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Christopher Hitchens vs John Lennox | Is God Great? Debate — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:11[Music]
0:22good
0:23evening thank you all for being here um
0:26tonight we're pleased to be hosting
0:28Oxford University's mathematician
0:30professor John Lennox and acclaimed
0:31journalist Christopher Hitchens and what
0:33I'm sure will be a memorable evening for
0:35all of us of course as most of you know
0:38this event was originally slotted to be
0:40between author and pol political
0:42Observer denish duza and Mr Hitchens um
0:45but due to a major family surgery in
0:47India yesterday Mr duza could not join
0:51us Professor Lennox however was planning
0:53to be in the very seats that you now
0:55occupy um and so when we discovered that
0:57we asked him if he would was willing to
0:59participate rather than spectate and he
1:01has graciously agreed it was very
1:04providential or if you prefer Mr hitch's
1:07perspective it was almost providential
1:13almost I had to get that in there Mr
1:15Hitchens I'm going to get a lot of
1:16mileage out of that um we also thank
1:19fixo foundation for loaning Professor
1:21Lennox to us this evening and helping us
1:22promote the event since he actually was
1:24in town for a fixo function now with the
1:28help of more people that can be named uh
1:30Dr Andy West Morland Dr Brad Creed
1:32University relations department student
1:34involvement University fellows many
1:36volunteers and our own tireless group of
1:38officers just to name a few we are now
1:41pleased to be hosting a very
1:42high-profile event on a very important
1:44topic indeed what topic could be more
1:48important and this is the socratic
1:50club's entire purpose to thoughtfully
1:52engage and explore life so-called great
1:55questions I will state publicly that the
1:57cratic Club is a Christian organization
2:00modeled after the Oxford organization of
2:02the 1940s and 50s which CS Lewis
2:04presided over but just because we have
2:07an opinion on these issues does not mean
2:09that we are incapable of objectivity if
2:12an idea cannot properly take its stand
2:14in the marketplace of ideas without
2:15collapsing if it cannot survive without
2:18constantly being guarded from outside
2:20attacks then it is not worth believing
2:22in the first place we however think that
2:25Christianity can take its St and it is
2:27with such confidence that we invite
2:29thoughtful opposition such as Mr
2:32Hitchens to engage Us in what we hope
2:34will be a very fruitful dialogue CS
2:37Lewis once noted in any fairly large and
2:39talkative Community such as a university
2:42there are always the there is always the
2:44danger that those who think alike should
2:45gravitate together into ceries where
2:48they will henceforth encounter the
2:49opposition only in the emasculated form
2:52of rumor and that The Outsiders say thus
2:54and thus the absent are easily refuted
2:57complacent dogmatism thrives and
2:59differences of opinion are embittered by
3:02group hostility each group hears not the
3:04best but the worst that the other groups
3:07can say Christian though he was I think
3:10that this is a sentiment which any
3:12thoughtful person can agree with and is
3:15exactly the problem we are trying to
3:16combat we want to bring the best of both
3:20sides to bear I think you will agree
3:22with me that we have done fairly well
3:23this evening we have not put the worst
3:25of each side out here but rather some of
3:27the best Minds that each has to offer it
3:29with this in mind that we hope you will
3:31listen carefully and respectfully to
3:33what each man has to say this evening
3:35finally before I uh turn over the floor
3:37I would like to remind you that filming
3:38and Flash photography are prohibited
3:41fixpoint Foundation is filming the event
3:43um and if you would like to get footage
3:45of the event you may contact them
3:46afterwards or on their website I will
3:49now turn over the floor to this
3:50evening's moderator Dr Christopher meus
3:52Dr meus is a professor of English here
3:54at sford the director of the recently
3:56founded University fellows program and
3:58recent winner of the mon teaching Award
4:01of which he was very deserving if I may
4:03say so he's also the faculty sponsor of
4:05the socratic club and something of a
4:07mentor to myself personally if my
4:09classes have been any indicator at all I
4:12think that I can say he has the gift of
4:13moderating in the socratic style which
4:15happens to be very fitting for his role
4:17this evening and it is with that that I
4:19turn the floor over to Dr Chris
4:23matus I'll try to get us
4:28going thank you very much Michael and on
4:31behalf of the Sanford faculty
4:33Administration and staff I welcome
4:34everybody to campus this evening now
4:37before we begin the actual debate I want
4:39to briefly and very briefly introduce
4:41our two speakers and then go over the
4:43ground rules for this evening now our
4:45first participant sitting immediately to
4:47my left is Mr Christopher Hitchens Mr
4:50Hitchens is a journalist a literary
4:51critic and a political commentator who
4:54is one of the most widely recognized
4:55public intellectuals of our day and
4:58although he's the author of 17 books he
5:00is perhaps best known for his most
5:02recent book God Is Not Great how
5:05religion poisons everything an
5:07international bestseller that among
5:09other things mounts a vigorous challenge
5:11to religious faith and its role in
5:13contemporary Global Society an
5:15independent thinker who resists
5:18classification he has carved out a
5:20unique place for himself in America's
5:22current political and social landscape
5:24please join me in welcoming to
5:25Birmingham Mr Christopher
5:28Hitchens
5:30[Applause]
5:41our second participant this evening is
5:43professor John Lennox Dr Lennox is
5:46Professor of mathematics at Oxford
5:47University and fellow in mathematics and
5:50the philosophy of science at Green
5:52templon College Oxford early in his
5:55career as senior scholar at Emanuel
5:57College Cambridge Professor Lennox ATT
5:59attended the last lectures of CS Lewis
6:02and since that time he has emerged as a
6:04Christian apologist in his own right
6:06although his speaking engagements have
6:08taken him all over the world he is
6:10perhaps best known to Birmingham
6:12audiences for his role in The God
6:14Delusion debate at UAB back in the fall
6:17of 2007 at this event Dr Lennox debated
6:21fellow Oxford professor and leading
6:23darwinist Richard Dawkins on the
6:25existence of God a debate that not only
6:28surprised many in the International
6:30academic Community for its spirited
6:32collegiality but also helped us set an
6:35example for the possibilities of cordial
6:37but productive debate across ideological
6:39lines please join me in welcoming back
6:42to Birmingham Dr John
6:54Lennox now I know we're all ready to go
6:57but I do need to say a few words about
6:58the format tonight
7:00um it's outlined a little bit in your
7:01program uh we'll begin with opening
7:03remarks each speaker will be allotted 15
7:06minutes uninterrupted to offer these
7:08opening remarks as the speaker nears the
7:11end of his allotted time I will signal
7:13him with the statement one minute
7:14remaining um near the end of that minute
7:17I will signal again 30 seconds remaining
7:19and should the speaker continue on I
7:21will be put in the unenviable position
7:23of having to cut him off and turn the
7:25floor over to his
7:27opponent um the same will happen at the
7:3010minute time lotted for rebuttal again
7:34as we near the time I will tell the
7:36speakers of one minute to go then I'll
7:39remind them of 30 seconds to go and then
7:41I will once again if they keep going be
7:43put in the unenviable position of having
7:45to cut one of our speakers off I spoke
7:47to both of the gentlemen backstage I
7:49told them how much I dislike being un
7:52envied so they have assured me that they
7:54will stay and act like perfect gentlemen
7:57and stay within their lotted time
7:59now the rebuttal period will be followed
8:02by questions from the audience but we're
8:04going to do this a bit different than
8:06you might have done in another kind of
8:08discussion like this we do not have
8:09microphones where you can ceue up
8:11instead we handed note cards to you this
8:13evening when you entered if at any time
8:15during the the discussion between the
8:18opening comments or the allotted time
8:20for autle you have a question please
8:22write that question down on that index
8:24card during the break between speakers
8:26say when Mr Hitchens has finished his
8:2815-minute opening remark
8:29if you wish pass your question to your
8:32right and we have volunteers who will
8:34pick up those questions in the aisle
8:37between segments those questions will be
8:39put in order for me excuse me and then I
8:42will take those questions and ask them
8:44of our two guests this
8:45evening so without any further delay
8:49let's begin our debate and Mr Hitchens
8:51has the honor of opening
8:54first thank you
8:58sir
9:03well let me Begin by thanking all of you
9:06ladies and gentlemen for coming by
9:08thanking
9:09you Christopher for that suspiciously
9:12tur grudging
9:16introduction um and by
9:18confessing that I'll have difficulty
9:20when I get back to the
9:22north persuading my my smart friends in
9:26New York that there's a Socratic Society
9:27in Birmingham Alabama at
9:30all I mean I told my Publishers when I
9:33started I want to I want to begin in
9:35Dixie I don't want to do the usual book
9:36tour I want to take the campaign through
9:40the South and they said but why would
9:42you want to do that I mean who doesn't
9:44know that it's one long white sheet toga
9:48party crosses crackling Merrily on the
9:51lawn in the night
9:53Breeze later on they repair to an
9:57illegal still or Hooch
10:00to reflect gloatingly on their multiple
10:03offenses against
10:05Chastity particular emphasis on the loss
10:07of virginity with domestic or even semi
10:10wild
10:13animals so it's always uh pleasure for
10:15me to go back to the the liberal
10:19consensus and say to them you know you'd
10:20be surprised by how quite a lot of that
10:22isn't really
10:24true I stick up for you guys when I can
10:26I really
10:27do um
10:31now I'm guessing that tonight I'm not
10:34speaking to a largely or predominantly
10:35Muslim or Jewish audience if I was
10:38believe me I would find try and find a
10:40way of unsettling you I'm guessing that
10:43those of you who are believers are
10:44probably of the Christian kind as you
10:46know the atheist position is the
10:48following that of the many hundreds if
10:50not thousands of gods and religions that
10:52Humanity has invented in its time we
10:55have three roughly uh and only three
10:59not roughly only three Alternatives in
11:02considering them one is that all of them
11:04are
11:05true one is that all of them are false
11:08and the other is that only one of them
11:10is
11:11true the first proposition is
11:12self-evidently absurd they can't all
11:14they can't conceivably all be true
11:16indeed there are mutually exclusive
11:18forms of
11:19Christianity um as just to take only one
11:23religion uh that all our false seems at
11:26least possible that only one is true is
11:29the position say of my opponent Dr
11:31Lennox I think must be the hardest
11:33single position to take but in the
11:36spirit of it I'll I'll assume
11:37Christianity and I'll just remind you of
11:40a novel that probably most of you won't
11:42have heard of but was once very famous
11:45it was it was called when it was dark
11:48has anyone heard of it or read it it was
11:50it was a huge bestseller just before the
11:52first world war it was by a man called
11:54guy Thorne and the the Mison s of the
11:57novel is this that news comes from
12:01Palestine that a grave has been opened
12:04and that in this grave the stone rolled
12:07away from the tomb on a on a on a stone
12:11inside is is the body of a man who's
12:13been scourged uh
12:16crucified uh had a crown of thorns
12:19pressed down on his head and has a
12:21terrible wound in his side almost
12:23perfectly preserved kadava and on the
12:26news of this on the news of this
12:28terrible archaeological Discovery uh
12:31there's a the world undergoes a complete
12:33moral collapse because without the
12:35resurrection or with rather with
12:36definite proof that there was no such
12:38thing that the resurrection was a
12:40fabrication there's no further moral
12:42restraint on Humanity people are
12:45coupling like beasts in the streets they
12:47give themselves up to plunder and theft
12:50and rape and murder and perjury without
12:52conscience the the a midnight of uh of
12:56civilization falls upon an unhappy World
12:59until it's finally discovered that the
13:01whole thing was a fabrication put around
13:03by Sinister Jewish people and
13:05journalists and other
13:06untrustworthy riffraff as a stunt and
13:09then people can go back to being moral
13:11again well you see where perhaps you can
13:13guess where I might be headed with this
13:16in my view if every one of the
13:18gods that have been discredited instead
13:21of the only the two or three left to us
13:24that haven't yet been completely shown
13:26up as man-made Fabrications and join
13:29joed Thor and ashteroth and hotle and
13:34the Aztec and all the others if all of
13:37these were proven to be fraudulent and
13:39false and man-made I believe our moral
13:41dilemmas would be exactly the ones we
13:44face now all of us atheist agnostic
13:48philosophical Socratic or True Believer
13:51we would still have to wonder about the
13:54purpose of our existence here we would
13:56still have to wonder about the origins
13:57of the cosmos and of nature we will
13:59still have to wonder about our duties to
14:02one another we would still have to
14:03wonder about how to build the just City
14:06how to reflect on truth and on beauty
14:09all of these dilemmas would remain
14:11exactly the way they are they unaltered
14:15by any
14:17Supernatural
14:19Dimension and our subject tonight is the
14:23the supernatural Dimension itself the
14:25chieftain of that Dimension the the
14:27concept of God so I want to Begin by
14:29clarifying why it is that I believe
14:31there is no such entity or person and I
14:33want to go on to say why I'm relieved
14:35when I reflect that this is so why I
14:37think it would be horrible if it were
14:39true or otherwise and I think I'd have
14:41to begin with a distinction between
14:43theism and deism even Thomas aquinas's
14:48uh famous five proofs of the existence
14:49of God for example are strictly speaking
14:53hardly theological at all they're
14:55essentially only
14:57deistic they are about first causes or
15:00uncaused potential or latent causes they
15:03derive the idea of a Creator from
15:05various gaps and from observation of The
15:08rhythms and the patterns of Nature and
15:11the cosmos and they postulate that these
15:13rhythms and patterns would make no sense
15:15without a first cause in short they
15:18postulate nothing more than the argument
15:20from design which as you all know is
15:22subject to a a reputation that says well
15:25if there was a designer then the
15:27designer must himself have been designed
15:29and threatens those who offer the case
15:32with a an infinite regression into a
15:35chaos however I I would say it's not
15:37possible to refute this argument
15:40conclusively or or utterly or
15:42finally uh only one can point out as I
15:45will some gross absurdities and
15:48inconsistencies in it but for this
15:50evening and for the purposes of tonight
15:52why don't I simply grant that it could
15:55be true that there was an original
15:57Creator and that that's a good and
15:59elegant explanation for how at least the
16:02cosmos and the process of life on Earth
16:04two quite different things got started
16:07why don't I just grant the deest his
16:09point after all in the time that I've
16:11written the most about the time of
16:13Thomas Jefferson and the time of Thomas
16:15Payne both of those gentlemen deists an
16:18intelligent person would probably have
16:19had no choice but to believe something
16:21very like that there's no Superstition
16:24to it there's no there's nothing
16:26Supernatural about it but it leaves the
16:29theist like my uh learned opponent with
16:31all if I make this concession it leaves
16:34him with all his work still to come he
16:38still has to show
16:40somehow not only that there is a God but
16:42that he he himself understands the mind
16:45of that God knows the will or can
16:48interpret the will and wishes of that
16:51deity on such weighty questions as what
16:54is good what is evil uh what foods Maybe
16:59requisite or what foods may be profane
17:02uh what sexual Partnerships are allowed
17:05uh what sexual positions indeed uh are
17:08elicit or legitimate um what days of the
17:11week are holy or otherwise uh whe When
17:13or whether it is requisite to mutilate
17:16the genitals of children major questions
17:19where someone has to say yes I know we
17:21must do this because I happen to know
17:24what God wants us to do now it's my
17:26submission ladies and gentlemen and I
17:28think it's a fairly one that brilliant
17:30as a
17:31mathematician Dr Lennox may be no person
17:34no other human being no other primate no
17:37fellow mammal of mine however clever
17:39they may be is in any position to say
17:41that they know God's will or God's word
17:44or God's desire or intention this
17:46information is not accessible to human
17:49beings and therefore my first statement
17:51is this those who do claim that they
17:53know are already in a sense discredited
17:57uh they are deluded and in sense they
17:59they are they're the first ones who have
18:02to concede that the argument goes on
18:05without them because we have to be AED
18:08all of us more and more all the time
18:11more and more AED at that as we discover
18:15how much more there is to know by how
18:16little of it we do know or can know it's
18:19only those who say that they know they
18:21are certain who we have to distrust a
18:24priori if I can use that expression very
18:28well hoping I've established that point
18:30just for the sake of the
18:32debate uh we don't have a word adist
18:35though I think we should I would say I
18:38was an adist as well as an atheist I
18:40don't believe there was a prime mover I
18:42don't believe there was a first cause of
18:44a Divine kind I think we have better and
18:47further and brighter explanations for
18:49the origins of things than the idea of a
18:52supernatural first cause but some also
18:54would say we don't even really need the
18:55word atheist because after all I don't
18:58require a special term when I tell you I
19:01don't believe in a tooth fairy you don't
19:03say well what's the word for someone who
19:05doesn't do that when I say I don't
19:07believe in witches and I don't believe
19:08in the biblical injunction to kill them
19:10either um they don't say why do you what
19:13is it to be a non-believer in witches
19:16and Witchcraft when I say to a Muslim
19:19your Prophet believes in dust devils and
19:21Gins and the The Haunting spirits of the
19:24of the desert I there a shows what
19:26nonsensical peasant Superstition is
19:28involved D in the in the Muslim
19:30profession of Faith no one says to me
19:32what what word are you using to say you
19:34don't believe in dust devils and jins I
19:37think I I can be generally credited with
19:39having good reasons for my doubt however
19:42I think that the challenge is a fair one
19:45because I think we are divided as
19:47between those of us who attribute our
19:50presence here to the laws of biology and
19:52the laws of physics and those of us who
19:55and we're modest in doing that I think
19:57we say we submit ourselves to the
19:58evidence and even if it comes up with
20:00conclusions that aren't very welcome to
20:02us we will accept them if they're well
20:04founded and those who are conceited
20:07enough I would say arrogant enough in
20:09fact to think that they are here as the
20:11consequence of a Divine Design there's
20:14all the difference in the world between
20:15those two worldviews and the big
20:18difference is one of them has evidence
20:19for it and the other doesn't and one of
20:22them will say in advance what would
20:23refute it I I can tell you if you ask me
20:26what evidence if presented would mean
20:28have to change my mind and the theist
20:30will never do that he will never tell
20:32you in advance show me this and I'll
20:34stop believing in it there's always an
20:36infinite replenishment of the infinitely
20:39renewable resource of Faith going on in
20:42fact it's the humility of it that makes
20:44me laugh at it in a way the most they
20:47say that they're humble these Believers
20:49in God they want to be written up as as
20:52as as modest because they think that of
20:56course the God tells them their worms or
20:58originally sinful ingrates
21:01incurable uh made out of dust in one
21:04narrative out of a clot of blood in the
21:06quranic narrative bad off to a pretty
21:08shaky start uh con condemned since an
21:12original fall of Man nonetheless cheer
21:14up the universe is designed with you in
21:18mind this is a depraved form of sedom
21:20masochism in in in my view it's not good
21:23for you to go from this terrible
21:26abjection and surom in the one instance
21:29to this belief that you are the center
21:31of creation and the object of the cosmos
21:34in in the other it's it's a terrible
21:36alternation an neurotic alternation
21:38between being much too surval and much
21:40too
21:42arrogant but just locally what was what
21:45would it be to believe this suppose you
21:47did believe that everything that had
21:49brought us here was by
21:51Design uh well we know that
21:5599.9% of all species that have ever
21:58existed just on this planet have become
22:02extinct so Heaven has already watched
22:05Almost 100% of its creation die off
22:09often in very unpleasant callous
22:11circumstances with folded arms right and
22:14that's billions of years of geological
22:18time some people say the homo sapiens
22:21has been around for 100,000 years some
22:23for as long as a quarter of a million no
22:25one says less than 100,000 Francis
22:27Collins the Great Christian believer who
22:29did the Human Genome Project says
22:31certainly 100,000 I'll take a 100
22:33Richard Dawkins thinks it's more I'll
22:35take a 100 what does it mean if we're
22:37divinely supervised and divinely created
22:40and what looked out for it means that
22:43for 98 or so thousand of those
22:46years humans Homo sapiens were being
22:50born dying half of them in child birth I
22:53would think life expectancy maybe of 20
22:56years maybe 30 people dying essentially
22:59of their teeth out of hideous diseases
23:02living in permanent fear where are the
23:04earthquakes coming from where are the
23:07lightning strikes coming from why is all
23:09this where what are these diseases that
23:11hit us we don't know about microbes you
23:13have no idea um that's to say nothing
23:15about the fights with neighboring tribes
23:18over women over land over meat over
23:20subsistance the the the torture the the
23:23violence the cruelty uh that goes
23:26on um I don't need to line all of it I
23:29hope you can picture it for yourself
23:3198,000 the first 98,000 years Heaven
23:34watches this going on with perfect insus
23:37and something like 2 to 3,000 years ago
23:39decides right we have to intervene
23:42now we have to do something about this
23:45well what would be the best way of
23:46intervening to try and redeem this
23:48rather Bleak picture what about having
23:51somebody tortured to death in an obscure
23:53part of the Middle
23:55East that ought to cure it or if you're
23:59a Muslim what about getting an
24:00illiterate epileptic Shepherd to start
24:02babbling and saying that he'd been
24:04talking to an
24:05archangel or what or what about um
24:09inventing the figure of of Moses in the
24:12a mountain that's never yet been found
24:14by any geographer Mount Si that's what
24:16you'd have to believe I've got a minute
24:19right that's what you'd have
24:21to believe and that's why I ask myself
24:24why do the worshippers of this God want
24:27to convict him of being such a crummy
24:29designer most of his Creations die off
24:33and the rest suffer miserably and and
24:35the Redemptive offers just don't somehow
24:38take of being cruel and capricious and
24:41bungling and and
24:43incompetent why and callous uh as a
24:48father and so since this is as far as I
24:50can get now I have to tell you why I
24:53don't think the idea of an eternal
24:55father is a good one in any case when I
24:58next get the chance to draw breath but
25:01thank you for staying with me this
25:03[Applause]
25:15far
25:24okay well good evening ladies and
25:27gentlemen and thank you very much for
25:28coming it's a great pleasure for me to
25:30be back again in this
25:33University and I'm delighted to once
25:36more meet Christopher Hitchens it's a
25:39delight to meet an Englishman who's an
25:41American citizen on his own
25:44territory I agree very much with
25:47Christopher Hitchens it is
25:50repudiation of many of the evils that he
25:53claims have been done in the name of God
25:57but I've learned distinguish between the
25:59greatness of God and the inexcusable
26:03evil that has been done by those
26:05professing his name and so I do not
26:09deduce that God Is Not Great and that
26:12religion poisons everything after all if
26:15I fail to distinguish between the genius
26:18of Einstein and the abuse of his science
26:21to create weapons of mass destruction I
26:24might be tempted to say science is not
26:26great and Technology poisons
26:29everything what is
26:32more as I look back at the evils of
26:35atheist regimes of the 20th century I
26:39might also be tempted ladies and
26:41gentlemen to say atheism Is Not Great it
26:44has poisoned
26:46everything as it is I hold that science
26:50shows some of the greatness of God the
26:54famous physicist James Clark Maxwell who
26:56discovered electromagnetic Theory the
26:58inscribed above the door in his
27:00laboratory in Cambridge University the
27:02words great are the works of the Lord
27:05studied by all who Delight in them yet
27:08Christopher hitchon says thanks to the
27:10telescope and the microscope religion no
27:13longer offers an explanation of anything
27:17I find it
27:19impossible I find it impossible as a
27:22scientist to take such a statement
27:24seriously as if using a microscope and a
27:26rembrand painting could prove the
27:28existence of rembrand himself the idea
27:31that God and science are mutually
27:33exclusive explanations of the universe
27:36is as wrong as saying that internal
27:39combustion and Henry Ford are mutually
27:41exclusive explanations of the
27:44automobile they are complimentary
27:47explanations one explains how it works
27:49the other why it
27:52exists to think that as the reach of our
27:55instruments increases the greatness of
27:58God the Creator somehow diminished is to
28:01make the mistake of confusing mechanism
28:03with agency when Newton discovered the
28:06law of gravity he didn't say now I know
28:08how the universe works I don't need God
28:12no his Wonder at how it was done
28:15increased his admiration for the Creator
28:17who'd done it that way and Newton wrote
28:20the most famous scientific Trea of all
28:22time the principia Mathematica in the
28:25hope that it would persuade the thinking
28:27man to believe in a
28:29deity telescopes can show us the Wonder
28:32of the night sky but science didn't put
28:36the stars there nor did the laws of
28:40biology and physics ladies and gentlemen
28:43they describe what is there they don't
28:45put it there Steven Hawkings says the
28:48usual approach of Science of
28:50constructing a mathematical model cannot
28:53answer the question why there should be
28:55a universe for the model to describe
28:59he then asks why does the universe go to
29:01all the bother of existing does it need
29:04a Creator yes it does need a Creator
29:08Alan Sandage widely regarded as one of
29:11the fathers of modern astronomy
29:13discovered
29:15quazars said I find it quite improbable
29:18that such order came out of chaos there
29:21has to be some organizing principle God
29:24to me is a mystery but is the
29:26explanation for the miracle of existence
29:29why there is something rather than
29:31nothing and another giant of cosmology
29:35aru penius won his Nobel Prize for
29:37discovering an echo of the Big Bang but
29:40penus could see how unimaginably greater
29:43is The God Who conceived of this
29:45beginning to SpaceTime in the first
29:47place astronomy says leads us to a
29:49unique event a universe which was
29:52created out of nothing one with a very
29:55delicate balance needed to provide
29:57exactly the right conditions required to
29:59permit life and one which has an
30:02underlying one might say Supernatural
30:06plan Einstein had the brilliant Insight
30:09that the speed of light was an absolute
30:11constant but what shall we say of the
30:13creative mind that said let there be
30:16light and there was light to measure the
30:19speed of light is one thing to create
30:22light is another far from science
30:25showing God Is Not Great as choper
30:28hitchon suggest the very opposite is the
30:30case it was belief in God that motivated
30:33the advance of Science in the 16th and
30:3617th
30:37centuries Galileo cernus Kepler Newton
30:41expected to find law in nature because
30:43they believed in a great
30:47lawgiver now so often we hear the new
30:51atheist talk about faith and deprecating
30:55it but I want to tell you that
30:57scientists are all people of Faith as
31:00Einstein saw they believe that the
31:03universe is accessible to the human mind
31:06and physics cannot explain that for the
31:08simple reason that you can't do physics
31:12without believing that the universe is
31:14intelligible so scientists required
31:17faith and yet I read Christopher
31:19Hitchens saying if one must have faith
31:22to believe in something then the
31:24likelihood of that something having
31:26truth or value is considered
31:27considerably
31:28diminished pardon well one must have
31:32faith that the universe is intelligible
31:34to do science so I am to deduce am I
31:37that the likelihood of science having
31:39truth or value is considerably
31:41diminished exit science then and I
31:45presume that Christopher Hitchens like
31:46most of the rest of us believes in his
31:48own
31:49existence yes am I to take it then that
31:53the likelihood he really does exist is
31:55considerably
31:56diminished his state
31:58m is a self-refuting
32:02statement and I find it ironical that
32:04the so-called new atheists are so
32:06passionate about ridding the world of
32:08faith that they appear to be blind to
32:10the fact that they themselves are driven
32:12by faith they believe that their minds
32:15can grasp truth they believe in science
32:17they believe that God Is Not Great yet
32:21Mr Hitchens informs us at a classic
32:23oxymoron our principles are not of faith
32:27our belief are not a belief the Mind
32:30boggles ladies and
32:33gentlemen that is not the only irony for
32:36the new atheists offer no ground for the
32:38faith that they themselves cannot do
32:41without after all if human life has been
32:43cobbled together by Mindless unguided
32:46processes why should we trust our
32:48cognitive faculties and the validity of
32:51any belief that they produce atheism and
32:54science included John Gray gets it ex
32:57exactly right modern humanism is the
33:00faith that through science humankind can
33:03know the truth and so be free but if
33:06Darwin's theory of natural selection is
33:08true this is impossible the human mind
33:11serves evolutionary success not
33:16truth well this reduces all rationality
33:19to zero and far from atheism being great
33:23it seems to me that it is irrational
33:25anti-scientific and incoherent
33:28even though emotionally its proponents
33:30seem unable to take this on
33:32board now as the early pioneers of
33:35science saw the rational justification
33:38of science is provided by the existence
33:41of the Creator who created not only the
33:44universe but the human mind that studies
33:46it in the beginning was the word and the
33:49Word was God all things were made by him
33:52that makes perfect sense to me as a
33:55mathematician science is important but
33:58it has its limitations it cannot answer
34:00the questions of a child what are we
34:02here for what is the meaning of life nor
34:05can it tell us whether literature or art
34:07is good or bad hence an atheism that
34:10insists that science is the only way to
34:12truth diminishes human beings this is
34:15very obvious to many of my Russian
34:18friends we thought we could abolish God
34:20and retain a value for human beings but
34:23we found we
34:26couldn't
34:28do away with the greatness of God ladies
34:30and gentlemen and you can do away with
34:33the nobility of human beings owed with
34:36all the potential of hearts and Minds
34:38made in God's image you also do away
34:41with their freedom you are left with a
34:43Mindless unguided procet that somehow
34:46threw humans up at its endless Lottery
34:48to exist without ultimate hope for a
34:50tiny moment only to be crushed by the
34:53same blind forces that produced them
34:55some Freedom that
34:59another evidence of the greatness of God
35:01consists in the ordinary freedoms that
35:04we often take for
35:05granted here's an influential German
35:08atheist thinker Jurgen habas and he says
35:11this Christianity and nothing else is
35:14the ultimate Foundation of Liberty
35:16conscience human rights and democracy
35:19the benchmarks of Western Civilization
35:22to this day we have no other option we
35:25continue to nourish ourselves from this
35:28Source everything else is postmodern
35:31chatter it was Christianity not atheism
35:34incidentally that originally gave us the
35:37universities that educated the new
35:39atheists gave them the Liberty that
35:41permits them to propagate their views
35:43and the law that protects them as well
35:45as the rest of
35:46us and yet Christopher Hitchens insists
35:49that the God he does not believe in is a
35:51tyrant and a bully as we've just heard I
35:55don't actually believe in such a god
35:57either it is so alien to my own
36:01knowledge and experience but I might
36:03point out as an aside that atheism is no
36:05solution to tyranny either as the
36:07bloodbath of the 20th century shows only
36:10too well but there's another deep
36:13problem here to say that God Is Not
36:16Great is a moral statement to say he's
36:20not he's tyrannical is a moral statement
36:22and that must be based on some moral
36:24standard otherwise you couldn't
36:26distinguish evil from its opposite but
36:29if there is no Eternal base for values
36:32external to humanity how can Mr hitson
36:35or anyone else's standards be anything
36:38but limited human conventions ultimately
36:41meaningless products of a blind andu
36:43guided evolutionary process how can
36:46random rotations and blind selection
36:49produce any morality at all let alone
36:51the kind of apparently Invincible
36:53morality that justifies the new atheist
36:55intolerance of religion John Gray points
36:58out that the new atheists defend liberal
37:00freedoms without asking where they come
37:03from hard atheists like n kamu and Sara
37:07will want to know how atheists can
37:09rationally justify their absolute
37:11sounding commitment to Timeless values
37:14without implicitly invoking God they
37:17would say you cannot and Richard Dawkins
37:20gets close to hard atheism when he says
37:23that in a universe of blind physical
37:25forces you won't find any reason or
37:28Rhyme or any justice the universe has
37:31the properties that we should expect if
37:34there is no design no purpose no evil
37:36and no good DNA neither knows nor cares
37:41DNA just is and we dance to its music
37:44but if Hitler or Paul or you and I are
37:47simply dancing to our DNA no one can
37:49blame us for anything all morality is
37:52gone so the claim that God Is Not Great
37:55being a moral claim dissolves into to
37:57utter
37:59meaninglessness and here we meet a
38:00strange
38:02contradiction that the atheism seems to
38:04me ironically to deny the one thing that
38:07upholds moral values that is Justice for
38:11Millions ladies and gentlemen there is
38:13no justice in this life and according to
38:16atheism they will never get it after
38:18death since death's the end so the
38:21terrorists who danced their DNA on the
38:23bodies of their victims get away with it
38:26they will not get away with it ladies
38:28and gentlemen because here is another
38:31aspect of the greatness of God that he
38:34is the ultimate judge of
38:36mankind there is to be a judgment at
38:39which Justice will be done
38:42fairly in England at the moment atheists
38:45have paid for an advertising campaign
38:47where buses carry a message there's
38:49probably no God so stop worrying and
38:52enjoy your life why is it that atheists
38:55associate god with worry is that they
38:58fear to meet him as
39:00judge they don't like judgment but I
39:02can't help noticing sometimes how
39:04judgmental they
39:06are German Marxist thinker Max
39:09horkheimer said a very interesting thing
39:12he feared there might not be a god since
39:15then there would be no judgment and no
39:17justice and here we have a dilemma the
39:20problem of my human guilt on the one
39:22hand and my desire for justice on the
39:25other I want justice but what will
39:27Justice say to me and what about God is
39:31he really the despot they make him out
39:33to be no there's yet more to his
39:36greatness God is not only the great
39:38Creator a judge he's a god of Grace and
39:41love and the central claim of
39:43Christianity is this that as an
39:46expression of his love God himself
39:48became human the word became flesh
39:53Christ chose us as none other the
39:54greatness of God he made unque claims to
39:58be the truth to be the Son of God and
40:00back them up by a life and teaching
40:02without parallel but his moral teaching
40:05was not his main message his stated
40:08mission was to deal with the moral Chasm
40:10that separates us humans from God by
40:13taking our sins on
40:15himself ladies and gentlemen we
40:18scientists cannot even tell you what
40:20energy is so w don't be surprised if I
40:23cannot completely explain to you the
40:25deepest mystery of our universe versus
40:27history the death and resurrection of
40:30Jesus yet just as we see the effect of
40:33and use energy without completely
40:35understanding it what I do observe is
40:38the transformation the peace the hope
40:41that comes into the lives of ordinary
40:43men and women who learn to place their
40:44faith their confidence their trust in
40:47Christ as Savior and God I see in them
40:50and experience in myself a Transcendent
40:53sense of purpose that atheism does not
40:56have and a hope that atheism does not
40:59know it is here ladies and gentlemen I
41:03submit to you that the greatness of God
41:06is supremely Manifest thank
41:10[Applause]
41:20you Mr hitch now has 10 minutes for aut
41:24let me remind you again if you have
41:25questions please write them on the index
41:27cards and pass them to your right well
41:30let me do this in reverse order and see
41:31if I have enough time left over to
41:33complete my first burst as it were I
41:36think I gave you fair warning um ladies
41:38and gentlemen brothers and sisters that
41:40Dr lnox would have to claim to know more
41:42than he can possibly know he by no means
41:45let me down uh he knows that he's saved
41:49he knows who saved him he even knows who
41:52hung the Stars uh in the sky how he
41:55knows this I don't know it was was a
41:57braa performance in its way but I don't
41:59think if you're going to claim to know
42:01who put the Stars up there that you
42:03should be citing Albert Einstein if if
42:06there's a copy of my portable atheist on
42:08sale afterwards and I hope there is if
42:09it isn't it is available at fine
42:11bookstores everywhere um I have several
42:15pages of of painstaking denials bber
42:18Einstein that he had had or ever had had
42:21any belief at all of any sort in a
42:25personal God or a savior or or of divine
42:27revelation he was at pains to repudiate
42:30this and he thought it was both Sinister
42:32and childish as well as unscientific the
42:35furthest he would go would be an
42:37illustration of the distinction I
42:38labored in vain to make between deism
42:41and theism between between a name you
42:44might give to a process or an order or a
42:49a law of Nature and the idea of an
42:51intervening vengeful supervising
42:55caring God
42:57a personal one that's that's the only
43:00distinction I hope to make and it was
43:01one that Dr LX treated as if it was
43:04non-existent as you may have noticed
43:06Einstein may not be used by those who
43:09believe in Revelation or personal God
43:11now okay on the something and nothing
43:13question let's stay with science for a
43:15moment Edwin Hubble noticed a few years
43:17ago as many of you will know that the
43:19Universe was continuing to expand and at
43:22quite a rapid rate away from itself and
43:26but it was thought by people who were
43:27still thinking in what you might call
43:29Newtonian terms that though that rate of
43:31expansion was remarkable and rather
43:33alarming it would obviously have to
43:35start slowing down decelerating at a
43:37certain point to the contrary recently
43:39been discovered by very brilliant
43:41physicist Lawrence Krauss that in fact
43:43the rate of expansion is increasing and
43:45quite rapidly the universe is expanding
43:48very very fast very soon if we hadn't
43:50been around at this particular point in
43:52time there wouldn't be enough evidence
43:53left around in the red light shift for
43:56us to know that the big had ever even
43:57taken place we're only picking that up
43:59from signals from a long time ago which
44:01will soon be unintelligible in I'm
44:03saying soon using billions of years as a
44:07index of time of course light years if
44:10you will um not light years um the
44:13distances you know what I mean distances
44:15and times that are rightly called
44:18astronomical um what does this
44:20mean it means
44:23that though there is now something after
44:26all
44:27I am here I do firmly believe and I'm
44:29very happy to see all of you here too
44:32especially those of you who paid for
44:33your tickets um it means that very soon
44:36there will be
44:37nothing a lot of nothingness is headed
44:40our
44:42way it's going to be all over quite soon
44:45you can see it coming read the lawence
44:47crow he office it's going to explode
44:49away it's going to fall apart and
44:52if that is a couple of things don't
44:55happen sooner than that we can already
44:57see the Andromeda galaxy in the night
44:59sky you can actually see it some nights
45:01without really the aid of a telescope
45:02headed directly on collision course for
45:05our own we have an appointment ladies
45:07and gentlemen with the Andromeda galaxy
45:09it's going to crash right into ours the
45:12there's something now enjoy it while you
45:14can nothing is coming whose design is
45:17that may I inquire or perhaps before
45:20that it's very possible that before any
45:21of this happens we won't have to worry
45:23about it because our sun will simply
45:25swell up into a red dwarf our oceans
45:27will boil life on this planet will
45:29become extinct and then the sun will
45:31collapse into itself and go the way that
45:33millions and millions and millions of
45:35other stars have we can see them
45:36imploding and exploding and shooting
45:39themselves to death all over the sky as
45:41it is nothingness there's a lot of
45:43nothingness so those who want to claim
45:45the credit for the something who's what
45:48deity is going to claim the credit for
45:49the
45:51nothingness and who went to all this
45:53trouble this fantastic explosion of of
45:57of of nothingness these infinite spaces
45:59of
46:00nothingness uh and with the with the
46:02with the destiny of Destruction written
46:04in every
46:05Galaxy um in order to create this one
46:08privileged planet with this one very
46:10shivering uncertain vulnerable primate
46:13species on it that's only been here for
46:15100,000 suffering years and has only
46:17been offered Redemption for 2,000 look
46:20first upon this picture and on that look
46:22at the absolute extraordinary uh scale
46:26that's proposed on the on the one hand
46:27and the the absolutely not even
46:30microcosmic on the other and I don't
46:32believe you can possibly take any claim
46:34of religion seriously here whatever is
46:37the explanation for this people who say
46:39Well since we don't know we may as well
46:40say it's God are simply drumming their
46:43fingers they're wasting their time and
46:45they're trying to waste
46:47yours
46:50now on this question of who's boss and
46:53why I don't think the Eternal Father I
46:56idea is a good one um I'm sure I'm not
47:00the only father here I have three
47:02children my job as a father is to get
47:05out of their way to do my best for them
47:07and then make room for them what if I
47:09was to say to them oh don't worry I'll
47:11always be here not as in I'll always be
47:15here for you as in I'm never going away
47:18you'll never see the back of me you'll
47:20never get to say goodbye Daddy no no
47:22I'll always be here in fact I'll be here
47:25long after you've died
47:28in fact I'm rather looking forward to
47:29that because then I can sit in judgment
47:31on
47:32you this is not even a benevolent form
47:35of despotism is it when you allow
47:37yourself to think about it it's it's
47:40somewhat worse than I was saying before
47:41about the way that religion makes people
47:43first be terribly abject and then
47:46terribly solipsistic and arrogant and
47:49conceited if it were true that all these
47:52things are attributable to an eternal
47:54father who is unknowable except by those
47:56who claim as Dr LX does sources of
47:59information denied to me and many other
48:01people what would it mean at the minimum
48:03it would mean we were living under an
48:05unalterable unchallengeable
48:08dictatorship which might or might not be
48:10benign we have no Assurance it would be
48:11benign in my view benign dictatorships
48:13are the worst but that's another story
48:16it would mean we were subjected to
48:17Everlasting round-the-clock surveillance
48:20waking and sleeping we would never have
48:22a private moment everything we did and
48:24thought would be known and and
48:26supervised and invigilated and neither
48:29rewarded or
48:30punished even big brother in the in 19
48:34George O WS 1984 couldn't be absolutely
48:36sure what all his subjects were thinking
48:40but there was the crime of thought crime
48:43you could be charged with it under the
48:46Divine dispensation no problem you're
48:48convicted of thought crime before you've
48:49even had the thought because everything
48:52is knowable and how would the God who
48:54convicted you know because he'd already
48:56created you full of dirt and sin and
49:00wickedness that's part of the design and
49:03the horror of it the fascistic element
49:06of it is this you're created
49:08sick and then you're ordered to be well
49:11so you're created full of dirty thoughts
49:14and wickedness and wrong Ambitions and
49:16and and and impure and foul nature and
49:19then you're told you better you better
49:21cure yourself pretty fast otherwise I
49:23won't be answerable for the consequences
49:25this is the worst in imaginable kind of
49:29unfreedom and I have to say I distrust
49:31those who wish that it were true in my
49:38opinion the first the original
49:41emancipation the original the first
49:44emancipation that humans must undergo is
49:47the freeing of themselves from this
49:49man-made and man mind forged manacle it
49:54might be asked why don't I want it to be
49:56true why don't I wish it to be true well
49:58I'll I'll tell you
49:59because once you admit that this this
50:03desperate
50:04exists you will find yourself in the
50:06real world in the Here and Now subjected
50:08to the rule of man-made power purely
50:11man-made power ruled by other primates
50:13and other mammals who claim the right to
50:15do anything they want with you because
50:17they have God on their side and because
50:19their rule is divine that's the that's
50:22that this is not a theoretical danger
50:25I'll illustrate it in a different way if
50:26you like on and take up Dr L's point
50:29about the origins of
50:31morality if you think that we wouldn't
50:34know right from wrong we'd have no
50:35concept of good and evil or the right
50:38action or the wrong action or the right
50:40thought or the wrong thought if we
50:42didn't have the permission of a
50:44supernatural Celestial dictator if
50:47that's where our ideas of Good and Evil
50:49come from then let me ask two questions
50:51of you first minut okay I'll I'll I'll
50:55ask the questions and I'll I'll leave it
50:57with the questions and I hope I'll get a
50:59a response later um you must Now ladies
51:02and gentlemen if you believe this you
51:04must tell me of a right action performed
51:08or a right statement moral statement
51:10made by a
51:12Believer such as Dr Lennox that I could
51:15not make myself or couldn't State myself
51:18something that only he could do as a
51:20believer that was right and moral and I
51:22could not do because I'm not a Believer
51:25I've asked this question a lot of places
51:26now to a lot of people including senior
51:29Bishops and archbishops and others I
51:30have not yet had an answer to it and
51:32there must be a good answer if they are
51:35to make the claim that Faith licenses
51:37morality and ethics and then my second
51:39question coroller question much easier
51:42please think of a wicked action done by
51:45someone purely because they are a person
51:48of Faith think of an evil thing said or
51:51an evil thing done that is only done
51:54because the person is is religious
51:55you've already thought of one the
51:58suicide bombing Community is entirely
52:00religious faith-based the genital
52:02mutilation Community is entirely
52:05faith-based you know how it goes um
52:07while these two questions hang in the
52:09air I will bow out let you brood on them
52:12I hope you'll feed some of them back to
52:14me and once again uh my thanks and back
52:16to Dr
52:19[Applause]
52:25l
52:39perfect well now I'll not be able to
52:42deal with all of these but let me do my
52:45uh very best to talk about them uh you
52:48missed completely my point about
52:50Einstein ladies and gentlemen I hope you
52:52noticed I didn't mention anything at all
52:54about Einstein's belief in God because
52:57I'm completely aware of all that
52:59Christopher chinon said the point I made
53:01was that Einstein believed that all
53:05scientists had faith that is in a
53:08completely different thing a faith in
53:10the rational intelligibility of the
53:12universe that was real faith and my
53:15argument had nothing whatsoever to do
53:17with Einstein's belief in God he
53:20mentioned in his initial speech that the
53:24idea of the creator had been completely
53:27refuted by the question you must ask who
53:31created the Creator and you get into an
53:33infinite regress I discussed that with
53:36Richard Dawkins in my debate in Oxford
53:39if you have to ask the question who
53:41created the Creator that means you
53:44believe in a created God and created
53:47gods are are a delusion we've known that
53:49for centuries and we don't need to be
53:51told it if you say who created the
53:54Creator it means also that you cannot
53:57conceive of anything that's
53:59Eternal and I don't know what Mr hitch's
54:02views on the universe are are a mass
54:05energy but the incapacity to believe in
54:07Eternal is essentially the issue my
54:12final point on that would be this I said
54:14to Richard Dawkins I can ask you the
54:17same question because you believe that
54:19the universe created you so I would like
54:22to know who created your creator but he
54:25doesn't seem to an answer to
54:28that now then you referred to the
54:30universe and its expansion and collapse
54:33from the beginning to the end and you
54:36said what's the point of the whole thing
54:38I I would agree with you if I believe
54:41that the Universe was a permanent
54:43phenomenon but one of the things I
54:45understand from the New Testament is
54:48that the Universe never was meant to be
54:51a permanent phenomenon but is a stepping
54:54stage I cannot go into what the Bible
54:58has to say about the notion of new
55:00heavens and a new Earth but I would
55:03simply want to say that this is
55:05something that is very clear in the
55:07Bible itself which claims that the
55:09universe will end up in a massive heat
55:12death this is something not new with
55:15science and the point is that God is
55:18going to have a new
55:20manifestation and that is why his plans
55:22are much bigger than we see within the
55:25confin minds of this present universe
55:30but there was quite a lot of emphasis in
55:32Christopher hitch's talk on
55:35certainty he said those who are say they
55:37are certain are discredited but he was
55:41absolutely certain when we spoke that um
55:45Supernatural is to be ruled out that no
55:49one can know the mind of God how is he
55:51so certain about that if you can't be
55:54certain about anything
55:56ladies and gentlemen I think this is
55:59actually important because I would not
56:02like to give you the impression that my
56:04certainty is the certainty of
56:07arrogance it's rather this that I
56:10believe that behind this universe there
56:12is a God who loves you and me so much
56:15that he's taken the initiative and
56:17revealed himself to us and the key
56:21question that underlines this whole
56:23discussion is this is there such a thing
56:27as Revelation because then it's not a
56:29question of arrogance it's a question
56:33simply of accepting things for which
56:35there is evidence so I would zero in to
56:38the central claim of Christianity which
56:40is this that God became human the word
56:45became flesh and as a scientist I want
56:48to say that my response to that is is
56:52there any evidence for it that Jesus is
56:56who whom he claimed to be he claimed to
56:58be revealing God and if Christopher
57:03Hitchens for example reveal something
57:06about himself to me then it's not
57:09arrogance for me to believe it but I
57:11will never know him unless he's prepared
57:14to do that it's exactly the same with
57:17God unless he reveals himself to me of
57:20course I cannot get to know him but if
57:22he reveals himself then that's a
57:25completely different situation so it's
57:28got to stand or fall on the question as
57:31to whether there is any evidence for
57:35Christ claimed to be God because if he
57:38is God then certainly there are some
57:40things that we can know about God for
57:44the simple reason that he has told them
57:47to us and for me of course the central
57:50evidence is the fact that Jesus
57:54Christ uh literally rose from the dead
57:58on the third day now I'm sad when I hear
58:03uh Christopher hitch's caricature of God
58:06as a Celestial big brother always
58:10watching us trying to spoil our
58:13fun that is an invented God ladies and
58:18gentlemen because the God that I
58:20know is a God that cares for me and has
58:25created the possibility of a real
58:28relationship with me I might as well say
58:31who would want to be married and have a
58:33woman or a man in their home constantly
58:36watching them constantly supervising
58:38them constantly looking out for them
58:40that would be absurd because it's to
58:43take one aspect of watching over and to
58:46distort it into a universalized
58:50explanation ladies and gentlemen aren't
58:52you glad that there are police in this
58:54country watching over you
58:57aren't you glad that there are people
58:59incidentally I think Mr Hitchens and I
59:01are enjoying the fact that you're
59:03watching us tonight and it's not
59:05inhibiting us at all we're enjoying it
59:08there's a watching that's good and
59:10there's a watching that's bad and if you
59:13abolish God's watching I notice that we
59:16ended up in the orwellian situation in
59:19Eastern Europe with big brother
59:21watching what did people think of that
59:23in 1989 they voted very clearly
59:26against that atheist kind of supervision
59:29and it was in fact the Christians that
59:31led the silent revolution in Eastern
59:33Germany that knocked the wall down
59:36there's a false kind of watching and I
59:38agree with Mr Hitchens on it but there's
59:40a true kind of watching because the
59:43relationship with God is not something
59:46that's
59:47forced it's a real relationship of Love
59:50we've been given freedom I heard a real
59:54caricature of the biblical story in
59:57saying that God had created us sick God
1:00:00made a perfect world ladies and
1:00:02gentlemen but he made us in His image
1:00:06with a capacity of real freedom and real
1:00:09choice so that if we say no to God God
1:00:14will honor that choice I wonder what Mr
1:00:17Hitchens would want God to do with
1:00:19people that say no to him he seems to
1:00:21have difficulty with the idea that God
1:00:23will honor the choice of those that say
1:00:26no why is that because God hates them
1:00:29and is some Cosmic Tyrant of course not
1:00:32it's because God actually loves
1:00:37them now these things are sometimes hard
1:00:39to grasp because there are so many
1:00:42distortions of God around in the world
1:00:45and that's why again and again I come
1:00:49back to look at the person of Christ who
1:00:52reveals God to me to look at his love
1:00:56and his friendship and his care and if I
1:00:58ask myself the question would I like to
1:01:01be in the company of that person
1:01:02permanently my answer is a resounding
1:01:05yes I can think of nothing more
1:01:07liberating and nothing more utterly
1:01:10magnificent that expresses the greatness
1:01:13of God now we heard a challenge from Mr
1:01:17Hitchin that he throws out all over the
1:01:20place can we think of a right action
1:01:22that can be made um only by a Christian
1:01:27and not by an atheist it's it's actually
1:01:29a very subtly interesting question to me
1:01:33because there are certain
1:01:34presuppositions behind it that I'd like
1:01:36to briefly deal with in Closing one is
1:01:39this from where I sit ladies and
1:01:41gentlemen whether a person is an atheist
1:01:44or a Christian or anything else they are
1:01:46made in the image of God and therefore
1:01:49they are moral beings therefore they're
1:01:51capable of seeing good and doing good
1:01:54and sometimes my atheist friends could
1:01:56put me to shame so there is that basic
1:02:00moral compass which makes Mr hitch's
1:02:03Question a little bit um beside the
1:02:07point but if I were going to answer his
1:02:10question
1:02:11directly I'm not convinced that William
1:02:15wilburforce would have liberated slavery
1:02:18as he did if his motivation had been
1:02:21atheism because I noticed that
1:02:24wilburforce liberated slaves only to
1:02:27have slavery reintroduced by uh Nazi
1:02:30Germany and communism in the 20th
1:02:33century there is no guarantee ladies and
1:02:35gentlemen that the abolition of God will
1:02:38mean the abolition of the Captivity of
1:02:41man but my final answer to his question
1:02:44is this can I name an a good action that
1:02:48no atheist could do yes I can I can name
1:02:51one that no person of whatever worldview
1:02:55could do and that is to give his life
1:02:58for the sins of the world it is that
1:03:01that characterized Jesus Christ as the
1:03:04one who was God and that is unparalleled
1:03:08in its majesty and in its confirmation
1:03:12that God is truly
1:03:16[Applause]
1:03:24great
1:03:29okay thank
1:03:32you well now I earned my bread all right
1:03:36uh I've received some questions from the
1:03:38audience and put them in order that I I
1:03:40think will be provocative um the
1:03:43questions will be individually addressed
1:03:44to our speakers but I'd be more than
1:03:47happy to have them respond to the
1:03:49answers that the other gives so we'll
1:03:51start with Mr Hitchens one of our guests
1:03:54tonight wants to know if your beef
1:03:57really isn't more with to say the
1:03:59concept of original sin and Universal
1:04:01depravity than it really is with
1:04:03religion in general that you have a very
1:04:05specific view of what religion is and
1:04:07that's what you have a problem
1:04:09with well yes I mean I think all
1:04:12religions are are equally untrue I don't
1:04:15because I don't think there is a
1:04:16supernatural Dimension to be appealed
1:04:20to um or to be used as an explainer of
1:04:25what we don't
1:04:26currently know about our species or
1:04:28about the cosmos you you get along much
1:04:30better if you exclude that assumption
1:04:33and you that means you don't Empower if
1:04:35you can exclude it if you can limit it
1:04:37if you can limit it to a private belief
1:04:39a belief people keep in their homes and
1:04:40so forth which a of course more than
1:04:43entitled to do it means you don't find
1:04:45that you're dealing with a class of
1:04:46witch doctors mullers priests rabbis and
1:04:50others who make a living in politics by
1:04:52saying that they have special rights
1:04:54because they're doing God's will which
1:04:55has been a cursed Humanity throughout
1:04:57its entire existence and currently I
1:04:59think in the form of theocracy and its
1:05:01various bullying threats represents a
1:05:03very direct immediate threat to the
1:05:06survival of our species so yes we'd be
1:05:09better off without
1:05:13it would you like to respond to that
1:05:18John sorry I missed the thing that
1:05:21exactly that I need to respond to okay
1:05:22that's all right um I guess you mean
1:05:26we'd be better off without the doctrine
1:05:28of original sin perhaps no the question
1:05:31John was was um was say obviously that
1:05:34wasn't my main objection my main
1:05:36objection was to religion itself and by
1:05:38the way now you prompt me I meant to say
1:05:41I never said or meant to say that I
1:05:43attacked uh bad behavior that was
1:05:46undertaken or embarked upon in the name
1:05:48of as you put it religion I think you
1:05:50were trying to be generous to me I do
1:05:52insist that this kind of bad behavior is
1:05:54innate in religion is part of religion
1:05:56itself it's not an abuse of it or
1:05:58something undertaken in the name of it's
1:06:00a direct consequence of the willingness
1:06:02to believe in the Supernatural and the
1:06:04willingness to believe in a in a
1:06:05supernatural dictatorship in particular
1:06:11but I think that is the case in some uh
1:06:15situations and it is the case with some
1:06:18people who've named The Name of Christ
1:06:20but what I notice here is this that
1:06:22Christ forbad that kind of behavior
1:06:25savior he told his followers not to take
1:06:29up the sword why because his kingdom was
1:06:32not of this world so people who behave
1:06:36like that in the Name of Christ aren't
1:06:38followers of Christ they're disobeying
1:06:40him and I would want to argue that as we
1:06:43look at his character and his attitude
1:06:46this kind of evil behavior is not
1:06:48endemic to Christianity it's endemic in
1:06:52caricatures and perversions of
1:06:54Christianity
1:06:57okay that's too easy I mean where for
1:06:59example where is it not written that I
1:07:01come not to bring a peace but a sword
1:07:03surely it is um is it not written that
1:07:08those who won't follow me shall be
1:07:09departed must depart and be cast into
1:07:11Everlasting fire not a very gentle or
1:07:14Pacific remark is it not said that if
1:07:17you don't give up your family if you
1:07:18don't give up Thrift if you don't give
1:07:20up everyone who loves you and everything
1:07:22you love to sacrifice yourself for me
1:07:24you're not worthy uh these are strongly
1:07:27uh coercive and implicitly authoritarian
1:07:30or even
1:07:31totalitarian statements and Aus Lewis
1:07:34rightly says it's one of the very rare
1:07:35occasions where I agree with him he said
1:07:37you you may not say that the preachments
1:07:40of Jesus of Nazareth are all right even
1:07:42if you don't accept the religious uh
1:07:44basis of them Lewis quite correctly says
1:07:47if you don't accept that this man was
1:07:48the son of God you'll have to notice
1:07:51that many of his statements and sermons
1:07:53are either Wicked or insane or both
1:07:55it's only on the belief that the world
1:07:57is very soon coming to an end and that
1:08:00he himself has the right to claim a
1:08:02Messianic role in this conclusion that
1:08:05any of it can make any sort of sense at
1:08:07all and everyone here knows at least
1:08:10some of the examples of what would be
1:08:12counted as wicked or insane if the
1:08:14Messianic claims were found to be
1:08:17questionable which they have been okay I
1:08:20would want to question that very
1:08:23seriously because as a said Christ
1:08:26forbad the use of the literal sword so
1:08:28when he said I came not to bring peace
1:08:30in a sword we can see exactly what that
1:08:33means by the fact that he has his
1:08:37message results in a division in society
1:08:40that is I have got to I've got the
1:08:44choice to decide for him or against him
1:08:47and he will honor that choice whichever
1:08:50way it goes the one sword he didn't come
1:08:52to bring was the physical sword because
1:08:54when one of his disciples used it to cut
1:08:57the ear off somebody Christ put the ear
1:08:59back
1:09:00on okay so they
1:09:03say okay well the so they say comment
1:09:06May segue into the next question this
1:09:08one's for Professor Lennox one of our
1:09:10audience members wants to know if you're
1:09:12correct um about there being a deity he
1:09:16wants to know or she wants to know why
1:09:18Jehovah why not Osiris why not Buddha
1:09:23why in the words of one of our guests
1:09:25here why is one myth or folk tale more
1:09:28true than another well first of all I
1:09:30don't think they're all myths I think
1:09:32there are many myths around in the world
1:09:35and certainly the question is an
1:09:38important question because it makes the
1:09:41distinction between the kind of deism or
1:09:43even theism that responds to the design
1:09:46in the universe and so on and says why
1:09:49this one God my answer to that ladies
1:09:52and gentlemen is very simple I have to
1:09:55decide that like I decide everything
1:09:57else on the basis of the evidence and
1:10:02the evidence in the case of the Life
1:10:05Death resurrection of Jesus Christ has
1:10:08convinced me that he is God incarnate so
1:10:13I base my faith on that evidence and of
1:10:17course each one of us must make up our
1:10:19own mind now if we had time I could
1:10:22explain that evidence in detail but the
1:10:26the the point of the question is how can
1:10:28we decide we have to decide on the basis
1:10:30of evidence just as people who uh take
1:10:33the atheist view they think the evidence
1:10:36points that way and mercifully we're
1:10:38still a free enough society that we can
1:10:41make these decisions but we must make
1:10:43them personally okay Christopher would
1:10:46you like to respond to that well you'll
1:10:48have noticed that there are many moments
1:10:50in the New
1:10:52Testament um gospels one of them I'll
1:10:55take for simple uh reason that it's easy
1:10:57to remember that the Messiah will come
1:10:59to Jerusalem riding an ass or a donkey
1:11:03um there are many others including what
1:11:04town he'll be born in and so forth where
1:11:06it says in the text and this was done so
1:11:09that the prophecy should be fulfilled
1:11:11that it should be done because they they
1:11:13knew what the prophecies were a virgin
1:11:16will conceive for example is is another
1:11:19one though the word in Hebrew Alma
1:11:21actually just means marriageable young
1:11:23woman doesn't mean unpenetrated young
1:11:24female at all but it's all reverse
1:11:27engineering it says right there in the
1:11:29text we we're telling you this happened
1:11:31because that would mean that the
1:11:32prophecies had come true so you I think
1:11:34you might suspect a little might you
1:11:37someone who's telling you literally as
1:11:39they're going along why they're telling
1:11:41you this so that the the conditions of
1:11:44Prophecy fulfillment can be met but
1:11:46there's a much Graver problem even than
1:11:49that
1:11:50naivity um which is that these these
1:11:53prophecies are of a Jewish Messiah
1:11:55to
1:11:56come and the Jewish religious
1:11:59authorities of the time considered and
1:12:02who were the the nearest much closer to
1:12:04being eyewitnesses if the story is true
1:12:05at all much closer than the authors of
1:12:07any of the gospels they were the people
1:12:10who were the religious Authority in the
1:12:12area uh he was a member if he existed of
1:12:15their congregation they thought he was
1:12:17the sorcerer and a
1:12:19fraud and an
1:12:22impostor and convicted him of blasphemy
1:12:25because though he in fact never said
1:12:27that he was God I don't think I mean
1:12:29there are some Christians I know who do
1:12:31say that Jesus is God there are some who
1:12:32say he only claimed to be the son of the
1:12:35critical question is he's asked Art Thou
1:12:36the Christ are you the Messiah and he
1:12:39gives a slightly evasive answer at this
1:12:41point but it's enough to make the
1:12:42Sanhedrin Rend its garments so all
1:12:45you're seeing in this tale if it be true
1:12:48at all if it have any truth to it is the
1:12:50origin of Jewish Christian
1:12:52fratricide of the of the the the Jews
1:12:55who have nurtured the idea of Prophecy
1:12:57and the Messiah through their prophets
1:12:59for Generations who believe the Messiah
1:13:01has not yet even considered daning
1:13:04showing up and those who tell the Jews
1:13:06why are you wasting your time the good
1:13:08news has already happened why didn't you
1:13:10just get with the program I submit that
1:13:12neither of these propositions is worthy
1:13:15of the consideration of an intelligent
1:13:16or educated human being it's it's Bronze
1:13:19Age peasant Palestinian Superstition and
1:13:23and and the the competition over it and
1:13:26interpretations over it have made
1:13:28Humanity's life even more miserable than
1:13:30it was going to be
1:13:32otherwi well I I know that Dr Lennox has
1:13:36a response the third and in the third
1:13:38form of plagiarism that it takes which
1:13:40is the the plagiarism of Islam from both
1:13:42Judaism and Christianity the competition
1:13:44between monotheism has become really
1:13:45outright menacing and the real
1:13:48responsibility of citizens is to is to
1:13:50hold it down is to resist Theocratic
1:13:52bullying and the superstitions that
1:13:54underly it okay let's um I want to move
1:13:56on to another question but I I'll just
1:13:58give you just a few seconds to respond
1:14:00very briefly to that well if you're
1:14:02going to call it Bronze Age Superstition
1:14:04you'd be better to get it right
1:14:07because one of your statements there is
1:14:10just
1:14:12false Jesus claimed to be
1:14:15God and they stoned him why did they
1:14:19Stone him because you being a man make
1:14:23yourself God the notion that he never
1:14:26claimed to be God is simply false and
1:14:29you say prophecy is irrelevant and
1:14:33Superstition and all of that one of the
1:14:35things that I find very interesting
1:14:38about the Christian faith is it's not a
1:14:40mere philosophy it's geared into
1:14:43history and when Jesus came there were
1:14:46various things that were predicted he
1:14:48fulfilled them but the biggest of all
1:14:51was the fact that he fulfilled ideas
1:14:54that have been current in Israel for
1:14:56centuries that someday there would
1:14:59become a person who would die for his
1:15:02people's sins now that is a huge thing
1:15:05of course and it seems to me that those
1:15:08prophecies when they are
1:15:10fulfilled provide part of the evidence
1:15:14that this thing is much bigger than some
1:15:16little local thing happening in
1:15:17Palestine although it happened there but
1:15:20is geared into a whole Revelation
1:15:23through history itself so I don't find
1:15:25it a product of bronze Edge Superstition
1:15:28they were not
1:15:30superstitious in any more sense for
1:15:34example when uh he mentioned the
1:15:38virginal conception of Christ of I may
1:15:40just say a word about that that when
1:15:43Joseph discovered that Mary was pregnant
1:15:47he didn't suddenly believe in a miracle
1:15:49he wanted to divorce her why because he
1:15:51knew exactly as we do where babies come
1:15:53from he wasn't stupid nor was he
1:15:55pre-scientific and it took a lot of
1:15:58convincing for him to accept what I
1:16:00believe to be the true solution that
1:16:02this was a unique miracle of God
1:16:04encoding himself into Humanity okay
1:16:09so will you will you promise to do it
1:16:11quickly so if your wife is pregnant and
1:16:13you know it's not you the only
1:16:14alternative is that it's the Holy
1:16:17Spirit that's a false David David Hume
1:16:19deals David Hume deals with this quite
1:16:21well he says in the case of the laws of
1:16:23nature being suspended you have to ask
1:16:25yourself have they been suspended in my
1:16:27favor or um am I possibly under a
1:16:30misapprehension I think it's Thomas
1:16:32Payne who asks um which is more likely
1:16:35that the laws of nature are suspended or
1:16:37that a Jewish girl should tell a
1:16:39fib we have to grow up out of this stuff
1:16:42you know now your problem uh Dr lennis
1:16:45John if I may say so not with me your
1:16:49problem is with monino Ronald Knox one
1:16:51of the greatest Christian apologists
1:16:53first an Anglican then an Anglo Catholic
1:16:54then finally a Roman Catholic who in his
1:16:57book of apologetics very directly says
1:16:59Jesus of Nazareth never claimed to be
1:17:02God it's not my problem he claimed
1:17:04sometimes to be the son or let people
1:17:06run away with that idea and to Jews he
1:17:08was asked when he was asked the direct
1:17:10question are you the the expected one
1:17:12the awaited one the one we want the
1:17:14Messiah he gave a slightly evasive but
1:17:16they thought profane
1:17:18answer now this this is my my account of
1:17:21this is correct I'm sorry to say okay
1:17:25well I think I regret to I just hate to
1:17:28cut off a good conversation but I'll
1:17:29give you one last
1:17:32well I'm fascinated that he quotes David
1:17:34Hume and talking about the suspension of
1:17:37nature David Hume has got about the
1:17:39worst analysis of Miracles I've ever
1:17:41read in my life first of all he didn't
1:17:45really believe in the law of cause and
1:17:47effect on which you base laws of nature
1:17:50secondly the laws of nature are not
1:17:52suspended in a miracle it's God feeds a
1:17:56new event in if I put1 pound plus1 pound
1:18:01or $100 in my drawer
1:18:03tonight 100 + 100 is 200 if I find $50
1:18:07in the drawer tomorrow I don't say the
1:18:10laws of arithmetic have been broken I
1:18:12say the laws of Alabama have been broken
1:18:15okay okay but let me make the point from
1:18:18this well then wait a minute I'm not
1:18:20well then well then you well then you
1:18:21admit there's no conundrum there no
1:18:23there's no problem to be solved in that
1:18:25yes my knowledge there's nothing to be
1:18:27explained there is the knowledge not if
1:18:30it's covered by the laws of Alabama it
1:18:33isn't but just a second my knowledge
1:18:36that 1 + 1 equals 2 I know that law so
1:18:39to speak tells me that another event has
1:18:43been fed into the
1:18:45system and that's exactly what happens
1:18:49my knowledge that dead men don't
1:18:51normally Rise by observation means that
1:18:55if one does rise not the laws of nature
1:18:58have been suspended or broken but God
1:19:00who created the universe and built into
1:19:03it those laws which are not causes but
1:19:05our descriptions of regularities he's
1:19:08perfectly free of course as the Creator
1:19:11to feed a new event in and then the laws
1:19:13of nature take over and a baby is born
1:19:15nine months later I think hum is
1:19:17completely wrong about this of course
1:19:21he's I will I will let then on that on
1:19:24that assumption
1:19:25on that assumption then there's there's
1:19:26nothing there's nothing exceptional in
1:19:29do you believe that the sun Stood Still
1:19:31at midday so Joshua could complete his
1:19:32battle plan but I've just said do you in
1:19:35fact believe that I mean yes that is how
1:19:37it was perceived but let me go back to
1:19:39what you've just said you've just said
1:19:41Christopher you've
1:19:43just you have just said that there's
1:19:47nothing exceptional in it there is
1:19:49something exceptional in it but the
1:19:52claim that the laws of nature are susp
1:19:54Ended as if they caused things is not
1:19:56true it's that God has done something
1:19:59very exceptional he has fed an event in
1:20:02and the way we recognize that is because
1:20:05we already know the regularities if you
1:20:08didn't know the laws of nature you could
1:20:09believe that everything was a miracle
1:20:12okay do you want me to do one more or
1:20:13not um an out of an out an out of
1:20:17wedlock baby isn't something that
1:20:19requires a natural Supernatural
1:20:20explanation it's its own explanation the
1:20:22sun standing still at midday or or the
1:20:25daughter of gyus being raised from the
1:20:27grave or Lazarus being raised from the
1:20:28grave neither of them with anything you
1:20:29notice to say for themselves about this
1:20:32event um the uh the account in the
1:20:35gospel of at the time of the crucifixion
1:20:37all the graves of Jerusalem opening and
1:20:40all that the tenants of all the graves
1:20:42coming out and walking around the city
1:20:44and greeting people
1:20:46informally rather suggesting that
1:20:48Resurrection in the greater Jerusalem
1:20:49area wasn't that big a deal um if you're
1:20:52willing to believe any of this that's
1:20:54the sort of thing you're willing to
1:20:55believe okay well let's thank you very
1:20:57much we'll move on to our next question
1:20:59uh that was too good in exchange to
1:21:00interrupt so um this is for uh Mr
1:21:03Hitchens and again we'll do a little bit
1:21:04of free play on this I bet we will yes
1:21:06we
1:21:07will I imagine that's what most folks
1:21:09came to see Hazard that we will so now
1:21:13are you willing to accept the view of
1:21:14Peter Singer that man has no ultimate
1:21:17dignity meaning hope or value if not why
1:21:21not uh no um then the why not is problem
1:21:24atic of course because um the there is
1:21:28whether you are a materialist or
1:21:30supernaturalist no particular reason to
1:21:33say that human life has any enormous uh
1:21:36innate
1:21:38value um after all religion disposes of
1:21:41people in heaps and mounds and says go
1:21:44out we depart into Eternal fire your
1:21:47your dust you're nothing if you don't
1:21:49have our faith you're nothing less than
1:21:51nothing you're worse you're evil Wicked
1:21:53so forth so these are it's not as if by
1:21:55assuming a god you suddenly find that
1:21:58life is all worthwhile after all it's if
1:22:00it was that simple we wouldn't have to
1:22:02be having this discussion I think this
1:22:05essentially I ask myself why do I
1:22:08care um why do I care not just about
1:22:10myself and my children why do I think I
1:22:12often care in general well if I didn't I
1:22:15wouldn't belong to a species that would
1:22:17have got this far may sound a
1:22:19platitudinous answer but I think there's
1:22:21some Force to it if we didn't have human
1:22:24solidarity if we didn't realize that we
1:22:26are brothers and sisters one with
1:22:28another that we have responsibilities
1:22:30duties to one another that these are not
1:22:32merely uh reciprocal in evolutionary
1:22:35terms in other words you be nice to me
1:22:37I'll look out for you but they can
1:22:39involve real ties real bonds of
1:22:41affection friendship even love if we
1:22:44didn't know that we were um able to
1:22:47think like that we we exempt quite large
1:22:50minority of humans were born without
1:22:52this the sociopaths and Psychopaths who
1:22:55I suppose we have to concede are also
1:22:56made in God's image if you accept that
1:22:59tautology um we it's it it leaves
1:23:02nothing really unexplained that that
1:23:04would that would tell us why we had warm
1:23:07feelings for one another and also
1:23:08explain why we were here instead of
1:23:11having joined the species that went all
1:23:13the other ones that went out of business
1:23:16under the same Divine supervision I
1:23:18might add including humanoid species
1:23:20like the chromagnon and the Neanderthals
1:23:23who it's quite clear bu each other with
1:23:25care and with love looked out for one
1:23:27another and so forth and so on but
1:23:29somehow didn't make some Divine grade do
1:23:32you see where I'm going with this I do
1:23:34hope
1:23:36so okay
1:23:38John well Peter
1:23:40Singer what he thinks is extremely
1:23:44disturbing I agree actually very much
1:23:46with Christopher that we find ourselves
1:23:49with these feelings and morality within
1:23:52us I don't think that's the issue
1:23:54because my Christian faith guarantees
1:23:56those uh to Christopher Hitchens as it
1:23:59does to me the problem is the rational
1:24:03justification of this against the view
1:24:07of someone like singer who is taking his
1:24:11extrapolations From Evolution to a
1:24:14logical conclusion and ending up with
1:24:16views that a newborn baby is of no more
1:24:19value than a dog a chimp or h a pig and
1:24:24other words devaluing human beings and
1:24:28that seems to me to be a very serious
1:24:30direction in which society is going if
1:24:34you teach people that they're no
1:24:36different from animals it may just be
1:24:39they'll start to behave like animals so
1:24:42what prevents me from going down that
1:24:44line is that I deny completely his
1:24:47premise and his premise is there's
1:24:50nothing unique about human beings I want
1:24:52to say there's something absolutely
1:24:54abolutely unique about them they are of
1:24:56course animals but they're more than
1:24:59that they're created in the image of God
1:25:01and that gives them infinite value and
1:25:04dignity and we will jettison that at our
1:25:07Peril and I think it's being jettisoned
1:25:10in the name of a very seriously flawed
1:25:16philosophy which is as nature predicted
1:25:19exactly what will happen if you attempt
1:25:22to live out atheism to its consequen
1:25:24it'll end up in Madness I think actually
1:25:27Chesterton says somewhere that where
1:25:29where animals are worshiped humans tend
1:25:31to be sacrificed if you look at ancient
1:25:34cultures and some not so ancient that
1:25:37would tend to be true I remember when if
1:25:39it wasn't singer it was one of his
1:25:41disciples said that he his own baby
1:25:43daughter was no more to him than would
1:25:45be say a rat or a flea or um well let's
1:25:48leave it at that I remember thinking my
1:25:50first thought was I'm glad I'm not his
1:25:52daughter but my
1:25:54but my second thought is I'm glad I'm
1:25:56not his pet rat either yeah exactly
1:25:58because it seems he doesn't have a great
1:26:00deal of sort of love to spare for anyone
1:26:02or or anything look animal rights can be
1:26:06overdone and and certainly have been by
1:26:08especially people who object to Medical
1:26:10experiments in a hysterical manner but
1:26:12we have learned a great deal in the
1:26:14recent past about our kinship with and
1:26:17commonalities with other creatures and
1:26:19we've discovered amazing things about
1:26:21the capacity including the capacity for
1:26:23family life
1:26:24uh solidarity um Society building and so
1:26:27on among pigs monkeys uh dolphins and
1:26:32others and we know because of the genome
1:26:35program of our kinship with other much
1:26:37less Advanced creatures um and that we
1:26:40are only ourselves half a chromosome
1:26:42away from being chimpanzees the one
1:26:45thing this is impossible to square with
1:26:47is the idea of us being made in the
1:26:49image of God that that's that's clearly
1:26:52over it clearly isn't
1:26:55anthropomorphically animalistically
1:26:57whichever way you slice it we are we we
1:26:59are we are primates so in what okay in
1:27:03that case in the image of what God are
1:27:05the others made it gets you nowhere it's
1:27:08a strictly meaningless
1:27:10statement it's interesting christop Val
1:27:13my geneticist friends in Oxford when the
1:27:17similarity between the chromosomes and
1:27:19so on the DNA of animals with humans uh
1:27:23was disc they said well we always told
1:27:25you so it shows that it doesn't lie in
1:27:27the chromosomes there's a lot bigger
1:27:30story to be told I think and it would be
1:27:32very premature to close the discussion
1:27:34on that basis Steph J gold was it he who
1:27:38said that we're not 9 be 8% chimpanzee
1:27:42we're 100%
1:27:44human Okay compatible
1:27:47statement um I'll ask another question
1:27:50in a moment that's connected to this
1:27:51just a word on the format because we did
1:27:52get started a little bit late I do want
1:27:54to still keep some uh the 35 minutes we
1:27:56set aside for this kind of give and take
1:27:58this is a very important moment in the
1:27:59evening so I don't want to sell that
1:28:01short AB so we may go a little bit past
1:28:038:00 uh um to make sure that we have
1:28:05this full exchange this next question
1:28:07does address some of the issues brought
1:28:09up in the in the last exchange 63% of
1:28:12Americans do not accept evolution and uh
1:28:16that percentage may even been higher in
1:28:18the audience for this evening uh the
1:28:20question for you John would be what are
1:28:22the
1:28:22long-term consequence quences of this
1:28:24kind of mistrust of
1:28:27science well I think first of all this
1:28:31could be a discussion for an entire
1:28:33debate actually how about six minutes I
1:28:36would I would want to know first of all
1:28:39what you mean by Evolution if you mean
1:28:42simply what Darwin
1:28:44observed that is the uh fact that
1:28:47natural selection produces variation and
1:28:50so on then that's not a particularly
1:28:52controversial thing we can observe
1:28:54if you mean by
1:28:56Evolution uh the notion that by unguided
1:29:00Mindless processes life originally arose
1:29:03and comes to be what it is I myself as a
1:29:08scientist find that unconvincing and I
1:29:11find it unconvincing as a mathematician
1:29:14particularly because at the heart of
1:29:16Life there is the datab base of DNA and
1:29:20when we notice anything with a semiotic
1:29:23nature language that is language like
1:29:263.5 billion letters in exactly the right
1:29:28order we immediately make an inference
1:29:31upwards not downwards to say that by
1:29:34whatever the mechanisms involved of
1:29:37getting this it Bears The Telltale Mark
1:29:41of an intelligent standing beside it so
1:29:44it seems to me that there's a very
1:29:46healthy scientific debate to be had
1:29:49about the reach of evolution and so we
1:29:52need to uh Define Define our terms very
1:29:55carefully but not being an American I
1:29:57can't really predict what's going on in
1:29:59here the fact that people are suspicious
1:30:02seems to me to show that there's a real
1:30:05debate to be had and all the evidence is
1:30:09certainly not in my opinion on one on
1:30:11one
1:30:12side the the um the figures
1:30:15on American belief in things like virgin
1:30:19birth and the devil uh and their doubt
1:30:22of things like in my opinion wildly
1:30:24exaggerated and padded and produced by
1:30:28Leading questions asked of the sort of
1:30:30people who happen to be in their
1:30:31kitchens all day and have nothing else
1:30:34to do and what they tend to show mainly
1:30:37when you interrogate them is they don't
1:30:39even know what it is they don't believe
1:30:40in I would instance Governor Michael
1:30:41hakabe for example who says of course he
1:30:44doesn't believe that he's descended from
1:30:45apes well theory of evolution is not
1:30:48that Governor hakabe is descended from
1:30:49apes he may know something about his
1:30:51family tree that I've also suspected in
1:30:53my
1:30:54time but it wouldn't invalidate the
1:30:56general proposition uh so very you
1:30:59usually the people who don't know about
1:31:01Darwinism are the ones who say they
1:31:02don't believe in it which isn't a fair
1:31:04test of anything I'll just add on this
1:31:07point of not being descended from but
1:31:09having things in common with our primate
1:31:12cousins um we do as Darwin says bear the
1:31:16unmistakable stamp of our lowly origin
1:31:18we do grow a coat of hair when we're in
1:31:20the womb and then shed it in the womb at
1:31:22about 3 and a half months we we do have
1:31:24vestigial Tails we do have um appendices
1:31:29that are for the breaking down of stuff
1:31:32on the Savannah that we no longer need
1:31:34to eat and we do have wisdom teeth and
1:31:36other dentition that uh we don't any
1:31:39longer require because we we were we
1:31:41were adapted to an environment that we a
1:31:43Savanah environment that we've long ago
1:31:45abandoned so saying that you're 100%
1:31:48human is only another way of saying that
1:31:51you're very much 98% primate
1:31:54voila it's otherwise it's a distinction
1:31:56without a
1:32:00difference um I'll ask this question
1:32:02this is addressed to to Christopher but
1:32:05again for for both of you to address um
1:32:08and I believe one of your early books
1:32:09letters to a young contrarian so this
1:32:12may be a an interesting answer for you
1:32:14to give what advice do you have for
1:32:17someone who has left
1:32:20theism but were but was raised in an
1:32:23institution
1:32:24like sford or in a church and is still
1:32:27in that institution what advice would
1:32:29you give that
1:32:31person you'll feel so much better if you
1:32:34uh leave it behind you and go and study
1:32:37literature
1:32:39instead and the constellations of
1:32:42philosophy and the beauties of science I
1:32:43think the real these are things
1:32:45infinitely more a inspiring and
1:32:47wonderful and Majestic than than any
1:32:49invocations of the burning bush or like
1:32:53or the immoral doctrine of vicarious
1:32:55Redemption whereby a single human is
1:32:56made the scapegoat for all sins and we
1:32:59we absolve ourselves not just of sin but
1:33:01of our responsibility by throwing our
1:33:03sins on him the disgusting idea
1:33:06fortunately um never happened the the
1:33:09question that the cultural question that
1:33:11remains I think is this how are people
1:33:13going to live when they've given up the
1:33:16Supernatural and the superstitious aren
1:33:18we still going to need I would say we
1:33:20are still going to need the numinous and
1:33:23the transcendent
1:33:24that's that's innate in us too as is
1:33:26reason as is morality and so the great
1:33:30struggle is going to be how how we find
1:33:33consolation and and beauty and
1:33:35reflection in when we have come to terms
1:33:38with the fact that we don't have a
1:33:40Divine dictator to solve our problems
1:33:42for us and that the heavens are empty
1:33:44and that our prayers are not answered
1:33:45and that we're alone with one another
1:33:47and have to make the best of it I I
1:33:49submit that that's that's going to be
1:33:51the great problem for civilization from
1:33:53now on and a lot of a lot of energy
1:33:56moral as well as aesthetic is going to
1:33:59have to be put into solving it but the
1:34:02beginning of wisdom is to realize you
1:34:04must emancipate yourself from the idea
1:34:07that you that you are the play thing of
1:34:10a a supernatural boss fortunately that's
1:34:13not
1:34:15true John well I don't live in America
1:34:20but I would be very sad to think that in
1:34:23any University a person that changed
1:34:27their world view in either direction
1:34:30would no longer feel comfortable because
1:34:33I work at a university where there are
1:34:36all kinds of worldviews and that to my
1:34:38mind is the wonderful thing about being
1:34:40there so I would very much hope a person
1:34:44could still find a lot of room and space
1:34:49that's why universities are so important
1:34:52that people are free to make these
1:34:54decisions and discuss them
1:34:58so as to you would agree with that
1:35:01Christ very much so yes yes exactly I'm
1:35:04delighted by the way that uh Christopher
1:35:08admitted that in that answer that he
1:35:10believes in the
1:35:11Transcendent that might lead me to ask
1:35:13the question where it comes from but
1:35:15perhaps for another
1:35:18time no it comes it's a perfectly good
1:35:21question it comes from it's a fusion I
1:35:23think
1:35:24I can only speak for my myself because I
1:35:26think as James says in the varieties of
1:35:28religious experience you may not doubt
1:35:30that people have them or you shouldn't
1:35:32at any rate you should grant that they
1:35:34do you can't make them applicable
1:35:36objectively they're they're subjective
1:35:37to the person concerned but I would say
1:35:40it's roughly where the
1:35:42erotic meets love meets landscape meets
1:35:47music and poetry um and it's a a
1:35:52junction of a lot of people I hope
1:35:54will be familiar with um if not I
1:35:57recommend that you try it um and then
1:35:59try it again even more intensely uh for
1:36:02example I I wrote a book once about a
1:36:04famous building called the pathon which
1:36:06without which I could not be without
1:36:08which our civilization couldn't be um
1:36:11pre-christian by the way as as is a huge
1:36:14amount of the civilization that habas
1:36:17claims to be inspired by it um that to
1:36:19one
1:36:20side the Symmetry and the beauty and the
1:36:23Frozen music and poetry of the pathon
1:36:26and of the Greek style is an
1:36:27indispensable thing if it were to be
1:36:29destroyed I would feel sort of orphaned
1:36:32but I have no interest in the religion
1:36:34that used to animate it the cult of
1:36:35Palace Athena is dead and void to me so
1:36:39is the a of Athenian imperialism so the
1:36:42so-called mysteries of elus and the rest
1:36:45of it all that's left from me are the
1:36:46schools of philosophy that are worth
1:36:48studying so again it's going to be a
1:36:50question how do we how do we assimilate
1:36:53what was to previous generations and
1:36:55previous religions and extinct faiths uh
1:36:58something so important how do we how do
1:37:00we keep the value that is innate in that
1:37:03without surrendering to the Cults um and
1:37:06illusions that so much animated it these
1:37:09are these are very important cultural
1:37:11issues okay and I submit that we can do
1:37:13it okay John I'll give you the last
1:37:15response on this and then we'll move to
1:37:16our closing remarks just briefly I just
1:37:18find it a bit difficult to see how a
1:37:20Mindless unguided process produces
1:37:22Aesthetics and and all these
1:37:23Transcendent
1:37:25experiences okay well that may then
1:37:27segue into the closing remarks actually
1:37:29we'll reverse the order of the opening
1:37:31remarks and Professor Lennox will go
1:37:33first and have five minutes and then
1:37:36after that uh Mr Hitchens will'll wrap
1:37:37up the
1:37:39evening
1:37:52okay
1:38:02well ladies and gentlemen I've very much
1:38:05enjoyed this spirited debate and
1:38:08Christopher Hitchens is certainly a very
1:38:11worthy
1:38:13opponent in my closing remarks I just
1:38:17want to address very briefly a point
1:38:19that has not been
1:38:21addressed he said in his opening remarks
1:38:25just in
1:38:26passing about
1:38:28manmade gods that is gods are the
1:38:32figment of our
1:38:34imagination well I would agree that if
1:38:37God does not exist then Freud can show
1:38:40us clearly how Christianity is an opiate
1:38:43a comfort blanket a flight from reality
1:38:46into an imaginary fantasy Heaven of wish
1:38:50fulfillment but if God does exist then
1:38:53Freud will equally convincingly show us
1:38:55how atheism is a comfort blanket a
1:38:58flight from the reality of coming face
1:39:00to face with our
1:39:02creator the Polish Nobel Prize winner
1:39:04for literature chesf miash wrote a true
1:39:08opium of the people is a belief in
1:39:11nothingness after death the huge Solace
1:39:14of thinking that our betrayals are greed
1:39:17our cowardice our murders are not going
1:39:20to be judged ladies and gentlemen Freud
1:39:23could give you an explanation in both
1:39:25directions but what Freud cannot do as
1:39:28Manfred loots the brilliant German
1:39:30psychiatrist is pointed out Freud cannot
1:39:33help you at all on the question of
1:39:36whether God exists or not and that
1:39:40really is the basic question behind our
1:39:43consideration
1:39:44tonight is God great of course presumes
1:39:49that there is a God to be great and I
1:39:52have argued to tonight that there is
1:39:55evidence in the universe of the
1:39:58existence of God but in particular that
1:40:01God has revealed himself to us not only
1:40:05in creation but also in that inbuilt
1:40:09moral sense that we all
1:40:12share and it seems to be to be
1:40:14enormously important that we see that
1:40:18there's real evidence that points
1:40:20upwards and doesn't point Point
1:40:25downwards
1:40:27but I want to
1:40:29conclude by reading to you a Times
1:40:34columnist article written by an atheist
1:40:38Matthew
1:40:40Paris he says this as an atheist I truly
1:40:45believe that Africa needs God
1:40:49missionaries not Aid money are the
1:40:52solution to Africa biggest problem the
1:40:54crushing passivity of the people's
1:40:58mindset now a confirmed atheist I've
1:41:01become convinced of the enormous
1:41:04contribution that Christian evangelism
1:41:06makes in Africa sharply distinct from
1:41:09the work of secular NOS government
1:41:12projects and international Aid efforts
1:41:15these alone will not do Education and
1:41:18Training alone will not do in Africa
1:41:21Christianity changed es people's hearts
1:41:25it brings a spiritual transformation The
1:41:27Rebirth is real the change is good those
1:41:30who want Africa to Walk Tall amid 21st
1:41:33century Global competition must not kid
1:41:36themselves that providing the material
1:41:39means or even the knowhow that
1:41:41accompanies what we call development
1:41:43will make the change a whole belief
1:41:45system must first be supplanted and I'm
1:41:48afraid it has to be supplanted by
1:41:50another removing Christian evangelism
1:41:53from the African equation says an
1:41:55atheist may leave the continent at the
1:41:58mercy of a malign Fusion of Nike the
1:42:01wish Witch Doctor the mobile phone and
1:42:05the
1:42:06machete at the heart of the Christian
1:42:09message is something so utterly great
1:42:12and good that no mere human could do it
1:42:15and that is the fact that Christ died
1:42:17for the sins of the world Christopher
1:42:20Hitchens finds it repellent as he says
1:42:22in book the idea of one man dying for
1:42:26another as one man cannot take another
1:42:29man's sins he is absolutely right ladies
1:42:32and gentlemen when Jesus told a man that
1:42:35his sins were forgiven the people around
1:42:38at the time were as outraged as
1:42:39Christopher hittin who can forgive sins
1:42:42they said but God alone but that is
1:42:45exactly the issue if Jesus is merely a
1:42:48man like all others then of course it's
1:42:50outrageous but he isn't he is man but he
1:42:54never was merely man and that's why his
1:42:57death is utterly unique and why Millions
1:43:00throughout history and in our world
1:43:02today find peace and forgiveness in his
1:43:06name at
1:43:08lunchtime Mr Hitchin told us he didn't
1:43:10like the imagery of the shepherd and the
1:43:14sheep that occurs in the New Testament
1:43:17because shepherds are usually out to
1:43:19fleece their sheep and eat
1:43:21them but but he missed the point ladies
1:43:24and
1:43:25gentlemen because when Jesus Christ said
1:43:27he was the Good Shepherd he was making a
1:43:31contrast between himself and Earthly
1:43:33Shepherds he said he was there to
1:43:36protect them when the wolves come that
1:43:39he was there not to kill the Sheep but
1:43:42to be a most unusual Shepherd that he
1:43:44would give his life for the
1:43:47sheep and as for fleecing them and
1:43:50eventually destroying them what did he
1:43:54say he said this I shall lose not one of
1:44:00them I think this is one of the most
1:44:03magnificent images because it says the
1:44:06exact opposite of what mitcher Hitchens
1:44:09wants it to say ladies and gentlemen God
1:44:13is Not only great Christ has shown us
1:44:17that he is immeasurably
1:44:22great
1:44:38I I'm unable I can't I can't afford
1:44:41myself um I find I haven't it in me to
1:44:46make us an assumption what I need to
1:44:48prove and I can't get I can't get
1:44:50Comfort this way you'll have to bear
1:44:51with me l ladies and gentlemen I can't I
1:44:54can't applaud uh as easily as you do uh
1:44:58consolation offered in that form I still
1:45:00have unanswered questions challenges to
1:45:02myself that I feel I must deal with to
1:45:05my
1:45:07question uh can of could have a moral
1:45:09action be performed by a Believer and
1:45:11not performed by me Dr LX you will have
1:45:14noticed uh said
1:45:18um there's a moral action that a
1:45:20Believer could perform that I couldn't
1:45:22and that was to offer myself as a
1:45:24sacrifice for the Redemption of humanity
1:45:26I think you will see that there's a
1:45:28catch in that answer in that um the
1:45:32average person uh unbeliever can't
1:45:35simultaneously be claiming to be the son
1:45:37of or perhaps you'd rather say God
1:45:40himself that's before you have to decide
1:45:42whether vicarious Redemption
1:45:44scapegoating is a moral action in the
1:45:47first instance so if I may say so
1:45:50modestly I think that my question still
1:45:52sounds and that anyone who heard it
1:45:54would have to say it hadn't yet been
1:45:56answered and that's by a great
1:45:58Theologian at that um I'm a Navy brat
1:46:01myself I'm from Portsmouth and there's a
1:46:03famous story about a a young officer
1:46:05undergoing a a rigorous Examination for
1:46:08the to pass for captain and he's told to
1:46:10picture himself on a lewood Shore with a
1:46:13a very strong wind driving him towards
1:46:15the Rocks he's asked what are you going
1:46:17to do he says well crown on all all sail
1:46:19and steer to starboard hard down on the
1:46:22tiller and on the wheel said but the
1:46:24wind keeps coming it's you're still
1:46:25being driven on what are you going to do
1:46:27now he said cram on more sail and keep
1:46:29the wheel very hard down away from the
1:46:31lewood side and but but you're still
1:46:33being driven onto those rocks young man
1:46:35what are you going to do now just cram
1:46:36on more sale and keep the keep the
1:46:39rudder and the tiller hard down on the
1:46:41on the starboard side and that he's
1:46:43interrupted said where are you getting
1:46:44um where are you getting all this extra
1:46:45saale from and he says the same place
1:46:48you're getting all your extra wind
1:46:51from I I want to warn you as I close
1:46:54ladies and gentlemen against the dangers
1:46:55of torgy if everything that cannot be
1:46:58explained everything that is mysterious
1:47:00to us numinous say or Transcendent must
1:47:03therefore be laid to the charge or the
1:47:05credit of a supernatural being then
1:47:08nothing remains to be explained
1:47:10everything is imp potential explicable
1:47:13there isn't there's no problem to begin
1:47:15with there's no point in this argument
1:47:17of course there's no mystery there's no
1:47:18need for for citation there's no need
1:47:20for reflection it must be part of a
1:47:23divine plan I hope you can see uh the
1:47:25fallacy that protrudes from that
1:47:28conclusion too where does the
1:47:30Transcendent come from I'm happy to say
1:47:32I don't really know what the Wellsprings
1:47:34of the Transcendent are in me or are in
1:47:36us but it does no good to say oh don't
1:47:39you know they come to you by Divine
1:47:41permission nothing is added nothing is
1:47:44added by that explanation or that uh
1:47:47that
1:47:48assumption I didn't rise to the
1:47:50challenge about atheist regimes in the
1:47:5220th century and I really should take a
1:47:54minute I hope I've got a minute for this
1:47:57um I'll be very brief um if you take out
1:48:00the word fascism from any history of the
1:48:041920s and 30s any decent history and
1:48:06replace it with the words the Catholic
1:48:09rightwing you don't need to change
1:48:11anything fascism is just another name
1:48:14for the extreme rightwing forces of the
1:48:15Roman Catholic Church that's true
1:48:17whether it's Portugal Croatia Poland
1:48:21Hungary Italy and all of these regimes
1:48:23and movements had a a specific concordat
1:48:26with the Vatican you may not say that
1:48:27fascism is a secular or atheist movement
1:48:29not if you don't want to do great
1:48:30violence to history uh the churches of
1:48:33Germany celebrated the birthday of Adolf
1:48:36Hitler every year till 1945 by
1:48:39order uh and his first first significant
1:48:42Treaty of the Nazi regime was with the
1:48:45Vatican a concordat that gave the church
1:48:46a monopoly over the education of German
1:48:49children in in response for a PCT
1:48:53that abolished Catholic parties that
1:48:55might challenge the rule of Hitler
1:48:57that's not secularism excuse me it's not
1:48:59atheism either quite wrong to say that
1:49:01it is it's a form of paganism as a
1:49:04matter of fact but would have involved
1:49:06as well as a compromise with
1:49:07Christianity the Revival of some Nordic
1:49:10myths but those weren't secular or
1:49:11atheistic either the cult of votan and
1:49:14Odin is not atheism um in the case of
1:49:17the Soviet Union where uh the the
1:49:21population had been told for centuries
1:49:23that the Zar was like the pope uh
1:49:27divinely inspired and divinely empowered
1:49:29and where serom was justified by the
1:49:31Russian Orthodox Church which was a
1:49:33state church if you're Joseph Stalin
1:49:35seminarian graduate seizing power if you
1:49:38don't know how to exploit a reservoir of
1:49:39credulity and stupidity and passivity
1:49:43and cility like that you shouldn't be in
1:49:45business and what did he do he
1:49:47replicated the same thing there was an
1:49:49inquisition a heresy hunt a PR of
1:49:53himself as the as the Divine one from
1:49:55whom all blessings flowed uh and all the
1:49:58rest of it and to this day the Russian
1:50:00Orthodox Church which never ceased to
1:50:01support Stalin um has under Putin
1:50:04actually begun to produce icons I can
1:50:06show them to you if you doubt me you can
1:50:08look them up on the Weekly Standard
1:50:10website any of you tonight icons of the
1:50:12Russian Orthodox Church showing Joseph
1:50:14Stalin with a halo around his head this
1:50:16is not atheism nor is it secularism if
1:50:20William Wilberforce was indeed animated
1:50:22by Chris Christianity I'll make this I
1:50:24have to make this my closing point in
1:50:26his campaign against slavery he should
1:50:28have been because it was about time that
1:50:31there was a Christian who said that this
1:50:33trade had gone on long enough and any
1:50:36Christian should have felt responsible
1:50:37for saying so because for the entire
1:50:39period of its existence slavery and the
1:50:41slave trade had been Justified directly
1:50:44by reference to the Christian religion
1:50:46and by direct references to the warrant
1:50:49for slavery that's contained in holy
1:50:50writ and in scripture and that's why we
1:50:54like the captain who wrote Amazing Grace
1:50:56because he'd been the captain of a slave
1:50:57ship and he was just as much of a
1:50:59Christian when he was doing the first
1:51:00thing as he was when he was doing the
1:51:03second the chance is though that a
1:51:05member of the American anti-slavery
1:51:07Society Thomas Payne uh Benjamin
1:51:10Franklin the others was not a Christian
1:51:12would be extremely high the chances that
1:51:15until very very very later in the 19th
1:51:17century a defender of slavery would be a
1:51:19Christian was statistically enormous it
1:51:22therefore proved proves absolutely
1:51:24nothing about Christianity that some of
1:51:26its members finally turned against one
1:51:28of their foulest uh practices and
1:51:31impositions and if if I was a Christian
1:51:34I would avoid this argument very
1:51:36carefully as tending to show that there
1:51:38is no basis um in faith uh for Morality
1:51:43that our morality is innate to us and
1:51:45it's very nice when sometimes religion
1:51:48catches up to morality for a change
1:51:50thank
1:51:51you
1:52:08please help me
1:52:09andent but just on behalf I just want to
1:52:11say on behalf of the university and the
1:52:13socratic Club I want to thank you for
1:52:15coming here this uh taking this
1:52:17opportunity this evening and it's been a
1:52:18pleasure to provide the Birmingham
1:52:20Community with this forum so thank you
1:52:21very much for your attention
1:52:23[Applause]
1:52:27[Music]
1:52:29there will be a book signing in the back
1:52:31um shortly uh thank all of you for
1:52:33[Music]
1:52:51coming
1:52:57[Music]

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