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Conversatorio virtual: Crítica marxista de la economía mundial en tiempos de coronavirus — Transcript

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0:01Well, good afternoon, good morning to
0:03everyone. Uh, we are going to start a
0:07discussion group for the CLACSO working
0:09group on crisis and the world economy.
0:13Uh, we are all members of the working
0:16group, uh, which we have been working
0:19in for several years now from a
0:21critical perspective on the world
0:24economy. Uh, we are starting this
0:26series of discussions. We hope to be
0:28able to do several more. Uh, and well,
0:33the idea today is for all of us to be
0:35able to chat and debate about the world
0:38situation, the crisis we are living
0:41through, and above all, how this crisis
0:44is being updated in these times of the
0:47coronavirus pandemic and a health
0:50crisis that we are also experiencing,
0:52especially in our countries. So, we
0:57hope to be able to continue with these
0:59talks. This is going to be the first
1:01one. We have been engaged in collective
1:05reflection for several years, as I said
1:08, in the GT at CLACSO, which has given
1:10us the possibility to meet and work
1:12from this critical perspective on the
1:15world economy. So we have been
1:18analyzing what is happening in the
1:20world economy and its crisis for some
1:22time now. Part of what we have been
1:25doing is reflected in a monthly
1:27newsletter we have, called "Nuestra
1:30América 21: Desafíos y perspectivas,"
1:33which we also publish through the
1:35CLACSO website and distribute through
1:37networks like Facebook and Twitter. We
1:42will soon have our own website for the
1:44newsletter as well, and there, month by
1:46month, we reflect on current events in
1:48brief notes. Uh, Josefina Morales is
1:52especially driving this newsletter with
1:55, well, reflections, analyses, and
1:58debates on the situation of our
2:00countries and, above all, the situation
2:03of the world economy and this crisis
2:06that has been developing and extending
2:08over time since 2008; and, despite the
2:11good omens a few years ago that it
2:14seemed we were going to get out of it,
2:18we now find ourselves in a deepening of
2:20the crisis. Where, well, some want to
2:26lay the weight of the crisis on the
2:28coronavirus pandemic and COVID, on the
2:31disease produced by the virus, COVID-19
2:34, when, uh, we know that it has only
2:36heightened a crisis that was already
2:39underway. But well, so I was telling
2:42you, we have the newsletter where we
2:44reflect our analyses every month. Our
2:48working group consists of over 50
2:50researchers and professors from
2:53practically every Latin American
2:56country: Honduras, Haiti, El Salvador,
2:59Mexico, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay,
3:02Uruguay, Argentina (I'll surely forget
3:05a few), and Bolivia. We have been
3:10carrying out this networking, exchange,
3:13and debate project regarding our own
3:15situation as well. Coming up on June 17
3:21, we are starting a virtual course
3:24through CLACSO where we want to provide
3:28a critical, Marxist perspective on the
3:31world economic crisis and the crisis of
3:35capitalism. Julio will be coordinating
3:39that course, and he'll surely say more
3:42about it later, but there is still time
3:45to sign up. It starts on June 17 via
3:47the CLACSO platform. So, I would like
3:51to introduce those who will be
3:53participating. We had planned for
3:57Camille Chalmers from Haiti to
3:59participate today, but unfortunately,
4:01he has fallen ill. Luckily, he is
4:04already recovering and is back home. We
4:07spoke with him today, and he is in the
4:09recovery process, but he won't be able
4:11to join our meeting. We hope that by
4:16the next discussion, he will be fully
4:18recovered and able to be present to
4:21share his analysis, debates, and
4:23opinions on what is happening,
4:25particularly in such a stricken region
4:28as Haiti. So, from here, we send him
4:32our warmest and most fraternal
4:33greetings. We hope he makes a full
4:38recovery very soon. We also have Marina
4:42Machado from Brazil. Marina is an
4:46economist, a professor at the Federal
4:49University of Rio de Janeiro, and
4:52secretary of SEPLA, the Latin American
4:55Society of Political Economy and
4:57Critical Economics. We are all members
5:02of this working group and of SEPLA,
5:04where we have also been developing
5:06meetings and debates with a critical
5:09perspective on our situations,
5:11especially by getting involved with the
5:14social and political movements of our
5:16countries. We have Marina, and also
5:20Carolina Jiménez from Colombia.
5:24Carolina is a political scientist and
5:27heads the Political Science Department
5:29at the National University of Colombia.
5:32She is also a member of the WG, a
5:35member of SEPLA, and I don't know if
5:37I'm forgetting anything else. Caro, you
5:40can add it when you intervene. And
5:44Julio Gambina from Argentina, also a
5:46member of CEPLA, a member of the
5:48Council, sorry, a member of FISIP, the
5:51Foundation for Social and Political
5:53Research, and also a member of the
5:55Working Group on Crisis and World
5:58Economy, and well, he will be in charge
6:00of the virtual seminar that begins on
6:03June 17th through CLACSO. So, well, I
6:07am grateful that you are willing and
6:08have the time to participate in this
6:10conversation, in the in this
6:15conversation, in this debate, and well,
6:18to also thank CLACSO for the
6:20possibility of meeting through the
6:23CLACSO platform, for giving it
6:25publicity, and for always encouraging
6:27these spaces for meeting and debate so
6:30that we can also give voice to other
6:33critical perspectives from different
6:36angles regarding what is happening to
6:38us. So, to not delay any further, we
6:43have two hours to debate and to meet,
6:45so we will try to keep our
6:47presentations brief. So that they take
6:52up more or less an hour, or a little
6:55over, and this way we can also make
6:57room for questions that may arise
6:59through the platform, through Zoom, or
7:02...I also know it is being broadcast on
7:04Facebook, so we will try to gather the
7:06questions and after you have spoken, we
7:09will try to distribute them and make
7:11them heard. So if it’s alright with
7:16you, let’s start with Marina. And the
7:21first question that arises is, we are
7:24at a moment where, according to the
7:27World Health Organization, the
7:29epicenter of the pandemic, the
7:32epicenter of the disease produced by
7:35the coronavirus, is occurring in Latin
7:38America, right? Although there are some
7:42countries where positive signs are
7:44being recorded, especially in Europe,
7:47the epicenter has shifted to Latin
7:49America, and more than 75%of new cases,
7:52says the World Health Organization,
7:55have emerged from Latin American
7:57countries and South Asia. Uh, I wanted
8:01to know, above all, we know that Latin
8:04America—what is happening with this
8:07health crisis that the pandemic has
8:09brought us to, or rather, now we are
8:12going to see that the pandemic is a
8:15product of this crisis, of this
8:17capitalist crisis, but it isn't
8:20happening in all countries in the same
8:23way, or the same thing isn't happening
8:25in every country, and Brazil is a
8:29country that concerns us because of the
8:32number of cases, the number of deaths,
8:34and above all, the policies, or the
8:37lack thereof, that we don't see being
8:40implemented to safeguard people's lives
8:42, right? So we would like to know,
8:45Marina, how you see it, how this whole
8:47situation is being experienced in
8:49Brazil.
8:53Okay, go ahead. Can you hear me well?
8:55Yes, go ahead. Well, good afternoon to
8:59everyone, to all, listening to us.
9:03Thank you very much, Gabi, for the
9:05introduction, and first of all,
9:06greetings, and I also want to thank
9:08Clacso for the space. I thought I would
9:12bring two axes to the debate, for us to
9:15discuss, to lay out, right? Two, two
9:18big ideas. A first axis about the
9:24general characterization of the crisis,
9:26and a second one, specifically about
9:29Brazil, because of what Gabi asked me
9:31and the situation today in Brazil,
9:33which is very serious in economic,
9:35political, and health terms. And I
9:39would truly say it is very sad to know
9:42that my country is largely responsible
9:45for Latin America being the new
9:48epicenter of the coronavirus in the
9:51world. So, let's talk a little bit
9:54about the crisis in general first, and
9:57then about Brazil.
9:59About the crisis in general, does that
10:01sound okay?
10:02Sure.
10:03About the crisis.
10:05No, I was going to suggest, Marina, I
10:06was going to suggest we do it the other
10:07way around, if you could talk more
10:09about that, because that way we can
10:10talk about the crisis later. Yes,
10:13go ahead.
10:13go ahead.
10:14go ahead.
10:16Well, so Brazil is currently second in
10:19the world in the number of cases. We
10:23have around 720,000 cases more or less.
10:28It is third in the world in terms of
10:31the official growth of COVID-19 and has
10:34the highest upward slope in the growth
10:37rate. Of course, there are countries
10:41like India that have a large population
10:44and also very difficult health
10:46conditions, but Brazil has a population
10:48almost seven times smaller than India's
10:51, right? and we have almost the same
10:54data, so the situation is very serious.
10:58And the first thing that relates to the
11:01general characterization of the crisis
11:03is that what is happening in Brazil is
11:06not a health crisis; it is a capitalist
11:09crisis and a crisis, well, of the
11:12capitalist State as well, and of the
11:15deepening of the coup d'état we have
11:17been suffering since 2016, perhaps even
11:20since 2013, and which has been
11:23unfolding. So there is no way to
11:26separate health conditions from
11:28capitalist relations due to the
11:30commodification of healthcare. We have
11:33a universal health system in Brazil,
11:35which is something most countries do
11:38not have. The United States even calls
11:40it the SUS universal health system. And
11:44that is the only reason we do not have
11:47more deaths. But as you know, we don't
11:50even have a minister of health at this
11:52moment. We have a general who has acted
11:57as interim health minister because he
12:00was the second in command when the
12:03second health minister that Bolsonaro
12:05tried to appoint was against fully
12:08authorizing the use of chloroquine for
12:11all patients, including those in the
12:14early stages of the disease. What has
12:17happened there? And it must be
12:19understood politically. Bolsonaro had
12:22about two options, it seems to me, in
12:24the face of this crisis. He could have
12:28emerged as the savior of the population
12:31by taking the measures that are truly
12:33necessary, such as a minimum income,
12:35productive conversion, increasing the
12:38capacity of the health system, ah,
12:42printing money, right? Eh, thinking
12:45about how to fix the debt issue. Those
12:49deeper measures perhaps he wouldn't do,
12:50but minimum income and productive
12:52conversion he could have done. Formally
12:57, Brazil created a minimum income
12:59program to encourage social isolation,
13:01but most of the population that needs
13:03it has not yet received it. The other
13:08option Bolsonaro had was the one most
13:10likely for him to take because it did
13:13not require him to oppose the ruling
13:15class that, in fact, put him in power.
13:18One must understand what the coup
13:20d'état in Brazil is and what role it
13:22plays. In my opinion, I put it here for
13:24you to evaluate. It fulfills two, two
13:27roles, right? It fulfills a double,
13:29double role, a dual role. That is to
13:33say, on one hand, it accelerates
13:35capitalist reconfiguration in the world
13:37, and on the other hand, it allows
13:40Brazil to fully ally itself with the
13:42United States in its hegemonic dispute
13:45against China at this time. So
13:48Bolsonaro didn't really have much of an
13:50option to take the measures that were
13:52necessary from an economic point of
13:54view and from a health point of view to
13:56protect the Brazilian population,
13:58because he would have to oppose the
14:00bloc in power that, in fact, keeps him
14:02there. So, what he does is acknowledge
14:07the depth of the capitalist crisis and
14:10recognize there is no way out of it,
14:12and that developmentalism will not be
14:15an option, so he tries to position
14:17himself as a defender of the people and
14:20a critic of the crisis. That is to say,
14:23he argues against isolation, against
14:25social distancing, because he believes
14:28that this way he can appear as the guy
14:30who saves the population from the
14:32economic crisis. So, on one hand, he
14:36does everything he can to worsen the
14:38economic situation of the people, right
14:40? By not granting, for example, a
14:42minimum income. While on the other hand
14:45, he uses that politically to try to
14:48legitimize himself and position himself
14:51as necessary to a part of the
14:53population that today is about 20%who
14:56are really with him, and about 30%who
14:59support him in some way, and with that,
15:02he becomes necessary for the armed
15:05forces. There is a lot of debate right
15:08now about whether or not we are living
15:10through a new coup d'état in Brazil. A
15:13self-coup fostered by Bolsonaro. I
15:17would like to tell you that yes, it
15:19seems to me that we are living through
15:21a coup, a deepening of the coup. I
15:25characterize it as a preventive
15:27counter-revolution on the part of our
15:30ruling classes, because the possibility
15:32of a social explosion is really very
15:35great, and we have seen the protests
15:37these days in which, finally, the
15:40people who support Bolsonaro have not
15:42had a monopoly on the streets. We, the
15:46anti-Bolsonaro protesters, have also
15:48taken to the streets, which is not
15:50right because we should be in isolation
15:52, but most people in Brazil cannot
15:54isolate, especially Black people, poor
15:57people, people from the periphery,
15:59because they do not have the minimum
16:01conditions from the government to do so
16:03, right? So we are living, in my
16:06opinion, yes, in a preventive
16:08counter-revolution, but that does not
16:10mean they are going to remove Bolsonaro
16:13. The class struggle will define
16:16whether he falls or not. As long as he
16:19is useful to the ruling classes, and
16:21especially to the armed forces, in my
16:24opinion, he will not fall because it is
16:26more interesting for the armed forces
16:28in Brazil to hold the actual government
16:30, to hold actual power, right? And not
16:34have the burden of being the face of
16:36the government during the greatest
16:38capitalist crisis and the greatest
16:40health crisis in history. So today, we
16:44have most of the high-ranking
16:46government positions under military
16:49command. We have a de facto military
16:52government in Brazil, and it is very
16:53important to highlight that. We are
16:56having a talk here about Latin America,
16:59because historically we have seen the
17:01role that military coups in Brazil have
17:04played for other countries in the
17:06region, and we have also seen the
17:08sub-imperialist role of Brazil since
17:10the 2016 coup in imposing that line on
17:12other countries in the region,
17:14including the coup in Bolivia. So if we
17:18have a military government in Brazil,
17:21it is no longer necessary to remove
17:23Bolsonaro or for Bolsonaro to, uh,
17:25close Congress for us to have a
17:27military government. Yes, we already
17:29have a military government. The
17:32bourgeoisie, the sectors of our
17:33bourgeoisie that oppose Bolsonaro, know
17:36that they have to coordinate with the
17:38military; they know it is with them
17:39that they must coordinate because there
17:42is the option of removing Bolsonaro and
17:44his vice president, who is a general,
17:46right? Through the Electoral Court, or
17:50there is the option of impeachment to
17:52remove only Bolsonaro. Neither of the
17:55two is interesting for the bourgeoisie
17:58in terms of getting rid of the army. It
18:02didn't want to remove the so-called
18:04left, although a developmentalist left
18:06with many problems, and it put the army
18:08there, and now it has to deal with the
18:10army, right? So, to close, I will tell
18:15you about the latest events in Brazil,
18:17which I think are very significant in
18:20this game, right? The Minister of
18:24Defense, who is an active-duty general,
18:26right? He is the guy who is handling
18:30the interlocution between Bolsonaro,
18:32Congress, and the bourgeoisie at this
18:34moment. So we have a general in charge
18:38of this political interlocution for the
18:40Bolsonaro government. We have a very
18:44serious attitude from the Bolsonaro
18:46government, which has changed the
18:47metrics for COVID deaths. Brazil no
18:50longer measures, no longer measures
18:52COVID deaths as it used to. We had
18:56tremendous underreporting, a scale 7 to
18:5912 times greater than official data,
19:02but now we don't even measure them
19:05officially. The Public Prosecutor's
19:10Office has filed against Bolsonaro to
19:12resume measuring and publicizing the
19:15previous pandemic data, but, uh, we
19:17don't measure. And this last week, some
19:21jurists, even the president, have said
19:24that our Constitution, uh, would open
19:27the possibility for the army to be a
19:30moderating power among the other
19:32branches. So if there is social
19:34upheaval, the army could step in and
19:37moderate, and that would be
19:38constitutional. Of course, it is not.
19:41There was a great debate in terms of
19:43that. The Constitution, uh, is part of
19:45the transitional justice, of the end of
19:47the military dictatorship. Exactly, and
19:50there is no room, no room at all for
19:52that, but in my view, it is one more
19:55indication of the role the Armed Forces
19:57play in the current government of
19:59Brazil; the possibility, yes, of that
20:01deepening. Because while protests
20:05explode from people who have no means
20:08to survive this pandemic and are facing
20:11death, whether due to economic
20:14conditions or COVID, the bourgeoisie is
20:17indeed interested in unifying and
20:20deepening the coup; no matter the cost
20:23to them. So, that is where we are in
20:26Brazil.
20:29Thank you, Marina. Uh, Julio, if you'd
20:32like, let's continue with you, so you
20:35can give an idea of how the crisis is
20:38here in Argentina—well, not the
20:40crisis, but the situation with COVID in
20:43Argentina. We can't hear you. There.
20:53You have to turn on—you have to turn
20:54on the microphone to speak. Well, thank
20:56you. I was saying it's a pleasure to
20:58share this with Marina, with Carolina,
21:01and with you. I want to send a big hug
21:04from here to Camil Chalmers so he
21:07recovers soon and we can share debates
21:10with him. His voice is very important,
21:13it is very necessary. Uh, I am looking
21:18at the chat here at the greetings from
21:20comrades from all over our America.
21:25Truly, it is very gratifying to know
21:28that we are able to have this meeting,
21:30even if it is virtually, and I find it
21:33very interesting, uh, the way you frame
21:36the discussion, Gabriela, in pointing
21:39to our America as the epicenter of the
21:42pandemic, because until recently it was
21:45the United States, the hegemonic
21:47country of world capitalism, and before
21:50that it was Europe; we were talking
21:55about Spain, Italy, the United Kingdom,
21:58Belgium, France, developed capitalist
22:00countries, and previously China, which,
22:03of course, does not have those levels,
22:06but China today disputes the hegemony
22:09of the world system. Now the pandemic
22:14has landed in a territory of poverty.
22:19Uh, it is not in vain what we heard
22:21from Marina just now and that Brazil
22:24today is the second country in terms of
22:27cases and the third in deaths, with the
22:30prospect of quickly surpassing the
22:32United Kingdom and being second in
22:35total. But beyond what was said about
22:40Brazil, I want to draw attention to the
22:43fact that in the statistics of 188
22:45countries, among the top 50, there are
22:4810 countries from our America. So, it
22:53is not just about thinking in
22:56geographic terms that the pandemic
22:58landed among us, but that there are
23:01countries that are really, very, very
23:04affected. 10 countries among the 50
23:07most contaminated. Well, our comrades
23:11in Peru—Peru is very far from being
23:14the territory that Brazil is or having
23:17the population that Brazil has, and
23:19Peru is the eighth country in
23:22contamination. But also, uh, there is a
23:27topic we have to analyze: the, within
23:30those 10 countries that include Brazil,
23:33in the nine Latin American countries
23:36that appear among the top, uh, 50,
23:38where obviously there is Chile, there
23:41is Mexico, there is Colombia, Panama,
23:44Ecuador, the Dominican Republic,
23:46Argentina; among all of them, they have
23:51figures similar to Brazil's. that is to
23:55say, they consolidate the second place,
23:58placing it, uh, as a whole. So, the
24:02first consideration to think about is
24:05that the pandemic is reaching a
24:08territory not only of poverty, but a
24:11territory of inequality. Because
24:14without being the territory with the
24:16greatest poverty in the world, our
24:18America is the territory that
24:20concentrates the greatest inequality.
24:23And one must think, note, and register
24:26that the deterioration of health is a
24:28deliberate consequence of the policies
24:31we call neoliberal today, but which
24:34began by being tested in the Southern
24:37Cone of our America, at the beginning
24:40of the 70s, with the coup d'état in
24:43Chile, with the terrorist coups d'état
24:46. And that policy, which placed health
24:51as a commodity, uh, meant modifying an
24:54orientation of rights for a, uh,
24:57mercantile orientation. Capitalism as a
25:02monetary-mercantile society is what was
25:05imposed, uh, from a sanitary point of
25:08view. That is why the health crisis, in
25:12quotation marks—in inverted commas,
25:14they would say in Brazil—is a
25:17deliberate matter of the hegemonic
25:19policy in the region, with which the
25:22genocide of state terrorism is
25:24expressed today as genocide in the
25:27popular sectors, in the least served
25:29sectors, and makes the contradictions
25:32of state policies evident. For example,
25:37this is a good moment to compare the
25:39health policy of a country like Cuba,
25:42also a small country, a country with
25:45tremendous economic and social delays,
25:48but one that has developed a health
25:50policy associated with rights that
25:53allows for international solidarity.
25:57Today we have health cooperation with
25:59Peru, nothing less, in Argentina. The
26:03possibility of the arrival of a
26:06contingent of, uh, Cuban doctors was
26:10ideologically rejected with a
26:13deliberate media campaign that hindered
26:17the presence of a contingent of Cuban
26:21doctors in Argentina. In Argentina, the
26:26issue is relatively controlled.
26:29Argentina is in the top 50 ranking; it
26:33appears as the 38th country, so we
26:36shouldn't underestimate it either, but
26:39it is relatively contained compared to
26:42what is happening in Brazil, Chile,
26:45Mexico, or other territories. The same
26:49case with Ecuador, which is, which is a
26:52serious issue, but in Argentina we are
26:54about to complete 80 days of quarantine
26:56; that is to say, two quarantines.
26:59Thinking about the historical
27:01quarantine, because the contemporary
27:03quarantine is 14 days. In Argentina, we
27:06have been under mandatory preventive
27:08social isolation for almost 80 days,
27:11which generates some very interesting
27:13debates. Firstly, the hegemonic sectors
27:17of capitalism in Argentina are strongly
27:20pushing an ideological campaign to lift
27:23the quarantine because we must return
27:26to work. And for us, in a world economy
27:31critique group, it’s interesting how
27:33the large owners of the means of
27:35production realize that even with that
27:38fixed capital in place, they cannot
27:40make it produce, they cannot generate
27:42profit, they cannot reproduce capital,
27:45and therefore they are restricted from
27:47producing surplus value, from
27:49appropriating that surplus value, and
27:52that even limits their capacity for
27:54domination. I mean, to think about the
27:58issue theoretically, it's interesting
28:00to see how, in the Argentine case, the
28:03ruling classes associate to form a
28:05campaign against the quarantine,
28:07against the process of caring for the
28:10population, but at the same time, let's
28:13look at the statistical data. It says
28:16that as of December last year,
28:18Argentina had a 35%income poverty rate,
28:21and it is estimated that it could end
28:24this year at 40-45%. The officially
28:29measured level of income poverty, and
28:31in those sectors of poverty, one cannot
28:34simply quarantine. The "Stay Home"
28:39campaign works for certain living
28:41conditions, but that 40%impoverished
28:44population in Argentina, like in other
28:47countries in our Americas, cannot stay
28:49home because they don't have adequate
28:52housing to do so; and therefore,
28:54categories like "community quarantines"
28:57have appeared. One believes the
29:03opportunity was lost to, beyond
29:05community quarantines, carry out
29:08processes of productive transformation
29:11by taking advantage of these community
29:14quarantine conditions, because the
29:17point is not to stop the production
29:20process entirely, but rather to stop
29:23the contamination process; that is, to
29:27maintain adequate isolation and hygiene
29:30conditions for the population. And
29:34naturally, what has been eroded by half
29:37a century of liberal policies that have
29:40abandoned the right to health is what
29:43is being exposed today, but at the same
29:46time, possibilities are being wasted.
29:51It is true that the Argentine state
29:53implemented a number of compensatory
29:56policies, which in macroeconomic terms,
29:58maintains the level of inequality that
30:01exists in Argentine society. I will
30:04give just one piece of data. The
30:07Argentine government offered what is
30:10called the federal emergency income,
30:13financial support for the population
30:16without work or income, of about 10,000
30:20pesos per month. At the official
30:23exchange rate, we are talking about $
30:25150. At the parallel or illegal
30:28exchange rate, we are talking about $
30:3080. It's a laughable figure. Compared
30:34to what is needed, but the government
30:37imagined it was a subsidy for about 3.5
30:40million people. The surprise is that 12
30:43million people in Argentina signed up
30:47to receive that benefit, and in fact, 9
30:50million people qualified to receive
30:53that income. In case anyone has any
30:57doubt, Argentina has a population of 45
31:00million people. So, what I want to
31:03point out is that, for the Argentine
31:05case and for all of our Americas, the
31:07fact that the pandemic is centered in
31:09the region is a serious issue for
31:11low-income sectors, for the most
31:13impoverished sectors, for the most
31:15exploited, and therefore, this does not
31:18affect the entire population equally.
31:21Some can take better care of themselves
31:23than the impoverished majority in
31:25Argentina and across the entire region.
31:29Thank you, Julio. Well, let's move on
31:33to Carolina so she can give us her
31:35perspective on the situation in
31:37Colombia. Carol. Good, thank you, Gabi.
31:45I also want to greet the colleagues who
31:48are joining us today in this space and
31:51CLACSO for creating these channels of
31:54mediation for us to meet and exchange
31:56despite the complex circumstances. I
32:01would like to present, in very general
32:03terms, what is happening in Colombia in
32:06two dimensions: one, a bit of an
32:08economic and humanitarian assessment of
32:11the pandemic's development, and on the
32:13other hand, in very general terms, what
32:16is called the management of the
32:18so-called pandemic crisis. Indeed, this
32:22assessment—taking as a premise what
32:25has been maintained here—is that,
32:27prior to the start of the pandemic and
32:30the lockdown, a social, economic, and
32:32humanitarian crisis was already taking
32:35shape in Colombia, right? With
32:38different expressions in terms of
32:40unemployment and so on, but it is one
32:42that effectively comes to be
32:43dramatically accentuated by the
32:45pandemic. So, in the first dimension
32:49regarding that socioeconomic component,
32:52it must be said: DANE (DANE is the
32:54National Administrative Department of
32:57Statistics in Colombia) released the
32:59unemployment report last month, and it
33:02increased by 10 points compared to the
33:05same month the previous year; that is
33:07to say, while in 2019 there were around
33:1022 million employed people. In April
33:132020, there are 16 million. We are
33:16talking about 6 million jobs lost or 6
33:19million people who do not have a source
33:23of income today; this is in terms of
33:26official statistics, not counting
33:29underreporting. And in addition to
33:34those 16 million, let's say, who are
33:37currently employed, approximately 50%
33:40work less than 20 hours, which
33:43indicates that their income is really
33:46quite low. This situation starts to
33:51reveal how this pandemic is socially
33:54expressed in terms of unemployment, not
33:56only for the most vulnerable families,
33:59but also for what has been called the
34:01middle class here in Colombia, which
34:04has been in decline and significantly
34:07affected by the crisis. According to
34:11data provided by the Fiscal Policy
34:14Think Tank of the National University
34:17of Colombia, we are talking about
34:19around 9.5 million households, and,
34:22well, Colombia has around 48 million
34:25people. According to the last census,
34:29we would be talking about 80 to 90%of
34:31Colombian households being vulnerable.
34:351.2 million households in high
34:38vulnerability, or excuse me, in extreme
34:42poverty, 2.8 million in poverty, and
34:457.6 in vulnerability, which indicates
34:49that 9.5 million households today have
34:52difficulty guaranteeing a vital minimum
34:56. So, the pandemic, in terms of its
34:59socioeconomic impact, has been
35:01manifesting in this way. Hence the
35:04insistence, and the mobilizations—
35:07well, we'll touch on that later, but
35:10they are planned for in 8 days—one of
35:13the main issues being raised is the
35:15need to guarantee a universal basic
35:18income, or at least a basic income for
35:21these 9 million households we just
35:23mentioned. Uh, needless to say, these
35:29households are indeed going hungry.
35:32There are already different
35:33demonstrations in the working-class
35:35neighborhoods of the main cities. Red
35:38flags are being used on houses to
35:40signal that there is no food in these
35:43homes, and the red flag has become,
35:45let's say, an expression of the social
35:47crisis we are experiencing. So, there
35:51is an expression there that I think is
35:53important to highlight. To this, we
35:56should additionally point out that it
35:58is a humanitarian tragedy that we are
36:01living through in Colombia. Recent
36:05figures indicate that from January to
36:07date, 150 social leaders have been
36:10assassinated, which in the context of
36:12COVID has become much more dramatic
36:14because now they are reaching the homes
36:17of social leaders and killing both the
36:19leaders and their families. So, the
36:24humanitarian crisis has deepened, if
36:26you'll allow the expression, because
36:29territories are completely unprotected
36:31and the populations in these rural
36:34territories as well. I believe those
36:38are two very clear dimensions of how
36:40the pandemic has affected Colombia, I
36:43insist, in this socioeconomic and
36:45humanitarian expression. It must be
36:48pointed out that, in effect, let's say,
36:50it is apparently not as dramatic in a
36:53comparative perspective as some want to
36:55indicate. Colombia has 40,000 cases, of
36:59which 17,000 recoveries are registered,
37:02and as of today, 1,300 deaths. However,
37:06the concern arises because, just like
37:08in Argentina, as we pointed out Julio,
37:10we have been in isolation for about 85
37:13days, starting more or less around
37:15March 20th. So, what is foreseen now is
37:19for the peak of cases to begin. It is
37:23noted that June and July are going to
37:25be the most dramatic months; that is
37:27what is expected, because the
37:29confinement scenario has already begun
37:32to de-escalate, in a response itself,
37:34as Julio pointed out, to the pressure
37:36from economic sectors, from the need
37:38for workers to go out and move the
37:41productive apparatus, because it is
37:43already being stated that there has
37:45been a decrease of two, or between 2
37:47and 3%, of the GDP in Colombia. So,
37:51that is where the second part comes in
37:53to show the Colombian case, and that is
37:56the management of the crisis. In very
38:00general terms, the government declared
38:02a state of economic emergency, which
38:05gives it a series of powers, let's say,
38:07to issue decrees with the force of law,
38:10and it has issued a significant number
38:12of decrees, of which I would like to
38:15mention two. There is one referring to
38:20the "solidarity income," so that is
38:22little in perspective with what Julio
38:24was also pointing out. And this
38:27solidarity income grants around $ 90
38:30per family, but remember that I spoke
38:33of more or less 9.5 million families.
38:38The solidarity income does not manage
38:40to cover 1.3 million families,
38:42according to the data indicated, which
38:45denotes, on one hand, how precarious
38:47the income granted by the State is, but
38:50on the other, the limited capacity in
38:52terms of actually attending to the
38:54families that required it. So, it has
38:58really been a very stingy management,
39:00if you allow the expression, that has
39:03not been truly willing to address the
39:05level of the problem we are witnessing.
39:09Contrary to that, let's say, this state
39:11of emergency has been used to generate
39:14greater liquidity for the financial
39:16sector. I could go into more detail
39:20later, but the Bank of the Republic has
39:23issued around 40 trillion Colombian
39:25pesos to provide liquidity to the
39:28financial system, which hasn't been
39:30matched, let's say, by any real relief
39:33for ordinary people or the average
39:36debtor. On the contrary, there have
39:40even been reports of some banks
39:43increasing interest rates on the loans
39:46these families hold. So, it is a
39:49management style that has really been
39:51—if you'll allow the expression—an
39:53authoritarian and neoliberal handling
39:55of the crisis. The economic measures
39:58have not really had the impact required
40:00to alleviate the social and
40:01humanitarian crisis. These economic
40:05measures have favored big capital, on
40:07one hand the financial system, and on
40:09the other, a debate has opened in
40:12Colombia because the state of emergency
40:14and these decrees I mentioned
40:16authorized the government to bail out
40:18or take on the private debt of
40:20strategic companies. That is why, for
40:23example, it was even suggested that
40:25Avianca should be saved. You know,
40:27that's the, uh, Colombian airline
40:30company, which isn't actually Colombian
40:33because it's commercially registered in
40:36Panama and is US-owned; but they said,
40:39"We have to step in to rescue Avianca
40:42because, uh, its strategic nature in
40:45controlling, uh, well, air transport,
40:48makes it fundamental," which has, in
40:51effect, sparked a very important debate
40:55because families are dying of hunger. I
40:59insist, there is a tide of red
41:00handkerchiefs in the streets of the
41:02working-class neighborhoods and even in
41:03many sectors that were known here as
41:05the middle class. Because what the
41:08crisis made very visible in Colombia,
41:11and I believe throughout Latin America,
41:14is, uh, profound labor instability. The
41:18so-called entrepreneur, which was the
41:20source of employment theoretically
41:22created by this "orange economy" and
41:25neoliberalism, just serves to show the
41:27instability of society's income. In
41:31Colombia, only 10%of jobs are provided
41:34by the State, which means that 90%of
41:36jobs are in the private economy; but
41:39that private economy includes
41:41everything, even those who are their
41:43own bosses, who are currently in very
41:46vulnerable conditions. So, in general
41:50terms, one could point to these two
41:52elements regarding the crisis and the
41:55management of it. And it is a
41:59management style that we can discuss
42:01later, which has also strengthened an
42:03authoritarian trend and today alerts us
42:06with the arrival of the forces, uh...of
42:12military assistance from the United
42:13States Southern Command, which allows
42:15for the participation of foreign troops
42:18. Well, there is a debate here about
42:20whether or not they are troops in four
42:21strategic territories of Colombia. I
42:23will leave it there for now, I could
42:25develop some ideas further later.
42:28Perfect, perfect. Well, thank you very
42:30much. If you like, let's continue with
42:33the second question, uh, which has to
42:36do with, well, how are you seeing the
42:39crisis, right? We, uh, have already
42:43been discussing, and in some, uh, notes
42:46that we have, uh, published in the
42:48bulletin, it has been reflected that
42:51this 2008 crisis, which started as a
42:53financial crisis but turned into a
42:56practically civilizational, economic,
42:59health, food, uh, climate crisis, uh,
43:01we haven't finished getting out of it
43:04and, and with this current health
43:06situation, it is deepening. Uh,
43:12although the World Bank says that we
43:14are facing the worst crisis, the worst
43:16drop in GDP since the Second World War,
43:18some voices are starting to be heard
43:20saying that, well, in reality this is a
43:22V-shaped crisis, right? In other words,
43:26that we are falling into a very deep
43:28crisis, but there will be a quick
43:29rebound, right? Some spokespeople for
43:33the global economic establishment, uh,
43:35the stock markets and so on, have that
43:38somewhat optimistic attitude; even some
43:40economists of a more Keynesian or
43:42neo-Keynesian bent are agreeing with
43:44these positions that the crisis will be
43:47overcome, even if it is deep, it will
43:49be overcome quickly. Uh, do you think
43:53fiscal aid will be enough to be able to
43:57get out of the crisis? If there is
44:01going to be a quick recovery, how will
44:02the issue of the trade war between
44:04China and the United States continue,
44:06the interference of the United States
44:08in the region, right? What, what is
44:10going to happen with this? Uh, if you
44:13don't mind, Julio, would you like to
44:15start with this question?
44:20Of course. That sounds very good to me.
44:22Uh, perhaps to start, to start thinking
44:26, let's look at the jubilation. uh, in
44:31the United States when the unemployment
44:34rate for the month of May was released,
44:36at 13.5%, and it was celebrated because
44:39the month of April had been over 14.5%.
44:44So everyone was saying, "It’s going
44:46to be 20 and it wasn’t, it was 13.5,
44:49let’s celebrate, joy." But of course,
44:52before the pandemic the unemployment
44:54rate was 3.5%. Let's say there is an
44:59imaginary, a manipulation of the social
45:02consciousness of this imaginary, that
45:05we are quickly exiting the crisis
45:08without understanding what you very
45:10aptly raised, Gabriela: that we have
45:14used the expression "this COVID-19
45:17crisis is a crisis within the great
45:20crisis of capitalism that never
45:23finished emerging from the 2007 crisis.
45:26" And I think that is the point to
45:32consider, because what we have had is
45:35poor growth over the last 10 years,
45:38only disguised by the great growth of
45:41China and, if you will, India; uh, of
45:44the emerging countries involving Brazil
45:47, for example. But well, Latin America,
45:52ECLAC says, since 2011 it has not been
45:55a privileged territory for foreign
45:58investment. 2011 is already a long time
46:02ago, and there is an imaginary among
46:04the ruling classes in Latin America
46:06that foreign investments are going to
46:08come to our countries. Those foreign
46:11investments are not coming. The fall in
46:14international raw material prices, in
46:17the international prices of what Latin
46:20America exports, has fallen
46:22precipitously and is at the level of
46:25the beginning of the 21st century. Thus
46:31, there are structural conditions to
46:33think that in our America the crisis is
46:36profound, that in the world system it
46:39is profound; it is so profound that the
46:42country that disguised growth in recent
46:44years, China, for the first time since
46:47modernization, is not giving a target
46:50growth figure for its economy for this
46:532020. It is the first time this has
46:56happened. The Monetary Fund suggested
47:00that China could grow at 1%and in the
47:03benign horizon of the Fund's imaginary,
47:06it says that the world economy will
47:08fall by 3%this year, but everything
47:11indicates it will be worse. The United
47:16States had said first quarter, a 4.8%
47:18fall in the economy; then it revised it
47:21and the fall was 5%. And the impact of
47:27policies, of economic restrictions,
47:30barely reached 10 days in the month of
47:33March, so, therefore, that first
47:36quarter does not have a very strong
47:38impact on the fall of the US economy. I
47:44think it is illusory to think of quick,
47:46immediate solutions. The issue is
47:50serious because what is in crisis is
47:52the capitalist order just as it emerged
47:55from the 70s crisis. Uh, the 70s crisis
48:01led to this liberalizing policy that we
48:05simply call neoliberal policies. This
48:10is what entered into crisis in 2007 and
48:13what we have is a very strong offensive
48:15by capital to try to overcome the
48:18crisis. The crisis, let’s not kid
48:21ourselves, is about the limits and
48:23difficulties for the process of
48:25production and reproduction of surplus
48:28value, of profit, of capital
48:30accumulation, and ultimately, of
48:32domination. I say it this way because,
48:35what will happen with the contradiction
48:37expressed by the trade war between the
48:40United States and China? Will it just
48:43end once the pandemic is over, once the
48:46vaccine appears? Moreover, there’s
48:49the race for the vaccine, or if you
48:51will, the lack of global cooperation
48:54regarding COVID. One of the
48:57participants just asked why I was
49:00advocating for the presence of Cuban
49:02doctors when Argentina has enough
49:04professionals and technical-scientific
49:07capacity. But on the contrary, this is
49:11the time for international cooperation;
49:13let all doctors from all over the world
49:15come to every country that is having
49:17problems. Let’s all focus on Peru,
49:20let’s focus on Brazil, let’s focus
49:22on Latin America. But notice, the G20
49:25turned into a summit of presidents
49:28during the 2008 crisis and there was
49:30cooperation, even if with few results;
49:33and obviously, the G20 was thinking
49:36about how to save the capitalist order.
49:40But, in the current conditions of deep
49:43recession—never in the history of
49:45capitalism has there been a deliberate
49:48recession established by public
49:50policies of a representative group of
49:53states that make up the world system—
49:56there is no cooperation. What
49:59cooperation can there be when the
50:01United States promotes "America First"?
50:05When the United States confronts China,
50:08when the United States sanctions Russia
50:11, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, where there is
50:14an attempt at a unilateral solution.
50:19When Great Britain encourages Brexit,
50:23the withdrawal from Europe and
50:25therefore a national response, when the
50:29political response to the breakup of
50:32the Soviet Union 30 years ago are
50:35nationalist right-wing exits where the
50:38imaginary horizon of the near future is
50:41an economic lockdown. To try to extend
50:46capitalist relations on a global scale.
50:50No, let's not deceive ourselves in that
50:52regard. Attempting to extend labor
50:55relations to the whole world,
50:58attempting to boost the exploitation of
51:00common goods, especially in our
51:03territories. Latin America's potential
51:09in terms of common goods is highly
51:12desirable to big capital in a time of
51:16huge hydrocarbon crisis, where the goal
51:21is to replace hydrocarbons with other
51:25energy products, with other energy
51:29sources. And, therefore, what
51:33capitalism is struggling with today is
51:36finding a solution to restore the
51:39normalcy of the capitalist order, which
51:42implies the subordination of workers on
51:46a global scale at a time when the
51:49wage-labor of the global population has
51:52grown, at a time when there is an
51:56exacerbation of the exploitation of
51:59common goods to subordinate nature to
52:02productive logic. of contemporary
52:06capital at a time when consumerist
52:09mechanisms of the population are
52:11stimulated to provide an outlet
52:14precisely for capitalist production on
52:17a global scale. So, I would not be as
52:21optimistic as many analysts,
52:23journalists, academics, or government
52:26officials, who suggest that this is a
52:29transient issue, that we will get out
52:31of it quickly, because the problem is
52:34not COVID-19. COVID-19 aggravates the
52:39situation of the capitalist crisis. The
52:43oil problems, that a month ago we had a
52:46negative futures price for oil, show
52:50very serious energy problems. The fact
52:54that we have a world population today
52:57of 7.5 billion inhabitants and
53:00agricultural production to supply 12
53:03billion people, makes it evident that
53:06there is agricultural production being
53:09destined for energy production to feed,
53:13uh, engines; to feed machines, whether
53:16planes, ships, cars, and, therefore,
53:19not people. In other words, here the
53:23energy crisis, the food crisis, the
53:26environmental crisis, even the current
53:29deliberate recession in progress that
53:32stopped the productive process, even
53:35generated the imaginary that the
53:37environment is doing well. Uh, what
53:41will this return to normalcy that will
53:44come after the quarantines be like? A
53:47recovery of capacity. I think that what
53:52we have been doing in the Working Group
53:54on Crisis and World Economy is
53:56encouraging people to think that not
53:59only is there, in terms of the
54:01capitalism imagined by the dominant
54:03sectors, a quick V-shaped recovery as
54:06they imagine, but what is the
54:08possibility of thinking in alternative
54:11terms, in terms of those who suffer the
54:14conditions and policies of capitalism
54:16to think about alternative policies.
54:22Well, thank you, Julio. Uh, Carolina,
54:25would you like to continue, please?
54:29Uh, yes, somewhat in the perspective
54:32that Julio points out, I think that in
54:34effect, here, several issues are barely
54:36visible in terms of these adjustments.
54:40I think a bit because of what we are
54:43seeing in Latin America and, well,
54:45particularly I can, uh, develop it from
54:48Colombia, state measures have been in
54:50favor of rescuing capital. I think that
54:53here in Colombia, about five issues
54:55have been managed that I think it is
54:57important to highlight in the framework
54:59of the, well, of the economic impact
55:01that the pandemic has had. Economic
55:04guilds have suggested and have been
55:06proposing a series of labor reforms
55:09that further flexibilize the employment
55:12conditions of workers. I believe this
55:16is a measure, in effect, for labor to
55:18bear the cost of the economic impact
55:20caused by the pandemic. These labor
55:24reforms already have a concrete
55:25expression right now, for example, the
55:27payment of the bonus given mid-year to
55:29male and female workers. The government
55:33authorized flexibility and opened a
55:35scenario for negotiations between
55:37worker and employer as if they were on
55:39equal footing, especially in those
55:42scenarios where the union is very weak
55:44and where the organizational capacity
55:46of labor has been hit hard. So, that
55:50first adjustment via labor reform, I
55:52insist, hits the capacity and the
55:54salary of the workers. There is a
55:56second element that is important to
55:58point out. Also, within the framework
56:01of the crisis, the need for pension
56:03reforms is being raised. There was a
56:07very important debate here because it
56:09was authorized under the state of
56:12emergency to go to Colpensiones, which
56:15is the public fund, but what was really
56:18sought was to solve a debt and capacity
56:21problem of rescuing private pension
56:23funds again with public money. As Julio
56:29pointed out, it must also be noted here
56:31that these economies, particularly
56:32Latin American economies, are indeed
56:34experiencing a huge devaluation process
56:36. The devaluation we have experienced
56:39in Colombia has caused the debt to
56:42increase to around 60 points of the GDP
56:44, when it was handled on average
56:47between 40 and 45. And well, this
56:50devaluation also indeed impacts the
56:52basic food basket in economies that
56:54have been becoming foreign-owned, let's
56:56say. Significantly, and where a good
56:59part of basic consumption relies on the
57:02importation of certain consumer goods.
57:06Another element that I think is
57:08important to point out in this debate
57:11is, and it was pointed out at the time,
57:14the impossibility of touching the debt,
57:17the type of management that has been
57:20the subject of negotiation. We pay
57:24around 30%of the general budget goes to
57:28debt payment. There were proposals here
57:31that fiscal adjustments should include
57:33stopping the payment of debt interest,
57:35and it was a measure that, in effect,
57:44Caro. Hello. We lost her, it seems.
57:52Well, hello. Well, let's continue,
58:00Marina, and when Caro can reconnect,
58:03she can finish her idea. Go ahead,
58:08go ahead. These things always happen,
58:11right?
58:16Well, ah, I very much agree with what
58:19Caro was saying, and what Julio said
58:22before, and what you laid out in your
58:24presentation, Gabi. I think, so as not
58:28to be repetitive, right? What I would
58:32like to emphasize, perhaps, is that
58:35what we are experiencing today is part
58:38of the reconfiguration of the
58:40capitalist mode of production. That is
58:45to say, faced with very widespread
58:47organic systemic crises, capitalism
58:49always has to reconfigure itself if it
58:51is to continue existing, right? And and
58:56we are experiencing a reconfiguration
58:59that has already been underway since
59:02the 2007-2008 crisis exploded, and now
59:06it is deepening and perhaps may come to
59:10be completed. We don't know exactly
59:13what will come out of this, but surely
59:16the world as we know it will not come
59:18out of it, no, the previous normalcy
59:20will not return; rather, this is indeed
59:23part of the complete reconfiguration of
59:25capitalist accumulation and it is
59:27indeed a capitalist crisis. I think
59:31that is the second thing we must
59:33emphasize, because not only in Brazil,
59:35I see everywhere that there is a very
59:38great effort. Even in yesterday's
59:41report from the World Bank, which had
59:44worsened forecasts for the world
59:46economy, I think it was a 5.2%forecast
59:49drop in global GDP, 7.2%in Latin
59:51America, and for Brazil specifically it
59:54was 8%, but the World Bank has tried to
59:57present the crisis as if it were an
1:00:00external element. That is, we had this
1:00:042007-2008 crisis, it was bad, but the
1:00:07economy was already recovering, and now
1:00:10, what bad luck, now we have a virus
1:00:12coming from the outside that has
1:00:15nothing to do with capitalism, right?
1:00:19And and now it puts us back into crisis
1:00:22, and it seems to me that it is a huge
1:00:25lie. There is no other word, it is a
1:00:28lie. It is a lie. The crisis we are
1:00:30living through is a capitalist crisis.
1:00:34Even the virus might be an RNA strand,
1:00:37something that exists biologically
1:00:40beyond human beings, but the disease,
1:00:43COVID-19, is not. And it is the
1:00:48capitalist social relations of
1:00:50production that cause this disease to
1:00:53have the features it has, have the
1:00:55lethality it has, and require the
1:00:58dimension of the economic crisis that
1:01:01it requires. Because to the extent that
1:01:04health ceases to be a right and becomes
1:01:06a commodity like anything else, and
1:01:08that has to do with the most essential
1:01:10part of capitalism, which is
1:01:12commodification, it is that which tends
1:01:14to become generalized in capitalism; to
1:01:16the extent that health is a commodity,
1:01:18that is why there are not enough places
1:01:20in the health system for everyone. That
1:01:23is why there are no mechanical
1:01:24ventilators. That is why people are
1:01:27dying, isn't it? And that is why the
1:01:30non-white population, the poor
1:01:31population, the population in the
1:01:33outskirts, the population of countries
1:01:36like ours, as Julio said, which are
1:01:38countries with poverty and social
1:01:40inequality, are dying to a greater
1:01:42extent, right? And I think we need to
1:01:45place a lot of emphasis on that. On the
1:01:49subject of capitalist reconfiguration,
1:01:52I agree with what the three of you said
1:01:55, and I would perhaps like to outline
1:01:57one point, which is the reconfiguration
1:02:00of labor relations. That is a very
1:02:04important dimension, which is why I
1:02:07don't think there is any possibility of
1:02:10recovering from the crisis quickly, as
1:02:12some capitalist economists suggest,
1:02:15because labor reforms and pension
1:02:20system reforms are part of a broader
1:02:23reconfiguration of labor relations as
1:02:26such, which has also been unfolding
1:02:29since neoliberalism began to be the
1:02:32method of capitalist reproduction in
1:02:34the world, as a way out of the 70s
1:02:37crisis with the flexibilization of
1:02:40production, but now we have, let's say,
1:02:43the flexibilization of labor, right? We
1:02:47have a new predominant mode of work
1:02:50that is becoming predominant, which is
1:02:54work without employment. It’s not
1:02:57just, it’s not just employment
1:02:59without rights, or informal employment.
1:03:02No, rather there is work without any
1:03:05labor ties, and I think the pandemic
1:03:09accelerates that from a technological
1:03:12standpoint. Let’s look at what we are
1:03:15doing here, right? Of telework, of the
1:03:18technology that is necessary for it,
1:03:20and the pandemic also accelerates it
1:03:22because it is a new modality of
1:03:24unemployment. Now, for us economists to
1:03:29be able to show unemployment figures,
1:03:31we must consider underemployment. We
1:03:35must consider the people who cannot
1:03:37work, who cannot access the same number
1:03:40of weekly hours they worked before. In
1:03:45Brazil we call it "uberization," which
1:03:47has to do with apps and such, but it is
1:03:50a new labor relationship that is
1:03:52becoming increasingly predominant on a
1:03:54global scale. At a time when, as Julio
1:03:58put it, for the first time in history,
1:04:00capitalism is the directly predominant
1:04:02relation of production throughout the
1:04:04entire world, right? In the last 10
1:04:08years, the world population has ceased
1:04:10to be mostly agrarian, has ceased to
1:04:13have access to the means of production
1:04:15and to the land, and must reproduce its
1:04:17own life through the purchase of
1:04:19commodities. So it is a very serious
1:04:23moment. I wouldn't want to finish
1:04:26without emphasizing a little list of
1:04:28points here that I think we should keep
1:04:30an eye on. Uh, we can see then that
1:04:36labor relations will surely be
1:04:38reconfigured, capital will surely be
1:04:40centralized, which increases that
1:04:42reconfiguration. Uh, as sure as two
1:04:45plus two equals four. The social
1:04:47division of labor will surely worsen in
1:04:49terms of the racial division, the
1:04:51sexual division, and the international
1:04:54division of labor. We can be totally
1:04:57sure of that, and primary land
1:04:59expropriations will also increase, but
1:05:02so will the expropriation of the
1:05:04working class's rights, right? I think
1:05:09we must identify that the era we are
1:05:11living in is a time of an advancing
1:05:14bourgeois offensive against workers and
1:05:17against the peoples of the world. The
1:05:20bourgeoisie is on the offensive, so
1:05:22they are going to strip us of our
1:05:24rights, and repression is also
1:05:26increasing. Here in Brazil, for example
1:05:29, during the quarantine, just in the
1:05:31city where I live, which is Rio, we had
1:05:34116 military police operations against
1:05:37the favelas, against the people who
1:05:39live in the favelas in Brazil. Since
1:05:43January in Brazil, counting just São
1:05:45Paulo and Rio, we had more Black men
1:05:47and women killed than in the entire
1:05:49United States, right? By the police, by
1:05:52a genocidal, racist state. And well,
1:05:56that is the situation of the advance of
1:05:58fascism that indeed must be confronted
1:06:01given the dimension of the crisis we
1:06:03are living through. I would like to
1:06:08finish by saying that I don't think
1:06:10developmentalism, or that in the face
1:06:13of this crisis, the ruling class will
1:06:15think: "Well, then the system isn't
1:06:18working well and we are going to make a
1:06:21more humane capitalism, a healthier
1:06:23capitalism, a good capitalism, a
1:06:25developmentalist capitalism," and that
1:06:28the new cycle to come will be a cycle
1:06:31that appears to be a developmentalist
1:06:34cycle. Why is the ruling class on the
1:06:36offensive? The only moments in the
1:06:40history of capitalism, the only moment
1:06:42in fact is unique, right? Immediately
1:06:46after the Second World War, when
1:06:48developmentalism was predominant, even
1:06:51the ruling classes themselves were
1:06:53linked to class struggle—that is, to
1:06:55the fear of losing. The moment we are
1:07:00living in now is a moment where popular
1:07:02resistance could lead to such an
1:07:04explosion against capitalism. Never
1:07:07have the contradictions been so
1:07:09explicit that the ruling class would
1:07:12come to propose developmentalism to us
1:07:14again as a response, right? But only if
1:07:17we threaten them. That is to say, what
1:07:21is coming for now is not
1:07:22developmentalism; what is coming for
1:07:25now is a total offensive by the ruling
1:07:27class against the workers of the world.
1:07:31Exactly because they cannot resolve the
1:07:33crisis. And if we look at the
1:07:35geopolitical dimension, to hand it over
1:07:38to Caro, who I imagine will talk a bit
1:07:40about the invasion and, well, the new
1:07:43United States troops in Colombia, right
1:07:46? If we look at the geopolitical
1:07:48dimension, faced with China in this
1:07:51crisis, the United States has no other
1:07:53option but to intensify its domination
1:07:56over Latin America. We, and the
1:08:00Caribbean, are its geostrategic reserve
1:08:02, and we are not even close to the
1:08:04worst moment of the crisis, neither
1:08:06from an epidemiological point of view
1:08:09nor from an economic one. And above all
1:08:13that, we will have to face it when the
1:08:15United States improves its necessary
1:08:17counter-offensive response against
1:08:19China, which has been widely gaining
1:08:21ground in the hegemonic dispute during
1:08:23the pandemic. And it seems to me that
1:08:28the United States troops in Colombia,
1:08:30the declaration of a narco-trafficking
1:08:32state, and all the measures from the
1:08:34United States against our America at
1:08:36this moment show it, so it won't be
1:08:39easy for us.
1:08:43Go ahead.
1:08:43Well, thanks, Marina. Caro, now that
1:08:47you're back, can you finish, uh,
1:08:50wrapping up your remarks, please?
1:08:53Yes, Gabi, thanks. Yes, ve, very
1:08:56quickly, just to recover the first idea
1:08:58I wanted to put forward, and that is
1:09:01that, in effect, what we are witnessing
1:09:03is that the adjustments, what they
1:09:05express a bit, as Marina pointed out,
1:09:08is a deepening of the neoliberal
1:09:10management of this crisis, which
1:09:12implies, in effect, a bailout of the
1:09:14financial system, by guaranteeing debt
1:09:16payments, by issuing liquidity for the
1:09:19financial system, and by socializing
1:09:21losses in the bailout. to private
1:09:25pension funds, of bailing out the
1:09:27productive sector with labor reforms,
1:09:30which we pointed out will hit workers '
1:09:32wages, and, in effect, what is foreseen
1:09:35, I believe, is a much more
1:09:37authoritarian management of
1:09:39globalization. I don't think it's going
1:09:42to be about de-globalizing the world,
1:09:44but rather about a much more
1:09:46authoritarian management that will, in
1:09:48effect, impact the working classes much
1:09:51more deeply. Regarding the second
1:09:53dimension that you were raising about
1:09:56United States interference, Marina
1:09:59already mentioned it; I think it is
1:10:01very important to pay a little
1:10:03attention to the way in which the
1:10:06presence of the United States and the
1:10:09United States troops in Colombian
1:10:11territory is also being developed again
1:10:14, because I believe this presence must
1:10:17be read in an, uh, international
1:10:21context. Let’s say this isn’t
1:10:23simply a threat to the Colombian peace
1:10:25process; it is, in effect, a threat to
1:10:27the democratic process of the
1:10:29Venezuelan State, uh, led by President
1:10:31Nicolás Maduro. This base, these
1:10:34security forces are called, uh, SFAB,
1:10:37the Security Force Assistance Brigade
1:10:39of the American military, which is part
1:10:41of the U.S. Southern Command, will
1:10:43arrive in three territories that are,
1:10:45uh, geopolitically and geoeconomically
1:10:48strategic. We could particularly point
1:10:51to one: they will have a presence in
1:10:53the Catatumbo, which is a very vast
1:10:55border zone with Venezuela, and there
1:10:57is significant concern about what that
1:11:00assistance might represent in terms of
1:11:02military exercises and a military
1:11:04invasion of Venezuela. Let’s say it
1:11:07is not unreasonable to propose this,
1:11:09given previous exercises and the role
1:11:11Colombia has had, particularly in the
1:11:13Lima Group, leading, let’s say, uh,
1:11:15this process. Let us remember that, uh,
1:11:18in March, Trump met with Duque and they
1:11:21defined two priorities for the region:
1:11:23one, regional security, and the fight
1:11:25against drug trafficking. Based on that
1:11:29, the Southern Command has deployed an
1:11:31entire strategy throughout the
1:11:32Caribbean with the perspective of
1:11:34avoiding, let’s say, uh, the impact
1:11:36on American lives from drug trafficking
1:11:38and, two, the defense of democracy in
1:11:40Latin America and the need to push for
1:11:42a transition in Venezuela. I believe
1:11:46these two issues alert us to the risk
1:11:48that this type of U.S. presence in
1:11:50Colombia represents for democratic
1:11:52stability in the region, especially
1:11:55under a government that is, well,
1:11:57aligned and subordinate to the security
1:11:59strategy of the United States. The
1:12:02Duque government, uh, revives the idea
1:12:04of Uribe’s democratic security, which
1:12:07strongly reinforced this, let’s say,
1:12:09uh, this articulation between U.S.
1:12:11military forces and Colombian military
1:12:13forces. I think this is a point to
1:12:16highlight because it accounts for,
1:12:18let’s say, the need to strengthen
1:12:20military control over the entire Latin
1:12:22American territory. But I believe this
1:12:25indicates an element that I think is
1:12:27important to leave open and that
1:12:29perhaps connects with, well, with the
1:12:31last round of interventions, which is
1:12:33to truly assess the hegemonic capacity
1:12:35of the ruling class. I believe that
1:12:38here, uh, when these military
1:12:40strategies of military control and an
1:12:42increasingly authoritarian management
1:12:45are reinforced, it shows that there has
1:12:47been a configuration of a loss of
1:12:49hegemonic capacity in terms of a common
1:12:52sense or a shared cultural project. And
1:12:56I think that's where we need to look,
1:12:58because people...and above all I think,
1:13:00if one could value something positive
1:13:03that has come out of this pandemic
1:13:05situation, it is the fact that people
1:13:07have clearly seen where the
1:13:08government's management is headed,
1:13:10where they are directing their policies
1:13:12, because today it is not just the most
1:13:15vulnerable sectors, but an increasingly
1:13:17broad segment of the population that is
1:13:19a victim of all these types of policies
1:13:21. So, I think we should look there a
1:13:25bit as well to find, despite the
1:13:28difficulties Marina points out, spaces
1:13:31for resistance. Yes, the next question
1:13:35is about just that, and since we are
1:13:37with you, Caro, let's continue, which
1:13:40is that we already came from a process
1:13:42in 2019 where, all over the world, but
1:13:45particularly in Latin America, there
1:13:47had been great social and popular
1:13:49mobilizations, right? In rejection of
1:13:53the austerity policies that the
1:13:54governments intended to implement. The
1:13:58population took to the streets in
1:14:00Ecuador, in Chile, where they only
1:14:02managed to curb the mobilizations
1:14:05slightly with mandatory isolation, but
1:14:07from October until now, they had been
1:14:10permanently taking to the streets to
1:14:13protest against the austerity policies
1:14:15the government, the Piñera government,
1:14:18was applying, but it was something that
1:14:21had been building up for 30 years, as
1:14:23the slogans said, in Chile, in Ecuador,
1:14:27in Colombia, right? When the national
1:14:30strike happened back in November. There
1:14:36have been a lot of social mobilizations
1:14:38that, in a way, had been restrained by
1:14:41the pandemic and the need to isolate in
1:14:44order to stay safe. But these
1:14:48mobilizations re-emerged because of
1:14:50much of what you were discussing
1:14:52regarding labor precariousness, the
1:14:56need to have some type of government
1:14:59aid in the face of this critical
1:15:01situation that the most unprotected
1:15:03sectors are experiencing. It seems
1:15:21Gabriela got disconnected, so I imagine
1:15:24, Carolina, you understood the thrust
1:15:27of the question, and since I said I was
1:15:31with you, it's your turn to answer
1:15:33until Gabriela reconnects, and get
1:15:36ready, Marina, you'll be next. So,
1:15:40Carolina. United States as
1:15:47Go ahead, Carolina. Go ahead. When she
1:15:50returns, Gabriela will continue with
1:15:53her coordination duties.
1:15:56Got it. Thanks, Julio. And the
1:15:57limitations in the response. I could
1:16:00argue that it was because I didn't
1:16:02fully understand the question, but yes,
1:16:05I think this is fundamental, thinking
1:16:07about it.
1:16:08Sorry, sorry, Carolina. Carolina, just
1:16:11in case. The question is, how is the
1:16:13process of resistance coming along?
1:16:16Taking into account that last year,
1:16:182019, prior to the pandemic, Latin
1:16:21America was making news for resistance.
1:16:24Chile, Colombia, Haiti, and Ecuador had
1:16:27shown, uh, strong signs of popular
1:16:30organization and resistance. The
1:16:32question is, how does this look? Not so
1:16:35much now in the middle of the pandemic,
1:16:37but afterwards.
1:16:39Yes, Cris, I think there are several
1:16:42elements that could be, uh, pointed out
1:16:44. Indeed, uh, I think the case of
1:16:47Ecuador is very telling because the
1:16:49pandemic was used to reverse what was
1:16:51won by the mobilizations in October. I
1:16:54think this accounts a bit for how there
1:16:57is an attempt to contain that outburst
1:17:00of popular mobilization that was so
1:17:02significant in Latin America, in Haiti,
1:17:05in Ecuador, as you pointed out, and in
1:17:08Chile. And indeed, although let's say,
1:17:11although the pandemic—if you'll allow
1:17:13me, the expression might not be the
1:17:15most accurate—poses something like a
1:17:17temporary stop in the road due to the
1:17:19circumstances of the lockdown. I think
1:17:23it opens up scenarios, uh, to think a
1:17:26little about the organization of the
1:17:29existing social system. I think it
1:17:33provides many more elements for the
1:17:34struggle of working men and women. And
1:17:37it is interesting that in any case,
1:17:40despite the difficulties of meeting,
1:17:42these types of spaces, organizations
1:17:44have also tried to take advantage of
1:17:46the moment to make more refined
1:17:48elaborations, even with a stop in the
1:17:51road regarding what we are suffering.
1:17:55Now, in that order, I think, and
1:17:57because of what I just pointed out in
1:17:59the previous intervention, I think
1:18:00horizons are opening up in social
1:18:02mobilization; horizons of resistance
1:18:04are opening up that even show that,
1:18:06despite the lockdown, in Brazil they
1:18:08went out, in Chile they have gone out,
1:18:09in Ecuador they have gone out, in
1:18:11Colombia it is being considered for
1:18:13next week to take to the streets, that
1:18:15is, saying: "Well, in the end, what
1:18:17else do we have to lose here?" Uh,
1:18:19putting out that cry of resistance a
1:18:21little. I think what is happening in
1:18:23the United States is very valuable,
1:18:24right? We cannot, uh, let's say, stop
1:18:27valuing it. That resistance of the
1:18:31African American community has been
1:18:33very important to make visible one of
1:18:35those dimensions of this sexist—sorry
1:18:38, racist system. The mobilization of
1:18:42girls and women is also very important
1:18:44in terms of revealing or exposing this
1:18:46patriarchal system, that is, like all
1:18:48the dimensions of domination of the
1:18:50capitalist social system. Now, I would
1:18:53like to warn, well, not warn, but
1:18:56perhaps point out given the context in
1:18:58which we operate, that this resistance
1:19:01must also face a process of
1:19:03criminalization and militarization. I
1:19:07insist, sadly, on what is happening in
1:19:09Colombia; let's say, here the peace
1:19:12process I think helped to develop a
1:19:14broader social sense, the possibility
1:19:16of resolving political conflicts in
1:19:18another way, but the reaction of the
1:19:21most reactionary ruling class has been
1:19:23brutal. The murders, since the signing
1:19:26of the peace agreement, there have been
1:19:28around 400 social leaders murdered. As
1:19:32I said at the beginning of my
1:19:33presentation, this year alone there
1:19:35have been 150 leaders murdered and the
1:19:37government only recognizes 18 murders
1:19:39of social leaders and considers that
1:19:40the others are not the result of their
1:19:42actions. So, in the Colombian case, for
1:19:45example, the resistance is a victim of
1:19:48a whole deployment of the
1:19:49counterinsurgency strategy that
1:19:51characterizes the Colombian State. So,
1:19:53I think the threat there is very strong
1:19:55. The challenges are profound, but in
1:19:59the midst of this exercise of pure
1:20:01violence, I believe there is
1:20:02significant hope that we must support.
1:20:09Thank you very much, Caro. Marina, your
1:20:11vision on the matter. Go ahead. Well, I
1:20:16share that analysis which involves
1:20:19resistance and at the same time the
1:20:22repression of the ruling class. I would
1:20:25like to tell you a little bit about how
1:20:27the protest was here in Brazil this
1:20:29Sunday. It was something that in my
1:20:33life, in my short time of living, I had
1:20:36not seen yet, right? And it really
1:20:39always happens in the periphery and in
1:20:42the favelas and, well, with police
1:20:45repression; but it was like a scene, a
1:20:48dystopian scene, right?,with the street
1:20:51empty and we were there, the protesters
1:20:55and the police in equal numbers and,
1:20:58well, it seems to me that the
1:21:03contradictions of capitalism have never
1:21:05been so explicit, and I mean never,
1:21:07really, even in other historical
1:21:08periods, I think they have never been
1:21:10so explicit, because now it is very
1:21:12explicit that the problem is the
1:21:14commodification of life. It is very
1:21:18explicit that merchandise is against
1:21:21the conquest and the possibility of
1:21:24actually enjoying rights, right? It is
1:21:28very explicit that we do not have a
1:21:30right to life. I think my video cut out
1:21:33, but it's back. It is very explicit
1:21:35that in fact we do not have a right to
1:21:37life in the society in which we live,
1:21:39right? and there is increasingly The
1:21:45possibility of social unrest, I think,
1:21:48is becoming ever more present, but as
1:21:50the left, we face some challenges there
1:21:52, because the repression coming our way
1:21:55is also very great—not just against
1:21:57the organized left, but repression of
1:21:59the general population in a preemptive
1:22:01way by the ruling class, because they
1:22:04know the explosion is coming and they
1:22:06are afraid of it, right? So, I believe
1:22:10the genocidal police state tends to
1:22:13become more and more genocidal and more
1:22:16and more of a police state. And our
1:22:20first challenge, it seems to me—I am
1:22:22going to speak here about three
1:22:23challenges in the resistance. Our first
1:22:26challenge, our first hurdle, is to
1:22:29survive, and it isn't easy for us to
1:22:31survive, is it? So, we must guarantee
1:22:35collective ways of struggling for
1:22:37survival itself. And I believe that in
1:22:41this space of struggle for survival
1:22:44itself lies one of the greatest and
1:22:48most fertile weapons of resistance,
1:22:51right? Because, at least here, and I
1:22:54see it in other parts of our America
1:22:56too, people are organizing collectively
1:22:58to try to survive, right? Even
1:23:02distributing food, cooking together,
1:23:04organizing collectively against
1:23:06repression. That is to say, the first
1:23:10task is that we manage to collectively
1:23:13survive the disaster, right, that we
1:23:16are facing. And there, it seems to me
1:23:21that a second task is to dispute,
1:23:23because it is not when we return to a
1:23:26cycle of gains for the working class
1:23:28that we will dispute the historical
1:23:31meaning of those gains. It is now. It
1:23:35is now that the historical meaning is
1:23:36disputed. Meaning, it is not the time.
1:23:39Right now is not the time for us to sit
1:23:41on the floor and start crying. Quite
1:23:43the contrary. It is time to fight and
1:23:49to dispute the historical meaning of
1:23:51the new wave of working-class gains
1:23:54that will come at some point, right?
1:23:58And in that historical sense, it seems
1:24:01to me that we must abandon some
1:24:03conceptions of the left that have
1:24:05served us for a time, right? For a time
1:24:08. That is to say, we must reclaim our
1:24:10history, but at the same time abandon
1:24:12some things. One of them is the
1:24:14conception of the universal man, right?
1:24:19It is the conception that there is a
1:24:21universal man, a generic human being,
1:24:24that is put forth in practice and that
1:24:26denies, in the class struggle, the
1:24:28concreteness of the working class; it
1:24:30denies the racial division of labor, it
1:24:33denies the sexual division of labor,
1:24:35the international division of labor,
1:24:37and poses it as if class contradictions
1:24:40could come before those—they do not
1:24:42come before, they overdetermine them,
1:24:44but they do not come before. And it
1:24:48will not be possible to overcome a
1:24:50class society if we do not overcome
1:24:52that class society in its concreteness
1:24:55and in the set of determinations that
1:24:57compose it. That is to say, as the left
1:25:01, at that moment we must reject,
1:25:03abandon, and throw into the dustbin of
1:25:05history the conception that there is
1:25:07only one universal man, because some of
1:25:10the most fertile forms of resistance of
1:25:12our era come from the feminist movement
1:25:15, from the black movement, and that is
1:25:17not just a political issue without an
1:25:20economic basis, but it is a question of
1:25:22the reproduction of capitalist society
1:25:25itself. A second thing that must be
1:25:27abandoned, it seems to me, is
1:25:29developmentalism. Developmentalism will
1:25:31not save us. We must return to a
1:25:34socialist horizon in our struggle. We
1:25:37must return to a horizon of struggle
1:25:39against capitalism. We must understand
1:25:42that capitalist reproduction is
1:25:45antagonistic to people's lives.
1:25:48Capitalism prevents us from accessing
1:25:50life, right? So, developmentalism only
1:25:54becomes a historical possibility when
1:25:57the working class threatens the ruling
1:26:01class. And when we once again threaten
1:26:04the ruling class, developmentalism will
1:26:06return as an option from the ruling
1:26:08class. And we must be ready to reject
1:26:12it, right? We must be ready to know
1:26:16that, even if we can recognize that at
1:26:18some point one fraction of the ruling
1:26:20class is better than the other, that
1:26:23must not be our own project; our own
1:26:25project has to go beyond the ruling
1:26:27class and it has to be our own project:
1:26:30for the overcoming of commodification,
1:26:32for the overcoming of capitalism. And I
1:26:36end there by defending that for all of
1:26:39that, uh, I trust, I am very optimistic
1:26:42. Even in this moment, right?,in the
1:26:47resistance, mobilization, and the
1:26:49struggle of the working class, because
1:26:52I believe we will know how to overcome
1:26:55and build, uh, new forms of
1:26:57organization that are in tune with the
1:26:59historical moment we live in, right?
1:27:03And here in Brazil we see now, for
1:27:05example, the emergence of organization
1:27:07among uberized workers that did not
1:27:09exist before. We see the black movement
1:27:13with a lot of impact on the streets, we
1:27:15see the feminist movement, that is to
1:27:17say, we must know how to build new
1:27:20forms of working-class organization,
1:27:22because capitalism also changes
1:27:24historically and it is also a new
1:27:26capitalism. So we must, uh, be creative
1:27:30in that. I trust, as Julio always says
1:27:32and I learned from him, in the infinite
1:27:35capacity and creativity of our peoples.
1:27:39Here we go. Well, thanks Marina,
1:27:42welcome back Gabriela. We are assuming
1:27:46this responsibility during your
1:27:48temporary absence to coordinate, but
1:27:50well, it falls to me to offer a
1:27:52reflection on this topic. There in the
1:27:56questions being asked,
1:27:58By the way, there is an immense number
1:28:00of questions. I don't know if Marina or
1:28:02Carolina are looking at the questions.
1:28:05Um, down there at the bottom there are
1:28:07questions, there are targeted questions
1:28:10, very interesting, but there is one
1:28:12that asks, "What does big capital use
1:28:14this crisis for?" And it seems to me
1:28:18that to think about a response of
1:28:20resistance, we must think that capital
1:28:22is taking advantage of the crisis, the
1:28:24pandemic crisis, and the prior crisis
1:28:26to discipline the popular movement.
1:28:30Note that, before the pandemic, the
1:28:32debates at the International Labour
1:28:34Organization, and in many places, were
1:28:37about the future of work; what was
1:28:39being discussed, what was to come, as
1:28:42if what was coming was an issue of
1:28:44robotics, of artificial intelligence,
1:28:46and that, therefore, it was the end of
1:28:49work. They have been talking about the
1:28:51end of work since the late 60s. However
1:28:55, the wage relationship under the
1:28:57conditions of contemporary capitalism
1:28:59with a lot of labor flexibility is what
1:29:01has been growing. And it is interesting
1:29:06how, during these 80 days of quarantine
1:29:10in Argentina, remote work, telework,
1:29:13home office, as they say, has been
1:29:15imposed, for example, among university
1:29:18professors. I say, as a university
1:29:22professor, we have more work now than
1:29:24before because, uh, this virtual issue:
1:29:27there is no weekend, no Saturday, no
1:29:29Sunday, no holiday, no set hours, and
1:29:31the mind is constantly occupied with
1:29:32the class that needs to be delivered,
1:29:35the class that needs to be uploaded,
1:29:36the video that needs to be uploaded.
1:29:40And therefore, and I say university
1:29:43professors because I imagine many are
1:29:46participating in this debate, but it
1:29:49also happens in healthcare; how many
1:29:52sessions of health professionals are
1:29:55going through these virtual mechanisms
1:29:58right now? Let's say that, uh, it is
1:30:02estimated that in Argentina a third of
1:30:04the regular workforce is doing remote
1:30:07work, which is a different kind of work
1:30:09. Even with Marx, we learned that the
1:30:12working class emerged with the
1:30:14dispossession of the means of
1:30:16production. Well, today we workers have
1:30:20to provide the computer, the internet
1:30:22connection, electricity in our homes;
1:30:25that is, instead of being dispossessed
1:30:27of the means of production, we provide,
1:30:30spend, and invest in means of
1:30:32production that serve capital, in
1:30:34general terms, for its process of
1:30:36surplus value production, accumulation,
1:30:38and profit. And I believe there is a
1:30:42very important reflection needed from
1:30:44teachers' unions at all levels. from
1:30:47preschools, primary, secondary schools,
1:30:50to universities, to discuss collective
1:30:53bargaining agreements under these
1:30:55conditions. Just because there aren't
1:30:58large assemblies or teacher
1:31:00mobilizations doesn't mean that
1:31:03teaching staff aren't sparking a debate
1:31:06on opening salary negotiations,
1:31:08collective agreements, and other
1:31:11working conditions. I want to point out
1:31:13that capital is changing, as Marina
1:31:16says. The strategy of the ruling
1:31:19classes is changing, but workers are
1:31:21also adapting to their conditions. And
1:31:25on that level, the women's movement is
1:31:27no small detail; the movement of women
1:31:30and gender dissidents has grown
1:31:32enormously in a cultural sense, it
1:31:35hasn't stopped in these times of
1:31:37virtuality and it is acquiring a very,
1:31:40very important dimension of cultural
1:31:42debate. That is a primary dimension;
1:31:46the fact that class struggle is not
1:31:48seen as mobilized social classes does
1:31:51not mean that there is no class
1:31:53struggle, much less that there is no
1:31:56Popular Movement organization to think
1:31:59about the conditions of contemporary
1:32:01exploitation. That leads me to say that
1:32:06, for example, the level of
1:32:07international dialogue has grown, this
1:32:10possibility. Let's see, CLACSO has had
1:32:14the possibility for these debates for a
1:32:17long time, but many of us,
1:32:19professionals, intellectuals, CLACSO
1:32:21research centers, were not attending to
1:32:24this virtual debate in the way we are
1:32:26doing today. Here, if you look at the
1:32:31questions, the attendees, there are
1:32:33colleagues from all over our America in
1:32:36this debate that, well, between the
1:32:38questions and what we are saying, shows
1:32:41the level of discussion we have in
1:32:43critical thinking. And, therefore, this
1:32:48possibility, although it is an
1:32:50instrument of subordination of labor to
1:32:53capital, as I was saying just now, it
1:32:55is also a mechanism for seeking
1:32:58political and ideological dialogue for
1:33:00subaltern classes to think about the
1:33:03response to capital. I remember when it
1:33:07was said at the time that the first
1:33:09popular movement that used the internet
1:33:11to accumulate international strength
1:33:14was Zapatismo. There are several
1:33:18Mexicans there asking about the Mexican
1:33:20situation and the comparison with
1:33:22Argentina, Brazil, Colombia. But well,
1:33:26these debates, I don't know if we can
1:33:28resolve those concerns today, but these
1:33:30debates are important to bring the
1:33:32expectations of the peoples closer
1:33:34together. I think we have to gauge that
1:33:38today the response of workers, of the
1:33:41people, is more global, and haven't we
1:33:44been inspired, I ask, to see the
1:33:47immense mobilizations of these days in
1:33:50the United States against police
1:33:52repression, racism, even, where were
1:33:55the most important mobilizations? in
1:33:59the United States and Great Britain.
1:34:01How important it is to see. Uh, a
1:34:05colleague was telling us, "Well, but
1:34:07isn't that resistance based on national
1:34:10, local issues, right? Just as last
1:34:14year we were enthusiastic about the
1:34:16mobilizations in Chile, Colombia, and
1:34:18Haiti, we must also be enthusiastic
1:34:21about the mobilizations against
1:34:22discrimination in the United States, in
1:34:25Great Britain, wherever, because it is
1:34:27part of a global struggle. Uh, more
1:34:30than one person calls us nostalgic
1:34:32because we remember that" proletarians
1:34:35of the world, unite. "Well, in times of
1:34:39globalization of capital's strategy,
1:34:42trusting in the potential and lessons
1:34:46of contemporary struggles, even under
1:34:49quarantine conditions, is very
1:34:52important, very auspicious. For example
1:34:56, I want to mention, uh, Argentina is
1:34:59back in the news globally for
1:35:01defaulting, because Argentina is
1:35:03virtually in a process of payment
1:35:06suspension, and Argentina is
1:35:08negotiating with creditors, and
1:35:10Argentina is paying its debt. While
1:35:13negotiating, it is paying no less than
1:35:15about 4 billion dollars while
1:35:18simultaneously debating whether to
1:35:20apply a 4-billion-dollar tax on large
1:35:23fortunes in Argentina. But under these
1:35:27conditions of isolation restrictions, a
1:35:30popular campaign was formed for the
1:35:32suspension of debt payments and a debt
1:35:35audit, led by none other than Adolfo
1:35:37Pérez Esquivel, Nobel Peace Prize
1:35:39laureate, and by Norita Cortiñas, a 90
1:35:42-year-old Mother of the Plaza de Mayo
1:35:44who shows the younger ones—some
1:35:47white-haired youths like myself, but
1:35:49also the new generations—that there
1:35:52is no age limit. For speaking out, for
1:35:56confronting, and therefore, resistance
1:35:59is a growing process. And both as
1:36:03Carolina said and what Marina pointed
1:36:06out, I draw attention to the fact that
1:36:09there is a process of relegitimizing
1:36:12repressive military force to discipline
1:36:15society, and therefore, I think this is
1:36:18good, even this mechanism we are
1:36:20developing here, made possible by the
1:36:23Latin American Council of Social
1:36:25Sciences; this articulation of regional
1:36:28critical thought, which is a point to
1:36:32highlight, to think critically about
1:36:35this time and to contribute to the new
1:36:38era to come. There are several
1:36:41questions there about whether we have
1:36:43expectations for the future, about
1:36:46which way out, and I think what the
1:36:48colleagues said about being careful
1:36:50with the illusion is very interesting.
1:36:54Progressive. Beware of the
1:36:57neo-developmentalist illusion. There is
1:37:00a question there referring to the
1:37:01recent years of political change in
1:37:03Latin America. Well, the problem is
1:37:06that political change stopped halfway,
1:37:08that it did not attempt to go deep to
1:37:10profoundly transform economic-social
1:37:12relations, and that, it seems to me, is
1:37:14the point to consider for resistance in
1:37:17these times. It also involves thinking
1:37:20about it theoretically; it's not just a
1:37:22matter of, uh, being out in the streets
1:37:25mobilized to explain a project for
1:37:27transformation. What has been blocked
1:37:31for the last 30 years since the
1:37:33breakdown of bipolarity is a
1:37:34civilizational project that fosters an
1:37:37alternative perspective. And I think
1:37:40that in that sense, from a critical
1:37:42perspective, there is much we can say
1:37:45to interpret, to critically understand
1:37:47the capitalist reality of this time, to
1:37:50think about transforming it, to
1:37:52generate the conditions for a
1:37:54transition against capitalism, beyond
1:37:57capitalism, toward a society without
1:37:59exploitation. and Gabi, keep
1:38:02coordinating.
1:38:04Well, thanks Julio. Uh, I have a little
1:38:07problem, which is that I can't see the
1:38:09questions that were, uh, there so I
1:38:11could ask you some. Uh, let's see, I
1:38:15have some here on WhatsApp. h some were
1:38:22already being answered, such as this
1:38:24new progressive international that has
1:38:26been developing. Uh, there was a
1:38:29question regarding that, to see what
1:38:31you thought. Another question I had
1:38:34managed to read was if, uh, if
1:38:36neoliberalism as an ideological
1:38:39construct had entered into crisis. Uh,
1:38:42then, let's see, uh, there were
1:38:45questions regarding Vicentín. Julio,
1:38:48for you, to see what your opinion was
1:38:49on the case. If you want, we can answer
1:38:56now, Gabi.
1:38:58Yes, go ahead and answer while I see if
1:39:00any others come in, but I lost the ones
1:39:02I had when I disconnected.
1:39:05But I think many were...There were some
1:39:07questions about the issue of resistance
1:39:09in Brazil, meaning they have also been
1:39:12answered with your presentation.
1:39:14Maybe I don't know if Marina wants to
1:39:15say something. Then Caro, and well,
1:39:18because we are already at the time that
1:39:21I actually can't see the questions, so
1:39:23if, if Caro starts, I will try to see
1:39:26them on Facebook and here in the chat
1:39:28because I am on my mobile and there
1:39:32I'll speak second. Can that be?
1:39:33Marina, Marina, I'll read you a
1:39:35question that's been there from the
1:39:37beginning. Your opinion on the protests
1:39:40that have taken place these last few
1:39:42weeks in Brazil following what happened
1:39:45with George Floyd in the United States
1:39:47under the slogan" Black Lives Matter. "
1:39:51Many anti-fascist groups have taken to
1:39:53the streets, and at least what is seen
1:39:55is that people are daring to go out and
1:39:57occupy the public space protesting. Do
1:40:01you think there can be a channeling of
1:40:03those protests that could function as a
1:40:04counterforce to Bolsonaro and his
1:40:06allies? Luciana Fontes asks you.
1:40:12Well, my opinion is very positive. I
1:40:15personally went to the protests and I
1:40:17think it has been a tremendous
1:40:20achievement, a tremendous victory.
1:40:23There was a lot of debate in Brazil
1:40:26about whether the protests were valid,
1:40:29in the sense that some on the left
1:40:31argued that by taking to the streets to
1:40:34protest, we would actually be
1:40:36catalyzing the possibility of a
1:40:39self-coup by Bolsonaro. In my personal
1:40:44opinion, I don't think it's the
1:40:46protests that do that, that it's
1:40:48already underway, that it's already
1:40:50happening. And well, Luciano's question
1:40:54about whether the protests can be
1:40:57channeled and really act as a
1:40:59counterpoint, as a force that opposes
1:41:02Bolsonaro's government. It seems to me
1:41:06that it’s just those protests, right?
1:41:09Even because of the form of the
1:41:11struggle, right? But I tell you, and
1:41:13this is my personal opinion, of course,
1:41:17but here in Rio, at least, the type of
1:41:23protest we had this Sunday has been
1:41:27very different from the type of protest
1:41:31that we usually have from the calls of
1:41:35the left. It was a more popular protest
1:41:38, it was a protest with people who
1:41:40don't always take to the streets. It
1:41:44was a protest, it was really a protest,
1:41:50a formal political act, right? It was
1:41:55actually a protest and that has power,
1:41:58it has strength, and it has the
1:42:00capacity to be the seed of something
1:42:03new, of building struggle, which is the
1:42:06real capacity of our class's struggle,
1:42:09right? So I see it very positively. Of
1:42:14course, we have to see what happens
1:42:16next, right? But it seems to me that we
1:42:19have a path there.
1:42:24Right, Caro. Well, I think I managed to
1:42:31understand the meaning of the question
1:42:33about neoliberalism that Gabi pointed
1:42:35out. I would like to point out, and
1:42:38also taking advantage of the space, two
1:42:40issues: one in perspective of the
1:42:42question and another a concern, let's
1:42:44say, that concerns us right now in
1:42:46Colombia. I believe that the, let's say
1:42:50, the deepening of the crisis of
1:42:53capitalism, mediated by this COVID
1:42:55pandemic, puts us at a very important
1:42:58turning point. It is a turning point to
1:43:01look at how the way out of the crisis
1:43:02is built. And it is either a way out
1:43:05that opens up much more favorable
1:43:07scenarios of possibility for the
1:43:09popular classes and the working classes
1:43:11, or it is a way out, let's say, that
1:43:13allows for strengthening a much more
1:43:16conservative management of capitalism.
1:43:18And I think that we have to evaluate it
1:43:20in that order. I am not sure if it is,
1:43:23let us say, appropriate to point it out
1:43:25, but I think it is important to put it
1:43:27on the table, as perhaps we have not
1:43:29been able to work on it more broadly
1:43:31today; these are also the same tensions
1:43:33observed within the power bloc, because
1:43:35sometimes, we see it as if it were a
1:43:36very solid thing. And I believe that,
1:43:41these alliances that have been proposed
1:43:43, like this great progressive alliance
1:43:46that links the most liberal sectors of
1:43:48the ruling classes, driven by Stiglitz
1:43:51or others, begin to warn us about some
1:43:54issues that I think we must point out.
1:43:58I believe that today we cannot continue
1:44:00to allow the management of the crisis
1:44:03or the solution from the sectors in
1:44:05resistance to be a more humane
1:44:06capitalism. I think you cannot try to
1:44:09put a human face on what has in effect
1:44:12demonstrated all its inhumanity. I
1:44:14think these alternatives that seek to
1:44:17reform capitalism to ensure its
1:44:19sustainability are very dangerous and I
1:44:21think we must be able to warn and
1:44:23realize this. I say this precisely
1:44:26because I believe there was some
1:44:27mention of this proposal that was made
1:44:29regarding the Great Social Democratic
1:44:31International. The truth is I do not
1:44:33remember the name at this moment, but
1:44:34they are not posing a critique of
1:44:36capitalism to us. And I believe that
1:44:39here it is not simply a matter of a
1:44:41critique of neoliberalism, but rather
1:44:43that the pandemic has shown us that the
1:44:45capitalist social system is a system
1:44:47that lacks the conditions to guarantee
1:44:49dignified living conditions for
1:44:51everyone worldwide; that it is a system
1:44:53that is not sustainable in terms of the
1:44:55relationship with nature. Julio warned
1:44:58about this in his presentation. So, I
1:45:01think this crisis puts us at a turning
1:45:03point to dispute the exit from the
1:45:05crisis. And that dispute over the exit
1:45:08from the crisis must really be about
1:45:10thinking of anticapitalist horizons and
1:45:13horizons that do not finally lead to
1:45:15managing and making capitalism more
1:45:17humane or a little more democratic in
1:45:19its tints. And in that sense, that is
1:45:23why I also insist on the need to study
1:45:25the ruling classes with a perspective
1:45:27of being able to assess what tensions
1:45:29exist within them, in this global power
1:45:31bloc, those tensions that become a bit
1:45:33visible in all this critique that
1:45:35Stiglitz and others develop, against
1:45:37the more reactionary sectors. I wanted
1:45:40to say that a bit in perspective, in
1:45:42that order. I do not believe there is a
1:45:44complete crisis in terms of hegemonic
1:45:47capacity, but there are spaces to
1:45:49finish building, let us say, or to dent
1:45:51that hegemonic capacity of capitalism.
1:45:54because some questions asked if
1:45:56individualism had prevailed and so on,
1:45:58but I believe that during the pandemic,
1:46:01and Marina and Julio pointed this out,
1:46:03it has become visible that only through
1:46:05the solidarity and organizational
1:46:07capacity of the people can they survive
1:46:09. And so there is talk that community
1:46:12kitchens were recovered; there is talk
1:46:14that this sense of neighborhood,
1:46:16popular, collective management was
1:46:18recovered, which shows us that
1:46:20neoliberalism did not really manage to
1:46:22instill a sense of individualism in all
1:46:24of society, but rather that the sectors
1:46:26, especially the popular ones, continue
1:46:28to preserve that self-managing,
1:46:30collective, organizational, and
1:46:31solidary capacity that has allowed this
1:46:34situation not to be more dramatic than
1:46:36what is already being experienced. I
1:46:39believe it is these sectors and this
1:46:41capacity that have allowed the crisis
1:46:43and the humanitarian drama not to be
1:46:45much greater. And I think it is
1:46:47important to value that. And I conclude
1:46:51by pointing out that for us it is very
1:46:53important and we make a bit of a call
1:46:56to value the peace process in Colombia
1:46:58from a regional perspective. We call
1:47:01for valuing that the arrival of these
1:47:03United States troops, or this security
1:47:06force to be more precise with the terms
1:47:08, is not just a threat to Colombia and
1:47:10Venezuela, but is a threat to regional
1:47:12stability. For us, it is very important
1:47:16that it can be maintained, even though
1:47:18the failure to comply with the peace
1:47:20process has been significant, we
1:47:22continue to fight as the Colombian
1:47:24people because we have realized that it
1:47:26is possible to advance in building a
1:47:29society without war being the central
1:47:31axis of mediation. So, I also want to
1:47:35invite you to join us in this struggle
1:47:38and in this demand, so that President
1:47:41Duque's government respects the final
1:47:43peace agreement signed in Havana and
1:47:49does not attempt to ignore or modify it
1:47:51, as has been pointed out during these
1:47:53weeks of the pandemic as well.
1:47:57Thanks, Caro. Julio, would you like to?
1:48:00We have very little time left, we only
1:48:02have 10 minutes left, we have to start
1:48:04wrapping up. A comment that just came
1:48:06in says that if we are talking about
1:48:08Marxism over Zoom, a comrade says, then
1:48:10it is logical that it cuts off.
1:48:13Very good, very good.
1:48:14We need to change networks.
1:48:17First, I strongly agree with Carolina
1:48:19and Marina when they bring up this
1:48:22recovery of solidarity as well. I think
1:48:25that is very important, don't you? And
1:48:26there is a question that spoke a lot
1:48:28about individualism, about consumerism,
1:48:31right? No, there is also solidarity and
1:48:33I think we have to learn from everyday
1:48:36experience. And one of the questions I
1:48:38am being asked is about the Vicentin
1:48:40case. I will explain. In Argentina
1:48:42yesterday, the president announced the
1:48:45intervention and the submission of a
1:48:48bill to Parliament to expropriate the
1:48:51Vicentin Group, one of the major
1:48:53operators in Argentina's oilseed
1:48:56complex, an agribusiness exporter
1:48:58linked to multinational food and
1:49:01biotechnology corporations. It is an
1:49:04emblematic issue that gives us a lot to
1:49:06talk about. This has sparked a very
1:49:09strong theoretical and political debate
1:49:11in Argentina that will last for a long
1:49:13time. There isn't enough time to
1:49:17explain it in depth, but for the
1:49:18comrade asking about the topic, well,
1:49:20now comes the debate over how this
1:49:22story will end, how we move forward,
1:49:24and how it concludes. It will be up to
1:49:28the Argentine people to define whether
1:49:30this expropriation is meant to maintain
1:49:33the export agribusiness model or if it
1:49:36serves to begin a path of transforming
1:49:38the productive and development model
1:49:41associated with transnationalization
1:49:43and Argentina's subordinate integration
1:49:45into the global market. Of course, this
1:49:49is not the best moment in our Americas
1:49:52to think about cooperation or
1:49:54alternative integration, but in the
1:49:57last decade, much progress was made on
1:50:00a program of non-subordinate
1:50:02integration. And it seems to me that
1:50:05the peoples of our Americas have
1:50:07contributed much through historical
1:50:09struggles and the construction of a
1:50:11program, and it's not about being
1:50:13pessimistic or optimistic, but about
1:50:16gathering the best of our peoples '
1:50:18tradition of struggle. And just as
1:50:21Carolina raises the perspective of the
1:50:24struggle for peace in Colombia, we
1:50:27should think about the vindication of
1:50:30the historical struggles of enslaved
1:50:33workers and peoples in Brazil. I use
1:50:37these countries as examples because
1:50:40that's where we are, and we shouldn't
1:50:43trust half-measures; rather, what we
1:50:45must fight for, regarding the
1:50:47expropriation of a major economic group
1:50:50, is for deep transformations that
1:50:52initiate a perspective of transition.
1:50:56More than one person will say we are
1:50:58crazy. Well, Gabriela just mentioned a
1:51:01Marxist debate in this time of a strong
1:51:03offensive by capital. We are crazy, we
1:51:06are a little crazy. It is about
1:51:09resisting. That is what we are doing.
1:51:11This is theoretical resistance,
1:51:13ideological resistance. Let's generate
1:51:15the best conditions for thought to
1:51:17critically analyze reality and
1:51:19transform it, because that is what it's
1:51:21all about.
1:51:23All yours, Gabi.
1:51:25Thank you very much, comrades. Uh,
1:51:29that's what we're trying to contribute
1:51:30to, right? To generate another voice,
1:51:34another common sense, uh, so we can
1:51:36propose another perspective; even if
1:51:39they call us crazy, even if it seems
1:51:41like things, uh, that are no longer in
1:51:44style, but we have to start proposing
1:51:46something alternative, uh, because
1:51:48otherwise it seems the only thing left
1:51:51for us is capitalist realism, right?
1:51:55There is no horizon beyond capitalism.
1:51:59But there is a horizon, because
1:52:00capitalism is leading us to an
1:52:02inhumanity, right? To people having to
1:52:07die because there are no hospital beds,
1:52:09because there are no ventilators. And
1:52:12it's not that they aren't there because
1:52:15we lack the scientific or technical
1:52:18capacity to produce them, but because
1:52:20what governs is valuation, profit, gain
1:52:24, and, uh, not the health and
1:52:26well-being of the population. So, we
1:52:29have to, uh, aim to have another life,
1:52:32another social organization, where the
1:52:35core and the main priority is people's
1:52:38lives and not the business owners'
1:52:40profits. And we have to start saying
1:52:43that it is possible and that it can be
1:52:46done, and that the way we live is not
1:52:48what's appropriate, not what's right,
1:52:50and not what's the most human, the most
1:52:52solidary. And there is resistance,
1:52:56there are, uh, these nuclei of
1:52:58resistance based on solidarity and
1:53:00mutual aid. Uh, and we have to start
1:53:03from there, we have to recover that and
1:53:06reflect on it, right? Because theory is
1:53:09also a weapon that allows us, uh, to
1:53:11break with what the media tells us,
1:53:14with common sense. And well, that is
1:53:18what we are going to contribute with
1:53:20these talks, uh, as far as we can reach
1:53:22. Uh, so well, I want to thank you all.
1:53:26I want to repeat, to invite those who
1:53:29are interested, those who want to take
1:53:31the course on Marxist critique of the
1:53:33world economy, which starts now on June
1:53:3617; there is still time to sign up, to
1:53:38read the bulletin, to share it. They
1:53:42are short notes, we try to make them
1:53:44short, easy-to-read notes to be able to
1:53:46understand, uh, these changes that we
1:53:48are immersed in and that we are living
1:53:50through. And well, thank you to
1:53:54everyone who has been here for these 2
1:53:56hours listening, asking questions, uh,
1:53:59no, surely there are some questions
1:54:01left pending, but we will return to
1:54:03take them up, uh, in the next meeting,
1:54:06which we'll see when we can schedule.
1:54:10So if you want to say any final
1:54:12reflection, a final sentence, uh, we
1:54:15can wrap up on my end. Uh, thank you so
1:54:19much to CLACSO once again for giving us
1:54:21the space, the opportunity, and the
1:54:23outreach, right? Marina, I would like
1:54:26to extend an invitation that I had
1:54:29meant to make but had forgotten. For
1:54:33those of you interested in reading Marx
1:54:36, in Marx’s work, I am currently
1:54:38giving a course on Capital, reading
1:54:40chapter by chapter. We have 8,000
1:54:45registered participants reading the
1:54:47book Capital, which is excellent, right
1:54:50? And a team of 19 people who are
1:54:53voluntarily doing the Spanish subtitles
1:54:57. So, I had promised the
1:55:00Spanish-speaking community that if
1:55:02anyone is interested—I didn't bring
1:55:04the link, but you can search for my
1:55:06name on Google if anyone is interested.
1:55:10Sure.
1:55:11That's great. Caro, Julio, and Caro. I
1:55:20want to thank CLACSO and all the
1:55:22colleagues who connected, followed
1:55:25along, and for the greetings they are
1:55:27sending. A warm and solidarity-filled
1:55:31hug to everyone, who in the midst of
1:55:33this lockdown, continue trying to think
1:55:36about how to build a fairer and more
1:55:39dignified world for all. Thank you very
1:55:42much.
1:55:43A pleasure to share this with everyone.
1:55:46Uh, very good questions, very good
1:55:48participation, and let's hope we do
1:55:49this again soon. See you later.
1:55:52Well, see you later. Thanks, everyone.
1:55:55Thanks, Pablo. Thank you very much. Uh,
1:55:57very interesting. Thanks to everyone.
1:55:59Carolina, Marina, Julio, Gabriela, and
1:56:01to all the participants.
1:56:03Thank you. Will the video be recorded?
1:56:05Yes, the video will be there. Natalia
1:56:07will send it shortly so that you can
1:56:08also share it on social media. Yes, the
1:56:10video will be recorded.
1:56:12That's great. Thanks. Bye.
1:56:14Bye. Bye.

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