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Coleen Rowley : An FBI Veteran Examines ICE Lawlessness. — Transcript

by Judge Napolitano - Judging Freedom · 4,393 words · 642 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:03Undeclared wars are commonplace.
0:06Tragically, our government engages in
0:09preemptive war, otherwise known as
0:11aggression, with no complaints from the
0:13American people. Sadly, we have become
0:16accustomed to living with the
0:17illegitimate use of force by government.
0:20To develop a [music] truly free society,
0:22the issue of initiating force must be
0:24understood
0:26and rejected.
0:28What if sometimes to love your [music]
0:30country you had to alter or abolish the
0:32government? What if Jefferson was right?
0:35What if that government [music] is best
0:36which governs least?
0:39What if it is dangerous to be right when
0:41the government is wrong? What if it is
0:43better [music] to perish fighting for
0:45freedom than to live as a slave? What if
0:49freedom's [music] greatest hour of
0:50danger is now?
0:55[music]
1:03Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Npalitano here
1:05for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday,
1:08February 2nd, 2025.
1:11My guest today, who has been on the show
1:13before and who probably will be on many
1:15times to come, is Colleen Rowley.
1:17Colleen is a former special agent with
1:19the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
1:22Uh, and she has kindly uh offered to
1:25give us some of her time today. Colleen,
1:27it's a pleasure. You and I have been
1:28friends for a long time going back to
1:30when I worked at Fox News. Uh, and you
1:34were kind enough to appear on the show
1:36that I was hosting at the time. I
1:37appreciate your time. Now, I mean, not
1:40only are you um a former FBI agent, but
1:45you are from and live in, of all places,
1:48Minnesota, so you really are most
1:51appropriate to be addressing the ICE uh
1:55immigration and customs enforcement
1:57issues uh with us today. Um I'm reminded
2:02of that statement by President John
2:04Quincy Adams. We should not go abroad
2:07looking for monsters to slay. One of our
2:11onair regular guest ambassador Chaz
2:13Freeman has modified that by saying when
2:17you go abroad looking for monsters to
2:19slay, they have a way of following you
2:22home.
2:24Has American militarism abroad now
2:29manifested itself in the streets of
2:31Minneapolis and St. Paul?
2:34>> Yes. uh Minnesota, which we always used
2:37to call Minnesota nice, you know,
2:40something out of that old uh sitcom Andy
2:42Griffith of Mayberry. But unfortunately,
2:46um when I was the legal counsel of the
2:49FBI office here for 13 years, I had a
2:52good chance to teach agents about the
2:54following the constitutional law,
2:56especially the law of criminal
2:57procedure. So that when the uh war on
3:01terror, which I actually was I put I was
3:04one of the first people I put it in
3:06quotes when I wrote that memo um that
3:09landed me on the cover of Time magazine.
3:12But when you saw this happening, I
3:15warned that that same thing that Chaz
3:17Freeman just said that the war uh powers
3:21would be turned on Americans in the form
3:25of loosened deadly force standards. And
3:28of course with the um uh wrongful
3:32unlawful shootings of actually there's
3:35more than the two Americans. They shot
3:37also an immigrant u apparently in the
3:40leg. um uh in between those shootings or
3:44before then. So there's three shootings
3:46in Minnesota. And so unfortunately, you
3:49hate to be right, but that warning that
3:50I gave in February 2003 to FBI Director
3:55Mueller, who was then testifying to, you
3:59know, basically not telling the truth to
4:01Congress, but trying to support the lies
4:04to start the war on um on Iraq. And I
4:07warned about this. The [clears throat]
4:09funny thing is many in the FBI said I
4:11was kind of crazy. They said, "Oh no, we
4:14will never change the deadly force
4:16standards." And you know, of course,
4:18they were solidly ingrained back in 2000
4:21in the early 2000s. The um we trained
4:25with simulated uh screens, shoot don't
4:29shoot, and you know, if you shot the
4:31wrong innocent person, you know, or
4:33could or if you didn't shoot in time,
4:36you could be killed. So, I mean, all
4:38this training that has just literally
4:40gone up in smoke between legal lectures
4:43and actual practical training, people
4:45didn't think it could happen, but it
4:48has. And now, uh, this weekend they went
4:51on a bicycle ride for a memorial for um,
4:54Alex Prey, and they had they wore yellow
4:59um, kind of like emergency yellow vests
5:02that said in the back, big words, don't
5:05shoot me. Um, so it it's turned out that
5:08in Minnesota you have to get one of
5:10these yellow vests that say don't shoot
5:12me uh to feel a little safer. It's very
5:15very sad.
5:18>> One of our uh chatters who calls him or
5:22herself redneck Catholic says Colleen
5:25has been my hero for a long time. You've
5:27been a hero for a lot of people. So big
5:30picture. Big picture. Now, before we get
5:33into
5:34how it is never justifiable to shoot an
5:37unarmed person in the back, but big
5:39picture,
5:41what's wrong with ICE in Minnesota? Is
5:44it too many ICE agents? Is it the JD
5:49Vance nonsense that they think they have
5:52absolute immunity? Is it their
5:54militarization? Is it their uniform? Is
5:57it their covering their faces and hiding
5:59their names? What's the big picture
6:01issue?
6:04>> You've probably named almost all of the
6:07root causes uh of this problem. Uh when
6:11you recruit people and your your ads,
6:14they should be taken off the air because
6:16they're basically advertising to hire
6:18people who will for the money the the
6:21$50,000 bonus and only getting a few
6:25days. They only have to sit through 47
6:27days of training. uh which you know
6:29people that want to be armed and go out
6:32and and have this authority over the
6:34public whatever and be exonerated so
6:37that there's not nothing uh considered
6:40to be an unlawful order uh you know
6:43which is what JD Vance said with uh you
6:46have absolute immunity which is
6:48completely legally wrong and all of
6:50those things of course the
6:51militarization
6:53dressing up like paramilitary with uh
6:56grenades I mean it's like tear gas
6:58grenades that that uh our former head of
7:02u ICE or border patrol in Minnesota. He
7:05was like showing off by throwing these
7:07grenades at crowds and then all the
7:10tactics that have been imported here
7:13through co-training with the Israeli IDF
7:17um which are tactics like breaking
7:20windows. You know, you see this in that
7:22first shooting where he's they're
7:24reaching in to try to open the door. At
7:26least uh one of them is saying to go,
7:28the other one is trying to reach in. And
7:31those tactics all come from uh the
7:34genocidal uh tactics being used in um
7:37Gaza and in uh uh US.
7:40>> Do do uh ICE agents undergo
7:44training with or given by Israeli
7:47defense for force personnel?
7:50Yes, you'll you'll have to ask. Um
7:52Anthony Aguualar was in these areas and
7:55he witnessed this co-training, but I can
7:58tell you from my own personal experience
8:00that after 911, I was called within days
8:04by Israelis telling us that now we had
8:08to we had to now use all of the tactics
8:11that Israel uses. This is before they
8:14announced a war on terrorism. This is
8:16even beforehand, literally within days
8:18of 911. I got a series of calls from uh
8:22either Apac people or Israelis
8:25themselves telling the FBI saying uh you
8:28know what you've got to now use the same
8:31tactics that Israel uses. And I remember
8:33one of the things was you got to get
8:35attack dogs and dogs to sniff out bombs.
8:38That was one of the things they advised.
8:40And then [clears throat] very shortly
8:42afterwards, Israeli um officers came and
8:46gave talks to our police departments and
8:50to the FBI here. And these talks were
8:53the same thing. You know, you've got to,
8:54you know, wake up people. You can't be
8:57nice anymore. You can't follow laws. You
8:59have to do what we do. One of the talks
9:01that I objected to um even at a law
9:04school was by Israelis was this thing
9:07that Dersowitz put out about you have to
9:10use torture tactics because of the
9:13ticking time bomb. And this talk would
9:16go like ends justify the means. There's
9:18a ticking time bomb in New York and you
9:21caught the guy who knows where the bomb
9:23is and therefore you're allowed to
9:24torture. And I heard this talk from
9:27coming from Israeli sources uh many
9:29times even in a law school in Washington
9:31DC and of course Durowitz you know
9:34amplified it and guess what we got. Um,
9:37so there's been many examples of of uh
9:40appropriating these things, but yes, ICE
9:43has actually been sent over there to
9:44train with uh IDF and that's according
9:47to Anthony, former uh colonel um Anthony
9:51Aguilar, Green Beret Colonel.
9:54>> One of your uh big fans, I think you
9:56know him, John Keryako,
9:59who was the only uh CIA officer that we
10:03know of who went to jail involving
10:05torture. Obviously, he went to jail not
10:07for torturing, but because he revealed
10:10the torture and named the names of the
10:13people who did it. Uh John is a longtime
10:15friend of mine. John's been on the show,
10:17and John, of course, will testify how it
10:19doesn't work. People will say whatever
10:20they think the torturer
10:22uh wants to hear in order to stop what's
10:26uh in order to stop what's going on. One
10:29of the things that's intrigued me, and
10:31this is so so violative of the Fourth
10:35Amendment that a a high school social
10:37studies student would know it, is the
10:40concept of an administrative warrant.
10:43The idea that one ICE agent can sign an
10:47arrest warrant authorizing another ICE
10:51agent to arrest.
10:54Nobody's named everybody working at such
10:57and such a shop at 8:30 uh in the
11:00morning. Everybody working at such and
11:02such a car wash working at 4:00 uh in
11:06the afternoon. The Fourth Amendment
11:09requires warrants issued by federal
11:11judges based on probable cause of crime,
11:14specifically describing the place to be
11:16searched and the person or thing to be
11:18seized. Who would trust one agent to
11:23authorize another?
11:26>> Yeah. And you know, it's similar to now
11:29the uh Department of Homeland Security
11:32claiming that no other law enforcement
11:35agency or state authority can
11:38investigate a violation of murder. They
11:41are going, up till now, they claim
11:44they're allowed to investigate their
11:46own. And of course this uh is ludicrous
11:49in light of the fact that the um no
11:51Christy Gnome the the head person and uh
11:55Vance and others have said prejudged
11:58without factual investigation at all
12:01without any and without of course any uh
12:04legal process um any uh any evaluation
12:08by a jury by a prosecutor by a jury. and
12:10they've they've tried to to say that you
12:13have complete immunity and we will
12:15protect all of the ICE agents involved.
12:18I'm I'm just going to add a little bit
12:20to that prior um question you had about
12:23how this the root causes of this the
12:26protection uh or the the protection that
12:29the uh agents um the ICE agents have
12:34been made to believe they have in order
12:36to follow these unlawful orders. And one
12:40of the one of the things from the start
12:41that the Trump administration wanted was
12:45quantity over quality. So even though in
12:48their campaign they promised to quote
12:51unquote target the worst of the worst,
12:53i.e. you would think people with serious
12:55criminal histories, they sent 3,000 uh
12:59ICE agents here and told them they want
13:02the numbers, not necessarily the the
13:05fact that these were the worst of the
13:06worst. And and just as an aside, with
13:09the release of the Epstein files, we can
13:12very much question who is the worst of
13:14the worst right now. Who is uh in terms
13:16of of criminal backgrounds and and uh
13:19whatever. But they what happened then is
13:23when they got into trouble they had to
13:25protect them otherwise they could not
13:27keep this experiment going in Minnesota
13:30which by the way only has a fraction
13:32only as a a small fraction of immigrants
13:35compared to states like Texas, Florida
13:38and even California. So why were why was
13:42uh Minnesota picked? It wasn't picked
13:44because of a an immigration problem
13:47compared to other places in the United
13:49States. But in any event, to keep this
13:51going, they had to use this protection.
13:54And besides uh claiming that they will
13:56be protected legally and allowing the
13:59agency to to investigate their own, they
14:02protect the identities. So immediately
14:04the the agents who were the shooters
14:07were moved out of Minnesota so that the
14:10Minnesota state authorities could not
14:12gain jurisdiction over those. Uh
14:14>> you know what that's called? That's
14:16called obstruction of justice by barring
14:20people who are constitutionally
14:22authorized and obligated to investigate
14:24crime, state officials from having
14:26access to the evidence.
14:28>> That's right. And and it was said and
14:32actually people were getting this wrong
14:33all over the map. They were uh citing
14:35the supremacy clause. Um and I was I
14:39tried to lecture to some reporters. I
14:41said, you know, Jed Garoover didn't even
14:43have criminal jurisdiction. When the FBI
14:47was formed, they had to create the law
14:50about taking women over a state line to
14:52give him a little bit of jurisdiction.
14:54FBI agents weren't even armed. And why?
14:57Because there was no criminal
14:59jurisdiction. So, it's it's we've come a
15:01long way now where now the the federal
15:04government under the so-called imperial
15:06presidency is allowed to say that states
15:09no longer can prosecute murder. uh it's
15:13if if a federal officer is involved and
15:16as you rightfully noted in the uh in
15:19your one of your recent articles about
15:21the FBI sniper Lan Horyuchi who got into
15:25trouble shooting uh Weaver's wife. Um of
15:29course he wasn't intending to shoot
15:31Weaver Weaver's wife but what he was
15:34given was an unlawful order. uh very few
15:38people remember this aspect but for a
15:40period of time the FBI uh dissembled
15:43let's say let's say they dissembled as
15:46to where this order had come from that
15:49now that Ruby um there had already been
15:52shooting of the uh marshall and so
15:54because of that one of the FBI officials
15:58second in command of the FBI said now
16:00you can shoot any armed male on site
16:04that order was given it was covered up
16:06for a period of time and this got the
16:09poor sniper into terrible trouble
16:11because he was pro they the county
16:14attorney charged him with murder. Now,
16:17eventually the the county attorney was
16:19persuaded to drop the charges, but this
16:21wasn't that didn't come until after uh
16:24at least a couple of years. And I
16:27definitely recall, you know, what that
16:29does is that gives a measure of
16:31accountability so that agents then are
16:34not told they have the green light to do
16:37something like this unlawful order said.
16:40How can um uh Christy Gnome and J D
16:45Vance and Greg uh Bo and Tom Hman,
16:49although I've never actually had heard
16:51this out of H Homeman's mouth, I have
16:52out of the others claim that shooting
16:55Alex Prey in the back nine times when
17:01they had already seized his gun, when
17:04they had blinded him with pepper spray,
17:07and when he was on one leg and one knee
17:11crouched down. There you can see the
17:12picture. How could they possibly justify
17:15that?
17:17>> Um well, if I was arguing on the other
17:20side, I think the only argument is that
17:23um what is it? Connor Graham uh tests
17:26that says you only have a split second
17:29to make a decision. So that would be the
17:32strongest argument uh that the shooters
17:35will have uh that they mis
17:37misunderstood.
17:38hear the Colleen Rowley argument.
17:42>> Well, I my I have lectured that the
17:46state now they are holding off of doing
17:49this but because they did were not given
17:53access to the uh to the site to the
17:56crime scene. They weren't given access
17:59of course to the shooters to get their
18:00statements. However, the videotapes are
18:04the best evidence and that there are
18:07also eyewitness accounts in affidavit.
18:10So, I have been saying and I'm not the
18:12only one. Prominent defense attorneys
18:14have said the same thing. They that the
18:17attorney general in Minnesota should
18:19take this the videotapes to the grand
18:22jury. They should stop them at key
18:24points ideally with a forensic ballistic
18:28deadly force expert and especially the
18:31the one in Alex pretty which shows both
18:33of his hands and they neither hand has a
18:36gun and they're out in front of him and
18:39you know with five or six people
18:41pummeling him at the same time and then
18:44beginning to shoot him. So those are the
18:46key videotapes. they are the best
18:48evidence and I think they should seek uh
18:51murder charges because I think that
18:54despite this cosmetic change of taking
18:57uh Bovino out and replacing him with the
19:00kindly grandpa rumpled the guy that
19:02isn't wearing the paramilitary uh
19:05homeman. I don't I think it's cosmetic.
19:07I don't think much is going to change.
19:10But what could change that people
19:12understand and and this is on for the
19:16people the ICE agents this is for on
19:18their behalf because what happens is
19:20people who are following unlawful orders
19:24are the ones hang out to uh hung out to
19:26dry. Christy Gnome won't be hung out to
19:29dry for doing saying what she said or
19:32Steven Miller saying oh the law the law
19:35is like old-fashioned we don't have to
19:37follow the law anymore. they won't be
19:39held accountable. Typically in all of
19:42these situations, you can look at Meli,
19:44you can look at um all of Ruby Ridge,
19:47for example, and you will find that the
19:50the person who is the one uh executing
19:53or thinking they had the green light to
19:56execute an unlawful order uh is going to
19:59be the ones held responsible. That was
20:01Abu Grave. Abu Grae, the orders came
20:04from on high that the people were told
20:06to do these things. And guess who went
20:08to prison? Uh, little sergeants at the
20:10bottom. So, I think that the way to
20:13curtail it is for our state now to use
20:16the legitimate jurisdiction they have
20:19and take the evidence even though they
20:22don't have access to everything before
20:24the grand juries because this will now
20:27make a um this will give a lesson to the
20:30to the ICE potential ICE shooters. And
20:33it's not, by the way, it's not just
20:36shootings. As you mentioned, there's a
20:38lot of civil rights violations of the
20:41Fourth Amendment, breaking down doors,
20:43hauling even American citizens out into
20:46the uh below zero temperatures in their
20:49underwear. A lot of beatings. A lot of
20:52beatings over the weekend. More people
20:55were still arrested. Um even I know of a
20:58veteran that's still being held in
20:59federal custody. um that was protesting
21:03obviously ICE. So with the people at the
21:06level that are actually on the ground
21:09need this legal lecture. They need this
21:12legal lecture right now. They weren't
21:14obviously they were given the opposite.
21:16And so [clears throat] one
21:17>> what kind of what kind of a screening
21:19does ICE do? It can't can't come close
21:22to the screening the FBI does before it
21:25hires special agents.
21:27>> Yeah. You know, I had a year and a half
21:29of screening. Um, and they went back to
21:32my teachers in high school and my
21:35roommates in in law school and the
21:39people that lived next to me. Oh my
21:41gosh. Um, then we actually had to pass
21:43physical fitness test. We had to what
21:46else would Oh, I had to go through this
21:48interview, but it it from the time I
21:50applied to the time I was hired was
21:53about a year and a half. And it was very
21:55extensive. They do check into
21:57everything. I honestly um and I wasn't
22:00given $50,000.
22:02So you you are incentivizing people uh
22:06for wrong u for wrong reasons. So, if
22:09you're joining law enforcement, as you
22:12know, this is a public service and you
22:14should not be doing it for the money or
22:17because someone says, "Oh, we'll give
22:18you an AR. We'll give you a um a
22:21automatic weapon and and uh all these
22:25these weapons and you'll get to use your
22:27authority." Uh I hate to even mention
22:30this, but I've you know, I've done a lot
22:32of psychology studying, especially about
22:35serial killers. And one of the things
22:37that they will notice, behavioral
22:39scientists will always notice is that
22:42there's an overlap between serial
22:45killing and the law enforcement security
22:49work because you're seeking to gain a
22:51position of authority over others and
22:54obviously for the wrong reasons, not for
22:57the reason of um uh of law enforcement
23:00per se.
23:02Well,
23:04what can we do about this, Colleen?
23:06Other than demonstrating in the streets,
23:09Congress is u missing in action. There
23:12are some members of Congress who are
23:15courageous. There's legislation
23:18uh for example to uh force ICE to
23:21identify themselves and take their masks
23:24off. Almost all Republicans in the House
23:26will oppose it. If two or three vote for
23:29it with all the Democrats, it'll pass.
23:31And it will certainly pass in the
23:33Senate. That's a little cosmetic.
23:35Although it is terrifying to see these
23:37guys with masks on. The culture needs to
23:41change. The attitude of them versus us
23:45needs to change. The militaristic
23:48a aspect of it needs to change.
23:53[snorts]
23:54>> Absolutely. Um, the militarization is
23:58largely based upon a war zone mentality.
24:01If you remember the name of the book uh
24:04about Vietnam, it was Nick Tur's book.
24:07It was entitled Shoot Anything That
24:10Moves. Uh, and and of course that, you
24:13know, applies. It shouldn't have and it
24:16should actually be a war crime in
24:19Vietnam and other places. However, that
24:22mentality has now morphed through all of
24:26this lauding over uh 20ome years now of
24:30of our wars and our military and
24:33constantly lying about the enemy that we
24:36need to use preemptive force on
24:39preemptive invasion, preemptive assault.
24:42that this was why it was very obvious
24:44from the start that if you start
24:45launching preemptive wars that turn out
24:48not to be justified at all that that
24:52will that mentality will morph back to
24:54the United States in and and uh give
24:57rise to uh unlawful actions on the on
25:00the part of law enforcement. But you're
25:02you're absolutely right. I here's some
25:04hope. I got some hope here and it is in
25:07that third branch, the judiciary. um
25:10Congress, you know, before I get to the
25:12judiciary, um their their promise to
25:15withhold funding for DHS um unless
25:19significant reforms are made um and and
25:23the level of the significant uh reforms.
25:26It's more than just taking a mask off. I
25:29mean, there's a lot of things that
25:31should be done to reform. And you would
25:33hope that Congress would hold to that
25:35promise that they made and and would
25:38insist on very significant reform. Uh
25:41number one, scaling it back uh in in
25:44order to do what uh Trump even promised,
25:47which was targeting the worst of the
25:49worst of people with serious criminal
25:52histories as opposed to people who have
25:54lived here for 20 years, working hard,
25:56paying Social Security, etc. Very
25:59different. I mean, there's a whole bunch
26:00of things in that reform. We're gonna
26:02have to wait and see if that happens.
26:04I'm I'm not as hopeful with Congress for
26:07a lot of reasons, but our judiciary here
26:11in Minnesota has been and I think other
26:14places has been doing a decent job. Um
26:17they they've uh w released um there's
26:21been 500 and some Ritz of habius corpus
26:24which by the in one month which is more
26:27than an entire year's worth of criminal
26:30cases ever. brought in Minnesota and
26:33they've released people that were
26:34wrongfully detained. um they are
26:38listening to arguments brought by
26:40Minnesota authorities and I think there
26:43is a chance that our judges now it's
26:46it's hard for the judges to assume
26:48responsibility too in such a lawless
26:50thing but I what I keep and you'll
26:52remember this quote justice Brandeise
26:55it's the number one thing I mean the
26:57smartest thing that any judge has ever
26:59said I think in the 1920s or something
27:03under this
27:04>> talking about his his descent in Mstead
27:06instead. Go ahead. I'll let you say it.
27:08>> Well, I'm going to butcher it, so maybe
27:09you'll correct me, but it's it basically
27:12goes, when the government becomes the
27:15wrongdoer, it breeds contempt for the
27:18law. And that and it leads to anarchy.
27:21And you know,
27:23>> you're 100% correct. And that's where we
27:25are today. The government is the
27:28wrongdoer.
27:30One of the worst statements in in this
27:32whole morass has been JD Vance. I have
27:34nothing against him personally or or
27:36even politically, but for him to say to
27:39them, you have absolute immunity. And
27:41then not to correct himself when he
27:44knows a Yale Law School graduate when he
27:47knows under the law that he's wrong. He
27:49has unleashed these monsters with a
27:52false sense of legal security. Uh
27:55Colleen Rally, it's a pleasure, my dear
27:57friend. Would you come back and visit
27:58with us again? I hope there's not
28:00another killing, but I hope you can come
28:02back and visit with us maybe after there
28:04are some judicial rulings that are
28:07gratifying or please Lord, the Congress
28:11does the right thing.
28:13>> Exactly. Thank you so much for having me
28:15and I just hope I cross my fingers. But
28:18we got also the mass ep epidemic of
28:20shootings which is also what Brandeise
28:23warned about. Exactly.
28:25>> Yes. Thank you so much, Colleen. All the
28:27best to you.
28:30Great uh a great great lady. Tomorrow,
28:33Tuesday, uh Ambassador Chaz Freeman at 8
28:36in the morning, Professor Jeffrey Saxs
28:38at 10. At 1:00, Aaron Mate at 2:00,
28:42Matthew Hoe at 3:00, Colonel Karen
28:45Quadcowski at 4:00, Scott Ritter, Judge
28:48Npalitano for judging freedom.
28:53[music]
28:54Heat.
28:59[music]
29:04Heat.
29:08[music]
29:16>> [music]

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