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Courage & Decency: The Story Behind a Story (Gabriela Sperl, & Pav Gill) | DLD Summer — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:15thank you so much for having us here
0:18um
0:18steffi is always
0:21bringing together everyone from
0:23everywhere
0:25and
0:26this is also where
0:28i
0:29met marcus brown at dld
0:32and
0:33i was
0:35also impressed by
0:38this german fintech company digital
0:43the future
0:44so everyone i didn't really understand
0:46what it was all about but
0:49it was very impressive and
0:53then
0:55all of a sudden
0:57a
0:58newspaper started to write
1:01german newspapers
1:03were still hailing the company
1:06the financial times
1:08was
1:09saying that their
1:11crooks and that there were
1:14things going on behind the scenes
1:17and
1:19when i read these articles i was
1:20wondering what's going on here is it
1:24the rivalry between two countries what
1:27is it
1:28and then all of a sudden
1:31this wonderful company
1:33crashed
1:35and
1:36then
1:37being a filmmaker
1:40i went to my friends at sky and at ard
1:45and
1:47i walked in the door and there were
1:51people there julia she was executive
1:54producer
1:55and uh yes yeah it's it's true you
1:58walked in the door into the door with an
2:00incredible idea with an incredible
2:01energy and as often is the thing uh with
2:05these things um
2:06sometimes you know someone's failure or
2:08someone else's success and and we got
2:10lucky because you created a beautiful
2:12film and um it was just so that at sky
2:15we were looking at launching our own
2:16original
2:18documentary channel and this was our
2:20first original documentary which we're
2:22very proud of thanks to gabriela and she
2:25always came in with a very different
2:27point of view so rather than focusing on
2:31what exactly had happened and
2:33who was responsible here in germany we
2:35always were incredibly interested in who
2:38was who was behind it all bringing them
2:41down who were the critics and you shown
2:43a spotlight on it
2:45thank you very much and
2:47since we're sort of only a small
2:51audience here
2:53i also want to mention
2:56benji and jonah bachmann the one is in
2:58tel aviv the other is in vienna
3:01those were the directors the young
3:03directors of this film who can't be here
3:05today and i want to mention
3:08who was executive producer with me
3:12and we were literally
3:14fighting for nine months to get this
3:17show done and
3:20covet
3:22in a covert situation so we would like
3:25to show you
3:26just an introduction
3:30so how how is this possible how was this
3:34possible
3:35i think
3:36looking back to it a year after that
3:39they crashed
3:42and a year after the pandemic started i
3:45think it is
3:47very important that we all
3:50concentrate on a shift in mindsets
3:54that there is a
3:56paradigm shift
3:58that post-pandemic
4:01i think none of us can go back to
4:04pre-pandemic times
4:06i think there has to be a new normal
4:10for all of us
4:11personally
4:13business-wise
4:15and as a society
4:17and this is also what what stephie just
4:20said it's very important that we look at
4:22these things from a different angle
4:25um i think
4:27the new normal
4:29is
4:31for me personally i think it's a process
4:34of healing it's a process of
4:38of
4:40concentrating on decency on fairness on
4:44gender equality on participation
4:49and on ethics in business
4:52and
4:53i think if we're talking about ethics in
4:56business
4:58we all need role models
5:02and
5:03role models play a very important role
5:06and we need we need gatekeepers to let
5:09these role models come in
5:12and
5:13this is where i come to
5:16the main protagonist of our film
5:20and that is pavkgill who unfortunately
5:25can't be here today because he's in
5:27bangkok and their travel restrictions
5:30and quarantine and everything so so i'm
5:34glad path at least
5:35to see you virtually we've gotten so
5:39used to it but i find it very nice to
5:41see people to see an audience to
5:43actually be here with other people
5:46so pav
5:47hello from us here
5:49and
5:50we're happy to welcome you
5:55hi hi gabriella hi everyone
5:57hi hi pav
5:59um
6:00path you were so proud to work for a
6:03german company
6:05uh you were the eyes and ears for
6:08wirecard as a senior legal counsel
6:12where you were the eisen ears on the
6:14grounds in asia
6:17to
6:18protect wirecard's interests
6:21and
6:22suddenly the world cracked what happened
6:27i think that's a
6:29question we're all still trying to
6:30figure out
6:31what exactly happened and why did it
6:34happen
6:36i mean like what you said it was
6:38supposed to be a german company you know
6:40the german branding is very
6:42uh well known for doing things the right
6:44way as the leader of the eu some you
6:47know some would argue
6:49and uh it's it's just got a reputation
6:51of you know having colleagues who are
6:54ethical who operate based on trust
6:57um and and
7:00you know no one would have expected
7:02um a listed german company was 24
7:05billion euros
7:06uh
7:08to
7:09have been a criminal enterprise it took
7:12everyone by shock and it it's shaken me
7:14myself as you know
7:17my family my friends everybody and i'm
7:19pretty sure the german
7:21republic as well
7:23as to what happened here
7:27so so how did you find out
7:29things were going wrong
7:34within two to three weeks of joining the
7:36company things didn't really make sense
7:38i mean you have people who are hired
7:41such as ido cornea and
7:44whose cv didn't add up but yet he was
7:46given you know total control of finances
7:49spanning from south america all the way
7:51to new zealand
7:52uh
7:53and this guy didn't have at least on the
7:55surface of it the the relevant
7:58experience
7:59and you know everyone was afraid of him
8:02um but yet on the other hand
8:03structurally things didn't add up like
8:05why
8:06if the company is worth so much money
8:08does it have to always back
8:11headquarters for even a simple thing
8:13such as wages every month
8:15something doesn't really you know make
8:17any sense and and my job was to
8:21protect the company um as the senior
8:24legal counsel the sole one
8:26in munich i mean in singapore in asia
8:29actually uh looking after 11 markets um
8:32i wanted to find out what was happening
8:34you know
8:35why are things the way it is are they
8:38integration issues uh cultural issues uh
8:43or you know what's going on and
8:44eventually you know things added up and
8:47an internal whistleblower came to me uh
8:50in confidence as the movie would get
8:52into detail with and that's where
8:56we realize that you know it's not
8:58integration issues it's not cultural
9:00issues it is
9:01a full-blown fraud that's happening
9:04and you your first idea was that you
9:07turned to munich you turned to asham to
9:10tell them
9:11that something really bad was going on
9:14in asia because you still thought
9:17that
9:18germany would fix it
9:21yes uh
9:23yep that's right so
9:25you know right away like within minutes
9:28of ending the meeting with with the
9:29whistleblower uh who came to me
9:32i was on a phone call with munich legal
9:35and telling them guys this is what's
9:37happened i think
9:38you know we need to fix this
9:40my initial thought was is it just a few
9:42bad apples in the company like uh you
9:44know particularly ido the finance team
9:46or just some other bad actors
9:49and i genuinely thought that
9:51uh
9:52reporting this right away to munich
9:54would set us on the right path to uh you
9:57know fixing those issues
10:00so then you found out
10:02that munich took over the investigation
10:06and
10:08for you it was then clear that the
10:10culprits were sitting in ashram
10:16yes it was very disappointing because
10:18you know a lot of the evidence that we
10:19came across was purely objective in the
10:22sense that you had people transferring
10:24monies from corporate bank accounts uh
10:26to their personal bank accounts you had
10:28emails from themselves with logos of
10:30fake uh you know third-party companies
10:33we had no legitimate interest with
10:35and those same logos were being used to
10:38create invoices for example that looked
10:41exactly like the wirecard invoices
10:43monies were moving uh you wouldn't pay
10:45500 000 euros
10:47for a malaysian market intelligence
10:49report in malaysia for example
10:52uh
10:53and a lot of these things left back or
10:56fingers were pointing towards
10:58instructions from
10:59you know higher-ups in the munich all
11:01the way to the board so when the board
11:03took over the when the board eventually
11:05found out they wanted to
11:08you know take over the investigation
11:10from my understanding marcus braun was
11:12very unhappy that
11:15his time was being wasted on 30 40
11:17million euro
11:19issues and and jan marselag was upset he
11:22said asia is my
11:24my own crown i created this place why
11:26did i not know what's going on uh let's
11:29find a way to to shut this down and he
11:31wanted to take over the investigation
11:34and
11:35we were upset and you know
11:37emails were sent saying
11:39you can't have people
11:42who are persons of interest investigate
11:44themselves
11:45uh and that's where
11:47you know things went downhill pretty
11:50quickly uh at least on a personal and
11:52professional front
11:53so
11:54you were told to shut up and
11:58go on with what you were doing
12:01and to look away but instead
12:05you had the courage
12:08to go on you had your mother helping you
12:13which i think
12:15was was very important for you and uh
12:19we interviewed her and she's a wonderful
12:21person so i think she she's also a great
12:25believer in decency
12:28uh so she was a great help to you
12:31um but where did you take the courage
12:34to to just
12:36go just go on with it
12:40i think courage has always been
12:42something
12:43that's been innate uh you know my mom's
12:46a single parent
12:47uh we grew up
12:49in very challenging ways and a sense of
12:52justice and wanting to do right was
12:55always instilled at least in me
12:58as a person who was pretty much tired of
13:00seeing wrongdoing
13:02happening tired of seeing trust being
13:04abused all the time and
13:06you know the way wirecard behaved
13:08towards me
13:10uh
13:11during the last few months as well as
13:13after i left the company
13:16and then seeing what
13:18you know health impact it had on my mom
13:20as well uh
13:22i decided that okay
13:24enough is enough and we need to really
13:26expose this uh criminal enterprise
13:30they they threatened
13:33to kill you by telling you to go to
13:36jakarta
13:37and
13:38what kept you from going there
13:42well my mom pretty much said that she's
13:45going to keep the passport and i'm not
13:47going to find it but i think
13:49there were also two calls from munich
13:52anonymously telling me that they
13:53understand i'm trying to go to i'm being
13:55sent on a business trip to jakarta
13:58and they strongly advise that i do not
14:01go because in you know and also ido ido
14:05was back having gone underground for a
14:07while in the us during the investigation
14:09phase and he was back and he was you
14:12know constantly reminding everybody as
14:14to how he's married to a drug dealing
14:16family in jakarta
14:17and uh
14:19you know saying that wirecard has been
14:22and i quote like he said wirecut has
14:24been known to make people troublemakers
14:26disappear
14:28and he also said but you have nothing to
14:30worry about right
14:31and you know in the kind of way where
14:34it is definitely an implied threat and
14:37when you see a business trip with no
14:38legitimate purpose being set up and
14:41people telling you that you have to go
14:44even if it's
14:45next week two weeks later or two months
14:47later and on top of that you're getting
14:50uh tip-ups from munich that's that's
14:53when you know that you know
14:55all rules of fairness all rules of
14:58ethics
14:59right you know just
15:01the whole management process has failed
15:03and these guys will not stop
15:06in wanting to get rid of you because you
15:08are the last man standing
15:11so that was that was very very um
15:15very challenging for you to just keep on
15:18doing the things you were doing
15:20um
15:21what do you think i mean it was not not
15:23just only a fraudulent criminal
15:26enterprise
15:28wirecard i mean there had been warnings
15:33from many people going on since 2010
15:37which we know now
15:39for well over ten years people had been
15:42reporting people had been
15:44filing
15:46the munching stats and well shafts and
15:48telling them to do something against
15:50wildcard
15:52why do you think that
15:55neither the regulators nor the auditors
15:58i mean they were paid by a card so you
16:00can say they didn't want to look so they
16:02didn't look
16:04but why did
16:05why did the prosecutors and why didn't
16:07the regulators look i mean we're in
16:09germany so
16:10so one would expect that
16:13these institutions
16:16would be working
16:20this is i think the most shocking aspect
16:22of everything if you watch the movie
16:26uh you would see how so many attempts
16:29were made and what in the end happened
16:31was
16:32the people trying to expose the company
16:34ended up being the ones being
16:35investigated and if you are in a
16:37situation where you are up against not
16:39just a 24 billion
16:41euro giant but also against institutions
16:44who for who all at least you know prima
16:46facie appeared to be protecting these
16:49companies this company then you know
16:51that this is a battle that
16:53is just not your usual exposing of a a
16:56standard fraudulent company i have no
16:59idea why munich prosecutors didn't react
17:02they were given the same dossier
17:04as uh the ft were given
17:07but it's just sad and just even now
17:10reflecting on it
17:12it was the journalists that ended up
17:14doing their jobs it was the journalists
17:16that ended up doing the jobs not just of
17:17the prosecutors but of baffin um of
17:20whoever else is meant to be looking at
17:22these things and
17:24why that has happened i have no idea but
17:26i hope that the parliamentary inquiry or
17:29or the the many good people that remain
17:32in power
17:33can figure it out and put an end to it
17:37yes that's what we all hope
17:39also for the sake of germany that people
17:43can look at germany and not say germany
17:46has become a country where these things
17:48can happen like
17:50dieselgate happened and other things
17:52happen here they happen everywhere but
17:55as you said you are proud to work for a
17:57german company because allegedly they
18:01are
18:01decent and totally different
18:04so do you think it's also to do with
18:06national and international that you have
18:08national regulators and international
18:11companies do you think that
18:13helps people to do these kind of things
18:16more easily
18:19no i think it really boils down as to
18:22wanting to do the right thing and that's
18:24just the moral compass at the end of the
18:26day
18:27it is not something that's restricted to
18:30individuals or employees it is something
18:32that's which you know also expanded
18:35towards regulators uh governments and
18:37enforcement agencies
18:39i do not think any excuse
18:42can be proffered in this case it was a
18:45failure on multiple grounds
18:47and just just going back to your point i
18:49do not feel that this
18:51wirecard incident should reflect
18:54permanently like a stain on on the
18:57german republic because you know there
19:00are many many good
19:02hard-working honest individuals there
19:05and and wirecart should not
19:08you know tarnish that reputation so i
19:10still have full confidence and you know
19:13in in instances like that
19:16where problems happen where
19:18agencies have failed where you know laws
19:21have failed
19:23this is usually the way for
19:26a country or jurisdiction to say that
19:28okay
19:29this has happened but it will never
19:31happen again and this is why so
19:34i think the whole world at least in
19:36in where i am
19:38are waiting to see whether you know
19:40finally uh the right thing would be done
19:43and whether it would repeat again
19:46yes we i think we're all looking forward
19:48to this and hoping for this
19:50and uh thanks to
19:52to the press thanks to
19:54uh people like us who are allowed to
19:57make films about it
19:59and thanks to whistleblowers
20:02these things can hopefully and
20:04ultimately be resolved whistleblowers
20:06have been attacked
20:08over the last years and
20:11some whiffle blowers are really sort of
20:14been kept
20:15in prison like
20:19huge criminals i think
20:21whistleblowers have a huge moral
20:24um
20:25moral task
20:27what what are the tools that as a
20:30whistleblower you can
20:32you can use to
20:34and to to go forward
20:39i think the only main tool
20:41uh you know
20:43other than you know things like courage
20:45and and wanting to do the right thing
20:47the one
20:49power that whistleblowers have is the
20:51truth
20:53if you have the truth it's objective
20:55then
20:56you know people always ask me do you
20:58live in fear do you not fear that you
21:00have now come out
21:02and
21:03my response nowadays is that if you have
21:06the truth then why are you the one
21:08living in fear
21:09it should be the people who are
21:11committing those crimes who have
21:13committed those crimes or you know
21:15continue to do so that should be living
21:17in fear they they need to be wondering
21:19whether the next day
21:20uh enforcement agencies are going to
21:22come knocking down
21:24you know their doors they are
21:25in their homes or raiding the company
21:28so if you have truth you have that
21:31courage
21:32and you have the determination to want
21:34to do the right thing then
21:37it's it's a decision you have to make
21:38for yourself
21:41so what what advice would you give
21:44to people that
21:47that are in a similar situation as you
21:50have been
21:54the advice i can give is
21:56listen to
21:57yourself
21:59you know weigh the situation uh
22:02do you really want to go down this path
22:04because once you do there's no turning
22:06back from it
22:07uh
22:08but yes if you have a very strong moral
22:11compass if you have a company that has
22:14gone out of its way to try to destroy
22:16you
22:17and and people that you know
22:20then
22:22you should just do the right thing
22:25thank you so much puff you're a
22:26wonderful role model for all of us
22:28julian
22:30absolutely um thank you so much pav
22:33i don't know if you can tell me yes uh
22:35it was wonderful to work with you and
22:37you are one of our modern you know true
22:39heroes and uh
22:41very happy that you um that you're part
22:43of our little family now
22:46thank you yes thanks so much and thank
22:48you dld for having us
22:51thank you
22:59[Music]
23:09you

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