Christopher Wylie on data privacy and social media giants | The National Interview — Transcript

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1. 0:04if mr. Zuckerberg and Miss Sandberg blow
2. 0:06off a subpoena by the Canadian
3. 0:08Parliament I think it speaks to the
4. 0:11contempt that they show for domestic
5. 0:12pledges legislators in the jurisdictions
6. 0:15they're working in and that's not
7. 0:16acceptable
8. 0:17so that was NDP MP Charlie Angus on what
9. 0:20he says is a lack of response from
10. 0:23Facebook's top two executives Mark
11. 0:25Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg to a
12. 0:27parliamentary subpoena in Ottawa two
13. 0:30days from now they are supposed to face
14. 0:32lawmakers from eight countries including
15. 0:34Canada the last time this grand
16. 0:37committee met in the UK Zuckerberg was a
17. 0:40no-show famously Facebook's motto was
18. 0:43move fast and break things well it's
19. 0:46common now to wonder if Facebook has
20. 0:48actually broken privacy maybe even
21. 0:50democracy and a lot of that wandering
22. 0:53began with Canadian Christopher Wiley
23. 0:55the whistleblower and activist warned
24. 0:58the world about the intersection of tech
25. 1:00private data and political power and as
26. 1:03he made clear to Ian his work is far
27. 1:05from over
28. 1:08he was relatively unknown just over a
29. 1:11year ago but now in some circles
30. 1:14Christopher Wiley is practically a
31. 1:16household name the data scientist who
32. 1:21blew the lid off the Facebook Cambridge
33. 1:23analytical scandal a breach that
34. 1:25affected 87 million people personal
35. 1:28information was harvested and it was
36. 1:31used to profile people on Facebook with
37. 1:33political messages and disinformation
38. 1:36campaigns that many believe influenced
39. 1:38the 2016 US election and the brexit vote
40. 1:44that there could have been a different
41. 1:46time in the referendum you know had
42. 1:50there not been in my view G James the
43. 1:52revelations set off a media firestorm
44. 1:54and suddenly Facebook seem vulnerable in
45. 1:58the months that followed while he has
46. 2:00become much more than a whistleblower
47. 2:01but almost an evangelist for limiting
48. 2:04the power of big tech companies like
49. 2:06Facebook calling for regulations a code
50. 2:09of ethics for software engineers and of
51. 2:11course making sure all of us who use
52. 2:13social media and tech are aware of the
53. 2:16risks I caught up with Christopher Wiley
54. 2:19recently in Vancouver hey well so thank
55. 2:22you very much for doing this and it's
56. 2:25really interesting to finally see you in
57. 2:27person I feel like I know you because
58. 2:28I've seen so much of you over the last
59. 2:30year but and vice versa when I was
60. 2:32growing up I watched you on TV -
61. 2:34excellent finally meet that's right yeah
62. 2:36you have been at the forefront of this
63. 2:40awakening really in the last 13 months
64. 2:43how much safer are things now than they
65. 2:46were a year ago
66. 2:48I wouldn't I wouldn't say that things
67. 2:50are safer per se I think that there's
68. 2:52more awareness so you know the way I
69. 2:56think about it is that a lot of these
70. 3:00platforms despite the fact that they
71. 3:01talk about themselves as services with
72. 3:04terms and conditions and opt-ins they're
73. 3:05not there architectures in other domains
74. 3:08where infrastructure is at play whether
75. 3:10that's a physical architecture or you
76. 3:14know an energy infrastructure water
77. 3:16infrastructure we don't talk about you
78. 3:19know personal responsibility there we
79. 3:22talk about is what's being built safe
80. 3:25right and so what I feel like you know
81. 3:30has happens with Facebook is that
82. 3:32they've built an architecture without
83. 3:33fire exits right with faulty wiring and
84. 3:36instead they've just said well we're
85. 3:39going to put some terms and conditions
86. 3:40on the door and let people walk in and
87. 3:42just call it our user experience and so
88. 3:44I think that we really need to start
89. 3:46having a conversation about are the
90. 3:49architectures that being built are they
91. 3:51safe like the reality is that just like
92. 3:54how electricity is absolutely essential
93. 3:56to the functioning of a
94. 3:58person in modern society using the
95. 4:00internet also is and so people don't
96. 4:02actually have a choice as to whether to
97. 4:04opt in or opt out because if you if you
98. 4:07if you say to a person alright well if
99. 4:09you want to protect your you know human
100. 4:11rights your privacy rights don't use the
101. 4:15Internet I mean it's like saying if you
102. 4:17don't want to be electrocuted don't use
103. 4:19buildings and what I'm saying is that
104. 4:21currently these big tech platforms do
105. 4:24not want to take responsibility they
106. 4:26want to take the data they want to
107. 4:28monetize you and make money off of you
108. 4:30but when there's a problem
109. 4:31they want to push it to something else
110. 4:33and say it's really complicated and for
111. 4:36me when I hear that I I hear you know a
112. 4:38company like Boeing say yeah well
113. 4:41aerospace engineering is really
114. 4:42complicated and sometimes their planes
115. 4:44follow this guy right we would not
116. 4:46tolerate that so you know if for me
117. 4:48Facebook's defense is the best argument
118. 4:51to say why we should be regulating them
119. 4:52because it is complicated so we need to
120. 4:55ensure that they perform due diligence
121. 4:57on their products before they release
122. 4:59them into the public so if the
123. 5:00Government of Canada came to you and
124. 5:02maybe they have and said how do we do
125. 5:05this properly because you know part of
126. 5:06this too is the internet and social
127. 5:09media can give voice to people in a good
128. 5:12way if you can it can I'll you know
129. 5:15break down barriers and and allow
130. 5:17freedom of expression and presumably you
131. 5:19don't want to restrict that
132. 5:21unnecessarily so what what is it that
133. 5:24needs to be regulated I think that
134. 5:25actually one of the the best places to
135. 5:27start is actually not just imposing
136. 5:30regulations on social media companies
137. 5:31but actually creating professional
138. 5:33conduct standards for engineers and
139. 5:35architects who work in software and data
140. 5:37science where people and professionals
141. 5:40are not only obligated to constantly
142. 5:44question themselves and the technologies
143. 5:47that they're building about how it can
144. 5:49go wrong or how it could be misused or
145. 5:51what its impact is going to be on public
146. 5:52health or public safety or democracy but
147. 5:55also empower people who see things
148. 5:58happening inside of these companies
149. 6:00before they're actually built and
150. 6:02empower them to say no actually this is
151. 6:05unethical and empower them where they
152. 6:08can't be retaliated against let's talk
153. 6:10about
154. 6:11the consumers the users the the the
155. 6:14people out there who are embracing
156. 6:15social media yeah I sense that some
157. 6:19people have feel paranoid about social
158. 6:22media now certainly many people feel
159. 6:24anxious is that how people should be
160. 6:27feeling that the users of social media
161. 6:29I think sceptical and questioning you
162. 6:35know our healthy things I think what's
163. 6:40important for people to really start
164. 6:41thinking about is not just what's
165. 6:43happening right now but what is the
166. 6:46trends of these big tech companies and
167. 6:49where that might end up in five 10 20
168. 6:51years from now so when you look at
169. 6:53patent applications from Google or from
170. 6:55Facebook or Amazon where you where they
171. 6:59want to design essentially surveillance
172. 7:01networks inside of physical constructed
173. 7:03space right including in your living
174. 7:05room where for the first time in human
175. 7:06history you are sitting in your own
176. 7:09house and you are never alone because
177. 7:12the ambient environment is watching you
178. 7:14thinking about you and constantly trying
179. 7:17to seek to change influence and optimize
180. 7:20your behavior and if if we put people in
181. 7:23an environment where their house thinks
182. 7:26about them and constantly talks to an ad
183. 7:29network and that ad network also talks
184. 7:32to their children's toys and that it
185. 7:34talks to your car and your car decides
186. 7:36whether or not you should be on time for
187. 7:38work depending on the subscription
188. 7:40package that you have for the
189. 7:41self-driving features of that car where
190. 7:43your refrigerator starts buying things
191. 7:45for you right where all the sudden you
192. 7:48become completely infantilized in your
193. 7:51life because everything around you is
194. 7:54thinking about you and seeking to change
195. 7:56the influence your behavior and I feel
196. 7:58like that could go terribly terribly
197. 7:59wrong are there clear do's and dont's
198. 8:01right now when you have purchased or
199. 8:06subscribes to a smart device service
200. 8:09software platform etc understand that
201. 8:12those things are often interconnected
202. 8:15and that what they do now is not
203. 8:19necessarily how they want to monetize it
204. 8:22five ten years from
205. 8:23right so when you look at things like
206. 8:25genetic tests and you know ancestry
207. 8:28tests and all that you know it might be
208. 8:29fun to see you know genetically where
209. 8:33you're from in the world but at the Sun
210. 8:35at the same time take a step back and go
211. 8:37what happens if this gets integrated
212. 8:39with an insurance company for example if
213. 8:42you're in the United States right you
214. 8:43know what if what if this gets
215. 8:44integrated with some other kinds of
216. 8:47consumer credit profiling right what
217. 8:49happens when actually I haven't even
218. 8:51used this test but my cousin has and an
219. 8:54insurance company thing acquires that
220. 8:56company and then profiles me via what my
221. 8:59cousin did right and all the sudden it
222. 9:02and this is what I'm saying is it's
223. 9:04actually a really hard and insidious
224. 9:05problem because even if you do not use a
225. 9:08lot of these platforms or services they
226. 9:11still can profile you and seek to
227. 9:14influence you and so the thing that I
228. 9:18would say is that if people are
229. 9:19concerned about where we're going with
230. 9:22technology call your MP and tell them
231. 9:25about it or call Facebook and tell them
232. 9:27about it just tell the people who are
233. 9:29actually making or responsible or
234. 9:31empower to change it that you don't like
235. 9:34where we're going so given everything
236. 9:36you've experienced and seemed the good
237. 9:39and bad in the last year or so do you
238. 9:42actually think calling Facebook and or
239. 9:45calling your MP will make a difference
240. 9:47well it's if if we say that you know
241. 9:52public pressure on companies and
242. 9:55politicians doesn't work then we've got
243. 9:57a bigger problem right then we're saying
244. 10:00you know our whole democratic process
245. 10:02doesn't work so I think that people need
246. 10:04to try you know so you're optimistic I'm
247. 10:08sensing some optimism here I'm I have to
248. 10:11be optimist i if I'm not optimistic
249. 10:14we're heading to a really terrible place
250. 10:15right have you seen the movie wall-e No
251. 10:17so in wall-e
252. 10:18you've got a robot that gets sent to
253. 10:20earth it's the Pixar movie and earth is
254. 10:23destroyed because of climate change and
255. 10:25all these people now live in spaceships
256. 10:27and they live in these little customized
257. 10:29entertainment pods and they're these
258. 10:31sort of blob like humans that have
259. 10:33become infantilized because you know
260. 10:35computers just show them stuff all day
261. 10:37make a place really challenging and I
262. 10:42worry that that's our future we've
263. 10:43completely eviscerated the environment
264. 10:45and we've completely infantilized you
265. 10:47okay now you don't sell optimistic and
266. 10:49so what I'm saying is that you know as
267. 10:51cute as a movie wall-e is if you think
268. 10:54about it is that the future that we want
269. 10:55and so you know we need to take a step
270. 10:59back and go if we don't want that if you
271. 11:01don't want your children or your
272. 11:02grandchildren to live in that kind of
273. 11:04environment
274. 11:05you've got to speak up because it's the
275. 11:06only thing that you can do right I think
276. 11:10it would be unreasonable to say that
277. 11:12people should stop using all Facebook
278. 11:14Instagram Google whatever services
279. 11:17because it's going to be impossible to
280. 11:19be a functioning person in modern
281. 11:21society so we've got to put public
282. 11:24pressure on and change the the actual
283. 11:27way we talk about these platforms is not
284. 11:29these amazing things but actually with a
285. 11:32more skeptical eye and say actually what
286. 11:33are you trying to do what are you
287. 11:34planning on doing five years from now
288. 11:36why are you taking out all these patents
289. 11:38but this is the brilliant thing about
290. 11:40democracy is that if people mobilize and
291. 11:42put pressure on politicians they
292. 11:45eventually will respond how the civil
293. 11:47rights movement works this is how a lot
294. 11:49of social change works so you know it
295. 11:51can be as simple as calling up your MP
296. 11:54okay you sound optimistic again and you
297. 11:56also sound fascinating thank you very
298. 11:58much fantastic Thanks