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Classical Education for Adults: Book List & Reading Recommendations — Transcript

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0:00I think I'm going to read brothers
0:02carame by DS. No, don't do it. You know,
0:05did read read first maybe or something.
0:08Welcome to classical etc. You're in the
0:10studio with Memorialia Press. Hello and
0:14welcome to another episode of classical
0:16etc. I'm Jessica Abboud and I am here
0:18with the chor. Glad to have everybody
0:20back. Martin, Tanya, and Paul.
0:24Yeah, quiet morning. We're here
0:27recording this in the morning and it's
0:28early. Well, today we're going to cover
0:31what everybody's reading. As usual,
0:34we're going to answer a listener
0:35question and then back to books. We're
0:37going to talk about some book lists
0:39because we get that question often and
0:41we wanted to just categorically talk
0:43about our book lists. Um, but what are
0:47we reading for fun?
0:49Uh, for fun, uh, I just picked up a book
0:54Kathy Becker gave me, which was a
0:56compendium of Louis Lamore short
0:59stories,
1:01which is just nice as you go to bed.
1:05Mhm. You know, 20 pager. Um, you can
1:08start it and finish it. You can start it
1:10and finish it. That's right. It's very
1:12nice for fun. That's what I'm doing. But
1:14I've actually I'm getting more in uh my
1:17wife and I we got rid of all social
1:18media on our phones and so now it's like
1:21you wake up and we're like we're not
1:23going to look at our phones for a
1:24second. You mean there's not going to be
1:25any more pictures of cute animals? Oh
1:28no, actually actually no. On on a farm
1:31you can do you can post without like you
1:34can have the business version so you can
1:36post that doesn't give you the option to
1:38scroll so you can't consume. So Sarah's
1:41doing that, but you will still keep
1:44seeing spring on the farm. We got to see
1:46I love I love the pictures of the
1:48animals. Um but it does mean that like
1:52this morning I got up and I was like
1:53well I got 15 more minutes. I normally
1:55do I'm going to sit down and read. So
1:57that's nice. It's very nice to you know
2:00normally this time of year I have no
2:01time to read because any any like
2:04downtime I'm just like crashing on the
2:06couch and scrolling and scrolling and
2:08I'm It's easier than picking up a book.
2:10Yes. But now that I'm I'm making a
2:11priority of having like a fun book that
2:14at least I'm picking up a book if it's
2:16not, you know, something that's hugely
2:20mentally taxing. Yeah. There's
2:22sometimes, especially with the kind of
2:23work that we do, there are times when I
2:26come home from work and I couldn't read
2:29like the name of the rose that takes
2:31that has so much philosophy in it and it
2:33really takes my brain power and I don't
2:35have any left. So, at that point, I pick
2:38up Mick Herren and read a spine novel.
2:42But I am reading both of them at the
2:44same time, which does make me nervous. I
2:47don't like that. But, but I'm doing it
2:49because speaking of because I also have
2:51recognized that there are times when my
2:54brain just doesn't want to I just need
2:57and I felt I've felt guilty about that,
3:00you know, like I should be reading
3:02something that is going to edify me.
3:06rather than just entertain me. But I'm
3:09I'm trying to throw that guilt off
3:11because really you do need, you know, I
3:14could be watching TV and that would be I
3:17don't feel guilty about watching TV
3:19rather than reading an edifying academic
3:23book, right? But for some reason, I feel
3:28guilty about picking up a book that's
3:30not that's just pure entertainment. So,
3:32I'm trying to I'm trying to change. Yes.
3:36Mentally. I'm trying to I'm trying I
3:38need a list uh speaking of book lists, I
3:41need a list of adventure books. Have you
3:44read all the Sabatini? You love
3:46Sabatini. I haven't. But the problem is
3:48it's really hard to like
3:50go find those online like used books.
3:54Like if you go to used bookstore, that's
3:56something I'll always look for, right?
3:58But it's, you know, I I got online and I
4:00was like, let me find all the Sabbatini
4:02books. And really, they're just selling
4:04like Captain Blood and Scaramoosh and
4:06Oh, that's terrible. The Seahawk. Those
4:08are like the three that you find all the
4:10time. And there's a whole other slew of
4:13them and you got to you got to go into
4:15used bookstores and try, right? But then
4:16also like I need I need to just create a
4:19compendium of authors like him that then
4:23anytime I go to a used bookstore I could
4:24find them because I don't I don't want
4:26the modern stuff right but I you know
4:30which every once in a while I try you
4:32know but I do like good adventure
4:33stories. Have you read Horatio
4:34Hornblower? Oh no that's a good one to
4:37read that book. Oh yeah
4:39absolutely and it's a whole series. Yes.
4:42Yes, we have because it's on our summer
4:44reading list now for I think rising
4:47eighth grade students and I Cheryl had
4:51it on there for years and I was like
4:53yuck yuck yuck who wants to read a book
4:55about a boat um and people on the boat
5:00um but then when I read so I thought
5:01well I better read this because we're
5:03putting it on the summer reading list
5:04and again I felt obligated
5:07um and it's just wonderful and it's a
5:10great book for rising young men.
5:14Absolutely. But it's got I mean like I
5:16mean that's why you recommend girls.
5:18Yeah. Right. I see a little gray there.
5:21Well, and just so people know the um
5:24those books are loosely based on the
5:27life of uh Lord Nelson, right? The hero
5:31of the battle of Trafalgar who dies
5:34right as the battle is won. M um and
5:37it's loosely based on his life uh as he
5:40makes his way up through the ranks of
5:44the Royal Navy. And the books are not
5:47written in the chronological order like
5:50Mr. Midshipman Hornblower, which is the
5:52first chronologically is not was not the
5:55first written. It was actually written
5:56later. So there's there's two ways to to
5:58read them. I I I think uh I think Mr.
6:02Midshipman Hornblower if you're going to
6:03start on something is a great one to
6:05start with. Um and it's probably it's
6:08probably upstairs.
6:10Yeah, probably. And and but I I his
6:13writing style, you know, people like is
6:14it Michael O'Brien? Uh no, Patrick
6:18Patrick. Patrick O'Brien. And I tried to
6:20read the first one and it's nothing like
6:22um Hornblower like the Hornblower books.
6:25I think Wendel Barry really liked
6:27Patrick O'Brien at a time at a point he
6:29was reading Yeah. a lot of him. I've
6:31never tried it, but I just not am not a
6:33water person. But now I've got a new
6:34Moby Pig because you like to go to the
6:38beach and sit on the sand and look at
6:40it. Okay, you got to remember that a lot
6:41of these sailors at that time were not
6:43water people either. A lot of lot of
6:44them couldn't swim and the food, you
6:47know, worms crawling around in your food
6:48and just not, you know, we have stowaway
6:51as a read aloud in fifth grade. Oh,
6:54there is a great There's a lot of those.
6:56There's one story and I think it's in
6:58Mr. Shipman Hornblower.
7:00um where they're carrying a cargo of
7:03rice and they get in I think they get
7:05into a battle or something and one of
7:07the cannonballs comes in near the
7:09waterline when of course as as every
7:13cook knows uh rice
7:15expands and so he's trying to get to the
7:19place he's trying to get to. They I
7:21think the ship was they had taken the
7:22ship from the French or something.
7:23They're trying to get back to England.
7:25Well, water's coming in there now and
7:27the rice is expanding and all of a
7:29sudden these rats start coming out from
7:31underneath the ship because there's
7:32they're just being squeezed out and I
7:34mean and it is one of the most exciting
7:37stories. Yeah. It's it's it's very good.
7:40And you know Tanya has a thing with rice
7:42and and rats. Yes. I don't like either
7:45one. Well, on a ship particularly in
7:47those days that's what you're gonna ask.
7:49I mean I don't like very his writing is
7:52very vivid and concrete and and just
7:55everything that makes a good writer.
7:56He's got
7:58We are way off. We are. Are you reading
8:00anything for fun? You're reading two at
8:02the same time. Right. Yes. A M Karen
8:04book because I'm in that mode right now
8:07and I'm reading The Name of the Rose. So
8:10I'm doing both.
8:12Uh I'm reading um a book right now that
8:15we're looking at for Parnassis Prize
8:18Inclusion and I I I'm going to vote for
8:20it. Uh which is Close Reading by John
8:24Gillery. Um and and there's this term
8:27close reading and it gets used by the
8:29the old new critics of the mid middle of
8:33the uh 20th century who really dominated
8:36how we how we read and you know literary
8:39criticism and all this stuff. And so um
8:42I kind of have read a lot about that
8:44anyway. So I was I was interested in
8:46close reading was one of the things they
8:47re they
8:49uh that is associated with the new
8:51critical movement. And so there's
8:53basically what is it? And there's
8:56different differing definitions and he's
8:58trying to kind of put it together into a
8:59coherent uh way of reading. And then I'm
9:03uh I've gotten back to Portrait of a
9:05Lady and I'm just really enjoying that
9:07right now. uh James with with Henry
9:11James every word is the precise right
9:15word to to say what he's saying. Did he
9:19edit and edit and edit? I don't know. I
9:21I don't know anything about how he wrote
9:23his books, but they're all that way and
9:26and the characters are so finely drawn,
9:28but there's things that are always kept
9:30from you as the reader as he's talking
9:34about somebody. You know, you mentioned
9:37Henry James and I I it brought something
9:41to mind where I just recently read
9:42something that was critical of him
9:45and I think it was out of I'll take my
9:47stand, the 12 Southern Agrarians. I
9:49think it was in an essay. I'm going to
9:50have to go back and find that. People
9:51are critical of him, but I read some um
9:54somebody else that was critical, another
9:56author that was critical of him. I
9:58didn't slow down long enough to figure
10:00out why, but I did it just when I read
10:04it, I was like, "Oh, that's
10:04interesting." and just kept going. But
10:06I'm going to have to go back and figure
10:07out why now. Well, I think you know the
10:10he he doesn't he doesn't tell you
10:13everything his own characters are
10:15thinking, right? And so there's still
10:18this mystery he leaves for you to figure
10:22out. But there's something about that
10:24that's I need to go back and reread
10:28Portrait of a Lady. Yeah. Well, it's,
10:30you know, it's about a lady
10:31who who makes a bad bad
10:35marriage, and I don't know what the
10:37consequences of it are yet, but uh
10:40somebody uh friend of mine uh had had
10:44read it recently, and we were talking
10:45about it, and she said she said, "I I'm
10:48really mad at Henry Jane. I'm really mad
10:50at Isabelle, the chief character, for
10:52doing what she did because she you love
10:54this character. She's a wonderful
10:57person. Right. There's something about
11:00her decision, you know. That's like that
11:02reminds me of the tenant of Wildfell
11:04Hall. That is the um thesis of that book
11:08as well. Yeah. Yeah. And just the plight
11:12of woman not being able in that time to
11:14do anything. I mean, you're just stuck
11:16with what is an awful human being. Your
11:19lot in life. Yes.
11:22Yes. Well, maybe on to more uplifting
11:25things. Answering a listener question.
11:28Uh, like I said earlier, we get a lot of
11:31questions about book lists and Heather
11:35wrote us and she asks, "Where do I, as
11:39an adult who didn't have a classical
11:40education, start? I could work my way
11:43through the elementary literature
11:45material that MP supplies. Or perhaps
11:48that would give me a good foundation. I
11:50feel so very far behind where I could
11:51be." And then she says that she'll be
11:54homeschooling her four grandchildren and
11:56she feels unprepared as far as
11:57literature goes. But she knows that if
11:59she's learning along with her grandkids
12:01that she'll eventually get to the level
12:03of Anakarina or Plato. Um she knows she
12:07says after all I've heard on the podcast
12:09that it's possible to learn Latin as I
12:11teach it beginning with Prima. Yeah,
12:13that's all exactly right. Yeah, she
12:16doesn't need to feel unprepared because
12:18she can especially I mean four
12:21grandchildren that's a lot.
12:24So, it's a lot of different things to
12:25read and chances are she's not going to
12:27be able to read them all. Mhm.
12:30Um and so she's going to have to pick
12:33and choose. There is no way that you
12:35could read if if unless they're doing
12:37some things
12:39together. Would you say yes, read
12:42alongside or even a little bit behead
12:44ahead of your grandchildren as they're
12:47working through the curriculum, but then
12:48would you pair that reading with
12:51anything else? Something that we
12:53recommend for people starting with
12:55classical education as adults, maybe
12:57like a a book about the framework of
12:59classical education or something else.
13:02Well, sure. I feel like though for I do
13:07think like I was trying to learn the
13:09curriculum that Cheryl had chosen, but
13:11she also handed me climbing Parnaces
13:14because she wanted me to understand what
13:15classical education is. I feel like
13:18Heather isn't really asking that
13:20question. I It looks to me like she
13:22knows what it is even though she didn't
13:24get it, but she recognizes what it is.
13:27M. So maybe at this point I would
13:30recommend that she I mean it's sure if
13:33she can get to it, but I would say get
13:36the the
13:38literature especially just get all of
13:41those novels for those four
13:43grandchildren and read them through the
13:46summer which that's not that diff. Just
13:49read through them. Don't study them.
13:52just know where they're going and then
13:56when you go back through them with the
13:58grandchildren then at that point you
14:01know she will be studying them alongside
14:03them. But I really think if you can have
14:06whatever you can get done in the summer
14:07before you start is a huge help. Mhm.
14:11And I think it helped me so much to know
14:14where my students would be at the end of
14:16the
14:18year. Makes sense. Anybody else?
14:23I'm I'm still stuck on Tanya telling our
14:26listener how she should feel, but
14:30um therapy with Tanya. I I got
14:32distracted. Everything else Tanya said
14:33after that, I was just focused on that.
14:36Would you like to help also emotionally?
14:38No. No. I I try not to tell people how
14:41to feel. I Well, I Well, but but she
14:45feels guilty. She feels unprepared. And
14:48I don't think she should feel like that
14:50way. I I I agree with that. I I would
14:52say rather than telling her how she
14:54should feel, I would say that maybe it's
14:56of some comfort that in like the the
15:00lists of books that we we give people, I
15:04think there's there's books on any of
15:07that list except all of us except for
15:09maybe Martin that we haven't read.
15:11That's exactly right.
15:13um you know and the list that I'm
15:16looking at right now has counter monito
15:18and I had to convince Martin to read
15:19that a few years ago right and so
15:23there's and now it's on his list now
15:25it's on the list right and
15:28so I think we just people need to
15:31realize that these lists are
15:33aspirational if you read those books
15:35they will be helpful but they are not
15:37meant to be exhaustive lists plus this
15:41is This comes in stages. So I just
15:45recently did teacher training for a
15:48brand new startup school in Lebanon,
15:51Tennessee called Imago Classical Academy
15:54that has is being started by two former
15:57teachers that were mentored by Cheryl
15:59Low. Wow. So I'm very excited to see
16:02them then come full circle and start
16:04their own school in Tennessee. Um, and I
16:08was and so I had these lists and you
16:11know I'm talking as I talk all the time
16:14about just continuing to educate
16:15yourself being a lifelong learner. But
16:18then for that particular school I had to
16:20say don't do any of this right now.
16:23Learn your curriculum. Just read your
16:26books. But then and we would say that to
16:29any of our new teachers here. But then
16:32now uh I'm starting to get emails from
16:35our teachers who have been teaching for
16:37years who know their curriculum and
16:39they're ready to read the books that
16:42their students are going to um study
16:45later or the books that they have
16:47studied in the past so that they know
16:49the context. So, it really is stages.
16:52And at this point, getting ready to
16:54homeschool four children, I would say
16:57just concentrate on their curriculum.
17:00But that doesn't mean you ever get
17:03finished or never get finished. There's
17:06always more books.
17:08Well, I think you also have to ask the
17:10question, what do well- read people do?
17:15You know, read more. Read more. and but
17:17but what do they read more of? Um
17:20because one of one of the things that I
17:23do because part of learning the canon,
17:27if you want to say that is sort of
17:30following the links, right? So I I'm
17:33reading the Wall Street Journal's review
17:35section every Sunday. It's book reviews.
17:39you know, you don't have time to read as
17:41many books as you would like to read,
17:43but if you don't don't have time to read
17:45them, reading reviews of them is a great
17:48little because it'll bring out things in
17:49the book and you you can determine
17:50whether you want to read it or not,
17:52whatever. Um, and so you're But there's
17:55also references that that book reviewers
18:01um are are making all the time and you
18:05get to learn those because you see
18:06multiple writers who are reviewing books
18:09refer to them and you realize, oh, that
18:10writer is important and then you go try
18:12to find that writer and you know you you
18:14know that. Um, and and also to read
18:17writers who talk about books. I would
18:19strongly recommend reading Joseph
18:21Epstein. Um, Joseph Epstein is probably
18:26our greatest living American writer.
18:30He's an essayist. He doesn't write
18:32novels, he writes essays, but he's
18:33always writing on books and he's he's
18:39read everything and he's read all the
18:41great books and he refers to them when
18:44he's talking about other books. And so
18:47um you can get anything by Joseph
18:49Epstein and and learn about books. If
18:53that's not that's not reading the actual
18:55classics, you need to do that too. That
18:57mean needs to be your main thing and you
18:58need to identify those writers, you
19:00know, Toltoy and Austin and Bronty and
19:02you know um all that but to also read
19:06about them and it just it makes
19:09everything more interesting I think to
19:12know to know more. You know, you get
19:14interested in something when you know
19:15more about it. Sure. And I think that's
19:17a a great process to try to go through.
19:20Well, let's maybe take some categories
19:22of people because we we get the question
19:24about book lists from several different
19:27types of types of questioners. So, we've
19:29got Heather who's starting homeschooling
19:32and that was very helpful to just say,
19:34"Hey, focus major on the majors." Like,
19:37just focus on what your students are
19:39reading. And you touched on teachers
19:42who've had some years of experience in
19:45the classroom and then they kind of get
19:47the breathing room to expand forward or
19:50backward to kind of fill out the
19:52context.
19:54When we think about the person, an adult
19:56who's new to classical education, but
19:58they may not be in a classroom setting,
20:01is there are there a couple books that
20:03you would encourage them to read to
20:06situate themselves in classical
20:09education or they maybe feel like, I'm
20:11new to this. I love what I'm seeing, but
20:14I don't even know where to begin. I'm so
20:16far behind. Well, the other thing you
20:18have to do is um you have to be able to
20:23defend if you're especially if you're
20:25giving if you're going to be a proponent
20:28of classical education, you've got to be
20:30able to defend it. You've got to know
20:32why Latin, why the ancient civilizations
20:34of Greece and Rome. So, I think that's
20:37the first Well, I think there's I I had
20:40made up a classical educators book list,
20:42right? Which we're going to post, right?
20:44Or is it posted somewhere? Is that so?
20:46Which one? That I believe is not posted,
20:48but we will post it. This is your list,
20:50isn't it? Well, that was a that was a
20:52team list. Yeah, right. Oh, school's
20:56division. We work together to put that
20:58together. And this is this is again
21:00these are primary works.
21:03Not all not all. It's because you've got
21:06this is broken down into books about
21:08classical education, great books, other
21:10helpful books about class for classical
21:12educators, other helpful Christian
21:14books, and six modern Christian novels,
21:17right? But I think there's there's
21:19several different kinds of books about
21:21classical education. There's there's the
21:23history of classical education, right?
21:25And you know, Climbing Parnasses, Tracy
21:28Lee Simmons gives some of that in there,
21:31very tailored towards Americans.
21:34Um, and you don't have your list. Do you
21:36have your list? I brought I have it in
21:38my I brought what? I have it on my phone
21:40here. Um, and you know, Edith Hamilton's
21:44books, the Greek way and the Roman way,
21:46which talk about the two cultures on my
21:47list. I have not Oh my gosh, you will
21:49love them. Um, and and then so there's
21:52the history of classical educ, there's
21:54the philosophy of classical education.
21:55Those are different slightly different
21:57kinds of books. So, in defense of
21:58classical education by Livingston is one
22:01of those. Um, Warner Joerger's books.
22:03I've got those all on the list. Also,
22:06the practice.
22:07What does it consist of? Right. Well,
22:10this is mostly by you. What? The
22:13practice. Well, yeah. Catherine. By
22:15Martin Cthine. By Martin Catherine. I
22:17mean, that's the guy you want to read.
22:20Um, and well, I have a book uh which
22:23will come out at one point of all my
22:24essays on classical education over the
22:26years. So, that that will help.
22:28proposal by William
22:31why John William Kilpatrick got it and
22:34then you may have cut off yeah I thought
22:36I had another third fourth category but
22:38I don't think I do okay yeah so those
22:40are four that is four history philosophy
22:43practice how to teach oh no what is yeah
22:47it's three um so those are the three
22:49kinds of the history the philosophy and
22:52the practice um and you want to read
22:55something of all those but particularly
22:57if you're teacher, you're you're
22:58interested in the practice of it. And
23:00okay, I'm always writing stuff on that.
23:02I'm working on some articles on pedigogy
23:03right now. So, that will go in that list
23:06and we will post that list for people
23:08who couldn't write or type that clean it
23:10up. Yes, we will post that. Mine's fine.
23:13I don't know where yours came from.
23:15Mine's good. It was an email.
23:18Is there a book that you would start
23:21with that helped you the most? Well, I
23:24think, you know, if you ask that
23:26question,
23:28um, I really, well, I actually have an
23:31essay on here that would be a short
23:32introduction. Um, the yearnings of the
23:35pre-Christian world by Fulton Sheen,
23:37which we published in the classical
23:39teacher at one point. I think that's a
23:41really great little introd. Yes. on our
23:43website, the yearnings of the
23:45pre-Christian world. Fulton Sheen, who
23:48was a a Catholic bishop, um, and very,
23:52very well educated gentleman. Um, but
23:55after that, I'd say, you know, maybe
23:57just uh Tracy Le Tracy Lee's book,
24:00Climbing Passes, I think, is a great It
24:03is so readable. It really is. He's a
24:05great He's a really good writer. A
24:07really good writer. He's a wordssmith.
24:09He is. So it's not just give he's not
24:11just giving you information. He's doing
24:13it in a way that you know that a
24:15beginner can actually read and
24:16understand. He's a journalist. So he
24:19writes in a journalistic way that you
24:21can really understand.
24:23Yeah. That that's a good place to start.
24:25And the other one that I was thinking of
24:27is if you were to pair that with Cheryl
24:30Schroed Simply Classical. Yes. Because
24:32especially the beginning. Yes. The the
24:35beginning part. Also the the entire book
24:38is that classical education is not just
24:40for you know the hardworking rigorous
24:43student but it's for every child and so
24:45I think actually the the ideals that
24:49show up in climbing Barnacis you pair
24:50that with simply classical and you see
24:52you see that there is this vision
24:56um for everyone I think those that
24:58that's kind of a nice if if you were to
25:00read two books that's what I would do. I
25:02think that's helpful. And if you've read
25:04Climbing Parnasses, which I'm sure a lot
25:06of our listeners have, there's a lot in
25:08this list that they may not have read.
25:09That's right. So, there's plenty more
25:11material to go from. And if you don't
25:13have time for the books, you know, we
25:14have a pamphlet series that you can get
25:17all of our articles from the cataloges
25:19on our website by subject. So, there are
25:22shorter, simpler things that you can do.
25:25And I like Paul how you uh gave the
25:28option of reading something and pairing
25:30with it.
25:32other books because like what we were
25:34talking about before we hit record that
25:35you can layer your reading even though
25:37Tanya I know you don't prefer to. No,
25:39but I do but I do layer it. Yes. Yes.
25:42With because I do need to I need some
25:46relaxation time and some of these books
25:49would be
25:51work, you know, to get through. But it
25:53is, you know, turning myself into a
25:55lifelong learner. And I feel like that's
25:57really important that I keep growing.
26:00And and you know, the more I read, the
26:02older I get, the more I feel like these
26:06books are not about Christianity at all,
26:09but I do feel like they they also work
26:13side by side in my spiritual life,
26:15especially books of fiction, really good
26:17books of fiction. And I think they help
26:20me as a Christian as well to know how to
26:22how to live.
26:27If I look bored. Oh my
26:32I always look this way when you talk.
26:38And Paul the book that you
26:42I I agree with Tanya. just before you
26:44get to your question that some of the
26:46most life-changing books that I have
26:47read have been fiction. Yes. Oh, yeah.
26:50Yeah. You just have to read them that
26:52way as opposed to reading them just as
26:53pure entertainment. Well, can I say
26:55something else too and and that is
26:57because some of these books are hard,
26:59right? Like like you were sort of saying
27:00when I was not listening to you. Okay.
27:02Um
27:04and and uh but but there so if you are
27:09not used to that this kind of literature
27:12this can be really hard and I and I I
27:14think it's actually one way to do that
27:17to get sort of a running start the great
27:19books is to read the books that have
27:23been written for not necessarily
27:26children but young people you know um
27:29you know all those great books you know
27:31Charlotte's Web been Triumph of the Swan
27:33and and and
27:35and Little House in the Prairie and
27:37Heidi just, you know, those those are
27:40great books in and of themselves and you
27:42shouldn't feel guilty um doing that and
27:46taking that. No. And one of the most
27:48popular things we ever get asked for,
27:50especially at conferences, is your list
27:51of essential books for boys and
27:53essential books for girls and adults
27:55take those. They are and we'll post
27:57them. We we can link them in the show
27:59notes, but they are I mean some of them
28:01are Little House in the Big Woods, but
28:03then some of them are Anacarana or So
28:06they go by grade from picture books all
28:10the way through. Oh yeah, you've got War
28:12in Peace on there. So yes, maybe Dick.
28:15Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you because some
28:17people they want to start too hard, you
28:19know. I think I'm going to read Brothers
28:21Karamaz by Dossi. No, don't do it. you
28:24know, did read read Toltoy first maybe
28:27or something. That's where we all had to
28:30start. We had to start You can crash and
28:32burn an of Green Gables. I'm I'm amazed
28:35at the adults in my sphere who had never
28:39read an of Green Gables before, but then
28:41read it as an adult and thought it was
28:44lifechanging. Absolutely. You know, her
28:46bend in the road when she gives up
28:50her lifelong dream to take care of
28:53Merilla. I mean that is lifechanging
28:56and that is a a spiritual help. Mhm. And
29:00toward the goal of formation especially
29:03for teachers whether it's in your home
29:05school or the classroom. These are not
29:07just throwaway. Oh there's something
29:10more cerebral and academic about
29:12climbing Parnass or you know any of the
29:14other books we've mentioned about
29:15history or philosophy or the practice of
29:18education. These two will greatly
29:21enhance the way that you feed your soul.
29:24That's what literature is supposed to
29:25do. Um, we've also got this list. This
29:28is everything all the literature books
29:30that we read in our curriculum starting
29:33with Little Bear in the first grade and
29:35going all the way through the Divine
29:37Comedy. Does that include all the
29:39readalouds or this is just the books
29:41that they um That's a good question.
29:45I think it's just well it's got the
29:48summer reading because it has great
29:49expectations the man who was Thursday
29:51but those are still books but it doesn't
29:53have children like those American
29:55history read alouds on it and it doesn't
29:57have the kada to read alouds
30:00um and but it also has the classical
30:02history that we read all of the um
30:06primary authors that we're reading the
30:08Greek tragedy Cicero Plato Aristotle all
30:11your metaphysics books are on here. And
30:14it's got what we read for Christian
30:16studies. Um, for some reason, Latin and
30:19Greeks on on here. I don't know why.
30:21Logic and rhetoric is on here. That's
30:23right. And some educational resources. A
30:27few educational resources. So, we can
30:29post that, too. The nice thing about
30:30this is it got a little checklist so you
30:32can go through That's right. and see
30:34what you have read and what's left to
30:37read just to even get your students
30:39through the curriculum. And there are a
30:41lot of overlap between that book and
30:44then the essential books for boys and
30:46girls. Yes. So it's not like you're
30:48going to be looking at lists that have
30:50everything's different on every list you
30:51have. There's a lot of overlap. I think
30:54another thing that we need to clarify
30:57here is the difference between all of
31:00these books we're talking about and the
31:02great books that we study at Memorial
31:05College.
31:07So do we have that list of the great
31:09books? I think I put the question in a
31:11chat, but I didn't get an answer. Do we?
31:14We did. We posted that in an episode
31:16because that's Adler's list. Yes, we
31:18did. Yeah, I think we recently we do
31:20already have that posted. Yeah, I mean
31:22we can. So, what is the difference in
31:24the great books and these books? Well,
31:27some of them will be and some of them
31:29will be the same. Correct. Yeah, you'll
31:32find war and peace in both. Mhm. Mhm.
31:36Um
31:38but the the great books um well and
31:43actually we just published on memorial
31:46college
31:48um a blog post by Joseph Pierce about
31:51the distinction between great books and
31:52the great conversation and like when
31:55when you're talking about a program and
31:57you're looking at do they teach the
31:59great books or do they teach the great
32:01conversation which is funny because we
32:02everything we use in marketing in his
32:04great we call it a great book program
32:07but in in the way he's created this this
32:11uh division or this distinction I'd say
32:14we're a great conversation program
32:15because his distinction is the great
32:17books if if you're reading as a program
32:19you're starting chronologically and and
32:21and you're just reading through and in
32:23that sense like Plato never gets a
32:25chance to respond to Aristotle because
32:26Aristotle comes chronologically after
32:27him right or Aquinus never gets a a a
32:30chance to respond to to Aristotle uh
32:34Well, Aristot never gets a chance to
32:35respond to Aquinus or or you know,
32:38Aquinus doesn't get to respond to any of
32:39the modern people because
32:41chronologically and and Joseph Pierce is
32:43making the point that like in a great
32:45conversation program, you you would
32:48absolutely once you hit Aristotle then
32:51go back say, "Okay, well then how would
32:52Plato respond to this?" Like if we fully
32:54understand what Plato's saying, right?
32:56And so when we're talking about the
32:57great books, we're talking about this
32:59conversation that's been happening and
33:00yes, it's chronological, but you have
33:03people that are, for example, Platonists
33:05that live after Aristotle that are
33:08bringing those ideas back. And so this
33:10is all a back and forth
33:13philosophically, ethically, um,
33:16theologically, scientifically. I mean,
33:18all the domains of human knowledge is
33:20part of this great conversation. But you
33:24it would be hard to have that by
33:25yourself. Correct. Yes. Which is why
33:28it's called the conversation I get. But
33:29if the conversation is between the
33:31different authors and and we are
33:34participating in that in learning and
33:36discussing I don't think I could do that
33:39by myself. Well, right. That's what the
33:41college is for. But when we're talking
33:43about lists, the the the the list of the
33:47great books that Adler puts together are
33:50like the most important works that are
33:52continuing that conversation through the
33:54ages. And so there's there are works on
33:57I mean what are the the domains I mean
33:59philosophy, literature, uh theology,
34:03history, science,
34:06etc. etc.
34:08law, um, all of those, you know, it's
34:12it's not that he took a domain and said,
34:14we're, you know, these are just the
34:16great books of literature. He said,
34:18we're taking all the domains of human
34:21um, knowledge and trying to put together
34:24a list where all of those things are in
34:26conversation because the we didn't have
34:29this uber specialization until recently.
34:33M and so your your early scientists of
34:35the 20th century were aware of the
34:37philosophical implications of their
34:40science of their scientific proposals
34:43which may not be the case. They were all
34:45classically educated. Yeah. And if
34:47somebody wanted to join the
34:50conversation, they could do we point
34:52them to Memorial College? Well, I do
34:54think we need to say something about the
34:55blog because I don't know that we've
34:56we've talked about it before, but Better
34:58Things, uh, which is the English
34:59translation of the our journal title,
35:02which is Melora. Um, and we have a
35:05number of articles there. We have a lot
35:07of articles by Joseph Pierce, as as Paul
35:09mentioned, um, and and a number of other
35:13You just Google better things and it
35:15comes Well, well, here's what I was
35:16going to say. Just go to
35:16memorialadcol.org
35:18and and look on it needs to be more
35:20prominently put on there, but um look
35:22under publications and then you'll see
35:24better things blog and then click there.
35:26I've never looked at that. Yeah. And you
35:29do you have great books classes that
35:31someone could join. Yeah. Well, that's
35:33what the college is. So, yeah. So, you
35:35can go there and look at the classes. We
35:36have the classes up for the summer. We
35:37have summer classes coming. So, are you
35:39studying it for a master's in
35:41chronological order or it's just random?
35:44Whatever. I mean, we're we're every term
35:48offering
35:50um trying to offer a a variety of
35:54different kinds of courses, right? So,
35:56make sure there's a there's something on
35:58philosophy, make sure there's something
35:59on literature, make sure there's
36:00something on science, you know, you
36:02know, and so then the the student
36:05because students are joining all the
36:06time can then pick what's appropriate to
36:08them or what they want to, you know,
36:11what they want to learn in the in the
36:12requirements of the match program. You
36:14don't actually have to be a master
36:15student to attend the course, right?
36:17Really? Is that an auditing status or um
36:20the the core courses there's no
36:21distinction. You're going to sign up,
36:23you're going to be a four credit student
36:24in that core course. The seminars, you
36:26could be an auditing student or a non-
36:27auditing student or a credit student. Um
36:31which those are the five weeks. So,
36:32we've got the the 15week core courses,
36:35you've got the fiveweek seminar courses.
36:38Um, and you can just, you know, so if
36:41you sign up for the for the list to to
36:44be informed of when these course
36:46offerings are put up and stuff, you
36:47could just see one class and go, I want
36:49that one class and that's all you got to
36:50do. Oh, nice. You know, yeah. And
36:52there's the the core classes are kind of
36:54set. There's 14 or 15 of them and
36:56they're they're offered on a rotating
36:58basis. But they the the seminars I I'm I
37:02guess we have taught a particular
37:05seminar more than once. But you know
37:07often times yeah often times we'll just
37:09say you know Tracy Lee Simmons teaches
37:11for us. We'll say Tracy what's on your
37:13mind? Well you know I'm reading Brides
37:15Head Revisited right? You know I could
37:16do a class on that. Yeah. And so we do
37:17it and so it's it's it's something that
37:21you're going to get fresh from the mind
37:22of the teacher and uh and and they're
37:25always different although you know
37:27there's certain themes that kind of come
37:28you know children's literature uh vegan
37:30growing done a couple couple courses I
37:32think on that and um and uh yeah so so
37:37those are thing it's those seminars I
37:39think those are fivee seminars that our
37:41listeners might be more interested in uh
37:44they're short um you can take them for
37:46credit or nonredit. Uh but it's it's
37:49geared toward discussion. You know, if
37:51everyone reads the work, then you come
37:53to class and you talk about it and and
37:56really it's in a discussion I find
37:59myself that I learn more. Oh,
38:01definitely. Yeah. So, that's what we do.
38:04And if you can't make it to one of those
38:07seminars, we would probably encourage
38:09you to read this with a friend who wants
38:11to do it, too. Absolutely. like you were
38:13mentioning those the teachers who just
38:14started the school in Tennessee, right?
38:16They probably were friends together
38:18reading and thinking about education
38:20before they started a school. Yeah. And
38:21a lot of schools do have um teacher book
38:24groups where they actually go through
38:27something like the Iliad, the Odyssey,
38:29the Anid together helping each other be
38:32lifelong learners. You know, that's a
38:34great thing to do. I think we did Dante
38:35here. I um didn't finish it, but uh Kyle
38:40Yonke did that with us and um you know
38:44there's talk of doing more Memorial
38:46Press. We have a book club. Yes. Yes.
38:48Where we're just It does help to be able
38:51to have the conversation. It may not be
38:53a great conversation.
38:55Well, and and I mean just the Memorial
38:58Press book we're reading right now, The
38:59Name of the Rose, like I wanted to read
39:01that again. I kept putting it off and
39:05and even once it was assigned as this is
39:07what we're doing, I kept putting it off
39:09because I had other stuff I wanted to
39:10read and then I'm like, okay, I'm
39:11getting close now. I'm going to actually
39:12read it. And so that's it's it's just
39:15helpful for accountability, too. It is.
39:17Um where you actually deadline, your
39:20aspirations become a reality. Mhm. Mhm.
39:22Right. That's good.
39:24Well, we've thrown a lot a lot at
39:27people, but we have it all organized in
39:30book lists and and I'm encouraged. I
39:32think these lists are definitely
39:35digestible. You can choose what works
39:37for you depending on what stage you're
39:39at and get to work.
39:44Well, thanks everybody for being here,
39:45for bringing all your lists. And thank
39:48you for joining us. We'll be back next
39:51time. Thanks for joining us today on
39:53classical etc by Memorialia Press. If
39:56you like what you heard, please like,
39:59subscribe or share this episode or
40:02comment. We love to hear your questions
40:04and your comments. If you want to learn
40:07more about Memorial Press, please go to
40:11memorialapress.com. This has been
40:13classical etc. We're so glad you joined
40:15us and we'll see you next time.

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