connecting convo andy craig 01 — Transcript

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1. 0:00thank you for joining us for the
2. 0:01disinformation misinformation and fake
3. 0:04news teach out
4. 0:05i'm julia one of your mentors i'm a
5. 0:07graduate fellow for teachouts at the
6. 0:09center for academic innovation
7. 0:11and i'm here at the university of
8. 0:13michigan where i study learning design
9. 0:14and information science
10. 0:16i'm here with craig steffen and andy
11. 0:18hoffman and we're going to talk through
12. 0:19some of the connections that learners
13. 0:21have made throughout the course of the
14. 0:22teachout
15. 0:23would you two mind reintroducing
16. 0:24yourselves for the teach-out learners
17. 0:27i'm craig steffen i got a
18. 0:30phd in physics many years ago spent my
19. 0:34career at
20. 0:35ford research labs and later at argonne
21. 0:38national labs
22. 0:40i worked on a number of different
23. 0:41projects but perhaps most relevantly for
24. 0:44this uh looked at the environment
25. 0:46environmental consequences of different
26. 0:48types of
27. 0:49of vehicles whether they're conventional
28. 0:52ones or
29. 0:53hybrid vehicles or electric vehicles
30. 0:56i retired some years ago i joined uh the
31. 0:59osher
32. 1:00lifelong learning institute uh which is
33. 1:03a group of people who want to continue
34. 1:06their educations there's a university of
35. 1:07michigan chapter
36. 1:08uh which i'm a member of i'm also a
37. 1:12member of the citizens climate lobby
38. 1:15and have spent some time in trying to
39. 1:18uh lobby for a carbon fian dividend and
40. 1:22talk to a number of people about doing
41. 1:25wonderful i'm andy yeah i'm andy hoffman
42. 1:28i'm the wholesome professor
43. 1:30of sustainable enterprise at the
44. 1:31university of michigan i held joint
45. 1:33appointments at the ross school of
46. 1:35business
47. 1:36and the school for environment
48. 1:37sustainability i was a faculty mentor
49. 1:39this year in the program and uh this
50. 1:42issue of public engagement is
51. 1:44something i've been long interested in i
52. 1:46organized a michigan meeting on the
53. 1:47topic in 2015
54. 1:49and i'm on the committee that organizes
55. 1:51the sackler colloquia
56. 1:52for the science of science communication
57. 1:54at the national academies of sciences
58. 1:56wonderful thank you both so much for
59. 1:59being here i'm sure our learners are
60. 2:00going to benefit
61. 2:01so much from your expertise so let's go
62. 2:04ahead with questions
63. 2:06so the first one i'm going to start off
64. 2:08with is something that learners brought
65. 2:10up
66. 2:10a lot when um watching the videos that
67. 2:13andy you contributed to the teach out
68. 2:16um and craig i think with your
69. 2:17background you're also going to have a
70. 2:18lot of
71. 2:19experience in answering this question so
72. 2:22um
73. 2:22learners were wondering how individual
74. 2:24beliefs
75. 2:25across countries cultures religions etc
76. 2:28um they can really influence how someone
77. 2:30perceives a scientific topic
78. 2:32so what advice do either of you have for
79. 2:34someone who's communicating
80. 2:36about scientific topics and is facing
81. 2:38resistance because of their audience's
82. 2:40beliefs
83. 2:41um andy why don't you go first for this
84. 2:43one sure i'd be glad to
85. 2:45um this this is very important for
86. 2:47thinking about communication
87. 2:48um you have to understand where your
88. 2:50audience is coming from and so you have
89. 2:52to find a frame
90. 2:53that resonates for them i talk to
91. 2:56business audiences so i frame
92. 2:59the issues i care about around
93. 3:00environment in in business language um
94. 3:04you have to figure out who you're going
95. 3:05to invoke certain
96. 3:07individuals represent let's call it the
97. 3:10tribe of which we're apart
98. 3:12we've become very tribal in this country
99. 3:14and so
100. 3:15certain spokespeople may maybe represent
101. 3:17one tribe and another i can offer you
102. 3:19two names
103. 3:20i could do this to any audience one of
104. 3:22the names i'm willing to bet
105. 3:24people will hear it and go i'm not going
106. 3:25to believe a word that person says and
107. 3:26the other i will believe everything they
108. 3:28say
109. 3:28rush limbaugh al gore on climate change
110. 3:31uh
111. 3:32which news sources represent your
112. 3:35tribe's uh
113. 3:36beliefs fox news and pr totally
114. 3:39different approaches
115. 3:40totally different credibility but find
116. 3:42the frame that works for the audience
117. 3:43you're speaking to
118. 3:44invoke speakers or representatives that
119. 3:47will resonate with that audience
120. 3:49if i'm talking to somebody who sees for
121. 3:52example climate change as a religious
122. 3:53issue
123. 3:54i'm not going to try and quote bible i'm
124. 3:55going to i'm going to invoke
125. 3:57statements by the pope or uh evangelical
126. 4:01leaders or jewish leaders
127. 4:02as a way to get through to them so let's
128. 4:04understand your audience is the
129. 4:06bottom line craig do you have anything
130. 4:09to add
131. 4:10no i certainly agree with with what andy
132. 4:13said uh perhaps one thing
133. 4:14is finding common ground with
134. 4:17other people that you're talking to uh
135. 4:20if it's on a scientific subject
136. 4:22or or climate change find some area
137. 4:25where you
138. 4:26you agree and discuss
139. 4:29why you're in agreement and then move
140. 4:32the topic to
141. 4:33to the one at hand i think another
142. 4:35important point is to
143. 4:37show the your audience that you're
144. 4:39listening to them that it's not
145. 4:40you're just trying to convince them but
146. 4:42you're trying to understand
147. 4:44their point of view as well so to build
148. 4:47some
149. 4:47some trust between you and and the
150. 4:49people you're talking to
151. 4:51and and if i can add to that i think
152. 4:53craig hit on a really important point
153. 4:55this is about overcoming distrust
154. 4:57you may be talking to people that don't
155. 4:59trust scientists
156. 5:00or they think you're liberal or democrat
157. 5:04and if you can find ways for that common
158. 5:06ground
159. 5:08you don't come in and start lecturing
160. 5:10you don't use phraseology like well the
161. 5:12literature says
162. 5:13x that is very disarming that is very
163. 5:17it leaves people at a loss if they don't
164. 5:19know the literature they're going to be
165. 5:20very cautious about engaging
166. 5:22and you're trying to build trust and
167. 5:23that's key
168. 5:27yeah that makes a lot of sense thank you
169. 5:30um
170. 5:30so next question um this is one that
171. 5:33kind of
172. 5:33came through in my view almost all of
173. 5:37the discussion boards
174. 5:38not just the ones that um related to the
175. 5:40content that greg and andy
176. 5:42uh you were associated with in the
177. 5:44teachout um but it was kind of across
178. 5:46the board a theme
179. 5:47in the teach-out discussion boards so um
180. 5:50many learners mentioned that they're
181. 5:51curious about how
182. 5:52experts in the sciences and in science
183. 5:55communication
184. 5:56such as yourselves keep personal biases
185. 5:59from trickling
186. 6:00into your work when confronting topics
187. 6:01that can be divisive
188. 6:03like climate change for instance is a
189. 6:05big one um so how do you think about
190. 6:07bias
191. 6:08both your own and others when
192. 6:09communicating on scientific topics
193. 6:12and correct why don't we start with you
194. 6:13this time okay well
195. 6:15as a retired scientist at any rate
196. 6:18i will certainly agree scientists can be
197. 6:20biased just like anyone else
198. 6:22uh there's a saying about
199. 6:27paradigm shifts in in science that
200. 6:29they're measured not by the number of
201. 6:31conversions but by the number of
202. 6:32funerals
203. 6:33if you invested your whole career in in
204. 6:36one paradigm
205. 6:37it's going to take a lot to overcome
206. 6:39that bias and make and make you switch
207. 6:42on the other hand i think scientists
208. 6:45uh more than than many people are
209. 6:48trained
210. 6:49to look for bias in in what they're
211. 6:51doing if you publish a paper
212. 6:54uh that confirms this this bias that you
213. 6:57have
214. 6:57and you've overlooked something you're
215. 6:59going to be very quickly brought to task
216. 7:02so scientists at least try to overcome
217. 7:05those those biases
218. 7:08i think another ramification of that is
219. 7:10that
220. 7:11scientists can be perceived as being
221. 7:13very wishy-washy
222. 7:14that they'll say it's likely that this
223. 7:16is the case but they won't come out and
224. 7:18say yes this is the case
225. 7:20uh and politicians don't like that they
226. 7:22like uh certainty
227. 7:24so i think they're two sides of the same
228. 7:27coin you want to
229. 7:28be cautious to avoid bias but you also
230. 7:32want to come through
231. 7:33as uh uh
232. 7:36convinced that what you are saying
233. 7:38within the limits of
234. 7:39of its validity is right
235. 7:43definitely and i i would add to this
236. 7:45everybody has a bias
237. 7:48the key that scientists can bring
238. 7:51to the game is is is they can recognize
239. 7:53their own
240. 7:55and then make corrections i will
241. 7:57deliberately
242. 7:58read content that represents a view that
243. 8:01i might not share i
244. 8:03uh whether it's certain news sources or
245. 8:07literature i like to understand where
246. 8:09other people are coming from
247. 8:11and then recognize when
248. 8:13[Music]
249. 8:14you are bringing the bias of the academy
250. 8:16with you um
251. 8:18the fact is the academy is a
252. 8:20left-leaning institution
253. 8:22some of my colleagues get really angry
254. 8:23when i say that but surveys show it's
255. 8:25true
256. 8:27liberals outnumber conservatives 18 to 1
257. 8:30in history departments
258. 8:32that's the most extreme four to one
259. 8:36in law schools we are in a liberal
260. 8:40institution and so you can correct for
261. 8:42that i do try and bring speakers to
262. 8:44class that represent more conservative
263. 8:45views
264. 8:46i do read more conservative literature
265. 8:48to try and de-bias myself
266. 8:50and then secondly be respectful of where
267. 8:54other people are coming from
268. 8:56when i talk about the resistance that
269. 8:58people have for example to accepting
270. 9:00the reality of climate change one of the
271. 9:02elements of this conversation is people
272. 9:05for some people believe in climate
273. 9:06change is a threat to their belief in
274. 9:07god
275. 9:08i got heckled once in a talk by someone
276. 9:10holding up a bible saying
277. 9:12god promised noah he would never flood
278. 9:13the earth again the seas can't be rising
279. 9:16now i've said that in academic seminars
280. 9:18and i've heard audible laughter
281. 9:20and i try and stop it right there and
282. 9:22say stop
283. 9:23if you want to reach people like this
284. 9:25you have to respect their views
285. 9:28and then try and approach them in a way
286. 9:29that's disarming
287. 9:31because if you're going to try and
288. 9:32convince somebody that climate change is
289. 9:34real
290. 9:35when their religious beliefs stand in
291. 9:37the way
292. 9:39science isn't going to do it you have to
293. 9:41reach them where they are as craig said
294. 9:42you have to build that trust
295. 9:44and also understand how they see you you
296. 9:47know if i
297. 9:48go out to the central part of michigan
298. 9:50i'm seen as
299. 9:52a liberal professor from that sodom and
300. 9:54gomorrah city called
301. 9:55ann arbor and um they're going to be
302. 9:58suspect
303. 9:59you can win them over but understand
304. 10:01where you're starting from
305. 10:04i think i i'd add too there's perhaps a
306. 10:07sort of triage that one has to do
307. 10:09there's some people who are already
308. 10:10convinced
309. 10:11of what you're trying to convince people
310. 10:13of and there are others
311. 10:15like uh andy's uh example of the uh
312. 10:19the bible thumper no matter what you say
313. 10:22are not going to be convinced and
314. 10:23there's no point in wasting your time
315. 10:25uh trying to reach that audience what
316. 10:27you want to reach
317. 10:29are those people who are open to an
318. 10:32open discussion and concentrate your
319. 10:34efforts on that
320. 10:36but i would uh craig just respectfully
321. 10:39agree i think you can
322. 10:43win over people i wouldn't call them
323. 10:46bible thumpers
324. 10:47but i would also call out for example
325. 10:51the pope has an encyclical letter ledato
326. 10:53c
327. 10:54and he comes out in that letter he says
328. 10:57uh we have misinterpreted the genesis
329. 11:00mandate for millennia
330. 11:01the idea that nature is ours to dominate
331. 11:04as we wish is incorrect
332. 11:05on theological grounds going further to
333. 11:08say that
334. 11:09pollution is theft from future
335. 11:11generations i love that idea that you're
336. 11:14stealing a future generation's ability
337. 11:16to have a safe clean environment
338. 11:18and he backs it up with the bible
339. 11:21that to me is a way through i'm not
340. 11:24going to give my interpretation i'm not
341. 11:25a theologian
342. 11:27but i am going to stand on the shoulders
343. 11:29of
344. 11:30pope francis um bartholomew the first in
345. 11:34the
346. 11:34uh greek orthodox church and the the
347. 11:38dalai lama
348. 11:39whatever spokespeople i will need to
349. 11:41reach out
350. 11:42i will reach them and and uh julia maybe
351. 11:46you're going to get to this later but
352. 11:47this one thing i want to get in i want
353. 11:48to get it in early
354. 11:50i am on the committee at the national
355. 11:54academies to look at the science of
356. 11:56science communication
357. 11:58and i have a little problem with that
358. 12:00because
359. 12:02communication is not strictly science
360. 12:05communication is about being authentic
361. 12:07accessible genuine human
362. 12:11and if we think that we can use our
363. 12:13analytical techniques
364. 12:15to approach this as a scientific
365. 12:16endeavor we will fail
366. 12:18i liken it to sitting down with your
367. 12:20spouse and you've got a problem in your
368. 12:22marriage
369. 12:23and you start whipping out flow charts
370. 12:25and data on how you're going to work out
371. 12:26your problems
372. 12:27your spouse is going to have every right
373. 12:29to jam those pieces of paper down your
374. 12:31throat
375. 12:32you're going to approach it with
376. 12:33humility with honesty with openness
377. 12:36with joy why think about the the really
378. 12:39compelling
379. 12:41communicators of science neil degrasse
380. 12:43tyson why is he so compelling
381. 12:44he's excited he's passionate he's
382. 12:47knowledgeable he's accessible
383. 12:49catherine hey ho communicator on climate
384. 12:53change she brings all of herself to the
385. 12:55conversation
386. 12:56she's not only climate scientist she's
387. 12:57an evangelical christian
388. 12:59and she weaves the multiple aspects of
389. 13:01her life together
390. 13:03in communicating these issues on a human
391. 13:06level and i think that that's extremely
392. 13:08important too many scientists too many
393. 13:09academics think
394. 13:10that this is purely a scientific
395. 13:12question on how to communicate
396. 13:14and it is not
397. 13:18on a personal note my father is a
398. 13:19physician and he's also a um
399. 13:22very very strict catholic um i grew up
400. 13:25very catholic as well and
401. 13:27uh you know for a long time i kind of
402. 13:30avoided this the topic of climate change
403. 13:32because i thought that
404. 13:33it would be kind of a divisive issue
405. 13:35between us but um
406. 13:37once i once we kind of got to talking
407. 13:39about it i really realized that he was
408. 13:40kind of looking at it from the
409. 13:42perspective of being a good steward of
410. 13:43the earth
411. 13:44and taking that from his religion um
412. 13:47which i thought was
413. 13:48was really was really interesting and
414. 13:50kind of showed me that that there can be
415. 13:53there can be uh a bridge to to go over
416. 13:56that gap in ideological differences
417. 13:58religious differences
418. 13:59um which is really really something i
419. 14:01think very powerful especially now
420. 14:03and i think something important and what
421. 14:04you said is that
422. 14:06you can try and convince people that
423. 14:08these issues are real
424. 14:10through the head and through the
425. 14:11intellect that will only get you so far
426. 14:15if you can connect it to the heart
427. 14:17purpose
428. 14:19you've really got power to drive change
429. 14:21that's where you really want people to
430. 14:22capture this
431. 14:24i can intellectually understand that
432. 14:25climate change is real but if i
433. 14:27connected to my spirituality my religion
434. 14:29my purpose for being here on earth my
435. 14:32caring for people around me
436. 14:34you're connecting it to love what's the
437. 14:36more powerful motivator for change
438. 14:39it's not your head it's your heart
439. 14:42and speaking of motivations for change
440. 14:44um i want to hear a little bit about
441. 14:46both of what you think about you know
442. 14:48the change in science communication over
443. 14:49time
444. 14:50so craig you mentioned that you're part
445. 14:52of ali the oshiro lifelong learning
446. 14:54institute the chapter here at michigan
447. 14:56um so as someone with a career as a
448. 14:58physicist and then also someone who now
449. 15:01helps
450. 15:01sort of cultivate lifelong learning
451. 15:04mentalities beyond those in traditional
452. 15:06education
453. 15:07um how have you seen science
454. 15:09communication
455. 15:10and sort of mentalities about science
456. 15:12change
457. 15:13over your lifetime yeah well
458. 15:17um i think it's changed quite a bit
459. 15:20you know after world war ii uh big
460. 15:23science came into its
461. 15:25its its own and the cold war between the
462. 15:29us
463. 15:29and the soviet union uh made sure that
464. 15:32that
465. 15:33science got uh kept getting funding
466. 15:37and i think a lot of scientists felt
467. 15:39there was
468. 15:40not a great need to communicate with lay
469. 15:43people
470. 15:44they were getting their funding from the
471. 15:45government and they were ready to move
472. 15:47ahead
473. 15:48uh and uh andy mentioned a couple of
474. 15:52people
475. 15:53uh i think uh going back uh
476. 15:56to uh somebody like carl sagan who was a
477. 15:59great communicator of science
478. 16:01actually was denied tenure at harvard
479. 16:04possibly because of that and certainly
480. 16:06ridiculed by
481. 16:08some scientists for for uh you know not
482. 16:11being
483. 16:12a serious science scientist
484. 16:13concentrating on research
485. 16:16and i think that's changed uh today uh
486. 16:19much for the better that scientists
487. 16:21realize
488. 16:22that they need to get public support
489. 16:25for one and that the the public really
490. 16:28is interested in science
491. 16:30so i think it's become now where a top
492. 16:33echelon scientist
493. 16:34has to have published a popular book on
494. 16:37science
495. 16:38uh to to get recognition so
496. 16:41from that standpoint i think science
497. 16:43communication with the public has
498. 16:45has definitely improved and if i could
499. 16:49accentuate what craig said i think i
500. 16:52think every
501. 16:53academic coming up through the phd
502. 16:56junior faculty
503. 16:57interested in these topics should know
504. 16:59the history of how we got here
505. 17:01and craig brings up world war ii that
506. 17:03was a turning point
507. 17:05in our approach to science in this
508. 17:06country and there's a report written by
509. 17:08vannevar bush
510. 17:09who was the president of harvard and
511. 17:12after world war ii science helped us win
512. 17:15the war
513. 17:16and so eisenhower said how can we turn
514. 17:17that to the public and van over bush
515. 17:19wrote this
516. 17:19very influential report that cemented
517. 17:23the distinction between basic research
518. 17:25and applied research
519. 17:26basis research was elevated as more
520. 17:28important
521. 17:29applied research will leave that to the
522. 17:31corporate sector they'll make money off
523. 17:33of it and so forth
524. 17:34and that bias has stayed with us and to
525. 17:37many people
526. 17:38that bias that distinction is artificial
527. 17:41and it further divides the idea of
528. 17:44engaging with the public
529. 17:45from the true the true work of an
530. 17:47academic
531. 17:48and those boundaries are starting to
532. 17:51fray people are starting to question
533. 17:53that sharp distinction particularly
534. 17:54julia your generation of scholars coming
535. 17:56in
536. 17:57yeah i got my phd uh it was pretty much
537. 18:01a standard mode that if you announced
538. 18:03your committee you didn't want to go
539. 18:04into academia some of them would have
540. 18:05quit your committee
541. 18:06what's the point i want to procreate
542. 18:09myself
543. 18:10through my students today there are too
544. 18:13many of you that are thinking that way
545. 18:15if we flushed out everyone in the
546. 18:17doctoral program
547. 18:18who had questions about whether they
548. 18:19wanted to go in academia we'd have a
549. 18:21very thin
550. 18:22set of ranks for junior faculty going
551. 18:24forward but old habits die hard and
552. 18:27and craig brings up carl sagan there is
553. 18:29something
554. 18:30that has been colloquially referred to
555. 18:32as the sagan effect
556. 18:34and if you are engaging with the public
557. 18:35you're a less serious academic
558. 18:37and that that will that will die slowly
559. 18:41but there are more and more people
560. 18:43coming forward
561. 18:44what you're doing in your program here
562. 18:46more and more young people want to
563. 18:47change this
564. 18:48i would add one more piece of this we're
565. 18:50talking about the role of the academic
566. 18:52but in public this is critical to more
567. 18:55and more people are talking about
568. 18:56science
569. 18:57um again on the issue of climate change
570. 18:59which i write a lot about
571. 19:01yale university does a survey every year
572. 19:03it's a six america study
573. 19:05there's one question i always watch do
574. 19:06you talk about climate change with
575. 19:08family or friends
576. 19:09it's always stayed flat around 25
577. 19:10percent the rest of the 75 percent
578. 19:12avoid the topic it's impolite it's it's
579. 19:15like sex politics and religion you don't
580. 19:17bring it up in polite company
581. 19:19last year it changed to 40 percent
582. 19:21people said enough
583. 19:23i'm going to start speaking out on this
584. 19:24issue you could say climate change is a
585. 19:26hoax
586. 19:26i'm going to hold your feet to the fire
587. 19:28and that's good that's good to have
588. 19:29people in the general public
589. 19:31starting to talk about these issues
590. 19:33because they affect us all in daily life
591. 19:36now i think one thing that is that has
592. 19:38precipitated that as well is the fact
593. 19:40that
594. 19:41in particular in climate change we are
595. 19:43now seeing
596. 19:44the effects you know a few years ago it
597. 19:47was something in the hazy future
598. 19:49and people aren't uh uh
599. 19:53evolve to to worry too much about the
600. 19:55hazy future
601. 19:56and when you can point to fires in
602. 19:59california and floods everywhere and
603. 20:01extreme storms and everything
604. 20:03uh it hits home that climate change is
605. 20:06is real and we need to do something
606. 20:08about it
607. 20:09and in the words of tip o'neill the
608. 20:11former speaker of the house he said all
609. 20:13politics is local
610. 20:15you'll be far more compelled julia when
611. 20:17you're talking to your father you can
612. 20:18have a far stronger influence
613. 20:21through that relationship than the ipcc
614. 20:24coming out with this next report
615. 20:26people relate to each other on this
616. 20:28level and as more
617. 20:30and and as you bring your ideas to him
618. 20:32he will probably pass him on to somebody
619. 20:34else and this is how ideas diffuse
620. 20:37a lot of people think we just gotta have
621. 20:38that killer silver bullet from the top
622. 20:40down that's just gonna get this uh
623. 20:42acceptance of the idea
624. 20:45but it happens one-on-one it happens in
625. 20:47small groups it happens in talks it
626. 20:49happens in direct contact
627. 20:51it's not just the next paper absolutely
628. 20:54that's a great point um so we're on to
629. 20:57our last question
630. 20:59already this has been such a great
631. 21:00conversation um
632. 21:02so learners are also really interested
633. 21:04in how to create
634. 21:05more and this is actually sorry back up
635. 21:08so this is actually a great segue
636. 21:10to our next and last question um
637. 21:13learners are also really interested
638. 21:15in how to create more information and
639. 21:16science literate societies
640. 21:18so from both your views what are some
641. 21:21ways in which we can build communities
642. 21:22that are less susceptible to
643. 21:24miss and disinformation in the sciences
644. 21:27and how do we create communities that
645. 21:29have these sort of lifelong learning
646. 21:31mentalities like the ones we see
647. 21:33at ollie uh craig why don't we go first
648. 21:35with them
649. 21:36okay i don't have any wonderful answers
650. 21:40to that question
651. 21:41unfortunately without trying to be too
652. 21:45political i think
653. 21:46one requirement is or at least one
654. 21:50great help would be to have an
655. 21:53administration
656. 21:54that tries to unite people uh rather
657. 21:57than
658. 21:59so discord uh
659. 22:02uh people need to be able to communicate
660. 22:04with each other
661. 22:06and see that the other side is not a
662. 22:08bunch of monsters
663. 22:09uh in order to uh to to have effective
664. 22:13dialogues
665. 22:15uh another point i would make is that
666. 22:18um uh
667. 22:21people need to be more skeptical in in
668. 22:25the
669. 22:25in the positive sort of way learn to be
670. 22:28more skeptical
671. 22:29and as far as i'm concerned uh we should
672. 22:32have courses in
673. 22:33in grade school and high school just
674. 22:35like this one
675. 22:36but geared to to children of that age
676. 22:39showing them how to
677. 22:40recognize misin information showing them
678. 22:43how to be
679. 22:44skeptical and uh
680. 22:48just not accept anything that that's
681. 22:49told to them uh that's a long-term
682. 22:52solution but i think it's something that
683. 22:54that
684. 22:55needs to be done absolutely i mean
685. 22:58julia you've hit on the question this is
686. 23:01the issue
687. 23:02um the rand corporation
688. 23:05um which is largely a
689. 23:09military think tank uh did a study
690. 23:12and i recommend all your mentor
691. 23:15your group read it's called truth decay
692. 23:18and it's a study and they came four
693. 23:20primary conclusions
694. 23:22number one we are debating facts in this
695. 23:24country right now we're debating facts
696. 23:26two we're blurring facts and opinion and
697. 23:29i think that's critically important
698. 23:30as i read news i will read the facts
699. 23:33that they're presenting and then they'll
700. 23:34read
701. 23:35how they're trying to tell us how to
702. 23:36think about those facts and that should
703. 23:38make you back up
704. 23:39number three we are distrusting
705. 23:41previously trusted sources of
706. 23:43information otherwise
707. 23:44known as the university and number four
708. 23:46we've never seen anything like this
709. 23:48and social media is a big part of that
710. 23:51and
711. 23:53they conclude by saying this is the
712. 23:54existential crisis of our time
713. 23:57if we can't solve this we can solve
714. 23:58nothing else
715. 24:00how do you address climate change how do
716. 24:02you dress covid
717. 24:03if you can't even agree that this thing
718. 24:05is real
719. 24:06and so that requires improving the
720. 24:08scientific literary literacy of the
721. 24:10public
722. 24:11and improving the social literacy of
723. 24:14scientists of the academy
724. 24:16both and so that means i think
725. 24:19that we have to step into the fray first
726. 24:22of all
727. 24:23who else can overcome this it's our
728. 24:26it's our it's our reason for being in
729. 24:28academia
730. 24:29is is to to inform to educate
731. 24:33to develop knowledge and to pass it on
732. 24:36jane lubchenko when she was the
733. 24:38president of the aaas gave us her speech
734. 24:41science's social contract we have an
735. 24:43obligation to society to do this
736. 24:46i think to improve the scientific
737. 24:47literary literacy of the public though
738. 24:49it's not just giving them
739. 24:50the results of our work we need to tell
740. 24:53people how this works
741. 24:54how does science work what can it do
742. 24:56what can't it do recognize the limits of
743. 24:58what it can't do
744. 25:00but also tell it how does it come to its
745. 25:02conclusions
746. 25:04people don't know that they don't
747. 25:06understand how science works they don't
748. 25:08understand how we reach our conclusions
749. 25:09they really don't understand the
750. 25:10scientific method
751. 25:12and so we need to we need to go down to
752. 25:14basics
753. 25:15and teach people at that level beyond
754. 25:17that
755. 25:18how do you foster a hunger for
756. 25:21continuous learning
757. 25:25that's you know that's the challenge of
758. 25:27every professor in a classroom
759. 25:29how do you get your students engaged you
760. 25:31got to make it you got to make it
761. 25:32exciting you got to make it fun you got
762. 25:34to make excess
763. 25:35sexy you got to make it desirable there
764. 25:37will always be those people that just
765. 25:39constantly strive for more knowledge but
766. 25:41others
767. 25:42they're going to have to be sort of
768. 25:43brought in at where they
769. 25:45are and whether that's through
770. 25:49videos or blogs or public speaking or
771. 25:53games or music or movies or
772. 25:56art whatever it is we need all the
773. 25:59channels
774. 25:59to communicate science and we can have a
775. 26:02role in that there are plenty of
776. 26:03scientists that inform
777. 26:05you know you know tv shows crime dramas
778. 26:09there's scientists that help
779. 26:10make those things work and make sure
780. 26:13they get the science right when they do
781. 26:14it
782. 26:14there are many ways to educate the
783. 26:16public beyond just getting straight
784. 26:17lectures
785. 26:18at places like ali which is wonderful
786. 26:20but there are
787. 26:22many many platforms for educating the
788. 26:23public that we should all think about
789. 26:25using
790. 26:26absolutely well we have reached the end
791. 26:29of our time here today with craig and
792. 26:31andy
793. 26:32uh thank you both so much for giving
794. 26:34your time to address some of the
795. 26:35connections that our learners have made
796. 26:38learners thank you so much for tuning in
797. 26:40to this teach out on disinformation
798. 26:42misinformation
799. 26:43and fake news at the university of
800. 26:46michigan
801. 26:48oh good ending kitty