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CrossFitters Who HATE Running Need to Hear This | EP. 231 — Transcript

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0:00All
0:01right, we're 5 years into this podcast
0:03and we finally did it. We got the man
0:05himself, Grimace, from the McDonald's
0:07franchise.
0:09>> Is it your experience that all the
0:10CrossFitters hate run training?
0:12>> I think most of them,
0:13>> but I think you and I would both agree
0:14that given how important running is
0:16overall, not just for placement, but for
0:18the like downstream benefits that you
0:20get from it, it's just something that
0:21they can't ignore inside of training.
0:22So, we start to see things like the ring
0:25muscle [music] up start to develop a
0:27little bit faster because now they have
0:29the ability to create that global
0:32extension pattern through their hip
0:34extension. People that don't have that
0:35running base and they don't have that
0:37sort of like springy step that comes
0:38from running. They just move a little
0:39bit slower through the body weight
0:40movements. Like it seems like gravity is
0:42a little bit heavier for them.
0:43>> Hit us with your 5K
0:44>> 17 flat right now. hit us with your mile
0:46time
0:47>> or 55
0:49>> kind of person that's usually attracted
0:50to CrossFit has this ADHD mentality
0:52whereas running it's predicated on the
0:55long game like you need to take your
0:56time and work on efficiency and work on
0:58economy.
1:00>> All right, Chris, kick us off.
1:02>> All right, we're 5 years into this
1:03podcast and we finally did it. We got
1:07the man himself, Grimace from the
1:09McDonald's franchise
1:12[laughter] is here.
1:15He's been growing his mustache out,
1:17[laughter] but he's looking good.
1:20All right, so we got Coach Ryan.
1:22[laughter]
1:23Adam, are you going to get it on the
1:24rails?
1:25>> I got it. We're good, man. Let him keep
1:27going for a second. All right. So, the
1:28other day me and Ryan were in the office
1:30shooting the sheet and we were talking
1:33about running in the sport of CrossFit.
1:35And in that conversation, I was like,
1:37"All right, well, everybody in this
1:39sport seems to hate running. Uh, no one
1:41wants to hear about uh because we were
1:43talking about how could we spin it into
1:44a podcast. It's like, no one's going to
1:46click on this probably, but when we were
1:50diving deep, it was like, all right,
1:51well, what's some other things that can
1:53connect the dots?" And at some point you
1:54started telling me about how
1:57just by training, running specifically
1:59in sprints, I think is where you took
2:01it, is like the carryover into other
2:03things shows up. And I was like, "All
2:05right, well, let's maybe start there and
2:07then see if through the rest of the
2:09podcast we can get into some of the
2:10other stuff they wouldn't normally want
2:12to hear about." Jump in with the uh
2:14carryover piece.
2:15>> Is it your experience that all the
2:17CrossFitters hate run training?
2:19Um, I wouldn't say that it's my
2:21experience that all CrossFitters hate
2:23run training, but most I think most of
2:25them. Yeah,
2:27>> I think a lot of it's just a discomfort.
2:29Um, the inability to calm their mind
2:32through long training pieces. You know,
2:34if there's one thing we know about
2:36CrossFitters is that they have a little
2:37bit of training ADHD
2:39>> and running often like the shortest
2:41running sessions when you start talking
2:43about the endurance realm of running,
2:45we're talking 40 minutes, like at
2:48minimum of just focusing on that. A lot
2:51of times you can't wear your headphones
2:54as readily because you have to run with
2:56your phone. And if you're running with
2:57your phone, um, you're probably not
3:00running with optimal. You're talking
3:02about people who are like doing this for
3:03real.
3:04>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
3:05>> So doing it for real like competitors.
3:08>> That's what I'm asking.
3:09>> For CrossFit athletes, for a true like
3:11if you're talking about a professional
3:13runner,
3:13>> that's what you were just talking about.
3:14That's why they not taking their phone.
3:16>> Well, that's why they don't take their
3:17phone, right? And so CrossFitters should
3:20also
3:21follow that and not take their phones.
3:24>> No, you lost me. Um, I mean you can tuck
3:26it into your like shorts or something
3:28like that, like if you have a pocket,
3:29but you shouldn't be holding it in your
3:32hand while you're running.
3:33>> Is that something people do?
3:35>> Yes.
3:36>> Oh man, those people are crazy.
3:38>> Usually I see people on the runners with
3:39the phone on the ground next to them and
3:40the headphones still in though.
3:41>> Yeah.
3:42>> But the the thought is that CrossFitters
3:44in general, they like to be probably
3:46overstimulated in their training. They
3:47like to be doing different things. So
3:49the boring monotony and the longer time
3:51domain of running would usually be
3:52something that they would kind of shy
3:54away from. But I think you and I would
3:56both agree that just given how important
3:58running is overall, not just for
4:00placement, but for the like downstream
4:01benefits that you get from it, it's just
4:03something that they can't ignore inside
4:04of training. So
4:05>> say that you've got somebody who is uh
4:08bubble semi-final level, like the kind
4:10of person that's going to go to an
4:11inerson event. They tell you straight up
4:13like, "I don't like long run training."
4:15How do you try and talk them into
4:17including it in their program in a way
4:18that they still stay mindful and they
4:20appreciate the long-term value that
4:21comes out of it?
4:23>> Yeah. So, I mean, I guess the first
4:24thing that I'm doing is presenting them
4:26with the data, right? So, we have years
4:29and years and years of semi-final
4:31regional games tests and we know that
4:34running is going to make up a large
4:36portion of your points and your
4:39opportunity to create points. So, for
4:42that type of athlete, there's just the
4:44simple fact of you have to be good at
4:46this if you want to be able to be
4:48competitive in this realm. Um, as far as
4:52keeping their attention during workouts,
4:55I have largely adopted um there's an old
5:00running coach from somewhere in Eastern
5:03Europe. Um, I don't remember exactly
5:05where, but he his name is Mahaly Igloy.
5:09And so I have adopted a lot of that
5:12style of running for a lot of the
5:14CrossFit athletes. So his philosophy was
5:16that you want to run as fast as possible
5:18as often as possible and manipulate your
5:21training and your rest so that you can
5:25maintain your stimulus to not get
5:27overloaded with fatigue. Right? So you
5:30know like a lot tell me a week as fast
5:33as possible as long as possible is kind
5:34of like I could that's almost a little
5:36bit too open-ended for me. So tell me a
5:38week. What does it look like?
5:39>> So, this would be the way that I'm
5:42thinking about this for a CrossFitter.
5:43Do you want Okay, so for
5:44>> this is that that semi-final level
5:46athlete.
5:46>> Yeah. So, with that athlete, I might
5:48have them run four days a week.
5:51>> One day is going to be fairly easy. Like
5:54just 60 minutes easy. Like I'm thinking
5:57of what I'm doing with Toby right now or
5:59what I was doing with Toby
6:00>> pre-qualifier season.
6:02>> So easy. Um they don't have a heart rate
6:03monitor. What do you say? Conversational
6:05>> conversational pace. You should be able
6:07to be nasal breathing throughout. And
6:09then somewhere in there, we're going to
6:10sprinkle in a couple of strides. So,
6:13>> what's that?
6:13>> 20 seconds of running at maybe 5k to 10k
6:17effort. And then just backing back down
6:19into your easy pace. So, easy pace in
6:21this case is going to be 2 minutes per
6:24mile slower than your 5k pace.
6:26>> But, you'd be okay if somebody just did
6:27that subjectively at the same time.
6:29Like, say they don't have a garment or
6:30they don't know where they're at on the
6:31track. But, it's still, hey,
6:32conversational. uh every every how often
6:34do they do the stride?
6:36>> Uh every 60 to 90 seconds. And we're
6:39just going to do eight of eight of
6:40those. So we're just getting the legs
6:42turning over.
6:42>> So you're just working on stride rate
6:44itself with that.
6:45>> Exactly.
6:45>> Okay. So that's one day of the week.
6:46>> One day of the week. The other day might
6:48be something like a V2 coordination. So
6:52one mile to 3k type effort. We're going
6:55to run 200s at that pace. You're going
6:58to take a 20 second rest. You're going
7:00to run that for six or eight reps at a
7:03time.
7:04>> Then you're going to take a four minute
7:05rest and continue. So in the running
7:08world, we might have them actually jog
7:10the rest. In the CrossFit world, we're
7:11probably having them walk because they
7:13don't have the resiliency to jog and
7:16actively get their heart rate down
7:18enough,
7:18>> their quality is going to come down if
7:20you keep them jogging.
7:20>> Correct. Yeah. Okay.
7:22>> Um and then the third day of the week
7:25would be something like a modified
7:27lactate threshold stimulus. So, we're
7:30actively trying to get them a little bit
7:32more fatigue into their system um and
7:35working on lactate dynamics, but we're
7:37not going to do it in your traditional
7:39running method. So, a traditional
7:41running workout would be five by mile at
7:44your 1 hour pace with a 90 second
7:47two-minute jog recovery. Instead, we're
7:49going to take that as
7:5212 or 14 by 400 meters on a 30 second
7:56rest. So, this allows us to get a little
7:58bit more quality. We're running a little
8:00bit faster and we're taking a static
8:02rest with the CrossFitters again because
8:04we know that if they have to run for
8:07three, four, five straight miles, that
8:09quality is going to deteriorate.
8:10>> Okay. Okay. Hold on. Day one, gotcha.
8:12Day two, gotcha. Day three, explain it
8:14to me like you're going to explain it to
8:16Ronnie from the Jersey Shore.
8:20>> Do you know Ronnie?
8:21>> You don't know Ronnie?
8:22>> Yeah, I don't watch that type of stuff.
8:24So,
8:25>> Okay. Well, um, what do you watch?
8:27>> [laughter]
8:28>> I don't really watch a ton of TV.
8:30>> You were going to explain it to your
8:31mom.
8:34>> All right. So, what we want
8:35>> your mom is also not I'm not trying to
8:37say your mom is like Ronnie from Jersey
8:39Shore. It's just your mom doesn't know
8:40anything about training. No, no, no, no.
8:42She's not. She makes a amazing John
8:44Ballayia. She is very much better than
8:46he is.
8:47Um,
8:50so what I'm trying to get you to do is
8:53run at a pace that is forcing you to
8:56work kind of hard. We want this to be a
9:00pace where at the end of each effort,
9:02you can say a sentence, but not much
9:05more than a sentence.
9:06>> Okay?
9:06>> So, we're running kind of quick, but
9:08we're not putting a ton of strain into
9:11any given effort. So the metric there is
9:13almost like how well you can recover
9:15after the effort is going to gauge the
9:16effort of the interval itself. And then
9:18tell me how that's again go back to day
9:20two. How is that pace a little bit
9:22different than day two which you called
9:23V2 base?
9:24>> V2 base. So V2 base is going to be one
9:28mile to 3k which is roughly 2 miles.
9:32>> Um so those paces are going to be a lot
9:35faster than what we're doing on day
9:38three.
9:38>> Okay. So those those are shorter and
9:40faster. this day is still hard, but I'm
9:42be able to recover in that time domain
9:44to be able to then hit quality in the
9:45next one. So, it's a little bit longer.
9:47>> Might be 5k to 7k effort depending on
9:50the specific athlete and how developed
9:53they are in running.
9:54>> Okay?
9:54>> Right? So, if you're a little bit more
9:56novice in the running world, you could
9:57probably get away with 5k effort because
10:00you just don't have the endurance
10:02profile to run a strong 5k.
10:04>> I see. So, if their running capacity was
10:07bigger, you would have to actually
10:08change that prescription. Correct. if
10:10they were a better runner.
10:11>> Yeah, we have to slow it down a little
10:13bit.
10:13>> Yeah. It's almost like when I try and
10:14write weightlifting for Mike, I have to
10:16dial down percentages so much because
10:18his top end is still so high. Even as
10:20long as he's been training in the sport
10:21and as old as he is, you just have to if
10:23they have that high level capacity, you
10:25can't have them at high percentages of
10:26their effort.
10:26>> And that's one of the reasons why I like
10:28to prescribe as much as possible off of
10:31time domains rather than off of
10:33distances. But I also know that people
10:35have no concept of
10:37>> even if I know that my 5K is 22 minutes,
10:40I have no idea what that means for a
10:4230inut effort. Like it's people really
10:44struggle with that concept.
10:46>> Yeah. And I think that Chris was on to
10:47something there because even a
10:48semi-final athlete who's relatively
10:50experienced in the sport and might even
10:51know paces for 400 meters, one mile, 2
10:54mile, 5K, they
10:55>> they know how to gym, they know how to
10:56tan, they know how to laundry.
10:58>> Yeah, [snorts] GTL. He doesn't know. Um
11:01I don't know where I was going with
11:02that. I got distracted by the Jersey
11:03Shore. Oh, they don't know what their V2
11:06max is. They don't know what their
11:07lactate threshold is. Do you even bother
11:09giving them that terminology or you just
11:10write the session and say, "This is what
11:11I want out of this."
11:12>> Absolutely not. I I'm just giving them
11:14sessions. And I what I I try to do is
11:17have them actually test some of those
11:19paces. So, if I'm working with an
11:22athlete on running exclusively, I want
11:24them doing a tester every six to eight
11:27weeks.
11:27>> Just a pure run based test.
11:29>> Pure runas.
11:30>> Time trial. And usually I'll tell them
11:32not to go to the well. Like if you're
11:34doing a 5K, run it hard and then where
11:37you think you have a finishing kick, I
11:39just want you to say at the 200 meter
11:41mark, I have a kick, but I'm choosing
11:43not to use it.
11:44>> How often do CrossFitters leave that in
11:46the tank?
11:47>> Oh, [sighs] you know, [laughter]
11:48>> I I write that all the time. Never.
11:50>> I write it I write autoregulated
11:52sessions and I always say, "Leave a
11:53little bit in the tank. Leave some
11:54runway that we can build on." and they
11:56very rarely
11:57>> then quickly tell us why it's important
12:00that they leave it in the tank. Make
12:01your case attorney.
12:04>> Well, the main thing that I'm trying to
12:05do in this particular case is by leaving
12:08something in the tank that means that we
12:09can bounce back from the session a lot
12:11quicker and bring quality to a session
12:15sooner than we would if we truly go full
12:18out.
12:18>> But you also probably still found out
12:20what you wanted to find out from that
12:21session without their kick, right? So
12:22the kick doesn't really add too much to
12:24you from an analysis standpoint about
12:25where their capacity is at.
12:27>> Yeah. I mean the kick in a in the case
12:29of a 5k might shave 10 or 15 seconds off
12:34of your time.
12:34>> It might be a couple of spots on a
12:35leaderboard if they're actually racing,
12:37but in terms of like where their
12:38capacity is at like you got enough
12:40information and then we want to make
12:41sure that we're still preserving quality
12:43for the next session. So not digging all
12:44the way in there. Yeah, that makes
12:45sense. I mean, I would almost prefer
12:47that in training we invert it and you go
12:50out of the gates hotter than you think
12:52because when you go to compete, that
12:54happens at every single race in the
12:57CrossFit realm. You don't see tactical
12:59races happening in this. You see people
13:02going full tilt right away and then kind
13:06of crashing and burning through the
13:07middle and maybe hanging on at the end.
13:09>> Yeah. I mean, it's usually the nature of
13:11almost like the ordering of events, too.
13:12like very very frequently the run or
13:15endurance event is placed first. So
13:16everybody's nerves and anxiety is super
13:18high. They feel fresh. They have a hard
13:19time dialing themselves back. So getting
13:21them used to what that feels like is
13:22important. All right. So we talked about
13:24four days of the week. We talked about
13:26three of them. What's the fourth day
13:27look like?
13:27>> So the fourth day I typically try to
13:29keep that as um a quality session where
13:33I'm working on topend speed. Um, so this
13:37might be something like 8 by 100 meters
13:40at your 800 meter pace, but we're taking
13:43>> lots of rest.
13:43>> Lots of rest. My preference is that if
13:46you're in a hilly area like we are here,
13:48you just go out to a hill, run 20
13:50seconds uphill at 800 meter pace. Your
13:53recovery is the full walk down the hill
13:56plus a 10 to 15 second rest at the
13:58bottom to kind of gather yourself. So,
14:01we're really trying to create the
14:04ability to produce speed for some
14:07athletes, which is a rare athlete in the
14:10CrossFit space. We might choose to not
14:12do this and instead add another easy
14:15day. Um, but that is only for athletes
14:19that have elite level top-end speed. So,
14:23we might have them still do four or five
14:25of these, rest a few minutes by two
14:29sets, and just enough to preserve.
14:31>> You're almost protecting them from
14:32themselves. Yeah.
14:33>> Yeah. So, if they have pure top end
14:34speed, we also know that we don't need
14:36and probably don't want to tap into that
14:38too often.
14:38>> Well, think about you, coach Kyle Ruth.
14:42>> How often do you want Kyle Ruth
14:43sprinting at max effort?
14:44>> Very rarely,
14:45>> right? Because
14:47Yeah. Yeah, but like if you or I go
14:50through that where we're a little bit
14:51more blunted,
14:53>> what are you trying to say about me?
14:55>> I don't have Kyle's power.
14:56>> You You don't have the same fast twitch
14:58makeup.
14:58>> Yeah. But what's important with that is
15:00we do need some. So, like you said, it's
15:02not necessarily always taking that
15:03session away. It's maybe trying to get
15:04some in there so that he is resilient
15:06enough to be able to sprint on game day
15:08if he has to.
15:09>> For sure.
15:09>> Yeah. But just not so much that things
15:10actually get compromised from a
15:12connective tissue standpoint.
15:13>> Yeah. And and with that fast twitch
15:15athlete, like I'll want them to start if
15:17they're coming from ground, like from no
15:20back, no base, I want them to start
15:23doing those fresh, but towards the back
15:26end of a cycle, I want them to start
15:28doing that fatigued because I care more
15:31about how their speed plays when they're
15:33tired than I care about how it plays
15:36when they're fresh. Because to date,
15:39we've only seen sprinting, true
15:42sprinting happen at the games level,
15:44>> right?
15:45>> Everything else is more about what does
15:47your finishing kick look like when or
15:50like your ability to preserve speed
15:53under fatigue at regionals.
15:54>> Yeah, that semi-final workout that had
15:56the snatches and I think it was 800
15:58meters. It's still even then that I
16:00wouldn't count that as like a pure
16:01sprint because you can't come out of the
16:02gates hot for a pure 800. And the first
16:04one wasn't
16:06>> it wasn't scored. It was just like you
16:08need to do
16:09>> the max snatch.
16:10>> Yeah. You just need to do it so that you
16:12have enough time to snatch which I mean
16:14if you remember tutor Magda ran like a
16:174minute 800
16:19>> left himself two minutes on the clock
16:20and then snatched like what 310.
16:22>> I think Farlo did the same thing.
16:24>> Yeah. Yeah.
16:24>> I mean they obviously have special
16:26strength profiles
16:27>> and they knew very well what they could
16:28do with the barbell. So, what y'all just
16:31gave or what you just gave us was four
16:32days and that was for the semi-final
16:35level athlete. So, that's like the ideal
16:37package that you created. So, I'm
16:39listening. I'm uh I might not even do
16:41really awesome in quarterfinals. I'm
16:43going to get there, but maybe I do okay,
16:45maybe I don't. Uh and I'm listening to
16:47you. Do am I doing all four days or what
16:50is the how do I maximize what days do I
16:52pick?
16:53>> Yeah. So, realistically, you're going to
16:55do one or two supplemental days. Most
16:58people don't have that kind of time in
17:00their schedule to train four times um or
17:04to run exclusively four times a week.
17:06And like we talked about earlier,
17:08running just takes a long time. So I
17:12tend to gravitate for most CrossFit
17:15athletes towards the speed bias
17:16sessions. Um
17:18>> which ones were those?
17:19>> Those are your hill sprints or your
17:21faster pace running from the fourth day
17:24that we talked about. Um, and then that
17:26second day of kind of V2 max type
17:28coordination where we're manipulating
17:31the rest to where we're not creating a
17:33ton of systemic fatigue. So, you know,
17:35200 meter run, taking a one to one rest
17:39to your work. Um, will allow you to stay
17:44relatively aerobic in your stimulus
17:46while still running very fast.
17:49>> So, this is a quarterfinal athlete.
17:51They're they have no expectations of
17:52going to semi-finals. they are probably
17:54never going to see a test in their
17:56competitive experience that has longer
17:59running in it. You still want to have
18:01them running twice a week.
18:03>> I would say at least once a week. Um
18:06most of the time is if someone comes to
18:10me and they have no ability to qualify
18:12for that. Um
18:14they still have qualities that can be
18:17dramatically improved with faster paced
18:20running. So,
18:23the two main ones that I think about are
18:26the hip extension profile. So, think
18:29about all of the athletes that you've
18:31worked with uh in your coaching career.
18:34How many at the subsemi-final level have
18:37the ability to create true hip
18:39extension?
18:40>> Probably less than 10.
18:41>> Why is that? And why do most people
18:43think they are getting hip extension?
18:45They they probably heard that and said,
18:46"What are you talking about, Willis?"
18:48>> Go ahead. Um, why don't they have the
18:51ability to create hip extension? I would
18:53say because they've never trained it.
18:55Um, or it's been so long since they've
18:58used it. It really is a use it or lose
19:00it type of quality.
19:01>> Yeah, I would say in the sport of
19:03CrossFit, it's assuming that a
19:05quarterfinal level athlete, this is
19:06their sport. Very rarely is something
19:08required of them to hit true hip
19:10extension. And also probably for 80% of
19:12their week, they're sitting in this
19:13position right now.
19:14>> But that's what you're saying. You keep
19:15saying true hip extension where I think
19:17a lot of people are going to hear this
19:18and they're going to be like, "We do hip
19:19extension all the time."
19:20>> Yeah, they do hip extension, but their
19:21hip extension is almost a byproduct of
19:23the movement that happens. So, picture
19:25like a power clean or a power snatch.
19:26They're not thinking about necessarily
19:28extending their hips. They're thinking
19:29about driving their legs down into the
19:30ground and the hip extension happens as
19:32an artifact of that. But what Ryan's
19:33saying is that when you are sprinting
19:35and you're sprinting properly, you are
19:37driving yourself actively in through hip
19:39extension almost through a finish with
19:41your posterior chain, which very rarely
19:42happens in CrossFit,
19:44>> right? And then one of the things that I
19:46have noticed in training athletes as
19:49they do that is we start to see things
19:52like the ring muscleup start to develop
19:56a little bit faster because now they
19:58have the ability to create that global
20:01extension pattern through their hip
20:03extension.
20:04>> It improves their ability to find
20:05gymnastic shapes almost that are like
20:08requisite of I need to be able to create
20:10this arch position. Right. Correct.
20:11Yeah. Which a lot of people would
20:12struggle with. I think honestly it's
20:14probably just like a lifestyle thing and
20:15they're just not used to finding that
20:16position and CrossFit doesn't
20:17necessarily have a bunch of things where
20:19it's like, hey, hip extension is really
20:20going to benefit you. Gymnastics is one
20:22of them for sure, but a lot of people
20:24like they don't even find hip extension
20:25in gymnastics.
20:27>> No. And I it's one of the biggest points
20:29of feedback that I give the bulk of my
20:32athletes on their gymnastics. Like you
20:34get people who can do 15 unbroken strict
20:37pull-ups and then we have them do chest
20:39bar with a butterfly and they're getting
20:4125, right? Like if we have a little bit
20:43more help from the hips, that number
20:45could easily be in the 45 rep range.
20:47>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
20:48>> That makes a huge difference in your
20:50open performance, right? We see
20:52thrusters and chest bar almost every
20:54year.
20:54>> Yeah. So hip extension is one of them.
20:56That's a good like downstream value of
20:58being able to add especially the kind of
20:59run training that you talked about. Um
21:02you and I talked a little bit yesterday
21:03about maybe some other benefits that
21:04would come from just almost like the
21:06volume of bounding that happens with the
21:07running that wouldn't happen anywhere
21:09else inside of their training.
21:10>> Right. So again, quarterfinal level
21:12athlete, we want to try and convince
21:13them that, hey, machines are good. Um,
21:16even the CrossFit stuff is good, but I
21:17think that there might still be an
21:19little extra value for you if you added
21:20the second day of the weekend running.
21:21And here's why.
21:22>> Yeah, the double underbounding mechanics
21:25um
21:27make a huge difference from people who
21:29run compared to people who have no
21:31running background. Like you think about
21:33that really slow ground contact time
21:36that limits people's ability to utilize
21:39elasticity of the ankle um and what that
21:42does to their heart rate and their
21:45breathing when they're in the middle of
21:46a metcon with running or sorry with
21:49double unders rather right
21:51>> um so
21:53>> when we see those athletes consistently
21:55blowing up there's something about the
21:58ability to resist the eccentric force of
22:02double unders of bounding. We see it in
22:04box jumps as well, although that's a
22:05slower movement, so maybe a little bit
22:07less applicable. Um, but they end up
22:12having calf issues. They end up having
22:16um foot like fatigue.
22:18>> Yes.
22:18>> And then the double unders just
22:20completely deteriorate. And that's a
22:23skill that has been tested, I believe,
22:25every year in the open.
22:26>> Mhm. You're going to see that
22:27everywhere. Any online qualifier that
22:29you do, you're probably going to see
22:29that movement. But I would also say that
22:31the people that in my opinion have a
22:33good running base or they have a field
22:36sport background where they spent a lot
22:37of their time or their their athletic
22:38background running, what it looks like
22:40to me is it looks like their feet are
22:42just lighter. It looks like they have
22:43better control and they're able to move
22:44them a little bit quicker. And double
22:46unders for sure, box jumps for sure, but
22:48burpees to me is like I can see their
22:50like the people that don't have that
22:51running base and they don't have that
22:53sort of like springy step that comes
22:54from running, they just move a little
22:56bit slower through the body weight
22:57movements. like it seems like the
22:58gravity is a little bit heavier for
23:00them. And I have seen improvements as
23:02somebody's run volume comes up that
23:04their feet in a CrossFit Mechcon with
23:06these high cycle rate movements, they
23:08look lighter now. And it it's like to me
23:10that's like one of the best arguments
23:11that I could say is like improving your
23:13running capacity and just getting a
23:14little bit more running volume in is
23:16going to improve the sort of like
23:17springy nature to your feet.
23:19>> Yeah. And I think one of the dangers of
23:21just adding in a three-mile easy run
23:24comes where most CrossFitters tend to
23:26have that slow plotting run and you're
23:28just reinforcing
23:30>> the nature of being slow and kind of
23:32stuck to the ground.
23:33>> Yeah, that's why that you're saying it's
23:35important to make sure that they are
23:36touching high stride rate efforts in
23:38their running so that they're still
23:39getting that stimulus out of it and not
23:40just accumulating a ton of slow volume.
23:42>> Correct.
23:43>> Got it. Um so let's go back to the
23:45semi-final level athlete real quick if
23:46you're okay with that. um four days a
23:49week of running. Um which one of these
23:51is the most fatiguing to that level of
23:53athlete?
23:54>> To me, early on the the long run is the
23:57one.
23:58>> So the day one,
23:59>> the day one creates the most fatigue
24:02just because early on they don't have
24:04the mechanical resilience to that. So
24:08over time, yeah, we want to get them up
24:09to 60 minutes, but we might start with
24:1245 minutes,
24:13>> yeah,
24:14>> of total time where we start 3 minutes
24:16of run, one minute of walk, and do that,
24:20you know, 11 times. That's 44 minutes.
24:22you know, we're kind of working through
24:24that type of progression and slowly
24:26lengthening out, creating a little bit
24:29more density, um, and making sure that
24:32they're doing their progression in a
24:36manner that keeps them safe.
24:37>> Yeah. The reason I asked that is because
24:39we're we're here and we're kind of
24:40talking about the benefits of running.
24:42So, there's going to be athletes that
24:43listen to this that might buy into that
24:44and I want them to have a little bit
24:45more information about how the week is
24:47actually laid out to make sure they're
24:48getting the most bang for their buck. So
24:50when I lay out of somebody's week, it's
24:52almost like the priorities come first,
24:54right? Like they come before residual
24:55fatigue or volume happens during the
24:57rest of their training block. And
24:58there's a reason probably why you said
25:00day one is going to be that long one
25:01because that's probably the most
25:03fatiguing one. Is that why we're putting
25:05it there?
25:07>> So I was not putting it necessarily in a
25:09specific order.
25:11>> Just categorizing.
25:12>> So where would that lie?
25:13>> Usually the long run I would want to put
25:16on their active recovery day. So
25:19what we want is for that run to
25:21eventually turn into what is an active
25:23recovery stimulus, which is why we want
25:25to start a little bit more conservative
25:27and build into that. So for let's just
25:29say the typical Monday through
25:31Wednesday, Friday, Saturday athlete,
25:33their long run is going to happen on
25:34Wednesday.
25:35>> Okay?
25:36>> Um I'm probably going to put their true
25:39sprint work on the back end of the week.
25:42So Saturday just because that to me is
25:45the one where
25:47there could be a ton of soreness and
25:50fatigue that gets created from that. So
25:52we're giving them their Sunday off. So
25:56we put it on Saturday as kind of one of
25:58the last things that they're doing in
26:00the week.
26:01>> Um and then the other days are just kind
26:03of predicated on what else is happening
26:07inside of your template.
26:08>> Yeah. What other context there is there.
26:09>> Yeah. Um, another question that I had as
26:12we're going down this line is, so we're
26:15we're starting to get closer to
26:16competition now, whether it's
26:17quarterfinals or semi-finals. Maybe it's
26:19semi-finals where it's a little bit more
26:20likely that they're going to see a mixed
26:21run tester.
26:23>> Now, are you still keeping the run
26:25sessions isolated or are you starting to
26:27mix them into more of a sport specific
26:28format and when does that happen?
26:30>> We start mixing them into run specific
26:32around the turn of the year for that
26:35like semi-final type athlete. Okay. And
26:37what I think about most of the time is
26:39how do I preserve this stimulus and then
26:43leverage that stimulus into the sports
26:46specific realm. So
26:47>> that day is that day's original intended
26:49stimulus from the four days that you
26:50laid out before and then how can I try
26:52and carry that over and still respect it
26:54inside of a sports format. Right? So
26:56give me an example. Give me an example
26:57for day two. This is the V2 day.
26:59>> The V2 day. So we're going to take the
27:01same athlete. We're going to have them
27:02do 200 meters at their 3k
27:06pace.
27:07>> Okay.
27:07>> Um then they're going to go into a
27:103minut AM wrap of something sports
27:13specific. So we've put their heart rate
27:15and their breathing at a pretty strain
27:17level
27:18>> and then we're going to have them do
27:22often times I will have them do more
27:24simplistic things to start, right? We
27:26don't want to jump straight into heavy
27:28clean and jerks and ring muscle-ups. So,
27:30we'll do burpees, wall balls, lunges,
27:34things that are easier to coordinate
27:36with that type of heart rate.
27:38>> And then as the semi-final starts
27:41approaching closer to about 6 to 8 weeks
27:44out is when I want them to start doing
27:47more complex things and then I'll remove
27:50some of the rest. So, the original
27:52example 200 meter run, three minute AM
27:54wrap. We're going to rest two or three
27:56minutes, okay? probably actively on the
27:58echoike um just to help flush some of
28:01the lactate that might have accumulated
28:04um so that they can have higher quality
28:06on their next set. Then as we get closer
28:10that might be 200 m at a similar effort
28:13we'll book in the running. So 200 m go
28:17into something like 10 thrusters at 135
28:20or 95 lbs. 10 bar muscleups, 100 foot
28:24handstand walk back into a 200 meter run
28:26at that same V2. We're still taking a
28:29long time on a 3minut rest so that we're
28:31preserving the ability to create the
28:34speed that we're looking for in this
28:36test so that they can be competitive
28:39um on that semi-final floor. Do you when
28:41you bookend it like that like sort of
28:43that run sandwich? Um do you see
28:45people's run pace drop off on that
28:46second one pretty often after the mix
28:48work
28:49>> when they first get exposed to it?
28:50Absolutely.
28:51>> That's the biggest one for me. It's
28:52almost like anytime that I ask them to
28:54go do something after they do the mix
28:56work where they had to create a ton of
28:57tension. Their ability to find the run
28:59pace afterwards is always always
29:01compromised. It's always slower.
29:03>> Um well, how much of a priority would
29:05you place on that? Do we need to dial
29:06back the endurance work or the mixed
29:08work in the middle? Do we need to
29:09actually change the pace afterwards?
29:13>> So, my priority is making sure that the
29:16quality of the run stays a little bit
29:18high. Um, but at the end of the day,
29:21most of this sport is still not running,
29:24right? So, that work that's happening in
29:25the middle as we're getting closer to
29:27semi-final level or semi-final workouts
29:29needs to take priority.
29:31>> Yeah. And then the run, I'm just ask I
29:34might dial the pace back a little bit um
29:36to something that's a little bit more
29:37applicable inside of the inside of
29:41workouts. But if we're asking you to run
29:44at two mile pace and you run open with
29:47200, you only do three minutes of work
29:50and you can't replicate that pace, odds
29:52are good that that's not your two-mile
29:54pace. Mhm.
29:55>> So that's kind of like the typical trap
29:58that many CrossFitters fall into is, "Oh
30:01yeah, I can definitely run a 6-minute
30:02mile and then you have them go test a
30:04mile and it's a 645."
30:06>> Can we talk about that a little bit? I
30:08was going to ask you, what are the most
30:10important paces for people to know? Like
30:12the ones that if they're going to do
30:13your program or our program, like as a
30:17uh competitive aspiring CrossFitter,
30:19what are the run paces I should know on
30:22the back of my hand?
30:25So, well, YouTube audience, at this
30:27point in the show, I've let you down.
30:29Our camera, that's the wide shot that
30:31you've been seeing, uh, decided to have
30:34a faulty file where the file was
30:36corrupt. So, I don't have that. And then
30:38the reason you haven't seen Adam this
30:40whole time is cuz 5 seconds after I set
30:43up that camera, it decided to autofocus
30:45on Lydia's face. So, for the remainder
30:47of the show, I'm just gonna have an
30:49image of Adam's blurry face to get you
30:52the rest of the way through it. And back
30:54to the show.
30:54>> For me, the mile is probably the primary
30:59one that we want to know just because
31:00it's easy to base everything else off of
31:03the mile, right? So, if you're if you
31:06have a good mile uh time trial, and what
31:09I mean by good is just like a recent
31:12data point, you can base every
31:14>> How important is it that it's recent?
31:16Because you know people get a little
31:17ego. It's like well five years ago I did
31:20this.
31:20>> I like to think about my mile time from
31:22high school.
31:23>> Which was it?
31:23>> I used to be fast.
31:24>> What was it?
31:25>> I mean it was like 522 or something.
31:28>> Um
31:29>> that was back when they measured the
31:30mile differently. [laughter]
31:33>> 1500.
31:34Um, the reason it's important for it to
31:37be recent is that when we're creating
31:42progressions right now, we're trying to
31:44improve you from where you are today so
31:47that you are better prepared for where
31:49you can be in three months. And if
31:52you're always using something that you
31:55used to be able to do or that you think
31:57you can do, then we're altering the
32:00stimulus. So, you're still going to get
32:02better, but you're not necessarily
32:04getting better at the thing that we want
32:06you to get better at.
32:07>> Yeah. Yeah.
32:08>> Which becomes problematic because now
32:11instead of creating, you know, as a
32:13coach, I'm trying to create this more
32:15aerobic stimulus with those V2
32:18coordination days. Now, we're creating a
32:20lactate endurance stimulus. We're
32:22flooding your system. And then when you
32:24come back and do your CrossFit work, the
32:26the quality of your CrossFit work is
32:28going to deteriorate. Um, and then
32:31you're more likely to start reaching,
32:33overreaching, getting overtrained. We
32:35need to take more D loads. And we all
32:38know how much CrossFitters fight that.
32:40So, uh, it's in your own best interest
32:42in many ways to
32:44>> to not Yeah. to work on recent data.
32:47>> And when I do, let's say I haven't done
32:49it in a while and I'm hearing this, I'm
32:50like, "All right, I'll go do my mile
32:51time." Am I going all out or am I just
32:53like going as like where my current
32:56ability is? Did that make sense? Am I
32:59doing the test like go man I'm gonna red
33:01line to try to get my mile time or am I
33:03just like what can you hit without going
33:05crazy?
33:06>> I would want most people to do that at
33:08like 97% effort. So kind of what we were
33:11talking about earlier. I want you
33:12running as though it's an allout time
33:15trial but then maybe in the last lap
33:17instead of dropping that pace let's say
33:19you're running an 8minute mile from a
33:21twominute lap down to a 150 lap we just
33:24hold that two-minute lap. And I just
33:27want you to know and then communicate
33:29whether you actually could drop the
33:31hammer at the end or like go a little
33:33bit faster because you should know like
33:35if you don't have the self-awareness to
33:37know whether or not you could have gone
33:39faster then that in itself is a teaching
33:42moment with cyclical sports is the
33:44ability to pace and understand your body
33:46and what it's capable of doing.
33:47>> Yeah. If you were going to try and give
33:49them a different subjective metric to
33:50do, would you say something like don't
33:53collapse on your back at the end of this
33:54one mile test?
33:55>> Correct. Yeah, like it's okay to bend
33:56over, but it's
33:57>> okay to bend over. It's okay to be out
33:58of breath for a minute or two minutes,
34:00but if you're collapsing on the ground,
34:01you probably emptied the tank a little
34:02bit more than you should, and now we
34:04need to take a couple of days to let you
34:05recover from that. Specifically with
34:07running, like running, I feel like a
34:09true time trial where you empty the tank
34:10at the end is so draining.
34:12>> I for Yeah. For us, that's what I feel.
34:15>> It's so crazy to watch the professionals
34:17do it and they'll run a 1500 and like
34:19310,
34:20>> hands on the knees for 5 seconds and
34:21then they're giving an interview.
34:23>> Yeah.
34:23>> Yeah. That's wild.
34:24>> Can't relate.
34:25um one mile most important data point.
34:28What what would you say is after that
34:30>> or what would you need in addition to
34:31that?
34:32>> So in an ideal world I would want your
34:34400 and your 5K.
34:36>> Yeah, I I when he asked I was thinking
34:38those three and together
34:40>> the 400 shows me what you actually have
34:42as far as topend speed. Even a
34:44relatively deconditioned athlete can run
34:47a fairly fast 400. It's not going to be
34:49your ceiling 400, but you can still run
34:54relatively well. Um, and that gives me
34:58the sense of one, how much top-end speed
35:01do you have, so I know whether or not we
35:03need to prioritize
35:05true speed development and it also kind
35:09of gives me a sense of like how tough
35:11you are. Um, which is very important for
35:14this sport, right? So, if I get somebody
35:16who comes to me with, we'll say, a 92nd
35:19400 because that's exactly a 6-minute
35:21mile or roughly a 6-minute mile.
35:23>> Um, and then they go run a onem time
35:26trial and it's a 615.
35:29>> One, we see that the speed preservation
35:31curve is probably too flat. But it also
35:33shows me that this person needs to learn
35:35how to dig a little bit harder and that
35:37informs how I'm going to program for
35:41them. um as an athlete inside of the
35:43sport,
35:43>> they might see a little bit more of day
35:45four from your original template.
35:46>> Yeah.
35:47>> Yeah.
35:47>> Yeah.
35:47>> And what you said the other one was 5K.
35:49>> The 5K. The 5K gives me a better sense
35:51of your endurance profile. So, um I used
35:55to make the comment all the time when I
35:57was at CrossFit Nola that I could just
36:00roll out of bed at 4 a.m. and run a
36:01sub6minute mile. Um and that doesn't
36:06really give us a sense of how well
36:08conditioned you are. So many athletes
36:11can just kind of fight through it for
36:13six minutes, but when we start asking
36:14you to run a 5K, that's when you see how
36:18much work you've actually done. Have you
36:19done your homework? And
36:21>> are you prepared to deal with this type
36:24of hurt for
36:26>> anywhere from I guess Ricky can run a
36:28sub 17 apparently.
36:30>> Wow.
36:30>> Yeah.
36:31>> Yeah. It's I mean the 5k to me probably
36:34a little bit more so than the mile just
36:35rewards efficiency like pacing for sure
36:38but I think it just rewards running
36:39efficiency and economy more than
36:40anything.
36:41>> Yeah.
36:42>> Um the other thing that we were talking
36:43about before uh in terms of like
36:45>> the addition of or the the benefit of
36:48more bounding work to be able to carry
36:50over to CrossFit. One of the things that
36:52I took away from you a couple years ago
36:53was when you would have people run on a
36:55metronome or even like just stand in
36:57place and walk to this metronome of 180
37:00strides per minute. So,
37:01>> um,
37:02>> that's the thing that goes
37:05>> he just That's really good.
37:06>> Yeah, that's not that's actually Chris
37:07with his mouth right now for anybody
37:09that can't see him. Um, talk to us about
37:11that. Why was that why is that so
37:13important for somebody who is trying to
37:16not only get their running improved, but
37:18also think about economy and efficiency.
37:20>> Yeah. So, when we start talking about
37:22economy and efficiency, one of the
37:24biggest things that we need to assess is
37:27what does your technique look like?
37:28>> Yeah. The 180 for a general group
37:32program or for someone who's running
37:34when I don't actually have eyes on them
37:36will often
37:39help people self-organize into a
37:41relatively high quality running
37:44technique. And generally speaking,
37:46that's going to be more on the lower
37:48half mechanic. So hips down. Um
37:51>> hold on real quick. So when I'm running
37:52to a 180 beats per minute metronome,
37:54what does that actually mean? vis for
37:56the audience if they're trying to
37:57pretend
37:58>> there's one foot strike for every beat
38:00on the metronome. So left is on the
38:04first strike, right is on the second
38:06one. Um and you're just trying to match
38:08that. Um so it's really hard to
38:12overreach when you're at 180 strides per
38:16minute. That's why it's considered the
38:17gold standard. Now it is considered the
38:19gold standard for the marathon.
38:21somewhere in the CrossFit space, we all
38:24decided to latch on to that and think
38:26that that's what we should be doing. If
38:28we watch elite 5k runners, they're often
38:31sitting at 188 to 192 and then their
38:34kick is upwards of 200.
38:36>> Wow.
38:37>> So, you want to have a little bit more
38:40versatility um if you can, but those
38:44guys are also 135 pounds and we're
38:47[laughter]
38:48the smallest male in the sport. I mean,
38:51if we exclude Colton is probably still
38:55195 pounds, right?
38:57>> Yeah. I think that uh maybe like 185 to
39:01190.
39:02>> Colton's not 195 pounds.
39:03>> I don't know how much is, but I just
39:05assume that by his the height
39:07discrepancy between him and the rest of
39:08the field right now.
39:10>> Yeah. I would have said Jay Crouch is
39:11probably like 190ish.
39:13>> Yeah.
39:13>> Yeah.
39:14>> So, I mean, but still like that's a I
39:17mean, it's 50% more mass.
39:18>> Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, the the 180
39:21just the idea of that stride rate being
39:22up that high. It's still not what
39:24professional runners would do. Correct.
39:25But what you do is you use that as
39:27almost like this uh this guardrail that
39:29if you are doing this, it's probably
39:30much much less likely now that you are
39:32overreaching with your stride or that
39:34you're running with bad mechanics.
39:35Correct. Just because they have to keep
39:37that frequency high.
39:38>> Correct.
39:38>> Um so we're developing that type of
39:42efficiency. The other thing that we're
39:44guarding against is when we start seeing
39:46it leak under 164 strides per minute is
39:50when you start kind of getting into the
39:53danger zone based on the research that I
39:55have read of getting injured and having
39:58more stress fractures um shin splints,
40:01things like that.
40:02>> Interesting.
40:02>> So the longer ground contact time often
40:06associated with that overreach. So you
40:08think about the overreach, what that
40:09looks like is a straight knee landing.
40:12So, we're putting a lot of force into a
40:14straight knee, potentially
40:15hyperextending the knee, very minor,
40:17>> and um every single step that we take,
40:22then we're putting or pulling the foot
40:24most likely up. So, we're putting a ton
40:26of stress into the anterior tib. Um
40:29we're also having a lot of that force
40:31work back against us. So everything
40:34that's happening with that overreach
40:36pattern is putting force in the wrong
40:39direction and more into joints than if
40:41we can land with a more vertical shin
40:44and into the muscles.
40:45>> Man, I feel like that's super helpful.
40:47The amount of people that I've tried to
40:48increase the running volume and they
40:50come back with shin splint problems or
40:51like just knee discomfort in general. If
40:53we just try to bring up their stride
40:55rate a little bit more, it's almost like
40:56this protective mechanism as we bring
40:58the volume up over time. That's super
41:00super beneficial for anybody that's
41:01trying to put running into their
41:02training more.
41:03>> For sure.
41:03>> Yeah.
41:04>> Uh yeah.
41:05>> Uh so I was going to ask earlier you
41:08said something interesting to me. You
41:09were talking about at some point you
41:11were talking about you want it to be on
41:12their active recovery day and you said
41:15that initially it they might not be
41:17running at active recovery paces and you
41:19have to work your way to that. Can you
41:21maybe use an example or or just talk
41:23about that phenomena
41:25>> like
41:26why are we trying to or how can you get
41:28someone's ability to increase so that
41:31their new pace is truly active recovery.
41:34>> Did that make any sense?
41:35>> Yeah. So we're going to set the pace at
41:37what should be an active recovery pace.
41:40Um so
41:41>> based off of what?
41:42>> Based off of their 5K.
41:43>> Okay. So we got their 5K. We have an
41:45idea of what we think their active
41:46recovery is at. Now they might not be
41:47there but what you're going to try and
41:49do is work them there. for sure. So,
41:51let's just take an 8 minute
41:54>> five or a 25m minute 5K, which is an 8
41:56minute mile. We're going to have them
41:58run at a 10-minute mile.
42:00>> Okay?
42:01>> They're going to run for 3 minutes, walk
42:03for a minute, and just repeat that. For
42:06most athletes who have not done a ton of
42:08run volume, that's still going to elicit
42:10a big heart rate response, a big
42:12breathing response, and probably not
42:14quite what we can sustain for 40
42:18straight minutes of running. Um, so what
42:21we're trying to do is get them efficient
42:23at that pace.
42:25>> Okay.
42:26>> And we're using the walk as a guard
42:29against
42:31basically putting too much fatigue into
42:33their system.
42:33>> Okay.
42:34>> Um, and then as we build that out and
42:37they're able to slowly lengthen their
42:40work rest ratios, then it starts to
42:44become more comfortable. And then
42:46usually it takes four to six months for
42:50that to be a continuous effort and be
42:53something that they feel good coming
42:55back in the next day if they're running
42:57for 40 straight minutes.
42:59>> Your preference in that is almost to go
43:00from a timebased perspective of 3
43:02minutes on one minute walk. But do you
43:04have people track their heart rates and
43:05if their heart rate gets up above a like
43:07if my heart rate got up above 130 do I
43:09have to walk now?
43:10>> I will do that for some athletes. Okay.
43:13One of the issues that I've run into is
43:16for people who have no running
43:17background, their heart rate spikes to
43:20155, 165 within a minute of running.
43:24>> Yeah.
43:24>> And so it doesn't matter how little
43:27force they're trying to
43:28>> their RP is probably like two or three
43:29out of 10, but their heart rate's in the
43:31150s to 160s.
43:32>> So we almost have to just give them
43:34exposure to it and let the body start to
43:37recognize that this effort isn't a
43:39threat. We don't need that massive heart
43:41rate spike to happen in order to move at
43:46this pace.
43:47>> Okay.
43:48Um yeah, I think the other questions
43:50that I wanted to pick his brain on if Do
43:52you have more?
43:53>> Um so we were talking about quarterfinal
43:55level CrossFit athletes. We talked about
43:57semi-final level CrossFit athletes. Um
43:59there's a lot of CrossFitters in general
44:02who are kind of dipping their toes into
44:03High Rocks now. Mhm.
44:04>> Um, High Rocks has obviously a lot more
44:07emphasis on your run paces where you and
44:09I would probably agree being good at
44:10running inside of CrossFit is a huge
44:12weapon. Um, it's got a lot of positive
44:14carryover to other aspects of the sport,
44:16but now somebody comes to you and they
44:18they have a CrossFit background, maybe
44:20they're probably a better runner than a
44:21lifter, so Hierrox is appealing to them.
44:24What does their template look like in
44:26terms of isolated run sessions versus
44:28fatigued run sessions versus mixed run
44:30sessions with the stations? How do you
44:31set that up that for a Hyroxer?
44:34So, first and foremost, that kind of
44:36depends on how good they are at given
44:39stations. So, we do want to have some
44:41concrete data.
44:42>> Yeah.
44:43>> From either a recent Hierrox, my
44:45preference is to have it on a recent
44:47Hierrox effort. Um,
44:50>> and once we have that data, then we can
44:52kind of make a needs analysis. So,
44:56what I'm doing is where do you want to
44:58be right now in the sport, right? So, if
45:01you're trying to be, let's say, an elite
45:0315 type athlete, which is a huge ask,
45:06like I don't think people really
45:07understand how special those guys are.
45:09>> Yeah.
45:10>> Um, but let's just say that that's where
45:12you want to go. And you come to me and
45:14say, you know, I've got 40 seconds per
45:181k that I need to close the gap on. I
45:20need to close the gap on the sled by 90
45:22seconds. I need to close the gap on the
45:23pole by 3 minutes. So on and so forth.
45:27then I'm probably spacing those out
45:30separately because you're just not good
45:32enough at any of these right now
45:34isolated to compete in a mixed setting
45:39with these guys. So in that case, a lot
45:41of it becomes isolated, right? So
45:45usually if someone's willing to do
45:47doubles, I'll have them run in the
45:50morning or
45:53or do their high rocks, I guess,
45:54depending on what is the priority. So,
45:56if the priority stuff is the stations,
45:58then we're going to be doing more of
45:59that strength stuff, the sled pushes and
46:01pulls in the morning. If the priority is
46:04the running, then we'll put that in the
46:05morning. Um, so those will stay isolated
46:09until about 6 weeks out from the race.
46:12>> And then you start mixing them in like
46:14we talked about before with the
46:14semi-finals.
46:15>> Yeah. Yeah.
46:16>> But those the high rock sessions, I
46:19don't give Hier Rocks athletes static
46:23rest. Like if you're trying to compete
46:26at a high level in that sport, you don't
46:29get to do anything with a rest unless
46:30you're doing partners. If you're doing
46:32pairs, then we're training with a lot
46:34more intensity, a little bit more rest,
46:37and focusing on where can you capture
46:40more time for your team, which when we
46:42break that down, like we can just
46:44immediately scratch off like the farmers
46:47carry has no value. The wall balls have
46:49no value whatsoever for for pairs.
46:52>> Pairs. Yeah. And really the ski urg like
46:55maybe you can shave five seconds for
46:58your team but you can shave a lot of
47:00time on the burpees.
47:02>> You can shave a lot of time on the
47:03lunges by having that swing through
47:05step. Um those are the kind of movements
47:08that we're trying to train with a lot of
47:09power and we're just trying to train
47:11>> your running speed.
47:13>> Yeah. It's interesting to me to think
47:14about it because when you and I think
47:16about running, you know, before we were
47:17introduced to Hier Rocks a couple years
47:19ago, it's we had to have them ready for
47:21a bunch of different styles of running
47:22mixed with a bunch of different
47:23potentially confounding factors. But for
47:25Hierrocks, we know what the distances
47:27are. We know what the demands are. We
47:28know what the data set looks like in
47:30terms of the peer group that they need
47:32to be ready for. And so I was curious to
47:33to ask you that in terms of if a Hyroxer
47:36came to you, how do their data points
47:38need to compare to a CrossFitter who
47:40might need to run a 5k, they might need
47:41to run 400 meters or they might need to
47:43run 800 meter repeats with clean and
47:44jerks, right?
47:45>> Yeah. Um, so I want High Rocks athletes
47:48to have a flatter speed preservation
47:50curve. So I want their 10K to be closer
47:53in pace per mile to their 5K than I care
47:56what a
47:57>> CrossFit athlete looks like.
47:58>> Yeah. Um, the exception to that might be
48:02at the games level, but even then, I
48:05mean, we've only seen
48:0710k of running happen a couple of times
48:09at the games.
48:11>> Um, most of the time it's more in like
48:145k type effort or type range.
48:17>> Yeah. Um, so they you need to be more
48:20efficient in the time domain that you're
48:22going to compete in most frequently
48:25where Hierox athletes I mean the pace if
48:28they don't have too many in the United
48:30States but a 15k race is almost like the
48:34optimal
48:36race for you to run and test in
48:38isolation to understand what you're
48:39capable of holding in a high rocks race
48:42>> just in terms of comparing time domains.
48:45>> Yeah.
48:45>> Yeah. I mean, that's I ran a 15K
48:49like three months prior to
48:53doing the Atlanta Hierros last year and
48:57I think my pace was almost identical.
48:59>> Pace per 1K was the same.
49:00>> Pace perk was almost identical.
49:02>> Yeah.
49:02>> Um the stations obviously didn't go
49:05super great for me.
49:06>> What?
49:07>> Yeah, it was it was only like three.
49:10[laughter]
49:10>> The rope pole was the one that I
49:12remember.
49:12>> Yeah. [sighs] Yeah. I was sad.
49:14[laughter] Hey, speaking of some of
49:15those paces, I just realized I'm doing
49:17very bad podcast hosting duties. And
49:19I'll probably trim this out and put it
49:20at the front, but people know that
49:22you've been here almost 10 years. They
49:24know you work in CrossFit for us doing
49:26uh you have semi-final level athletes.
49:28They know that you work with some of our
49:30games level athletes doing their run
49:32training. But why should they listen to
49:34you? Let's flex on these fools. What Big
49:38R can do. Hit us with your 400.
49:41>> Oh, I haven't run a four. I I would
49:43expect that to be right at 60 seconds
49:45right now.
49:46>> Hit us with your 5K.
49:47>> That's what we need. That's the flex.
49:49>> I think the 5K would be about 17 flat
49:52right now.
49:53>> Hit us with your mile time.
49:55>> 455.
49:56>> Hit us with your best marathon.
49:59>> 24850.
50:00>> Hit us with your best high rocks.
50:03>> 72 minutes flat, I think.
50:05>> Hit us with your McDonald's order.
50:08>> Oh. Uh double quarter pounder.
50:11>> Nice.
50:12>> With cheese. Yeah. Nice.
50:13>> Yeah. All right. Cool. I'll put that at
50:15the front.
50:17>> Nice.
50:18>> Um I do have one more question. Uh do
50:20you have anything else?
50:21>> No, I'm good.
50:22>> Okay, Ryan, have we missed anything? I
50:24know we could talk about form and stuff,
50:26but that doesn't translate really in a
50:28podcast setting. Fair.
50:29>> So, maybe we could do something on the
50:31side. But my last question, this is very
50:33important. Uh we went out to the track
50:35one day and me and Mike ran a It was
50:38part of a camp, right? We did 600 meter.
50:41What what was it?
50:42>> I think it was uh 3k time trial in the
50:44first 600 meters was its own score.
50:46>> Yes. So, you know, I'm out there just
50:48kind of Mike's like, "Hey, you want to
50:49do this with me?" I was like, "Sure."
50:51So, you know, I got the Crocs on and I
50:52beat Mike in a 600 meter, whatever he
50:54just said. What does that say about me
50:56or what does it say about Mike? Go
50:58ahead. [laughter]
51:00>> Do I have to answer that?
51:01>> You do.
51:02>> Um,
51:04I don't know. What does it I really
51:06don't know. I mean, I think you're a
51:09better runner than you give yourself
51:10credit for. So,
51:12>> but I don't do I don't do no prep.
51:14>> I'm just do no prep.
51:16>> Yeah. I mean, Mike wasn't doing anything
51:17either for it.
51:19>> Chris is very good. Very, very good at
51:22coming out hot.
51:24>> He is world class at coming out hot,
51:26specifically when he's got a Slipnot
51:28costume on.
51:28>> It was Slipnot, right?
51:30>> Yeah.
51:30>> Yeah, it was Slipnot. That video, you
51:32can see Chris come through the door and
51:34scare the absolute out of my dog.
51:36He was like a [laughter] puppy at the
51:37time.
51:39>> That video is not public anymore.
51:41>> Oh, no. [laughter] That's a classic. We
51:43got to bring that back. No, I So, yeah.
51:45No, he's just really good at coming out
51:46hot. That's what that says.
51:48>> What was your 3K time?
51:49>> But I mean, hey, uh, the 3K time.
51:52>> Did you finish?
51:52>> Yeah, I finished. I I mean, I didn't
51:54even remember that was a thing. All I
51:56knew is I beat Mike. [laughter]
51:57Yeah, there were some people struggling
51:59who went real hard on that 600 on
52:01>> the first part.
52:02>> Kaden was one of them.
52:04>> Yeah. Uh, who was chasing him down? Was
52:06it Liisa?
52:07>> No, there's somebody that was chasing
52:08him down at the end. I forget. Might
52:10have been Nicole,
52:12>> maybe.
52:12>> Yeah,
52:13>> whatever.
52:14>> Kaden. He's a pacer.
52:16>> Fits his personality.
52:18>> Final question. Do you think that
52:21people's mentality around uh I hate
52:24running is part of the problem? Like
52:30>> you could convince them that hey listen
52:32to this podcast here's all the benefits
52:33you're going to get from it is is just
52:35feel like I feel like people have that
52:37with certain things. Is that just
52:39>> why?
52:40>> I think that people's mentality impacts
52:43their performance on almost every aspect
52:45of fitness racing. Right. So, anytime
52:49you're complaining about anything, you
52:50have a negative attitude and you're not
52:52in a position of preparing yourself to
52:55perform as well as possible. So, you're
52:58focusing on things that you have no
52:59control over and as soon as you start
53:03complaining about that, you've almost
53:04lost autonomy within your race um or
53:09workout. So yeah, I mean I think that
53:12that has a big opportunity or a big a
53:16big impact on people and I think that
53:18you as an athlete have an opportunity to
53:20kind of flip that on its head and think
53:22about it as an opportunity to get better
53:24rather than
53:26kind of like this thing that you have to
53:28do that's been forced upon you because
53:31at the end of the day, no one made you
53:32do this sport. like you chose to do it
53:35and if you want to get better, these are
53:37the things that you need to do in order
53:39to get better.
53:40>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you said it
53:42really well there. You also said it
53:43really well earlier in terms of the kind
53:45of person that's usually attracted to
53:46CrossFit has this ADHD mentality that
53:48they got attracted to this because it
53:50wasn't long and boring and monotonous.
53:52They got attracted to it because they
53:53could work on things that they don't do
53:55all the time and see immediate progress
53:56and gratification out of it. Whereas
53:59running run training done well is necess
54:02like it's predicated on the long game.
54:04Like you need to take your time and work
54:05on efficiency and work on economy. And
54:07that might have been what they were
54:08trying to get away from when they walked
54:09into the CrossFit gym.
54:10>> For sure.
54:11>> And and if you're just doing it for
54:12life, that's great. But if you're
54:13saying, "Hey, I want to compete."
54:15>> Now we're talking.
54:15>> Exactly. Exactly.
54:16>> I mean, I also have noticed for myself
54:19like coming back into things with a
54:20little bit more intensity. the feeling
54:23of panic has deteriorated quite a bit
54:26>> from your run work
54:27>> from from the time that I've spent
54:29running. So like I'm looking around when
54:31we're doing those coach sessions and
54:33watching everybody else's faces get very
54:35expressive and very pain oriented and I
54:39just don't have that same sensation.
54:42Maybe I am looking
54:43>> I think it's just hidden behind the
54:44mustache now. It's [laughter] still
54:46there.
54:47>> Competitive advantage.
54:49Uh,
54:49>> no. You're very stoic by nature, but it
54:51also I think that your relationship with
54:53pain has changed dramatically from your
54:55experience running.
54:56>> Yeah.
54:56>> How long did you take the time to focus
54:59on the running?
55:00>> How many years was that?
55:02>> 2019, right before the open is when I
55:05hurt my back.
55:07>> That was the switch.
55:08>> Well, the the idea was that I was going
55:09to go train for a half or train for a
55:1210K and then I would just be back to
55:14doing CrossFit sometime in July or
55:16August. and my back still wasn't
55:19cooperating. So then pivoted to a half
55:21marathon and then I was just like full
55:23pivot going into the into the marathon.
55:27Um I was told that after my half
55:30marathon I was like I want to try and
55:32qualify for Boston and I was told that I
55:34would need at least six or seven years
55:36worth of time um to be able to qualify
55:41for that. So I needed to be ready to
55:43give that type of effort. So here we are
55:46six years later. I've run Boston,
55:48qualified for it four times. I think
55:51>> it didn't take six or seven years.
55:52>> It did not take six or seven years. Now,
55:54>> screw whoever said that.
55:55>> Now, I know you do a lot of things to
55:58work on aerodynamics when you're running
56:00and such. Have you ever thought about
56:02shaving the chest hair? I know you got a
56:04lot of chest hair. Do you think if you
56:06shave the chest hair, you would get like
56:07a little better time?
56:09So, I actually did research into this
56:11[laughter]
56:13and it doesn't make enough of an impact
56:14on aerodynamics to make it worth.
56:17>> Oh, I want to see.
56:18>> But it does it does make some
56:19difference. Chest hair while running.
56:21>> Um,
56:22>> the volume this man's got volume of
56:24chest. He's like me.
56:24>> So, it was all it was like all hair like
56:27hair.
56:27>> Oh, they looked at it from like uh women
56:31doing more like closecropped haircuts,
56:34men shaving like it's not like swimming
56:36where that really makes a huge
56:38difference. Yeah,
56:39>> it's I mean the the amount that they
56:42measured was like basically insificant
56:45>> but not totally insificant
56:46>> but not totally.
56:47>> You might consider it still
56:49>> but not zero. [laughter]
56:50>> Hold on. I did a pump I did a big pump
56:52fake because now I got a another
56:53question for you then we can end it
56:55maybe.
56:56>> What are the most annoying things when
56:59you're working with people who are who
57:00say that they want to get better at the
57:03sport? They say they want to get better
57:04at CrossFit. So you're giving them the
57:06run stuff. What are the things that come
57:08up that are just like as from the coach
57:10perspective where you're just like, "Oh
57:11god, enough with this." Like they're not
57:14getting it.
57:16>> Choosing not to run because of the
57:18weather. It's too hot. It's too cold.
57:21>> It's raining.
57:22>> It's raining.
57:22>> I might melt.
57:24>> Yeah. You're going to sweat. Just run.
57:26Run in the rain. It's going to be fine.
57:28Like if if it's too cold, like we sell
57:31sweatshirts. There's a few right there
57:32behind you. Buy one. finding excuses to
57:36get out of their running.
57:37>> Yeah. Like it training in general should
57:40not be something that only happens when
57:42everything is perfect.
57:43>> Yeah.
57:44>> And that is not just with running, but
57:46you just need to be willing to have some
57:50imperfections because racing and
57:53competing is sloppy and training by
57:56nature has to be.
57:57>> Yeah. I would say um it's an inability
58:00or maybe an unwillingness to stick to
58:02the paces because like Ryan was talking
58:04about, usually when you try and lay out
58:05somebody's week, you have a very
58:06specific stimulus that you're trying to
58:08accomplish. And if you've got a long
58:10volume build and they went a little bit
58:12too fast and they compromise their
58:13fatigue and and recovery going into the
58:15next day, that's a problem and I see it
58:17a lot. Similarly, if I ask them to hold
58:19really hard paces because we're on our
58:21day three session and I want this to be
58:23spilling you over and they pull back a
58:24little bit because they didn't feel like
58:25they got enough recovery. I see that a
58:27lot too. And so, I think it's important
58:29to understand that with running
58:30specifically, hitting those paces is one
58:32of our few chances to actually make sure
58:34that we're hitting the stimulus inside
58:35of our training week and trying to stick
58:37to those as often as possible is
58:39obviously the gold standard. But I think
58:41a lot of CrossFitters have a hard time
58:42with that.
58:43>> Yeah. And I think one of the things that
58:44both you and I like to use cyclical
58:46things for is like that's the easiest
58:48way to actually move the physiological
58:50needle because CrossFit is too
58:54um slow with transitions like where we
58:57don't keep your heart rate elevated the
58:59whole time to muscle endurance limited
59:01to strength limited in the metcons and
59:03in the sport itself. So to move your
59:06>> energy systems profile we have to use
59:10those cyclical elements.
59:11>> Yeah for sure. Cool. Cab's here. All
59:14right. You know what that means? It's
59:15time we finally have to go. Thanks,
59:17Ryan.

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