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"Chris Watts is a narcissist!" No, actually he isn't — Transcript

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0:07[music]
0:37[music]
0:43Hello and welcome to True Crime Rocket
0:45Science. In this episode, TCRS rubbishes
0:49the narcissism narrative.
0:52The framework of this episode comprises
0:54three areas. Number one, step-by-step
0:57dealing with three expert pundits.
1:01Number two, anchoring the narcissism
1:04narrative in the discovery, and thirdly,
1:09the TCRS assessment of
1:13the narcissism narrative and why it's
1:16not applicable to the Chris Watts case.
1:20Now, most I think have already
1:22encountered the narcissism narrative
1:25discussed all over social media.
1:27The word narcissism comes up a lot in
1:30blog comments on Crime Rocket. Uh it
1:33comes up a lot in social media. There
1:36are entire videos um
1:38focused on the topic. Um and I've
1:42um had to deal with a lot of people who
1:45who um
1:47just keep parroting this this idea of
1:50narcissism. So, in this video, we're
1:52going to talk about some some of
1:53[clears throat] the sources of this um
1:57idea.
1:58And
1:59um
2:00hopefully by the end of the video, some
2:03some minds will be
2:06rescued from the abyss.
2:08Uh I'm sure most won't be, but but uh
2:11we'll get to that in a second.
2:13Um
2:17I would like to provide short audio
2:18clips referencing some of that source
2:20material, but since this
2:22episode is about discrediting them, um
2:25I'm not going to put this video up with
2:28a
2:29um What's the word?
2:31With a risk of it being
2:34um
2:35taken down, so I'm not going to provide
2:38any audio references in here. What I
2:40will do is I'll provide a link to
2:44the source material, other videos that
2:46that deal with a
2:47narcissism narrative. I'm sure you've
2:49seen them before, but in case you
2:50haven't, you can refer to them. Some of
2:52them are quite short.
2:54Um but it might be good to to refresh
2:57your memory on why perhaps you feel so
3:00strongly that the narcissism narrative
3:02is true and why you agreed with it to
3:05begin with.
3:06Um
3:09I've been itching to get to this part uh
3:12for a long time. Um I've really been
3:14irritated by the label. Um
3:18I've I often respond when people bring
3:20up words like narcissism, sociopath,
3:23psychopath, monster, evil.
3:26My sort of default response to that is
3:29I'm allergic to to labels. Um uh true
3:32crime isn't that reductionist and it's
3:34not that simplistic and it shouldn't be.
3:36Um as soon as you reduce a criminal to a
3:40word, um you better make sure that word
3:43is is um
3:44appropriate. And in this case, it isn't.
3:47And as soon as you do that, you
3:50misappropriate a word, you send an
3:52entire swathe of
3:55uh followers down the wrong rabbit
3:58rabbit hole, and that's what happened.
4:00That is what has happened here.
4:02Um you have an interesting scenario with
4:04the Watts case where people claim that
4:06they don't understand Chris Watts. They
4:08don't understand why he did what he did.
4:12Um
4:13they don't understand the motive and so
4:15on and so on and so on. And then, on the
4:18flip side of that coin, they say he's a
4:20narcissist. They don't see the link
4:22between their inability to explain
4:25um Chris Watts and how he thinks and his
4:28psychology and
4:30everything and the
4:34narcissism narrative. They don't see a
4:36link between the two. Well, there is a
4:39link. You can't explain it because your
4:42narcissism narrative doesn't apply.
4:45That's why you can't.
4:48Uh don't take my word for it, though. Um
4:51through the course of this video, we'll
4:52explain why it doesn't apply. And we'll
4:56use the discovery to explain that, and
4:59we'll
5:00take on some of the pundits first hand
5:02and explain why some of their
5:04contentions don't make any sense when
5:06you think about it. And that's quite
5:08important. You do need to think about
5:09it. You need to think about it
5:11logically, scientifically, and sensibly,
5:15right?
5:17Um
5:19as much as I've been itching to deal
5:21with this, I realize one's got to deal
5:23with it in a to some extent sensitive
5:26way, but in another sense, a almost
5:29aggressive way. I think it is important
5:31to root out the loudmouths and the
5:35opinionated
5:37idiots who have been
5:39um
5:41uh
5:42pushing this narrative. So,
5:44um if this rubs you the wrong way,
5:47that's intentional.
5:48Uh there's some people who maybe aren't
5:51sure um and and this is really for them.
5:54It's for for intelligent people who have
5:57been kind of misled by listening to the
6:01media and listening to some of these
6:02YouTube videos.
6:05Um so, I'm confident that that this
6:08episode's going to rub the majority
6:11following this case and and perhaps even
6:13the majority listening to this video the
6:15wrong way. That's good. That's
6:17intentional. I want to drive a wedge
6:20between the discerning true crime
6:22followers and the mindless mob. And I
6:25want to be very clear. I want you to
6:28choose which side you're on. I want you
6:30to
6:32make a choice. And um this this video is
6:35going to be an educated choice where you
6:37decide to continue um taking the red
6:41pill or the blue pill. Uh
6:43but you are going to choose one pill or
6:46the other. And then you must stay there.
6:48You must stay there, and that's fine.
6:51So, an expert like Dr. Phil tells you
6:53Watts is a narcissist, and then you head
6:56to your nearest echo chamber and repeat
6:58and recycle the nonsense. You know abso-
7:01with absolute certainty that Watts is a
7:03narcissist because Dr. Phil told you.
7:06And Dr. Phil couldn't be wrong, could
7:07he?
7:09And it feels good, doesn't it? One word
7:11becomes your fortress of information.
7:13One word becomes your justification.
7:16One word bec- becomes your
7:18uh sort of foolproof answer to this
7:21whole complicated saga. You've got your
7:23answer, and um
7:26you Yeah, you you you're one of the few
7:28that are informed, except you're in the
7:30majority that are all saying the same
7:32thing.
7:33What you're really doing is you're
7:35transferring your own innocence and
7:37getting a satisfying sense of victimhood
7:40using this particular term.
7:42As I've said before, the Chris Watts
7:44case isn't about you. There was a time,
7:47by the way, before the murders where the
7:49Watts family went about their business
7:52irrespective of you, ignorant of you,
7:54and not influenced by you. There was a
7:56time when the Watts family were
7:59living in Colorado, also even living in
8:02North Carolina, and they didn't know
8:05that you existed. You also didn't know
8:07they existed, and they went about their
8:09lives with quiet confidence, right?
8:14Afterwards, after the murders um
8:19became um
8:20high profile and they made it into the
8:22media,
8:23suddenly the Watts case is all about
8:26you. It's It's not.
8:29The Watts case isn't about you. The
8:31Watts case is about what happened to the
8:34Watts family.
8:37It's about those people who died.
8:42These aren't characters
8:44in a story. They aren't characters in
8:46some kind of fiction.
8:48They're real people. They're real people
8:50with distinct identities and identities
8:54distinct from yours
8:56and mine as well, right?
8:59Let them be who they are. Let them show
9:02who they are through their words and
9:04actions. Don't let who you are or your
9:08situation or your experience with an
9:10ex-husband or an ex-boyfriend or
9:13something from your past cloud what you
9:16are seeing in this case. In the majority
9:19of people following this case, that is
9:21exactly what is happening. You're not
9:23looking at the Chris Watts case as the
9:25Chris Watts case. You're looking at the
9:27Chris Watts case as projecting your own
9:31issues and your own attitudes to family
9:35and to relationships and to how men
9:38treat women and women treat men and
9:40control issues. You're You're projecting
9:42and transferring all of that into this
9:44case and getting some kind of uh feeling
9:47of justification from that. That's not
9:50True Crime Rocket Science. That's not
9:51even true crime.
9:53In true crime, you investigate the case.
9:55You don't avoid your heuristically
9:58experience
10:00these people as
10:02entertainment or characters in some kind
10:04of
10:05soapy, right?
10:08Um
10:10True Crime Rocket Science isn't here to
10:12win popularity contest or do fake PR to
10:16get traffic or sell books.
10:19True Crime Rocket Science is here to
10:21shine a light on cases that inexplicably
10:26people just fail to understand.
10:29Cases that inexplicably
10:31seem to defeat even the experts. The
10:33experts go on television and they
10:35pontificate about
10:37um things like motive and so on and then
10:40the audience then runs with that
10:43pontification.
10:45And
10:46a lot of these experts that go on
10:48television are experts on dozens of
10:52cases at the same time and they don't
10:54spend a lot of time studying any one's
10:56particular case. They're too busy
10:58jumping fluttering about like
11:00butterflies from the one show to the
11:02next discussing the one to the other.
11:05And the difference between all of those
11:07people and there are hordes of them.
11:09They're hordes of experts, they're
11:11hordes of pundits, they're hordes of
11:13journalists, they're hordes of
11:15YouTubers, etc. Um the difference
11:18between them and someone who writes a
11:20narrative is that someone who writes a
11:22narrative literally spends an entire day
11:25studying one particular case and then
11:29the next day continue studying that
11:32particular case and the next day and the
11:34next day and the next day and then you
11:36eventually write a book and you write
11:38hundreds of blogs all about one case.
11:42And and over a period of a year maybe
11:44you've written nine books and again
11:47hundreds and hundreds of blogs. What's
11:49the difference between that particular
11:51methodology and everyone else? Everyone
11:54else is what during the same period
11:56jumping to lots of different cases. Oh,
11:59that case has caught my attention. I
12:01think he's a sociopath. Oh, that case
12:03that's really interesting. I think he's
12:05a narcissist. Um what differentiates
12:09True Crime Rocket Science from these
12:10others is the time spent
12:13studying meticulously and systematically
12:16studying these cases and over long
12:18period of time you become an expert at
12:20one case
12:22and after a long period of time you then
12:24move to another case.
12:26And then you notice intertextuality
12:28between the two.
12:30And
12:32the
12:32uh
12:34the bottom line with what we trying to
12:36do is create an authentic narrative.
12:41George Orwell once wrote, "In times of
12:44universal deceit, telling the truth is a
12:47revolutionary act." George Orwell is the
12:50author of Animal Farm. Um not sure who
12:54who of you
12:55read Animal Farm, but it's a sort of a
12:57story where
12:59most of the animals are deceived, right?
13:04Um
13:06Animal Farm is social media in the world
13:08right now. We are in times of universal
13:12deceit and telling the truth is a
13:15revolutionary act right now.
13:20In terms of the Chris Watts case, there
13:22are a lot of farm animals following this
13:25case.
13:27And TCRS is is for a more intelligent
13:31audience.
13:32Um
13:34There are intelligent people who believe
13:36in the narcissism myth. They're
13:38university educated people who believe
13:41in the narcissism myth.
13:43And so what we're going to try and do in
13:44this episode is appeal to those people.
13:48I'm not really trying to appeal to the
13:50the dummies and the idiots. I'm trying
13:52to appeal to the smarter people who can
13:55think for themselves and who can
13:57take a hypothesis and consider it and
14:00I'm trying to get them to think about
14:02something in a different way.
14:05Um
14:07It's obviously understandable that not
14:09everyone has the amount of time to study
14:12a case um or write about a case as much
14:15as I have and so that's a service I
14:18provide and
14:20obviously
14:23for the first time in some people's
14:25cases you're getting a expert view of
14:28the the Watts case. And when I say
14:30expert, I simply mean a view based on an
14:34extended um time studying this case more
14:38than anybody else. I think I can say
14:40that with with confidence is that I've
14:43covered this case more than anybody else
14:46including the investigators, including
14:48the lawyers, including any other media
14:52reporter.
14:54Um
14:58Which means you can sort of pick off the
15:02most important details almost off the
15:04top of one's head because you've got
15:05such um
15:08you've got such a voluminous
15:11um
15:11understanding of the case that you can
15:13just it's like off the top of your head.
15:16And so
15:17um let's look at the
15:19references to the word narcissism in the
15:22discovery documents. Now, I'm not sure
15:24whether people have ever thought about
15:27that. You know, have you thought about
15:29what do the people in this case
15:31themselves say about narcissism? Isn't
15:35that maybe a good place to start to to
15:37anchor the narrative, to root the
15:39narrative. What do the people in the
15:41Watts case say about this whole
15:43narcissism thing?
15:45Right? So, if you go to page 606 of the
15:47discovery documents, you have
15:50um
15:52Chris's father during an interrogation
15:56saying that he believed that Chris's
15:58mother believed Shannan was unstable, a
16:01narcissist, and bipolar. That's
16:04That's the first of the two references.
16:08Now, let's look at that scenario just
16:10for a few moments on its own terms.
16:13Ronnie isn't saying Shannan is a
16:16narcissist.
16:17Chris Watts isn't saying Shannan is a
16:20narcissist.
16:21Right?
16:24You have You don't even have them saying
16:27on their own
16:30kind of platform to the police,
16:33"I think this person's a narcissist."
16:35Right? You don't even have that. What
16:37you have is
16:39um
16:41a scenario where
16:43Chris Watts is facing a serious charge.
16:47The
16:50scenario has been presented to him that
16:51maybe Shannan killed the children. Chris
16:54Watts has mischievously taken that bait
16:57and he's basically lied to his father
16:59and the police saying, "Yes,
17:01Shannan did do this." Right? And you
17:05say, "Well, what's the narcissism in
17:07that?" Yeah, it's self-preservation. Is
17:09that narcissism or would anybody
17:12try and find a way not to be not to
17:15spend the rest of their lives in jail.
17:17I'm talking about anybody anybody in a
17:21Anybody would try to preserve their
17:25um survival and their happiness. Is that
17:28narcissism?
17:32If we deal with it on its own terms, we
17:34see that what's actually happening here
17:37is it's Chris's mother who believed
17:39Shannan was not a narcissist, right?
17:43And
17:45we know where that sort of came from.
17:48You know, there's a conflagration
17:49between Cindy Watts and Shannan Watts,
17:53right? We know there's a
17:56there was a kind of a alter
17:58a violent verbal altercation between
18:01um Chris's mother and
18:05Shannan.
18:07And
18:08obviously when
18:11Shannan left, Cindy would have said
18:14something to her husband about what she
18:16thought of Shannan. And one of the
18:18name-calling words would be that Shannan
18:20was unstable or that that Shannan is a
18:23narcissist that Shannan
18:25is bipolar, whatever. And I think that's
18:28quite important to bear in mind here is
18:30that this whole idea of name-calling.
18:32You don't like someone, you someone sort
18:34of insists on their way and you call
18:36them a narcissist, right?
18:40Um the second reference is on page 631
18:43of the discovery documents and this time
18:46it's Shannan using the word, right? And
18:51in
18:56in August on the 5th of August,
18:59uh roughly a month after Nutgate,
19:02um Shannan I believe is communicating
19:04with Cassie Rosenberg and in the message
19:07she to her she says she won't change a
19:10thing
19:11about herself.
19:14So, it's kind of in a situation where
19:17Shannan's talking about
19:20Nutgate and
19:23difficulties with with with her husband
19:25and she's saying to her friend she's not
19:27going to change a thing.
19:30She thinks of herself as a saint for not
19:33telling his mother
19:35that she's a narcissist stupid [ __ ]
19:37And she just said that they were done
19:40and never coming back. So, Shannan's
19:42sort of telling Cassie that
19:45she will not change anything about
19:47herself and she thinks of herself as a
19:50saint and especially because she didn't
19:53tell Cindy that she's a narcissist
19:55stupid [ __ ] and blah blah blah blah
19:58blah. So, um here is Shannan directly
20:02telling
20:03one of her friends what she thinks of
20:05Chris Watts's mother. And so, you have a
20:07situation where Cindy's calling
20:11um
20:14Shannan a narcissist and Shannan's
20:16calling
20:17Cindy a narcissist and they're both
20:20doing it behind one another's backs. So,
20:22you don't have a case where
20:25as far as we know, you don't have a case
20:27where either of them are saying
20:29I don't like you, you're a narcissist.
20:31Both of them are doing it indirectly.
20:34Right? To someone else.
20:41And those are the only references in the
20:44discovery documents. There's nothing
20:45about that from Chris Watts. Um there's
20:49nothing about that from Nicole
20:52Kissinger. There's nothing about that
20:54from
20:56any of the other people.
20:58The only other term that starts to go
21:00into that area of psychology, if you
21:02want to put it that way, is OCD. And we
21:05know that Shannan owned that term. We
21:07know that her parents thought of her
21:09that way. We know her husband thought of
21:11her that way. So, if you want to talk
21:13about psychology
21:16in a way that's grounded in the
21:19fabric of this case and talk about
21:20obsessive-compulsive disorder and talk
21:23about what impact that may have had.
21:26In any event, that's not what we're
21:27going to do here. We will touch on it
21:29again towards the end of this episode,
21:31but um
21:33this is about debunking the whole
21:34narcissism nonsense. And so, the bottom
21:38line is it's referred to twice in the
21:41discovery and you can see the
21:43emotionally charged
21:46scenario in which it comes up. It's
21:48someone's very unhappy with someone else
21:50and so the person's a narcissist. What
21:52you actually have is is two people
21:54calling each other a narcissist.
21:57Which one is the narcissist? Maybe
22:00they're both narcissists. Maybe neither
22:02are.
22:03But um
22:04there's something kind of silly and
22:08um unscientific about
22:10these references. Right? It's two women
22:14that are upset with each other calling
22:16each other names. That's that's
22:17basically the bottom line.
22:19And I think that same childishness um
22:22extends to the people pontificating
22:25about this case calling Chris Watts a
22:27narcissist. It's just kindergarten 101
22:31um
22:32uh psychological analysis. It's
22:35it's um it's not it's not rocket science
22:38by any stretch. It's not even it's not
22:40even beginning to understand these
22:43people.
22:46Uh uh but it is the beginning of
22:48misunderstanding them.
22:49Now,
22:51where did this
22:53come from? Where where did this false
22:56narrative come from?
22:59Uh let's start with
23:02with number one, um
23:04Steve Rin, the Deputy District Attorney
23:07for Weld County.
23:09Now, it definitely didn't start with
23:10him, but he was one of the figureheads
23:13who said the following. He said I do
23:16agree that this crime can only be
23:19committed by a sociopath. There's no
23:21other possible explanation.
23:24And this is something that
23:25uh Steve Rin
23:27said during
23:30the documentary Family Man, Family
23:32Murderer. And that came out relatively
23:34recently, so it's it's obviously not Rin
23:37who
23:39started this term and he doesn't even
23:41use the term narcissist. He uses uses
23:44the term sociopath.
23:46Um
23:48that's another kettle of fish
23:49altogether.
23:51Um sociopathy, I don't think applies
23:53either, but it's interesting that that
23:56he's used this term. It also sounds as
23:58if he's been fed the term by someone.
24:00So, he says, "I do agree that this crime
24:03can only be committed by a sociopath."
24:05Well, who's he agreeing with? Someone
24:07said to him something and then he's
24:09agreed with it. So, it sounds like
24:11someone's offered him that that term and
24:13he's
24:14acquiescing to that term.
24:16Um
24:20It's interesting also that Rin says
24:22there's no other possible explanation.
24:24And I find that interesting because he's
24:26in a unique position where he's
24:30he was there when Watts was
24:32interrogated. He talks about how
24:33frustrated he was that they couldn't get
24:35to the truth. He was in the thick of
24:38things. And so, if there's anyone who
24:40should know this case backwards, back to
24:43front and you know, backwards and
24:45forwards, it's him. And then he says,
24:48"Well, there's no other explanation for
24:49why this crime happened except that
24:51Watts is a sociopath."
24:53It would be
24:54very useful, I think, to test Watts for
24:57that.
24:59But um
25:00True Crime Rocket Science will be the
25:02first to say there are explanations.
25:06And where
25:08Steve Rin says there's no other possible
25:10explanation, actually there are quite a
25:13few possible explanations.
25:16Um I don't want to conflate idea that
25:18there are quite a few
25:20with the idea that well, there's that
25:23there are few possibilities, we're not
25:25quite sure which. There's
25:28there's one explanation that explains
25:30everything very very well.
25:33Um
25:35and just as as Rin is confident to say
25:38there's that there's definitely no other
25:40possible explanation,
25:42I don't want to be that confident to say
25:44there absolutely is an explanation. I
25:47think it's important to stay a little
25:49bit humble and modest and say, "Well,
25:51maybe we don't know everything here.
25:53Maybe there's something else that could
25:56enhance our knowledge." So, when I say
25:58there is a specific explanation, it's
26:00based on what we think we know. I don't
26:03I don't think one can ever say we
26:05absolutely know everything.
26:07I think the um
26:09I think the biggest culprit in spreading
26:12the
26:13narcissism narrative is Dr. Phil.
26:17Dr. Phil sort of prides himself on being
26:20a celebrity psychologist and so people
26:23get their psychology
26:27psychobabble from him.
26:29And I'm a fan of Dr. Phil. I thought he
26:32was great on on Oprah and you know, Tell
26:34It Like It Is, Dr. Phil, etc. And he's
26:37an intelligent guy and he mostly
26:42he often makes sense. Right?
26:45In terms of this case, Dr. Phil has said
26:47that you can't make sense out of
26:49nonsense. He's basically saying that
26:52that yes, this case doesn't there's no
26:55there's no explanation for this case,
26:57which which I disagree with. And he he's
26:59also a major proponent that Chris Watts,
27:03if not the the most major
27:05proponent
27:07of the um fallacy that Chris Watts is a
27:10malignant narcissist and a narcissist.
27:14Dr. Phil was one of the first to sort of
27:17assess Chris Watts's behavior and
27:21showed all the whole lie lie sporting
27:23things and said, "Well, you know,
27:26uh a narcissist can can only see things
27:28from his perspective and that this is
27:30why Chris Watts made so many dumb
27:32mistakes." In any event, we'll deal with
27:34Dr. Phil um in a moment in more detail.
27:38But um the whole narcissism
27:42narrative amongst the masses, I believe,
27:45comes from him.
27:52The third um
27:54let's call it personality
27:58is a YouTuber whose identifying avatar
28:01is about how to live free of abuse.
28:05And I want to deal with this particular
28:09person first. I'm not going to mention
28:12her name because she'll
28:14probably think it's some kind of
28:15personal attack.
28:17And what this is is trying to understand
28:21the psychology of the the Chris Watts
28:22case by discrediting
28:25the um narcissism narrative. I'm not
28:28trying to discredit these people. I'm
28:31trying to discredit what they're saying
28:33about the Chris Watts case. So, let's
28:35not try and get personal about it. Um
28:38but let's also face it, if you're out
28:41there spreading
28:43um this kind of information, which I
28:45believe is misinformation,
28:48then you're doing a disservice
28:51to society and to other people. And what
28:54you're doing is you're also just
28:55transferring your own feelings onto
28:57everything else and worse,
29:00getting other people to do the same.
29:02And for me, that's a serious problem.
29:05You know, as a
29:06as a writer of books, I want to be
29:08careful that I don't
29:10um
29:12put into my narratives my own bias and
29:15my issues and my
29:18weaknesses and whatever it is. And and
29:21that and that and that thing weakens the
29:23minds of other people and makes people
29:26In other words, you don't want to
29:29um contaminate other people with your
29:33issues. You want to au- authenticate
29:36people with your authenticity.
29:39You want to au-
29:41uh authenticate
29:42um
29:44a a a true crime investigation
29:46with the truth, not with your own
29:49[ __ ] right?
29:50So, um
29:54this particular YouTuber is one of those
29:57people I mentioned that's very well
29:59educated. She has a
30:00uh
30:01Bachelor of Science honors in psychology
30:04and a postgraduate degree in counseling
30:06psychology.
30:07And she's done extensive research on
30:10narcissism and the effects of
30:11narcissistic abuse.
30:13So,
30:15um this is really who she is. She's
30:17really made it almost like your life's
30:19work.
30:20Um she's she works as a coach. That's
30:23her job, specifically with people who
30:25have experienced narcissistic abuse. So,
30:28this is literally narcissism is her
30:30life's work. It's how she makes a
30:32living. She she Her whole life is about
30:36um
30:37sort of ministering to people and and um
30:40dealing with this particular issue.
30:43And um the problem with that situation
30:47is when you're a hammer, everything
30:49around you is a nail. And what that
30:50means is if you some if you kind of a
30:53narcissism coach or a
30:56you've lived with you or you feel you've
30:58lived with narcissistic parent or
31:02or or you've been abused by a
31:05narcissistic partner for most of your
31:08life or
31:10in a way that is really traumatic and
31:12you take that with you wherever you go.
31:15Then then when you're a hammer,
31:17everything else every everything around
31:19you is a nail. Then it makes complete
31:21sense that when you look at the Chris
31:23Watts case, you would say
31:25everything is about narcissism.
31:34The majority um
31:36listening to this episode won't get it
31:39because
31:40and I'm just being blunt, they're too
31:42dumb.
31:44So, you know, there are a lot of people
31:46that listen to these videos and they
31:48they they're just too sort of cerebral.
31:51It doesn't have that tabloidy punchy
31:54aspect. They want they want the very
31:58sort of thin version of it. They don't
32:00really want to think about things.
32:03And um
32:05it's not my job. It's not the job of
32:08True Crime Rocket Science to change
32:10those people.
32:11Um
32:13True Crime Rocket Science isn't for you.
32:15It's um appealing to the intelligent
32:18minority to apply True Crime Rocket
32:20Science to your thinking.
32:23It's not just about True Crime. It's
32:24also about um human psychology and it's
32:27about understanding
32:29the science of man and it's something I
32:31talk about on the front page of
32:33um crimerocket.com.
32:36Is that's really what you're trying to
32:38do is you're trying to understand
32:41the human being as a
32:44as a kind of a scientific um
32:48project, if I can put it that way. You
32:50know, we use True Crime as one important
32:53um
32:54uh way of telescoping into the human
32:57condition. It's a very important aspect,
32:59certainly not the only way of doing it.
33:02But um
33:03certainly what True Crime Rocket Science
33:05does is it's unique in in um applying
33:09um that psychology to the human
33:12condition in the way that it's done via
33:14via crime.
33:16Um
33:18what um
33:20what I want the this intelligent
33:22minority that I'm that I'm addressing
33:24right now to do is think about
33:28the analysis that we're going to go into
33:30in terms of
33:31um
33:33the sort of psychological analysis and
33:35that's all. You don't have to agree,
33:38but you do have to step back for a
33:39moment and consider someone else's point
33:41of view.
33:42Incidentally, a key trait of a
33:44narcissist is someone who can't imagine
33:46or can't think about how someone else
33:48might perceive them.
33:51That's something that that Dr. Phil
33:52says. Um I'm not sure I agree with that.
33:55I'm not sure that that's the only
33:57defining trait of a narcissist. I think
33:59some people just have
34:02one-track minds. I think some people um
34:05you know, it depends
34:07how how you think about things also
34:09depends on how socialized you are. So,
34:11for example,
34:13if you're always in your own company or
34:16you surround yourself with people who
34:18only share your point of view, then then
34:20then then obviously you're going to have
34:22a kind of a tunnel vision. And social
34:25media does the same thing.
34:27If you're capable of tolerating a
34:28dissenting view, then
34:32um
34:35and you've got people around you that
34:37have dissenting views, then you you'll
34:39be generally more tolerant or
34:42able to simply consider a different
34:44view.
34:47While we're on this topic, I just wanted
34:49to talk about um
34:51people have often accused me of where
34:54they disagree with me on
34:57something, say on Facebook or on a
34:59comment or whatever it is,
35:01that I would then block them. Um
35:04I I have a problem with people who
35:07come and and and in an insulting,
35:11discrediting tone disagree. I have no
35:14problem with someone who comes in a in a
35:16in a polite, reasoned, intelligent way
35:19and say, "Well, I've I've got this
35:21information. I disagree with you and
35:24these are the reasons and based on this
35:26information." I'm very happy to have
35:28those conversations and I'm very happy
35:30to
35:31I'm very happy to be proved wrong
35:34um
35:35because
35:36if if that's the case, then our
35:38knowledge of my certainly my knowledge
35:40of what we know
35:42improves. You know, that that the
35:44leading
35:45the leading edge of of the
35:48what we know about this case then
35:50extends. And quite a good example of
35:52this is the the car. Um
35:55I thought the um
35:58car
35:59Nicole Kessinger drove was a Mitsubishi
36:02GT.
36:04And it's not. It's a
36:06Dodge Dart. And I'm going to do a blog
36:09post on that and why
36:11why the sticker I saw on um on a
36:14Facebook photo that that Nicole posted
36:16that has the Mitsubishi logo on it, why
36:19that was kind of misleading. But the
36:21point is
36:22I'm the first person to say, "Well,
36:23that's great. Now I Now we have the
36:25right information." Certainly not going
36:27to just block people cuz they disagree.
36:31Um the problem is a lot of people come
36:33disagreeing and and they use terms like
36:37garbage and badly researched and I don't
36:40really explain it. You can You can
36:42explain it in a way that's um civil and
36:46reasonable and I'm very happy to do
36:48that.
36:49Also bear in mind I'm trying to sell my
36:51books and I'm trying to promote my work.
36:54So, if you come around and basically say
36:57your
36:59work is useless. Your
37:01your um
37:03research is um
37:06it's not
37:08it's it's or it's just false.
37:10Um that doesn't reflect well on me and
37:13it's
37:15not providing the proper context. So,
37:17for example, you could say if you said
37:20something like "Hi, your um
37:23your your assessment on the car isn't
37:26right. Um I did a check and it's that
37:28and that and that." And you can show
37:30that your information is right, then it
37:33has a place. But it doesn't have a place
37:35if it comes along with insults and and
37:38undermining and all that sort of thing.
37:41Because what's also pertinent is to say,
37:43"Yes, maybe you made some mistakes. What
37:45about What about everything you got
37:47right?"
37:48And you know, let's let's let's keep a
37:50bit of um context here and manners. Um
37:54some things may be wrong, but what about
37:56what's right?
37:58Okay.
38:07So, um to get back to what Dr. Phil says
38:10about a narcissism a narcissist can't uh
38:15abide a dissenting view. Um he he can't
38:19he can't imagine a point of view besides
38:22his own. And and this was really talking
38:24about why Chris Watts thought he could
38:25get away with murder. I don't really
38:27think that's true.
38:29Um it's also why Chris Watts when he was
38:33doing his sermon on the porch, why he
38:35didn't think people would find what he
38:38was saying strange. I don't think that's
38:39got to do with narcissism. That's got to
38:41do with
38:43Watts not having much of a social game
38:45and Watts also pretending that they were
38:48still alive and trying to look like,
38:50"Well, he didn't think it was such a big
38:51deal cuz they were safe and alive
38:53somewhere else." And the same thing
38:54applies in the interrogation.
38:58Um
38:59There is an explanation for why Watts
39:01didn't show that much emotion and that
39:04is
39:05because in a premeditated murder, at
39:07some point you start preparing yourself
39:10emotionally for what you're going to do.
39:12So, the same thing happened with Scott
39:14Peterson. If these people were
39:16psychopaths,
39:18then they wouldn't need to
39:19psychologically prepare themselves
39:21emotionally. They would just commit the
39:23murders.
39:24And yet in both Scott Peterson case,
39:26which I've written a trilogy about,
39:29um the first book is called Blood and
39:31Seawater.
39:33Another one is Night Eternal and um
39:37so on. Um
39:38but the
39:41the point to bear in mind is in both
39:43those sagas you have people noticing how
39:47these people are changing that they're
39:49not the warm and affectionate Scott
39:52Peterson that they were. They it's not
39:54the
39:56um
39:59affectionate Chris Watts that he used to
40:01be. And the fact that he needs to do
40:03that means he does have a heart. He does
40:06need to steel himself for what he's
40:08about to do. He's thinking about it, but
40:11emotionally he's not sort of ready and
40:13he's
40:14trying to get himself in a place where
40:15he is ready and that's not acknowledged,
40:18right?
40:22The other aspect where you know where
40:23Dr. Phil says um they can't think about
40:26another point of view. So when when
40:28Chris Watts was having an affair, do you
40:30think he couldn't imagine what Shanann's
40:34point of view might be if he told her?
40:37He couldn't think about what her point
40:39of view might be.
40:43When Chris Watts was having the affair
40:45and he knew that Nicole Kessinger was
40:47pregnant, do you think that he wasn't
40:49aware of what she might think of that?
40:51So isn't he then thinking about her
40:53point of view?
40:58So
41:02as you um continue listening to this
41:04episode, try to set your own narcissism,
41:07your own personal bias aside for a
41:09moment and consider things from the
41:12alien perspective of TCRS.
41:18Worth plan for? [music] Yeah.
41:22Right, so let's deal with
41:24um
41:25one particular YouTuber.
41:28Um again, I'm not going to mention her
41:29name.
41:30Um I really want to deal with one
41:33specific video that she made
41:36and the message in the first couple of
41:39minutes. I didn't listen to the whole
41:41thing.
41:42Um
41:45again, this isn't a personal attack on
41:47this particular person. It's a criticism
41:51of the analysis.
41:55Um in terms of this
41:57YouTuber, um that video
42:00which is actually trying to explain the
42:05reason why Chris Watts committed the
42:06crime and and also the psychology and
42:09the motive involved. That's that's kind
42:12of the um purview of true crime. It's
42:16not really the purview of someone who
42:18works as a coach in narcissism. In any
42:22event, um it's a very popular video
42:25uh seen over well over 200,000
42:28times.
42:30And of those viewers, 3,000 liked her
42:34message and only 270
42:38that's
42:399% disagreed with what she said.
42:42I'm one of the 9% and again, this
42:46message is
42:49um
42:50directed kind of to the 9% and I guess
42:53maybe another one or two percent who who
42:56may be not so sure. It's not directed at
42:59the majority who
43:01sort of mindlessly agree with with what
43:04the experts in inverted commas say.
43:07Now, in terms of the
43:09uh comments about why did Chris Watts
43:11murder his family,
43:13the YouTuber says and I quote, "A
43:16narcissist needs to be the center of
43:18someone's world
43:20and be completely needed and adored by
43:23someone."
43:25Right? So according to this
43:28person,
43:29Chris Watts is a narcissist and he needs
43:32to be the center of someone's world. He
43:34wants to be completely needed and
43:36adored, right? So here you see Watts and
43:42when you see him in Shanann's Facebook
43:44videos,
43:46he doesn't want to be in them.
43:48Shanann is calling him and saying, you
43:51know, "Can you
43:53do this or can you say this or
43:55whatever?" And he doesn't want to be in
43:57them.
43:58But I hold another thought, he wants to
44:00be the center of someone's world.
44:02Doesn't he want to be on on her social
44:04media? Think about it when you are
44:08Think about it in terms of you and your
44:09boyfriend or you and your girlfriend. Um
44:12and and it's selfie time. You know,
44:14don't you want to be part of the selfie?
44:16Don't you want to be part of that sort
44:17of focus of attention?
44:21But Watts didn't want to be part of it.
44:23So what's going on there?
44:26Uh also, he wants to be completely
44:28needed and adored. Um
44:32if he wants to be completely needed,
44:34what why isn't he
44:36making himself available for
44:39the Facebook videos?
44:45Why doesn't he not want to make himself
44:47adored by the people that are out there?
44:50And when you see
44:52the many videos that are out there, for
44:55example, where Chris Watts is at Myrtle
44:57Beach, does he want to does it look like
45:00he wants to be the center of
45:03of attention in the video? Does it look
45:05like he he's wanting to be adored by the
45:08people watching?
45:10Um one can say, "Well, at that stage he
45:13didn't want to be part of Shanann's
45:15world." Okay.
45:16What about when she announced that she
45:19was pregnant? Did he want to be the
45:20center of her world then? He looked very
45:23uncomfortable then.
45:25Um
45:26and then and you can keep making excuses
45:28and say, "Well, well, at that stage he
45:30didn't want to." Well, at what stage did
45:32he want to be part of the photos?
45:37At what stage did he want to be part of
45:39the social media extravaganza?
45:44There's a the Christmas video which
45:46where he's in a beard and a sort of does
45:50he look like he wants to perform for the
45:51camera then?
45:57The
45:58YouTuber then goes on to say, "Things
46:01changed and
46:04Shanann really started to do well and
46:05she got a lot of friends."
46:08Um
46:09So what's missing in that little snippet
46:12of information is when things changed.
46:15And
46:16how did she start to do really well in
46:19in what? And and who were these friends
46:22that she got? Like be specific.
46:24Um the statement seems to be truthful
46:28and it seems to be accurate, but when we
46:31drill down into it a little bit, we see
46:33that Shanann started multi-level
46:35marketing
46:37um
46:37arguably full-time in January 2017.
46:43Right?
46:44So that was really when things changed a
46:47lot for the Watts family because as soon
46:50as she started doing that full-time,
46:52Shanann changed. Shanann um
46:56was constantly on social media. I think
46:59she became more extroverted.
47:01Um
47:02and it also changed the dynamic of her
47:04relationship with her husband. Uh
47:06Shanann was used to pushing and
47:08promoting and selling and um trying to
47:12encourage other Thrivers to be pushy and
47:15promoting and selling.
47:17And then and then you have your husband
47:19who's sort of a shy wallflower and she's
47:21not enjoying his reticence. She's not
47:23enjoying his
47:26unwillingness to to dance when when she
47:29wants him to dance.
47:31And so um
47:33then there's also the thing of she
47:35started to do really well. Okay, so how
47:38did Shanann start to do really well?
47:41Um does that mean she was successful
47:44financially? Does it mean she appeared
47:46in a magazine?
47:48Um does it mean she was happy?
47:51Um
47:52I'm not quite sure what she means here.
47:54Um but
47:56the
47:57there was a bankruptcy in 2015. Um I
48:00don't know what that has to do with
48:02things changing and things going really
48:05well. And she also mentions um that
48:08Shanann got a lot of friends.
48:11Um
48:16If you take the whole multi-level
48:18marketing thing away and and let's face
48:20it,
48:21in the world of multi-level marketing,
48:24you make money when you recruit when
48:26when you recruit another person to your
48:29cause.
48:30So in other words, there's an incentive
48:32in in inverted commas making friends,
48:36right?
48:37Um and what happens is
48:40when you with this whole multi-level
48:42marketing thing is everyone is selling
48:44to everyone else. So you constantly see
48:48someone offering powders or whatever and
48:51then another person is also also part of
48:53the whole Thrive thing buys that stuff
48:56because they've got to keep themselves
48:58above a certain level to get discounts.
49:00And so you have this absurd scenario
49:02where where the Thrivers are kind of
49:06buying and selling to each other and
49:08then a a few additional people kind of
49:10come on board. And and so everyone's
49:12Thri- everyone is
49:14is is sort of
49:16in a captive audience
49:19uh promoting one another, promoting
49:21themselves, and buying and selling to
49:23each other.
49:24Think about the people who own the
49:26company. Isn't this ideal? You've got
49:28people
49:29just uh you know, it's like a cult. They
49:32they just say exactly what you want them
49:34to say and they buy from each other when
49:38when they ask each other to buy from
49:40them. And
49:44and then some other people come on board
49:47and they and then they become a bigger
49:48and bigger family of people just
49:51buying and selling.
49:54And then getting these discounts and
49:55being part of the various hierarchies
49:58and systems for rewards and so on.
50:01Of course, these powders are really
50:02overpriced, but you know, we won't get
50:05get into that, but the bottom line here
50:07is
50:08Shannan had a lot of friends. If you
50:11take away the multi-level marketing
50:13aspect, so you take away the people that
50:15were associated with Shannan who were
50:18part of Thrive.
50:20That's Nicole Atkinson, gone.
50:23Kasey Rosenberg, gone.
50:26Amanda Thayer, gone.
50:28Addy
50:30Malone, gone.
50:31Christina Meacham, gone. Etc. Etc. Etc.
50:36Etc. Now, you take all those people
50:38away,
50:39the people that Shannan had business
50:41relationships with.
50:46And now they're out of the picture.
50:49Who are Shannan's friends besides those
50:51people?
50:53Name one. Like name name one person who
50:55is not involved in multi-level marketing
50:58who is a very close friend of Shannan's.
51:01Shannan has disappeared, her children
51:04have disappeared, and in fact they are
51:06dead.
51:07Who has come forward to say, "I'm
51:10Shannan's best friend. How is she?" But
51:13but they're not involved in multi-level
51:14marketing. Name one. Name one genuine
51:18friend from Shannan's past that she's
51:20she's kept a a good relationship with
51:24and and it's not based on buying things
51:27from her or selling things to her. Name
51:30one. So, who are Shannan's friends?
51:33So, this whole thing that this
51:35YouTuber is purporting is
51:38Shannan
51:40suddenly had this new lease of life
51:42where things changed, she started doing
51:44really well, and she got a lot of
51:45friends.
51:47What part of that is true?
51:57Why did why did Chris Watts want to
51:58divorce his wife if things changed, his
52:01wife was doing really well, and she had
52:03a lot of friends? Why would Watts want
52:05to divorce her or leave her or cheat on
52:07her?
52:10By contrast, if you take that same
52:11statement and you apply it to Chris
52:13Watts, you say, "Things changed, she
52:16started to do really well and and get a
52:19lot of friends, got a lot of friends."
52:21So,
52:22things did change for Chris Watts. He
52:24started losing quite a lot of weight.
52:26He also changed jobs, although slightly
52:29earlier than Shannan did.
52:31And he did fairly well. He was bringing
52:34in at least a steady income. The house
52:37was on his name. He was living in quite
52:39a big house, a too big house, but um
52:45he was basically living a
52:48um kind of a okay life compared to just
52:51being a mechanic once upon a time.
52:54Um he also seemed to have
52:58some responsibility. I I wouldn't say he
53:00was
53:01at the bottom of the food chain at
53:03Anadarko, but he he was he was he
53:06certainly had
53:07um other people that he worked with
53:11um
53:11that seemed he seemed slightly senior to
53:14some of his colleagues.
53:20He had the respect of his boss and in
53:22terms of that he had he had a kind of a
53:24community of co-workers going that
53:26wasn't based on selling powders to each
53:29other. It was based on guys working
53:31together
53:32in an industry and um he had a
53:34reputation as Rain Man, etc.
53:37In in any event, um he did fairly well
53:42at his job, I guess. He was fairly happy
53:44at his at his work. And to such an
53:47extent that
53:49a co-worker saw him and fell in love
53:52with him.
53:53He saw her and he fell in love with her.
53:55And so, things had to have been going
53:57well for that to happen. Things had to
53:59have been going well in the work space
54:01for him to recognize someone that he
54:04liked and was attracted to and vice
54:07versa.
54:09I wouldn't say Chris Watts had a lot of
54:11friends ever in his whole life, but I
54:13would I would say that he did have some
54:15genuine friends who weren't involved in
54:19multi-level marketing and who he'd been
54:21friends with for quite a long time.
54:23A handful, but they were people not not
54:26in it
54:28in the friendship to make money. They
54:29weren't part of some kind of
54:32multi-level marketing pyramid.
54:35So,
54:37um
54:39another aspect that I think isn't
54:41acknowledged by this YouTuber is
54:44the Watts marriage wasn't going well
54:46even prior to that.
54:48So, you know, we're talking about
54:50Shannan started multi-level marketing in
54:53January 2017 with Thrive. In fact, she
54:57was actually involved with many other
54:59multi-level marketing companies
55:01including Unique and LuLaRoe and and
55:04others. Prior to that, she was always
55:06involved in multi-level marketing, but
55:08she never threw herself completely into
55:11it until January 2017.
55:14Um but the way that this person
55:16describes it is she says, "A narcissist
55:19needs to be the center of someone's
55:20world, completely needed." But then
55:22things changed and Shannan started to
55:24really do well.
55:26Well,
55:27when did things change?
55:30Um when did she start to do really well?
55:33Um according to Chris Watts, their
55:34marriage wasn't going well basically the
55:37entire marriage.
55:38Um and we know for a fact that they went
55:41bankrupt in 2015.
55:43That was
55:45um
55:45three full years before the murders.
55:48And they were facing bankruptcy for a
55:51second time, which means the mar-
55:53marriage wasn't going they their
55:55marriage wasn't learning the lesson
55:56after that.
55:58So, things clearly weren't going well
56:00just financially with with these people.
56:04They were also living way beyond their
56:05means, and that's that's certainly an
56:08area where you can talk about
56:09narcissism.
56:11We can talk about why is there this need
56:13to live in this huge house and to paint
56:16the rooms, color code the rooms, and put
56:18people's names in the rooms, and and and
56:21the materialism. We can definitely talk
56:24about narcissism and the consumer.
56:29But as soon as we do that, oh no, now
56:32that might be touching on our narcissism
56:34and how do we live?
56:36And what are our credit card situations
56:38and and how do we buy things that we
56:40can't afford? Oh, we wouldn't want to do
56:42that. We wouldn't want to associate the
56:45narcissism of the Watts case with our
56:46own narcissism. It's just Chris Watts
56:49that's a narcissism. No one else is
56:51here. Right?
56:54The other aspect is that even um
56:57Shannan's parents faced severe financial
57:00difficulties to the extent that they
57:02lived with the Watts family for what was
57:04it, 15 months?
57:06That couldn't have been pleasant.
57:14Cindy was someone who liked to have her
57:17beauty sleep. She liked to sleep through
57:19the entire night.
57:20So, and and in the morning, and so it
57:23was Chris's job not to wake her up in
57:26the morning.
57:27Where does the narcissism fit into that
57:29story?
57:30And also, if you're in a situation where
57:34you married and your spouse wants her
57:37parents or his parents to to come and
57:40live with you,
57:42where does the narcissism fit into that
57:44scenario? Um
57:46is it good that that someone else's
57:49parents live with with a married couple?
57:52Um is is is narcissism a factor in that
57:56scenario?
57:57Um I mean, who are being who are the
57:59narcissists there?
58:02And in terms of the other spouse, the
58:04spouse where you know, it's the
58:06parents-in-law moving in. If they permit
58:09this to happen and go along with it,
58:11does that mean they're narcissists or
58:12that they're not narcissists?
58:16I'm just not sure how you can explain
58:18some of the actual dynamics in the
58:20actual case file in the actual archive
58:24of the story using these sort of
58:28um generic little statements like,
58:30"Things changed and she started to do
58:32really well." You need to anchor it in
58:35the actual narrative of what happened.
58:39So, then there's a
58:41another aspect where the YouTuber talks
58:44about um Watts's relationship with
58:46Nicole Kessinger, and he says he heaps
58:49love on her and
58:50and he's the full focus of their
58:52relationship. And and and this shows
58:55that he's a narcissist.
58:57Who doesn't like that? Who doesn't like
59:00um someone being in love with you or or
59:03being in love with someone else?
59:05And who isn't like that when you're in
59:07that situation? When you're in a
59:09situation of being in love, who doesn't
59:12um
59:14shower someone with affection? If it's
59:16Valentine's Day, who doesn't buy roses
59:20and and give cards and and whatnot?
59:23Does that mean you're a narcissist if on
59:25Valentine's Day you do that? And isn't
59:27Valentine's Day a day that actually um
59:32cynically
59:34um
59:35What's the word? It it
59:37um prays on the narcissism of people.
59:40Does that mean
59:42um
59:43So where is the narcissism coming from?
59:46Is it is it
59:48just the relationship between Chris
59:50Watts and Nicole Kessinger or is it are
59:53all um loving
59:55sort of in love relationships about
59:56narcissism? Well, someone loves me, I'm
1:00:00feeling really good about that. Oh [ __ ]
1:00:01I'm a narcissist.
1:00:03Um I mean, who doesn't who who isn't
1:00:06like that?
1:00:07Um in terms of the love bombing, sending
1:00:10naked selfies, um who
1:00:14Who was doing that? Was what?
1:00:17Um so I don't know. It just gets murkier
1:00:21and murkier from there.
1:00:22Um
1:00:24The reality is that Nicole Kessinger
1:00:26found Watts to be introverted.
1:00:29And so this whole idea that Chris Watts
1:00:31wanted to be the center of Nicole's
1:00:32world.
1:00:34He wanted to be needed, etc.
1:00:37Um Was he the center of Kessinger's
1:00:39world?
1:00:41When they went camping, whose idea was
1:00:43it to go camping? We know in the video
1:00:45that she sent, she said, "Thank you
1:00:47Chris for for coming along." It seems to
1:00:50suggest that this was her idea.
1:00:52We know that Nicole Kessinger
1:00:55um
1:00:56is a
1:00:57geologist or she's she's educated in
1:01:00geology. She has an interest in nature.
1:01:02She has an interest in
1:01:04flowers and in the um structure of the
1:01:07earth and so on.
1:01:09Um and so going to the sand dunes seemed
1:01:12more like her idea than his. He never
1:01:15made a campfire in his life and she kind
1:01:18of jokingly mentioned that she showed
1:01:20him how to make a campfire. Why on earth
1:01:22would he take her camping if he'd never
1:01:24done it before in his life?
1:01:26He also mentioned to the police that
1:01:28Shannan had never gone on a the hike in
1:01:30her life.
1:01:31So he'd never done that with Shannan. So
1:01:35it does feel like the camping trip was
1:01:38Kessinger's idea. So how is Watts being
1:01:40the
1:01:42the center of attention in that
1:01:44situation?
1:01:47When they left the Lazy Dog uh
1:01:50restaurant um on Saturday night, August
1:01:5511th
1:01:57um because they were sitting too close
1:01:58to the door. Was that his idea? Was it
1:02:00his idea to just leave the restaurant um
1:02:02and go somewhere else?
1:02:08The YouTuber also talks about requiring
1:02:11a narcissistic supply and narcissistic
1:02:13fuel.
1:02:15This is very psychobabbly stuff
1:02:18associated with what you would hear if
1:02:20you're watching Dr. Phil. And if you're
1:02:23reading um
1:02:26uh
1:02:27psychology.com
1:02:29website, you're going to you're going to
1:02:30come across those terms, narcissistic
1:02:32supply and narcissistic fuel.
1:02:37Oh, like like social media.
1:02:40Would would you say that social media is
1:02:42narcissistic supply?
1:02:44Would you say that maybe social media is
1:02:46narcissistic fuel?
1:02:48Oh, you wouldn't. It's something else.
1:02:50It's So narcissistic supply is where you
1:02:53just need a person in front of you who
1:02:56is giving you compliments. You wouldn't
1:02:58go looking for that on social media,
1:03:00right?
1:03:02Because Chris Watts was never on social
1:03:04media.
1:03:06Shannan hijacked his account and also
1:03:08used his account to market Thrive.
1:03:11Incidentally, Shannan was constantly on
1:03:13social media.
1:03:15So Shannan was on social media to
1:03:17validate her
1:03:20and justify her feelings in terms of
1:03:22nutgate.
1:03:30Thrive is all about social media. Thrive
1:03:33is all about telling the world that you
1:03:35have got this car and you're going on
1:03:37this holiday and look how happy you are
1:03:40and how much you're thriving.
1:03:42And then you want so much support from
1:03:45everyone saying I love that chocolate
1:03:48bar. I love that powder and I'm I'm
1:03:51everything's going so great.
1:03:54What does that have to do with
1:03:56narcissistic supply?
1:03:58What does the Thrive business and the
1:04:01Thrive connection to social media have
1:04:03to do with narcissistic fuel?
1:04:07So I'm not a Thriver
1:04:09and I'm on Facebook and I see someone
1:04:12talking about Thrive.
1:04:14And they're saying how well they're
1:04:16doing. They're saying how much weight
1:04:18they've lost. They're saying how healthy
1:04:20they feel. They say how happy their
1:04:23family is.
1:04:24They say how much money they're making.
1:04:27Um they say they are so looking forward
1:04:30to going to
1:04:33Las Vegas for a and that they can have a
1:04:35wild party there.
1:04:37Um they they just love the people that
1:04:40are part of the whole thing and it's a
1:04:41family. Um
1:04:45Does that have anything to do with
1:04:46narcissistic supply? Oh, okay. No. So
1:04:49it's actually the narcissistic supply is
1:04:52all to do with Chris Watts wanting
1:04:55a supply.
1:04:57That's it.
1:04:58By the way, in a situation where you're
1:04:59in a loveless marriage, you're not
1:05:01getting a narcissistic supply, not even
1:05:03getting a normal supply of affection.
1:05:06You're in a loveless marriage and you go
1:05:10somewhere else because like most people
1:05:12you want to be
1:05:14you want you want to be loved by
1:05:16somebody.
1:05:18Is that narcissistic supply? If you say
1:05:20I want to be loved by someone.
1:05:22Is that narcissistic supply?
1:05:25Then the YouTuber goes on and says um a
1:05:28narcissist needs an ego boost like they
1:05:31matter and are important.
1:05:34Is is that um what Chris Watts is like?
1:05:37He needs his ego boosted. He sort of
1:05:39needs to be um
1:05:41part of those videos and he needs to say
1:05:44how great he is, right?
1:05:47Um
1:05:49Let's take that statement about
1:05:51narcissists needing an ego boost
1:05:53and them needing to feel like they
1:05:55matter and needing to feel that they're
1:05:58important. And let's associate that with
1:06:00nutgate.
1:06:03And there's so much we can say about
1:06:05that but I'm not going to go into it.
1:06:07Um but at the end of the whole nutgate
1:06:11thing, when Chris Watts was in North
1:06:14Carolina with her
1:06:16Shannan's message to him was basically
1:06:18and this is in the discovery. This isn't
1:06:20conjecture. It's not speculation. It's
1:06:23not someone's opinion.
1:06:24Shannan basically said to Chris Watts,
1:06:27"Choose me and the family and torpedo
1:06:30torpedo your parents. You don't need
1:06:31them.
1:06:32Uh let's cut your parents out of our
1:06:35lives."
1:06:36My life as in Shannan's life.
1:06:39Your life as in Chris Chris uh cut your
1:06:42parents out of your life, that'll make
1:06:43me feel better and also cut them out of
1:06:46your children's life, right?
1:06:48And um
1:06:50there was definitely an ego issue
1:06:52involved with nutgate because
1:06:56the message that Cindy gave to Shannan
1:06:59was Well,
1:07:01um
1:07:03CC needs to learn the lesson that she
1:07:05can't always get what she wants. So in
1:07:07other words, Shannan was upset that
1:07:09Cindy had brought out the ice cream and
1:07:12Shannan was angry that well, you could
1:07:14have almost killed my child. And Cindy
1:07:17was well, there's another child here.
1:07:19It's Jamie's children and and I'm giving
1:07:22them ice cream and yeah, well, if if CC
1:07:25may not eat certain foods, she also
1:07:27needs to learn that. She also needs to
1:07:29learn that she can't eat certain foods.
1:07:32Um and
1:07:34Shannan
1:07:35uh couldn't
1:07:37abide this
1:07:39um
1:07:43threat to her authority.
1:07:50On the 5th of August, Shannan wrote to
1:07:54Cassie Rosenberg that she needs a man
1:07:57that has the balls to protect his
1:07:58family.
1:08:01And at the same time, Shannan also wrote
1:08:04that
1:08:05Watts is a totally different person from
1:08:08the guy she's known for 8 years.
1:08:10Now, let's just think about that. Um
1:08:14Shannan wants Chris Watts to have the
1:08:16balls to protect his family.
1:08:21But what kind of protection is she
1:08:23talking about? She's talking about
1:08:25um
1:08:27getting rid of his own parents. That's
1:08:29him having the balls to protect his
1:08:31family.
1:08:33And as we know, Chris Watts didn't want
1:08:35to do that and he didn't do that. He
1:08:38kind of had the balls to I I don't know.
1:08:40I don't like using this these words, but
1:08:44he had the balls to want to keep his
1:08:47family in terms of his parents.
1:08:49Unfortunately, with disastrous
1:08:51um side effects in terms of his own
1:08:53personal family.
1:08:56Um Shannan also says he's a totally
1:08:58different person from the guy I've known
1:09:00for 8 years.
1:09:02That should have been a a a set alarm
1:09:05bells off in her mind. She should have
1:09:07seen why is he totally different? How is
1:09:10he totally different? And the answer is
1:09:13that he was different in the sense that
1:09:15he had gotten some balls. She would tell
1:09:19him that she didn't like this and she
1:09:21would expect him to
1:09:24um do something when she asked and and
1:09:26he just wasn't doing anymore. He wasn't
1:09:28showing her affection anymore, and so he
1:09:30was
1:09:31in a in a way that was becoming quite
1:09:33scary. He was developing balls to
1:09:38sort of go go another another route,
1:09:42and the route contrary to the route that
1:09:44Shannan wanted him to go on to.
1:09:47And so the raise another question is,
1:09:49how did Shannan not know that he was
1:09:50having an affair?
1:09:52How did Shannan not
1:09:56put two and two together?
1:09:59How did Shannan not see that? And you
1:10:02know, what kind of person is Shannan
1:10:04that she didn't see what was happening
1:10:07right in front of her?
1:10:10Why is it that when
1:10:12he said that he would um
1:10:15do these marriage courses, and he and he
1:10:17would We first said he wouldn't.
1:10:19And then she wrote him a love letter,
1:10:22and he didn't write back. Why did
1:10:25she not
1:10:28realize what was going on?
1:10:30I mean, at no point is there a
1:10:34message from Shannan saying, "I know
1:10:36you're having an affair. Who is it with?
1:10:39What are you doing?" There is a point
1:10:40where she she did say
1:10:43"Someone doesn't fall out of love with
1:10:44someone after 5 and 1/2 weeks, um unless
1:10:47they met someone else."
1:10:49That's not even a direct accusation.
1:10:51That's that's sort of a indirect hint.
1:10:54Shannan never con- You know, if you take
1:10:56the confrontation with with his parents
1:10:59and the whole nut gate thing, and then
1:11:01you take the affair. What Why doesn't
1:11:03she confront him on the affair and say
1:11:06"Yes or no, are you having an affair?
1:11:08What's going on here? Why Why are you
1:11:11always going to bed so early? Um
1:11:13Why haven't you been communicating? You
1:11:16You must be having an affair. You know,
1:11:18what else is going on?"
1:11:20So why did Shannan not
1:11:22um pursue that?
1:11:25Where is her focus?
1:11:27And so on the 5th of August, Shannan
1:11:30says she won't change a thing about
1:11:32herself.
1:11:33And she calls herself a saint for not
1:11:35telling his mom that she's a narcissist,
1:11:38and this is the that that second um
1:11:41uh a reference.
1:11:43Um
1:11:44She calls herself a saint for not
1:11:45telling his mom she's a narcissist
1:11:47stupid [ __ ] and
1:11:49said they're done and never coming back.
1:11:52Um someone saying, "I will not change a
1:11:54thing about myself, and I'm a saint, and
1:11:57blah blah." That doesn't seem to be
1:12:00um
1:12:04the kind of person who's going to be
1:12:05able to see reality.
1:12:07That seems to be someone who's going to
1:12:09see things their way and have things
1:12:11their way.
1:12:12And that's a that's a narcissistic
1:12:15trait.
1:12:18So, you know, if we get back to what
1:12:20Shannan said about um a man that has the
1:12:23balls
1:12:24to do This is what she wants him to do,
1:12:26and he has no game.
1:12:28Um it's unfortunate to have to put it in
1:12:31these terms, but Watts did get the
1:12:34balls. He did get the balls to do
1:12:36something, and he did have some game
1:12:39in the way that he tried to fix what was
1:12:41going on. He And I don't think the
1:12:44taunting helped. Did it help um the
1:12:47situation to to say to
1:12:50um
1:12:51Chris Watts to him and behind his back
1:12:53as well that he has no balls?
1:12:56Did it help? That's just a question.
1:13:00Um obviously in a situation
1:13:03um that's ended this way, you certainly
1:13:05don't want to say that
1:13:07could
1:13:08you know, could um mean words have
1:13:11resulted in this tragedy.
1:13:14Um
1:13:17Because if we took that too hard, you
1:13:19you would say, "Well, in any marriage,
1:13:21be careful of what you say. It could
1:13:24cause
1:13:26um some kind of disaster." And obviously
1:13:28not everyone is going to
1:13:31um
1:13:32act in this
1:13:34um
1:13:36unacceptable way, to put it mildly.
1:13:39But words are
1:13:41um
1:13:42words do have an effect, and insulting
1:13:45someone does have an effect. And the
1:13:46irony of this this person who
1:13:49is all about abuse is that that that
1:13:52there's absolutely no abuse from Shannan
1:13:55to Chris Watts. Telling a man that he's
1:13:58not got any balls isn't abuse, right?
1:14:01Um if a man says something X Y Z, that's
1:14:05abuse. But you can tell a man he has no
1:14:07game. You can tell him behind his back
1:14:09he has no game, and you can
1:14:12you can ridicule him on Facebook. That's
1:14:14None of that's abuse. Because you
1:14:15there's no You can't abuse a man. You
1:14:17can't abuse a man verbally.
1:14:19Um
1:14:22It only works the other way around.
1:14:24Right?
1:14:26So
1:14:29then the particular YouTuber talks about
1:14:31children that would interfere with
1:14:34getting the full attention of Kessinger.
1:14:37And then she refers to an audio clip
1:14:40where Nicole tells him to spend time
1:14:42with his children.
1:14:44Well, there's another anecdote, too.
1:14:46Um
1:14:47And I don't think there's any question
1:14:49of whether Chris Watts was a good father
1:14:51until the moment he murdered his
1:14:53children. I don't think there's a
1:14:54question of whether
1:14:56he
1:14:57and them didn't get along until that
1:15:006-week period where they were not
1:15:02together.
1:15:04Um By all accounts, Shannan said that he
1:15:07was a good father. Shannan's parents
1:15:09said he was a good father.
1:15:11Watts' parents said he was a good
1:15:12father.
1:15:13Watts himself
1:15:15said that that was the best part of his
1:15:17life, that he was a a father.
1:15:20And um
1:15:22one doesn't really get the impression
1:15:23that Kessinger had a problem with the
1:15:25children, although that did come up.
1:15:27It's not as they didn't come up
1:15:28whatsoever.
1:15:30Um
1:15:33Kessinger did say that, you know, she
1:15:35would want this experience of
1:15:37having children kind of for the first
1:15:40time with with someone not not not
1:15:43almost through a second-hand experience.
1:15:45These were texts sent to her friend uh
1:15:48Charlotte Nelson. So, and I think they
1:15:50were I think some of them were sent on
1:15:52the Sunday right before the murders. I
1:15:55say that under correction, but
1:15:57anyway, we do know that those texts were
1:15:59sent.
1:16:01Is that Kessinger being a narcissist, or
1:16:03is that healthy narcissism?
1:16:05If you're um
1:16:06single and you want to be in a
1:16:08relationship with someone, is it Are you
1:16:10being a narcissist if you say, "Well, I
1:16:12prefer the other person
1:16:14doesn't have children"? Is that being a
1:16:16narcissist, or is that sort of a healthy
1:16:18way to want to conduct relationships?
1:16:22Gets a little bit more complicated,
1:16:23doesn't it?
1:16:24Um but there's also another anecdote,
1:16:27and um
1:16:30and this is just to counter the
1:16:32YouTuber's contention that Watts wanted
1:16:35the full attention of Nicole Kessinger.
1:16:38In other words,
1:16:39from Watts' perspective, he wanted the
1:16:41full attention of Kessinger. That's why
1:16:42he killed his children. I think it's the
1:16:44other way around. I think Watts thought
1:16:47Kessinger wanted his full attention. In
1:16:49other words, he's responding possibly to
1:16:52her narcissism. It's not him being a
1:16:53narcissist.
1:16:55Um and we get the sort of context to
1:16:58that where she talks about There's
1:17:00another anecdote, too, on July 4th,
1:17:03where Nicole was upset because he he had
1:17:05to take a call from Shannan and then
1:17:07went home.
1:17:09And she felt like because of that,
1:17:11because he took this longish call from
1:17:13her, and and he felt that he was maybe
1:17:17taking a risk always not being at home.
1:17:21Um Kessinger felt that she'd always be
1:17:23second best. Now, you take the
1:17:24narcissism question to that, and you say
1:17:27is
1:17:29Kessinger being a narcissist by feeling
1:17:31like she might always be second best, or
1:17:33is that a healthy response to that
1:17:35situation?
1:17:40If we go to the discovery documents, we
1:17:42see that at and this is the timeline
1:17:45um from the
1:17:47um cell phone recovery information,
1:17:51we see that on July 4th at 08:56,
1:17:55Watts called Shannan and held a
1:17:5719-minute conversation.
1:17:59Um and then
1:18:01that day, Nicole went to Chris's home in
1:18:03Frederick to help him set up a diet and
1:18:06weight loss goals.
1:18:10One wonders if that was the real reason
1:18:12um because, you know, why would Watts
1:18:15and Shannan have a
1:18:169-minute conversation, and then
1:18:18and then Nicole would go to his house
1:18:20with him.
1:18:22And then discuss exercise goals. In any
1:18:25event, um Nicole said she was at
1:18:28um his home that day, July 4th.
1:18:32And then after spending time with him,
1:18:36she she went to watch a Colorado Rockies
1:18:39baseball game without him.
1:18:41And more than likely he would have
1:18:43wanted to go along to that game.
1:18:47In any event, uh at 22:44,
1:18:51uh 10:44 that night,
1:18:54um
1:18:55we know Watts Chris Watts watched the
1:18:58Independence Day fireworks with Nick and
1:19:00Amanda Thayer.
1:19:02And then
1:19:03he stopped by their
1:19:06phone afterwards, and and he finally
1:19:08came home at 10:44 when his phone
1:19:11connected to um their router.
1:19:19What we know from the
1:19:22um
1:19:23the discovery is that on July 4th
1:19:26um
1:19:27they had an argument um
1:19:29Nicole and Chris Watts and it was about
1:19:32her feeling like she would always come
1:19:34second best.
1:19:37And uh we'll deal with that in the next
1:19:39section which is about dealing with uh
1:19:41healthy narcissism. So, I'm going to
1:19:43touch on another aspect which is
1:19:45that um
1:19:46there is a perception that Shannan you
1:19:48know so this YouTuber has said
1:19:51that
1:19:53Watts murdered his children
1:19:55sorry [clears throat] because
1:20:00he wanted
1:20:02Let's go back to what she actually said.
1:20:06Uh he murdered his children because they
1:20:08would interfere with getting the full
1:20:09attention of Kessinger. So, in other
1:20:11words, Watts wanted the full attention
1:20:14of Kessinger and so that's why he
1:20:16murdered his children. That's not the
1:20:18answer.
1:20:20Um Watts
1:20:23felt that
1:20:25um
1:20:28Kessinger wanted his full attention but
1:20:30it was more to do with how he dealt with
1:20:33with Shannan. Um
1:20:37I think the I think the main reason why
1:20:39he did what he did in terms of the
1:20:41children had to do with
1:20:43the financial the financial situation.
1:20:47Um the financial
1:20:50aspect in terms of the poor health of
1:20:52his children as and a lot of people have
1:20:54debated that and said no the
1:20:56children are the picture of health.
1:20:59I think that's a factor but I think the
1:21:00biggest factor was the fact that
1:21:03um Shannan had turned the children
1:21:06against him and his parents.
1:21:09Um
1:21:10and you can look at that and say no I
1:21:12don't think that's the case.
1:21:15The the issue is what did Chris Watts
1:21:17think? Did Chris Watts think that the
1:21:20the children had been turned against
1:21:21him?
1:21:23Did Chris Watts think that his children
1:21:25had been turned against his parents? And
1:21:28we know that
1:21:29um on the night before Shannan's murder
1:21:33on Sunday night
1:21:36um I should say this under correction it
1:21:38may be early in the day
1:21:40um but
1:21:43Ronnie wanted to I think FaceTime with
1:21:46the children and Watts said that he
1:21:50didn't think it was a good idea because
1:21:51the children would tell Shannan that
1:21:54about that and that would cause a
1:21:56tantrum. So, here you have a situation
1:21:59where Watts
1:22:01is
1:22:02not even allowing his own children to
1:22:04talk to his father
1:22:06because of how Shannan might react to
1:22:09that situation.
1:22:12So, you can see to what extent the
1:22:14children had been turned against
1:22:17them them being Chris Watts and his
1:22:20parents.
1:22:21Um we also know that when he sat down
1:22:24and ate with them they threw him with
1:22:26chicken nuggets and he said he told the
1:22:28police that he missed that. I don't
1:22:31think he missed that. I think that was
1:22:33what he saw as
1:22:36that was his life at that time with his
1:22:38children.
1:22:39Um can you imagine that happening at a
1:22:42dinner table and Shannan sitting there?
1:22:44Shannan someone who's very neat and and
1:22:47likes
1:22:48things to be under control. Can you
1:22:50imagine Shannan sitting at the table and
1:22:53her children throwing
1:22:55this guy who has no balls and no game
1:22:58with chicken nuggets her children
1:22:59throwing him. Can you imagine just
1:23:02imagine that situation?
1:23:04And one does have to wonder whether that
1:23:06happened with Shannan present or whether
1:23:08that happened
1:23:09just when Shannan wasn't present. And if
1:23:11that happened with Shannan not present
1:23:13why were the children doing that in the
1:23:14first place?
1:23:20So,
1:23:21that's something I think to consider and
1:23:23and that brings us to
1:23:26the
1:23:27True Crime Rocket Science take on this
1:23:30particular topic. This is really where
1:23:33the
1:23:34criminal psychology rubber starts to hit
1:23:36the road where we start talking sensibly
1:23:39I hope and thinking sensibly I hope
1:23:42about narcissism.
1:23:46So, that's point number four. Is there
1:23:48such a thing as healthy narcissism?
1:23:51Because if you want to if we want to
1:23:53understand unhealthy narcissism and
1:23:56let's let's come up with a term which
1:23:58doesn't exist but let's
1:24:01let's uh tip our caps to these wonderful
1:24:04people who are talking about narcissism
1:24:06as though it's a factor let's refer to
1:24:09something called criminal narcissism.
1:24:11Never heard the term before it's the
1:24:12first time I'm using it. But let's say
1:24:15is there such a thing as healthy
1:24:17narcissism which we can distinguish from
1:24:19criminal narcissism. And and this is how
1:24:22we address that.
1:24:24If you take siblings in a in any
1:24:27situation in a family
1:24:30and the one sibling sees that another
1:24:32one has got a
1:24:37piece of a cake that's slightly bigger
1:24:39than the other sibling.
1:24:42Should that sibling complain about that?
1:24:46And the answer is of course they should.
1:24:48Of course three siblings that each get a
1:24:50slice of cake should look at the other
1:24:52sibling's cake compare it and make sure
1:24:55that they're equal. Why? Because any
1:24:57sibling needs to make sure that they get
1:25:01as much as they can in the family
1:25:03setting and that will later translate to
1:25:05the world setting.
1:25:07In other words, you need to preserve
1:25:09your
1:25:11um
1:25:12status. You need to preserve your place
1:25:14in the world. You need to protect your
1:25:17self-interest.
1:25:19And so any situation where you have
1:25:22siblings and the one sibling gets uh
1:25:25and and all three siblings want
1:25:27something and they want as much as they
1:25:29can get of it.
1:25:30And say the one sibling gets
1:25:32um
1:25:33a quarter glass of say Coca-Cola at the
1:25:37birthday party and another one gets it's
1:25:39not a good example but another one gets
1:25:41a half glass.
1:25:43Should the sibling that got the quarter
1:25:45glass be very happy with that?
1:25:48The answer is no they shouldn't be happy
1:25:50with that. You can use many other
1:25:52examples um how close the one is sitting
1:25:56to
1:25:57the window or um you know if they're
1:26:00driving in the car can I get to sit by
1:26:02the window. Parents with children know
1:26:04about all the all the little
1:26:05permutations where siblings bicker
1:26:08endlessly. And the bottom line is this
1:26:11bickering is important. It's how
1:26:13siblings
1:26:14find their place in the world and how
1:26:16they exert their power and how they
1:26:19um learn to negotiate what is theirs and
1:26:22what isn't theirs. Right? It's it's
1:26:25finding the boundaries to control and to
1:26:27power
1:26:29and to fathoming the
1:26:32edges of one's
1:26:34um
1:26:35influence in a social society among
1:26:38social animals.
1:26:40So, the sibling
1:26:42situation is really um a a great way to
1:26:46understand healthy narcissism. It's
1:26:49irritating especially for parents but
1:26:51it's necessary.
1:26:53One might look at that and say okay
1:26:55that's healthy narcissism.
1:26:57Um what about when someone's completely
1:26:59self-centered and everything is about
1:27:01them and it's all about their dreams and
1:27:03it's
1:27:04kind of everything what that they do at
1:27:06the at the expense of everything else.
1:27:08Is that an unhealthy narcissism? If
1:27:11someone is
1:27:13completely focused on themselves
1:27:17and it's all about them surely is isn't
1:27:20that an unhealthy narcissism?
1:27:23And then we take that into the schema of
1:27:26a Olympic athlete say someone like
1:27:29Michael Phelps
1:27:32or an some kind of Olympic sprinter
1:27:34and we say this is someone who's totally
1:27:37self-focused.
1:27:39He's completely focused on the race that
1:27:41he's doing. He's controlling his diet in
1:27:44every aspect. He needs to preserve his
1:27:46peace of mind.
1:27:48He um needs everything done his way. You
1:27:51can even look at certain tennis players
1:27:53like
1:27:54uh Rafa Nadal and and others where they
1:27:57have little rituals that are inviolable.
1:28:01And
1:28:02um
1:28:03all these little things that must be
1:28:04done their way. And then you say is that
1:28:07a healthy narcissism or not? Then you
1:28:09say oh well of course within sport it's
1:28:11fine but that's an extreme amount of
1:28:14narcissism.
1:28:16Isn't that unhealthy? To be completely
1:28:18focused on yourself all the time and
1:28:21paying attention to your body and and
1:28:23how you are tuned to a certain outcome
1:28:25and dreaming of yourself holding the
1:28:27gold medal. Isn't that unhealthy
1:28:29narcissism? And I think the whole world
1:28:31can agree that we celebrate that. We
1:28:34celebrate Olympic champions. We we
1:28:36celebrate tennis champions. We celebrate
1:28:39people who
1:28:40are so focused and dedicated.
1:28:43And so here you have another example of
1:28:45extreme narcissism.
1:28:49It's an an extreme amount of being self
1:28:52um obsessed and self-absorbed and and
1:28:56caught up in your own saga of
1:28:58self-interest.
1:29:00And um
1:29:04and it's at the expense of someone else
1:29:05because when
1:29:0710 Olympic athletes
1:29:09uh line up to to to do the sprint only
1:29:12one wins. Of course nobody looks at the
1:29:15the the guy who comes last. no one looks
1:29:17at the other nine who lose, everyone
1:29:20looks at the winner. And what's
1:29:22happening? They're projecting their own
1:29:23narcissism onto the winner. They're
1:29:24projecting their own
1:29:27narcissism onto
1:29:29onto this idea of being of triumphing
1:29:31and the gold medal.
1:29:33There's nothing unhealthy with that.
1:29:37So, what is the problem with narcissism?
1:29:40Is is narcissism having self-love?
1:29:43Should you not love yourself?
1:29:46Um self-love includes things like
1:29:48grooming, uh taking a bath each night,
1:29:51um
1:29:52you know, getting out of bed and
1:29:53dressing appropriately and and and
1:29:55heading outside.
1:29:57Um having manners, having respect. All
1:30:00of that is to do with self-love. Isn't
1:30:01that narcissism?
1:30:03So, where where does narcissism cross
1:30:05that boundary between
1:30:07um let's call it healthy narcissism and
1:30:12unhealthy narcissism or healthy
1:30:14narcissism and
1:30:18let's say either abuse or criminal
1:30:20narcissism.
1:30:23So, someone might be very narcissistic
1:30:25and they eat healthily,
1:30:27but you could have someone as well who's
1:30:29who has develops an eating disor-
1:30:31disorder because they want to appear
1:30:34they're desperate to appear thin and
1:30:36acceptable to others. And it's as soon
1:30:38as you the narcissism goes to a form of
1:30:41desperation
1:30:43and insufficiency and insecurity that
1:30:45you have a problem.
1:30:47And when you look at Shannan Watts and
1:30:48Chris Watts and you say, which one was
1:30:50the more insecure of the two?
1:30:53Which one was the more insufficient of
1:30:55the two? Which one was the more
1:30:57unhealthy of the two?
1:30:59What does that say?
1:31:01Uh we when we look at Chris Watts using
1:31:03the supplements, the shakes and the
1:31:05pills, he used them on a daily basis, um
1:31:09and he lost 13 lb between July 4th and
1:31:12August 11th.
1:31:13What does that say about his narcissism?
1:31:15Was that a healthy narcissism or
1:31:17unhealthy? And that's where you have a
1:31:20valid question. As you say,
1:31:23you know, when Chris started looking
1:31:24better and looking fit and all that,
1:31:28physical fitness,
1:31:30how did that im- impact on his
1:31:31narcissism?
1:31:33And um as soon as you have that
1:31:35conversation, you start conflating um
1:31:38how one appears, and that's really a
1:31:40question of vanity, with everybody else.
1:31:43Do you care about your weight? Do you
1:31:46care about how you look?
1:31:48Well, isn't that what the whole Thrive
1:31:52superstructure is built on? Vanity
1:31:55and narcissism. So, if you you really
1:31:58want to have a conversation about that
1:32:00and what's healthy narcissism and what's
1:32:02not, let's talk about that in the
1:32:04context of multi-level marketing and
1:32:07especially Thrive.
1:32:09The word Thrive itself is a nod to
1:32:14healthy narcissism.
1:32:16On page 16 of the CBI report, and this
1:32:20deals with when
1:32:22Watts and Kessinger fought, did they
1:32:24ever fought? Sorry, did they ever fight?
1:32:28Um this is really important. Um when
1:32:29couples fight, it it has to do with
1:32:33um
1:32:34different attitudes and potentially to
1:32:38do with
1:32:39um
1:32:40issues of control and narcissism in
1:32:42different areas.
1:32:44Right? And so,
1:32:46Chris Watts was asked whether they ever
1:32:48fought, Chris Watts answered they never
1:32:51fought, but he had to calm Kessinger
1:32:53down a few times. Kessinger got upset
1:32:56when she realized she would always be
1:32:57the other person and Watts would always
1:33:00put his wife first. Now, if you just
1:33:03look at that question again, it's
1:33:05um
1:33:07Watts is putting his wife first, right?
1:33:12But I thought from this YouTuber that
1:33:14that Watts wanted to be the focus, but
1:33:16now why is he putting his wife first?
1:33:17Why is he even taking her calls?
1:33:20Why is he going to North Carolina?
1:33:23Um
1:33:25why is he
1:33:28moving into an apartment so that his
1:33:30kids can visit him?
1:33:32Um
1:33:33why is he babysitting his children when
1:33:37he could be with
1:33:39Kessinger
1:33:40uh the last weekend that they were
1:33:42together, etc., etc.
1:33:45And um so,
1:33:47yeah, you you you could justifiably say,
1:33:49isn't Kessinger being unreasonable here?
1:33:52Um he's still married to his wife, so,
1:33:55you know, isn't she being narcissistic
1:33:58here?
1:34:00I don't like that word because it just
1:34:02interferes with just the way that we
1:34:04interpret ordinary human dynamics. Why
1:34:07must one person be a narcissist and and
1:34:10then what is the other person?
1:34:12It just doesn't really work. You just
1:34:14end up
1:34:15um infesting every little discussion
1:34:18with that word.
1:34:21Um in terms of this page 16, um he tells
1:34:24Kessinger,
1:34:26just because he has to leave doesn't
1:34:28mean um Kessinger had to take a step
1:34:30back. He's saying, "Well, just because I
1:34:31want to go somewhere doesn't mean
1:34:33you're out of the picture."
1:34:37And but Kessinger didn't like that and
1:34:39she said she thought it was better that
1:34:43they didn't see each other for the rest
1:34:44of the day and that that was July 4th.
1:34:47So, July 4th is quite a big deal. It's
1:34:50um
1:34:50Independence Day, the fireworks.
1:34:53It's a holiday and um
1:34:55she went to watch a baseball game and
1:34:57and they spent that day apart.
1:35:00And it was obviously cuz Kessinger felt
1:35:01stung. She felt um
1:35:04she wanted to be with Watts. She wanted
1:35:06to be the center of his attention. Does
1:35:08that make If you want to be the center
1:35:10of someone's attention that loves you,
1:35:11that you love, does that make you a
1:35:13narcissist?
1:35:15Um and in the end, Kessinger at the end
1:35:17of the day ended up asking him to come
1:35:19over after she returned from the
1:35:21baseball game and he went to her house
1:35:23and presumably he slept at the house.
1:35:27Um also interestingly, uh while
1:35:31Kessinger was in a relationship with
1:35:32Watts, apparently,
1:35:34she set up a couple of dates on her
1:35:36eHarmony app and men never showed up.
1:35:39Uh Watts said he didn't know Kessinger
1:35:40was dating other people until a few
1:35:42weeks later.
1:35:44Um and then you say, "Well, is that
1:35:46being a narcissist? The fact that
1:35:47Kessinger was dating others, does that
1:35:50mean
1:35:53she was sort of trying to keep her bread
1:35:55buttered on both sides? Would she be the
1:35:57only person to ever do that in the
1:35:58world?"
1:36:01Um Chris Watts was a married man and he
1:36:03had children, so wasn't And Kessinger
1:36:05was single, she had her own home, she
1:36:07had a job. Wasn't she entitled to
1:36:10um
1:36:12see if the grass is green on the other
1:36:14side? Were you know, were there other
1:36:16men that weren't Were there other
1:36:18available men that weren't
1:36:20married, that didn't have children?
1:36:22Wasn't it Wasn't she within her rights
1:36:24to to look around?
1:36:27Is that healthy narcissism or unhealthy
1:36:29narcissism?
1:36:30Um
1:36:32Kessinger thought he was different
1:36:34because he would fix things around her
1:36:35apartment for her, which no one had done
1:36:37for her in the past. I find that quite
1:36:39sad
1:36:41that
1:36:42almost that that other men in
1:36:44Kessinger's life had not paid that much
1:36:46attention to and didn't really do things
1:36:48for her. And so, when Chris did that for
1:36:50her,
1:36:52um it meant something to her and she
1:36:54felt um affec- his affection and care.
1:37:03Okay, let's wrap up. Uh social media
1:37:06illustrates how narcissistic our society
1:37:08is becoming.
1:37:10Social media is normal and it shows how
1:37:14narcissism is normal. Social media isn't
1:37:17healthy
1:37:18as a general rule. Um
1:37:21it riles people up. It it's populist. It
1:37:24separates people into tribes. It makes
1:37:25people reactionary and emotional.
1:37:29Um narc- uh social media's all about me.
1:37:32It's all about how many notifications
1:37:34and followers I have.
1:37:36Um it's it's en- entirely
1:37:40self-reinforcing and self-justifying and
1:37:42self-validating.
1:37:44It's not healthy.
1:37:46And
1:37:47social media is having an impact on true
1:37:50crime.
1:37:51Shannan's Facebook gives us insight into
1:37:55this
1:37:56true crime case and it's not the first.
1:38:01There's even the possibility that
1:38:03subsequent to the first confession
1:38:06and the conjectures on YouTube about
1:38:08shadows in the driveway,
1:38:10that Chris Watts was influenced by that
1:38:13in how he handled the second confession.
1:38:15In other words,
1:38:16um
1:38:18the way Chris Watts was thinking about
1:38:19his own situation was affected by what
1:38:22he heard others were thinking and saying
1:38:24about it on social media, which then
1:38:27contaminated the narrative
1:38:31of the of the of this person
1:38:33um
1:38:34at the center of it. So, it no longer
1:38:36becomes simply the person at the center
1:38:39of it um
1:38:41and that's that's the full story. It
1:38:42becomes
1:38:44an interchange between
1:38:46um the criminal society and social media
1:38:49and that's an aspect that's not been
1:38:52really thought about or addressed in in
1:38:54much detail.
1:38:55Uh I have a theory that the Shadders
1:38:57video um Watts that that Watts um I'm
1:39:01not saying that he saw it, but that
1:39:03someone saw it and told him about it and
1:39:05because it was a big issue. It was did
1:39:07this mean that the children were still
1:39:08alive?
1:39:10And I have a feeling that what's new
1:39:13about it before the
1:39:15second um
1:39:17confession, before that interrogation in
1:39:20um
1:39:21in mid-February, February 18th.
1:39:24And I think what's so hard could benefit
1:39:27him if he said, "Yes, now they were
1:39:28still alive."
1:39:30Um and I'll tell you why. A premeditated
1:39:33murder is much worse than the scenario
1:39:36he gave during the second confession.
1:39:38Bear in mind the first confession was a
1:39:41relatively mild scenario in his version
1:39:44where Shannan did X and Y. The second
1:39:47confession is a
1:39:50is an adaptation on that. I don't think
1:39:52it's true either, but it's also a milder
1:39:54version than the reality. And so what is
1:39:57reality? Reality is premeditated murder,
1:40:00which as I say is much worse. A lot of
1:40:02people have said that that can't be.
1:40:04What he described couldn't be more
1:40:06horrible. It can. It can be more
1:40:08horrible.
1:40:10Um
1:40:12the scenario he gave presents murder as
1:40:15an inexplicable afterthought that
1:40:17doesn't make sense.
1:40:18Um that's confusing. But it's somehow
1:40:21not as bad as someone spontaneously
1:40:24um
1:40:28Sorry, not spontaneously, but as part of
1:40:30a pre-planned scenario killing his own
1:40:32family step by step.
1:40:35And this is what I mean by that.
1:40:38In a premeditated scenario, you have
1:40:41someone who is
1:40:43determined to fix his situation.
1:40:47He is presented with a broken machine
1:40:50and he's he's also presented with a
1:40:53brand new
1:40:55machine. It's like with a broken car and
1:40:57a brand new car, and what's he going to
1:40:59do with the one? What's he going to do
1:41:00with the other?
1:41:02Is he going to fix the broken car, or is
1:41:04he going to
1:41:06crush it and get rid of it?
1:41:12So, in a situation where of a
1:41:14premeditated murder meant while he was
1:41:17at home with them, he's plotting their
1:41:19demise. While they're at the birthday
1:41:21party, he's piecing together where to
1:41:24bury their bodies. While while the
1:41:25children are playing in that that little
1:41:28inflatable swimming pool, he's imagining
1:41:34them being um pushed through the the
1:41:37feed hatches into a different kind of
1:41:39pool of oil. That's cold. That's
1:41:42callous.
1:41:45And in the um
1:41:48CBI report, um
1:41:51they actually asked him, you know, what
1:41:52could he have told
1:41:54what what could the authorities have
1:41:56told him that that would have gotten him
1:41:58to tell them the truth. And what's then
1:42:00referred to
1:42:02um
1:42:05to the video. And he says when he was in
1:42:07the interrogation room, he was nervous.
1:42:09He knew something was wrong. And he knew
1:42:12they were going to find out. Um he said
1:42:14he'd watched enough TV shows,
1:42:16but he'd never spoken to an officer in
1:42:18the past. He struggled with the horror
1:42:21of knowing what he did and trying to
1:42:22tell someone else about it. He didn't
1:42:25even want to admit to himself what he
1:42:27had done.
1:42:28He knew what he did was horrific and how
1:42:30much it would hurt other people. He
1:42:32couldn't admit to himself that he had
1:42:34done it, so he couldn't admit it to the
1:42:35police.
1:42:37You can dismiss this and say it's not
1:42:38true and I don't believe it, but it
1:42:40rings true. It does ring true that
1:42:44he couldn't admit the truth because it
1:42:46was so horrible.
1:42:48And um you know, if you've watched
1:42:51Mindhunter or or other things, there
1:42:53there's some
1:42:54serial killers who can talk about what
1:42:57they did. Watts uh didn't talk about
1:42:59what he did. What When he did talk about
1:43:01certain aspects, he did um
1:43:04he he certainly did appear
1:43:06um disturbingly unemotional. That that
1:43:09is a fact.
1:43:11So, there is likely some sociopathic
1:43:15aspect, but I wouldn't say he's a
1:43:17sociopath. I would just say there
1:43:18there's an
1:43:19there's an aspect that needs to be
1:43:21addressed, which probably has more to do
1:43:23with introversion and
1:43:25um a lack of um social
1:43:29um
1:43:31he's not very socialized.
1:43:33But that's that's not sociopathy. Um
1:43:36if he was
1:43:38a sociopath, he wouldn't need to
1:43:41um
1:43:43confess, um and he wouldn't need to talk
1:43:45to anyone about it.
1:43:47Um and he wouldn't feel horrified by
1:43:51what he'd done.
1:43:52Um in any event, in that same section,
1:43:55they ask um
1:43:57him how they could have tricked him into
1:44:00revealing the truth earlier, and he
1:44:01says,
1:44:02"If we would have lied and told him we
1:44:05saw the video of the kids in the truck,
1:44:10and I think that's a big statement from
1:44:12him because he does mention lying. He's
1:44:15saying that
1:44:16if they saw the video of the kids in the
1:44:18truck, this is presumably the video of
1:44:20the kids being alive, then he would have
1:44:23told them the truth."
1:44:33It's also interesting that he says he
1:44:34talked to his dad because he wanted to
1:44:36tell him he loved him and he and it was
1:44:38probably the last time he would see him
1:44:40outside of the cell.
1:44:41Um again, you look at that and you say,
1:44:44"Is that narcissism, or is that healthy
1:44:46narcissism of a
1:44:48of a murderer?"
1:44:53The other aspect that's in the
1:44:56the discovery on in the CBI report is
1:44:58where
1:45:00um they show him pictures of the girls
1:45:02during the interrogation, and he says,
1:45:04"That definitely got into my head."
1:45:06Again, if he was a
1:45:08person with no emotions, a heartless
1:45:11monster, then showing the pictures of
1:45:13the girls would have no effect.
1:45:15And when they ask him about him not
1:45:17showing emotions when he sh-
1:45:20he was shown the pictures, he said,
1:45:23"He's the type of person to hold it all
1:45:25in and not show emotion." And that's the
1:45:27part that's really misunderstood about
1:45:29Chris Watts is someone who is a type of
1:45:32person that holds emotions in
1:45:35isn't necessarily a sociopath. There's
1:45:38There's a very well-known kind of person
1:45:40who holds emotions in.
1:45:43It's an introvert, and they're very
1:45:44well-known.
1:45:48As an addendum to the section, I want to
1:45:51talk about
1:45:53the undiscovered country of the Chris
1:45:55Watts case, which is how narcissism
1:45:58changes obsessive-compulsive disorder.
1:46:01I've already mentioned that OCD is a
1:46:05very clear and undisputed aspect of this
1:46:08case.
1:46:10But no one wants to talk about how
1:46:11narcissism could change that.
1:46:14And uh I'm going to do so very briefly
1:46:17here. I've done so in more detail in the
1:46:19books.
1:46:21Um
1:46:23when we go to uh psychcentral.com,
1:46:26there's an article about that. And
1:46:30we see that we see an anecdote where
1:46:34um
1:46:35it refers to a teenager coming into
1:46:37someone's office complaining about
1:46:39anxiety
1:46:41um experienced from the
1:46:44uh obsessive-compulsive disordered
1:46:46parent. So, the teenager's complaining
1:46:48about the OCD parent, and then the
1:46:51teenager gives the um I presume it's the
1:46:55psychologist a
1:46:58few examples. And so, yeah yeah, they
1:47:01are.
1:47:02And I quote, "The compulsive
1:47:04hand-washing that led to dry and
1:47:06sometimes bloody hands were imposed on
1:47:08everyone in the household. There was a
1:47:10sense of superiority that this family
1:47:12did things such as proper cleaning and
1:47:16sterilized laundry better than than
1:47:18others. The excessive rituals before and
1:47:21after people would leave the house were
1:47:23designed to impress a magazine
1:47:25decorating editor. Unable to keep up
1:47:28with the expectations of the parent, the
1:47:30teenager felt defeated." I think that's
1:47:32quite important. Uh sorry, end quote. I
1:47:35think that's quite important um
1:47:37when you have someone with OCD, um
1:47:40you're dealing with someone who has a
1:47:41lot of expectations and rituals about
1:47:43themselves,
1:47:45and you've now got to keep up with them.
1:47:48You've got to keep up with all the
1:47:49little things that they want you to do.
1:47:51And that does over a long period of time
1:47:54that that can leave you feeling
1:47:56defeated. That no matter what you do,
1:47:58you're never
1:48:00you're never going to adequately address
1:48:02that person's
1:48:03um anxiety and need for control. No
1:48:06matter what you do, you're just not
1:48:07doing enough, right?
1:48:10Um so, the psychologist
1:48:14um went and met the parent,
1:48:18and this was her assessment. "It became
1:48:21apparent that in addition to the OCD,
1:48:23they had narcissistic personality
1:48:25disorder, NPD.
1:48:28This changes everything. The approach,
1:48:31the treatment planning, and the
1:48:33management of the OCD because the
1:48:34underlying motive is completely
1:48:36different. A person who has narcissistic
1:48:39personality disorder and OCD is not
1:48:42likely to change their behavior, but it
1:48:45can be guided so as not to impose
1:48:47destructively
1:48:49um
1:48:51onto others."
1:48:53I just want to repeat that. Is that
1:48:57someone with
1:49:00OCD and narcissism isn't going to be
1:49:03able to change their behavior. You're
1:49:05basically stuck with someone like that.
1:49:09And the best that you can do is explain
1:49:12to a person like that how that they how
1:49:14they imposing their rituals on others,
1:49:18imposing their
1:49:20um strictures and their controls on
1:49:23others is destructive.
1:49:25And I'm going to say something that's
1:49:27probably going to surprise a lot of
1:49:29people, but it shouldn't.
1:49:31I'm probably going to upset a lot of
1:49:33people, but it shouldn't. The whole
1:49:35nutcase thing is exhibit A on someone
1:49:39destructively imposing
1:49:41the their behavior on others, right? Um
1:49:45I don't think we've heard people say
1:49:46that before and a lot of people I think
1:49:48have defended Shannan. She's just
1:49:50defending a child. Those people don't
1:49:52recognize what is unhealthy narcissism.
1:49:58Um
1:50:00By contrast, and again this is quoting
1:50:02from this article, a person with OCD
1:50:05frequently wants their behavior to
1:50:06change and is embarrassed when they
1:50:08impose it on others. So I want to be
1:50:11very clear with this. Someone who only
1:50:13has OCD
1:50:15feels uncomfortable with it and is
1:50:18embarrassed by it. But someone with OCD
1:50:20and narcissism
1:50:22isn't.
1:50:29And this is why TCRS is opposed to
1:50:32labels, labels like monster, evil,
1:50:36psychopath, sociopath, pedophile,
1:50:40and narcissist narcissist. Um just to
1:50:44give you an example in the
1:50:47in the JonBenét Ramsey case, they talk
1:50:49about a pedophile
1:50:51intruder whatever.
1:50:53I'll tell you why it's a destructive and
1:50:55not helpful label. As soon as you talk
1:50:59about a pedophile in children
1:51:03um in the in the homicides of children
1:51:05or the the
1:51:08assaults of children, you immediately
1:51:10imply that the pedophile can only be an
1:51:12adult. In other words,
1:51:14um
1:51:15a child that has been sexually abused
1:51:18can only be sexually abused by
1:51:22a pedophile, well it's an adult. And
1:51:24that's not the case.
1:51:26Children are more often when when
1:51:28they're when they're sexually assaulted
1:51:30are more often
1:51:31um abused by someone that's either their
1:51:34age or but or or of a similar age. So
1:51:39young children or
1:51:41um young adults, um but as soon as you
1:51:45say pedophile, you tend to think of an
1:51:46adult, especially an older adult.
1:51:49Um as soon as we bring in labels, we
1:51:51taking away from the cases.
1:51:54Um we're taking away the merits of their
1:51:57own cases and we dehumanize the people
1:52:00in them.
1:52:01And we also dehumanize ourselves. We
1:52:04stand from the outside and we name call
1:52:06into these cases and we think we're very
1:52:09clever and we think we've
1:52:11sort of masters of the universe. We've
1:52:13built a fortress of information through
1:52:15this one single term we're using.
1:52:18Um
1:52:19But what labels do is they dissociate
1:52:21and they separate.
1:52:23Um
1:52:25According to Dr. Phil, um you you can't
1:52:28make sense of the Chris Watts case. You
1:52:31can.
1:52:32TCRS says you can and the nine books
1:52:35I've written have done that. The first
1:52:37book did that.
1:52:39Um if you're going to reduce the case to
1:52:41labels, well then find the right one.
1:52:44And um
1:52:47that's simplistic. It's simplistic to
1:52:49find a label,
1:52:51but eventually, after all the research,
1:52:54after you've studied the case in detail,
1:52:58after you've researched the case from
1:53:02one end to the other,
1:53:04that's when you can begin to simplify
1:53:05the case.
1:53:07It's important to do this at the end,
1:53:09not the beginning.
1:53:10If you want to discuss the psychology of
1:53:13the case in an authentic way, then we
1:53:15don't need Chris Watts case in an
1:53:17authentic way.
1:53:21You don't discuss the narcissism aspect.
1:53:26You discuss
1:53:28introversion.
1:54:03[music]

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