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Darlie Routier: Our Interview With Her Sister, Danelle (Part 6) — Transcript

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0:01[Music]
0:12Hello everybody. Welcome back to Crime
0:14Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlo and I'm
0:16Derek Levasser. So today we are actually
0:19sitting down and talking to Darly
0:22Routier's halfsister Denell. And during
0:26this conversation with Dell, which we
0:27intended to be much shorter, but um she
0:30was actually super cooperative. She had
0:32a lot of good information, you know, she
0:34answered a lot of our questions. So, we
0:36had so many questions that the
0:38conversation did just end up going. She
0:40had a lot to say, too. Yeah. We So, we
0:42kind of just let it develop organically.
0:44We were initially going to do a full
0:46episode about, you know, Darly Routier
0:48and and from her side, why she might be
0:50innocent. We're still going to do that
0:52next week, but we're going to sort of
0:53cut in clips from this interview into
0:55that episode, but because it was such a
0:57good conversation because we had so many
0:59questions cuz she had a lot to say, we
1:01decided to just give this interview to
1:03you in full. So, this will be part six.
1:05Next week will be our seventh and final
1:08part of the Darly Routine series where
1:10we'll give our final thoughts unless we
1:11get some more interviews. Yeah. And you
1:12guys can tell us your final thoughts,
1:14too, after all has been said and done.
1:16And we had, you know, several episodes
1:19where we talked about why we think that
1:20Darly is guilty. Now we have a few
1:22episodes where we can hear from Danell
1:24and and see why her camp thinks that
1:26Darly is innocent. And next week we'll
1:28focus purely on why Darly might be
1:31innocent and kind of from that side,
1:33what their their view is on it, why she
1:35might be um innocent and not guilty of
1:38this. So we're trying to give it a fair
1:40shake all the way around. Yes, we
1:42definitely and you know, she was a
1:43little apprehensive about doing it. I
1:44told Stephanie, I got on the phone with
1:46her. I was trying to avoid getting on
1:48the phone with her because I wanted to
1:49keep it organic and I didn't want to
1:51discuss anything on the phone and miss
1:53it in the episode. I wanted you guys to
1:55hear everything. But we did talk on the
1:57phone and I told her, "Listen, listen or
2:00watch part five. We're going to give our
2:02findings." I went into it not knowing
2:03what I felt. I now feel that your sister
2:05did it. If that makes you think that you
2:08don't want to come on the show,
2:09completely understandable. You don't
2:10have to. But that's kind of where we're
2:12at right now. But we're going to give
2:14you an opportunity to come on if you
2:15want and tell your side of it. We're
2:17more than open to it. We have no skin in
2:18the game. We There's no incentive for us
2:21to say one way or the other what we
2:22think about her. We're just calling it
2:24how we see it. And she was like, "Let me
2:26think about it." And so, she listened to
2:28it and I was I was telling Stephanie. I
2:30didn't think she was going to come on,
2:31but sure enough, uh, she showed up. And,
2:34uh, I won't say anything more than that.
2:36We'll let you guys watch the whole
2:37interview again. Like Stephanie was
2:39saying, we didn't think it was going to
2:40be that long. I don't know how long it's
2:42going to be with the edit. like just to
2:43kind of clean it up. We're not we're not
2:44cutting any answers or questions out.
2:46We're just going to clean up the ums and
2:48a's and we had a couple technical issues
2:50with like audio and we had to go to, you
2:52know, bathroom breaks or whatever. It
2:54was a very long uh conversation, so you
2:56might see some cuts there, but nothing
2:58was removed from this episode. It's
3:00going to be played in its entirety
3:01because it deserves to be. She was a
3:03great interview and I think regardless
3:05of whether you believe her or not,
3:07you're going to you're going to get a
3:08lot out of the conversation. So, here's
3:10that interview. We're talking to Danell.
3:13Denell. And Denell is is Darly's
3:16halfsister. They share the same mother.
3:18And before we start getting into this
3:20because this is not a this is not an
3:22interrogation. We don't normally have
3:25guest on. I'd actually asked you if we
3:26could speak to Darly. You had told me
3:28that she's working with the legal team
3:30right now and they requested that she
3:31not do that. Completely understandable.
3:34But you and and someone you're familiar
3:36with reached out to me in on Instagram
3:39and ultimately we have no skin in the
3:41game when it comes to these cases. We're
3:42not we're not the prosecution. We're not
3:44law enforcement. The the case is what it
3:46is. We just like to talk about it and
3:48develop our own opinions. And that's all
3:51they really are is opinions. So I just
3:53wanted to set the table here and say
3:54we're going to have this conversation.
3:56We're having you on because as I said to
3:58you on the phone, Denell and I did have
4:00a chance to speak before this. We wanted
4:01to make sure we weren't going to attack
4:03her or anything like that. And we didn't
4:05talk too much about the case, but I
4:07basically said, "Listen, we've developed
4:09our opinions. We've gone over the
4:11information based on what we have. This
4:13is what we feel. I don't want to give
4:14you any misconceptions about where we
4:16are right now." That's and I was
4:18transparent with you. Yes. But I said,
4:20"I'm always open to hearing a different
4:22side of things. And I reserve the right
4:24to change my opinion if I if I'm
4:26presented with new information. But it's
4:28not just about me and it's not just
4:29about Stephanie. It's about the hundreds
4:31of thousands of people who are going to
4:33listen and watch this. And based on our
4:36comments, a lot of them believe that
4:38your sister is guilty as well. And so I
4:41think this is an opportunity for you to
4:43kind of give your side of it or Darly's
4:45side of it, maybe things they haven't
4:46heard before, not because we feel that
4:49you're right, but because we want to
4:51make sure all sides are presented
4:52accurately and people can develop their
4:55own opinion uh based on that. That's all
4:57you can really ask for. Yeah, it it is
5:00easy to believe what was created in this
5:04case because of the amount of media
5:06coverage that really saturated every
5:09form of media. You know, social media
5:11wasn't really a thing back then. It was
5:13the 5:00 news and the breaking news and
5:16every newspaper, all of that um really
5:19was saturated pretty heavy with
5:21negativity about our family and about
5:23Darly. And the the picture that was
5:26painted of Darly was not my sister. Like
5:29it was as far from Darly as I can even
5:33put into words. It would be the
5:36equivalent of somebody that you love and
5:39trust and believe with your heart 100%
5:44is being tore down and made to look like
5:47this evil villain, which is exactly what
5:49they needed to do in order to get the
5:52conviction that they wanted. and they
5:54did a really good job at that. I mean,
5:55Greg Davis was a a mastermind. He
5:58definitely laid it out really thick
6:00about all of the negativity that he
6:03could associate with Darly. And I think
6:05that there was some stuff leaked um
6:07purposely from the police department. We
6:09did see a fax that was sent over to the
6:12Dallas Morning News that came directly
6:14from the police um phone number, fax
6:16phone number that they had. So there was
6:19stuff that was being leaked in a very
6:21purposeful way to make Darly look and
6:24sound like she was this evil person. And
6:27it was that what they created to tell
6:31about Darly was created based on
6:34complete fabrications and people that
6:36didn't know Darly. Greg Davis never
6:38spoke with anybody that knew Darly on a
6:40personal level outside of maybe Baja
6:42Joel which was one of her very good
6:45friends, one of Darren's co-workers. I
6:47want to say something because you bring
6:48up a a good point and and even the
6:50direction you're going here and I think
6:51I I said this to you on the phone a
6:53little bit, but we have to all remember
6:54and I'm talking to the audience here.
6:56You're you're not in prison for killing
6:58your children. You are a sister
7:01defending her sister, someone that you
7:03grew up with, someone that you love
7:04dearly. And I can respect that and I
7:07think most people can relate to that and
7:09would probably do the same thing. But
7:11you do seem like a rational person or I
7:13wouldn't have you on. kind of wanted to
7:14speak to you too. And we're going to get
7:17into all the things. Just so all you
7:19guys know, Dell sent me a 28page
7:23uh
7:24she said this is some light reading and
7:26this is basically their entire defense
7:28or a lot of their arguments for it, but
7:30I don't who who wrote this? This wasn't
7:32you. This is somebody else. Correct.
7:33Which one are you referring to? There
7:35was I sent you two documents. the points
7:37of innocence, which kind of broke it
7:38down. That was created by myself and
7:41several of my friends that we just kind
7:44of bounced things off of each other.
7:45Anna Sullivan and a few of my other
7:48friends, um, Diana and Kathy Ramsey,
7:50they helped contribute all of this
7:52really important information, kind of
7:54organized it really well and laid it
7:56out. and I added in what I felt, you
7:59know, from my perspective really needed
8:00to be added in there, like the personal
8:03things. But that is not a comprehensive
8:06overview of everything. There's a lot
8:08more that we could probably elaborate
8:10on. It's a good start though because I
8:12read it and I think it it allowed me so
8:14and I only bring this up because I wrote
8:16notes to a lot of what you said. I I
8:18researched it. had my researchers
8:19research it and I wanted to make sure I
8:21had some some information to talk about
8:24with you because you were talking about
8:25some things that we didn't maybe address
8:27on the show. Yeah. And the reason I was
8:29saying as far as you defending your
8:30sisters, I I think we can at least start
8:33from this point. If we can start from
8:34this point, we can go any direction with
8:36this conversation. But I just want to
8:38make sure that we're all being honest
8:39with each other. And the reality is
8:41Stephanie and I do not know what
8:43happened inside that house because we
8:45weren't we're not there. Do you agree
8:48that you also were not there? And so
8:50there is a chance you could be wrong. As
8:52much as you love Darly, you could be
8:54wrong. So that that really would fall in
8:59probability versus plausibility.
9:02Anything is possible under the sun. Like
9:05if I have two hands, then this could
9:07have been done by me. It doesn't make
9:09sense the way the state laid it out for
9:11Darly um to have completed these tasks
9:14in the way that she completed these
9:15tasks. It doesn't match their theory at
9:20all. None of the evidence does. And well
9:23well let's talk about it then. Let's
9:24let's get into it. Wherever you want to
9:26start, there's a lot here. I could ask
9:28you specific questions, but I don't want
9:30this to come off as an interview or an
9:31interrogation. If there's certain things
9:33that you want to talk about, you talked
9:35about some of it on the phone. I'm going
9:36to give you the floor and I'm not really
9:38going to interrupt. Stephanie is kind of
9:40letting me drive this conversation
9:41because she was basically telling me the
9:43information. So, we felt it would be
9:45good for now you to tell me the
9:47information the same way she would.
9:48Sure. And I think that's the fair shake
9:50we can give you. I think that's fair.
9:52Let me just start out by saying I have
9:53nothing written to read from. I don't
9:55have a script devised. Neither do I.
9:57These are my notes. These are my notes
9:58that I typed up. Okay. So if I come
10:00through some information that you feel
10:02is questionable or if you had questions
10:04about it or Stephanie if you have
10:05questions about it please interrupt me
10:07so that I can clarify as best I can.
10:09Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course. So
10:11they start out this whole debacle with
10:14creating a persona of a person that is
10:17this greedy evil person that disliked
10:20being a mother and was inconvenienced by
10:23the existence of her children and didn't
10:25want anything to do with her children.
10:27But it was quite the opposite. Darly
10:30lived, breathed, ate, functioned in
10:33every capacity for her children and was
10:37absolutely the best mother that I had
10:39ever met and probably still to this
10:42point remains one of the top mother
10:44figures in my life. She included her
10:47children in everything she did. She kind
10:50of worked her whole day around her
10:52children. if she was somebody that
10:54didn't want to spend time with her
10:55children, she would have sent them off
10:57to daycare the the minute summer was
10:59called, you know, that they they would
11:01have been enrolled in a daycare and
11:03Darly would have been doing whatever it
11:04is that they thought Darly would have
11:06been doing. But instead, Darly stayed
11:09home with the boys and with Drake and
11:12provided them with as much entertainment
11:14as she could. The day before all this
11:16happened, June 5th, 1996,
11:19Darren's car was broke down and had been
11:23parked at a dealership in their parking
11:25lot. The dealership owner had called
11:27Darly and was kind of pissy with her
11:30about, you know, this car doesn't need
11:31to be here. We I need it off my lot. He
11:34was really kind of hateful about it. And
11:36Darly was kind of caught off guard.
11:38Well, you know, I can't really do
11:39anything about it. I don't know what to
11:41tell you. We'll see what we can do. And
11:44so the car stayed there at least through
11:46another night. That meaning Darren's car
11:50was not at the house. Darly's car was
11:53the car that they were using at the time
11:55and he was taking it back back and forth
11:57to work, which meant Darly was stuck at
11:58home with three kids and couldn't really
12:01do the fun things that she wanted to do.
12:03It wasn't a big deal. Darly just wanted
12:05Darren to kind of get on it and get his
12:07car fixed so that she could take the
12:09boys and do fun things. Any mother would
12:12understand that. So that conversation
12:15happened. Darren and Dana come home from
12:17work. Dana had not been staying there at
12:19her house. A couple months prior, she
12:22was staying with Darly, but Dana, my
12:24other sister, and her boyfriend fiance
12:27had gotten an apartment. And Dana was
12:29staying at her apartment every night.
12:31There's Okay. So, she wasn't staying
12:33because that was a question we had. She
12:34was not there the night before. She was
12:36not staying there overnight. She would
12:39come home with Darren because she didn't
12:41have a vehicle at the time. So Darren
12:43would bring her home and they would eat
12:45dinner or you know whatever and then
12:47Dana or Darren or Darly would drive her
12:50back to her house or her fiance would
12:52swing by and pick her up. Was Dana also
12:54a halfsister? Yes, Dana and I share both
12:57mother and father. So she's Darly's
12:59halfsister. But yeah, we were trying to
13:01do the family tree on the episode if you
13:03heard. We were struggling with that one.
13:05It is a little um it's a spiderweb but
13:08you know family family family dynamics
13:10are never simple right. Exactly. And so
13:12many of you have d names. Yes. Yes.
13:14That's that also has not been great for
13:16the storytelling. I know. I know there
13:17we catch a lot of flack for that. But
13:19you got to remember that was so long ago
13:21when people were being named D names. It
13:24wasn't I don't think it intentionally
13:26started as everybody's going to have
13:28D's. But when my mom married and started
13:31having children, she realized there's a
13:34pattern here. So, it just kind of kept
13:36going. And I I actually was named after
13:39my dad's uncle who died from hemophilia.
13:42So, it was a meaningful name. It wasn't
13:45just a D name. It was a meaningful name.
13:47Dana's name just kind of came out of
13:50nowhere. It was just a name they liked.
13:51So, it just kind of lined up that way.
13:53Darren and his siblings had D names,
13:56too. And then Darren's brother married a
13:57woman. Also, ironically, not related.
14:00That had nothing he wasn't seeking out a
14:03Dana, but he Dion did marry a Dana. And
14:07Seralda and Lenny, who are de Darren's
14:09parents, had a Darren and a Dion and
14:12then an Arenda. So, it wasn't all D
14:15names. It just I mean, it sounds crazy,
14:18but it is what it is. It just that's
14:20just how the cards fell. I listen, I
14:21don't mind D names. I mean, add me to
14:24the list. It it made putting it all
14:26together though difficult because
14:27everyone tricky. Yeah. Especially with
14:29two Dana being involved. That does make
14:31it a little a little sticky. Yes. But
14:33I'm glad you brought that up though cuz
14:35we were we didn't know about that. Dana,
14:37your sister. Yes. She and her fianceé
14:40just got an apartment. So now she's kind
14:42of hanging out with Darly during the day
14:45maybe to help her with the kids. She
14:48worked for Darren so that was her source
14:50of income. So she was at and then she
14:52would come home with him for dinner and
14:54then he would bring her home at night.
14:56Either Darren would drive her home,
14:57Darly would drive her home, or Dana's
14:59fiance would swing by and pick her up.
15:01It just kind of, you know, however they
15:02could line it up. I'm pretty sure, I
15:04can't remember 100%, but I think that
15:06Dana's fiance worked like an evening
15:08shift, so if he got off in time, he'd
15:11swing by and pick her up or Darren or
15:13Darly would drive her home. It wasn't
15:15Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. And also,
15:17I want to mention that um the $5,000
15:20loan that was denied, that was mentioned
15:21during the trial, they even pulled a a
15:24banker to come speak about it, that was
15:27not for a vacation. Their vacations were
15:29paid for. Their plane tickets were paid
15:30for. We actually used their plane
15:33tickets that were already bought for the
15:35boys to fly in my mom's sister and her
15:39family. So, those tickets were already
15:41paid for. It wasn't a loan to pay for a
15:45vacation like it said. And it did say
15:47that on the loan paperwork, but that's
15:50because they don't typically give you a
15:52loan to buy your sister a car. And the
15:55goal was to get Dana her own vehicle so
15:58that she didn't have to rely on Darly
16:00and Darren to drive back and forth to
16:02work. So, it benefited Darly and Darren
16:04and it would have benefited Dana. It was
16:05$5,000. She could have paid that or he
16:08could have taken it directly out of her
16:09paycheck. It was kind of a, you know, an
16:11easy option. The next week, my mom went
16:14and got a loan and Dana ended up having
16:15a vehicle after that fact. So, so the
16:18$5,000 was to buy Dana a car. Correct.
16:21Correct. But they didn't. Darren already
16:24had line of credit established and
16:26opened and he wrote down on the um loan
16:30option that it was for vacation. And I
16:34don't know really exactly why he used
16:36that for the loan option, but that's
16:39what he he used thinking that they would
16:41probably approve that faster than they
16:43would approve buying somebody else a
16:46vehicle since then you don't have
16:48possession of the vehicle. It probably
16:49would have been denied anyways. No, it
16:51makes sense. I mean, listen, what we're
16:53talking a lot about right now is
16:55possible motive or the defense of the
16:58motive, right? And for me, always as an
17:00investigator, yeah, I'm always concerned
17:02with the why. We want to know the why,
17:03especially when you're trying to tell a
17:04story at trial. I think it's more
17:07important for the prosecutors than it is
17:09for the investigators. Yeah, we want to
17:11try to understand it, but really we
17:12should be focusing on the evidence
17:14itself. And if Darly did this, right? To
17:17me, there is no rational motive. There
17:19is no explanation, right? There wouldn't
17:21be. What could how could you rationalize
17:23the irrational? So, I would like to
17:25focus, if you're cool with it, Yeah. on
17:27there's a lot of points in here that you
17:28guys made. Like you said, we can't go
17:29over all of it. I'm not going to hold
17:31you to everything. Like you said, you
17:33don't have any notes in front of you,
17:34but there were a couple things we
17:35discussed on the phone that were
17:37interesting and I wanted to make sure we
17:38talked about them here and they're more
17:40about the evidence because at the end of
17:42the day, it comes down to the evidence
17:44and you said already the evidence
17:46doesn't align so I can kind of cue you
17:48up to some of the things you said and
17:50then you can elaborate on it. I'm I
17:52don't want you and if you're if you need
17:53a second to look up notes or whatever,
17:55we have no issue with that. But I'll
17:57throw it at you. three points that I
17:59have that I really want to make sure we
18:00cover. And if there's something else
18:02that jogs your memory and you're like,
18:03"Oh, I want to talk about this piece of
18:05evidence as well," I'm open to it. I
18:07probably have notes on it. Yeah. So, you
18:09cool with that? Yes. Sounds good. Okay.
18:11So, the first thing I want to talk
18:13about, which is a big comp point of
18:15contention for me, is Darly's wounds
18:18compared to Damon and De uh Devon.
18:20because you have here and I'm just going
18:22to read I basically wrote down exactly
18:24what you guys said and you can elaborate
18:25on it. But what I have here is many
18:28people like to claim the wounds were
18:30different from the boys. However, Dr.
18:32Dwan definitely calls them stab wounds.
18:35The same verbiage he uses when referring
18:38to Damon's wounds. That is correct. They
18:40were stab wounds. It's really hard to
18:44express to people exactly how dangerous
18:47her wounds were because she survived.
18:49And if she had not survived, this would
18:52be a Darren Route trial and we would
18:55probably be mourning that he was
18:56executed by the state of Texas because
18:58that's where this would have ended up.
19:00Um, her wounds were the definition of a
19:03deep wound in her neck. they consider it
19:07and just for reference back backstory so
19:10everybody understands I'm a registered
19:12nurse and I have really dug into all of
19:17the medical side of it. I've dug into
19:19the entire case because I'm not going to
19:21put my name behind something that I
19:23can't verify and I have probably been
19:25more skeptical than anybody on this
19:27entire earth in regards to this case.
19:29It's my life. So, with Darly's wounds,
19:33um, they very specifically say that the
19:37incision on her neck or the stab wound
19:39is what it's called in all of the
19:41medical records, that was actually
19:44through the platismous muscle, which is
19:46a very thin muscle that goes across your
19:47neck, kind of helps to with the control
19:49of your neck. It covers a lot of very
19:51important vital organs that or vital
19:54structures that without we would die or
19:58have no function. It did actually
20:01dissect through that platismous muscle.
20:03That is the definition of a deep wound.
20:06If the platismous muscle is breached, it
20:09makes it a deep wound to the neck. It
20:12was breached. They sewed it back
20:14together. It wasn't just nicked. They
20:16had to sew it back together. That's
20:18significant in itself. Also significant
20:21is the fact that there was a defect
20:23noted to the corroted sheath. So that
20:25croted sheath is about 2 millimeters
20:27thick and that's what covers your
20:29jugular vein, your croted artery, some
20:32bundles of nerves, and that was that was
20:35actually it had a defect in it per those
20:38surgeons. And really those are the only
20:40people that saw her wounds prior to them
20:43being patched back up. That that in
20:46itself is also very significant. Had
20:48Darly had not been wearing that
20:51necklace, it's very likely that um it
20:53would have gone that additional two
20:55millimeters and she would have bled to
20:58death before the 911 call was over. That
21:00was of the neck. And it was also done in
21:03a way that she would have had to have
21:05used her less dominant hand to cut her
21:07neck. Let's see. She's right-handed. So,
21:09right-handed, she would have had to
21:11stabbed her neck and pulled down and
21:13then stabbed or continued that same
21:16incision slash slash whatever we want to
21:19call it down and then stabbed herself
21:21right in the right here in the neck. Um,
21:24right the chest wall. So, that didn't
21:27this did not puncture a lung just by
21:31luck I suppose. Um, and then the one on
21:34her arm was on her right arm. So, she's
21:37right-handed. So then she switches the
21:39knife and stabs herself in the top of
21:41the arm. It just doesn't really make a
21:43lot of sense. This one here goes to the
21:45bone and it they were able to feel the
21:48bone at the end. I mean that's not super
21:50deep, but it was stopped by a bone. So
21:52it couldn't have gone deeper because it
21:54did hit that bone. So the wounds that
21:57Darly received were definitely stab
22:02wounds. They were inflicted by a knife.
22:04They definitely line up with the same
22:06murder weapon that was used on the boys.
22:09There's the only difference is the fact
22:12that you have a a 30 or 40 lb boy versus
22:16a 130lb woman. And it is my belief that
22:21Devon was probably asleep when he was
22:23attacked. I think that he was stepped
22:25on. Um his hand had some bruising on it
22:27and his ear had some bruising on it. So
22:30potentially could have been kicked or
22:31stepped on and that's what created this
22:35storm that unfolded. The fact that Devon
22:40was awoken with these wounds or you know
22:43he was sleeping when he was attacked and
22:45I do feel like Damon was the same way.
22:47His his wounds were on his back and he
22:50was most likely sleeping when he woke
22:51up. Neither of them really had defensive
22:54wounds other than Devon did have some
22:56nicks to the back of his arm. He also
22:58had kind of a blunt I don't remember
23:00exactly what they call it. There's like
23:02a puncture wound to the back of his
23:04thigh. And that is never really
23:08explained by anybody. We don't know
23:10where it came from or how it got there.
23:12Doesn't look like it's from a
23:14double-edged um instrument. Um it looks
23:18more like maybe a screwdriver or
23:20something of that nature, which could be
23:23important. Yeah. So, I have a lot to say
23:25about this and Stephanie, I hope you'll
23:27allow me to kind of go into it all. And
23:29this could we could spend an hour just
23:30talking about this because to me, this
23:32is a big this is a critical part of this
23:34case. Let me first say what how I'm
23:37coming to this conclusion for a couple
23:38reasons. Not only the story, but your
23:41friend or researcher, someone who works
23:42in the investigative field, I think the
23:44PI maybe has been DMing me as well, like
23:46with you as well. I'm not going to say
23:47her name. I don't know if she wants her
23:49name out there, but fortunately,
23:51unfortunately, however you want to call
23:53it, she sent me a Google doc of photos
23:56of the boys that are not publicly
23:57available. They are all publicly
23:59available. The ones that I saw, I've
24:01never seen them online. Every picture
24:04that's unbelievable. Unfortunately, they
24:05are all out there and I hope I hope they
24:08Well, the fact that I didn't see them
24:09online is a good thing because that
24:10means they're not at the not at the top
24:12of the page. But the photos that I saw
24:14were them after the fact cleaned up a
24:17little bit. you can clearly see the
24:18wounds. Once I got the doc, I had, you
24:20know, she apologized even after cuz I
24:21wasn't expecting to open it and find
24:23that it was about 2:00 in the morning
24:25and it was an an unsuspected surprise.
24:27But that being said, I once I see it, I
24:29got to see it and I got to look through
24:30it and you got to put emotions aside and
24:32just kind of go through it. And I did.
24:33So, there's a couple things I want to
24:35mention first and this was from the
24:38trial transcripts and affidavit and
24:40things that I I was able to find. And I
24:42just want to mention for our listeners
24:43and viewers, I'm not debating you on
24:45this. Dr. Dwan did say at at testified
24:48at trial, he referred to the cut as a
24:50slash. He did. In trial, he referred to
24:52it as a slash. He went on to testify
24:55that the wounds were superficial,
24:56meaning the stab quote did not penetrate
24:59any of the deeper structures. Now,
25:01you're a nurse. I'm not disputing what
25:03you can get back at me on that. Just let
25:05me go through this and then just hit me
25:07with it. So, that was that. But that's
25:09not even really what I'm focused on. The
25:10things that I'm focused on is not the
25:12significance of the wounds themselves.
25:15Okay, we I think a lot of this is
25:17interpretation of the wounds and we can
25:19get lost in the weeds on that. To me,
25:21what's really important is when I looked
25:24at those photos and I looked at the
25:26intent behind those stab wounds, behind
25:29those puncture marks on those two little
25:31boys and compared them to Darly's, they
25:34are different. They are very different.
25:37One is direct multiple times direct in
25:40the back chest. I'm there's no doubt as
25:43a nurse you know what that person was
25:45intending to do and yet with Darly's
25:48wounds let's even say for the sake of
25:49this conversation that I concede they
25:51are stab wounds right let's just call
25:53them stab wounds they are still
25:55different and they are not going into
25:56the heart they are not going into the
25:58back they are not going into the chest
26:00they could have plunged that knife
26:01directly into her she was sleeping she
26:03wasn't moving and yet they're different
26:06and then the final thing that I want to
26:07say because you put it on here as well
26:10you talked about the different hands
26:13being used, the different, you know, the
26:14dominant arms being used, different with
26:16the boys, different with Darly. Here's
26:19my issue with that. First and foremost,
26:21I think it's not unreasonable to assume
26:22that if Darly did this and she cut
26:24herself, she may have used her
26:26non-dominant hand and then switched to
26:27to create the the impression that it was
26:30someone else. I think that's that's not
26:32even a detective's perspective. That's
26:34just common sense. Someone trying to
26:35throw off investigators could do
26:37something different. But here's the
26:38bigger issue. If the wounds are not
26:41consistent, meaning the wounds for Damon
26:44and Devon verse Darly, the bigger issue
26:46for me is that would indicate that there
26:49were two killers. One person was
26:51stabbing Darly. One person was stabbing
26:54Damon and Devon. But per your sister's
26:56own words. there was only one attacker,
27:00which creates a major issue because if
27:02we're to believe what you're saying that
27:03the wounds are different from different
27:05dominant arms, then that would have to
27:07mean two different people, two different
27:09attackers carrying out these offenses.
27:11And yet, Darly said right out that it
27:13was only one man that she saw. So, I
27:15will say that Darly has never said that
27:20it is absolute fact and that she knows
27:22for certain that there was only one
27:24intruder. She says she sees one leaving.
27:28She also doesn't say that she was she's
27:30she's not
27:33claiming that she was in a in a dead
27:35sleep and was awoken by this. She comes
27:38to and we think that it's more of a
27:41gaining consciousness versus waking up
27:44from asleep. I I definitely don't think
27:46that she slept through a full force um
27:50struggle with an intruder. And based on
27:53her injuries, there's definitely a
27:54struggle going on. Can we pause there
27:56for a second? Yeah. Cuz I watched the
27:58last offense. I watched the whole thing
28:00because you guys were recommending her.
28:02Somebody was. And I watched Darly's own
28:04words and I wrote it down and she said
28:06that she woke up to her son Damon
28:08saying, "Mama, mama." That's what woke
28:10her up. Let me ask you a question. as a
28:12nurse, any injuries that she sustained,
28:15the arm, the bruising, the slash. How do
28:18you not wake up from one of those
28:20injuries, but you wake up from your
28:22little boy tapping you saying, "Mama,
28:24mama." Again, I think it was a coming to
28:27more of a a regaining consciousness. I
28:30don't think that it was waking up, but
28:32he was already walking away according to
28:34her. Yes, absolutely. So, the So, the
28:36attack already happened. Exactly. We
28:38know that. She was attacked, didn't wake
28:40up, but then woke up from her son. She
28:43has no memory of a struggle with the
28:45intruder. She has no memory of that. Can
28:48you at least acknowledge how that's a
28:49struggle for me? Well, sure. I get it.
28:50But you guys both say yourself in some
28:53of your earlier podcasts that your brain
28:56protects you from certain things. And I
28:58have unfortunately because of this case,
29:01I have been a true crime researcher
29:04since it really all kind of unfolded.
29:06And I can tell you that it is not
29:09uncommon for somebody that is attacked
29:12to one, not feel those attacks, not know
29:15that they were just cut, and two, be
29:19able to lose certain bits of that
29:21memory. Like you can be attacked and
29:24have no idea that you were ever stabbed
29:26and follow through with the rest of what
29:28you were, you know, trying to do or what
29:29you think is most important at that
29:31exact moment and you don't even know
29:33that you've been stabbed or hurt. that
29:36does happen and that is very plausible.
29:38I hear you and we don't have to keep
29:40going back and forth on it. I think it's
29:41one of those things where people are
29:42going to have to decide. Sure. The
29:44problem for me is she woke up. She
29:46didn't wake up from any of the injuries
29:48that were she sustained, but she woke up
29:50from a light padding from her son, which
29:52to me is contradictory of that of that
29:54meth that ideology that you're
29:55presenting. If she didn't wake up for
29:57the cuts, why did she wake up for the
29:59kids? Again, we don't know that she we
30:01don't know the order of the events. We
30:03don't know that she wasn't actually
30:06physically awake. She just hasn't she
30:08doesn't have memory of it. So, it's very
30:11much that, you know, that blank area. We
30:13can't fill in the details because we
30:15don't know. And if Darly was really
30:18trying to lay out this fabricated story,
30:21don't you think she would know every
30:23single detail to create a very plausible
30:27explanation for all this stuff instead
30:29of all these unknowns? If you're asking
30:31my honest opinion, and Stephanie, I want
30:32you to weigh in here because I feel like
30:33it, you know, whatever. But I feel like
30:35in my professional experience, when
30:38offenders learn about the evidence that
30:40detectives have after the fact, they
30:42change their stories to fit that. They
30:44try to give as little as possible at
30:45first and then they will add on to that
30:47as time progresses, when they start to
30:49realize the direction law enforcement is
30:51going. That's my own anecdotal
30:53experience. So, I feel like in the
30:55beginning, offenders always start with
30:57as minimal amount of information as
30:58possible because the less you say, the
31:01less that can be cross-referenced with
31:03evidence. And that's just more a vague
31:05understanding of it, not specifically in
31:07any case. So, Stephanie, anything you
31:10want to add in there, cuz I know,
31:12listen, you were telling me the story.
31:13You know more about this case than I do.
31:15This is just what I had looked into. I
31:17know that there's some speculation, I
31:18don't know out there, you know, of
31:20supporters and I don't know if you feel
31:22this way or how your camp feels, but is
31:23there any speculation or belief that
31:25Darly was drugged under the influence of
31:27something that evening and that's why
31:29she was maybe slow to wake up like the
31:31effects of this thing were wearing off
31:33by the time her son kind of nudged her
31:36and that's why she was able to wake up
31:37from that and maybe not um during the
31:40attack. Is there speculation of that
31:42from from your side? Again, it's
31:45possible for sure. like there's that,
31:47you know, probable versus possible. I um
31:50do know that one of our team members
31:53that defended Darly Lloyd Herald felt
31:56like it was very possible that she was
31:58drugged in some form or fashion.
32:00Apparently, you can make chloroform with
32:02like stuff you find under your kitchen
32:04sink. I wasn't aware of that, but
32:07chloroform is also not found in your
32:09bloodstream. You have to have a very
32:11specific test for that. And I don't
32:14think that that was even thought of. And
32:17I don't know how long it stays in your
32:19system either. Was there blood taken at
32:21the hospital? Yes, they did. They did
32:23run a full um panel and the only thing
32:26that came back was she was on the diet
32:28pills which was showed up as like
32:30amphetamine I believe. Um but she had a
32:34prescription adapex
32:37and then she was prescribed that from a
32:39doctor. Yes. Yes, she wasn't on any
32:40anti-depressants, um, anti-anxiety
32:43medicine, nothing. Okay. So, you also
32:46remember that back in 1990, postpartum
32:48depression wasn't really talked about.
32:50Nobody really knew about it. Like, we
32:52didn't warn our patients that you may
32:54feel down the next 6 weeks. Like, that
32:56wasn't something that was publicly
32:58talked about at all. And do I think that
33:01Darly had some moments where she had
33:04some maybe mild postpartum depression?
33:06Sure, she said she felt down, but
33:09there's nothing ever anywhere that
33:11supports a postpartum psychosis. And
33:14that's not just a flip the switch, one
33:16day I have psychosis, turn it back off,
33:18I'm fine. That's a very, very specific
33:21disease process. And it is a disease
33:23that takes over and you cannot control
33:25it. So to think that it could have been
33:29mental health um related or driven is
33:32really not possible for me at all.
33:34There's no history of mental health
33:37issues in Darly's past. She was never
33:39diagnosed with anything. If you look at
33:41the I think it's the Edinburg scale is
33:43what we use to determine if you have
33:45postpartum depression. And she doesn't
33:47really fit it except maybe some very
33:50mild postpartum depression that was
33:52short-lived. And it really did seem to
33:54be resolved after she had her cycle and
33:57kind of leveled out. But it outside of
34:01that there's there's nothing to support
34:03a mental health break. You don't just
34:05break and then unbreak. It's like you
34:09stay broken. Once you have that mental
34:10break, you stay mentally broken.
34:14[Applause]
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36:30I mean, I also do want to point out that
36:32having postpartum depression, hundreds
36:34of thousands of women have postpartum
36:36depression every year. They are not
36:38doing this to their kids. Even if she
36:39did have postpartum depression, it's
36:40nothing to be ashamed of. It's nothing
36:42to immediately assume that it would make
36:44her violent towards her children. I've
36:46had postpartum depression. It's very,
36:48very common and difficult. when she was
36:51depressed um in the months before her
36:54sons died. Um what was her main issues?
36:58Like what was the thing or what were the
37:00things that were sort of driving that
37:01depression? Was it hormonal and she kind
37:03of just felt off and she really didn't
37:05know why or was it a specific trigger?
37:07Like were um you know relationship
37:10issues, money issues, just stress from
37:13being a young mother to three young
37:15children, the the normal pressures that
37:17you kind of just feel overwhelmed. I
37:19mean, I feel I feel that every day, so I
37:21get it.
37:23Trust me, what adulting is hard?
37:26Adulting is really, you know, when
37:28you're self-employed and your entire
37:30family's income is dependent on that, it
37:34is kind of a lot of pressure. Yeah, it
37:36is a lot of pressure. And you have
37:37children that want to do fun things and
37:39you want to do fun things with your
37:41children and for your children. And so,
37:43of course, there's going to be some
37:45stress related just to being
37:47self-employed, but in in reality, they
37:51were not in dire straits. They were 26
37:54and 27 years old. So, they were doing
37:56damn good for that age. And Darren did
37:59have over $2,500 in his business account
38:04that day. That day. And then two days
38:07later, he had a deposit that put him at
38:09seven grand in his account. two days
38:12later. So, there was money coming in and
38:15in Darly's note or in her first written
38:18statement, which does not happen until
38:20two days later, she does mention that
38:22they were talking about they were
38:24excited because business was picking
38:26back up and they had these trips coming
38:28up and they had all of these things they
38:30had planned. And you don't make plans
38:34for a child you plan to kill. And she
38:36had already made these plans. So that
38:40really doesn't support it either. I I
38:43mean, like you said, there is stress
38:45associated with just being an adult and
38:47paying bills and doing all those things,
38:49but none of it ever got to the level
38:52where anybody could have been concerned
38:57or knowingly seen any type of
38:59depression. She still woke up every day.
39:01She still fixed her hair every day. She
39:03still wore makeup. She still took care
39:04of her kids. She cooked dinner. She all
39:06of those things. she still did all of
39:08the normal things. So, I I want to
39:10address two things really quickly. And
39:12before I do, I want to say this is I'm
39:15This is not personal towards you. I have
39:17a sister. She is seven years younger
39:19than me. She's my best friend. I could
39:21never, even if there was every point of
39:23evidence saying that she had done
39:25something in my head, in my heart,
39:27knowing her, having grown up with her, I
39:29would still say absolutely not. And I
39:31would defend her until my my last
39:33breath. I completely understand and I I
39:36think you're you're so intelligent.
39:37You're so well spoken. You clearly know
39:39so much about this case and you know
39:41something that is I think even more
39:43important. The dynamics of Darly,
39:45Darren, her family, what things were
39:47like behind the scenes, which none of us
39:49could ever understand as clearly and
39:51accurately as you do. Um to to talk
39:53about the financial situation, yes, I do
39:55believe that Darren had that $2,500.
39:57There was more money coming in. But you
39:59do have to admit based on the life that
40:01they were living, right? Based on the
40:04mortgage and the car payments and and
40:07everything that they had going out, what
40:09they had coming in was not was not
40:12adequate for what they had going out.
40:14You know, I I can't really agree with
40:16you on that only because there wasn't
40:20Darly's car was paid off so that she
40:22didn't have a car payment. She had
40:25invested in the cats. She had a mom and
40:27a dad cat and they planned on having
40:29kittens. They did have a litter. That
40:31was a business venture. So, that was an
40:34investment. The boat was also an
40:37investment. They were planning on doing
40:38a business called Champagne Dreams where
40:40they take couples out on like a sunset
40:43dinner. You have champagne and some kind
40:45of nice dinner, something to eat, maybe
40:47a dessert. Um, all of those things were
40:50investments. And so there wasn't uh a
40:53huge and every Let me also just say
40:56Darly was a bargain shopper. She nothing
40:58was ever full price. Everything was
41:01always either used or from the pawn shop
41:03or um on clearance. And even to this
41:06day, she still is a clearance shopper.
41:08Her and I will, you know, have moments
41:10where we do some online shopping for my
41:13kids or something and she always wants
41:15to look at the clearance stuff. That's
41:16just who she was because she was raised
41:19kind of frugal. We were very like lower
41:22middle class and Darren was not um new
41:25money. He did have a a fairly
41:29wellestablished family. So he was not
41:31new money. Darly was more on the newer
41:34money side, but also did so much for
41:37everybody. That's kind of what took
41:40precedent was making sure everybody else
41:42had what they needed before she had what
41:45she needed. Kind of, you know, typical
41:47mom. So on that note, I think it's
41:49interesting. I've never heard about this
41:50this business plan with the boat and it
41:52sounds it sounds great. Honestly, I
41:54think it's a great name. Uh great idea.
41:57On that note, when we're trying to look
41:58around for motive for the people who who
42:00believe wholeheartedly that Darly did
42:02this and we're trying to figure out what
42:03would the motive be if you've got all of
42:05these business ventures coming up plus
42:07you know Darren runs his own business,
42:09Darly's working for that business like
42:11you said so many family members did too.
42:13So this business being successful is
42:15very important because you're taking
42:17care of a lot of people who are close to
42:18you who you care about and then you want
42:19to start this other business and then
42:20the cat breeding business as well which
42:23probably Darly kind of spearheaded that.
42:25Yeah. When you have all of these
42:27business ventures coming up and you want
42:28them to be successful,
42:30Darly
42:32would not have maybe necessarily been
42:34able to be as present of a a mother at
42:37home if all of these things are coming
42:39up. So once again, that kind of goes
42:40back to the motive of three kids, three
42:43young kids is a lot. Um, if you want to
42:46kind of push yourself, any any working
42:49parent, much less a working mother,
42:50knows when when people tell you, "Oh,
42:52you can have it all. You can run your
42:53own business and be a great mother, you
42:55can't. You just you can't you have to
42:57sacrifice somewhere." And maybe there
43:00was something in her head at that point
43:03which it was like I don't want to
43:05sacrifice building these businesses and
43:08creating more wealth and more
43:09opportunity for my family. I you know I
43:12I have to sort of find a way to lessen
43:15the load somewhere. I don't think that
43:19they were ever in a situation where you
43:22needed to lessen the load by killing two
43:25children. I think that they were very
43:27much in the same predicament, in the
43:30same situation as 90% of their
43:32neighborhood. I think that it was the
43:35American dream and they were just doing
43:37what everybody else was doing. I do not
43:40think that there is any documentation or
43:44anything that supports the fact that she
43:47had to kill her kids or not sustain her
43:49lifestyle. There there's nothing that
43:51supports that. It was all very
43:53sustainable. her lifestyle was very
43:55sustainable. This is where as
43:58investigators you can get caught up
43:59because we can sit around a table for
44:01three hours and talk about the why. Yep.
44:04And here's something that the all three
44:05of us can agree on. Whether it was
44:07Darly, whether it was someone else
44:09outside the house, there's going to be
44:11no rational explanation that any of us
44:14can come up with that would justify the
44:15killing of two little boys. Nope. So
44:18although it's important to talk about
44:20with this particular case, especially if
44:22you're trying to prove innocence, we
44:24really got to talk about the evidence
44:26because the why we're never going to be
44:28able to justify it. You're going to give
44:29your opinion of your sister. You know
44:30her better than us. We're it's your it's
44:33your perception. It's your experiences.
44:35We can't dispute that. Which is why just
44:38like in any case out there, it's about
44:39the evidence. The evidence that's
44:41already happened, the evidence that
44:42can't be altered. And yes, it's still
44:44open to interpretation, but it's a
44:46little bit more binary than the motive,
44:49the why. Personally, without going too
44:52much into it, I don't think it was
44:54financial in nature if she did do it. I
44:55think it was more a case of postpartum
44:57psychosis. I know you said you don't
44:59snap out of it right after. I could
45:01debate you on that. There are cases
45:03where that is the case, Lindsay Clancy
45:05being one of them. But I'm not here. She
45:07didn't. But here's the thing, though.
45:09She she didn't snap back out of it. She
45:12had a history of postpartum depression
45:16and even after the fact she had a
45:18history of mental illness. It but there
45:21were things that she did there were
45:23things that she did in the moment when
45:24she killed them that shows a rational
45:26person checking where he was text
45:28messages things of that nature. Again, I
45:31don't even want to go down that road
45:32because there's so much evidence in this
45:34case that we can talk about where we
45:36don't have to know the why. Yep.
45:38Regardless of the why, I just want to
45:40know who did it. Right. And as of right
45:42now, your sister, she's she's in prison
45:44for it. So that's what's important. So
45:47getting back to the evidence, and I am
45:48the evidence guy. That's what I'm
45:50focused on. You mentioned the glass.
45:52That's been a big point of contention.
45:54And in your proof of innocence document,
45:57there was some mention of the glass
45:59being there potentially being broken by
46:01a first responder, uh, a crime scene
46:04investigator, someone other than the
46:07offender or Darly. Correct. There is
46:09some thought that that could be the
46:12case. I What do you think? I personally
46:15don't think that it was an after the-act
46:17thing. I think that it lines up with
46:18both Darren and Darly's account of what
46:21happened that there was glass broken and
46:24then Darly comes to, you know, she hears
46:27it kind of subconsciously. Darren hears
46:29it upstairs kind of subconsciously while
46:31they're sleeping. You don't really know
46:33what's going on. So, you can't really
46:34anticipate, you know, what's fixing to
46:37happen. And then, you know, the this
46:40glass breaks, the intruder flees and
46:42leaves past the glass. Um, and then
46:45Darly comes to Damon's pressing on her
46:49shoulder. She says that kind of makes
46:50her more anxious. She she realizes
46:54something's going on. She sees this man
46:56fleeing through the house. Um, she gets
46:58up to follow him, sees that there's a
47:00knife on the floor, turns the light on,
47:03picks up the knife, realizes that she's
47:05bleeding herself, turns around, sees
47:08that there is blood. There's a blood
47:09trail from her, and there's blood by
47:11Devon, and she sees that Damon has some
47:13blood on him. Um, and then it just kind
47:15of all unfolds from there. The glass is
47:18super important because it was used to
47:23explain how she stage staged a scene.
47:27And in order for us to believe that she
47:30staged the scene, then she threw that
47:34glass where there is absolutely no
47:36castoff from her arm. like throwing that
47:39glass would have most likely left some
47:41high velocity castoff or uh much better
47:45castoff than what is seen. That low
47:48drops of blood in the kitchen would have
47:50definitely low velocity blood spatter.
47:52There wouldn't necessarily be a castoff.
47:54It would depend on how she threw it. If
47:55she used like two hands and it was low
47:57to the ground, you wouldn't have that
47:58striking motion like you'd have with a
48:00knife. But, you know, we Yes.
48:03potentially Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you.
48:04I'm with you. There is There is a way to
48:07create that. recreate that where there
48:08wouldn't be a castoff. But I'm I'm
48:09rolling with you. I will say this before
48:11you continue. I'm glad we're on the same
48:13page that the glass happened before uh
48:15first responders got there cuz I saw
48:17that I watched Darly. I watched Darren's
48:19statements in the last defense. They
48:21both can they both say right out that
48:23the glass broke when the offender was
48:25there, not first responders. So no, you
48:27can continue, but we're on the same
48:28page. Yes. So the I think the first
48:30responder thing is more leaning towards
48:33the pictures of that wine rack. There
48:35looks like there's a glass missing on
48:37the wine rack. And so some people
48:38speculate that maybe there was an
48:40additional glass that was broken on
48:42accident. And maybe that glass that was
48:45collected and found on the ground, maybe
48:47it came from that second piece of glass
48:49that was broken. I think that that is
48:52kind of neither here nor there. I think
48:55that what really is important about the
48:57glass is that James Cron himself says
49:00that there is no blood on this glass.
49:03yet the glasses on top of her bloody
49:06footprints.
49:07I don't know about you guys, but it I I
49:11researched that pretty heavily. And it
49:13takes about 60 minutes for a good solid
49:16blood drop to completely dry. And this
49:18piece of glass was potentially thrown
49:21and and landed right on top of this wet
49:24blood. There would be blood on this
49:26glass if she had staged the scene and
49:28thrown the glass. Now, Darly's Darly's
49:32whole thing is that she hears that glass
49:35break. She gets up, she follows it, and
49:37if you look on her wine rack, there is
49:40like a little section where there's a
49:42couple little cherry glasses and there's
49:44a little decanner that has ice in it,
49:47like an ice bucket. There was also a
49:49wine glass there. And that wine glass is
49:51what was broken. So, it didn't come from
49:53the top rack where that has the little
49:55hooks that holds it on. It came from
49:58that setup tray that had the two sherry
50:00glasses, wine glass, the ice bucket, the
50:03prawns to pick up your ice with. And
50:05there was also blood that was on top of
50:07that um ice bucket. So it could have
50:10fallen over, hitting that ice bucket.
50:12That piece of glass breaks and then it
50:14rolls off onto the ground. So there was
50:16not this exaggerated huge amount of of
50:20glass all over the floor. At that point,
50:23Jame Cron comes in, he does a walk
50:25through. He grabs that um wine rack and
50:28shakes it to see how sturdy it was. It
50:30was cast iron or you know, I mean, it
50:33wasn't like super lightweight, but it
50:35was not a heavy piece of furniture. He
50:37was able to shake it himself, which when
50:40you're shaking that it's very plausible
50:42that glass could have fallen off at that
50:44point. If you look at the glass and you
50:47expect for there to be blood there and
50:48there's not blood on that glass, then
50:50that absolutely leads you to believe
50:53that that glass was kicked there by
50:55somebody that was walking through the
50:57scene after the blood was dry already,
51:00which would have been at least an hour
51:02after the crime took place or after
51:04Darly stopped actively bleeding in the
51:06house. We have different perspectives on
51:08this, but but we're kind of talking
51:10about the same evidence and this comes
51:12down to just perspectives and opinions,
51:14right? For me, just from where I'm
51:16sitting, I hear from Darly that as she's
51:19coming to, the man is walking away and
51:22then she hears the glass break and she's
51:24following after him. And so I would
51:26assume that she's walking through the
51:28glass and she's bleeding at that point.
51:30She's already been injured. So I would
51:32expect to find blood on top of the
51:34glass. And yet, no glass in the house do
51:37you find blood on top of the glass,
51:39which is I think why a lot of people,
51:41including myself, believe that she cut
51:44herself and then to wake Darren up, she
51:47smashed the glass to get his attention,
51:49which would align with him coming
51:51downstairs and her being right there. I
51:53know you're not going to agree with me.
51:54I'm just telling you where I'm coming
51:56from. Yeah. And I've heard that before,
51:58but in in all reality, there is no blood
52:02on the glass. even the glass that's on
52:05the footprint. And so you can argue it
52:07either way. How do you explain the no
52:10blood on top of the glass though? Like
52:11no blood on glass anywhere. It's my
52:13opinion that that when that cup fell and
52:16hit that wine bucket shattered, most of
52:19that glass stayed on top of that top of
52:21that wine rack, you know, just right on
52:23top there. And then kind of pieces roll
52:26off and move off as the scene develops
52:29and as Darly's in and out of the
52:30kitchen. But the wine rack itself was
52:33kind of in the walkway. If he bumps it,
52:36it falls and it breaks. When you say he,
52:38you talk about the offender or crown.
52:39No, an intruder. The intruder. Okay.
52:41Yeah. So, if an intruder bumps into
52:43this, which let me also add, there was a
52:45green rug between the kitchen and the
52:48Roman room, which is the room where the
52:50assault took place. There was a a rug
52:52there, and it is a known thing at
52:56Darly's house that that rug kind of got
52:57in the way, and people would trip over
52:58it routinely. It was there because there
53:01was a stain kind of under the carpet and
53:03it kind of helped to buffer people from,
53:05you know, dirty feet onto white carpet.
53:07There was also a a clear runner there
53:10that kind of protected the carpet from
53:12all the in-n-out traffic and all that.
53:14White carpet was just really a hard hard
53:17thing to keep clean. Bad idea
53:18altogether. Not the best thing you want
53:20to do. Stephanie, I have more pieces of
53:22evidence I want to talk about. Anything
53:23you want to add to the glass
53:25conversation? No, I kind of want to talk
53:27about the fingerprint. Perfect. That was
53:29literally my next thing. Do you want to
53:31bring it up or do you want me to bring
53:32up what they said first? Yeah, you do
53:34that. Okay. So, fingerprint. Again, I
53:36wrote this down. It's kind of a synopsis
53:38of what you wrote. There's 28 pages, but
53:40I wrote the general, you know, idea and
53:42you can elaborate. But this is and then
53:43I'll I won't go into my point.
53:45Stephanie, I'll let you go first and
53:46then uh Dell, if you want to follow up,
53:49you can go and then I'll go. Um, the
53:51unidentified bloody fingerprint found on
53:53the coffee table, which to be completely
53:56transparent with our audience. We did
53:57talk a little bit about this on the
53:59phone, Dell, because it just happens.
54:02But I'm glad we did because it it really
54:03had me look into it. And so, I'll get to
54:05my stuff, but it you wrote here or
54:08someone wrote here, "Forensic analysis
54:10conclusively proved it does not match
54:13Darly or either of her sons. Three
54:16separate forensic experts, including one
54:19from the FBI, all agreed that it did it
54:22was not from anyone from the crime
54:24scene, which is what you also said to me
54:26on the phone. That's that's what I have
54:28here for her, Stephanie. But take it
54:30away. Was that a full print or was it a
54:33partial print? No, it is a partial
54:35print. Um, on the coffee table, there's
54:37also a print on the door leaving the
54:40garage or leaving the laundry room into
54:43the garage. So there was two
54:45fingerprints in blood that were
54:47unidentified. They are enough to
54:49compare. Cron said he needed like seven
54:52or eight points to compare them and
54:55these prints had at least 10 to 12
54:58points each print. He was able to say
55:01that they were not Darly's at the trial
55:03and he said that they must have been the
55:05boys. How or he said Devon specifically
55:08is what he said. James Kron was a
55:11fingerprint expert. I will give him
55:12that. That's pretty much all he was an
55:15expert at, but he was a fingerprint
55:17expert. Well, in fairness, because I saw
55:19that I just want to I wasn't going to
55:20bring this up, but he did work 21,000
55:22crime scenes. Four of thousand of them
55:24being death investigations. We got to
55:26give him a little bit more than just a
55:27fingerprint. I don't know. I don't know
55:29that we do because let me just say this,
55:32he's counting it as two and a half cases
55:36every single day his entire career is
55:38what it kind of boils down to. Well,
55:41because he consulted on a lot of them.
55:42He wasn't physically, but he was a
55:44civilian employee from the Dallas
55:46Sheriff's Department. Do you want me to
55:48go over his um for the audience real
55:49quick? I can I have it here cuz I pulled
55:51it up because listen, I call out bad cop
55:53work all the time. It's kind of my
55:54thing. So, I don't mind doing it because
55:56they give the good guys bad names. So,
55:58let me just run down what I have for him
56:00cuz I was like, "Hey, if she's saying
56:02something that's valid here, I'll call
56:03it out. I don't give a shit." So, this
56:05is what I have. He was a consultant in
56:07the field of crime scene search,
56:09fingerprints, and physical evidence. He
56:11was a certified Laton print examiner, as
56:14you said, and a certified senior crime
56:16scene analyst. He started as a civilian
56:18in law enforcement in 1958. He later
56:21became a sheriff's deputy who worked in
56:23the identification bureau. He then
56:25became a lieutenant, devoting the time
56:27uh his time to crime scene analysis. He
56:30worked over 21,000 crime scenes, more
56:32than 4,000 being death investigations.
56:35He has over 150 awards throughout his
56:38career and eventually became a professor
56:40as well. What do you go you go first uh
56:43Dell as far as just because that sounds
56:45pretty good to me. So you go first. It
56:47does. It it sounds like he is this this
56:50really Yeah. But when you write your own
56:54resume, you typically do toot your own
56:57horn any way you can. I feel attacked
56:59right now. I pump my We all pump our
57:01resume a little bit. Come on. Everybody
57:02does. you want, but this can be confir
57:04This can be confirmed though. You could
57:05you can confirm a lot of this. But what
57:07you can confirm and what is being said
57:11are don't always mean the same thing.
57:13Yes, he did have a certificate as a
57:16crime scene analyst, but that was based
57:19on a seminar he paid to go to. That was
57:22based on something that he purchased. He
57:24purchased this course. He attended this
57:27whatever it was seminar and then he got
57:30a certificate at the end of it. Wouldn't
57:32you say that shows initiative? Now they
57:34pay for all your uh your certifications.
57:36Well, and they may have paid for his,
57:38but that does not mean that he was
57:40wellversed in crime scene analysis. What
57:43would you consider well verssed? I would
57:45say that uh somebody that is actively
57:47involved in murder investigations,
57:50somebody that has seen it top to bottom,
57:52front to back. And I don't think that's
57:54where he was. He was the fingerprinter.
57:57He was the guy that took your
57:58fingerprints when you came in and out of
58:00jail. So any person or any case that he
58:03took a fingerprint on, he counted as
58:06part of his resume. So everybody that
58:09was booked in the sheriff's department,
58:10he counted as part of his repertoire.
58:13And it it was really misleading. And if
58:16you get a chance Yeah. Him and Doug
58:19Moulder were kind of buddies. And if you
58:21get a chance to read or listen to his
58:24cross-examination of Kron, I think it's
58:27pretty it's pretty well worded. it. He
58:30was the keeper of the prince. He was a
58:33consultant because he retired and him
58:35and and neighbors had kind of this
58:38working relationship where he came and
58:40did some fingerprint classes for the
58:42Rollet Police Department and I think
58:45that they just really thought he was
58:48more than what he really truly was. I
58:50think that he misrepresented himself as
58:54this well-versed really good crime scene
58:57investigator and basically he had some
59:00on the job training for taking
59:02photographs at a crime scene and he was
59:05well certified in fingerprint
59:07identification and I'm sure he was a
59:09wonderful man. I'm sure he was a
59:10wonderful dad. I'm sure he was a
59:12wonderful everything. But in my story
59:15and my version of James Cron, he walked
59:18into a crime scene and can determine
59:21within 20 minutes that this was a murder
59:25based on evidence that he hadn't even
59:27completely collected yet. There was
59:29still evidence that was not even found
59:32when he made that assumption. And then
59:35he plants that seed for the rest of the
59:38Rlet Police Department to hear. And they
59:41start festering over this. And without
59:43anybody even knowing it, they develop
59:46tunnel vision and they're thinking it's
59:49only, you know, James Cron, he's done
59:51all these cases. He knows what he's
59:53talking about. He's seen this stuff
59:55before. Susan Smith had just been kind
59:58of unloaded on the public a year prior.
1:00:01So, of course, there's that that seed is
1:00:04planted and then it just kind of all
1:00:06rolls downhill from there. And I do
1:00:08truly believe 100% without a doubt that
1:00:12him saying that there's no intruder here
1:00:16was the very beginning of Darly's
1:00:18demise. The absolute first inclination
1:00:22that it was not truly an attack. So is
1:00:25it is it your opinion that he came in
1:00:27and he just was not wellversed in these
1:00:30crime scenes and he made a mistake or
1:00:33was he being malicious by basically
1:00:35pointing the finger? Yeah, I don't think
1:00:37anybody did anything malicious to Darly.
1:00:40I don't think that anybody in their
1:00:42right mind could potentially come to
1:00:45that conclusion that, you know, 20
1:00:47people, you know, got together and
1:00:50decided, let's frame. Oh, trust me.
1:00:52Trust me, they they do it. It's not
1:00:54realistic. And and I will tell you this,
1:00:57I do what? She she's saying that I think
1:00:59it's unreasonable to assume that 20
1:01:01different people got together to
1:01:03corroborate on this one like frame job
1:01:06against this person and I'm like oh they
1:01:08do that people out in the world
1:01:09definitely do they'll say the
1:01:11prosecutors the detectives will say that
1:01:13they
1:01:16yes
1:01:17we're on the same page Dell I I want to
1:01:20say here cuz you wrote that in your um
1:01:22proof of innocence so I wanted to look
1:01:23into it a little bit you're probably
1:01:25more versed in it on a me this is just a
1:01:27side note For everybody listening, I I
1:01:30put a little thing in here. Um the
1:01:32arrest warrant says that quote,
1:01:34"Although there were quantities of blood
1:01:36throughout the room and around the boys,
1:01:39there was no appreciable clo uh blood on
1:01:42the couch where Darly's head, neck, and
1:01:44shoulders were located at the time that
1:01:47she says she was stabbed by her
1:01:49asalent." This warrant was actually
1:01:51written by Detective Patterson, although
1:01:53he does admit he first spoke to
1:01:56Detective Cron before doing that. So, I
1:01:58I concede that point to you. But what I
1:02:00took away from this and why I put this
1:02:02down here is this is another point of
1:02:04contention where you have blood
1:02:06everywhere and the victim Darly is
1:02:09telling you that although she may not
1:02:11remember it, right? Let's say she
1:02:12doesn't remember it. There's no Darly
1:02:15has said it, everybody has said it. She
1:02:16was attacked on the couch. We all agree
1:02:19on that. And yet she's got these really
1:02:21deep stab wounds as you're as you're
1:02:24conveying them to us. There's no blood
1:02:26on the couch or very little blood
1:02:28considering it almost cut her slit her
1:02:30throat. And so I'm not saying I agree or
1:02:32Okay. Well, it slid her throat and yet
1:02:34very little blood on the couch. So there
1:02:37was part of this. It wasn't just Cron.
1:02:39It was also other detectives putting
1:02:41their detectives hat on saying 1 plus
1:02:43one isn't equal equaling two. Here we
1:02:44have the boys. There's a pool of blood
1:02:46around where they were attacked. This
1:02:48woman is saying that she was attacked on
1:02:50this couch right here. She was stabbed
1:02:51in the throat, in the chest, arms, all
1:02:55these different injuries, and yet very
1:02:56little blood where she said the attack
1:02:58occurred. So, you can weigh in on that,
1:03:01but I just wanted to put it out there
1:03:02that it wasn't just Kron going around
1:03:04doing all of this himself, like you've
1:03:06already admitted, which I appreciate you
1:03:08being honest about it. There was
1:03:09multiple people there that maybe
1:03:11developed this opinion very quickly, not
1:03:13just Kron. Uh, I think Kron was the
1:03:16first person that planted the seed,
1:03:18though. I think he openly and and very
1:03:21proudly says that it only took him 20
1:03:24minutes to determine that there was no
1:03:26intruder. Um, I don't know that any good
1:03:29detective would brag about that in our
1:03:32current day and age. I I'll give you
1:03:34that if that's what happened. I haven't
1:03:35seen anything that says he was at the
1:03:37scene saying that, but if there's video
1:03:38or audio out there where he's bragging
1:03:40about solving this case in 20 minutes,
1:03:42Yes. I give you that. I give you that.
1:03:44Whether whether it's true or not, it
1:03:46doesn't need to be said. He says it
1:03:49himself. He says it several interviews.
1:03:52He says himself that 20 30 minutes. He
1:03:55says it on the stand whenever he's
1:03:58talking it doesn't need to be said by
1:04:00him, not you. Yeah. It doesn't need to
1:04:01be said by him. It's not a point to it's
1:04:03not a point to brag about whether it's
1:04:05true or not. It doesn't need to be said.
1:04:07Just do your job. I think maybe and I'm
1:04:09I hate trying to put myself in people's
1:04:11heads. They they have their own opinions
1:04:12and their own agendas, but I think he
1:04:14was trying to maybe convey it as this
1:04:16was such an obvious case of what I ended
1:04:19up coming to that it was there was no
1:04:21doubt within 20 minutes I knew what
1:04:23happened here. It wasn't even something
1:04:24that I had to think about. It was just
1:04:26the evidence didn't align. Stephanie, I
1:04:29feel like we're just like you're the
1:04:31we're just like cutting you out here,
1:04:32but what do you anything you want to add
1:04:33on that? No, I just want to go back to
1:04:34the fingerprint. Yes. I apologize. We
1:04:37have so much about the fingerprints. Go
1:04:38ahead. According to, you know, Darly's
1:04:41camp, the forensic analysis conclusively
1:04:44proved that that fingerprint, the bloody
1:04:46fingerprint on the coffee table, did not
1:04:48match Darly or either of her sons. And
1:04:51then three separate forensic experts,
1:04:52including one from the FBI. all agreed
1:04:54that it was not from anyone from the
1:04:57crime scene, which then of course would
1:04:59mean it's from somebody outside of the
1:05:02house, which then of course you'd be
1:05:04like, well, this is not one of those DNA
1:05:06things where somebody's hair or skin
1:05:08cells just ended up in the house. This
1:05:11is a bloody fingerprint. This person had
1:05:13to be involved with with what happened
1:05:16to to these two children.
1:05:19Now, that's, you know, according to some
1:05:22testimony and things, we've got Richard
1:05:24Jance, who's a professor of
1:05:25anthropology, not a fingerprint expert.
1:05:27He was hired by the defense, and he
1:05:29concluded the print had a higher
1:05:31probability of being from an adult. And
1:05:34then you've got uh Robert Loans, who was
1:05:36hired by ABC to look at the
1:05:37fingerprints. His opinion was that Darly
1:05:39was not the owner of the coffee table
1:05:41fingerprint. He didn't mention either of
1:05:43the children. We've got Pat Woram who is
1:05:46a latent print examiner hired by the
1:05:48prosecution to refute the defense. He
1:05:51had analyzed photographs of the
1:05:53fingerprints and he said that Richard
1:05:55Jance's report, he was for the defense,
1:05:57presents a misleading and unreliable
1:05:59conclusion and that the defense had
1:06:01misrepresented Jance's report in the
1:06:04writ. For example, the defense said
1:06:05Jance concluded the latent fingerprint
1:06:07belonged to an adult, not a child. Jance
1:06:09never said that. He also found that
1:06:11Jance didn't use points of
1:06:13identification to make his
1:06:14determination, which makes sense because
1:06:16Richard Jance is a professor of
1:06:17anthropology, not a fingerprint expert.
1:06:20And then Woram compared Darly's
1:06:22fingerprints and many other people's
1:06:24prints, for example, Darren, first
1:06:25responders, crime scene people, etc. And
1:06:27he was able to exclude everyone except
1:06:31Darly. He said she could be neither
1:06:33excluded nor identified. And Woram is a
1:06:36late print examiner. Danell, is it
1:06:38Worheim or Woreram? I want to make sure.
1:06:40I was looking it up. I was looking into
1:06:41him. I really don't know. That was
1:06:43posttrial. So, all of that was in her
1:06:46relief efforts. It's all a muted point
1:06:49now because the Dallas County District
1:06:51Attorney, the Conviction Integrity Unit,
1:06:54and the Innocence Project of New York
1:06:56has exclusively 100% determined that
1:07:00this is not Darly's fingerprint. Just
1:07:02the verbiage alone, it cannot be matched
1:07:05or excluded, should be enough for people
1:07:08to question that. If I can exclude you
1:07:10from this fingerprint, then it it
1:07:13clearly there's not enough points there
1:07:15to make it match. If I can match you to
1:07:17this print, then it's a match. There's
1:07:19not an in between. There is no gray.
1:07:22There is either it is either it could be
1:07:24a match or it is not a match. So, can I
1:07:28can I weigh in on that? Because I am a
1:07:29late imprint, not an expert, but I I'm
1:07:32certified in it. So that's why I I I
1:07:34thought this was a partial because the
1:07:36way you would come to that determination
1:07:38is essentially if you have certain
1:07:40points certain markers but not enough
1:07:43and based on the markers you do have you
1:07:45can't rule someone out because there are
1:07:47certain matches there but you don't have
1:07:48enough data to say conclusively whether
1:07:51it's them or rule them out. That's where
1:07:53you would make that determination. So
1:07:56that's where I'm coming from on that. So
1:07:58let's say they took 10 people like they
1:08:00took Darren and then nine CSI people,
1:08:03police, whatever who are in there and
1:08:05they have this partial fingerprint and
1:08:08there's X amount of points and based on
1:08:10the points that are there, they can rule
1:08:12all these other people out because
1:08:14though their fingerprints don't have
1:08:15those specific points, but they wouldn't
1:08:17be able to rule Darly out because maybe
1:08:20some of those points matched whereas
1:08:22some didn't or the part of the
1:08:24fingerprint that was missing wouldn't
1:08:26match because it's missing. But some of
1:08:28her points in her fingerprint did match,
1:08:30whereas the other 10 people had no
1:08:32points that match. Did they ever give
1:08:34like detailed reasons for why Woreromer
1:08:37said that he could exclude everybody
1:08:40except Darly? I think that it was left
1:08:43vague. Um because that's just kind of
1:08:46how they do things. Just enough to leave
1:08:50presumable guilt. You you can't like
1:08:53completely rule it out. You can't
1:08:54completely identify it. Nothing is ever
1:08:56like hard fact in the prosecutor's case
1:09:00because it is all theory. And I think
1:09:02that same thing goes with this
1:09:04fingerprint. James Cron looked at it
1:09:07while they were doing this
1:09:09investigation. The original
1:09:10investigation.
1:09:12If it had been even remotely close to
1:09:15Darly's print, he would have 100% said,
1:09:19"This is Darly's fingerprint." But the
1:09:21only fingerprints they did not have were
1:09:23Devon and Damon's because the
1:09:25Unfortunately, they were not
1:09:26fingerprinted at their autopsy. And at
1:09:29that point, I don't think they actually
1:09:30had the fingerprints from kindergarten
1:09:32for Devon. So, James Cron kind of left
1:09:35it. Based on the size of the ridges, he
1:09:38concluded it was a child's fingerprint.
1:09:40Dr. Jans comes in and says based on the
1:09:44um measurements from the ridges to the
1:09:48ridge, from ridge to ridge that it
1:09:49couldn't be a child's fingerprint, that
1:09:51it was too big to be a child's
1:09:52fingerprint. So, the two other things
1:09:54with the fingerprints that I wanted to
1:09:56point out was they did swab that that
1:09:57bloody print and they did an STR and a
1:10:00YSTR test. And for anybody who doesn't
1:10:02know what that is, it's a short tandem
1:10:04repeat genetic test where they can go
1:10:06through it and see if it belongs to a
1:10:07male or female. Those both results came
1:10:09back inconclusive. But the the belief is
1:10:12because they came back inconclusive, the
1:10:14blood, at least the blood did not belong
1:10:15to a man. Uh the the blood did not that
1:10:18is Darly did not. Yeah. So, so if if it
1:10:21is the offender's fingerprint, it's his
1:10:23fingerprint in either her blood or it
1:10:26would have to be her blood because it's
1:10:27been ruled a not male uh DNA. So, that
1:10:30would mean it was Darly's blood. Uh the
1:10:32only thing I wanted to point in put a
1:10:34feather in your cap is on the phone I
1:10:36said to you, well, did they load it up
1:10:38into Aphus? And you said, yeah, they
1:10:39did. I did find an article. I don't know
1:10:41how true it is, you know, the media, but
1:10:43I did find an article from the Altuna
1:10:46Mirror. They are saying that images of
1:10:48the prints were run in Aphys, but there
1:10:51was no match obtained. And I will give
1:10:52you this. Usually, if there's not enough
1:10:55points to make a match, they don't put
1:10:56it into Aphus because what's the point?
1:10:58Uh, and so that that is something that
1:11:01is I have to I have to concede that
1:11:02point. I don't know uh why they would do
1:11:05that if they didn't have enough points
1:11:06to make a match. And if they did have
1:11:07enough points to make a match, then they
1:11:09should be able to say conclusively yes
1:11:11or no. This is Darly's print or Darren's
1:11:14print or a first responders print. So,
1:11:17we don't know. That's the answer. We
1:11:19don't know. And I'm not here trying to
1:11:21mislead people. So, I think in reality,
1:11:24we're all kind of on the same page.
1:11:25There's certain evidence that would
1:11:27suggest it maybe from an outside party.
1:11:29And there's also evidence that suggests
1:11:31it could still be from Darly, not a male
1:11:34in the house, but Darly, because they
1:11:36couldn't rule out they couldn't rule out
1:11:37female DNA. I mean, if it was Darly's
1:11:39print, it wouldn't mean Yeah. It's not
1:11:42much of anything. It's not Darly's
1:11:44print. They've ran it through APHUS.
1:11:46Darly is a convicted offender according
1:11:49to Aphus. If there was any match at all,
1:11:52it would have then confirmed at that
1:11:54point that that was Darly's fingerprint,
1:11:55but it is not. And the district
1:11:58attorney's office agrees this is not
1:12:00Darly's fingerprint. When was it put in
1:12:02Aphus? What year? Um, do you have an I
1:12:05really I don't have a exact time that it
1:12:08was put in, but it's been since the
1:12:10Innocence Project was involved. So, they
1:12:12took on shortly after we did the last
1:12:15defense. I would say it was 2018,
1:12:172019ish. But again, there's a lot of
1:12:20information to keep kind of filed, you
1:12:22know, in certain order. So, I don't know
1:12:24exactly what point it was ran. I I'll
1:12:27tell you this. I I would like to know
1:12:29more about this fingerprint because
1:12:30something's not adding up with me. I
1:12:33would like something's not adding up
1:12:34with me. I'd really like to know more
1:12:35about it because it's not really
1:12:37connecting because again you usually
1:12:39don't put something into Aphus unless
1:12:41you have a print but it seem they put an
1:12:43image into print and I can tell you from
1:12:45from pulling a lot of prints a
1:12:47photograph of a print is not as good as
1:12:49the actual print. So it's not something
1:12:52that you want to upload anyways.
1:12:53Normally you usually want an actual
1:12:55print. You want to roll the person you
1:12:56know ink or on a digital screen. They
1:12:58have a little piece of glass. The
1:13:00computer will scan it. So, I I'd really
1:13:02just like to be inside the four walls
1:13:04because I'd love to know how good this
1:13:07fingerprint is. That's really what it
1:13:09boils down to. Everything we're talking
1:13:10about is how good is this print. If they
1:13:12came to me, I'll say this right now
1:13:14publicly. If they came to me and said,
1:13:16"Derek, we got 23 points of matching
1:13:19here. We can make a this is a definitive
1:13:21print that we can clearly see. There's
1:13:23no question about this print and its
1:13:26integrity, and we can see all the
1:13:27ridges. We can see all the markings.
1:13:29This is a great print and yet it still
1:13:32doesn't match Darly. Well, Darly can't
1:13:34alter her prints. So, I would concede
1:13:36the point that that print being in there
1:13:38is a problem. Now, did everybody who was
1:13:41in that crime scene get ruled out?
1:13:42They're saying they have. I'm hoping
1:13:44that's the case. There's still some
1:13:45questions. All I would say, and this
1:13:48isn't trying to paint it one way or the
1:13:50other, there is an explanation for this
1:13:52print outside of it not being Darly's
1:13:54where it's still not an intruder. And I
1:13:56know you're not going to agree with
1:13:57that, but that's that is a reality where
1:14:00we talk about contamination of a crime
1:14:02scene, multiple people going in there,
1:14:04not logging who's coming and going
1:14:06properly, all of that can lead to
1:14:09contamination. Every crime scene, by the
1:14:10way, Dr. Henry Lee taught me this. Every
1:14:13crime scene's contaminated the minute
1:14:14you walk into it. Every crime scene, how
1:14:17you document it, how you report
1:14:18everything will decide what is actually
1:14:21taken in as evidence and what isn't. and
1:14:23the integrity of the investigation can
1:14:25be jeopardized based on that reporting.
1:14:27So that's the only thing I'll say. But
1:14:29in I think we all kind of agree that the
1:14:31fingerprint is something that leaves
1:14:33more questions than answers. We have a
1:14:35lot of other things that we've talked
1:14:36about, but the question is the the
1:14:38fingerprint is not something we have a
1:14:40definitive answer to at this point. Even
1:14:43though you're saying it's definitely not
1:14:45dollies, I would like to know the
1:14:47integrity of that print before I said
1:14:49something like that. So the print I sent
1:14:52you a picture of on that 20 points of
1:14:54innocence. I saw it. Yep. That's the
1:14:56picture. It's a picture. Yeah, it's a
1:14:57picture. It's tough. So our side of the
1:15:01fight for that fingerprint was a little
1:15:03bit upset because we weren't allowed to
1:15:06be present when they ran it through
1:15:08APHUS. And our side wanted to be there
1:15:11so we could say yes that that we agree
1:15:14with every process you've done. We agree
1:15:16that that's the best angle to use. We
1:15:18agree that that's the best photo. We
1:15:20didn't get that option. So, we were a
1:15:23little bit upset that they ran it in the
1:15:24family. Right. Correct. On Darly. Yeah.
1:15:26You wouldn't you wouldn't if it's an
1:15:28ongoing investigation. Was this after
1:15:29the fact? This is after the fact because
1:15:31during the trial, they said it was
1:15:34Devon's fingerprint. That's where we
1:15:36left it at trial. We know now, and we've
1:15:38argued from the very beginning that
1:15:40Devon and Damon were not fingerprinted.
1:15:42They couldn't have known it was Devon's
1:15:43fingerprint. And now we know without a
1:15:45doubt, 100%, no question about it, it's
1:15:49not Devon or Damon's fingerprint. And
1:15:51100% not Darly's fingerprint. Just to
1:15:54reiterate, how do we know 100% it's not
1:15:55Devon or Damon's? Because the blood
1:15:58wasn't the blood doesn't belong to them
1:15:59for sure. Correct. The size alone was
1:16:02too big to have been from the boys. That
1:16:04partial fingerprint was bigger than the
1:16:06boy's whole fingerprint. Yeah. Oh man, I
1:16:09would love to be I would love to be in
1:16:10that conversation because Yeah, they do.
1:16:12They submit partial prints to APHAS
1:16:14sometimes, especially in, you know,
1:16:16murder cases, uh, sexual assaults, they
1:16:18you if they have a partial print, you
1:16:19never know, you might get some potential
1:16:21matches, but man, that print that print
1:16:24definitely leaves a lot of questions.
1:16:26It's fine. I mean, I'm okay with it. I
1:16:28The one thing, you know, in an
1:16:30investigation is you're not going to get
1:16:31the answer to every question. That's the
1:16:33that's the reality of the world we live
1:16:35in. I do have some other things I wanted
1:16:37to talk about. Anything else on this
1:16:39before we move on? I know this is a
1:16:40great conversation. So I I'd like to
1:16:43keep talking if if you guys are on board
1:16:44with that. I got something a few other
1:16:46things. Yeah. I want to talk about the
1:16:47sock. Stephanie, you're stealing my
1:16:50thunder. Yeah. Okay. So the sock so the
1:16:52sock. We talked a little bit on the
1:16:54phone about the sock and you mentioned
1:16:56that the sock. We talked about the sock
1:16:58a lot in the episode, so we don't got to
1:16:59regurgitate all that. The sock was
1:17:01outside the house. There have been
1:17:03arguments made. I I'll read what you
1:17:05wrote first. Obviously, Darly couldn't
1:17:07have planted the sock because she was
1:17:09not wearing her Reebok shoes by the
1:17:11door. She was barefoot. Darly's feet had
1:17:15no debris consistent with running
1:17:16barefoot outside. Unknown DNA was found
1:17:20on the sock related to the case. So,
1:17:23here's my first thoughts on that. We
1:17:25know that the distance to where the sock
1:17:27was, it wasn't that far. for you could
1:17:30physically get back in time. If this was
1:17:33a premeditated event where you knew what
1:17:35you were about to do, you could run out
1:17:37there quickly, throw the sock out there,
1:17:38come back. Now, here's my issue. There's
1:17:42a couple things. First off, if the sock
1:17:45was was taken out by the offender while
1:17:47they're fleeing the area, it was a
1:17:49bloody scene. I think we can all agree
1:17:51on that. There's unknown DNA on there.
1:17:53And yet, there's no blood from Damon and
1:17:56Devon. Yes, there is. There is blood
1:17:58from Demon and Devon. Yeah, the only
1:18:01blood on the sock is Devon and Damon's
1:18:03blood. There's two small stains that one
1:18:05was kind of a more diffuse stain. So, it
1:18:08may have been wetted or or dampened or
1:18:11there was some kind of saliva mixed in
1:18:13with some of that blood. So, correct me.
1:18:15I'm wrong here. It's Darly. There's no
1:18:17blood from Darly on the sock. No blood
1:18:19of Darly's on the sock. Okay, that's I
1:18:21apologize. Thank you for correcting me.
1:18:23Yeah, there was DNA found on the sock
1:18:25that belonged to Darly and it was
1:18:27explained to us as epithelial cells as
1:18:30if you would see them in her mouth um or
1:18:33the inside of your nose. Yes, it's just
1:18:35skin cells. So, if Darly did this,
1:18:37right, Darly would have had to have
1:18:39killed the boys first, then taken the
1:18:42sock out to that location and then come
1:18:44back cuz she clearly didn't stab herself
1:18:46and then come back if you're in that
1:18:47camp. So, she would have had to run out
1:18:49there and do that. Andrect that it's
1:18:52possible, right? It's definitely
1:18:53possible. What is your interpretation of
1:18:56the sock? How did the sock get out
1:18:58there? Um, this unknown DNA, you talked
1:19:00about it on the phone with me. We've
1:19:02seen cases with like John Benet where
1:19:04somebody who packaged the the underwear,
1:19:06their DNA was on it. Things like that
1:19:08can happen. But what's your
1:19:10interpretation of the sock? Through the
1:19:12Innocence Project, they're doing very
1:19:14specific testing and I don't know
1:19:17answers to what their testing is going
1:19:20to show. And I can't talk a whole lot
1:19:24about DNA on the sock, but what we have
1:19:26known for a very long time since like I
1:19:29want to say it was 2003 2004 was the
1:19:32first time I had ever heard that there
1:19:34may be unknown male DNA on this sock. It
1:19:37was sent to us after one of the many
1:19:40trials that you know not physical trial
1:19:42but like an attempt to get further
1:19:44testing. We paid for it out of pocket
1:19:47through the defense team. Um, they came
1:19:49back with some unknown alals, which are,
1:19:51you know, segments of your DNA, and they
1:19:54didn't match what would have been
1:19:56expected to have been seen on that sock.
1:19:58The sock does have Darly's DNA on it.
1:20:01Um, what we were told would have been
1:20:04saliva or most likely would have been
1:20:06saliva. And then it had Devon and
1:20:08Damon's blood together, smeared on that
1:20:11sock. In order for us to believe that
1:20:15this is accurate, the blood evidence
1:20:18that the state presents completely
1:20:22ruins any chance that this could have
1:20:25been planted by Darly, the blood expert,
1:20:28Tom Beville, whom is well respected in
1:20:31the the legal world and in the criminal
1:20:34defense or the criminal um world. He was
1:20:38a retired chief of police for Oklahoma.
1:20:41wellestablished man, but he got it wrong
1:20:43on our case and and there's so much I
1:20:45could go into on his whole testimony and
1:20:49on his whole um eth ethical background.
1:20:52Okay, there's a lot there. So, Tom
1:20:55Beville says in his testimony that he
1:20:59thinks that the blood with Darly and the
1:21:02boys on the front of her shirt, there
1:21:04was several spots that were of mixed
1:21:07blood. So they had Darly and Devon's or
1:21:10Darly and Damon's and that blood was
1:21:14mixed and on her shirt. Originally his
1:21:18statement to our defense team was that
1:21:21those bloods those blood spatter that
1:21:23blood whatever he called it then it was
1:21:26mixed before it landed on her shirt. And
1:21:30at the trial he comes up with this
1:21:32completely different story which he is
1:21:35known to do this. Tom Beville is
1:21:37notorious for telling you one thing and
1:21:40then at the trial he says something
1:21:43different. And I'm not making that up.
1:21:44That can that's not slander. That is
1:21:46definitely searchable. You can look it
1:21:49up and find it. He is notorious for
1:21:51changing his opinion based on what he
1:21:55wants or what the state wants for the
1:21:57evidence to show. He then says during
1:22:01the trial that those drops were
1:22:04overlapped. So he wants you to believe
1:22:07that these drops, minute, very small
1:22:11drops, over overlapped each other in
1:22:14exactly the spot that Devon's blood was
1:22:16or the exact spot that Damon's blood was
1:22:19and that they over overlapped on those
1:22:21pre-existing spots of blood.
1:22:24That's the relativity of that happening
1:22:27is so minute.
1:22:30It's I I don't even know that you could
1:22:32really put a a number on the percentage
1:22:35of that actually being logical or or
1:22:38possible in any realm of any universe.
1:22:41It's just not the spot on the back of
1:22:44her shirt that is just Devons. It's a
1:22:47tiny little drop. I I would have to look
1:22:49at the exact measurement, but it doesn't
1:22:51fit the criteria for castoff at all. you
1:22:55cannot see a a tail on it that you
1:22:59cannot determine if there's
1:23:00directionality to it at all. It's
1:23:03actually the size of the end of a pen. I
1:23:06think it's less than a millimeter um
1:23:08which would also kind of ruin it from
1:23:10being a low velocity or castoff in any
1:23:13way, shape or form. It is more
1:23:16consistent with high velocity spatter
1:23:19which would be from like gunshot wound
1:23:21or we know now that it is also high
1:23:24velocity would have a tail. Low velocity
1:23:26wouldn't. Okay. So the drop itself would
1:23:29have had to it's the size of it. Yeah.
1:23:32It's more streaky. It's like I hate the
1:23:34one the way I would describe it is like
1:23:36a tadpole almost. There's other there's
1:23:38another way to describe it but it's
1:23:39we're we're we're a kid show over here.
1:23:41I gota There is no tail on this blood
1:23:44drop. It is that would be low velocity.
1:23:46Okay. So it's so it's too small to
1:23:49really be categorized as castoff though.
1:23:51Castoff in his definition of blood
1:23:55drops. He has his own book Tom Beville.
1:23:57I think that he categorizes it as has to
1:23:59be more than 2 millimeters in size or
1:24:02something along those lines. You have to
1:24:03have directionality. And also let me
1:24:06point out that there is no pattern with
1:24:08one single drop. You have to have more
1:24:11than one drop in order to create a
1:24:13pattern. And there is no additional
1:24:16drops there. There's one single one
1:24:19singular drop on the back of her shirt
1:24:22the size of the end of a pen or the end
1:24:24of a toothpick. And it would be
1:24:26consistent with Darly's story that she
1:24:29was helping Darren with CPR on Devon.
1:24:32She was not medically trained. She
1:24:34didn't know what to do. She did take him
1:24:36a towel. That's in both of their
1:24:37statements. She tells at least two
1:24:39medical professionals while she's in
1:24:41route to the ambulance and once she gets
1:24:43to the hospital. She tells two of them
1:24:45that she did try they tried CPR and she
1:24:48tried to help. And that spot on the back
1:24:51of her shirt would definitely be
1:24:52consistent with Darren blowing into
1:24:55Devon's mouth and that blood kind of
1:24:58splattering outward and landing on her
1:25:00shirt. It's it would have to be a 90°
1:25:03angle to make that drop perfectly round.
1:25:06And you can't get a 90 degree angle
1:25:08while you're casting off and stabbing a
1:25:11child. That it she would be parallel to
1:25:13the floor. I would suggest though that
1:25:16you could get that exact position when
1:25:18you're holding wounds together and
1:25:20you're leaning over a child and you're
1:25:21attempting to do CPR and that gush of
1:25:24breath comes right out of his lungs and
1:25:27as that goes in the air and falls on her
1:25:30back. But wouldn't you expect more than
1:25:31one drop then? I don't aspiration. I
1:25:34don't think you necessarily have to have
1:25:36more than one drop because by that time
1:25:38Devon's not actively bleeding anymore.
1:25:40So, it's going to be more of like, you
1:25:42know, residual blood that was left kind
1:25:45of on the wounds itself. Can we can we
1:25:47go back to the sock for a minute? Yes.
1:25:49Because with the sock, well, first off,
1:25:52there was STR and YSTR testing done on
1:25:54that sock as well, and Darren couldn't
1:25:56be conclusively ruled out as possibly
1:25:58the contributor of that male DNA. Do you
1:26:00do you agree with that? No, there is
1:26:02separate DNA that is Darren's. Darren's
1:26:04DNA is found on the sock. It was limb
1:26:07hair, I believe. But couldn't the DNA
1:26:09that they haven't ruled definitively be
1:26:11just not enough? Sometimes the sample
1:26:13size isn't good. Okay. No, it was
1:26:15completely unknown alals. So, alals that
1:26:18are not in Darren's DNA makeup. Um, and
1:26:21Darren's DNA makeup are the boy's DNA
1:26:23makeup. So, they're, you know, together.
1:26:25For the sake of this, we'll say two DNA
1:26:28profiles, male DNA profiles, not knowing
1:26:30who that DNA belongs to. It could be the
1:26:32intruder. It could be the person who
1:26:35packaged that sock when they first
1:26:37shipped it there. You say you're shaking
1:26:38your head, no, but that's that's
1:26:40happened. It's possible. I I I would I
1:26:42would agree that that has happened, but
1:26:44I would also But it is definitely
1:26:46possible. Yeah. But in Darly's case,
1:26:49this has been litigated for so long and
1:26:51it's been investigated for so long.
1:26:53These individuals are have already been
1:26:56ruled out. Anybody that touched You
1:26:58can't rule You can't rule out the guy
1:26:59who packaged the thing at the factory,
1:27:01though. Oh, I don't know what type of
1:27:03sock it was. Okay.
1:27:06This This was I do I don't think that
1:27:09that is logical or reasonable in the
1:27:12sense that this was a very well-worn
1:27:15sock and had been washed many many times
1:27:18and was in the trash pile. So, it had
1:27:21pretty much met its lifespan, and I
1:27:24don't think that we would still be
1:27:26seeing remnants from a factory worker
1:27:29that created the sock potentially years
1:27:32ago or 6 months ago. I won't even argue
1:27:34that point because I don't I hate when
1:27:36people start going outside of their
1:27:38scope and I'm not a DNA expert. And so,
1:27:40I know in the John Benet Ramsay case, we
1:27:42had something similar with that on her
1:27:44underwear and that's the belief there.
1:27:46But I wanted because I inaccurately said
1:27:49I was under the impression it was Darren
1:27:50and Devon who were not on the sock and
1:27:52it was Darly. But now hearing that and
1:27:54I'm I'm reacting to this just as you
1:27:56correcting me. What do you say to the
1:27:58people who say the fact that Darren's
1:28:00blood's not on there because obviously
1:28:01he wasn't bleeding but you have Damon
1:28:03and Devon's blood on there and yet you
1:28:06don't have Darly's that could suggest
1:28:08that she killed them goes out there
1:28:11before cutting herself plants the sock
1:28:13and comes back because there's going to
1:28:15be many people who say if this offender
1:28:18had the sock on their hand or in their
1:28:19possession and they got blood on it from
1:28:21Damon and Devon when they when they were
1:28:22killing them they should have some drops
1:28:25of blood from from Darly as considering
1:28:28how many times she was cut and yet
1:28:30there's not a single drop of blood from
1:28:31her on there. What do you say to that
1:28:33argument that that does actually make
1:28:36her look more guilty? I don't think that
1:28:39you can follow that argument when you
1:28:44are leaning against what the state
1:28:46presented and their blood expert because
1:28:48their blood expert says that she had to
1:28:51have killed Devon, cut her own throat,
1:28:55and then killed Damon. That's his
1:28:57testimony. And in order for that to fit
1:29:01this theory, she would have had to have
1:29:03ran the sock down the alley while she
1:29:05was actively bleeding. She was active
1:29:07bleeding. Yeah, I don't see that
1:29:08happening. It's not possible. That
1:29:09didn't happen. No, it's not possible. I
1:29:11didn't watch the trial, but I if that's
1:29:13the argument they're making that she cut
1:29:15herself and then ran out the sock, I
1:29:17disagree with that. I disagree with that
1:29:19100%. I think if she did it, and I've
1:29:21already told you what I feel. I'm not
1:29:22sc, you know, beating around the bush.
1:29:24She cut herself after they were already
1:29:26dead. I think she would have cut
1:29:28herself, thrown the glass on the ground,
1:29:30and then she's right there for Darren
1:29:31when he comes down the stairs.
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1:31:28[Music]
1:31:33What it is believed. Is this believed by
1:31:35you that the the sock may have been used
1:31:37to be shoved into Darly's mouth? That's
1:31:40me. That that's what I think. Okay. And
1:31:42and a lot of people are on board with
1:31:44it. They're like, "Yeah, we see how they
1:31:46could logically that makes sense to like
1:31:48maybe he used it on his hand initially
1:31:51or you know she she absolutely did have
1:31:53the sores on the inside of her mouth.
1:31:55The nurses didn't document them because
1:31:57they didn't document a lot of things
1:31:58that Darly had physically on her being.
1:32:01It was a very strange case that they
1:32:03didn't know how to handle and nobody was
1:32:05really assessing her the way a crime
1:32:08victim should have been assessed to be
1:32:10honest. and that would have been how the
1:32:12skin cells got on the sock because it
1:32:16was um shoved in her mouth. But we have
1:32:18Darly who had previously testified at
1:32:20trial that she thought the man's hand
1:32:22was maybe what caused her injuries. And
1:32:24then it was only um until she requested
1:32:27new DNA testing in 2008 that she then
1:32:30brought up the possibility of the sock
1:32:32being shoved in her mouth. And then then
1:32:34she said she wanted saliva testing to be
1:32:36done as it had not been done before. So,
1:32:40if the the theory of the sock being
1:32:42shoved in her mouth, because as we've
1:32:43discussed before, Darly's story did
1:32:45consistently change throughout the, you
1:32:47know, multiple times that she argue that
1:32:49when you're done. Okay. Thanks for
1:32:52letting me finish so I don't lose it.
1:32:53Um, so if it was shoved into her mouth
1:32:56during the attack, you would expect that
1:32:59her blood would be on the sock if she
1:33:02had already been cut. Per perhaps it it
1:33:04was done prior to her being cut. Again,
1:33:08we don't know the series of events that
1:33:10unfolded. Nobody does because Darly has
1:33:13very little memory of what actually
1:33:15happened. Her memory is very spotty. And
1:33:18so, we don't know that the steps that
1:33:20were taken prior to her coming to and
1:33:23realizing that, you know, they're
1:33:25they've got a storm going on. So, the
1:33:27defense doesn't know the series of
1:33:28events. The prosecution doesn't know the
1:33:30series of events. Darly herself, us
1:33:31obviously none of us know the series of
1:33:33events, which means that technically she
1:33:35could have run that sock down to the
1:33:40other house. We we Darly knows that
1:33:43didn't happen. The defense knows that
1:33:45that didn't happen. There's the the
1:33:48blood expert says that that couldn't
1:33:50have happened. And if you believe in the
1:33:53state's theory, then you have to believe
1:33:55that Darly did this alone, without
1:33:57anybody else's help, completely alone.
1:34:00There's no room for anybody else to be
1:34:01involved if Darly did this. Yet, their
1:34:04blood expert completely null and voids
1:34:08the theory that the bleeding happened
1:34:11the way it did or the sock got there the
1:34:13way it did. One of the two are not
1:34:15driving. Okay. But technically, because
1:34:17no one does know besides Darly in this
1:34:20specific in this specific part with the
1:34:22sock and maybe even that part Darly, she
1:34:24could have. I'm not saying she did, but
1:34:27technically the boys could have been
1:34:28stabbed first, then the sock could have
1:34:30been run down, then she could have come
1:34:31back, and then her injuries happened.
1:34:33Yeah. Basically, we're saying the blood
1:34:34expert would be wrong. That Yeah. What
1:34:36you're What you're saying is that if it
1:34:39happened that way, then what really
1:34:42convicted her is out the window because
1:34:44a lot of people believe and a lot of
1:34:46people quote what Tom Beville says about
1:34:49all the blood spatter and about the
1:34:51blood drops and all of those things.
1:34:53That's what really convicted her. And if
1:34:56we're looking at it as if his testimony
1:34:59is accurate, then that sock has no way
1:35:02of getting there. And if I don't think
1:35:04there's any shot that she walked down
1:35:05the road or ran down the road with a
1:35:07sliced throat or or stabbed throat,
1:35:09whatever. I know you I know you guys are
1:35:11very careful with the verbiage. Yes. I I
1:35:13would like to also say that I don't know
1:35:16if if I don't I'm not going to get into
1:35:19super personal details, but it if you
1:35:21know Darly's size and her frame and her
1:35:25upper chest was very large. She's not
1:35:28running anywhere fast. There's no way
1:35:31she's going anywhere fast without a bra.
1:35:33We're all adults here. We can see the
1:35:34videos and photos of her. I think she
1:35:36had an augmentation, too, right? She
1:35:37did. She did. So, I mean, listen, we're
1:35:38adult was very obsessed with. He
1:35:41mentioned it on multiple occasions which
1:35:42was so weird. Yeah. I would say it's a
1:35:45sign of the times honestly. And that
1:35:47goes back to and that goes back to
1:35:48motive too. They're always trying to
1:35:49tell the jury why this person did it.
1:35:52Yes. It's weird the way they fixated on
1:35:54things back then before before someone
1:35:56told them, "Hey, now every single
1:35:58person, half the people, you know, have
1:35:59some type of, you know, enhancement."
1:36:02Yeah. And that was normal for the Dallas
1:36:04area. It was not normal for the Kurville
1:36:07area. Darly was a product of Dallas,
1:36:11Texas. Like Darly was a Darly was a
1:36:13Dallas girl. Yeah. Yeah. No, she
1:36:15definitely fit the uh watching the uh
1:36:17watching that last the last defense, you
1:36:19definitely got a whole picture of it.
1:36:21So, is it possible the skin cells found
1:36:23on the sock were just Darly skin cells
1:36:25and not necessarily saliva mixed or skin
1:36:29cells from inside her mouth? Or was
1:36:30saliva definitely 100% found on that
1:36:33sock? You know what? I thought I saw
1:36:35something on that. Let me look for my
1:36:36notes. But maybe not. I can't speak on
1:36:39that exactly because I've not seen that
1:36:42report in a really long time. I don't
1:36:43want to misrepresent something. I know
1:36:46that we were told that it was from
1:36:49saliva, but I don't want to misrepresent
1:36:51that it's putting in into a report
1:36:54somewhere that it is specifically saliva
1:36:57that was tested. Yeah. It was tested so
1:36:59long ago that I don't know exactly how
1:37:02much detail they had on those epithelial
1:37:04cells. Now, we would know specifically,
1:37:06you know, if it was epithelial cells
1:37:08from your mouth. We would be able to
1:37:09tell. It looks like it was not because
1:37:11it's it looks like here that your sister
1:37:15was actually requesting saliva testing
1:37:17be done, which would make us all believe
1:37:19that it hasn't been done yet. So, that's
1:37:22fair. I mean, that's from that's the
1:37:23only thing I had on that is that she was
1:37:24requesting saliva testing be done, which
1:37:27would corroborate her story that it it
1:37:29potentially was in her mouth. But even
1:37:30she doesn't know if it was. She's just
1:37:32she's guessing. Denell said she does not
1:37:35agree that Darly changed her story a few
1:37:38times or multiple times. So, I'm going
1:37:39to bring it back to that because I'm
1:37:41interested in your take. Okay. So, in
1:37:43regards to Darly's story evolving or
1:37:45changing,
1:37:47it would be I would be remiss if I did
1:37:50not mention that you cannot have a
1:37:53scripted answer to every question when
1:37:58you're in a traumatic situation. And
1:38:00your brain definitely tries to make
1:38:02things make sense based on what you do
1:38:05know. Darly's story does not ever
1:38:08change. She is consistent with what she
1:38:11says. Every time it comes directly from
1:38:13her mouth, she's consistent with it.
1:38:16Officer Wadell speaks very passionately
1:38:20about him instructing her to provide aid
1:38:22to her children. Never once in the 911
1:38:25call do you hear him instruct her to
1:38:28help her babies. that is not heard
1:38:30anywhere on the 911 call. He says to
1:38:33Darren to get a towel. Darly had already
1:38:35given him a towel. And if you read it,
1:38:38the way he talks about it and and the
1:38:40way the 911 call goes, he says
1:38:43everything he talks about with Darly is
1:38:46during the 911 call. He does not speak
1:38:48to her again at all. After the 911 call,
1:38:52there is no further communication
1:38:53between Wadell and Darly. He says that
1:38:55himself. Yet the 911 call, you can't
1:38:58hear him say any of that. He doesn't
1:39:00ever tell her anything other than lay
1:39:03down, sit down right here. That's it.
1:39:06And if you're telling me to lay down and
1:39:07sit down right here, then how can I help
1:39:10my children? And to all of the
1:39:13speculation that Darly never offered aid
1:39:15to her children, the blood map
1:39:17completely
1:39:19completely ruins that there. Darly's
1:39:22blood is seen walking to Devon. Darly's
1:39:25blood is seen walking to Damon. There is
1:39:27blood there of hers contributing to
1:39:30offering aid to her boys. The blood map
1:39:32supports her theory. I think that
1:39:35basically everything we have as evidence
1:39:39is supported by Darly's statement. They
1:39:42developed this theory that she did it.
1:39:45James Cron starts working on it at like
1:39:495:30 6:00 that morning. There has not
1:39:52been a detailed statement from Darly.
1:39:55All they know at this point is that
1:39:57Darly was on the couch. She awoke to an
1:39:59intruder. The intruder stabbed her boys
1:40:01and attacked her. That's all they really
1:40:04know. And they know that Darly doesn't
1:40:06have a visual understanding of who this
1:40:08individual is. She only can tell you
1:40:11that he had on a dark shirt, blue jeans,
1:40:13and a baseball cap, and longer hair.
1:40:16That's all she knows. That's all she's
1:40:17ever said. She's not said anything past
1:40:20that. We did have some investigators
1:40:23working on investigating it privately
1:40:25for us as a family while the trial was
1:40:27going on. There was several suspects
1:40:29that we felt were very promising. Um DNA
1:40:33wasn't like a thing back then where you
1:40:35could like you didn't understand it like
1:40:37you do now. So there was this thought
1:40:40that it is this guy, it could be that
1:40:42guy. It it really could be this guy. And
1:40:44that was kind of where Darly's head was
1:40:46during the trial. Well, we've got to
1:40:48find who did this because if we can
1:40:50prove that person did it, then then they
1:40:52know it wasn't me. And this crazy
1:40:55nightmare that she woke up in can be
1:40:57over. Unfortunately, we didn't we we
1:41:01couldn't get to that point and they took
1:41:04her letters and used them against her
1:41:05saying she was planting the the names of
1:41:08individuals that she thought could have
1:41:10done it. And really, it was just like a
1:41:12hopeful statement, you know, I think it
1:41:15could be this guy. this really he he
1:41:17fits every every thing that we've seen.
1:41:20And I've done that myself. Like I've
1:41:22gotten leads over the years and I was
1:41:24like, "Oh my god, I can't rule him out."
1:41:26Like this one's this one's legit. This
1:41:28could be the real guy. And then, you
1:41:31know, for whatever reason, it's kind of
1:41:33like w not him for for whatever reason,
1:41:37we could find a way to rule him out or
1:41:39we know it's not him because that person
1:41:41has a record and would be in the system
1:41:43or whatnot. So, you don't necessarily
1:41:45disagree that the the story that she
1:41:47told based on, you know, from police
1:41:50interviews, written statements to the
1:41:53trial did change. But you're saying it
1:41:56wasn't a malicious changing. It was
1:41:58just, hey, this is how things are
1:42:00remembered. This is how things evolved.
1:42:02Maybe when she was, you know, speaking
1:42:04to the police, she was taken out of
1:42:05context. Yes. Everything you're hearing
1:42:08repeated back during the trial that
1:42:11you're basing your assessment that her
1:42:13story changed is all from it's like a
1:42:16game of telephone. The the nurse heard
1:42:19her say this. The detective heard her
1:42:21say this. Wadell says she said all this,
1:42:25but what she said to Wadell was during
1:42:27the 911 call and it's not on the 911
1:42:30call. So you can eliminate Wadell's
1:42:33statement altogether because nothing he
1:42:36said he talked to her about is on the
1:42:38911 call. So it's pretty much not there
1:42:42because it didn't exist. He didn't tell
1:42:44Darly to help the boys ever. I hate
1:42:47doing this because I would make a
1:42:48horrible police officer cuz I feel like
1:42:50I'm grilling you now and it's like I
1:42:51don't want her to think I don't believe
1:42:53her. But how do you how do you account
1:42:55Darly's uh story sort of story the the
1:42:58changes? We do know for a fact that
1:43:01between her first written statement,
1:43:02which was taken, I believe a few days
1:43:04after the boy's funeral, or she went
1:43:05right from the funeral to the police
1:43:08station, it was the day that her and
1:43:09Darren went there together, and that was
1:43:12their their first written statements to
1:43:14her statements uh at the trial. Those
1:43:17did change slightly. Um there were
1:43:20things that were never brought up during
1:43:21her her written statement, you know,
1:43:23things added like her talking about
1:43:25wetting the cloths and and things like
1:43:27that. How would you explain that? Do you
1:43:29think it's just because when she was
1:43:31being interviewed, she didn't remember
1:43:33everything or based on what, you know,
1:43:36people who who think she's guilty
1:43:37believe is that she had obviously
1:43:39already gotten information through her
1:43:41defense team of what the prosecution's
1:43:42case was. So, her testimony at trial was
1:43:45trying to sort of match the evidence
1:43:47that the prosecution had. The best way
1:43:49to answer that is
1:43:51if Darly was changing her story,
1:43:58I don't know how to explain this the
1:43:59best way. It so if you are staging a
1:44:03scene, that part of the staging is going
1:44:06to be part of your story. Like you're
1:44:08going to include that. And that was not
1:44:12an issue with Darly's case. wasn't like
1:44:15things that she included that she
1:44:17shouldn't have known about. The issue
1:44:19with Darly's statements. So, the first
1:44:22one was created. She wrote her first
1:44:25official statement on June 8th. She left
1:44:28the hospital to get ready for the
1:44:30funeral. The police picked her up. They
1:44:32drive her straight to the police
1:44:33department. She writes out her whole uh
1:44:37account of what happened.
1:44:39we are completely oblivious to the fact
1:44:42that they think Darly and Darren are
1:44:44responsible in some form or fashion. So
1:44:47when you're recounting a traumatic
1:44:49event, it it's possible that you think
1:44:52you see things that are important and
1:44:55other things that are not important. And
1:44:57if I'm telling this story from Darly's
1:45:00perspective
1:45:01and some man just broke into my house
1:45:03and tried to kill my kids and myself,
1:45:06I'm not going to necessarily provide
1:45:09details as to what happened after he
1:45:12left or what I did to render aid because
1:45:16it's not important to the crime itself.
1:45:18It wasn't part of the actual attack. And
1:45:22I do think that that's why she didn't
1:45:25say, "I went to the sink and I wetted a
1:45:27towel and then I went to Devon and I
1:45:29gave Darren the towel and then I came
1:45:31back to the sink and I got another towel
1:45:33and then I went." Plus, if you think
1:45:35about it, you don't know what you did.
1:45:38Like, you're just functioning on
1:45:41adrenaline. And it is autopilot at that
1:45:44point. It is very possible that these
1:45:46things just happened and she realizes
1:45:50after the fact once they say, you know,
1:45:53we think you're responsible. You must
1:45:54have done it because this, this, and
1:45:56this. Maybe that maybe that lines up
1:46:00with with how she remembers things. But
1:46:02it it was there before she was
1:46:06questioned. The towels were in the crime
1:46:08scene photos. We know that she was
1:46:10rendering aid because she tells them in
1:46:13the ambulance that she tried to help
1:46:14Darren with CPR. We know that she
1:46:16renders aids because she talks to um one
1:46:19of the nurses about providing CPR.
1:46:23There's other things that support what
1:46:26she was saying in her statement. The
1:46:29little details that she leaves out could
1:46:32very well be contributed to I'm focusing
1:46:36on the attack. what could be helpful in
1:46:39in finding the intruder, not what could
1:46:43be helpful in defending myself. Because
1:46:46again, we had no idea. They they were
1:46:48suspicious. Yeah. No idea at all. Greg
1:46:51Davis wasn't talking to us. We didn't
1:46:53know he was involved. We had Jimmy
1:46:55Patterson whom was very active at
1:46:58communicating with us and on multiple
1:47:01occasions told us that he had found DNA
1:47:03underneath Darly's fingernails and that
1:47:06that was going to be how we solved it
1:47:08and you know all these little things. He
1:47:10was giving us that information in an
1:47:13attempt to I guess make Darly
1:47:15comfortable and it we just completely
1:47:19believed with our whole hearts that they
1:47:21were on the same side as us and we
1:47:23trusted what they were doing and saying
1:47:26and it was quite the opposite. They were
1:47:29definitely building a case uh to support
1:47:33Darly being the guilty person. The the
1:47:36thing about the t the thing about the
1:47:37sink is what you're saying is makes
1:47:39perfect sense. I think any parent
1:47:40watching this would say, "Hey, listen.
1:47:41If I woke up to this, I'm not going to
1:47:44remember half of what happened. Maybe
1:47:4590% of it. I'm blacked out." Like, it's
1:47:47a a traumatic event. You're asking me
1:47:49specific details. All I saw were my two
1:47:52little boys stabbed on the floor. That's
1:47:54the only thing that I could see. The
1:47:56other side to that coin is that people
1:47:58are going to say, and you know, we've
1:48:00already told you what we think, you
1:48:00know, as far as where we'd go with it,
1:48:02but the other side, the people who think
1:48:04she's guilty are going to say she
1:48:05realized that they had, you know, she
1:48:07cut herself at the sink. She realized
1:48:09her blood was going to be in that sink.
1:48:11Now she has to have a justification as
1:48:13to why that blood's going to be found
1:48:14there. Oh, I brought the towels over to
1:48:16the sink. My blood was on it because I
1:48:18was patting myself. I'm not saying I'm
1:48:20I'm not trying to convince you, but the
1:48:22the point I'm making here is depending
1:48:24on what you want to believe, you can
1:48:26contort the evidence to fit your
1:48:29narrative. And that's why this case is
1:48:31so intriguing. I wanted to talk about
1:48:33one more thing that I didn't have on my
1:48:35list, but now I'm remembering it. And I
1:48:37I really want your opinion on it and
1:48:39maybe the opinion of Darly if you've
1:48:41spoken to her about it because I think
1:48:42it's a critical piece of evidence that
1:48:44we almost overlooked and it's the knife
1:48:47and it's not necessarily the knife
1:48:48itself but it's the fact that the fibers
1:48:50from the screen were found on that
1:48:53knife. How do you explain the fact that
1:48:56the offender I believe if they came in
1:48:59came in through that screen? It's like
1:49:00you're in my head and that's not even on
1:49:02our notes or anything. That's just but
1:49:04like how do you explain how do you
1:49:06explain fibers from the screen being on
1:49:07a knife that would have had been you
1:49:09would have been used to gain entry to
1:49:11the house in the first place? That is a
1:49:12really good question and that is
1:49:14something that a lot of people kind of
1:49:17lean on as the determining factor. I
1:49:20think I do. Okay. Let me blow your mind
1:49:22then. Okay. Okay. Blow my mind. So you
1:49:24dip a paintbrush in some white paint and
1:49:28then you go and you paint something and
1:49:30then you come back and you dip your
1:49:31paintbrush in some pink paint and you
1:49:33paint something. There's still some
1:49:35white paint in your other color. So it
1:49:39is my belief and I think the belief of a
1:49:42lot of people that support Darly that
1:49:45that is contamination and contamination
1:49:48alone. it screen fibers on a on a on a
1:49:52knife for food. 100%. That knife block
1:49:56was dusted. The knife beside the opening
1:49:59on each side, those were dusted. However
1:50:03you look at it, it's in the trial
1:50:05transcript that those were dusted. Five
1:50:08years fingerprint. When you say dusted,
1:50:09you're talking dusted for print. Dusted
1:50:11for fingerprints by Hamilton. He dusted
1:50:14the window screen first and then worked
1:50:16his way in. dusted the door, dusted the
1:50:18countertops, dusted the refrigerator,
1:50:20dusted that knife block, and the two
1:50:22handles beside the knife that was used,
1:50:25that empty spot
1:50:27in that process. Those finger or those
1:50:30fibers could have been transmitted
1:50:33everywhere. Like we can't quantify how
1:50:36many fibers were spread all over the
1:50:39house, but it is very very plausible
1:50:42that that was there just by even the
1:50:47intruder himself when he reaches in and
1:50:49grabs that other knife, he could have
1:50:51deposited some fibers in that butcher
1:50:53block at the time. Mr. Lynch, who was
1:50:56our trace evidence analyst, himself,
1:50:59says there should have been more fibers
1:51:02on the knife, had Darly cut the screen
1:51:05with that knife. He in all his
1:51:08experiments that he did, and he was much
1:51:10more of a scientist than Beville was. In
1:51:14in his experiments, there was well more
1:51:17than one tiny fiber that was so minute
1:51:21it could not be tested in any other way.
1:51:24Lynch suggested they do the chemical
1:51:26analysis to determine if it was the same
1:51:28exact chemical composition as what was
1:51:31in the screen. And Greg Davis said, "No,
1:51:33we don't need that. That's okay. We
1:51:35don't need that." And let me tell you
1:51:37why. You just have to leave enough room
1:51:41for somebody to presume that she's
1:51:44guilty. That's all he needed was that
1:51:46little bit of wiggle room. And if
1:51:48anything can confirm or eliminate her as
1:51:52the suspect, he didn't want it
1:51:54documented. And all of his experts that
1:51:57he goes out and gets, majority of them
1:52:01tell you during their transcript, during
1:52:04the trial in the transcripts that Greg
1:52:06Davis said he did not need a report. And
1:52:09that is a very, very tricky thing
1:52:12because you're paying somebody to
1:52:14analyze something, but you don't want a
1:52:15report. Why would you not want to
1:52:17report? Because it's discoverable and
1:52:20then we know what's out there. So, that
1:52:23was a lot of it. So, I'm going to go
1:52:25back to the actual uh processing of the
1:52:27prints. There's a couple things that
1:52:29could dispute your theory. I don't have
1:52:31the information, but here's what I'll
1:52:32say. There's different types of
1:52:34mechanisms, brushes that can be used in
1:52:36wands that can be used to process a
1:52:39fingerprint. One would be uh like a
1:52:41feather, one would be like a fiber, one
1:52:43would be like a horseair. There's all
1:52:45different types of brushes you can use
1:52:47for different applications. There's also
1:52:49a metal wand which is used for magnetic
1:52:52powder. Magnetic powder wouldn't leave
1:52:54any type of contamination because what
1:52:56you do with the wand is you stick it
1:52:58into the magnetic powder, you drop the
1:53:00wand down, it grabs the magnetic powder
1:53:02into a ball, you process the area, and
1:53:04then you hit the wand again, and that
1:53:06magnetic powder dissipates. It goes
1:53:09away. But the wand itself never touches
1:53:11any of the substrates. The other
1:53:13argument I would make is if they're
1:53:15processing the window for fingerprints.
1:53:18Again, I wasn't there, so I'm not saying
1:53:20this conclusively. I'm processing the
1:53:23outer frame of the window. I'm not
1:53:24processing the screen itself. And the
1:53:26reason why I'm not processing the
1:53:28screen, it's a physical impossibility to
1:53:31uh to get a a fingerprint off a screen.
1:53:34You're not going to do it. It's hard
1:53:35enough to get it off a piece of glass.
1:53:36You're definitely not going to dust
1:53:39anywhere near the screen because the
1:53:40screen is not going to give you anything
1:53:42usable. So, it's an interesting angle. I
1:53:46think it's something where if you're
1:53:47looking at it from the outside and
1:53:48you're not personally connected to it,
1:53:50there's a lot of ser there's a lot of
1:53:52information here that says a combination
1:53:54of things. The police were out to get
1:53:56Darly. They had assumed it was her right
1:53:58away, which I think we agree with or not
1:54:00we agree with, but you agree with my
1:54:02what I'm saying. Uh, and then the second
1:54:04thing was there was some really
1:54:05unfortunate luck for for Darly as well
1:54:08where things just look like she did it,
1:54:11but there's explanations for it that are
1:54:13not high not we can't sit here and say
1:54:15that it's very likely of contamination.
1:54:17I've processed a lot of prints. I've
1:54:20never had the substrates transfer over
1:54:21from one brush to another. Not in that
1:54:24context. It doesn't mean it's
1:54:25impossible. I'm not some, you know,
1:54:27crack detective who's investigated every
1:54:29case. It's definitely possible. I was
1:54:31giving an argument the other day when we
1:54:33talk about recreating experiments and
1:54:35recreating scenes and I brought up the
1:54:38India flight that just happened where
1:54:40there was 292 people on a flight. They
1:54:43crashed, the thing blew up. One man
1:54:46walked away from that plane crash pretty
1:54:48much unscathed. He was sitting in row
1:54:5011A and he was walking away on film and
1:54:53on his phone. Now, if you and I, if the
1:54:55three of us got together and recreated
1:54:58that exact situation and tried to
1:55:00replicate that exact person in that
1:55:02exact seat surviving this crash, we
1:55:05could do it a million times. We may
1:55:07never be able to recreate it. But as I
1:55:10sit here right now and people give me
1:55:12[ __ ] for this, I have to say it's
1:55:14possible, right? It's possible because I
1:55:17can't say 100% certainty, maybe 99 in my
1:55:20opinion, but I can't say with 100%
1:55:22certainty that what you're describing
1:55:25couldn't have happened. So Stephanie,
1:55:27any any words on that as well? Yeah, I I
1:55:30want to go back to the knife. We have
1:55:32talked at length, especially the first
1:55:34few episodes, about Darly consistently
1:55:36bringing up the fact that she had
1:55:38touched the knife to the 911 operator,
1:55:40to the police on the scene when she got
1:55:42to the hospital. And obviously you're
1:55:45her sister. You talk to her a lot. I'm
1:55:47sure you guys have talked about what the
1:55:49internet is saying, what people in
1:55:50general are saying. Does she have an
1:55:52explanation for that? Like what was her
1:55:54thought process or where was her head
1:55:55at? I guess is what my question would
1:55:56be. I think that the background that
1:56:00would help with this maybe and I don't
1:56:03know this is just my memories as a
1:56:05child. Our house was broken into when we
1:56:07lived in Levik and the police came out
1:56:10and dusted everything. And in that, we
1:56:13were all there. We were coming home from
1:56:15something. Darly, me, Dana, my dad, and
1:56:17my mom. We were all there. We find that
1:56:19our house is broken into. The police
1:56:21come in and they dust, you know, these
1:56:22areas looking for any kind of usable
1:56:24print. Nobody ever found anything. It
1:56:27never turned into like we didn't get
1:56:29anything out of it. It was just minor.
1:56:31Nothing of great value. I think they
1:56:33stole a TV, something stupid.
1:56:36But that process definitely showed us
1:56:38that fingerprints are important to a
1:56:41criminal case. And I think that one, you
1:56:45have to know that Darly's fingerprints
1:56:47were never found on that knife. And two,
1:56:50the way that it is presented is that she
1:56:53offers that information up first, but in
1:56:56the 911 call, she's asked about that.
1:56:59Like she says the knife was over there
1:57:01and she tells the 911 operator, you
1:57:04know, then he dropped the knife, he
1:57:05left. And the operator says, "Don't
1:57:07touch anything." Well, then that plant,
1:57:10"Oh my god, I picked it up. I can't
1:57:11believe I picked it up. I should have
1:57:12not picked it up." But she's following
1:57:15this intruder that has injured herself
1:57:18and her child, and you can't just leave
1:57:21their weapon there for them to come back
1:57:23and get you some more. So, she picks it
1:57:25up more of an instinct of of protecting
1:57:28herself and her family and disarming
1:57:30this intruder. And in that process, she
1:57:33didn't realize that she was maybe
1:57:36contaminating evidence. But that is
1:57:39important. If you don't know who did
1:57:41this and you genuinely are concerned
1:57:44about finding who did this and who's
1:57:46responsible for this, that would be
1:57:48important to you. I would think about
1:57:50that now. I mean, I'm a crime fan, so I
1:57:53would think about that now, but back
1:57:55then there wasn't really true crime
1:57:56shows. There wasn't this obsession so
1:57:58much with true crime. And I really do
1:58:00think that it comes back to when our
1:58:02house was robbed. We sat there and
1:58:05watched these police officers
1:58:06fingerprint things. But to answer your
1:58:08question more specifically, she was
1:58:10asked, she was told not to touch
1:58:12anything. And in response to that, she
1:58:16says, "I picked up the knife. I already
1:58:18picked it up." And then she realizes,
1:58:20"Oh god, I shouldn't have picked it up
1:58:21because there could have been prints."
1:58:23That particular handle was not conducive
1:58:25to fingerprinting. And so, a lot of them
1:58:28are. People think footprints are so easy
1:58:30to grab. I'm so glad you said that
1:58:31because we know she picked up the knife
1:58:33and yet there's no fingerprints there.
1:58:35So, if we didn't know it, people would
1:58:37make the argument, "Oh, she never picked
1:58:38up that knife because people think that
1:58:41no matter what you touch, you're going
1:58:42to get a fingerprint like the movies and
1:58:44TV." And that's just not the reality.
1:58:46Definitely not the reality. And another
1:58:48thing I wanted to mention, the um you
1:58:52make comment about her stepping on the
1:58:54glass and hearing the glass crunch under
1:58:56her feet. That's not part of this case.
1:58:59That was never said. She never said
1:59:01that. She never had any glass in her
1:59:04feet. She never said she felt glass. She
1:59:06never stepped on any glass. So that's
1:59:10the problem with Darly's case. A lot of
1:59:13people like to take it on and and things
1:59:17come out of their presentation where
1:59:19maybe they change one word and it
1:59:21becomes a whole different storyline, you
1:59:24know, like it's a whole another
1:59:25statement when you take that one word
1:59:27out just like the Darly or Dana was
1:59:29staying at her house for two weeks. I
1:59:31don't know where that came from. I've
1:59:32never once heard that and it's not true.
1:59:35So, but unfortunately people take on
1:59:38these cases and they dissect them and
1:59:40they add in their own little
1:59:41trajectories, their own little
1:59:43prerogatives or you know what if she did
1:59:45this because biases their own little
1:59:47biases. That's that's a fair statement.
1:59:49Yeah, it happens every day. We're all
1:59:51viewing it through our own lens and
1:59:53everybody's lens has a different
1:59:56backstory. So for me and for Darly and
1:59:59for Dana, we'd never lost anybody. We'd
2:00:01never been to a funeral. We'd never had
2:00:03that kind of loss in our life. We didn't
2:00:06know anything about the crime shows. We
2:00:08didn't know uh that they were
2:00:10implicating her. We didn't know any of
2:00:12those things. And they say that an
2:00:15innocent person is the hardest person to
2:00:17defend because you don't know. You
2:00:20really don't know. And if you don't
2:00:22know, you can't fabricate an explanation
2:00:24or a story to make it make sense. And I
2:00:28I think that that's a lot of the problem
2:00:30with Darly's story is people try to fit
2:00:33pieces together. It's like a round peg
2:00:35and a square hole and and you just can't
2:00:38do that. If you take away all of the
2:00:41opinions, all of the opinions, and you
2:00:44strictly look at facts, there is
2:00:47nothing, absolutely not one single thing
2:00:50that can be exclusively
2:00:54connected to Darly being guilty. Every
2:00:56bit of their evidence is contamination
2:01:00or hearsay. Somebody said she changed
2:01:03her story because she said this. Wadell
2:01:05said she said this. But none of that can
2:01:08be proven. That is all just opinion.
2:01:11Same with the blood spatter. That is an
2:01:13opinion. And nowadays you cannot convict
2:01:16somebody on blood alone. And the the
2:01:19definition of an expert witness is so
2:01:21much different now than what it was back
2:01:23then. back then I could have been an
2:01:25expert on on a crime scene at We're
2:01:28still seeing it. We're still seeing it.
2:01:30Trust me, we're still seeing it. Here's
2:01:32what I'll say. When we talked on the
2:01:34phone, I said right out to you that you
2:01:36weren't coming on this this show to
2:01:38convince me or convince Stephanie of
2:01:41something. You were you were giving
2:01:43another side of the story, which we are
2:01:45always about. We don't we just want the
2:01:47truth. This is about Damon and Devon at
2:01:50minimum, right? bringing the person
2:01:52responsible to justice if they haven't
2:01:54already. And I could sit here and we
2:01:57could keep going back and forth. I
2:01:59respectfully disagree with you that
2:02:00there's not evidence here that says it's
2:02:03your sister. I think there's a lot that
2:02:05doesn't align with what she did say.
2:02:07That's just my personal opinion. But I
2:02:09want to say something in a positive
2:02:11note, and this isn't [ __ ] I
2:02:12absolutely love this conversation
2:02:14because here's a group of people who
2:02:16have never met before having a strong
2:02:19difference of opinion and having a
2:02:21respectful
2:02:23conversation about with discourse but
2:02:27hearing each other out and understanding
2:02:29that we're all we all want the same
2:02:31thing. And I don't know you that well,
2:02:34Dell, but I I I I pride myself on being
2:02:37able to read people. And I've been
2:02:38talking to you for now for over two
2:02:40hours. And here's my takeaway on you. I
2:02:43believe you. I believe that you believe
2:02:47Darly is innocent and I respect the hell
2:02:49out of that because there's people I
2:02:50talk to who damn well know what happened
2:02:53and still will scream from the rooftops
2:02:55that they're innocent. And I I'll go out
2:02:57on a limb here and say that if you had
2:02:59proof if some world proof came out that
2:03:03said Darly did it, you would be the
2:03:05first one condemning her actions because
2:03:07I feel as a mother you're in it for the
2:03:09same thing. Yes. You're trying to prove
2:03:10that your sister's innocent, but they
2:03:12were your your nephews as well, and you
2:03:15want justice for them. And so,
2:03:17regardless of whether we agree or not, I
2:03:19think this was a super constructive,
2:03:22credible conversation from different
2:03:24sides talking about a case and at the
2:03:26core of it all wanting the same thing.
2:03:28And we were thinking this interview was
2:03:30going to be 30 minutes in a bigger
2:03:32episode. And we were already talking as
2:03:34you were talking saying, "This has got
2:03:36to be a full episode. We don't want to
2:03:37cut any of this out. We want everyone to
2:03:40be able to consume everything that we've
2:03:42talked about and come to their own
2:03:44opinions. That's what this is really
2:03:46about. Not coming in with preconceived
2:03:48notions, hearing people out and deciding
2:03:50whether you believe it or not. That's
2:03:52what it should be. Yeah. Obviously,
2:03:53we'll cut around mistakes and things,
2:03:55but I want I want it to be our key
2:03:57breaks for everybody out there. We'll
2:03:58cut around that. I I think the I think
2:04:00to have the solid just us talking back
2:04:02and forth so it doesn't even seem like
2:04:04we're like, oh, you know, we're you
2:04:05know, we're cutting out this part. I
2:04:07think that's the most important thing.
2:04:08We want you to be able to speak in full.
2:04:10And honestly, I respect the hell out of
2:04:12you. This is your sister. This is what,
2:04:14like I said, what I would do for my
2:04:16sister. I I feel the same way as Derek.
2:04:18Like I get, you know, I'm not I'm not
2:04:20like a detective, but I get impressions
2:04:23of people. Why you got to do it like
2:04:24that? Why you got to do it like that?
2:04:26I'm not a fancy detective, but I'm a
2:04:29human and I get like distinct
2:04:31impressions of people. I didn't feel
2:04:32like you were um trying to be, you know,
2:04:35hiding anything or that you're outright
2:04:38lying about anything. You have spent a
2:04:41lot of time and energy on this. This is
2:04:44important to you. And regardless, at the
2:04:47end of the day, what I think, what
2:04:49Dererick thinks, what anybody listening
2:04:51thinks, if Darly did not do this, I am
2:04:55putting all my thoughts and energy into
2:04:58hoping that she
2:05:00finds justice and and gets out and can
2:05:03rejoin her family. We we do not we're
2:05:06not the arbiters of what's true or or
2:05:09fake or who's guilty or who's innocent.
2:05:12And I know that you're fighting for her.
2:05:13You have a lot of people out there
2:05:15fighting for her. She's obviously
2:05:16fighting for herself and there's no ill
2:05:18will here if she is innocent and if she,
2:05:21you know, hopefully can can prove that I
2:05:24I will have I will be one of the first
2:05:26ones in line to congratulate you and her
2:05:28and say, you know, this is what happened
2:05:31because both Derek and I, there's never
2:05:33a time where we want to see anybody who
2:05:35is innocent sit in jail, not even for a
2:05:38day. So yeah, we we we're you know,
2:05:41we're we're glad we got to talk to you
2:05:43and I I think it was an important
2:05:44conversation and we wish you luck. Good.
2:05:47Dell, before you give your final words,
2:05:50where if somebody wants to contact you,
2:05:51if you're open to this, is there
2:05:53anywhere where people can contact you?
2:05:55Maybe they have stuff about the case.
2:05:56Who knows? Is there is there a certain
2:05:59line of communication that you would
2:06:01like people to use? Now listen, the only
2:06:03thing I'll say by putting it out there,
2:06:05there are obviously we talked off record
2:06:06that there are some people who don't
2:06:08necessarily agree with what you're doing
2:06:09and you speaking out. So maybe you don't
2:06:11want to share that information. If you
2:06:13don't, I'll just cut this part out. But
2:06:14if there's something you would like for
2:06:16a line of communication for people to
2:06:18reach you, you can you can say it here.
2:06:20Totally up to you. I would say that that
2:06:22all needs to go through the innocence
2:06:24project. I can't be the keeper of the
2:06:27leads. I mean, I do randomly get these
2:06:30crazy leads or, you know, random things
2:06:32get brought to my attention and that I
2:06:35always send it right to the Innocence
2:06:37Project. So, I would love for that to be
2:06:39part of that final statement. I will
2:06:42say, Stephanie, I wanted to just say you
2:06:45said that you would defend your sister
2:06:48no matter what and irregardless of guilt
2:06:52or innocence. And if you saw things that
2:06:55may lead to her guilt, you might choose
2:06:58to look over them. I don't think you
2:07:00would. No, no, no. I didn't I didn't say
2:07:02that. I said I couldn't I could never
2:07:05imagine like you could never tell me
2:07:08like I know my sister in my heart. I I
2:07:11was raised with her. Like we've been
2:07:13best friends since she was born. We've
2:07:15been inseparable. So like in my heart if
2:07:17somebody were to say she did this, I'd
2:07:19be like absolutely not. You'll never
2:07:21ever make me believe that. But I mean,
2:07:24if there was like video footage of her
2:07:26doing, you know, I'd be like, damn, I
2:07:28was wrong. But well, so I I may have
2:07:31misunderstood how you worded it, but the
2:07:34thought is still the same. I I 100%
2:07:38have drilled into every possible angle
2:07:42that could support Darly being guilty
2:07:45because first of all I don't want to be
2:07:48out making this whole yeah you don't
2:07:50want to be that person and I've seen
2:07:52those people so I understand that they
2:07:53they exist but I have scrutinized every
2:07:56angle I have bought textbooks I have
2:07:59read articles I have educated myself in
2:08:03every possible way to ensure that what
2:08:06I'm saying is absolute fact and or
2:08:11supported by fact. And I would
2:08:14regardless of what the outcome was or
2:08:17how we got there, I would love Darly no
2:08:20matter what because she is my sister.
2:08:22But I would never ever excuse her
2:08:24actions if that's what had happened. It
2:08:27has never ever once been even the
2:08:32tiniest inkling that Darly could be
2:08:35responsible for this. In my mind, it's
2:08:37never been possible. But as you grow up
2:08:40and as you age and as you see things,
2:08:42you realize I can't trust what I see all
2:08:45the time for what it really is. You have
2:08:46to really investigate it yourself. And
2:08:49like I was saying, I have spent an
2:08:52unknown amount of hours educating
2:08:54myself, researching things, looking at
2:08:56articles like facts and sources that are
2:08:59reliable sources. The National Institute
2:09:01of Justice, the District Attorney's
2:09:03Office, the um legal system, like all of
2:09:07it. I I have really tried hard and it
2:09:10still every single time it always goes
2:09:13back to it matches her story. It matches
2:09:16what she remembers and it matches what
2:09:19she said the first time she wrote a
2:09:21statement. It still matches what she
2:09:23said when she was on the stand. All of
2:09:26it still lines up and matches based on
2:09:29what we knew the next morning when we
2:09:32went in and saw her. Nothing has changed
2:09:35about what we heard then and what we
2:09:37know now. We still know how it unfolded
2:09:39based on Darly's story. And that story
2:09:41has been consistent for us. The hearsay
2:09:44back and forth. She told me this, she
2:09:46said that. But it in reality, none of
2:09:49that was even
2:09:51documented. Like you you can't you you
2:09:54can pull stuff from your memory and say
2:09:56it on stand, but you how do you expect
2:09:59for anybody to really truly trust what
2:10:02you're saying on the stand when what
2:10:04you're saying on the stand doesn't match
2:10:06what you documented in your notes or in
2:10:07your reports. So,
2:10:10it's very touchy and it is Oh, it's this
2:10:15is personal. It is very personal. It is
2:10:17my life. And and that's the thing.
2:10:19Regardless of what happened, it's
2:10:21affected you and your family
2:10:22exponentially and it it's something that
2:10:24will be a part of your life forever.
2:10:26Forever. And listen, uh we really
2:10:29appreciate you coming on. It takes a lot
2:10:30of guts to come on and do this. You I
2:10:33advised you to listen to part five
2:10:34before coming on. You said, "Yep, I'll
2:10:36do it." and yet you still showed up
2:10:38here. And I'll be honest with you, I
2:10:39didn't think you were going to show up.
2:10:41We were going back and forth with the
2:10:42text messages. I was like, she she she
2:10:44was a little cold feet already and I
2:10:46told you you don't have to come on. I'm
2:10:47like, she's not going to come. And and
2:10:50uh you showed up and I respect that. I
2:10:52respect it a lot. And I think uh you're
2:10:54going to have a lot of people who may
2:10:55disagree with you in the comments, but
2:10:57the fact that you're willing to put your
2:10:58your face out there and put your words
2:11:00behind how you feel, nobody can can say
2:11:03anything bad about that because not
2:11:05everyone would be willing to do it. I'm
2:11:07wishing the best for you. We are wishing
2:11:08the best for you and your family. And uh
2:11:10if something changes in this story,
2:11:13because it is a polarizing case, we will
2:11:15absolutely cover it. And if if it does
2:11:17something happen, maybe we'll have you
2:11:18back. Yeah. keep us updated on on, you
2:11:21know, how the Innocence Project is
2:11:23moving along and and what they're
2:11:24discovering and if there's new testing
2:11:26and stuff, keep us updated cuz we do
2:11:27crime weekly news, too, and we can throw
2:11:29that into an episode and just, you know,
2:11:31keep keep everyone in the loop. We
2:11:33definitely are hoping. It's It's hopeful
2:11:36and I have faith. the Innocence Project
2:11:38and the Dallas Conviction Integrity Unit
2:11:40are working hard at really drilling down
2:11:42into it. And it's easy for me to put
2:11:46myself out there whenever I know so
2:11:49wholeheartedly with every fiber of my
2:11:51being that I'm not fabricating anything.
2:11:55And it is what it is. And I try very
2:11:58very strongly to not present anything
2:12:01for anything that it's not. It is I I
2:12:05try to keep it just as it is exactly
2:12:07verbatim for what it's written as
2:12:09because it is very it gets into
2:12:12semantics and people twist things around
2:12:14and take one word out and it changes the
2:12:15whole story. So, but I do appreciate you
2:12:19guys covering this. Um even though you
2:12:21may have a different opinion than me. I
2:12:22realize that we are all adults. We can
2:12:24all agree to disagree. And hey, we're
2:12:26not the only ones, right? I mean, a jury
2:12:29a jury convicted her, you know? So, it's
2:12:30not like we're coming out of left field
2:12:31with this. It's easy to find someone
2:12:33guilty when you already know what the
2:12:35trial was come out with. However, I will
2:12:38say it is much harder to speak out
2:12:41against a verdict
2:12:44when you don't have any like legal
2:12:47course to support that determination. It
2:12:50is much easier to believe she's guilty
2:12:52than it is to put yourself in a world
2:12:55where some random person or maybe
2:12:58somebody that was connected to the
2:12:59family broke into their house, stabbed
2:13:01their the boys and Darly, and then gets
2:13:04away scot-free and then Darly gets put
2:13:07in jail for it. It that is such a scary
2:13:10concept for anybody to really put their
2:13:14brain around. Like, how do you even
2:13:16Well, why why are you saying that? Why
2:13:18you're saying that? because I corrected
2:13:19myself. I know we're going to keep going
2:13:21on. It's going to be a three-hour
2:13:22episode, but I corrected myself based on
2:13:24our messages where I had taken from I
2:13:26had interpreted as you suggesting Darren
2:13:28might be involved, but then we talked
2:13:30again. You emailed me. You were a little
2:13:31mad at me. I was mad. I just I I know
2:13:34there's other sources. She's just she's
2:13:36got boundaries. She was she was
2:13:38disappointed. She was disappointed. But
2:13:40what what do you think happened? We'll
2:13:42leave that. We'll end this episode with
2:13:44what you you've said you've covered it.
2:13:46You said you looked into it. You've
2:13:47researched it. you've lived it. What do
2:13:49you think happened? It's my best guess.
2:13:54I I lean on that there was two people
2:13:56involved in this whole process. There's
2:13:59a lot of stuff that could support that.
2:14:01Um there none of Devon's blood is on the
2:14:04murder weapon. The impression of a
2:14:06murder weapon on the carpet doesn't fit
2:14:08the murder weapon that was found. I
2:14:11think that that supports it. Devon's
2:14:12wounds are a little bit different in
2:14:14depth and in um width than what that
2:14:17murder weapon should have left. There's
2:14:19a lot of different things that makes me
2:14:21think there was two intruders. And it is
2:14:24very possible that one of two things
2:14:27happened. This was either Darren had a
2:14:30guy that worked close to him that had
2:14:32some insurance fraud in his past. Darren
2:14:35had a car stolen as part of his past.
2:14:39Maybe there was some communications.
2:14:40Darren admits that there was
2:14:42conversations about insurance fraud. Is
2:14:44it possible that someone just overheard
2:14:47this conversation, knew that Darly and
2:14:49Darren were planning on taking a trip to
2:14:51Pennsylvania and would be gone for 2
2:14:52weeks and maybe decided to go rogue and
2:14:56hit the house themselves? Darren's car's
2:14:59not there, so they must be at at must be
2:15:01at the airport, right? So then they
2:15:03break in and they see Darly's laying on
2:15:05the couch and from there it goes into
2:15:08okay, well, Darly's the only one here.
2:15:10I'll just take advantage of this
2:15:11situation. She was very um known for her
2:15:16appearance. She was beautiful and very
2:15:19very much a sex appeal in every form um
2:15:23for most people. Like maybe a a woman
2:15:25that that men would cover. Yes,
2:15:27definitely. And she was followed from
2:15:29the grocery store a few times by
2:15:31different people. she would be um
2:15:34approached by men like it it definitely
2:15:37when you see a pretty woman most the
2:15:39time you look at them and Darly
2:15:41definitely got that I think she was
2:15:43somewhat oblivious to a lot of that she
2:15:45didn't take any of that as serious as
2:15:48she should have and whoever like boys
2:15:51will be boys kind of exactly and she
2:15:53also trusted everybody so there was
2:15:55people in her life that were not good
2:15:56people and Baja Joll being one of them
2:15:59and she loved Baja and she included her
2:16:01in
2:16:02because she wasn't judgmental and she
2:16:04was inclusive and she loved everybody
2:16:06because everybody deserves love. But if
2:16:09this individual breaks in and you know
2:16:11say they've got a pocketk knife, they
2:16:12cut the screen, they come in because
2:16:14that window stayed open and they would
2:16:15have known that window was open. There's
2:16:17so much more I could go into on this,
2:16:19but to keep it short and sweet, the
2:16:22my opinion is that they came in with an
2:16:25intent to either rob the house for
2:16:28whatever was available, saw Darly laying
2:16:30on the couch, and then their motive
2:16:32switched, and it becomes maybe we can
2:16:35sexually assault her, or maybe we can
2:16:38essay her. Um, and then it it becomes
2:16:42Devon and Damon as collateral damage.
2:16:43One of them, one of these intruders
2:16:45steps on Devon or kicks Devon, whatever.
2:16:48You You can't see Damon because he's
2:16:50between the couch and the love seat just
2:16:52in a wall of blankets. They wouldn't
2:16:54have even known he was there. Devon was
2:16:56on a blanket and a pillow, but you could
2:16:59have probably overlooked him if you
2:17:01weren't like expecting a child to be
2:17:03down there. They step on Devon. He wakes
2:17:05up as they're killing him and there is
2:17:08some vertical drip of blood on him. So,
2:17:10he very well could have been upright at
2:17:12one point or another. Um, Damon, all of
2:17:15his ones are on his back, so he most
2:17:16likely was still asleep. A knife attack,
2:17:19the average time it takes is like 23
2:17:21seconds, so it was very fast. Darly then
2:17:24was attacked. And that's my opinion that
2:17:27that was the order it went in. Um, but
2:17:30you can't I can't really say for sure
2:17:33why it would have gone that way. Um, but
2:17:35I do think that the motive changed from
2:17:38potentially robbing the house to
2:17:40assaulting Darly. Yeah. I mean, and her
2:17:42panties being missing are a big factor
2:17:45for me because she they did they do a a
2:17:48rape kit on her? They at that No, they
2:17:50didn't. At that point in time, it says
2:17:52it in here. Hold on. So, there's been
2:17:54several things that I've heard you quote
2:17:55that are not from the transcript or from
2:17:58the trial itself. So, a lot of people do
2:18:01that. They pull things out of articles
2:18:02or they pull things from other sites or
2:18:05whatever or they trust the source and
2:18:07what they're given is not necessarily
2:18:10100% fact. She had a vaginal exam, a
2:18:12speculum exam. They swabbed her. There
2:18:15was no evidence of any trauma to her
2:18:19lady bits. Did not have a rape exam
2:18:21because rape exams at that point in time
2:18:23were only conducted at Parkland
2:18:25Hospital. And Darly wasn't able to get
2:18:28up and walk out and go to Parkland
2:18:29Hospital to have an exam. No, but they
2:18:31did they did conduct a vaginal swab.
2:18:32They did a vaginal swab. There was not
2:18:34any um STDs found and I don't think that
2:18:38they actually looked at those for semen,
2:18:42but there is no documentation that there
2:18:44was semen found in her vaginal canal.
2:18:47Okay. One I have one question, Denal.
2:18:50What do you make of Darren going to the
2:18:52old house and asking the homeowner if
2:18:54the screens had been cut? And I couldn't
2:18:57find this anywhere. How long had it been
2:19:00since Darly and um Darren moved from the
2:19:03old house to the new house? Like what
2:19:05was that passage of time between how
2:19:07long they'd been at the new house? I'm
2:19:08I'm not 100% sure. I want to say it was
2:19:11less than three years, probably closer
2:19:12to two years. And I think that I I can't
2:19:16speak for Darren. I don't know exactly
2:19:20what the rationale was. I'm I'm thinking
2:19:23that it probably was suggested by the
2:19:26defense attorney to go check those
2:19:28screens to see if they were missing any
2:19:30screens or if there was any damage to
2:19:31the screens or I I don't know why or
2:19:34what the thought process behind that
2:19:36was. I will say this, when we were going
2:19:39through all this, people were like
2:19:42vultures and they wanted to talk to us
2:19:45and they wanted to hear things that we
2:19:47had to say and sometimes things were
2:19:50misrepresented because they felt like
2:19:53Darly was guilty. So then all they hear
2:19:56is what they wanted to hear and then
2:19:58they repeat it with that lens, that lens
2:20:00that I was talking about. they repeat
2:20:02what they remember through their lens
2:20:05and it doesn't always reflect an
2:20:08accurate picture of what was said or the
2:20:10questions that were asked. And so I
2:20:12don't know about that because I wasn't
2:20:14there, the person that repeated all of
2:20:17that. I don't know how she felt about
2:20:19the case or what she thought or what her
2:20:21motives were. And I don't know why
2:20:23Darren would have gone to look at those
2:20:26other than by um direction from maybe
2:20:29the lawyers. That's the only thing I can
2:20:31think of. Do you still talk to Darren?
2:20:33Does Darren still associate with Darly
2:20:36in prison? Like, is he still um He
2:20:38doesn't really have any direct contact
2:20:40with her, but Darren is like my brother.
2:20:42He was around me from the time I was in
2:20:44diapers and will always be part of my
2:20:48family and I love him very much. And I
2:20:51100% don't believe that he had any
2:20:53intentions or any known connection to
2:20:57this crime taking place. I think that if
2:21:00he did or if there was any known
2:21:02connection, he would have been like,
2:21:03"Peace out, y'all. I'm done with this."
2:21:06And never looked again. But he didn't.
2:21:08And so that really does support the
2:21:11thought that he is 100% oblivious to any
2:21:14answers and that he along with Darly are
2:21:17innocent of anything that could have
2:21:19connected them to purposely killing
2:21:21their children. I I will say that I said
2:21:23it in the the series multiple times.
2:21:25There's evidence in there that doesn't
2:21:27align with them both being involved.
2:21:29It's either it's either one party or an
2:21:31outside party because there's evidence
2:21:32in there that where at points there is a
2:21:35little bit of a conflict this
2:21:36conflicting statements minor ones
2:21:37between Darren and and and Darly and if
2:21:39they were working together would have
2:21:40been spot on. That wouldn't happen. They
2:21:42would have known every detail to explain
2:21:45every piece of evidence. Absolutely
2:21:47agree with that. Listen, we appreciate
2:21:48you coming on. Everyone laying down in
2:21:51the comments. If you're watching on
2:21:52YouTube, let us know what you think. If
2:21:54you're on audio, you can leave a review.
2:21:55Tell us what you think. Dell, I we
2:21:57really do appreciate you coming on. I
2:21:59hope that we allowed you the opportunity
2:22:01to give you You said it. You said it
2:22:02multiple times. You have so much you
2:22:03could talk about. This is your whole
2:22:04life. Um, but I think we covered a lot
2:22:06of ground. And if people want to reach
2:22:08out to the Innocence Project, they now
2:22:09have that information. Guys, we will be
2:22:11back next week. We're going to do an
2:22:13additional part on the series because we
2:22:15had a whole episode planned out. We
2:22:17thought this interview was going to be
2:22:18short. We're not going to cut any of it
2:22:20out, but we're going to do a whole
2:22:22episode, which Dell, you all appreciate
2:22:23this, an episode on not only maybe some
2:22:26of the things that you believe in, but
2:22:28some of the other theories that have
2:22:29been put out there, some of the other
2:22:30evidence has been that's been dissected
2:22:32to suggest that Darly is innocent. So,
2:22:35we're going to do a whole episode on it
2:22:36and let you guys come to your final
2:22:38conclusions on this one. Um, but again,
2:22:40Danell, thank you for joining us. Uh,
2:22:42stay safe out there. That's what I say
2:22:43to everybody. So, we we'll talk to you
2:22:45soon. Thank you so much.
2:22:46I will for sure and I do really honestly
2:22:48appreciate you guys covering it because
2:22:50talking about it puts it out there again
2:22:52and that's what we need. Absolutely. So
2:22:54thank you guys so much. Thank you. Bye.
2:22:57Okay. So that was our conversation with
2:23:00Denell really illuminating really you
2:23:02know we we continued to have differences
2:23:05opinion throughout the conversation. Um,
2:23:08but I thought like as Dererick had told
2:23:10Dell in in the episode, it was just
2:23:12great to know that even though we stood
2:23:14on opposite sides of the issue, we could
2:23:17still be respectful and open and listen
2:23:19to each other and communicate without
2:23:21any, you know, resentment or anger. She
2:23:24really held herself in in such a great
2:23:27and respectable way. We're so glad she
2:23:29came on the the show to talk to us. We
2:23:32give her a lot of respect for that.
2:23:34Yeah. Takes a lot of courage to do that.
2:23:36100%. And you know, there there was a
2:23:37part of me that was like, "Okay, she's
2:23:39going to come on and she's going to be
2:23:40some crazy person and she's going to be
2:23:41throwing out these random theories." No,
2:23:43a lot of what this comes down to is
2:23:45there's evidence and there's the
2:23:47interpretation of that evidence. And we
2:23:49were talking about the same things in
2:23:50that interview, but her opinion on what
2:23:53it meant was completely different. And
2:23:55then, you know, you do see it in some
2:23:56cases where when the evidence is very
2:23:59incriminating, it goes back to uh law
2:24:01enforcement corruption or mishandling of
2:24:04the evidence. It can never just be that
2:24:05the evidence is incriminating, you know?
2:24:07It's all, oh, the fibers on the knife
2:24:09had to be crossam contamination. It
2:24:11can't just be what it looks like, which
2:24:13is that she used the knife to cut the
2:24:16screen. But there was some fascinating
2:24:17stuff in there. I I concede the the fact
2:24:19that there are some pieces of evidence
2:24:21that we don't know entirely what it
2:24:22means. The the the bloody fingerprint,
2:24:25the sock, we can't explain it perfectly,
2:24:27but my me leaving the episode and I went
2:24:29into it with an open mind. I had a lot
2:24:32of questions. some of them. She didn't
2:24:34give me an answer that swayed me. I
2:24:35think there's things about uh Darly
2:24:38sleeping through the attack, through the
2:24:40stabbing, through the uh bruising,
2:24:41through all this this assault that
2:24:43occurred and yet waking up right when
2:24:45Damon taps her as the offender is
2:24:47walking away. So, she doesn't wake up
2:24:49for anything and then she wakes up just
2:24:51by the subtle tap from her son just in
2:24:53time to see the back of her of the
2:24:55intruder. to me. I don't know about you
2:24:58guys, but if I'm sleeping and someone
2:25:00pinches my arm or punches me in the face
2:25:02or stabs me in the neck, I'm going to
2:25:04wake up at least during because this
2:25:05wasn't just one stab wound. This was
2:25:08multiple wounds. So, how does that
2:25:10happen? And she just sleeps right
2:25:12through it. That to me right there is a
2:25:15big problem. And then like I said to her
2:25:16in the episode, the differences in the
2:25:19the wounds to both Damon and Devon and
2:25:22then her, not even about left or right,
2:25:24you know, dominant arm, non-dominant
2:25:26arm, the the intent behind the injuries
2:25:28were totally different. Now, she put
2:25:31presented a theory of this was a robbery
2:25:33that went turned into a murder that then
2:25:36turned into a possible sexual assault,
2:25:38but then an attempted murder. I'm not
2:25:40going to sit here and discredit
2:25:41everything she said because she's no
2:25:43longer here, but I think that's a
2:25:45stretch. I think it's much more likely
2:25:47that it's exactly what it looks like to
2:25:49me, which is she was going through some
2:25:51stuff and for some reason in her mind
2:25:54she felt that she the the world was
2:25:56better off or they were better off
2:25:57without Damon and Devon in it. We're not
2:26:00going to be able to rationalize that,
2:26:01but that's that's what I think happened.
2:26:03I think there wasn't I don't know if
2:26:04there was a financial motive behind it.
2:26:06I don't know any of that. I think
2:26:08ultimately she just felt like this was
2:26:10the right thing for everybody in her
2:26:12life. That doesn't make sense. That's
2:26:15that's what I come to. And and there's a
2:26:17lot of evidence to suggest that with the
2:26:19with the glass and and the screen and
2:26:21the blood and the lack of blood on the
2:26:23couch where she was assaulted. And then
2:26:25also, you know, the fact that she said
2:26:26it was a uh they might have came in as a
2:26:29robbery. So, you would think they come
2:26:31in for the robbery, but then they
2:26:32realize that there are people there when
2:26:34they didn't expect them to be there. At
2:26:36that point, they could easily turn
2:26:37around and leave. And yet, no. They come
2:26:39in, they say, "Hey, there's three people
2:26:41down here. Possibly Darren upstairs, but
2:26:45we're going to assault his wife on the
2:26:46couch while the kids are right next
2:26:48there, right next or even just one kid
2:26:49cuz they couldn't see the other one. And
2:26:51potentially Darren's upstairs now, but
2:26:53we're going to do all this and it's
2:26:54going to be fine." But then before doing
2:26:56it, they possibly kick one of the
2:26:58children and decide, "Oh, now we have to
2:27:00kill them." And in the process, we're
2:27:02going to stab her, too. But we're not
2:27:04going to stab her in a way that would
2:27:06definitively without a doubt kill her
2:27:08like we did the two little boys. And
2:27:10then we're not even going to SA her
2:27:13because now we don't have time because
2:27:15we've stabbed everyone and we're not
2:27:16going to steal all the jewelry that was
2:27:17sitting. We're not going to take
2:27:18anything. And we're doing all this not
2:27:20knowing if someone's upstairs. So, it's
2:27:23a it's a lot to believe. I'm not saying
2:27:25this to discredit her. I'm just saying
2:27:27when she says that theory, that is
2:27:29something that you have to consider. And
2:27:31I think a lot of you will. But overall,
2:27:33it was a good conversation. She's she
2:27:35knows a lot about the case and I think
2:27:37that I hope we did it justice. She said
2:27:39sent everything over. We researched what
2:27:41she said and we did the best we could
2:27:43with it. And ultimately, it's up to you
2:27:45guys to decide what you believe, but
2:27:47really it's up to the courts. You know,
2:27:50they've already decided on what it is.
2:27:51So, you'd have to present compelling
2:27:53enough evidence to open this case back
2:27:55up and to bring it back into court or to
2:27:58at least have the police department
2:28:00relook at everything. And I don't think
2:28:02that's going to happen. But any final
2:28:04words from you on this one as far as I
2:28:06mean it was a long episode, but any
2:28:08takeaway that you remember that you
2:28:09wanted to bring up before we close this
2:28:10one out? No, I'm excited to to jump into
2:28:13the episode next week and kind of go
2:28:15through everything and at that point
2:28:16we'll have all the information right
2:28:18both for her and against her and we can
2:28:21um give, you know, our final thoughts
2:28:23and as much with as much information as
2:28:26we possibly can have. I think we've all
2:28:28agreed no one knows what happened here.
2:28:30it the mind boggles. We can't figure out
2:28:33a motive because there just doesn't seem
2:28:35to be one that that that makes sense to
2:28:37anyone. So, I am looking forward to kind
2:28:39of getting all the information and then
2:28:41giving final thoughts once and for all.
2:28:43Agreed. Agreed. Everyone who's watched
2:28:45this video or listened on audio, if you
2:28:48if you I don't want to I always hate to
2:28:50say the word liked, but if you
2:28:52appreciate what we do and you want to
2:28:54keep supporting us, like, comment down
2:28:56below. It might not seem like a lot. It
2:28:58only takes a couple seconds, but it
2:29:00means a lot to us because it it it it
2:29:02allows us to move up in the algorithm
2:29:04for YouTube and it even helps us on
2:29:06audio. The reviews are so huge because
2:29:08basically the way these platforms work
2:29:10is they look to see who's engaging with
2:29:13the content and then decide which which
2:29:15uh episodes to promote. So, we would
2:29:17greatly appreciate uh that if you did
2:29:19that for us. But yes, we will be back
2:29:21next week with Darly Rutier part seven.
2:29:26Yep. Absolutely. and we will see you
2:29:27then. Thank you so much. And once again,
2:29:29thank you to Denell for being here with
2:29:30us. Everybody try to, you know, in the
2:29:33same way we had a conversation with her.
2:29:34If you don't agree with her, if you do,
2:29:36just be respectful and have an open.
2:29:38That's the way you do it. Yep. Guys,
2:29:40stay safe out there. We'll see you next
2:29:41week. Bye.
2:29:42[Music]
2:29:50[Music]

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