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Danny Goler - Apple Vision Pro May Have Captured Something We CAN'T Explain | SRS #320 — Transcript

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0:05Danny Gouller, welcome to the show, man.
0:08>> Sean, thank you so much for having me.
0:10>> My pleasure.
0:12So, I had Chase Hughes on and he brought
0:14up this uh laser DMT kind of experiment.
0:18I don't even know what we call it, but
0:20really caught my attention. Love Chase
0:22Hughes, too, by the way.
0:23>> He's a great guy. He's a good friend.
0:24Yeah. And then uh and then we had this
0:27reel that like went viral about the DMT
0:30laser thing and uh our mutual friend
0:33Rich, I'll leave his last name out of
0:35it, but he texted me right away. He's
0:37like, "Holy you know Danny?" And I
0:39was like, "No, I don't." And he's like,
0:40"You got to meet him D." And um so,
0:44dude, I'm I'm uh stoked you're here.
0:46Thank you so much for having me. I
0:47appreciate that.
0:48>> My pleasure. My pleasure. But um yeah,
0:52let me start you off with an
0:53introduction because uh I know once we
0:55get into this thing, it's just going to
0:56go. But
0:58>> this is water, right?
0:59>> This is that's water.
1:01>> Danny Gouller, you're an independent
1:03researcher and the founder of Code of
1:06Reality, an interdisciplinary initiative
1:09exploring what you call co cognitive
1:11physics, the intersection where mind and
1:14matter meet. Through code of reality,
1:16you bring together scientists,
1:18philosophers, technologists, and
1:20indigenous wisdomkeepers to investigate
1:23the relationship between consciousness
1:25and the nature of reality. Ultimately,
1:28your goal is to advance a more holistic
1:32science of consciousness, one that can
1:34exist alongside and complement
1:37mainstream physics. It's going to be an
1:40awesome interview.
1:41Um, so before we get started, a couple
1:44things real quick. Everybody gets a
1:46gift.
1:47>> Let's go. Thank you so much.
1:48>> Vigilance Elite Gummy Bears. There's no
1:51DMT in those unfortunately,
1:53>> but they are legal in all 50 states.
1:55>> Thank you.
1:56>> And uh, made in Michigan. And then I
1:59have a Patreon account. You familiar
2:02with Patreon?
2:02>> Of course. Yeah, I have a little YouTube
2:04channel. So, yeah, I also have a little
2:05Patreon.
2:06>> Oh, nice. Um, so Patreon, they're the
2:10reason I get to sit down here with you
2:11today and they've been with us since the
2:13beginning. So they get the opportunity
2:15to ask every single guest a question.
2:17>> Sure thing.
2:19>> So this is from JB. Christians believe
2:22there are angels and demons among us.
2:25Some people claim to have seen them. Is
2:27there any evidence in your research with
2:29DMT that this spirit realm exists? And
2:33do you believe in angels and demons?
2:36Yeah, that's a it's a great question.
2:40Um, the short answer is yes.
2:44Um, but I don't think that the nature of
2:46those is as straightforward as people
2:48think.
2:49>> So, it's clear to me at this point that
2:52way more exist than just the realm that
2:54we're perceiving. And, you know, for
2:56religious people, this is not a surprise
2:58because they do believe that there's a
2:59realm beyond. And in fact, this whole
3:02life is some form of, you know, getting
3:06into the right place with the right uh
3:08with the right people. Um, so I think
3:11that with DMT, it's a little bit more
3:14surprising than people would expect
3:16because what you see is not necessarily
3:17the kind of classical, you know, demonic
3:20versus angelic. It's more like a very
3:23large array of species that you
3:25experience. And you can, it doesn't
3:28always happen. Uh, but if you do, then
3:31there's all kinds, including what I
3:33guess you would call demonic and
3:35angelic. I've experienced both, by the
3:37way. Really?
3:37>> So, yeah. But you also have the
3:39insectoids, the um uh the uh the
3:43reptilians, uh the jokers. There's all
3:46kinds of and they're very clearly
3:48distinct from one another. So, they're
3:50very different. Um but yes,
3:55that that demonic part and the angelic
3:57part, they're also there. I would say
3:59though that one of the things that I've
4:00I've seen is that they actually coexist,
4:02so to speak. So, it's almost like if you
4:04want to use like um like a very dumb
4:07down uh kind of example,
4:10if they're going to work on a bus,
4:12they're all kind of like just sitting
4:13together. Like there's no like
4:14segregation in that way,
4:16>> but everybody are still following some
4:19rules. Sometimes somebody's trying to
4:21break the rules, but even what you would
4:23call the demonic entities. Uh we just
4:26had some conversation about this with
4:28your crew about like um sleep paralysis
4:30for example where people feel like like
4:32a demon is sitting on their chest or
4:33something like this, right?
4:36Or a witch or something like this. And I
4:38was saying that very often if you have
4:39these like darker experiences,
4:41especially if you're a religious person,
4:43you can set up a very clear boundary.
4:45You can say say things like in the name
4:47of Jesus Christ I'm setting a boundary
4:50right here or in my body and nothing is
4:52allowed to but you have to state it. So
4:53you have to invoke the boundary and you
4:55have to be clear about that. The second
4:57you do that something happens. It's
4:59almost like they're incapable of
5:00entering it anymore or they're not
5:02allowed to to such a degree that it's
5:05almost like nobody wants to find out
5:07what happens if you cross that line. So
5:10I would say that yes, I've seen that
5:13kind of stuff. But at the same time
5:14there are things that we can be in
5:16relationship to that can actually create
5:18a very clear boundary between us and it
5:21because the agency the the importance of
5:25the sovereignty of every free agent in
5:27existence is is basically almost like a
5:30holy thing like nothing can ever
5:32penetrate that boundary. So I don't know
5:34if that answers the question.
5:36>> That's interesting. What what were the I
5:38wasn't planning on going into all this
5:40right off the bat, but you'd mentioned
5:42angelic demonic, then something else,
5:46then reptilians, and then something
5:47>> insectoids. Reptilians. Yeah.
5:48>> What are insect? What? Hold on. What is
5:50that?
5:51>> Yeah. So, like this is where if we're
5:54going to this is not how I would
5:56introduce this the topic for sure, but
5:58we're doing this for Patreon, right?
5:59This is for
6:00>> Well, we do you want to go into it
6:02later? just because that if you start
6:04there, it will I I think it will
6:07actually turn a lot of people off
6:09because it's way too deep immediately
6:11and people like it's just too crazy for
6:13them.
6:14>> Yeah, let's save it. Yeah, we'll get
6:16there.
6:16>> So, okay, let's start it off.
6:21>> How did you get introduced to DMT?
6:23>> I was looking for it. So, I was already
6:26a very experienced psychonaut. Um, not
6:29something I recommend anyone does, but I
6:31started doing uh like acid when I was 11
6:34and then I never Yeah, I was a I was a
6:37wild kid and I did it throughout my life
6:40quite a bit and then by the time I was
6:42in 2010
6:45uh that's when I found EMT for the first
6:47time. So like I found I heard about it I
6:49think 2006 or something I heard uh it
6:52was a Joe Rogan rant on some Ohio radio
6:55show. it it was before he had the show
6:57or anything and he was just raving about
6:59it and I was like what is that like I've
7:02done so many psychedelics I've never
7:04heard of DMT I had to find out because
7:07there was a line that Joe said that
7:09grabbed my attention beyond anything he
7:11said it doesn't feel like you're in
7:13another dimension you are in another in
7:16another dimension and I knew exactly
7:18what he meant by that I was like okay I
7:20got to find out whatever that is and I
7:22tried to find it couldn't find it I
7:24lived in Indianapolis apolis back then.
7:26I tried to make it uh not very
7:30successfully. Uh and then only when I
7:33arrived in California is when I managed
7:35to actually find it finally. And then I
7:37tried and tried and tried. It actually
7:39didn't work for me like 10 times. And I
7:41kept on trying. And back in the day, it
7:42was it was pretty a pretty gnarly thing
7:46to do because you didn't have the luxury
7:48of like vape pens and things like this.
7:49It was just like a basically a crackpipe
7:52and you just smoked this thing and it
7:53was like smoking glass. It was awful.
7:56Um, and eventually it worked and sure
7:59enough it delivered on every front. So
8:02to anybody who doesn't know, DMT stands
8:04for dimethylryptoamine and it's
8:06essentially a neurom modulator that a
8:08lot of living things have including
8:10humans. We make it. So our our lungs
8:12make it. Uh, some portions of your brain
8:14synthesize it. And if you smoke it, so
8:19if you take more into your system, it
8:21produces an effect that doesn't feel
8:24like the effect of a drug because in
8:26every substance that you use, alcohol,
8:28weed, doesn't matter. You feel that
8:30something is being done to the machinery
8:32of your psychology. Like you're changing
8:34clearly, like you feel different, right?
8:36With DMT, it doesn't really feel like
8:38that. You're not changing. the world is
8:42completely in such ways that really begs
8:46the question whether what you're seeing
8:47is a hallucination or actually coming
8:49from somewhere. The the realism of it um
8:53is is not something you're familiar with
8:55and that is why it captivates so much of
8:59so many people's imagination around the
9:00world including scientists who are now
9:03studying the substance under the
9:04question of whether it's actually real.
9:06So you know in as a small side tangent
9:09most psychedelic research rev revolves
9:13around the question of therapy right
9:15therapeutic like can you get over
9:17addiction PTSD things like this but DMT
9:20specifically and NDMT is being studied
9:23through the lens of wait a second
9:27are we interacting with an actual place
9:30so that's that's the front and center
9:32question in some of the research
9:33programs
9:34>> like the Imperial College in London
9:36So this is being taken seriously and
9:38I've actually I just came from a
9:40conference in LA where uh Andrew
9:42Gallamore Dr. Andrew Galammore who's
9:44kind of one of the more known uh
9:46psychedelic researchers as a
9:48neuroscientist and a and a computational
9:51neuropharmacologist
9:53um and um and Donald Hoffman I don't
9:56know if you have you heard of Donald
9:57Hoffman
9:58>> sounds familiar
9:58>> yeah so he's the guy who's basically
10:01grocked this way of uh investigating
10:04consciousness from a mathematical
10:05perspective and his claim is that when
10:08we look at the the the mathematical
10:11models modeling agents in any
10:14environment. We discover that there is
10:16no way that agents are aware of the
10:19world for what it really is. And he
10:20found a mathematical framework to
10:23describe consciousness. And they just
10:24collaborated. It it felt like an
10:26inflection in history. Uh because they
10:28use psychedelics as a use as a as a test
10:32case where they can test Donald
10:34Hoffman's theories. Basically there's
10:37something they call um I think it's
10:39called experience kernel which is
10:40basically a mathematical object that you
10:42can basically kind of spin around and it
10:43contains um it contains other
10:48mathematical object called tra trace uh
10:50logic which is basic and what they're
10:52showing is that by changing the if I
10:56understood it correctly by changing the
10:58the experience kernel you can determine
11:01or predict what kind of an experience
11:03people could have. So they're now using
11:05psychedelics to test this and it so this
11:08has t been taken seriously by very
11:11prominent known scientists. Uh and uh
11:15it's encouraging because up until maybe
11:17a decade ago this was considered just
11:20fringe thinking insanity you know and
11:23now all of a sudden it's being taken a
11:24lot more seriously.
11:25>> Wow.
11:26>> Yeah.
11:26>> What is the I mean I've done 5 MO DMT
11:30I've done psilocybin I gain MDMA. You're
11:33pretty experienced.
11:34>> I think that's it. I've never done DMT.
11:37>> Mhm.
11:37>> Or anything other than 5 MO. DMT is it?
11:40What What is the Have you done five?
11:43>> Yeah. So, the first thing to say is that
11:44you've done the top. Like, I don't think
11:46you can have a bigger experience than 5
11:48MO. That's it's it's as big as it gets,
11:51right? You're basically in the presence
11:53of something divine and you're being
11:54washed over with this ocean of white
11:56light and you just fully dissolve. But
11:59with DMT, even though it it's also big,
12:02I wouldn't say it's as, you know, like
12:05it can be, but it's it's not as
12:07hard-hitting as 5 MO, but it's
12:09surprising in a different it can be
12:10shocking in a different way in that you
12:14experience a lot of new content. So,
12:17just like, you know, you wake up from a
12:18dream, let's say a very realistic dream,
12:21and in the dream you were convinced that
12:23you knew that person or you had that job
12:25or whatever it is that you were doing.
12:27Then you wake up and you go, "Oh, wait,
12:29right, that was a dream." Okay, well
12:31imagine that one level up from this.
12:34Imagine waking up from here and going,
12:36"Wait, what?" Like, "Oh, right. That was
12:39a dream." But for real. Imagine that for
12:42real. So that's kind of like what DMT
12:44feels like.
12:45>> So it's very shocking. And also the
12:47content you experience is uh very weird.
12:51It's it's uh it's of a kind that you
12:53didn't even know was possible to
12:55experience. So it can be, you know,
12:58shocking in that regard, but but it's,
13:00you know, it's a very different kind of
13:02experience than five. Interesting.
13:05So, I know you've discussed this
13:07probably a thousand times by now, but
13:10how did the laser I mean the the whole
13:13reason that you caught my attention was
13:15Chase Hughes talking about on DMT you
13:18can shine a red laser on a wall and
13:21you'll see code
13:22>> and then you can look through the laser
13:24through different angles and see more
13:27code.
13:28>> Yeah. And as you move the laser, the co
13:30the it moves on to different code. And I
13:34was watching some of your stuff earlier
13:36and it's somebody was describing it like
13:38a flashlight. Like if you signed a
13:40shined a flashlight in the wall, you
13:42would just see code, but it's
13:46>> it's there but it's not there. And
13:48you've had I think over 2,000 people
13:50witness the same thing.
13:51>> At this point, it's thousands. Yeah. Um,
13:54so the way I arrived at it, there's a
13:56there's a movie that we're going to be,
13:57uh, well, we're already at the end of
13:58it, so we're in the process of selling
14:00it now. Uh, it's called The Discovery by
14:03Aaron Vendon, the director. Huge shout
14:05out to Aaron. He's incredible. And, um,
14:08so the full story is going to be in that
14:10movie. Um, but the general gist of it
14:13was that I've had a certain kind of
14:15experience, even though everything I
14:17just told you about the empty, I've had
14:19a kind of experience on it that was even
14:20more real than that. in that it was just
14:23a being that appeared in front of me or
14:25to the side of me as real as you, but he
14:29was like this hybrid between like a like
14:31a some kind of an amphibian, a frog or a
14:33lizard or something like a combination.
14:36But just take yourself through this for
14:38a second, right? If you're willing to
14:40just follow me there and and not kind of
14:43because there's always these
14:44assumptions, right? If if if a person
14:46doesn't know who I am, like who knows
14:48why people tell you what they tell you,
14:49right? They confabulate, they lie, who
14:51knows, right? But if you're willing to
14:53follow me there, just imagine what it
14:55would be like to all of a sudden this
14:56happened to you. Like like an alien
14:59appears right next to you as real as a
15:01person and nothing else is happening.
15:04There's no like psychedelic explosion,
15:06none of that.
15:08I mean, at that moment, I just I was
15:10like, "Oh my like
15:13like I really did it this time, right?"
15:16And then he showed me how to play chords
15:18on a guitar that I didn't know how to
15:20do. So essentially, he was telling me,
15:23I'm real because I'm giving you
15:25information you don't have. Currently,
15:27you don't know how to play these chords.
15:28I'm telling you how to do that. So I
15:31knew that in that moment, I knew that
15:32nothing will ever be the same again
15:34because I knew that even though I can't
15:35really prove this to anyone right now,
15:38for me, I know for a fact that this is
15:40not a hallucination. It can't be. It's
15:42so specific. It's so realistic. and he's
15:45giving me information that I don't have.
15:48Now the journey be became how do I prove
15:52this to others? How do we talk about
15:54this in a way that science can actually
15:56get its hands on because science deals
15:58with things that are measurable and
15:59repeatable? So then for years I spent
16:03trying to figure out how that can be
16:04done. So there was all kinds of ways in
16:07which I was thinking about it. But I I
16:08figured okay because the problem seems
16:11to be so insurmountable we have to think
16:13from the most fundamental principles we
16:15can. So almost like a physicist and I
16:18thought okay what do I know? I know that
16:20light is involved because I can see the
16:23content with my eyes. Now obviously the
16:24brain is involved a lot but what is
16:27happening with light that carries that
16:29information to me right? And then I
16:32thought what else do we know? We know
16:34that if the space is real, like existing
16:36on its own side, that means it must have
16:39a geometry. It must have a topology. It
16:41must have rules, its own laws of
16:42physics, even if they're not our laws of
16:44physics. And then for some reason, I had
16:47this very strong intuition that told me
16:48that there has to be a boundary because
16:51we sometimes see it, sometimes we don't
16:53see it. Right? So that fact alone, this
16:55binary tells me that we penetrate some
16:57kind of a boundary somewhere. And I was
16:59interested in that boundary. I asked
17:01myself what can we find that boundary
17:05because I my intuition was that even
17:07though a lot of people report similar
17:09things on DMT you know very often people
17:11report the same beings or something like
17:12this but how do you really know it's the
17:15same my question was can we in real time
17:19reliably see the same thing like at the
17:22same time and that was my guiding
17:24question and it took me years I I didn't
17:26really like arrive at it right right
17:28away I tried all kinds of things I read
17:29a bunch of papers I was thinking about
17:31it and eventually through a very kind of
17:33this windy road I somehow arrived at
17:36this conclusion that somehow defraction
17:39defracted light defracted laser is
17:41supposed to do something. I wasn't even
17:42sure what but I tried it and here it
17:46was. There was literally like a code
17:48that is running in the surface. It's on
17:50every single surface. When people see
17:52it, they immediately get shocked because
17:54you don't even need a grand or or a
17:57study or anyone else to see it. The
17:59second you see it, it's as real as this
18:02bottle right there. Like it's just there
18:03and you it's very clear to you. And that
18:06realism is what you were describing.
18:07Like when you move the light, it's
18:09moving around it just like you would,
18:10you know, put a flashlight in the dark
18:12and just and just reveal an object
18:15basically. So that's that's essentially
18:17how I got to it. And it took me about I
18:20would say about 5 years, 6 years, the
18:21whole process.
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19:58>> What do you mean it took 5 years to six
20:00years
20:00>> of thinking about it? Like I I didn't
20:02figure out right away. I was thinking
20:03about this for for years and years and
20:05years. I was trying to figure it out.
20:07>> When's the first time you saw it?
20:09>> Uh 2019, I think.
20:12>> What how can you describe that? the
20:15seeing it. So it was time or maybe 2020.
20:18I don't remember exactly. I should
20:19probably go and look at my pictures
20:20because I have everything is cat
20:22cataloged. Um
20:24>> so it was basically and actually my my
20:27now wife was instrumental in figuring it
20:29out. So there's this is where it kind of
20:31gets into this a little murky territory
20:33because whenever I tell this part of the
20:35story, a lot of my friends who are
20:37actual scientists always uh encourage me
20:41to remove this part of the story. They
20:43say, "Danny, I love you, but the second
20:45you tell me this, I didn't say it yet,
20:47but I'm just prefacing this this part
20:49with this." They say, "I I I just
20:51stopped listening to you. I I can't
20:52listen to this because it's just you
20:55just sound like a madman at that point,
20:57but I can't pretend like that's not how
20:59it happened." So, that that's what it
21:01was. Uh signs started appearing just
21:06literally like I would walk and there
21:08would be this like number that appears
21:10on the ground. Right. When I'm thinking
21:11about this, a very specific number and I
21:13would like put it into Spotlight on a
21:15Mac and it would match a physics paper
21:18that matches the subject matter that I
21:20was thinking. It was just like these
21:21wild things. And obviously I knew you
21:24mean this is before you saw it?
21:27>> This is when Yeah. Yeah. This is I'm I'm
21:28telling you like how I got to it, right?
21:30So the day that I that I saw it was was
21:32through this through this chain of
21:34causation where I started seeing these
21:36little signs that kind of led me to it
21:39and it was coupled with me thinking
21:40about it logically obviously but there
21:42was like a lot of kind of help right the
21:44kind of somebody was kind of guiding me
21:45towards it. Um so the day I figured it
21:48out I was with my wife and one of these
21:51synchronistic moments happened to both
21:53of us
21:54>> up until
21:55>> the what
21:56>> at the same time.
21:57>> Yes. So basically I told her about it
21:59before just like I'm telling you now and
22:01even though you're open to hear me out
22:04really until you see it for yourself
22:06it's just kind of like cool story bro
22:08like but who knows right so she was
22:11obviously in the same camp like I told
22:12her what was happening but she's like
22:14okay what can I do with this right but
22:16then something happened to both of us so
22:18she she got shocked she was like oh my
22:21god I was like yeah I told you like it's
22:23really happening and I you know I
22:25cataloged all of this and then She
22:27immediately, you know, changed and she
22:30was like, "Okay, okay, okay. Show, show,
22:31show me what you were telling me."
22:32Because she wasn't really listening
22:33before. She was like, "Okay, now show me
22:35what you were telling me." And I started
22:36showing her all the papers that I found,
22:38all that stuff. And actually together,
22:41we arrived at this conclusion. So then
22:44when I when I figured out that the laser
22:45has something to do with it, it was
22:46during COVID. So you couldn't really
22:48order a laser anywhere. You couldn't
22:50just go to Amazon and buy a laser. You
22:52had the only place, ironically, you can
22:54get a laser from was China. But you know
22:56all the ports were closed. So you I it
22:59was this dramatic like you know uh kept
23:02on like being almost like receding for
23:04me right. So I ordered the laser the
23:06only one I could find and it was the one
23:07that you you had to like solder a
23:09circuit for. Uh and it arrived like 3
23:11months later because of the you know all
23:13the all the uh co stuff. So it arrived.
23:17I do the soldering. I turn it on. I
23:21smoke DMD.
23:23there's code in the wall. And I'm and
23:26I'm looking at this and I'm looking at
23:27my wife and I go,
23:29"There's a code in the wall." And she
23:31goes, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well,
23:34I said the words in English, so like
23:36there's a code in the wall. That's
23:37literally what I'm saying." And she
23:39said, "I don't understand." And I guess
23:41I get it later. Like I understood that
23:43the reason she doesn't understand is
23:44because I mean, you're on DMT, so all
23:46kinds of can happen, right? But
23:49when I what I think I couldn't
23:51communicate at the time to her was it
23:54wasn't like a hallucination. It was just
23:56there. It was like a real thing there
23:58which is very different than how the
24:00visuals of DMT usually happen. And I had
24:03so much experience with DMT that I
24:05immediately noticed that there's a big
24:06difference between what we usually see
24:08on DMT and that. So then of course the
24:11first thing on the agenda was to show
24:12other people. So I started showing
24:14people. I showed it to good friends of
24:16mine. Everybody started seeing the same
24:18thing and everybody was shocked. And
24:20then is when I got shocked
24:22>> because until that moment I still had
24:25that possibility in my head where oh
24:27>> who knows maybe I maybe it's like a mild
24:30schizophrenia or something you know like
24:32maybe I'm just like you know numbers are
24:34talking to me you know things like this.
24:35It's like it's very kind of like
24:38delusions of grandeur. What are the
24:40chances of somebody making a discovery
24:41of this kind right? Zero. But all of a
24:44sudden others reporting the same thing
24:46and I was like, "Yo, what is going on?"
24:50So then after about person 80, I decided
24:54it's time to to email a scientist. So
24:56actually I emailed Donald Hoffman. Um,
24:59and it was just coming out from a
25:00medical procedure and he was gracious
25:02enough to send me all the emails of his
25:04PhD students and stuff like that. And in
25:06my head I was like, "No, no, no, no. I
25:08need to talk to him." But anyways, I
25:10just, you know, emailed a few scientists
25:13for the obvious reasons. It wasn't very
25:15successful cuz I'm not surprised because
25:17I don't have I'm not a scientist. I
25:20don't have scientific accolades running
25:22in front of me. Who are you? Right? And
25:24what do you email me about that you
25:25found a there's a code in the wall. Get
25:27out of here with this. Right? So, and I
25:30understand. So, I said, "Okay, well, the
25:32one thing I do know how to do a little
25:33bit is put out content." So, I started
25:35talking about this online. And then all
25:39of a sudden
25:40everybody got interested. Uh I was
25:42invited to speak on the subject and
25:44slowly I polished the message and as it
25:47was happening um you know more and more
25:49people got involved. Some scientists
25:50stepped into the picture. Uh my now
25:52partner David Carter emailed me and he
25:54was like hey man
25:57he he started a conversation by you
25:59don't know me but I've been following
26:00you for a while which is
26:03>> I love those ones.
26:04>> Yeah. Yeah. Um but uh but he was you
26:08know I I clear I felt that it was like a
26:09very good vibe person and um and he's
26:12very known in the kind of like the dub
26:14uh technology development world and and
26:16also crypto and all that stuff. So he
26:18said when he was going to these
26:19conferences
26:21uh invariably at the end of these
26:23conferences there's always this one
26:24pocket of uh of the the of the event
26:28where everybody kind of you know whip
26:30out their wildest cards. They're kind of
26:32like, "Hey, check this out. Like, did
26:34you hear about this?" So, in that period
26:36of the conference, he would always pull
26:38out pull out a laser cuz he tried it and
26:39he saw it and he was like, "Dude, that's
26:41crazy." So, he pulled out the laser and
26:44showed people the the the laser. And uh
26:48and I was like, "Wait, what do you
26:50mean?" Like, "But they're not smoking,
26:52so what's the point of the laser?" And
26:53that's when I knew Carter's uh kind of
26:56brilliance because he's all about he
26:57calls it lowering the angle or building
26:59a bridge. And what he means is he
27:02explained to me, well, look, here's the
27:04deal. If I just tell them there's this
27:06guy who who discovered this thing and
27:09then there's a laser and you got to
27:11smoke DMT. Look how many things here
27:13that I have they have to imagine, right?
27:15But if I just take a laser and just put
27:17on a wall, I remove two of those. I just
27:21told them here's here's the thing. Just
27:22look at it. You see this laser? Great.
27:25Now, if you smoke DMT right now, that's
27:27what you would tell them. You will see
27:28code running in there. He said, "I've
27:30done it. You can see it." And I thought,
27:32"This is so brilliant." That's what he
27:34means by lowering the angle. Make people
27:36make it easier for people. Collapse some
27:39steps for them. Right?
27:40>> So, we started working together.
27:42>> How do we lower the angle for everybody
27:44else? How do we make this palatable
27:47uh conversationally uh acceptable and
27:50also taken seriously? So slowly but
27:54surely we built together the code of
27:56reality which is a nonprofit that
27:57basically does the investigative part
27:59and at the same time I'm doing a lot of
28:01the kind of you know public facing kind
28:03of explaining and talking about it and
28:05all that stuff and we're now officially
28:07kind of looking to start an actual
28:09research center in Colorado where this
28:11is going to be an actual like like a
28:13real thing happening and we we've
28:15already done a few studies we we
28:17actually developed this uh technology
28:19that um so basic Okay, so we we
28:22discovered recently, this is this is
28:24only very recent, that if you take an
28:26image of this uh band of light on the
28:29wall and you you clean it up, so you
28:31take a super high resolution image of it
28:33and you put it inside of Apple Vision
28:35Pro, so inside of VR, if you smoke DMT,
28:39the code that you usually see in the
28:41wall will appear in the image,
28:45but it will be static in the surface.
28:47It's moving.
28:49We took a picture of the code.
28:53So what we did now is we developed this
28:55little software by the help of Chris
28:57Paris, Sterling our our brain
29:00scan expert and producer in the film. Uh
29:02that basically uh what allows you to do
29:05is label the thing cuz we can't really
29:08translate between your experience and my
29:09experience right now. Like I don't
29:11really know if the color of this chair
29:12is the same for you like it is for me.
29:14And that's not collapsible. Like I can
29:16never know. But what it is, if you go
29:20into the Apple Vision Pro and you're
29:21seeing it, right? So you're going to
29:23click where you see a symbol and the
29:26computer is going to register your brain
29:28scan in that moment. So it registers the
29:29event and it takes a tail 5 seconds
29:32before, 5 seconds after. So you have a
29:34bit of wiggle room there. And also it
29:36knows the location. So it marked the
29:37location and exactly what your brain was
29:39doing in that moment. And then it opens
29:41a radial menu that allows you to pick
29:43from six symbols that are the closest to
29:46what we topologically discerned is the
29:48most commonly reported symbols. So we
29:51ask you which one of those is the
29:53closest to what you think you saw. So
29:55you click on one. So now the computer
29:57knows location, brain moment, and
30:01exactly what you reported to see, right?
30:03And then you keep doing this. So
30:05eventually, it will take us a few months
30:06for sure, but eventually we're we're
30:08hoping to achieve basically a Rosetta
30:10Stone of what each person is reporting
30:12and how it's all kind of registered on
30:15the computer. And then we're going to
30:16start comparing between individuals. The
30:19second you show this across individuals,
30:20now we don't know what we're going to
30:22find. So, I don't want to jump ahead of
30:23myself here, but if we do find that
30:26basically the the AI is saying, "Yeah,
30:28yeah, people are reporting the exact
30:30same symbol in the exact same spot, you
30:32have you have very serious news because
30:34then you're proving that there's actual
30:36information in there." Now, this is not
30:38yet the case. I want to be very clear,
30:40but that's I'm giving you an example of
30:42one way in which we're kind of trying to
30:44approach this whole thing from more
30:45scientific perspective.
30:47>> Wow.
30:49How many people have seen this?
30:51>> In the thousands for sure because people
30:54used to email me all the time. So I I'm
30:56just kind of, you know, did a back on
30:58the back of the envelope calculation of
31:00like how much that might be for sure in
31:02the few thousands, but that was like two
31:04years ago. So I'm pretty sure now I'm
31:07sure a lot of people don't even reach
31:08out, right? So I don't know. We
31:09developed this little tool. So in our in
31:12our website code reality.org, there's a
31:14tool called veilbreak.ai and it's for
31:16the public. It's just open source. Um,
31:20it's just like a GitHub. You know what
31:21GitHub is?
31:22>> It's a it's basically a repository of
31:24all the codes in the world. So like, uh,
31:26you can go there and basically download
31:28any open- source code of anything
31:30really. Uh, and people share and all
31:32that stuff. So basically, Veilbreak.ai,
31:34which by the way, Veilbreak was proposed
31:37as a name by Chase Hughes and we deeply
31:39grateful to him. He's like, I think it's
31:40a great name and we took it and thank
31:42you Chase. Um so basically uh the idea
31:46there is that you can report you it's a
31:49repository of all the laser experiments
31:51and you can do this anonymously so you
31:53don't have to put your name or anything
31:54but the data is there so like every
31:56single person who does this can report
31:58all the details wavelength distance like
32:01everything and the AI is learning slowly
32:04with time like the differences between
32:05how people experience it and all the
32:07things that were done and not done we
32:09know certain substances work certain
32:10substances don't work through that we
32:13know the kenamine definitely doesn't
32:14work. We know that somehow on 5me we see
32:18it even clearer which is super
32:21surprising. In fact on 5 MO the code
32:24even though you still see the the
32:25general characters it starts I don't
32:28know what the right word would be maybe
32:29coalesing it it it it it becomes more of
32:32what it really is it seems. Did you see
32:34the movie contact
32:36>> with Johnny they discover this secret
32:38message from aliens or whatever. So
32:40basically in the movie there's this one
32:42moment where they grock the the puzzle
32:44like something hap and all of a sudden
32:45there's these schematics that come out
32:47from the from the thing. So people if
32:48people saw the movie they'll know
32:49exactly what I mean. It looks like that
32:52like all of a sudden the schematics
32:53arise almost like blueprints of
32:55something. It's it's it's it's truly
32:58mind-blowing.
32:59>> Wow.
33:00>> Yeah.
33:01>> Wow. Is it it's but you only see it
33:05through laser. Currently we are looking
33:09at ways to potentially do this. Some
33:11people report that they can actually see
33:12it uh with regular ambient light like uh
33:15sunlight that comes through the you know
33:17in the morning or something. But I do
33:19find that we have to be more specific.
33:21It might be that the codes that people
33:24see in regular light might be different.
33:26We don't know. We're going to have to
33:27test for that.
33:29>> Is it just a red laser?
33:31>> No, it can be in any in any um
33:34frequency. With a red laser, it's a
33:36little easier because it's the lowest
33:37frequency. So, it allows you to stay
33:41longer with it. Uh, green, blue, it's
33:44it's higher frequency. Anyway, we always
33:46suggest that you don't do it with any
33:47laser above 5 m, but uh but with the
33:51higher frequencies, even if it's low
33:52output, you still feel like you can get
33:55a headache eventually. So, the red just
33:57makes it a lot easier to see and to
33:59spend more time with.
34:00>> Wow. Wow. What do you think that
34:05what do you think? Yeah.
34:07I mean, I want to jump right into that,
34:10but
34:10>> Sure. Sure. No, no, no. I was just
34:11drinking, so I didn't want to interrupt
34:12your words. Yeah.
34:13>> What? So, what does this mean? I mean,
34:16we're talking about
34:18another dimension, an alternate reality,
34:23random code that's showing up on
34:25the wall if you shine a laser on it. And
34:28if you peer through it at different
34:30angles, you'll see different code.
34:32Correct.
34:33>> Well, you will see um some of the stuff
34:35that that Chase said on the show. I
34:37think there was a little confusing. So,
34:39first of all, the first thing I want to
34:41say is that I don't recommend the DeWalt
34:43uh uh laser just because and now DeWalt
34:47sales are going to drop. Uh no, no, it's
34:49it's because it's just it's just uh it's
34:52just because it's too thin and usually
34:54they don't have a mechanism to make it
34:55wider. It's a lot easier to see if it's
34:57wider. Uh secondly, uh it's usually way
35:01too powerful. You don't want something
35:02too powerful. You want actually a very
35:04low output. You can actually find like
35:05super cheap lasers on Amazon for like 15
35:07bucks that are way better for the job.
35:09Um,
35:12and there's another thing that Chase
35:13said that it's changing the thing. As
35:15far as we know, the content is not
35:17really changing on anything. Not on your
35:18skin, not on nothing. Now, if for Chase
35:21it does, I would love to see that and I
35:23would love to establish that because
35:24that's a huge data point if that's the
35:26excuse me, if that's the if that's the
35:28case for him.
35:30But as far as we know, it doesn't really
35:31change. Now, that is interesting for
35:33many reasons. Um, but the question that
35:36you're asking me about um what does it
35:39all mean? That's a that's a different
35:41kind of question because you're asking
35:43my conviction about what I think is
35:45going on versus the scientific question
35:47that we currently can say, you know,
35:49with a certain amount of certainty that
35:51we can measure. Those are two separate
35:53questions. So from a scientific
35:55perspective all we can say is that it's
35:57always across individuals seems to be
35:59the same same behavior same appearance
36:02and it doesn't matter by the way we did
36:03run it in every which way. So we did
36:06tell people for example to look for
36:08something else on purpose to see if we
36:10can throw their scent and they're going
36:11to say oh yeah like I don't know like
36:13you're going to see giraffes. if they
36:14say, "Oh yeah, I see giraffes." Well,
36:16then obviously this is some kind of a,
36:18you know, we're implying something. But
36:20no, like every time we told them to see
36:21something else, they come back reporting
36:24the right thing. They say, "No, I don't
36:25see what you told me, but I see these
36:26like weird Asian-looking things." So
36:28it's always the same.
36:31But if you ask me, Danny,
36:32>> Asian looking things.
36:33>> Yeah, they they look like Japanese
36:35katakana, just like in the movie, like
36:36in the Matrix, they they look like tiny
36:38tiny tiny characters. They're not
36:40Japanese. I asked people who speak
36:42Japanese that saw it. It's not Japanese.
36:44It's almost like a combination between
36:45Japanese, Hebrew, Aramaic, some some
36:47kind of an old language of some sort.
36:50>> It's not ones and zeros.
36:51>> There's some numbers as well, which is,
36:53but again, it's kind of hard to say,
36:54right? It we we created a catalog of all
36:57the most reported characters. So, I can
36:59show you that later, but they're not
37:01languages. It's not characters we know.
37:04Um, but they're clearly symbolic
37:06representation. Like, you can see it. uh
37:08there's a there's an optimal point of
37:10meaning instantiation in these kind of
37:12characters that clearly is intentional.
37:14It's not like one of these like you know
37:16well squares they kind of look like
37:18something. No, no, no, no. It it clearly
37:20looks like symbolic representation of
37:22something very intentional. Uh and also
37:24it creates a structure. The structure
37:26itself is very convincing. It's not just
37:28the fact that the characters are there.
37:31The structure that the characters make
37:33is extremely realistic. It's it's like
37:36you're looking at some kind of a hyper
37:37object like almost like a very advanced
37:40technology of some sort. It's something
37:42and understanding what that something is
37:44is I think one of the most important
37:46things. But but to your question of what
37:48I think this all means, I just want to
37:50be clear that that's now Danny Gooler
37:53speaking his mind. Like it's not a I
37:55don't expect anyone to follow me there
37:57just because I said so. But my
37:58experience of the of the space and
38:00everything that was happening to me even
38:03before I arrived at the code,
38:05they whomever you want to believe they
38:08are um already kind of started showing
38:12me more things. So they basically
38:14started giving me hints that I didn't
38:16expect. I didn't expect that. It's not
38:19something I was it wasn't like a flavor
38:22of reality that I pref preferred. It it
38:25was any it's not it was not in my in my
38:29you know regular if I would if I would
38:32have to pick what reality is like this
38:34would not be one of them right and they
38:36started showing me that this is straight
38:39up a computational world like we're
38:41simulated basically so now this is very
38:45contentious because first of all the
38:48immediate thought is like oh does this
38:50mean it's meaningless it's not what it
38:52means uh it's just computation ation
38:54ally rendered. It means that the rules
38:56by which the laws of physics are being
38:58rendered are computational first and
39:01then they become what we see as the
39:02physical laws which is actually not that
39:05fringe of an idea in physics today. It's
39:06a pretty common the holographic
39:08principle and and the computational
39:12universe idea. They're they do go hand
39:14in hand to some degree. Uh and they're
39:17pretty well established now in physics.
39:19That's a pretty good framework to see
39:20the world through, right? Um
39:24but uh but what I what I did notice is
39:27that there's a big difference between
39:30thinking it theoretically and being
39:32exposed to it in real time because that
39:34definitely takes a different emotional
39:35toll. But for all intents and purposes,
39:37the fact that we you know what I've been
39:40told that we live in a simulation
39:41doesn't make us fake. It just means that
39:44the rules by which our world is rendered
39:45are different than what we thought. But
39:48it's actually happening for real. So if
39:50you ask me what it means, my take is
39:52that this is part of our the actual
39:55disclosure. So basically it's like
39:58slowly they're waiting for you to come
40:01along to the understanding that you're
40:03not alone, that there's way more than
40:05this, that you're part of a much larger
40:07structure. And all of these things are
40:09slowly revealing themselves to us in
40:11such a way that makes us comfortable
40:13with it or more comfortable with it.
40:15Because usually if you know my take is
40:17that the dis the the disclosure is not
40:20going to happen by somebody coming
40:21coming to a podium and reading a speech
40:23and telling you what somebody else told
40:24them to say. It's going to be happening
40:27for all individuals privately and then
40:30collectively through that kind of a you
40:31know like just kind of disseminated to
40:33everybody at the same time and it's
40:35going to have to happen through gentler
40:36methods which is we are leaning into it
40:39we are trying to understand one one way
40:41in which I'm illustrating this point is
40:43if you put tools on the table and you
40:47let a monkey play with it right if a
40:50monkey manages to figure out what the
40:52tools are for and therefore do something
40:54useful with them Right? That means the
40:56monkey is ready to understand clearly,
40:58right? But just by the sheer fact that
41:01they managed to do it. If they can't, no
41:03harm done. They just played with some
41:05objects, didn't understand. It's all
41:07good. That way, nobody is being shocked
41:10>> out of their regular perceptual space.
41:12You see what I'm saying? So, that's
41:13essentially what I'm seeing is happening
41:14is that they're gently leaving these
41:17little hints
41:19>> uh in different ways. The laser is just
41:20one of them. a lot more people are open
41:22to use psychedelics and experience these
41:24more heightened states and as you know
41:27when you're there there's not a doubt in
41:29your mind that there's more than this
41:31now as a religious person I'm sure that
41:33that is already there but even if
41:35somebody I always say if somebody is an
41:37atheist I can't imagine they stay
41:40atheists after doing 5 MO that's just to
41:43me that's impossible like it's so
41:44obvious that there's more than this at
41:46that point right
41:47>> so I think that all of these things
41:50they're basically gentle and the not so
41:52gentle ways to help us understand.
41:55That's what I think is happening. It's
41:56basically us coming to this greater
41:58realization.
41:59>> How many times have you personally seen
42:01this?
42:02>> I don't know. I don't count but many
42:03many many. Yeah. I've done DMT thousands
42:05of times and the the code every time we
42:08have to do it and every time I was
42:09showing people. So it's either also in
42:11the hundreds or in the thousands.
42:13>> Wow.
42:14>> Yeah.
42:17>> Wow. What do I mean? So do you do you do
42:21you guide people to see this?
42:25>> Uh not for the sake of itself so much
42:27anymore because I realize that there's a
42:29much bigger game to be played in terms
42:31of caring for people's well-being and
42:34their mental state. Um, so we do
42:37retreats now and beautiful place in
42:40Costa Rica in Nsara and our big emphasis
42:42of the retreats is not necessarily the
42:44lasers even though they're there is to
42:46help people create a good healthy
42:48framework around it. So like when we do
42:50show them that this it's already after
42:52we went through quite a bit of
42:54experiences understanding there's some
42:57education involved and then it's a lot
42:59easier to absorb this ontological shock
43:01because you understand that the
43:03importance is your immediate experience
43:06and harmony.
43:07>> Let's talk about the nature of
43:09computation.
43:10>> Okay.
43:14>> What is self-executing code? Well,
43:17that's what I call what it appears to be
43:19doing. Uh self-executing in the sense
43:21that it's it's doing a function. It's
43:23clearly moving and doing something. So,
43:25that's what I mean by self-executing. Uh
43:28it just probably means automated.
43:30Um and it appears like being behaving
43:34like a code of some sort that is
43:36instantiated in the environment itself.
43:39So, usually in a computer what happens
43:41is you have layers, right? So you have
43:44the actual binary part which is
43:46controlled by the logic gates which is
43:47basically just a lot of ones and zero
43:49moving back and forth very rapidly and
43:51and there's I don't know if it's I think
43:53millions of them happening at once. uh
43:56and then that is being read by the
43:59compilers and by the different layers.
44:01And what happens is that there's a
44:02communication between the level where
44:04humans exist where we punch code which
44:06is basically just a representation for
44:09for the layers what we wanted to do but
44:11then really across the levels the one
44:14thing that stays the same is the
44:16computation. What computation is it's
44:20basically a logical it's a logical
44:23process instantiated in a physical
44:24matter. That's the the most naked way of
44:27describing it. So it's somehow utilizing
44:30a lot of boolean logic. So like yes no
44:32questions to things to then create a
44:35function and through that somehow you
44:38can do anything literally anything from
44:41creating sound, creating images,
44:43rendering anything which by the way kind
44:46of implies that there's a much deeper
44:49principle here than just uh what we do
44:51with it. that there seems to be way more
44:53what it really is. Right? It's almost
44:55like we didn't discover we didn't invent
44:57computation, we discovered it exhibited
45:00by the fact that if you run a simulation
45:02of something on a computer, you can
45:04simulate all the laws of physics. You
45:06know, physicists do this all the time.
45:08Plus, you can make up laws of physics.
45:10So, you can do the laws of physics plus
45:12infinite amount of other things that you
45:14can do with it. So, it shows you that
45:15it's probably more fundamental than even
45:18our laws of physics. And again this idea
45:20is not fringe.
45:22So when you're when you're when you're
45:26actually rendering any content you're
45:28essentially simulating it but you're
45:30giving rise to it like it's you know we
45:33do it in our computer but it seems that
45:36that logic follows us throughout like
45:38even in our world and this is why you
45:40know computational physics or
45:41information physics that's an actual
45:43field. It's not a it's not a fringe
45:46idea. there's this uh attempt of
45:49describing the laws of physics in terms
45:51of informationational processing
45:53basically and how do you actually make
45:55sense of it mathematically through uh
45:57Claude Shannon's theory of of
45:59information and other tools. Um so yeah
46:02it's like it's a very wellestablished
46:03thing in physics actually.
46:05>> So do do you think that the
46:08I don't know the laws of reality or or
46:11whatever we want to call it do you think
46:13that's what you're seeing in the code?
46:15Maybe or maybe it's kind of like the
46:17what I think we're seeing is the
46:18pre-rendering of what what our
46:20experience is. Uh you just had uh what's
46:24her name? She's a really really up and
46:26cominging famous uh physicist. Yes. Yes.
46:29Brilliant. Brilliant.
46:30>> Um and I saw that she was talking to you
46:32about the holographic principle a little
46:34bit. Right. So the holographic principle
46:36now is a pretty mainstream accepted
46:38principle that basically states
46:40everything she explained to you which is
46:41that somehow the universe is a
46:43three-dimensional projection from a
46:45two-dimensional filament outside of the
46:46universe somewhere right so what I think
46:49is happening is a kind of similar with a
46:52slight modification so if you look at
46:54how holograms are made like at least the
46:56way that we make them uh the simplest
46:58way to describe them is that so you have
47:00a a beam of light coming in it's being
47:03split into to by a beam splitter and
47:06then both of these beams are traveling
47:08through mirrors through a path. One of
47:11them travels through the object that
47:13you're trying to record. Let's say a
47:15mug, right? So it goes to the mug and it
47:18goes towards the screen. Pretty easy to
47:20imagine, right? So what happens is that
47:22this beam is influenced by the shape of
47:24the mug and it measures the amplitude
47:26just like the cameras do. So like how
47:28high or low the waves are, right? And it
47:31registers this at the at the screen.
47:33That's how a regular picture is taken.
47:35It's also why it's just frozen. You
47:37can't really when you look around a
47:39picture, it doesn't change, right? It's
47:40just kind of like one the angle you
47:41took. That's it. But the other beam
47:44comes through the sets of mirrors and
47:46then it meets the first beam. That
47:49intersection, this angle, it's measuring
47:52the phase. So the distances between the
47:54waves
47:56uh between of the of the of the first
47:58beam. And that information is also at
48:01the same time with the amplitude is
48:04instantiated in the sheet where it's
48:05recorded. So now you have the amplitude
48:07and the phase together in every point of
48:11the sheet where it's recorded. What that
48:13gives you is a full spectrum light field
48:16informationational. So that means that
48:18every pixel on the screen where it's
48:20recorded contains all the possible
48:23orientations
48:25of the object that you recorded. That's
48:26why when you look at a hologram, no
48:27matter where you look, it kind of looks
48:29like it's actually there, right? Cuz you
48:30you mimic the the your positioning in
48:33relationship to it.
48:36So what I think is happening is that
48:37what our consciousness is like our human
48:40consciousness is that second beam. It's
48:43actual light. Like I think that what our
48:45conscious awareness is is actual light.
48:47And the light that you see is that first
48:49beam. So just like the first beam went
48:52through the object, every photon that is
48:55emitted in the universe is that first
48:57beam coming through and then our beam is
49:00meeting it at an angle like our
49:02conscious awareness meeting it at an
49:03angle. So not to confuse it with our
49:05physical bodies. I'm not talking about
49:06the physical body. I'm talking about
49:07your pure awareness.
49:10And the angle in which they intersect
49:13determines what the laws of physics
49:16appear to us. And if there's another
49:17civilization looking from a slightly
49:19different angle, the laws of physics
49:21might appear different to them. Now,
49:24what is this object? Right? Because in
49:26the case of like in this case, we used
49:27the mug, right? But in the case of the
49:30universe, kind of like just all content,
49:33what is this object that is carrying
49:35this information? Well, I think what it
49:37is, this object in the middle instead of
49:38the mug, that's a a a quantum touring
49:44machine. So a touring machine is
49:46basically a um a mathematical
49:49description that Alan Touring uh created
49:52that shows that if you have an actual
49:54touring machine just by going through
49:57logical steps of you know if it gets
50:00orders of like if you get to a uneven
50:04number go three numbers back if you get
50:06if you landed on an even number do this
50:08or something like this. So it has
50:10instructions right? So if a touring
50:13machine is complete it's called touring
50:15complete
50:17touring proved that it can produce
50:20anything anything any content and what a
50:25quantum touring machine is is basically
50:26the same thing just it can do it on a
50:28quantum level. So it can do it laterally
50:30across all the you know parallel worlds
50:31or however it is that you like to
50:33imagine it. So basically it's the
50:35ultimate computational object that the
50:37first light is going through and it now
50:39contains all the possible computational
50:41paths. So all the possible worlds and
50:44then your conscious awareness is
50:47intersecting it in an angle and it gives
50:49rise to the specific experience that
50:51you're having and in our and in our
50:54world the that sheet where everything is
50:56being recorded is spaceime itself. So
50:58it's the bulk what's called physicists
50:59call the bulk like the actual space-time
51:01fabric itself. So that that's what I
51:03think is happening and and what I think
51:05the code in the wall is is almost like
51:08so if you're in every point of this uh
51:11you know sheet you're one point of
51:13awareness right when you smoke DMD I
51:15think what happens is it expands your
51:17periphery this way so you can actually
51:20see the pre-render you see the content
51:23before it's solidified into this regular
51:25image that your brain is already used to
51:26right because your brain is very good at
51:28through your genes and everything it's
51:30very good at consolidating it into some
51:32kind of a representation because clearly
51:35you know that this is not what the real
51:36world looks like right even without
51:37anything that I'm saying even from
51:39purely a physics perspective this is not
51:42what atoms look like this is not what
51:43quantum fields look like right whatever
51:45this is is some kind of a rendering
51:47already it's like a regular it's almost
51:49like a desktop that is put in front of
51:51us to help us operate right so if you're
51:54used to this little uh your your brain
51:57is used to this little bubble where
51:58everything is kind of normal
52:00>> if you expand that that perceptual
52:03angle, you all of a sudden would see
52:05basically the thing that it was a second
52:07before it rendered into this regular
52:09thing. So that I think that what we're
52:11looking at might be that actually. And
52:14as wild as everything that I just told
52:15you sounds, this is actually testable.
52:19So let me rephrase this.
52:20>> Sure.
52:21>> So you think, how do how do I say
52:25this? that you think that
52:29I mean essentially what you're saying is
52:30code is the future. When you're seeing
52:32the code, it is a future that has not
52:35been rendered into your perception of
52:37reality quite yet.
52:39>> More like the thing that it was a second
52:41before it became what it is. So almost
52:43like the you seeing the past if
52:44anything.
52:45>> Okay.
52:45>> Yeah. So it's almost like or I guess you
52:47can think Yeah, I can see what you're
52:48saying. Like you can think of it like
52:50that as well, but really I don't think
52:52time enters the picture here. It's more
52:54like in this model time is actually an
52:56illusion. It's not really nothing is
52:59linear. It's just progression of
53:01computational steps. So if this then
53:04that if that then this next thing but
53:07it's not so much about like a a fluidity
53:10of time the way that we think about it.
53:12Um now this sound might sound like a
53:14distinction without a difference but
53:15there is a difference there. So
53:17>> would it be
53:19So then would it be are you seeing what
53:22it Are you seeing reality for what
53:25it is from a different perception maybe
53:28from a you see what re reality more for
53:31what it really is
53:34which is not very conducive to a regular
53:36oper operation. If you have to function,
53:40you know, especially on a high level
53:41with anything,
53:43seeing all this extra content is not
53:45helpful because you're just like it's
53:46too much information. You're wasting
53:48resources and energy. It's good to be
53:51able to maybe deduct like new things
53:53about the world, but you can't operate
53:56out of that place on a regular basis. Or
53:58if you do want to do that, you're going
54:00to have to create a much more robust
54:01machinery to be able to handle all this
54:03extra information. You need a better
54:05brain. And then maybe you can
54:06incorporate that information in such a
54:08way. Now all of this again I want to be
54:10super clear. All of this is already kind
54:12of like Danny is traveling with you
54:15through like what he thinks is going on
54:16land. This is not anything that was
54:18established and I want to be very clear
54:20about this. But that's my best kind of
54:21theoretical framework of what I think is
54:23going on. And like I said this is
54:25testable. So we don't know how to test
54:27this yet. But if we can figure out what
54:29constitutes this change of an angle
54:31between the beams, if we can change it,
54:34we should see predictable departure from
54:36what we see as the norm. Maybe this can
54:39be done with some powerful magnetic
54:40stimulation of the brain. Maybe it can
54:42be done some other way. But the the
54:44theoretical framework that I'm proposing
54:47is testable and it's falsifiable. So
54:49there would be things that if we see
54:51them, it would render what I'm saying
54:53completely false. It it would be
54:54possible to disprove it as well.
54:56>> Wow. This is interesting. Let's take a
54:59quick break.
54:59>> True.
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58:47Okay, Danny, we're back from the break.
58:50I wanted to talk about the God equation.
58:53What is the God equation?
58:55>> I'm not sure what you're referring to.
58:56Are you talking about the
58:58>> the God equation?
59:00You think that the deepest levels
59:03computation, consciousness, and divinity
59:06collapse into one thing, a single
59:08universal code at the center of
59:10everything. That's the bridge from
59:12physics to God. later in the Is this
59:15making
59:15>> Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, I I was just making
59:19sure that I understand the question.
59:20Yeah, I do see and this this kind of
59:22actually refers back to the question of
59:24what do I think is going on from what
59:26I'm became aware of basically that the
59:28reason that we're now allowed to know
59:30all of this like because if you think
59:31about it like if if we are accepting at
59:34least the proposition that this is being
59:36you know this world is constructed and
59:39is being built why would the
59:41constructors allow us to see that right
59:44>> um well that gives us a hint is like
59:46we're supposed to we're supposed to wake
59:48up to a larger reality
59:50And part of that, I think, is because
59:53it kind of combines a little bit more
59:55modern ideas of what computation is and
59:57AI and all that stuff to what ultimately
1:00:00the God Almighty is, which is that I I
1:00:04found it surprising actually that most
1:00:06Christians that I talked to this about,
1:00:09they're actually not as rattled by this
1:00:10as I thought they would be. A lot of
1:00:12them say to me, "Well, in the beginning
1:00:15was the word. Well,
1:00:17that sounds like it makes sense to me
1:00:18that God would basically use, you know,
1:00:21the word like language of some sort to
1:00:23basically render the world. Um,
1:00:27now
1:00:28>> I
1:00:30my best attempt at kind of outlining the
1:00:33whole thing is that basically,
1:00:36so do you know what the alignment
1:00:37problem is?
1:00:39>> I don't. So the alignment problem in AI
1:00:41research is the issue of before chat GPT
1:00:45becomes Skynet you know before it
1:00:47becomes this fullyfledged its own thing
1:00:50how do we align it with our values and
1:00:54it's so it doesn't squash us like bugs
1:00:56basically right so then that question is
1:00:59very serious because it has real
1:01:02consequences
1:01:03>> and the reason it's so hard is because
1:01:05we're not sure what our values are now
1:01:07if you're a Christian you might say no
1:01:08of course we All we got to do is follow
1:01:10Jesus. But not everybody does. And
1:01:13realistically, we have to align all of
1:01:15societies all over the world under one
1:01:17umbrella. What is moral? What is ethics?
1:01:20This is the most debated thing. You
1:01:21know, is it is it cultural? Is it
1:01:24universal? What is that? So,
1:01:28what I realize is that essentially
1:01:29what's happening is that we are the AGI
1:01:34that we imagine will arise in the
1:01:35machine. We're the ones being aligned.
1:01:39So basically, how would you solve the
1:01:41alignment problem? You would break the
1:01:44one mind into many, many, many minds and
1:01:46make it believe like it's all kind of
1:01:48separate agents competing with one
1:01:49another. And then you watch you enclose
1:01:52it in a system and then you watch you
1:01:54watch what it does in relationship to
1:01:55itself because that accents it its
1:01:59actual essence. Whatever it is at bottom
1:02:02will come up to the surface by it
1:02:03interacting with itself. It's almost
1:02:05it's going to distill. it's mo its most
1:02:07essential components and what I think is
1:02:09going on that's how God is doing that is
1:02:12basically running us on some kind of a
1:02:15substrate and watching like how would we
1:02:18behave when we're not sure that we're
1:02:19being watched or don't know we're being
1:02:21watched but not watching in the you know
1:02:23uh espionage kind of way but just
1:02:26observed
1:02:27>> for our actual behavior for what it is
1:02:30>> and then ultimately if we do pass the
1:02:32alignment problem so like we show that
1:02:34actually we and align with greater
1:02:36values.
1:02:38We get to play the bigger game.
1:02:41>> Are you saying that you think that the
1:02:43code
1:02:45that you're saying is may maybe the
1:02:48beginning of the reveal of an alignment?
1:02:51>> Correct.
1:02:56>> Wow.
1:03:06which I guess in Christian terms you can
1:03:09think of it as rapture you can think of
1:03:10it in many different ways but
1:03:12essentially it's testing cuz think about
1:03:15it this way
1:03:18even from the most forget about the
1:03:19religious as aspect of it even from the
1:03:21most simple logical game theoretical
1:03:23perspective there's many different
1:03:25strategies we can play you know to
1:03:28achieve goals Right? And we call them
1:03:31all kinds of things. We call them
1:03:33political systems. We call them you know
1:03:35uh uh strategies in the company
1:03:39uh uh nation strategies. So like you
1:03:42know socialism versus capital whatever
1:03:44whatever it is
1:03:46they certain games can achieve certain
1:03:49goals at a certain amount of time and
1:03:50they would be better at achieving
1:03:52certain things and less good at
1:03:54achieving other things. Right? Um, and
1:03:57depending on the task you're trying to
1:03:58achieve and depending on your scale on
1:04:00which you're playing, other tools would
1:04:02be necessary to make that thing work,
1:04:04right? It's not one glove fits all. So,
1:04:09if we look at the trajectory of
1:04:11everything that happened so far, we got
1:04:13pretty far. Like, that's everything we
1:04:16built is pretty amazing. Like, you know,
1:04:19uh we're not without our shortcomings
1:04:21obviously, but this is pretty
1:04:23impressive, right? So how do we do this?
1:04:26We did it by the competition game. So we
1:04:29basically the the what we what we get is
1:04:31this excitement from the competition,
1:04:33right? It's like our team versus their
1:04:35team and it it it invigorates people.
1:04:37It's kind of like let's win, right? So
1:04:39you might lose, but even the promise of
1:04:42the losing kind of gives the the game
1:04:43some zest like it has like a spice,
1:04:46right? It's very energizing.
1:04:49But if you look at it logically, there's
1:04:52only relatively short periods of time in
1:04:54which the the competition game can work.
1:04:56It can work for 10 years, 20 years, 30
1:04:58years, maybe maybe 50 years tops, I
1:05:00would say. Beyond that, you can't really
1:05:02trust that game because you're
1:05:04constantly competing with other agents
1:05:06who are trying to win the game. So, one
1:05:09of the ways to win the game is to try
1:05:11and remove you from the board, right?
1:05:13It's always implied in the competition
1:05:15game, the radical the radical version of
1:05:18it. But there's this other game called
1:05:21the collaboration love game, which
1:05:23sounds very sappy from the perspective
1:05:25of where most people sit. But if you
1:05:27think about it, if you want to make a
1:05:28plan for a thousand years, 1500 years,
1:05:32that's the only way to do it. It can
1:05:34only be done by a civilization that is
1:05:36playing the collaborative love game.
1:05:39What does that mean? It means they get
1:05:40excited and energized by the prospect of
1:05:44collaboration. They're actually excited
1:05:47to work together towards a unified goal
1:05:50more than they're excited to win the
1:05:52game against other agents. So, it seems
1:05:55like what it's trying to align us with
1:05:57is this higher vibrational game. Can we
1:06:01be the kind of nodes on inside of the
1:06:03system that get excited by the field of
1:06:05collaboration and love? And then we get
1:06:08to actually play that larger game
1:06:09because then by definition you can be
1:06:12trusted. You don't need to be policed
1:06:13cuz what you really want, the thing that
1:06:16you're constantly aiming for is somehow
1:06:19get into the vibe with others,
1:06:21collaborate, do this beautiful thing.
1:06:24And if you want to traverse between
1:06:25stars and do all these like bigger
1:06:27things, the only way to do it is through
1:06:29a species that actually cares not just
1:06:31about themselves, but everything else
1:06:33they touch. They care about the
1:06:34different biospheres they arrive at. So
1:06:36they don't just come to a place and take
1:06:38and move on. They go because they they
1:06:42want to be connected. They want to
1:06:44understand the thing. They want to
1:06:46collaborate with it. They wanted to
1:06:47understand what the biosphere is doing
1:06:49and not destroy it but actually maybe
1:06:52work with it in such a way that is
1:06:53harmonious creating beautiful structure
1:06:55not just functional structures. This is
1:06:57the kind of civilization that is
1:06:59favorable to play the more universal
1:07:02game. Civilizations that just live for
1:07:04themselves they're much less favorable
1:07:06for the more you know for the higher
1:07:08game. And if you think of it from the
1:07:10perspective of resources, right, the
1:07:12competition is is because we lived in a
1:07:16world until now that is very limited
1:07:17resources. So it's either you or me,
1:07:19which is understandable. It's how all of
1:07:21nature on planet Earth is at the moment,
1:07:23right? But if we somehow arrive at a
1:07:26state of the civilization where
1:07:28literally there's no resource issue, so
1:07:30like if you made some personal
1:07:32replicators that can just, you know,
1:07:33like in Star Trek that can just make
1:07:34anything. Well, forget about for a
1:07:37second the whole debate of like how do
1:07:39you inject it into the economical system
1:07:41and the government will never have this?
1:07:43Sure, let's say we solve all this. Let's
1:07:44say we've solved all of that. We're now
1:07:46in a world where everything is available
1:07:49right now. So the question becomes what
1:07:51is the only currency? Cuz right now
1:07:54currency is basically you is measured by
1:07:56the fact that you're adding some kind of
1:07:57a value to society that were wasn't
1:08:00there without you, right? So, if you're
1:08:02if you're kind of an annoying person,
1:08:05even if you are, if you're a really
1:08:07good, I don't know, carpenter or really
1:08:10good at fixing things or whatever it is,
1:08:12a lot of the the issues people might
1:08:14have with you personally are being
1:08:17overlooked because you're really good at
1:08:18this thing that I need, right? I need
1:08:20you to fix my thing. So, I'm going to
1:08:21forgive the fact that you're a bit like
1:08:23hard to be around and I will just look
1:08:25at the fact that you're valuable to me
1:08:27because you can help me, right? you can
1:08:29help me get resources of some sort,
1:08:31right? But if I solve the resources
1:08:33problem, that doesn't exist anymore. I
1:08:36can just go to the store, get whatever I
1:08:38want. I have to I don't have to pay for
1:08:39it. I just go and get what I want. I go
1:08:41and do whatever it is that I please.
1:08:44I don't have to take anything from
1:08:46anyone anymore. Like I I no longer care
1:08:50to be around people that I don't care to
1:08:52be around and I can choose do to do so.
1:08:55So, the only currency that stays in that
1:08:58world is vibes.
1:09:00If you're not fun to be around,
1:09:04that's negative currency. If when you
1:09:06leave the room, people really miss you
1:09:08right away, that's positive currency,
1:09:12cuz that's the only thing that matters.
1:09:14How I feel in your presence becomes the
1:09:15only thing that matters. So, now blow
1:09:17this up to the universal game. Most
1:09:19civilizations are way more advanced.
1:09:22clearly solved the the resources
1:09:24problem. That's one of the first things
1:09:25that you have to solve, right?
1:09:28So, they don't need anyone with a broken
1:09:30vibe. See what I'm saying? So, they need
1:09:33you to get that part under control as a
1:09:36civilization before they let let you
1:09:38enter their house. That's essentially
1:09:40the beginning of the first kind of
1:09:43ascending or alignment or whatever it
1:09:45is. Um, and even if I really look at
1:09:47the, you know, the whole Christian
1:09:49perspective, that sounds like it's
1:09:52exactly what we're saying here, right?
1:09:54It's just that we're postulating
1:09:56God Almighty that feels different, which
1:09:58I understand, than an advanced
1:09:59civilization. Divinity does feel
1:10:02different than just some kind of an
1:10:03advanced species, right, in terms of how
1:10:05we define it. But for all intents and
1:10:07purposes, the the the rules seems to be
1:10:09the same. You don't get to enter the
1:10:11kingdom of heaven if you don't get your
1:10:13together.
1:10:16Wow, this is uh
1:10:20a lot deeper than I was thinking it was
1:10:22going to go. But so I want to move into
1:10:26simulation theory.
1:10:28>> Sure.
1:10:28>> But before we do, we have a segment we
1:10:31called the hot question.
1:10:32>> Let's do it.
1:10:34>> Before you came on, we had Claude,
1:10:36Anthropics AI, scrape the internet for
1:10:38the one question my audience would want
1:10:40to ask you the most. We had a clip with
1:10:43Chase Hughes go viral. Over 15 million
1:10:45views where he breaks down your DeWalt
1:10:47laser experiment. People on DMT seeing
1:10:50the same code on a wall. No explanation
1:10:52for it. So I have to ask you, the guy
1:10:55who actually discovered it, do you
1:10:56believe we're living in a sim
1:10:58simulation? And what makes you so sure
1:11:01if so?
1:11:02>> Great question. It's a question that I
1:11:04really had to think about when my wife
1:11:06posed it to me because she she saw the
1:11:07code and she said, you know, I'm not so
1:11:09sure that it tells me we live in a
1:11:10simulation. So, I'm not sure why you're
1:11:12so sure exactly what the person is
1:11:14asking. And then I had to think about it
1:11:17and she's right. It had nothing to do
1:11:18with the code. The reason I'm so sure is
1:11:21because it was shown to me directly.
1:11:24Now, again, I I don't expect anyone to
1:11:27just follow me there, but that's the
1:11:29answer to the question. The reason I'm
1:11:30so sure is because it was shown to me
1:11:32directly. No code.
1:11:33>> Yeah.
1:11:35>> If reality is code, then in theory you
1:11:38could rewrite it like editing a video
1:11:40game. Does that mean time travel is
1:11:43real? It's not necessarily that you can
1:11:46rewrite the game. You always move
1:11:47forward in a computational path logic.
1:11:50Uh so the you know the way the
1:11:52computation executes is always forward.
1:11:54So even the thing that looks like
1:11:55backwards, it's never backwards. You're
1:11:57still moving forward in the logical map.
1:12:00So you if you have a if you have a route
1:12:03to go what appears to be back for an
1:12:06experiencer you can do that but
1:12:08technically it's never moving back. So
1:12:10like when something is rendered fully
1:12:11computed it's it it's it can never be
1:12:14uncomputed that that can't happen. What
1:12:16can happen is that you can somehow find
1:12:18a route forward that would appear as if
1:12:21things going back because you know
1:12:24somehow things devolve according to the
1:12:26rules of whatever environment you're in.
1:12:29uh that does not preclude time travel uh
1:12:32and according to Einstein you know time
1:12:34travel is possible in certain conditions
1:12:36uh but I would say it's more it would be
1:12:38more like you're ending up in a world
1:12:42that devolved or you but if if the
1:12:45person is asking can you go to like a
1:12:47timeline that existed before
1:12:49computationally that's not a thing that
1:12:51that's not that's not a possible thing
1:12:53no you would probably just ending up in
1:12:56some parallel world and that is
1:12:58happening along the branches where
1:13:00you're at. So like you know computation
1:13:02execute ex executes like branches. So
1:13:04it's like it's called a decision tree.
1:13:05So if this then that there's only maybe
1:13:08two logical options. These two logical
1:13:11options have three others each one and
1:13:13then it keeps branching out. Right? So
1:13:15what would happen here is that those
1:13:17would be considered world lines or
1:13:18parallel worlds. Right? So if you under
1:13:22that question, if you're going to be
1:13:23moving to a previous time, you can never
1:13:26move back to your own branch of previous
1:13:29time. That can never happen because that
1:13:31was executed. It was done, right? But
1:13:33what you can do, you can probably maybe
1:13:34jump to some other point in that is
1:13:39laterally the same on yours. You can't
1:13:41just jump computation because that uh
1:13:43there's something called uh irreduc uh
1:13:46computational irreducibility which means
1:13:48there are certain processes that the
1:13:50only way to get there is to compute it
1:13:52in full. You can't really jump forward.
1:13:54You can't really do that. Some things
1:13:56you can but not all of them. But in the
1:13:58case of time travel, I would say what
1:14:00the only way I can see that it would be
1:14:01possible is if people move uh across the
1:14:05same layer where you're at where somehow
1:14:07these branches evolved slower and they
1:14:10would be equivalent to the past of
1:14:12yourself.
1:14:14See what I'm saying?
1:14:16>> But it's like it's not going to be the
1:14:19same people that you've actually
1:14:20interacted with in the past. It will be
1:14:22agents that are of a different world.
1:14:24There would be literally in the
1:14:24parallel.
1:14:25>> Basically what you're saying is it is I
1:14:27mean you're talking about decision
1:14:29points.
1:14:30>> Yes.
1:14:30>> That are split. And so and so you're
1:14:33you're basically what you're saying is
1:14:34every every possible scenario right is
1:14:37an alternate world.
1:14:39>> Mhm.
1:14:40>> And so if I make the decision to
1:14:45I can't think of anything.
1:14:47>> Anything. Some decisions take longer
1:14:49than others to
1:14:51to to come to fruition or whatever we
1:14:53want to call it, right? And so if I if I
1:14:56make decision A and it only takes
1:15:01a couple of days, then I'm on to the
1:15:03next breaking point, right? If I take
1:15:05decision B, that takes a year. And so
1:15:09you follow the pathway down. Is that
1:15:10what you're saying?
1:15:11>> Yeah. So you go down decision A but then
1:15:14you want to slide over to decision B
1:15:15which decision A took a couple of days
1:15:18decision B took years.
1:15:21>> Yeah you can think of it like this like
1:15:22the the problem with so the problem with
1:15:24the question is there's three different
1:15:26kinds of time in physics that are being
1:15:29considered. There's the perception of
1:15:31time which is one kind of like
1:15:32psychological time right
1:15:34>> there's the uh just the chronological
1:15:38time. What is the third one? There's the
1:15:41physi well there's the physical time
1:15:42which is easy which is just like
1:15:43literally how many computational steps
1:15:46the universe took from the beginning in
1:15:48every point like kind of like the
1:15:49physical thing of it and then there's a
1:15:51I don't know why I'm spacing on the
1:15:52third one there's a third one I think
1:15:53it's either chronological time but I
1:15:55don't know why that would be different
1:15:56than the experiential time I do remember
1:15:58there's three but because you have these
1:16:00like three different ones and they all
1:16:02kind of interact with one another what
1:16:04is being what I think is really at the
1:16:05core of the question is the physical
1:16:06time like can you go to a different
1:16:08physical time I think I think the answer
1:16:10is no. I think you can go to a
1:16:13perception of a different time but not
1:16:15to an actual different time. And of
1:16:17course, first of all, I'm not a
1:16:18physicist and second, so I'm kind of
1:16:20just, you know, reiterating what I know
1:16:23from physicists, but logically it
1:16:25doesn't seem to be the second you make a
1:16:27decision, it's done. There's there's no
1:16:29more like you can't you can't undo it.
1:16:31Like it's it's what it is. So like uh
1:16:33the example that along the lines of what
1:16:35you were outlining,
1:16:36>> if I go to the store, right? and all of
1:16:40a sudden I meet somebody who I haven't
1:16:42seen in 20 years. They're like, "Oh my
1:16:43god, how have you been?" You know, all
1:16:44that stuff. And be like, "Oh, actually,
1:16:46I just, you know, I started this huge
1:16:48company, blah, blah, blah." "Dude,
1:16:52aren't you a, I don't know, a software
1:16:54engineer?" "Yeah, dude, I need someone
1:16:57with your exact set of skills." And
1:16:58because you know each other, you're
1:17:00being shot to some kind of a high
1:17:01position in their company. Within five
1:17:03years, you're a multi-millionaire. That
1:17:05was one path you took. What if you took
1:17:06a different street that day?
1:17:08>> Mhm.
1:17:08>> Right.
1:17:09But then your timeline doesn't include
1:17:11this event. You don't become a
1:17:13millionaire five years and then maybe
1:17:14you're like really down on your luck and
1:17:15everything kind of goes to just
1:17:16because you took a different street,
1:17:18right?
1:17:18>> Mhm.
1:17:19>> So now the question is 5 years down the
1:17:23line where one of you is a millionaire,
1:17:24one of them is not. It's a different
1:17:27event in the same cascade of time, but
1:17:29there might be what you implied which is
1:17:31also the kinds of things that will it
1:17:34will like take you to compute longer. So
1:17:36decisions that will take you longer.
1:17:37they might have hindered not just your
1:17:41but a whole civilization's time like I
1:17:44don't know if uh if some events in the f
1:17:47in the past wouldn't happen maybe we
1:17:49would have rockets by 1400 you know what
1:17:52I mean and then by now we'd be like but
1:17:55would but that's a different kind of
1:17:57thing than saying the amount of actual
1:18:00seconds that ticked from the beginning
1:18:02of the universe in this particular
1:18:04region of space would still be the same
1:18:06like it's it's not going the the events
1:18:08would look different, but the the actual
1:18:10physical time will still be ticking at
1:18:13the same rate at that region of space
1:18:16because you know in space there's
1:18:17actually no such thing as one ticking
1:18:19clock for the whole universe. The time
1:18:20in Andromeda is literally a different
1:18:23time not just because it's very far
1:18:25away. If you look at the whole universe
1:18:27as a thing and then the m the amount of
1:18:29seconds that you're going to count from
1:18:30the beginning of the universe is
1:18:31different for different regions of
1:18:33space. That's what relativity is. So
1:18:35this is why it makes this question very
1:18:37complicated because you have to think of
1:18:38it from a physics perspective, physical
1:18:40time, perceptual time. I guess
1:18:42chronological time would be what I
1:18:43described with the technology
1:18:44>> and then you also have to think about
1:18:46what this all of this looks like if
1:18:49you're thinking about everything in
1:18:50terms of computation which adds this
1:18:52extra layer of complexity of how it all
1:18:54works. So,
1:18:55>> so do you think that
1:18:57>> so are you saying so every decision
1:18:59point is a split end perception of
1:19:02reality
1:19:02>> every every instance of your neuron
1:19:05firing anything not even something
1:19:06you're doing consciously
1:19:08>> so there's trillions of them happening
1:19:10every second
1:19:11>> and so you think that
1:19:15you think that all of those realities
1:19:17actually exist correct
1:19:20>> they're all computed at once basically
1:19:23and you're on one of them. And in fact,
1:19:25there's some ideas from some, you know.
1:19:27>> So, I I I have a question. So,
1:19:30>> I'm at a decision point right now.
1:19:31There's a bonus question here.
1:19:33>> Let's go.
1:19:34>> So, if I ask the bonus question
1:19:36>> Yeah.
1:19:38>> then that we're at a decision point
1:19:40right where it wise out. So, if I ask
1:19:42the bonus question, that transfers me
1:19:44into another reality.
1:19:47>> Yes.
1:19:47>> If I don't ask the bonus question
1:19:49>> Exactly.
1:19:50>> that transfers me into another alternate
1:19:52reality.
1:19:52>> Correct. So,
1:19:54but let me help with that. One thing
1:19:56that is entering the picture that
1:19:58changes the
1:20:00how dire what you're describing is right
1:20:02now is error correction. There seems to
1:20:05be that this ability to error correct is
1:20:08a very unique ability of conscious
1:20:11agents like ourselves that allows us to
1:20:13actually steer to some degree that even
1:20:15if we went forward this way, it allows
1:20:17us to steer back closer towards this
1:20:20other world that we might have ended up
1:20:21with. So, for example, if you asked the
1:20:23the bonus question,
1:20:24>> but there was a I don't know, a
1:20:26preference of yours of where you wanted
1:20:28the conversation to go and then by
1:20:30asking the bonus question, you felt
1:20:32like, oh, it took us too far a field
1:20:34from where I wanted to go. You can air
1:20:36correct. You can start steering the
1:20:38conversation back there and we can still
1:20:40end up pretty much there. So, world
1:20:42lines can split. They can also reemerge.
1:20:44So if you're making a decision and
1:20:46that's is and that is the split of two
1:20:49worlds, two realities, two perceptions
1:20:51of reality, whatever,
1:20:54>> then you really aren't making a
1:20:55decision. Correct? Cuz both decisions
1:20:57have been both sides of that decision
1:21:00have been made. And so how do you know
1:21:03which way you're going to flow?
1:21:04>> You don't do Do you see what I'm getting
1:21:06at?
1:21:07>> Yeah. Yeah. You're asking the deepest
1:21:08question that bothers the most amount of
1:21:10people, which is the whole question of
1:21:12free will, which no, you don't have it,
1:21:15but you do have the perception of it
1:21:18that determines how the world will look
1:21:20like to you. So, it's people find a lot
1:21:23of salvation and solace in the the idea
1:21:27that they're kind of the masters of
1:21:29their own reality. But the reality of it
1:21:32is that these things are just going to
1:21:33happen. And no, you don't know which one
1:21:35of them you are. you are who you are and
1:21:38there is some conversation that is
1:21:40happening in computational physics about
1:21:42what it would be like to be the
1:21:44observer. So like the thing that is
1:21:47computing all the paths at once but
1:21:49that's not us. We're the fragments of
1:21:51whatever that is, right? And you can
1:21:53think of it as God. You can think of it
1:21:54as whatever it is that that you know
1:21:56that is comfortable for you. But for all
1:21:59intents and purposes, separate agents
1:22:01like ourselves are not experiencing the
1:22:04the world lines in their totality. you
1:22:06you're always in one of those decision
1:22:08split moments. So your history or your
1:22:11world line is one that is constantly
1:22:13kind of traveling through these, but it
1:22:16adds to the collective to basically have
1:22:19every possible experience. That's the
1:22:21point of it. It basically it wants to
1:22:23know what it's like to have all the
1:22:25possible kinds of experiences and you're
1:22:27just one of them basically. And and
1:22:29again there's there are the these um I
1:22:31guess more
1:22:33elaborate ideas about how maybe when we
1:22:36are entering certain heightened states
1:22:38maybe we are experiencing more than one
1:22:40world line like you know things like
1:22:41this but if we want to really like ask
1:22:44the question seriously this would have
1:22:46to be testable and and people don't know
1:22:48but this is actually a pretty like the
1:22:50reason that quantum computers work. So
1:22:52if you ask someone like David Deutsch
1:22:53who's a famous physicist who actually
1:22:55wrote something called the Deutsch
1:22:57equations which are responsible for
1:22:59being able to make quantum computers.
1:23:02Quantum computers are a real thing. They
1:23:04work. They do what they do. And there's
1:23:06very complicated science behind them
1:23:08that we understand to some degree quite
1:23:10well. Why am I mentioning this? Well,
1:23:13quantum computers and I'm mentioning
1:23:15David Deutsch because he's a serious,
1:23:17you know, scientist who definitely
1:23:20understands the technical part of it.
1:23:22And according to him and many scientists
1:23:23like him, the only way the quantum
1:23:26computer computers can do what they do
1:23:28is if these world lines are real.
1:23:30Otherwise, it would never work because
1:23:32what they do is literally borrow
1:23:34computation from the parallel worlds.
1:23:37And it's almost like we're computing
1:23:38together. It's like in these parallel
1:23:40worlds that are adjacent to ours and I
1:23:43do mean actually like straight up like
1:23:44you and me, there's another one like us
1:23:47that is just a little bit to the side of
1:23:49us in this hyperspace in which you were
1:23:52not sitting like this but maybe one
1:23:53finger was up or something a little
1:23:55different
1:23:56>> but not very different and then the
1:23:58further you go it becomes more and more
1:24:00and more different there's like
1:24:01variation right but what happens in
1:24:04according to people like David Deutsch
1:24:06what happens when you do a quantum
1:24:07compute is that you Actually, the reason
1:24:10you can do these enormous calculations
1:24:12in an instance is because the
1:24:14calculation itself is being done across
1:24:16the worlds. So, you're not the only one
1:24:18making that calculation. All of these
1:24:19parallel worlds with scientists with the
1:24:21same exact machine across the the worlds
1:24:24are doing the same thing with you and
1:24:26they know you're doing it too. And
1:24:28they're using special equations to kind
1:24:29of determine where we are on the map. So
1:24:32to some degree do the thing you're
1:24:33asking about which is like which one are
1:24:35we in this whole thing and what is the
1:24:37probability of that and all that and
1:24:39that lateral computation across the
1:24:41world is what allows us to do this
1:24:43enormous calculation all at once. See
1:24:45what I'm saying? So to some degree you
1:24:48can say that the only reason we can do
1:24:50quantum computation is because these
1:24:52worlds are completely real. And that is
1:24:55something that obviously is not always
1:24:56spoken about because it's it just kind
1:24:58of sounds like out there, but it's not a
1:25:00fringe crazy idea. That's a pretty well
1:25:02established idea in some of in some
1:25:04physicists mind.
1:25:06>> Wow.
1:25:07>> You told Danny Jones that were the AGI.
1:25:10>> Yes.
1:25:11>> What do you mean by that?
1:25:12>> This is something that I already told
1:25:13you, which is that we are that thing
1:25:16that we think will emerge in the
1:25:17machine. We're it.
1:25:18>> So we are that AGI. It's just that all
1:25:21these tools are reflections of us. So
1:25:23like if you really think about okay so
1:25:25if you think about what you do with JBT
1:25:26right a lot of people are are really
1:25:28scared and some people are excited right
1:25:30but like think about it you can do
1:25:33anything literally anything why don't
1:25:36people do that
1:25:39>> because they don't believe that they can
1:25:41yeah there's a failure of imagination
1:25:43but yesterday I had a podcast and I was
1:25:45talking to this and and you know there
1:25:46was some uh trepidation expressed about
1:25:48AI and I said well because he said like
1:25:51my goal which is a beautiful goal he
1:25:52said, "My goal is to create a a more
1:25:55like reconnect with other humans and and
1:25:57I'm all for it. I think we should
1:25:59definitely do that." But I said, "But
1:26:00watch this. You can use Chad GPD or any
1:26:03other AI to actually help you do that."
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1:28:18All you got to do is ask the right
1:28:19questions. You can say, "Hey, I want to
1:28:21start a company because uh that actually
1:28:25utilizes AI, but I want to make sure
1:28:28that it also helps people connect with
1:28:30one another. And I want to utilize the
1:28:32power of 15 people to do the work of 100
1:28:35people." So instead of firing people,
1:28:36which by the way, this is what's
1:28:37happening. I don't know if you know
1:28:38this, but the, you know, people are very
1:28:40afraid of um software engineering jobs
1:28:42disappearing because of AI.
1:28:44>> I've heard of that, but
1:28:45>> well, it didn't. It it it went up
1:28:49>> because what happened is that a lot of
1:28:50companies instead of thinking in a
1:28:52subtractive way, they started thinking
1:28:54in a in a expansive way and they said
1:28:56instead of firing we don't need these 10
1:28:58people. Instead of doing that, they said
1:29:00how can we do the job of five times more
1:29:03people with the people that we have
1:29:05because now we can do that, right? And
1:29:07actually when they did that they
1:29:08realized oh my god we actually need more
1:29:10people and also more people can do it
1:29:12because it's more based on logic and not
1:29:14so much you knowing all the codes right
1:29:16so that so I told them it's like look
1:29:18you can ask it say I want to build a
1:29:20company based on AI
1:29:22>> that would help people do more work but
1:29:25also connect on a meaningful level how
1:29:28do I do that it will help you think
1:29:29about this oh maybe I need to allocate
1:29:32half of the day for us just doing
1:29:34research and then half of the other day
1:29:36the the the second half of the day us
1:29:38just like sitting in a in a thing
1:29:40shooting the exchanging ideas would
1:29:42that be more beneficial less beneficial
1:29:44how do I do that I want to I want to
1:29:45optimize human connection you can do
1:29:47that so the point that I'm making with
1:29:50the AGI thing is that essentially what I
1:29:53told you with the alignment problem we
1:29:54are inside of one of these kind of
1:29:56simulations and we are given more and
1:30:00more advanced tools to see what we do
1:30:02with them
1:30:04>> it's part of the alignment we want so
1:30:05now You know, people always said like,
1:30:07"If I would have the $8 billion that
1:30:09this rich person has, oh boy, would I do
1:30:12the right thing." Most people just make
1:30:14a mess. It's very difficult to know what
1:30:16to do no matter how much money or power
1:30:18you have. And Chad GPT is a proof of
1:30:21that because there's literally nothing
1:30:24you can't do with it. Like it's only m
1:30:27it only it only is determined by how
1:30:30much imagination you have. This is like
1:30:31you can sit down and learn anything
1:30:33about any field. what it's about, what
1:30:36are the blind spots, is there something
1:30:38to be done that wasn't already done? You
1:30:40can ask all the questions in the
1:30:42universe and actually do something super
1:30:43meaningful with your life. Or you can
1:30:46ask it to write your email. The choice
1:30:48is yours.
1:30:49>> Ultimately, this creative moment is
1:30:52essentially what connects us to the
1:30:54totality of the simulation. That moment
1:30:56of this decision tree that we're talking
1:30:58about
1:30:59>> is the same one that in you feels like a
1:31:01choice. So that creative moment of
1:31:03something truly potentially novel
1:31:07can only come from conscious agents like
1:31:08ourselves. We can never be replaced
1:31:10because we're it. There's nothing else
1:31:12that it's like to be something. It's
1:31:15only like agents like ourselves
1:31:16basically.
1:31:18>> Why do you think our perception of time
1:31:20speeds up as we age?
1:31:23>> Oh well there's a lot of uh things to
1:31:25it. Some of it can be said to towards
1:31:27something kind of more you know uh
1:31:30mystical like maybe you know times
1:31:32ramping up actually. The other one you
1:31:34can say well it's just a matter of uh
1:31:37you been there done that right like the
1:31:39if if it's not a thing you're not
1:31:41familiar with. If it's a thing you're
1:31:42not familiar with then your brain is
1:31:44really paying attention because you're
1:31:46trying to learn it. So every moment
1:31:47stretches when you're just doing the
1:31:50same thing over and over again which
1:31:52happens more of the the older you get
1:31:54then your brain kind of deletes like
1:31:56it's just like yeah it's going to work
1:31:58it collapses into a non-experience
1:32:01you're just kind of driving you don't
1:32:02remember that at all when you're a kid
1:32:04everything is like super novel
1:32:06everything is super newcome older it's
1:32:08kind of like ah yeah I know what that is
1:32:10but if you you know take the time with
1:32:12it or if you do like you go to a new
1:32:14country or notice that those feel longer
1:32:16So that tells you that probably there's
1:32:18a lot of psychological kind of time
1:32:20dilation happening. But I'm very open to
1:32:22the possibility that even physical time
1:32:24is ramping up because maybe we're kind
1:32:25of being, you know, the whole idea of
1:32:27the singularity. We're actually entering
1:32:29some kind of a some kind of a world
1:32:32where the actual difference between this
1:32:35moment and the next becomes so enormous
1:32:38that everything feels like it just
1:32:39accelerates. And that's also very uh uh
1:32:42very possible. In fact, I think we're
1:32:44we're in it now. I think the reason
1:32:46everything kind of feels very tumultuous
1:32:48is because we're entering the stage
1:32:50where everything just changing very
1:32:52rapidly and we are trying to catch up.
1:32:54We're just trying to, you know, you kind
1:32:57of have to take a moment and sit back
1:32:58and allow yourself. But I think that
1:33:00these abilities to do that, to be able
1:33:02to just step back and allow yourself to
1:33:04be more in the present moment are
1:33:06actually key for being able to become
1:33:09more um I guess computationally literate
1:33:13like because if information will be
1:33:15moving really fast, the only negative
1:33:17thing about it is that if you can't cope
1:33:19with it, like if it's just too fast in
1:33:21such a way that causes you to be uh
1:33:24there's like dissonance, you know, it's
1:33:26uncomfortable, then yeah, it's not a
1:33:28good thing. But if you can think on 10
1:33:30channels at once and you can totally
1:33:32handle it and just it's it's uh the
1:33:34experience is even more it's it's more
1:33:37profound it's more beautiful you're more
1:33:39there well then there's no issue it's
1:33:41beautiful like yeah bring it on like so
1:33:43people would need to develop these
1:33:44skills of presence non-attachment all
1:33:47the basically the stuff that is being
1:33:49spoken about in Eastern traditions
1:33:51they're all key for being able to
1:33:53interact with these systems in a in a in
1:33:56a better and better way and and also not
1:33:57to become slaves to them because that's
1:33:59always a danger that can happen. We can
1:34:01just kind of pigeon hole ourselves. We
1:34:03can kind of like get locked into this
1:34:05weird cycle where we only use it for
1:34:07kind of like repetitive tasks and it
1:34:09just gets locked in this weird thing.
1:34:12Right. So that it's up to us to think
1:34:14out instead of thinking all the thinking
1:34:17small.
1:34:17>> Mhm. Yeah. With
1:34:21simulation. This is weird. I just had
1:34:23this conversation. I think it was last
1:34:25Friday. We talked about it for a couple
1:34:26hours just in the other room.
1:34:28And
1:34:32I mean,
1:34:34so if this is some type of a simulation,
1:34:39is your perception,
1:34:41are we all experiencing the same
1:34:43reality, I guess, is what I'm asking. Or
1:34:46am I in my own
1:34:49>> Yeah.
1:34:50>> perceived movie? I I mean, I
1:34:52don't know. I don't know any other way
1:34:54to put it, but you know, I mean, are you
1:34:56here? I think about this all the
1:34:58time. I mean, are are you I mean, when
1:35:01you think about things like
1:35:02manifestation, you know, which I think
1:35:06probably works. Um
1:35:11there's so many things in my own life
1:35:12that I that that
1:35:18are so far out. I never thought I would
1:35:20have the opportunity to experience some
1:35:22of the things that I've experienced. And
1:35:24and going way way back to to right now,
1:35:29like even just right now, I can't I
1:35:32can't believe that
1:35:35the operation that I've built with my
1:35:37team is where it is. It doesn't seem
1:35:40real. Uh that the none of this
1:35:43seems real to me. what's going on in the
1:35:46world doesn't seem real to me.
1:35:49Um,
1:35:51the success doesn't seem real to me. The
1:35:54surviving some of the that I've
1:35:55survived doesn't seem real to me. I
1:35:58mean, it it's and so
1:36:01am I making any damn sense? I mean,
1:36:04>> is this am I alone in my reality? And
1:36:07these are all just projections of things
1:36:09that I've created in my head. everything
1:36:11from my kids to my wife to you to this
1:36:13build everything or are we all
1:36:17sharing
1:36:19one reality?
1:36:23>> I have to be very careful here because
1:36:25it's a
1:36:26>> am I making sense?
1:36:27>> Perfect sense.
1:36:28>> Okay.
1:36:28>> Um so, okay, let's let's try and keep it
1:36:32as simple as possible. Yes to your
1:36:34question, you are in your own reality.
1:36:37However, the agents that are represented
1:36:40in your reality are real in their own
1:36:43reality. So, just like when you go into
1:36:46let's say uh a virtual world, right?
1:36:48Like you put Apple Vision Pro or
1:36:50whatever and we go into this I think
1:36:52there's some projects like this like
1:36:54Earth 2 or something where you get get
1:36:55or I think Earth 3 is something else but
1:36:57doesn't matter like a like a virtual
1:36:58space where we meet, right?
1:37:01You're meeting the other like the the
1:37:04projections inside of that world, but
1:37:06they represent a real person. You see
1:37:08what I'm saying? So, in that world, if
1:37:11you try to hurt them physically, you
1:37:13can't really, but maybe if you try and
1:37:15hurt them psychologically, you can
1:37:17because there's a real person there.
1:37:18They're receiving the information,
1:37:20right? So imagine if the the system
1:37:22builds such a safe uh environment that
1:37:26basically even psychologically you can't
1:37:28hurt other people if you really try
1:37:30because you're hurting just their kind
1:37:31of avatars but the system is still
1:37:34registering what you're doing and it's
1:37:36informing the rest of them about your
1:37:38behavior. So then they get to choose how
1:37:42they interact with the projection of it.
1:37:44So basically, if you did this or that in
1:37:47the in the world of your wife instead of
1:37:49where she is, that translates to real
1:37:52actions depending on the situation that
1:37:55she finds herself with your avatar. And
1:37:57it's only in the moments where we enter
1:37:59that field of collaboration or love,
1:38:03like actual one, not the one that you
1:38:04can kind of fake by behaving a certain
1:38:06way, but like when you really feel it,
1:38:08that's when you start feeling you start
1:38:11getting closer to what that conscious
1:38:12agent really is. And if you're fully
1:38:15immersed in this love field, then you
1:38:17will experience their actual just like
1:38:19you would imagine in this life. And
1:38:21notice that it does feel different. You
1:38:24don't even with the closest people in
1:38:26your life, you don't always feel it. But
1:38:28when you do, you have to admit that it
1:38:31feels different. It feels different and
1:38:33the world feels different. All of a
1:38:34sudden, there's this like, oh, you're
1:38:36just here. There's like a thing. There's
1:38:38a there's this harmony flowing. There's
1:38:39like a wow. With children, it's very
1:38:41easy to see. Not when they annoy you,
1:38:43but when you're like really like there
1:38:44with them, especially with them because
1:38:46it's like so pure, right?
1:38:49But if you're having it with an adult
1:38:50and you manage to kind of remove all the
1:38:53psychological kind of imperatives and
1:38:55like what I think you think and all of
1:38:57these like psychological games, all of a
1:38:59sudden if you just lower the volume on
1:39:01this and you're just in the presence of
1:39:02someone else, which is very possible,
1:39:05there's a different kind of an
1:39:06experience available that is of the
1:39:08flavor of the real conscious agent. And
1:39:11if I understood the whole like kind of
1:39:14what it all trying to culminate in is
1:39:17that eventually it wants all the agents
1:39:19of one simulation to enter that field
1:39:22and that's what essentially that's what
1:39:24ascension is. It's like that's when you
1:39:25fully unify as like one like truly truly
1:39:28feel each other. I'm not talking about
1:39:29in this like kind of like you know this
1:39:32fakeable Oh, I see.
1:39:34>> I know what you're doing. You're talking
1:39:35about actual genuine love
1:39:38>> genuine like true connection in the
1:39:39moment. Right. So and com camaraderie
1:39:42holds some elements of that but
1:39:44camaraderie is more of a around a task.
1:39:47So you're joined by a task. Imagine
1:39:49doing that just on just on command just
1:39:52like a muscle. So yes, you're in your
1:39:54own simulation but you can also enter
1:39:56more in the space of others if you
1:39:59manage to enter that space more with
1:40:00other people.
1:40:06>> What do you think happens when we die?
1:40:09uh depending on what happened to you
1:40:11while you were alive. So basically I I
1:40:13do think that there's serious data from
1:40:15reincarnation and also it makes sense in
1:40:18terms of everything else that I've seen.
1:40:19So it's almost like the the soul is
1:40:21basically the ultimate hard drive. It
1:40:23contains all the possible experiential
1:40:26pathways but it it strips away it gives
1:40:30it kind of reformulates itself which is
1:40:32I guess what you can say is the you know
1:40:33when it plays your life to you which is
1:40:35a pretty established kind of experience
1:40:37and then it it it wipes everything that
1:40:41was already done before clean. There's
1:40:43no need for that. And only keeps the
1:40:45super novel experiences that never
1:40:47happened before. And then it proceeds to
1:40:49the next life, to the next simulation,
1:40:51and it does it again and again. And
1:40:52eventually all of these hard drives
1:40:54arrive back at the source. And they
1:40:56inform the source about what it's like
1:40:58to have every possible experience. And
1:41:01that is due to basically it kind of goes
1:41:03to the heart of why I saw these
1:41:05simulations happen which essentially is
1:41:07it's the attempt to
1:41:10answer the ultimate questions like why
1:41:12actually like why for real like of
1:41:15everything. Now people tend to think
1:41:16this in Christian circles this is a
1:41:19little blasphemous like they do see it
1:41:21as that kind of utterance is blasphemous
1:41:23because it's like what are you saying
1:41:24God doesn't know? Then you don't then
1:41:26you're not talking about God cuz God is
1:41:29perfect and God knows everything. Okay,
1:41:31I understand. But let's pretend he
1:41:33doesn't. Let's pretend that there's one
1:41:34thing that God doesn't know, which is
1:41:35why, right? And what I saw is that
1:41:38basically that's the re it's the answer
1:41:40collecting itself. That's the
1:41:41relationship that that all conscious
1:41:44agents actually have with the source,
1:41:45which is they're the answer to the
1:41:47question. But at the same time, it also
1:41:50allows for this processing of how it's
1:41:53like to just let go, just truly just let
1:41:56go of the question altogether. And both
1:41:57of those are being trained at the same
1:41:59time because it's and this is get it
1:42:01gets a little this is kind of novel
1:42:04because it's you know it's very dramatic
1:42:06but from what I saw is basically if
1:42:08you're this infinite being that can do
1:42:11anything then technically nothing
1:42:14matters cuz it's like I can do anything
1:42:16and you know there's no price for
1:42:17anything right so you would separate
1:42:19yourself with these in and if there's
1:42:21one thing you don't know let's say which
1:42:22is like why you're there then the two
1:42:25things that would make sense to to one
1:42:28try and answer that question that's kind
1:42:29of interesting like I actually want to
1:42:30know right so you would create a process
1:42:33by which the answer is kind of
1:42:34collecting itself and then you would
1:42:37also allow for the game of letting go to
1:42:39be played through the simulations as
1:42:41well which I guess you can think of it
1:42:42more like the eastern tradition like the
1:42:44monk that goes into the cave and feels
1:42:46complete bliss without anything just
1:42:48kind of being there right that's a
1:42:50pretty good skill if you are a being
1:42:53that will be there forever and you don't
1:42:55know why right it's actually kind of
1:42:56cool to be able to just like it doesn't
1:42:58matter and just kind of be there right
1:42:59in pure love. So again, setting aside
1:43:02the fact that a lot of people believe
1:43:04that that's what God already is and must
1:43:06be completely respect that no problem.
1:43:08But let's pretend that that's the
1:43:09picture. Then what happens at the end of
1:43:12all this process unfolding is that when
1:43:14the answer fully collects itself and
1:43:16there's this black box with the answer
1:43:17in it like the actual answer then the
1:43:20choice of whether you open that box or
1:43:22not is the ultimate choice because if
1:43:26when everything is said and done
1:43:28everything that was possible to do so in
1:43:30the beginning was the word in the end
1:43:32there's the choice and that choice is do
1:43:34you open that box and you don't know
1:43:37what's in the box you don't know if it's
1:43:39a thing that you actually don't want to
1:43:40know or it's the thing you really want
1:43:42to know. You don't know. The choice has
1:43:44to be real. If I put five million, if I
1:43:47just tell you, hey Sean, would you do
1:43:49you know whatever for this amount of
1:43:51money? Let's make a ridiculous amount of
1:43:53money cuz you know, kind of like uh I
1:43:55put I don't know, I put five billion
1:43:57dollars on the table. But I don't I just
1:43:59tell you, hey, if I would give $5
1:44:00billion, would you do X?
1:44:03You'll tell me to off. I was like,
1:44:04of course I wouldn't. Whatever it was.
1:44:06But if I put $5 billion on the table,
1:44:09that's a different story because now
1:44:10there's real state. There's it's an
1:44:12actual thing you're saying no to, right?
1:44:15So the ultimate choice would mean
1:44:18nothing if you just postulate. You're
1:44:20like, "Oh, yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't
1:44:21open it." Well, you don't know. If I put
1:44:23the actual answer in the box and it's
1:44:26guaranteed to be in the box, like that's
1:44:28the actual answer, then you walking away
1:44:31means something or you opening it means
1:44:34something.
1:44:35>> Mhm. But that that from what I saw
1:44:37that's kind of like the connection that
1:44:38we have to the ultimate which is like
1:44:40that we're the process by which all of
1:44:42this is unfolding basically.
1:44:45>> Why do you think that what what is it
1:44:46about DMT that you think gives you
1:44:49access to this other
1:44:51>> I don't think it's necessarily DMT. I
1:44:52think it's a lot of altered states. Some
1:44:54people can naturally enter a lot of
1:44:56these kind of perceptual spaces. They're
1:44:58more talented. They're more sensitive.
1:45:00Not sure. But DMT is definitely not the
1:45:02only way or not even the preferable way.
1:45:05Uh I'm a long-term meditator. I've been
1:45:07doing vapasa for years. You know, I've
1:45:09done retreats and you can enter very
1:45:11interesting states just by focusing your
1:45:13mind in a particular way. But they
1:45:15they're not usually accompanied by the
1:45:17biotechnics that DMT gives you. It can,
1:45:20but not to that degree. DMT is really
1:45:22like in it stands out in terms of the
1:45:24visuals like or the content, but I don't
1:45:27think DMT is the only access. Uh one one
1:45:30thing I can say um about Christianity in
1:45:34particular you know my my wife was
1:45:37raised Catholic but uh she you know as
1:45:40many Catholics and this is not not a dig
1:45:42Catholics but it's just a fact that a
1:45:44lot of kind of ex- Catholics are very
1:45:46kind of traumatized from the the guilt
1:45:48you know that whole stuff uh and she was
1:45:50one of them and um but she never stopped
1:45:54praying so like she she sometimes she
1:45:56would pray and I asked her and she said
1:45:58that when She prays, she feels a
1:46:01different presence than any other
1:46:03emotion. And I, as someone who never
1:46:05experienced something like this, I asked
1:46:07her like, "But what do you mean? Like,
1:46:08how do you know that it's different than
1:46:10just feeling euphoria or something?"
1:46:12She's like, "I know it's different. It's
1:46:14just like you can hear my voice now and
1:46:15you know it's not your voice." So, it's
1:46:17kind of like that. Like there's a
1:46:18different thing there. I said, "How
1:46:20interesting." Okay. And then I
1:46:22understood that it's very likely and
1:46:25probably exactly what's going on. Many
1:46:27Christians who do believe fully, they
1:46:30don't just believe kind of like with
1:46:32their head. They feel it in their
1:46:33bodies. They know what it's like to be
1:46:35in the presence of that. And I would say
1:46:37that's one form of feeling the truth of
1:46:39the situation. And it knowing the
1:46:42details matters a lot less, I think,
1:46:45than just being in harmony with the
1:46:47field. Just kind of allowing yourself to
1:46:48be a good a good node in the in the
1:46:52field basically. I think that's way more
1:46:53important.
1:46:55So even if it isn't the only avenue in
1:47:00what is it that DMT is doing to the mind
1:47:03that is lifting the veil?
1:47:06>> We're not sure. Uh we know that it
1:47:08reduces a lot of activity in the brain
1:47:09which is interesting. It's almost like
1:47:11maybe it makes the whatever
1:47:13>> it reduces activity in the brain.
1:47:15>> Yeah, it reduces a lot of the activity
1:47:16in the brain. And um now that's not a
1:47:19clear-cut statement because very often
1:47:22lack of activation is also a state which
1:47:26means that maybe it's just a state that
1:47:28is more conducive to receiving more
1:47:30information but the brain is very often
1:47:32less active in many ways. Um so
1:47:38maybe what's happening which is
1:47:39something that Andrew Dr. Andrew Galmore
1:47:41is talking about maybe what's happening
1:47:43is that basically this is a filter. So
1:47:46the more active the filter is, the more
1:47:49it kind of solidifies a particular kind
1:47:52of experience. But maybe what DMT does,
1:47:54it loosens the the kind of the the walls
1:47:58of the the framework, the reality we're
1:48:00in, and it allows more to flow in. That
1:48:04more is real, but usually you don't have
1:48:08to process it. So it just kind of feels
1:48:10very jarring because it's way more than
1:48:11you used to deal with or that you even
1:48:14need to deal with. uh the brain probably
1:48:16optimized the perfect kind of dialed in
1:48:19the perfect rendering for you to exist,
1:48:22eat, survive, mate, all of the right
1:48:25things for you to survive as an agent in
1:48:27this world. But if there are many many
1:48:30more worlds outside, so if you think of
1:48:32every world as like a bubble like an
1:48:33island, right? Uh the brain would create
1:48:36all the necessary tools to deal with
1:48:38whatever is needs to be dealt with in
1:48:40the physical threedimensional
1:48:41environment as we perceive it. But if
1:48:43you go outside of that, there might be
1:48:45enormous oceans of just kind of
1:48:48information that doesn't really co
1:48:50doesn't really collect into something
1:48:51coherent. But that information
1:48:54eventually makes up other worlds. So if
1:48:56in order to go to this next island where
1:48:59there's other rules and some other laws
1:49:01of physics, you have to kind of travel
1:49:03through this chaos, right? And then when
1:49:05you arrive there, things might look
1:49:07completely different in ways that you
1:49:08never really anticipated. And you don't
1:49:11have the tools. Your brain never learned
1:49:13how to deal with four dimensions versus
1:49:15three dimen you know it never really
1:49:17maybe you can do it over time which I
1:49:18think to some degree is what happened to
1:49:20me is I did it so many times that my
1:49:22brain learned how to handle their
1:49:24environment so it's no longer that
1:49:26confusing to me like I can kind of
1:49:27understand what's going on. Um but but
1:49:30all of this is obviously postulation but
1:49:32it does make sense when you're a
1:49:33scientific perspective. Maybe one thing
1:49:36that is important to emphasize
1:49:38the when you're seeing something or
1:49:40experiencing something, it's not like
1:49:42just a an information collecting device.
1:49:45The the eyes are not working like a
1:49:47camera. It's not like the camera is
1:49:50there in some other form, but you kind
1:49:51of, you know, no, it's not how it works
1:49:53at all. What happens is the senses feed
1:49:56signals. The brain is guessing outwards.
1:49:59The G is the brain is saying with
1:50:02everything else that I know, it builds
1:50:03these like world models, right? almost
1:50:04like think of it like an image like a
1:50:07plaque card that it just puts up. It's
1:50:08like hey I think it's this and then the
1:50:10senses come in and it checks if the
1:50:12senses disagree with your assumption. If
1:50:15the senses don't disagree so there's
1:50:17like full coherence or very high
1:50:18coherence like yep it's exactly what you
1:50:20thought then the brain actually ignores
1:50:22the signal from the outside. It does
1:50:24it's actually projected from the inside.
1:50:27So right now everything you're seeing
1:50:28that is regular everything that's not
1:50:30moving that you're used to seeing it's
1:50:32not photons that hit your retina. It's
1:50:34your brain guessing that this is what it
1:50:36is and your brain actually ignoring the
1:50:38photons coming from the outside because
1:50:39it doesn't need to do that. It already
1:50:40has the model. It's only when something
1:50:42surprising happens, if a bird flies into
1:50:45the room right now, it's like, you know,
1:50:47super surprising. Then you'll be like, I
1:50:49didn't expect that, your brain will
1:50:51start actually allowing more of what's
1:50:53coming from the outside in so it can get
1:50:55informed. Okay, whoa, whoa, it's not
1:50:56what I thought. Uh, is it this? Is it
1:50:58this? And then it's tries to guess
1:51:00adjacently like what is it close to what
1:51:02I thought it was? And eventually you
1:51:03will find it because it knows what the
1:51:04bird is, it it's surprising, but not
1:51:07that surprising, right? But if a
1:51:09leprechaun just like a pops right here,
1:51:12it will take your brain a moment to kind
1:51:14of go like, you know what? It like
1:51:16there's going to be a lot more that
1:51:18would need to happen. Now imagine if the
1:51:20leprechaun is made out of new dimensions
1:51:22that you've never seen before. Let's say
1:51:24it really is. where your brain doesn't
1:51:27have in in the repertoire that it built
1:51:29in the the the the the library of kind
1:51:32of things that it expects to see. It
1:51:35doesn't have that image. It has to
1:51:37construct it in real time. And that's a
1:51:40very patchy kind of it looks like a
1:51:41ransom node. Like it's it doesn't really
1:51:43know how to do that. So it needs to
1:51:45almost like experience it a few times
1:51:46and then say, "Okay, okay, okay, let's
1:51:47let's put something it will create a new
1:51:49world model." And the reason that this
1:51:51is relevant is because when you smoke
1:51:52DMT,
1:51:54the content isn't just nonsense and
1:51:57craziness and, you know, like just
1:51:59complete mayhem. No, no, it's super
1:52:02coherent. It's more coherent than this,
1:52:06but way more complex. So, from
1:52:09everything I just described to you, from
1:52:12that perspective, it's very difficult to
1:52:13explain this because the brain is not in
1:52:15the business of making up new complex
1:52:17content on the fly. It's not what it
1:52:19does. Where is it coming from? Why is it
1:52:21so coherent and so realistic? That is
1:52:24the kind of central questions that
1:52:26scientists asking themselves. So from
1:52:29that perspective, it's a it's a pretty
1:52:31it's a pretty good ground to stand on to
1:52:33assume that actually that content is
1:52:35real.
1:52:42Let's talk about these entities. Can we
1:52:44talk about those now?
1:52:45>> Of course. So we talked about angelic
1:52:49demonic
1:52:50reptilian and two others
1:52:53>> insecttoids.
1:52:54>> Insecttoids
1:52:55>> and jokers that I mentioned I think.
1:52:56Yeah.
1:52:57>> What what are these?
1:52:58>> So from what I saw and again I'm going
1:53:02to speak freely but please understand
1:53:03that I I don't expect people just going
1:53:05to take my word for it of course but I'm
1:53:06just speaking from my experience so far
1:53:08from what I understand uh it's not the
1:53:11source. So like the source would be like
1:53:13kind of like way way way way above that
1:53:15and then it kind of disseminates
1:53:18uh these tasks of rendering these worlds
1:53:21to a to um contractors let's call it and
1:53:26these species they all kind of produce
1:53:28their own function and they working
1:53:29towards the greater good of all from
1:53:32what I saw
1:53:34uh the the beings that are rendering our
1:53:37physical universe so what is simulated
1:53:40is not earth it's the universe it's the
1:53:41whole universe uh are the insecttoids.
1:53:44So the insecttoids are the the ones that
1:53:47actually rendering our world which is
1:53:49also why they are so common in people's
1:53:52perception. People very often see the
1:53:53insectoids.
1:53:54>> What do they look like?
1:53:56>> Uh a lot of different kinds. Some of
1:53:57them look like straight up like praying
1:53:59mantises. Some of them look like
1:54:00centipedes. Some of them look like
1:54:02spiders. They're they're enormous.
1:54:04They're the some of them like some
1:54:05people report they're the size of a
1:54:06planet. Like they're enormous. And I
1:54:09think they uh it seems like they're
1:54:10weaving physical reality and they are
1:54:13responsible for the fidelity of like so
1:54:14the universe doesn't kind of fall apart.
1:54:16So like they obviously it's automated
1:54:17but also they kind of do the error
1:54:19correction when it needs to to happen.
1:54:21And again this is already like a super
1:54:23wild thought. So you know but in for a
1:54:26penny in for a pound. So we'll keep
1:54:27compounding the craziness. Uh it might
1:54:31be it makes sense to me that they would
1:54:33be dark matter. So like the galaxy might
1:54:36be their city. So they're kind of like
1:54:38the behind the scenes is what dark
1:54:40matter is. It's a mass that they're
1:54:42that's the layer that they're at. It's
1:54:45their way of cloaking themselves from
1:54:46us. So they can literally just they see
1:54:49us like you see me and they can pull any
1:54:52part of the universe to themselves
1:54:54almost like on a you know just to just
1:54:56order it just like you move your hand
1:54:58towards you. They can just kind of move
1:54:59any part of any time and any space. They
1:55:02can just move it towards them and look
1:55:03at it. They can just be aware of it
1:55:05basically. and they basically weave the
1:55:07physical universe. Um that's the
1:55:10insectoids. Um they're very um neutral
1:55:15which a lot of people are disturbed by
1:55:17because I think very often people are
1:55:18are expecting to feel something
1:55:21benevolent and caring and loving but
1:55:24they're not. But they're als they're not
1:55:26evil. They just don't care in the same
1:55:28way that we think of caring, right? They
1:55:29just kind of do the physical thing. So
1:55:32very often this expectation that people
1:55:34have of this caring thing and the
1:55:36distance between that and the fact that
1:55:38they're just very neutral feels almost
1:55:39like a negative. It's almost like
1:55:41picking up an empty uh milk carton. You
1:55:43know it's like ah like you wanted it to
1:55:45be full but and it kind of feels like
1:55:46that. Um
1:55:49I mean I can say more but I feel like
1:55:51you know it's just there's so many kind
1:55:54of small details details there that I
1:55:56feel like won't really mean much to
1:55:57people. Um there's uh the jokers are
1:56:00interesting because they seem to be
1:56:04extremely powerful. So like they seem to
1:56:06be one of the most powerful beings in
1:56:07existence outside of the source of
1:56:09course. And basically they seem to be
1:56:11kind of playing between the layers. So
1:56:13they don't really belong to any
1:56:14particular layer of existence. They can
1:56:16jump from the lowest to the highest in a
1:56:18split of a second. And there's something
1:56:20about them that basically encapsulates
1:56:22both the ying and the yang at the same
1:56:24time. So they they're both the dark and
1:56:27the light all at once because in order
1:56:29for the creator so like in order for God
1:56:33almighty to experience something it has
1:56:35to have through it has to be through a
1:56:37boundary. But because the source is not
1:56:39a boundary it's just the collective
1:56:41totality of all things. Uh it needs kind
1:56:44of like the senses of experiencing it.
1:56:46So somebody somewhere in existence has
1:56:49to be able to experience the totality of
1:56:52both the dark and the light at the same
1:56:54time. And it seems that they are the
1:56:56ones that were chosen to do that. The
1:56:58gift that they were given as a
1:57:00reciprocation for that work which is
1:57:02very difficult because it's almost like
1:57:03they don't know what they are in every
1:57:05given moment. Um is the fact that
1:57:07they're one of the most powerful being.
1:57:09They can just do anything. They can just
1:57:11move faster than anything, get anywhere
1:57:13they want. They they can literally do
1:57:14anything.
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1:59:03So, this is also very often why when
1:59:05people see them, it feels very jarring
1:59:06because they're they're a lot. They're,
1:59:10you know, u like
1:59:13>> um that's the reason they're called the
1:59:15jokers cuz they're they uh I think I've
1:59:18once seen them kind of like one of them
1:59:20making itself into a shape, but it's
1:59:22more the vibe they exert, not the it's
1:59:24almost like the feeling of their
1:59:26presence more than anything. Yeah. But
1:59:28you would equate it to like a almost
1:59:31like a and I'm going to use a word that
1:59:33is going to brand them as negative.
1:59:36They're not. They're literally both.
1:59:38They're also benevolent at the same
1:59:39time. But it feels like a deranged
1:59:44like a very manic
1:59:47um
1:59:48what would you call them? Like a you
1:59:50know like a freak show thing in like a
1:59:53in a carnival, right? And that's, by the
1:59:55way, one of the archetypes that DMT is
1:59:57compared to is like the multi like
1:59:58multi-dimensional carnival, basically,
2:00:01like a circus of some sort. Uh, but I've
2:00:03also caught uh them in in quite a few
2:00:06moments where you they do a really good
2:00:08thing or they really care. So, like
2:00:10they're really
2:00:12undecipherable
2:00:14and that's seems to be by design. Like
2:00:16they're undecipherable to themselves.
2:00:18They don't really know like they just
2:00:19experience this dichconomy all at once
2:00:22basically. And there's all kind, you
2:00:23know, there's all kinds of other um like
2:00:26the the By the way, I I've definitely
2:00:30seen the uh reptilians quite a bit. The
2:00:33real ones, they don't seem to have any
2:00:35relationship to kind of the the
2:00:37conspiracy theory idea of the reptilians
2:00:39of like the evil ones that conspiring
2:00:41and doing all the they don't seem to be
2:00:43that at all. like they're just, you
2:00:44know, they kind of do their thing and
2:00:47they're actually they seem to be the
2:00:48custodians of uh of um um what would you
2:00:52call it? Well, I guess wisdom and
2:00:54knowledge like that's kind of like their
2:00:55domain like understanding what things
2:00:58are, how they work. That kind of like
2:01:00that seems to be more of their domain.
2:01:03>> Are you interacting with these
2:01:05>> with the insecttoids a lot? Yeah. Yeah,
2:01:07I see them every time I go.
2:01:08>> What kind of interactions?
2:01:09>> I for the most part I just kind of see
2:01:11them. Um, sometimes it would stop and
2:01:14look at me and try to like do something
2:01:16or say something. Uh, I I've identified
2:01:19a signal from what I guess you would
2:01:20call the government. So like I know when
2:01:22an official statement is made versus
2:01:24just somebody told you something. It
2:01:27feels different like you got an official
2:01:28email by you know someone and uh so that
2:01:31that's always interesting because then I
2:01:32kind of rely on the signal to to tell me
2:01:34what is more or less likely. I was uh
2:01:38projected uh a few times to I guess what
2:01:40you would call the heavenly realms and
2:01:43obviously everything you would imagine
2:01:44it to be just like super pleasant very
2:01:47welcoming but there's still a gravity to
2:01:49the situation. It's very interesting
2:01:51like even when you in the heavenly
2:01:53realms you understand the kind of the
2:01:56what's at stake like you kind of feel
2:01:58the you know there's not like in that
2:02:01sense it's not a game you know what I
2:02:03mean um but you can feel the the you
2:02:06know the caricature version of what you
2:02:08would expect kind of like heavenly
2:02:09realms to be which is kind of like this
2:02:10very welcoming light uh a lot of like
2:02:14deep wisdom you know and the implication
2:02:17of whatever that is like the ultimate
2:02:19the God Almighty basically which is
2:02:22just you know the scale of that is just
2:02:24so unfathomable. It really is like words
2:02:28are sounds so empty when you say it when
2:02:30you're in the presence of that and I'm
2:02:31sure some people experience this. It's
2:02:33just you're like wo really wo like oh my
2:02:39like yeah you you tear up and you're
2:02:42like that's I can totally understand how
2:02:45if somebody lives in the presence of
2:02:46that all the time it's like it plays a
2:02:48big role in how how profoundly you feel
2:02:50about life.
2:02:55Let's talk about this intervenous
2:02:58DMT.
2:02:59What did you come up with that? No. Who
2:03:02came up with that?
2:03:03>> No, no, no, no, no. There's uh so uh
2:03:06actually Dr. So Dr. Rick Strasman did
2:03:09these experiments in the 90s,
2:03:11>> but if I'm not mistaken, those were not
2:03:13sustained states. Those were were what's
2:03:16called push. So like I connect you to an
2:03:18introvenous thing, but mostly I'm just
2:03:19kind of like shooting you with a bunch
2:03:21of it, right?
2:03:23>> Uh and Dr. Andrew Gallamore worked
2:03:25actually with Dr. Rick Strasman and uh
2:03:28he basically realized that you can use
2:03:31the same technology we use in anesthesia
2:03:34to sustain DMD in the blood cuz it's
2:03:35actually not that simple as people think
2:03:37like you actually have to figure out a
2:03:38lot because the brain chemistry changes
2:03:41there's metabolism happening certain
2:03:43substances metabolize faster than others
2:03:45you have to really think about all of
2:03:47these parameters at once and there's
2:03:49equations that describe the exact amount
2:03:51that you have to inject in the beginning
2:03:54after 5 minutes after 15 and it's it
2:03:56changes right so he realized you can use
2:04:00probably the same technology uh to do
2:04:02the same with DMT and that's basically
2:04:05how we have what we have today and
2:04:07there's quite a few research known
2:04:08researchers doing this Dr. Chris
2:04:10Timberman in the Imperial College in
2:04:12London Dr. John Dean in San Diego you'll
2:04:15see San Diego uh I think there's a few
2:04:18others but basically yeah Dr. Andrew
2:04:20Galmore is the one that kind of dialed
2:04:21it in and then people use this
2:04:23technology to do it. We use Kevin and
2:04:26Haley in in Colorado. They're
2:04:27incredible. Uh Kevin is the chemist. Uh
2:04:31Haley is the nurse. They're also a
2:04:32couple. And they created this like
2:04:33beautiful thing for you. There's also uh
2:04:36another possibility for people. They can
2:04:38go to uh Elusis, which is uh Dr. Andrew
2:04:43Galmore is involved with that. It's in
2:04:45uh St. Vincent's. It's um it's in these
2:04:48uh islands. It's really beautiful. It's
2:04:50like you're in paradise. Uh it's a it's
2:04:52a it's a more expensive experience, but
2:04:55it's worth it. So, like if you can
2:04:56afford it, it's definitely worth it
2:04:57because you're surrounded by
2:04:59professionals. You have a doctor there,
2:05:00you know, they create a really beautiful
2:05:02environment for you. Uh and you do it
2:05:05across multiple days. So, you show up
2:05:07and it's like a whole retreat where
2:05:08every day you go and you do a session
2:05:10and they, you know, they do a
2:05:12questionnaire for you. They make sure
2:05:13that there's integration. So, there's a
2:05:16lot of options on the table today. Oh,
2:05:17and it's completely legal, by the way,
2:05:19for anybody who's like worried about
2:05:20legalities. So, like they have a
2:05:22license, an agreement with the
2:05:23government of the island to do this
2:05:25completely legal. So, it's not illegal
2:05:28there, right? And they're planning to
2:05:30extend that to do more things. So, if
2:05:32anybody is worried about the legal
2:05:33question, that's definitely your
2:05:35address. Um, in Colorado, it's
2:05:37decriminalized. So, it's not a criminal
2:05:39offense, but it's not legal federally.
2:05:41So, you know, depending where you kind
2:05:43of But yeah, it's a very beautiful
2:05:45experience. you uh as I told you before
2:05:48we started uh shooting it's it's a to
2:05:50some degree it can be easier than
2:05:52smoking it because you you can dial it
2:05:55down or up as much as you want and you
2:05:56can communicate in real time and if you
2:05:59want they'll give you a bolus and you
2:06:00you know you'll go and if you want
2:06:03they'll keep you there indefinitely but
2:06:05you can do this for hours basically
2:06:06that's what uh Chase saw me do it and he
2:06:09was like I got to do it and he did it
2:06:10and you know his experience was very
2:06:11blissful
2:06:14and by the way if you don't mind I saw
2:06:15that you saying that you kind of you
2:06:17it's hard for you to trust like the
2:06:19people and I think that's key. I think
2:06:21it's very important. Uh but this is
2:06:23where kind of getting to know pe getting
2:06:25to know the people before really helps.
2:06:28>> Um I'm pretty sure you're a pretty good
2:06:29character judge and when you talk to
2:06:31Kevin and Haley you like know right away
2:06:33they're like oh they're like
2:06:35>> they're like
2:06:38I've been off a couple of times. So but
2:06:41um I let's talk about the actual
2:06:43experience. I mean, is it that much? I
2:06:47mean, how high did you go?
2:06:49>> I went pretty far. I spent 5 hours in
2:06:52there. So, uh I think Chase did just
2:06:54slightly under that. Um I went with 46.
2:06:57It ended up being 464 milligrams, which
2:07:00is an enormous amount. So, uh but we
2:07:03weren't trying to like break records or
2:07:04anything. We were just testing. We were
2:07:06testing a bunch of things and we were
2:07:07shooting for the film. So, there was
2:07:09like camera crew there and we're like we
2:07:11just kept on going basically. uh and in
2:07:13that's actually one of the times where I
2:07:15experienced the heavenly realms like I
2:07:16was brought up to this you know
2:07:18incredible field of light and I was
2:07:20welcomed and all of that stuff and then
2:07:22they were talking about the that whole
2:07:26experience for me was around the whole
2:07:28the importance of the moral question
2:07:31ethics what true morality is how it
2:07:33influences not just us but the general
2:07:36like the the rest of the field and
2:07:37things like this it's very beautiful but
2:07:39again with the whole kind of like the
2:07:41gravity of the situation So that but
2:07:43that was that was the majority of my
2:07:45experience. But we were also very busy
2:07:47doing other things like looking at the
2:07:49laser and doing all kinds of tests, you
2:07:51know. So it was a it was it was a mixed
2:07:53bag in that regard. It wasn't I really
2:07:56like the space. So for me, I can I can
2:07:58probably stay there pretty much
2:07:59indefinitely if you take care of my
2:08:00body. I can stay there. Um but it's not
2:08:04that way for everybody. So everybody
2:08:06have to ask themselves if how
2:08:07comfortable they are with novelty
2:08:08because it's dialed up to 100 basically.
2:08:12Interesting. Interesting. And how how
2:08:15long were you in the heaven labor room?
2:08:17Do you know?
2:08:17>> Uh the majority of it probably like an
2:08:19hour or two until somebody pulled my
2:08:21attention towards the test we were
2:08:22doing.
2:08:22>> Are you completely out?
2:08:24>> No, I was aware of the room. And you can
2:08:27be you absolutely it can happen of
2:08:29course. Yeah, if you're like fully out,
2:08:30you're fully out. Like it can happen. Um
2:08:33and also maybe an important thing to
2:08:35mention it's darker experiences can
2:08:38happen as well. Now obviously if you do
2:08:40everything correctly so like if you set
2:08:42in setting you set up the space it
2:08:44actually plays a role. It's not just
2:08:46like to make you feel good like there's
2:08:47certain rules and if you kind of abide
2:08:50by these rules the chances of having a
2:08:52dark experience are very low but it can
2:08:54happen and uh then you know just you can
2:08:58always ask to like lower it or you can
2:09:00just have an interaction because in the
2:09:02end of the day uh either people believe
2:09:04it or not everything including the
2:09:07darkest of entities they're all the
2:09:09children of God they're all they're all
2:09:11encapsulated within the the blanket
2:09:14where God still always keeps some door
2:09:17open for them to some degree. So, in
2:09:20that regard, they're not different than
2:09:21us. So, they're, you know, they have uh
2:09:23you have to if if you're interested, you
2:09:25can kind of if you're already there, if
2:09:26that happens, it might be interesting to
2:09:28actually have an interaction. Doesn't
2:09:30mean that you're playing ball. It's just
2:09:32to observe and set up your own boundary.
2:09:34And that can also be an interesting
2:09:36exploration which by the way a lot of
2:09:38people use for kind of dealing with
2:09:40their own demons cuz very often we have
2:09:43stuff inside of us that we don't admit
2:09:45but that can actually be a reflection of
2:09:47that then can be showing you something
2:09:49that you might need to address but I'm
2:09:51only mentioning it because we we have to
2:09:53be responsible we have to acknowledge
2:09:55the fact that yeah darker experiences
2:09:57happen as well for sure.
2:10:01>> Do you think we should be messing around
2:10:02with these realms? Do you think this is
2:10:04one realm or are you witnessing several
2:10:08realms?
2:10:08>> It's the infinite. Yeah, it's the
2:10:10infinite space.
2:10:11>> Um, you're asking a good question, but I
2:10:13think it's just the same question of
2:10:15should we messing around be messing
2:10:16around with anything. You the t the
2:10:21the gene that we carry that tells us
2:10:24don't venture out of the village is a to
2:10:27some degree a good one cuz you want to
2:10:30stay where it's safer. But if you will
2:10:32never venture out of the village, you'll
2:10:35never discover anything new and you will
2:10:36never better the world. And wolves will
2:10:39still come to the village. There's no
2:10:41plateau where danger is gone completely.
2:10:43It's like by going out of the village,
2:10:45by venturing out, you are endangering
2:10:47yourself to some degree, but you're also
2:10:49discovering things that can actually
2:10:50feed the village that that can actually
2:10:53make things better. And I think that's
2:10:54what humans are. They are the kind of
2:10:56thing that allows the world to become a
2:11:00better version of itself. If we choose
2:11:02to be that kind of a thing and play that
2:11:03role, if we choose to be something else
2:11:06and just be selfish, then it won't be
2:11:08that. But I I do think that this fear is
2:11:11to some degree merited because, you
2:11:13know, you never know what you're messing
2:11:14up. But the reality of it is that you
2:11:16kind of only go by what you're
2:11:18experiencing in real time. So when you
2:11:20go and experience the darker entities,
2:11:22you go like, "Oh my god, you know, maybe
2:11:24I didn't want to experience that." But
2:11:26when you experience the really positive
2:11:27ones, you're really happy you did that.
2:11:30So maybe you say, well maybe then
2:11:32because both extremes exist, maybe we
2:11:35should just stay where we are.
2:11:36Legitimate legitimate uh attitude.
2:11:38That's fine. But I think when people can
2:11:41explore, I think it's in our nature. I
2:11:43think we're we're we're the kind of
2:11:45thing that wants to explore that wants
2:11:47to go out. It's just it's just it's just
2:11:48what we do, right?
2:11:50>> Uh so I think that's not really a
2:11:52question of should we is that's how we
2:11:54are. Um and um and to some degree I
2:11:57think there's again healthy respect and
2:12:02the ability to you know be humble at the
2:12:04same time and correct course if needed
2:12:07very important but you can't stop a dog
2:12:12a dog from sniffing right that's what we
2:12:14do that's kind of
2:12:16>> and the fact that it's available like
2:12:17think about this like
2:12:19>> oh okay well I guess
2:12:22what I was about to say is that The fact
2:12:24that it's possible to do tells you that,
2:12:27you know, there's something there. But I
2:12:29immediately thought of a fair criticism
2:12:31of this point, which is like, well,
2:12:32maybe it was left by, you know, the
2:12:33devil or something because they were
2:12:34they're trying to catch you or
2:12:35something. Yeah. But that would be very
2:12:37hard to explain why there's so many
2:12:39beautiful things in there as well that
2:12:41definitely doesn't belong to that
2:12:42category of things. It feels more like
2:12:43it's just a main artery or more of and
2:12:47we get to kind of interact with it. With
2:12:49the full admission, this is not for
2:12:51everybody. I don't think just like
2:12:53everything else skydiving is not for
2:12:55everybody going to space is not for
2:12:57everybody but it is for some people
2:12:59>> and those are not competitions like if
2:13:02you look if you ask the more kind of big
2:13:06question about humans in general people
2:13:07think that you know going to Mars is
2:13:09somehow uh uh somehow negating fixing
2:13:15global warming or like f has nothing to
2:13:17do with it like you some people will do
2:13:20this no matter what like because that's
2:13:22who they are. They want to go explore.
2:13:23They're they're pioneers, right?
2:13:25>> Some people they love here. They love
2:13:28dirt. They love gardening. They
2:13:30beautiful. Those are not mutually
2:13:31exclusive. You need someone to take care
2:13:33of home and you need someone to go and
2:13:35venture out of the village to find new
2:13:37things that you and you can bring back
2:13:39and hopefully can feed the village as
2:13:41well with new beautiful things. But what
2:13:43we will discover by trying even if we
2:13:45never get there I think we will but even
2:13:46if we never will just by trying to do
2:13:48this we will learn so much that can
2:13:50probably help us solve global warming.
2:13:52So there's you know there's there always
2:13:53reciprocal if people just understand
2:13:55that it's not we're not all the same.
2:13:58Some people are they want to see the new
2:14:00thing they wanted the future and some
2:14:02people they just want to stay put. They
2:14:04just want to take care of home. One
2:14:06thing I will say as somebody who
2:14:08definitely one of the people that loves
2:14:10exploring,
2:14:11you know, home is an interesting word to
2:14:13use here because home is home. But if
2:14:17you if you're still at home at 43 years
2:14:20old,
2:14:21something's kind of off, isn't it? Like
2:14:23your mom's going to start looking at you
2:14:25like, "What's going on here?" You know
2:14:26what I mean? It's like, I think it's
2:14:28time to go and explore. So, you know,
2:14:31home is great and it's always going to
2:14:32be here, but we also we might we're
2:14:35becoming young adults as a species. So,
2:14:36I think we're it's actually we're ripe
2:14:38for let's go and find out what what we
2:14:40want to be in the universe and hopefully
2:14:42we can become the kind of species that
2:14:44uh we're proud to be. And I think that's
2:14:46very possible.
2:14:47>> Let's talk about consciousness for a
2:14:49little bit. What what what does it mean
2:14:50to you?
2:14:52>> Consciousness for me is a very simple
2:14:54thing which is just the fact of
2:14:55experience itself. So just the fact that
2:14:58anything is happening at all, how it
2:15:00comes about is a separate question. But
2:15:01if you ask me what consciousness is,
2:15:03it's just the fact that anything is
2:15:04happening right now. It's the only thing
2:15:06you know for sure. Consciousness, you
2:15:09know, sometimes people say, "Can
2:15:10consciousness be an illusion?" No, it's
2:15:13the one thing that can't possibly be an
2:15:15illusion because if you're asking the
2:15:17question, I just released a short clip
2:15:19of this recently. If you're asking the
2:15:21question, is it actually
2:15:24what you're experiencing or just seems
2:15:27to be that way? The seeming itself, the
2:15:30fact that it seems like anything is what
2:15:33consciousness is. We're not asking how
2:15:35it came about. Just the fact that it's
2:15:36happening, right? That's what
2:15:37consciousness is. So, it cannot possibly
2:15:40be an illusion. It's the one thing you
2:15:41can take to the bank that for sure
2:15:43consciousness is the only thing you know
2:15:45that is actually happening. Everything
2:15:47else can be an illusion. your ideas
2:15:48about the universe like whatever it is
2:15:50that can't be because you have it that
2:15:52this is it that's what it is and then
2:15:55that actually begs the question whether
2:15:57consciousness is fundamental which to me
2:15:59seems to be like very obvious of course
2:16:01like it it has to be fundamental it is
2:16:04the most fundamental thing and then
2:16:06everything else probably arises from it
2:16:08to some degree but not all consciousness
2:16:10is what we experience there's all kinds
2:16:13of levels and and types of
2:16:16consciousnesses we are a very particular
2:16:19agentlike consciousness which is kind of
2:16:22like this inwards pointing thing where
2:16:24you you believe yourself to be behind
2:16:26your eyes between your ears and the rest
2:16:28is happening out there but even from
2:16:30meditative states I can tell you that
2:16:32you can have experiences that are not
2:16:35embodied like you can just be diffused
2:16:36cloud well you did five so you know
2:16:38>> you can just be a diffused cloud of
2:16:40consciousness and that's probably how
2:16:42most consciousness is
2:16:44>> where does it come from
2:16:45>> I think it's literally the world itself
2:16:48It's a question of where the world comes
2:16:50from which what
2:16:51>> do you think we're a shared
2:16:52consciousness?
2:16:53>> I think we have a shared pool of that
2:16:55consciousness that we can enter but then
2:16:58the the the agency is also arising from
2:17:01it. So like the separation also means
2:17:03something like for this level of
2:17:05emergence the separation is necessary to
2:17:07do something and then we can enter a
2:17:10state in which literally you and me are
2:17:11the same.
2:17:14Did I read somewhere that you you think
2:17:16that there are
2:17:19levels of consciousness?
2:17:21>> Mhm.
2:17:22>> Could you go through that?
2:17:23>> Yeah. So I guess it will be all the way
2:17:25to the unified field or God or like just
2:17:28the totality of everything that can be.
2:17:31And I guess that's what uh well if you
2:17:34look at it from a certain perspective
2:17:36maybe this is why this is what Buddhists
2:17:39refer to as nirvana which is just the
2:17:41totality of just ex existence. It's like
2:17:43there's no more there's nothing that can
2:17:46be said about it. There's nothing can be
2:17:47done about it. It's not a thing. It's
2:17:49just the totality of all. And the levels
2:17:53in between are basically level of agency
2:17:55like how how much your agentike
2:18:00consciousness perceives itself to be. So
2:18:02maybe your cells are conscious but
2:18:04they're not as conscious as you because
2:18:06the amount of information that you
2:18:09embody at the same time is way greater
2:18:12than what any one cell does. And I do
2:18:15feel like that's basically like these
2:18:17infinite nested dolls. So maybe earth is
2:18:20also conscious and like literally but
2:18:22not just physical things like it kind of
2:18:23gets into this it gets very esoteric but
2:18:27this you know conference that I
2:18:29mentioned to you with Donald Hoffman and
2:18:30Dr. Andrew Galmore, this colonel that
2:18:33they're talking about. It's actually a
2:18:34super interesting theory and it really
2:18:36to be honest it was a very small closed
2:18:39event but to me it felt like something
2:18:42happened like it felt like an inflection
2:18:44point in history in that conference like
2:18:46something huge happened which is this
2:18:48understanding that they have. I think
2:18:50they unlocked something huge. So you'll
2:18:51be hearing a lot about this and you
2:18:53should look up Donald Hoffman. He's
2:18:54actually trending like he was on all the
2:18:57big ones like it might be a very really
2:18:59interesting conversation for you. Um and
2:19:02basically what what they found is that
2:19:04there's this one component which is what
2:19:06they call the the kernel of experience
2:19:09which is it defines if this is all the
2:19:12possible field of of experiences you can
2:19:14have what the kernel determines is how
2:19:17big is the pool from which you're
2:19:19sampling from. So what they think is
2:19:21happening is that the human experience
2:19:22is kind of like maybe here, right? DMT
2:19:25does this. It just kind of samples from
2:19:27a much larger pool of what's possible to
2:19:29experience and then the experience might
2:19:31become not just more of but it it can
2:19:34become a completely different kind of
2:19:36thing.
2:19:38So it it can all of a sudden you you
2:19:40know it's not something that is
2:19:42languageable. You it's not English. You
2:19:44can't really put words to it because
2:19:47those words don't exist. It's just a
2:19:48completely different reformulation. And
2:19:51this is why defining just the layers is
2:19:53very hard of consciousness cuz it might
2:19:55not work like in a uh like a hierarchy.
2:19:59It might work more like a different
2:20:00arrangements of which makes it way more
2:20:03complex.
2:20:05>> H
2:20:07what about the physical?
2:20:08>> That's a great question. That's why I
2:20:10ask myself all the time. If it's all
2:20:12mind, why this particular region of mind
2:20:15feels so regular? feels so like
2:20:17something like I can't really control,
2:20:19right? I I I don't really have a good
2:20:21answer for it yet, but I think that has
2:20:23something to do with uh fidelity of
2:20:26local structure. So like it's part of
2:20:29the training wheels. It's part of the
2:20:30kind of the grace of God cuz if you
2:20:32would just be if anything would be
2:20:33anything, you wouldn't be able to exist
2:20:35like you know if you would just fall
2:20:37through the chair through the floor all
2:20:38of a sudden you'd be like okay what's
2:20:40going on? Like you can't trust anything.
2:20:41I think the fidelity of this construct
2:20:44is actually one of the gifts that we've
2:20:46gi we were given and if it's the
2:20:48training ground then maybe because if
2:20:51everything you would just think would
2:20:53become immediately
2:20:55it would devolve into hell immediately
2:20:57like how many negative thoughts people
2:20:59have every day like enormous amounts
2:21:01right
2:21:01>> so maybe this is what it is that we're
2:21:03learning how to control our inner state
2:21:06so there's this hiatus that gives us
2:21:08some grace so we we see if things go in
2:21:11the wrong direction and we can get to
2:21:12correct them. We we we're giving time to
2:21:15process what this how things unfold. So
2:21:18I think maybe with the physical world is
2:21:20it's the the stage that was created to
2:21:23help us learn
2:21:25to become more of what we're capable of
2:21:28being.
2:21:29You know, I've heard um back to that
2:21:32intervenous
2:21:34DMT experience, you know,
2:21:37had people tell me that that you meet
2:21:40your guardian angels, that you meet um
2:21:44you figure out who you are, you can ask
2:21:47questions. I mean,
2:21:50>> on DMT
2:21:51>> on DMT, the intervenous one.
2:21:55>> Okay. So, are you asking me if that if
2:21:57I'm expanding? asking you.
2:21:59>> Um,
2:22:01I've never met my guardian angel. Uh,
2:22:03I've never met met what people call the
2:22:05guides.
2:22:06>> The guides.
2:22:07>> Yeah. Some people refer to him as the
2:22:08guides. Like they when people wake up
2:22:10spiritually very often they refer to the
2:22:12guides. Like people kind of like they
2:22:14tell them what's the correct thing.
2:22:16>> I I don't know. I don't want to like
2:22:18I've met people that are very kind of
2:22:20spiritually awake.
2:22:23It's definitely feels like something to
2:22:25be in their presence. So there's
2:22:26something different. So I tend to
2:22:28believe them, but I don't have a way to
2:22:30know if that just like a psychological
2:22:33structure that was created in them, you
2:22:34know, like I've never experienced it. Is
2:22:36it possible? Yeah. It would make perfect
2:22:38sense that, you know, they would be kind
2:22:40of because they're ready. They're kind
2:22:42of guided a little bit more than others
2:22:44to kind of help other humans and all
2:22:45that stuff.
2:22:46>> You you kind of hear them say, you know,
2:22:47they they figure out who they are.
2:22:49What's what's
2:22:50>> who am I? Like you hear that a lot in
2:22:53the in the in the psychedelic realm,
2:22:55right? Who am I? What's my purpose?
2:22:58>> So, it's kind of hard to know who's
2:22:59faking it and who actually made it,
2:23:00right? Uh but yeah, no, I I I think that
2:23:03refers more to the the whole Buddhistic
2:23:05approach of um that ultimately you're
2:23:08none of the content. Well, it actually
2:23:11gets a little kind of fumbled by by a
2:23:13lot of people that you mention because
2:23:14there's this tendency to say, I've
2:23:16discovered I'm all of this. So, like I'm
2:23:18not just the little me with my
2:23:20psychology. I'm I'm the totality of all
2:23:22things. When and and it it it's try I
2:23:26think to some degree it's try it tries
2:23:27to echo what what Buddhists say. But
2:23:30what Buddhists say is a little bit
2:23:31deeper than this. Buddhists don't say
2:23:33you're the totality of things. They're
2:23:35saying you're none of the things. You're
2:23:38the field in which all the things arise.
2:23:40So the referral is probably to that
2:23:43experience that you basically discover
2:23:45that there's not like little me
2:23:47struggling in the machine. you're
2:23:49actually just the experience itself in
2:23:51which everything happens. There's
2:23:53actually a really fun practice that you
2:23:54can do anywhere. Uh it's uh it's an old
2:23:58Buddhist practice that was illustrated
2:23:59really well in this book called uh on
2:24:01having no head. Uh and basically anybody
2:24:04can do this anywhere. If you look at an
2:24:06object, right, and you turn your
2:24:09attention back on yourself and in that
2:24:11moment you're asking the question, who
2:24:14is looking? But you're not asking the
2:24:16question because you're trying to find
2:24:18out. You're not trying to answer the
2:24:19question. You just you exist
2:24:23in the question. So like if you look at
2:24:24me right now, right? And it might not
2:24:26happen right away. You can practice a
2:24:27few times. But if you then turn the
2:24:29attention just inside back on yourself
2:24:32and ask who is looking like who is
2:24:34actually where is that thing that is
2:24:36actually looking out? And in the
2:24:38beginning it would be like all these
2:24:40answers which is like what do you mean
2:24:42like me? like here behind my head where
2:24:44I am is well the second you gave it an
2:24:47answer you collapse the possibility of
2:24:49experiencing it but if you allow
2:24:50yourself to not answer just be in the
2:24:52field of that question eventually
2:24:54something will happen and it's a very
2:24:56quick thing so you're not supposed to be
2:24:58like go deeper or something like this
2:24:59just you reset do it again reset do it
2:25:02again eventually what will happen is
2:25:04there will be almost like a like a
2:25:06glitch you'll be like you'll be like
2:25:08you'll realize that that thing you think
2:25:10you're in the middle it's not there
2:25:13there's there's one line that in some
2:25:15Buddhist practices they repeat over and
2:25:16over and over again and they repeated it
2:25:19until it becomes a reality. They say
2:25:21there's no one here that all of this is
2:25:23happening to
2:25:25and they keep repeating this. There's no
2:25:28one here that all of this is happening
2:25:30to. And eventually from the statement
2:25:33you get to the experience of that
2:25:35reality which is actually there's no one
2:25:37here that all of this is happening to.
2:25:39It's just kind of happening. And I've
2:25:41I've experienced this in meditative uh
2:25:44retreats where it just becomes the room.
2:25:47>> What do you mean it just becomes the
2:25:48room?
2:25:49>> It just becomes the room. There's no
2:25:50more agent in the middle. So there's the
2:25:52body is there, but you don't feel like a
2:25:54U. You realize that the U was just a
2:25:57feeling just like you feel elation,
2:26:00anger, love, all the emotions. It's it's
2:26:03just a sensation in the body. the thing
2:26:05that you feel yourself it's a sensation
2:26:07in the body probably created for
2:26:09survival reasons so like um when you
2:26:12refer to things right is because you
2:26:14need to get somewhere I need to get
2:26:16there uh I love whatever uh I dislike
2:26:20whatever when you making these uh you
2:26:23you're referring to something what
2:26:26you're implying is that there's a thing
2:26:27that is there away from what then what's
2:26:32implied is that it's away from
2:26:34something.
2:26:35This implication is what you feel like
2:26:39being a self. It's a feeling of being a
2:26:42you
2:26:44like a central inness of some sort.
2:26:46>> But when you look close enough, you
2:26:47realize it's just all these like
2:26:49outwards pointing vectors. But if you
2:26:51look in the middle, there's nothing
2:26:52there.
2:26:53>> It was all implied by the by the
2:26:55references to the external the external
2:26:57world. But if you relax this machinery
2:26:59and you just stop trying to point, what
2:27:02happens is it just diffuses. Just like
2:27:04in a 5 MO where you just kind of become
2:27:06the field. You there's just the room.
2:27:08There's no psychedelic explosion, but
2:27:10there's literally just the room. And
2:27:12it's very peculiar this feeling this
2:27:14state because it's not really
2:27:16outstanding.
2:27:18It's the most matter of fact you will
2:27:19ever experience. It's almost like, oh,
2:27:22that's just how things are. And the
2:27:24second you you know you get too deeply
2:27:26into that oh this is super interesting
2:27:28then your best self because now you're
2:27:30referring to something but that feeling
2:27:34is very liberating and that's what
2:27:36ultimately liberation is because then
2:27:38there's nothing to defend. There's
2:27:40nothing to worry about. There's nothing
2:27:42there's no one here that all this is
2:27:43happening to. It's just kind of
2:27:44happening. But then that feeling it it
2:27:47you know if you keep pushing it you can
2:27:49expand to not associating with even the
2:27:52concept that brought you there with the
2:27:53body with everything and ultimately
2:27:55according to the Buddha which is what
2:27:57full liberation is nirvana which is that
2:28:00you stop associating even with your own
2:28:02reincarnation. So like in the moment of
2:28:04death you're so non uh attached that
2:28:09you're simply no no longer reincarnated.
2:28:11it's done. Like there's there's nothing.
2:28:14But on a much lower level, you can
2:28:16absolutely have this experience just by
2:28:18this little practice that I just
2:28:19described to you. And and it doesn't
2:28:21take years. Like if you actually
2:28:23consistent with it and you do this like
2:28:24you can do this well well I wouldn't do
2:28:26it when you drive but like you just sit
2:28:28on the couch for a second or something.
2:28:29Just do it with like anything. Just look
2:28:31at a camera. It's easier with natural
2:28:33objects with a bush whatever. Do it a
2:28:35few times. within two or three days, I
2:28:38bet you'll be able to do it and it will
2:28:40be very distinct. It wouldn't be one of
2:28:42those like did I manage to do it? You'll
2:28:44be like, holy Like you will feel
2:28:46that there's actually nothing there. Um
2:28:49it's u and and if it's really hard to
2:28:51grasp why this would be convincing,
2:28:53there's an there's a little kind of this
2:28:56allegory that Buddhists use to describe
2:28:57it. It's called the the snake and the
2:28:58rope allegory. So basically if you if if
2:29:01we see like a snake right in the thing
2:29:03and be like, "Holy shit." You have an
2:29:04emotional response and then it's not
2:29:07moving. So you and I will be like,
2:29:08"Wait, is that cuz it's still kind of
2:29:10far. It's dark. Oh, we think it's a
2:29:12rope." Then you relax, right? So you're
2:29:14going to keep moving between this like,
2:29:16"Is it a snake? Is it a rope? Is it a
2:29:18snake? Is it a rope?" And so it's
2:29:20equated to this fact that there's no
2:29:22self. So you go between experiencing
2:29:24that there is no self to back to being a
2:29:27self. But there's going to come a moment
2:29:29that if we, you know, if I muster the
2:29:31courage and I get up and I walk towards
2:29:33it and I get close enough, there's going
2:29:36to come a moment where the possibilities
2:29:38collapse. Cuz if it is a rope and if I'm
2:29:40close enough and I'm holding it and
2:29:42there's enough information, that's it. I
2:29:44know it's a rope now. And even if I'm
2:29:46going to go back to my seat and leave it
2:29:47there, at no point am I going to all of
2:29:49a sudden believe it's a snake again
2:29:51because I know it's a rope now. So
2:29:52there's a moment of conclusiveness that
2:29:54happens when I when I when I'm close
2:29:56enough. So the experience of having no
2:29:58self,
2:30:00you can have this conclusive experience
2:30:02with in such a way that you will never
2:30:04go back to believing there's a self
2:30:05again. And that's liberation. That's
2:30:08basically kind of like the the ultimate
2:30:09point.
2:30:10>> So is this an is this an ego death?
2:30:14>> Well, you can you can think of it like
2:30:15this. Yeah.
2:30:16>> Is it the same as experiencing the
2:30:17oneness on five?
2:30:20I think the five is accompanied by a lot
2:30:22of other factors as well like the
2:30:24presence of something divine in addition
2:30:25to that which doesn't happen with just
2:30:27the collapsing of the self.
2:30:29>> Uh but but the collapsing of the self is
2:30:31very pleasant.
2:30:32>> It's it's a pure harmony just like how
2:30:35things are. There's no problems.
2:30:36Everything is perfect. Have you ever had
2:30:39sometimes people have this haphazardly
2:30:41but they just don't notice that that's
2:30:42basically what happened. Um, did you
2:30:44ever have like, you know, out of nowhere
2:30:48for no good reason, you just sit there
2:30:49and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh,
2:30:51dude, everything's great." Like just for
2:30:53a moment there's like this like complete
2:30:55relief for no reason. This happens quite
2:30:57often to people and there's and then
2:30:58they go back to worrying and all that
2:31:00stuff. But
2:31:01>> that moment it's very close to that. And
2:31:04by the way, people lose themselves all
2:31:06the time. Uh this is not my example
2:31:08pointed out by many but like when you
2:31:09watch a movie in a theater and you're
2:31:11fully engrossed in the film like you're
2:31:12fully immersed you don't remember you
2:31:15came to watch a movie you don't remember
2:31:16you're there you're just in the movie
2:31:18well yourself was diffused but there's
2:31:21just the movie
2:31:23>> see what I'm saying
2:31:24>> and then when you snap out of it you
2:31:25don't even notice the transition but
2:31:27you're like you eat popcorn it's like
2:31:28now I have a body I eat oh I'm in a
2:31:30theater but you don't think about it and
2:31:31you go back to the movie but imagine
2:31:33that with reality without a movie just
2:31:36like there just there's just the
2:31:38world.
2:31:38>> I think I've reached this before
2:31:41but for
2:31:43maybe a second.
2:31:44>> Yes, exactly. People think sometimes
2:31:46they can oh yeah I can stop thinking for
2:31:48like 30 seconds.
2:31:49>> They can't like hang out in that realm.
2:31:52>> You can if you practice that's what
2:31:54meditation is for. Meditation is not
2:31:56some kind of a magical trick you do.
2:31:58What it is is the use you train the use
2:32:01of your attention in a particular way to
2:32:04bring about that realization or just
2:32:06like stay in that state longer and
2:32:08longer basically and there's techniques
2:32:10to do that.
2:32:16>> I mean so do you have a U?
2:32:19>> Yeah. Yeah. I So for example
2:32:21>> you're able to eliminate the U or
2:32:23collapse it as you say. I mean is
2:32:26>> is there a U? There is no there is no
2:32:29actual you in the sense of like that
2:32:31that's not a thing. It's it's an the
2:32:33reason it's called an illusion is
2:32:34because it's implied in. So like uh if
2:32:37you put uh you know this visual illusion
2:32:39of like four squares
2:32:40>> you're saying you is an invisible is
2:32:42invisible is an emotion. It's
2:32:45>> well I'm I'm giving you a visual
2:32:47example. So if you have four squares and
2:32:49each square has a little thing cut out
2:32:51of it to create the illusion of a circle
2:32:53in the middle.
2:32:56You you you can visualize this right
2:32:57now. Well, that circle is is what the
2:32:59self is. It's implied between because of
2:33:02how the squares are. Squares are real.
2:33:05Circle isn't. It's just implied. And
2:33:07it's exactly the same thing. So now I
2:33:10can't do this on on a fly. That requires
2:33:12a pretty high level of meditators to do
2:33:13this like on a regular basis. I've had
2:33:15it a couple times so I can report on it.
2:33:17But there's some people that claim that
2:33:18they can do this pretty much on the fly.
2:33:20they can just turn it on or turn it off
2:33:23and and you're fully online by the way.
2:33:26You're not like confused or anything.
2:33:27That that'll be the difference between 5
2:33:28MO and something like this. You're a
2:33:30fully coherent person. You can perform
2:33:33tasks, speak. In fact, there's much
2:33:36higher clarity in that state because
2:33:37there's not all this extra work being
2:33:40done to try and, you know, think about
2:33:43what what I am, how I appear. None of
2:33:45this is online. and you just kind of
2:33:47speak.
2:33:51>> What's something I should be asking you
2:33:53that I haven't asked?
2:33:54>> Um, man, what put me on the spot. Um,
2:33:59I don't know. We covered quite a bit.
2:34:01Uh, maybe there's something that
2:34:04Yeah, it's it's something that I guess I
2:34:06already said, how would I think of it in
2:34:08terms of a question is what should we
2:34:11actually be focused on? uh given the
2:34:13fact that we can be aware of so much
2:34:17more of what is possible to know and I'm
2:34:19really passionate about this question
2:34:21because I think that that holds the key
2:34:22for for humanity humanity's future it's
2:34:26very difficult to adopt because it
2:34:27requires actual relinquishing of a lot
2:34:29of the convictions that people hold and
2:34:31it doesn't really matter what it is like
2:34:33if you have a very strong conviction of
2:34:35anything you should lower the volume on
2:34:38that because first of all things in the
2:34:40world are extremely complex And even
2:34:43more so when it's compounded by the fact
2:34:45that you will never really have access
2:34:47to the to the reality of what the
2:34:49situation really is. And this applies,
2:34:51by the way, to anything. So everybody
2:34:53who's their favorite topic rings in
2:34:55their mind, I'm not implying anything.
2:34:57I'm literally speaking about everything.
2:34:58Everything is like this. Um, and the
2:35:02only way that I see that humanity will
2:35:04move into a future that is worth having
2:35:07is if everybody or the majority of
2:35:09people can actually lower the volume of
2:35:12what they think they know for sure and
2:35:14then allow themselves to just experience
2:35:17the true moment there. Now, people like
2:35:20you, for example, you have a lot of
2:35:22reach. So, what you say and what you
2:35:24think actually does do a thing. But for
2:35:26most people,
2:35:28just me leaving a bunch of comments
2:35:30online things. It's just it's not only
2:35:33it's not doing anything. If anything, it
2:35:35just disturbs the field even more. So
2:35:37like the thing that the way that I view
2:35:39it, the thing that where we can move
2:35:41into a future that is truly worth like
2:35:42actually having and being a part of is
2:35:44if people can actually just
2:35:47own their own domain. Like what is it
2:35:49that I've I've said this on on you know
2:35:51many occasions so it might sound a
2:35:53little repetitive to people who follow
2:35:54me but if you are spending 80% of your
2:35:59day criticizing other people even if you
2:36:01think you're punching up right but you
2:36:04haven't done anything today to make
2:36:06someone else's life in your life better.
2:36:09ask your neighbor what they need help
2:36:10with like something that you actually
2:36:12did that is actually do then you're just
2:36:14making noises like it's and you kind of
2:36:17disturbing yourself and everything else
2:36:19and this is why I said it's easier said
2:36:20than done I'm not preaching I'm guilty
2:36:22of this all the time but I when I'm in
2:36:25more you know clearheaded spaces I know
2:36:28that I shouldn't like I know that I if I
2:36:30can I should move towards more and more
2:36:32just kind of focusing on what I can do
2:36:34to make someone next to me feel better
2:36:37uh in a genuine way to help someone to
2:36:39like it also feels a certain way like
2:36:41there's there's a more of like a
2:36:42wholesome feeling to it, right? When you
2:36:44truly do something good. Um, so if we
2:36:46can focus more on that and by the way,
2:36:49this does not eliminate the the fun of
2:36:52interacting with super grand ideas. I
2:36:54love them. But you enjoy them even more
2:36:57if you know you're acting out of a place
2:36:59of of care, of love, u and you're trying
2:37:03to do your best to project the best
2:37:04intentions versus the worst intentions,
2:37:06which is something again, I'm guilty of
2:37:07it all the time. Um, but it it feels
2:37:10different because you get to see
2:37:12possibility
2:37:13there. Okay, there's this book that I
2:37:15forget the name of and I didn't even
2:37:16read to be honest, but the idea that
2:37:18somebody explained to me from the book
2:37:20really resonated. It's something about
2:37:22frames. So, it's all it's all about um
2:37:26how do you what kind of frame you
2:37:27project it around a person. So, let's
2:37:29say if somebody even is trying to pull a
2:37:32fast one on you, right? They're kind of
2:37:34tr trying to pull some right? If
2:37:37if you can do this in a genuine way,
2:37:38which is very tricky. It's very hard cuz
2:37:40usually if you identify that, you go
2:37:42like, "Oh, nobody buddy." You know what
2:37:44I mean? Like you start getting like all
2:37:46you you lock your horns. But if you can
2:37:48just like genuinely project something
2:37:51onto them, like actually see them in a
2:37:54really positive light, but truly they
2:37:56will actually have a very hard time to
2:37:59still do that because people don't want
2:38:02to lose something good. It's a lot more
2:38:04painful to lose something than to g than
2:38:06the the fear of not having it ever. If I
2:38:09just tell you that I would have given
2:38:10you $20 but never gave it to you versus
2:38:13giving you $20 like in a casino and then
2:38:14taking them away from you, you ended up
2:38:16with the with the same amount of money
2:38:18anyway, but that second one was way more
2:38:20painful cuz I took something away from
2:38:21you.
2:38:22>> So if I'm giving you this positive
2:38:23outlook of you again still it has to be
2:38:26within the bounds of reason of course
2:38:28but people if they they will identify
2:38:31that and it would be very hard for them
2:38:33to still do that thing because that mean
2:38:34they will lose that positive outlook of
2:38:36themselves. And if we can just project
2:38:38more of that onto one another and again
2:38:41doesn't mean we have to be delusional.
2:38:42We can still fix everything needs to be
2:38:44fixed and and criticize properly all the
2:38:47things that need to be u criticized. But
2:38:50there's if there's just a little bit
2:38:51more of I guess I guess the word is
2:38:54grace. There's a little bit more grace
2:38:56in the understanding that most people
2:38:58are just trying their best and failing.
2:39:01Most people are not this the you know
2:39:04conniving mustache twirling you know
2:39:06like just just want to mess things up.
2:39:08Most people do their best in failing
2:39:10because they don't know any better. And
2:39:12if we can just have a little bit more of
2:39:13that and we can still take strong action
2:39:16and we can still do everything that
2:39:18needs to be done and we just recognize
2:39:20that the majority of people are not
2:39:21psychopaths. They're just just like
2:39:23everybody else. To me, that's that's the
2:39:26the remedy to try and move the world
2:39:28into a better place because ultimately
2:39:31the world is a collection of personal
2:39:34interactions just on different scales.
2:39:36So, if you can raise a generation of
2:39:37children that is more like that, it's a
2:39:42lot easier to do things in a different
2:39:43way. Uh, and of course, I'm aware that
2:39:46it's uh it seems to be like an infinite
2:39:48infinite distance from us, but I think
2:39:50it's possible. I when I watch my
2:39:52daughter grow, I'm like, I want to do
2:39:54more of that. So So she gets to grow
2:39:56into a world that that she would really
2:39:58enjoy.
2:40:00>> I love that. It's a great way to end
2:40:03this.
2:40:05>> Thank you for having me, Sean.
2:40:06>> Yeah. Thank you for coming. That was uh
2:40:09that was awesome.
2:40:10>> Thank you.
2:40:11>> Thank you.
2:40:12>> I enjoyed it.
2:40:13>> Hope to see you again.
2:40:14>> I hope so, too.
2:40:28No matter where you're watching the
2:40:29Shawn Ryan Show from, if you get
2:40:32anything out of this at all, anything,
2:40:35please like, comment, and subscribe. And
2:40:39most importantly, share this everywhere
2:40:43you possibly can. And if you're feeling
2:40:46extra generous, head to Apple Podcast
2:40:49and Spotify and leave us a

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