, but even today, um [clears throat] sees sees things that way, cuz they don't. And um
1:07:05yeah, again, I think it's I think it's uh That is Western civilization, isn't it? Yeah, it defines
1:07:10it, absolutely. And that's not just some random line in the New Testament. That's a repeated
1:07:15command from Jesus. Repeated, he goes on about it. And if you only love those who love you, how
1:07:19are you different from the pagans? That's easy. Yeah, and we have no excuse, you know, for um
1:07:26you know, particular We can't use particular circumstances as an excuse when he gave us the
1:07:31example and prayed for, you know, the people who were in the process of crucifying him.
1:07:36And so we have no excuse, you know, to allow that to build up in our hearts and we have to fight it.
1:07:41And very often, I mean, that is it becomes one of the you know
1:07:46Like you can you can survive a war physically. You can even win a war and still
1:07:53have it do so much spiritual damage to you over time that the the victory is hollow. I'm from a
1:07:59country that did that, so I'm I'm aware. You end the war by nuking a population and then you never
1:08:06apologize for it and pretend it was the right thing when it's prima facie repulsive. And look
1:08:11what happens to your society when you do that. Yeah. Yeah, and um you know, it's I I think that
1:08:19you know, the the the the post-World War II sort of post-Nuremberg society that we live in is very
1:08:26much a I mean, if you if you if you look at the effects of our policies uh and and the cultural
1:08:35tendencies that have been imposed, you know, it was much easier obviously throughout most of
1:08:38the 20th century to impose uh cultural norms from above because uh mass media was still in general
1:08:45trusted by most people and um it was controlled by very few interests. And so we were all sort
1:08:50of [ __ ] Excuse [clears throat] me, we were all sort of sharing the same couple of dreams,
1:08:54you know, and participating in the same couple of imaginaries. And um the general thrust of that,
1:09:03and this comes back to what's going on in Spain and Europe in general and in the United States,
1:09:07is that for a people to live historically, meaning to feel themselves as part of a chain of being
1:09:16that stretches back before they were born and and will [clears throat] go on after they live,
1:09:21that that is actually something that is very dangerous and that is something to be broken down
1:09:25and destroyed. I'm writing a forward for a book. You know, this is I always tell people that um
1:09:30you got to read you got to read everything. You got to read stuff even by people who, you know,
1:09:35all your friends or maybe even you think of as you know, on the extreme side. I'm I'm writing
1:09:40the forward for a book on the Nuremberg system right now by an author Thomas Sier and it's
1:09:47you know, he's a he rocks his leather jacket with iron cross, you know, patches on it walking around
1:09:55the streets of Chicago, right? So like most people would think wow, that's an that's an extreme dude
1:10:00and he kind of is in certain ways. But he's he's a dude who wakes up with a book in his face, goes to
1:10:05sleep with a book in his face and reads the entire time in between. He's a good writer and a good
1:10:10researcher and just a very smart guy. He's worth reading. He's one of those guys who would not have
1:10:15been available to any of us to read until very recently. You know, that's one good thing that
1:10:22the internet has done is broken apart that media monopoly. system, what does that mean? It means um
1:10:27well, there's a lot of elements to it having to do with geopolitics and warfare,
1:10:31but from the standpoint that we're talking about right now, you know, it's this idea that um
1:10:39for people to live historically in the sense that I just described it
1:10:42is something that is dangerous and to be targeted and broken down. And you saw this really on
1:10:49domestic social levels. I mean, you see it I mean, it's not as if that left-wing government in Spain
1:10:54is not part of the problem, you know, they they're are. But here in the United States, you know,
1:10:59you saw the effects of it over the course of the second half of the 20th century where
1:11:04you know, you had our cities back in the day that were sort of these organic communities with uh
1:11:11separate neighborhoods divided by ethnicity and religion that uh were not in conflict with one
1:11:16another. They had arrived at compromises over the years and ran their cities in an
1:11:20organic way and people were part of, you know, they were plugged into communities
1:11:24that watched them be born and that would watch them die and that their kids would grow up in
1:11:28and know that their kids were going to grow up in and they sensed themselves as these people.
1:11:33You know, they understood themselves as part of this living community that was going to continue
1:11:37on afterwards. So, it was important for them to uh make sure that the things they inherited were
1:11:42given to the people that uh that that that came along after their period of stewardship. And um in
1:11:51over the course of the second half of the 20th century, I mean, it was official US government
1:11:56policy essentially to use mass migration generally of African Americans from the South as bludgeon
1:12:03weapons to go in and break these communities up and drive these people out to the suburbs,
1:12:07drive them out to other areas where you know, that old parish church that used to be all uh you know,
1:12:14Italian Catholics, you go drive through there now in Newark and it's maybe some old grandmas
1:12:19who are still there, but everybody else lives 45 minutes away now. So, nobody goes there anymore.
1:12:24Now, all of those communities were broken up by force very often and through violence indirectly
1:12:30um on purpose. And it was because they were looked at as something that was potentially um you know,
1:12:36that that that that when people are living in a way where they sense themselves as part of a
1:12:41larger project, the idea after World War II was that that can and in fact will almost inevitably
1:12:47get out of hand. And out of out of Uh get get out of hand in what way? Well, the way that the the
1:12:54the Germans got out of hand. I mean, that's you know, the idea that they start taking themselves
1:12:58too seriously and thinking of their historical mission too seriously, and they start to act
1:13:02on it in the world in a way that is dangerous to other to others. That was that that was the idea,
1:13:07right? And of course, the only there's only one group, at least in the Western world, that
1:13:12we decided that that doesn't apply to, and it's because they were the ones who were the victims
1:13:15of the Germans. So, the Israelis, the Jewish people in general, very much live historically,
1:13:21and their right to do that and ability to do that is uh you know, it it it it you could say it's the
1:13:29the central and primary, certainly uh foreign policy, but even even with a lot of domestic
1:13:36policies mission of the US government and the sort of Western European NATO system in general. It's
1:13:41a central focus of that, which is very strange when you think about it. Uh until you realize
1:13:46that we're we're living in the aftermath of of of Nuremberg. We're living in the aftermath of
1:13:52the Second World War, and we're probably coming up to the end of that cycle right now. I think
1:13:57that we're you know, we're reaching the point where everybody who was around back then is gone.
1:14:01People who remember it directly and who have the real enthusiasm for it that was born out of direct
1:14:07experience um is probably fading away. That seems to be the historical cycle every 80 to 100 years,
1:14:14you know, um things blow up again and the crisis and and trauma of that explosion uh sort of shapes
1:14:22the four generations that are alive during that period, you know? You were either a young man who
1:14:27had to deal with it, you were a kid who watched your father deal with it, you were an old man who
1:14:31had you know, and so as people go through the rest of their lives and they mature into the
1:14:36um into other stages of life, they carry that with them, and it really shapes who people are
1:14:40for 80 to 100 years or so. And um the Second World War, at least the myth of the Second World War. Um
1:14:48And by myth, I don't mean, you know, that it's a lie, that's something that
1:14:52didn't happen, but, you know, something that has taken shape in the in the
1:14:57cultural consciousness in a in in in a in a way that that [snorts] uh that explains to
1:15:03people why things are the way they are, why power arrangements that exist now are are necessary,
1:15:09why all of it And legitimate. And legitimate, right. It underlies the legitimacy, exactly. And
1:15:15you know, I think I said this on the episode that we had that that got us in so much trouble, but
1:15:20um You said nothing wrong or controversial. It's I've never in 35 years of interviewing people,
1:15:26I've never had an interview so mischaracterized with that level of hysteria. It was like crazy.
1:15:31I would tell everyone who barked at me like, "Actually, Daryl Cooper is a very moderate
1:15:35kind of liberal-minded man who's like means malice toward no one, wouldn't hurt anyone ever." Like,
1:15:40"What are you even talking about?" That was crazy. Yeah, it was it was an interesting experience,
1:15:47for sure. I've seen it happen to other people, but when it happens to you, it's um it's
1:15:51But I've never seen it happen on the basis of less. [laughter] Yeah, and with such a level of
1:15:56with such a level of ferocity, too. It was crazy. It was Well, it just tells you a hurt
1:16:00dog barks. Like, the lies that have attached like barnacles to the World War II story define our
1:16:08lives and do lend legitimacy to projects that are inherently illegitimate and anti-human and
1:16:15harmful. The postwar system is a disaster. I don't know if it's a worse disaster than the
1:16:19war itself, but it's certainly a disaster. Completely destroyed Western civilization.
1:16:24I don't know if it's fixable. And so, I guess if you're one of the rare beneficiaries of that
1:16:30monstrous system, uh you know, you've got a lot at stake. Absolutely. And um
1:16:37you know, the World War II narrative is is one that uh
1:16:42or just look at the uh look at the response that we had in that episode to something that
1:16:46I said that I thought was fairly anodyne. I could have put it in uh less punitive terms,
1:16:51I guess, with a nod to all of my English friends out there, but um but the content of what we
1:16:57were talking about was not anything particularly extreme that you can't find in in A.J.P. Taylor
1:17:02or Pat Buchanan or something like that. Um but when you have a a a topic, a historical topic,
1:17:10that the slightest deviation can provoke that kind of a response, that sends a message out to
1:17:17everybody of how they have to handle this topic. You know, this is set about with taboos and
1:17:24you know, forbidden areas that you're not supposed to look at. to live like a slave anymore? Oh,
1:17:29yeah, that's dangerous, I guess. Right, right. And so, but when that happens, you're naturally
1:17:33I mean, this is going to it's naturally going to be a topic that is just incredibly fertile
1:17:37because you have something that is relatively recent history. We have a ton of documentation on
1:17:42that most people still know very little about what actually happened. And what they do know,
1:17:48a lot of it is not true or it's or it's, you know, true in a way that um doesn't necessarily
1:17:55uh prove the point that they've been taught to think that it proves, you know? And so, um it's
1:18:01I mean, I I figure we probably used to have uh you know, we we we we probably used to have similar
1:18:08myths around the American Revolution and things like that, but as our demographies changed over
1:18:12time, nobody really cares if you slander George ever went to jail for having different views on
1:18:17the American Revolution, okay? Just to be clear. [laughter] Indeed. And so, um you know, to me
1:18:24look look, every society, we need our myths. I agree. Right? Um but those myths, you have to
1:18:30it comes back to what purpose they're serving. And there was a period of time
1:18:34throughout the 20th century that maybe you could have said the World War II myth. Um
1:18:39look, it there there's something to the idea that uh really over the course of a single generation
1:18:45we had this moral revolution that made it so that you know virtually everywhere. I mean,
1:18:52you go down to Birmingham, Alabama in 2026 and you drop an N bomb in a 7-Eleven and it's going
1:19:00to be a a bunch of white people in there going to look at you like are you crazy? We don't say that
1:19:04anymore. Like, what are you talking about? And so, that's a moral revolution that um in part
1:19:09grew out of the Second World War and the the myth of the Second World War and what it was about
1:19:13um that you would look at and say uh you know, it was a positive development. It softened the way
1:19:18people look at out-groups and things. Great. But, what does that myth what purposes does it serve
1:19:24now? Well, and what's the fruit of it? So, Selma, Alabama is much worse than it was in 1965. Like,
1:19:31for the people who for the black people who live there. Britain is much worse than it was in 1945.
1:19:36So is the United States. So, if the system produces human misery and death, failure to thrive
1:19:44debt then like it's not legitimate. Like, do you do you know what I mean? Like, I'm all about
1:19:52politeness in the face of myths. Like, I I'm not running around attacking Which is why I do feel
1:19:58I like I felt anybody else's religion. When I made those comments about Churchill on that
1:20:02one as anodyne as I think they were afterwards, I was like I I I did wish I hadn't put it that way
1:20:06because there are people out there that you know what I mean? I wouldn't I don't necessarily love
1:20:10uh FDR, Abraham Lincoln, but actually deserved a lot more than this. but I don't want to hear you
1:20:17know, some Frenchman talking smack about him. So, I get that. get it. No, but the point is like you
1:20:22go along with certain things that maybe it's not fully true or it's mischaracterized or whatever,
1:20:27but like it's working. It it inspires empathy between people and we get along better and like
1:20:35I don't think you should call the fat girl fat actually. I think you should refrain
1:20:39from saying obvious things in the service of human understanding. Like I'm not for using
1:20:45the N-word actually. Just I'm just not. I never have. I'm never going to. Like I get all that.
1:20:51But if obeying the lie, pretending to agree with the lie gets you modern Britain
1:20:59or modern Germany or modern America for that matter, like why are we going along with this?
1:21:03This is all like this is what you get when you go along with the lie, misery. So no.
1:21:10Is that what you were trying to say? I think one of the one of the things that happened is that it
1:21:14it happened so rapidly, really over the course of a single generation in the 1960s that
1:21:20by the time anybody even realized what was going on, they found themselves in circumstances that
1:21:29the measures the the severity of the measures that would be necessary to correct the error
1:21:35are so great that they violate all of these all of these landmines that have been planted in our
1:21:42heads since earliest education, you know, of again to go back to what purpose is the myth serving.
1:21:49If you want to do something about the fact that your people and I'll and I'll speak about
1:21:54like European countries cuz we have a little bit different situation here in America, but you know,
1:21:57if you go to Ireland or some place like that that these are a real people. This is a people who
1:22:02have existed for thousands of years as a as a bloodline as a nation and they're about to lose
1:22:08their homeland permanently. That if you oppose that and want to take measures to correct it well
1:22:16you're a Nazi. You're Adolf Hitler and that's the myth that that that's the purpose that that myth
1:22:21serves now along with of course like legitimizing the American Zionist empire around the around the
1:22:28world, things like that. There's geo-strategic and other other purposes it serves, but on individual
1:22:33psychological level and as far as our own domestic policy and societies, it's so powerful that it has
1:22:41convinced people to do what by any measure is really the the craziest thing that any people
1:22:47could do, which is to give up its homeland forever without a fight. And to let their daughters to be
1:22:51raped. So, like the lie that European peoples and Americans believe is that all this is about love
1:22:59and tolerance, but your daughter's getting raped. That's not love. That's the ultimate act
1:23:04of violence. And yet, that's that's the result of it. Yeah. Literally the result. Sure. And you And
1:23:10And again to go back to the internal migrations in the 20th century after the Second World War, like
1:23:17in the United States, in the way that the internal migrations were used to break up these traditional
1:23:24Catholic parish communities in city after city after city around the country and done so
1:23:29I mean, we know this from from documentation, you know, that that these this was something that they
1:23:34knew what they were doing. They knew they were breaking up these communities that they saw as
1:23:39pools of like insularity, these black boxes that the system itself couldn't really see
1:23:43into and didn't exactly know what was going on. Moses wasn't just a highway designer,
1:23:47is that what you're saying? No. No. But this was a But this was a national push. I mean, this didn't
1:23:53just happen in New York City, you know, it happened everywhere. And And when you realize when
1:23:59that when you when you start to see that and then you start to see what's going on in Europe
1:24:05and now in the United States as well and you recognize that these are weapons that are being
1:24:09wielded against us. They're not something that um, it's not happenstance. It's not something that's
1:24:15being done um because, you know, uh the labor markets demand it. The labor markets demand it
1:24:22or because [laughter] It's the market. Yeah, or because we've just sort of you know, there were
1:24:26there were certain Cold War strategic imperatives that led to the to the promulgation of certain
1:24:34propaganda that maybe made some sense at the time that it's just outlived its usefulness and is sort
1:24:38of going along on its own on its own power at this point that this is this is a weapon that's
1:24:43being used against these countries on purpose. Because I mean you know, there's a there's a
1:24:49great little book by a a French author Jacques Ellul. He was wrote a bunch of great books, but
1:24:54he wrote one on propaganda and how it functions. And he has this great section in there on how um
1:25:02it seems like at first blush that a mass society and individualism are somehow like you know, that
1:25:12it's oil and water. That those are two completely different things. When in fact they're the same
1:25:15thing. Because when you break up say those parish communities and you drive everybody out
1:25:19to the suburbs everybody's living within their own fence line now. They're not living in a community.
1:25:26They're living in their own fence line. They maybe don't even know their neighbors' names.
1:25:30You have all of these people who are completely isolated and easily homogenized over time. And um
1:25:36you know, they lose their distinctiveness and become and melt into a part of a mass that you
1:25:42can now propagandize on a mass level in in a way that you know, you think about it like uh
1:25:49if you lived in a in a parish community back in the 1920s in the United States. If you lived in
1:25:55an Irish parish community in New York City and the government was or or the culture whatever outside
1:26:03force it is is trying to propagandize you in a given way that your grandfather and your priest
1:26:08and the elders in your community that everybody respects are all telling you is not true.
1:26:13You're not going to believe that. And you also just really have no need for whatever I ideology
1:26:18it is that's being pushed on you because you have your community here. That's your ideology,
1:26:22you know? And um when you break all these people up, I mean every every every intelligence agency
1:26:29going back to the Korean War has known that if you want to brainwash people, the first thing you have
1:26:32to do is isolate them. And so when everybody's isolated and yet you can propagandize all of
1:26:38them at the same time in their little isolation, it becomes very easy to And in the 20th century,
1:26:43when the media channels were as controlled as they were, I mean it was incredibly powerful
1:26:48and you know, I the one of the great hopes that I think, even though it was a originally a military
1:26:54technology and everything, is I don't think that they planned for the internet. And the reason I
1:26:58think that is because they created it. Even though they created it. Um [laughter] and the reason I
1:27:02think that though is because when you look back at so many at JFK, at all of these different things
1:27:09that happened in the pre-internet era, a lot of times like you probably had this experience
1:27:13yourself. You look back on this and you're like, this can't be true cuz they would have covered
1:27:16this up, right? It's like, no, they didn't even bother. No. Because they had control of the three
1:27:20channels and the newspapers and just didn't have to worry about it. I just don't think they planned
1:27:25for the internet. And so that's why there's a huge a huge scramble to try to clamp it down
1:27:29and consolidate and get control of it because it is a leak in their system. So that's but
1:27:35balkanizing your society and then atomizing it is the key to homogenizing it. I think that's
1:27:42such a smart insight and that's one of the reasons so much energy has gone into feminism
1:27:49because you know, the marriage is kind of the ultimate stronghold of that's the ultimate
1:27:54community. It's the basis of all communities. Well, and family also is the basis of any any
1:27:59uh community that is living historically in the sense that I meant. Exactly. Have you ever
1:28:04met a happily married woman happily married woman who's from mass migration into the United States?
1:28:11I mean, I think that uh Who's for any of that program?
1:28:15I mean, yeah, I mean look, you'll find you'll find people who are not particularly political
1:28:20and so they parrot whatever they think the but in terms of people who have given it any thought,
1:28:24no, definitely not because, you know, there and you know, it's actually really funny because um
1:28:30I really think that one of the reasons that this this you know, if you look over the decades,
1:28:36right? In the 1950s, it would have been impossible to predict the 1960s. 1960s probably would not
1:28:41have predicted the 1970s. Things things go in cycles, you know, there's a sine wave of sort
1:28:45of cultural movement that exists. Um but this one has really just gone in one direction for quite
1:28:51some time now and I think part of the reason for that is that millennials took until their mid-30s,
1:28:55late 30s to start having kids. And so people didn't become mothers, they didn't become
1:28:59fathers for a much longer stretch of time. And so that that group of people had a much
1:29:04those ideas had much more runway, you know, before people got into that period where they
1:29:08start to rethink things like that cuz I've seen this with um a lot of my friends. People who
1:29:13people who I hadn't seen I had this experience really powerfully recently. Good friends,
1:29:18but um I just hadn't seen them and hadn't really kept in touch all that much for 10 years or so.
1:29:23These were the two least political people you could possibly imagine. I mean, the idea that they
1:29:28would even have an opinion on any political issue would have just been it it just didn't fit at all.
1:29:33And when we met them again not because I brought it up and they couldn't go 5 minutes without just
1:29:40all this stuff about their kids' schools and the stuff they're teaching about. Changes your
1:29:43mentality, right? And so Even just the act of getting married, I have seen this up close a
1:29:48number of times, you know, a young unmarried woman living in a city has a certain set of politics.
1:29:55That woman gets married to a man she loves and respects. Boy, those attitudes change like in
1:30:00about 10 minutes. It's crazy how fast that works. Yeah, and when you have people who are isolated
1:30:06and whose uh whose time horizon has shrunk down to you know, their next fix of whatever it is that
1:30:15the culture's managed to addict them to, Netflix or weed or whatever. Gambling, benzodiazepines.
1:30:21Right. Um when you do that, I mean, you can do anything you want with that population because it
1:30:25it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Why did nobody protest when we blew
1:30:28up a school? Because at this point, who's we? Like that's really what's been lost is a sense of
1:30:36being a part of a we at all is something that has really been broken down and disintegrated. And so
1:30:41that allows the people who are at the levers of power to get away with almost anything because
1:30:47nobody really identify. Like nobody actually thinks about It sounds like a almost like a,
1:30:52you know, these days it sounds like a 1950s kind of, you know, slogan or something maybe made sense
1:30:57in Beaver Cleaverville when they say not in my name, you know, that the government is doing
1:31:01these things in my name. I feel that people but people so much these days really don't. You know,
1:31:07and what that means is that the people who do have control of the levers of power can do pretty much
1:31:12whatever they want without worrying about backlash cuz nobody really identifies with it unless it
1:31:17harms them in some way. I feel so personally affronted by it. You bomb a girl's school and
1:31:22then you don't apologize? I feel like smacking them in the face. Who do you think you are? Yeah,
1:31:26I'm a history nerd. So your country? I don't think it is. You just like rolled in here
1:31:31and like took control and then you get to do stuff and might in a country my ancestors built? Like,
1:31:36no. Yeah. Yeah, and Don't you feel that? Of course. You know, I'm a history guy and nerd
1:31:41and so, you know, I think about and maybe this is something that only a a nerd would do, but you
1:31:46know, I think about every time I read a history book about ancient Rome or the British Empire
1:31:51or just anything like that, I think about well, 500 years from now people are going to be reading
1:31:55about America. And what are they going to read? We put the first man on the moon. You know, uh well,
1:32:01well, now like we're we're shaping it so that they're going to read a lot of like
1:32:07they're they're corrupting the way that my country my people are going to be remembered by future
1:32:12generations and that offends me. It really does bother me and you know, I think a lot of people
1:32:17would find that sentiment. I know you don't but a lot of people today would find that sentiment
1:32:21just kind of silly. means is that you have a people who is no longer living
1:32:27historically. no longer they don't have the mentality that certain things for centuries
1:32:35my ancestors shepherded so that they could hand them down to me and it is
1:32:38my job to steward those things to make sure that the next generation can carry it on.
1:32:47It's degradation. You know, random strangers are like wrecking your
1:32:53house that your ancestors built. That's And it's it's so much like the [ __ ] revolution.
1:32:58It's like none of the people leading the like have any connection to the country at all.
1:33:05Yeah, isn't that something that I often think about how
1:33:10I think Nelson Rockefeller died in 78 79 something like 75 And the only Rockefeller that I know about
1:33:20after that was the one who got eaten by cannibals in the Indian Ocean, right? And I I always look
1:33:25at that as sort of He got eaten before. Okay, yeah. [laughter] Oh, did he really? Yeah, he did.
1:33:32But well, that kind of goes to my point, right? Is like I I kind of look at that almost as emblematic
1:33:38of the disintegration of power structure that You can tell he keeps track of the subject. [laughter]
1:33:46That like look over the years made its mistakes had its faults all these kind of things but had
1:33:51a proprietary sense of this is our country. This was my father's country and it's going to be my
1:33:56son's country. Yeah, I don't have another passport. Right. And they have their they
1:33:59had their hands on the steering wheel. Even as we had a an open system that was self-governed to,
1:34:05you know, a large degree, there were there there was a ruling class that ruled with a
1:34:09very light hand for the most part that had their hand on the steering wheel. And when
1:34:13that last generation after the cultural revolution and the Vietnam War sort of made it so that
1:34:18those people's own children, they just didn't want to do it anymore. They just they lost
1:34:23legitimacy in their own eyes. Their own college professors told them they had no right to to rule.
1:34:27Um they took their hands off the steering wheel. And that ever since then the American system has
1:34:33really been under the control of whatever organize highly organized well-funded minority group can
1:34:38manage to get its hands on the controls. And it's one of the reasons by the way that, you know, it's
1:34:44it's really I mean, if you go from 1948 when the state of Israel was founded up until
1:34:49the late '60s, early '70s, you know, people have this idea that America has always had this
1:34:55tremendous Zionist influence. And it's it's been there at certain elite levels and stuff,
1:34:59but it was never this overwhelming force that we started to see in the last several decades.
1:35:03And it was because you had guys like George Kennan, these old WASP guys who were going to
1:35:09who who who saw the big picture and were still living historically. They were like,
1:35:13if these neocons would have rolled into their administration and start barking orders at them,
1:35:17they would have told them to get lost. But now that just doesn't exist anymore. Everybody's
1:35:21time horizon is their own lifetime at most. Most people aren't even thinking that far ahead. And um
1:35:29their sense of uh continuity is completely cut off from the past and future. And so people who are
1:35:35still connected to that sense of continuity, who are well-organized and thinking in longer terms
1:35:40like that, who have been able to get their hands on on, you know, the the helm of of the state,
1:35:47they're really just able to make it do whatever they want. Even though um
1:35:51they may not be, you know, what we found is that you don't have to be this overwhelming
1:35:56dominant force that controls everything. You can get what you want done as long as you're organized
1:36:02and focused. And you know, we've really just kind of seen that. That's why the American government
1:36:07ever since really like the 1980s at least, but certainly um since the 1990s has just been
1:36:14sort of this this tool in the hands of whatever organized minority is controlling it at the time
1:36:20at least controlling certain aspects of it. You saw this for example after the fall of the Soviet
1:36:24Union during the Clinton administration, you know, back in the uh I think it was 90 the 94 election
1:36:3294 96 whenever uh you know, we were pushing really hard for an organization called the partnership
1:36:39for peace, which was you know, supposed to be like a non-militarized NATO that was going to include
1:36:44Russia and kind of be a an institutional platform for European uh societies to
1:36:53mediate disputes and just get learn to get along with each other and learn to live with
1:36:57each other again. And uh communicate on on diplomatic levels all those kind of things.
1:37:02Um and it was the big push and you had a lot of officials in the Clinton administration who were
1:37:07very much in favor of that, but you had another contingent in the Clinton administration that
1:37:11was just just irrationally hostile to Russia. And when you look at who a lot of those people were
1:37:18these are a lot of recent emigres or children of emigres from Eastern and Central Europe who
1:37:23just hate Russians. You know, and um or think they have a right to own Russia, control Russia. Or own
1:37:29own and control it, right. And um in the 96 or 94 election, one of the two, I can't remember which,
1:37:36um the partnership for peace basically just fell apart that year because Clinton was worried about
1:37:40the Polish you got convinced. I don't know if this actually would have been a thing, but
1:37:44got convinced that the Polish vote in Chicago and this Eastern you the Lithuanian vote over here was
1:37:49going to be critical to this swing state and so he said, well, we have to completely change our
1:37:53entire approach in foreign policy with regard to the former Soviet Union because this tiny
1:37:59well-organized political minority uh is I mean obviously Cuba is probably the best example of
1:38:05this over long period of time. But um you know, that's that's unfortunate. That's not the way
1:38:10that Well, we wound up in a war with Russia as a result. Yeah. So can I just ask about
1:38:15about Spain? So the internet is a flame with the realization that the president Sanchez that
1:38:23runs Spain is, you know, obviously aligned with this replacement project and is a source of a lot
1:38:29of Spain's problems in my opinion. However, this specific example of invasion was really
1:38:39the result of larger forces acting on Spain including the US and especially Israel and Israeli
1:38:45figures including the prime minister and his son are basically saying this is what you get.
1:38:51We're going to punish you with Muslims because you weren't you don't approve of the Gaza genocide.
1:38:57So people are just like, what in the world is going on? This is like dawning on people who
1:39:01didn't know this was happening and has been for a long time. But Spain itself, it was
1:39:07I was thinking this this morning, has been this kind of battleground for hundreds and hundreds
1:39:12and hundreds of years. It's considered a sort of irrelevant place now, good ham. That's it. Decent
1:39:18soccer, but like Spain, who cares about Spain? But a lot of people do care about Spain and have for a
1:39:23long time, hundreds and hundreds of years. Spain has been a place where larger battles are fought.
1:39:28Have you noticed this? Absolutely. And I would say that even as the Spanish empire declined over the
1:39:34years and it became something of a backwater as the rest of Europe developed industrially,
1:39:39uh the Spanish were one of the people and to this day remain um There's several peoples down along
1:39:47the northern side of the Mediterranean actually who are still this way, who are living
1:39:51historically in the sense that we were talking about earlier, where they still know themselves
1:39:55as Spaniards. And they still have a even if they're atheists and they don't like the Catholic
1:39:59Church or something like that, they still have a sense of continuity with their history that uh
1:40:06you know, that that that that people who have had conflicts with people who are living historically,
1:40:12who have had conflicts with them over the years, they remember that and they know that that the
1:40:16other side remembers it, too. And so it has been a battleground because there's no reason
1:40:21once a people stops living that way and it just becomes a you know, a kind of a
1:40:26atomized Blade Runner society or something, there's no reason to fight with those people
1:40:30anymore. Who are you fighting with? You know, you might have to put down a a rebellion of some kind
1:40:35of people who just you know, get really antsy or upset, but you don't have to actually have
1:40:39conflicts with those people because what people are you really even talking about? And Spain is
1:40:45you know, has not lost that to to a great degree. And um if you think about it, I mean
1:40:53all of the countries that European countries that that are still insisting on holding on
1:41:01to that sense of who they are, whether it's Spain whether it's Russia whether it's Hungary
1:41:08these are all the targets of the Western system. I mean of the of the sort of American led you know,
1:41:14whatever you want to call it, the global American empire some those are the targets.
1:41:17yeah. But why is that? I mean Cuz there's a rational explanation which you offered before,
1:41:23which is the lesson of the Second World War was when European peoples have a sense of themselves,
1:41:28they're a threat to others. Okay, so you have to break that down. You can't have
1:41:33you can't have Europeans with self-respect because they're a threat. Okay. you know,
1:41:38but there's also it feels like there's a deeper thing going on like there's a spiritual
1:41:44factor here that maybe I mean it's it's hard to get around that it's hard to get around that
1:41:51feeling, right? When you look at the history and you see the Spanish Civil War for example. Yes,
1:41:56what was that? Yeah, [clears throat] it's one of those I mean I'm going to have an entire episode
1:42:00on it Thank you. when I as part of this World War II series even though you know, it it only
1:42:06lightly involves the future Axis powers who you know, they were involved with the conflict but
1:42:11that's not really what it's about the the episode is really going to be about trying to help people
1:42:16understand how absolutely shocking what was happening [clears throat] over there was to
1:42:21um Can you just give us a quick without taking an hour but like what's your summary of it for people
1:42:26who aren't the Spanish Civil War so it's 35 to 39 something like that? yeah. Yeah, and um you know,
1:42:34there was a very very the thing that it is sort of most notorious for um is the anti-Christian uh
1:42:42just absolute zealotry of the Republican and later Communist side that came into it and it's
1:42:48something that you know, when the Bolsheviks took over in Russia one of the first thing they did is
1:42:5419 20 I think so very very early on they built a statue to Judas Iscariot in Moscow. What? Yeah.
1:43:02And this is the same time they're burning down churches massacring priests a statue to Judas?
1:43:08Yeah, I was surprised I actually only learned that like relatively recently. How did I not
1:43:11know that? Yeah, it is well indeed. [laughter] Okay. And it's the same reason probably that
1:43:19people don't know about it a lot of what happened in Spain in the 1930s. I mean you're talking about
1:43:25you know, something that can only had the character of what you normally see in history of
1:43:31from slave revolts like in Haiti for example where there is just um you know a conflict driven by
1:43:37abject resentment and hatred for for for the for the people so that you're I'm they were not just
1:43:45raping nuns they were not just massacring priests they were not just using churches as latrines
1:43:50and pornography theaters all of those things were happening they were digging up the graves of
1:43:58people who had died years before centuries before and desecrating their corpses
1:44:03you know these are the kinds of things were happening when you see something like that
1:44:07you know look uh Israelis don't like Palestinians they're doing a lot of really bad things down
1:44:12there they're not doing that it's not quite to that so that's fair and so when you do see
1:44:18something like that happening I mean I think it's very hard especially for people of our persuasion
1:44:23not [clears throat] to see a spiritual element in there Well what's it I mean first of all
1:44:27anyone who's ever dug a hole in the ground knows it's difficult work so to dig up a grave by hand
1:44:35is not something that you do because you're bored you do because you're driven by some overwhelming
1:44:41impelling force right you're doing things that humans are when when you see things that humans um
1:44:50you can never justify according to their own personal or collective interests but can only be
1:44:57justified by some by some larger ideological or spiritual imperative then you have to believe them
1:45:02when that's happening and well put nicely put and so that's that's definitely true in Spain
1:45:09you know for all of their um like I would put it this way like I think there's a lot of people
1:45:14out there who see those comments from Israeli government officials and from Netanyahu's son and
1:45:20so forth and think that their problem is with the Spanish government because the Spanish government
1:45:24has a problem with what's going on in Gaza I don't think that's really what it is. I think that um
1:45:29problem is with Spain and with the Spanish people themselves because they're seen as sort of a
1:45:36you know, look, as long as there's one one group of people left who are still living historically,
1:45:41there's hope for the rest of us. And Spain is one of those bastions. It's one of those places.
1:45:47And I mean, just just I think in the last couple of years, they just completed that cathedral in
1:45:52Barcelona, the Sagrada Familia. I bought my sister they came out with a Lego set of that.
1:45:57It's 12,000 pieces. I bought it for my Catholic sister, so she has to do it with her kids.
1:46:03But I mean, the fact that that thing took 120 years or something to build and they just
1:46:07finished it. And at no point, you know, over the last 120 years, with everything that's happened,
1:46:12all the social changes, the civil war, the world wars, everything that's happened,
1:46:16that project was never abandoned. They finished it. That's a people who's living historically.
1:46:21You know, those are people who the people who started that, the people who worked on it
1:46:2650 years after they started it. They did not see it completed. They never attended a service
1:46:32in there. That's what living historically means. You know, planting trees under whose shade you'll
1:46:37never sit, right? And so that's a people who's still doing that at least in remnant. And as
1:46:41long as that's there, it's going to be targeted. And um But how interesting targeted not just by
1:46:48you know, political factions within Spain that don't like it, though that's happening, but by
1:46:52the world. So the Spanish Civil War breaks out, they rape nuns, murder priests, dig up the bodies
1:46:59of long-dead Christians and desecrate them, and the entire intelligentsia in the West joins them.
1:47:06The Abraham Lincoln Brigade forms. It's like all guys from Brooklyn. W- what What is that?
1:47:14Uh it's a really deep subject. I mean, because you're talking about the same class of people
1:47:18who were all, you know, very pro-Stalin, very pro Trotsky and and and Bolshevik revolution
1:47:24as that was going on. And I think that just like with with a lot of issues, there were
1:47:30different people with different motivations, but the ones who are the the the engine
1:47:35of the whole thing, the the motive power behind it, you know, they have a very very deep belief
1:47:41that's driving them. And um and [clears throat] I think that when And what's that belief?
1:47:50Well, I think I think it comes back to I mean, look, these are there are there are people in
1:47:54the world for whom Spain is an ancient enemy. It's not something that has anything to do with
1:48:00phalangism and Franco. It doesn't have anything to do with whatever the political order of the
1:48:05day is. It's something that has same with Russia. You know, there are people in the world, peoples
1:48:10in the world who just have a deep and abiding intergenerational hatred of Russia. And they
1:48:16see their conflict in broad historical terms. It's not with Putin, it's not with this or that leader,
1:48:22it's with this people over a long period of time. And part of it's because those people
1:48:27uh you know, like when you get to a place where nobody else in the world is living historically,
1:48:34when the entire world uh is just a mishmash of atomized people and you have a couple groups
1:48:44that are still living intergenerationally like that, those groups are going to rule the world.
1:48:49It's going to be their world. They're going to be living among a bunch of human beasts.
1:48:55And and I mean that almost literally in the sense that their time when your time horizon has shrunk
1:48:59down to your next meal or even the end of your own lifetime, you're living like an animal lives.
1:49:04You're not living like a human being. And so, you're going to be living in a sea of human beasts
1:49:09as real people still living historically and you'll rule the world. And as long as
1:49:14and when there are other peoples out there who are also living that way,
1:49:20you're not going to be able to fool them into thinking that that's not what you're
1:49:23trying to do. They're going to recognize other people who are living historically,
1:49:26and they're going to recognize you as um it doesn't even have to be as as allies or enemies,
1:49:33but just as people who are doing that. And then once that happens, it becomes, you know, much more
1:49:37difficult to pull the wool over their eyes. And so the Spanish are a people who still have a remnant
1:49:43of their population and something deeply embedded in their culture that allows them to see things
1:49:48that we here in America, for example, where almost nobody is living historically,
1:49:52uh in the sense that we've been talking about, is even really we just don't have the conceptual
1:49:57horizon that encompasses, you know, um uh enough to allow us to recognize that in other people.
1:50:04Probably, you know, if you were to take maybe the Tucker Carlson audience is obviously an exception,
1:50:08but if you were to just take a lot of this conversation and show it to a lot of uh
1:50:12just a random cross-section of people, they would think they wouldn't understand half of what I was
1:50:16saying. What do you mean living historically? What do you mean intergenerationally? I care about what
1:50:20happens to my kids or but this idea of being part of a great chain of being that there's an organic
1:50:27living community of which you are a part that goes through history as uh as as as as a as a cohesive
1:50:36unit even as the individuals that comprise it pass in and out of the world. Um you know, this is
1:50:43something that used to be taken for granted by all humans everywhere in the world at least once we
1:50:48proceeded out of paganism. And uh that's what's been lost, and the people who are still out there
1:50:56living that way, at least in remnant, um have a different relationship to each other than
1:51:02they have to the rest of the world that's no longer living that way, if that makes sense.
1:51:07Not only does it make sense, it's one of the most profound things I've heard in a long time.
1:51:13I assume you've said this before, what kind of reaction do you get from that?
1:51:18Well, um I would say that the um my audience is fairly curated, partly thanks to you. So they're
1:51:26they're used to um you know, they're used to hearing me talk like that. Um so the reaction is
1:51:31is usually fine, but uh I have had the experience from time to time where you speak out a class
1:51:37on these issues and usually it's not even hostility you run into. A lot of times it's just
1:51:41people are befuddled. They don't exactly even know what I'm what I'm getting at. Um
1:51:47which is unfortunate cuz again, this is something that it was taken for granted by Well, and then
1:51:52taken from people without even uh their knowledge and it's one of the essential things to know and
1:51:58George W. Bush, who didn't put many things well, put it this well and he said everybody wants to
1:52:04believe they're living for something bigger than themselves. And I and you know, the missions that
1:52:09have taken the place of living historically of being attached to this larger whole are so small.
1:52:16You know, liberating Ukraine, okay. You know, or whatever, whatever they you know,
1:52:22war on poverty, war on cancer, you know, these are I mean, I'm against invasions, I'm against war,
1:52:27I'm against poverty, I'm against I mean, you know, I get it. But fundamentally, they're offering up
1:52:31a vision that is so just like silly and It's one of the reasons I feel so terrible for the
1:52:38for the people in Ukraine. You know, your average nationalist in Ukraine who thinks
1:52:43that [clears throat] this is what he's doing. I know. But he's serving the forces that are
1:52:46actually attacking it. And it's just very sad. Well, and of course, the you know, the very first
1:52:51thing the Zelensky government did was ban the largest Christian denomination and put priests in
1:52:55jail. So it's impossible not to see the Zelensky project, which is not Ukrainian in any sense.
1:53:01I think he only learned the Ukrainian language something like eight or nine years ago. Yeah,
1:53:04the whole thing's absurd. But he's the Trotsky of Ukraine, okay, fine.
1:53:09But it's the same [clears throat] as the French Revolution and the Spanish Civil War and
1:53:16and the Bolshevik Revolution, it's exactly the same program. It's the anti-Jesus program and
1:53:20like it always winds up in the same place, which is in total destruction and misery and
1:53:25the Ukrainians are an unusually great people, I think, just based on knowing a lot of them. Like
1:53:30great people, excellent people. Great culture, just good-hearted, decent Christian people and
1:53:36the fact that they're being subjected to this is really sad. It is. Yeah, it is. They uh
1:53:43it's it's a it's a going to go down as a mark of great shame on our country that we had anything
1:53:48to do with that whole situation. I mean, that's a that's an understatement of our involvement,
1:53:52obviously, but it's a terrible shame. And you know, I I guess I'm I'm really grateful that
1:53:59Dostoevsky's been my favorite author since I was in high school because it made it so that
1:54:04uh you know, when I started getting bombarded on all sides with anti-Russian propaganda,
1:54:08it was just I had an immune system built up to it because I already love these people,
1:54:12you know. Anyone who wrote The Brothers Karamazov cannot, you know, that's not a
1:54:16shallow culture. You can say whatever you want about Russia, but not my enemy. I don't care.
1:54:20You know. I just so strongly agree. Last question, as the United States for many reasons, including
1:54:29its own sins, gets pulled into all of this, what's happening in Europe is happening here. Maybe even
1:54:37more aggressively, we just don't know that, but it is. How how do individuals respond to that?
1:54:45Yeah, this is this is usually not a popular answer, um but I think that I'm not saying
1:54:52don't go vote in the next presidential election or anything like that, but um I think that the idea
1:54:57of imposing a solution politically from the high level the highest levels is probably I I think
1:55:05that's probably a lost game. I think we have to start to uh we have to start to look very close to
1:55:11us and build out from there. You need to focus on your family. You need to know who your neighbors
1:55:15are. You need to I mean because think about it like a a society works best or works at all
1:55:23when each of the concentric circles of concern, you know, your family, your community, somewhere
1:55:30out here is your country, uh maybe further out is your civilization, that each one of those
1:55:36concentrics that are further out have legitimacy because they nourish the ones that are closer in.
1:55:41And that it's those that protect and and nourish, you know, the ones that that are closer. And so
1:55:46your community matters because that's the world in which your family is able to thrive together, you
1:55:52know, your um larger political community matters because it allows your community, you know, and
1:55:58so it like that's that's how a society maintains legitimacy over time and becomes something that
1:56:04people are willing to march off by the millions to defend if that's what it comes down to. Um and
1:56:10I think that that, unfortunately, um again over an incredibly short period of time has I mean,
1:56:17think about how crazy this is. Like we went from all of human history, and I'm not talking about
1:56:22back to the Sumerians, I'm talking about back to yeah, you know, Homo erectus basically. Yes.
1:56:29Um people lived in a cohesive, coherent community among people who knew them and who they knew,
1:56:36uh who some of them watched them be born, they would watch those people die. I mean, they they
1:56:42they they they lived within a community that they were that they were absolutely plugged into as a
1:56:47as a significant part of. People lived all of human history that way up until like the 1950s
1:56:54or '60s. And then we just in a generation that is completely evaporated. So that people literally
1:56:59don't know the name of their neighbor that they live next to for years. And they have no uh I mean
1:57:07even worse than that. I mean their kids leave for college and for the rest of your life you see them
1:57:13once every 2 years on Christmas because, you know, one year they come see you and next year they have
1:57:17to go see the in-laws and that's it and maybe you hear from them on the phone once or twice a year.
1:57:22That is something that you took something that was absolutely so fundamental to being human,
1:57:27the social environment that we literally evolved to be adapted to,
1:57:32and you strip that away from people and threw them out on their own resources and they're
1:57:36expected to go out there now and find meaning for their lives and orient [clears throat] themselves
1:57:40in the world without recourse to um a broader community or even a family. And
1:57:46that's what needs to be rebuilt and you're not going to rebuild that from the Oval Office or from
1:57:50the halls of Congress. It's got to be something that starts some you know, it's very seductive.
1:57:55People on the right like to uh make fun of people on the left or criticize people on the left
1:58:00for being so so so concerned and having so much love and concern for people who are far far away
1:58:07from them, but to people who are, you know, right here close to them, they really don't
1:58:10like those people that much and that is a thing for sure. But we do that on on the right as well
1:58:16where you have a lot of people who interpersonally don't really feel a need to love their neighbor,
1:58:20treat their neighbors themselves, but Or even their own children. who are so concerned about
1:58:25whether um you know, the the federal government is being used to impose some moral law that they,
1:58:30you know, that they that they that that that that that is important, but that, you know,
1:58:34the far more important thing is uh are the things that are within reach. Start there and build out.
1:58:41And once you start to do that, here's the magical thing about it is once you start to do it,
1:58:46you won't even have to explain it yourself. It'll be so obvious that this is uh that this is um
1:58:53the proper way to do it because what you're doing is you're
1:58:56you're building something that you will know in the deepest core of your being is worth defending.
1:59:01And um, once you've done that, you know, then you've got solid ground to stand on
1:59:08to move out from there and hopefully fix the bigger picture. Derrick Cooper,
1:59:14just every time I see you it's it's really a soul bath. So, thank you very much. Anytime. [music]

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