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Coleen Rowley Testifies Before The Senate - 9/11 Was 100% Known of in Advanced, Preventable — Transcript

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  1. 0:02take her I'm just gonna need a little
  2. 0:06bit of cooperation so I can see I do
  3. 0:18want to welcome special agent calling
  4. 0:21them Rolly of the FBI
  5. 0:23she's been an FBI agent for 21 years
  6. 0:27she's currently the chief division
  7. 0:29counsel for the Minneapolis field office
  8. 0:31of the FBI she came to the attention of
  9. 0:36this committee when she wrote a letter
  10. 0:37to director Muller that was given to
  11. 0:40members of Congress her letter refers to
  12. 0:43a number of issues this committee has
  13. 0:45heard from other FBI agents in the past
  14. 0:48and started a hatch and I felt that the
  15. 0:54nature of the hearing we're having today
  16. 0:55it would be good as she is she testified
  17. 1:09mr. chairman could I say something oh of
  18. 1:14course
  19. 1:15yeah well I I thank you mr. chairman
  20. 1:17because Special Agent Raleigh is a
  21. 1:21native in my home state of Iowa and
  22. 1:23she's also a native of my wife's
  23. 1:25hometown of New Hampton Iowa but more
  24. 1:28importantly agent Raleigh is a patriotic
  25. 1:31American who had the courage to put
  26. 1:34truth first and raise critical but
  27. 1:37important questions about how the FBI
  28. 1:39handled a terrorist case before the
  29. 1:42attacks and about the FBI's cultural
  30. 1:45problems agent Raleigh your testimony
  31. 1:48today is a great service to this
  32. 1:51committee the entire Congress the FBI
  33. 1:53and the American people and I thank you
  34. 1:55for coming we should be honored to hear
  35. 1:58your testimony today people like you who
  36. 2:01come forth to as as I put it to commit
  37. 2:06the truth of a very terrible sin among
  38. 2:09some federal employees
  39. 2:11but you you come forth with important
  40. 2:13information about the FBI there's been
  41. 2:19heroes like Fred Whitehurst before you
  42. 2:22who exposed the FBI crime lab scandal we
  43. 2:26had four agents last summer who revealed
  44. 2:28disparities in discipline and a pattern
  45. 2:30of retaliation against those who
  46. 2:32investigated misconduct inside the FBI
  47. 2:35agent Raleigh has thrown the spotlight
  48. 2:38on specific and general problems
  49. 2:40happening at the FBI before the
  50. 2:42terrorist attacks and she has important
  51. 2:45insights with her perspective from the
  52. 2:47field about what the FBI can do to
  53. 2:50change the FBI must improve so it can
  54. 2:53prevent future terrorist attacks and her
  55. 2:56testimony I believe is very important to
  56. 2:58help this happen miss Raleigh I believe
  57. 3:00is a dedicated public servant who tells
  58. 3:03it like it is she wanted to be an FBI
  59. 3:05agent since she was five years old and
  60. 3:08she had a distinguished has had a
  61. 3:11distinguished 20-year career at the FBI
  62. 3:14she worked in variety of of offices
  63. 3:18including New York where she
  64. 3:19investigated mafia after learning
  65. 3:22Italian and worked with people like Rudy
  66. 3:24Giuliani Louis Freeh and Michael
  67. 3:27Chertoff she worked in the minneapolis
  68. 3:30division now since 1990 and a number of
  69. 3:32areas including as the ethics offer
  70. 3:35officer agent raleigh i thank you again
  71. 3:37for agreeing to testify today so that we
  72. 3:41can hear your constructive criticism of
  73. 3:43the FBI to help it reform and to help it
  74. 3:45improve the senior senator from your
  75. 3:52state and under Grassley who is from
  76. 3:57your state of birth have said very good
  77. 4:01things about you and they both have gone
  78. 4:03out of their way to talk to members of
  79. 4:05the committee with all that now we'd
  80. 4:08like to hear from you and I should
  81. 4:10mention there's a roll call vote has
  82. 4:13started why don't you begin your
  83. 4:16statement if we have to stop at some
  84. 4:19point I will it won't be because of
  85. 4:20something your citizens only because we
  86. 4:22have to vote in person
  87. 4:23go ahead well the first thing I want to
  88. 4:26do is thank you for the opportunity to
  89. 4:29appear today I never really anticipated
  90. 4:32this kind of impact when I wrote this
  91. 4:35letter to director Miller to over two
  92. 4:38weeks ago I don't know if you know I
  93. 4:41think they've been saying I anguished
  94. 4:42over this a week
  95. 4:43it wasn't even quite a week that I it
  96. 4:46was more like a three-day period and it
  97. 4:48was a fairly sleepless three-day period
  98. 4:50when I began to initially just jot down
  99. 4:53my thoughts because they knew I had to
  100. 4:55appear before the staffers of the Joint
  101. 4:57Intelligence Committee and I didn't want
  102. 4:59to forget anything and also you'll
  103. 5:01probably find out I'm a little better on
  104. 5:03paper than I am verbally so I was kind
  105. 5:05of afraid of that that was one of the
  106. 5:08reasons I started to write it down I
  107. 5:09also had another big impetus that that
  108. 5:13was kind of behind this all and one of
  109. 5:15the things was I saw the new direction
  110. 5:19of the FBI perhaps it was kind of hard
  111. 5:21to discern when it was first announced
  112. 5:23but I thought I saw some impetus towards
  113. 5:26a little more additional bureaucracy and
  114. 5:31micromanaging from headquarters and I
  115. 5:33wanted to point out to director Muller
  116. 5:36that that seemed to fly in the face of
  117. 5:38what we should have learned from
  118. 5:40September 11th and the two things were
  119. 5:43the impetus for the letter I of course
  120. 5:48you know I have many years of experience
  121. 5:49in the FBI I really do care really about
  122. 5:53the FBI I've invested you know almost
  123. 5:55half my life in it and I do care also
  124. 5:58about our protection now I've got four
  125. 6:00children all my lot of my friends have
  126. 6:03children and I really think we ought to
  127. 6:06be doing our best to try to prevent any
  128. 6:08future acts of terrorism I I did in the
  129. 6:15last couple of weeks receive hundreds I
  130. 6:18was counting him for a while but I lost
  131. 6:20track but I received hundreds of emails
  132. 6:22and telephone calls from agents mostly
  133. 6:25agents some supervisors some prosecutors
  134. 6:28some retired FBI leaders and I'm not
  135. 6:32going to presume to speak for all of
  136. 6:34those people but when I looked at
  137. 6:36and I've read most of them there's a few
  138. 6:38I probably haven't gotten a chance to
  139. 6:39look at that have come in since I left
  140. 6:41but of the ones I I looked at I did see
  141. 6:44a real common theme emerging it seems
  142. 6:47like they're kind of struck a chord with
  143. 6:49a lot of people about this idea about
  144. 6:50the borough per see a lot of other
  145. 6:53agents told me similar stories and about
  146. 6:56cases that had you know maybe I'm
  147. 6:59justifiably not gotten anywhere and I
  148. 7:02have a you know I have a whole stack of
  149. 7:03those I think there is really the main
  150. 7:08thing being a real strong consensus that
  151. 7:10we need to streamline the FBI's
  152. 7:12bureaucracy in order to more effectively
  153. 7:15combat terrorism we need that agility
  154. 7:18that director Muller was speaking of
  155. 7:20this morning that agility and ability to
  156. 7:22quickly react and I really see that as
  157. 7:25if you get too top-heavy with too many
  158. 7:28layers he also mentioned that problem
  159. 7:31that you are going to be stymied I was
  160. 7:34encouraged by director Muller's
  161. 7:36testimony this morning because I think
  162. 7:38many of his ideas do seem to go in the
  163. 7:41right direction and actually are quite
  164. 7:43consistent with the various items I had
  165. 7:46in my letter to him he really has an
  166. 7:50extremely difficult job and that's an
  167. 7:52understatement
  168. 7:53when I talk about trying to trim the
  169. 7:56bureaucracy a little bit I don't know
  170. 7:58how you can underestimate that been
  171. 8:00tried before and failed and he just has
  172. 8:03a tremendously difficult job which I can
  173. 8:05appreciate I want everyone to know that
  174. 8:08no one today previewed in the FBI I of
  175. 8:11course they gave me approval to be here
  176. 8:13but no one was no one read the statement
  177. 8:16I did I did this one court quite quickly
  178. 8:19because I didn't know I was coming until
  179. 8:20recently and in this statement which I'm
  180. 8:23not going to read because you can read
  181. 8:25it when you want to I have some ideas in
  182. 8:28here some of these ideas again come from
  183. 8:31other agents some of whom are more
  184. 8:33experienced in intelligence than I am
  185. 8:35and then some of them are my own ideas I
  186. 8:38am the legal counsel so some of the
  187. 8:40legal issues are things that I've seen
  188. 8:42as an issue that have arisen in the past
  189. 8:44few years and you can read that at your
  190. 8:47leisure and if someone wants to ask me a
  191. 8:49specific
  192. 8:50question about any of those that's fine
  193. 8:54they're part of I guess what I can maybe
  194. 8:58go on beyond what director Muller I
  195. 9:00guess what I'm gonna try to do is the
  196. 9:03FBI made mistakes prior to September
  197. 9:0611th I made a little mistake if you look
  198. 9:09at my letter I made a mistake on the
  199. 9:11first page I got the date wrong it was
  200. 9:13August 16th I mean it I proof read it
  201. 9:16once and I missed it we all make
  202. 9:18mistakes and I think that there are
  203. 9:21other levels of our criminal justice
  204. 9:23system there are other federal agencies
  205. 9:25I'm not going to talk about but they're
  206. 9:26also the the prosecutors when you've
  207. 9:29tried to go criminal there's entities in
  208. 9:32the Department of Justice and so does
  209. 9:33some extent I've kind of brought and
  210. 9:35some of what I have written in my
  211. 9:37statement to include those other
  212. 9:39criminal justice entities that you know
  213. 9:42the FBI is it was real important but we
  214. 9:44certainly there's certainly other
  215. 9:46entities that are very important here to
  216. 9:49I was also encouraged I didn't I don't
  217. 9:54know if anyone asked a question about it
  218. 9:56today but when I read director Muller
  219. 9:58statement he points to integrity I think
  220. 10:01it's the last page also and he does
  221. 10:04point to that as an issue and I'm very
  222. 10:07encouraged by that because of course if
  223. 10:11you look at the end of my statement I
  224. 10:12think integrity is extremely important
  225. 10:15some of the people this morning did ask
  226. 10:18questions about how are we going to
  227. 10:20effectively combat terrorism we're going
  228. 10:23to be in a proactive environment which
  229. 10:26definitely has the potential of maybe
  230. 10:29interfering with people's civil
  231. 10:31liberties and how are we going to still
  232. 10:34protect those civil liberties and I
  233. 10:36honestly think integrity really plays
  234. 10:39into this whole item a lot of of when
  235. 10:43you're asking for some new law or some
  236. 10:45new authority it's perhaps not only what
  237. 10:48the law allows you to do but it's how
  238. 10:51it's going to be done and then it really
  239. 10:54boils down to an issue of trust with the
  240. 10:56agency or the entity that you're giving
  241. 10:58this particular power to and there are
  242. 11:01this there there are potentials for
  243. 11:03abuse if you
  244. 11:04over that line and I think as an agency
  245. 11:07we have to be so so completely truthful
  246. 11:11and honest that people are able to trust
  247. 11:15the FBI that we will not cross those
  248. 11:17lines and commit or commit any kind of
  249. 11:21civil rights violation or collect too
  250. 11:24much information etc that basically is
  251. 11:30all I want to say and then if anyone has
  252. 11:32a question from my statement what I'm
  253. 11:37going to do now we have about four
  254. 11:39minutes left in this boat I'm going to
  255. 11:41suggest everybody going vote will stand
  256. 11:43in recess for a minute or the amount of
  257. 11:46time it takes come back and that way
  258. 11:47we'll be uninterrupted thank you
  259. 12:13[Music]
  260. 12:33a fair break again
  261. 12:42must be hot weather nobody once go
  262. 12:44outside agent Rawley you may be
  263. 12:50interested in knowing and I haven't even
  264. 12:52had a chance to share this with Senator
  265. 12:57Grassley a copy of this is gone just her
  266. 12:59to hatch Dan Bryan to the private of
  267. 13:06Justice has sent me a letter following a
  268. 13:12request I made assuring both me and
  269. 13:16Senator hatch there will not be any
  270. 13:18retaliation against you a name form for
  271. 13:22the letter you sent the FBI director of
  272. 13:27course that would also extend to the
  273. 13:31testimony here I will put this letter to
  274. 13:33sort of had to myself in the in the
  275. 13:36record and Senator Grassley and I have
  276. 13:43both notified the Attorney General and
  277. 13:45the director that we would be following
  278. 13:47this matter carefully anyway let me ask
  279. 13:51this question of you
  280. 14:01I asked this question basically to
  281. 14:04director Muller this boys I want to ask
  282. 14:06you as well to your knowledge the agents
  283. 14:11in Minneapolis or headquarters for that
  284. 14:14matter ever try to do a routine search
  285. 14:18for reports on aviation schools or pilot
  286. 14:22training on the automated case system
  287. 14:24I'm not talking about putting in
  288. 14:26somebody's name but for search words
  289. 14:29like aviation schools are or pilot
  290. 14:34training anybody did that well I know a
  291. 14:42little bit about our our ACS system and
  292. 14:47the records we have and as well as the
  293. 14:49search methods we have because I also do
  294. 14:51our Freedom of Information requests and
  295. 14:54of course there are strict rules in
  296. 14:56place about how we search and when we
  297. 14:58people write to us you know if we find
  298. 15:00their name our main system of Records
  299. 15:03our central record system is indexed
  300. 15:06according to the name of the subject
  301. 15:08usually so for instance in a case where
  302. 15:11a particular suspect was named the
  303. 15:14normal method of searching would be to
  304. 15:16search that name only we also have we do
  305. 15:21have the ability to search some text for
  306. 15:24a word but unlike for instance if you
  307. 15:27are doing LexisNexis research you can
  308. 15:29put in the Koala and or and there's all
  309. 15:32different ways that you can search our
  310. 15:34FBI search is probably the most
  311. 15:37fundamental rudimentary thing you can
  312. 15:40just put in a word so for instance if
  313. 15:43you put in airline to do a text
  314. 15:44retrieval you would get up such a volume
  315. 15:47of Records that it would be impossible
  316. 15:49to review it's almost impossible to do
  317. 15:52just a one word text now you can put in
  318. 15:55aviation schools well what you can't do
  319. 15:58for instance in LexisNexis when you're
  320. 16:00searching for things you can put those
  321. 16:01qualifiers in that narrow it down and we
  322. 16:04can't we have no way of doing that we
  323. 16:06can put a word in you could put an
  324. 16:08aviation I think we could you can put in
  325. 16:10aviation schools so you might
  326. 16:14you would just beginning foul you know
  327. 16:15records that you couldn't possibly
  328. 16:16review now what the normal method is we
  329. 16:19do search those names and that that's
  330. 16:22because the subjects names are indexed
  331. 16:24so for freedom of information that's
  332. 16:26what I do and you do I think he
  333. 16:28mentioned that you have to have the
  334. 16:29correct spelling that's that's right I
  335. 16:31mean if you're one letter off you may
  336. 16:32not turn up a record this doesn't do you
  337. 16:34much good if you're looking for somebody
  338. 16:37for example use nitroglycerin and types
  339. 16:39of bombings and is going around with an
  340. 16:41alias which changes bombing to bombing
  341. 16:45what about the director said in his
  342. 16:49testimony that your your office couldn't
  343. 16:54have brought up the Phoenix electronic
  344. 16:57communication on the computers and use
  345. 16:59it in connection with the Misawa case
  346. 17:02but the headquarters could have done
  347. 17:05that is that your understanding I don't
  348. 17:08know specifically about that ec but I do
  349. 17:11know that prior to September 11th a
  350. 17:13number of classified documents and I
  351. 17:16probably almost all classified documents
  352. 17:19were blocked so that only certain people
  353. 17:21on a need-to-know basis would would be
  354. 17:25able to if you went into the computer
  355. 17:27for instance and you didn't have that
  356. 17:28access you aren't going to have you're
  357. 17:30not gonna be able to see those things it
  358. 17:32was also in public corruption cases
  359. 17:33other types of cases that we had this
  360. 17:35blocking and it served a good purpose in
  361. 17:38a way because you know it really keeps
  362. 17:40the people maybe from abusing it but if
  363. 17:44you have citizens pushing a cleared
  364. 17:46person the head of your office has a
  365. 17:48Phoenix office others they want to do a
  366. 17:51computer search on the FBI is ACS
  367. 17:54computer network it's still difficult
  368. 17:56for them to do is that correct that's
  369. 18:00true I don't know exactly how this
  370. 18:02blocking you know what people in each
  371. 18:04office were unblocked in which weren't
  372. 18:06typically it was the people who had a
  373. 18:08need to work on that case only
  374. 18:10unfortunately some of the people may
  375. 18:14know something about it I'm not gonna be
  376. 18:16able to go much further
  377. 18:18you wrote that a supervisor at FBI
  378. 18:21headquarters made changes to the
  379. 18:24Minneapolis agents affidavit I'm talking
  380. 18:26about the fysop process
  381. 18:27now you wrote that they made changes to
  382. 18:30the agents affidavit they quote to use
  383. 18:34your words set it up for failure now the
  384. 18:37New York Times is also reported that
  385. 18:38another headquarters agent was basically
  386. 18:41banned from the courts from the FISA
  387. 18:43courts by the judge based on his past
  388. 18:47affidavits I know that the response some
  389. 18:52of these problems FBI's Institute's are
  390. 18:54so-called
  391. 18:55woods procedures and we put that in the
  392. 18:57records been Declassified put in the
  393. 18:59record this morning do you think that
  394. 19:03some of these problems where the place
  395. 19:05the court made headquarters more
  396. 19:06cautious and risk-averse and process in
  397. 19:10the price applications to the court I've
  398. 19:13never actually served at headquarters so
  399. 19:16I'm I guess I would only be speaking
  400. 19:19from hearsay and as well as maybe the
  401. 19:22opinions of some of the people that have
  402. 19:23called me and email me I think that when
  403. 19:28incidents occur where people in the FBI
  404. 19:31are disciplined or even even
  405. 19:35investigated possibly I think there are
  406. 19:37some consequences to that and it does in
  407. 19:39the future make them much more careful
  408. 19:41in the instances that I'm aware of in
  409. 19:43our office where that's happened we have
  410. 19:45typically in order not to repeat the
  411. 19:48problem we've instituted some kind of
  412. 19:50procedure that makes it more difficult
  413. 19:52so I think that in a way you know from
  414. 19:56what I know of it and again I've never
  415. 19:57served in headquarters that I would
  416. 19:59probably agree
  417. 20:00he also wrote that you and the agents in
  418. 20:03Minneapolis were frustrated with the
  419. 20:05headquarters agent that was assigned to
  420. 20:06the Masoli case and it actually hindered
  421. 20:10your investigation did you or any other
  422. 20:13supervisor agent and a Minneapolis
  423. 20:15called agent your concern would call his
  424. 20:19supervisor or others in Washington to
  425. 20:22complain about this before September
  426. 20:2411th I'm of course a little bit
  427. 20:29restricted in what I can talk today
  428. 20:30about the events of pre September 11th I
  429. 20:33had put that in my statement I failed to
  430. 20:36mention it earlier when I comment I'm
  431. 20:38gonna try to comment in a general way
  432. 20:40avoid the specifics prior to the events
  433. 20:43prior and not get into true real facts
  434. 20:45when I wrote the letter to director
  435. 20:48Muller I think some of the news accounts
  436. 20:50may be misunderstood I really was
  437. 20:54speaking more from a third party
  438. 20:57perspective and talking about what I saw
  439. 21:00our agents and other people in our
  440. 21:03office as opposed to me personally I
  441. 21:05there was a word in the first page I
  442. 21:07said I had a peripheral role and I think
  443. 21:10that's very accurate I did have a role
  444. 21:11but it was peripheral and when you asked
  445. 21:15if other people took these actions you
  446. 21:17know I I will say this this we have a
  447. 21:22culture in the FBI that there's a
  448. 21:24certain pecking order and it's pretty
  449. 21:27strong and it's very rare that someone
  450. 21:30picks up the phone a rank or two above
  451. 21:34themselves it would have to be only on
  452. 21:37the the strongest reasons typically you
  453. 21:40you have to pick up and call you know
  454. 21:42pick up the phone and talk to somebody
  455. 21:44who is at your rank so when these when
  456. 21:47you have an item that requires review by
  457. 21:50a higher level it's incumbent for you to
  458. 21:53go to a higher level person in your
  459. 21:55office and then for that person to make
  460. 21:57a call the Inspector General talked to
  461. 22:00you about this case I've had a call from
  462. 22:03the Inspector General but so far we
  463. 22:05haven't gotten into any role fax or
  464. 22:07anything when did he first contact you I
  465. 22:11I was contacted by an investigative
  466. 22:14counsel from the Office of Inspector
  467. 22:17General NASA and it was basically just
  468. 22:19to introduce introduce herself how long
  469. 22:22ago it was last week I think just a day
  470. 22:28or two after director Muller announced
  471. 22:31that it would be turned over to the
  472. 22:32Office of Inspector General thank you
  473. 22:34and you've raised an important issue
  474. 22:37also about the so called McDade law and
  475. 22:40your testimony you know that law was
  476. 22:43slipped into a massive omnibus
  477. 22:44appropriations bill some of us called
  478. 22:46ominous appropriations bills back in
  479. 22:491999 senator hatch
  480. 22:52and Senator Wyden have been trying to
  481. 22:53fix this problem 14:37 to fix the
  482. 22:59problem I want you know there's some of
  483. 23:01us on the committee that recognize it is
  484. 23:03a problem and Senator hatch and I are
  485. 23:06trying very much to fix the problem
  486. 23:09we'll keep trying eventually successful
  487. 23:12he came very close we thought we had it
  488. 23:14fixed in the USA PATRIOT Act but he's
  489. 23:25committed to get it fixed
  490. 23:29what a welcome you to the committee miss
  491. 23:31Rowley and the outside I want to thank
  492. 23:34you for appearing before the committee I
  493. 23:36also commend you for your letter of May
  494. 23:3821st to director Muller that letter
  495. 23:42raises a variety of significant issues
  496. 23:45that need to be considered during the
  497. 23:47reorg any reorganizing of the FBI and I
  498. 23:51can only imagine how difficult it was
  499. 23:52for you to write the letter and then
  500. 23:54forward it to director Muller and others
  501. 23:56so I want to ask you a few questions to
  502. 23:58clarify some statements in the letter in
  503. 24:01the c-curve use them on aspects of the
  504. 24:04specific reorganization plan I believe
  505. 24:08the FBI is most important law
  506. 24:11enforcement agency in the world and I
  507. 24:14know you do too
  508. 24:15and that's why you wrote the letter and
  509. 24:17you'd like to have it continue to be a
  510. 24:20great agency but in your letter you
  511. 24:22detail the difficult is you and the
  512. 24:24Minneapolis agents encountered in
  513. 24:26seeking a search warrant under the
  514. 24:29Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act
  515. 24:30procedures we've been referring to that
  516. 24:33as FISA all day what the FISA and your
  517. 24:37legal training what modifications do you
  518. 24:40believe may be warranted to defy the
  519. 24:42statute in order to enable the FBI to
  520. 24:45obtain such approvals when investigating
  521. 24:48terrorists well I heard some of the
  522. 24:52discussion this morning about the the
  523. 24:55necessity to perhaps take out the
  524. 24:58working on behalf of a foreign power
  525. 25:01aspect in thinking about that and to be
  526. 25:04honest they haven't thought about
  527. 25:05a whole lot and in addition I have not
  528. 25:08had that much personal experience in
  529. 25:10working with the face the process our
  530. 25:12office is not as involved as other
  531. 25:15offices would be however I think in a
  532. 25:18way just knowing what I know about
  533. 25:20criminal and totality of circumstances
  534. 25:23etc I am not quite sure that it needs to
  535. 25:26be modified I think in a way perhaps
  536. 25:28what we have is because probable cause
  537. 25:31and proving or shown making these
  538. 25:34showings that are required are not like
  539. 25:37a DNA test they're not a litmus test you
  540. 25:39can't put it in and have it come out a
  541. 25:41hundred times the same way and what can
  542. 25:43happen is mindsets in over time
  543. 25:46different interpretations and you can
  544. 25:49have something becoming unduly difficult
  545. 25:52when when you actually look back maybe
  546. 25:54ten years ago this wasn't the case and
  547. 25:56there was basically a lesser standard I
  548. 25:59think when you look at totality of the
  549. 26:02circumstances and probable cause you are
  550. 26:05looking at more probable than not I'm
  551. 26:07not even quite sure if the physis I
  552. 26:10think face the statute requires it as
  553. 26:12well more probable than not and I think
  554. 26:14that if you look at a totality if
  555. 26:16someone is working on behalf of a
  556. 26:18foreign power these terrorists entities
  557. 26:22are not like countries they don't have
  558. 26:24embassies they don't send us their
  559. 26:27membership lists they don't send us
  560. 26:29their little organizational charts
  561. 26:33I worked mafia cases in the nineteen
  562. 26:35eighty and the Mafia didn't do that
  563. 26:36either we didn't they didn't send us
  564. 26:39their membership we had to figure it out
  565. 26:41and after a few years we certainly did
  566. 26:44have hierarchies of each organized crime
  567. 26:47family but that that was gained from
  568. 26:49surveillance it was gained from little
  569. 26:51snippets of information we would get
  570. 26:53from wiretaps that so-and-so is working
  571. 26:57for so-and-so and I think that we should
  572. 26:59be able to use that same type of thing
  573. 27:01for demonstrating that someone is
  574. 27:03working on behalf of a foreign power
  575. 27:05especially with a terrorist organization
  576. 27:07and I'm not sure that the language needs
  577. 27:09to be modified but I think we need to
  578. 27:11realize that it's this almost the same
  579. 27:13type of thing that we're up against we
  580. 27:15are not going to get concrete
  581. 27:17membership lists organizational charts
  582. 27:20that we can say okay or even the
  583. 27:22definition of the group sometimes these
  584. 27:25groups are very amorphous and by nature
  585. 27:28terrorism groups operate more
  586. 27:30effectively without having real defined
  587. 27:33hierarchies and who reports to who etc
  588. 27:36so that's kind of my take on it of
  589. 27:39course to a large degree we're talking
  590. 27:40about surveillance and unless you can
  591. 27:43show that they are operatives for a
  592. 27:45foreign power or that they you have
  593. 27:47probable cause to believe that they are
  594. 27:50part of Al Qaeda's in this particular
  595. 27:53case you can't get the right to just
  596. 27:56surveil and say that's what I think is
  597. 27:59and many people are concerned on the
  598. 28:02other side that that if we grant that
  599. 28:04broad right then it'll be misused sooner
  600. 28:08or later by somebody who would not be as
  601. 28:09perspicacious as you are or or director
  602. 28:12Muller is but I see it's a big problem
  603. 28:15because as you can see we basically
  604. 28:18couldn't get surveillance on I think
  605. 28:21basically all of those twenty I'm not
  606. 28:25gonna comment on all the facts but of
  607. 28:27the case I I my analysis of the case is
  608. 28:32that perhaps that you know it already
  609. 28:35exists you've read my letter and I think
  610. 28:38that it's an it's a it's an obstacle and
  611. 28:40I think maybe it's a possibility to
  612. 28:42consider whether maybe that that amount
  613. 28:44or that thresholds it should be somewhat
  614. 28:47eased especially in cases with
  615. 28:49terrorists where it's it's hard to but I
  616. 28:51think things like surveillance and
  617. 28:53knowing who met who and things like that
  618. 28:55should figure into it alright the agent
  619. 28:57rarely since your letter of May 21st the
  620. 29:00Attorney General was issued and new
  621. 29:02investigative guidelines that will
  622. 29:03expand the FBI's investigative tools now
  623. 29:07given your experience in the field can
  624. 29:09you describe in practical terms how will
  625. 29:11these new guidelines assist the FBI at
  626. 29:14least the field agents in carrying out
  627. 29:16the FBI mission or missions I have not
  628. 29:21had a chance to really fully read the
  629. 29:24modifications I have heard what the
  630. 29:27three you know the main topics that have
  631. 29:30been brought up about go
  632. 29:31into public meetings and surfing the net
  633. 29:33and there is one additional thing I
  634. 29:36think in those AG guidelines which
  635. 29:37delegates down to the SA sees the
  636. 29:40ability and the authority to open up a
  637. 29:42case a preliminary inquiry to the extent
  638. 29:47that I am definitely and I think we the
  639. 29:50the rest of the agents I've heard from
  640. 29:52are definitely in favor that when it's
  641. 29:54possible to delegate down to a lower
  642. 29:57authority level we will be more nimble
  643. 29:59and agile I am very much in favor of
  644. 30:02that ability to open up a preliminary
  645. 30:04inquiry by the SA see that aspects good
  646. 30:07I do want to maybe at some point get the
  647. 30:10chance to talk about how I know people
  648. 30:13this morning we're talking about their
  649. 30:16fear that some of these new abilities to
  650. 30:21monitor public meetings I have a little
  651. 30:24unique insight because I process Freedom
  652. 30:25of Information cases and I can I read
  653. 30:28some of our old files from the 1950s and
  654. 30:31I will see in there where we got the
  655. 30:34people back then for a lot of reasons
  656. 30:36got a little carried away when they went
  657. 30:38to a meeting they recorded everyone who
  658. 30:41came whether they were important or not
  659. 30:43whether the person advocated whatever
  660. 30:47you know a terrorist point of view or
  661. 30:50whatever and I see that type of thing
  662. 30:53that happened in the past or what I
  663. 30:55think that we need to do is a lot of is
  664. 30:58in the how and if you go to a public
  665. 31:01meeting for instance maybe someone maybe
  666. 31:03we've gotten a little bit of information
  667. 31:05that someone in that meeting might be
  668. 31:07discussing a terrorist act I think it is
  669. 31:10very good and logical that someone would
  670. 31:13go and sit in just to make sure that
  671. 31:15doesn't happen so if in fact a person
  672. 31:19stands up and says hey let's all do this
  673. 31:23let's all you know undertake this and
  674. 31:26gives a speech about undertaking an act
  675. 31:27of terrorism we are now going to be in a
  676. 31:29position that we will know it now if
  677. 31:32that same agent even based on a good tip
  678. 31:35goes to the meeting and people are
  679. 31:37merely engaging in their First Amendment
  680. 31:39rights here's the the thing nothing
  681. 31:42happens
  682. 31:42from that information that's the
  683. 31:43difference in the 50s we don't come back
  684. 31:46and record who was there we do not look
  685. 31:49into the people

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