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Crude Capitalism: Oil, Corporate Power, and the Making of the World Market (with Adam Hanieh) — Transcript

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0:00Okay, welcome everyone to this
0:02historical materialism broadcast. Thank
0:04you for coming to what I am sure will be
0:06a fantastic session. My name is Alex
0:09Duffleel. I'm an editorial board member
0:11of the journal and we run these events
0:13regularly. So, if you haven't already,
0:15do sign up to our mailing list um to
0:17hear more about future events. Today
0:20we're here to discuss the book Crude
0:23Capitalism: Oil, Corporate Power, and
0:25the Making of the World Market by Adam
0:27Hier, which was published with Verso in
0:302024 and also was the co-winner of the
0:332025 best book by an international
0:35scholar um global and transational
0:38section of the American Sociological
0:39Association.
0:41Adam is director of the SOASS Middle
0:44East institute and professor in
0:46development studies department at SOASS
0:48University of London. He is the author
0:50of four monographs including of course
0:53most recently crude capitalism and he is
0:55also an editorial board member of
0:57historical materialism
0:59and we're also joined by Nive Mananda.
1:01Nivei is professor of global politics at
1:04Queen Mary University. She's the author
1:06of Imagining Afghanistan: The History
1:09and Politics of Imperial Knowledge,
1:10which was out with Cambridge University
1:12Press in 2020, and the author of
1:15Fugitive Solidarity: Border
1:17Transgressions Against Colonialism and
1:19Capitalism, which is out next year with
1:21Stanford University Press. Okay,
1:24brilliant. That's really all from me, so
1:26we can get started. The way that it's
1:27going to work is that Adam is going to
1:29present his book to us for around 40
1:32minutes and then that'll be followed by
1:34comments and questions from Nivei. Adam
1:37can then respond. Um, but we also have
1:39time for a Q&A so we can integrate
1:43questions from the audience. So if you
1:44have any questions, please use the chat
1:46in the YouTube stream to post your
1:47questions and I'll be sure to put it um
1:49to Adam and Navy later on. But that's
1:52all from me Adam. I'll hand over to you.
1:56Thank you so much Alex and thanks Nivy
1:58very much for um uh willing to be the
2:00discussant at this uh talk. Uh I'm going
2:03to just share some slides and um then
2:06I'll then I'll kick off with the uh
2:08introduction. Um
2:20okay. So uh yes, thanks again to
2:25everyone who's uh taking time to be here
2:27at uh at the talk. Uh I wanted to uh I'm
2:32not going to speak about everything in
2:34the book, but I do want to just cover
2:35some of the key uh uh parts of the book.
2:38Um and I'm going to begin by just
2:40explaining a little bit about the kind
2:42of theoretical motivation where the book
2:44came from and uh uh how I approached
2:46this question of oil. uh and then look
2:49at um four kind of aspects of the book
2:53uh including how it might speak to the
2:55current moment um the situation in the
2:57Middle East obviously with the
2:58US-Israeli war against Iran and a bit
3:00more uh broadly. So let me uh just begin
3:04with some comments about the the uh the
3:07theoretical framing. Uh the book itself
3:10uh is in part a response to a
3:14dissatisfaction with a lot of writing on
3:16uh oil and other kinds of commodities uh
3:19which tends to invest these uh these
3:23resources with uh their own kind of
3:26inherent uh innate uh power. uh instead
3:29what I'm doing in the book is trying to
3:32build upon uh a longstanding critique of
3:35Marx and many others uh around this kind
3:38of commodity fetishism where the
3:41commodity is thought to be uh uh exists
3:44separate from the social relations of
3:46capitalism separate from the dynamics
3:49and logics of capitalism itself. uh
3:51rather than beginning with the social
3:53system in which we live uh and there and
3:56from there uh trying to understand what
3:59it is about capitalism that gives uh
4:02something like oil this innate power
4:04because at the end of the day uh as I
4:06say in the book oil is simply a black
4:08sticky goo. Um there's something about
4:11our society uh our social system about
4:14capitalism that invests with this kind
4:17of power. So in in talking about these
4:20uh logics of capitalism uh I speak about
4:23questions like the the tendency towards
4:26um endless accumulation uh uh the the
4:29seeking of of of profit and and
4:31valorization um of of of profit uh the
4:35speeding up of the um circulation and
4:38and consumption and production of
4:40capital the turnover time as Markx noted
4:42it and uh the question of the organic
4:45composition the replacement of uh living
4:48labor by dead labor in the production
4:50process and other kinds of qualities of
4:53this of capitalism that I think help us
4:57understand why it is that oil uh has
4:59emerged as such a cru crucial uh
5:02commodity within our energy system. So
5:06that's one side of of the book. The the
5:08other side is to connect uh this
5:10question of oil uh more directly to the
5:14form of the world market um that it took
5:17through the 20th century in particular
5:20the place of the United States as the uh
5:23uh dominant uh uh capitalist power
5:26through the post-war period uh World War
5:28II and onward. So trying to understand
5:30the ways in which oil was connected uh
5:33to the rise of the United States um and
5:36its its position in surpassing the older
5:39European colonial states um through the
5:4220th century and obviously this speaks
5:44very much to our current moment where we
5:46can see a relative decline in American
5:49power. Uh and so one of the questions
5:51that the book uh reflects on in in later
5:54chapters is what does the question of
5:56oil mean um when thinking about these
5:58changes we're seeing within the world
6:00system uh today. Uh the other aspect
6:04that I really try to emphasize in the
6:06book is that there is a lot of uh ways
6:08in which oil is is treated simply as its
6:12form subterranean form. Uh the the the
6:16oil reserves that are extracted from
6:18under the ground rather than thinking
6:20about what oil becomes as it circulates
6:24uh uh through our lives. Uh oil uh in
6:27its crude form is uh essentially
6:30worthless. it has to be turned into
6:32other things um to become use values and
6:35useful products. uh and uh this is takes
6:39place through the refining process
6:40through transport um and there's a
6:43myriad of other commodities that emerge
6:45uh uh from oil um as it is as it is uh
6:49refined and uh this is one of the
6:51reasons why I I spend quite a lot of
6:53time in the book talking about the
6:55prochemical industry and particularly
6:57the question of plastics and I'm going
6:59to come back to this uh today um in in
7:01in my slides uh also very uh uh
7:05pertinent here particularly in the
7:07current moment where where we're seeing
7:09um the war against Iran the the question
7:12of food and fertilizers um is a big part
7:15of understanding the place of oil in
7:17capitalism as well as uh another crucial
7:21aspect to oil and that's what happens to
7:23the financial surpluses uh that emerge
7:27as oil is sold um what we can call petro
7:30dollars uh these uh trillions of dollars
7:33in wealth um and uh how that circulates
7:37through the financial system is a key
7:38aspect of understanding uh oil's place
7:42in capitalism uh today and again I want
7:44to come back to this question a little
7:45bit later. So that's the that's the kind
7:48of broad theory if you like. Um how does
7:51this unfold um in the book? Uh there's
7:5413 uh uh chapters. Uh I'm not going to
7:57speak to all of these uh questions
7:59tonight, but just to highlight a few uh
8:03some of the narrative arc is one is uh a
8:06kind of a chronological or historical
8:08account uh of oil's uh rise from the
8:11early uh moments of the uh turn of the
8:15the the the century um and the the rise
8:18of standard oil in the United States. um
8:21uh then it's kind of the geographical
8:23expansion of uh the oil industry through
8:27um the Middle East. um as well as uh I
8:29spend two chapters looking at uh Russia
8:32and Russia's oil industry uh the
8:34question of uh the place of oil in the
8:36Bolevik revolution um 1917 and then
8:39later with the collapse um uh of the
8:42Soviet Union uh uh through the 1990s and
8:46thinking about oil's place um in Putin's
8:49uh uh Russia uh and then uh so there's
8:52this kind of broad historic arc that
8:54looks at these different geographies
8:56including Latin America, African in the
8:58Middle East. Um as well as the kind of
9:01changing structures of the oil industry.
9:03Um in particular uh the uh uh the rise
9:07of uh national oil companies um these
9:10are large state-owned oil companies in
9:12places like Saudi Arabia and China and
9:14Brazil and elsewhere. And I'm I'm going
9:16to speak again uh to this um a little
9:19bit later today. So uh and the final
9:22part of the book obviously um and
9:24running throughout the entire account is
9:26this question of oil's um uh uh place as
9:29the dominant fossil fuel uh from the mid
9:3220th century onwards. a place it holds
9:35uh continues to hold today. Um and uh
9:38really thereby centering this question
9:40of oil in the climate emergency um and
9:44needing to deal with this connection
9:46between oil oil's place in capitalism in
9:48order to understand um the the the ways
9:51forward uh for um an ecosocialist future
9:55um which again I'm going to come back to
9:57uh uh a bit later in in in the talk. So
10:00what I want to do um is is cover four
10:03basic uh themes from that um that
10:06outline and try and also to bring it to
10:08some of the current events that we see
10:10today. Um and then uh I'll leave it uh
10:13to Nivei to to raise some questions. Um
10:16the the the four points I want to look
10:18at. Firstly, I'm going to talk about
10:19this question of petrochemicals. Um
10:22secondly, the rise of national oil
10:24companies and the linkages between in
10:26particular um the Middle East oil
10:28industry and China, East Asia. Uh
10:31thirdly, the questions of of money uh
10:34oil and finance um uh in particular the
10:38ways in which they relate to the
10:39contemporary [clears throat] financial
10:40system um and US imperialism. Uh and
10:43then finally the kind of future-looking
10:46future forward uh questions about
10:48ecoocialism and and the climate
10:50emergency. So let me begin uh with this
10:54question uh of of prochemicals.
11:02To me uh this is uh a really critical
11:05part of understanding uh the oil uh oil
11:08industry and the reasons why oil uh did
11:12emerge at that moment um of the postc
11:15world war period um and become so
11:18centrally embedded in our lives. Uh when
11:21we think about oil, we tend to think
11:23about it simply in its form as a liquid
11:27transport fuel. The the petrol that we
11:29put in our in our cars um uh uh it s it
11:33its role as an energy transport fuel. Uh
11:37what I try to do in the book however and
11:39you perhaps noticed in the chapter
11:41outline is is really try to center
11:43instead the other kinds of derivative uh
11:46products that emerge u from the uh from
11:50the oil industry. Uh, and I'm talking
11:53here about things like plastics, um,
11:56synthetic fertilizers, synthetic
11:57rubbers, synthetic fibers, all of these,
12:00uh, products of oil and gas today, um,
12:03that are really, uh, absolutely central
12:06to the way that capitalism uh, functions
12:09and material production. Uh, these
12:12synthetic products are, as I said,
12:15derived from hydrocarbons and they
12:17surround us. If we think about where
12:19we're sitting today um in in the rooms
12:21that we're that we're in, we are
12:23basically uh surrounded by a pool of oil
12:26um oil derived products. For instance,
12:29the clothes um that we are wearing are
12:31typically made from synthetic fibers. uh
12:34the plastics, the the rubbers, um uh the
12:38paints, uh all of these kinds of uh
12:40commodities that are derived um
12:43synthetically uh produced synthetically
12:46and have displaced um naturally
12:48occurring uh commodities like wood um uh
12:52like steel and and other kinds of
12:54natural natural products cotton and and
12:56so forth. So um this shift this shift to
13:00synthetic oil derived products emerged
13:03um around the time of the uh the second
13:07world war um and it was headquartered
13:09this shift was headquartered in um the
13:12United States uh driven forward by uh
13:15the US uh oil industry up until that
13:18moment uh the uh uh uh burgeoning
13:22prochemical industry um was or the
13:25chemical industry was largely
13:26headquarted started in um Germany um and
13:30uh in Germany uh it was coal that was
13:33the uh the the feed stock through which
13:36um these chemicals uh were produced. So
13:40uh what we are seeing here is a shift
13:42from coal to oil as the primary feed
13:46stock not as an energy source but as a
13:48feed stock for uh material uh
13:51production. So the story of how this
13:53came about historically is is one um
13:55that is uh is is a really fascinating
13:58one. It's one that is absolutely um uh
14:01joined at the hip with uh the rise of
14:03fascism um in in Germany uh and the link
14:07to the Nazi uh party through um the
14:11large kind of chemical um combines like
14:14IG Farbin. Um but what happens during
14:17World War II is the emergence of a US uh
14:20based US- centered prochemical industry
14:23in which oil rather than coal is the
14:26primary uh feed stock. Uh this is driven
14:29forward by a range of state sponsored um
14:32efforts to kind of uh uh kickstart um
14:36the industry because up until that point
14:38um Germany had been uh the major center
14:40of chemical production globally. Um and
14:43it what it did was it made oil uh so
14:47much more uh important to our daily
14:49lives because it wasn't simply um uh a
14:52transport fuel. It was the actual
14:54materiality of commodity production was
14:57transformed um through these derivatives
15:00uh of oil. Now what this did for
15:03capitalism connecting back to uh some of
15:06the earlier points uh theoretical points
15:08I made uh is that it enabled capitalism
15:12um and capitalist production to really
15:15uh accelerate uh both the uh the volume
15:19of commodities um that were being
15:21produced because it dell this uh from uh
15:25from nature if you like decoupled
15:27production from nature in this kind of
15:29way. Um and it also uh enabled the the
15:32speeding up um of uh capitalist
15:35production commodity production because
15:38uh it uh it it was uh really connected
15:41to the development of um the assembly
15:44line, injection molding uh uh machines
15:47and these uh plastics products that
15:50could just be uh uh produced from simple
15:52molds. um and uh in in this sense it
15:56reduced the time to produce uh
15:58commodities as well as accelerated um
16:01the consumption uh of of of commodities.
16:04So one example that I refer to um in the
16:07book is the example of fast fashion. the
16:09idea that today uh our our uh our
16:13clothing um is is uh typically produced
16:17through synthetic fibers. Um and this
16:20kind of emergence of synthetic clothing
16:22um that took place uh really accelerated
16:24particularly in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Um
16:27was uh concurrent with the the the
16:30restructuring of the global fashion
16:32industry. But it also enabled um uh a
16:35massive expansion in the quantity of of
16:38clothing. um and this kind of fast
16:40seasonal turnover, multiple um seasons
16:43of um of of style and fashion um within
16:47a single season. Um so the nature of the
16:50fashion industry under capitalism was
16:52deeply connected um to this synthetic
16:55turn uh that um we see in the latter
16:58part of the 20th century. uh it wasn't
17:00simply a question of um of the the
17:03exploitation of cheap labor and the and
17:05the uh the the kinds of uh uh
17:08arrangements of factories. Um obviously
17:10this is a key part but the the question
17:12of material production and this
17:14syntheticization
17:15um of the industry is key to
17:17understanding um these changes. So um
17:20this uh is is remains I think a critical
17:23part of understanding oil's place today
17:26because the oil industry uh became not
17:30simply um a producer of liquid transport
17:33fuels but really became embedded in
17:35every aspect um of our daily lives in
17:38every aspect of commodity production. Um
17:41and this is part of what we can describe
17:43as the downstream diversification of the
17:46oil industry in which oil companies uh
17:50uh uh really took charge of each step in
17:52this value chain. So the extraction of
17:55crude oil from under the ground, the
17:57refining as well as the prochemical and
17:59plastics um side uh of the industry uh
18:03uh uh in in later years. So this was the
18:06form this vertically integrated
18:08corporate form um of the big western oil
18:11companies uh in uh the early 20th
18:14century and mid 20th century backed very
18:16closely by um the US uh state. So uh
18:21this um American dominance um has
18:24continued uh uh it me it meant that um
18:28in in the questions of plastics and
18:30fertilizers uh uh and so forth um the
18:33big US corporate forms were were were
18:35dominant as I said tied to these
18:37vertically integrated uh oil firms. Um
18:40there's an important dimension of how
18:42this uh petrochemical production uh
18:45takes place and continues to take place
18:47in the United States with locations in
18:49in racialized and marginalized um
18:51communities um such as uh uh uh cancer
18:55cancer alley um where some of the
18:57biggest uh uh US petrochemical firms um
19:00are located. So what does this mean uh
19:04politically this kind of centering of
19:05this question of plastics and
19:07prochemicals? Uh um as I said, this is
19:10one of the I think um key uh reasons
19:13that oil was emerged and overtook um
19:17coal as the leading fossil fuel in the
19:19middle of the 20th century. Um but I
19:22think the other aspect that it did was
19:23it invisibleized oil um in our lives in
19:27in ways that I spoke to uh earlier. We
19:30don't normally think about um oil in
19:33these kinds of of ways. And I think it's
19:35very important to center this question
19:38um because uh when we are uh uh
19:41bombarded with these um uh uh horrifying
19:44stories of of microplastics and other
19:46forms of um plastic and toxic pollutions
19:49arising from the prochemical industry.
19:52uh it is I think essential to think
19:54about these uh questions as a question
19:57of oil and fossil fuels more generally
20:00not simply a question of of of recycling
20:02or uh dealing with the consequences of
20:05of toxic waste. Um and I think this uh
20:08goes a long way to explaining why it is
20:11that uh the it's been the oil industry
20:14um that has led the charge against any
20:17uh global attempts to uh limit the
20:20production um of of plastics um such as
20:24negotiations around the plastic global
20:26plastics treaty um in which oil
20:29companies have argued that the problem
20:32um is is waste uh and not production. Um
20:36I think that kind of encapsulates this
20:37argument uh very clearly um and the need
20:40to I think to to center this question of
20:43oil in understanding um these
20:45prochemical products because the future
20:47projections for oil demand growth um
20:50really do lie in the prochemical and
20:53plastics industry. This is where the oil
20:55industry describe the future of oil as
20:58being um in in these new in these in
21:01these synthetic uh uh commodities. So
21:04let me jump now to the second part um
21:07which is looking at um the rise of of
21:10national oil companies and some of the
21:12structural changes we can see um in the
21:14global uh oil industry over the last
21:17couple of decades. Um and in particular
21:19I want to begin with um uh some of the
21:22the patterns that we can see in terms of
21:24oil uh imports um and the crude oil
21:28trade um at a global level.
21:33on this um this table um which uh I have
21:38actually just updated because the most
21:39recent figures um for this trade um have
21:42have just come through. Um this looks at
21:46uh the share of world crude oil imports
21:50uh from different parts of the world um
21:53uh US uh Europe, China, India, Japan and
21:57then uh East Asia uh uh Southeast Asia.
22:01So this is um over the last two and a
22:03half decades. Uh and we can see here u a
22:07really critical change that's happened
22:08in the the these figures are in
22:10percentage. They tell us um the share of
22:14world crude oil imports uh going to
22:17particular geographies. So we can see in
22:20the early 2000s uh about half of the
22:22world's oil was flowing um to the US and
22:25and Europe um uh and uh uh the other
22:29parts of other parts of the world were
22:31relatively um much less uh however in
22:35the last two and a half decades uh we
22:37see a huge um realignment in the in the
22:41global oil trade uh and the shift of um
22:44oil exports towards China and wider East
22:47Asia. We can see now uh that uh 26%
22:53um more than 1 in4 barrels of oil that
22:56is exported uh globally uh is flowing to
22:59China. Um similarly uh India has seen a
23:04significant increase uh in its share of
23:06consumption um as well as the rest of
23:09East Southeast Asia places like
23:10Singapore, South Korea and and and and
23:13so forth. So we see this eastward shift
23:16um in the oil industry. Now this is
23:18looking at crude oil. We would see a
23:20similar pattern if we looked at other um
23:22uh fossil fuel uh uh products like uh uh
23:26or types of fossil fuels like um uh gas
23:30uh natural gas. Um uh and these this
23:33this shift eastward shift um is closely
23:37associated obviously with the rise of
23:40China as a key manufacturing uh center
23:43uh industrial center globally. um
23:46China's uh consumption of energy um has
23:50quadrupled nearly um over the last uh uh
23:54since the year 2000. An extraordinary um
23:57increase in oil consumption um over this
24:00period. Oil's uh uh uh importance to
24:03China is not simply in um again liquid
24:07transport fuels. is also in the uh
24:10refining and prochemical industries in
24:12which um the much of Chinese
24:14manufacturing depends upon the uh
24:17production of these uh uh uh or
24:20manufactur depends upon these synthetic
24:22products that I spoke um to earlier. So
24:24again we can see this dual nature um or
24:28multifaceted nature of oil as a
24:30substance of commodity production as
24:32well as simply um a transport fuel. Now
24:36the other uh there's two other important
24:38dimensions to this uh uh shift this
24:40eastward shift that need to be
24:42highlighted. The first is that uh this
24:45is not simply a zero sum game. It's not
24:48as if oil was flowing uh westward um to
24:52the US and Europe and now it flows
24:54eastward. Um over this time there has
24:57been uh an overall generalized increase
25:00in the absolute consumption and
25:03production um of oil over these two and
25:06a half decades. So uh it's not as if um
25:09oil has just shifted one way uh and
25:11stayed at the same level. there's been
25:13an absolute increase um uh very
25:16significant increase of about uh 30% um
25:19in in the overall uh consumption um as a
25:23result of uh China's growing consumption
25:25and other parts of other parts of the
25:28world. So that's the first um question.
25:30this this shift China's emergence as a
25:32key center of capital accumulation and
25:34manufacturing um has been connected to
25:38this uh uh uh uh global increase in
25:42energy consumption, oil consumption and
25:44therefore um uh the uh emissions carbon
25:47emissions obviously the second key
25:49aspect to this is the geographies uh
25:52where these exports originate and here
25:55it's very clearly um uh centered around
25:58uh the Middle East in particular
25:59particular um the Gulf States of the
26:02Middle East um the Gulf monarchies as
26:04well as Iraq and Iran um those oil
26:07producing regions are the key um
26:10suppliers of China's um oil imports
26:13globally about 60% um of China's uh oil
26:17comes from um the Middle East surpassing
26:19Russia uh uh uh West Africa um and other
26:24um oil oil producing areas. So we see
26:28here uh what I call in the book an east
26:31east hydrocarbon axis uh that is linking
26:35um the Middle East and East Asia and
26:38China uh uh the Gulf in particular and
26:40China as this the core of this axis uh
26:43uh through the trade in um uh crude oil
26:47uh as well as natural gas LNG uh but
26:51also the trade and involvement in
26:53prochemical and refining. So um this is
26:56not simply a trade in crude products. Um
26:59it is also uh the export um and
27:02consumption of these prochemical uh
27:04products as well as um very uh deep um
27:09interdependencies through foreign direct
27:11investment capital flows um between uh
27:14the Gulf region and China in particular
27:16the Gulf monarchies and uh China in the
27:19prochemical um industry where we see uh
27:22large uh uh nationally owned oil
27:24companies investing in the Chinese
27:27prochemical industry in very um
27:29significant ways. So uh these changes
27:32that I've described here, the rise of
27:34China, the growth in global oil
27:36consumption, the eastward shift in these
27:38oil exports um have propelled another
27:41very significant uh uh change in the
27:44global oil industry which is the rise of
27:47national oil companies uh um
27:50headquartered largely in the Gulf States
27:52um uh to become uh uh uh really at the
27:56the the pinnacle of the industry
27:58globally. Um I'm not at all trying to
28:01say that the big western oil
28:02multinationals are no longer important.
28:04They are um Exxon Mobile, BP, Shell,
28:08Chevron and so forth. Um but they tend
28:11to be uh uh focused on the North
28:14American uh and West European
28:16geographies. Whereas in other parts of
28:18the world in particular through this
28:20east access we see um the rise of these
28:24very significant uh national oil
28:26companies. In particular, um I want to
28:28highlight Saudi Aramco um which today is
28:33uh by far uh the largest uh oil company
28:36uh in the world. Saudi Aramco uh uh is
28:42uh the national oil company in in Saudi
28:44Arabia. It used to be um an American oil
28:47company uh in the early days. Um it was
28:49nationalized through the 70s and 80s. Um
28:52it is now uh uh controlled by the Saudi
28:55state. part of it is also listed on the
28:57Saudi stock exchange. Uh but what has
29:00happened is that Aramco um has uh grown
29:04very substantially um alongside these
29:07processes I've just described uh and has
29:10uh followed the path of those big
29:13western um uh oil multinationals in
29:17becoming uh vertically integrated. In
29:19other words, Aramco is now um found all
29:23down the oil value chain um in
29:26petrochemical production, in plastics
29:28production. The second largest synthetic
29:30rubber producer in the world is now uh
29:33uh owned by um Saudi Aramco. Uh uh the
29:37second or third largest prochemical firm
29:39in the world is now a subsidiary um of
29:42Saudi Aramco. uh uh as well as uh tanker
29:46fleets, refinery infrastructure,
29:48pipelines um uh and even marketing uh uh
29:52petrol stations, service stations where
29:54oil is sold to the final consumer. Those
29:56of us um who have been watching the
29:59World Cup in the last few weeks may have
30:01noticed that Aramco um is adorning the
30:05the the sides of the the fields. Um uh
30:08and I think this is very indicative of
30:10the ways in which Aramco um is is now
30:13projected as a global company um but
30:16also down the value chain is actually um
30:18the prime energy the leading energy
30:20sponsor for the the World Cup. Now this
30:23is um significant uh for a number of
30:26reasons. Um one is that uh the size as I
30:30said of these firms um is very
30:33substantial. Aramco. Uh the profits last
30:36year from Aramco surpassed um the the
30:40combined profits of the five largest
30:42western oil firms. Um Exxon Mobile, BP,
30:46Shell, Chevron, and Total Energies. Um
30:49those profits combined uh were less than
30:51that of Aramco. Um, Aramco also uh
30:55because it is uh involved in joint
30:58ventures in Saudi Arabia as well as
31:00listed on partly listed on the Saudi
31:03stock market is also an important site
31:06um for private capital accumulation um
31:08in the Gulf States as well. Um uh I
31:11don't have time to speak to this in
31:12detail but we can um certainly happy to
31:15speak more to this um in discussion.
31:17Aramco um has also taken a key steer in
31:21um global climate policy uh through uh
31:25for instance the public the the plastics
31:27treaty that I that I spoke about um
31:29earlier. Uh the key institutional or um
31:33uh force in blocking uh the signing of
31:36this uh treaty um intended to limit the
31:39production of plastics globally. um was
31:42led by Saudi Aramco. Um uh uh and Saudi
31:46Aramco and these other national oil
31:48companies are distinguished by the fact
31:50that they have a seat in the room um
31:53when these treaties and other kinds of
31:55climate policies are deliberated upon.
31:57Uh because they are state-owned firms um
32:01uh they uh they represented in the kinds
32:04of negotiations processes for um these
32:07uh climate policies. Another example of
32:09course is uh the uh uh the COP 28 summit
32:13in in Dubai a few years ago which was
32:16chaired by the Abu Dhabi national oil
32:18company ADNO another major uh national
32:21oil uh firm. So um this is just
32:26indicating the kind of downstream
32:28diversification and plastics. Um the GCC
32:31or the Gulf States are um the again uh
32:35uh the largest um uh exporters uh of
32:38these basic plastics um polymers and
32:41China is again um the main market for
32:44them because they feed into uh these
32:46these uh the Chinese manufacturing
32:48chains. Um importantly
32:52uh we need to understand uh this kind of
32:55vertical integration or downstream
32:56diversification of uh these oil and gas
32:59firms in the Gulf um as not simply being
33:03uh about uh prochemicals. There's a
33:05range of other chemicals that are
33:07involved um that really I think speak to
33:11the significance for instance of the the
33:14closure of hormones. Um uh we can see
33:17for instance sulfur uh uh nearly half of
33:20the world's sulfur exports come from the
33:21Gulf which is a byproduct of oil and gas
33:24uh um uh uh production. Sulfur is
33:28essential to the production of
33:29fertilizers uh phosphate fertilizers as
33:32well as um uh metal production nickel
33:35and and other kinds of metal um uh uh
33:38processing. So you know the the point
33:40being that we have to move beyond uh
33:43thinking about these Gulf states as
33:45simply giant oil spiggots um to
33:48understand their place in uh global
33:50supply chains and commodity production
33:53um that is closely connected to oil and
33:55gas but is not reducible um to just
33:58crude oil um exports um as might have
34:01been the case um in in earlier in
34:03earlier decades. Um again this bears I
34:06think a lot in terms of understanding
34:08the implications of the current war. Um
34:10and I I'll be happy to expand on that in
34:12in the discussion but to move on um I I
34:15I'll skip now to actually the the the
34:18more um kind of contemporary questions
34:20and particularly about um finance. And
34:23um I want to say that the other aspect
34:26to uh the expansion of uh the oil
34:30industry in the Middle East and in the
34:32Gulf um that I've described is the
34:35amassing of um huge financial surpluses
34:38that really run into the trillions of
34:40dollars um particularly uh over the last
34:43uh two decades where the oil prices
34:46generally remained um high um and
34:49volumes of oil sold has also um been
34:52high because of um the the the patterns
34:54of geographical uh uh repivoting of the
34:57trade that I that I've just spoken to.
35:00So, one of the consequences of this is
35:02that Gulf um and Middle East oil
35:05producers more generally uh uh are
35:07becoming or have become one of the key
35:09surplus zones globally. Um and and this
35:12you can see this is from a recent IMF
35:14report. uh you can see in the light
35:17green uh uh oil exporters and these are
35:19primarily um the Gulf we're speaking
35:21about um the Gulf monarchies uh uh
35:24alongside uh China um as well as uh uh
35:29Japan uh is one of the the key surplus
35:32zones globally um and obviously the
35:36other side to this are global deficits
35:38um which are largely um concentrated in
35:41the United States. So um what these uh
35:44what these patterns show is the ways in
35:46which um the the oil surpluses uh from
35:49the Gulf um as well as China, Japan and
35:52some European states um uh is has really
35:55been central to the ability of the US to
35:58run these prolonged and significant um
36:00deficits over over many decades. uh um
36:04but this has in in turn relied upon uh
36:07the continual inflow of Gulf um uh
36:11financial surpluses into US uh financial
36:14markets. Uh and this is something that
36:17has its early days in the 1970s um uh uh
36:21uh which I don't have time to speak to
36:22this that particular moment. Um but it
36:25continues today with the flow of um
36:28financial surpluses from the Gulf into
36:31US equity markets um US treasury bonds
36:34and also into US um companies uh uh uh
36:39through uh direct investments through
36:42sovereign wealth funds and other kinds
36:43of um capital vehicles. Uh so um to give
36:48a size an indication of the kind of size
36:52of these financial surpluses uh we can
36:55measure this in a variety of ways. Uh
36:57it's it's um we can see it through the
37:00level of foreign reserves um which are
37:02highly significant in the Gulf. U I'm
37:05talking here about the six Gulf
37:07monarchies uh only about those six
37:09monarchies in particular Saudi Arabia
37:12and the United Arab Emirates and MQA and
37:14Kuwait, Alman and Bahrain. These are the
37:17main these are the six Gulf monarchies
37:19and they are um uh the the kind of
37:22center of in which these um petro dollar
37:24surpluses um have amassed. Uh so foreign
37:28reserves are significant. Um but perhaps
37:30even more significant are sovereign
37:32wealth funds um that are headquartered
37:34in the Gulf region um which nearly uh uh
37:38reach now um about 5 trillion in assets.
37:41Um u we also need to consider private
37:44wealth uh in the Gulf um uh in uh
37:47corporations and wealthy high netw worth
37:49individuals um which is very significant
37:52as well. Um and also as part of this uh
37:55the private wealth of ruling monarchs um
37:58in the region um which again uh uh is
38:02managed through uh the managed through
38:04the state but is actually privately um
38:06owned wealth uh uh which is estimated to
38:09be around about half a trillion um
38:12dollars. So, we're talking many
38:13trillions of dollars. Um much more
38:16significant than the 1970s um uh oil
38:20petro dollar boom um um in in recent in
38:24recent years. Now, um there's there's a
38:28lot to talk about where this money goes.
38:30Um but I and but I just want to
38:32highlight two points here. The first is
38:35that uh even though the uh exports of
38:40the Gulf, the commodity exports of the
38:42Gulf are flowing eastward in the ways
38:44that I've described, um the wealth uh
38:48these surpluses
38:50predominantly continues to flow into US
38:53uh financial markets. Um whether that be
38:56through sovereign wealth funds um or
38:58through other kinds of investments. in
39:00particular um the Gulf really stands out
39:03as a key source of foreign investment
39:06into US equity markets um uh uh much
39:10more uh than uh China for instance which
39:13is tends to be um uh dominant you know
39:16proportionally uh much larger in in
39:18treasury bonds US treasury bonds um so
39:21that's one one question we can see this
39:23if you if you follow the kind of
39:25financial news at any level you may have
39:28noticed for example The Paramount Warner
39:30Brothers um uh bid was uh uh centered
39:34around um uh Gulf sovereign wealth fund
39:37uh investments. Um the SpaceX listing uh
39:40again uh Gulf sovereign wealth funds
39:43played a major role in that um IPO and
39:46also in earlier investments into X um um
39:49and other kinds of AI uh related data
39:52center related um investments. So this
39:55is um not simply investments in
39:57infrastructure and the in the kind of
39:59traditional sense in buildings and real
40:01estate. Um it's also into these kind of
40:04more cutting edge um uh forms of capital
40:07accumulation uh and really kind of link
40:10um the Gulf with uh this this sector um
40:13this technology sector um of the United
40:16States. The other very important
40:18dimension um to the recircul re
40:20recirculating of this uh these surpluses
40:23is through the military industry. Um and
40:25the Gulf is the largest consumer um of
40:30uh military hardware globally. Um and
40:33these are overwhelmingly um from um the
40:36United States US produced uh uh arms and
40:39and weapons. So Saudi Arabia is the
40:42largest single recipient um purchases of
40:45of US arms. um uh uh globally. Uh so
40:49this is obviously another way in which
40:51um this wealth recirculates into the US
40:53economy. So um what I'm saying here is
40:56that it complicates um I think these
41:00narratives of of um of kind of
41:03multipolarity uh or this simple switch
41:06from uh the Middle East or the Gulf
41:08States eastward. Um in fact uh in many
41:11ways the Gulf is becoming more deeply
41:13embedded in US financial markets um uh
41:17uh uh over over recent decades. So um
41:22how do we see this in the context of the
41:24of the war um and also of the the
41:26genocide in Gaza? Um I really think that
41:29the patterns that I've I've I've
41:31described are absolutely central to
41:33understanding um the the US imperial pro
41:36project in in the Middle East. um uh in
41:39particular a long-standing multi-deade
41:42attempt by the United States to reassert
41:45its primacy um in uh in the Middle East
41:49region uh in particular through knitting
41:52together um its historic pillars um of
41:55influence and dominance in the Middle
41:57East that is Israel on one side and the
41:59Gulf monarchies um those six states I I
42:02I noted on the other in particular Saudi
42:05Arabia and the UAE. So um what the
42:08United States has tried to do um and has
42:11had some success in doing so u
42:13particularly through the Abraham Accords
42:14is to um link uh through normalization
42:18political economic uh and diplomatic
42:20normalization um Israel and the Gulf
42:23monarchies uh uh in particular the
42:26Abraham Accord saw the UAE um and
42:29Bahrain uh sign up um to this
42:31normalization deal under US um opices um
42:36And really uh uh this in in in in I
42:39think reading and and trying to
42:41understand uh the more kind of uh global
42:44situation is that this is an attempt by
42:47the United States to um really uh double
42:51down on its power in the in the Middle
42:53East region um in particularly in the
42:56context of um China's dependence upon um
43:00the energy resources uh from the region
43:03as well as um the continued recircul
43:05population of the Gulf's financial
43:07surpluses into um US financial markets.
43:10It's not simply a question of oil
43:12exports. It's also a question of these
43:14financial um uh surpluses and their
43:17connection with American uh uh financial
43:19dominance um globally. So um again I we
43:24can talk more about this in in the
43:26discussion I'm sure but um uh it's you
43:29know the the kind of current moment is
43:31is difficult to to to know um uh where
43:35this war is going um uh uh and whether
43:39uh you know whether the recent uh uh uh
43:43bombing we've seen in the last few days
43:45um portends further escalation. Um uh
43:49certainly the other aspect of this is
43:51the question of of Lebanon and uh
43:53Israel's um uh uh war in in Lebanon as a
43:58kind of regional aspect of this. Um
44:00again all of these questions Palestine,
44:02Gaza, Iran, Yemen and other places need
44:05to be thought of um within I think this
44:07s single regional context not as
44:09separate individual um geographies. So
44:12um there are open questions here again
44:15about what will this how will this war
44:18change um kind of the regional
44:20infrastructure and these kinds of trade
44:21patterns I've described um uh as well as
44:24perhaps the US um uh uh position and
44:28alliances with the Gulf States. Um but I
44:30think a big part of this will also be
44:32the question of post-war um
44:34reconstruction um and uh who is the who
44:38directs that reconstruction. Um so let
44:41me move forward though to the final
44:43point which is um again coming back to
44:45this question of uh socialist strategy
44:48ecosocialist struggles. Um uh and I want
44:51to just make a few general points here
44:53uh where where I think um this analysis
44:56of of oil and centering oil and
44:58capitalism um relates to uh our efforts
45:01to to um uh uh combat uh the climate
45:06emergency. Um and again I want to just
45:08highlight this question of the Gulf
45:10because I don't think it's given enough
45:12um attention um in uh the kind of bigger
45:15climate uh discussions uh um because the
45:19centrality of the Gulf um to global oil
45:23and gas uh it's not simply oil these
45:26days. It's also uh uh gas um is is
45:29really key. the the the the decisions
45:32made um by those national oil companies
45:34and states in the region will determine
45:37the trajectory of carbon um emissions
45:40and the climate um in the coming years.
45:43There's no doubt about that. We can see
45:44that there is a very clear intent um by
45:48these states to ramp up um the
45:51production of oil and gas in very
45:52significant ways. The Saudi oil minister
45:55said um a few years ago, every molecule
45:57of hydrocarbon will come out. Um and
46:00since that time um has backed up that
46:03statement with um uh investments um uh
46:07and expansion of of production, the same
46:09with the other um Gulf states. LG is a
46:12very big part of this too. Um it's not
46:14simply um crude crude oil. Um so I think
46:17in in terms of um oil's uh uh uh place
46:21in capitalism um uh uh it has it is not
46:25being dislodged. Um and I would um push
46:28back against those who uh who claim that
46:32we're seeing a shift to uh uh you know
46:35some kind of renewables capitalism or a
46:37greens transition. Um I don't um think
46:39that's happening. Um I think in fact the
46:42opposite is happening. Um um we're
46:44seeing an acceleration of um uh the
46:47production of oil and gas and coal um uh
46:50globally uh uh in in in moving forward
46:53and certainly the the the latest figures
46:55that came out this week um I think bear
46:58that assessment out um 100%. So um uh
47:03the political implications that and I
47:05I'll just end on this point. Uh firstly
47:09um I think we need to think about this
47:12question of transitions um you know
47:14whether it be the so-called coal to oil
47:16transition or the so-called green
47:18transition um as additive rather than
47:21substitutive processes uh you can see in
47:25this graph um that uh in the 1950s when
47:28oil emerged as the leading fossil fuel
47:31um it didn't mean that coal uh was no
47:34longer being consumed uh and produced In
47:37fact, um coal has continued um to
47:40increase uh in fact and last year um was
47:43the world's largest uh uh uh consumption
47:46production of coal in in in history.
47:49Similarly with oil, similarly um with
47:51with gas those three key fossil fuels.
47:53So we are seeing um in the case of uh
47:57the oil in the coal to oil transition is
48:00oil was layered upon coal um added to
48:03the energy system um in the ways that
48:06I've described not just in terms of a
48:08fuel but also as a feed stock for these
48:10synthetic products. Um similarly today
48:14uh we see the uh layering of renewables
48:17um on top of this fossil fuel um base.
48:20So I think we need to call this uh uh
48:23squarely a myth. Um there is no green
48:25transition um that is happening. Um it's
48:28uh simply an expansion of the energy um
48:31system that is based uh and connected to
48:35um some of those points I raised right
48:36at the beginning about the logics of
48:38capitalism and the increasing throughput
48:40of energy um as as commodities uh uh
48:44production expands. So um uh this I
48:48think points to the fact the problem is
48:50not simply um oil companies. It's it's
48:53capitalism as a as a social system in
48:55terms of how we understand the climate
48:57emergency. Um and we do need to think to
49:00see um the question of the climate much
49:02more in wider um social and political uh
49:06uh struggles. Uh in particular um uh I
49:09would come back to what I was saying
49:11about um the questions of the Middle
49:12East and Palestine. seeing these uh
49:15questions as very much climate related
49:18issues um not simply um questions of of
49:21politics and and war. Um so I will leave
49:24it there. Um and thank you again uh Alex
49:26and Nivy uh for helping organize and and
49:29and allowing me to present tonight.
49:34>> Thank you so much Adam. That was
49:36fantastic. Um I just want to remind
49:38people who are watching that we do have
49:40time for questions later on. So, if you
49:41have a question for Adam, please put it
49:44in the chat. Um, but yeah, maybe
49:48>> you Alex,
49:50>> you can't hear me.
49:54>> No, we can hear you.
49:55>> Oh, you can. Okay. Sorry. I just wanted
49:57to hand over to you, Nippy.
49:58>> Okay. Thanks so much. Um, thanks for
50:01inviting me, Alex, and for giving me the
50:03opportunity to reach.
50:04>> Sorry, I can't uh not not hearing. It
50:06might be a problem on my end. just um
50:23sorry, can you speak?
50:24>> Yeah. Can you hear me?
50:25>> Yeah, I can hear now.
50:26>> Okay, great. Thanks. I was just saying
50:28thanks to Alex um for inviting me and
50:30also for giving me the opportunity to
50:32read this book, which I definitely would
50:34have done anyway, but to give me the
50:36opportunity to read it more carefully
50:38than I would otherwise um have done.
50:42I have a lot to say, but everyone's here
50:44to hear Adam, so I'm not going to hog
50:46this space. I'll just start with a few
50:48superficial points. The first thing that
50:50jumped at me is the title. Not only is
50:54it an incredible title, I also
50:56discovered as I read the book that it is
50:58accurate in its dublon tandra. So it
51:01surprised me that a lot of the workings
51:02of energy capitalism are incredibly
51:05crude and much less sophisticated than I
51:08previously assumed. The oligopolistic
51:12nature of the industry, the vertical
51:14integration of firms and the dominance
51:16of a few firms aided by western states
51:18and especially the United States have
51:20been made deliberately murky and
51:22obfiscation that I think this book works
51:23through and unravels with astonishing
51:25dexterity.
51:27The second thing I was struck by and
51:30here's the book. Um, sorry it's a bit
51:33blurry. uh was that and again I'm still
51:38judging it by its cover uh was that it's
51:40endorsed by David McN who lots of us
51:43would probably know um and his ring
51:45ringing endorsement says that it is a
51:48truly stunning book and I don't think
51:52I've ever heard of a book being
51:54described as stunning.
51:56Um but again after having read the book
51:58I can see exactly where he's coming
52:00from. The book is stunning in the sense
52:03that it leaves the reader stunned.
52:06The scope, the depth, and the narrative,
52:08I think, are all exquisite.
52:11It is a history of the present, a
52:13political economy of oil that
52:14demystifies its workings, and a
52:16panoramic dissection of capitalism in
52:19300 pages. It's really great, Adam.
52:22>> Thank you.
52:23>> I also feel like this is the only
52:24academic book I've read which does not
52:26have one single superfluous sentence.
52:30Um but there are also some sublime ones
52:32and I want to read one out towards the
52:34end of the book which really struck me
52:35and you're right. We have become the
52:37organic detritus within a synthetic
52:39world of our own creation. In other
52:42words, for those of us who might know
52:44the song, life may be plastic, but it's
52:47certainly not fantastic for most most of
52:49us.
52:50Okay, I'm going to stop being flippant.
52:52I'll move on to some of my sort of
52:54thoughts and questions.
52:56I really appreciate that you have some
52:58strategies around what is to be done and
53:00how we might possibly climb out of this
53:02massive hole that has engulfed all of us
53:04and seemingly will engulf all of our
53:06lives. You just ended by uh talking
53:09about the fact that there is no green
53:12transition and that even the notion of
53:14transition belies what actually happens
53:17which is we diversify and increase our
53:19use of fossil fuels. And just as Jean
53:22Batis Feros's book more and more and
53:24more shows that our delusions basically
53:27keep fossil fuel capitalism going, crude
53:30capitalism notes the additive nature of
53:32fuel consumption. Adam, you just
53:34mentioned what has always happened at
53:36what what is currently happening is an
53:38acceleration of fossil fuel production.
53:40And you're right, and I'm quoting a
53:42process of addition rather than
53:44displacement or replacement is what we
53:46see.
53:48So to end the relentless accumulation of
53:51capitalism, we need ecosocialism rather
53:53than an embrace of other energy sources
53:55such as hydrocarbons or indeed some more
53:58fantastical endeavors. For instance, I
54:01recently came across the scheme to
54:02harness solar power in space. This
54:06space-based solar power, SBSP,
54:09as it's been abbreviated to, will be
54:11achieved by rockets launching giant
54:14solar rays into orbit to beam energy to
54:17Earth. So instead of building solar
54:19farms on the ground, space agencies
54:21including NASA and private firms
54:23including SpaceX are developing ways to
54:26construct gigawatt scale solar stations
54:28in orbit. And of course this is going to
54:31be built as as part of a turn to
54:33renewables, although it's hush- hush at
54:34the moment for obvious reasons. And it
54:36is of course as dangerous and as insane
54:39as it sounds.
54:41So I guess my first question is
54:44was there any hope for anti-colonial
54:46oil? There are some semi-positive or at
54:49least complex characters in a story
54:51where most of the protagonists are bad
54:53guys and they are guys. I was intrigued
54:55by Enri Kate who was the head of Italy
54:59state-owned energy company ENI and he's
55:02a really interesting figure who
55:03challenged the western oil majors the
55:04sort of seven sisters and he was an
55:07ardent supporter so it seemed of
55:08anti-colonial independence movements in
55:10Africa particularly in Algeria and not
55:13only was he assassinated for wanting to
55:14negotiate deals on more positive terms
55:17with these countries so was the
55:19journalists investigating his death so
55:22could this have led to a more
55:24egalitarian world economy that still
55:26hinged on oil. Was that ever positive
55:28possible? I mean, Mate himself, he was
55:31in a private jet. He obviously wanted
55:33oil. Um, I think I I think I know
55:37perhaps what you're going to say, but I
55:38was wondering if that could have been a
55:41different path that's still dependent in
55:43in part at least on oil.
55:47My second question is linked. So we
55:49obviously have to abolish capitalism but
55:52we also have to abolish all states
55:54including ostensibly more progressive
55:56third world ones or they were in that
55:59moment. For instance the nationalization
56:01of oil in Iran under Mosedc was rightly
56:04celebrated but was nationalism ever the
56:07answer.
56:10My third question and this you also
56:12hinted at uh is about Palestine and
56:14genocide. So you mentioned thinking
56:16about Palestine, Gaza, Yemen etc. as
56:18interconnected geographies and I was
56:20wondering if you could speak a bit more
56:22about this. Specifically, I wanted to
56:24ask you to connect this to your short
56:26but brilliant recent volume co-authored
56:28with Raf Zada and Rob Knox. How do you
56:31connect crude capitalism to resisting
56:33erasia both in terms of the attempted
56:36erasia by capitalism and settler
56:37colonialism but also in terms of our
56:40resistance to it? And finally, I know
56:43I've asked you loads of questions, but
56:45finally I can't help but ask this one.
56:47You rise, you chart the rise of China
56:50and perhaps
56:52gesture to the impending collapse of the
56:55West.
56:57Is there anything to look forward to
56:58there or is it just going to be more of
57:00the same unless we the people sees the
57:02means of production? Okay, I'll end
57:04there. Thanks.
57:08>> Uh okay, let let me take each of those
57:10questions and thank you so much Nibby
57:12for the generous comments and um
57:15engagement with the book. Uh uh I I
57:18really appreciate the close reading that
57:19you that you have done um of of it. Uh
57:23so yeah, the question of anti- um
57:26anti-colonialism and to me this was one
57:28of the most interesting kind of parts of
57:30the oil history uh because and what I
57:33was trying to do was um in in that
57:36section uh uh looking both at uh the
57:40questions of you know Latin America as
57:42well as the Middle East and other parts
57:44of the world. this kind of moment where
57:46um you know it's the Bandong moment um
57:48it's the moment where OPEC is is is
57:50formed in the in 1960 uh there's kind of
57:53a slow steady uh attempt by uh producer
57:58governments in the global south or third
58:00world as it was called at that time to
58:01to nationalize their oil um and and this
58:05was uh I I do think in in terms of the
58:08the bigger history of anti-colonialism
58:10that the oil story is not that well
58:12represented um uh uh but it really was
58:15absolutely central. It was even
58:17mentioned in Bandong as as kind of one
58:19of the um points of of of um
58:22collaboration between uh different third
58:24world states. Um but what I tried to do
58:26is is is on one side avoid what I think
58:29is an overly kind of romanticized view
58:32um of this moment uh in which it's seen
58:35as like simply these states taking back
58:38um their plundered wealth um their
58:40plundered resources and bringing it back
58:42under um their national sovereignty or
58:45national control um as a kind of
58:48automatically um anti- capitalist or um
58:52progressive move if you like. Um um
58:54because I think the real picture is more
58:56complex than that. Uh because on one
58:59hand certainly you know there was this
59:02nationalization there was this kind of
59:03reversal um of of uh of control of at
59:08least the upstream um the the kind of
59:11oil in its crude form underneath um the
59:14ground nationalization. Um but uh at the
59:18same time if you look at the industry
59:20structure at that moment uh it was also
59:24uh the downstream remained fully under
59:26the control of um the big western firms.
59:29Uh and that downstream control was in
59:32many respects even more important um
59:34than the upstream control of kind of
59:36just the extraction process, the
59:38extraction moment. Um and and this you
59:41know if you look at the kind of down the
59:43kind of vertical integrated structure of
59:45of the firms the big oil firms the
59:47western oil firms at this moment you can
59:50understand why the the 1970s oil price
59:53spikes um were extremely fortuitous to
59:56these firms. um uh even though it might
59:59have hurt the person at the petrol pump
1:00:01filling their car um but for the bigger
1:00:03western firms it was extremely um uh
1:00:08they they benefit a lot from the spike
1:00:10in oil prices and the ability to set
1:00:12kind of the price of these refined
1:00:14products like petrol. Um so that's one
1:00:17thing like thinking about these
1:00:18corporate structures but the other
1:00:20really important part of this story um
1:00:22which I think again pushes back against
1:00:24the romanticization of it is that it was
1:00:27at this moment that the Gulf monarchies
1:00:30in particular Saudi Arabia uh was
1:00:33integrated into um American power
1:00:36globally. Um, and this undercut all of
1:00:39the kind of uh uh progressive um uh
1:00:43anti- uh capitalist if you like dynamics
1:00:46that might have been part of this um uh
1:00:48moment of of nationalization uh because
1:00:51what it was at this moment that these
1:00:53monarchies in particular Saudi Arabia um
1:00:56agreed uh to basically become part of
1:01:00the American empire um incorporating
1:01:03their their financial surpluses into US
1:01:06financial markets in the 1970s um uh
1:01:09which as I described today continues
1:01:11even more um in return for US protection
1:01:15for uh for these monarchies um and
1:01:17guarantee of their power in the face of
1:01:20um uh you know popular movements in the
1:01:23Middle East as a whole. Um, so one of
1:01:25the things I try to argue in the in in
1:01:27the book is that if we're thinking about
1:01:29this moment, we can't just think about
1:01:31it in terms of north south um or first
1:01:34world, third world or however you want
1:01:35to describe it. Um we also need to think
1:01:38about the kinds of um class dynamics
1:01:40inside these countries. Who is
1:01:43benefiting um from these processes and
1:01:45the ways in which states like uh the the
1:01:49regions like the Gulf um uh were
1:01:52incorporated into American power and
1:01:54really uh became standing against um
1:01:58movements in the the wider region like
1:02:00in Palestine, like in Egypt um and and
1:02:03elsewhere. Um, so it's a comp it's a
1:02:06more complicated story, but I think a
1:02:08more accurate picture of trying to
1:02:10understand um uh understand this in in
1:02:13reference to your um comment about uh
1:02:16any and and um uh mate um I I I do think
1:02:20uh it's a really fascinating story about
1:02:23um you know this kind of upstart Italian
1:02:25firm um that uh actually began um in in
1:02:31part uh uh as importing um uh Soviet oil
1:02:37um into Europe as a number of the other
1:02:38big um European oil firms did. Um and
1:02:42what these firms were these European
1:02:44firms were trying to do at this moment
1:02:46in the 1950s and 1960s uh was to uh gain
1:02:51greater uh position in the market uh
1:02:54against in particular what were called
1:02:56the seven sisters which were the big uh
1:02:59the seven big multinational oil firms
1:03:01that controlled um basically all of the
1:03:03world's oil outside of the US and Soviet
1:03:05Union at that time the mid 20th century.
1:03:08Um so these other western oil firms like
1:03:12any
1:03:13uh made deals with uh you know Nasser
1:03:17and uh Alger in Algeria and in Iran and
1:03:20elsewhere um to try to uh they offered
1:03:24much better deals in terms of um the the
1:03:27royalty rates uh for oil extraction in
1:03:30those countries. uh um they also offered
1:03:33uh technolog technology transfer um and
1:03:35skills transfer about how to run the oil
1:03:38industry. Um so they did play a role in
1:03:41kind of enabling the nationalization to
1:03:44kind of proceed. Um but I I I don't
1:03:47think we should read this as some kind
1:03:48of um anti-colonial solidarity from
1:03:51these western oil firms. It was really
1:03:53much it was really about trying to kind
1:03:56of undercut and find their own space in
1:03:58this industry that had been dominated by
1:04:00um those seven sisters that I that I
1:04:02spoke about. Um so yeah, it's but it's a
1:04:06really especially the you know his death
1:04:08and uh you know the connections with or
1:04:11the presumed connections with um the
1:04:13mafia in Italy and uh the the CIA and um
1:04:17western oil firms. Uh it's it's a really
1:04:19fascinating story actually. Um okay. Uh
1:04:23so I think I I've perhaps dealt with
1:04:26this question around nationalism. I I I
1:04:28mean I do think obviously um uh you know
1:04:32the attempts to kind of take back um
1:04:36these sovereign the these uh resources
1:04:39were uh were were a very important part
1:04:41of the kind of bigger global left at the
1:04:43moment at that moment and continue to
1:04:45be. uh um however I I don't think we can
1:04:50um understand this simply through the
1:04:51nationalist lens. Um we need to
1:04:53understand I think the class dynamics in
1:04:55these countries um um uh that really
1:04:58kind of uh you know play things in push
1:05:02things in different directions um
1:05:04particularly through how they might
1:05:05connect to say the US um um uh at that
1:05:08at that moment. Um, and this also
1:05:12connects to your question around uh uh
1:05:14Palestine and and the wider region. I I
1:05:16um I mean one of the things uh I I don't
1:05:19spend that much time in in crude
1:05:20capitalism talking about this but it's
1:05:21kind of the the bigger argument of that
1:05:23co-authored um book with Raf and Rob is
1:05:26to make the argument that um to
1:05:29understand Palestine uh we need to
1:05:31center it in this global oil economy and
1:05:34the rise of oil um through the mid 20th
1:05:37century um the crucial place of the
1:05:39Middle East in this um and in particular
1:05:42uh its connection to the rise of the
1:05:44United States as a dominant power in
1:05:46that post-war moment. Um and the key
1:05:48part of that from 1967 um was the
1:05:51alliance with Israel, US alliance with
1:05:53Israel. Um so uh to understand Palestine
1:05:58uh means to center this question of the
1:06:00wider region and the question of um oil.
1:06:03Um not simply take it as a question of
1:06:06you know international law or the human
1:06:08rights violations as kind of the ways
1:06:10that that Palestine is typically um
1:06:12spoken about. Uh, and this is what I
1:06:15mean about making seeing Palestine as a
1:06:17climate question. It's not just because
1:06:19there are gas reserves in the
1:06:20Mediterranean or that there's, you know,
1:06:23um, huge environmental destruction in in
1:06:25in Gaza and and in in the West Bank and
1:06:27elsewhere in Lebanon today. Um, uh, it's
1:06:30about actually the fundamental place um,
1:06:33of the region uh, and Israel in this
1:06:36kind of oil centered world that we live.
1:06:38um uh and this is deepening with this
1:06:40normalization uh processes that um that
1:06:43I spoke about. Um yeah on on the
1:06:47question of uh you know collapse of the
1:06:49west, rise of China, I mean I I uh I am
1:06:55I no I I think this is not necessarily
1:06:58uh you know a rush to some kind of um
1:07:01socialist utopia. I I do think um uh in
1:07:05fact what we are seeing is this kind of
1:07:07you know the relative decline of
1:07:09American power is not necessarily
1:07:11producing um positive benefits for the
1:07:14majority of the human uh of humanity and
1:07:17we can see that today um in the Middle
1:07:19East it's meaning more war more conflict
1:07:22um um I do think uh uh if you look at
1:07:25the questions of um energy in China I
1:07:28think there's also a lot of obfiscation
1:07:30there about what's actually going on um
1:07:32I don't think China can escape these
1:07:34basic logics of capitalism that I spoke
1:07:36about and I think the energy transition
1:07:39um you know there's no doubt China is
1:07:41massively expanding renewable capacity
1:07:43but it's also uh expanding fossil fuel
1:07:47consumption um at the same time um
1:07:49including coal um so you know this is
1:07:52not uh uh this this you know decline of
1:07:56of of US power is is number one not a
1:07:59peaceful or inevitable process Um, and
1:08:01number two, I don't think it necessarily
1:08:03portends a better future.
1:08:10>> Amazing. Um, sorry, I forgot my
1:08:13moderation duties because I've been I've
1:08:15been listening so carefully. Okay, we
1:08:17don't have questions from the YouTube.
1:08:19So, unless Niv Niv, do you have any
1:08:21other questions or follow-ups?
1:08:25>> Not really. I think Adam answered most
1:08:27of them. Yeah.
1:08:28>> Yeah, that was fantastic. Well, in that
1:08:30case, we can wrap up here. I'd just like
1:08:31to thank you both so much uh for
1:08:34joining. That was really fantastic. And
1:08:36thank you to everybody um who attended
1:08:39live. The link will be sent out in the
1:08:41newsletter in the coming weeks. Thank
1:08:43you guys so much again for
1:08:44>> Thank you, Alex. Thank you so much, Nie,
1:08:45as well.
1:08:46>> Alex, thanks. Bye.
1:08:48>> Bye.
1:08:53Oh, N is gone.

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