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Colonel Murders Two Women, Then Realizes Detective Won't Give Him Respect | Russell Williams — Transcript

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0:00But you and I both know
0:02you were at Jessica Lloyd's house and I
0:05need to know why.
0:06>> All I know is sick. That's
0:08>> Well, you need to explain it. What's the
0:10issue you're struggling with?
0:12>> It's hard to believe this, isn't that?
0:13>> Why is that? We believe that there was a
0:15sexual component to that crime as well.
0:17>> This is Colonel Russell Williams, wing
0:20commander of Canada's largest Air Force
0:22base, elite pilot for the Queen of
0:25England, and the prime [music] minister.
0:27For 23 years, his rank wasn't just a job
0:30title. It was his identity. Printed on
0:33every form of identification,
0:36acknowledged at every formal encounter.
0:38From doctors to lawyers to fellow
0:41officers, everyone addressed him as
0:43Colonel Williams. It gave him power,
0:46respect, control. But behind closed
0:49doors, Williams was living a double
0:52life. breaking into homes, stealing
0:55women's underwear, and escalating to
0:57violent sexual assaults. By early 2010,
1:01two women had been murdered. One of
1:03them, a military flight attendant who
1:06worked under his command. On February
1:097th, 2010, Williams walked into a police
1:12interrogation room to answer questions
1:15about a missing woman named Jessica
1:17Lloyd. And Detective Sergeant Jim Smith
1:20refused to call him Colonel.
1:224 days earlier, police had stopped
1:24Williams at a roadblock near Tweet,
1:26Ontario. They were investigating Jessica
1:29Lloyd's disappearance. A 27year-old
1:32woman who vanished from her home on
1:34January 28th. No signs of forced entry,
1:37no signs of a struggle, just tire tracks
1:40in the snow outside her house. Williams
1:43tires match the tracks at the crime
1:45scene. This is the footwear impression
1:51of the person who approached
1:54the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house.
1:57>> This is a photocopy of the boot that uh
2:01you took off your foot.
2:02>> Yeah.
2:02>> Just a little while ago. These are
2:04identical.
2:05>> When Williams arrived at Ottawa police
2:07[music] headquarters, he was calm,
2:09cooperative. He thought this was routine
2:12questioning. He had no idea that
2:14Detective Smith already knew he was
2:16guilty. And over [clears throat] the
2:18next several hours, Smith would
2:20systematically strip away Williams rank,
2:23his confidence, and his composure using
2:26bootprints, tire tracks, and a
2:29psychological strategy designed to break
2:31a man who thought he was untouchable.
2:34Watch as Smith confronts Williams with
2:36evidence he can't explain. See a man who
2:39commanded 7,000 military personnel
2:43struggle to maintain control as the
2:45walls close in. And witness the moment
2:48he realizes his military career, his
2:51reputation, and his freedom are gone.
2:54This is the interrogation of Colonel
2:57Russell Williams.
2:59A man who demanded respect. A man who
3:02piloted world leaders. And a man who's
3:04about to face a detective who refuses to
3:07give him either. Let's find out what
3:09happens.
3:17Guy was speaking with whatever night
3:19that was was Russ as well.
3:21>> Oh yeah. Took took every number I had.
3:24>> Yeah. No, they were doing some pretty
3:26thorough interviews that night.
3:27>> Yeah, absolutely.
3:29here.
3:29>> I'm just going to move your gloves here.
3:30That's a little microphone. Got to make
3:32sure there's nice and clear. Um, as you
3:33can see here, everything in this room is
3:35videaped and audio taped.
3:36>> Check.
3:37>> Uh,
3:39you ever been interviewed by the police
3:40in a in a room like this before? I
3:41>> have never been interviewed like this.
3:43>> Oh, no. Okay. No. This
3:51closest to
3:54secret clearance.
3:55>> Oh, yeah.
3:57All right. Well, again, Russell, I
3:58appreciate you coming in.
3:59>> Notice something. Detective Smi never
4:02calls him Colonel. For 23 years,
4:05everyone addressed Russell Williams by
4:07his rank. Doctors, lawyers, fellow
4:11officers, everyone called him Colonel
4:14Williams. But Smi refuses. He calls him
4:17Russell. Sometimes just Russ. This isn't
4:22an accident. By stripping away
4:24Williams's rank, Smi is stripping away
4:27his confidence, his sense of
4:29superiority. In this room, Williams
4:32isn't a decorated officer who commands
4:357,000 personnel. He's just Russell, a
4:39suspect, and Smi is in control.
4:42>> An investigation like this, I mean, I'm
4:43sure you can appreciate it's been big
4:44news uh she down below way. Um, and you
4:49know, obviously our approach to cases
4:51like this is that, uh, uh, we don't give
4:53up on somebody being alive until we get
4:56evidence that they're not. So, um,
4:58because of that, we're treating, uh,
4:59Jessica's case as an e situation,
5:02obviously. Um, so we're we're fast
5:05forwarding things that we might normally
5:06take our time with.
5:08>> Um, and that's why we're here on a
5:10Sunday afternoon. So, uh, again, I
5:12appreciate it. Um, we're going to do a
5:15pretty thorough interview today. Okay.
5:17Um, the reason for that is because, uh,
5:19the last thing we want is to be calling
5:21people back again and again and again.
5:23Okay. Um, so what we're going to do is
5:24we're going to go over a number of
5:25things and, uh, I'm going to explain
5:27what all those are to you. Okay. Um,
5:30I'm a big coffee. I don't know if you're
5:32a a coffee guy or right in front of you.
5:35So, that goes definitely. Are they
5:39black?
5:39>> Yeah, they're just black with uh with
5:41sugar.
5:45probably a little bit.
5:46>> Sorry. What? Sorry.
5:47>> Just all [laughter]
5:49napkins there. If you want to appreciate
5:51that.
5:53>> All right. And again, um like I said,
5:54this interview is going to be very
5:55thorough. Um but again, uh I have a
5:59simple rule when I talk to people. It's
6:00uh I'm sure you're the same way. I treat
6:02people everybody with respect. I don't
6:03know why I ask cuz they do the same for
6:04me. Um so what we're going to do is
6:06we're going to start off by uh going
6:08through um what your rights are, okay?
6:10Just like everybody else. Okay? Um, have
6:13you ever been read your rights before?
6:15I'm sure you've seen on TV a whole bunch
6:16of times, but that's usually the
6:17American version. So, I'll go over with
6:19you briefly. Okay. Um, basically in
6:21Canada, uh, as you know, I'm sure, is,
6:24uh, we all have, uh, our rights
6:25guaranteed under the Charter of Rights
6:26and Freedoms. Okay. Now, uh, Russell,
6:29just to avoid any confusion, cuz people
6:30do get confused when they're talked to
6:32by the police, is that, uh, um, you're
6:34obviously not under arrest here today.
6:36Okay. Anytime you feel uh, you want to
6:38leave here, you feel free to do so. The
6:40door's not locked. will walk you down
6:41the lobby anytime you want. Okay.
6:43>> Um if there's anything that comes up in
6:46our interview today, Russell, that uh
6:48that you feel you want to talk uh to a
6:50lawyer about, um you just uh you just
6:52let me know. Okay. And the reason for
6:54that is I want to explain to you exactly
6:56what's going on here. Okay. Um
6:59Jessica uh Lloyd is um is one of uh four
7:03cases that we're currently
7:05investigating. Okay. Um, and essentially
7:07what's happened is over the past uh u
7:10about four or five months
7:13um there have been four occurrences that
7:16like I said that we're looking into. Uh
7:18two of those occurrences occurred in
7:19September of 2009 um and very briefly
7:22they were up in the the tweet area. Uh
7:25they involved uh somebody entering u two
7:27different women's houses um in the
7:29evening hours and uh committing sexual
7:32acts. Okay. Uh in uh November of 2009, a
7:37young lady by the name of uh Marie
7:39France Como um
7:41>> yeah was found uh murdered in her home
7:44in Brighton.
7:45>> And um we believe that there was a
7:47sexual component to that crime as well
7:50and um then most recently we have
7:52Jessica Lloyd's disappearance. Okay. So
7:55essentially when you're looking at those
7:56kind of crimes we're looking at a number
7:58of different uh potential criminal
7:59charges. All right. Um we're looking at
8:02issues uh all the way from the most
8:03serious one which is first-degree murder
8:06uh kidnapping uh sexual assault um break
8:09and enter with intent to commit sexual
8:10assault um forcible confinement. Okay.
8:14And uh so what I want to make sure you
8:16understand and this is what we've been
8:17doing with everybody we've been talking
8:18to is that clearly when we find out
8:20who's responsible for one or all of
8:22those crimes uh they could be charged
8:24with one or all of those offenses. Okay?
8:26Whether it's you or whether it's anybody
8:27else. All right? And that's why it's
8:29important that we uh make sure that
8:31people understand what they have to do
8:32and what they don't have to do when
8:34they're talking to us. Okay. So, as I
8:36said before, any point today uh you feel
8:38the need you want to speak to a lawyer,
8:40uh you let me know and uh we can take
8:41you to a room where you can do that in
8:43private. Okay.
8:44>> Okay.
8:44>> Um do you have your own lawyer?
8:48>> I have a realy lawyer, but I don't have
8:50a lawyer.
8:50>> All right. Um, if at any point that you
8:53want to make that call and you don't
8:54know who to call, uh, we have a phone
8:56list of lawyers that are available to
8:58give you advice free of charge right
8:59over the phone. Okay. So, again, if at
9:01any point today you want to take
9:02advantage of that, you just let me know.
9:04>> Um, is there any reason you want to call
9:06a lawyer now? No.
9:07>> Okay. Um, couple other fairly simple and
9:10straightforward things that you probably
9:12understand, but uh, again, we go over
9:14them to make sure everybody's clear is
9:15that uh, you don't have to speak to me
9:17today. Okay. And the reason for that is
9:20because the law considers me to be what
9:21we refer to as a person in authority.
9:23Okay? [clears throat] Probably similar
9:24to what you may be considered to be on
9:26the base. Um, and because of that, I can
9:28be compelled to appear before any judge
9:30in the country basically to account for
9:32what takes place here today between you
9:34and I. Okay? And that's the reason why
9:36everything's recorded because
9:38>> there can't be any more accurate record
9:40than that, right? So,
9:41>> no. Um, and the other thing I want to
9:43make sure you understand is that uh, you
9:45know, you mentioned a second ago about
9:47Miss Ko um, being one of your work
9:50associates. Um, so I don't know what's
9:52happened since November um, on the
9:54military side of things. Um, but what we
9:57want to make people clear on is that uh,
9:59if you have been spoken to by any person
10:01in authority or any police officer about
10:02any of those cases, um, I don't want
10:05what they may have said to you to uh,
10:07um, make you feel influenced or
10:09compelled to say anything to me today.
10:11Okay, whatever you might have felt
10:12influenced or compelled to say to them
10:14earlier, you don't have to repeat it to
10:15me and you don't have to say anything
10:16further. Okay, but obviously what you do
10:18say,
10:19>> you know, for the third time is being
10:21recorded, right? So, um understood these
10:23first two attacks happened uh not that
10:25far from my place in two evil, the
10:27second one did.
10:28>> Yeah,
10:28>> we didn't even know the first one had
10:30happened, but uh I understand that was
10:32reasonably close as well, but the second
10:33one was uh was very close. Yeah. Yeah.
10:36So certainly at the time JP did a uh a
10:40door to door.
10:41>> Yeah.
10:41>> And uh within a couple of days, probably
10:43the same night. So I spoke with a couple
10:44guys then.
10:45>> Okay. Um yeah, I'm I'm aware of that
10:47from looking at the different cases and
10:50essentially uh Russell, in a nutshell,
10:52that's what we wanted to uh to talk to
10:54you about. Okay. Um those four cases are
10:56of a concern to us and um you know
10:59you've kind of almost hit the nail on
11:01the head about some of our issues that
11:03kind of uh make us want to talk to to
11:05Russell Williams. Okay. Um cuz
11:07essentially uh there was a a connection
11:11um between you and uh and all four of
11:14those cases. Would you agree?
11:18>> I drive past. Yes. I would say there is
11:21a a connection.
11:22>> Yeah.
11:22>> Yeah. And that's what that's why um I'll
11:25be quite frank with you. That's why uh
11:27things kind of um uh evolved when uh the
11:30officers talked to you on Thursday
11:31night. Okay.
11:32>> Uh we kind of went from there because uh
11:35when I think you discussed with him the
11:36fact that you were a uh uh a colonel at
11:40the base.
11:40>> I was in uniform at the time. So
11:42>> yeah. So pretty obvious, right? Um so
11:44essentially uh then the connection with
11:46Miss Ko um was made. Um and I believe
11:51you're uh a door or two down from one of
11:55those two uh incidents uh in tweeted.
11:57>> Three doors down. Yeah.
11:58>> Yeah.
11:59>> Very close. Absolutely.
12:00>> Yeah. Exactly. So uh those are some of
12:02the issues we wanted to discuss with
12:03you. Okay. Um so just getting back to uh
12:08these four incidents that we're talking
12:09about. Um maybe you could just give me a
12:12little bit of history as to uh your
12:14arrival in the uh in the base in
12:16Trenton. When did you start working
12:18there?
12:20Friday on the day I was um
12:31Friday on the day I was at home most of
12:33the time. Most of the day I had a start
12:34of a stomach flu.
12:36>> Okay. In Ottawa or Tweed?
12:38>> Tweed.
12:38>> In Tweed. Okay.
12:40>> Uh so we backtrack then.
12:44>> So
12:46all day Friday you're at home. Yeah.
12:48>> And then what time do you leave to go to
12:51the base to sleep there on the Friday
12:52night?
12:53>> Um
12:58not sure. Probably just, you know, went
13:00in for just before bed. Uh
13:02[clears throat]
13:03so I probably left between 8 and 9 or
13:05so.
13:06>> Okay.
13:07>> Um and you get to the base and spend the
13:10evening there and get up for the 5:30.
13:11Yeah.
13:12>> Okay.
13:13>> So we backtrack from there. Um you when
13:16did you arrive at your home uh at the
13:19cottage? I wonder I don't want to get
13:21confused between your home in Ottawa and
13:22the home. So
13:24>> I had been in Tweed about all week.
13:26>> Yeah.
13:26>> Uh the week prior now. Um
13:32yeah, I think that's the case. Was in
13:35Twe week, flew Saturday, headed to
13:39Ottawa Saturday night.
13:41>> Okay. So, um, if you didn't have the
13:43stomach flu on the Friday, what was your
13:46schedule that day?
13:47>> Really?
13:48>> Okay.
13:48>> Um,
13:52what would have been my schedule? Just a
13:53standard schedule in the office.
13:55>> Okay.
13:55>> So, uh, [clears throat]
13:58office brief in the morning, a couple of
13:59uh,
14:02couple of meetings. I can't remember
14:04what the specifics uh were going to be.
14:06>> Okay. So, um, Thursday night you slept
14:09at Tweed or you Yeah.
14:12>> All right. And what did you Thursday
14:14during the day?
14:15>> Thursday during the day I was at the
14:16base again.
14:19Um [clears throat]
14:22I think it was a fairly standard day. I
14:24can't recall exactly but uh
14:28yeah nothing was not falling. So I was
14:30so I would have gone in early in the
14:32morning back in the evening again.
14:34>> Okay. Do you remember what time you left
14:35the base that night?
14:43I don't remember anything peculiar. So I
14:45would say uh
14:49>> I don't know probably 7 to 9 somewhere
14:51in that range.
14:52>> Okay.
14:52>> That's when you you left
14:54>> left the base. Yeah.
14:55>> And what it was a 45minute transit.
14:56>> 45 minutes home. Yeah.
14:57>> Okay. Cool. Okay.
14:58>> Now I'm not not going to walk you
15:00through November, but I'm going to take
15:01you to a date that's probably pretty
15:02fresh in your mind. Uh uh the day that
15:05uh that Brief Fron's com um do you
15:08remember how you found out? Uh
15:09>> I do. Yeah, I was sent an email. Um
15:14>> well, as soon as the uh the off staff in
15:16the base learned that you told me, okay,
15:20>> so I got an email. I can't remember if
15:22it was late at night, early in the
15:23morning. It was certainly I saw it uh I
15:26want to say first thing in the morning
15:27because I had just come back from
15:29Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for um
15:34um a set of meetings on one of the days.
15:37I can't remember what what day of the
15:38week we're talking about, but uh
15:41yeah. No, I mean obviously one of your
15:44people gets killed, it gets your
15:45attention. So,
15:46>> absolutely.
15:47>> I very much remember that coming in.
15:49>> And how did you know Marie France?
15:52>> I'd only met her once. Um
15:55she was on a crew uh I was on just after
15:58I got to the base. Okay. So, uh I can't
16:01even remember. I think it was a one-day
16:02trip. Uh I did [clears throat] a number
16:04of trips uh in Canada transporting um
16:08our um you know, troops for the first
16:10leg out of Edmonton. Uh you know, we
16:14tend to hopcotch them across uh until
16:16they get in three or so. Anyway, I can't
16:19remember which trip it was, but uh we
16:20did a number of them out to Edmonton
16:22just to to pick up the troops, bring
16:23them to Trenton and then uh put a fresh
16:26crew on and uh cuz we fly out back in
16:28the same day. So, push on the edge of
16:30that and uh fresh crew on that continue
16:33on after a couple hour delay.
16:35>> Okay. Do you know uh roughly when that
16:37happened?
16:39>> That we were on the same crew.
16:40>> The time you met her, the one time
16:41there. Yeah,
16:42>> it was soon after I got to the base. So,
16:44uh, I I don't remember exactly, but I
16:47would say in the first couple of months,
16:49so August, September.
16:51>> Okay.
16:52>> Um, now you got that email notifying you
16:54that something had happened.
16:56>> Uh, do you have uh any kind of a a clear
16:58recollection as to how your schedule was
17:00going that week?
17:04>> Well, I can't remember what again what
17:07day that uh the message came in. Just
17:09second.
17:11Um,
17:18no. I can't remember what day of the
17:20week, but I um
17:22I just think there was a whole bunch of
17:24activity uh spun up as a result,
17:26obviously.
17:30I can't remember the day of the week.
17:32Um, [clears throat]
17:38I'm just trying to think through the
17:39news reports I read.
17:44Sorry, I can't remember what day it was,
17:45but uh
17:51what I what we learned after the fact
17:53was that the um the MPs had learned
17:59uh of her death, I think quite a bit
18:02after her body had been discovered.
18:04Okay.
18:06So
18:09I think what I know I'm sorry.
18:18Okay. So I think if I remember correctly
18:21the MPs learned
18:24late that evening. Can't remember when
18:26obviously her body was discovered. It
18:28was probably in the news reports but uh
18:30so they learned and then they passed it
18:31to offs that so they immediately passed
18:34it to me. Okay.
18:35>> The MDS work for the wing operations
18:37officer. So they go, you know, through
18:38their training command and then as soon
18:40as the uh the duty launch officer had
18:42that information, she advised me.
18:44>> Okay. Um so again that that particular
18:48some
18:49>> Right. Right. I'm sure it spread like
18:50wildfire.
18:52>> Um so that particular week, uh do you
18:56have any recollection? Well, for
18:57instance, when you got the email, uh do
19:00you remember where you were?
19:01>> I was at home.
19:02>> Okay.
19:03>> Yeah. Um, do you remember if that was a
19:05week that you were um reasonably stable
19:08in Trenton or had you
19:10>> No, I had been in Ottawa. I had been in
19:12Ottawa earlier in the week uh for some
19:15meetings over in uh in Gatnau for one of
19:18the um it's actually for the C7
19:20acquisition. I was project director when
19:22I was here in for that. So just some
19:24followup stuff for that.
19:26>> Okay. So, I had been here um
19:32at some point in that week, again, I
19:34can't remember how the days all fell
19:36together,
19:37but um I seem to remember that I got
19:40this word shortly after having come back
19:43from Ottawa. Seems to me it was the same
19:46week. So, if we were to uh to, you know,
19:49do a similar uh investigation, your
19:52background, is there is there anything
19:53you can think of that anybody may have
19:55misinterpreted or anything uh in your
19:57history that somebody might say Russell
20:00Williams uh
20:01>> absolutely
20:02>> did this?
20:02>> No.
20:03>> Okay. Be very boring.
20:05>> What's that?
20:06>> It'll be very boring.
20:08>> All right. Cuz essentially, that's what
20:09I'm looking at is that uh um
20:14you seem like a very intelligent person.
20:15I think you can see how um a surprise
20:19like that would u certainly set some
20:21alarm bells for investigation, right?
20:23Okay. Um
20:26so the next thing we need to cover off
20:27is uh well I'll just ask you this
20:30straight out. U given the types of
20:31crimes we're investigating, uh do you
20:33get much chance to uh to watch
20:36television shows, CSI, things like that?
20:38>> I do watch uh I prefer Law and Order,
20:41but I do watch CSI occasionally as well.
20:43>> Okay. So you have an idea of obviously
20:45the forensic capabilities, things like
20:46that are out there.
20:48What would you be willing to give me
20:50today to help me um move past you in
20:53this investigation?
20:56>> What uh what do you need?
20:58>> Well, um would you be willing to supply
21:01things like fingerprints, blood samples,
21:03things like that? Yeah.
21:04>> Okay. Um footwear impressions.
21:07>> Yeah.
21:07>> Did you catch that? When Smite asks for
21:10footwear impressions, Williams quickly
21:13glances down at his feet because he's
21:15wearing the exact same boots he wore the
21:18night Jessica Lloyd disappeared.
21:20Williams knows the prince will match,
21:22but saying no would make him look
21:24guilty, so he agrees, thinking he can
21:27explain it away later. But when Smi
21:30shows him the comparison, Williams
21:32realizes he's trapped. The bootprints
21:35are identical, and he has no
21:37explanation. Okay. All right. Um, I
21:40think that's what we're going to we're
21:41going to ask you to do. All right. Now,
21:43we have a process we have to go through
21:45to do that.
21:46>> Um, and for the blood sample, uh, I
21:48don't take the blood sample. We have
21:49specially trained officers that are
21:50trained to do that.
21:51>> Uh, I'm going to step out and make sure
21:53they're still available.
21:56[snorts]
21:56>> Can I assume you're going to be
21:57discreet?
21:59>> It's possible. Yeah. because uh
22:03you know this would have a very
22:05significant impact on the base if they
22:07thought you thought I did this.
22:09>> Well uh bottom line Russell that's one
22:11of the reasons we're here on a Sunday
22:13afternoon.
22:13>> Um uh the uh the military certainly be
22:16of great assistance for to us especially
22:18in relation to Miss Cuomo's
22:20investigation. So uh that's certainly
22:22one of the things that went into our
22:23decision to to give you a call at home
22:24today and see if we could deal with this
22:26today. Okay. So okay. Um
22:34cuz it's tough to undo the rumor mill
22:36once it gets started.
22:41>> Got it. I appreciate that.
22:43>> Okay.
22:44Now that you've had some time to I I
22:46know we've been throwing a lot of things
22:47at you here, but now you've had some
22:48time to to think about things. Um, is
22:51there anything uh that you're concerned
22:53about uh that buckle swap matching in
22:56any of those four residences? Um, is
22:59there
23:01I guess let me explain what I'm getting
23:03done here, Russell. Okay. Um, this is a
23:06significant investigation as you can, as
23:08you can well imagine. Um, that uh that
23:11DNA is going to be uh significant in our
23:14investigation both uh you know, quite
23:16possibly to help you, quite possibly to
23:18help us. I don't know yet. the result is
23:20yet.
23:21>> Um,
23:23and I'll go back to the example I gave
23:25you cuz it's a very similar uh issue I
23:27think. Um, and you talked about the idea
23:30of discretion here. Okay. Uh, you talked
23:32about the idea that uh um, you know, I
23:37think hopefully you appreciate the fact
23:38of how we approached it here.
23:40>> Um, and essentially uh, we have no
23:43issues with that. Okay. Um we we talked
23:46recently about you know the whole idea
23:48of any unusual sex acts in your history.
23:50Um but another thing that can often
23:53happen in cases like this is that people
23:55um become concerned about uh um things
23:59like extrammarital affairs uh
24:02indiscretions along those lines. Um,
24:06is there any contact that you may have
24:09had with any of those four women um that
24:12you may not want your wife to be aware
24:14of? Anything like that that we should
24:16know about to try and uh explain why if
24:20if your DNA is found that would help us
24:22understand why it may be there?
24:23>> Absolutely not.
24:26>> Can you think of any reason um why we
24:30would find your DNA in a load
24:31resonances? Let's let's focus on well
24:33for instance uh I believe let me just
24:35check the name there make sure I've got
24:37the right address talking about the
24:38house that was just uh a couple of doors
24:40down for me there in uh in Tweed
24:43>> a couple of doors down was Lori I don't
24:45know her last name I don't know
24:47>> Masakotti
24:48>> I don't even know what her last name is
24:50but uh
24:52there's a the woman down the road three
24:55doors down her name is Lori I don't know
24:57her last name just make sure we're on
24:59the same page
25:05Okay. Uh my understanding is she lived
25:07at 76 Cozy Cove. Yeah. So she would be
25:09the one the second one uh the second
25:12incident on your on your road there a
25:14couple of doors down. Ever been in her
25:16house?
25:19>> No.
25:20We met her once I think the first
25:23summer.
25:25Um we were there was 04.
25:28>> Okay. And that's what I'm getting at. I
25:30I again this is a credibility issue
25:32right because
25:34>> I don't want to come and see you two
25:35weeks from now and say you know Russ CSI
25:39people in that house and uh are you
25:41familiar with how C uh DNA works
25:45>> I think broadly yes I guess so
25:47>> um one of the challenges we have in 2010
25:50with DNA is it's become so um precise
25:54that um I guess the best way to explain
25:57it is I can think back 15 years ago ago
25:59when I started in uh in violent crime
26:02investigation.
26:03>> Um for us to get a DNA match, the sample
26:06we had to find was um you know, probably
26:09would have filled half of one of these
26:11cups.
26:12>> You know, cuz they destroy so much of
26:13the uh the sample in in the testing. Um,
26:17essentially DNA has become more and more
26:19precise to the point where when you and
26:22I walked in this room earlier today, uh,
26:24we could have sat down, talked for 30
26:26seconds, walked out, CSI officer could
26:29have come in 3 4 days from now,
26:32>> did some swabs here, and he would have
26:34found your DNA and my DNA and probably a
26:36lot of other people's DNA. Um, a little
26:39bit gross to think about, but
26:40essentially, uh, you know, as we talk,
26:43um, you know, a little bit of aspirate
26:45comes out of our mouth that, uh, that
26:47contains our DNA. Our blood or our skin
26:49cells contain our DNA.
26:51>> And that's what I'm getting at. If you
26:52were ever in Lor's residence,
26:54>> quite possibly, quite innocently, your
26:56DNA could be uh, in that residence. Has
26:59there ever been a time you've been in
27:00there?
27:00>> No.
27:01>> Okay. Um,
27:03what about the other lady down the road
27:05on uh
27:06>> I hadn't even heard that name, so no, I
27:08don't I don't actually know who that
27:10was.
27:10>> Okay. Have you ever visited uh Marie
27:14France Como at her residence?
27:15>> No.
27:16>> Okay. All right. Um, so you're quite
27:18positive there would be no reason why
27:19your DNA would be in any of those three
27:21locations.
27:22>> Okay. Um, did you know Jessica Lloyd
27:25even in passing for any reason?
27:28>> No, I didn't hear hear her name till it
27:30was on the news. Okay. And the reason
27:32I'm asking you that uh is because um I
27:36know you were asked that question on
27:38Thursday night and sometimes what we
27:40find and again this is one of those
27:42situations that can sometimes cause us
27:43to get an lengthy investigation is
27:45somebody that maybe doesn't deserve it.
27:47U but what what can happen sometimes is
27:49they you know somebody gets stopped by
27:51the police like you did and they uh they
27:54get asked that question and people when
27:56they're stopped by the police they can
27:58be nervous. Okay. Um so they blurt out
28:00an answer and then they start driving
28:02away and they go why' I do that? Because
28:04the problem is is that once they uh get
28:06asked again then they feel compelled to
28:09maintain that answer
28:12for fear that if they change their
28:13answers somebody could find it. You
28:15understand what I'm saying?
28:15>> I do.
28:16>> Okay. So I want to make sure that's not
28:17happening here. I don't care what you
28:18said to the offers on Thursday night
28:20last week. Um if there's any uh
28:23communication or contact between you and
28:25Jessica Lloyd, you've seen her picture
28:27right around town. Yeah. So, ever seen
28:29her before?
28:31>> I don't. No, I would say I have not.
28:33>> Okay. All right. All right. And you
28:36mentioned something about uh doing some
28:38renovations at your uh at your property
28:40in Tweed there. Um I think you said
28:42something early about tearing up carpet.
28:44Correct me if I'm wrong, but
28:45>> Okay. When did all that happen?
28:47>> In 2004 or five.
28:49>> Okay. Any recent uh renovations? No.
28:52>> Okay. All right.
29:01Just want to make sure I'm covering all
29:02the bases here. Um,
29:09what kind of tires do you have on your
29:10Pathfinder?
29:14I think um I think they're
29:17Toyo. Do you know the brand name or
29:20sorry the make?
29:22>> Um I don't sorry the make is Toyo. Yeah.
29:26>> I don't know the model.
29:27>> Okay.
29:32This PSA if it rings a bell.
29:40You ever heard of uh does Toyo Open
29:43Country HTS
29:45make any sense? Okay. When did you have
29:47those tires put on your Pathfinder?
29:51>> Well, it's the second version we've had
29:52of them. So, uh
29:57I think it might have been this past
29:58fall. They replaced other ones we had on
30:01the same
30:04Toyota. I can't say that they were the
30:05same exactly the same model, but uh our
30:08dealership here says they're very
30:10popular for the Pathfinders. Okay. And
30:12they were good. They last a long time.
30:14All right. Um,
30:18I've had I think you were talking about
30:21the the whole idea of the MPs uh helping
30:23us with our investigation. So, I guess
30:26you have the same system as we do at our
30:27headquarters with the swipe cards.
30:29>> Um, one of the things uh one of our
30:32investigators did is they made a call
30:33while I was talking to you there. Um,
30:35because we were trying to work through
30:36that week of the uh the 23rd of
30:38November.
30:39>> Okay.
30:39>> Um, 23rd being the Monday, uh, 24th
30:42being the Tuesday.
30:43>> Okay. Um what what they've what they've
30:46told us is that um and I want to make
30:48sure I get this right is that uh on the
30:5123rd uh your swipe card was being used
30:54at the base. Okay.
30:56>> Okay.
30:56>> Uh on Tuesday 24th there was no use of
30:58your swipe card.
31:00>> Okay. And then on the uh the following
31:02days uh Wednesday, Thursday, Friday um
31:04there was what appeared to be average
31:06activity of your swipe card base. Does
31:08that make sense to you?
31:09>> It does. That that says that I was in
31:11Ottawa on the Tuesday.
31:13>> Okay. Do you remember where in Ottawa
31:15you were?
31:16>> Yeah, I was in Gatnau with uh as I said
31:19meeting about the uh C17.
31:21>> Okay. Um now again I want to be fair
31:26going back 2 months. Um are you sure
31:28that would have been the uh the day you
31:30were in Ottawa?
31:31>> Well
31:33only because I was with the base.
31:35>> Okay. So, I I can't remember honestly
31:38that that's the day I had the meeting in
31:39Ottawa, but uh if I wasn't at the base,
31:42it was cuz I was here.
31:43>> Okay. Now, if that is the day you had a
31:46meeting in Ottawa, um do you remember
31:48being at the base on the Monday uh the
31:5023rd and swiping your card in and out,
31:53do you remember what you would have done
31:54that evening to to to get to Ottawa for
31:56that meeting? Like, would it be uh
32:00I drove to Ottawa in the morning of the
32:02day of my meeting? So if it was the
32:03Tuesday then I would have left uh tweed.
32:06It was a very foggy morning. Okay.
32:08>> Uh that morning I drove in that morning.
32:12>> Okay.
32:12>> So I would not have been at the base
32:15uh the day I was in cuz the meeting
32:18started at 8:30 or something.
32:19>> Okay. So you leave the base, you would
32:21have went home to to your residence in
32:23Tweed.
32:25>> Yep.
32:25>> And then you left Tweed in the morning
32:27and drove up to your meeting in Ottawa.
32:28Okay. Um, you leave the the meeting in
32:31Ottawa is a daytime meeting, evening
32:34meeting or do you remember?
32:35>> Uh, yeah, it was a daytime meeting.
32:37Finished I don't know midafter afternoon
32:39or so.
32:39>> Okay.
32:40>> We had lunch and then uh finished I
32:42think uh my wife and I had dinner cuz
32:44she was here for work and then I headed
32:46back.
32:47>> Okay. Um well that's these are the kind
32:50of things I'm trying to draw out here.
32:51That's helpful to us. Um do you remember
32:53where you had dinner?
32:56Uh well, I don't remember exactly the
32:58restaurant, but it was in Westboro cuz
32:59that's where our house was being built
33:00at the time. So, we had dinner, you
33:03know, in a restaurant that we would
33:06expect to be able to frequent uh once
33:07the house was finished.
33:09>> Okay. Remember how you paid?
33:11>> Uh, one of us would have paid by
33:13Mastercard. Yeah.
33:14>> Okay. Are you sure about that or
33:17>> Pretty sure that's normally how we uh
33:19>> Okay.
33:20>> We pay for meals.
33:21>> All right.
33:21>> Can't remember if it was me or my wife
33:22that paid, but one of us. Okay. And do
33:24you remember which restaurant it was
33:25again?
33:26>> No.
33:27>> Okay. All right. And you see what I'm
33:29getting at, right? I mean, that can be
33:31very helpful for us because if we can
33:32track
33:33>> uh that issue, right? Uh we can we can
33:35put somebody paying for a meal at at a
33:38location.
33:38>> I was meeting with uh you know, 15
33:40people or so that day. So,
33:42>> Okay. What time did the meeting end?
33:47>> I would say between 3 and 4.
33:49>> Okay. And um are you sure that that's
33:51the same day you went out with your
33:52wife?
33:55Well,
33:58I think so. Yeah, cuz she was here and
34:01uh
34:03I I think that was the day we went to
34:05this restaurant in West.
34:07>> Okay. Um you finished dinner and do you
34:11remember what you did that evening?
34:12>> I would have driven back to Tweed.
34:14>> Okay. And you would have now again I
34:18know we're talking two months ago here,
34:19but do you remember specifically having
34:21dinner and then driving back to Tweed or
34:23uh do you remember are you just guessing
34:26here?
34:29>> No, I'm not really guessing. I mean, I I
34:31believe that this night at this
34:33restaurant was following the meetings in
34:34Ottawa
34:37>> and I, you know, kissed my wife goodbye
34:39and headed back to Tweet to go to work
34:42the next day. Okay. Um, all right. The
34:47uh the tires that you have on your
34:49truck, right? The reason I asked you
34:51about that is there
34:52>> is there any time I mean you recall uh
34:55where you were stopped um by the
34:57officers there?
34:59>> Yes.
34:59>> Okay. Did they explain to you what the
35:01significance of that house?
35:02>> That was her house. Okay. So, you
35:03remember that location?
35:04>> Yeah.
35:04>> Do you remember what the crossroad was
35:06or
35:07>> I don't think there was a crossroad.
35:09It's sort of just uh on the south end of
35:1137.
35:12>> Okay.
35:13um when you get stopped at that
35:15location, has there been a time in the
35:18recent uh one or two weeks that uh your
35:21vehicle has uh left that road for any
35:24reason whatsoever? Have you driven into
35:26a field with your vehicle at all? Um for
35:29any reason you can think of?
35:30>> No.
35:31>> Okay. Um cuz I want you to rack your
35:33brain here. This is important. So,
35:35>> is there anything you can remember doing
35:37that uh you know
35:39>> would have caused you to to uh drive off
35:42the road at that section of roadway?
35:44>> No, that's my early uh that's the early
35:46part of the highway and um just head
35:49north. It's about 30 minutes from there
35:50to uh [clears throat]
35:52probably 20 from there to my house.
35:54>> Okay. Um, would it surprise you to know
35:58that uh when the CSI officers were uh
36:01looking around her property uh that they
36:04identified um a set of tire tracks uh to
36:08the north of her property? Um looks as
36:11if the vehicle left the road
36:13>> and uh drove along the north tree line
36:16of of Jessica Lloyd's property. Okay.
36:18>> Okay. Um they took uh they examined
36:23those tire tracks
36:24>> and uh they have contacts in the tire
36:27business. Obviously tire tracks are a
36:29major source of uh evidence for us.
36:31>> Sure.
36:31>> Um shortly after um this investigation
36:35started, they identified those tires as
36:38the same uh tires on your Pathfinder.
36:40>> Really?
36:41>> Yeah.
36:43>> Okay. Okay. One of the other uh one of
36:46the other things that they do to try and
36:48identify the type of vehicle that may
36:49have left those tires well is they do
36:51two things. They they talk to witnesses.
36:53Okay. Um there was a uh a female police
36:57officer that actually drove by that
36:58location uh that evening and
37:01[clears throat] recall seeing an SUV
37:03type vehicle in the field to the north
37:05of Jessica Lloyd's house uh consistent
37:07with a a Pathfinder. Okay.
37:09>> It may be consistent with other things
37:10but consistent with a Pathfinder.
37:12Um, and they uh what they also do to try
37:15and identify the type of the vehicle is
37:17they look at uh what they call the wheel
37:20basease width. Okay? Cuz different
37:22vehicles, different makes, models have
37:23wheelbase width. So they can take those
37:24two sets of tire tracks, measure the
37:27distance between them, okay? And
37:29determine
37:30>> what the uh the width is and then they
37:32can enter that into a vehicle database
37:34and it will spit out the types of
37:35vehicles. Okay. um your Pathfinder's uh
37:39wheelbase width is very very close to
37:42the width of the uh of the tires uh that
37:45were left in that field. Okay. Um
37:49do you have any recollection at all of
37:51being off that road?
37:52>> I was not off the road. No.
37:54>> Okay. All right.
37:57Russell, um
38:00is there anything you can think of?
38:02Let's go talk about Marie France Como
38:04for a minute. Okay.
38:05>> Mhm. Is there any reason at all you can
38:08think of that during our investigation,
38:12obviously we're searching uh computers,
38:15uh things like Blackberries, right?
38:18Electronic devices, uh looking through
38:20houses for things that are in
38:22handwriting, written notes, diaries,
38:24things like that. Um, now I'm not at
38:26liberty to tell you what the content
38:28was, but is there any reason at all you
38:30can think of why Marie France Como would
38:33have specifically reference you in some
38:36of her uh some of her writings?
38:40>> Not at all.
38:41>> No.
38:42>> No. Absolutely not.
38:44>> Okay. Is there anything that she ever
38:46said to you that led you to believe that
38:47there might be something uh more than a
38:50passing interest with her towards you?
38:52>> Not at all. No. We spent, you know, one
38:55flight together talking, I'd go back
38:58occasionally and talk.
39:01No, I
39:03if that's the case, that's that's very
39:05surprising. Okay. All right. Um, you
39:08have any questions for me right now?
39:09>> No.
39:10>> Okay. I'm just going to step out and see
39:11how things are going. Okay. I mean, it
39:13is a Sunday, but there's probably 60 70
39:15people working on this file, so there's
39:16a lot of things happening. Sure. Uh, so
39:18let me go out and see what's happening,
39:19and then I'll uh I'll come back in and
39:21we'll hopefully continue. Okay. I told
39:24you when I came in here uh that I'm
39:25going to treat you with respect and I've
39:27asked you to do the same for me. Um
39:31we talked about the whole idea of how
39:32we've uh uh approached you here. Okay.
39:35Uh the trying to be as discreet as
39:38possible. Okay. But the problem is
39:41Russell is every time I walk out of this
39:43room there's another issue that comes
39:45up. Okay. And it's not issues that point
39:47away from you. It's issues that point at
39:49you. Okay. And I want I want you to see
39:51what I mean. Right.
39:56This is the footwear impression
40:01of a person who approached
40:04the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house
40:07>> on the evening of the 28th and 29th of
40:10January. Okay. All right. Now, I want
40:13you to keep in mind that this is
40:15slightly smaller, okay? In scale. Okay.
40:18>> All right. That's not to scale. That's
40:20the footwear is actually bigger. Okay,
40:21if you look here on the ruler, you'll
40:24see that uh 1 in is just slightly
40:26smaller than actual inch. Okay, but this
40:28is the way it prints off on the
40:29computer.
40:32I'm going move this over so you can see
40:33what I mean. All right, cuz essentially
40:35when you're dealing with footwware
40:36impressions, um we have a gentleman on
40:39the OP who's uh basically worldrenowned.
40:41Uh his name is John Norman. And
40:44essentially with footwear impressions uh
40:46you're in a situation where you're
40:48you're pretty much in the area of
40:50fingerprints. Okay. And essentially what
40:53we're talking about here is especially
40:55when you start adding in other pieces of
40:56of uh information that uh support uh an
41:00investigative position. Okay.
41:06This is a photocopy of the boot that uh
41:10you took off your foot. Yeah. Just a
41:12little while ago. Okay. Now, I'm not an
41:16expert in footwear impressions, so I
41:17rely on the experts.
41:20Footwear impressions are very much like
41:21uh like fingerprint comparisons. Okay.
41:24You take a look at this print. And
41:26again, this is one print. This person
41:28walked through. There's several
41:30different prints to compare. So, we're
41:32going to get features off of one print
41:33to compare, features off of another
41:34print to compare.
41:37These are identical.
41:43Okay.
41:44Your vehicle drove up the side of
41:46Jessica Lloyd's house.
41:49Your boots walked to the back of Jessica
41:52Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th
41:55and 29th of January.
41:57Okay. You want discretion.
42:00We need to have some honesty. Okay.
42:03Because this is this is getting out of
42:05control really fast, Russell.
42:08Okay. Really really fast.
42:25This is getting beyond my control.
42:30All right. I came in here a few hours
42:32ago
42:34and I called you the way I called you
42:35today because I wanted to give you the
42:37benefit of the doubt.
42:37>> Mhm.
42:38>> But you and I both know
42:40you were at Jessica Lloyd's house and I
42:43need to know why.
43:15I don't know what's
43:18Well, you need to explain it because
43:20this is the other problem we're having,
43:21Russell. Okay. Again, these decisions
43:24are made by me.
43:26Right now, there's a search warrant
43:27being executed at your residence.
43:31So, your wife now knows what's going on.
43:34There's a search warrant being executed
43:36at the your residence and your vehicle's
43:39been seized. Okay?
43:42You and I both know they're going to
43:43find evidence that links you to these
43:48situations.
43:50Okay. You and I both know that the
43:52unknown offender male
43:57on Marie France Como's body is going to
44:00be matched to you quite possibly before
44:02the evening's over.
44:05Okay. This is a major investigation. The
44:08center of forensic science is on call 24
44:10hours a day helping us with this.
44:14Your opportunity to take some control
44:16here and to have some explanation that
44:20anybody is going to believe
44:23is
44:25quickly expiring.
44:29>> Okay,
44:31we're applying the investigators now
44:33applying for a warrant to search your
44:35office.
44:39Right? These aren't decisions that we
44:40can say yes or no to. This is a
44:42practical steps in an investigation like
44:45this.
44:48And Russell
45:09Russell H. Listen to me for a second,
45:12okay? When that evidence comes in, when
45:15that DNA match, when that phone rings
45:16and somebody knocks on this door,
45:21your credibility is gone. Okay? Because
45:24this is how credibility works. All
45:25right? And I know you're an intelligent
45:27person and you probably don't need to
45:28hear this explanation, but I also know
45:30your mind's racing right now. Okay? Cuz
45:32I've sat across a lot of people in your
45:34position over the years. Okay? The
45:36bottom line is is that as soon as we get
45:39that that piece of evidence that
45:41solidifies it,
45:42>> DNA. Okay. As soon as the expert
45:47in footwear impressions, the expert in
45:49tire impressions calls and says, "Yes,
45:52I've examined those and they're match.
45:57It's all over." Because as soon as that
45:59happens,
46:01where's your credibility? Where's your
46:03believability? you're just another uh
46:06and again don't take this wrong okay but
46:10you can see if you step outside this
46:12room in your mind and imagine how people
46:15are going to view you okay if the truth
46:18comes out after the clear evidence is
46:22presented to you when you finally go
46:24okay I'm screwed now
46:28what are we going to
46:38Russell,
46:40you know there's only one option. What
46:42do you What do you What other option is
46:44there?
46:45>> What's the option?
46:47>> Well, I don't think you want the cold
46:49blooded psychopath option.
46:55I might be wrong.
46:59And cuz I don't get me wrong, I've met
47:00guys who actually kind of enjoyed the
47:02notoriety. Got off on it.
47:06Got off on having that label.
47:09Bernardo being one of them. I don't see
47:11that in you. If I saw that in you, I
47:14wouldn't be back in here talking to you,
47:15quite frankly.
47:23But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you got me
47:25fooled. I don't know.
47:32this is over.
47:36And it can have a
47:39a bad ending
47:41where Jessica's parents continue
47:45to wonder where her daughter's lying.
47:53I don't know. I mean, obviously there's
47:56a huge search still underway, and it'll
47:57continue.
48:00It'll continue until her body's found.
48:06That might even happen tonight for all I
48:08know.
48:12Once that happens,
48:15then I don't know what other cards you
48:16would have to play.
48:26What are we going to do?
48:59Russell,
49:02what are we going to do?
49:10Call me Russ, please. Okay.
49:15Don't get any rest.
49:42Is Jessica somewhere we can find her
49:44easily?
49:47Like, is this something where I can make
49:48a call and tell somebody to go to a
49:50location and they're going to find her?
49:51Or is this something where we have to go
49:52and and uh
49:56take a walk?
49:59It's just hard to believe.
50:06Whose decision was it? And we're going
50:10to find out the answer to this anyway,
50:12but whose decision was it to issue the
50:15uh the directive to the base personnel
50:18that nobody had to speak to the police
50:19and to seek legal counsel before they
50:21were questioned?
50:26My
50:26>> I don't think that was
50:27>> my understanding that direction came
50:29from somebody that reports to you.
50:32>> What do you think they're going to say,
50:34>> Russ?
50:36>> I don't know.
50:36>> What do you think they're going to say?
50:38All right. And and let's let's step back
50:40for a second here. Okay.
50:42I really don't think it benefits you or
50:44makes you look any better to start
50:46debating the little issues.
50:47>> No, but that is news to me.
50:49>> Okay.
50:49>> I have a legal officer that reports to
50:51me.
50:52>> Yeah.
50:52>> Who may have given that direction.
50:54>> Okay.
50:55>> But that's the first time I've heard if
50:56that's true. That's the first time I've
50:57heard that.
50:58>> All right. And that may be the case. But
51:01how does it look?
51:05Right.
51:07We're not even dealing with something
51:08that's really even evidence because it's
51:10not needed. I mean, they have DNA and
51:12all this other stuff that's not even
51:16>> I don't recall, but it was something
51:17along the lines of of uh telling the
51:20people on the base that they didn't uh
51:22they weren't required legally to speak
51:24with police and they should seek legal
51:25counsel before they chise to speak. But
51:28>> well, if that was if that was actually
51:29said, it would not have been to the base
51:31at large. It it may have been to the
51:33individual the uh the boyfriend who is
51:36the suspect.
51:38>> Okay. My understanding it went out to
51:39all personnel. Maybe maybe no only under
51:41your command. I don't know. Okay. Okay.
51:43That's fine.
51:44>> I didn't see it.
51:44>> That's fine. Now, let's get back to the
51:46issue. What's that?
51:47>> So, you talk about perception. My only
51:50two immediate concerns from a perception
51:52perspective are
51:54what my wife must be going through right
51:56now.
51:57>> Yeah.
51:59and the impact this is going to have on
52:00the Canadian forces. Where do we go?
52:06Russ, is there anything you want from
52:07me?
52:10Is there anything you want me to
52:11explain?
52:14Is there something missing that you're
52:15struggling with that I can shed some
52:17light on for you?
52:26I'm struggling with how upset my wife is
52:28right now. Bre, what are you looking
52:31for?
52:41I'm concerned that they're tearing apart
52:43my wife's brand new house.
52:45>> So am I.
52:48But if nobody tells them
52:51what's there, what's not, they don't
52:54have a choice.
52:57Computers will be brought to Microsoft
52:59in California. They'll be they'll be
53:02picked apart. You can't erase things
53:05from computers.
53:07It doesn't happen. I'm sure you've seen
53:08that. I'm sure that's pretty common
53:10knowledge these days. It just doesn't
53:12happen. There's they sell programs that
53:15uh to try and help people clean their
53:18computers of stuff and our guys are
53:21pulling that stuff out all the time. The
53:22FBI is pulling that stuff out all the
53:24time.
53:33This investigation
53:35will end up costing no less than $10
53:37million.
53:41easy
53:44and they will say no to nothing.
53:49Any request
53:51this major case manager makes on this
53:53case, they've already been told it's
53:56approved. Don't even bother asking.
54:29So, what am I doing? Rest.
54:33I put my best foot forward here for you,
54:35but
54:42I really have. I don't I don't know what
54:44else to do to to m make you understand
54:46the impact of what's happening here.
54:50Do we talk?
54:54>> I want to um
54:59minimize the impact on my wife.
55:01>> So do I.
55:06>> So how do we do that?
55:08>> Well, we start by telling the truth.
55:11>> Williams could have asked for a lawyer
55:13at any point. He's not under arrest.
55:15He's free to leave. So why didn't he?
55:18Because Williams is a narcissist. He's
55:21been the smartest person in the room for
55:2323 years. He commands thousands. He
55:26pilots world leaders. He believes he can
55:29outsmart Smi. But Smi has positioned
55:32himself between Williams and the door.
55:35Subconsciously, Williams feels trapped,
55:37and asking for a lawyer would make him
55:39look guilty, so he stays and talks. By
55:43the time he realizes his mistake, it's
55:46too late. He's already started
55:48confessing.
56:16Okay. Okay.
56:20So, where is she?
56:43got a map.
56:45Um, is she close to where she lives?
56:48I've got maps of that general area.
56:55Which town is she near? Why don't we
56:57start there?
57:04I'm not sure. If you me of um that
57:07covers Caligar down to the highway
57:13and over to Tweed
57:16and stuff. I'll show you. Let me see
57:18what I got here. I might have something.
57:22Is she inside? That was
57:51probably the biggest area I have there
57:52for us.
57:54>> Yeah, I need more. I need a real map.
57:56>> So, where am I going on the here to get
57:59to her?
58:02>> In this block here.
58:04>> Okay. So, you're pointing to
58:06>> a detailed map of that area and I'll
58:08show you where she is.
58:09>> Okay. Is she close to a road?
58:11>> Yep.
58:12>> All right.
58:14Um,
58:15is it something where is she is she
58:17buried or is she somewhere where if you
58:19walked there you would you would fairly
58:21easily see her?
58:22>> Yes.
58:23>> Okay. So, she's south of 7 uh east of
58:28Tweed west of 41.
58:30>> Mhm.
58:31>> And uh what's this road here?
58:34>> Not sure.
58:35>> Neither am I.
58:37Okay. I'll be right back. Okay. Do you
58:39want any water or anything?
58:41>> Sure.
58:42>> Okay. I'll be right back.
58:47How long has she been there for?
58:54A little over a week.
58:56Was it fairly quick from the time
58:59she left?
59:02>> Friday night.
59:04>> Friday night.
59:04>> Yeah.
59:05>> So, where was she between Thursday night
59:07and Friday night?
59:08>> In tweet
59:10>> with you.
59:10>> Yeah.
59:12How long was she alive for?
59:20>> Almost 24 hours. Not quite.
59:23>> Okay.
59:25Yes.
59:27You're doing the right thing here.
59:31Okay. Well, again, my interest is in uh
59:36making my my wife's life a little
59:37easier.
59:39Family, her family as well.
59:41Well, we share that. But
59:43>> there's no uh your time in Ottawa is
59:46wasted. Really? I'll tell you where the
59:48number cards are.
59:50>> Where are they?
59:52>> They're in the house there. But
59:55>> in Ottawa?
59:55>> Yeah.
59:56>> Whereabouts?
59:58>> Um
1:00:01some in the camera bag, which they would
1:00:02have found in my office.
1:00:04>> Mhm.
1:00:05And in the when you walk into the office
1:00:07on the left side there's a um
1:00:12uh dusted drawers drawers like a filing
1:00:16cabinet wooden IKEA
1:00:19in one of the top two drawers and
1:00:21there's a plastic divider.
1:00:23>> Yeah.
1:00:25>> And there's uh inside there there are
1:00:29two memory cards.
1:00:30>> Okay. which are blank, but I'm sure they
1:00:33can be re.
1:00:35>> And whose images are on those cards?
1:00:38>> Uh, well, I've erased them, but I expect
1:00:42uh you'll be able to draw images of uh
1:00:46Jessica and I.
1:00:49>> What about Marine?
1:00:58>> There may be images on there as well.
1:01:01Okay. And the two women from September?
1:01:04>> Yep.
1:01:05>> Okay. Do you have those images stored
1:01:08anywhere else?
1:01:14>> Yeah, there are um two hard drives in
1:01:16the house in Ottawa.
1:01:20>> I can draw you a little picture.
1:01:23>> Sure. Do you want to do that now while
1:01:25I'm getting them out? OKAY.
1:01:33want anything to eat or ANYTHING
1:01:39with you. OKAY.
1:02:02That's the time
1:02:10right back.
1:02:27>> Can you make it up there?
1:02:32Hey,
1:02:36we count
1:02:45somebody running around looking for an
1:02:47actual map. But, uh, they did the same
1:02:50thing with, uh, Google Maps. Just have
1:02:52to blew them up a little bit more.
1:03:02THIS IS THE THIS IS THE biggest of the
1:03:04area.
1:03:07This might have better parameters for
1:03:09you. There's tweet
1:03:247 from this intersection.
1:03:30And what road is that, Carrie?
1:03:33South of Can't read that word.
1:03:37Uh, East Hungerford. Does that make
1:03:40sense?
1:03:41Oh, there it is. There. Okay. How far
1:03:44off the road is she?
1:03:46>> 40 ft. She be Is she covered with
1:03:48anything?
1:03:51She's
1:03:51>> wrapped up.
1:03:53>> She's on the surface. Just
1:03:56>> a gray something or cover. Okay.
1:04:01>> Barry, the obvious question I'm going to
1:04:03have for you is
1:04:07when they go there, they'll be there
1:04:09shortly.
1:04:10>> They're going to find her. Oh, yeah.
1:04:12Okay. I'll be right back.
1:04:17feel like you want to say something?
1:04:19>> Just that the this place, my wife, it's
1:04:21been a dream for better part of a year.
1:04:24So, I I'm keen to get them what they
1:04:27need and so they can leave it on.
1:04:29>> Okay. Well, we're doing our door best to
1:04:31keep that as low key as possible. Okay.
1:04:33>> What do you want to talk about?
1:04:38>> Cuz it's uh pretty wide open now.
1:04:40>> Yeah.
1:04:41>> What do you want to know?
1:04:43Well, do you want to work forwards or
1:04:44backwards?
1:04:48Doesn't matter.
1:04:49>> Why don't we start with Jessica?
1:04:53How does that start for you?
1:04:59Um,
1:05:01I saw her in her house on her treadmill.
1:05:11Then I noticed she wasn't um
1:05:14there Thursday.
1:05:18So I got into the house, look around
1:05:26then. Um
1:05:28and I left.
1:05:31Notice she'd come home.
1:05:35So, I went back in
1:05:40through the uh back patio door
1:05:44while she was sleeping.
1:06:01So, I woke her up.
1:06:15didn't um didn't hit her. She only hit
1:06:18her once
1:06:20Friday night.
1:06:38Okay. [clears throat]
1:06:46Well, so I raped her in uh in her house
1:06:53and then I took her to the car and took
1:06:55her to tweet.
1:07:08and um
1:07:14spent the day in tweet
1:07:22and I hit her uh as we were walking.
1:07:26She thought we were leaving.
1:07:32Hit her on the back of the head.
1:07:44Okay.
1:07:51Well, um, what did the hit on the back
1:07:53of the head do?
1:07:59Well, I was surprised it uh her her
1:08:02skull gave way.
1:08:05She was there and immediately
1:08:07unconscious.
1:08:10I strangled her.
1:08:12Okay.
1:08:14What did you hit her with?
1:08:16>> Flashlight.
1:08:19Okay. In the house or outside the house?
1:08:21In the house.
1:08:26Yeah, they'll find signs of that.
1:08:30>> Where in the house did this happen?
1:08:33>> In the main portion just in front of the
1:08:35fireplace.
1:08:37>> What do you mean they'll find signs of
1:08:38it?
1:08:38>> Oh, it was quite a bit of blood. I had
1:08:40expected I'd expected to knock her out,
1:08:47but obviously generated a lot of blood.
1:08:51>> What did she bleed onto?
1:08:53floor. It's just a tile floor.
1:08:56>> Okay. Did you clean it up or did you
1:08:59>> I I wiped it up.
1:09:02>> I know. I'd be easily spotted.
1:09:04>> Well, that makes you think that like if
1:09:08I walked in that house, you probably
1:09:10wouldn't see it at all, but uh yeah.
1:09:14>> All right. So, we'll uh we'll show it,
1:09:16I'm sure.
1:09:17>> Okay. Um, so when that happened, was she
1:09:21did she have clothes on or was she
1:09:22naked?
1:09:23>> She was dressed.
1:09:24>> Okay. So when we find her, is she going
1:09:27to have those clothes on, too?
1:09:30>> All right. Um,
1:09:35okay.
1:09:37Marie France, uh, com.
1:09:47There was an open window in the basement
1:09:49of her uh her house when she was away.
1:09:54I went in there um a couple of nights
1:09:56before she came home,
1:10:00looked around.
1:10:05I went back in there uh late at night
1:10:07when she was at home.
1:10:10was on the phone in her bedroom.
1:10:18She actually discovered me in the
1:10:20basement.
1:10:24She was trying to get her cat to come
1:10:25upstairs and the cat was in the basement
1:10:28and seen me and was fixated on me in the
1:10:30corner. She couldn't get the cat up. So,
1:10:33uh,
1:10:35she came downstairs to try and get the
1:10:37cat and
1:10:39I'm not sure why she, uh, came over to
1:10:42me. I guess the cat was staring at me,
1:10:44and she was wondering why the cat was
1:10:45staring at
1:10:50lights were on.
1:10:58So when she spotted me, I um
1:11:03had the same flashlight,
1:11:05I subdued her,
1:11:11tied her up, going upstairs
1:11:22and uh strangled her.
1:11:28later in the morning.
1:11:33Oh, more suffocated hurt.
1:11:39Some tape
1:11:47left her there.
1:11:54How did you subdue her? When you say
1:11:56some doodle in the basement, what did
1:11:57you do?
1:11:59>> Well, I had the same flashlight
1:12:02and um
1:12:09she she saw me right away. So, it was
1:12:11just uh hit her a couple of times
1:12:14around her head, try and knock her out.
1:12:18Didn't, but um she was bleeding a little
1:12:22bit.
1:12:28eventually um
1:12:31struggled to subdue her.
1:12:38Okay. Any blood from from that struggle?
1:12:41>> Oh, yeah. No, not not a whole bunch, but
1:12:44uh flashlight did break her skin a
1:12:49couple of times.
1:12:51>> Okay.
1:12:52What area of the basement did that take
1:12:53place in?
1:12:57>> I was hiding behind the furnace, so she
1:13:00spotted me right there.
1:13:02>> Okay. Did she recognize you?
1:13:04>> No, I had uh stuff on my face.
1:13:10Okay.
1:13:17Um,
1:13:19so then you go upstairs and you said uh
1:13:22she suffocated.
1:13:24>> Well, I suffocated. I put tape on her um
1:13:27I put tape on her mouth
1:13:30and then I put tape on her uh nose and
1:13:36held it there so she couldn't breathe.
1:13:42Okay.
1:13:44Um what kind of tape was it?
1:13:51What happened to it?
1:13:56Uh, well, I took it with me and uh
1:14:06can't can't remember what actually I did
1:14:08with that tape, but uh we probably threw
1:14:11it in the garbage.
1:14:14Did you use tape for any other purposes?
1:14:21No.
1:14:24Okay. Um, did she ever recognize you
1:14:27through this whole episode?
1:14:30>> What did you say you had on your face?
1:14:34Uh, just a a cover for my head. Just a,
1:14:38you know,
1:14:40sports you pull over take just a little
1:14:44cap kind of thing. Okay. Just a,
1:14:49you know,
1:14:51liquor or something
1:14:54and they um
1:14:57just a headband over my nose mouth. So
1:15:01covered most everything but my eyes.
1:15:04Okay.
1:15:07Um, I have this flashlight. Where is
1:15:10that now? In
1:15:11>> tweet.
1:15:12>> In the house? Yeah.
1:15:14>> What kind of flashlight is it?
1:15:16>> It's a red uh 3D.
1:15:21I'm not sure
1:15:23what brand it is, but it's a metal. You
1:15:25know, these aluminum.
1:15:28It's like a big
1:15:32[snorts]
1:15:34brand
1:15:38flashlight's already. It's a big bigger
1:15:40one of those.
1:15:42>> Um, did you take anything out of uh
1:15:46Marie Francis's house or Jessica Lloyd's
1:15:48house?
1:15:50>> Uh, yeah, some of their underwear.
1:15:54>> Okay, that's all.
1:15:56>> And where is that?
1:15:59Um,
1:16:06it's in some boxes
1:16:11in the basement here in Ottawa in that
1:16:13wreck room.
1:16:15So, we just moved in. So, there boxes
1:16:17everywhere. So, on the same side as the
1:16:19furnace room,
1:16:21sort of in the back against the wall.
1:16:23Okay. What do the other boxes look like?
1:16:29Um, I think one's a scanner. The box for
1:16:32my scanner. Mhm.
1:16:37They're They're all right next to each
1:16:38other. So, if I look through the boxes
1:16:40there, we'll
1:16:42find
1:16:44Okay. How much underwear is in those
1:16:45boxes?
1:16:50>> Um,
1:16:54probably 60 pieces or something.
1:16:56Hall women's.
1:16:58>> Yeah. 16 pieces of theirs.
1:17:02>> Of who's of [clears throat]
1:17:05Jessica's and uh
1:17:08Charles.
1:17:11>> So you took 60 pieces from between the
1:17:14two of them.
1:17:14>> Yeah.
1:17:16>> Okay.
1:17:18>> All right. Um and they're in like when
1:17:21you talk about a scanner, is it a
1:17:22computer scanner box? My computer
1:17:24scanner is up in the office and its box
1:17:26is down in the basement. So,
1:17:27>> okay.
1:17:28>> It's inside that box.
1:17:30>> Is any of the underwear in those boxes
1:17:32belong to anyone other than Marie Frons
1:17:33or uh or Jessica?
1:17:37>> Um
1:17:42yeah, there's some from each of the
1:17:44other two women.
1:17:46>> Okay.
1:17:48Uh why don't we talk about those two
1:17:50women? Um, so the first one happened on
1:17:53the 16th and I don't know why can't
1:17:57recall their names but uh
1:18:00lady there was a
1:18:03live closer to you. No was closer to me.
1:18:07Okay.
1:18:12So, the first uh the first one on
1:18:16I had just spotted her
1:18:20from our boat actually.
1:18:25I got into the house while she was uh
1:18:28asleep. Notice that she was alone
1:18:35and uh
1:18:38just hit her with my hand while she was
1:18:40sleeping.
1:18:46subdued her
1:18:50mostly just my weight on top of her.
1:18:59Um,
1:19:01had her take off her pajamas,
1:19:05took some pictures,
1:19:08took some of her underwear, and left.
1:19:14And the other woman,
1:19:17same kind of deal. Running through the
1:19:20back of the house.
1:19:24She was sleeping in her um not in her
1:19:27bedroom, but in her, you know, front of
1:19:30the TV.
1:19:32Very much the same story.
1:19:39Anything different about that story? I
1:19:42pretty much same story and exactly the
1:19:43same story or two different things,
1:19:44right?
1:19:45>> Yeah. No. Uh, not much different at all.
1:19:48Um, I did have the flashlight that time.
1:19:52I hit her with a flashlight
1:19:55and thinking it would knock around.
1:19:57Didn't.
1:19:59So,
1:20:01subdue her with my weight.
1:20:05Took off her clothes, took some
1:20:06pictures, and left.
1:20:15Why do you think these things happen?
1:20:33>> Have you spent much time thinking about
1:20:34that? About why?
1:20:36>> Yeah.
1:20:38Yeah,
1:20:43but I don't know the answers,
1:20:50>> man. I'm pretty sure the answers don't
1:20:52matter.
1:20:54Well, let me let me ask you this. Did
1:20:56you like or dislike these women?
1:21:00>> I didn't know any of them.
1:21:02[clears throat]
1:21:03>> Okay.
1:21:05I had met us that one time
1:21:08[clears throat]
1:21:08in that in our airplane.
1:21:11>> Okay. Now, I guess I I guess when you're
1:21:14going through these things, um
1:21:18are you Well, let me let's talk about
1:21:20Jessica cuz she was there with you for
1:21:23the whole day, right? What kind of
1:21:25feelings were you experiencing while you
1:21:27were with her that day?
1:21:44Oh, she's a French girl.
1:21:56Can you tell me why you killed her?
1:22:00Do you know why you killed her?
1:22:02>> Well, I think I killed her because I
1:22:03knew that uh
1:22:14her story would be recognized.
1:22:22Her story will be recognized. How do you
1:22:24mean?
1:22:26Well,
1:22:26>> cuz she knew I was taking pictures.
1:22:30Mhm.
1:22:37So because of the um two um
1:22:43stories in tweed
1:22:48that would have been a fairly
1:22:53been quite obvious.
1:22:58So, if you didn't take pictures, what
1:23:00would you have done with her?
1:23:05I don't know. I mean, she's at your
1:23:08house, right?
1:23:10Um,
1:23:12well, let me ask you this. Is it uh
1:23:17two lived, right, and two died?
1:23:21What's what was the difference in your
1:23:22mind between
1:23:24>> Well, the uh
1:23:27you know the attention the first two got
1:23:32um [clears throat]
1:23:34was very much f focused on
1:23:38obviously
1:23:40or for obvious reasons uh the pictures I
1:23:42took.
1:23:48So anybody else telling stories about
1:23:51pictures, right, would have been
1:23:55a fairly straight line.
1:24:02Okay. But when when this thing happened
1:24:04with Mary France,
1:24:06it was was did you believe that you were
1:24:10already a suspect for what happened in
1:24:14Tweet?
1:24:14>> No.
1:24:17So, what what were you concerned about?
1:24:22>> Well, because um
1:24:31I was pretty sure that uh
1:24:35you know, she was serving military,
1:24:37right?
1:24:38>> Mhm. [clears throat]
1:24:39It would have been uh
1:24:42it would have been difficult for
1:24:44investigators to ignore
1:24:47that connection.
1:24:51Okay.
1:24:53Yeah, makes sense. Um
1:24:59let's go back to Jessica then. Okay. Um
1:25:04you see her on the Wednesday night.
1:25:07Okay. on a treadmill.
1:25:09>> How [clears throat] do you see her?
1:25:11>> She was in the basement window wide open
1:25:14on a treadmill as I drove by.
1:25:20>> Okay. Did Did you stop to look at the
1:25:23house or how how does that catch your
1:25:25eye as you drive by?
1:25:28Well, I was looking to see who was who
1:25:31is where.
1:25:33Don't know that area very well. So, I
1:25:36was just keeping my eyes open.
1:25:40>> Okay.
1:25:43>> So, you spot her on the Wednesday?
1:25:45>> Yeah.
1:25:45>> Um, do you just keep on going or did you
1:25:47just stop and take a closer look that
1:25:49night or anything?
1:25:50>> No, I could not.
1:25:52>> Okay.
1:25:53>> And you went back on the Thursday night,
1:25:56right?
1:25:57>> Yep.
1:26:00So you go back on the Thursday night and
1:26:03you went you went into the house before
1:26:05she came home.
1:26:11Yeah, she was out.
1:26:14Okay.
1:26:21Um yeah, she was out. Got in through the
1:26:25kitchen window. It's unlocked.
1:26:27Everything else was locked.
1:26:32Okay. So, you're in there doing what?
1:26:38>> Looking around. Looking around to see
1:26:39who lived in the house.
1:26:42It was just her.
1:26:44>> Okay.
1:26:46And then what do you do?
1:26:55why I left the house
1:26:59and uh [clears throat]
1:27:09and then she came home.
1:27:12I'd been out of the house very long,
1:27:16so I watched for a little bit to see if
1:27:18she was alone.
1:27:22That's what
1:27:33I went in. She went back to sleep. I
1:27:35just went to sleep.
1:27:40Okay. So, you go in, she's sleeping,
1:27:43then what do you do?
1:27:49Cross. I snuck up to the side of her bed
1:27:56expecting to uh
1:28:01try to knock her out.
1:28:05She woke up,
1:28:10but she did. As I said,
1:28:14I didn't hit her.
1:28:16>> What did you say?
1:28:19lie down on your tummy.
1:28:23>> What?
1:28:23>> She did. I tied her up.
1:28:27>> What' you tie her up with?
1:28:29>> Some real bad front.
1:28:33>> So, she's on her stomach. How are you
1:28:35tying her up?
1:28:36>> Just ting her hands behind her back.
1:28:39>> Okay.
1:28:41She got clothes on at that point.
1:28:42>> Mhm.
1:28:44>> What kind of clothes?
1:28:47sweats,
1:28:49>> right?
1:28:51Tie her hands behind her back and then
1:28:52then what happens?
1:28:55Took her clothes off.
1:29:01>> Okay.
1:29:12And then what happened?
1:29:16I raped her.
1:29:21>> A rape can mean a lot of different
1:29:22things. What kind of sexual act took
1:29:25place?
1:29:33>> Vaginal and oral.
1:29:36>> Okay.
1:29:38Oral.
1:29:39Who was performing the oral sex?
1:29:45Um,
1:29:48no. Me on her and her on me.
1:29:51>> Okay.
1:29:53>> Any uh any condoms used or anything like
1:29:56that?
1:29:56>> No.
1:29:57>> No.
1:30:00So there, and again, correct me if I'm
1:30:02wrong, vaginal intercourse,
1:30:06uh, her performing oral sex on you, and
1:30:08you performing oral sex on her. Mhm.
1:30:10>> Do you remember what order those things
1:30:11occurred in?
1:30:13Yeah,
1:30:15I uh
1:30:18started with the oral sex
1:30:24then I raped her
1:30:27and then later on I made her
1:30:31for moral sex on me.
1:30:34Okay. [clears throat]
1:30:36Anything any kind of conversation
1:30:38happening when this is going on?
1:30:43Yeah, a little bit.
1:30:45>> What was being said?
1:30:50>> I threatened her before she uh
1:30:55before I had her
1:30:58perform oral sex.
1:31:02>> What did you say?
1:31:04>> I put a zip tie around her neck.
1:31:09I said uh
1:31:12that I would pull it if I didn't like
1:31:13what uh she would do it.
1:31:16>> Okay.
1:31:19So, she did what you told her to do?
1:31:22>> Mhm.
1:31:23>> Any issues there? Any
1:31:26reason to pull it?
1:31:27>> No.
1:31:30>> So, do you remember if you ejaculated at
1:31:33that point or at any point?
1:31:35>> Um, not at that point, but later on.
1:31:38Okay. So, the oral sex finishes and then
1:31:42what happens next?
1:31:49Well, I continued
1:31:56to to rape her and I had her put on some
1:31:58of her underwear.
1:32:01took some pictures, lots of pictures,
1:32:06[snorts]
1:32:07and then uh got her dressed,
1:32:12walked back to the truck.
1:32:14Okay. At what point did you decide that
1:32:17she was going to leave with you?
1:32:26I'm not sure that wasn't uh
1:32:29necessarily always the plan.
1:32:35But at some point uh I was there for
1:32:44three
1:32:463 hours. 3 and
1:32:54Okay.
1:32:58Um, do you remember the conversation
1:33:00about leaving? Was there any she say
1:33:03anything about that or
1:33:06what was she saying to you?
1:33:07>> She was um
1:33:14certainly cooperative.
1:33:18Okay.
1:33:26A cooperative can mean a number of
1:33:28different things. Was she excited about
1:33:29leaving with you? I don't want to be
1:33:31sarcastic, but um
1:33:33>> No, no. She just didn't put up too much
1:33:34of a fuss.
1:33:36>> Did she try and negotiate with you at
1:33:38all or
1:33:41>> What did she say?
1:33:43>> Well, I told her that I would uh
1:33:46let her go later on.
1:33:49>> Okay.
1:33:53So when you take her out of your house,
1:33:54is she is she still bound or
1:33:57>> Yep.
1:33:58>> How how is that done?
1:34:00>> Just uh hands behind her back.
1:34:03>> Okay. What about her feet? Anything
1:34:05there?
1:34:07>> No, she was walking freely.
1:34:09>> Okay.
1:34:10Barefoot or?
1:34:12>> No. No. She had those brown suede shoes
1:34:14on that had been reported.
1:34:17>> Okay.
1:34:21So, where does she sit in your truck
1:34:22when you get to the truck?
1:34:24>> Front seat, passenger side.
1:34:27>> Okay.
1:34:29>> And where do you go?
1:34:32>> Straight to Tweet.
1:34:34>> Straight to your house in Tweet or
1:34:35straight to just the town?
1:34:37>> Straight to the house.
1:34:38>> No stops anywhere?
1:34:39>> No.
1:34:39>> Okay. What time do you remember what
1:34:41time you arrived there?
1:34:47I don't exactly, but I'd say between
1:34:504:30 and 5:30.
1:34:52>> Okay.
1:34:56All right.
1:34:59When you were uh when you were first
1:35:00there before she came home, do you
1:35:02remember
1:35:04did anybody come to the door at all when
1:35:05you were in the house? No.
1:35:10>> No. I think somebody had come home.
1:35:12somebody had to come to the house just
1:35:13before she did cuz I thought it was her
1:35:16but then they left. I was outside at the
1:35:18time.
1:35:20>> Did you see who that person was or what
1:35:22kind of vehicle they were in or
1:35:23anything?
1:35:24>> I saw the lights and they assumed it was
1:35:25her and then all of a sudden they left.
1:35:28So I don't know what happened.
1:35:29>> Okay. Um where were you when that first
1:35:34vehicle pulled up? In
1:35:35>> the back back here.
1:35:37>> Okay.
1:35:39So you didn't have a view of the
1:35:40vehicle. You just tell that there was a
1:35:41vehicle there. Is that fair?
1:35:43>> Okay.
1:35:46So, you get home about 4:35, you say?
1:35:51>> Okay. And then what happens?
1:35:58Uh well, she um she had to go to the
1:36:01bathroom
1:36:05and uh
1:36:07a quick shower, washer.
1:36:12Then we went into my bedroom
1:36:18and
1:36:21to sleep a little bit. She was tied up.
1:36:28How was she tied up at that point?
1:36:33>> I put uh tape over her eyes from the
1:36:36beginning.
1:36:38So that's what she did.
1:36:40>> Okay.
1:36:43>> When they find her, is that tape going
1:36:45to be there or was it ever removed?
1:36:48>> No, never removed it.
1:36:50>> Okay. What kind of tape?
1:36:52>> 13. All right.
1:36:58>> The duct tape that you used, where's
1:37:00where's that roll?
1:37:02Uh, it's all gone. It um
1:37:07I used it to I used the rest of it to uh
1:37:10bind her
1:37:12bind her body.
1:37:17>> So, by all gone, is it is it with the
1:37:19body now? Okay.
1:37:23So you said who went to sleep when you
1:37:24came home. You had a sh or she had a
1:37:27shower.
1:37:28>> Well, we both got in. I washed her off
1:37:30after she'd been to the bathroom.
1:37:32We both went to sleep,
1:37:35but she was tied up and I tied the rope,
1:37:39you know, so I could fall asleep a
1:37:41little bit.
1:37:43She couldn't move without waking me up.
1:37:46>> Okay. I'm trying to picture how that
1:37:47would be. So the rope's tied to what on
1:37:49her? just tied her hands and her back.
1:37:53>> Okay. And it
1:37:55>> and then the rope just wrapped around me
1:37:58a couple of times, so there was no
1:38:00slack.
1:38:01>> Okay. Do you remember how long you slept
1:38:03for?
1:38:05>> Not long. Maybe a couple hours.
1:38:07>> Do you know if she slept?
1:38:10>> I don't know.
1:38:13>> Okay. So, you wake up and
1:38:15>> it wasn't We were up and down, up and
1:38:17down. So, it wasn't 2 hours straight or
1:38:212 hours in bed, but
1:38:23there wasn't much sleep, just lying
1:38:25there probably.
1:38:29>> So, you you get up from that and and
1:38:32what happens next?
1:38:38>> Um,
1:38:40she had a seizure
1:38:43actually.
1:38:48She felt it coming on and um
1:38:54cuz she had some before
1:39:00lasted uh
1:39:04quite a while. got her dressed
1:39:09into the uh family room and
1:39:18anyway she uh
1:39:21she recovered. She got uh
1:39:26obviously stress
1:39:31but uh
1:39:36yeah probably
1:39:38probably went on for about 15 minutes
1:39:41sort of.
1:39:50So,
1:39:51>> how do you know she had them before?
1:39:53>> She told me.
1:39:55>> Did she tell you why she had them?
1:39:57>> Well, she suggested it was stress.
1:40:01>> Yeah. So, she felt herself
1:40:04start to tense up and
1:40:07said she thought she was going to have a
1:40:08seizure.
1:40:16Yeah. So, she was she was Oops.
1:40:20Yeah. Convulsions and so she was
1:40:24okay.
1:40:26>> So she was recovered from that.
1:40:28>> Yeah. She um I stayed with her and
1:40:32talked her
1:40:35make sure she
1:40:38bite her tongue.
1:40:43Okay.
1:40:47And then what happened?
1:40:50Well, let me have a little lie down
1:40:51right there cuz she was obviously
1:40:53exhausted.
1:40:57Put a cover over her.
1:41:01She went to sleep.
1:41:07Wait for an hour or so.
1:41:10And I had told her um earlier that
1:41:13before I let her go, I wanted to take
1:41:15some pictures of her in her underwear
1:41:21and uh
1:41:27have sex with her.
1:41:37So after she'd had uh a rest for an hour
1:41:40or so,
1:41:44I had her put on
1:41:51a number of different outfits she had.
1:41:54I'm sorry. Put on a number, you know,
1:41:57pairs,
1:42:00panties, bra that she had that got taken
1:42:03from theirs.
1:42:07So, she put those on and I took
1:42:09pictures.
1:42:11Okay.
1:42:16>> Are you in any of these pictures?
1:42:19>> Yep.
1:42:24What kind of im What kind of images are
1:42:26you in?
1:42:31Um,
1:42:39while I'm with her, there's
1:42:42on the hard drives. You'll see there's
1:42:43video as well.
1:42:46So, there's video of the uh
1:42:55almost 4 hours, I guess.
1:42:59of what?
1:43:06Well, of uh
1:43:14initially at her place of uh me raping
1:43:16her
1:43:21and then uh
1:43:25yeah, so I was running the video
1:43:28and then taking still [music] pictures.
1:43:30So the video pretty much covers
1:43:32everything.
1:43:34Okay.
1:43:35>> Did you use video at other places?
1:43:38>> Uh at many Frances as well.
1:43:42>> Okay.
1:43:43>> And is that video on the hard drives?
1:43:45>> Yeah.
1:43:46>> Same type of uh
1:43:49activity.
1:43:50>> Yeah.
1:43:52>> Oh, I didn't have her put on any stuff.
1:43:56>> Okay.
1:43:59So
1:44:00Jessica poses for these pictures and
1:44:02there's videos and um and then what
1:44:05happens
1:44:11then? Um I got her dressed.
1:44:15She thought she was leaving.
1:44:20A tea
1:44:22fruit.
1:44:26And then as we were walking out, uh, I
1:44:28struck her on the back of the head.
1:44:33>> Okay. When did you decide to do that?
1:44:54Well, I was uh pretty sure that I wasn't
1:44:56going to let her leave, but um
1:45:03yeah,
1:45:05the idea of striking her on the head was
1:45:09developed in the afternoon.
1:45:15And what was that strike supposed to
1:45:17accomplish in your mind? What was the
1:45:19intent of of doing that?
1:45:22>> Well, I thought I would be able to knock
1:45:24her out and then I was I was going to
1:45:26strangle her.
1:45:28>> Okay.
1:45:31So, when you actually do strike her,
1:45:32what what's the result?
1:45:36>> Her skull gave way a little bit.
1:45:41felt like and there was a lot of blood.
1:45:43So I think that's what happened.
1:45:46She was immediately unconscious
1:46:00and then I um strangled her.
1:46:05>> How'd you strangle her?
1:46:08Uh the same rope.
1:46:11Just put it around her neck. Okay.
1:46:15Well, she was uh unconscious.
1:46:22Now, what happened to the zip tie that
1:46:24was around her neck earlier?
1:46:30I took it off. Uh
1:46:38around.
1:46:44>> Did you take it off before you put the
1:46:45rope around her neck or or after or do
1:46:47you remember?
1:46:48>> After she was dead.
1:46:51Oh,
1:46:51>> okay. So, the zip tie was around her
1:46:52neck while you used the rope. Mhm. Okay.
1:46:55Did you leave the rope around her neck?
1:46:58No. Okay.
1:47:01And how did you know she was dead?
1:47:11She um
1:47:16well her body stopped moving.
1:47:23Okay.
1:47:25>> So what did you do after that? Okay.
1:47:29I uh I bound her up.
1:47:36There's field position
1:47:48and uh cleaned up the floor.
1:48:05No, you say you bound her up. Is that
1:48:06Are you referring to the duct tape that
1:48:08you talked about earlier?
1:48:09>> Yeah.
1:48:09>> Okay. So then what did you do?
1:48:16I um put her in the garage.
1:48:21It was very cold.
1:48:28And then I went into the base.
1:48:32Okay.
1:48:36Why'd you go to the base?
1:48:37>> Pardon me.
1:48:38>> Why'd you go to the base?
1:48:40>> Cuz I was flying early the next morning.
1:48:43>> Okay. So, what time did you leave to go
1:48:46to the base?
1:48:49I told you about between 9 and 10 or so
1:48:53on the Friday night.
1:48:54>> Yep. Okay.
1:48:57So you fly and
1:49:01>> then I drove home to Iowa.
1:49:06>> So which night would you?
1:49:09>> Saturday night.
1:49:10>> So you land uh in
1:49:13what time are you landing?
1:49:15>> 600 6:30.
1:49:16>> Okay. Saturday night.
1:49:18>> Did you go by the house in Tweed on your
1:49:20way to Ottawa or?
1:49:21>> No.
1:49:23Um, so you drove straight home to
1:49:25Ottawa.
1:49:27What time did you get there? I can't do
1:49:28remember. Sometime before midnight. I
1:49:31can't quite remember, but uh I think I
1:49:33went in the office first. Did some work.
1:49:39So I think I got home to Ottawa just
1:49:42before getting into my
1:49:45I think. Not sure. I
1:49:50I slept for a little bit in at the Tim
1:49:52Hortons in Brockville,
1:49:54so it might be later. I honestly can't
1:49:56remember when I got done, but Okay.
1:49:58Yeah. Midnightish
1:50:01Saturday. Mhm.
1:50:15So, you get home, you're in Ottawa, what
1:50:18do you do? Go to bed or Yeah. stay up.
1:50:22Okay.
1:50:23So, then what do you do the next day?
1:50:29Well, my wife and I did some stuff. I
1:50:32can't remember what uh
1:50:35what was going on that day.
1:50:39putting together the new house
1:50:44and I had it back to tweet that night.
1:50:48Mhm.
1:50:50Sorry. Sorry. Um,
1:50:55no, I didn't. I had uh I had Monday off.
1:51:01That's right. I had Monday off and then
1:51:02I was visiting uh one of the units in
1:51:04Ottawa on Tuesday. So, I didn't get back
1:51:08to tweet till Tuesday night.
1:51:11Okay. [clears throat]
1:51:16So, you get back to tweet and what
1:51:19happens next?
1:51:23>> I uh took Jessica's body to that spot.
1:51:27>> Okay. That happened on Tuesday night.
1:51:31Just this past Tuesday, obviously. Okay.
1:51:34Do you remember what time that was?
1:51:37It was pretty late. It was uh
1:51:39midnightish.
1:51:41I'd say between midnight and 1:00
1:51:44on uh Wednesday morning.
1:51:49Okay.
1:51:50Um
1:51:53what made you decide to to measure that
1:51:55distance
1:51:56that 7 km?
1:52:00>> That's just the way I am. Numbers
1:52:04have to know the numbers.
1:52:06Okay.
1:52:08>> And um how did you leave her?
1:52:14>> I just left her tuck behind a um a
1:52:17fairly large rock.
1:52:21>> Is that duct tape still on her?
1:52:24>> Um and
1:52:26what else is on her?
1:52:28a couple of towels wrapped around her
1:52:30head
1:52:32and uh the top and pants she was
1:52:34wearing, jeans.
1:52:37Okay.
1:52:40Did you ever go back there?
1:52:42>> No.
1:52:44Right.
1:52:50Um what other type of cleaning and
1:52:52things like that did you do? Anything
1:52:54else to kind of cover your tracks you
1:52:56can think of?
1:52:59I vacuumed the house and I uh wiped the
1:53:02the floor. Washed the floor. Okay.
1:53:08>> What about your truck? Did you do
1:53:09anything with that?
1:53:11>> Just
1:53:14wash today cuz it was a mess and
1:53:17vacuum.
1:53:19Okay.
1:53:29Um,
1:53:32so Marie Fron,
1:53:36when did uh when did it first occur to
1:53:38you to go to her house?
1:53:46Uh,
1:53:49probably in October.
1:53:52October, November. Not quite sure, but
1:53:54somewhere in that time frame.
1:54:02>> And do you you remember why you that you
1:54:05thought to
1:54:06um to do that?
1:54:15Uh well,
1:54:17you know, she had said she lived alone
1:54:22when the one time I met her.
1:54:24>> Mhm.
1:54:37Okay.
1:54:39Um,
1:54:42I understand the dozens of other women
1:54:45you probably come across on a daily
1:54:46basis.
1:54:56Yeah.
1:55:04And I went out there uh when she wasn't
1:55:06home just to see where she lived. And
1:55:12when did you do that?
1:55:14A
1:55:14>> couple of nights before.
1:55:18>> How did you know her address?
1:55:22when I was a non roll for the basement.
1:55:26>> Okay.
1:55:28>> So, when you go out there a couple of
1:55:30nights before, do you remember what
1:55:31night that was when you were there first
1:55:33time?
1:55:38>> I don't uh but it was within two or
1:55:41three nights, I think.
1:55:43>> Okay. Probably about no more than four
1:55:46anyway. Something like that.
1:55:48And did you actually go into her house
1:55:50on that occasion or did you uh Okay. So,
1:55:53what happened that night? How did you
1:55:54How did you get into her house?
1:55:55>> This window on the side of the basement
1:55:58side window.
1:55:59>> Okay.
1:56:02Just a backst step of it. How did you
1:56:04get to our house that that first night
1:56:06you went there?
1:56:08>> I drove.
1:56:09>> What did you drive?
1:56:13>> Uh I think I drove my truck.
1:56:17Pathfinder.
1:56:19Do you remember where you parked it?
1:56:23>> Yeah, I parked it um
1:56:27bit of a division in the
1:56:30residential area there. I parked it on
1:56:31another side
1:56:346 700 m away. Okay. So, not on her
1:56:38street on a different street. Remember
1:56:39what street you parked on?
1:56:40>> No, but it's uh actually might be the
1:56:42same street, but there's an interruption
1:56:44in the street where there's a
1:56:45construction zone.
1:56:48There's a pathway in between. So, I
1:56:51think it's probably the same street.
1:56:53>> Okay.
1:56:54So, uh you go to her house and when you
1:56:58went there that night, did you know that
1:56:59she was away?
1:57:04>> Uh I'm not sure if I knew entirely, but
1:57:06I I I think I thought she was away.
1:57:10>> Okay.
1:57:12Is that based on her schedule or or how
1:57:15it
1:57:16How would you?
1:57:17>> Uh, well, my Yeah, cuz I fly with a
1:57:19squadron. I have access to the schedule
1:57:21and
1:57:23it's a slightly different schedule, but
1:57:26that's probably how I am.
1:57:28>> You don't know for sure.
1:57:33>> I think that's probably how I am.
1:57:34>> Okay. So, you go to our house
1:57:38>> and what do you do that night? the first
1:57:41night.
1:57:43>> My mother looked around and uh
1:57:49I'm sure that she was living there
1:57:52alone.
1:57:57>> And I'm sorry. Did you say I can't
1:57:59remember if you said how did you get in?
1:58:01>> Same same like side basement window.
1:58:05>> Side basement window.
1:58:06>> Okay.
1:58:07>> Do you remember what kind of window it
1:58:08is? like what made it uh
1:58:10>> well I just noticed it was notice the
1:58:13flashlight I can see that it was not
1:58:14locked it had been open slightly
1:58:17so I had to remove the screen so that it
1:58:19open went in okay
1:58:23so you go in and uh you're in her house
1:58:26figuring out she lives alone and uh do
1:58:29you do anything that night
1:58:34>> yeah I was playing with her uh
1:58:39underwear.
1:58:44>> You mean playing with her underwear?
1:58:51>> Wearing it.
1:58:53Okay.
1:58:54Doing anything else?
1:59:01I didn't touch her stuff.
1:59:09What do you mean you didn't touch her
1:59:10stuff? I mean, you touched her
1:59:11underwear, but
1:59:12>> Yeah. Yeah. Nothing else.
1:59:16Did you take any of the underwear with
1:59:17you that night?
1:59:20>> Yeah, a few pieces.
1:59:22Where did you find the underwear when
1:59:24you went in
1:59:26your drawer?
1:59:30>> Was it clean? Was it used for clean?
1:59:34Yeah.
1:59:36Um,
1:59:38anything else you can remember doing
1:59:40that evening that you
1:59:42>> No.
1:59:44All right.
1:59:47So, um,
1:59:50after that first visit, did you return
1:59:52again before meeting up with her?
1:59:55>> No. Okay.
1:59:59So, which day did you go to her house
2:00:02when she was there?
2:00:08Well, the night before I went to Ottawa,
2:00:10so I think that was Monday night,
2:00:16right?
2:00:17Um, so let's walk through that. Uh, what
2:00:19time do you think you got there?
2:00:23About 11 or so. Probably 10:31.
2:00:28Okay.
2:00:33Yeah. So, she was on the phone in her
2:00:35room.
2:00:38You could hear that uh from the
2:00:40backyard.
2:00:43I got in through the uh side window.
2:00:47>> The same basement window.
2:00:49>> Mhm.
2:00:51>> How could you hear from the backyard?
2:00:52What was uh just
2:00:54>> hear her on the phone
2:00:57from beside beside the house?
2:01:00hear through the walls that she was on
2:01:02the phone. Okay.
2:01:04>> Any idea who she was talking to or what
2:01:05she was talking about? No. Didn't
2:01:07>> hear that one.
2:01:09>> Okay. So, you go in through the basement
2:01:11window
2:01:13and what are you wearing when this is
2:01:14happening?
2:01:17Um,
2:01:24sweatshirts,
2:01:28I guess.
2:01:30And the uh two pieces on my head. Okay.
2:01:35And
2:01:35>> where are those two pieces now?
2:01:38>> Pieces that you wore on the head.
2:01:43>> Uh they're probably in my bag and um my
2:01:46luggage bag and Edison in the bedroom.
2:01:51>> What's your luggage bag look like?
2:01:54It's um a blue
2:01:57duffel bag type thing. It's right beside
2:02:00the bed.
2:02:02>> Is it the only blue duffel bag in your
2:02:03bedroom?
2:02:04>> Mhm.
2:02:05>> Um and these pieces, what do they look
2:02:08like again?
2:02:09>> It's a blue headband.
2:02:12>> Okay.
2:02:13standard blue, you know, winter headband
2:02:17and black
2:02:20skull cap type thing.
2:02:23>> Any insignas or anything on them?
2:02:26>> Yeah, there are, but I don't know what
2:02:27they are. The blue headband has
2:02:29something stitched,
2:02:34a name of some sort stitched on it.
2:02:38And the uh skull cap has some sort of
2:02:40emblem on white emblem on the black.
2:02:42>> Don't know what it is.
2:02:44>> Are they like sports emblems or company
2:02:46emblems or
2:02:48>> It's the manufacturers.
2:02:52>> Okay.
2:02:53Anything else in that blue uh duffel
2:02:55bag?
2:02:58I think so.
2:03:00>> Is it full of of of things other than
2:03:02just my clothes?
2:03:04>> Okay.
2:03:06Um,
2:03:09so you go in, uh, do you remember what
2:03:11you had on your feet
2:03:16in the house there
2:03:17>> when you went to Marie France's house?
2:03:22>> Probably running shoes.
2:03:24There wasn't snow on the ground.
2:03:28>> So, you go in and you're in the basement
2:03:32and uh, whereabouts in the basement are
2:03:34you?
2:03:38um by the furnace.
2:03:41>> Okay. And what are you doing? What what
2:03:43uh what's your what's your sort of plan
2:03:45at that point?
2:03:46>> I was wait for a bit.
2:03:50>> Okay. And how long did that take?
2:03:52>> Well, she didn't Okay. And then she came
2:03:55down looking for the cat.
2:03:58>> All right.
2:04:01And uh what happens next?
2:04:05As I described, I subdued her
2:04:08with a flashlight,
2:04:14but essentially
2:04:19wrestled her to the ground and tied her
2:04:20up.
2:04:26Okay. And
2:04:26>> what did you use to tie her up?
2:04:29>> Same rope. Green rope.
2:04:32It's in tweed.
2:04:34Is it just grain or like uh How long is
2:04:37this piece of rope?
2:04:40>> It's probably um
2:04:4220 ft. It's
2:04:46a boat boat rope. It's got some red
2:04:48specks in it, I think.
2:04:51Okay.
2:04:52Is there lots of ropes in tweet or is
2:04:54this probably the only rope?
2:04:58No, this uh they're two two lengths.
2:05:05>> Two lengths of the same green rope.
2:05:07>> And were they both used?
2:05:11>> Uh well, I I only ever had one with me,
2:05:13so I don't know if I used the same piece
2:05:15both times or not, but only two lengths
2:05:19of rope.
2:05:20>> Okay. So, you tie her tie her up. How
2:05:22did you tie her up when you obviously do
2:05:25that? Okay.
2:05:27And what is she wearing at that point?
2:05:30>> She wasn't wearing anything to start
2:05:31with.
2:05:33>> So when she came down to the basement,
2:05:35she had no clothes on.
2:05:37>> She had some sort of a shaw over her
2:05:38shoulder.
2:05:40>> Okay.
2:05:41>> She immediately dropped when she saw me.
2:05:44>> Did she say anything when she saw you?
2:05:48>> She did. She
2:05:51called out, "You bastard."
2:05:56Okay.
2:05:57And then what happened?
2:06:01>> Then I subdued her as I described by
2:06:04hitting her with that red flashlight.
2:06:07>> Okay.
2:06:08>> Although they were more glancing
2:06:12glancing blows cut her skin but weren't
2:06:15doing much else. Okay.
2:06:18>> She fell over and then I subdued.
2:06:21She tripped.
2:06:24How did you tie her at that point? Like
2:06:27I know you used the rope, but what were
2:06:28what did you tie her up up like?
2:06:31>> Just pull her put her pulled her hands
2:06:33behind her back and just tied her wrist
2:06:36together.
2:06:37>> Okay.
2:06:39>> Then what happened after that?
2:06:42>> Then I took her upstairs.
2:06:49>> Did she go upstairs under her own power
2:06:51or did you carry her? No, she passed out
2:06:54um on the stairs
2:06:58and then I carried her up.
2:07:03>> Why do you think she passed out?
2:07:06>> I suspect uh
2:07:09from the heads to her head.
2:07:14>> So you carried up to where?
2:07:16>> To her bedroom. Put her on the bed.
2:07:19>> Okay.
2:07:21And then what happened?
2:07:31Uh
2:07:34well, as I described, I think I uh she
2:07:38on the bed. I raped her
2:07:41over a period of time.
2:07:45Okay. And again, just to be specific,
2:07:47what what sex acts took place?
2:07:50>> Just vaginal.
2:07:53>> Your penis and her vagina?
2:07:55>> Yeah.
2:07:56>> Any condom use?
2:07:57>> No.
2:07:58>> Did you ejaculate?
2:07:59>> No.
2:08:02>> Did you ejaculate at any point with her?
2:08:04>> No.
2:08:05>> Okay.
2:08:08Um,
2:08:11just before I forget, you I think I
2:08:13asked you
2:08:15don't mean to bounce around on your
2:08:16Russ, but with Jessica, I asked you
2:08:19about ejaculation. You said you didn't
2:08:21at that point. When did you ejaculate
2:08:23with Jessica?
2:08:24>> Um,
2:08:27the second time or third time that I had
2:08:30her
2:08:32four oral sex.
2:08:35And was that at her residence or yours?
2:08:38>> Hers. Okay.
2:08:40>> Any other times that you ejaculated with
2:08:42her?
2:08:44>> Okay.
2:08:46Um,
2:08:48when you ejaculated with Jessica, did
2:08:51you use anything to clean up or
2:08:54No.
2:08:58>> What happened to the ejaculate?
2:09:02You swallowed it. Okay.
2:09:06Um, so getting back to Marie Fron, it's
2:09:09just straight vaginal sex, no condom, no
2:09:12ejaculation. Is that right? Yeah. Okay.
2:09:16Um,
2:09:18how long does that go for?
2:09:21Like how long were you engaged in that
2:09:23activity?
2:09:28Uh
2:09:29well,
2:09:33>> hour and a half, 2 hours, I guess.
2:09:36>> Okay. And then what happens next?
2:09:43>> Well, as I described, I suffocated her
2:09:45using um duct tape.
2:09:52>> Why did you decide to to do that?
2:10:03Well, again, because of the pictures
2:10:07as I described here, it would have uh
2:10:11it was going to be a pretty straight
2:10:12line back to tweak.
2:10:17Okay. But why why why did you decide to
2:10:20use that method versus something else?
2:10:34I had uh
2:10:38thought about strangling her earlier.
2:10:46That's on the video.
2:10:49What is
2:10:51>> my uh
2:10:54well
2:10:57it was a short shortlived attempt cuz
2:11:00she struggled quite a bit
2:11:04and then I
2:11:08decided that I needed to suffocate her.
2:11:14So a shortlived attempt strangler
2:11:17and what's on the video, the suffocation
2:11:19or the strangling?
2:11:21>> Well, just me putting my hand on her
2:11:23throat
2:11:30and then her uh responding
2:11:34surprise very aggressively.
2:11:38Okay. any videos of the uh the
2:11:42suffocation part or pictures of that?
2:11:44No.
2:11:46Okay.
2:11:48Um now you you mentioned that you
2:11:50brought the rope with you. Where did the
2:11:51duct tape come from?
2:11:52>> I brought it.
2:11:54>> Okay.
2:11:55And what did you do with it afterwards?
2:12:00I think it uh
2:12:04did it stay in tweet.
2:12:06What color duct tape are we talking
2:12:08about? I know it comes in a variety of
2:12:10colors with gray.
2:12:11>> Gray.
2:12:13Um,
2:12:16so before
2:12:18uh the suffocation um obviously how long
2:12:21do you think you were with her
2:12:24from the point how long do you think you
2:12:26were in that house from the point you
2:12:28went in that window to the point you
2:12:29left?
2:12:34>> Probably um
2:12:364 hours.
2:12:38Okay.
2:12:40So, correct me if I'm wrong. Did you say
2:12:42you were got there at 11:00 or around
2:12:4611:00?
2:12:47>> I think that's right.
2:12:48>> Okay.
2:12:50So, you like you left around 3:00 in the
2:12:53morning.
2:12:56>> Well, I was in the basement for quite a
2:12:58while before she came down. I She wasn't
2:13:02going to bed, so I was probably in the
2:13:05basement for 30, 40 minutes. Okay.
2:13:09>> So,
2:13:11by the time
2:13:13she saw me, it was probably closer to
2:13:15midnight.
2:13:18>> All right.
2:13:20Um,
2:13:22but I didn't have a watch on, so I'm not
2:13:23sure.
2:13:27>> Any gloves?
2:13:37>> I don't think so.
2:13:39>> Did you wear gloves with Jessica?
2:13:43>> Uh, only to get in the house.
2:13:46It was a very cold night.
2:13:50And what about the two women in uh in
2:13:52Tweed?
2:13:56>> So, while you're with Marie Fron,
2:14:00what kind of conversations are taking
2:14:02place? Anything she said to you stick
2:14:04out in your mind? No,
2:14:06>> I taped her mouth.
2:14:08There's no conversation.
2:14:10>> Okay. When did you tape her mouth?
2:14:13[snorts]
2:14:15>> Soon as I got her up to the bedroom. Why
2:14:17did you decide to do that?
2:14:20>> Because she was uh
2:14:26you know quite aggressive.
2:14:30>> In what ways?
2:14:31>> I was confident she was uh would have
2:14:34screamed the chance.
2:14:40>> What way was she did initially?
2:14:42>> Did she in the basement?
2:14:46So, in what way was she aggressive?
2:14:47>> Well, just in
2:14:50when she discovered me, she was very
2:14:53vocal,
2:14:54screamed quite a bit
2:14:58until I subdued her. So, I expected she
2:15:01would scream again given the chance.
2:15:04Okay.
2:15:07Do you remember how you left her
2:15:08residence?
2:15:13Back door.
2:15:15patio door.
2:15:17>> Okay.
2:15:19Did you take anything with you that
2:15:21night?
2:15:23>> Some of her underwear.
2:15:26>> Anything else?
2:15:28No.
2:15:30>> All right.
2:15:31Um, did you do anything else to try and
2:15:35uh cover your tracks with me, France?
2:15:48Well, I had turned off my Blackberry
2:15:50before I left.
2:15:55Other than that, no.
2:16:00Do you remember trying to destroy any
2:16:01kind of evidence there or anything you
2:16:03thought may have uh produced evidence or
2:16:06anything? Oh, I took her sheets off the
2:16:09bed and ran them through the laundry.
2:16:12Okay.
2:16:15>> Like the laundry where
2:16:17>> in her house.
2:16:18>> Okay. Did you run it completely through?
2:16:20Did you wait for it to finish or?
2:16:21>> No, I just put them in and put a whole
2:16:24bunch of bleach in and let it go.
2:16:27>> Okay.
2:16:29So, the night you went to her house and
2:16:31got there at 11:00, you came from where?
2:16:36Like you said you left Trenton, you
2:16:37turned off your Blackberry.
2:16:43Did you talking about the base or you
2:16:44talking about uh where did you leave to
2:16:46go to her house?
2:16:48>> Well, I just turned off my Blackberry
2:16:50before I left the Trenton area.
2:16:53Um I would have left from the base after
2:16:56work.
2:16:58>> All right. When did you turn when did
2:17:00you uh what time do you think you turned
2:17:02the Blackberry off?
2:17:07Well, it's only a half hour drive to
2:17:09Brighton, so
2:17:14probably in the 9 9:30 range. Okay. Do
2:17:18you remember what uh
2:17:21what time you would have turned it back
2:17:22on?
2:17:24>> I was back on the 41 heading to Ottawa
2:17:26the next morning.
2:17:28>> What time was that?
2:17:29>> So,
2:17:316 plus or - 30 minutes.
2:17:34Okay. So, you leave her house 3ish?
2:17:38>> No, I think it was later than that. So,
2:17:40the 4 hours obviously was
2:17:44I think uh
2:17:47I think went in about 11:00.
2:17:49Was in the basement for quite a while.
2:17:52Probably left her house closer to 4 4:30
2:17:55somewhere in there.
2:17:59>> Okay. And where did you go?
2:18:04Uh,
2:18:04>> I drove to Ottawa.
2:18:06>> Straight to Ottawa.
2:18:08>> Did you go by your house and tweet or
2:18:10anything or did you just go straight
2:18:11home? What route you took?
2:18:16Uh, yeah. 41. But from her place, uh,
2:18:23I think I went straight north on, uh,
2:18:26whatever the road is that goes straight
2:18:27through Brighton up to the 41. at the
2:18:29401 and headed east.
2:18:32>> Okay.
2:18:34>> And so you're going to what's the
2:18:37meeting you're having that day in
2:18:39Ottawa? Remind me.
2:18:40>> Meeting on the C17 acquisition project.
2:18:44>> Okay. And who ran that meeting?
2:18:46>> The project manager, Miss uh Sue Hail.
2:18:51Okay.
2:18:53>> Is that the only meeting around that
2:18:54time period you would have went to on
2:18:56that issue with Sue Hail?
2:18:58There wasn't like a weekly meeting or
2:19:00anything like that.
2:19:01>> No, this is sort of a quarterly.
2:19:04>> All right. Um,
2:19:08so the night you went the night this
2:19:11happened, um, where did you park uh,
2:19:14that night?
2:19:17As I said, across the gravel roadway.
2:19:20Probably it's probably the same road.
2:19:22Okay. Similar location to the first
2:19:24night.
2:19:26>> Yeah. All
2:19:28right. Same same vehicle.
2:19:34>> Yeah. Truck. Okay.
2:19:38All right. Um
2:19:42Okay. Let's talk about uh the Well,
2:19:46seeing as we're going backwards in time
2:19:47here, why don't we talk about the second
2:19:48incident in Tweed um
2:19:54with uh Lori Masakotti.
2:19:57And it's a a 76 Cozy Cove.
2:20:06How did you uh decide on her?
2:20:11I knew she lived alone.
2:20:16And how did you know that?
2:20:20She was three doors down and uh
2:20:25didn't know her, but I knew she was
2:20:28pretty lonely. She had boyfriend and
2:20:31hadn't seemed to be hadn't been around,
2:20:41you know,
2:20:43looked in the window and she was alone.
2:20:47Okay.
2:20:47>> So, she she had a boyfriend, but he
2:20:49wasn't too frequent.
2:20:51>> Okay.
2:20:51>> Well, he was she told me that they were
2:20:53fighting, so that's why he had been
2:20:56>> Okay.
2:20:58So, um
2:21:04did you look in her house before the
2:21:06night that this this incident happened
2:21:08or when did you do that? I had been in
2:21:11uh
2:21:12within a week,
2:21:15probably a couple of nights earlier.
2:21:18>> What did you do that night?
2:21:23>> I um
2:21:26I looked around to see if there were any
2:21:30permanent signs of her boyfriend. I
2:21:31guess
2:21:35took uh
2:21:38one or two pieces of underwear.
2:21:45So,
2:21:48okay.
2:21:50So, the night you go there, um when the
2:21:54incident happens, uh remember what time
2:21:55that was?
2:21:58>> It was pretty late. Um, I probably got
2:22:01into the house around midnight. She was
2:22:03asleep on the couch. Well, I didn't know
2:22:05that, but I knew she was in there.
2:22:09And how did you get in? Sorry.
2:22:11>> Uh, window in the back of the house.
2:22:15There's a little
2:22:17sun room.
2:22:19>> Was it just something you had to slide
2:22:21or or how did you get remove the screen
2:22:23and uh slide it up?
2:22:26>> Okay.
2:22:30So, I got into the house and um
2:22:34she was asleep in front of the TV.
2:22:42Wearing anything on your face that
2:22:44night?
2:22:44>> Yeah, same things.
2:22:46>> Okay. The headband and the uh the cap.
2:22:49Okay.
2:22:51Um
2:22:53what kind of clothes did you have on?
2:22:57just dark sweatshirt or pants,
2:23:02right?
2:23:03So, she's asleep on the couch. You're in
2:23:05there and then what happens?
2:23:10We have been through this.
2:23:12>> I know.
2:23:12>> I struck her with the uh flashlight
2:23:15thinking it would knock her out. It
2:23:16didn't. We struggled. I subdued her,
2:23:20took some pictures, left. It's probably
2:23:23in the house.
2:23:262 and 1/2 hours.
2:23:31That's a pretty short description for 2
2:23:33and 1/2 hours.
2:23:37Well,
2:23:39we talked. I uh
2:23:46I told her I wasn't going to hurt her.
2:23:54I uh I told her that there were other
2:23:58guys in the house robbing her.
2:24:03My job was just to control her.
2:24:14What did she say to that?
2:24:18She was scared.
2:24:23I was worried she was going to be
2:24:24seriously hurt.
2:24:29>> Did she say that or did you just assume
2:24:31that?
2:24:31>> No, no, she said that she was
2:24:38she was worried she was going to be
2:24:40killed. I said, "I'm not going to kill
2:24:41you."
2:24:45What did you do with uh you said you
2:24:48took pictures of her? Um clothed,
2:24:50unclothed?
2:24:52Uh both.
2:24:54Clothe actually and then unclothed.
2:25:01Are you in any of those pictures?
2:25:05I don't think so. You just took them.
2:25:09What kind of camera are you using, by
2:25:11the way? But uh
2:25:14it's a digital uh son.
2:25:17>> You just have the one camera.
2:25:19>> Yeah.
2:25:21>> And the video camera
2:25:23>> also they're two separate.
2:25:25>> Yeah.
2:25:26>> Some cameras take take video, right? Um
2:25:29and where is the camera and the and the
2:25:31video camera?
2:25:35>> Then tweet.
2:25:39Is it the only camera and video camera
2:25:41in that house?
2:25:43>> Yep. Okay.
2:25:46All right. Um,
2:25:50do you take pictures of her? And how do
2:25:52you end up leaving?
2:25:54Did you uh
2:25:56I just told her to uh
2:26:02uh count or wait for uh
2:26:05number of minutes before uh
2:26:08before she called the police?
2:26:11Okay.
2:26:13And did you leave immediately or did you
2:26:14stay there for a while? See what she was
2:26:16going to do or I left.
2:26:18>> Yeah. Um and where did you go?
2:26:22>> Home. Straight home.
2:26:25>> Did you
2:26:27Did you wait to see if the police showed
2:26:29up or anything or
2:26:31>> No,
2:26:33it's so what did you do when you got
2:26:36home on your feet?
2:26:39>> I went to sleep.
2:26:41>> Okay.
2:26:42What did you do the next day?
2:26:47Went to work normal time.
2:26:49Okay. a couple hours later.
2:26:56All right. Um,
2:27:01do you remember how uh her clothing was
2:27:03removed?
2:27:09>> Uh, well, cuz her hands were tied behind
2:27:12her back. I think I cut off her top and
2:27:14then pulled off her bottom.
2:27:16>> What did you use to cut her top?
2:27:19Um,
2:27:25I can't remember if it was a knife or
2:27:28like a folding X-Acto knife or
2:27:30Leatherman or one of the two.
2:27:34>> Are these items that are in your house
2:27:35in Tweet?
2:27:37>> Yep.
2:27:38>> Okay.
2:27:39Was there ever any other time you used a
2:27:42a knife to cut off clothing or anything
2:27:44else? Do you remember?
2:27:47I cut off Jessica's uh top with a knife
2:27:51so her hands were tied behind her back.
2:27:55>> That's all. Okay. Where's that knife?
2:27:58Which knife do you use?
2:27:59>> That was a Leatherman.
2:28:00>> That was a leather.
2:28:01>> Tweet.
2:28:03>> Is it the only Leatherman in in Tweet?
2:28:05>> Mhm. Okay. Um
2:28:09so on the 16th September,
2:28:12uh when you went in that night, was that
2:28:14the first time you've been at her house?
2:28:16Yep.
2:28:18Okay. And why her
2:28:21just cuz I had seen her and
2:28:24she was cute.
2:28:27That's it.
2:28:29Okay.
2:28:30So, there was no
2:28:32um you didn't go into her house before
2:28:34that that night?
2:28:36>> No.
2:28:38All right.
2:28:39Um so, you go in and how'd you get into
2:28:43her house?
2:28:46side window.
2:28:48The uh
2:28:51was not locked.
2:28:53Cut the screen, slid the window, curled
2:28:55in.
2:28:57>> Okay.
2:29:00And uh what you're wearing?
2:29:03>> Same. Switch your dark pants and
2:29:06>> the same hat and M. Okay.
2:29:12Uh,
2:29:14and where do you find uh in bed? Sleep.
2:29:19Okay. And what do you do?
2:29:23Stood over her for a while and I uh hit
2:29:26her on the left side of her head just
2:29:28with my hand.
2:29:32Just woke her up. We struggled.
2:29:40Yeah. just play on her
2:29:48and uh very much like I described a
2:29:51little bit ago,
2:29:53took off her
2:29:56pulled her top down
2:29:58and took off her pants,
2:30:01took some pictures, left.
2:30:04Do you remember her saying anything to
2:30:05you?
2:30:07>> Yes. What did she say to her?
2:30:11all kinds of things. Um,
2:30:16she had a
2:30:18a young baby just uh next door the other
2:30:22room 8 months or so.
2:30:26Was obviously concerned about the baby,
2:30:30concerned for herself. I assured her I
2:30:32was not going to hurt her
2:30:36physically.
2:30:45Okay.
2:30:48Um, any underwear taken from or Lori?
2:30:53>> Yeah, both.
2:30:54>> And where would they be located?
2:30:57>> In Tweed.
2:31:04And why are they in tweet as opposed to
2:31:06uh um Marie Fron and Jessica's
2:31:10underwear?
2:31:21[clears throat]
2:31:21Do you remember how much of their
2:31:22underwear you took?
2:31:26Um,
2:31:33not very much from Lori.
2:31:35Did they know that you took their
2:31:37underwear? I don't know.
2:31:40You didn't discuss it with them or
2:31:41anything?
2:31:44Um,
2:31:47so where and tweed would their underwear
2:31:49be?
2:31:58Um
2:32:05in the um
2:32:08there's a laundry room area.
2:32:12Okay. Just between the house and the
2:32:13garage,
2:32:15right?
2:32:23So, where in that laundry area would
2:32:25they be kept?
2:32:27>> There's a cupboard uh up top.
2:32:30They're in that duffel bag.
2:32:32>> What's the duffel bag look like? It's a
2:32:34green army duffel bag.
2:32:37>> Are they all in the same duffel bag?
2:32:40Is there anything else in that duffel
2:32:41bag?
2:32:45Just under.
2:32:47Okay.
2:32:50Um,
2:32:57when these when these pictures uh are
2:33:00looked at, um, you talked about being in
2:33:02Marie Fron's underwear on the first
2:33:05night you went in. Did you take
2:33:06photographs of that?
2:33:07>> Yep.
2:33:08>> What about anybody else's underwear?
2:33:11>> Yep.
2:33:13>> Photos.
2:33:14>> Of you in their underwear? M. And where
2:33:17were those photos taken?
2:33:23Um,
2:33:27well, sometimes in
2:33:36in Maddie Fos's case in her house.
2:33:41The others in my house
2:33:45>> in Tweed. Mhm. [clears throat]
2:33:48>> So, is this a matter you would take the
2:33:49underwear, go back and and then at some
2:33:52point put the underwear on and take
2:33:53pictures?
2:33:55>> What about Jessica's underwear?
2:34:02>> Uh, she's
2:34:04only her, right?
2:34:07>> So, you don't have pictures of you and
2:34:08her? No. Okay.
2:34:11>> All right. Um,
2:34:16okay.
2:34:19Well, I guess uh I just have a a couple
2:34:23of questions for you. I mean, I'm sure
2:34:24there's going to be more questions, but
2:34:26I guess what's on my mind right now,
2:34:28Russ, is um what made you decide to to
2:34:31tell me this tonight?
2:34:40mostly um to make my my wife's life
2:34:44easier.
2:34:47Okay.
2:34:50>> Is what you told me tonight the truth?
2:34:53>> Yeah. Okay.
2:35:00>> How do you feel about what you've done?
2:35:02Like what?
2:35:03>> Disappointed.
2:35:05[clears throat]
2:35:08>> Let me ask you this. If um
2:35:12if this didn't come to the point it's at
2:35:14right now,
2:35:16if whatever reason you didn't end up on
2:35:17our on our radar, so to speak, uh do you
2:35:21think it would have happened again?
2:35:30I was hoping not, but I can't answer the
2:35:33question.
2:35:35>> Okay.
2:35:38Um,
2:35:39not too much here, Russ. Just a few
2:35:41details that I wanted to cover off
2:35:45and specifically deal with Marie Fron.
2:35:48Um,
2:35:50in the basement of her house, uh,
2:35:53there's a hole in the uh, drywall.
2:35:57Do you recall how that happened?
2:36:00>> Whereabouts?
2:36:02>> Uh, I don't know specifically, but it's
2:36:04downstairs.
2:36:05I don't remember that.
2:36:07>> Okay.
2:36:08>> Do you remember doing anything with her
2:36:10in the basement? Uh where you may have
2:36:12used some clothing or something to uh to
2:36:15secure her?
2:36:17>> Yeah, I tied her up against one of the
2:36:19uh poles in the basement initially.
2:36:25I went outside and put the screen back
2:36:27on and secured the window.
2:36:31>> Okay. While she was tied to the pole.
2:36:33>> Yep. And what was your thinking behind
2:36:35doing that at that point?
2:36:38>> Just to cover up how I'd come in.
2:36:42>> Okay.
2:36:44>> Um, now by the time she's tied to that
2:36:46pole, is that in the very initial few
2:36:48minutes kind of thing of the
2:36:49confrontation or that was shortly after
2:36:52I subdued her and tied her up? Yes.
2:36:54>> Okay. Does she have the duct tape on her
2:36:56mouth yet?
2:37:02I think probably
2:37:04pictures will show it.
2:37:07>> All right. Now, in the upstairs bathroom
2:37:10by her bedroom, there's uh looks like
2:37:13something's occurred in there. Do you
2:37:15remember that?
2:37:16>> Yep.
2:37:17>> What happened there?
2:37:18>> She had passed out on the bed. I had
2:37:21gone to look out the front window, see
2:37:24if anybody was coming.
2:37:26and uh
2:37:29she got up and closed the bedroom door
2:37:31and raced into the bathroom trying to uh
2:37:34get somebody's attention,
2:37:37but her mouth was taped and her hands
2:37:39were tied. Okay.
2:37:42>> What did you do as a result of that?
2:37:44>> Well, I just got in and
2:37:48subdued her again and got got her back
2:37:50in the bitter
2:37:53thing.
2:37:55regain control over.
2:37:57>> Okay. If I remember correctly, there's a
2:37:59bit there's a bit of blood in there. Do
2:38:00you know where that blood would have how
2:38:02that that would have occurred?
2:38:03>> All the blood was from
2:38:05the initial hits as I was trying to
2:38:08subdue her.
2:38:09>> Okay.
2:38:09>> Her skin breaking with the uh
2:38:12blows to red. Okay. Do you recall blood
2:38:15being in the bathroom?
2:38:17>> No, actually I didn't have a light on
2:38:18there, but
2:38:20it doesn't surprise me. Okay.
2:38:24Um, there's a pair of underwear and some
2:38:26socks on the floor of that bathroom that
2:38:29belong to her. Do you remember how they
2:38:31got there? Do you remember seeing them?
2:38:33>> See that?
2:38:34Okay.
2:38:36>> What do you recall doing to her breasts?
2:38:38It's pretty clear that there was some
2:38:40something happened to her breasts. Do
2:38:42you remember what that might have been?
2:38:45>> No, I I certainly touched her breasts. I
2:38:48didn't do anything to hurt them.
2:38:51>> I remember that.
2:38:52>> No. Okay.
2:38:54All right. Um,
2:38:57well, Russell, when I suffocated her,
2:39:00she was on her
2:39:03her her front, so may have been
2:39:06something there, but
2:39:09>> what do you mean?
2:39:11>> Well, she was lying on the floor in the
2:39:12bedroom as I suffocated her and
2:39:14obviously struggled. May have been in
2:39:16there that something happened, but I
2:39:18didn't do anything specifically to her
2:39:20breasts.
2:39:21>> Okay. So when you suffocator, that's
2:39:23when you have the duct tape over mouth
2:39:24and nose and that's on the floor.
2:39:26>> Yeah.
2:39:27>> And um then what happens after that?
2:39:32>> Well, she died and I um
2:39:37and took the duct tape off her head and
2:39:39put her on the bed and covered her up
2:39:42with duvet.
2:39:45>> Okay. And what was your thinking behind
2:39:46doing that?
2:39:59Um,
2:40:00as you might expect for Russ, uh,
2:40:03certainly, uh, even now, one of the
2:40:05Ottawa investigators mentioned to me
2:40:07that, um, there's a number of incidents
2:40:09that, uh, that have gone unsolved over
2:40:12the years.
2:40:16>> Can I uh, I was going to get into that.
2:40:18Can I go to the washroom quickly? Yeah,
2:40:20I can get somebody to take you to the
2:40:21washroom. Okay.
2:40:22>> After 10 hours of interrogation, Colonel
2:40:25Russell Williams confessed to
2:40:26everything. He led police to Jessica
2:40:29Lloyd's body hidden in the woods just as
2:40:31he described. He admitted to murdering
2:40:34Corporal Marie France Kimo, a military
2:40:37flight attendant who worked under his
2:40:39command. He confessed to two violent
2:40:42sexual assaults and 82 breakins across
2:40:45Ontario. On October 18th, 2010, Russell
2:40:49Williams pleaded guilty to all charges,
2:40:52two counts of first-degree murder, two
2:40:55counts of sexual assault, two counts of
2:40:58forcible confinement, and 82 counts of
2:41:01breaking and entering. He was sentenced
2:41:04to life in prison without the
2:41:05possibility of parole for 25 years. He
2:41:09won't be eligible for parole until 2035.
2:41:13He'll be 72 years old and he'll never
2:41:16wear his uniform again. Russell Williams
2:41:18was stripped of his rank, his medals,
2:41:21and his legacy. His name was erased from
2:41:24every military record. The shining
2:41:27bright star of the Canadian military is
2:41:29now just another inmate.

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