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Coleman Hughes on Colorblindness, Jazz, and Identity | Conversations with Tyler — Transcript

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0:04hello everyone and welcome back to
0:05conversations with Tyler today I'm here
0:08with Coleman Hughes Coleman has a great
0:10new book out the end of race politics
0:13Arguments for a colorblind America but
0:16Coleman is more than just a book author
0:18he is a well-known blogger he has a very
0:21famous podcast conversations with
0:23Coleman he has been a star in rap music
0:26he plays jazz music trombone
0:28professionally in New York City
0:30nightclubs and he's all around a public
0:32intellectual and famous person Coleman
0:36welcome thank you so much and I have to
0:38apologize for stealing the name of your
0:41podcast um for mine but I I figured I
0:45have literation so I I have extra reason
0:48to do it if your name was Tyler it would
0:50be bad but in fact it's totally fine now
0:54before we get to your book I have just
0:55some random questions for you what have
0:58you learned from JJ Johnson
1:02H what's most interesting about JJ
1:04Johnson is that he was an extreme
1:08perfectionist uh what people don't
1:10realize about JJ at least people that
1:14aren't deep kind of conures is that most
1:17of his solos on his records were
1:19prepared and uh to an extent that is not
1:22true of his other contemporaries like
1:24Charlie Parker uh Dizzy Gillespie Etc
1:28most of their solos were truly
1:30improvised like if you go to the
1:31alternate takes on those records it's a
1:33different solo if you go to JJ's
1:35alternate takes it's almost the same
1:38solo and uh I think that rather than be
1:42a bug that was a feature of his success
1:44because if you consider the challenges
1:46required to make the trombone into a
1:49bbop instrument which nobody thought was
1:51possible before JJ Johnson did it um
1:56it's kind of a catch22 because the the
1:58level of perfectionism you would have
2:00had to have in order to be the first
2:01successful bbop trombone player would
2:04also preclude you from being a truly
2:07improvisatory uh musician which is
2:09generally characteristic of jazz
2:11musicians are most of your trombone
2:14solos prepared no but in a way I
2:18benefit um this is why you can't compare
2:21modern players to players of the past I
2:23benefit enormously from having studied
2:26and learned all of many of JJ Johnson's
2:29solos
2:30so there were things he had to invent
2:32that are now second nature to most
2:34trombonist which make it easier to
2:36improvise in that style than it would
2:38have been for him physically what's the
2:40hardest thing about playing the
2:42trombone it's actually not the slide the
2:46slide in my view uh that's what
2:49attracted me to the trombone the fact
2:50that you push and pull rather than
2:52pressing buttons or Valves and that's
2:54what makes it distinct but the the the
2:57slide motion is not actually the the
2:59trickiest thing about it the trickiest
3:01thing about it is the same thing that's
3:03tricky about every other brass
3:04instrument which is the ambore that's
3:06what separates Great trumpet players
3:09from poor trumpet players it's it's like
3:11in in my view the the finger technique
3:13is not nearly the hardest part it's
3:15always the the uh small muscles of the
3:19mouth and coordinating those to play the
3:21instrument effectively and how was it
3:24you ended up playing trombone in Charles
3:26Mingus big band so I was um I
3:30participated in the Charles Mingus high
3:32school jazz festival which they still do
3:33every year it was new at the time they
3:36invite bands from all around to
3:38audition and they identify a handful of
3:42good soloists and let them sit in for
3:44one night with the band and I sat in
3:46with the band and the band leader knew
3:49that I lived close by in New Jersey and
3:51so essentially invited me to start
3:53playing with the band on Monday nights
3:55and I was probably 16 or 17 at this
3:57point so I would take the NJ Transit
3:59into New York City on a Monday night
4:02play two sets with the Mingus band
4:03sitting next to people that had been my
4:06idols and were now kind of my mentors
4:08people like uh Kumba Frank Lacy who who
4:11was a fantastic trombone player played
4:13with art Blakey and D'Angelo and so
4:15forth and then I would go home at
4:17midnight and go to school on Tuesday
4:19morning and why is the music of Charles
4:22Mingus special in jazz because it is to
4:24me but how would you articulate what it
4:26is for you I would wholeheartedly agree
4:28that it's special even within Jazz the
4:31way I would describe it is there are
4:33certain Jazz musicians that seem to have
4:35created their own autonomous Island
4:38within the landscape of jazz whereas
4:42most of the great jazz musicians sort of
4:44resided in the same country certain
4:46people were like off in Taiwan on like a
4:50on their own Island I would put Mingus
4:52in that category I would put someone
4:53like monk in that
4:55category um ornette Coleman people like
4:58that Mingus is music is my favorite of
5:00all of those because it's it sounds like
5:04Duke Ellington if Duke Ellington had had
5:07had had an acid trip and composed things
5:09that were broadly in his idiom but just
5:12everything was changed a bit and so um
5:15that's how I would describe Mingus and
5:17where should a podcast listener start if
5:19they don't know
5:20Mingus I think you should start with
5:22Mingus a um because it's the album that
5:25would most broadly appeal to some to to
5:29someone who didn't know and you know any
5:31Mingus um I would also very much
5:34recommend watching his interviews as his
5:36personality is part of the experience of
5:39listening to him and then my favorite
5:42Mingus is
5:44probably black saint and the cner lady
5:47is is I think a masterpiece and um the
5:50very the Lesser known Mingus piece that
5:52is a beauty and was part of his multi-
5:56uh his several hourong composition
5:58called epit half uh which I think he
6:01never finished but it's a it's a song
6:04called pinky don't come back from the
6:06Moon looking for love man and uh it's a
6:09beautiful 10minute or so just gorgeous
6:12piece and he had a penchant for these uh
6:16giving really long names and funny names
6:19so he has another one for instance
6:21called um uh I think it's called it's a
6:25contrafact of the song all the things
6:26you are and contrafact meaning same
6:29different Melody and he called it all
6:31the things you could be if Sigman
6:33Freud's wife was your mother so he had
6:35these very funny titles uh and um I'm
6:37I'm I'm a lifelong Mingus fan and and
6:39blessed to play in the band if I want to
6:42be Charmed by Puerto Rican music where
6:44should I start oh you should definitely
6:47start with Hector Lavo I would say um
6:51Hector lao's music is uh it's incredible
6:55it's incredible to dance to it's it it
6:58it stands the test of time
7:00a lot of it is thematically dark
7:04actually um many of his most famous
7:08songs uh are I mean so so for instance
7:13um is extremely sad song about how his
7:17mother died and then his father died and
7:19he had a tragic life but you would never
7:21know that because it sounds so damn
7:23happy and it makes you want to dance uh
7:25and it's also probably the best example
7:28of how
7:30trombones can be used because most of
7:32that music was performed with Willie
7:34cologne who's arguably the greatest
7:37Latin trombone player and they would
7:40essentially you know they could sustain
7:42the whole Harmony of the band if they
7:44wanted to without a piano or guitar
7:47simply by having two trombones playing
7:49triple
7:50Forte uh and and that's another thing I
7:53I I really love about that
7:55music is Billy Joel at all any good
8:01that's a good question you know you know
8:03I I I love piano man I think it's um an
8:07incredible song I can't really speak to
8:10that much Billy Joel being great outside
8:11of the few hits but piano man I think is
8:14a correctly rated
8:16song I've been thinking about him a lot
8:19lately because he has immense talent but
8:21I don't like most of
8:23it and that raises interesting questions
8:26but when I hear it on the radio I don't
8:29dislike
8:30I want to dislike it more than I
8:31actually do so which aspect bothers you
8:35is it in what sense does it matter that
8:37he's not talented if you like it most of
8:39the
8:40time it feels dumbed
8:44down uh I grew up in New Jersey as you
8:46did it appeals to a particular culture
8:49that I feel I ought to be rejecting a
8:50bit more than perhaps I do I don't know
8:53if I'm allowed to say this given the
8:55topic of your book but in some ways it's
8:57too white for me
9:00rhythmically it can be flaccid but like
9:03if I hear moving out and you know heart
9:05attack I enjoy that am I wrong so is it
9:09that it was so influential that it's
9:12it's become banal through people yeah I
9:15heard it all the time growing up
9:17probably in a way you how did it strike
9:19you when you when you were growing up
9:21the exact same way oh interesting yeah
9:24yeah so I I mean I was wondering if if
9:26it's just that it was so influential it
9:28influenced everything else and now
9:30sounds Bal in retrospect but it sounded
9:31Bal at the time and I think purposely so
9:35but it's interesting when I listen to
9:36satellite radio sometimes Billy jolis on
9:39as a disc jockey he's an A+ quality
9:42teacher about music how he explains
9:44things and I have great respect for that
9:47yep I don't think there's much
9:49correlation between being able to
9:50explain it well and being able to do it
9:52well is one thing I've noticed of of of
9:55musicians now you were a philosophy
9:58major at Columbia that now a while back
10:00but what is it you liked most about
10:02Continental
10:04philosophy the truth is I didn't
10:06resonate with
10:07much much of any Continental philosophy
10:11uh it it struck me as
10:15um as as not respecting what I value in
10:19writing which is brevity and
10:21Clarity and uh and so I might like to
10:25read someone who really gets n explain
10:28what n was was trying to say but reading
10:30n itself was not a very fun experience
10:33for me and so I gravitated strongly
10:36towards analytic philosophy the
10:38expositors are often worse right you
10:40think oh they're going to clarify n but
10:42you get something longer and more
10:44convoluted please give me back n right
10:48the ones that are hyper obsessed tend to
10:49be very
10:51unclear what would you change in
10:53American high schools if you had a magic
10:57wand that's a good question
11:02um I mean so there is research
11:05suggesting that longer school days are
11:07are a good thing I mean you know Roland
11:10Friar's experiments in Texas where he
11:12randomly selects schools and extends the
11:14school day among other things gets good
11:17results on the other hand there just are
11:21a lot of kids that don't resonate with
11:23the structure and skill set of high
11:27school or public school schooling in
11:29general and
11:32um and their their talents lie elsewhere
11:35I mean I I I know countless musicians
11:38that may have even been diagnosed as
11:40quote unquote ADHD in school but the
11:44reality is they had no trouble focusing
11:46in general and certainly had no TR
11:48trouble focusing on practicing their
11:49instrument for five hours at a time but
11:52had no interest in school uh as it was
11:56structured
11:58um so you
12:00know I'd be curious what what can be
12:03done to make school more tolerable for
12:05those kinds of
12:07kids we'll get back to miscellaneous
12:09questions but now let's get to your book
12:11again the end of race politics Arguments
12:14for a colorblind America uh how would
12:17you give us your bottom line message in
12:19the book I don't usually do this but how
12:22would you explain it yeah I would
12:24basically explain it by saying the idea
12:27of colorblindness by which I mean trying
12:29to treat people without regard to race
12:32and having colorblind uh race neutral
12:35public policy that's become a dirty word
12:37and a dirty Concept in particular on the
12:40left in the past couple decades and
12:42really in the past decade so this book
12:45is an attempt to rescue
12:48colorblindness um from from the jaws of
12:50disdain and argue that it is the best
12:54overall Philosophy by which to view the
12:57the idea of race um that we want to
13:00raise our
13:01children even if it's a watered down
13:04version of MLK we ought to raise our
13:06children on that message um and we ought
13:10to get race out of public policy and
13:12wherever possible wherever plausible use
13:15socioeconomics where we want to um deal
13:17with issues of
13:19disadvantage if I understand you
13:21correctly you're also suggesting in our
13:23private lives we should be
13:26colorblind yes broadly yeah
13:29or we should try to be we should try to
13:32be now this is where I might not agree
13:34with you so I find if I look at media I
13:37look at social media I see a dispute I
13:40think a 100% of the time I agree with
13:42colan pretty much on these race related
13:46matters uh in private lives I'm less
13:49sure so let me ask you a question sure
13:51could jazz music have been created in a
13:53colorblind
13:56America could it have been created in a
13:58color blind America in what sense do you
14:01mean that
14:02question it seems there's a lot of
14:04cultural
14:05creativity I mean one issue is it may
14:07have required some hardship but that's
14:09not my point it requires some sense of a
14:12cultural identity to motivate it that
14:14the people making it want to express
14:16something about their lives their
14:17history their communities and to them
14:20it's not
14:22colorblind interesting so my my
14:25counterargument to that would be in so
14:27far as I understand the early history of
14:29jazz it
14:31was heavily more racially integrated
14:34than American society was at that time
14:37in the sense that the culture of jazz
14:40music as it existed in say New Orleans
14:42and New York City was many many decades
14:47ahead of the curb in in terms of um its
14:50attitudes towards uh how people should
14:52live racially uh interracial friendship
14:55interracial relationship Etc so yeah I'd
14:59argue that ethos of jazz was more
15:02colorblind in my sense than the American
15:05average at the time but maybe there's
15:08some portfolio effect here so yes Benny
15:11Goodman hires Teddy Wilson to play for
15:13him Teddy Wilson was black as I'm sure
15:15you know and that works marvelously well
15:18and it's just good for the world that
15:19Benny Goodman does this but can it still
15:22not be the case that Teddy Wilson is
15:25pulling from something deep in his being
15:27and his soul about his racial experience
15:30is upbringing the people he's known and
15:32that that's where a lot of the
15:34expression in the music comes from and
15:36that is most decidedly not colorblind
15:39even though we would all endorse the
15:40fact that Benny Goodman was willing to
15:42hire Teddy
15:43Wilson yeah and maybe I'd argue it may
15:46not be culture blind though it probably
15:49is colorblind in the sense that black
15:52Americans don't just represent a race
15:55that that's what a you know a black
15:57American would have in common that's
15:59what I would have in common with someone
16:00from Ethiopia is that we're broadly of
16:02the same quote unquote race we are not
16:04at all of the same culture and so to the
16:07extent that there there is something
16:10called African American culture which I
16:12believe that there
16:13is uh which is had many wonderful
16:16products including Jazz and
16:18hipop yeah then I'm I I'm I'm I'm
16:21perfectly willing to concede that that's
16:23a cultural product product in the same
16:25way that say country music is like a a
16:27product of broad
16:29Southern
16:30Culture but then here's my worry a bit
16:33you're going to have people privately
16:35putting out cultural Visions in the
16:38public sphere through Music Television
16:40novels a thousand ways and those will
16:43inevitably be somewhat political once
16:46there are cultural Visions so these
16:48other Visions will be out there and a
16:50lot of them you're going to disagree
16:52with so it might be fine to say it would
16:56be better if we were all much more color
16:59blind but given these other nonc
17:01colorblind Visions are out there do you
17:04not have to in some sense counter them
17:06by not being so colorblind yourself and
17:09say well here's a better way to think
17:11about the black or African-American or
17:14Ethiopian or whatever
17:16identity yeah I think they're I think
17:19that's right I think they're compatible
17:21in the sense that you can sort of push
17:24for the soft version of something and
17:26the harder version of something
17:29if not at literally the same time than
17:31than by
17:32turns um what I've sort of been arguing
17:35for is a kind of firewall between the
17:37cultural versions you're talking about
17:40and the political aspects but I think
17:43you're right that in in practice they
17:46may bleed into each other they might
17:49correlate uh very highly right maybe I
17:53Coleman Hughes have no problem
17:54separating the fact that I grew up with
17:56black and Puerto Rican music and have a
17:59special attachment to it also have a
18:01special attachment to Puerto Rican food
18:02for instance I have no problem
18:04separating that aspect of me from a
18:07demand that the state treat me and my
18:10racial group differently but uh or or a
18:14political program based on race broadly
18:16but it might be the case that for many
18:19people those are just kind of one and
18:21the same or they draw on the same
18:25impulse now I'm Irish American and
18:27sometimes I go to Ireland and other
18:29times I go to Scotland and I enjoy them
18:32both I don't really think intrinsically
18:34one is better or worse than the other
18:37but I would admit that I honestly feel
18:40somewhat better about being in Ireland
18:41for some weird arbitrary reason I think
18:44I'm Irish American this to me is just a
18:47bit more
18:48interesting and it's probably me fooling
18:51myself but some parts of it even feel a
18:54little bit more familiar than Scotland
18:56would and I fully admit that my placebo
18:58or my own self- delusion should I feel
19:01bad about thinking that way no I don't
19:05think you should feel bad about thinking
19:06that way and I think that I know much
19:09more about Puerto Rico than I would if I
19:12weren't one half Puerto Rican I know
19:14much more about it than I know about the
19:16Dominican Republic
19:18say um however I would ask I would ask
19:21you a question I would turn it around I
19:22would ask you if you were to write an MR
19:27post about some issue in Irish or
19:29Scottish politics do you think you would
19:31analyze them differently or do you think
19:34you would put that little feeling to the
19:37side I think I would know more about
19:40Ireland it would be different I don't
19:42think I would consciously be biased but
19:44I don't think I could quite do it
19:46neutrally either and I'm pretty distant
19:48from Ireland like no relatives there
19:50I've only been a few times I'm not like
19:53an Irish American you know sending money
19:55to the IRA and drink drinking in a
19:58stereo typical Irish American Pub
20:00there's not really much in my life that
20:01would you're not drinking period yeah
20:04but this is what worries me a bit so if
20:07I went to say Ireland and Africa and
20:10then when I'm in Ireland I feel a bit
20:13better there because oh I'm in Ireland
20:15that's a place with white people I
20:17definitely would feel bad if I had that
20:21opinion and I don't in fact I actually
20:23if anything I'm to kind of prefer to
20:26embrace that which is in some way
20:29distant from me along those
20:31margins uh but it would be wrong right
20:34if I said oh well I'm in Ireland you
20:36know I'm white that's the white people's
20:38place I can feel a little better about
20:40that than being in
20:41Ethiopia yeah then there again I would
20:43underscore the distinction between race
20:45and culture I don't think anyone should
20:47feel bad about the inevitable fact that
20:50we have more cultural attachments to the
20:53things that we know and the places we're
20:55from and the foods we grew up with and
20:57the music we grew up with that's all
21:00inevitable and I even I I I even don't
21:04uh begrudge someone saying look uh you
21:08know I'm Jewish uh I would frankly
21:10prefer to live in a Jewish Community I
21:12would prefer to marry a Jewish person
21:15and so forth all of those kinds of
21:17feelings I would argue are inevitable
21:21and uh and you shouldn't fight within
21:24yourself however I think there should be
21:28a strong firewall between saying all of
21:30those things and saying you know the
21:32state ought to treat my group special
21:35because of this that or or another
21:38reason and like I said that might be a
21:40too hard a distinction for some people
21:42to draw it's not a hard one for me to
21:43draw and so maybe I falsely assume it's
21:46a hard it's a it's realistic to Advocate
21:49other people draw it but that seems to
21:51me a sensible place to draw the line
21:53given we have to draw it somewhere
21:56between everyone's irrational individ
21:58ual with no attachments whatsoever and
22:01any and all expressions of racial and
22:04group Pride are okay I agree fully when
22:07it comes to the state but in terms of
22:09separating race and culture they seem
22:12quite intertwined to me and a lot of
22:14people's cultures talk about their race
22:17it can be in quite unpleasant ways in in
22:19many cases as we both know so is there
22:22really that firewall
22:25there I would argue so like I would
22:28argue race and culture are fairly
22:29distinct the fact that in America right
22:33now arguably the most bitter kind of
22:38difference is
22:40between two different white cultures
22:43right I think was it David French who
22:45wrote the piece about the great white
22:46culture War something like that a few
22:48few years back where you have sort of
22:52white Americans of of a of a of a blue
22:54culture and white white Americans of a
22:56red culture some who grew up with 50
22:59guns thinking it's normal and some who
23:01literally couldn't tell you the
23:02difference between two OB between a
23:05shotgun and a rifle looking at each
23:08other and feeling really all of the
23:13sociological um kind of kind of feelings
23:16of tribal hatred towards one another but
23:19are totally of of the same race I think
23:22that kind of UND
23:23underscores the difference between race
23:25and culture let me try another
23:28pathetical on you you might
23:31ask well should we be race blind but
23:33should we be autism blind so if I meet a
23:36person who is Autistic or I think
23:38they're autistic I'll make a point of
23:40speaking to that person more directly
23:42you could say I would treat them
23:43differently I think it's efficient I
23:45think it's welcome it leads to better
23:48outcomes but I wouldn't say I'm autism
23:51blind now autism isn't culture it's not
23:55race but it is mostly genetic right it's
23:58a thing you were born with uh should we
24:02be autism blind or ADHD blind or
24:05whatever else
24:06blind no I don't think we should be
24:08autism blind I think in so far as you
24:11know someone has a totally different
24:14communication style you know that they
24:16don't read facial expressions well it
24:18makes sense to take that into account in
24:20in in all of your uh interactions and
24:23Communications with them but I don't
24:25think that and and for instance
24:29I don't argue that we should be gender
24:30blind
24:33because at least not in the same sense
24:35we should be we should try to be race
24:37blind because there really just are
24:40important differences between men and
24:43women that shouldn't be ignored right
24:45you shouldn't treat anyone worse but I
24:48also wouldn't necessarily treat my
24:51brother and my sister and my mother and
24:52my father the same in every possible
24:55conversation or scenario right so it's
24:57not about
24:59a hierarchy of treatment it's simply uh
25:02nonidentical treatment right and I and I
25:05but my my point about race I think is
25:08that race really is uh whatever you
25:12think about its constructed nature it's
25:15much more socially constructed than all
25:17of these other categories right autism
25:20is just it's there's no if we have
25:23autistic people in a thousand years
25:25they're going to have the same symptoms
25:27that they did a thousand years ago
25:30um you know the diff the the the classic
25:34differences between men and women today
25:36are quite similar to to to what they
25:39were 50 years ago and there will
25:41be you know differences between men and
25:44women in a hundred years but race is not
25:47really like that it's
25:49it's what we think of as a racial
25:53difference uh is is heavily influenced
25:56by culture and in that sense they're
25:58intertwined but I think so I think it's
26:00much more
26:01fertile uh ground for Progress to
26:05Advocate that people treat those of
26:08different races without regard to their
26:10race than to treat people with say
26:13different personality conditions or
26:17genders or or so forth things that are
26:19frankly less malleable to begin
26:22with but in the in its most fundamental
26:25terms if you had to present the micro
26:27Foundation for why does race get so much
26:31blindness in your view so culture is
26:33extremely contingent and yet there you
26:36don't want us to be culture blind and
26:38then autism say is mostly genetic and
26:41you don't want us to be autism blind so
26:44the extreme contingent and the extreme
26:46non-contingent you don't want blindness
26:48but there's some point in the Middle
26:50where blindness makes sense or how does
26:52the whole model operate so I guess the
26:55model operates in in the in the
26:56following way if if I meet two people of
26:59a different culture I'm not going to
27:01treat them differently in other words
27:04let's say to to disect out the variables
27:08I've got an Ethiopian and a black
27:09American same race totally different
27:11cultures and they're both applying to
27:14work at my podcast I'm neither going to
27:16consider their race nor their culture in
27:20their um if they're you know they
27:22they're they're editing my podcast say
27:24right I really only care about their
27:26competence there the sense in which you
27:29might not be culture blind is I wouldn't
27:31fault the Ethiopian guy for saying look
27:33I want an Ethiopian wife and I like
27:35inira better than I like uh
27:39barbecue in that sense I allow him his
27:42non-culture
27:43blindness uh and I don't make him feel
27:46guilty in the sense that I don't make
27:48you feel guilty when you feel a a bit
27:50more uh bit a bit of something for for
27:53Ireland but I would I would still insist
27:56on not treating them differently right
27:59not treating them differently where the
28:01different treatment might amount to some
28:02kind of Injustice I wouldn't insist on
28:06being deliberately obtuse about the
28:09differences between people with
28:11different mental competencies like
28:13autism or depression or God forbid
28:16schizophrenia right schizophrenia
28:19blindness is just being uh um obtuse
28:22right it's the problem is that
28:24schizophrenia is actually a perfect
28:26proxy for having a different mind that
28:28that's definitionally that's that's what
28:29it is whereas a person's race is not uh
28:32a very good proxy for having a different
28:36mind uh at all and and it's certainly
28:38not a good proxy the moment you have
28:40more information about them right the
28:42only situations where it might be a good
28:44proxy if you picture a quadrant with
28:47like stakes and information so if you're
28:50in the quadrant quadrant that's high
28:52stakes and low information right like
28:55you know that there's a bomb in Time
28:56Square and you've only got two seconds
28:59and you have to decide between the guy
29:01that looks like a terrorist and looks
29:03like the race of most terrorists you
29:05know okay well I'm not going to fault
29:07you for paying attention to race in that
29:09particular Corner case in most of our
29:12life situations we're in the other three
29:14quadrants of situations that are either
29:17uh low stakes High information low
29:19stakes low information or low stakes low
29:22information or did I get all three I
29:24might have messed that up but you get
29:26the point we're we're meeting friends at
29:28coffee shops we're introducing each
29:30other and so forth in in scenarios where
29:32we can learn about each other and the
29:34moment we have that race Falls away as a
29:36as a very useful
29:37proxy as you probably know a
29:39disproportionate share of American CEOs
29:42are quite tall how do you feel about
29:46lookism yeah lookism is another one
29:49where um I would feel it's not that I
29:51don't think it's an injustice of some
29:54kind um it's that I would feel silly
29:58spending very much time trying
30:01to budge that particular variable
30:04because I don't think it's that budge
30:06not saying it's not movable at all um
30:11but I would argue that for instance in
30:16my view attitudes towards racism have
30:18changed pretty dramatically in the past
30:2150 years in the past hundreds
30:24certainly I don't know that attitudes
30:26towards lookism
30:28have and that leads me to believe that
30:31lookism might be something more like
30:33closer to a constant where as attitudes
30:37towards race are fairly influenceable by
30:42let's say those of us who are in the
30:44marketplace of ideas I don't want to
30:45exaggerate our influence as a whole
30:48profession um but I would feel somewhat
30:51silly trying to budge variables that
30:53might not be very budge I worry
30:56sometimes that blacks in America face
30:58more lookism even from people who would
31:00not typically be considered racist but
31:02when they meet a black person they
31:05really pay more attention to the looks
31:06and I you know Obama once said when he
31:08was president when I'm on TV the one
31:10thing I can't do too much is to get
31:12angry and you look very friendly you are
31:14very friendly I know you how would
31:17things have gone for you if you looked
31:18more Savage I mean do you think blacks
31:20in America face more
31:22lookism yeah I mean I I think probably
31:25yes
31:26um it's it's interesting uh our friend
31:29Noom who was also on this podcast said
31:32the same thing he said if I looked if I
31:36had a look that was more threatening for
31:38lack of a better word that I might have
31:41a different black experience than the
31:42one that I have and that it's not you
31:45know we we often reduce things to race
31:48that aren't all racial right like
31:50whether I can say there's only one time
31:53I've ever been accused of stealing
31:55something from a store that I didn't not
31:58in fact steel which is often talked
32:00about as a ubiquitous experience for
32:02black
32:03men black people in general it's only
32:06happened once I've been living in New
32:08York for 10 years and I buy a lot of
32:10stuff from Deli and I've lived in Harlem
32:12and I've lived in um above Harlem and
32:16Hamilton
32:18Heights and the kinds of neighborhoods
32:20where a black teen might be accused of
32:23this kind of thing or and so forth and
32:26is that partly because I have a certain
32:27look even if I dress shabby I I have
32:30kind of a certain non vaguely
32:31non-threatening look um although for
32:35some reason it's enough to make
32:37employees at Ted feel unsafe but not
32:39Delhi owners in Harlem I think there's
32:42something to that
32:43absolutely do you think being half
32:45Puerto Rican has given you additional or
32:48different insight into racism and if so
32:52what it's a good question uh I think
32:57there may something to the idea that
33:00kids who
33:02are products of interracial unions are
33:06more drawn towards the idea that race
33:10isn't all that important because if you
33:13grow up in a scenario especially if you
33:15grow up with two happy loving parents as
33:17I
33:18did um who are who are clearly of
33:21different races and different cultures
33:23and so forth uh my mother grew up
33:26speaking Spanish and my dad was as as
33:28American as as as you could
33:31get it
33:34becomes it becomes difficult to believe
33:36that there are deep dividing lines
33:37between groups of people because your
33:39immediate context says otherwise the two
33:42people that are most important your
33:44parents have formed the deepest Union
33:46any two people can form and so it belies
33:49the notion it belies the the the people
33:52that would want to tell you that there
33:54are important divisions between the
33:55races so in so far as that's part of my
33:58experience I think it's possibly
33:59influenced me the white conservatives
34:02who are your fans what do you think
34:04they're most likely to get wrong about
34:08race that's a good question that's a
34:10very good question and then I'll ask you
34:13about the Libertarians and whether the
34:14conservatives and Libertarians get the
34:16same things
34:21wrong that's a
34:24stumper but is there some way in which
34:27you feel uncomfortable by their Embrace
34:29of you that they don't quite they
34:32haven't quite earned the opinion in a
34:34way you might feel you have or that
34:36doesn't enter into it no I feel that
34:39sometimes I feel a kind of uh
34:42undeveloped
34:44discomfort and uh inarticulable
34:47discomfort with some of the people that
34:49like
34:50me uh I couldn't exactly say why but yes
34:53it does come from some sense that the
34:55opinion is unearned or that what is a
34:59what is an opinion I've come to with
35:02great emotional weight and frankly
35:05psychological wrestling is an opinion
35:07that they've come to
35:09reflexively
35:11and that that doesn't sit well with me
35:14in in some sense I would
35:18prefer it it it makes
35:20me
35:24um it makes me feel feel better about my
35:27message if I
35:30feel people who wouldn't otherwise come
35:33to the view views that I have are coming
35:36to it not reluctantly but knowing the
35:39counterarguments against it and taking
35:41them seriously taking for instance just
35:44the the the fact and kind of sanctity of
35:50the legacy of racism in Black Culture as
35:52a meme
35:55um taking all of that ser seriously and
35:58nevertheless coming to the opinion that
36:01basically the dominant narrative on race
36:03is importantly wrong sits better for me
36:06than someone that takes it reflexively
36:07and without uh fully appreciating the
36:10counterargument so to the extent that
36:12white conservatives over index on that
36:14way of engaging with me it does make me
36:16uncomfortable
36:18however if I had stopped doing things
36:21that made me uncomfortable I just never
36:22would have I never would have gotten to
36:25where I am right now and uh I think
36:27think that is one of
36:29the the biggest things uh stopping many
36:34black people and people of color in
36:36general from agreeing me agreeing with
36:37me publicly is not that they disagree
36:40with me uh privately it's that
36:45they they don't want to tolerate those
36:48same feelings of discomfort from the
36:49white conservatives who will agree with
36:51them and so I've made the choice that
36:54I'm willing to tolerate that
36:56discomfort uh and I think that's the
36:58right decision how do agism and racism
37:02interact so it's a common racist Trope
37:05to take a young black male and call him
37:07boy
37:09historically I've noticed sometimes when
37:11people talk about you maybe it's me
37:13that's off but they say pretty often
37:14that you're young or very young you're
37:16not actually that young anymore I mean
37:19do you feel people see you as Too Young
37:22in part because of racial issues or is
37:25there some underlying condescension when
37:27people refer to you as young or you just
37:29don't notice or don't think any of
37:30that's
37:32there I don't think that it's a a racial
37:34issue so for example you know I when I
37:38started playing with the Mingus b band
37:40which is on most nights a majority black
37:43band um it certainly was in those days I
37:46would always be introduced as young even
37:48up to the point when I was like
37:4924 and I guess it was a relative thing
37:52because most guys in the band were older
37:54but there is just this General
37:55phenomenon of of of Youth wor ship that
37:59I do dislike about I don't know if it's
38:02American culture or or if this is the
38:04same everywhere I don't really like that
38:06we put 17-year-old activists on TV if
38:08their school was shot up I think it's a
38:11disservice to them um and to that extent
38:15I don't I don't really like being
38:18praised because I'm young because
38:19there's a there's a there's a part of me
38:20that worries that people
38:22are kind of correcting G giving me a
38:25mulligan on certain things because I'm
38:26younger
38:28um and I don't like I don't like even
38:31the intimation of false
38:32praise um so there's that however I
38:36don't think it's a racial issue in fact
38:38I I would probably it's the opposite in
38:41the sense I hear many more people
38:43complaining that black children are
38:45viewed as older than they in fact are
38:46like the case of Tamir rice who is 12 um
38:51and but actually did come across as much
38:53older than 12 so in other words you know
38:57teen teers being seen as adults is
38:59probably the bigger
39:00issue or you game for a round of
39:03overrated versus underrated of course
39:06these are easy ones of course you maybe
39:10no very easy the West Village overrated
39:12or underrated underrated um based on how
39:16much uh how much time I spend there
39:19though a lot of that time is admittedly
39:20spent at the comedy seller it's an
39:22amazing uh culturally vibrant place
39:25there's still great music there great
39:28comedy uh and there is a a really
39:31beautiful
39:33cacophony uh that that goes on
39:36there uh that um yeah I I wouldn't trade
39:39that for anything it's beautiful the
39:41Beasty
39:42Boys overrated to me they're just a
39:45bunch of winers I'm very glad to hear
39:47you say that I think that they have they
39:50even made really a mark in the history
39:52of Hip
39:53Hop I think they came around at a time
39:56when people were looking for white
39:57rappers and Eminem wasn't on the scene
39:59yet that's right however Eminem made a
40:02very important Mark in the sense that I
40:05don't think you could find a single
40:07great rapper from the past 20 years that
40:09doesn't cite Eminem as an influence
40:11especially early Eminem all of the great
40:14black rappers would absolutely give him
40:16his due in the lineage whereas almost no
40:19one would would cite the Beasty Boys
40:21Kareem Abdul Jabar overrated or
40:26underrated uh I would say overrated as a
40:29commentator perhaps it's because he's
40:31often writing about things that were are
40:34within my pet purview and because we
40:37have may
40:38have disagreements that are kind of
40:41small in the big picture but seem large
40:44to me he's much more likely to um to
40:48jump to racism as an explanation for
40:50phenomena in the in the
40:52media um and I do think in the same way
40:57that some people have probably given me
40:59some false praise for being young or
41:01have sort of you know that's added to
41:04their opinion of me I think the fact
41:06that he's Kareem Abdul Jabar and a
41:09former basketball player who happens to
41:12have this other skill might lead people
41:13to rate his output in that other domain
41:16somewhat more
41:17highly gershwin's Rap City in
41:22blue I will go overrated only because I
41:25think it's been played to death on
41:29airplanes and um I think in some way the
41:33worst thing that could have happened to
41:35it is it is for it to become the the uh
41:39anthem of of of whichever Airline it's
41:41the anthem
41:43for Trans
41:46fenan I would say overrated in the sense
41:49that
41:50I I really don't like his idea I
41:54remember almost being offended at the
41:56idea of the colonized mind the idea that
41:59um you know a colonized people that the
42:02colonization sort of infects the mind in
42:05a way that a colonized person must
42:08constantly interrogate whether they are
42:10parting the words of the colonizer or
42:13whether they're actually holding their
42:14beliefs in good faith I remember
42:17rejecting that in a in a very knee-jerk
42:20way because it it is so easily used as a
42:24way of shutting down a person like
42:26myself
42:27um and I knew from introspection that my
42:30own views were not coming from a kind of
42:33like love of of of whiteness or white
42:38supremacy or something you know I in
42:40fact I remember as a
42:41kid I remember there's this meme of the
42:44self-hating black person I recall as a
42:47kid looking in the mirror and being very
42:49happy at what I saw being very happy
42:51that I was black and thinking
42:53that you know had I been white that it
42:56just it would look wrong
42:57you know so I remember having frankly
43:00High racial self-esteem as a kid and I
43:02knew that's not where my opinions were
43:03coming
43:04from what have you learned from gnome
43:07dwan who's also been a guest on
43:10conversations with Tyler I've learned a
43:12lot from Noom
43:14dworman um one thing I've learned is
43:17that if you have
43:21warmth
43:23and humor and charisma
43:27you can get away with being a lot more
43:32quote unquote disagreeable in the
43:34psychological in the psychologist sense
43:38uh than otherwise and I've also learned
43:41that there's such a thing as a
43:43detector and some people have it in
43:44Spades and others
43:47don't and Nom does you're saying Nom has
43:50the best detector that I know
43:52the highest batting average of knee-jerk
43:55responses to emerging story is being
43:57correct say both in personal life and in
44:01the media you know knowing when people
44:03are lying without without strong
44:06evidence what's your favorite
44:09movie um my favorite movie of all time
44:12or my favorite recent movie all well
44:14both all time start with that okay I
44:17will say probably my two favorites I'll
44:20give you two one would be
44:22Interstellar and one would be Little
44:24Miss Sunshine
44:27and why are those two
44:29special uh Interstellar I think
44:32is is Nolan's Masterpiece I'm a big fan
44:36of
44:37Nolan many of his movies are the same
44:39but I think he
44:42perfected his uh calling it a shtick is
44:45not the right thing but he perfected his
44:47thing with Interstellar it was just a
44:49marvelous movie in its marriage of uh
44:54emotionality and and uh the humanity of
44:57Matthew mcc's character and the kind of
44:59abstract playing with time um thing that
45:04Nolan likes to do so for example his his
45:06early movie momento I think kind of over
45:08indexes on the fun of the playing with
45:12time without enough real raw human
45:15emotion and I think Interstellar strikes
45:17the perfect balance Little Miss Sunshine
45:20I would say is a perfect film in my view
45:24um it's it's hard to say why but it
45:27makes me cry almost every time I watch
45:29it it's a a story of a lot of kind of
45:33shitty people I guess that's that's one
45:35thing that's interesting about it
45:37basically everyone except for the young
45:39girl in the movie is kind of a shitty
45:41person uh the mom is constantly angry
45:44for no reason the husband's like a a
45:46fraud and a bit of a car salesman and a
45:49fake success the son is an uh
45:53who only cares about
45:54himself the uh Steve Carell's character
45:57is modeling and depressed they all have
45:59character traits that you should 100%
46:02avoid but by the end of the movie they
46:03have to come together around this thing
46:05that it should be totally meaningless
46:07and then it erupts in like a totally
46:09inappropriate kind of dance at the end
46:11it's just a perfect film I have a few
46:13questions about politics why are more
46:16blacks voting Republican these days and
46:18is that mainly a trump thing or a more
46:20permanent
46:22shift well it's this is a very tricky
46:26issue I'm not actually sure what the
46:28trend is so one thing is that it
46:31predates 2020 Trump got more of the
46:34black vote in 2020 than he did in
46:362016 uh so something was going on in the
46:39first term that started the trend it
46:40could have just been the economy was
46:43great um it could have also been a trump
46:45effect in
46:47that uh people on the left talk about
46:50Trump's racism as one big phenomenon but
46:53really his problem was always with
46:54immigrants and uh his denigrating
46:57comments at least the ones that are
46:59confirmed and on the record almost all
47:02of them were directed at immigrants not
47:04black
47:05Americans and black Americans are
47:07roughly as broadly as anti-immigration
47:11as as white
47:12Americans and so the apparent Paradox is
47:16that you know Trump is this quote
47:18unquote racist but black people seem to
47:20be going towards him in greater and
47:21greater numbers well his racism to the
47:24extent You' agree it's racism has always
47:25been directed at Immigrant not at black
47:27people uh by and large he passed lots of
47:30policies in his first term that on their
47:33face seem very sort of pro black right
47:36the first step Act was very Progressive
47:38Criminal Justice Reform making funding
47:42for historically black colleges
47:44automatic these are things that had
47:46Obama done them he'd have been lampooned
47:48by the right as playing identity
47:50politics and in a way that's why Trump
47:52was able to do them and and Obama
47:54wasn't so there's all of that and then
47:57there's just the fact that Biden is a is
47:59a uniquely especially weak
48:02candidate um there's and then there's
48:05this theory of course that the
48:08indictments um have led to a kind of
48:11rallying around Trump from within the
48:13black community because he seems to be
48:15unfairly persecuted and being unfairly
48:19persecuted by the criminal justice
48:20system may be something that resonates
48:23with black people I don't actually know
48:24that that's true but you put it all
48:27together and you you can see how such a
48:29trend might ensue do you think there are
48:33any common patterns of political views
48:36amongst black Jazz musicians obviously a
48:38lot of diversity but on average what do
48:40You
48:43observe um on average black Jazz
48:46musicians that I know
48:50are frankly probably like more in the
48:54conservative Democrat domain than many
48:56people would
48:58assume so for you know that this is not
49:02always widely talked about but black
49:04Americans in general are the most
49:05conservative wing of the democratic base
49:09in the sense that almost all black
49:11people vote Democrat uh but there's
49:14quite a high degree of kind of social
49:16conservatism um conservative viewpoints
49:18on things like immigra immigration and
49:20so forth and if you're white and you
49:22have those views you go to the
49:23Republican party if you're black and you
49:25have those views you probably don't go
49:27to the Republican party you probably
49:28just vote Democrat with a basically a
49:31conservative ideology and that's like a
49:33third of black
49:34Americans I would say that um there's a
49:38lot of black m Jazz musicians that fall
49:40into that category quiet as it's
49:43kept in black Hip Hop there seems to be
49:46a lot of gender conflict and gender
49:48divides is that reflecting something
49:50real or it's just an aesthetic in the
49:52art or what do you me what do you mean
49:55by that
49:57men talking about women in a way that
50:00many women would find very objectionable
50:02I think it's higher in black Hip Hop and
50:05white hip hop but feel free to
50:06contradict me oh I think yeah I would
50:09agree it's hire in black Hip Hop I I I
50:12was always amused when I was in college
50:14that uh you know there was a a very
50:18intense variety of feminism around but
50:21some of those same women would go to
50:24like say a Trippy Red concert or an XXX
50:27tentasion concert and here like some of
50:30the most brutally misogynous lyrics that
50:33have ever
50:34been written in any song without any
50:37contradiction and there was this sense I
50:39guess this unspoken sense that if you're
50:41a black man it's okay to say those
50:43things um or that it's not really meant
50:46or that who cares whereas if a white
50:49artist had said the same thing it would
50:51be you know it would there would be a
50:53bevy of Articles the next day um
50:58yeah I I'm not exactly sure what is
50:59behind that Trend but I have to think
51:02that the success of someone like Drake
51:04is partly because he bucks that Trend
51:07like women love Drake and Drake is the
51:10most popular rapper to ever
51:13exist and I think one thing that makes
51:15him popular is the very fact that he was
51:19squarely within the tradition and school
51:22being a disciple of Lil Wayne the school
51:26that said the worst possible things the
51:28most dismissive dismissive misogynist
51:30possible things and he was accepted and
51:33loved that school but the route he went
51:36was to say things to make music for
51:38women to say things that were sweet to
51:40women um not to say that that's all he
51:43says but he really bucked a trend and in
51:46that sense was vulnerable to the
51:47critique that he was kind of soft and
51:49and and
51:50feminine and uh which is the greatest
51:54possible sin you would think in the rap
51:55world but actually led to the greatest
51:57possible success in the 19th century it
52:00seems that Beethoven and also Queen
52:02Victoria were especially popular with a
52:04lot of black communities in the United
52:06States should we think that strange or
52:08you find that intuitive well I I've
52:11heard it said among
52:13the kind of conspiracies in the hotep
52:16world that Beethoven quote is black
52:18that's something that some people
52:20believe that's not I'm not putting my
52:21name to that um yeah I have no I have no
52:25nothing else to say about that that's
52:26interesting though here's a reader
52:28question and I quote for other men who
52:31share your political views what's your
52:33advice on dating women it's hard to find
52:35ones who are not woke and not socially
52:37ignorant crazy conspiracy theorists at
52:40the same
52:43time my advice would be do not talk
52:48about politics on the first
52:50date in fact I would say don't raise it
52:53at all it will inevitably come up but
52:56delay the time that it comes up as long
52:59as possible you're not there to discuss
53:01politics you're there to meet a woman
53:02that might potentially be a life partner
53:05right so in so far as you go on a first
53:09date and a second date and you begin to
53:11like each other's nonpolitical
53:13attributes once politics comes up and
53:16there are differences between you two
53:19you may be surprised in her ability to
53:23tolerate those political differences
53:25once she's realized that she likes a lot
53:28of your non-political attributes and in
53:30fact she may surprise herself in her
53:32ability to tolerate different opinions
53:34and you may surprise
53:36yourself let me now turn to the Coleman
53:38Hughes production
53:40function uh I hope you don't feel this
53:42is unmerited praise but what makes you
53:45so good at so many
53:47things what's your simplest theory of
53:50that um I guess I've I've always had a
53:54monomaniacal focus on the things I do
53:56like so I'm I'm bad at a lot of things
53:59that I just never do but you think
54:02you're good at learning curves for the
54:04things you
54:06do yes however it's it's not really
54:09that's a that's a false way to frame it
54:11the way to frame it is that I've
54:13invested heavily in the things where my
54:16learning curve was naturally the best so
54:19for instance I I tried to switch to
54:21trumpet when I was 17 but I was no good
54:24at it um
54:28when I started playing trombone I got
54:30good fairly quickly and so I invested
54:32and tripled down in the areas where I
54:34was learning fastest I used to be very
54:36into languages I was good not
54:39great I ditched it completely when I was
54:4212 so I guess I've tripled down on the
54:45areas where I have the highest natural
54:47genetic Advantage as an individual and
54:50this extreme willingness to specialize
54:52where do you think it comes from you
54:53were born with it you developed it your
54:55parents taught you
54:57no born with it 100% I mean I I've I've
54:59always had
55:01um just intense natural desire to focus
55:04on whatever I want to get good at to the
55:08exclusion of almost everything else do
55:11you think your jazz education and
55:13background has helped you when you have
55:15to improvise when you're podcasting
55:17giving a public talk or otherwise in the
55:19public
55:20Arena not at all hasn't helped me in the
55:23speaking
55:24domain one bit what it did do I think is
55:28that growing up so deeply in the Jazz
55:31World which is very diverse multi-racial
55:37multi-national um advertised the
55:40possibility of true deep interracial
55:43friendship and interracial you know
55:46working with people of different
55:48cultures and not seeing anything weird
55:49about that uh towards a common goal and
55:52and towards a common passion and I think
55:54not everyone has that
55:56what is your most unusual successful
55:59work
56:01habit most unusual successful work
56:06habit um I don't know if I have any
56:09unusual successful work work
56:11habits you they're they're successful
56:13but they're not unusual or they're
56:14unusual but they're not
56:17successful I mean I I guess I like I
56:22said I can be very monom maniacally
56:24focused on things so
56:27it's possible for for instance for me to
56:29go to to accidentally skip meals because
56:32I'm working and I don't get hungry and
56:36um it's it's it used to be very hard for
56:39me to stop or get interrupted I've
56:41gotten a little bit better at that and
56:43become a more balanced person but I
56:45would say yeah like working for long
56:47stretches of time with no break at all
56:50as opposed to what might be more common
56:53advice which is you know every hour take
56:54a 20- minute break
56:56what do you think you optimize
56:59for when I work no in life oh I'd like
57:03to think that I optimize
57:06for for happiness broadly construed not
57:09just pleasure or Joy
57:11but a balanced amount of that mixed with
57:15meaning um I'm definitely of the school
57:19that though I work a lot I don't think
57:20that work is life I would like to have a
57:24family and and do all of that and so I
57:25try to optimized for being a
57:28balanced um and happy human being and I
57:31think that's a good thing because to get
57:33to into the world I'm in with politics
57:36and debate and so forth can be um taxing
57:40and toxic without
57:43balance what do you think is the
57:44fundamental reason why that world can be
57:47so
57:51toxic I guess where where other things
57:54in life value
57:56or
57:58incentivize kind of relaxed
58:00open-minded and loving attitude things
58:04such as
58:06music what the incentives in the domain
58:10of public conversation about politics
58:14are towards nastiness in a way towards
58:18dissatisfaction you're supposed to point
58:20out the thing you're pissed
58:22about um
58:24whereas in in other domains in
58:27life you know such as at church or or
58:31with your family you are supposed to
58:33think about the thing you are grateful
58:34for so it's a kind of precise turning on
58:38its head of the wise lessons about how
58:41you should spend your time and attention
58:42for your own happiness inverted to to to
58:46maximize the kind kind of the toxic
58:48things could you imagine a world where
58:50you just say goodbye to politics do
58:54something else and you're simply happier
58:58I think the truth is if I wanted to do
59:00that I would have done it and vice versa
59:03if I wanted to not do music at all and
59:06just go fully into it I think I would
59:08have done that too I think the truth is
59:10when I was a full-time musician gigging
59:12trombone every night I had an itch to
59:14scratch that was not getting scratched
59:16like for instance when I was at juliard
59:18I would go to the music library and try
59:20to pull out books about
59:23philosophy and you know when I was at
59:25Columbia I was always itching to get off
59:27campus and go play some music so they're
59:29just two sides of me that both need to
59:30be fed before the final question let me
59:34just repeat Coleman Hughes the end of
59:36race politics Arguments for a colorblind
59:39America which I enjoyed very much very
59:42last question Coleman what will you do
59:45next uh what will I do next well I'm
59:49going to keep doing my podcast I'll
59:50probably write another book and uh I
59:54will continue to play music perhaps take
59:56up a new instrument and uh continue
59:59optimizing for happiness Colman Hughes
1:00:02thank you very much thank you Tyler

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