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"Ci vuole il ministero delle pari probabilità" - Intervista a SILVIA SALIS, sindaca di Genova — Transcript

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0:00How does it take shape? Already in the
0:02fact that we have to explain it to you,
0:04I mean, no, but with respect, with
0:06respect. Good morning everyone, welcome
0:17, and we are at a festival that talks
0:19about cities. We are a festival that
0:22hosts The Talk Live in this space,
0:25which is our newsletter dedicated to
0:27women and more feminine topics. So it
0:31seemed very appropriate to invite
0:33Silvia Salis, mayor of Genoa, and we
0:41will interview her with Carlo Notar
0:43Pietro, who is our politics writer at
0:45Will. Before we start with the
0:49questions, Carlo will give us a
0:51biography.
0:52>> Let’s try to describe who our guest
0:54is today. She is a woman, a mother, and
0:57a Christian, but no, she is not at
0:58Palazzo Chigi, she was born in Genoa.
1:01Ci I apologize right away, I distance
1:06myself from everything I will say on
1:08this stage. Especially the next part.
1:12She was born in Genoa, a city famous
1:13for the notorious generosity of its
1:15inhabitants and for being the capital
1:17of a region that had its moment of
1:18greatest fame thanks to Elisabetta
1:20Canalis at Sanremo. As you know,
1:22moreover, my boss is Ligurian, so this
1:25might be my last experience on this
1:27stage, but that's okay. While her peers
1:29are forced to play with Barbies and the
1:32boys to chase a ball, as in any
1:33Mediterranean patriarchal upbringing
1:36worth its salt, not her. She starts
1:38from a young age playing with heavy
1:41metal spheres in a field. Then she
1:44realizes over time that by spinning
1:46several times and hurling these metal
1:48balls far away, she could make a job
1:49out of it, and maybe win some medals,
1:51so she believes in it and keeps going.
1:55Think of a tool made up of a metal
1:57sphere, a flexible steel cable, and a
1:59handle. Something anyone would
2:03objectively stay away from, but for her
2:04, it becomes a vehicle of emotional
2:06transport toward glory. Having overcome
2:10the dizziness from years of spinning,
2:12at a certain point she decides that
2:13throwing heavy objects into the air has
2:15become boring, so she hangs up her
2:17sports shoes and puts on a formal
2:19jacket to enter the halls of sports
2:21power. The youngest Vice President of
2:24CONI in history, but something still
2:26doesn’t add up, it’s not enough.
2:29Having tested for herself that sports
2:31institutions are perhaps too peaceful,
2:32she decides that the real Olympic gala
2:34is politics. She runs for mayor of
2:37Genoa, winning and helping the "Campo
2:39Largo" coalition reclaim the city,
2:41which is still analyzing that victory
2:43today. Incredulous party officials
2:46wander around Genoa and the Nazareno
2:48headquarters trying to understand how
2:50it was possible to win. Since she has
2:52been mayor of Genoa and involved in
2:54politics, everything has happened.
2:55Lately, car taxes, primaries, short
2:57skirts, the bridge over the strait—
2:59for months, politics has been doing
3:01everything, racing to influence the
3:03debate, and then she arrives. She
3:05gathers 20,000 people in the historic
3:07center of the oldest city in Europe and
3:09makes them dance to the beat of one of
3:11the biggest international stars of the
3:14techno scene. And boom, move aside
3:15everyone, everyone is only talking
3:17about her. But her biography
3:19unfortunately stops here. Yes, because
3:21why doesn't she want to make the leap
3:23into national politics? No. She doesn't
3:25want to run to be the leader of the "
3:27Campo Largo"? No. She doesn't want to
3:30enter the national political debate.
3:32No. She doesn't want to get to Palazzo
3:34Chigi. No, no, no. Stop asking her this
3:37question. She doesn't want to, she
3:39tries in every way to say no, even in
3:41Genoese dialect, but the more she says
3:43no, the more the Campo Largo courts her
3:44. It's a bit of a love story. She
3:47doesn't want to, but in the meantime,
3:49she continues to communicate clearly,
3:50never sinking into the trashiness that
3:52characterizes Italian politics, always
3:54balanced. In short, it seems her only
3:56skeleton in the closet is being part of
3:58the Campo Largo. The Campo Largo, some
4:01define it as holy, but never dead. It's
4:03that magical world, in case you didn't
4:05know, that goes from the left to the
4:06moderates to the nostalgics of the
4:08center, passing through the weekend
4:10populists. That field which, to find a
4:12unified leader, perhaps needs to
4:14consult horoscopes, tarot cards, or
4:16hold three séances with the spirit of
4:18Berlinguer. After all, the only time a
4:20single national leader was found who
4:23won twice, they had held a séance to
4:25find Aldo Moro. So everything adds up,
4:27everything is regular. But returning,
4:29to conclude, to the one who does not
4:31want to become leader of the Campo
4:33Largo, the truth behind the scenes of
4:35politics is that she could aspire to
4:37become, even in the future—not
4:39necessarily now—a national leader.
4:42But then that something happened that
4:44everyone in politics desperately tries
4:46to avoid: she was sponsored
4:47simultaneously by Carlo Calenda and
4:49Matteo Renzi together. And you try
4:52staying credible in that situation.
4:55Anyway, all the details perfectly
4:57explain how and why she experiences
4:59politics with that Olympian detachment.
5:02When you grew up among metal spheres
5:04flying through the air, and you married
5:06the same man twice in the end, even if,
5:08let's say, figuratively the second time
5:10. You raise a child and simultaneously
5:13manage a large city, the feuds between
5:15the Campo Largo leaders objectively
5:16don't seem like anything anymore.
5:18Welcome to Silvia Salis, Mayor of Genoa
5:21. Thanks, Carlo. So, Madam Mayor,
5:38>> good morning.
5:39>> First of all, let's comment on this
5:41biography. Did you like it? No, no, I
5:43don't want you scolding me here on
5:45stage right before I interview you.
5:47>> Well, you made me laugh a lot, I have
5:48to tell you the truth. Some things I
5:50hadn't analyzed that way; they’re a
5:51bit unsettling.
5:52>> I thought there were some things I
5:53didn't know. I said,
5:54>> maybe I wasn't perfectly aware of some,
5:56but the dismay of not having won the
5:59election, that was certainly there.
6:01Indeed, yes. And I kept making this
6:04joke to the PD secretary in Genoa, uh,
6:05every day of the campaign, that it was
6:07going very well. Mh, the first day when
6:10Bonelli and Fratoianni came to Genoa,
6:12which was the first day with the
6:14leaders, two national leaders
6:16supporting me, I did the interview like
6:18this, a bit with this sports drift I
6:21had, and I said: "Well, I think I'll
6:23win in the first round," and everyone
6:25panicked, a moment of collective
6:27anxiety, like, "You shouldn't have said
6:29that, you shouldn't have." He said, "
6:32Well, I think we will win in the first
6:34round, because there are so many of us,
6:36and also, I mean, if we don't win in
6:38the first round in a city that, until
6:40we fell apart, is a left-wing city,
6:42well, I don't think there were any
6:44doubts." But yes, there is this
6:46tendency here to view victory as a
6:48right-wing issue.
6:51>> So, when it all began, it was May 2025,
6:54a while ago, but we want to start a bit
6:57earlier. Let's bring up the first slide
7:00, a little earlier. Here we need to
7:04understand what field you were in and,
7:07above all, how old you were.
7:10>> Well, here I was 3 or 4 years old, I
7:13think. That’s the hammer throw cage,
7:15and that white house behind me is my
7:17home, because it’s the caretaker's
7:19house for the Villa Gentile athletics
7:20field, which was my father. It’s an
7:24athletics field, a training track in
7:25Genoa, and I was lucky enough to grow
7:27up in a sports facility. You see, when
7:31it was closed, it was my garden, so I
7:33would run around, play, and this photo
7:35is a bit prophetic because I ended up
7:38spending 15 years in that cage.
7:42>> So, uh, your dad was the caretaker of
7:44the Villa Gentile field, but your mom
7:47was a municipal employee,
7:48>> both of them municipal employees,
7:50exactly. Let's say a connection to the
7:53municipality was there from the start.
7:56It was there from the start. Above all,
7:58there was this uh, this passion of
8:00yours for sports. Uh, you start
8:04athletics at 8 years old, and after
8:06that, uh, we start with the hammer
8:09throw. We went to two Olympics, it
8:11seems to me, right?
8:12>> Yes, two.
8:14>> And yet, this whole sports world ends
8:16in 2016, so 10 years ago.
8:18>> Yes. Well, in these 10 years, you once
8:22told me, "I have never stopped, let's
8:25say, loving sports, and above all, my
8:27daily routine always begins with a 10
8:30km run." Still like that?
8:33>> Yes, I wake up early at 6:00 a.m. and
8:34run, and then I wake up my son, who is
8:36almost 3 years old, and this way I
8:38manage to spend some time with him and
8:40then I head, I head to city hall.
8:42>> You run at home, though.
8:43>> Yes, on the treadmill, like a hamster.
8:45Yes, yes. Okay. And meanwhile, I read
8:48the newspapers with those things that
8:50are already stressful just to think
8:51about.
8:53>> But running still helps. I trained for
8:57many, many years before, between 6 and
8:598 hours a day, so thinking about not
9:01training at all anymore is difficult.
9:05And I must say that for those
9:06accustomed to training, and there are
9:08many people here who do, it's the
9:09opposite of tiring, because when you
9:11finish, that is, when you've finished
9:13your workout, especially early in the
9:15morning, then you feel better during
9:16the day. So for me, it's important
9:20because, as you can imagine, the days
9:21are sometimes quite heavy. And when,
9:26well, you arrived in May 2025, trained,
9:29let's say, well, a year and a half has
9:32passed. What was the most difficult
9:36moment of this year and a half, and the
9:39most beautiful one, if we can find it?
9:45The most difficult was when we realized
9:47public transport was failing, a public
9:49transport system that for years had
9:51been described by the right as a jewel,
9:53as something wonderful, provided
9:54practically for free to half the city.
9:59And when we arrived, they explained to
10:01us that AMT, which is our public
10:03transport company, was in a business
10:05crisis and that we had practically only
10:07a few weeks to find a way to turn
10:09things around. I would like to point
10:13out that there are 3,000 employees,
10:15roughly speaking, also considering
10:18everything that is satellite to a
10:20public transport company which, in a
10:22city of half a million people, you will
10:25obviously understand is a very
10:27significant number, and over 200
10:29million in debt; a company that in 2024
10:31lost 4.5 million per month, so
10:33practically a disaster. We had to
10:36revise the service, remove the free
10:38access, and therefore use our own
10:41political capital to perform an
10:43operation of reality and administration
10:45in the first months of an
10:47administration. So this was the highest
10:50political cost, but above all, what is
10:52difficult when governing is not
10:54managing the discontent, because that
10:57is there, and regarding that, you can't
10:59always make everyone happy, you can't
11:01always make a provision that is
11:03appreciated. and managing the
11:07disappointment of people who saw
11:09something in those choices of ours. Uh,
11:13I say "ours" because in reality no one
11:15is alone, even those who make you
11:17believe they are the great leaders of a
11:19team; I mean, managing a city, you need
11:21a team, and it's good not to be alone.
11:24And our choices were unpopular choices,
11:26but they were choices that went to
11:28protect jobs and people's dignity. So I
11:31took political responsibility for this,
11:33but it’s still ongoing because the
11:35situation hasn't returned to normal yet
11:37. We will start to recover in '27 with
11:41new hires and a service that will
11:43return to the level it was before. Well
11:46, uh, the accounts of AMT are with the
11:48Public Prosecutor's Office and the
11:50Court of Auditors; they are
11:51investigating for false accounting and
11:53bankruptcy, and that’s the situation.
11:57So, imagine public transport as the
11:59huge cog that it is within the public
12:01administration of a large city; having
12:04it in this condition was complex to
12:06manage, both technically because the
12:08negotiated settlement of the crisis is
12:10a truly difficult procedure to manage.
12:15It is a tailor-made, pinpoint procedure
12:16: there are relations with creditors
12:18that must be managed, union relations,
12:20and the provision of service. So I
12:23don't want to bore you, but it is a
12:26very complex procedure to bring to
12:28fruition; and also the fact that
12:30investigations and in-depth analyses
12:32never go at the speed of the
12:34communication of the effects that
12:36events like this produce. So it is
12:39truly difficult to manage, and I regret
12:42that it is often difficult to convey
12:44how some choices are not postponable
12:47and, for a left-wing administration,
12:49are not avoidable, in the sense that it
12:52is clear that the dignity and respect
12:55of workers come before your political
12:57capital. So, this was a difficult
13:00moment. There were obviously many
13:03beautiful ones later, but you see, as
13:06mayor—because, well, a mayor, in my
13:08case a mayoress, falls in love with
13:10that job and never regrets having done
13:12it, even though it is truly impactful.
13:16Many jobs are tiring, but a mayor is a
13:20mayor all day and all night. When you
13:23walk down the street, in every gesture
13:25you make, in every word said to you, in
13:28every answer you give, you are never a
13:31private person, never. And by how you
13:34pay for a snack or how you move your
13:36shopping cart, how you park your car or
13:38how you respond to a person who may be
13:40more or less polite, you are still the
13:42mayor of a city and you must remember
13:44that with every breath. that you take.
13:47So this is the impact, obviously. But
13:51also seeing children waving at you
13:53while you drive or walk by, wanting to
13:55come and talk to you, giving the
13:57oration at Sant'Anna di Stazzema,
13:59holding the oration, experiencing the
14:01first April 25th as mayor of a city
14:03with such an important history of
14:05resistance. Seeing that there is an
14:09alignment and a mutual—I don't want
14:11to say esteem—but a mutual ability to
14:14recognize each other with all the
14:17workers who have major labor disputes,
14:20from Alex Silva to now Ericsson; these
14:22are elements that give you the energy
14:25to then face other problems as well.
14:29But, in general, the beauty is the
14:31relationship with people—the fact
14:33that they recognize in you someone to
14:35trust even when you have to tell them
14:37something that is hard to hear.
14:41Actually, I was going to ask for a fact
14:43that keeps you up at night and a fact
14:45you are proud of. I think the first
14:48question was already answered regarding
14:50the public transport company's debt,
14:52but a fact that makes you proud of your
14:54city today, and if you can tell us in
14:5660 seconds how it has changed this year
14:58, how Genoa has changed this year.
15:02First of all, we have reversed the
15:04narrative of an elderly city into a
15:05city where things are getting done,
15:07there is dynamism, there is a desire to
15:09change, there is a university that can
15:11function better and better. Yes, this
15:14is definitely what we want to invest in
15:17more and more. The living conditions of
15:20young people in Genoa is certainly the
15:22issue closest to my heart because,
15:24among other things, it is a city that,
15:27having such a high average age, needs
15:29young people and needs them to come
15:31live in Genoa. Yes, so this is
15:34definitely the main element for us.
15:39>> Here we chose a photo that I ask Silvia
15:41to describe. Yes. Uh, here we chose
15:45another family photo.
15:47>> Yes.
15:48>> Uh, here with your father Eugenio,
15:50Eugenio, which is also your son's name.
15:54Uh, your father Eugenio passed away at
15:56the beginning of the campaign, right in
15:59February 2025, so it was a difficult
16:02moment where personal resources were
16:05put into play even more. Despite this,
16:09as you recalled, the campaign went very
16:12well and this presence and these values
16:16of your father remained over time. You
16:21once told me that the presence of
16:23values, not only from your sports
16:26career but also from your family, have
16:28always been somewhat the pillar of your
16:31administration of the city. We wanted
16:35to ask—you touched on this a bit—
16:37what people say to you when you meet
16:39them, I mean on the street, because
16:41sometimes it can be quite unsettling.
16:43Sometimes you encounter a protester,
16:46and other times you find someone who
16:48just wants to be nice to you.
16:52>> Is there anything someone has said to
16:54you that really struck a chord? Well, a
16:58gentleman on a beach we were opening to
17:01the public approached me and said, "
17:03Those of us who support you don't write
17:06on Facebook, but there are many of us."
17:10It made me reflect for a moment on how
17:12we often focus much more on negative
17:15comments than on positive ones. 100
17:19people pass by, say hello, smile at you
17:21, a child comes to greet you, a lady
17:23says something kind, and then one
17:25person passes by and says something
17:27nasty, and you think about that one all
17:29day long. But that’s a classic
17:32experience for everyone, not just for a
17:35mayor. We spend so much time focusing
17:38on criticisms without weighing their
17:41actual proportion or importance
17:43compared to the appreciation we receive
17:46in life, or how much time we waste
17:48thinking about someone who wasn't there
17:51at that moment or wishing things were
17:54different, instead of focusing on the
17:57love we have around us. Well, in
17:59politics, more or less the same thing
18:01happens. We are all much more sensitive
18:05to criticism than we are happy about
18:07compliments. So, in this sense, the
18:11effort you have to make is—look,
18:14there is this beautiful quote that
18:16overlooks a very famous sports field in
18:19the world, which says that you should
18:21meet success and failure and treat
18:23those two impostors just the same. And
18:27that is the key: even when you have
18:30great success, when everyone embraces
18:32you, wants to meet you, wants a photo
18:34—it carries the same weight as the
18:37person who might say something mean to
18:39you or boo you. It is often said that
18:42if you want to be in politics, you
18:43mustn't be afraid of the cold or the
18:45boos. Exactly, you shouldn't be afraid
18:47of that, just as you shouldn't fall in
18:49love with the people who stop you on
18:50the street to ask for a photo or to
18:51tell you that you're doing a great job.
18:55It is difficult to maintain this
18:56balance because often you might feel
18:58elated, and so you get confused,
19:00thinking that this popularity means
19:02everything is going well. Many times,
19:06however, when faced with criticism,
19:07despite there being many positive
19:09elements, you focus on it and think
19:11that it's a moment where nothing is
19:13going right—it’s a balance in
19:14politics, and in life, that is
19:16difficult to maintain. But in politics,
19:19instead, you have to keep it, because
19:21focusing too much—that is, falling
19:23too much in love with yourself or, uh,
19:25focusing too much on criticism—makes
19:27you lose the only thing you need, which
19:29is the ability to analyze the present
19:31and plan for the future. So these are
19:34two elements to which you must remain
19:36tethered. A very quick question for you
19:45as a person, because we at Will and
19:47Cora have covered this a lot, and it is
19:49a topic close to our hearts. We have
19:51worked closely with the victims '
19:53relatives, including the victims'
19:55relatives committee. Where were you on
19:57August 14, 2018? Do you think that
20:01wound is still very much open for the
20:03city, and what are the impacts today?
20:07Um, I wasn't in Genoa, and in fact, I
20:10spent hours calling dozens of people,
20:12like I think so many people did, almost
20:15everyone who wasn't sure they knew
20:18where the people they wanted to have
20:20with them at that moment were. It is a
20:25wound, of course it is still open, but
20:27it is a wound that will never close
20:29because there isn't just the grief,
20:31there is the injustice, the
20:33malfunctioning of the State, and the
20:35indifference of the institutions and
20:37companies responsible for inspections.
20:40There is so much, there is so much.
20:42There is the wait for, um, a justice
20:44that takes so long to arrive. Um, there
20:48is, there is so much all together,
20:50above all a strong sense of injustice
20:53and, uh, abandonment by those
20:55institutions that should have been
20:57watching over us.
21:01>> Thank you. Go ahead, Silvia. Uh, still
21:05speaking about criticism, since, um,
21:07you said, "I adopted a technique where
21:10I take both compliments and criticism
21:12with a certain distance, a fair
21:14distance; I give them the weight they
21:16should have, right?" Uh, obviously
21:20criticism comes not only from protests
21:22in the street, but right from political
21:24opponents, so
21:27>> uh, have you identified, right, a frame
21:29, so to speak, something that you are
21:32always reproached for?
21:37>> Well, uh, let's start by
21:38contextualizing political opponents,
21:40because one also has to understand the
21:42level of those who talk about you: they
21:44aren't all the same, they aren't all of
21:47the same level. And we know very well
21:51that, and on this, uh, a distinction
21:53must be made between the center-right
21:55and the center-left, between the right
21:58and the left as far as politicians are
22:00concerned—not those who comment on
22:02social media or people who are not part
22:05of politics—: there is a truly
22:07different register, and I am proud of
22:09it. Meaning that I believe that, um, it
22:14is more difficult for center-left
22:18political representatives to attack, on
22:22a personal level, uh, those who, um,
22:25are in the other camp. I honestly
22:29receive a series of attacks: some are
22:32grotesque, because they are obviously
22:35linked to physical appearance, how you
22:38dress, what brand of shoes you wear, as
22:41if these were identity markers that
22:44matter to the people who have to vote
22:47for you; and others claiming that, um,
22:50I am just a person looking for
22:52visibility. Well, that is what I suffer
22:56from most coming from the world of
22:58sports, because in the sports world
23:00there is an objective meritocracy based
23:02on results. On the national team, at
23:06one point I was the strongest, for
23:08years I wasn't, and as long as I wasn't
23:10, the ones stronger than me were in
23:12charge—pardon the term—they decided
23:14the schedules, the shifts, and the
23:16matters related to the competitions. I
23:20didn't question the fact that they were
23:22stronger than me or why they were,
23:23because there was a judge with a
23:24measuring tape in hand saying, "Look,
23:26until you do better than this mark, she
23:28is stronger." In politics, this doesn't
23:31happen; and not only that, it doesn't
23:34happen among those who do politics, nor
23:37does it happen among those who watch
23:39and comment on politics. Let me give
23:41you an example. If I were watching a
23:44competition and saw a person make a
23:46mistake and lose an Olympic medal—I
23:48was an athlete and I never won Olympic
23:51medals, so someone competing at that
23:53level is already on another planet
23:55compared to me—but I would still feel
23:57a sense of empathy in that moment. Now,
24:01in politics this doesn't happen because
24:04you have a city councilor telling
24:06someone who became mayor of an
24:08important city like Genoa at 39 that
24:11she is incompetent. Well, I come from a
24:15sport where not only does this not
24:17happen, but anyone who did behave like
24:19that would look like an imbecile
24:21because you would look at them and say,
24:23"Excuse me, but what have you done to
24:25be able to say this about her?" I mean,
24:29what results have you achieved in life
24:30to be able to judge a person like that?
24:32In sports, this is much more automatic,
24:34right? You immediately look like a sore
24:37loser and a bit of a loser yourself
24:39when you say someone isn't competent or
24:41isn't good, not to mention all the
24:43various epithets like "Barbie" and so
24:46on, because women are never...
24:49>> It was said by her opponents, whose
24:51names I won't mention, that elections
24:53are not a beauty contest. It won't be
24:55enough to just put on more makeup with
24:58good-looking people. Pretty, but
25:00doesn't know how to govern.
25:02>> Beautiful, but I wouldn't want to live
25:03there. Yes, that's more or less the
25:05level of these commentators. Well,
25:14let's just say I know who said that
25:16elections aren't a beauty contest, and
25:19luckily for them, not an intelligence
25:22one either, because elections are
25:24elections, everyone can participate,
25:27and then, you know, one also has to see
25:29how and why they are won. Oh yes, it's
25:33all like that. If you go and read some
25:37of the detractors 'comments: I'm a
25:39Barbie, um, I'm brainless, I'm a bimbo.
25:43Then there are also all those who say
25:45that I'm actually not pretty because I
25:47have this flaw, and that, anyway, they
25:49even saw me on the street and, well,
25:50that day I was picking my nose: so that
25:52made them realize I'm not really the
25:54person they...it’s all like that. But
25:57the reality is different, and all that
26:00volume of comments doesn't amount to
26:03much. But the result is evident, and
26:06it's also evident in the polls. They've
26:10been hammering me for a year about the
26:12Rolex, the Manolo Blahniks, Forte dei
26:14Marmi, so you're right-wing, so prove
26:16to us that you're left-wing, etcetera.
26:19Well, I'll tell you about two episodes;
26:21one is public, the other happened to me
26:24personally. A worker from Genoa
26:26approaches me and says, "Elly, anyway,
26:28I don't care how much you pay for your
26:30shoes, because when it's time to stand
26:32with the workers, you're there." That's
26:35what people care about. On the right,
26:38they keep thinking that, well, I
26:40understand I’ve left them a bit, how
26:42can I put it, unsettled, because
26:44obviously they can't spout that usual
26:46list of idiotic phrases they say about
26:49the image of left-wing women, an image
26:51that doesn't exist, of course, right?
26:55And then there's another public topic.
26:57A Corriere della Sera poll was released
26:59on the approval ratings among the
27:01various parties. I have very high
27:04approval among AVS voters, who are
27:06certainly, within our coalition, a
27:08party much further to the left than
27:10others, right? Why is that? Because
27:15those now-sterile, populist criticisms
27:17and so on, serve to galvanize your own
27:20base, but they don't convince others,
27:22because unfortunately—or fortunately
27:24—our voters are very well-informed,
27:26meaning they are also very critical. So
27:30what are the issues that matter?
27:34Protecting labor, what are the issues
27:36regarding the ecological and energy
27:39transition, zero land consumption in
27:42cities, the ability to reuse abandoned
27:45areas and turn them into something else
27:48, depaving, and all these activities;
27:50it’s obvious: participation is
27:53clearly not conditioned by what shoes
27:56you wear, it's conditioned by what you
27:59do, and how many of those things then
28:02become political actions. Well, in this
28:06sense, I would say we are bracing for
28:08the next 6 months, which will be a sort
28:10of slaughterhouse. Yes, yes, we’ll
28:13see absolutely everything. But, you
28:16know, I experienced it during the
28:18campaign, which, according to the local
28:21press, was certainly the most violent
28:23mayoral race ever, and it was all like
28:26that: photos of me on vacation, photos
28:28of me in a nice hotel, photos of me in
28:31a nice suit, just hammering away at
28:33these elements. And it didn't work. So,
28:37it won't work on a national level
28:39either; we need to change the subject,
28:41and in my opinion we also have to make
28:46sure the topics change, because I’ll
28:48tell you this, sorry, then I'll finish.
28:53I met Bill de Blasio in Genoa, the
28:55mayor of New York, a progressive mayor
28:58who obviously experienced the great
29:00dilemma of all progressives, namely
29:02being attacked by those on the far left
29:05and being attacked by everyone from the
29:08center-right onwards. De Blasio was a
29:12mayor with some very important ideas.
29:16Here is what I...he told me one thing:
29:19very often our political side, which is
29:22the one that most professes, practices,
29:25and believes in inclusion, is the most
29:28categorical in, uh, how can I put it,
29:31even as we see it, right, in the
29:33categorization, in the analysis of
29:36allies, right? So we, who profess to a
29:41certain extent that we must include,
29:43must collaborate, must be as much as
29:46possible, must recognize differences
29:48and turn them into a, uh, a point in
29:50our favor, when it comes to us, we
29:52struggle. So, if I have to take a, what
29:57should I say, a piece of self-advice,
30:00it's what Bill de Blasio told me: try
30:03to be truly inclusive, especially when
30:05talking about us politically.
30:09>> Very well, and now we arrive here.
30:14There it is. So, Genoa, the oldest city
30:18in Europe, you bring in an
30:20international DJ, Charlotte de Witte,
30:22to Piazza Matteotti. Yes.
30:25>> Eh, everyone is talking about it, the
30:27whole world is talking about it. What
30:29remains of that event beyond the media
30:32hype that existed at that moment? What,
30:35what is the legacy of that thing and
30:37what was the vision, right, of that
30:39moment? That remains a moment; I don't
30:41imbue it with any political meaning
30:44other than it being a very successful
30:46moment, but one that is part of a
30:48reasoning on culture. We also need to
30:50get rid of a certain snobbery that
30:52exists when we talk about culture,
30:54because culture is everything. There is
30:57no culture that is more important, a
30:59cultural experiment that is more
31:01elevated, or music that has more
31:03dignity and more, how can I put it,
31:05right to be represented, or an event
31:07that in itself has a style and
31:08something superior. Culture is
31:11everything. A city must take care of
31:14local cultural associations, bring in
31:16big pop events, and bring in events
31:18that are very niche, meaning they have
31:20great appreciation and their own
31:22audience, but that perhaps aren't
31:24traditionally linked to the choices of
31:26public administrations. There, I
31:29believe that is the issue more than
31:30anything else. What I can tell you is
31:33that the event held in Genoa, with a
31:35truly very modest cost of just over €
31:38100,000, gave Genoa international
31:40publicity that I wouldn't have been
31:42able to buy even with millions of euros
31:44. Because I read about this event; the
31:47city of Genoa was talked about in
31:50Brazil, Korea, Japan, the United States
31:52, and in all European countries. There,
31:56I believe this is also a way to promote
31:58the city: having the courage to
32:00organize something that is—a word I
32:03don't love, but let's say—alternative
32:05, and managing to characterize your
32:08city with an event that for some reason
32:10becomes a topic of discussion. So, on
32:14the 2nd we will have, uh, another event
32:17of the...
32:18>> another square like this
32:19>> with Nova. Let's prepare with the news
32:23story
32:23>> of what will happen
32:25>> during the Boat Show, which I invite
32:28you to visit. On October 2nd, there
32:30will also be a ticket dedicated to
32:32Under 35s because in the evening there
32:34is a concert by Nova, another great DJ
32:37>> of whom you are a fan.
32:39>> What?
32:39>> Of whom you are a fan.
32:40>> Yes, yes. After this second concert, if
32:42she had been old enough, she would have
32:44been a candidate for President of the
32:46Republic right then, directly after the
32:47"campo largo" coalition. Let's go. In
32:51my opinion, there is also a relief
32:53among young people in seeing that one
32:55can also think of them every now and
32:57then when doing things; it’s not
32:59mandatory, let’s say, to do
33:05>> But in fact, beyond techno music—
33:07which I don't even know where it comes
33:09from—in this festival we are talking
33:11about a lot of topics that particularly
33:13concern young people: housing,
33:15transport, and public gathering spaces
33:17for the younger generations. a policy
33:20you intend to implement in the coming
33:23years on one of these topics for Genoa.
33:26>> Just this morning I was with Compagnia
33:28di San Paolo here in Turin; they are
33:30helping us a lot on a project close to
33:32my heart regarding urban regeneration
33:35through decentralized student housing
33:37in the historic center. The issue of
33:39student housing, and in general the
33:41cost of rent, is a topic that public
33:43administrations must address. We know
33:46—my niece, by the way, just graduated
33:48in engineering here in Turin a few days
33:50ago—that a major issue for families
33:52who are already paying for their
33:53children's education is that covering
33:55rent as well becomes difficult. So, the
33:58topic of student housing and
34:00dormitories is something we want to see
34:02grow over the coming years, especially
34:04with the new rector who has just been
34:06appointed. Genoa is a great university
34:09town and it must become an industry for
34:12the city, but an industry in a positive
34:14sense: an industry that produces
34:16services and well-being for students
34:18who live in the city and want services
34:20beyond just a good university. There
34:23are some faster, short-term projects,
34:26such as creating two free rehearsal
34:29rooms for playing music, which are
34:31currently lacking in the city; because
34:34culture isn't just about paying to see
34:37it, but also being able to participate
34:40actively and have the chance to express
34:43oneself, which I believe is part of a
34:46young person's growth. And then there
34:50are plans for coworking and "costudying
34:53" spaces throughout the city to provide
34:55free, cool-in-summer, heated-in-winter
34:57locations with a good internet
34:59connection, allowing young people to
35:01study; these are fairly quick elements
35:04to implement. We have also supported
35:07bike sharing, which hadn't been
35:09developed in Genoa, and it’s going
35:11very well and enjoying huge success—
35:13unsurprisingly, especially among young
35:15people—and these are all elements
35:17that will slowly contribute. However,
35:20processes in cities are very slow. Yes,
35:23>> But in fact, to close this parenthesis,
35:26how do you communicate change, which is
35:28often made through choices that don't
35:31have immediate results, right? If they
35:33are far-sighted, they create many more
35:35political difficulties for those who
35:37make them. And what I have started to
35:40understand, and I'm only in my first
35:42year, is that mandates are, I don't
35:45know how to put it, perhaps like
35:47romantic relationships,
35:48>> or marathons. Yes. There are moments
35:52when things go very well, moments when
35:54you have to hold on because you know
35:56you want to stay there and you have
35:58that goal, and you know things will get
36:00better, you know that there are issues
36:02that will be resolved, and there are
36:04moments when a series of positive
36:06elements align, and so there is a
36:08positive sentiment in the city.
36:11Basically, you mustn't let yourself get
36:12worked up, in the sense that when
36:16things aren't going well, you have to
36:18hold on and keep focused on your vision
36:21for the city. Well, a piece of advice I
36:26feel I can give to those embarking on
36:29this political path, to new mayors, is
36:32that the first year is difficult. You
36:37feel like you're in front of Agassi's
36:39father's ball machine. I mean, you feel
36:42like something happens every day, and
36:43especially in the first few months, you
36:45have a relatively limited grasp of it,
36:47unless you've been a councilor or
36:48already have experience, but that
36:50wasn't the case for me. Um, well, the
36:53important thing is to hold the line and
36:57not change it every time the wind
36:59changes. And the tendency is there,
37:03when there are problems, there's the
37:06attempt to say, let's try doing it this
37:09way and see. Well, you have to avoid
37:12doing that, because if you have goals,
37:14it's only by staying on the same path
37:16that you manage to achieve them, even
37:18by going through periods where perhaps
37:20approval or consensus isn't through the
37:22roof. Let's go back to that dangerous
37:27object,
37:28>> to that dangerous spherical object. Eh,
37:30it was 2000 here,
37:32>> this. Well, and then the year after, in
37:35fact, you stop, you quit, well,
37:38participating in competitions. And what
37:44happened next was a career within CONI,
37:47where you were vice president, the
37:50first woman to do this thing. And we
37:55wondered, indeed, if in these sports
37:57environments, because since you were
37:59little you were told: "It's not a sport
38:01for girls, no, the shot put, you could
38:07do other things," but instead you did
38:08this, you really put yourself in a
38:09situation like that. Then you persisted
38:13with CONI, where they were all men at
38:15the table, and this thing, however,
38:17actually helped you a bit to build a
38:19shell against the criticism today that
38:21you've already explained to us. But we
38:24wanted to understand if there is
38:26something you learned from that
38:28situation in particular in this sense,
38:31that is: what was it?
38:33>> Sporting management?
38:34>> Eh, from the management, that is, from
38:36the CONI side, when it was
38:37>> Let's move on with the question from
38:38that side.
38:39>> I see that, I see that it's a bit of a,
38:40no,
38:41>> no, no. Answer, answer. M, well, yes,
38:44surely hammer throwing was not a sport
38:47that you would immediately associate
38:49with a little girl. Among other things,
38:52um, it became the story of a children's
38:55book I wrote a few years ago, which, I
38:57must say, gave me great satisfaction.
39:00It's called The Strongest Little Girl
39:02in the World and it's the story of a
39:04little girl who wants to play a sport
39:06that everyone says is for boys, for men
39:09, this and that, and then there's the
39:11story of this girl who, um, becomes an
39:13athlete and does it. Here, by the way,
39:16I am in Russia, and this also makes me
39:19reflect on everything that happened
39:21afterward. And at that moment it was
39:252015, we were certainly very far from,
39:28um, from the history we later lived
39:30through and which we thought was very
39:32far from us, at least, a reality of
39:35that kind. Management, while sports are
39:39meritocratic—and so it is certainly a
39:42male environment at the coaching level
39:45—is an environment that is stuck 50
39:49years in the past. And I must say that
39:53becoming deputy vice president at 35 in
39:56such an environment was exceptional
39:59training, in the sense that managing to
40:02slowly prove yourself and become, um,
40:06let's say credible and authoritative,
40:09obviously with great difficulty. It was
40:13an important training ground, it was
40:15also very frustrating. I won't hide
40:17that because it was a difficult
40:19environment and it is an environment
40:21that struggles to change; you can see
40:23it even now, just look at photos when
40:25there is some sports executive,
40:27president, and so on, and you can see
40:29both the gender and the age. But, um,
40:32it served me a lot, it served me a lot
40:35because, um, to manage to impose
40:39yourself in an environment of that type
40:41, um, you have to use the right tools;
40:44because if you want to get pissed off,
40:46you have 50 reasons a day, and it's not
40:48that I never did, but you have to
40:50choose carefully the moments in which
40:53you have to dig in your heels. While
40:56for all other cases, I must say that an
40:58exceptional tool was irony. Which often
41:02wasn't perceived by the person I was
41:04talking to, but at the very least it
41:06helped me get through that moment
41:08somehow, trying to I mean, I would tell
41:12myself, I thought, "That was a good
41:14joke." In fact, it wasn't understood,
41:17but I did make a good joke. But a
41:21sincere question, um, I am here on
41:23stage, I am a man, I am with two women
41:26who objectively, objectively have much
41:28more power than I do, have achieved
41:30much more than I have; there is my boss
41:33, there is the mayor of a large Italian
41:35city, and yet I am a man, and therefore
41:38, for this reason, in this society, I
41:40am in a position of privilege compared
41:43to you. I sincerely ask, in a very
41:47simple and quick way, for it to be
41:49explained to me in front of them: what
41:51is my...how does this privilege of mine
41:53as a man manifest itself in this
41:55society?
41:58>> The answers to this question can be
42:00very short or very long. Um, I’ll
42:04take the short route, obviously. How
42:07does it manifest? Already in the fact
42:10that we have to explain it to you, I
42:12mean—no, but with respect, with
42:14respect. We don't have to explain it to
42:20you, so.
42:21>> Absolutely.
42:24>> It’s kind of like that, in the sense
42:26that: I see it even in many men I
42:28associate with in my, let's say,
42:30political environment now. Uh, men,
42:35maybe especially over a certain age:
42:37they come in, they say something, they
42:39make a joke; the data isn't quite right
42:41, the percentage is approximate, the
42:43speech is banal and doesn't get to the
42:45point, they even use a few wrong words,
42:47but anyway, come on, great job, move on
42:49. You take the microphone and if,
42:54instead of 32.3, you give a 12th figure
42:56, the next day people arrive saying you
42:59don't even know what you're talking
43:01about. Look at her, look at this Barbie
43:04here who doesn't even know what she's
43:06talking about. There, that’s the
43:07difference. It's a bit like this, and
43:10also the fact that, um, women always
43:13have a double standard. I mean, I’ve
43:17never heard remarks about the private
43:20or public life or the clothing of my
43:23male colleagues; I mean, yes, there’s
43:26the one who might make an impromptu
43:28joke once every six months, but it
43:31doesn't become a topic of discussion.
43:35And yet for women, there’s the issue:
43:37if you had children, why did you have
43:38children? Then, why aren't you with
43:40your children? If you didn't have them,
43:41why didn't you have them, didn't you
43:43contribute to this country's birth rate
43:44? If you're pretty, why are you pretty
43:46—then you must be dumb; and so, if
43:48you're ugly, heavens forbid, you can't
43:49be ugly. So, I wouldn't want to make
43:52quotes, but it's also a bit vulgar, so
43:55I won't, but regarding an unattractive
43:57woman who wasn't easy to approach,
43:59let's say, from a politician of the
44:01past, defining one of the greatest
44:04political figures in history. There,
44:07this is a woman's life, this is it. It
44:11is in politics, but the reasoning I
44:13make is: if a privileged woman in power
44:16feels it, do we have any idea what life
44:18can be like for a woman who isn't
44:20privileged, doesn't have power, maybe
44:23doesn't have a good job, has to run
44:25after a thousand commitments, and
44:27services that are missing? Uh, how
44:30impactful can this question you asked
44:34me be? There. Um, just think that I
44:37already have such an articulate answer,
44:40even though I am the mayor of the city
44:43of Genoa, and I feel this difference so
44:45violently against me. Think about how
44:49violent it really is, because I am
44:51speaking to you from a position of
44:53absolute privilege in every respect,
44:55yet I still have plenty to note and
44:57major things to tell you about. So,
45:00think about the daily life of a woman
45:02in the working world, but not only in
45:04the working world. Think about economic
45:07violence, domestic violence, the gender
45:10pay gap—well, it’s too long, but
45:13you know what I mean.
45:18>> Thank you.
45:22>> On this subject. Yesterday, I happened
45:26to be talking to a somewhat elderly
45:28cardiologist, and he told me, "I am in
45:29favor of establishing' blue quotas '"
45:31—quotas for men. We were talking
45:33about something else, obviously. He
45:36says—I asked him what he meant by "
45:38blue quotas," and he told me, "There
45:39are no more male doctors, only women
45:41are enrolling in medical school, and
45:43it's a problem because hospitals can't
45:45hire all these women since they end up
45:46having children." Talk about not
45:49understanding what you're saying.
45:51>> Everything is wrong from the very first
45:52thing you said.
45:53>> I was so, let’s say, stunned at that
45:55moment that I would have said just
45:57about anything. Anyway, now the
46:00question I imagine you are asked every
46:02single day is exactly this: if you are
46:04at work and you are a man, you are at
46:06work and you have kids; if you are a
46:08woman, where did you leave the kids,
46:09right? So, the question: how do you
46:13reconcile work and private life?
46:16>> I always tell this story about the
46:18difference I understood immediately as
46:20soon as I had my son, Eugenio. When
46:22people met my husband, they would ask
46:24him, or they ask him, "How is Eugenio?"
46:26To me, they ask, "Where did you leave
46:28Eugenio?" I don’t know, under a
46:29bridge? Where do you leave him? My son
46:30will be with my mother or with his
46:32father, right? There he is, there’s
46:34Eugenio. There. And yes, there is
46:37clearly this approach from society that
46:39asks you where you left your child, as
46:41if, you know, if you aren't there,
46:42there is no one else. And it’s
46:46difficult. It’s difficult because the
46:48tools are not there. It’s difficult
46:51because it’s true that in the working
46:53world, women, especially young ones,
46:54are evaluated based on: have they
46:56already had children? Haven't they had
46:58them? Are they staying home? Are they
46:59not staying home? But there is also an
47:02issue linked to services, because many
47:05women end up staying home because there
47:08are no services to support a woman who
47:11is working with a newborn. This is also
47:14part of the issue. Well, um, a major
47:17measure that could have been taken by a
47:20government led by the first woman in
47:22history certainly should have been to
47:24create the conditions, the conditions
47:31for women, considering also how dear
47:33the issue of birth rates is to the
47:36right, in their DNA. We on the left
47:39also like children, we are pleased that
47:42people have children, but we also say
47:45that tools and services are needed.
47:49Well, um, many years of a stable
47:51government, which is a great stroke of
47:53luck because it allows you to implement
47:56measures that governments lasting a
47:58year and a half or two years cannot
48:00manage, could have allowed for family
48:03policies, and family policies are
48:05policies on services. 0-6 services,
48:09care services, because when there is a
48:11problem in the family, it is the women
48:13who stay at home, or switch to
48:14part-time, or don't advance in their
48:16careers, and that is the reality, isn't
48:18it? So, on this, forget the budget law.
48:23In fact, I replied to the cardiologist,
48:25perhaps in the future, even if there
48:27are many female doctors, maybe there
48:29will be husbands at home taking care of
48:30the child. It was a scenario that
48:32destabilized him; he said, "No, the
48:34future." Fantasy that turns into horror
48:37, exactly. Um, I wanted to give the
48:39floor to Carlo for another
48:41>> I'll leave the final question to you.
48:43Obviously.
48:44>> The final question was simply because
48:47you mentioned her, that is, Giorgia
48:49Meloni, a mother, Christian, married
48:51like you, but you said the secular
48:53nature of institutions remains the
48:55cornerstone. What is the biggest
48:59difference between you and Giorgia
49:01Meloni? We are
49:05>> Thank you for everything. Have a good
49:07day. A beautiful day, but let's say
49:10it's also lunchtime. Um, well, first of
49:14all, well, I am accustomed—and for
49:16this I thank the Olympic Committee
49:19because President Malagò and the whole
49:22structure taught me—respect for
49:25institutions, and that is the first
49:27point. It is not, it is not, it will
49:39not be my intention, let's say, to lash
49:42out vehemently, telling you what, in my
49:45opinion, the differences are. I am, in
49:48any case, talking about a woman who, in
49:50her 40s, became the first female Prime
49:52Minister in Italy. Many, many things,
49:56many points, clearly distance me from
49:59her. Um, I must say that I believe an
50:07opportunity was lost for the women of
50:09this country to see a serious change of
50:12course, which is neither right nor left
50:14, in the quality of life for women in
50:16Italy. That is what we could have
50:20expected. Then, a government faces
50:26multiple demands—thousands of them.
50:30There are a whole series of
50:32international convergences and
50:33emergencies, but many years of stable
50:36government could have implemented
50:38policies that I believe would also
50:40generate a lot of support, because
50:42women do go out and vote. For example,
50:46in the elections that saw me elected
50:48mayor, more women voted than men. So, I
50:52think this is an element that has been
50:55missing in recent years, and I’ll
50:58conclude with this: the representation
51:01of women in the rooms where it counts.
51:07This is what is expected when a woman
51:09is in a position of power—that in
51:11some way she not only remembers the
51:14hard work that women do every day in
51:16our country at all levels, but also
51:18that she gives recognition to women's
51:21skills where it is necessary. I speak
51:25for what I have been able to do in my
51:27own small way, which is clearly not
51:29being Prime Minister, but being the
51:31mayor of a very important city
51:33nonetheless. We have the cabinet with
51:36the most women in the history of Italy
51:38in terms of proportion, and I appointed
51:41the first female president in the
51:43history of Palazzo Ducale, the first
51:45female president at the national
51:47theater, the first female member of the
51:49port system authority—appointed by
51:51the Municipality of Genoa, a lawyer and
51:54a woman. So, um, it’s not a men
51:59versus women thing, it’s not. But if
52:03we look at the percentages of
52:05representation, we understand that
52:07whoever tells you they are against
52:10gender quotas doesn't know how to read
52:12and doesn't see the country's data,
52:14because I come from an environment—
52:17sports management—that would have
52:19zero women without gender quotas, zero.
52:23And, so to speak, I am a bug in that
52:25system. I mean, I’m not someone who "
52:28made it"; I’m someone who was lucky
52:31enough to be noticed by President
52:33Malagò, who chose a young woman who
52:35might have had the right qualifications
52:37. A matter of chance, a confluence of
52:40events: there is no system that guides
52:42you there. So, I will conclude by
52:44saying that a woman of power—immense
52:47power, like the most powerful person in
52:50the country—should create a new
52:52ministry (and I always say this), not
52:55for equal opportunities, but for equal
52:58probabilities. Because, honestly, for
53:01someone to tell me that I have the
53:03opportunity to do whatever I want in
53:042026, in a democratic Republic like
53:06Italy...now, I would even like to say
53:07—well, I won't say it in Roman
53:09dialect, but, you know, thank goodness,
53:10really. We understand each other.
53:14>> But, um,
53:16>> what are the actual chances of this
53:19happening? It is clear that a woman can
53:22become a mayor, she can become a CEO,
53:24she can become anything she wants,
53:26that's clear, but it happens because it
53:28doesn't happen, and so the Ministry of
53:30Equal Opportunities should create the
53:32conditions for this to be able to
53:34happen. Well, answering your question,
53:38that is an opportunity that, in my
53:40opinion, has been missed in recent
53:43years.
53:45>> Silvia Salis, thank you for being here
53:49with us and for bullying me on stage
53:51after I had bullied.
53:53>> Thank you. Thank you very much.

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