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Christina Hoff Sommers on how Feminism went awry — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:15hi I'm Bill Crystal welcome back to
0:17conversations I'm very pleased to be
0:19joined today by Christina Summers
0:21president scholar at the American
0:22Enterprise Institute former philosophy
0:24Professor but once a philosophy
0:26Professor always a philosophy Professor
0:28right uh author of many important Works
0:30including most recently uh Freedom
0:33feminism and of course the star of a
0:35wonderful series of YouTube videos the
0:37factual feminist yes so we'll talk about
0:40feminism in a minute but I'm I thought
0:42maybe we'd Begin by just I was minding
0:44my own business one day a few couple
0:45months ago I guess and suddenly I'm
0:47looking online and that you're the
0:49subject of a huge controversy you're
0:50speaking at Overland and people are
0:52outraged and what was that what was that
0:54all what was that all about I am still
0:57trying to figure it out I have been
0:58lecturing on college campuses for years
1:01more years than I care to remember and
1:03uh it's often controversial young women
1:05come to spar and debate because I I'm a
1:08moderate feminist and I take exception
1:10to some of the eccentricities on the
1:12campus and that that has created
1:15controversy well at Oberland they didn't
1:18come to debate they first of all they
1:20said that I was going to give them PTSD
1:23and they organized a safe space a safe
1:26room where young women could flee if
1:29what my argument ments created you know
1:31led to panic attacks what was a
1:33terrifying topic you were discussing I I
1:35was I had been invited by a small group
1:38of the Libertarians and Republicans of
1:40Oberland and I was just going to talk
1:42about the need for reforming feminism
1:45however the very idea that I was
1:47questioning sacred tenants of the
1:49religion of feminism uh was apparently
1:52triggering they 30 young women fled to a
1:55safe room 30 young women and a dog I
1:57triggered a dog I feel bad about that
2:00yeah that's terrible they literally what
2:01they showed up how does it work so
2:03you're giving a talk and they show up
2:05and then they throw their hands up well
2:06they did a number of things first of all
2:07there were some ferocious
2:09Facebook uh debates about my uh coming
2:12to campus and it was interesting because
2:15and this happened at Georgetown as well
2:18the administration became so concerned
2:20about these young women and what they
2:22were saying on Facebook about their
2:24safety they became concerned about my
2:26safety and for the first time I had
2:28armed guards on campus for being a
2:31moderate feminist and recommending some
2:34reforms uh and questioning statistics
2:36they didn't like that that I question
2:38the statistics on women's victimization
2:40so they now that was that were just one
2:42thing to have the safe spaces uh they
2:45had two young women that gave a little a
2:47talk I wasn't even allowed in the room
2:48and the room of course was very large
2:50because there had been so much
2:51controversy they it attracted interest
2:53they would have been better off ignoring
2:55me but they created all of this interest
2:57so it was a huge room and entered after
3:01they'd been given a kind of a a talk by
3:04these two sort of therapeutic activists
3:07help told them you know not to be upset
3:10and then the first three rows were young
3:13women with red duct tape on their mouths
3:16and I I don't know why they and they
3:18stay that way throughout the lecture
3:20with the and then everybody with protest
3:22signs and I was heckled and Jered it was
3:24funny however there was one moment where
3:27a a um a very
3:30lovely philosophy Professor just sort of
3:32stood up and urged the crowd to be civil
3:35and and he was told to be quiet and sit
3:37down it was it was a mob so here we are
3:39at Oberlin College with these students
3:44who were you know among the most
3:46privileged who are supposed to be
3:47getting a good education and this is how
3:49they acted out and then to behave that
3:52way to to to me all right a
3:54controversial speaker but their own
3:56Professor it was it was sad a sad
3:59spectacle
4:00yeah how bad are I mean I myself always
4:02had a slightly I don't know can't take
4:04it seriously attitude towards this and
4:05I've spoken on many many campuses been
4:07heckled a few times I gu attacked once
4:08by a banana cream pie um that's not so
4:12well that's not so fun that's funny also
4:13but in a certain way you think what if
4:14it were something more you know serious
4:16that could hurt you but nothing happened
4:18of course but but yeah what what about
4:20the campuses I mean you've taught at in
4:23colleges universities and then as you
4:25say spoken to million of them as a
4:27prominent uh
4:30public intellectual on many topics
4:32really boy feminism um how bad is it I
4:36mean what do you think and how much
4:37effect is it having on young people and
4:39how much is it stifling speech and
4:41thought I mean what what's your take on
4:42it I would say that right now on many
4:45caps is probably not all but and many
4:47and especially small liberal arts
4:48colleges the more Elite the university
4:51the more likely this is happening I
4:52think it's a a contagion of
4:55Hysteria and I don't use those words
4:57lightly because in the past I always
4:59thought it was eccentric it was strange
5:00they were these young women were a
5:02little um you know carried away this is
5:04more than carried away and it's not all
5:08the students of course but a sort of
5:11critical mass of young women and some
5:13young men uh believe that students at
5:17place like swathmore or wesleyian Bard
5:21College Columbia University that they
5:23are uh the women are captive to this
5:27tyrannical patriarchal oppressive
5:29violent culture
5:30and they aren't going to take it but on
5:32the other hand they've been so injured
5:34and traumatized that a lot of effort
5:36goes into ministering to their their
5:39various afflictions and so they in the
5:42this was described in the New York Times
5:44at Brown
5:45University they organized a
5:47debate and I think a Libertarian
5:49feminist who questions some of the
5:51victim statistics was going to debate a
5:53a feminist who believes in them well
5:55just the idea of having a debate was too
5:56much for the brown students and with the
5:59full approval of the president they
6:00organized a safe room that came equipped
6:03with uh they they played tapes of
6:06frolicking puppy dogs and they had
6:08Bubbles and and games it was so
6:11infantilizing this is what feminism has
6:13come to it's Madness well let's talk how
6:17did feminism since you read about this
6:19for how did iten yeah how did this
6:21happen it really is shocking actually I
6:24tried to warn people that something was
6:25a Miss many years ago uh it was uh in
6:28the late S I was teaching philosophy and
6:32the chair of my department said well why
6:34don't you teach feminist Theory and at
6:36the time I didn't where was this at
6:37Clark University I sent away for the
6:39textbooks and I thought okay I'm a
6:41feminist and um a philosopher I assumed
6:46when I sent away for the texts that it
6:48would be like other philosophy textbooks
6:50that this feminist Theory text would be
6:52the best that was thought and said you
6:54know about issues that concern women so
6:56really good Arguments for and against
6:59affirmative action or surrogate
7:01motherhood or abortion and so because I
7:04I just thought it was a sacred
7:05commandment of of college teaching Thou
7:08shalt teach both sides of the argument
7:11and that's what I had always done I
7:12never saw the classroom as a place for
7:14me to pass along my beliefs particular
7:17beliefs to students but to give them U
7:19the tools to to make decisions
7:21themselves these textbooks shocked me
7:24they were uh first of all they were
7:27putting forward something that looked to
7:29me as a philosopher it looked to me as a
7:31conspiracy theory about the patriarchy
7:34and most of the the selections were
7:37mutually reinforcing rather than real
7:39debate you just had uh it it it seemed
7:42like propaganda and naively I thought
7:45well this is a mist and I sent away for
7:47more and I became concerned and I went
7:49to the American philosophical
7:51Association and gave a paper on uh you
7:55know what's gone wrong with feminist
7:56Theory now typically when you go to the
7:59AP a it's contentious and uh you know
8:03everyone in the audience tries to find
8:04fault with what you say I was prepared
8:06for that but then you go out for drinks
8:08we did not go out for drinks and I was
8:10not prepared for people hissing and
8:13booing and and stamping their feet it
8:16was I was and and that evening I was
8:18excommunicated from a religion I didn't
8:20even know existed and I'll tell you
8:22before that uh as a woman teaching
8:25philosophy my articles were sometimes
8:26included in in women's anthologies and I
8:29was invited to review papers for
8:31feminist journals after that it all
8:34stopped I became an enemy it was very
8:37alarming to me and this is because of
8:39your thought and because argument not
8:41because of you discriminated against a
8:44students something ridiculous like that
8:46this was this was shocking and um I
8:50wrote about it and I wrote about some
8:52other things and then the Atlantic
8:53Monthly commissioned me to write a paper
8:55about feminist Theory and women's
8:57studies I was not an authority on this
8:59except that I had encountered something
9:02troubling n a lot of things about it
9:04were troubling not just the conspiracy
9:06theories the denigration of men it was
9:09almost as if women are from Venus Men
9:10Are from hell this seemed to be running
9:12through the books and then there were
9:15statistics to prop up this very grim
9:17worldview and they were ludicrous at
9:20first uh when I was writing the Atlantic
9:22piece I thought well maybe I'll hire a
9:23statistician to look at these I didn't
9:25need a statistician these studies were
9:28preposterous claiming that you know the
9:30AAW had a study that girls have a
9:33massive loss of self-esteem and this was
9:36supposed to be a an an American Tragedy
9:38they called it and I called up some
9:40psychologists who had not come upon any
9:43such Affliction and all kids sort of go
9:46up and down at adolescence there was
9:48nothing remarkable going on with girls
9:50and yet they had done this ridiculous
9:52species study there were other
9:55statistics I questioned so it just
9:56seemed to me at the at the heart of
9:58feminist Theory was a body of
9:59egregiously false information and then
10:02the Twisted theories it was almost as if
10:04they took Carl Marx and crossed out
10:06class and put gender it was tedious and
10:09people were taking it seriously well as
10:12you know we kind of had a culture war in
10:14the 90s which many of us felt we won
10:17because we so what this article appear
10:19in the Atlantic I'm trying to remember
10:20actually interestingly enough a version
10:22of it ended up in the new Republic
10:24because the feminist philosophers found
10:25out that I was writing it and they
10:28organized a campaign to persuade the
10:31Atlantic not to publish it and frighten
10:33them and then the Chronicle of Higher
10:35Education came to do a piece about this
10:37dangerous woman and actually it turned
10:40out to be very sympathetic and uh the
10:43the uh women philosophers were Furious
10:46because they looked like sensors and and
10:50uh just trying to silence a woman who
10:51had some disagreements with them they
10:54came off badly but this is but this so
10:56this started a long time ago and this is
11:00the early '90s or yeah well it was yeah
11:02the early '90s
11:03so that's and then after when I was
11:07researching the paper for the Atlantic
11:10which ended up in the new Republic and
11:11it ended up being whoo feminism I mean
11:13it was the research that led to the book
11:15who stole feminism so then I learned
11:18more and more and I went to the National
11:21Women's studies Association in
11:231992 and I took my sister with me um
11:27who's a psychologist and she found it
11:29clinically
11:30interesting uh because even then you saw
11:33the identity politics spinning out of
11:34control it was it was the whole this was
11:37a an academic
11:39conference uh and but it was all about
11:42our grievance our Grievances and our
11:44healing needs and we were supposed to
11:46break down in groups based on based on
11:48our oppression identity so there was a
11:50group for Jewish women Asian women black
11:53women overweight women none of the
11:55groups Prov stable they everybody's
11:57fighting because they're then the gay
11:59and gay black women and the you wanted
12:01to separate and the and the gay Jewish
12:03women wanted to separate they and and
12:05then there was an eruption from a group
12:06of women who were furious at all of us
12:08because they had been marginalized women
12:10with allergies they had a list of
12:13Demands that next year no one would
12:15bring clothes that were dry cleaned and
12:17uh wear perfume and so forth and then
12:19the echo feminists were Furious because
12:21they were serving cream with the coffee
12:23it was my sister said it's like there
12:26it's it's a conference of borderline
12:28personalities I said Oh no you're it's
12:30just it's just you know nervous
12:32overwrought feminists and because by
12:34then I was sort of used to it but
12:36through my sister's eyes I could see the
12:37madness so it was there but it's almost
12:39as if today when I go to Oberlin or or
12:42Georgetown or same things similar thing
12:44happened at UCLA uh what I think these
12:47are like the the daughters of those
12:48women who were at that Austin conference
12:51so they passed that along through their
12:53classrooms these gender Scholars and so
12:56and you are a feminist I mean not that
12:58one has to be and it would be legitimate
13:00to criticize it I suppose you know sort
13:02of in Toto but that's not your position
13:04as I understand it right this I've
13:05always defended Equity feminism the what
13:10the basic Enlightenment classical
13:12feminism that women are the equal to men
13:14and we deserve the same rights and
13:16opportunities and dignity and freedom
13:18everything Mary wolstoncroft wanted and
13:20then John Stewart Mill and Susan B
13:22Anthony down to the the second wave of
13:25feminism the early days uh there there
13:29were actually conservatives and liberals
13:30who work together if you look at the
13:32Equal Pay Act and many of the Supreme
13:34Court rulings it was conservative courts
13:36where women won some of the greatest
13:38victories the basic rights uh that had
13:42you
13:43know had been problematic for women
13:45where you were there were just sort of
13:47you could be arbitrarily fired because
13:49you got pregnant or if you were married
13:51that that sort of thing pushed out so I
13:54of course I believe in that I think it's
13:55a great American success story something
13:57to be proud of but uh today and I've
14:01been arguing this since I went to that
14:03feminist conference or when I read those
14:04textbooks I've been arguing this is not
14:06what feminism should be it's not what
14:08it's about and for that I am considered
14:12dangerous is there a moment just looking
14:14at the history of feminism is there
14:16moment where you think it decisively
14:18goes off the r there's a kind of key
14:20juncture where Equity feminism is
14:22replaced by I think it was the battle
14:24over the
14:26erra um because
14:29in many ways oh again everyone wanted to
14:32there was no way the ER wasn't going to
14:34pass it had gone through States and and
14:36conservatives and liberals several
14:38Republican presidents supported it
14:41philis Schley uh was someone I think
14:44called her from a bookstore or something
14:46and said come and debate the ER and she
14:48didn't know much about it she said well
14:49I don't know what I think of it let me
14:51debate she was more interested in uh
14:53arms control and so forth and uh she
14:57read about it and she had this idea that
15:00uh these women were not simply it wasn't
15:02simply about equality that they wanted
15:03to erase the sex difference and so
15:06things like girls schools and boy
15:07schools wouldn't be allowed or you'd
15:09have women in combat with she thought
15:12they were going to do that and uh so she
15:14started debating them and this is the
15:16mid-70s I guess and they were they they
15:18they said yes that's that's what we want
15:19to do so it it had widespread support
15:22because people I think a lot of people
15:24were equity feminists and thought let's
15:26just you know it was almost a
15:29a gesture of respect and regard for
15:31women and acknowledgement of women's
15:33equality but the they were Hardline
15:36feminists who really were much more
15:38ambitious and I think that's what philis
15:40schafle showed and then as uh she would
15:44go and tell women and it was she she
15:46launched one of the greatest sort of
15:47Grassroots campaign uh in in in American
15:51history uh because she would get groups
15:53of women to look at what it would mean
15:56and women who thought maybe they were in
15:58favor of it and then they would see what
15:59it would mean to American society and
16:02they started to turn against it and then
16:03it went backwards and I mean the votes
16:06people started resending their votes or
16:08or and then it started to lose so I
16:11think so what happened is the the
16:12feminists who pushed it and who had a a
16:15very ambitious agenda were so bitter and
16:18so angry and they felt they'd been let
16:21down um but you know if you go back
16:24you'll see that they could have passed
16:26it there was once a debate on Firing
16:28Line between uh I guess it was Phil
16:31Schley and uh someone from now and you
16:35could tell that bill Buckley was kind of
16:36in favor of the erra because he just
16:40like everyone else thought it was just
16:41reasonable and fair you know you had to
16:43be a kudin to be against it and and
16:46during that debate Phil said well if
16:48they would just have a provision that
16:50they weren't going to require that we
16:52eliminate every manifestation of
16:55difference you know if they wouldn't put
16:57women in combat and they wouldn't Bann
16:59Single Sex schools and then Mr Buckley
17:03said well surely he said this to the
17:04woman from now you're not going to do
17:06that she said yes you know yes we are
17:09and you can see he was very surprised so
17:11this was going to be a program for
17:12radical social
17:14engineering and and this was this back
17:16in the 70s I mean these many of the
17:18women in combat that's controversial
17:20right now it's controversial in the
17:21military even among women in the
17:23military most of them don't want to be
17:24in combat so it was really the women in
17:27combat issue uh that was pretty powerful
17:31uh to persuade women what is this all
17:33about well anyway those women who lost
17:36the ER a lot of them retreated into
17:38their enclaves and into the universities
17:41and they they learned a lot about
17:44organization from this campaign they had
17:46they they had lost but they were uh they
17:50had not lost their resolve and they have
17:52been working ever since and everyone
17:54else thought okay well let's move on
17:56they never moved on and they're that
17:58that kind of Hardline feminism it had it
18:01this this Center of uh in the
18:04universities where it has tenure yeah
18:08and how does but how feminism was about
18:10strengthening women or women being
18:12strong let's say and being treated
18:14equally obviously uh and now it's not
18:16about women or I know I call it fainting
18:19couch feminism it's Victorian and it's
18:22it's the world view now has become the
18:25you know a kind of battle between
18:27fragile Fair Maiden
18:29injured little birds and then these male
18:32predators and so it's it's absurd what's
18:35going on and do you think people believe
18:36it and I've always wonder this I mean
18:38most girls if I can use that term young
18:40women or girls on campus really feel
18:42that way or are they just sort of taken
18:44advantage of by a few ideologues and
18:46sort of a few of them are persuaded to
18:48come demonstrate when you speak but I me
18:50right do they really believe it I don't
18:52think so I think the majority of people
18:55are resilient and sensible and you can
18:58professors can say a lot of things and
18:59you you don't really take it seriously
19:02uh however there's a uh in almost every
19:05College there's a a small group around
19:08the Women's Center and they believe it
19:11uh they believe in this these theories
19:12about the patriarchy and and male
19:14toxicity and so forth and they have been
19:17empowered I think the reason that we're
19:18seeing so much acting out now and what I
19:22encountered at Oberland and at
19:23Georgetown at UCLA this is happening
19:25because of a specific event which is it
19:28in October October of uh when I was in
19:322011 I think it was April 4th
19:342011 the assistant Secretary of civil
19:36rights sent out the dear colleague
19:38letter reading colleges the riot act
19:41about the rape culture and saying you
19:43have to take Draconian measures or these
19:45young women can
19:47sue and so these young women were
19:49suddenly they could be litigious so you
19:52add the bitterness the false statistics
19:55this paranoid view about the world and
19:57you can sue any one who questions you I
20:00mean we just had a professor at
20:02Northwestern a liberal feminist uh who
20:05posted an article in The Chronicle of
20:06Higher Education making fun of uh this
20:10whole all of the silliness about uh
20:14trigger warnings and safe spaces and
20:17microaggressions she made fun of it well
20:19two young women at Northwestern brought
20:21a title n lawsuit and her University
20:24investigated the professor for the
20:26contents of her article and people say
20:28oh well the system worked because she
20:30was she was found not guilty no you
20:32should not be investigated for an
20:34article in the chronicle of her higher
20:36education I'm sure now I would be on
20:39constantly investigating so striking
20:41about it I mean it's so contrary it
20:42seems to me just such an obvious way to
20:45well there are two things there the
20:46feminist side of it and the academic
20:47side of it right the academy it's one
20:49thing if she were consistently giving
20:51male students A's and female students
20:53bees then someone can legitimately
20:54complain and that is within the
20:56University's Providence if grades are
20:58not not being fairly there's no such
21:00claim never almost never is there such a
21:02claim it's she writes an article and you
21:05could investigate people isn't that sort
21:06of contrary to the whole principle of
21:08the University I mean absolutely and if
21:12if the universities are going to become
21:15instead of pursuing these ideals of of
21:19free expression and the purer of Truth
21:21and they replace it with the pursuit of
21:23safety and you know creating Comfort
21:25zones and safety zones uh they those
21:28universities will lose their reason for
21:29being I mean since the time of Socrates
21:32the academy education has been
21:34associated with with debate and and
21:38discussion and and contention
21:41contentiousness and without that what do
21:44you have well what you have is uh I
21:47don't know these little islands of
21:49repression as they call universities are
21:51known islands of repression in a sea of
21:53Freedom well I think it's time to
21:55liberate these islands but I don't know
21:57who's going to do that right now who has
21:58the power to challenge because to
22:01challenge the uh the sort of feminist
22:05Juggernaut that exists on campus it can
22:07be a career annihilating and even if
22:09you're Larry Summers president of
22:11Harvard University then who could be
22:14more entitled and more empowered and he
22:15was driven out for largely because he
22:18dared to entertain the possibility that
22:21there might be some differences between
22:23men and women that could explain the the
22:26that there are so many more men than
22:28women in in higher education I mean in
22:30in the Sciences I guess what strikes me
22:32as someone who doesn't follow this you
22:33know one 100th as closely as you is
22:35feminism which I think I once understood
22:38sort of what the point of it was and
22:39won't get debate various aspects of it
22:41and I mean now it's become so
22:44complicated and confusing is feminism
22:46about strengthening women or about women
22:48being weak is it about gender really
22:50matters and we need to be serious about
22:52that or gender is a total invention and
22:55there's no such the difference is
22:56arbitrary I mean how did that how did
22:59that happen and well if you're asking is
23:01it a consistent body of beliefs no it is
23:04full of contradictions and confusion and
23:08you know I in principle gender studies
23:11could have been you know an interesting
23:13new discipline but a new discipline uh
23:17to have a new discipline suggests that
23:18there is a a methodology that would be
23:21mastered where is that in gender studies
23:25uh it doesn't exist it's just uh as I
23:28said kind of a combination of of Twisted
23:32theories derivative Theory uh and a
23:36propaganda in my opinion not that there
23:38AR there's some value here and there but
23:40overall it it has has not had the
23:43benefit of criticism because you
23:45suddenly have a a a group of Scholars
23:49and but lots of types of criticism are
23:52just out of order not permitted and
23:55there's a system of quality control in
23:56the academy which is uh per you know not
23:59just is you will be criticized and you
24:02will have to give an accounting well
24:05they just haven't had to do that so for
24:06years they can go uh on with oh gender
24:09is a social construction well who thinks
24:12that you have to have years of gender
24:14studies to believe that right it's so
24:16obvious to everyone else that not that
24:17it's purely biological it's obviously a
24:19complicated mix of biology and and
24:23culture but there you know there's no
24:25Society in the entire anthropological
24:27record where you find that the the men
24:29are the nurturers and the women are the
24:31are the you know soldiers it they don't
24:34exist and you know again and again we
24:36see that there that it's real there's
24:39something femininity and masculinity are
24:41real and most people not all but most
24:44people many of the stereotypes are true
24:47that women do tend to be more nurturing
24:50and uh risk averse and uh have usually a
24:53richer emotional vocabulary and uh um
24:58men tend to be a little less uh um
25:02explicit about their emotions
25:03emotionally flat we'll say stoical to be
25:05nice please please do more stoical more
25:08competitive more uh and and they do
25:11engage in a lot of risky Behavior For
25:13Better or Worse men tend to show up at
25:15the extremes of success and failure uh
25:18more than women because they are some
25:21sometimes more uh um uh just
25:24single-minded pursuit of something some
25:27obsessive Pur suits more likely to do
25:29that than women but you take gender
25:31studies and they say oh it's all a
25:32social construction unless you're gay
25:34then they say well okay that's just
25:36that's the way they are and then if
25:38you're a trans I don't know how they're
25:39going to account for that and what I say
25:42I do believe that these are legitimate
25:44human rights movements the gay rights
25:46movement the the the trans movement um
25:50but I I don't think that whatever we're
25:52in third wave fourth wave feminism is a
25:55legitimate Human Rights Movement I think
25:57that it's uh just a group of people that
25:59have gone off in an extreme and they're
26:01kind of pretending to be part of these
26:03other efforts but they're not and
26:06they're also at war with they say oh for
26:10sexual Liberation but they're not really
26:12because if you're conventionally
26:13feminine which many women are or
26:15conventionally masculine uh then that's
26:17they problematize that and they or they
26:19feel sorry for you or they think you
26:21don't have free will so I mean what's
26:24sad about gender studies I always
26:25thought this when I was briefly in the
26:27academy is it's a very interesting topic
26:29I mean it wouldn't be foolish to
26:30organize course and people have for
26:32decades of course and centuries on men
26:34and women and literature and history and
26:37women who were at if you want to use
26:39this term atypical or you know and how
26:41how how did Queen Elizabeth or Margaret
26:43thater succeed in societies that weren't
26:44friendly to them and there are all kinds
26:46of lessons to be learned many but
26:48actually there's no actual study of
26:50gender in gender studies because if you
26:51actually studied them you would say all
26:53the things you just said eloquently all
26:55of which were Politically Incorrect and
26:57you couldn't say I suppose could say too
27:00many forbidden topics too many forbidden
27:02topics uh and and too many sort of uh
27:06ideological you know Purity tests and so
27:10you get a group of likeminded people
27:12Marching In mostly sisterly solidarity
27:16and um it's it and as I said these
27:19people have tenure and as we were
27:22talking before about the the culture war
27:25in the '90s um while we I feel like my
27:29side uh won the argument and even among
27:31feminists there were a group of us who
27:33were against Katherine McKinnon and
27:34Andrea dorin and the time they wanted to
27:37to censor you know the Playboy magazine
27:40and things like that and we were against
27:42it and almost everybody agreed with us
27:44and uh even at that time uh my defense
27:48of moderate feminists and questioning
27:50they were talking about the rape culture
27:52even then and there just wasn't any
27:53evidence of such a thing and you know I
27:55had New York Magazine and in the New
27:57York Times The Washington Post they were
27:59mostly on my side our side of the debate
28:03but at the same time while we were
28:05winning these arguments and then the
28:06media kind of got bored with the whole
28:08thing these women were quietly assuming
28:11the assistant professorships and so
28:13they've been training with the same
28:15textbooks that I found the textbooks
28:17even became more
28:19unhinged and uh just irresponsible
28:22one-sided and so you have by now the the
28:25graduates of these programs are coming
28:27out and they start stting their blogs
28:29and you know they their their podcasts
28:31and and the journalists and they're you
28:33know they're busy and they're very
28:35impatient to change the society and I
28:38don't know if people realize that they
28:40what they learned and and how little
28:42they understand about gender because
28:44they were they were raised on dogma and
28:47and ideology not not any real encounter
28:50with with knowledge with science of of
28:54sex differences the science on sex
28:55difference is an interesting debate
28:57right and and very volatile and
28:59constantly changing and but that's not
29:02what you typically get in gender studies
29:05when people like me I've always had a
29:06tendency well there's a lot of silliness
29:07from the academy but who cares but I
29:09think there are two ways and you've
29:10written on both in which it has an an
29:13effect one is uh sort of freedom of
29:15speech and even of thought in the
29:17academy especially when those same
29:18people you're describing become
29:19administrators and then when the Obama
29:21Administration hands down an edict that
29:23makes it so much easier to Sue and
29:24suddenly you have a pretty big complex
29:26don't you of administ trators and
29:28lawyers and assistant Deans and feminist
29:31exactly professors a few students who
29:34really
29:35are curtailing freedom of inquiry on
29:39they campus aren't they and you have
29:40this common so now you have the the
29:42lawyers who oh you know always want to
29:44air on the side of let everybody just
29:47keep quiet and be as you know say things
29:50that are just within the range of of
29:51approv views then you have these Busy
29:54Bodies these apparo you know who get a
29:57salary for being busy bodies and making
30:00rules and and commissioning studies
30:03there is now a prolifer proliferation of
30:05phony studies on abuse and
30:09how and actually there is a binge
30:12drinking culture on campus and there are
30:14sexual assaults it is a serious problem
30:17but it is not an epidemic uh comparable
30:21to the war torn Congo but the statistics
30:24that are routinely used and what about
30:26this one in5 col female college students
30:28have been the victims of sexual it's the
30:29result of advocacy research it's a
30:32result of you can get that you can get a
30:34very alarming finding if you're willing
30:36to interview a non-representative sample
30:39of people uh and uh if you're willing to
30:42have definitions that are very broad
30:45that include a lot of behavior most of
30:47us don't think of as assault or
30:48certainly not criminally prosecutable
30:50assault H if you just play with those
30:52you can get an epidemic and that's what
30:54they do over and over again now the
30:56Bureau of Justice statistics does their
30:58annual crime survey and they find one
31:01that rape like all crimes is way down
31:05it's I think a 41e low or something
31:08extraordinary and uh they also find that
31:10it's not one in four or one in five but
31:13they they looked specifically at the
31:15campus and found a figure something like
31:16I don't know one in 50 still too much
31:19but it is not the same it's it's it's
31:22the difference between you know the war
31:24TR Congo and and and you know the United
31:27States it's a huge difference and uh
31:31they have the best most the best trained
31:35criminologists and statisticians and
31:37they're they're they do all the proper
31:39controls and uh but their St their their
31:43data is not taken seriously people go
31:45for the advocacy research and again I
31:48saw that happening Mary C she was
31:50handpicked by Gloria tyum and she was a
31:52researcher I think she was at Kent State
31:55and she did a rape study and found an
31:57epidemic
31:58and then that was you know that was her
32:00ticket I mean she was then at I think
32:02University of Arizona and called in as
32:04an expert and cited as one in four one
32:07in four uh but it wasn't
32:10until the uh this assistant Secretary of
32:13Education sort of G gave the the the one
32:17in
32:17four uh activists now they say one in
32:20five it gave them this tool this uh
32:23really they she she weaponized their
32:26paranoia and it seems me when you've
32:28been attacked the debunking the
32:30statistics is one of the main things
32:31that offends them right because that's
32:33sort of the ground I guess of their
32:35victimhood and their uh especially the
32:37wage Gap when I was at Oberlin I was on
32:41lecturing and I said at one point you
32:43know you could the young women here you
32:45want to close the wage Gap change your
32:47major because women another sex
32:50difference despite three years of
32:52Consciousness raising and and gender
32:54neutral pronouns women and men still
32:56major in rather different things I mean
32:57if you look at who are the computer
33:00science Majors physics math mostly guys
33:03psychology you know art history uh early
33:07childhood education almost all young
33:09women and and there are many fields that
33:12were once total totally dominated by men
33:15but women like them and there there was
33:16no way to stop us and we've taken over
33:18like veterinary medicine for whatever
33:20reason and and so when I hear oh well
33:23the reason women aren't in engineering
33:24is because there's a hostile environment
33:26well maybe there was a environment and
33:28law and journalism that didn't stop
33:30women maybe there's just not the same
33:32eagerness to be an engineer as there is
33:34to be an educator or a journalist lawyer
33:38veteran veterinarian veterinarian so
33:41anyway uh so at Overland I just said to
33:44them you could change your majors and
33:47you know if you want to earn a lot of
33:48money when you graduate be the be a
33:51petroleum engineer or a naval go into
33:53Naval architecture or Metallurgy you
33:56should we should have gone into allergy
33:58apparently a lot of money there and
34:01someone screamed out don't tell me what
34:03to do you know they were I think they
34:05think that you should be able to major
34:07in uh you know feminist theater or
34:11something and earn as much as a
34:13petroleum engineer in a fair society
34:15that that you know I was not
34:18acknowledging that Injustice and I don't
34:20I mean you've had such success with the
34:22the video series The factual feminist
34:23say I'm going say a word about that but
34:25also what are the main what are the most
34:27striking distortions to you the wage
34:28issue the rape question there's so many
34:30different areas you've taken on this is
34:32the thing I I've been making these we
34:34weekly videos but five minutes
34:37correcting a myth once a week we don't
34:39always manage once a week especially in
34:40the summer but the hope is that it'll be
34:42once a week um and at one point my
34:45mother said well you're aren't you going
34:46to run out of topics I mean how many
34:47myths can there be I said I told no I
34:49had the same thought went after the
34:50first dozen or so I said I I could go on
34:54for years and and this is a bit of an
34:56exaggeration but not not much almost
34:59everything we think we know about men
35:01and women about women in depression
35:03women in the workplace women in
35:04education in every cont every domain is
35:08false or or just because these spin
35:11Mistresses they they spin and it's so
35:14irritating to me why do they do that
35:16know if you have a very rigorous study
35:18that shows low levels of victimization
35:20they ignore it if you have the the
35:22shoddiest specious study bogus it goes
35:26right into the textbooks and once it's
35:28there it can't be corrected and there's
35:31a sociologist Joel Bess that said that a
35:33false statistic that gets into the media
35:36Echo chamber can never be corrected he
35:37said it's harder to kill than a vampire
35:40well I have found that a a false you
35:42know a feminist victim statistic it is
35:45the hardest to kill of all they are
35:46Beyond correction they are Beyond
35:48rational analysis so and and that's
35:51troubling to me as a just as a a
35:54philosopher as a as a person that
35:56there's that's propaganda so you take
35:58sensitive young women freshman year and
36:01they want to improve the world and and
36:04they find out that women are being
36:06cheated out of their salaries denied
36:08their self-esteem dying in droves from
36:11eating disorders caused by men the
36:15patriarchy toxic masculinity they're
36:18likely to be raped and that's if they're
36:20not already dead from suicide you know
36:23on and on uh I'm overstating a little
36:26bit but not by much I mean when I first
36:28wrote who's told feminism glorious dyam
36:30and everyone was saying 150,000 girls
36:32die every year from anorexia nervosa it
36:35turned out to be closer to 500 or not I
36:38think that includes suicides I mean was
36:40it's a very small number and it's mostly
36:42young well it was so wrong uh and I
36:46corrected it and then I was thought to
36:48be insensitive to eating disorders but
36:50what I always say is no I'm not
36:52insensitive to any of these things I I
36:54I'm compassionate I care about these
36:56problems even the certainly the the
36:58sexual assault but I think that victims
37:00will be helped by truth and good
37:02research but they're not getting it
37:04because I think that these These
37:06ideologues are so carried away that they
37:09use they they will hang on so tenacious
37:13to the propaganda because they it's in
37:15the textbooks it's in the women's
37:18centers it's on the posters it's chanted
37:21at the marches I know I mean the idea
37:23that the rape culture thing adits
37:25horrible obviously any rape and any
37:27sexual assault unwanted uh sexual forced
37:31activity or anything like that taking
37:32advantage of people against all that but
37:34that's why some of us are a little more
37:35puritanical than the current a lot of us
37:37a lot of people became
37:40conservative in the I think that you
37:43think back the 60s and 70s it was
37:44liberals who were so soft on crime right
37:47and people were getting out there would
37:48be jokes someone's going to go to jail
37:49and he raped and murdered and so forth
37:51and oh you know he got uh three life
37:53sentences he'll be out in 10 years not
37:56exactly but that it was so infuriating
37:59and there were a lot of films and things
38:00that were and I think a lot of people
38:02became conservative because the Liberals
38:05were so so now it's very odd that and
38:07I'm not at all sympathetic to to
38:10criminals of any kind but who the
38:13criminals they they young men and many
38:16are getting falsely accused and then
38:18taken through these kangaroo courts
38:20taken through procedures that look like
38:22they were written by France kofka I
38:25actually became so concerned about these
38:28the this Injustice on the campus what's
38:30happening to young men I went back and
38:32and and I did told you before I think
38:34there's a kind of Hysteria around this
38:36rape culture idea that I went back and
38:38looked at the Salem Witch Trials to find
38:41out what finally stopped it one thing I
38:43found was that when very prominent
38:44people began to be accused and in
38:47particular one gentleman from Boston he
38:49was called a worthy gentleman from
38:50Boston he sued he brought a lawsuit
38:53against his accusers and that sort of
38:56slowed it down considerably so there are
38:59a number of people suing now I hope it
39:01slows it down but it's it's awful I mean
39:03I expected it as just collapse on its
39:05own TOS I was saying that these terrible
39:07accusations and then you go to a campus
39:09and you look walk around it doesn't look
39:11like a place where the girls think
39:12there's a one five chance that they're
39:14going to be what parent would child what
39:17mother so the whole thing we know what a
39:19war zone looks like but we know what an
39:20extremely dangerous neighborhood let's
39:22say when I was growing up in New York
39:24looks like and we know what precautions
39:26people take if they have to go into such
39:27neighborhood and I don't really think
39:28that's what your typical talking over
39:31looks like and yet they kind of can say
39:33with a straight face one I mean that's
39:34why I guess I always assumed it would
39:36just be laughed out of out of uh court
39:39but it but as you say it's front page of
39:42the newspapers and Tak now there there
39:45Motion Pictures there are every week
39:47another you know I think I was watch
39:50watching law order or something and it
39:52was a date rape scenario and all the
39:55cliches so it's uh eventually it it has
39:59to die down because it's so destructive
40:00and it's so illiberal and they seem to
40:04be using tial line to and I think they
40:07are I think that there's was a conscious
40:09decision to use tidal line to achieve
40:12their ends and to you take it Way Beyond
40:15its original purpose and uh but to use
40:18it to to resend the First Amendment and
40:21due process and I mean our our sort of
40:24moral and political Heritage is going to
40:26be wiped out because Title Nine and the
40:28need for women to be comfortable on
40:29campus and not even women it's most
40:32neurasthenic highly sense over sensitive
40:36women who feel that they they call it
40:38microaggression you know if someone
40:40would compliment you or hold a door uh
40:43that's called benevolent sexism and it's
40:45microaggressive I mean they have this
40:47whole worldview it's so tedious and
40:49unbelievable that anyone takes it
40:51seriously but they do I guess on campus
40:53it's such a bubble its own world they
40:55can sort of make you take it seriously
40:56in a way that I think could be harder in
40:58you can be shamed and boys can't get
41:00dates if they don't go along with it and
41:01you know as we know young men will often
41:04just whatever you know what am I
41:06supposed to say and I wanted to like me
41:08so they're not going to make a fuss so
41:10who's who's going to do it um and now I
41:14think it's pretty scary for a professor
41:16because and you've even seen U recently
41:19I think it was Vox had a professor who
41:22wrote a a piece anonymously that said
41:24I'm a liberal Professor but my liberal
41:26students terrify me because they're
41:27afraid they're going to do some say
41:30something wrong what kind of reaction do
41:31you get to the videos and to your
41:32writings I mean you must get a lot of
41:33emails and Communications are there
41:35young women saying thank you for saying
41:37this I can't say yes this is what's
41:39heartening is that um people will say
41:42things like I knew something was wrong
41:44and I'm so glad to see someone you know
41:47on my side or that that's you know
41:48you've and I'm just I am constantly I me
41:52once in a while I just get tired of it
41:53and say I just want to be reading I want
41:56to be a diletant I want to read 19th
41:57century novels I don't want to be
41:58fighting I didn't think this fight would
42:01last so long I mean I really thought
42:03maybe I'd fix it I went to the American
42:05philosophical session people say oh yes
42:07you're right let's let's get back on a
42:09on a straight path and and be
42:11accountable to reality well that never
42:13happened and others have joined me I
42:14mean I've had wonderful allies but they
42:16get tired too I mean all along there's C
42:19Kathy young and Katie royy Camille Pia
42:22my heroin my my favorite of all um and
42:26it's just it never ends one other
42:29consequence you've called attention to
42:31um in your book and other writing is the
42:33war on boys I mean that there's a real
42:36apart from the sort of Campus Insanity
42:38there's a real consequence on boy's
42:41achievement and well-being yes from the
42:44moment expl the argument and does it do
42:47you does it stand up now how long that
42:49book's a while I think all authors will
42:52probably say this but I actually believe
42:54that my book is probably more relevant
42:55now than it was when I wrote it because
42:57things have become a lot worse for for
42:59boys and young men the college Gap has
43:00grown intolerance for youthful male you
43:05know just uh liveliness is uh very high
43:09right now you we've seen a series of
43:11cases where little boys are suspended
43:12for school for playing cops and robbers
43:15or bang bang so almost from the moment a
43:18a child a male child enters school um
43:22he's there on sufferance because a lot
43:24of teachers have gone maybe they've gone
43:26through schools of of Education where
43:27they've learned some of these theories
43:29about toxic masculinity and uh many are
43:32unable to and not just teachers mothers
43:34and fathers too perhaps are unable to
43:36distinguish between healthy Rough and
43:39Tumble play which is the typical play of
43:41little boys and aggression Rough and
43:43Tumble play involves a lot of mock
43:45fighting and B you know sound effects
43:48and girls do it too but boys do it a lot
43:50more typically little girls there's a
43:53lot of theatrical imaginative play
43:55playing House playing School teachers
43:56like that mothers like that the boys
43:59you're always a little nervous about it
44:01as a mother of two boys there's a lot of
44:03uh this but experts on playground
44:07Dynamics like Anthony Pelini at the
44:08University of Minnesota will tell you
44:10that this is the healthy play and boys
44:12are learning critical skills and they're
44:14also just having a lot of fun forging
44:15friendships learning limits learning who
44:18they are their place in the pecking
44:19order through that rough play well you
44:23have schools now that view it as
44:25violence and but violence is very
44:27different if boys are violent and and
44:30hostile and aggressive they're not
44:32having fun they're not smiling and
44:33laughing when they're rough and tumbling
44:35boys are happy and as I said they're
44:37they're they're popular they're forging
44:39friendships well now on many CL schools
44:43you they don't want dodgeball I mean
44:45they don't want them playing you know
44:47games where anybody so it's a mix of the
44:49self-esteem movement and this fear of
44:51violence and and punishing little boys
44:54for the crime of being a boy yeah what
44:55is the effect of that ises that real
44:57effect as they grow up do you think I
44:58mean well I think that what's happened
45:02is it's probably the case that girls
45:04were always better at school and just
45:06more Cooperative I as I said before
45:08there is a difference and on average
45:10boys are less Cooperative more
45:11risk-taking and more rule breaking this
45:13is true cross-culturally there's no
45:15society that I'm aware of where you
45:18don't find more little boys will end up
45:19in the emergency room because of crazy
45:22antics you have uh more more boys are uh
45:26contentious and they challenge authority
45:28more so that's always been there so that
45:31they would never have been able to
45:33compete probably with girls when it
45:34comes to paying attention and me but
45:37teachers made a place for it and the
45:39thing is if boys weren't happy at school
45:43there was a time where they could maybe
45:45just get a high school degree and go and
45:47and still if they worked hard they could
45:49make a very good living and you could
45:50make it into the middle class so even
45:52though boys had a problem with school
45:55they they could they could be fine today
45:59it is very difficult bordering on
46:01impossible to go if you don't have
46:03education Beyond high school and
46:06increasingly young women are getting it
46:08and young men are not I mean just
46:09comparatively far more young women are
46:11getting it far more women in our
46:13colleges and universities it's
46:15approaching 57 it's already 57%
46:18approaching in some schools they worry
46:20about tipping they worry about so many
46:24um women that uh it's not that the young
46:27men won't want to go the young men don't
46:29mind if it's so terrible 70% women okay
46:33and they go there and have probably have
46:34a good but the young women don't want to
46:36go there so they the college
46:38administrators are now practicing a kind
46:40of affirmative action for boys but why
46:42are boys so poorly prepared they do
46:45better on their SATs you still find more
46:47boys than girls at the very very high
46:49end of you know in math performance uh
46:51it's quite a pronounced difference in in
46:54Male Achievement there but um boys we we
46:57have pretty good evidence that teachers
46:59don't like them as much and do boys are
47:01graded down for their bad behavior even
47:03so you might have a child who you know
47:05is very smart and very interested in
47:07history but he doesn't get a good grade
47:09be and this has been been researched
47:12carefully the teachers will Mark Mark a
47:14boy down academically for his
47:17comportment so boys there's probably
47:19grading bias against boys and um but but
47:23we don't have maybe I don't want this
47:26but we don't have men's groups in a
47:27men's Lobby right to to compete with the
47:30women's Lobby the women have as I said a
47:33juggernaut you cannot we're trying right
47:35now my assistant and I are trying to
47:36count up the number of groups advocating
47:39day and night for women and what is
47:42there for boys I mean almost there's a
47:44few groups fortunately but almost
47:46nothing so there are uh one uh
47:50psychologist said that in in schools
47:52today the gold standard is is girls and
47:55boys are not meeting that standard
47:57and so they're seen a sort of inadequate
47:59failing they don't you know if they're
48:01told to write stories a little boy there
48:03just one example a little boy named
48:05Jason's in California or Justin he was I
48:09don't know six or seven and he wrote a
48:10story about Pirates and he Illustrated
48:12it and it was sword fights and the
48:14teacher was very concerned and called in
48:16his parents and thought you he was a
48:18perfectly well behaved little boy but
48:19her this drawing and the father was
48:22shocked he said well he likes Pirates
48:25but there are swords and someone you
48:27know people are being killed and he said
48:30but he and then the father asked a very
48:33good question how can a teacher has so
48:35little sympathy with my son with his
48:37imagination how how's she going to be
48:38able to teach him and and he's just
48:41going to feel sh a shame so there are a
48:44lot of boys that are just shamed and
48:46their parents don't realize it because
48:48they just you know you're you're sort of
48:50mad at your kid if he comes home with
48:51bad grades you don't it doesn't occur to
48:53you that there could be this intolerance
48:54for who he is and this is very common so
48:58at a time where we should be doing
48:59everything we can to improve the
49:02educational prospects of boys we it we
49:04have just uh AB I think abandoned many
49:08of them had CHR we've been talking about
49:10men and women and it's just become
49:13suddenly this not suddenly but the last
49:14few years this huge political issue the
49:16waren women kind of amazing in a society
49:18which has probably made more progress
49:20towards genuine equality of opportunity
49:22for women and who's waging this War I
49:25don't understand I mean Republicans you
49:26haven't heard that Romney Romney
49:29personally is Republicans have daughters
49:31and and wives and they lot of Republican
49:33women I mean women in the society it's
49:36so absurd to speak of women as a as
49:38second class citizens or uh you know
49:41that I mean this was hison boo when I
49:43said this at oberin but women are not a
49:45subordinate class women are better
49:48educated than men women live longer
49:51probably have more choices on how they
49:53lead their lives I don't say that as a
49:54sex women don't face special problems
49:57and have special challenges but so do
49:59men so it's it's a complicated mix of
50:02benefits and burdens and nobody's Waring
50:04against anyone uh were you a little
50:07shocked by how that did seem to succeed
50:10politically for the Obama campaign in
50:112012 I kind of dismissed it out of hand
50:14at first and I just this is ludicrous
50:16who's going to believe this and then it
50:17turned out I don't know if how much
50:19people believed it but it seemed they
50:21thought it worked pretty well and mean
50:22well the the there's a general sense
50:25because a lot of of the information that
50:27we get about women come from the comes
50:30from the academy it's the Brain Trust
50:32these women that I've been describing
50:34and journalists depend on them
50:36politicians and both Republicans and
50:38Democrats draw on this and so um and and
50:42it becomes the conventional wisdom women
50:44are being cheated out of more than 25%
50:47of their salary now if you think about
50:49it if you could pay a woman you know 25
50:52cents Less on the dollar for the same
50:53job I mean every competent employer
50:56would fight hire all the males and just
50:57hire females what happens is when
51:00economists including feminist economists
51:02do the proper controls you look what did
51:04they major in in college how many years
51:06have they been in the workplace how many
51:08hours a week do they work how dangerous
51:10is the job you just look at relevant
51:12factors the wage Gap Narrows to the
51:15point of Vanishing but uh that's what
51:19not what we're told we're told and and
51:21kind of nurses a sense of injury in
51:23women and that someone's being bad bad
51:26employ lawyers so we never have an
51:29intelligent discussion it's reduced to
51:31platitudes and then it's used
51:33opportunistically and it's you know it's
51:36it's difficult for me because it's so
51:39seems so phony and there are a lot of
51:41good debates to have and and there are
51:43women's issues that should be on the
51:45table but the ones were allegedly you
51:49know that women are victims of a war is
51:50so
51:51absurd I guess it's hard for individual
51:53voters to know I mean if that's if those
51:55are the Statics how they know
51:57they might know in their own case that
51:58their own employer seems to be treating
52:00people well done polls I'll ask you are
52:02you cheated out of you know oh no not me
52:04but do you believe it's a big yes it's a
52:06huge problem so that's where we are this
52:09is sort of related but you become a
52:12heroin into a group I don't really know
52:14much about uh The Gamers the people who
52:16play video games um you didn't play a
52:19lot of video games I played an
52:20incredibly primitive form of video game
52:22a little bit in I guess college and grad
52:24school but uh well probably but I did
52:25that's all I did I played Pac-Man uh and
52:28inridge Hong I remember that kind of
52:31pathetically early primitive but now of
52:34course they're super sophisticated video
52:35games that make a fortune so they're
52:37very sophisticated so how did you become
52:39how did you get involved in that it was
52:40an accident I was reading a poll um that
52:45was being celebrated in a lot of
52:47journals uh and particularly Salon was
52:50very excited about a journal I don't
52:51entirely trust and the Daily Dot this
52:53and that were saying oh how wonderful
52:55there's been a revolution
52:57and the new Gamers you know the dominant
52:59demographic is middle-aged
53:01women and I thought H that's as the
53:04factual feminist I thought well I want
53:06to look into that because uh you know I
53:09don't know any I know a lot of women and
53:11I don't know any that I would call
53:12gamers although we do play bejweled and
53:15you know Candy Crush uh but what was
53:17going on so I looked at the study it was
53:19actually a reasonable study done by a
53:22you know a business group that that
53:26sells games and and what they've women
53:29are playing games but they didn't make a
53:31distinction between these sort of
53:34complicated video games that with
53:37consoles versus handheld you know right
53:42and um solitary it's still the yeah and
53:45it's still the case that males by are by
53:48and large the ones you would who become
53:50for whom it's a primary hobby I mean
53:52something they do more than if you look
53:54you do this more than 30 hours a week
53:56can is the most important thing and
53:58these young they're not and and and
54:00there are now there are Gamers all over
54:03the world all sorts of people more men a
54:06small group of very cool women but a lot
54:08of guys and passionate about these games
54:11and they go to you know Expos and
54:14they're and they had websites where
54:16they'll debate if you know a game you
54:19know a new game comes out and and they
54:21make a change this is you know could be
54:23very controversial they're very
54:24opinionated and passionate about this
54:27Hobby and they have a reason to be
54:28passionate because they've always been
54:29disapproved of their mothers didn't like
54:32it typically and their teachers and then
54:34every time there's a mass killing or
54:35something they go oh it was a video
54:37games video games fact is no one has
54:39ever been able to show a connection
54:41between video games even the violent
54:43shooter games and becoming violent there
54:45are a lot of well-adjusted people who
54:47enjoy the thrill of Grand Theft Auto and
54:50Grand Theft Auto it it looks horrible
54:52but it's meant to be a parody it's sort
54:54of a crazy
54:56extremely sophisticated I I looked at it
54:58for three minutes off I was just curious
55:01I mean it's very high quality in I mean
55:03and they're very hard yes and so
55:05challenging they're very challenging and
55:07in fact I now that I have this following
55:09among Gamers they're very smart and tech
55:12savvy and and they're artists and it's
55:14one of the most talented group of people
55:16I've ever encountered and and nice and
55:18friendly and we've had some meetups and
55:21we had one in Washington and and just as
55:24diverse as you can imagine and I mean
55:26more males than females certainly but
55:29you know they're different races and
55:31social classes but what unites them is
55:34this passion for games and it is mostly
55:36males that that play the most popular
55:38games you expose this is that how did
55:40you become there when I just made a
55:41video saying that I did not think that I
55:44a middle-aged woman was the dominant
55:48Market for games I said you know I might
55:50like a game about DT Abbey or The
55:53Umbrellas of sherberg but uh and then
55:56did look at the games and I didn't like
55:57the look of them um they were they were
56:00too violent I wouldn't play them but I
56:02don't I don't like Breaking Bad it was
56:04too violent and it it was very
56:05irritating to my sons I I couldn't watch
56:08The Sopranos I just don't like that but
56:10I do not think that because someone
56:12watches Breaking Bad they are going to
56:14become meth dealers and and you know
56:16shooting the people and and there's just
56:18no evidence that playing these games
56:20does that it's just really it's fun and
56:22and as I said they're very challenging
56:25these young these these people that play
56:27them the skills and the imagination the
56:30strategy it's it's many different levels
56:33and it's hard and impressive what they
56:35do and they love it well what happened
56:38was this celebrating women is that a
56:41group of cultural critics the sort of
56:42people who've been marching through our
56:44universities gender studies or cultural
56:46studies Majors set their sights on well
56:49they chose the wrong crowd they chose
56:51the gamers and Gamers know a thing or
56:54two about they like to win and they
56:56started an argument with them and said
56:59that your games are sexist and misog and
57:03misogynist and you have irr you know
57:05women are irresponsibly proportioned now
57:07it is mostly guys who play the game they
57:10lot of them not all of them but a lot of
57:11them like sexy women so there's sexy
57:14women in them they'll say well women are
57:16there's violence to women well there's
57:17vastly more violence to men and you
57:19usually get punished if there's violence
57:21to women and if there's violence to
57:22women at all it's usually is an gives a
57:25motive to the the protagonist to go on
57:29you know and and take revenge or
57:31something because they are these so it's
57:34it's an innocent Pursuit and they're
57:37having fun and now they're suddenly
57:39they're getting these you know gender
57:41studies Majors telling them your games
57:42are uh you know treating women as the
57:45other and and all this is happening
57:47where the world of games is exploding
57:49and there are games uh women centered
57:52games and there are female heroins
57:54they're still not happy with that the
57:56there's a he female heroin I like
57:57Bayonetta who's sort of awesome and and
58:00uh but she's sexy they don't like the
58:02fact that she's sexy they said oh it's
58:03still catering to the male gays and then
58:06I asked myself like what's wrong with
58:08the male gays if I mean gay is g z
58:12g you have be there for a moment no
58:15there's a whole thing that oh it's
58:16objectifying women's bodies well that's
58:18part that's a healthy part of male
58:20sexuality they do rather like women's
58:22bodies most men and even gay men like
58:25men's you know men's bodies there is a
58:26lot of gazing going on in gay culture
58:29it's part of sexuality so here we have
58:32this movement and why I say the
58:33contradictions that supposed to be
58:34celebrating people's sexual Freedom
58:37except that of heterosexual men suddenly
58:40that is being pathologized and treated
58:42as you know something toxic and
58:44dangerous that must be policed so they
58:46came to police The Gamers well the
58:49gamers fought
58:51back and they don't always play by the
58:53Marcus of Queensberry rules but what
58:56happened is there were then it got out
58:58of hand because the gamers were accused
59:00of making death threats well no one has
59:03ever been able to show that any person
59:05identified with gamergate as the group
59:07became known is hashtag no one has been
59:09able to show and what the what the press
59:12leaves out is that the people defending
59:14the gamers have been threatened about as
59:17much there's a lot of it's the internet
59:20okay there there are crazy people but at
59:23the core you have Gamers who love their
59:25Hobbies they were fed up with what they
59:27thought was corruption in the gaming
59:29press I don't completely understand that
59:31but I can imagine and they were fed up
59:33with these kind of cultural
59:35authoritarians coming in and bossing
59:37them around many of them I will say are
59:39politically probably lean left
59:42libertarian but what happened is when
59:44these these um critics came in and these
59:48these these uh skolds they kind of
59:52Awakened this sleeping giant because the
59:54G their gamers are everywhere they're
59:55all over the world world and they love
59:57their Hobby and they knew this was false
59:59they knew and so they rebelled and they
1:00:02uh you know started madly creating I
1:00:04mean they're very creative they can in a
1:00:06minute they can come up with with a a
1:00:09joke a video or they they they give
1:00:11lectures they they're constantly
1:00:13fighting and they organized around this
1:00:14hashtag gamergate and they they give
1:00:17they're prone to some conspiracy
1:00:19theories and it it's just fun they're
1:00:21fun they're they're amusing and smart uh
1:00:23and then they keep getting attacked
1:00:25savag by the New York Times or the
1:00:27Washington Post and uh they're they're
1:00:30said to be a a misogynist horde well in
1:00:33this misogynist horde you have a lot of
1:00:35women you have gay guys you have you
1:00:38have the it's it's a consumer Uprising
1:00:40against cultural
1:00:42authoritarians and I I love it because
1:00:45it's the first group that I saw fight
1:00:46back against all the things we've been
1:00:48talking about they're not afraid and and
1:00:50they've been through a lot of battles
1:00:52before because as I said if you're a
1:00:53gamer your mom probably didn't like it
1:00:54your teachers didn't authorities thought
1:00:56it was problematic so they're they don't
1:00:58like critics that come along uh with
1:01:01evidence-free theories about how bad
1:01:03they are and they are feisty can some of
1:01:06that Spirit of rebellion come to the
1:01:08campuses or come more broadly to the
1:01:09culture hoping because what I found is
1:01:11these militant ill-informed dogmatic
1:01:15feminists they've they have uh brought a
1:01:17lot of acrimony and bitterness into the
1:01:19world of a lot of Worlds where you have
1:01:21more men than women like Libertarians
1:01:23there are more men than uh atheist The
1:01:26Atheist Community has just been split
1:01:28because these bitter women came in and
1:01:30and made trouble and made all sorts of
1:01:32unfair attacks and in they did it to the
1:01:35scientists they did it in to sports well
1:01:38the gamers were the first group that I
1:01:40think really fought back but they know a
1:01:42thing or two about uh you know going
1:01:45after a monster and as I said they like
1:01:47to win so it was wasn't the right group
1:01:50to pick a fight with so it's still going
1:01:52and there as uh you know as
1:01:56they're they're determined uh and I
1:01:59think they are making a difference and I
1:02:01think they're sort of showing other
1:02:02subcultures and hobbies uh that you can
1:02:06you can be a you know a good person I I
1:02:08I find most of them very fair-minded
1:02:10they they and oh and the reason they
1:02:12like me is I said look I'm an equality
1:02:14feminist I'm but you don't have to be a
1:02:16a Hardline fainting cou feminist or
1:02:19whatever they are and they like that
1:02:21they like because they do think that
1:02:22they believe in equality and most of
1:02:24them are not m aist they didn't they
1:02:26don't see they're young they're young
1:02:28men many in many cases who've been
1:02:30brought up they're the most open-minded
1:02:32generation you don't see more misogyny
1:02:35uh with the the rise of video games you
1:02:37see less you see less violence with the
1:02:39so I tried to make videos that made that
1:02:42clear and they so now they call me based
1:02:45mom mom being Mom and based is a means I
1:02:49think it means sort of cool or b d b
1:02:53based I wasn't aware of that SL yeah
1:02:56you're with B mom here I'm impressed and
1:02:59now I'm I have a lot of followers on
1:03:00Twitter and I sometimes if someone
1:03:02criticizes me I'm afraid to forward it
1:03:04because they will go to Great LS to to
1:03:07defend bass mom so unless it's someone
1:03:09more powerful than me if they're if
1:03:11they're uh you know uh just someone
1:03:14isn't no you know unknown I won't
1:03:16mention it because the The Gamers you
1:03:18know will will start I mean they're
1:03:20they're polite but they'll be they
1:03:21should go after people in power but
1:03:23that's would be a healthy kind of
1:03:24Citizen Rebellion against it's a citizen
1:03:26Rebellion it's a consumer Uprising
1:03:28against cultural authoritarians and The
1:03:30Gamers have done it better than any
1:03:32group I've seen on that note of hoping
1:03:35the gamers Inspire the rest of America
1:03:37thank you Christina for spending this
1:03:39time here on conversations and thank you
1:03:41for joining us

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