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Chris Williamson's Top 3 Longevity Lessons From 1100 Episodes From Modern Wisdom — Transcript

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0:00There's no such thing as not drilling a
0:01habit. Even inaction is a habit. There's
0:04no impartial decision. Not making a
0:06decision is still a decision. Like I
0:08started off in the productivity world.
0:09>> I did a big essay on my YouTube channel
0:12talking about my thoughts on
0:13optimization culture.
0:15>> Which of what we're being [music] told
0:16is [ __ ] and which is actually very
0:18high yielding. And I think if we can
0:20help them discern that signal from noise
0:23and then say, "Look, you're fine doing
0:2410 20 minutes a day as long as you do it
0:26every day." Yes. So find something that
0:28works for you that you can [music] stick
0:29to with consistency.
0:30>> What do you like? What do you enjoy to
0:32do?
0:32>> Do more of it.
0:33>> So you have already achieved the goals
0:34that you said would make you happy. You
0:36said it would be when you got a new car
0:37and then your happiness faded. You said
0:38it would be when you got a job promotion
0:40and then your happiness faded. If not
0:41now, then when?
0:42>> You spent many years talking to people
0:45about how to optimize for your health
0:46and then you get this diagnosis. [music]
0:48Right. You can do everything right.
0:50>> Mhm.
0:50>> Right. And and still
0:52>> get smashed in the face by reality.
0:54Yeah. How did you manage [music] to
0:56continue working
0:57>> with difficulty? I basically kind of
0:59shut down my life outside of I had two
1:01jobs. Fix myself and run the show.
1:03>> You've obviously been exposed to a lot
1:05of these things. You've tried probably
1:06nearly everything. If you had to remove
1:08all of them except three, what would you
1:10keep?
1:24This is actually a little bit weird for
1:27me and I'll tell you why.
1:3190% of the guests that we have on are
1:34scientists who are on our council or
1:36like physicians or thought leaders
1:38within a very narrow vertical.
1:41>> Didn't you have Robert Downey Jr. on
1:42>> Chris? Let's cut that out. I was going
1:45to go on to say aside from a few
1:47members, right? And so, um, these are
1:51people that have been through the
1:53experience
1:54>> and are ambassadors, right?
1:56>> You're you're not Robert Downey Jr. or
1:58the scientist. I think you're probably
2:00one of very few people in the world, if
2:04not
2:07a single person in the world that's
2:09spoken to the most amount of experts
2:12that sit within that other category. So,
2:15you're almost the mirror.
2:17>> Do I feel like a rival to your level of
2:19exposure and expertise to the greatest
2:22clinicians on the plan?
2:23>> Yeah. Only difference between us is the
2:254 and a half million YouTube subscribers
2:27and
2:28>> more than a billion views. That's with
2:30other than that. Yeah.
2:31>> Yeah. Uhhuh.
2:32>> It's very competitive.
2:33>> You've been doing this for nine years
2:35now.
2:35>> Correct.
2:37Nine years ago when you set out to do
2:39this,
2:40was the ambition to build a top 10
2:44podcast and focus specifically on how to
2:47like help people to optimize their
2:49health or is that something that you
2:51like just grew into over 10020 episodes?
2:56>> Yeah. I mean, nine years ago, I was
2:58still running nightclubs in the
2:59northeast of the UK. I'm from a very
3:01working-class town. Uh, state primary,
3:04state secondary, state six form college.
3:06First person in my family to complete
3:08university. Did two degrees at
3:09Newcastle. Um, within the first week or
3:12so of being at uni, had spent all my
3:14money on freshers week getting drunk.
3:16>> Yeah. Like a good northern boy.
3:18>> Uh, so my right of passage was
3:20completed. I needed to get a job. I
3:21started flying for nightclubs, running
3:23nightclubs, running events. Got a
3:25franchise. Started working with Luke
3:27Betts who's co-founder of Newtonic. And
3:30um
3:30>> he's here somewhere.
3:31>> He's hiding in the background. And
3:33altogether that meant I I really got
3:36into business, but I started to fall out
3:38of love with the world of nightlife
3:39toward the end of my 20ies. A lot of
3:41guys do that. They find something that's
3:43kind of their initial obsession as an
3:45adult. Maybe they're obsessed with a
3:46sport. I was obsessed with cricket as a
3:48kid. I played a lot to a high level and
3:50then I had another obsession and that
3:51was business. And oh, this might be my
3:54thing for life. And some people they
3:56find that thing early on. But I have
3:58this idea called the manopause. And this
4:00is a period toward the end of a guy's
4:0220s where he sort of grows up against
4:04the shell of this structure that he's
4:06made for himself. Like the modes of
4:08reward and fulfillment and status and
4:11acclaim that he used to have, they're
4:13not quite functioning the same way.
4:15They're not giving him the same sort of
4:17return that he was used to. And that
4:20happened to me. And I started the pod. I
4:22was listening to a lot of Rogan and Sam
4:24Harris and Jordan Peterson and Alandon
4:26from the School of Life,
4:28>> you know, getting into Ben Greenfield,
4:29early stage biohacking, uh, Teimu Arena
4:32that wrote the biohackers handbook back
4:34in the day. I've still got a copy of
4:36that somewhere. I, oh, it'd be cool like
4:37if I if I started my own show,
4:40>> I could talk to these people and then
4:41maybe I'd get to ask them the questions
4:43I want
4:44>> to know because sometimes people ask
4:45what I want to know, but other times I
4:47have an idea about what I would have
4:48said on the podcast.
4:49>> You're shouting at the screen.
4:50>> No, no, no, no. Don't ask him about
4:52that.
4:52>> Yeah.
4:52>> Uh and yeah, I
4:55>> launched it. It took about six months to
4:56come up with the name. I had divine
4:58intervention for modern wisdom. And then
4:59start of 2018, began the pod. At that
5:02point, I was doing a lot of CrossFit. So
5:03I think my fourth fourth and fifth
5:06episode were with Dave Castro, uh
5:09director of the CrossFit Games, and Dan
5:10Bailey, like 10 times CrossFit Games
5:12competitor. That was really fun.
5:14>> And then I the show has basically been
5:18one thinly veiled autobiography. It's
5:20slowly tracking my interests over time.
5:23So, a lot of productivity in the first
5:25200 episodes. David Allen's getting
5:27things done is GTD method for
5:29productivity. Thiago Forte's second
5:32brain. Um, how to remember things like
5:35the Anki space repetition, Ebing House
5:37forgetting curves, and then I moved on
5:39to I'm going to do a bit more training.
5:40So, a lot of bodybuilding, like tons of
5:42bodybuilding and uh a lot of CrossFit in
5:44there. Uh so health and fitness has
5:46always been a part of my life but I've
5:48just indulged shamelessly indulged my
5:51own interests and that's kind of moved
5:53with me. So if you want to know what's
5:54happening in my personal life just look
5:56at the broad themes in the podcast over
5:58the last 50 episodes and like that's
6:00that's the thing that's what's going on
6:01with me. It must be unusual for you to
6:05see how this space has exploded, right?
6:08Like back in 20189 there's what a
6:11handful of people doing it with any
6:13degree of popularity I suspect. But now
6:16you know the terms biohacking and health
6:19optimization
6:20>> have taken on an altogether different
6:22meaning and there's so many different
6:24perspectives many of them conflicting
6:27many of them overreaching.
6:29>> Correct. you know how has your
6:31perspective on this as a field changed
6:33over that time knowing that the field
6:36itself has changed so much but also you
6:38have changed as a person.
6:40>> Yeah, the velocity of inbound
6:44information
6:45>> is tough even as a audience member who
6:49gets to choose when they want to tune in
6:51and not. So being on the front lines I'm
6:53the vanguard of speaking to people uh
6:57you do need to use a lot of discernment
6:58and it's I I understand why there is a
7:01degree of skepticism and scrutiny and
7:04and sometimes nihilism or cynicism about
7:07the sort of health advice space
7:08specifically coming out of the podcast
7:10world because it feels like for every
7:13person telling you to go high carb
7:15lowfat there's someone telling you to go
7:17meat only and there's someone else
7:18saying Mediterranean diets and blue
7:20zones are great but apparent blue zones
7:22are just because of the way that
7:23people's passports were registered and
7:24birth records and
7:26>> just I I give up, right? And you don't
7:29want to get people to the point where
7:30they say I give up. So for me a degree
7:32of discernment has been really
7:33important, but you're right. I mean the
7:34the word biohacking was the hot sexy
7:36thing. Like for me, Ben Greenfield, Team
7:38Urena, like these were the guys were at
7:40the forefront. And then we get to sort
7:41of 2021
7:43Huberman comes along. Uh Peter Aier
7:47Ronda Patrick you know people that are
7:49much more evidence-based in how they're
7:51going about things people that are
7:52proper MDs you practicing physicians in
7:54that sort of a way. Okay. And the clock
7:56begins to roll forward a little bit
7:57more. And then we have like a Brian
7:58Johnson you know somebody who's much
8:00more experimental with what he's doing
8:01very he's like basically a re
8:03resurrection of what used to be called
8:05the quantified self movement. I don't
8:06know whether you remember that from
8:07forever ago. quantified self people
8:09trying to track everything in their
8:10life. And now we have AI and AI is
8:12coming. So it's confusing and I get it.
8:14But the right experts, at least as far
8:18as I've found, have a degree of
8:20playfulness with stuff that's uh cutting
8:25edge and as yet this is interesting.
8:27It's showing interest at the moment
8:28where the the term that I use is bro
8:31science, which is a great way to get out
8:33of saying this might be [ __ ] but I
8:34think I'm going in the right direction.
8:35But the the way that academics do it, I
8:37learned this from academics. They said
8:39it's directionally correct.
8:40>> Sure. Yeah.
8:41>> That's how they refer to it as, which is
8:43basically the specifics, the specifics
8:45are uncertain, but the action seems to
8:47go in this way. So it's like it's
8:48directionally correct. It seems like
8:50fasting has some effect other than just
8:53calorie restriction. We're unsure what
8:55they are yet. They appear in animal
8:56models and we're not too sure what
8:57they're a correlation.
8:58>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, okay,
9:00the problem is that's not very sexy.
9:02>> So your sexiest commentators will be
9:04ardent. This is what we This is the
9:06carnivore diet is exactly this is why it
9:08happens. Meat and fruit, you can't have
9:10fructose or you can make sure you don't
9:12have tubers. Tubers are going to be too
9:13and the people that come in and are I
9:15think you should be highly suspicious of
9:18unless it's a wellressearched piece of
9:19of science because otherwise
9:22almost everybody is going to say I'm
9:25sorry it's not sexy but we don't know.
9:26>> How do you tow that line, you know,
9:29between
9:31something that is sexy and something
9:32that is true?
9:34Yeah, mercifully for me, because I'm not
9:36the expert, I get to be the idiot in
9:38every room. I've made a career out of
9:39being the most stupid person in every
9:41conversation. It's brilliant. And I
9:44basically get to ask the questions at a
9:46level of ignorance that I think
9:50sometimes is disarming. I'm not great.
9:52I'm not like Louis Thuru. Louis Thuru
9:53is, you know, sort of the master of this
9:54kind of thing. Yeah. But there's a a
9:56level of ignorance which can be
9:58disarming to people. And it actually,
10:00you know, just as a piece of advice
10:02generally for asking people questions,
10:04the simpler the question, there is no
10:06such thing as too stupid of a question.
10:08Asking for the definition of a word that
10:09somebody just used,
10:10>> asking for like why do you think that's
10:12the case or what what what's the best
10:15evidence for that? Simple questions,
10:17right? That is actually kind of what you
10:18want to know. um can often cause people
10:22who have a degree of expertise to falter
10:26a little bit because they haven't been
10:27asked a question that's that basic in so
10:29long. They haven't been in a room with
10:30someone that's as ignorant as I am
10:32>> for quite a while. And if you're
10:35prepared to own your ignorance for a
10:36long time, I felt like I I had to have
10:39this sort of dick measuring competition
10:42between me and the guest. And it wasn't
10:43a dick measuring competition because
10:44they're the expert, but I wanted to like
10:46show I've read the book. I promise I've
10:47read the book. like I really know like I
10:49respect your time and because I respect
10:51your time I've done all of this research
10:52andah as opposed to now like even if I
10:55do know all of the things I'm like yeah
10:56but like I don't understand
10:58>> I don't understand why information is a
11:00bad thing like I just don't get it or
11:02whatever
11:02>> you're being the voice of the audience
11:04>> to a degree but also like the voice of
11:06the most stupid pass part of myself or
11:08the most uninformed part of myself and
11:10you know everybody says just drill the
11:13basics over and over and yet many people
11:16in an audience will get fatigued or feel
11:18like why are we going back? We know
11:20cold, dark, quiet for sleep, right? Like
11:22what we we don't need to go back over
11:23this. I'm like, all right. Well, if we
11:24don't need to go back back over it, why
11:26aren't you doing it?
11:28>> Like, if this advice that is the
11:30mainstay of one particular area, which
11:32is supposed to be very important, no
11:34distractions, turn notifications off, no
11:35phone after 9:00 p.m., no phone before 8
11:37in the morning, blah blah blah. Oh,
11:39yeah. We've heard that before. All
11:40right. Are you doing it? No. Okay. Well,
11:42you need to hear it again then. like
11:43because I or from a different angle or
11:45with more justification. Um so yeah, I
11:48like to like
11:49>> bring that up because I just mentioned
11:50that in the lift that I don't do it.
11:52>> No, no, no, no. I would never do that to
11:53you, Chris.
11:54>> Feels like a dick.
11:54>> I would never do that to you.
11:55>> Can Can I ask you about you know, you
11:57you reference about being the most
12:00ignorant person in the room.
12:02>> You know, by very definition,
12:05>> that's not the case anymore because
12:07you've spent so much time with so many
12:09brilliant people. who can't not have
12:10absorbed so much of their wisdom.
12:14>> Do do you feel like
12:18and I'm speaking
12:20because I feel like this at times like
12:22the less you know sometimes is there is
12:24a bliss to that ignorance early on.
12:26>> Massively
12:27>> massively. Do you feel like that has
12:30>> made things more difficult the more you
12:32know?
12:33>> Uh there was certainly a a like valley
12:35of despair that I went through. Uh, I
12:38think relinquishing
12:40the, "Oh my god, there's so much that I
12:42don't know and there's so much that I do
12:44and that means it's complex." Letting go
12:46of that kind of self-inforced pressure
12:48is an art form. Um, you know, you
12:51should, it's kind of like I think about
12:53it like um a version of Pandora's box.
12:56So, imagine that you have a room and in
12:58that room there's a box and in the box
13:00are a ton of children's toys and plugs
13:02and just like brick brack stuff. And if
13:06you decide to open that box, all the
13:08lights in that room are going to get
13:09switched off and everything's going to
13:11go everywhere. And for the rest of your
13:12life, you're going to have to go around
13:14stepping on stuff that hurts, picking it
13:16up and slowly putting it back in the
13:17box. So, you need to kind of make the
13:19decision if I'm going to do this thing,
13:21if I'm going to learn to understand
13:22myself and the world around me, which is
13:24what the tagline for modern wisdom has
13:26been for a long time. Life is hard.
13:28>> This podcast,
13:29>> this podcast will help. Uh, and
13:31understand yourself and the world around
13:32you. If you want to understand yourself
13:33and the world around you, if you get
13:34halfway in and try to reverse back out,
13:38you're left with all of the questions
13:39that were generated by the beginning of
13:41your knowledge and none of the answers
13:42that would be done by attaining
13:43something that looks like content
13:45mastery or at least like full awareness
13:47of of whatever it is. And um that's not
13:50for me to say that I've managed to
13:51complete anything really, but I have got
13:53myself to a much better level of peace.
13:55And I think AI
13:59uh uncertain geopolitical climate,
14:01what's happening with the future, am I
14:02going to have a job? That
14:04>> uncertainty that people have in of
14:06what's coming down the pike is causing
14:08people to really lean away from
14:12overwhelm of information. So I think a
14:13lot of it is about simplicity. And now
14:16what I'm doing on the show is trying to
14:17have much more of a laugh. It's much
14:18more parasocial. I've got a lot of the
14:20Andrew Huban came on with his cousin
14:21who's a world famous comedian and one of
14:23my friends who's another world famous
14:24comedian and we just we talked it was
14:26like hearing lads in the pub just talk
14:29[ __ ] around a table for three hours and
14:31it was brilliant and that to me you will
14:34leave those episodes now which you
14:36wouldn't have done in 2018 people just
14:38what does caffeine do how does the
14:40adenosine system work tell me what like
14:42how why does it impact my sleep
14:44>> whereas now people have learned that and
14:46I think a lot more it's sort of uh
14:49sneaking learning in underneath the
14:52guise of just enjoying something. All
14:54the best non-fiction books at the moment
14:55are stories. Morgan Hel's Psychology of
14:57Money is 23 stories back toback. It's a
15:00book about money, but it's actually just
15:01a book. It's a list of real stories that
15:03give you a lesson about money and it
15:05sneaks them in.
15:07>> When you look back over I mean, 1100
15:09episodes. Is that right?
15:11>> Correct.
15:12>> That's insane.
15:13>> When you look back over
15:15>> Yeah.
15:16all of those episodes there must be
15:18examples because I already feel this way
15:21and you know we've done 30 episodes 25
15:24published episodes
15:25>> and
15:28you know I will look back it's a very
15:30steep learning curve I would say
15:31>> the noob gains are real
15:33>> yeah um but the thing I've also noticed
15:36is know I don't always agree with the
15:38things that I said even three months ago
15:41>> when you look back that far back
15:43>> there must be episodes where a you've
15:46thought why did I say that and I don't
15:48believe that now and also had guests
15:51that did the same.
15:53>> Yeah. Uh there's a lot of a lot
15:56>> that's [snorts] not a critique by the
15:57way.
15:58>> No no I mean it's it's having that
16:00humility of well something that I was
16:03pretty ardent about or was prepared to
16:05say on a podcast
16:075 years ago I'm not now reminds you that
16:10the position that you hold now is
16:11probably going to be pretty malleable
16:13moving forward as well. So strong
16:15opinions but quite loosely held. Yeah.
16:16Is a good a good way to think about it.
16:18Yeah. It's it's funny. I mean you know I
16:21brought up Naval the first question that
16:23this this guy for the people that don't
16:25know he's the guy that founded Angel
16:26List which is the platform that a lot of
16:28investing and angel investing is done on
16:30sort of half philosopher half tech bro
16:34half
16:34>> Revamp.
16:35>> Yes. Yeah. Like half investing wizard.
16:37Um, and this first thing that I brought
16:40up with him, I said I read him one of
16:43his quotes from not that long ago and
16:46his the first words out of his mouth on
16:48a podcast I'd planned for forever and is
16:50my my favorite episode that I've done,
16:52one of them at least uh was I don't I
16:55basically don't fully believe with that
16:56thing that was said at a very specific
16:58point in time for a very specific reason
17:00and I'm not sure that I agree. And you
17:02know, he's a person that I admire like
17:04hugely from an intellectual humility
17:06standpoint. He said, "Often I disagree
17:09with myself and uh yeah, for especially
17:13when you start something new, you're
17:15going to have some prior coming in that
17:17are very quickly going to be dismissed.
17:20Like you're going to have an idea about
17:21how a conversation's supposed to go or
17:23about how much you're supposed to talk
17:24or not talk or about the way that you're
17:26supposed to spend time with the guest
17:28beforehand or whatever." And then very
17:30quickly, even if you believe it, and
17:31then you're going to learn something and
17:32you'll be like, "Oh, that's my new hill
17:36that I'm going to plant my flag of self
17:38of podcasting self around or of training
17:41self around or of dietary self around
17:43>> because that's the thing that got you a
17:45little bit of the way there."
17:46>> Yeah.
17:47>> And then there's this next bit and it
17:49all it's a a permanent journey of
17:53unlearning. That's what it is.
17:54>> Well, I think specifically for this
17:56field as well, there's science evolves,
17:58right? the pendulum swings. The way we
17:59were doing things even six months ago is
18:02not the way that we're doing them
18:03necessarily today. And I suspect that
18:05moves even quicker.
18:07>> How would you from your perspective,
18:10what have been the biggest
18:13broad wind cultural changes inside of
18:18the longevity field, a priority
18:20prioritization of something, a dep
18:22prioritization of something else that
18:24previously would have been the other way
18:25around? Have there been some big sort of
18:27trend swings that you've noticed?
18:30>> I mean, sleep for certain. You know, we
18:32go back 10 years. We weren't we weren't
18:35taking sleep seriously. Matthew
18:36actually, who we spoke about earlier, I
18:39think his book really set that off in
18:43motion. He's saved I I said this all the
18:46time. His episode on Rogan 11:09 I think
18:49it was
18:50>> uh
18:52changed my because I was a club promoter
18:55staying up until 2 3 4 in the morning
18:57multiple nights but driving back from
18:59Manchester to Newcastle sometimes
19:00getting in at 5:30 6:00 in the morning
19:02after having run. Yeah. Just wrecked.
19:04Absolutely ruined.
19:05>> And um he told me that the World Health
19:07Organization classes any type of shift
19:10work as a health risk. anytime like
19:12being a nurse, being a firefighter, uh
19:16working a night shift in a a petrol
19:18station, any of that stuff. And I was
19:19like, "Oh, I'm this is unsustainable
19:22long term. I can't I can't do this to
19:24myself long term."
19:26His book, I think, has probably saved
19:29a few million years of human lifespan.
19:32When you think about that, how many
19:33people listened to him on shows and and
19:36read that book and decided to make a
19:38change to their suboptimal sleep
19:40patterns?
19:41and that he will have added on to like
19:44multiple tens of thousands if not
19:46hundreds of thousands of people's lives
19:49many years. Crazy. It's crazy.
19:51>> Do you sleep well?
19:52>> Uh it's up and down. Uh I'm currently
19:55going through a uh ENT assessment. So
19:59both of my parents are loud snorers and
20:02I haven't inherited that. But uh double
20:05deviated septum, some like turbineate
20:08swelling stuff. So, I might have to look
20:10at a more
20:12uh invasive solution for that in order
20:16to fix
20:17>> straighten out.
20:18>> Yeah. To fix that.
20:18>> Looks fine from here.
20:19>> Thanks. It looks lovely on the outside.
20:21It's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a fast
20:22car that's horrible to drive.
20:24>> Have you, you know, given how many of
20:26these conversations you've had, are
20:29there things that are through lines that
20:31seem to be, you know, um, agreed upon by
20:35everyone? I can think of a couple.
20:37>> For health.
20:38>> Yeah. for health. Are there like a
20:40number of things that you think every
20:42longevity scientist specialist agree on?
20:45>> Sleep is probably the universal that it
20:48it kind of is the fundamental. I do
20:51wonder sometimes whether the more
20:53adventurous
20:56longevity
20:57biohacking people uh use sleep as their
21:02well see I do follow the science in that
21:05one area and then I totally discard it
21:07when it comes to supplementation or
21:09peptides or enhancement or whatever the
21:10[ __ ]
21:11>> Um sleep's always been there. uh ones
21:15that have changed for me
21:18looking at the difference between
21:21uh low and slow zone 2 to V2 max top end
21:25work like Norwegian 4x4 style training
21:28which is four minutes on three minutes
21:29off four rounds at a really high heart
21:31rate. It's horrible.
21:32>> What are you doing there?
21:33>> That's the assault bike. That's the
21:35assault bike. That's that's how I do it.
21:37Um, and I think the main study for that
21:42said
21:44one session a week for two years or two
21:46sessions a week for one year reversed 10
21:49years of heart aging in like the seinal
21:51study that that did and it was a pretty
21:53good sized group of untrained or
21:55relatively untrained individuals. Really
21:58great.
21:58>> But zone 2 was the hot new girl in
22:01school. Go low and slow, go slow to go
22:03fast, you know, all of these sexy
22:04taglines. So that was that's been a big
22:06swing. Um
22:08>> I would say another big change uh
22:10muscular training like bodybuilding
22:12stuff or uh muscle-based medicine which
22:15uh Dr. Gabriel Lion is promoting at the
22:17moment. Um
22:19certainly when I started far fewer
22:22people were talking about muscle for
22:24longevity.
22:25>> It was this thing that you did for
22:28aesthetics. It was the thing that you
22:29did for mental health. It was a training
22:31preference that you had. Um, something I
22:33haven't seen which I'm kind of surprised
22:35by and maybe it's just because people
22:37don't have as easy of an outlet is more
22:40of the uh stuff that I just did with you
22:43guys, the sort of hand eye coordination,
22:45cognitive function stuff. Um, that
22:48hasn't really hit the mainstream. I
22:49wonder whether it just feels a bit
22:50specialized. Why am I a Formula 1
22:52driver? Do I really need to do that?
22:54Ascendancy of Coal Plunge and then the
22:57falloff of Coal Plunge must be studied.
22:59Uh, it's kind of kind of crazy. Yeah, it
23:01came on. Everyone loved it. I'm so
23:03awake. This is going to do everything.
23:06And now it's like if you like it, it's
23:09good. And it will give you a state
23:11change, but it's not going to give you a
23:13trait change. It it seems like the
23:15evidence is like pretty mixed on that.
23:16There's some good stuff about the last
23:1830 seconds of your shower being cold and
23:20it reduces the likelihood of you getting
23:22cold, like the flu each year, which is
23:24pretty fun. Uh the sauna, that's ramped
23:26up a ton. the people of Finland kind of,
23:29you know, passed that on to us, I
23:30suppose. And then, but yeah, lots of
23:33stuff's changed. Sleep's been a
23:34throughine. Training's wobbled a lot.
23:36Diet has gone
23:40protein wasn't that much of a
23:41consideration. protein is everything to
23:44now we're probably overcooking it even
23:47by it's more than the recommended daily
23:50allowance from the whatever FDA the the
23:53US government but it's not as much as
23:56people think in order for optimal health
23:57like one gram per pound is for most
24:00people even people that are trained
24:02individuals too much like one gram per
24:05kilo is probably closer to where you can
24:06be and well maybe we're looking at
24:08micronutrients more but like listen to
24:10this like litany you know this this this
24:13war zone strewn of bodies that at one
24:16time were the answer to your health and
24:17fitness problems. And uh yeah, I'm just
24:20this guy like dragging this cart behind
24:23me with a ton of corpses of of dead
24:26modalities. Let me ask you then about
24:28the things that have survived cool
24:30>> those conversations you know
24:33maybe in fact walk us through
24:37what does a typical day look like for
24:39you when it comes to health
24:40interventions.
24:41>> Cool. So up around about 7 I use a I
24:46wake up this is not health intervention
24:48at all. I wake up to NPR. The reason I
24:50wake up to NPR is I found that my mind
24:52was unusually permeable first thing in
24:55the morning if I listen to music. If I
24:57listen to a song, I can't get it out of
24:59my head for ages. And I think that this
25:01has got something to do with the flow
25:03state, theta wave stuff, delta theta
25:07stuff that um if you actually want to
25:09get into
25:11a flow state relatively quickly for a
25:12writing task can just go to sleep and as
25:15soon as you get up jump into it and
25:16you're not far away within 30 seconds,
25:1830 to 90 seconds. This is Steven Cotler
25:20from the flow research collectives thing
25:21which is pretty fun. So anyway, get up.
25:23Uh I use these glasses called AO
25:25glasses.
25:26>> Yeah, I've got some. Yeah.
25:27>> Awesome. So, a lot of people will have
25:29seen seasonal effective disorder lamps
25:32and they are great, but you need to be
25:34looking at the lamp.
25:35>> Um, this guy that runs the company just
25:38put the same technology from the Philips
25:40light and put it on a pair of glasses
25:43over the top. You kind of look a bit
25:44like a cyborg. So, I throw those on cuz
25:46sometimes I'm up before the sun in in in
25:48Austin, Texas. Uh, element in water,
25:52short walk.
25:53>> Element as in the electrolytes.
25:54>> Correct. Element. Um
25:57the orange flavor is fantastic. Uh short
25:59walk, come back and then at the moment
26:01I'm going to train. I used to have a
26:02very elaborate morning routine for a
26:04long time and it was highly opulent and
26:07unnecessary.
26:08>> They've gone out of fashion too.
26:09>> The morning routine thing it has. And I
26:11think that that's because people's time
26:12is being squeezed. If you look at where
26:14lots of time people's time is being
26:15squeezed, it's being squeezed by the
26:17fact that they're wasting so much of it.
26:19>> Like the reason you don't have time is
26:21because you're being frivolous with much
26:22of it. like lots of people, kids, job,
26:24two jobs, all the rest of like
26:27obligations.
26:28>> But for a lot of the people that were in
26:30that world, it's just, dude, you're
26:32scrolling too much.
26:33>> Oh, you're just wasting your time. So
26:34anyway,
26:36>> walk train. Um, there's a bunch of James
26:38and Austin that are fantastic.
26:41What else will I do that's interesting
26:42when I get back? Flossing. Something
26:44that I just got told over and over and
26:46over again. I still don't fully
26:48understand the science, but uh, a water
26:50pick has been good. Do you see Dyson
26:53just released their new toothbrush?
26:54>> The camera on, I'm told.
26:56>> Have you seen this? Dyson released James
26:58Dyson released a toothbrush that flosses
27:01at the same time.
27:02>> Any danger, James, of sending us a
27:04couple of samples?
27:05>> It's sold out. They're sold out. You
27:06can't even get the crap colors.
27:08>> There's one of them that's a really nice
27:10like rose like pink color. It's a little
27:12girly, but it's fine. I'm comfortable
27:13with my sexuality. Fine. So,
27:14>> sounds right.
27:15>> I I I trying to buy one of these things,
27:18so that's fun. So, I'll be looking
27:19forward to that. Uh interesting other
27:21interventions that I use uh Newtonic
27:24which is the uh drink that I've
27:26co-ounded with Luke Betts James Smith
27:28and a couple of other guys um that is my
27:31daily driver for cognitive health. So,
27:34it's a science-based blend of
27:38choline, rodeiola, panics, jinseng,
27:40altheenine, some natural caffeine, B
27:43vitamins that are all methylated, like
27:45natural folate, blah blah blah. Like, we
27:47really really went through. It's the
27:48most sciencebacked way to improve your
27:50cognitive health in the moment and over
27:52time it compounds as well. So, hooray
27:54for that. That's new tonic. Um, what
27:56else will I do that's fun? Really loving
27:59red light beds at the moment. Really
28:01enjoying those. Uh, it's hard to find
28:03one that's good. Unfortunately, most of
28:05the things that are on Amazon are
28:07probably just red LEDs pointed at you.
28:10But if you can go to a place that has a
28:14unit, uh, you need to be between like
28:17four and 6 in from it. So, you can't
28:19actually be that far. Doesn't work. You
28:21can't just put it on the far side. It
28:22might do some stuff for ocular health.
28:23You can't just put it on the far side of
28:24the room and hope for the best.
28:26>> Red light hbot. I very very fortunately
28:29a hyperbaric uh facility in Austin
28:32closed down and in between that and
28:34finding their new place the owner just
28:36gave me his oxygen unit and the a hard
28:40shell tank. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy
28:42for me is one of the best interventions.
28:45I understand why it's not very popular
28:47because it takes two hours. It's a bit
28:49expensive and it's highly inconvenient,
28:52>> but it is so good. Breathing O2 for 20
28:55minutes on, five minutes off inside of
28:58this tank at high pressure seems to
29:00really improve cellular energy. And for
29:03me, I I feel great after doing that.
29:06There'll usually be a sauna in there, no
29:07cold, not that bothered. Um, I'll try
29:09and hit my 10,000 steps. I'll try and
29:11get as much sunlight as possible.
29:13Grounding, that's something else that I
29:15know I probably should do more of. I
29:16kind of feel good when I run on grass or
29:18sand, but Austin is, especially in the
29:20summer, is not the most outdoor friendly
29:24place. Uh, other stuff that's in there.
29:28Before I record a podcast, I'll tend to
29:29do a little bit of uh HIV resonance
29:32breathing. Like all of this is, this is
29:34typically not all in one day. This is
29:35like across a week. Um, little bit of
29:38resonance breathing is quite nice. Makes
29:40can sort of make you feel a lot more
29:42present. So, there's a a lamp called an
29:44M.alth health lamp and it's a
29:47>> how would you spell it?
29:48>> Ohm.alth
29:50is the website. It's beautiful looking
29:52lamp about that big and there's a stone
29:54on the top of it and it's got a 100
29:56hertz FDA uh certified heart rate sensor
30:00and as you hold the stone in your hand
30:02it's reading your heart rate and your
30:04HRV and then you breathe in time with
30:06the stone vibrating and the light going
30:08up and down
30:09>> and it maximizes the arrhythmia. So it
30:13gives you the biggest and this is a
30:14rhythm is the the the gap between the uh
30:18height of your heart rate BPM and the
30:20depth of it because across the entirety
30:23of a minute your 60 beats are not
30:25perfectly dissected by one second each.
30:28They speed up as you breathe in then
30:30they slow down as you breathe out. And
30:31by manipulating using an algorithm and
30:33the Wi-Fi, uh by manipulating the pace
30:36that you breathe at, you can make these
30:38huge swings in your heart rate. So you
30:42can go from like 61 to 72, 63, 70, 61,
30:4971, and you do that for uh 10 minutes,
30:5215 minutes, and it is one. It is so
30:54good. It kind it can kind of space you
30:56out for a little bit, but it's really
30:57lovely. And again, breath work something
30:59that's is kind of fun to do. Um, on a
31:02nighttime,
31:04the usual try and get off screens when I
31:08can. Usually horrendous at it like you.
31:10Um, caffeine. I'm a really slow
31:13metabolizer of caffeine. So, even if I'm
31:14having a new tonic, uh, with 400
31:17milligrams of althenine in, I can't do
31:19that usually after about 3 p.m. I'm
31:22asking for trouble. If I do it after 3
31:24p.m., I'm really asking for trouble. and
31:27reading in bed. That's like the for me a
31:30good fiction series like just helps to
31:34put my brain into some other mode. It's
31:36really hard to go back into thinking
31:38about that message on Slack that pissed
31:41you off if you're in the middle of a
31:43space battle or something.
31:44>> Yeah.
31:45>> Right. So, uh, interestingly enough,
31:48>> always fiction.
31:49>> Uh, on a nighttime. Yeah. If I try and
31:52read like some personal development
31:54stuff, uh, real world fiction or history
31:56might be fine, but if I try and read
31:58something that's too executive
32:00functioning adjacent, I go to bed like
32:04thinking about all of the ways I've now
32:05been inspired to use that in my life.
32:07Yeah.
32:07>> And it's too much. I don't need more of
32:09that on a night. So, yeah. Uh, reading
32:11fiction on a night time is great.
32:12>> Do you do you use a like a real book or
32:15a Kindle?
32:16>> I use a Kindle. Um,
32:18here's another one. uh blue light at
32:21night. Yes, not great, but it seems like
32:24most of the effect that people were
32:26worried about from uh using phones to
32:30impact people's sleep quality is more
32:32from the content that people are using
32:34on their phone than it is the amount of
32:36blue light coming from the phone. So,
32:38especially if you get one of the
32:39slightly nicer Kindles or probably any
32:41of the modern ones, mine are kind of
32:42old. Um you can make them warmer. So,
32:45you can make the light pretty warm and
32:46you can make it pretty dim. got control
32:47over the brightness and that for me the
32:49problem being like if you want to read a
32:51real book you need to have a light on
32:52and the light needs to be bright enough
32:54to be able to illuminate the pages of
32:55the book.
32:56>> Yeah.
32:56>> And I'm like oh well if I'm trying to
32:57make my bedroom a bit dark. Yeah. I'm
32:59like this feels a little bit like going
33:01against myself. So yeah uh Kendall
33:03earplugs. Big fan of ear plugs. Big fan
33:05of uh Manta eye masks. They're great.
33:08They're the best best eye masks on the
33:10planet as far as I'm concerned. Uh
33:13that's I mean I've done so much dude.
33:15I've done intrahemeral lines, uh,
33:17hemohyper oxygenation therapies in
33:20Vienna. I've gone and had an
33:21intrajugular line put in and lived in a
33:24hospital in Tijuana for 4 days and gone
33:26through like a a a SAF 100 filter. Lots
33:30of things. But when it comes down to it,
33:32it's like get up early, get some
33:34sunlight, train, see some friends, try
33:36to hydrate a good bit, don't eat that
33:38much [ __ ] Oh, uh, walk 10-minute walk
33:41after food where possible. like just one
33:45of my favorite health hacks of all time,
33:47by the way.
33:49>> It's
33:50the different when you start. It's kind
33:52of a little bit like uh people everyone
33:54that's got a Japanese toilet won't
33:56[ __ ] shut up about it.
33:57>> Everyone.
33:58>> I'm like, "All right, okay. I know that
34:00you've got them next door." [laughter]
34:02>> And uh everyone that gets everyone that
34:04gets a Japanese toilet just will not
34:05shut up about it. And it's kind of the
34:07same if you start doing a walk after
34:09each meal. First off, if you have three
34:11meals a day, 30 minutes is probably
34:135,000 steps. So that's you've got 50% of
34:16your way to getting the walk-in. Uh the
34:19way that your the contrlateral movement
34:21of your arms and your legs work means
34:23that the muscles that cross your uh
34:25digestion actually help to get some of
34:28that like food moving a little bit or
34:31the it gets your digestion moving a
34:32little bit. Uh regulates blood sugar. It
34:35it's great. And also, if you've just
34:36been for dinner with somebody, it's a
34:38nice way to wind it down and to walk
34:40away. So, yeah, I uh
34:42>> that's that's another one of my my
34:44again, Austin, hot. Sometimes I'm busy,
34:46I want to get back on my laptop or I
34:48can't bear to leave arguing with
34:50somebody on the internet or whatever.
34:52Um, but yeah, those are those are some
34:54>> Hey Chris, I think people listening
34:58will feel like that's a lot, right? Like
34:59you've obviously been exposed to a lot
35:01of these things. You've tried probably
35:02nearly everything.
35:03>> Yeah. Um,
35:05if you had to remove all of them except
35:08three, what would you [clears throat]
35:09keep?
35:10>> Morning light, which ideally you don't
35:12even need the glasses for. If you live
35:14somewhere that's got sunlight that it's
35:17so I wish it wasn't so much of a meme
35:19around Huberman
35:21>> because
35:22>> it is so important and it is so good. is
35:25such a hack. And I for me, if I do get
35:28that, the likelihood of my day going
35:29well is so much higher. And if I don't,
35:31the likelihood of it going badly is so
35:33much higher. Uh that would be one.
35:38Some form of training. And I would say
35:40the 10-minute walk after meals, at least
35:42at the moment, right? Like all of this
35:44stuff, this big well, this cathedral of
35:47[ __ ] that I've architected for
35:49myself of like health things, right?
35:51That's not I'm not doing that every day.
35:53probably not even doing that every
35:54month, but I will go through periods
35:56where I'll say, "Okay, I'm going to try
35:57and do a lot of HBOT sessions. I'm going
35:59to build those up and then I'll have a
36:00bit of a break.
36:01>> I'm going to do a some time where I
36:03really focus on like my wake time and
36:05then uh maybe I'm a bit busy or maybe
36:07I'm like going out with my friends. I'm
36:09going to shows or something. So, my
36:10sleep patterns a little bit off." Uh but
36:13yeah, for me, if I was just to do three
36:14things,
36:17I think there's a gap in the market for
36:19a company that makes uh curtains that
36:22retract in time with an alarm. I think
36:24if you made an alarm that opened the
36:26curtains to your house, I mean, it's
36:28usually easy for you to do it, too.
36:30>> That must exist already.
36:31>> It has to, but just I haven't seen it
36:33popularized. And I just think if you're
36:36already being smashed in the face by
36:38sunlight and you can get sunrise alarm
36:39clocks, they're they're not bad, I know.
36:41But still, you're it's artificial light
36:42and you're indoors or whatever.
36:43>> Yeah. Yeah.
36:44>> Um Yeah.
36:45>> Train in whatever form it is that you
36:48like. Uh
36:49>> sun in the morning and 10-minute walk
36:51after meals. Those for me three biggest
36:53movers. Um yeah. What what's the one
36:58bit of guidance, advice
37:02that you've heard of from one or more of
37:04your guests that you bought into
37:05straight away, but you really struggle
37:07still to adhere to? Cuz you know, I
37:09referenced to you earlier,
37:11you can tell me to not take my phone to
37:13bed a thousand times in a row and I
37:16still do it.
37:17>> I think that would be up there for me.
37:19Um, not the taking it to bed, the using
37:21it in the morning.
37:22>> Uh, so
37:23>> Oh, you mean like reaching for it
37:24straight away
37:25>> when Yeah. It's I sleeping with my phone
37:26outside my bedroom is that's the hack
37:29for that. Like just put the charging
37:30cable outside of your bedroom.
37:32>> Uh you don't want to wake up with no
37:33charge. So eventually either your
37:37fatigue or the phone's battery is going
37:40to beat you and you're going to need to
37:41go and plug it in and then go back into
37:43bed and fall asleep hopefully.
37:44>> I did it for three days last week and I
37:47was pretty proud of myself and then I
37:48crumbled.
37:49>> Yeah. You basically feel like a saint if
37:51you've done that. Yeah. Congratulations.
37:53>> Out of bed in the morning.
37:53>> You should be kned. Yeah. Uh, not using
37:56phone early in the morning is is a a
37:59tough one for me. The morning sunlight
38:00as well, dude. Like mornings have been
38:02challenging. So, I've been all over the
38:03place and time zones and stuff. So,
38:05that's been rough
38:06>> to be probably the number one for me is
38:09uh junk food, processed food stuff. Uh,
38:12I've got a big appetite. I have a sweet
38:15tooth. I like eating tasty things. I've
38:18probably got a
38:21heathen's pallet. Like it's just such a
38:24such a basic [ __ ] when it comes to like
38:26the food that I like. Like there's so
38:28many good options. There's always a good
38:30dinner happening in Austin, Texas.
38:32There's always an amazing restaurant
38:33that's got a lemon mering something
38:35dessert at the end or like salt glazed
38:39bread at the start. [ __ ] Like I So
38:43>> that's your kryptonite
38:44>> to a degree. Yeah. and um you know
38:47trying to dial
38:49continually dial diet in while not
38:52feeling like you're whipping yourself.
38:54>> Yeah.
38:55>> You oh here's another area that I need
38:57to unload some willpower into because
39:00I've had to keep myself off the internet
39:02all day as I've been trying to do my
39:04work of whatever kind. I've not let
39:06myself watch TV at night because I'm
39:08terrified that the blue light's going to
39:09ruin my sleep and I'm not using it when
39:10I get up in the morning. I've got to
39:12lift these things in the gym that are
39:13heavy and I don't want to lift and all
39:14this stuff. And now you tell me when I
39:15go out to dinner that I've got to say no
39:17to this. It's this permanent onslaught
39:20from the world of temptations. And I
39:22think this is why people are to bring it
39:24full circle pushing back against this
39:26sense of homework.
39:27>> Like God, I'm so laden down with
39:29obligations from real life. And now
39:31you're telling me I've got all of this
39:32other stuff to do and if I don't do it,
39:33I'm not a good person and I want to be a
39:35good person. I don't want to do it for
39:36myself. I'm kind ofing exhausted and I
39:38really don't want to do this thing
39:39anymore. That's
39:41>> how do you feel about this push back
39:42against overoptimization that we're
39:45seeing right now?
39:47>> I
39:49wholeheartedly agree with it to be
39:51honest. I think um the overwhelm of
39:56optimization
39:57part of which I was absolutely am part
39:59of that community like I started off in
40:02the productivity world.
40:03>> Yeah.
40:04>> Um I think it's I think it's needed to
40:06sort of balance things out. uh it is
40:09going to swing too far and it's already
40:11you will see it swing too far. Like guys
40:13are finishing triathlons and like
40:14ripping sigs. I'm like look one
40:18cigarette is not going to kill you but
40:19reliably one cigarette doesn't just
40:21stick at one cigarette. It does turn
40:23into a habit to some degree. And maybe
40:25you've got the if you've done a
40:26triathlon maybe you got the willpower to
40:27be able to be like one and done. I'm I'm
40:28sweet. I'll just do it after triathlons.
40:30Whatever like a cigarette after sex or
40:32something. Um
40:34I I think it's it's quite timely but I
40:37think it's part of a broader trend which
40:39is look health fitness optimization
40:42culture productivity it was this wild
40:44west where we could do all of this
40:45exciting stuff for a long time and now
40:47we've realized
40:49it's a bit overwhelming and much of it
40:52might have been speurious in terms of
40:53how effective it was and I just don't
40:55have that much time bro like give me a
40:57break.
40:58>> Yeah. Uh, I did a big essay on my
41:00YouTube channel talking about my
41:02thoughts on optimization culture. And I
41:04broke down my previously very opulent
41:06morning routine with breath work and
41:08reading and and and journaling and
41:10gratitude and meditation and yin yoga
41:12and prepping my food and salt and all
41:15this stuff. And um I understand that
41:18from the outside that looks and sounds
41:20kind of ridiculous, but I do think that
41:23there is value to condensing a period of
41:26hyper optimization to kind of just pay
41:28your dues.
41:30>> Like you can make a ton of progress in
41:31the gym if you don't do anything else
41:34for 6 months. But if you take 50% of
41:37that intensity in the gym and do it for
41:39a year, you don't make the same amount
41:40of progress. There is something about
41:42like really funneling all of your
41:44attention onto one thing and locking in
41:47for a good period of time.
41:49>> I I watched you, it may well have been
41:51on Modern Wisdom, talking about paying
41:53your debt,
41:54>> correct?
41:55>> Or paying off a debt.
41:56>> And I thought that was that really
41:58resonated. I think everyone falls on
42:00this spectrum somewhere where, you know,
42:02some people love tracking every single
42:06data point about their biology and then
42:09some hate it. I don't love wearing a
42:10wearable for example because it
42:12>> I get this like um baseline feeling of
42:16anxiety when I see my data is not as
42:18good as it should be or or or it doesn't
42:20represent how I feel
42:22>> right and then I by definition feel
42:24worse.
42:25>> But I do think that there is real value
42:27in you know the the people that are not
42:31doing anywhere close to the things that
42:33we already know to work. We have this
42:35great corpus of evidence to prove it
42:37out.
42:38If you're in that camp and you're not
42:41doing anywhere near enough, you don't
42:43really have any business talking about
42:45or critiquing over over
42:47>> your overtimization. My brother, you've
42:49had four hours sleep for the last week.
42:51>> Yeah.
42:51>> Um, so yeah, there's there's definitely
42:53two groups of people. One
42:55>> is the
42:58people turning themselves inside out,
43:00trying to optimize, and then exhausted
43:02and overwhelmed that they feel like they
43:04have to do more. And they're the ones in
43:05the anti-optimization group. And then
43:07there's the other group of people who
43:08get all of the prestige of now the wind
43:12swinging back in their direction of yeah
43:14I told you the optimization stuff was
43:15pointless. It's like dude
43:18your blood pressure is in the 160s.
43:21>> Like there is work to be done. Um and
43:26both sides aren't talking to themselves.
43:29They're using the example of the other
43:30as as sort of justification. But I I
43:33have this idea called advice
43:34hyperresponders. Like uh advice doesn't
43:37distribute like medicine. It distributes
43:39like alcohol. The people that are most
43:41at risk of overdose oning on it already
43:44take too much and then take more.
43:46>> So uh if you're the sort of person that
43:48is already nervous going up to women,
43:50then the advice don't be pushy with
43:52women will really land with you. And in
43:54I knew I knew I was too much. Yeah.
43:57Meanwhile, the dude that was blowing
43:58through boundaries and me too was all
44:00about just coasts past the advice
44:02unheard unseen. Um, the person that
44:05hears the advice,
44:07[ __ ] your feelings, just work harder,
44:10>> is already the one, the person that
44:12takes that to heart is already the one
44:14that is turning themselves inside out,
44:15desperately trying to squeeze every drop
44:17out of every day. Whereas the dude
44:19that's lying on his couch and actually
44:21needs to hear David Gogggin screaming in
44:22his face to get up and go harder, he
44:25doesn't even notice it. So because of
44:27this, the people that are already in the
44:28industry get overwhelmed with it and
44:31feel like they're getting peppered with
44:32more while there is an audience of
44:34people who still need it. And that might
44:35be like the median American might need
44:38to hear that, right? The median
44:40American's overweight. H
44:42>> how do we reconcile for that? You know,
44:44how do you
44:45>> I think that get through to them.
44:46>> Well, it it
44:47>> because I don't think that we need to be
44:49told I don't think even those people
44:51need to be told how important exercise
44:53is or sleep is.
44:56but they're still not doing it.
44:57>> Yeah, interventions aren't my aren't my
45:00strong suit. Certainly, one thing that I
45:02would say is that you need different
45:02voices from different angles because
45:06the podcasting industry, the world of
45:09health and fitness, everybody's kind of
45:10got their audience now to most of the
45:13territories have been captured, I think.
45:16And that means that everyone has kind of
45:18heard. I think that you need to do it
45:20from a new angle is the point. Like you
45:22can't try to emulate what's already
45:23been. Yeah. Okay. what's going to be
45:25new, what's going to be different, how
45:26am I going to how am I going to adapt
45:28this thing? Uh, and
45:30passing this sort democratizing this
45:33kind of information so that it's out on
45:3560 minutes.
45:36>> Mhm.
45:36>> So, it's out on Dr. Phil, you know that
45:39is where you will make the big impact
45:41because the blue ocean for if you're
45:43thinking okay how do we move the country
45:45or the world's health the most to okay
45:47where are the people who aren't
45:49listening not only that are not tuning
45:51into this type of podcast and there's a
45:53new angle on it that brings them in but
45:54aren't listening to that don't even know
45:56what the Spotify podcast app is
45:59>> sure
45:59>> that aren't using Apple podcasts that
46:00aren't subscribed to people on YouTube
46:02and they're middle America like
46:05>> which I would wager is more than the
46:07people that are
46:08>> bingo right
46:08>> bingo by a huge margin
46:09>> I I think I think the way to make that
46:12more accessible approachable is to
46:14really lower the barrier for entry and
46:16when we think about the things that we
46:18know to work I think people's
46:21understanding of the you know what's the
46:24minimum viable amount
46:26>> I think that they the the
46:30concept uh the um understanding is that
46:31that bar is much higher than it is right
46:33if if people were to do you know 10, 20
46:37minutes a day of these things, but do
46:39them forever,
46:41>> they would get a much higher yield than
46:43trying to cram in two, three hours a
46:45day, three or four days a week, right?
46:47Because it's much more likely that
46:48they'll adhere to it with consistency.
46:51It won't suck the fun out of life. It'll
46:53be easier, less fictitious, and they may
46:56well enjoy doing it. And so I do think
46:59if we can really get clear on what we
47:04are being told, which of which of what
47:06we're being told is [ __ ] and which
47:08is actually very high yielding.
47:11>> You know, most of the things, in fact,
47:13all of the things that you mentioned,
47:14there's evidence that they work for a
47:16lot of people a lot of the time, but
47:18then some of the things work for
47:20everyone every time.
47:21>> Yeah.
47:22>> Right. And I think if we can help them
47:24discern that signal from noise and then
47:26say, "Look, you you're fine doing 10 20
47:28minutes a day as long as you do it every
47:30day." Yes.
47:31>> So find something that works for you
47:32that you can stick to with consistency.
47:34>> What do you like? What do you enjoy to
47:36do?
47:36>> Do more of it.
47:37>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go
47:39to bed at the same time if you can.
47:41>> Wake up at a like don't have too much
47:43more than half an hour of swing either
47:45way. Like there's not really any
47:48researcher that I've ever heard who said
47:51regularity and duration for sleep are
47:55not as important as people are saying.
47:57>> Yeah.
47:57>> Like even that is something that
47:59everyone will happily harp on about and
48:01overe and overe because they know that
48:03the gap between
48:05>> impact and adherence
48:08>> is light years apart.
48:10>> Yeah. Sadly, on that note,
48:14are there things that
48:17you have been told by any number of
48:21guests that you know you've been told
48:22time and time and again there's great
48:24evidence for this. You've then looked
48:26into and there is great evidence. You've
48:28then tried it and you're like this just
48:29doesn't work for me.
48:32>> What didn't I like? Uh keto
48:36really do not do well with high fat. M
48:38>> I just I don't enjoy it. My palette
48:42isn't a massive fan of it. I don't like
48:43the foods that I need to eat in order to
48:45be able to get there.
48:46>> Uh meat and fruit, interestingly enough,
48:49I found fine.
48:51>> The problem so high protein, low
48:52everything else sweet,
48:54>> but the highfat thing, the fat was
48:56really just it didn't make me feel good.
48:58It made I I couldn't regulate my
49:00appetite particularly well. Even though
49:02I know that the evidence for keto for uh
49:06performance, especially for me being
49:09worried about cognition or caring about
49:11cognition as much as I do, I should have
49:13been a poster child for it.
49:15>> Uh but that that just was not my bag at
49:18all. And I, you know, Tim Ferrris, who's
49:21a good friend, is ardent about uh keto
49:24for brain function and mental health and
49:26mood stability and things. I'm like, I'm
49:29sorry, my brother, I just can't do it.
49:31So that was that was one. Uh I couldn't
49:34get into low and slow training for a
49:35while and now I've done it and now
49:36apparently I need to unlearn it and
49:38start doing hit instead. So we'll see
49:40where the research goes next and I'll
49:41have to I'll be doing like boxer size or
49:43something before Yeah. pilateses.
49:45>> Yeah.
49:45>> Uh that's those that's the the big one
49:48that comes to mind for me when you think
49:51about all these different verticals.
49:53>> To me, nutrition feels like the one that
49:56there's the most amount of discord
49:58still. Agreed. even in high science. Do
50:01you agree with that? And if so, what
50:05would you say is the one I I mean, look,
50:08I I don't love the idea of us having
50:10some nutrition religion, but do you have
50:13a specific nutrition plan that you
50:15follow that has worked well for you?
50:17>> Uh,
50:18yes. So, interestingly, I guess from my
50:21entire adult life, because I've been
50:23such a brol lifter, as a lot of dudes
50:25have, it's just I've optimized protein
50:27for my entire life. So that's like good.
50:28I in some ways closed my eyes through
50:31the dart of the dart board and hit
50:32something close to like oh this is going
50:34to be evidence-based in a decade. Fun
50:36like and it's just that bodybuilders got
50:37there first. Hooray for that.
50:39>> I love that weight training has turned
50:40out to be the
50:41>> Yeah. Hooray. Brilliant. Like I just
50:43thought I just thought I was getting
50:44girls. Um
50:46>> one [snorts] of the challenges of that
50:48was that I lived through the uh if it
50:51fits your macros era. And this was a a
50:54world where macronutrients, protein,
50:57carbs, fats were all that matters. And
51:00if you hit your carbs through Haribo and
51:03your protein through shakes and your
51:06fats through avocado, it is the same
51:08functionally as if you'd had it through
51:11three home-cooked meals that were well
51:13balanced with, you know, micronutrients
51:14and fiber and stuff like that in.
51:16>> Yeah.
51:17>> Turns out that the bodybuilders might
51:18have just been living like extended
51:19adolescence. Yeah. there. Um, when it
51:23comes to sort of the new world of this,
51:25I just had a really fantastic
51:27conversation, Harvard researcher on and
51:30he was taking me through, I think he
51:31tried the 10 most popular diets ever and
51:36he'd done ones I hadn't even heard of.
51:38Uh, is it the the sprint diet or
51:41something which is [snorts] high carb,
51:43low protein? I was like, what even is
51:46that? what it's like is including some
51:48sugars as well in there like actually
51:50you can get a ton of sugar. I was like
51:51well how does that how's that given that
51:54the opposite has been so touted around
51:56and he did everything he did pescatarian
51:57he did vegan he did carnivore he did uh
52:02uh blue zone adjacent Mediterranean look
52:07if I'm going to take from like all of
52:08the people that I've spoken to the most
52:11common approach I would say
52:14Mediterranean
52:17cranking the protein a tiny bit, like
52:20just pushing protein a little bit,
52:21because I do think that some of the push
52:23back against protein has been overdone
52:25now because it's in everything. It's in
52:27your
52:28>> nacho chips and it's in your cereal and
52:31it's in your the seat of the car that
52:33you drive and stuff. You got to pick a
52:35bit of that off and chew on it. Um, I
52:38would say across everything,
52:40Mediterranean adjacent diet with
52:43probably a little bit more protein than
52:45they would typically eat. But for me
52:46personally, skipping breakfast is just
52:48such a great way for me to get keep
52:53calories under control. Uh, backload
52:56calories and especially carbs later in
52:58the day where insulin sensitivities
53:00adjusted somewhat. Uh and it it does
53:04keep me a little bit sharper especially
53:06up until and then if I can do the same
53:08thing there used to be do you remember
53:09carb back loing from back in the day?
53:11Yeah. So this is this idea that because
53:13insulin sensitivity changes over time
53:16>> if you push your carbs toward later in
53:18the day there is something to do with
53:20nutrient shuttling that means that
53:22you're going to be less likely to use
53:24that as fat more likely to do I don't
53:26really know how the science figured out
53:27in that. What I do know is that if I I
53:29don't ever cheat with a Mars bar for
53:31breakfast,
53:32>> I cheat with a Mars bar for supper,
53:34dinner.
53:35>> I do the same. I mean, I just think it
53:37feels easier to stick to, right? Like I
53:41find it easier to not eat in the
53:42morning. I've never been a huge
53:44breakfast guy. Um, and then just
53:46condense that window of eating,
53:48>> push it toward the back end of the day.
53:49And then if you do principle,
53:50>> if you do the same thing again, you can
53:52kind of double cheat this or at least
53:54I've found this to be a really effective
53:55way. And this is kind of how I've eaten
53:57for most of my adult life now. If I miss
54:00breakfast, if I train, I do have a
54:03protein shake. The intra workout window
54:05kind of thing seems the science seems to
54:07be a bit dodgy on that, but whatever.
54:08Like, it's just good to go, okay, I
54:11trained, I'll put 30 grams of protein in
54:13me, 40 grams of like, hooray for that.
54:15Fantastic. Um, and then if you're lunch,
54:18if you can manage to avoid largely avoid
54:20carbs for that, by the time that you're
54:22in the middle of the afternoon, you got
54:23a little bit of adrenaline. So, you need
54:24to be comfortable with that, which I
54:27quite like because that makes me feel
54:28especially because I record at 2 in the
54:29afternoon. If I've had maybe
54:31>> to record at the same time every day,
54:32>> every day. Yeah. 2:00.
54:34>> Two o'clock for me is
54:36>> it's when you peak.
54:37>> It's it's I'm pretty dialed. I've had
54:39enough time in the morning to do some
54:41stuff for me to lock in for the guest.
54:44I've eaten a bit of calories, but like
54:46maybe some eggs with some berries, maybe
54:49some some vegetables on the side, some
54:52like kale or something like that. And
54:54then going to the episode and then like
54:57if I was doing macro tracking, I'm like,
54:59I've got 220 grams of car, 250 grams of
55:03carbs left for the day. I haven't
55:05touched them. I haven't had anything.
55:06Isn't this great? I can go through or I
55:08can have a big dinner and I'm not going
55:09to feel guilty about it. I can feel
55:11satisfied as I go to bed. So for me,
55:13back loing, not just pushing like
55:16calorie
55:17uh distribution, but also um the way
55:21that I discriminate different
55:22macronutrients throughout the day and
55:24keeping the carbs for the end of the
55:25day. It makes me feel full. It makes me
55:26sleep better, all that stuff. Hey, have
55:28you seen this um what's it called?
55:31Double double starch uh resistant
55:34starch. Is that it? So it's when you
55:36cook potatoes. Oh yeah.
55:37>> You cool them, then you cook them again
55:39and you cool them again and you eat them
55:40when they're cooled. And it's supposed
55:41to be really good for gut health.
55:42>> I think there is some truth to that.
55:44>> I've seen this. This is picking up
55:45speed. So, if I was to lick my finger
55:46and put it in the air, I think that
55:48we're through the protein revolution.
55:51Think that's done. It's it's still in
55:53everything, but it's it's not cutting
55:55edge. I think the creatine revolution is
55:56at its peak. I think the fiber and gut
56:00health revolution
56:02>> just beginning
56:02>> is on the ascendancy.
56:04>> Yeah. And I think the other stuff that
56:06people are going to be paying attention
56:07to, water quality, uh, so something like
56:10an aquatru, like a reverse osmosis or a
56:12Burki. Um, air quality, so something
56:16like a Jasper, uh, being worried about
56:18mold. So the mold co do great, uh,
56:20testing and stuff like that for mold.
56:22Uh, and then light quality. So flicker
56:25of LED bulbs, how that impacts people's
56:27health. All of this is like I'm getting
56:28a bit more exploratory.
56:30>> No, look, I I agree with you.
56:32Environmental like home health. I we we
56:35do a lot we do a very deep diagnostics
56:37assessment in members homes where we'll
56:39send in a bunch of scientists to go and
56:41analyze water, air, particullet, mold
56:44exposure, EMF, toxins.
56:46>> Wow.
56:46>> And it's extremely in-depth. This will
56:49be something that becomes much more
56:50scalable and affordable.
56:52>> The thing I love about those as
56:54interventions and tests
56:57>> is that they don't require the person to
56:59do anything. Right? So you remove all
57:01the friction. Yeah,
57:02>> you could be away from the home for the
57:04weekend, you come home and those changes
57:06have been made to improve the whole
57:08family's health. And I think the things
57:10that are going to gain lots of traction
57:13over the coming years are the ones that
57:15can yield us a return without adding
57:18more to our plate.
57:19>> A pivot from plastic containers and
57:22Tupperware to glass. Yeah. a pivot from
57:24classic non-stick pans to like hexclad
57:27or something like or a steel pan or um
57:31iron cast iron pans, stuff like that.
57:34But we just don't we don't know what we
57:35don't know, right? And so this is where
57:37I think it's it's such a challenge for a
57:39consumer. All of the trends you just
57:42mentioned when they were trendy,
57:46we were being told how important and
57:49efficacious they were by people who are
57:51really compelling,
57:52>> right? And it's so difficult even as
57:54people that work in the field who get to
57:56to have the opportunity to speak to the
57:58experts if they are great communicators
58:01of science.
58:03It's pretty compelling and it's very
58:05difficult to discern whether they're
58:07just a great communicator or whether
58:10they're
58:11>> doing great science.
58:13>> Yeah. Uh I mean this is true in every
58:17area of the world that we mistake
58:22conviction and fluency for truthfulness
58:24and expertise.
58:26>> How do you how do you determine that
58:28with the guests?
58:30>> Usually I'll look at their back catalog,
58:33their history, you know, what are their
58:34credentials like? What do I know about
58:36them?
58:36>> And then I've got a good sense now of
58:39where the science is at. An all right
58:42sense for a normie, right? I've got okay
58:44radar.
58:45>> Um, and I'll just poke
58:47>> I'll poke enough. So, if there's
58:49something that I know that I I should
58:51really quiz a guest on because they had
58:53this claim that they made in the past.
58:56Well, okay. I understand that you're
58:57very excited about this new thing, but
58:59it wasn't that long ago that this
59:01happened. So, what can you how do you
59:04know because I want you to be right and
59:06I want to be right and I want to learn
59:07from you. But I got to say it it sets
59:11the sort of amber alarms off a little
59:13bit when I think, well, there was this
59:15thing from the past and now how do you
59:17know that you're not just repeating the
59:19same mistake you made previously?
59:21>> Little pokes here and there, but you're
59:22right. I mean, this whole world, this is
59:24the whole thing uh with the mold co as a
59:27good example. Um it is to try and work
59:31out is there mold in my house? Have I is
59:35it affecting me and my physiology and
59:38how do I get rid of it?
59:40>> It is
59:42so difficult to do. It is uh arduous and
59:47and and
59:49it takes forever. It's so long to detox
59:52from mold. You're just binding taking
59:54colostyamine or charcoal or cola severe
59:57multiple times a day having to move your
1:00:00food around to avoid that from happening
1:00:02for months, months and months. went
1:00:03through this.
1:00:04>> I did. Yeah.
1:00:05>> Can can we talk about this?
1:00:07>> Sure.
1:00:08>> You know, you spent
1:00:10many years talking to people about how
1:00:12to optimize for your health and then
1:00:14you've get this diagnosis, right?
1:00:16>> How did maybe if you would explain what
1:00:19that was and then how that sat with you
1:00:22>> for someone who is, you know, I think
1:00:23the the highle message
1:00:26>> that I think is worth sharing is like
1:00:27you can do everything right.
1:00:29>> Right. and and still
1:00:31>> get smashed in the face by reality.
1:00:34Yeah. Uh
1:00:35>> yeah, America is a wonderful country,
1:00:37but it's water and its air and its
1:00:39building materials are trying to kill
1:00:40everybody that lives in it and the food
1:00:42as well. Um
1:00:45>> so yeah, that's that's kind of that's
1:00:46kind of the summation. Look, I I moved
1:00:48to America four years ago. Um, a lot of
1:00:51immigrants have this issue, a lot of
1:00:54Mexican immigrants do, too, that uh
1:00:56they'll have digestive trouble because
1:00:58they're not used to a lot of the
1:01:00additives, uh, the the just the raw
1:01:04foundation of what an American diet,
1:01:06even if you're trying to eat relatively
1:01:08clean, which I I always have done. Um,
1:01:10and about 2 and a half years ago, I
1:01:13noticed that I was being more tired,
1:01:16didn't have the same kind of energy, I
1:01:18was being a bit forgetful, and my mood
1:01:20was low. And I was like, well, I've had
1:01:22each of these things individually, you
1:01:23know, if I'm sleep deprived or if I'm
1:01:25having a a stressful time emotionally or
1:01:27whatever.
1:01:28>> Like, this just feels different and
1:01:30heavier. And it just kept getting worse
1:01:32and kept getting worse and kept getting
1:01:33worse. And then the start of 2024, it's
1:01:35like, oh, I'm there's really, really
1:01:37something wrong. like I don't feel good
1:01:39at all. And it turned out that the house
1:01:41I was living in had uh lot of mold,
1:01:44toxic mold. Three of the top four
1:01:48>> uh strains that you do not want at very
1:01:50very high levels and subsequent genetic
1:01:54testing that I did, you can have a
1:01:56polymorphism or a number of
1:01:57polymorphisms that mean you have poor
1:01:59detox pathways. So that's how I lived in
1:02:01the house, the same house as another
1:02:02housemmaid of mine.
1:02:03>> And he was like ripping sigs, going to
1:02:06bed at 3 in the morning and just loving
1:02:08life. Meanwhile, I felt like I was
1:02:10living on Jupiter with gravity that was
1:02:1110 times what it should be.
1:02:13>> Um, but all of this was found out and
1:02:14this is for anybody that's dealing with
1:02:17chronic complex illness. I really really
1:02:21feel for you because there's this weird
1:02:23game of Sherlock Holmes like guess who.
1:02:25It's like oh maybe it's the BPA cuz
1:02:27they're out of whack. Oh, well maybe
1:02:29it's the CMV. Oh, well maybe it's the
1:02:32EBV. Oh, well maybe it's you've got some
1:02:34Lyme disease, but it's like IGG, not
1:02:36IGN, so like really it's not active. Why
1:02:38would you be why would that be causing
1:02:39this? Oh, well maybe maybe it's your
1:02:42nervous system. Or maybe there's
1:02:43something going on. Maybe let's have a
1:02:45look at your B vitamin B levels. Well,
1:02:47you do have the MT. And you're playing
1:02:48this game of guess who?
1:02:50>> What is causing me to feel bad? And if
1:02:52you run enough tests on people, you will
1:02:54find loads of things that are out that
1:02:56are in the red. They're even extreme,
1:02:58but you don't know which one of those or
1:03:00which few of those are causing you to
1:03:02feel this way. It's the same as people
1:03:03that got bad backs. You can do uh an MRI
1:03:07of someone's lower back and it can look
1:03:09[ __ ] and they don't have any pain.
1:03:12They operate perfectly. And you can do
1:03:13an MRI of someone who's in chronic pain
1:03:15and you're like, "Spine looks great."
1:03:17>> And by the way, the same applies on the
1:03:19other side, right? You can do lots of
1:03:21things to optimize for your health. It's
1:03:23very difficult to pinpoint which of
1:03:25those things is working. Bingo,
1:03:26>> right? Or which lever is actually
1:03:28causing the improvement in cognition or
1:03:30physiology or
1:03:30>> so you end up this is how people end up
1:03:32with this sort of weird ritualistic rain
1:03:35dance that they have to do. It's it
1:03:37almost becomes more uh superstitious
1:03:41>> than it is an effective strategy. Like I
1:03:44don't know what's going like a baseball
1:03:45player. I do the glove, I do the glove,
1:03:47I tap the foot, I tap the foot, I shake
1:03:48the helmet, then it's done.
1:03:50>> Then you can't not do it.
1:03:51>> There's also a huge placebo effect both
1:03:53ways.
1:03:54>> Correct. So anyway, I uh I I go on this
1:03:56journey of trying to fix myself of uh
1:03:59okay, what is it that's been the big I
1:04:01got the vaccine. I got three because I
1:04:03was in the UK when it happened and
1:04:05>> had to
1:04:06>> you did 98% compliance with the first
1:04:08and I believe
1:04:10>> 96% with the second, 92% with the third,
1:04:12I think something like that
1:04:13>> and um yeah, there's Okay, so I got that
1:04:16and I didn't really notice anything. But
1:04:19then I got COVID twice and the second
1:04:21time was part of what kicked this off.
1:04:24And
1:04:24>> yeah, I go on this huge journey for
1:04:26ages. I must have done hundreds of IVs,
1:04:28you know, like tests, thousand, tens of
1:04:31thousands of supplements,
1:04:33binders and and phosphotetal choline and
1:04:37all of this stuff like just trying to
1:04:39counteract what's going on. And and uh
1:04:41then you're left with this period of
1:04:44time where you think, well, I'm supposed
1:04:45I'm young. I'm doing all of this stuff
1:04:46for my health. Like I I'm not being I
1:04:49was uh adventurous in my 20ies, but I
1:04:53was never like flippant or dangerous
1:04:54with my health.
1:04:55>> Uh and I like to party and stuff, but I
1:04:58wasn't insane. And now there is
1:05:00absolutely some dude in [ __ ]
1:05:03Nebraska,
1:05:05>> right? [snorts] Who doesn't even know
1:05:07that Andrew Hubman exists that can't
1:05:10find Brian Johnson on a map. Perfect
1:05:13health. Absolutely. lives in a house
1:05:14with mold that just does not care and
1:05:17it's totally fine could deadlift four
1:05:19450 without even thinking about it like
1:05:22just great and then you go okay how and
1:05:24this is where the finger gets pointed
1:05:26the reason that you're ill is because of
1:05:27your obsession
1:05:29>> you have somehow psychoggenically
1:05:32created this and you go it's a [ __ ]
1:05:34wonderful way to victim blame someone
1:05:36who can't remember how to tie their
1:05:37shoes which was a period I went through
1:05:39looked down at my feet and I was like I
1:05:41don't know how to
1:05:42>> do those laces Like if you're telling me
1:05:45that I've managed to psychosmatically
1:05:48hate the smell of water, hate the smell
1:05:50of cut grass, forget how to tie my
1:05:53shoes, like sleep for 12 hours and wake
1:05:55up feeling more tired than when I went
1:05:57to bed. I'm sorry. I just don't I don't
1:06:00think I'm that sophisticated.
1:06:02>> How did you manage to continue
1:06:04working
1:06:05>> with difficulty? Uh I lived in a hotel
1:06:08for
1:06:10hotels for like 4 months cuz my house
1:06:12was being remediated to people that have
1:06:14got mold in their house. The
1:06:17>> it is very very difficult to remediate.
1:06:20My my recommendation is strongly in like
1:06:2399 out of 100
1:06:24>> move
1:06:25>> move especially if you've got a landlord
1:06:28they cannot keep you in there. You can
1:06:30new to the rent find yourself a
1:06:32long-term stay and you know for now
1:06:34it'll be good. the changeover of like
1:06:36you've got to clean everything twice
1:06:37with special fluid like prove that it's
1:06:40all work.
1:06:40>> I had to throw out everything all my
1:06:42possessions. Lived in a a hotel for
1:06:44ages. Um but yeah, I basically kind of
1:06:47shut down my life outside of
1:06:49>> I had two jobs. Fix myself and run the
1:06:52show
1:06:53>> and I I stopped my life outside of that.
1:06:56I didn't do anything else.
1:06:57>> Can I ask you a personal question?
1:06:58>> Sure. for someone who spends so much of
1:07:01their time and energy, you know,
1:07:04optimizing to improve the way that they
1:07:06feel. And I am one of these people. If I
1:07:08don't, if I'm unable to work out or do
1:07:11the things that I know make me feel
1:07:13good, it impacts my mental health.
1:07:16>> Did you have a period there where it was
1:07:18a bit dark?
1:07:20>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's not nice to
1:07:25spend a long time building yourself into
1:07:27the sort of person you're proud of
1:07:29>> to then have that taken away through
1:07:31what feels like no
1:07:35action of your own.
1:07:36>> Like, hang on. So you're telling me I
1:07:37worked really hard to become a thing
1:07:41that I value from something that I
1:07:44didn't so much and my hard one
1:07:47self-esteem is now being insulted
1:07:50>> and I didn't I don't even get the reward
1:07:54of being able to oh yeah at least you
1:07:56know I did four months on blow in Vegas
1:07:58like wasn't that fun like at least I got
1:08:00to like own my shortcoming. It's like
1:08:02being It's a difference between being in
1:08:04a car crash when you're the driver and
1:08:05being hit by a reckless driver. You're
1:08:07like, I didn't even I didn't even choose
1:08:09this to happen.
1:08:10>> Yeah.
1:08:10>> And um Yeah, it's it's rough, dude. It's
1:08:13really it's given me a pharmaceutical
1:08:16grade dose of humility.
1:08:18>> Like it really has.
1:08:20>> But and you know, I'd say this to
1:08:22anybody that's gone through a tough
1:08:24period with with their health. First
1:08:26off, you are still in there, but there's
1:08:28no depth of health damage that I have
1:08:33seen from stuff like this. Obviously,
1:08:35there's extremes.
1:08:37>> There's no degree of health damage from
1:08:41complex illness where somebody hasn't
1:08:43been able to once they're out of it and
1:08:44fix themselves become themselves again,
1:08:47right? Like this is this fear I lost who
1:08:49I was, like I'm not me anymore. Uh
1:08:52that's not something that at least in
1:08:55and I've been exposed to lots of people
1:08:56that have reached out to me after I
1:08:58talked about my story online.
1:09:00The people that are still in it are
1:09:01still in it. But the people that are out
1:09:02of it are like I'm I'm out. That being
1:09:05said, there is a kind of humility
1:09:08that especially men I think
1:09:13only get access to when they've been in
1:09:16a situation where they literally didn't
1:09:19know if they were going to get better. M
1:09:21that's the difference between going
1:09:22through a hard time that everyone goes
1:09:24through and really really hitting rock
1:09:27bottom because
1:09:29it imbuss you with this like inescapable
1:09:32amount of empathy if you go like I was
1:09:35in so much [ __ ]
1:09:38how can I judge this other person if
1:09:40somebody had seen me from the outside
1:09:43dude stop whining you look fine you're
1:09:45in great condition what are you talking
1:09:46you still running the party like just
1:09:48because somebody carries a weight
1:09:50>> doesn't mean it isn't heavy
1:09:52>> right like you can't see how much
1:09:54somebody is bearing inside and that has
1:09:56been as a only child selfstarter you
1:09:59know agency highly sovereign personal
1:10:01like determination person uh I there was
1:10:05I had a degree of flippency I think
1:10:07around the challenges that other people
1:10:09were facing
1:10:10>> and um it's impossible it is simply
1:10:13impossible and that's painful you know
1:10:15this is
1:10:17you walk through New York and for all
1:10:19it's an amazing city that I absolutely
1:10:20love. There's a lot of homeless people
1:10:22and I think if you fully take in
1:10:25the like human
1:10:29misfortune of that situation, you'd
1:10:32probably be crying most of your way to
1:10:33work.
1:10:33>> Yeah, I agree.
1:10:34>> Like you actually need to you wall
1:10:36yourself off against this stuff because
1:10:38there's so much exposure to like extreme
1:10:42situations and misery you god I I can't
1:10:46even operate if I try and do this thing.
1:10:48Um, and this is this has been a really
1:10:52unchosen but probably quite useful
1:10:55reminder of humility for me.
1:10:58>> I think it's easy to forget as well that
1:11:00so much of our success, failure, health,
1:11:03ill health is half chance, right? And
1:11:06that those things can happen, you know,
1:11:08we're one diagnosis away from a
1:11:10completely different life.
1:11:12>> Bingo. Yeah. And you can do everything
1:11:13right and be ill. You can do absolutely
1:11:15everything right and still be
1:11:16>> Chris. That one is that for you a good
1:11:18example of a lesson that you needed to
1:11:23be taught that you couldn't be taught
1:11:25through anything other than experience?
1:11:27>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
1:11:29>> I've heard you talk about that in the
1:11:30past.
1:11:30>> Untachable lessons.
1:11:31>> Unteable lessons.
1:11:33>> Yeah. Yeah. There this unique category
1:11:35of insight that we can't learn other
1:11:38than through experience.
1:11:39>> It's annoying, isn't it?
1:11:40>> It's highly annoying. What's that line?
1:11:42Uh, any idiot can learn from experience.
1:11:44I prefer to learn from the experience of
1:11:45others. Yeah,
1:11:46>> but there's this category like money
1:11:50won't make you happy. Fame won't fix
1:11:52your self worth. You don't love that
1:11:54pretty girl. She's just hot and
1:11:55difficult to get.
1:11:56>> Uh you should see your parents more. You
1:11:58won't regret working less.
1:12:00>> Lying in a hammock is never a waste of
1:12:02time. Like all of these things sound
1:12:04like basic [ __ ] cliche insights. And
1:12:06people sort of roll their eyes at how
1:12:08tright they are. But the reason that
1:12:09that's the case is that they are
1:12:12wellworn ruts in the ground from the
1:12:15millions of people that have come before
1:12:16you. We basically all think some version
1:12:18of
1:12:20I can disregard the most well-re
1:12:23repeated wisdom of the ages from
1:12:25mythology, media, literature, cinema,
1:12:30popular culture, music, and instead we
1:12:33think some version of yeah, that might
1:12:34be true for them but not for me. Yeah,
1:12:36>> I'm going to dance through this
1:12:37minefield, avoid all of the trip wires,
1:12:39and I'll make it out the other side
1:12:40fine. And then you kick one, and you're
1:12:43now part of this illustrious club of a
1:12:45few million billion other people who all
1:12:47learned the same thing.
1:12:48>> Isn't it interesting? You're like, "Oh,
1:12:50they were right as well. They had some
1:12:52of the scars."
1:12:53>> There's one of two things that are
1:12:54happening. Either it's true or every
1:12:59person that becomes rich or famous or
1:13:02gets a hot girl or spends not enough
1:13:04time in a hammock or whatever comes to
1:13:06the same realization, secretly contacts
1:13:08everyone else that's done it, gets
1:13:10inducted into this weird cartel cult and
1:13:12goes, "Let's pull the ladder up after
1:13:14everybody else. Let's pull the ladder up
1:13:16and actually try and prove to them that
1:13:19money is the thing that will make you
1:13:21happy, that fame will fix your self
1:13:23worth, that that crazy girl is the one
1:13:25that's you should stick. Like that's not
1:13:28there is not enough coordination on
1:13:30planet Earth to be able to do that.
1:13:32>> And it's not it's just that people
1:13:33arrive there and they realize external
1:13:35success won't fill the internal void.
1:13:37Right? But there is there's a one thing
1:13:39I've been thinking about a lot recently
1:13:40is this idea. It's called the fading a
1:13:42effect bias. So, uh, good memories and
1:13:45bad memories fade with time, but bad me
1:13:47bad memories fade faster. And sometimes
1:13:49bad memories become funny after long
1:13:51enough.
1:13:52>> What this means is that we forget the
1:13:55pain that we went through, but we often
1:13:58remember the reward. So, somebody that
1:14:00works at a very highowered job and is
1:14:02close to burnout and leaves 12 months
1:14:05later, they're actually like, well, I
1:14:07missed the status. It wasn't that bad.
1:14:09It's the it wasn't that bad muscle. The
1:14:12same thing happens for someone that's
1:14:13got a gambling or a a drug alcohol
1:14:16addiction. They think, you know, at the
1:14:18time they remembered the visceral shame,
1:14:20the the mornings waking up feeling like
1:14:22they need to make excuses for themselves
1:14:24and then 18 months later they're like,
1:14:26you know, they relapse. And the same
1:14:28thing happens with budgeting in finance
1:14:30that someone who's dragged themselves
1:14:32out of debt by working the double shift
1:14:34and then that new car payment, it
1:14:35doesn't look so bad because they don't
1:14:37remember the pain in the same way that
1:14:40they can recall the pleasure. And the
1:14:43same thing goes for health and illness.
1:14:45Like people
1:14:47Basically progress destroys the receipts
1:14:51that were why the progress was needed in
1:14:54the first place. It gets rid of the pain
1:14:57that motivated you to begin that
1:15:00particular path.
1:15:01>> And this is how someone stops taking the
1:15:03medicine or gets off their diet or you
1:15:06decides that they're not going to stick
1:15:08to their workout regime or whatever it
1:15:10is. And this isn't to say that one or 10
1:15:14or [ __ ] 100 days of not hitting your
1:15:17thing is going to be the end of you.
1:15:18>> Yeah.
1:15:19>> But we're always paying into a ledger.
1:15:21Like there's no such thing as not
1:15:23drilling a habit. Even inaction is a
1:15:25habit. Like there's no impartial
1:15:27decision. Not making a decision is still
1:15:29a decision. You're drilling the I don't
1:15:31make a decision muscle.
1:15:33>> So okay, what are you going to pay into?
1:15:34And you don't need to do it every single
1:15:36day. You don't need to castigate
1:15:38yourself, prostrate yourself on the the
1:15:40altar of of progress and development and
1:15:43optimization every single day, but
1:15:45especially if you've ripped yourself out
1:15:46of a bad situation, it is kind of good
1:15:48to revisit that pain every so often to
1:15:50go,
1:15:51>> I do not want to go back there.
1:15:54>> You know, for me, I I'm if I want to
1:15:55move into a new place, it's going to be
1:15:57so arduous for me to do the level of
1:15:58testing I need to make sure it's not
1:16:00mold. Yeah, speak to you. Uh but now
1:16:03that I'm your friend, it's much easier.
1:16:06If I forget just how bad it was when I
1:16:09was at peak mold and I looked down at my
1:16:11shoes and couldn't remember them or I
1:16:12forgot my friend's name while I was
1:16:13looking at him. Like I that's the
1:16:16motivation. That's why I did it. So I I
1:16:18I should stick to that. So yeah, fading
1:16:20affect bias explains why people who were
1:16:23motivated to do a thing in the past have
1:16:24forgotten the reason that they were
1:16:25motivated to do it now in the future.
1:16:28>> We could do a whole episode on that. I
1:16:29love it. I'm not going to I'm not going
1:16:30to unpack that.
1:16:31>> It's one of my favorite new insights. I
1:16:33one one comment I will will add though
1:16:35actually is that I think something that
1:16:37we are
1:16:39>> missing almost entirely in this space is
1:16:42self-compassion
1:16:43>> you know where you know we go through
1:16:45these cyclical periods of adhering to
1:16:49whatever protocol we we're doing in the
1:16:51moment and then we fail and then we beat
1:16:53ourselves up that we fail and then we're
1:16:54like well that didn't work I'm not going
1:16:56to do it again but the people who seem
1:16:58to succeed in the long term are the ones
1:17:01that dust themselves off,
1:17:03>> give it another go, fail again, do it
1:17:05again, and just continue on that
1:17:07cyclical nature until they find
1:17:09something that fits and works.
1:17:11>> I I love that idea about compassion. I
1:17:13think it's so good. Um, what's really
1:17:15really cool and very difficult, but a
1:17:18lot of the people that feel like they're
1:17:19always the uh negative parent inside of
1:17:22their own mind. That's a a lovely little
1:17:24exercise that you can do. Try to have
1:17:27compassion for the thing that you did
1:17:28and try to have compassion for the part
1:17:30of you that's judging you as well.
1:17:32>> One of the things you realize on the
1:17:34judging you as well bit is that the
1:17:36judge is really trying to help.
1:17:38>> The reason you're judging yourself is
1:17:40you want to do something good for you.
1:17:42>> You know it's important.
1:17:43>> You know, it makes me think, you know,
1:17:44those Roombas, the little robot vacuum
1:17:46cleaners. I envision my own sort of
1:17:50bastard in a voice. Uh, a little bit
1:17:52like a overzealous but quite crap Roomba
1:17:56and he like gets stuck underneath the
1:17:58chair and he's cleaning a corner that's
1:17:59being cleaned all the like so much and
1:18:01he's going around like trying to whisk
1:18:03things up and he doesn't need to and he
1:18:04needs to recharge. I'm like he really
1:18:06just wants to do it well. Like he really
1:18:09just wants me to be good and and healthy
1:18:13and happy and and respected and liked by
1:18:16people and like [ __ ] man like just come
1:18:18here. Like I appreciate you. Now is not
1:18:20the time for you.
1:18:21>> I'm at dinner with my friends
1:18:24>> but I really appreciate you being there.
1:18:26Like thank you for being there.
1:18:29>> Just not now. All right. And I think
1:18:31that degree of compassion for the thing
1:18:33you did and compassion for the judging
1:18:35is you can get like three, four, five
1:18:38degrees of separation of compassion if
1:18:39you need to.
1:18:40>> Um,
1:18:41>> but that's a nice place to start. And if
1:18:43you do feel like, god, I've got this
1:18:45like overoptimization guilt and now I
1:18:47have shame about my guilt and now I have
1:18:49anxiety about my shame about my guilt.
1:18:51This infinite regress of you judging
1:18:53yourself. Okay, you can just say, well,
1:18:55why is it there? what's there because I
1:18:57really like I want to look out for
1:18:59myself and I felt powerless as a kid or
1:19:01people didn't seem to care about me so I
1:19:03wanted to be really impressive or I was
1:19:06ill in the past I'm worried that it's
1:19:07going to happen again or I saw my
1:19:09parents not take care of their health
1:19:10and I saw what it did to them and I'm I
1:19:12think that fear is a good solution for
1:19:13that. It's like all of those things are
1:19:15noble. Like straight up noble reasons.
1:19:18Noble reasons to do it. Like thank you
1:19:20for being there. Thank you for looking
1:19:21out for me.
1:19:23Let me give you a hug. Not now. I don't
1:19:26I don't I don't quite need you now. And
1:19:27I think that level of self-compassion is
1:19:29is much more accessible to people than
1:19:30they might think.
1:19:33>> Can can we touch on the price of
1:19:37success? Mhm.
1:19:38>> And the reason I say that,
1:19:42there's two questions I have here. One
1:19:44was, how long did it take you to realize
1:19:47that money wouldn't buy you happiness?
1:19:49>> Mhm.
1:19:50>> And the second one is
1:19:53specifically about the lonely chapter
1:19:56that you talk about.
1:19:57>> Mhm. All right. Yeah. Uh, the money
1:19:59doesn't buy you happiness thing. I think
1:20:00for me it was closer to probably success
1:20:03or like a claim won't buy you happiness.
1:20:05Money isn't my affection. Um I I was not
1:20:10from money. Never really had it. Don't
1:20:13entirely know what
1:20:13>> So you knew that early then?
1:20:15>> I just didn't know what to do with it.
1:20:16It wasn't materialism isn't my like
1:20:19>> drug of choice. But respect by people
1:20:21that I respect. Like that feels much
1:20:24more compelling to me. Uh and yeah.
1:20:27Yeah. Yeah. Degree of status and renown
1:20:30and and recognition and stuff. And um
1:20:33how long did it take? I think the the
1:20:36question that I asked after a while was
1:20:38like, "All right, if not now, then
1:20:40when?" Like, if it's not after you've
1:20:44been on all of the podcasts that you've
1:20:46wanted to and you've
1:20:50not because you forced them into it, but
1:20:51because they saw something, maybe you
1:20:54forgazed them, but like you they saw
1:20:55something in you that was like they
1:20:57really seemed to like you actually. And
1:20:59there's a big enough sample size to
1:21:00suggest that some of them at least are
1:21:02telling the truth.
1:21:03>> Like if not now, if if you're still
1:21:05looking for external validation, where's
1:21:07it end?
1:21:08>> Yeah. Like you've already achieved the
1:21:09goals you said would make you happy.
1:21:11You've already become friends with the
1:21:12people you said would give you selforth.
1:21:14You've already, you know, d it's just
1:21:16all the way. It's just this never ending
1:21:18thing. And also the pursuit is good,
1:21:20right? It's enjoyable. So that's like
1:21:21the that's the
1:21:22>> the first part of that. Um
1:21:25>> but it took a good while. the the dose
1:21:27was not zero like you know I I had to
1:21:29move to another country upend my entire
1:21:31life at 34 um go on a bunch of like huge
1:21:36podcasts in a desperate attempt to be
1:21:38like okay can I hold it together in this
1:21:40situation can I stand on stage at the
1:21:42event in Apollo in London in front of
1:21:44three and a half thousand people and not
1:21:45[ __ ] myself with just a mic in front of
1:21:46me for protection like can I do that I
1:21:49can okay well if not that oh is it the
1:21:51O2
1:21:52>> because if it's then it's going to be
1:21:54Wembley then it's going to be you know
1:21:55what It's whatever like it is what it
1:21:57is. Um the lonely chapter is this idea
1:22:00that
1:22:01>> I saw among me and a lot of my friends
1:22:03from the UK that was when you become so
1:22:06developed that you don't resonate with
1:22:08your old set of friends but you're not
1:22:10yet sufficiently developed that you've
1:22:12built your new set of friends. Martha
1:22:13Beck calls it the empty elevator.
1:22:15>> She's talking about you moving between
1:22:17floors and there's no one else in it. So
1:22:19this this lonely chapter idea really
1:22:20resonated with people online. I think it
1:22:23resonates with a particular kind of
1:22:26highly self-determined personal
1:22:28development, self-growththerer who
1:22:32wants to be integrated socially but
1:22:34maybe grew up in the sort of place where
1:22:35there aren't a ton of role models like
1:22:37the person they wanted to be like. And
1:22:39that meant that they kind of had to
1:22:40dismiss or or throw away push back
1:22:43against the uh direction of travel of
1:22:49most of the people around them. and they
1:22:51felt like they had to kind of go into a
1:22:53headwind or or kind of exit the jetream
1:22:55entirely to make a change in their life.
1:22:58They want to go sober, but all of their
1:22:59friends go to the pub on a weekend. And
1:23:01now that they're not drinking, they're
1:23:02like, "Oh, what are you doing? What are
1:23:03you doing that for?"
1:23:05>> Like, "Oh, you're not drinking again,
1:23:06are we? We'll see how long this one
1:23:07lasts."
1:23:08>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And alcohol is a
1:23:10big one of these because it's such a
1:23:12social cohesion thing. but cleaning up
1:23:14your diet, uh making a change with your
1:23:17with your mindset, saying, "I'm not
1:23:18going to speak badly of other people
1:23:20behind their back anymore." But that's
1:23:22how you and all of your family bonded.
1:23:24That was what a dinner table was. That
1:23:26your mom and dad would talk about the
1:23:27Joneses next door. Yeah, exactly. I I
1:23:30don't I don't want to talk like that
1:23:31anymore. Oh, you think you're too good
1:23:33for us?
1:23:33>> Or just you're not a part of us anymore.
1:23:36So, this is why people retreat and they
1:23:38do the introversion thing or the
1:23:39isolation thing to do the improvement
1:23:41thing. And that's noble in many ways,
1:23:44but then you need to do the
1:23:46reintegration thing and that becomes
1:23:48really hard because you're now someone
1:23:49new and you're in congruent. So what you
1:23:53think and who you are and what you want
1:23:55to do, you're you don't have the uh
1:23:58mastery that you used to at least in the
1:24:00past when you were an idiot and you
1:24:01didn't know what you were doing with
1:24:02your life and your friends were all
1:24:03people you didn't want to be around, but
1:24:05you didn't know that you didn't want to
1:24:06be around them and you didn't know that
1:24:07the habits that you were doing weren't
1:24:09ones that were good for you. You didn't
1:24:10know that you cared about improving your
1:24:12life or changing yourself in this way or
1:24:13losing weight, whatever it is. Like you
1:24:15were in congruence. It was shitty
1:24:18congruence, but like it was congruent.
1:24:20And now you you've got all of this
1:24:22self-doubt
1:24:23>> inside of you, which is what tarnishes
1:24:26this lonely chapter because you don't
1:24:28even have the confirmation, the promise
1:24:30of any glory on the other side of it.
1:24:32Doing all of these things, trying all of
1:24:34this stuff, you're getting it wrong.
1:24:35It's the hardest period it's ever going
1:24:37to be. trying to rip this thing like
1:24:38cold bar deadlifting this rocket ship
1:24:40off the floor trying to get to escape
1:24:42velocity and you have no idea if it's
1:24:45going to work like this is supposed to
1:24:46be my rocky cut scene it's three and a
1:24:48half minutes in the movie but it's been
1:24:49four years for me what the [ __ ] is going
1:24:51on
1:24:52>> and that
1:24:54>> sense of I don't know if I'm doing it
1:24:56right I'm tempted to go back to the old
1:24:58habits
1:24:59>> modes of recognition
1:25:02support from my friends like it's also
1:25:04typically the easiest solution Uh, and I
1:25:07don't even know. And then you get there,
1:25:09and this is the most ruthless thing.
1:25:12If you're a person that grows a lot and
1:25:14makes changes throughout your life, it's
1:25:16likely that you'll go through the lonely
1:25:17chapter. But if you make a lot of
1:25:19changes, you might go through it more
1:25:20than once.
1:25:21>> Yeah.
1:25:21>> And when you've arrived and you're like,
1:25:23"Oh, I thought I found my people and now
1:25:26you're telling me I have to do it again.
1:25:28>> I have to do it again."
1:25:30>> So, how do the people that are, you
1:25:32know, going through multiple versions of
1:25:34that or any version of that ensure that
1:25:37they don't just become lonely.
1:25:39>> It is there is definitely a degree of
1:25:41like who do you think you are
1:25:44>> even internally. Who do I think I am?
1:25:47Well, I think I'm better than these. I'm
1:25:50not saying that any of these changes
1:25:52make you a better or worse or more
1:25:54worthy, more valuable person than
1:25:57someone else. It's just about are you
1:26:00following what you think you're supposed
1:26:01to do with your life? Like what? And I
1:26:03think for a lot of people as well, like
1:26:05what's the alternative?
1:26:07>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:26:08>> You know, if you don't do this, then
1:26:09what?
1:26:10>> Yeah. Uh you need to push against
1:26:12something.
1:26:13>> The sort of people that listen to
1:26:14podcasts like yours and mine,
1:26:17>> they've got problemsolving brains. They
1:26:18sort of they're always turning a Rubik's
1:26:20cube in their head.
1:26:21>> They're trying to fix something or solve
1:26:23a problem. It's kind of fascinating.
1:26:24It's really enjoyable.
1:26:26But the thing is problem solving brains
1:26:28don't switch off when they don't have
1:26:31good problems to solve. They just start
1:26:33solving shitty problems. And this is how
1:26:36people become obsessed with politics or
1:26:37porn or that X.
1:26:39>> And it's like, hey, if you've got a
1:26:40problem solving brain, if you're coma,
1:26:43right? You're not going to switch that
1:26:45[ __ ] thing off. At least for me, comi
1:26:47is a a genetic variant. It's like the
1:26:49classic worrier overachiever. Um, it's a
1:26:52dopamine catakolamine baseline thing in
1:26:54the brain. Um there's many other reasons
1:26:56why I'm a worrier as well, but uh that's
1:27:00>> blame it on the jeans.
1:27:01>> Yeah, it is. I blame it on that's the
1:27:03easiest way for me to go. It's got
1:27:04nothing to do with
1:27:04>> Yeah.
1:27:05>> Uh like that's that's for me it's
1:27:08literally in every cell in my entire
1:27:11body for me to behave in that kind of a
1:27:14way.
1:27:15>> Okay, let's just give me good problems
1:27:17to solve.
1:27:18>> Point me in the right direction.
1:27:20>> Yeah, I'm g I've got this thing, right?
1:27:22like you've got let's say that you're
1:27:23the sort of person that's got tons of
1:27:25energy. So, okay, direct the energy
1:27:28towards something because it's going to
1:27:30go. So, okay, I I really really love
1:27:34meeting people.
1:27:35>> Cool. How can you use that in a way that
1:27:38you think is really like pro-social and
1:27:40is in line with your value as opposed to
1:27:42like I'm going to start a [ __ ] gang?
1:27:44Yeah.
1:27:44>> Like cuz you're going to meet people.
1:27:46Wouldn't that be great? Like some of
1:27:47them will have guns pointed at you, but
1:27:48like you're going to meet them. So yeah,
1:27:50the the people that are going through
1:27:51the lonely chapter, it's it's difficult.
1:27:53And the reason that it's difficult is
1:27:55why it's worthy. There isn't a single
1:27:57person I know of that's gone from a
1:27:59place they want to be, gone to a place
1:28:02they want to be, from one that they're
1:28:03not happy with without having to go
1:28:04through this. Because the likelihood of
1:28:06you being around a big enough cohort of
1:28:07people who are in the place that you
1:28:09want to, going to the place you want to,
1:28:11growing at the pace that you are, is
1:28:13basically zero.
1:28:15>> It's so rare. Oh, they're go and you're
1:28:18going to know them and they're going to
1:28:19be available and they're gonna want
1:28:20they're going to like you and be your
1:28:21age range or whatever, have your
1:28:23availability, speak your language. It's
1:28:25so rare. Okay, so I'm going to have to
1:28:28put my head down and at some point in
1:28:30the not too distant future, I'm going to
1:28:31get to poke it back up and I'm going to
1:28:32be this newly transformed individual.
1:28:35Again, just know in the same way the
1:28:37unteable lessons thing, you are in
1:28:39incredibly good company even if it feels
1:28:41like you're on your own.
1:28:43>> Incredibly good company. There are
1:28:45millions and millions of people around
1:28:46the planet going through their own
1:28:47version of a lonely chapter trying to
1:28:50outstrip the environment, the the local
1:28:53cultural norms that they grew up in
1:28:55where people are born, live and die
1:28:57within the same radius, but that's not
1:28:59what they feel is right for them. Or
1:29:01these people that have a particular
1:29:02worldview or religious belief or
1:29:04cultural perspective or whatever. Like
1:29:06all of these people
1:29:09like they're not going to go with you.
1:29:11So, do you want to stay or do you want
1:29:12to keep pushing through? And it's I love
1:29:15this idea of mundane successes and
1:29:17boring victories. So it's like you know
1:29:19we think that we sort of arrive on stage
1:29:22having just completed something that's
1:29:24grand to fanfare and accolade
1:29:27>> but a lot of the time it's much more
1:29:29private than that. It's so much more
1:29:31about like [ __ ] like I lost 10 pounds.
1:29:35>> I lost 10 pounds and no one supported me
1:29:38for celebrating that picture. No one.
1:29:40It's like it's so small it almost feels
1:29:42like
1:29:44>> uh dimminionative or or like shameful to
1:29:47celebrate it
1:29:48>> like I I did 30 days without smoking
1:29:51>> and to you that was that was the deal
1:29:54like yes and and yes that's the pebble
1:29:56at the top of the avalanche that's like
1:29:58oh I can do things
1:29:59>> [ __ ] I can do things
1:30:01>> I'm going to fix that relationship with
1:30:03my mom
1:30:04>> like she doesn't think I don't we
1:30:05haven't spoken for 18 months and I'm
1:30:07going to fix that relationship with my
1:30:08mom and then you do And it's like who is
1:30:10congratulating you for fixing the
1:30:13relationship or beating your
1:30:14materialism? Like something like really
1:30:16that's typically shameful and seems like
1:30:18a a luxury problem. It's like oh I shop
1:30:20too much. Like when I when I have spare
1:30:22money I shop too much and like that's
1:30:24that's your release or whatever. And you
1:30:27beat it.
1:30:28>> There's no applause.
1:30:29>> No one is going to congrat. It's so
1:30:31normal. No one can even think about
1:30:35that as like a dude there's people that
1:30:37are starving on the street or that have
1:30:39got this problem and got oh you're sorry
1:30:40you didn't go and buy yourself a new
1:30:42dress for
1:30:42>> six your problems are still your
1:30:43problems though right like that's
1:30:45>> yeah you know that's
1:30:47>> it's just I love that idea of of boring
1:30:49victories mundane successes and I think
1:30:51that we should all
1:30:52>> we should lower the threshold for what
1:30:54constitutes something celebrationw
1:30:56worthy uh like internally and be like I
1:31:00[ __ ] did it
1:31:01>> like me and Luke got up morning and we
1:31:02went and I wanted to cycle Central Park
1:31:05is one of my favorite things to do when
1:31:06I'm in New York. Got up, nabbed an ebike
1:31:09and did, you know, 10 miles or whatever
1:31:12from the bottom of Manhattan up through
1:31:13Central Park and back down
1:31:15>> on an ebike though.
1:31:16>> On an ebike. That's true. But still,
1:31:18give me give me a break. I had four
1:31:19hours sleep yesterday. I was on a plane
1:31:21from New York. I was like such a lovely
1:31:24morning, but when I woke up, it felt
1:31:25like dragging a dead body out of a lake.
1:31:27I'm like, "All right, h my god." And I
1:31:30could have texted him and said, "Let's
1:31:31go back to bed." But I know there is
1:31:33this little bit of me that's like, "Yes,
1:31:35like I got to win the day." Yeah, I got
1:31:37to win the day. And the do the hard
1:31:39thing and like the it's reinforcing the
1:31:41anterior mids singular cortex to like
1:31:43teach you that you can do difficult all
1:31:45the rest of it. But like more than that,
1:31:46it was just like
1:31:47>> there was something in front of me that
1:31:49I could have easily said no to.
1:31:52>> Like the the devil this morning offered
1:31:54me a fist bump and like I gave him a
1:31:56different signal.
1:31:56>> Yeah.
1:31:56>> I'm like, "All right, that's cool." Like
1:31:58I just and now the rest of my day is
1:32:00like, huh? Yeah, I'm kind of the man.
1:32:02>> Those little wins are important.
1:32:04>> Yes. Boring victories. Yes,
1:32:06>> Chris, I'm mindful of time. I know
1:32:08you're extremely busy. There's so much
1:32:10more I want to ask you.
1:32:11>> Run it back. Let's do it again next
1:32:12time.
1:32:12>> Um, wait, I'm not finished yet.
1:32:14>> That wasn't yours cue to go. Um, there's
1:32:16two more things I want to talk to you
1:32:18about. One is this shift that you have
1:32:20made to the different side of the table
1:32:23now with
1:32:25entrepreneurship. I know running a
1:32:27podcast, launching a brand is very much
1:32:31synonymous with startup life,
1:32:33>> correct? Yeah.
1:32:34>> But now, you know, you're raising
1:32:36capital,
1:32:37talking about distribution and SKUs and
1:32:40a whole different language all together.
1:32:42How's that been that shift been for you?
1:32:44And by the way, huge congrats.
1:32:46>> Thank you very much. Smashing
1:32:48>> it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so I ran nightclubs
1:32:51for a long time which uh served a
1:32:54particular type of liquid and now I run
1:32:55a evidence-based neutropic smarter
1:32:58energy drink uh which gives people a
1:33:00different another different type of
1:33:02liquid. Uh I love it. I I've always
1:33:04considered myself a businessman ever
1:33:06since I've been an adult because I was
1:33:07from the age of 18 my first ever seminar
1:33:09I sat down next to someone and was like
1:33:11I'm skinned. I think I might be [ __ ]
1:33:13And he was like do you want to come and
1:33:14hand out flyers for this nightclub?
1:33:16>> Cool.
1:33:16>> Sold. did that and was like, I'm I'm
1:33:19good at this. There was progress, you
1:33:21know, it was it was very linear. If you
1:33:22work hard at a thing and you become
1:33:23diligent, you learn how it works, you
1:33:25can get better. And I love I've always
1:33:28loved brand. I'm very good with words.
1:33:30It's one of the things that I've
1:33:31actually been gifted with. I'm not bad
1:33:32with language. I'm like, "Okay, when it
1:33:34comes to the copy on the side of the
1:33:36can, when it comes to the particular
1:33:38tagline that we're going to launch as we
1:33:39go into Walmart or Target or CVS or
1:33:44Sainsburries in the UK or there's this
1:33:46Subway ad or there's a new trend that's
1:33:47happening or our next Black Friday
1:33:48thing, I [ __ ] love it." And there's
1:33:50certain things I don't want to do. I
1:33:51don't want to deal with logistics. I'm
1:33:53sorry. I don't want to see the finances.
1:33:54The CFO is amazing. Uh, I don't want to
1:33:56do recruitment and HR. Like, I'm not
1:33:58good at hiring and firing. That's not my
1:34:00bag. put me in front of a blanking
1:34:02cursor and tell me to come up with some
1:34:03pathy captions. I'll rip that all day.
1:34:05Tell me to look at a can design and tell
1:34:07you about what I think needs to change
1:34:08aesthetically to give off a particular
1:34:11uh trend, a particular theme. So, loving
1:34:13it, like really really loving it. I
1:34:15think we've got just such a wonderful
1:34:17brand with this eyeball. Um we're on the
1:34:20Aix Racing Formula 2 and Formula 3 cars
1:34:22for the rest of the year, which means
1:34:24like this big eyeball. We got P2 at uh
1:34:27not Monza at the Madrid F1 last weekend
1:34:31at Monza. We came P4 in the F3. It's
1:34:33like this is S. The brand like the
1:34:35eyeball that me and my friends, my idiot
1:34:38friends came up with four years ago is
1:34:41on the side of a car racing around
1:34:43Monza. Unreal. And yeah, now we're
1:34:46talking to the biggest distributors and
1:34:48retailers in America. Like I'm going to
1:34:51go and speak at a very very very large
1:34:56supermarket chain head office meeting
1:34:58with like 3,000 store store store
1:35:02managers are going to be there. I'm like
1:35:04this is sick. And I'm not there as this
1:35:06is Chris Williamson who like said some
1:35:07stuff on the internet in a British
1:35:08accent and isn't he cool? I'm there
1:35:10because we made a brand from scratch
1:35:14that is seen by people who supposedly
1:35:17know what they're doing as actually
1:35:18pretty good. M
1:35:19>> I got to meet the uh uh is it Ron the
1:35:22CEO of Costco? The guy he started off as
1:35:24a janitor and worked his way up every
1:35:27single bit. I think his salary annually
1:35:30is like hund00 million and he donates
1:35:3295% of it back into the employee pool.
1:35:35Um, just like I'm meeting really cool
1:35:37people that I respect now in a different
1:35:39world and I'm getting to sit down and
1:35:42have meetings with like Jeffrey
1:35:44Katzenberg's come on my podcast as a
1:35:46guest,
1:35:47>> but now I get to talk to him about
1:35:48something else. I get to talk to him
1:35:49about, you know, what's happening with
1:35:50the trends in the energy drink and the
1:35:53like adaptogen market. Like, huh, well,
1:35:55this is fun and respected for another
1:35:57reason. And it's a new challenge. The
1:35:59same as doing the live show. Like we w
1:36:01we went into Oakbury which is this Asai
1:36:03bowl place and it's the first time I've
1:36:04ever seen one of our cans in New York
1:36:06and I felt emotional. I took a video of
1:36:08it and it's so silly. What a boring
1:36:09victory. What a mundane success. You saw
1:36:11your can
1:36:13like it's this is something that
1:36:15>> and I love this so much about
1:36:17entrepreneurs and founders and scrappy
1:36:18startups is like you make this thing out
1:36:21of nothing and then it's something
1:36:23>> right and then you get to be proud of it
1:36:25and then you get to share it with
1:36:26everyone else. When you can stand behind
1:36:28the science, when you can stand behind
1:36:29the people involved in the brand,
1:36:31there's nothing better.
1:36:32>> And I've reviewed 100page formulation
1:36:34decks looking at every different
1:36:35compound and adaptogen that we could use
1:36:37to improve cognitive health. And we've
1:36:38dropped it down to these ones,
1:36:40regardless of how expensive it is,
1:36:41regardless of how hard it is to cover
1:36:43the bitterness profile. And then you get
1:36:44to the point where you're in Midtown
1:36:46Manhattan on 35th Street in an Oakbury
1:36:48going, "That's my can." And then someone
1:36:50on the internet will go, "Must be nice."
1:36:53You're like, "Yeah, overnight. All
1:36:54right. All right. I give up. I give up.
1:36:56I give up.
1:36:57>> Chris, I'm going to ask you to finish to
1:36:59answer some audience questions.
1:37:01Wonderful. How do you feel about that?
1:37:02>> Exciting. They're printed on card.
1:37:03>> I have not. There's a lot of them.
1:37:06>> I don't have card.
1:37:07>> No,
1:37:09it's a quick rejection.
1:37:10>> You've done over a thousand of these.
1:37:12What's the first thing you notice about
1:37:14a guest in the first 60 seconds?
1:37:16>> Oh, that's a wonderful question. I've
1:37:17never been asked that before.
1:37:18Congratulations to whoever said that.
1:37:21What is the first thing I notice? I'll
1:37:23have listened to them already. So
1:37:25speaking cadence will be the first
1:37:27thing.
1:37:27>> After that probably notice their body
1:37:30language and it's not like something
1:37:31conscious. I'm I'm just like in the
1:37:33moment. But there's certainly some
1:37:34people that just sit down and they're so
1:37:36comfortable and they're like you know
1:37:38and then there's other people that are a
1:37:39bit more tense and sometimes that can
1:37:41make me feel a little tense and it's my
1:37:43job as the host to be like okay I'm
1:37:45going to just mass I'm going a little
1:37:47giggle like some crap joke like try and
1:37:50just ease them in a little bit. So like
1:37:51where where are their eyes looking?
1:37:53What's their body language like? And
1:37:54again, it's not I'm not consciously
1:37:55doing this. You do that when you sit
1:37:57down with somebody at a coffee shop or
1:37:58whatever. But now I'm like, I'm trying
1:38:00to get something out of them, which is
1:38:01like I want you to be comfortable and I
1:38:02want you to like rock. I want you to
1:38:04absolutely rock today. Okay. How do I
1:38:06make that happen?
1:38:06>> Do you ever get nervous in your podcast?
1:38:08[snorts]
1:38:08>> Rogan is the final boss of my social
1:38:10anxiety. He's the one. He's still the
1:38:13one that makes my bum hole do this.
1:38:15>> Um that that's
1:38:17>> because you're nervous.
1:38:18>> Because I'm nervous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:38:19Yeah. It's it's not an advertisement for
1:38:21him. Um, and desperately, desperately
1:38:24trying to chill myself out. Uh, and
1:38:28>> that must be that must be weirdish for
1:38:30you. I mean, he is the the biggest
1:38:32podcaster of all time.
1:38:34>> That's why I said it was a bit weird for
1:38:35me to begin with because I was acutely
1:38:38aware when we started rolling the
1:38:39cameras that I feel like I already knew
1:38:44you
1:38:45>> because I've watched a lot of you on
1:38:48podcasts, not in just randomly.
1:38:50>> Yeah. CC,
1:38:51>> but that you have but you don't know me.
1:38:53>> Yeah.
1:38:53>> And
1:38:53>> so that was weird because all of my
1:38:54previous guests I've known.
1:38:55>> But that's a skill as well to be able to
1:38:57make someone feel like they do know you
1:38:59even though they don't.
1:39:00>> And Joe's Joe's kind of a king at that.
1:39:02>> Yeah. Ironically, I listened to your
1:39:04podcast with Andrew Hubman
1:39:06>> last night.
1:39:08>> Good.
1:39:08>> And couldn't sleep because I was up too
1:39:10late listening to it.
1:39:11>> Ah, apologies.
1:39:12>> So, thanks for that. Of everyone you've
1:39:16ever interviewed on longevity and
1:39:17performance, whose daily routine, oh
1:39:20this is harsh, would you actually never
1:39:22adopt even if the science checks out?
1:39:24>> BJ Big Brian. I lovely guy. He's a
1:39:28sweetie. We get on super well. He's a
1:39:30good friend. I just
1:39:33I can't not eat after 1 p.m. I can't do
1:39:36that many pills. I can't not have red
1:39:39meat. I don't care if my mtor is on. M
1:39:42>> I want a [ __ ] fillet steak, please.
1:39:45Thank you. With some salt on the side,
1:39:47some kosher salt. That's what I would
1:39:49like. And look, I love the fact that we
1:39:52have him as a scout going out and like,
1:39:55you know, peering over this dangerous
1:39:57precipice and doing all of this
1:39:58experimentation and then coming back and
1:40:00telling us what he learned. I'm like,
1:40:02you you you I'm going to be here with
1:40:04the sirloin and you can be
1:40:06>> let me know what you
1:40:07>> with the with the fish oil capsules.
1:40:09Yeah. What's the biggest myth in the
1:40:12longevity space?
1:40:13>> At least at the moment, there is any
1:40:15quick fix.
1:40:17Uh there is no single intervention that
1:40:21is going to do anything. I don't know
1:40:23whether this is even a myth. It's such
1:40:24it's such a cliche that I don't think
1:40:26anybody would even call it that. Another
1:40:28one would be that you can uh out
1:40:30creatine bad sleep. Like maybe you can
1:40:32get it done for a day, but I would love
1:40:34to see somebody that like newborn
1:40:36parent, new newborn child parent
1:40:39>> five, six, seven days into a really bad
1:40:42teething period. They're like, "Brother,
1:40:44just have 20 grams of creatine, you'll
1:40:46be fine.
1:40:46>> Double the dose."
1:40:47>> Yeah. No, no, it's not. It's
1:40:50>> still very I think the research is kind
1:40:52of early there as well, just for any
1:40:54cognitive improvements.
1:40:55>> Interesting. Um, I mean it makes sense
1:40:58that it would work, but I don't know if
1:41:00we have enough robust to yet.
1:41:02>> What do you think the most
1:41:03underestimated longevity?
1:41:06>> Still sleep.
1:41:07>> It's still sleep. Even though it's
1:41:08probably the one that's spoken about
1:41:10most, I think it's still the one that
1:41:12people are like, you just don't know.
1:41:14And as again, for me, doing my little
1:41:17investigation, big investigation into
1:41:19how come I'm not as rested as I might
1:41:20like. I've got my AHI index is quite
1:41:23high. I've got a lot of actctigraphy.
1:41:24Basically, I'm like shadow boxing
1:41:26somebody in my sleep and my breathing
1:41:28drops my O2 a good bit from using a
1:41:30sleep imaging
1:41:31>> and um like why is that? It's like oh
1:41:34because you your airways are like 90%
1:41:37blocked. Got 90% reduction in like nasal
1:41:40passage. It's like oh that's you'll feel
1:41:42that.
1:41:43>> That's like basically somebody like
1:41:45putting a clothes peg on your nose as
1:41:47you go to sleep. Um,
1:41:50even all of that, all all all that
1:41:52together, like sleep is still it's still
1:41:54king. It is still king. And people don't
1:41:56like to hear it because they all
1:41:57everybody knows that they don't sleep
1:41:59enough.
1:41:59>> What's one question
1:42:02you never get asked on a podcast, but
1:42:04you wish the host would ask?
1:42:07>> What
1:42:08do you think that you should be doing
1:42:10that you know that you're not?
1:42:12>> Is kind of an interesting one. Um,
1:42:17I think that it's always interesting to
1:42:19me. I love to ask authors the question,
1:42:21um, what's the insight from your book
1:42:23you think that most people gloss over,
1:42:24but they actually need to pay more
1:42:25attention to? And this is basically the
1:42:27same question about yourself. Like, what
1:42:30is it that you know that you should be
1:42:31paying more attention to, but you aren't
1:42:33doing it? And interestingly for me, I
1:42:35think the answer to that would actually
1:42:36be uh
1:42:39doing more of the middle finger thing
1:42:41that I did this morning. Like forgetting
1:42:44how I feel. I did a lot of emotions work
1:42:46for the last two years. I've like really
1:42:48tried to get below the neck. And that's
1:42:51I mean like male normative alexathyia is
1:42:54a male normative
1:42:57alexathy inability to feel emotions is a
1:42:59thing. It's so common that it's [ __ ]
1:43:01normative now among men. um or maybe
1:43:04forever it's been that way. So I dip
1:43:06into emotions and I'm like, "Oh, I'm
1:43:07gonna feel things and isn't this going
1:43:08to be interesting?" And then it means
1:43:11that when I want to try and disregard
1:43:13how I feel to go and act, I have more to
1:43:16disregard.
1:43:18>> If you're relatively numb below the
1:43:19neck, which most guys are, and I am
1:43:21still again, massively, like my my
1:43:23success has been only somewhat. Um when
1:43:26it means that you need to put how you
1:43:28feel to one side to just get stuck in
1:43:31that. Well, there's less of a burden for
1:43:34me to do. Whereas now, like, but how I
1:43:36feel about my thing. I go to and I'm not
1:43:39very skillful with it and I'm crying way
1:43:42more all the time. I just see go my if I
1:43:44open my explore page on Instagram now,
1:43:46my explore pages exclusively golden
1:43:49retriever videos that make me cry.
1:43:50>> I knew you were going to say that.
1:43:51>> [ __ ] golden retriever videos that
1:43:52make me cry. It's the whole thing. I'm
1:43:54like, why am I I can't open Instagram. I
1:43:57can't open my explore page in public
1:43:58anymore. Uh so that's that that would be
1:44:00it like get used to now now that you've
1:44:03done the
1:44:04>> move your feelings to one side and just
1:44:06work. Okay, that that comes with its own
1:44:08side dish of challenges. I'm going to
1:44:10learn to feel the thing. Okay, now you
1:44:12need to reintegrate the first lesson of
1:44:14like I'm going to get things done in an
1:44:17embodied way, you know, like kind of
1:44:19holistic way. Uh
1:44:22>> I need to relearn a lesson that I've
1:44:24already learned once but in a new in a
1:44:26new uh landscape, I suppose.
1:44:29Last question for you. Cool.
1:44:32There are so many
1:44:36hugely popular clips of you
1:44:40>> delivering
1:44:43oneliners. Yeah.
1:44:46>> What's your what's your number one quote
1:44:48of all time that's impacted your life
1:44:50the most?
1:44:52>> You two both from the same friend. The
1:44:56first one is one that you've already
1:44:57heard, which is you have already
1:44:58achieved the goals that you said would
1:44:59make you happy.
1:45:00>> And I think it's just a a really
1:45:02wonderful reminder of
1:45:06you said it would be when you got a new
1:45:08car and then your happiness faded. You
1:45:10said it would be when you got a job
1:45:11promotion and then your happiness faded.
1:45:12If not now, then when? And that's fine.
1:45:15You can literally say okay that the when
1:45:18is not now. It's at some point in
1:45:19future. But like you have to define a
1:45:22when. Uh, and the other one from Alex is
1:45:27you don't build confidence by shouting
1:45:30affirmations in the mirror, but by
1:45:31having a stack of undeniable proof that
1:45:33you are who you say you are.
1:45:35>> Outwork your self-doubt.
1:45:38>> Outwork your self-doubt. Like I'm the
1:45:40poster child for imposter syndrome.
1:45:42Again, you know, come from a background
1:45:44that I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't
1:45:45be, and maybe you shouldn't either.
1:45:47Maybe everyone in this room shouldn't
1:45:48like agree. shouldn't be in the middle
1:45:49of Manhattan like talking about building
1:45:51a billion dollar drinks brand and and
1:45:53speaking to like turning down world
1:45:56leaders on my pocket. Who the who am I
1:45:58to turn these people down? Oh, like I
1:46:01just got to this stage where I the
1:46:04weight of evidence for someone who is
1:46:06very imposter syndromey
1:46:08was so great that like my identity
1:46:12dysmorphia was unable to withstand the
1:46:15like crushing volume of evidence. and
1:46:17you go, "Ah, cool." And I'm sure I'm
1:46:20still miles behind. I could be way more
1:46:21confident than I am. The American
1:46:23affliction is [ __ ] but the British
1:46:24affliction is cynicism.
1:46:26>> Um, and that means that like we could
1:46:28probably both of us afford to believe in
1:46:30ourselves a little bit more. I'm like, I
1:46:32did I did good and I I I won that that
1:46:35little battle against myself.
1:46:37>> Chris, thank you so much for for coming
1:46:39on. I'm acutely aware that you didn't
1:46:42have to and and I really appreciate you.
1:46:46You're a real pro.
1:46:46>> And I think the little boy versions of
1:46:50us would be very proud of
1:46:51>> they'd be cheering us on
1:46:52>> sitting here right now.
1:46:53>> Yeah. They think we were cool. They
1:46:55think we were cool if
1:46:56>> they think I was cool. They think I was
1:46:57cool. All right. Whatever.
1:46:58>> No, they think you were cool. Whatever.
1:46:59Whatever.
1:46:59>> They think we're both cool. That's it.
1:47:01Okay.
1:47:01>> Are we cool?

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