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Daniel Ellsberg - The Costa Report - December 19, 2014 — Transcript

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0:13this hour of the costa report is brought
0:16to you by ibm
0:18big data at the speed of business
0:22welcome to the costa report i'm rebecca
0:24costa and thank you for joining me for
0:26another two hours of straight talk radio
0:28i want to take a moment to welcome new
0:30listeners who are joining us in florida
0:32today and also members of our armed
0:34forces who are tuning in over the
0:35internet thank you for being with us in
0:38just a moment the man responsible for
0:41releasing the pentagon papers to the
0:42public and who has been called the first
0:44modern whistleblower mr daniel ellsberg
0:47will be here to talk about the real
0:49meaning of government transparency in
0:52this day of lightning fast
0:53communications where information travels
0:55as quickly to our enemies as it does to
0:58our citizens is transparency dangerous
1:01helzberg's going to answer that question
1:03and also weigh in on the fate of edward
1:05snowden julian assange and bradley
1:07manning but before mr ellsberg joins us
1:10as is my custom each week let me tell
1:12you a little about his background
1:15daniel ellsberg was born in chicago
1:17illinois he earned his undergraduate
1:19degree and phd in economics from harvard
1:21university where he published risk
1:23ambiguity and decision
1:26which marked the beginning of the
1:28ellsberg paradox
1:30between 1954 and 57 ellsberg served in
1:33the u.s marine corps as a platoon leader
1:35operations officer and rifle company
1:37commander
1:39then in 59 he joined the rand
1:41corporation as a consultant to the u.s
1:43defense department and white house
1:45five years later he was appointed
1:47special assistant to assistant secretary
1:49of defense john mcnaughton ellsberg
1:51worked for two years for the state
1:53department at the u.s embassy in saigon
1:56before returning to the rand corporation
1:58to work on a top secret study for then
2:00secretary of defense robert mcnamara
2:04and this is where elsberg's story takes
2:06an unexpected turn
2:08ellsberg turned whistleblower copying a
2:11seven thousand page report which exposed
2:13government wrongdoing a document which
2:15came to be known as the pentagon papers
2:18the new york times in washington post
2:19began publishing the document nelsberg
2:21was charged with 12 felony counts
2:24carrying a sentence of 115 years but
2:27after two years the charges were dropped
2:30owing to overwhelming evidence that the
2:32same individuals who were later
2:34convicted of the watergate break-in were
2:36guilty of criminal misconduct in
2:38ellsberg's case since that time mr
2:41ellsberg has been a vocal activist for
2:43government transparency and oversight in
2:45addition to authoring several books and
2:47speaking on behalf of other
2:49whistleblowers he is the recipient of
2:51the gandhi peace award the ron ridden
2:53hour courage price and the right
2:55livelihood award
2:57it's my pleasure to welcome to the costa
2:59report a man who risked life in prison
3:01for exposing the truth mr daniel
3:03ellsberg welcome to the program mr
3:05ellsberg
3:07thank you very much that was very uh
3:09thorough and and
3:10accurate uh description of my background
3:12thanks a lot well thank you i'll let our
3:15researchers know they got it right
3:17they'll appreciate it that's not always
3:19the case i hate to start a program by
3:22correcting the introduction and i rarely
3:24do i just let it pass so i thought it's
3:26worthy of mentioning it
3:28well thank you i know they're all
3:30nodding their heads and patting
3:31themselves on the back at this moment
3:33now mr ellsberg it is difficult to
3:36believe that it's been more than four
3:38decades since the pentagon papers went
3:39public and i believe you were one of the
3:41first people to be tried under the 1917
3:44espionage act but as i mentioned earlier
3:46all the charges against you were dropped
3:48so for listeners today who may not be
3:51familiar with the reasons the charges
3:53were dismissed i wonder if you'd mind if
3:55we start there because i i think this
3:57will serve as a reminder of exactly what
3:59whistleblowers face when they come
4:01forward
4:03okay well first of all i
4:06will start with a correction here i
4:07wasn't one of the first i was the first
4:09actually which is uh not to claim
4:12precedence here the point is that before
4:14me
4:15uh although the espionage act so-called
4:18which passed in 1917 was
4:20over 50 years old over half a century
4:22old has never been used against someone
4:25who gave information to the american
4:26public it was uh that is leaked on uh
4:29unauthorized disclosure of information
4:32there have been plenty of leaks before
4:33then and of course after then but uh no
4:36one had ever been prosecuted because uh
4:38not to spend a whole hour on this but
4:40because we have we had a revolution uh
4:43which britain did not we have a first
4:46amendment which britain does not and i
4:48mentioned that because therefore we
4:50don't have an official secrets act which
4:53britain does an act that criminalizes
4:56all any and all disclosures of
4:58classified information regardless of
5:00intent or motive or effect and we don't
5:02have such a law we have the espionage
5:04act which was passed to
5:06stop people from giving information
5:08above all to an enemy in wartime
5:10secretly
5:11and
5:12against
5:13willfully against the interests of the
5:15united states
5:16so the intention was
5:18fairly clearly at the time it was passed
5:20not
5:21to apply to americans who gave
5:24information to the american public
5:27now the charges against you were
5:30completely dropped
5:31and they were dropped because the judge
5:34really had no choice
5:35given the amount of evidence that was
5:37presented there was really no
5:38alternative the days went by as one more
5:41uh one
5:43violation after another of uh laws and
5:45the constitution against me were
5:48revealed and indeed the judge kept it
5:50going uh surprisingly long for a couple
5:53of weeks it was a wonderful period
5:54because day after day uh the crimes for
5:57which
5:58president nixon faced impeachment later
6:00and which led him out of office was
6:02being revealed but what i came out then
6:05was that the people working under the
6:08white house uh under the oval office for
6:10president nixon
6:11including a former cia and a former fb
6:14uh howard hunt and a former
6:16fbi agent gordon liddy
6:18uh and a number of cubans who were
6:22former or current assets of the cia
6:24worked on the bay of pigs and whatnot
6:26they had for example
6:29gone and burglarized the office of my
6:31former psychoanalyst in los angeles uh
6:34looking for information
6:36that they could blackmail me with
6:38actually it's it's often said that they
6:39were looking
6:40for information to slander me with or
6:43hurt my reputation exactly they wanted
6:45to discredit you as a source well yes no
6:48that was misleading because i'd already
6:50put out the pentagon papers i was on
6:52trial for it and what they wanted was
6:54information they could threaten me
6:56let me know that they had it and keep me
6:59from revealing more the key thing there
7:01we'll come back to this i think the key
7:03thing was that they feared with reason
7:06that i had information on the nixon
7:07administration itself that i could yet
7:10put out that wasn't in the pentagon
7:12papers which which ended before nixon
7:14came into office and they wanted to
7:17threaten me illegally
7:19to keep me from putting out that further
7:21information that he was threatening
7:23nuclear war at the time over vietnam to
7:26north vietnam in particular that was
7:28their concern they wanted that to be
7:30secret then uh when they didn't find
7:33information they could use them in the
7:34office
7:36they were illegally
7:38overhearing me on wiretaps that were
7:40without a warrant which were in those
7:42days illegal and uh were up till today
7:46until 2006
7:48when the current
7:50bush administration wiretaps without
7:52warrants were were somewhat legalized by
7:55the congress
7:56and then uh they brought people up to
7:59shut me up physically on the steps of
8:02the capitol on may 3rd 1972 a dozen
8:05cubans up from miami with orders quote
8:08to incapacitate ellsberg totally now
8:11this was an all-out campaign and i want
8:13listeners to understand that it was all
8:15documented all proven in a court of law
8:18that that these orders were coming
8:20directly from the highest office in the
8:22nation and in those days all these
8:24things were clearly unmistakably
8:27criminal now
8:29you were talking about you told me
8:30earlier you want to talk about contrast
8:32between that day and this a very unhappy
8:34uh change
8:36is that virtually all of those things
8:37have become legalized by the by the
8:39congress or at least by their failure to
8:42object for example to president obama's
8:44announcement that her acknowledgement
8:47that he picks
8:48people even american citizens
8:51for death by drone or otherwise by
8:54special forces
8:55uh a kill list sort of which corresponds
8:59to this incapacitate ellsberg totally
9:01well in those days
9:02that confronted nixon with possible
9:05impeachment and he had to resign
9:07these days it
9:09after 9 11 it evokes no big great
9:12resistance but of course the un the
9:14warrantless wire
9:16uh the warrantless wiretapping uh has
9:18now been legalized by congress although
9:20strictly speaking they really can't
9:23overturn the fourth amendment
9:24constitutionally just by majority votes
9:27so i would say it still remains
9:28unconstitutional and that has not been
9:31uh judged by the supreme court mm-hmm mr
9:36we're going to have to take our first
9:37commercial break but when we come back
9:39i'd like to continue to talk about this
9:41because clearly after the pentagon
9:44papers we saw progress in government
9:46transparency the freedom of information
9:48act the fisa court and many of the these
9:51things as you point out were reversed
9:53after 9 11 so we'll come back and pick
9:55the story up right there you're
9:57listening to the costa report
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14:10welcome back to the costa report i'm
14:12rebecca costa and my guest today is
14:14daniel ellsberg and before the break you
14:17were making the point that many of the
14:19changes which
14:22caused the charges against you to be
14:24dropped such as warrantless wiretapping
14:26and searches physical threats and so on
14:28have become legal owing to the
14:30government's response following 9 11.
14:33and i believe you've even gone so far as
14:35to say that the obama administration
14:38would likely seek a life sentence if
14:39your case happened today
14:42i
14:43that is i'm sure the case if i uh if i
14:46was revealing
14:47something equivalent to the pentagon
14:48papers today i have no doubt that i
14:51would be facing the same fate as chelsea
14:53manning
14:54or uh the exiled
14:56in effect
14:58and snowden right now that they would be
15:01seeking a life sentence
15:04i i think it's fair to say that when it
15:06comes to snowden manning even julian
15:09assange
15:10the public has an impression that they
15:12were reckless and that it was that
15:14carelessness that uh posed a threat but
15:16in truth we now know that these
15:18individuals were extremely
15:20discriminating in what was released to
15:22the public and because they had access
15:23to many more highly classified documents
15:26that they chose not to release so so
15:28help us understand exactly what danger
15:31has been traced to the documents that
15:33were released
15:34of course at the beginning when the
15:36release occurred high intelligence
15:38officials all
15:40unanimously more or less said these
15:42people will have blood on their hands
15:44there will be lives lost
15:46many lives lost perhaps and terrible
15:49damage to our intelligence operations
15:51actually
15:52it's four years now since chelsea
15:54manning revealed hundreds of thousands
15:57of cables and documents something i
15:59couldn't do at that time in the
16:01pre-digital age
16:02but uh
16:04not one instance of actual harm to a
16:07person uh has been brought forth and
16:09that uh includes during her trial and
16:13including secret sessions during the
16:15trial and they they looked at classified
16:17information and they were not able to
16:19bring up one single instance actually of
16:21actual harm to anyone in contrast to
16:23what they predicted the same true with
16:26snowden in effect
16:27and of course the same charges were made
16:29against me
16:30uh 40 years ago now 40 years you know
16:33after years had gone by i think people
16:35came to appreciate
16:36there had been no harm actually in my
16:38revealing the thousands of pages of top
16:41secret documents and in this case
16:43in snowden's case now it's been more
16:45than a year and again no actual instance
16:48has come up even though they uh they
16:50talk about it in general
16:52that was harmful
16:54now manning was sentenced to 35 years in
16:56military prison as far as we know edward
16:59snowden is stuck in russia since his
17:01last petition for asylum in europe was
17:03rejected uh julian assange has been
17:06holed up in the ecuadorian embassy in
17:08london since uh june of 2012 and he's
17:11now reporting that his health is
17:12deteriorating you have made the point
17:15that if more whistleblowers came forward
17:18the government could not persecute the
17:20handful in the way that they do and that
17:23of course that makes perfect sense but
17:24given what's happening to these three
17:26examples can you blame others for not
17:29rushing forward
17:30no
17:31the government of course wants to make a
17:33very sharp example of uh any one example
17:36of this lest there be two and if there
17:38were two uh unless there'd be three and
17:41if people start doing it they they
17:43rightly fear i think that a lot of
17:45people would access the information that
17:47has been wrongfully withheld of which
17:49there's always a great deal in any
17:52government not just ours
17:54that they'll start to act on their
17:55conscience rather than their career
17:58and inform the public so they want to
18:00they want to uh tamp that down hard as
18:03in my case which i say was the first uh
18:07attempt to criminalize these leaks and
18:10it's easy to see why they did it in my
18:12case
18:13i copied 7 000 pages of which i gave 4
18:17000 to the newspapers there were a
18:19number of items that dealt with
18:20negotiations and i didn't want to
18:23have the effect or be accused of having
18:25the effect of stopping negotiations i
18:27wanted to help end the war not to
18:30not to stop negotiations so i withheld
18:33those and gave those only to the senate
18:35and uh
18:37foreign relations
18:38committee and
18:40i as you mentioned earlier correctly
18:42that
18:43both snowden and uh manning
18:46did
18:47in fact give only material that they
18:49felt personally was not would not be
18:51harmful and so it has proved although of
18:54course they could have made a mistake i
18:56would not have been astonished if their
18:58their judgment or for that matter my
19:00judgment had proven wrong but uh in this
19:03case it's it's been upheld but the point
19:05is that they didn't release everything
19:07they had in fact they had a lot of very
19:09harmful information and they and they
19:11chose not to do it because it it
19:13potentially could have caused um uh
19:16death uh and other kinds of damages so
19:18they were very discriminating i think
19:20that's something that's lost in the
19:22media's reporting of what well they've
19:24almost never reported that that each of
19:26them had access this is especially true
19:28where the the gap in
19:30public impression is especially true
19:32with with manning because they have the
19:34impression that this young
19:37person without without experience had
19:40released everything he could get his
19:42hands on he and yes that he was reckless
19:45and yeah that he was reckless and
19:46indiscriminate and in fact uh he chose
19:49to put out only material that was at a
19:51secret level
19:52or
19:53not limited distribution
19:55this is material by the way when i was
19:57in the pentagon that i never felt i had
19:59time to look at it was too low level
20:01and i'm surprised in a way at how much
20:04interesting information about u.s crimes
20:07really of turning people over to torture
20:09and so forth was classified only at the
20:11secret level apparently i had missed
20:13some significant material unless it's
20:16become so normal now to do that that
20:18they don't regard it as a big secret
20:20anymore but what manning had access to
20:23was
20:24not only top secret but a great deal of
20:26material it was higher than top secret
20:28in his work daily work and uh put out
20:31put out none of that
20:33so in fact
20:35as i say all the material i put out was
20:37top secret his was all secret or less or
20:39unclassified so the idea that he was
20:42indiscriminate is simply wrong and as i
20:44say his his judgment has been validated
20:47since that no significant harm would uh
20:50would occur with all due respect mr
20:52ellsberg i have to say that uh in
20:54looking at manning and receiving a
20:5635-year sentence
20:58and looking at edward snowden's plight
21:01and also julian assange uh it seems as
21:04though uh we have not treated these
21:07whistleblowers any differently than the
21:09persecution you experienced
21:12well certainly not uh not better
21:15but i think you're making the point that
21:17uh
21:18you raised earlier
21:20has the government succeeded in
21:22deterring the other whistleblowers we
21:24need well that remains to be seen
21:27uh after all it was 40 years between my
21:30case
21:31and another mass disclosure of that sort
21:35of by chelsea manning
21:37it was very dismaying to me i would have
21:39hoped i would have thought that
21:40something on the scale of the pentagon
21:42papers revealing the almost continuous
21:47misdoing
21:49wrongdoing or deceptive policy in one
21:52area or another i would think that a
21:55pentagon papers is really needed or
21:56deserved about once a year
21:59somewhere but 40 years went by but then
22:02uh
22:03after it was clear that that manning was
22:05being treated very harshly including 10
22:08and a half months in total isolation
22:11cell
22:12before public protest really got him out
22:14into a general population
22:17but
22:18despite that that didn't deter edward
22:20snowden three years later and he was he
22:24did learn from manning's case
22:26that a he could not get a fair trial in
22:29this country uh
22:31if he stayed in this country which is
22:32true
22:33go back into that and second he needed
22:35to be out of the country in order to
22:37to make the revelations well that's a
22:39good point what he had to do yeah that's
22:41a very good point and we're going to
22:42talk about that when we come back and
22:44also talk about the fact that the senate
22:46had a chance to extend
22:48the whistleblower protection
22:51to
22:52government employees and subcontractors
22:54and failed to do so in 2010
22:57so we'll be right back after these
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25:42thinning skin and degenerative disease
25:44symptoms of all kinds methylation
25:46defects can accelerate the aging process
25:48and healthy methylation keeps the fetus
25:50from developing birth defects
25:51methylation turns genes on and off and
25:53defective or insufficient methylation is
25:55involved in the initiation of genetic
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25:59ultimately lead to cancer mood and
26:01mental health are especially dependent
26:03on effective methylation in fact pretty
26:05much every single thing that happens in
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26:09wiggling your toes to beating your heart
26:10to keeping cells running efficiently
26:12depends on some level at least on
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27:14welcome back to the costa report i'm
27:15rebecca costa and if you're just joining
27:17us my guest today is daniel ellsberg and
27:20before the break you were making the
27:22point that edward snowden learned from
27:24the manning case and realized there was
27:27no opportunity for a fair trial in this
27:29country which then caused him to seek
27:31asylum
27:33when i say no opportunity let me be
27:35precise
27:36uh manning just like myself in my trial
27:4040 years earlier was not permitted under
27:43the espionage charges to argue uh either
27:46motive uh desire to benefit americans
27:50and save american lives and uh
27:52help end this war by uh revealing truth
27:56but no element uh no motive why did i
27:59copy the pentagon papers i was not
28:01allowed to answer that question nor was
28:03chelsea manning allowed to address that
28:05at all has there actually been any
28:07harmful effect have there been good
28:09effects which could be pointed to
28:10actually
28:12in both cases
28:13none of that is to be discussed meaning
28:15that uh
28:17when both
28:18secretary of state kerry and
28:20former
28:22secretary of state hillary clinton have
28:23both said that snowden should come back
28:25to this country to argue his case in
28:28court and to the public and neither of
28:31those is at all feasible whether they
28:33whether they realize that or not they
28:35would not be able to argue their case in
28:37court under these charges and nor in
28:40public
28:41chelsea manning hasn't been interviewed
28:42by a reporter in the four years since
28:45she was first arrested and uh as to say
28:48ten and a half months of those were in
28:49isolation i think that edward snowden
28:52would be in isolation from the moment he
28:54set foot in this country for the rest of
28:56his life really and no reporter would
28:58talk to him so well as you say the court
29:01yeah the court will not allow you to
29:04justify breaking the law and under these
29:07under these charges that's correct these
29:09charges
29:10yeah the the charges do not under these
29:13charges you are not permitted to explain
29:16why it was in the greater good of the
29:18american public uh and and so as you you
29:22call that motive but but clearly motive
29:25plays a huge role in why someone would
29:28put their entire life on the line to
29:30reveal these documents
29:32well obviously so and what we need is
29:37what harvard law professor yohi benkler
29:39has been arguing for
29:40is a public interest defense or as he
29:43calls it a public accountability defense
29:46which could be legislated by congress
29:48and should be and make it clear
29:51amend the espionage act actual itself to
29:53make it clear
29:54that you can
29:56argue such things in court that's the
29:58only route to a fair trial or the public
30:01understanding of what you've done well
30:02now let's talk about amendments i
30:04mentioned before the break that in 2010
30:07the senate had an opportunity to expand
30:09the protections for whistleblowers
30:12who work for the government by creating
30:14a a legal structured pathway for
30:17wrongdoing to be exposed and they failed
30:20to put it through based on the impact
30:22that they said that it would have on the
30:23intelligence community they claimed that
30:25they were worried it was going to open
30:26the door to more wikileaks like
30:29disclosure of classified materials then
30:31two years later in 2012 president obama
30:34issued presidential directive 19
30:37which did expand the protection of
30:40intelligence workers um so what do you
30:42think are we getting back on track is
30:44there any hope here uh not in that line
30:48the uh not from obama as of now and by
30:50the way i have to say
30:52i don't understand and i don't know
30:54anybody who did predict or really
30:56understand
30:57how it came about that president obama
30:59who spoke in his campaigns of the need
31:01for greater transparency and a promise
31:04of the most transparent government ever
31:06has in reality conducted
31:09the most secretive uh administration
31:12ever and that's against some stiff
31:14competition here why he has prosecuted
31:17under the espionage act nine uh leakers
31:20nine people who disclosed or held on
31:23unauthorized information
31:25compared to three
31:27under all previous presidents put
31:29together of which i was the first uh
31:32three times as many
31:34no one foresaw that and it's pretty hard
31:36to explain why he was doing that
31:39more than george w bush are there more
31:42are there more well
31:43are there more coming forward and that's
31:45why they're more being prosecuted that's
31:48that's certainly not the case and uh why
31:50it would be that uh he would he would
31:53probably use this act as if it were a
31:56british official secrets act uh he's
31:59done that more than any other president
32:00now and the only one who's really done
32:02it no other president has done that
32:03tried that more than once and he's i
32:06said is indicted nine cases under that
32:09so uh it's definitely not because there
32:11are more leaks
32:13than before
32:14so
32:15that's something of a mystery as i say
32:17now but i want to make it clear to
32:19listeners today that that in your view
32:21this isn't a partisan issue you're not
32:23you're not gunning for the obama
32:24administration you were an equal
32:26opportunity uh critic over what nixon
32:30was doing what the bush administration
32:32has done i mean
32:33this is not aimed
32:35yeah if we don't tell people that let me
32:36tell you the media so polarizes these
32:38days they jump on and say i can just
32:40turn the radio off this guy is you know
32:43a a spokesperson for the the radical uh
32:46right or the left and i get this all the
32:48time so really yeah yeah so i i need to
32:51explain that you you know your your
32:53issue is
32:54with government transparency and that is
32:57independent of any ideologies it's uh
33:00this is a first for me i have to say uh
33:03and i've been interviewed here for over
33:0540 years and it's the first time that
33:07someone has had to explain that i wasn't
33:09being critical as a republican
33:13the uh that's that's certainly the case
33:15what i with the pentagon papers which
33:17came out under nixon
33:18they mostly indicted the democrats you
33:20know kennedy and johnson before me and
33:23indeed uh former democratic vice
33:26president hubert humphrey said to the
33:27nixon white house
33:29before i was revealed as a source no
33:31good democrat could have put out these
33:33papers because they they incriminated
33:35the democrats so much so i learned for
33:37the first time that i guess i'm not a
33:39good democrat in that sense well when i
33:41criticize obama i'm doing so with
33:43somebody who supported his his
33:45presidency twice in both elections
33:47and you know i was always curious about
33:50why nixon reacted the way that he did
33:53when in fact the pentagon papers were
33:55far more critical of the johnson
33:57administration than anything else so i i
33:59i just didn't understand i didn't
34:01understand his
34:03response the your release of the papers
34:06was not aimed at the nixon
34:07administration
34:09well
34:11that's true but uh
34:13let me refer you back to what i said uh
34:15earlier which is unfamiliar to people
34:17and uh i think you hadn't drawn the
34:20implication of it
34:21when if you're quite right in saying
34:24that not only did it mainly uh
34:27incriminate the uh or make the democrats
34:30look bad
34:31nixon picked that up very quickly on the
34:33first day and said well this is mainly
34:35as kissinger said to him this mainly
34:37shows that it's a democratic war
34:40and uh
34:41you know it's good for him and he liked
34:43having the pentagon papers per se which
34:45ended in 1968
34:47he liked those put out in fact he put
34:49some out himself i leaked it himself to
34:52feed the fire
34:53but um what he did worry about
34:56was in fact that i had information that
34:58went beyond the pentagon papers
35:01as i and into his administration as i
35:04did but not unfortunately not what he
35:07most feared
35:08i didn't have but it was reasonable for
35:10him not paranoid really to fear that i
35:12had information that he was might making
35:14threats of escalation
35:16including threats of nuclear war against
35:19uh north vietnam that he didn't want the
35:21public to know about that they would
35:23have objected and blocked these uh these
35:26efforts
35:27so
35:28for that he had to shut me up uh and he
35:31didn't have a legal way to do that i was
35:32on trial but to uh threaten me with
35:36blackmail and so forth or to try to kill
35:38me or incapacitate me was in those days
35:41illegal for a president and should
35:44remain illegal i would say but uh it
35:47hasn't
35:48so he had to take steps which worked for
35:50criminal and which opened him right he
35:52was basically preempting you coming
35:55forward with anything that would yeah so
35:57that answers your question and you say
35:59why was he so concerned it was about uh
36:01about what he was doing and the fact
36:03that he would have leaks on his
36:05on his
36:07administration and by the way something
36:09that just came out yesterday struck me
36:12as i've always said uh are there things
36:14that should not be leaked or you know
36:16that are properly kept secret yes i've
36:18always said that and
36:20at the time for instance he was doing
36:22negotiations with china leading up to
36:25secret negotiations leading up to his
36:27public uh trip to china and felt he had
36:30to keep those secrets well i didn't leak
36:31those and i wouldn't i wouldn't have
36:33leaked those so i said i didn't put out
36:34stuff on negotiations yes well that gets
36:36back to the fact that most
36:37whistleblowers and and i think this is
36:39certainly true of those that are being
36:41persecuted today are are very
36:43discriminating and i object to the fact
36:46that they're portrayed as reckless and
36:48anti-patriotic in some way uh much of
36:50the information they release it really
36:52has not been tied to
36:54any direct threat to the united states
36:56all right we're going to take our final
36:57break but stay right where you are we're
36:59listening to the costa report no matter
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41:14welcome back to the costa report i'm
41:15rebecca costa and my guest today is
41:18daniel ellsberg now i want to make the
41:20point mr ellsberg that
41:22every person who works for the
41:24government shouldn't immediately run out
41:26and start copying classified documents
41:28that's not what you advocate
41:31so other than each
41:33individual's independent judgment
41:35we seem to need some kind of a filtering
41:37process so that classified documents
41:39that should not be classified or kept
41:42secret
41:43are allowed to come forward so if a
41:45government contractor or employee is
41:47aware of wrongdoing today what are their
41:49options
41:51well the
41:53in terms of classified information there
41:54are very few uh protections
41:57there are no protections let me put that
41:59more sharply
42:01against giving this information to the
42:03press in particular in theory
42:06there is a process
42:08and the president and as well as carrie
42:10uh
42:12secretary of state kerry and
42:14hillary clinton
42:15have a secretary of state former
42:17hillary clinton have both pointed to
42:20along with obama that snowden and others
42:22could have
42:24gone through a regular process if they
42:26felt there was wrongdoing as they did
42:29but again
42:30um in this case snowden
42:33along with his colleagues in nsa was
42:35well aware of what had happened to four
42:37of their former colleagues who did
42:39exactly what the president and kerry and
42:41clinton were calling for
42:43namely uh bill benny who these were all
42:46absolutely top people at the top level
42:48of nsa and expertise
42:50and they felt that the mass surveillance
42:53program was
42:55totally unconstitutional elderly and
42:57illegal
42:58under domestic law as well as a
43:00constitution and totally
43:02counterproductive and they were involved
43:05in trying to make
43:06more productive programs work so they
43:09went to the inspector general of the
43:12nsa and also the inspector general of
43:15the department of defense nsa is under
43:17the department of defense in both cases
43:19got essentially no response which is
43:22typical this then they even went further
43:24and went to a committee of congress and
43:26in classified basis revealed their
43:29concerns and again this was sat upon and
43:33essentially nothing happened except that
43:35they were suspected wrongly of being
43:39the source
43:40of the leaks to the new york times for
43:42which the times got the pulitzer prize
43:44later of uh revealing this warrantless
43:47surveillance solo that was still without
43:49documents uh at all and the people who
43:53did those leaks uh actually did have
43:56more effect in raising the issue and
43:57getting a debate about it
43:59than benny and the others but uh
44:03really then congress just proceeded to
44:05legalize it essentially as they say they
44:08can't make it constitutional but they
44:09can make a a bid towards saying we
44:12authorize this
44:13in 2006. it wasn't really till snowden
44:16put out the documents that there have
44:18now been a number of proposals in
44:20congress for reigning in this process
44:23but um what snowden realized was that
44:26the earlier process no documents and
44:28going not outside the
44:31classified versions the
44:33congress and the igs was it possible to
44:36have any effect so
44:38i think that's going to remain actually
44:41uh it would be better to have make it
44:44clear that there should be a public
44:46accountability defense if you are
44:48charged but even when it comes to being
44:50charged the truth is that the government
44:52keeps secrets primarily not by the
44:54threat of prosecution after all when i
44:57say that there have been nine under
44:58obama how many leaks have there actually
45:01been well more or less authorized leaks
45:03as the ci did about the torture program
45:06we now know uh was putting out
45:09classified information in order to
45:10support the program none of those are
45:12authorized and you uh our
45:16prosecutor i meant to say they're
45:17authorized in effect at a high level
45:20as to the producers of zero dark thirty
45:23they were given a lot of classified
45:25information to support the program and a
45:27falsely claim according to the senate
45:30that their torture had been critical
45:33in getting osama bin laden the senate
45:36report says that was simply untrue
45:39what we do need is
45:42people
45:43recognizing that
45:45there can be enormous
45:48good
45:49benefit to the public and averting great
45:51dangers wrongful wars and
45:53unconstitutional actions
45:56that an individual can
45:58achieve by revealing the truth although
46:01that will almost surely have very
46:04harmful personal consequences or at
46:06least the great risk of them um
46:09and uh there are times when it's worth
46:12considering very high personal risk
46:15quite apart from prosecution
46:17uh
46:18the the risks that keep most secrets
46:21however wrongful from being revealed are
46:23risks of losing your clearance your job
46:26your career uh very often your marriage
46:30as a result of these uh these pressures
46:32whistleblowers
46:33commonly uh
46:36uh have the uh well let's let's just you
46:38know let's
46:40punctuate that by saying their lives are
46:42ruined
46:44well they're
46:45or greatly changed uh yeah
46:48i mean i you know no no one wishes to
46:50have to flee their country no one wishes
46:52to have to spend two years in a um
46:55ecuadorian uh ambassador uh emba uh
46:58embassy compound i mean people don't
47:01these this is not the life that you
47:03think of when you think about a joyous
47:04happy peaceful life and yet i'm sure i
47:08know having talked to these people uh i
47:10just saw snowden in russia as a matter
47:12of fact they would they would do it all
47:14again they would do it again that's
47:16right and and we're not uh this is not
47:19like cheney i would torture people again
47:22in a minute if i had the opportunity
47:24this is i would tell the truth again i
47:26would pay these personal costs which of
47:28course cheney has not been confronted
47:29with for his admitted
47:32illegal acts the acts he's admitted
47:34doing or are criminal but uh he he
47:36suffers no real risk from them they knew
47:39they were suffering a risk and the truth
47:40is
47:41uh when there's a war's worth of lives
47:44at stake
47:45it can be worth uh facing that kind of
47:48risk i by the way did not and did not
47:51have my life ruined i'm the exception it
47:53so happens yes you are and and that
47:55gives me great pleasure to have you on
47:57the program because i think if we have
47:59at least one exception maybe just maybe
48:03some whistle other whistleblowers will
48:05see that as a sign of hope and and
48:08perhaps come forward unfortunately mr
48:10ellsberg that is all the time that we
48:12have left today but before we close the
48:14program i do want to take a a moment to
48:17thank you for making time to be with us
48:19today and for your service to our
48:21country and your patriotism thank you mr
48:23ellsberg thank you very much thank you
48:26if your station is leaving us after the
48:28first hour and you have a question or a
48:29comment to make about our interview with
48:31daniel ellsberg today you can email me
48:33at rebeccacosta.com or drop me a note on
48:35facebook twitter linkedin there's no
48:38question that whistleblowers have played
48:40an important role in our nation's
48:41history and in many ways
48:43they're what stands between government
48:45wrongdoing and the public's
48:47responsibility
48:48to make the government accountable for
48:50that wrongdoing but but take a look at
48:52the price a person must pay
48:55to come forward every whistleblower
48:57risks charges of espionage treason um
49:00the it's it's a it's a rough road uh it
49:04seems to me we need a better way i know
49:07you have some thoughts about this so
49:08take a moment to send me your comments
49:10by going to our webpage at
49:12rebeccacosta.com that's myname.com
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49:17at the top of the home page and it'll
49:18take you right over to a page where you
49:20can leave your remarks and i i would
49:22love to hear from you and if you missed
49:24the full interview with daniel ellsberg
49:25or any of our other guests remember you
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51:02don't miss john ross next week right
51:04here on the only weekly news program
51:06that puts policy ahead of politics once
51:10again i want to thank our guest today
51:12daniel ellsberg for a remarkable uh um
51:16discussion on what this country needs to
51:19do to protect our nation's
51:21whistleblowers
51:22i i hope you enjoyed the discussion as
51:24much as i did and uh and what a
51:27remarkable individual ellsberg has been
51:29through the years he is an important
51:31part of our of our history now stay
51:33tuned for a second hour of straight talk
51:35radio you're listening to the costa
51:37report
51:50you

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