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Cruel Justice Episode 41: Sabrina Butler-Smith and Nathalie Greenfield — Transcript

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0:01okay
0:02hi everyone um
0:06okay sam
0:07live stream yes we're live stream
0:10uh so hi everyone welcome to the 41st
0:15uh episode of crude justice
0:18uh my name is herman lindsey i'm
0:19florida's death for exoneree and
0:22there was secretary of water witness to
0:24innocent for those that don't know what
0:25witness innocence we are an organization
0:28mainly built of death roy's honorees
0:31around the united states where our
0:34mission is to go around and abolish the
0:36death penalty
0:37our show is to go around and educate
0:40people of this miscarriage that involved
0:44the um death penalty not only just the
0:47role for convictions but main issues
0:50that is so damaging that shows that we
0:52shouldn't have a deal here in the united
0:55states you know and one of the hopes is
0:57not only that we educate people that are
1:01potential jurors to understand that um
1:06their decisions when dealing with a
1:07definitive case or any case is very very
1:11vital that they pay attention to the
1:13evidence and question what they feel
1:15they need the question
1:17also we hope to reach uh legislators and
1:21all other people that use this case this
1:24show to uh get them to call us upon
1:28action
1:29you know call upon action to help us uh
1:32get rid of this mechanism or call the
1:35death penalty
1:36today
1:37our subject is which
1:40a couple of weeks back i had a
1:43show and it was like the most amazing
1:46show where
1:47i
1:48learned about the problems that women on
1:52death row have you know i never
1:55you know me going through trial
1:57and me going through uh death row and
2:00being exonerated you know i had a tunnel
2:03vision of
2:04how it was for me and i
2:07i suspected it was like that with
2:08everyone but then when i find out how
2:12the women are treated so much
2:15differently
2:16and it's like back in in the early
2:20early early years of society being
2:23brought together i mean in the 1800s way
2:26back you know
2:28civilization how
2:30uh
2:31people perceive women to be a certain
2:33way
2:34you know changes have came about you
2:36know before it was like a woman had to
2:39always wear dress you know and you know
2:42i didn't think that america had those
2:45type of codes
2:46i know when you go across seas you know
2:50the muslim witness have to have certain
2:52um
2:54coverage
2:55but i didn't know america had that and
2:58when i found that
3:00those type of things play a part
3:03in the trials over here with women where
3:06they are perceived to have to be a
3:08certain way in society
3:10and they scrutinize them and it also
3:13blinds the jury to see
3:16the evidence that's against them or to
3:18to to evaluate the case in a fair way
3:21because they jump to a prejudice mark
3:24because
3:25she
3:26uh
3:27wore excuse my language thongs as
3:29underwears you know that she is not
3:32appropriate woman and you know
3:36me personally i know i would love to see
3:39my wife and don't sometimes you know and
3:42that's appropriate she's trying to be
3:44sexy for her husband or whatever but to
3:47judge a woman by the underworld
3:50or judge the woman to say she's an unfit
3:53mother or this and that and don't even
3:56look at the evidence and here today we
3:58have sabrina butler who was the first
4:00lady and this is a
4:03a thing about sabrina case
4:06they looked at
4:07to me from reading her case they looked
4:09at she looked that looked at her that
4:11she was an unfit mother too they didn't
4:13pay attention to the evidence where
4:16uh the evidence was being
4:18uh manipulated
4:20to to say that she committed the crime
4:22she committed and
4:24you know
4:25it's just
4:27sad to see
4:28that
4:29we are people of society
4:32actually think like that then we have uh
4:35miss natalie greenfield who was uh from
4:38the cornell center of the deaf community
4:40worldwide you know she's
4:42kind of endless because she deal with
4:44these uh cases of of so many different
4:47cases with with women on death row and
4:51some of the things that she sees man is
4:54like
4:56it's like
4:57women are being
5:00uh
5:02how can i say very it's they're being
5:04very prejudiced against women and
5:06classifying them
5:08just because some of the things that
5:11they be has been a natural moment
5:14and i didn't think we had that here in
5:16the united states so we had to put this
5:18show together so first i'm gonna let uh
5:21sabrina introduce herself and tell you a
5:23little bit about her
5:29um yes thank you herman my name is
5:31sabrina bulla smith and i'm the first
5:33woman to be exonerated in the united
5:35states from death row
5:37my case was in mississippi
5:39i was
5:40convicted and sentenced to death march
5:4313 1990 my death date was july the
5:46second
5:47i spent six and a half years all
5:49together
5:50two and a half years on death row i was
5:53exonerated in 95
5:56and i currently now work with witness to
5:58innocence um death row exonerees
6:00speaking around the world against the
6:02death penalty and things that we could
6:03change as far as the justice system is
6:06concerned
6:12i just have one question for you sabrina
6:15what was the cause of your exoneration
6:18the cause of my exoneration was that my
6:20son i didn't kill my child he had heart
6:23lung kidney problems and chronic bowel
6:25syndrome and it was already there they
6:28knew my son was sick they just held the
6:30evidence in order you know to get a
6:32conviction
6:34and
6:36one of the things was the
6:37medical examiner reports was wrong right
6:41yes
6:42okay so
6:43despite that
6:45that we had an expert speaking do you
6:48believe because you was a woman and that
6:51it was your child involved do you
6:53believe that played a big part of being
6:55prejudiced against
6:57and and could affect the the verdict of
7:00the jury i do think so because they
7:03called me a monster an unfit mother
7:05uh i was living in poor situations and
7:08they knew that this kind of stuff would
7:10happen
7:11um and just
7:12all kind of labels was put you know on
7:14upon me without really just looking at
7:16the evidence the lawyers just didn't do
7:18their jobs as as to
7:20you know what happened to my son and the
7:23district attorney just was able to get
7:25away with with everything
7:29so my next guest you know she's looking
7:31very beautiful with her curly hair also
7:34i i i feel kind of bad but women got
7:37curly hair and i feel like you know
7:40but uh they both are beautiful
7:43my next guest is natalie greenfield can
7:46you tell the people uh
7:49a little bit about yourself and what you
7:51how you are involved in this with the
7:53women on delta
7:56thank you herman um and thanks for
7:58having me on your show tonight it's real
7:59privilege to be here with sabrina
8:02um i work at the cornell center on the
8:04death penalty worldwide
8:06and we focus on the cases of women we've
8:09um launched a big project that's really
8:12looking at women's cases because our
8:14research um
8:16and the the clients with whom we're
8:17working are really pointing to the fact
8:20that although women are minority on
8:22death row
8:23in the united states and around the
8:25world and there are actually very
8:28gendered reasons for which women are
8:29sentenced to death what we're seeing
8:32is that women are typically sentenced to
8:35death for being bad women so for being
8:38bad mothers i mean sabrina's told us
8:40about her case and and tragically that's
8:43not rare
8:44um and and we see juries
8:47fairly commonly sentencing women to
8:49death for
8:51for
8:53the death of their own children and um
8:55prosecutors bringing in evidence about
8:57how how these women are monsters and
9:00dreadful mothers because we have this
9:01this view of women in society that your
9:04number one role is to be a mother and to
9:06be a good mother so um
9:09a lot of the research we were doing was
9:12showing that women are centered for
9:13these genders gender reasons and that's
9:16led us to really try and pursue um what
9:18is going on here and and the center now
9:21represents
9:23and consults on a number of cases around
9:25the country and around the world um of
9:27women who are facing the death penalty
9:31so
9:32you know
9:34i'm not an attorney i do a lot of
9:36educational things you know like
9:38um and working towards mitigation
9:40litigation work um
9:43are women cases when dealing with such
9:48uh thoughts and um
9:52i mean it doesn't quite fit up under
9:54prosecuted misconduct
9:56uh presenting this stuff because
9:59it's up to the jury to decide
10:01but then here you know most people in
10:04society
10:05um
10:06you know
10:08a man probably
10:09on the jury might don't
10:12don't have so much prejudice against um
10:16the type of underwear a dress code
10:19but a woman name
10:21so
10:22how difficult or challenged it is to get
10:26over this hurdle of such prejudice in
10:29these cases
10:31it's a really good question and i think
10:33something that really compounds how
10:35difficult it is and everything you've
10:37just been saying herman is is the media
10:40coverage i mean we could spend all night
10:41talking about media coverage of women's
10:43cases but um the me because women are
10:47less commonly um involved in homicide
10:50trials and facing the death penalty the
10:52media really tends to journalists can go
10:55all in on women and can really really
10:57demonize women we've had clients talk to
11:00us about how um they were
11:03slandered all over the press for
11:06what they were accused of doing one of
11:08our clients in oklahoma her case
11:11got more coverage in the press all about
11:14her
11:15her mothering and what she was wearing
11:17and her supposed boyfriends and she got
11:19more coverage than the oklahoma city
11:20bombings which is is
11:23really quite scandalous and so
11:25jurors are coming into these cases with
11:29um this background of media coverage
11:31that they've been exposed to and then
11:33there's a common narrative that we're
11:34that's coming through from the
11:35prosecution and all of it really
11:38compounds to draw on these stereotypes
11:40and so
11:41really ask
11:42you know ask the question are these
11:44women being sentenced because they're
11:46stereotypically bad women
11:49um and is that the standard we really
11:51want to be applying here in this
11:53incredibly unjust system and then you
11:56add to that the fact that a lot of women
11:58and
12:00on death row you know overwhelmingly
12:02have experienced a lot of trauma in
12:03their lives and so that's you know
12:06either not brought in at all
12:08or um it might affect how they're
12:10presenting and so all of this comes
12:13together to add to the story of how this
12:16woman is a bad woman is a transgressive
12:18woman
12:19and um
12:20and jurors are a convicting base and
12:22sentencing based on this information
12:27i want to touch on that
12:29trauma stuff because i believe
12:31uh that plays a big part but i want to
12:34go to sabrina for a second um
12:38you spoke about how they
12:41try to dehumanize women during the
12:45process of trial
12:46sabrina
12:48if i may ask you
12:51how did that apply to you
12:54during the course of going to trial
12:57well one thing in particular they look
12:59at how
13:00you cry if you're not crying enough if
13:03you're not looking a certain way then
13:05you must have did it if you know you
13:07know what i'm saying me going through
13:09trial i was only 17. so i really i just
13:12had a
13:13little stoic look on my face because i
13:14you know i didn't know what to ex
13:17oh i didn't know what i was going to
13:19what was going to happen to me i didn't
13:21really understand so therefore i just
13:23you know i was scared inside but i tried
13:26to hold up and show that hey i'm not
13:28scared that's what most of us do and so
13:31they took that as though you know she
13:32looked this kind of way and she didn't
13:34have this
13:35she was angry and she was you know what
13:38i'm saying that and they use a lot of
13:40that in in media coverage against me and
13:42that's why they made me like a monster
13:44talk to you know talked about me
13:46as if i was a you know didn't care about
13:48my children and none of that wasn't a
13:51good mom none of that because of the way
13:52i look
13:55what's your treatment
13:57towards you would you say the treatment
13:59towards you going through this process
14:01of being incarcerated on death row and
14:04uh you know going back and forth to
14:07trial do you feel that if that was uh
14:10you was treated differently than what
14:11they would do with a man
14:13i think so because like is as far as
14:16going to jail and stuff like that
14:18personal hygiene they didn't care about
14:20that you were on your own trying to get
14:22personal things from the the jailers or
14:25anybody like that you know like as far
14:27as sanitary napkins things women need
14:30when incarcerated we suffer more so than
14:33i think i mean i'm not saying men don't
14:36suffer but i think it's harder for women
14:37because a lot of us come to prison with
14:40our you know have children
14:42those children are just out there you
14:44got to figure out where they're going
14:45who's going to keep them you know you go
14:47through a lot so that's added trauma as
14:50as a compare you know as uh it's added
14:53trauma and plus you're in incarcerated
14:56so
14:57i think it's much more harder for us and
14:59then we're
15:00i think we're treated as second-class
15:02citizens i don't think they look at us
15:04because the prison that i was in
15:06they kind of let the guys took over and
15:08they just put us in buildings that was
15:11for the females but they took the
15:12females out and put them in open
15:14and put us in smaller cramped areas that
15:16were worse off so yeah we were treated a
15:19lot different and as far as uh people
15:22the way they were talking to me and all
15:24that yeah i was a baby killer they
15:26called me child killer baby killer all
15:28kind of stuff you know i heard it all
15:31and i mean that's just that was
15:32humiliating and sad at the same time
15:34because i lost my son and nobody cared
15:37you know they you know i'm just this
15:39guilty person so
15:41that's the way it was you know until i
15:43proved my innocence
15:45which for all that's worth but i'm just
15:47saying that's another chapter but yeah
15:50and from my opinion you know it's just
15:53my opinion uh from listening to you
15:56uh you know i know
15:58as a man going through trials and things
16:00like that georgia guards are more afraid
16:03of us and then they're afraid of the man
16:06because the crime that they're arrested
16:08for and they feel like the person don't
16:10have nothing to lose and you know do you
16:12want to take on it's like an
16:13intimidation thing
16:15and then you know some
16:17uh
16:18do it but they do it when you they lock
16:20make sure they lock the doors before
16:22they uh scrutinize you or try to
16:24dehumanize you
16:26uh so i can i can kind of relate and
16:29understand what you're saying about
16:31how
16:32they
16:33the the the guards treat you because you
16:36know they can't they don't just go up in
16:38the man face majority time and talk
16:41trash they wait before they lock behind
16:44the bars as for a woman they feel like
16:47you know you you you're weaker or
16:49because you're crying or you know it's
16:52bothering you that you know they can
16:55uh what they call boo you up more
16:58you know and i can sense that but i want
17:00to go back to you natalie uh
17:03you know one of the things like i said i
17:05wanted to touch on this trauma
17:08you know is is
17:10is like for instance uh
17:13sabrina for instance
17:16she had
17:17trauma just by
17:19losing her child
17:21and
17:23they didn't care about that because they
17:24felt like she was the one who committed
17:26it so they hardly trump they pounded the
17:29trump pounded the order then you have
17:32other cases such as and i always go to
17:36this case because when i this is what
17:38sparked me on this women thing is that
17:40lisa montgomery case who was executed
17:44and
17:44how she was actually
17:48went to the police a couple of times
17:50but about the abuse that she was going
17:53through and about the raping she was uh
17:56going through and
17:58you know
17:59and every time she most time she went to
18:01the police they took a rap back to the
18:03same environment where to the same
18:05person that was accused of wanting but
18:08society is not looking at that mr
18:11psychic not looking at the trauma that
18:14pushes a person that pushes them
18:16slamming slamming a person to the fact
18:19that
18:20they they are so traumatized and
18:23sometimes they're not i know for me i
18:26suffer uh i don't know what the the the
18:30diagnosable cause of it but sometimes in
18:33life i'll be feeling so long to operate
18:36normally
18:37but
18:38because of the trauma of what i've been
18:40through i i
18:43you know i'm not grasping and everything
18:45in
18:46on one so i can imagine
18:48how the trauma of someone who's going
18:51through consonant abuse and counsel
18:54uh consistent uh uh uh
18:57raping and and stuff like that they'll
18:59go to help then this is like they have
19:02nowhere to turn and a lot of these
19:04women's that's on death row
19:07suffer dramatically
19:09with trauma before they committed these
19:11crimes
19:12can you elaborate a little bit about
19:15that trouble and
19:19receive a trial
19:22it's so important herman um what you're
19:24saying there it's
19:27women who are um serving extreme
19:30sentences death sentences life sentences
19:34um
19:35overwhelmingly have experienced
19:38gender-based violence in their life that
19:40is um perhaps domestic violence sexual
19:43abuse
19:44physical abuse abuse when they were
19:46children
19:48and
19:48um i'm glad you mentioned lisa
19:50montgomery's case because it is a very
19:53clear example of how
19:56um
19:57abuse at the hands usually of men can
20:00shape
20:01a woman's life and almost become a
20:03pipeline to the point where she
20:06might commit an offense i know you
20:08primarily work with and people who are
20:10innocent at winners to innocence um and
20:14a lot of our clients are not actually
20:16um
20:17innocent in in the sense that you know
20:20they they might have some involvement in
20:22an offense but this
20:24what
20:25the system completely neglects to
20:28account for
20:29is the state's own complicity
20:32in how someone might get to the point
20:34where where they um are involved in a
20:36crime
20:37because as you said you know if someone
20:40is experiencing abuse and has no
20:42protection from the state at all and
20:44turns to whether it's law enforcement
20:46officers teachers parents anybody for
20:49help and doesn't receive that
20:52that has a psychological impact on a
20:55person and that can really affect how
20:57someone behaves and how they respond to
21:00others around them
21:02some a case that really comes to mind is
21:04that of erica shepard erica is um on
21:07death row in texas at the moment and she
21:10repeatedly turned to people for help so
21:13a very very traumatic childhood and
21:15adolescence
21:17and she
21:18went to um
21:20two different shelters she ran away from
21:22her multiple times and went to a
21:23homeless shelter once and was turned
21:25right back to her home where she was
21:27suffering physical abuse later in her
21:29life she went to a women's shelter
21:31because she was suffering domestic
21:33violence and was kicked out of that
21:35shelter
21:36she um was in hospital for for
21:39pregnancies and also for trauma related
21:41to
21:42injuries that her um her husband was
21:45inflicting on her and all of the time
21:47the state
21:48actors were just turning her back into
21:51an abusive situation
21:53and and we've really got to ask
21:54ourselves you know
21:56at what point is
21:58are we saying that
22:00you know where should the state be
22:01stepping in here where women
22:03have a human right to be free from
22:05violence and are in need of protection
22:08and um where people are repeatedly being
22:11denied that right at what point uh
22:14is society complicit in actions that may
22:17then later result
22:19speaking of erica i just um if you don't
22:21mind want to read a quote from her she
22:24wrote to us recently and i think she
22:26really encapsulates this point that that
22:29you've been making her and about how um
22:32people seek help and are continually
22:34turned away so these are erica's own
22:36words she says
22:37using capital punishment our
22:39incarceration as the sole response to
22:41violence fails to achieve justice
22:43because you're simply sending people
22:45especially black and brown people into a
22:47system that has already failed them
22:50and i think what she's saying there is
22:52really powerful
22:54and the thing about it is that uh
22:59who's the actually at fault
23:02you know i understand the person
23:04that commits the crime is actually um uh
23:09guilty for most are guilty for if you're
23:12talking about the ones that are guilty
23:13right here
23:14talking about the ones that gives you
23:15right
23:16the ones that are guilty you know they
23:19they do commit the crime okay we get
23:21this they are guilty
23:23of that
23:24but
23:25as a person that worked with mitigations
23:28and litigation and finding mitigation
23:31reasons to to say no don't give this
23:35person death you know
23:37these
23:40these things that that actually we
23:43obtain
23:44where
23:45we have so much trouble
23:47from abuse
23:48and sometimes they start from childhood
23:51in the home you know um people been
23:53raped about ever men been raped you know
23:56we're not just talking about women here
23:58we talk about men being brave and we
24:01it's so much stuff that
24:03people been bullied so much
24:06until this very things that society is
24:10it
24:11says they're stepping up for
24:12we would not have bullying in school
24:15a person that's raping we don't tolerate
24:17this but then when we get into
24:20the penalty phase where we're asking
24:23for society to to think about the trauma
24:27what this person went through
24:29why this person don't deserve death it's
24:32like it's totally blind to it because of
24:36the crime they actually happen
24:38and everybody know is for instance if
24:41you take a woman that is is working
24:45right i hate to put it this way but
24:48a woman that is working
24:51she has four young kids
24:54she's trying to do work and they're
24:55driving her crazy driving the crazy
24:57at some point she's gonna get up from my
25:00work and say and put a foot down and say
25:03hey
25:04y'all sit down i'm trying to do mommy's
25:06trying to do work
25:08you know and try to put him in the bed
25:10or whatever and go back to hard work
25:13and i'm just using that as a point as
25:16the this the trauma
25:18keep coming on you baby and to a point
25:21where
25:22you you you you pushed
25:24you pushed
25:26so she had pushed herself from the hard
25:28work to settle the kids you know and
25:31sometimes it doesn't be so easy in that
25:34way as you know you could talk so calm
25:38sometimes it'd be pushed in a way where
25:40it consists of abuse
25:43applied abuse to someone else and it's
25:46not right but that's
25:48that's the it's like what they say
25:51pressure bust a pipe
25:53and that's what trauma does is just
25:55pushes pushes pushes pushes a person
25:58over
25:59and
26:00you know
26:02my thing about this is natalie is
26:07what
26:08message would you tell society
26:12dealing with
26:13the cases
26:14and
26:16mitigations reason we don't want to say
26:19society failure
26:21because
26:22somewhere in society they might have
26:24would have got help from somebody who
26:26really cares
26:28but majority government programs or
26:30majority of these other uh
26:33people that we run to
26:36they they just give money and not really
26:38care
26:39i mean women are running from domestic
26:41violence all the time
26:43well if you had a
26:45uh
26:47the audience as the jury on a case right
26:50now
26:52what would you
26:53tell them
26:55to get them to understand that this
26:56trouble is really serious and they need
26:59to be taken into consideration
27:03yeah absolutely i think um something
27:06that we we really need to ask is
27:09is
27:10the castle system really the right place
27:13for somebody who is traumatized you're
27:15speaking a lot about domestic violence
27:17for him and and the effects that that
27:19can have you know people can could
27:21develop post-traumatic stress disorder
27:23people can develop all kinds of mental
27:25illnesses from repeated traumatic
27:27experiences
27:29and is the best place for somebody
27:32really is is the best we can do a
27:34society to send somebody to
27:37a system that is incredibly cruel and
27:39dehumanizing and is not going to benefit
27:42anybody sabrina mentioned um how you
27:45know with her children it was traumatic
27:47because she had to raise child care you
27:49know we're taking somebody away from
27:50potentially their family and their
27:52children and not giving them the help
27:54that they need
27:56when really society has failed this
27:58person and has failed to step up before
28:01to provide that person with with the
28:03protection that they would need so
28:06um
28:07you know we
28:08it's
28:09really
28:10tough to try and change mentalities um
28:13especially when you know to back to
28:15something we've seen earlier some of the
28:16stereotypes about women are so deeply
28:18rooted
28:19especially with regard to
28:21to motherhood and being chaste and those
28:24kind of things
28:25but we've got to really keep pushing at
28:26it and i really do believe that we can
28:28do so much better for people who are in
28:31abusive situations than
28:34sending them off to death row or to a
28:37prison to serve a life sentence it's
28:39it's
28:40so unacceptable and
28:43compound trauma
28:45and it was very interesting to hear
28:47sabrina talking earlier about her
28:48experiences within
28:50the prison system it would be great to
28:52hear more i think but um it resonated a
28:54lot with some of what our clients have
28:56told us about the conditions that they
28:58have
28:58in prisons which also compound trauma
29:02people are facing sexual harassment from
29:04from prison guards for example prisons
29:06are entirely ill-equipped to serve
29:08women's needs the prison system
29:10was designed by men with men in mind
29:14and so you know we've got um
29:16women in in texan prisons that are
29:19incredibly hot who are going through
29:20menopause who you know
29:22that's such a difficult situation
29:25that um
29:27that people who menstruate have to face
29:29um and and the sexual harassment people
29:32who are having to show their breasts to
29:34get a cup of water when it's a really
29:36hot day and it's um
29:38all of this comes together to to
29:41compound trauma and to do absolutely
29:44nothing to serve people's needs
29:47sabrina
29:48have you just sent a message to all the
29:51viewers and all the viewers are juries
29:55what would
29:56you
29:58ask them to consider a little bit more
30:01that they didn't consider in your tribe
30:04first of all women's rights i mean we've
30:06always had to fight to get what i point
30:08across it's not about being barefoot
30:11pregnant in the kitchen you know what
30:12i'm saying no rights at all
30:14god dog i mean i'm you know every every
30:17woman doesn't want to be pregnant i'm
30:19just here to tell you we got strong
30:21women independent women out here that
30:23have the right to do what they need to
30:25do at any point in time my daughter's
30:26one of them she doesn't want any kid
30:28so what i'm saying is
30:31look at me for the case and and
30:34that's what i would have wanted them to
30:35do look at me for the case and do the
30:37right thing don't just look at me and
30:39say oh i'm an unfit mother and all this
30:41kind of stuff because you got this over
30:43here
30:44do the invest you should have done the
30:46investigative work because i should not
30:48have went to prison at all
30:50if you would have done but they had
30:52their own way of doing things and they
30:54looked at me like i was a crack headed
30:56and i have never done drugs before in my
30:58life but
30:59this case i was a crackhead i was a a
31:02monster i was this i was that that was
31:05crazy i mean
31:07women have rights too yes we have uh hot
31:10flashes and all that and it is important
31:12hot flashes kill you
31:15if they are
31:16horrible and i mean you know in prison i
31:20i saw the male guards the canine unit
31:22they come down they beat up the women
31:25you should have women over women not men
31:28over women
31:30you know what i'm saying that because i
31:31think that
31:32you know women will appeal to other
31:34women as as opposed to it being a
31:37strictly male situation now i'm not
31:40bashing the mail so don't get on me
31:42don't come after me i'm just saying
31:46we we deserve rights too man we have
31:48rights too as women
31:50we really do and we shouldn't have to
31:52fight as hard as we are to to have a
31:54place in this world we shouldn't but we
31:57do and it's sad
31:59it's like beating your chest oh i'm the
32:01man oh
32:02women go sit down no that ain't the way
32:04it should be
32:05we got rice too
32:09i'm still i'm still a thousand spot uh
32:14well i mean a lot back in the day that's
32:16the way they thought i'm serious that's
32:18the way they thought
32:19we could not talk we couldn't say
32:21anything if the husband whatever he said
32:23that's what went i mean he could go out
32:25and find 50 women we had to stay at the
32:28house barefoot pregnant in the kitchen
32:30that just let you guys know how old i am
32:34we're not going to talk about age but
32:35yeah
32:36question what
32:38was your judge of male or female male
32:43it mostly was male all around me
32:45mostly was male 1 a lot of people
32:49and in mississippi you have a good old
32:51connection
32:53oh boy system in place yes in my trial
32:56that's what it was
32:59kangaroo
33:01kangaroo that's right
33:05well you know we coming close to the end
33:07i have a video i'm gonna uh play right
33:10quick uh
33:11if alison can go ahead and share the
33:13screen but hopefully the
33:16visual uh the audio part will work
33:24[Music]
33:29i'm here today because i believe that
33:32julius jones is innocent i believe it
33:34down to the core of my heart and i think
33:36it's important as a community that we
33:39come out and show up for him
33:43this is amazing and it's just amazing
33:46that everybody came together no matter
33:48what background just to do the right
33:50thing
33:51i have a son just a couple years younger
33:54than julius and if something like this
33:56ever happened to him
33:58i would hope and pray that other people
34:00would get involved to help
34:05and we believe that
34:08god is a god of love not hate god is a
34:10god of life not death and what it means
34:12to love god and love our neighbors is to
34:14advocate for their lives and not their
34:16execution
34:21[Music]
34:26okay melinda will you please call the
34:28vote
34:29kelly doyle
34:31as i stated last month i
34:33continue to believe that there is doubt
34:35in this case
34:36in which
34:38the ultimate punishment should not be
34:40utilized i'm yes for clemency
34:43and at this point i am convinced that
34:47he is deserving of that and my vote is
34:50yes for clemency
34:52for the reasons previously stated at the
34:54commutation hearing my vote is yes to
34:55recommend clemency
35:03so we need everyone
35:05to now
35:07turn attention to governor kevin stitt
35:10he is the one who has to make the fun
35:17did they freeze up
35:25allison i think it froze up
35:27the recommendation that the board has
35:29now given him twice
35:31take the recommendation of the oklahoma
35:33pardon a parole board
35:35the governor stood
35:37you know i just pray that he's on the
35:38right side of history
35:41there's a lot of eyes on this case and
35:43he has the opportunity to to give julius
35:45the second lease on life and so i pray
35:47that he does that
35:49please don't let oklahoma execute an
35:51innocent man named julius darius jones
35:54who is my brother
35:57[Music]
36:02you know
36:03i just want to say
36:07this this is
36:10two things for me
36:12you know i've
36:14it's a great progress here at julius
36:16jones quesos we're here with the
36:18citizens
36:19has been supporting uh
36:22julius jones case and we
36:25i was recently out of oklahoma um
36:29in the capital
36:30you know it was amazing because they
36:32capital have a whole whale rat on the
36:34capitol
36:35grounds
36:37so it was amazing experience
36:39but what i want to also take out of this
36:41is that here
36:44this is a prime example
36:46you know we talk about we want justice
36:49in our system
36:50you know and to get justice in our
36:53system
36:54we as society has to pull together and
36:57get on the same level
36:59we have to understand that trauma plays
37:02a big part
37:03of people that's committing crimes
37:06we have to understand that we need to
37:08stop these people from suffering
37:12during this time of trauma
37:14we have to sit help the women out there
37:17that is getting abused taken
37:20advantage of and let them know that it
37:23is people out there that care
37:26we have to let them know that we as
37:28society
37:30is there to help try to protect her
37:33so she can live her life without having
37:37fear
37:38where she can leave her life we're
37:41getting the re rehabilitation that she
37:43needs
37:44to overcome this trauma
37:47and stay in a productive life
37:50not having her feel
37:53you know
37:54there's nowhere to turn
37:57that she's in the land of free and all
37:59of
38:01all that matters is
38:03you know
38:05money
38:06and the reason i save money is because
38:09that's what pushes political
38:12um things that's what pushes our justice
38:14system
38:15they make a lot of money off our justice
38:17system
38:18and you know when we talk about domestic
38:21violence we talk about rape
38:24when we talk about the slandering
38:26of a woman
38:28during her trial
38:30where she should be able which she
38:33should be able to sit comfortably
38:34because she is innocent until proven
38:38guilty
38:41she is still innocent until proven
38:44guilty
38:45but from the day one of her arrests she
38:48has to take torture
38:50as if she's guilty off top
38:53where people pre-judging her
38:56by
38:57the crying
38:59by the things that
39:02people say about her
39:04and taking away her self-esteem to fight
39:07in the courtroom to be
39:11a productive
39:12person
39:14and i think that today's show
39:17is a show
39:18that symbolized that
39:21we
39:22fighting causes in the justice system
39:26but
39:27i've been here
39:29speaking around the world for 10 years
39:32about 10 years
39:34i've had shows i've been in front of
39:36legislators and everything
39:38and majority of the time when we
39:41talking about cases and how broken the
39:44justice system is we're talking about
39:47witnesses uh
39:49um
39:50false witnessing
39:52false confessions uh
39:54police harassment prosecutor conduct
39:58but we never talked about those that's
40:00in society that's in that system
40:03that's badgering
40:05and badgering these women
40:08while they're going to trial
40:10and that is an issue that is a real flaw
40:13in our justice system
40:16i'm not an attorney
40:17i'm a person that been in that system
40:20sabrina is a person that's been in that
40:23system natalie is a person that has to
40:26work around that system and try to help
40:29get the best results
40:31for those that have suffered
40:33that has suffered and no one came to the
40:36rescue but the minute they've done wrong
40:40here it is
40:41they're getting
40:43beamed and beaten and punished in all
40:45types of method
40:47mutually
40:48everything
40:52before i go natalie
40:55sabrina i'm gonna go to natalie first
40:58uh
41:00is there anything you would like to say
41:02before
41:03we um
41:04come to the end of this show
41:08i would like to thank everybody for
41:10listening because i think that's how we
41:12start to change minds is by engaging
41:14people in conversation
41:16um and anyone who's on social media or
41:18who have access to social media i would
41:20really encourage you to get involved and
41:23you know
41:24we just saw the video about um julius
41:26jones and all of our thoughts are within
41:28but there's some really great activism
41:30going on online and people are really
41:32trying to push the needle and move us
41:35towards a day where we no longer have
41:37this absolutely barbaric punishment in
41:39the united states
41:41so
41:42i'd encourage people to check that out
41:45i enjoyed doing my show and i
41:47need to get in contact with you to
41:50you know whatever i can assist with
41:53where what the centers consist with
41:56we will proudly support
42:00your calls
42:01and i'm sure we'll have uh another show
42:04of this because this is something i want
42:06to hamburger out just like they hammer
42:08the women i want to hammer this out
42:10so that it reaches many people as
42:12possible
42:14um
42:15you know a lot of people don't know what
42:17actually goes on in prison or what goes
42:19on through uh the trial process
42:23of dealing with a case
42:25they just
42:27look at what's on the news or what's on
42:29the television show and we need to let
42:31them know from people that actually been
42:34involved how it really is
42:37so sabrina before i leave would you like
42:40to say anything
42:42i just like to say uh piggyback off what
42:44ms natalie said um yes um
42:47whenever you can anywhere you can just
42:50join us i mean just look at what's going
42:51on in the justice system if any way you
42:54can speak out any any voice that you
42:56want to use any platform just you know
42:59speak out and women have rights like i
43:02said and i think that we need to look at
43:04these these cases and we also need to
43:06look at them at the system as a whole
43:09and try to make a change and that's
43:10basically what you know i'm here to
43:13do
43:14thank you for having me
43:16miss natalie
43:18if it was i know i said one question but
43:21um
43:22as i go to my thought process
43:25is it
43:26in what ways uh is there any way that
43:30people in society right now
43:33can help you in your organization
43:36who's fighting hard for these women
43:38um do you have life for instance you
43:40have a website you have information
43:43you can share
43:45can you
43:46tell us absolutely
43:48um if people want to go to our website
43:50is www.deathpenaltyworldwide
43:55all of our social media links are on
43:56there and if you're on instagram you can
43:59check out at her whole truth
44:02and where we're telling the stories of
44:05some of the women who are on the inside
44:07and trying to spread awareness about um
44:10about their lives and about the abuses
44:12that they've suffered and and the
44:14conditions in which they now are forced
44:16to live
44:17and so if people want to help educate
44:19themselves and the people around them
44:22then then check out our website and
44:23check out our social media and spread
44:25the word
44:27and you know i want people to understand
44:32we had we here i know especially here
44:35witness dennis
44:36i know our staff will be very busy and i
44:39have amazing stuff
44:41uh amazing ed amazing board
44:44um
44:46i want y'all to understand if y'all
44:47trying to learn this stuff if anything
44:50we can help you with you contact our
44:52organization contact ms natalie
44:54organization you know and ask questions
44:57because you know the education on this
45:00is very very important because guess
45:02what you may be a potential juror
45:05you make it with you educated or you may
45:09have someone you know going through a
45:11case or something and you will be able
45:13to identify some of this stuff that is
45:15seriously a problem just by educating
45:18yourself on it now you know it may never
45:20be used
45:23hopefully it never be used where you
45:25have to be on uh
45:27a case and we have to defend you but
45:30you know it it's good to be educated
45:33instead of waiting for it to hit you at
45:35your back door before you try to learn
45:38and understand about it
45:40so with that being said you know i went
45:42over my 30 minutes
45:44um
45:46luckily i don't get fined from doing
45:48that but
45:49uh
45:50i want to thank everybody for joining us
45:53uh this week at crude justice and i ask
45:55that everyone that sees this video
45:58please share it
46:00please share it the more you share it is
46:03some information in this video that will
46:06allow
46:07someone
46:09to
46:10grasp what but they didn't know you know
46:14on what they needed to know
46:16and if we can reach one person every
46:18share guess what
46:20it's it's it's
46:22it's spreading it's spreading and that's
46:25helping us get the justice system in
46:28society on one page to understand that
46:31we want justice
46:33justice
46:35thank you from cruel justice
46:38thank you
46:39thanks so much

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