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Classical Q&A with Chris Perrin — Transcript

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0:03all right well Welcome to our first uh
0:06classical Q&A and our guest in this this
0:09very first edition is Dr Christopher
0:10parin from Classical Academic Press how
0:13are you sir I'm I'm very well today how
0:15are you David I'm doing well uh welcome
0:18well welcome back to the east coast
0:20after your travels to the West Coast
0:23it's good to be back it's it's good to
0:25be back especially and encounter the
0:26same kind of weather I was enjoying in
0:28Southern California here Central
0:31PA um yeah we're not getting that here
0:34in the
0:34South right it's it's you know I'm I'm
0:37remembering the song uh from way back
0:39when it never rains in southern
0:40California and I was there for about two
0:43weeks and it indeed didn't
0:45rain but it's also Brown here in here in
0:49central Pennsylvania it's very green but
0:52I was greeted with some rain at first
0:54but now it's sunny and beautiful so very
0:56so glad to be
0:58home very nice
1:00well um for those of you that have never
1:02seen something like this before you may
1:04be watching it on our YouTube channel or
1:05Vimeo Channel or just through the
1:07website we are using uh Google+ Hangouts
1:11and so um what it does is when someone
1:14speaks it'll switch the camera to the
1:16person who's speaking so uh bear with us
1:18as we kind of get used to this this
1:20technology and use it for the first time
1:23um and as we kind of work our way into
1:26this uh this new this new uh program um
1:30now with that c caveat out of the way
1:32let's dive right into the
1:34questions um we have a number of
1:37different kinds of questions we have
1:38questions U from homeschoolers from
1:40school teachers uh about classical
1:42education in general about teaching
1:44literature about U teaching languages
1:47and we'll try to get to as many of them
1:48as we can but most importantly I think I
1:50want to let the conversation go and let
1:52you provide the wisdom that you spent
1:54years acquiring
1:57attaining um but here's a good one that
1:59thought was worth starting and this is
2:01from an um and she says how can I
2:06succinctly explain uh classical
2:08education to someone who has never heard
2:10of it I some I sometimes uh let's see I
2:14sometimes feel pressured to speak in
2:16sound bites all the time classical
2:18education to me is so Dynamic and
2:20multifaceted that I can't seem to and
2:22she puts quotations around it uh sell it
2:24in a few words or less so I'll turn that
2:26question over to you that's a great
2:29question from and U one that we wrestle
2:32with all the time those of us who are
2:34trying to renew this
2:35tradition well and I think there are a
2:37lot of ways that you could answer the
2:39question um but uh in general I would
2:43say this use use analogy and metaphor
2:46because something as big as this
2:48tradition can't be described kind of
2:51prosaically um in two minutes you really
2:55do need a metaphor uh and I think if you
2:58can use a metaphor or an analogy that
3:00gets people interested and helps them to
3:02imagine what this tradition is they may
3:04want to go farther and so in a short
3:06conversation I think your goal is really
3:08to get is to give them a taste for what
3:10classical education is uh peque their
3:14imagination so they begin to think about
3:16it maybe in some new ways and become
3:18interested and fascinated so that
3:20they'll go farther because you can't
3:22explain it in two minutes it's like
3:24trying to explain you know French
3:27culture to someone who has no idea what
3:29it is can't do it in the elevator you
3:31can just get them started so you have to
3:33really view this as a series of
3:35conversations and if you think about
3:37your own experience with this big
3:39tradition um hasn't that been the case
3:42for you as well that you didn't grasp it
3:44in the first two or three minutes so um
3:48some analogies that I like to use are
3:50these uh Cathedral um I often will say
3:52well it's like coming into a big
3:54beautiful cathedral like the Cathedral
3:56at orvietto in Italy or the cathedral in
3:59uh you notredam um there are many
4:01chapels in these Cathedrals but you and
4:03you can come in through any portal but
4:06once you're in you're in but the
4:07cathedral is a big deal there's it's got
4:10a lot of different uh perspectives you
4:12know there's there's just looking at all
4:14the stained glass there's looking at the
4:15Rose window there's going to a
4:17particular Chapel that might be focused
4:19on a particular um aspect of the
4:22Christian tradition there's um you know
4:25taking it in as a
4:27ho um there's the singing there's the
4:30the the the section where the monks sit
4:33and sing and chant to one another so
4:35it's a it's a big it's a big Cathedral
4:37is going to take a a lot of time to get
4:40to know or a museum might be an analogy
4:42and sometimes I'll appeel the people
4:43said have you ever been to the
4:44Metropolitan Museum of Art you know you
4:47could you can really get get the gist of
4:49it can't you in about uh 30 minutes you
4:51just walk through it or maybe no you
4:53can't each room you know invites you and
4:56beckons you to stay for a long time even
4:58days
5:00um and the classical tradition is really
5:03it's like a Living Museum um so uh that
5:08maybe the maybe PA Pathways the ancient
5:11Pathways sometimes I talk about the
5:12Roman roads that are still in use today
5:15there still as some of the Roman RADS
5:17like the appan way and so forth they're
5:18still standing and people still use them
5:21so walking walking on the paths of of
5:24those who have gone before us and and
5:27acquiring the same view and perspective
5:30by going on the same journey and and the
5:33same wisdom um a table a big table where
5:37people are gathering those those of us
5:39in the Christian tradition know that
5:40there's a table waiting in the um you
5:43the wedding supper of the Lamb where the
5:45the church is going to be together
5:48celebrating well the classical tradition
5:50is like a big table a really long table
5:53where you can meet all kinds of people
5:55people that you live with now but also
5:57people who' have gone before us so at
5:59that that table you'll find Augustine
6:02and aquinus um Jonathan Edwards Martin
6:07Luther uh Maximus the
6:09Confessor um you know uh Jonathan
6:13Edwards Dorothy sares CS Lewis um both
6:18ancient to the modern will all be
6:20together and having
6:22conversation um you know so I would I
6:26would use I would use analogies like
6:27that sometimes I'll say when I'm doing
6:29staff training with a with a with a
6:30faculty I'll say this is this is like
6:32learning a new culture so we're not
6:35going to we're not going to be able to
6:36franchise this we're not going to be
6:37able to get it in a short course and one
6:40analogy I've used is
6:41um the French culture so I imagine we're
6:44going to become a French immersion
6:45school and we'll all be teaching in
6:47French in in three years and we'll be
6:50speaking French in the hallways um
6:53that's kind of what this is like you're
6:55going to learn a new culture and a new
6:56language and it will take some time you
6:58may know something about it but to
6:59recover the whole thing uh with some
7:02kind of Integrity will take quite a
7:04while having said that um so analogy I
7:07you could also use a couple of very
7:09brief definitions like well well what is
7:11this classical liberal arts education
7:14well my friend Martin CN often says it's
7:16the Seven Liberal Arts in the great
7:17books you start there and then what are
7:20those liberal arts whether it's grammar
7:22logic and rhetoric and the Trivium and
7:23the quad rivium and then reading really
7:25great literature um it's distilled
7:29Essence is is that simple but of course
7:31that's just the tip of the iceberg
7:33underneath that is a is a lot you could
7:35say it's you know classical Chris
7:37education is the traditional um
7:39curriculum in pedagogy that was uh
7:42started by the Greeks and Romans
7:43employed and developed by the church uh
7:47over the years in order to cultivate men
7:49and women with um um uh by by the Seven
7:53Liberal Arts so that they acquire wisdom
7:55virtue and eloquence you know you could
7:57memorize some of those little dis uh
7:59definitions I know that um Andrew Kern
8:02will often say it's the it's the
8:04cultivation of a human soul um
8:07reflecting on Truth goodness and Beauty
8:09by means of the Seven Liberal Arts um so
8:12this idea of Education being the the
8:14unfolding and cultivation the drawing
8:17out of a human being a soul that becomes
8:20the best version of himself or herself
8:23can be another place to
8:24start the word education so sometimes by
8:28analogy dictionary
8:30definition um and then sometimes I think
8:33you can just use atmology so sometimes I
8:35will just start with a word like
8:37education say well it really is
8:39traditional
8:41education and just to play with those
8:43two words for a moment tradition means
8:45something that's been handed down to us
8:47from Trot trere in Latin to to hand over
8:50we get the word trade from that as you
8:52know so tradition's been handed down to
8:54us so it's cultural transmission what
8:57what has been handed down to us um well
9:00that's a big part of what education is
9:02in the big sense of the word education
9:04itself as a word means the you know it
9:08means a full humanizing of of a human
9:10being but just to play with the atmology
9:13for a moment you know it's from doco I
9:15lead and X Out or a Duco meaning to to
9:18draw or lead out some people have
9:21thought that meant that you're trying to
9:23Socratic fashion try to pull the wisdom
9:25or the knowledge out of a human being
9:26that's already there you know sock
9:29Socrates um talks about this in a couple
9:32of the dialogues this idea that we have
9:35Knowledge from a past life and we're
9:37trying to recollect what we already know
9:39so he tries to he tries to show that
9:41slave already knows geometry knows some
9:43mathematics well it's not that kind of
9:45education we're trying to draw something
9:47out that's already there really the word
9:49means to draw out as in unfolding a
9:51human being you know
9:53unpacking um helping a helping a soul to
9:57develop and grow over time to become um
10:01the fullest the best version of
10:03himself if that's
10:05education um you could start there with
10:08just that definition you know it's it's
10:09a cultivation of a human being and that
10:12means it's not job training right that
10:15means it's something like equipping a
10:18person for every good work as we read in
10:20in the New Testament it's something like
10:23being trained up to be to to to be to be
10:26willing to serve so you could start just
10:28with that just by talking about
10:30tradition just by talking about
10:32education you could do that in two or
10:34three minutes and get get a conversation
10:37started and hopefully someone would say
10:39that's interesting I haven't thought
10:41about education that way before and then
10:44you say well um I have a good little
10:46book for you you know I have the liberal
10:49arts tradition uh by Robbie Jane and
10:51Kevin Clark or norms and nobility or you
10:55know a number of other books you say
10:56well read read go go deeper or let's
10:58have coffee
11:00sometime so uh memorize the definition
11:04that can help be helpful to have just
11:06have something ready to go that might be
11:08a dictionary definition you know there's
11:09going to be something beneath that later
11:12use an analogy uh play with atmology
11:15last thing I would say is maybe tell a
11:17story if you have time let me just tell
11:19you what's happened in my life with my
11:21kids but that's probably not going to be
11:23done in two minutes that might be the
11:25cup of coffee that you have later
11:30well but that's that's how I it's my
11:32first
11:33response um well I was just going to say
11:36that you know she she mentions at the
11:39end of her question that it's so Dynamic
11:42and multifaceted it being classical
11:44education um that that she can't seem to
11:47as she's put it sell it in a few words
11:49or less and it seems like what you're
11:52saying possibly is that when you talk to
11:54someone about classical education
11:57your your goal your purpose isn't
12:00necessarily to be trying to sell
12:02something and you certainly aren't going
12:04to sell in a few words or less I mean
12:06that it's almost like maybe that as your
12:08goal or that as your purpose is I don't
12:11want to say pointless but not not the
12:13perspective that some we should have
12:14when we're talking about CL classical
12:16education that it should be something
12:18bigger and it should be about planting
12:19seeds am I am I tracking with you there
12:22or am I wrong yeah I think I think be
12:25patient um because um it really I think
12:29it's just best to say it's it's not
12:31something you can really convince
12:32someone of or describe well in a couple
12:34of minutes really what I think you can
12:37do is is Peak their imagination so that
12:41they want they want to they want to have
12:42a longer conversation with you it's
12:44almost like putting something attractive
12:46on the counter and say well here's
12:47something that I think is interesting
12:50and there's more there's more behind me
12:52if you if you're interested but I'm
12:54going to put this out for you um so you
12:58can take one
13:00as she said it's multifaceted so you
13:02could take one
13:03facet and just talk about that and say
13:06well you know it's a multifaceted
13:08tradition but one thing it really does
13:11is it cultivates especially in younger
13:13children their wonder and curiosity it's
13:15a it's an education and wonder and
13:17curiosity if use the cosmos or the world
13:21as a Living Museum that kids should be
13:24uh you know in awe of and modern
13:27education tends to tends to diminish and
13:30even destroy that whereas the classical
13:32tradition cultivates it and I've seen
13:35that in my kids who have gotten really
13:37interested in in in literature and and
13:40the natural world because of the
13:42curriculum and pedagogy you can stop
13:44stop there right and if you just put
13:45that out on the on the counter I think
13:47most people would say well what do you
13:49mean what is this curriculum in pedagogy
13:52that cultivates Wonder because I see in
13:54my eighth grader he has no wonder
13:56anymore um I I'll often share the story
13:59when I'm talking about wonder about how
14:01my son when he was in eth grade he was
14:03going to go on a trip with me somewhere
14:04with one of his
14:06buddies um named Seth and uh Noah and
14:09Seth um Noah got on the phone I heard
14:11him calling said hey Seth we're going to
14:14be in the car for about three or four
14:15hours bring your Norton anthology of
14:18poetry with you so we can read some
14:20poems to one another and that's what
14:23they and they did that in the back seat
14:24for about 45 minutes and I'll just I'll
14:27just share that you my my son was in
14:28e8th grade was still you know still
14:30reading poetry he still likes poetry and
14:33that's like putting something on the
14:34counter most most parents would say
14:37really how how could that
14:39happen
14:41um
14:43so I would uh be patient and you know
14:46while you might want to because you're
14:48excited about something you do in one
14:49sense want to sell it you want to you
14:51want to bless people with things that
14:53have blessed you there's nothing wrong
14:54with that now you know she's using
14:56marketing language but really what you
14:58want to do is you want to bless others
15:00with what has blessed you so I would say
15:04this has been a blessing to me here's
15:05one specific example and if you like to
15:07know more hey let's have coffee sometime
15:10or if you're at a situation you know
15:12where they can talk more they'll
15:13probably start asking you questions the
15:15curriculum and pedagogy really really
15:17works at cultivating wonder the liberal
15:19arts um I've just grown to appreciate
15:23what they are and how they really help
15:24shape a human being to to love the
15:26things that are lovely you say things
15:28like that
15:29normally people say well I no one talks
15:31about education that way so people
15:33usually say well what do you mean love
15:34the things that are lovely well you know
15:37and I realize that some of your your uh
15:39viewers out
15:41there will you know one facet or another
15:43you might feel like well I don't even
15:45know that well enough like education and
15:47wonder I don't know enough about it well
15:49just keep reading yourself and going
15:51deeper talk about what you have
15:53experience that has been a blessing that
15:54you do know that you have had a direct
15:57experience with
16:00ah yeah
16:01so it's always difficult but uh because
16:04it's a tradition that we're trying to
16:05rebuild that we haven't been given with
16:08great integrity so I would just find
16:11that one facet talk about it and then
16:14see if they'll come into a larger
16:17conversation well I suppose there's a
16:19reason that people like you have been
16:21doing this for a long time because it
16:22doesn't happen over
16:24overnight um along those same lines I
16:28just want to follow with one other
16:29question that was sent in by uh someone
16:32named Tabitha and she asks do you think
16:35the classical method will ever become a
16:37mainstream movement in our education
16:39system given the ingrained progressivist
16:42methods what do you think about
16:44that it's obviously an uphill battle
16:47yeah it is and you know public education
16:52is so well planted throughout the
16:57country and you know over 80% of all of
17:00all students are going to a public
17:02school that's Progressive but there's
17:04about 18 to 20% of the population that
17:07are either homeschooling or doing
17:08private education Charter School Mo
17:11movement is getting steamed there are
17:126,000 Charter Schools it's kind of the
17:15one place where choice is operating in
17:17the public system but there are some
17:20100,000 public schools in the K through2
17:24system 3 million Public School
17:27teachers um for a long time the teacher
17:30colleges and Departments of education at
17:33the universities have really been
17:35determining educational philosophy
17:38curriculum pedagogy and at least you
17:42know to to the vast majority of students
17:45and teachers and schools so you're right
17:47when you say it's an uphill battle but
17:50um you know never despised the day of
17:53Small Beginnings um renewals have
17:55happened throughout history and in
17:57culture and of often it is um a you know
18:02an a small group of people who really
18:05get passionate about something who are
18:06able to make big changes you know 10% I
18:10think of 10% of families in this country
18:13got got became convinced that we need to
18:17return to what we could call the
18:19traditional classical approach to
18:21education that would start to make huge
18:24changes over time but I think it's going
18:25to be a multi-generational recovery if
18:28it's ever to become the
18:30dominant um method again but you know
18:33what if we if we could graduate say
18:3510,000 students a year who had received
18:38a robust classical Christian
18:40education what what those 10,000 young
18:44young men and women could do over time
18:46could be extraordinary one thing to
18:48remember when when you think about
18:49cultural renewals it's always been a
18:50small minority of people who have led
18:53who have led um cultural renewal there's
18:56always a kind of small group you call
18:59them an elite only only in the sense
19:01that it's there they're not the majority
19:03but they provide
19:04leadership um it's a small group of
19:06leaders who can change culture because
19:09there's some 80% in the middle who are
19:12just going to kind of follow um the
19:15those who are providing cultural
19:17leadership so I tend to be an optimist
19:20David by uh by temperament um I'm but I
19:23tend to focus on the short term too and
19:25think of let's what can we do that would
19:27really be helpful to our own families
19:29and communities let's start there if if
19:33uh we all are focusing on local renewal
19:37I think it will add up to a national
19:39renewal I think it'll take two
19:45generations well that two generations
19:47that's kind of optimistic maybe it is
19:49are we which are we in the first now I I
19:53think my kids are the first generation I
19:54think we're we're the we're the Bridge
19:56Building generation uh where we trying
19:59to put things together uh we haven't had
20:01a robust classical education ourselves
20:04we maybe have gotten it in various
20:06fragments we're trying to pull those
20:08fragments together and give it
20:09holistically to our kids kids are going
20:13through it now they're and then but even
20:15they are experiencing some of our
20:17imperfections as we're trying to pull it
20:19together again and because we don't
20:21embody it as holistically as we would
20:23like it's not as strong in passing it
20:26down we're trying to take the tradition
20:28that was passed down to us that was
20:30fragmented put it together and give it
20:32more holistically to the Next Generation
20:34but you know my daughter Zoe for example
20:36um now going on to grad school um you
20:39know what she'll be able to do with her
20:40children will be I think Superior to
20:43what I was able to do with
20:45mine um but what she'll be able to do
20:47with her uh with her her grandkids you
20:50know the Next Generation you know
20:52hopefully will be even
20:54better so I think it's appropriate to
20:56occasionally think about this uh
20:59um you know to pray uh often often
21:01cultural renewal has been and and church
21:04renewal has been associated with
21:06education that's been one facet of it
21:09that how we raise up our sons and
21:10daughters has a lot to do with where the
21:12church goes and your typical Cokes and
21:15jokes have a good time youth ministry uh
21:19is not it's not working um I think it's
21:21a capitulation to culture it's taking
21:24our cues from kind of secular culture to
21:27too large of a degree not that
21:29everything in our our secular culture is
21:31to be uh
21:33discarded but we need to be makers of
21:36culture not just imitators of what is
21:39you know a lot of the great great
21:42cultural artifacts and institutions that
21:44we enjoy were constructed by thoughtful
21:47Christian people over the
21:49centuries um people who built Cathedrals
21:52for example to return to that analogy
21:55who were thinking longterm made great
21:57sacrifices and assume that the church
21:58was going to be the center of a
22:00community um that took a kind of
22:03commitment how many churches today are
22:06being built with that kind of view in
22:07mind we'd rather rent a storefront or
22:09put up a steel pole building because of
22:13we don't expect that our church is going
22:15to be around in a 100 years the homes we
22:18built are only designed to last about 30
22:20to 50 years and they're supposed to fall
22:22down because they're made out of sticks
22:24and vinyl so uh you know there's a we
22:28know we need to return to
22:30becoming you know makers of culture
22:34because we're
22:35being we're we're being encultured by
22:39this tradition which itself is a culture
22:41we're passing it
22:43down so that's a longterm uh proposition
22:47um the long-term you know I see these
22:50bumper stickers that say uh think
22:52globally act locally um well there's I
22:55think there's some wisdom to that for
22:57Christian Renewal we want we want think
22:58big picture you want to think long term
23:01but we want to act in our local
23:02communities as well you might remember
23:05the story um George Grant told this
23:09several years ago um and then I looked
23:11it up on the internet to make sure it
23:12was true and therefore it was on the
23:13internet it must be true but it's a
23:15story about um uh a a dining hall in
23:20Oxford that's 500 years old in which the
23:24the Big Oak beam across the entire
23:26traversing the entire roof began to from
23:28dry rot and they needed to replace it
23:31they could not find any timber that was
23:32long enough to to to to create or craft
23:35a beam of that length they went to
23:38England looked for Oak beams couldn't
23:40find it then went to Africa and North
23:41America they could not find these you
23:44know a really long piece of Timber Oak
23:46Timber to replace it and during this
23:48time the custodian in the basement found
23:50the old 500y old um plans for the
23:54building including the care for the
23:56grounds the grounds keeping plans and
24:00they the Provost was reading this and
24:03was astounded to find that they had
24:05planned for this 500 years earlier uh
24:10when something like this in in 500 years
24:12as he was reading the plans this this
24:13Oak beam supporting the roof will suffer
24:16from dry dry Rod but we've made
24:20provision and it's at that point he
24:21looked outside and saw the huge oak
24:23trees have been planted on the
24:26grounds and before anyone could stopped
24:28them they cut down one of those trees
24:31and crafted the beam that they needed so
24:34here here were people thinking 500 years
24:37down the road and making provision so
24:40that kind of long-term thinking does
24:42need to return we need to be thinking
24:44about the Next Generation not just my
24:46kids but multiple
24:48Generations uh will we invest in
24:51multiple Generations that's certainly
24:52swimming across against the current of
24:55our modern age but I think I like the
24:58IDE of thinking thinking universally but
25:00also acting locally but what's been lost
25:03in two or three generations will take at
25:05least two or three generations to
25:08restore you you just mentioned the word
25:11um inculturation and actually we had a
25:13question specifically about that this
25:16comes from from Lena and she says I have
25:19read a lot about forming the Mind
25:21through the liberal arts um but I will
25:23admit that when it comes to forming
25:25loves in culturation I'm not sure how to
25:27be system atic about it what are some
25:30resources for figuring out how to form
25:32my children's love for truth beauty and
25:34goodness where do I go for information
25:36on creating a Liturgy of life that
25:38really includes those things what do you
25:40think how would you answer that question
25:42that's a great question from Lena and
25:44she's asking some really important
25:46question because the shaping and
25:48formation of of Christian love is of
25:51course at the center of what it means to
25:53be a human being and a Christian so um
25:57you know if as Paul writes in 1
25:59Corinthians 13 you know if we speak with
26:02the tongues of men which means Latin
26:06Greek French German English and even
26:11angels whatever it is that they speak
26:12but have not love um it profits us
26:14nothing and if we can if we can even
26:16fathom all Mysteries and knowledge and
26:18have not love it doesn't profit us a
26:21thing without love we become just clever
26:24Devils as Lewis said so we could study
26:27the liberal arts and this was of course
26:29a problem in the Greek and Roman period
26:31with without Christ the logos
26:34infusing um all of the liberal arts and
26:37giving them their purpose and
26:39trajectory
26:41um they just led to Pride and despair
26:45and this is what um David Hicks points
26:47out in his book norms and nobility that
26:50the pagans were beginning to wear out
26:52they they could not they could not
26:54attain their ideal of ER or excellence
26:58and Chesterton writes about this too
26:59that Christ comes in the fullness of
27:01time when paganism was was suffering
27:04from weariness and fatigue because all
27:06of the great ideals had not been
27:08realized and so you have a you know you
27:11have kind of a some stoicism and
27:12cynicism beginning to to uh grow in in
27:17Pagan culture and Christ comes and he
27:19comes as that ideal he becomes the ER he
27:22becomes the ideal man but he's a man
27:24that actually walked Among Us he's not
27:27um you know some abstract ideal that was
27:29only represented in sculpture and
27:31literature he actually walked Among Us
27:34so he comes at this this wonderful time
27:37to say to all of the pagans here is the
27:41man that you that you need to be and
27:44here is Grace and here is forgiveness
27:47and here is agape love and it really
27:51completed Pagan longing and this is why
27:54so many pagans became Christians I think
27:56even even eventually the educated
27:59classes um you know one in one place
28:01chesterton's arguing with someone who
28:03says you ought to um we ought to return
28:05to Pagan culture and chesterson saysure
28:09let's all become pagans they all became
28:13Christians so love is is at the center
28:16of what we do and it has to be at the
28:18center of the renewing of the tradition
28:19so how to form it well I think it's I
28:23hate to be just pastoral and spiritual
28:25here but it's repentance you know we and
28:28individually we need to repent
28:30individually we need to be meditating on
28:31these things seeking these things you
28:33know memorizing and praying through um
28:36Psalm 1 um and 1 Corinthians 13 how do
28:40we become the blessed man Psalm 112 is
28:43another great Psalm about this um we
28:46should be praying through the Psalms we
28:48should be engaged in those spiritual
28:50disciplines that have been passed down
28:51to us in the church that are regarded as
28:54making holy men and women if we're not
28:58um doing those things making to speak in
29:01reformational terms making use of the
29:03means of
29:05Grace going where the the wind blows
29:07where the spirit blows which is of
29:09course corporate worship the sacraments
29:12um meditating uh uh on on God's word and
29:17repenting I mean that's how love is
29:19formed so there's a pastoral Dimension
29:21to classical Christian education isn't
29:23there uh we just can't escape this and
29:26if we if we make
29:28if we make the classical tradition too
29:31much a an abstract academic
29:34one um we start sliding off of the rails
29:38of of keeping it a Christian classical
29:41tradition which means all of the
29:43spiritual disciplines all of ecclesial
29:46life mentorship apprenticeship
29:48discipleship the contemplative life have
29:51to be present so I would say to Lena you
29:54know where's how is how is how are
29:57spiritual disciplines in your home um
30:00what about your own contemplative life
30:02are you like the blessed man in Psalm 1
30:05who meditates on scripture day and night
30:08are you memorizing and Gathering into
30:10your own soul the things that are true
30:12good and beautiful to contemplate them
30:15not to just put them in your your
30:18toolbox purely for utilitarian means
30:21like to make yourself better at X or
30:23better at y certainly that happens but
30:26again you can be you can be very clever
30:29and still be of no use in the Kingdom
30:32because God will oppose the proud he
30:34gives grace to the humble and we find
30:38this so This relates and I'm sorry I'm
30:40going on about this but I guess I should
30:43just finish with
30:44this um the classical tradition says
30:46that we need to develop um educational
30:50virtues and the the the the educational
30:53virtues sometimes are called student
30:54virtues or intellectual virtues or
30:56always start with love and because the
30:58chief virtues are virtues in any
31:00Endeavor so so love and humility have to
31:04be present in the student for him to be
31:06a Christian Student he has to love that
31:09which is true good and beautiful which
31:11is to love God himself because anything
31:13that's true good and beautiful is
31:14connected to God who is the truth who is
31:17goodness and who is the source of all
31:21Beauty
31:23so and then humility just means um
31:26seeing yourself as you as you you really
31:28should uh you know in right perspective
31:31and that and humility comes from being
31:32in the presence of
31:34greatness uh and that means being in the
31:36presence of God so when James says you
31:39know um humble yourself in the presence
31:42of God or before the face of God and
31:44he's quoting the Old Testament humility
31:47comes when we're in the presence of God
31:50you don't go out and make yourself
31:52humble you get in the presence of God
31:56and you find the right
31:58disposition and you don't even think of
32:00it as humility because you're just
32:02filled with thoughts of God and his
32:05goodness and so forth so uh really the
32:08forming of loves is is there's it's just
32:12that's now you're talking about the
32:13Christian faith the way loves are
32:16formed are based on being in being led
32:20uh by by God's spirit and his word to
32:23understand the world rightly so that we
32:25might properly order our loves cultivate
32:29our affections to have the proper love
32:31and respect for various manifestations
32:34of God in truth goodness and Beauty in
32:36the
32:36world so the shortcut is the long way
32:41the shortcut is daily repentance um
32:44asking God for illumination and
32:46Direction meditating on his word um you
32:49know Thomas Aquin has had a prayer
32:51before he would begin each each each
32:53day's study it was called a studium in
32:57which he asks God to direct his day to
33:00to illumin him to bring uh to give him
33:02capacity to understand and to to
33:04remember to guide him in the beginning
33:07of its Work Direct its progress and to
33:10bring it to completion um and he was
33:13basically orienting his life on a daily
33:15basis to love God through scholarly
33:20work
33:22so I wish I could be pithier than that
33:25David and Lena but you know I think it
33:27just it keeps coming back to those
33:30fundamental calls to the Christian
33:34to to repent and love and and to turn
33:37towards
33:38God to do
33:41that and it seems like if we want to as
33:44she puts it enculturate or or help our
33:46students form their loves than
33:48being uh uh worthy of imitation or
33:52modeling that for them has to be the
33:55first place we start is that am I again
33:57am I with you there yeah absolutely I
34:00mean uh the
34:03teacher has to embody any virtue that he
34:06hopes to pass on to a student you know
34:09Jesus in Luke 6 says um when a student's
34:12been fully trained you'll be like his
34:13teacher so our kids are going to become
34:15like us but we ought not to forget that
34:17we have become like our
34:19teachers and you know after 20 years of
34:22being in a different educational
34:25system we have we we ought not to
34:28neglect we ought not
34:32to assume that we have cast it all
34:36off it's worth asking ourselves in what
34:39way am I still like my
34:41teachers um are there some hidden
34:44assumptions and and maybe some practices
34:46to which I am blind that are still
34:48present in my teaching even when I'm
34:50working very hard and consciously to be
34:52a classical
34:53educator um there are many ways that I
34:55think uh other assump and practices have
34:58been smuggled into our own teaching and
35:02it's hard for us to see them because
35:05it's been so much a part of our lives
35:07for so long so that means uh having
35:10conversation with others and continually
35:12thinking about this and asking God for
35:14wisdom but we have become like our
35:16teachers and we think in America that we
35:18can kind of franchise something and that
35:20if I if I turn to this new paradigm of
35:22being a classical educator well in six
35:24weeks I'll be doing I'll be doing
35:26classical Christian education just the
35:28way it should be done well no you'll
35:31probably you'll probably still be doing
35:33a lot of worksheets and assessments
35:35using grade the gr same grading system
35:37that's come to us not from the classical
35:39system but from the modern system you'll
35:41probably use a lot of modernistic
35:43progressive techniques without even
35:45being aware of
35:47it so um you're right when you to
35:49highlight modeling and imitation is
35:51being critical pedagogical tools um we
35:55teach by
35:56Contagion kids are going to pick up and
35:59catch things and um you know teaching is
36:03well over 50%
36:06nonverbal um it's not the didactic mode
36:09it's personal it's the it's the it's the
36:12physical what we do with our bodies is
36:13important as
36:15well so if we're not modeling the
36:17spiritual disciplines ourselves then how
36:19how will our students pick up on it so
36:22many ways this can happen as you start
36:24thinking about it uh but I know of
36:25families for example that every time
36:27they study scripture they may light a
36:30candle as a way of
36:32symbolizing their request that God would
36:35be present to
36:37illumin and you know that helps form
36:41love it helps embody body the study of
36:44scripture um there's other ways of Music
36:50art surroundings the way you talk
36:53there's the number of things come to
36:55bear that might help form loves that
36:57would would imitate and
37:00embody um love for the truth goodness
37:03and Beauty that's before us um how about
37:06a prayer how about a prayer that's
37:09meaningful for the beginning of our
37:12day um where we we truly ask God to be
37:15present and bless what about proverbs 2
37:18which says um unless we cry out for
37:21wisdom and search for it as hidden
37:22treasure as gold and silver we're not
37:24going to get
37:25it Proverbs 2 is a great passage to
37:28meditate on in this in terms of
37:30formation
37:31because it essentially says that until
37:34the student himself cries out for wisdom
37:37he's not going to get it so if that's
37:40the
37:41case what's it what's what should I be
37:43doing as a
37:45teacher it seems to me I should
37:47be asking my son or daughter to be
37:51asking God for wisdom because until he
37:54seeks he won't be he won't find he has
37:57to seek seek I can't seek for him he
38:01must seek he must cry out for wisdom and
38:05that's when it comes so if I have a
38:07student who I can make go through hoops
38:08because I'm using the carrot and the
38:09stick we might call that education but
38:12he's not going to grow in wisdom which
38:14is one of the ultimate aims of classical
38:15education the only way he's going to
38:17grow in wisdom is when he says I want it
38:20and starts crying out to the source of
38:22all wisdom for it other than that it
38:25doesn't really come now I'm not saying
38:28it's formulaic and that you can just say
38:29well now Johnny why don't you ask God
38:31for wisdom and it will happen but you
38:33see it changes the orientation of our
38:36education where that becomes an issue it
38:38becomes something we discuss whereas
38:41we're trying to cultivate these
38:43virtues um you know we're praying about
38:45it we're looking for ways of modeling it
38:48um but that has to happen so
38:50that uh there is I don't think there is
38:53really a formula there's not a lesson
38:55plan that you can really just plug in
38:56there's no plug plug andplay method that
38:58is going to ensure that your kids are
39:00formed by Christian
39:03love but there are practices that we
39:05know we should be engaging
39:08in I suppose praying for them should be
39:11high on the
39:13list um we only have a couple minutes
39:16left yeah and there's a couple more
39:18questions at least one more really good
39:20question I'd like to get to um this
39:22one's a little longer so bear with me as
39:24I as I read it somewhat word for word
39:26here because think that it's getting on
39:28something that I think a lot of people
39:30uh struggle with and this is from Angela
39:33and she says how do I know when my
39:35children are ready for the great books
39:37how do I help them get and and how do I
39:39help them get the most out of the things
39:40they read coming to the classical World
39:42from a very agrarian life I have a hard
39:44time integrating the two I agree with
39:46education being the cultivation of
39:48wisdom and virtue but it takes time to
39:50cultivate the Earth too and can the two
39:52really go together can I actually give
39:54my children the classical education if I
39:56only have four or five hours a day for
39:58them to vote to devote to their studies
40:01um she asks uh from Charlotte Mason to
40:04statford cicott to Lee Borton to Andrew
40:06Kern there are many different
40:07perspectives on what is most important
40:10so how does someone like me uh sort it
40:12all out and she states that she feels
40:14unqualified to make good judgments about
40:16these things because um she's afraid
40:19that as she's learning things she's
40:21giving her children um the education
40:24inside out and backwards and and she
40:26wants to avoid the this kind of
40:27fragmented approach so she wants to know
40:30how she can avoid that but also wants to
40:32know does it matter um so there's a lot
40:35there you could talk about the great
40:37books but I think there's there's some
40:39deeper things being asked there as well
40:42maybe larger things that might be worth
40:44approaching so um I'll let you take over
40:46from there we have maybe 10 or 12
40:48minutes to answer this question I'm
40:50gonna grab a book here
40:54perfect what is your name again Angela
40:58Angela yeah Angela that's you know
41:00you're you're just asking profoundly
41:03important questions that are hard to
41:06answer right away when you first come
41:07into this tradition so it's just good to
41:09be
41:10patient um and you know as we've been
41:13saying uh classical the classical
41:16tradition of education is multifaceted
41:18it's like a cathedral with many portals
41:20in and when when one person is talking
41:23about one facet with excitement
41:26sometimes you might feel like well
41:27that's really what it's in in the view
41:30of this person what classical education
41:32is but because it's multifaceted it's
41:35it's not just one thing it's several
41:37things at once and so that makes it a
41:39little harder to kind of grasp like how
41:42will you grasp the Metropolitan Museum
41:44of Art or or you know the Cathedral at
41:48notredam um it's going to take some time
41:51but that's part of its beauty that's
41:52part of its excitement is that it's an
41:54ongoing adventure of Discovery and you
41:56never really
41:59fully get it all it's too big for anyone
42:02in one lifetime to get it all there's
42:04too many great books you can't read all
42:06of the great books and really digest
42:08them in one lifetime so swallow take a
42:11deep breath that's what it is it's
42:14bigger than you um they used to you know
42:17joke about you know maybe some a scholar
42:19like arasmus or Dido being the last
42:23person who could read all of the great
42:25books um you know there's just there's
42:27too many there's it's just bigger is
42:29that big so that's the first thing to do
42:32is just to say you know kind of start
42:34your little 12-step support group you
42:36know my name is Christopher and the
42:39classical tradition is bigger than I can
42:41ever grasp um that's okay so
42:47uh experience some of the maybe the
42:50disappointment but also the relief that
42:51comes with that realization having said
42:54that there are some ways in there's the
42:57the this is one book that I know David
42:59and and Andrew and I appreciate written
43:02by two classical Educators um ravie Jane
43:05and Kevin Clark called the liberal arts
43:07tradition a Christian philosophy of of a
43:09philosophy of Christian classical
43:11education uh it does a decent job of I
43:13think um showing you the history and
43:16philosophy there are other books but
43:18this one is a new one that is trying to
43:20answer some of your questions and give
43:21you the big picture it's also heavily
43:24footnoted so you can see of some other
43:26books to read read so you could take a
43:28book like that or you know we've cited
43:30David Hicks norms and nobility a more
43:33academic book but very very rich to
43:36understand how all of these things may
43:37fit together but to answer your question
43:39about being ready for the great books
43:41and then maybe your question about
43:42virtue and wisdom how do you know when
43:44your kids are ready for the great
43:46books well um first of all you want them
43:49to be good readers so if they're if
43:51they're reading well um um you know just
43:55you pay attention to the the the reading
43:56level
43:57and making sure that they're not going
43:59to be so frustrated by giving them a
44:01book that's beyond their ability to
44:03really read well secondly know this that
44:06most of the great books not all but most
44:08of the great books are elegant in their
44:10Simplicity you know they're not you
44:13might think a great book is going to be
44:14a really arduous difficult and complex
44:17book but but they're not this is one of
44:20the reasons they're great books is that
44:22sometimes the truth is complicated but
44:24sometimes the truth sometimes goodness
44:26and Beauty come to with a kind of simple
44:28Elegance so for example to read Plato's
44:30dialogues you'll find that you know
44:32junior high high school kids can read
44:34those dialogues and be entertained by
44:36them enjoy them there may be places
44:38where it gets a little tough but they're
44:40they're accessible um so you might be
44:43surprised to find that um the great
44:47books are not always really hard hard
44:50reads they might stimulate your thinking
44:52and Imagination they might they might be
44:54hard in the sense that now you're really
44:56wrestling with ideas but they're not
44:58usually hard in the sense that boy I
45:00can't even understand what he's
45:02saying if that makes sense so um another
45:06way of saying the great books include so
45:09much different kinds of literature that
45:11it's hard to generalize about the great
45:13books per se so we might want to
45:15categorize and say you know when is my
45:17son ready for some of the great books of
45:20of English literature when is my son or
45:22daughter ready for some of the great
45:23books of of philosophy when is my how
45:27about some of the great playwrights or
45:29some of the great
45:30historians um you know I think you could
45:34probably read history earlier and you
45:37could read certain kinds of plays
45:39earlier maybe some of the philosophy
45:41might you might want to wait so I would
45:43find a good guide who can help you to
45:46think through not just the great books
45:47as one big um collection but divide them
45:51into various subcategories and realize
45:55that there are some great books that you
45:56can you can start earlier than others
45:59and David I'm sure you have some views
46:01of this as well so um I would look I
46:05would probably start ranking great books
46:07maybe on you know one two and three
46:09level what great books are my could I
46:12start reading say the junior high level
46:14what great books you might could might
46:15might you even begin to read um in Upper
46:19Elementary School what do uper you know
46:21great certainly great poems uh great
46:23poetry that that be read some great
46:26short stories
46:27um take for example just uh uh eso's
46:30fables certainly those can be called
46:33great a part of the great books and that
46:35you can read earlier
46:38on so that's kind of a Dodge because it
46:40would really take uh we would really
46:42want to take a look at a list of books
46:44and start to to to subcategorize them I
46:48guess finally I would just say um is
46:50your son or daughter do they have a
46:53thirst for engaging in convers ation
46:57about important ideas often the great
47:00books are described as containing the
47:01great
47:02conversation so uh it's a time to start
47:05talking about some of the really
47:07important ideas you might want to get
47:09that set um the great books of Western
47:11Civilization published by the
47:13Encyclopedia Britannica um you can
47:15usually find it online for a couple
47:16dollars a book because people are
47:18getting rid of them like a set of golf
47:19clubs that someone gave them that
47:20they've never used um and it has a
47:23list the 54 volume one yeah
47:28yeah you got one handy he's looking over
47:30at them yeah we have I mean the whole
47:33I there's a few missing from the set but
47:36there's it's up there on the shelves
47:37here Cersei yeah and one thing to be
47:40aware of any set is like the English
47:42translations of that set are not always
47:44great now if it's they were written in
47:46English like Shakespeare doesn't matter
47:48but some of the that set's somewhat old
47:50and some of the translations aren't the
47:52best like the translations say of Dante
47:54but um it's still a good place to start
47:58now let me try to answer um your
48:00question about virtue and
48:02wisdom um I think these things are like
48:04twin sisters you know they come together
48:07you you don't find wisdom without virtue
48:09or virtue without
48:10wisdom um I would recommend one book
48:14that about virtue that I really like
48:16called um the intellectual life its
48:19Spirit conditions and methods by AG
48:21celange it's it's not an easy read but
48:24it's but it's well it's accessible to
48:26any adult it was translated from the
48:27French into the English but kind of
48:30riffing off of aquinus cange says here's
48:32what it means to acquire
48:34virtue um so we we need to understand
48:39again today what virtue is and how it
48:41relates to education what what is a
48:43virtue what are the virtues we should
48:46know about that tradition another book
48:48is James sire's book habits of the Mind
48:51in which he says I'm indebted to cange
48:54in many ways and then to talk about
48:57wisdom um you know wisdom is a big thing
49:01that's kind of the ultimate goal for
49:02anybody to be fully
49:06humanized um I just wouldn't see wisdom
49:10being in in a in any kind of
49:12confrontation with virtue they really
49:15are the same in fact if you just PS
49:18pursued cultivating virtues in your son
49:21or daughter you're cultivating wisdom
49:25wisdom isn't something you go take a
49:26short course in you don't just acquire
49:28it by by doing a set of
49:31formula it's it's it's a result of a
49:34life well lived over time and when you
49:36get it you don't really know it when you
49:38get it you don't talk about it and when
49:41you get it to the degrees you get it you
49:43just H you Hunger for More and you're
49:46not really cognizant you're more
49:48cognizant the wise man is always more
49:50cognizant of his lack of wisdom than his
49:53possession of it so that therefore it
49:57relates to the you know the virtue of
49:59humility so I would just focus on um on
50:02the virtues formation form form forming
50:05loves seeking truth goodness and Beauty
50:08if you're doing those things with a kind
50:10of free hand and with some delight and
50:15joy and daily repentance it's going to
50:18happen and as you said David it's it's
50:21probably the most important thing a
50:22teacher or a parent can do is to model
50:24that because it's it has to be seen in
50:27order to be
50:29believed you know you to hear a lecture
50:31or even a conversation like this where
50:33we talk about it is valuable but only so
50:36valuable what's what's really valuable
50:38is to see a life live that is that's
50:39already characterized by some wisdom and
50:42virtue and that's when Mom and Dad have
50:43it when your teacher has it when when
50:46other students have it in various
50:48degrees it's
50:50contagious so we have to start thinking
50:53of Education as you know along this
50:55apprenticeship model mentorship model
50:58discipleship model and not
51:01just the the transmission of
51:05facts and texts the texts have a place
51:10but even the text which is a woven woven
51:13a book of woven ideas is is to kind of
51:16weave us and to help shape us we are to
51:19be our own text where we are being
51:23shaped you know we are we are Peter
51:25calls us we're living
51:27stones but we're also we're also tablets
51:33Proverbs 2 again we're to write things
51:35on the tablets of our
51:37hearts so that we become our own tablets
51:41or texts we
51:42become um you know kind of walking
51:46walking woven text filled with truth
51:50goodness and Beauty so that that model
51:52that Paradigm if we start taking it
51:54seriously uh the practices I think will
51:56begin to suggest themselves and I bet
51:58there's per you know viewers already
52:00thinking well what do I do on Monday
52:01morning that's a great question but it's
52:04also important that you think about
52:06these ideas and the the practices that
52:09they they clearly
52:14suggest I wish I could be more practical
52:16about that but I think th those are the
52:18ideas you I could we could talk about
52:19some practices but I think the practices
52:21really do start to flow out of a
52:23meditation of these
52:25ideas yeah
52:27well we always say around here we have a
52:28saying um probably coined by I think
52:31coined by my dad that um there's nothing
52:33more practical than the truth um so well
52:38uh we are about out of time we're going
52:39on an hour now so I just want to say
52:41thank you for for joining me uh Dr parin
52:44uh thank you to everyone who's been
52:45watching this and um if you have any
52:48other questions um you can shoot them
52:51over to our over to us on the website or
52:54via email or social media and I'm sure
52:55that Dr parin will be happy to field
52:58some of those questions for you as well
53:00um Dr par anything anything you want to
53:03uh to share with us tell us what you're
53:04doing over there at capap or anything
53:05you're working on that you'd like to to
53:07talk about well let's see um like you um
53:12a lot of pots on the stove
53:15um just a delight to be a part of of
53:18this classical Christian
53:20Renewal um well we've got um a number of
53:23little guides let me show you one or two
53:26if I have them oh I guess they're
53:28downstairs but we we we're working on
53:30some small guide books uh for example we
53:33have a about 60-page book on Plato the
53:36great educator CS Lewis an apologist for
53:40um for
53:41Education we have a little guide on
53:43Truth goodness Beauty that's coming out
53:45so we're we're wanting to release um
53:47small little booklets that will kind of
53:49covers will kind of look like this but
53:52you've seen the isi student guide books
53:53maybe they're kind of like that only
53:55just focusing on some of these great
53:56thinkers and classical education
53:59digestible little
54:00pamphlets we're working on that and
54:02we're working on some interactive U or
54:04enhancing our student um practice site
54:07called Adventure
54:08Land um and then uh boy we just released
54:12our last um the last book in our upper
54:15upper school Latin curriculum called
54:17Latin alive it's a reader which features
54:20uh 32 different readings that start with
54:23Cicero around ad50 and go um or before
54:27and all the way to um uh like 1687 Isaac
54:31Newton's um prinkipia
54:35Mathematica so yeah a few other a few
54:38other book projects going on but that's
54:40the news uh from Hill
54:44Pennsylvania and and where can people go
54:47to learn more uh just our uh come to our
54:50website at Classical Academic press.com
54:52and you know under various product
54:55categories pretty easy to navigate and
54:56find some of our some of the new books
54:59that we're releasing and of course like
55:01you traveling a lot going to these
55:03conferences yep and uh your wife
55:07Christine will be speaking at our
55:08conference in about a month time now so
55:10we're very excited about that yes I I um
55:14I'm so excited about the imitation um uh
55:17title uh or theme I really wish I could
55:20be there but as you know I'm I'm leading
55:21a trip with the society for classical
55:23learning uh taking 16 students to um to
55:27Italy so only Italy trumped the Cersei
55:31conference otherwise I I would be there
55:34I will miss it a lot I feel like I feel
55:37like that's appropriate but I will let
55:39you go answer that phone and uh we will
55:42talk with you soon thanks thanks so much
55:43again you're welcome David have a great
55:45day you too

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